Speaker1: BulletproofRadio.Astateofhighperformance.

DaveAsprey: Today'sepisodeisamazing,andyoutotallywanttolistentotheentireepisode,allthewaythroughtotheend.Itiswithoneofthegreatluminariesinthefieldoftranspersonalpsychology,aguywhopioneeredtheuseofpsychedelicsforpersonaldevelopment,andoneoftheworld'sleadingexpertsonnon-ordinarystatesofconsciousness.You'lllearnthestoryofhowLSDwaslegal,howitgotbanned,andevenhowgovernmentsattemptedtomisuseit.You'lllearnhowyoumightconsidernotusingahallucinogenlikethat,andreplacingitinsteadwithsomepowerfulbreathingexercisesthatyouuseinagroupsetting.You'lllearnabouthowthecircumstancesofyourbirthcanimpactthecourseofyourlife,andhowthattraumacanstickaround.

You'llevenlearnwhatoneoftheleadersinthefieldthinksabouthowpsychedelicdrugsareusedtoday,whyyoushouldn'tusethem,andmaybewhyyoumightwantto,andallthedifferentmodalitiesthatarenowavailabletoyoutoreachaflowstateortranscendentstateofhighperformance.ThisisoneofthecoolestinterviewsI'veeverdone.You'retotallygoingtowanttohearthewholething.Thisisachancetohearfromsomeonewho'sspentalmost100yearslearningandgrowingandchangingtheworld.It'sjustanincrediblehonortobeabletolistentoit,andIhopeyouenjoyit.

You'relisteningtoBulletproofRadiowithDaveAsprey.ThisCoolFactoftheDayisreallycool,becauseateamatGeorgetownfiguredoutthattheycouldusesomethingcalledTranscranialDirectCurrentStimulation,orTDCS,tostimulateanareaofthebrainassociatedwithcreativity.Theydidthiswhiletheyweregivingtestsubjectsverbalcuestothinkmorecreatively.Previousresearchershadshownthatcreativitywasastatictraitthatyoucouldn'thack.However,theseguysdidhackit.Nowweknowthatcreativityisadynamicstatethatchangesquicklyinanindividual.Thatmeansyoucanputyourthinkingcapon,literally,anditjustmighthaveelectrodes.

Fromapersonalperspective,youcanlearntoturnyourcreativestatesonandoff.It'saquestionofsetandsetting.Also,justlearninghowtotapintothatpartofyourbrain.That'ssomethingthatI'vetrainedveryextensivelymyself.It'sreally,reallypaidofftobeabletosay,"Holdonasecond.Letmefindthatcreativestate."Justlikeyoucouldfindsomeothercalmormeditationstate.Prettycool,though,toseeyoucandoitwiththeelectricity,whichissomethingIalsoliketoputintomybrain.

Today'sguestontheshowisaluminaryinhisfield,andkindofalegend.HisnameisDr.StanislavGrof.I'mrecordingthisepisodelive,infrontofarelativelylargeaudience,attheBulletproofBeUnlimitedeventintheBayArea.Dr.Grof,you'llhearduringthisepisode,isoneofthegreatleadersinthefieldofpsychedelicresearch.He'sbothanMDandaPhD.Hisresearchinthe'60sand

'70s,alongwithhiswife,leadtothecreationofthefieldoftranspersonalpsychology,whichisaschoolofpsychologythatintegratesthespiritualandtranscendentaspectsofthehumanexperience,withtheframeworkofmodernpsychotherapyandpsychologythatwe'reallfamiliarwith.

HeliterallywrotethebookonLSDpsychotherapy.Hisclinicalresearchstartedinthe'60sinMoscow,Czechoslovakia,andJohnsHopkinsUniversity.I'mmentioningCzechoslovakiabecauseitwasn'ttheCzechRepublicbackthen,anditwasn'tSlovakia.Itwasonecountry.Thiswasbeforetheysplit.Hefocusedonthetypesofexperiencethatbecomeavailabletotheaveragepersonwhenthey'reusingthesepowerfulpsychedelicsubstances,includingthingslikepsilocybin,mescaline,DPT,DMT,MDA,andLSD.Sobasically,alaundrylistofthethingsthataremostregulatedandmostfeared.

Itturnsoutheusedthemlegally,withaprescription,asatherapistandasapsychiatrist,andhadprofoundresultswithhispatients.Resultsthatledpeopletounderstandwhatearlychildhoodtraumacandotoadults.Stuffthatyoubarelyrememberdoesaffectthewayyouexperiencereality,andtherearethingsyoucandowithandwithoutsubstancestochangethat.Infact,attheeventhere,theBulletproofBeUnlimitedpersonaldevelopmentevent,weactuallyusedbreathingexercisestoreachsomeofthosesamestates,nosubstancesrequired.

Dr.GrofwaslateraScholar-in-ResidenceattheEsalenInstituteinBigSur,California.That'swhereheandhiswifedevelopedHolotropicBreathwork,whichiswhatwe'reactuallydoingatthisworkshop.It'sacombinationofnon-pharmacologicalself-explorationandpsychotherapy,whereyoudoacceleratedbreathing,evocativemusic,andaspecialformofbodywork.He'stheauthorofover20booksand150articlesandstillteachesothersdespitebeingmorethan90yearsold.HelecturesandleadsHolotropicBreathworkandtranspersonalpsychologyprogramsandworkshopsallovertheworld,andisoneofthegreatmastersofthisschooloftherapy.It'sanincredibleprivilegetohavehimonstage,infrontofanaudience,andtosharehisworkwithyouonBulletproofRadio.

Welcometotheshow,Stan.

StanislavGrof: WhenIstartedpsychiatry,youknow,becauseIwasinterestedinpsychoanalysis,wasactuallywhenIfinishedwhatwouldbehighschool,wecallitgymnasiuminEurope,whichhasadifferentmeaninghere.Iwantedtogointoanimatedmovies,andIalreadyhadaninterviewIwassupposedtostart,andthenafriendofminecametovisitmeandhehasholdingthisnewbook.Hehadastrangelookinhiseyesandhesaid,"Youhavetoreadthisbook.You'llneverbethesame."IlookedanditwasFreud'sIntroductoryLecturesonPsychoanalysis.

IknewverylittleaboutFreud,becauseitwassomethingthatwasforbiddenundertheNazis,allthepsychoanalyticbookswereburned.Andthenwehad

threeyearsoffreedom,andthenthecommunistscame,andFreudwasagainin[inaudible].Capitalistregimecreatedpsychoanalysistodiscredittherevolution,tryingtoblameitOedipuscomplex.SoIknewonlywhattheytaughtusintheseMarxistclassesthathewasapansexualisttryingtoexplaineverythingfromrepressedsexual[inaudible].Sothatwaskindofinterestingtostartwith.

DaveAsprey: Wasn'tthatkindoftruethrough?

StanislavGrof: Kindof,yeah.SoIstartedreadingitandreallygotintoasimilarkindofstatethatmyfriendwasin.Ireadthroughthenight,andthenfinishedreading,andIdecidedwithintwodaysthatIdroppedtheanimatedmovies,andI'mgoingtobecomeapsychoanalyst.

DaveAsprey: Justinonenight.

StanislavGrof: Whichrequiredenrollinginamedicalschool.YouhavetohaveanMDorPhDdegreeinEuropetobeapsychoanalyst.ThenIalsostartedmypersonaltraininganalysis,andasIwasgettingdeeperintopsychoanalysisIwasgettingincreasinglydisappointed.Initiallynotbythetheory,butbythepractice.Irealizedhowlongittakes.Howmuchmoney,howmuchtimeittakes,howmuchenergy.Irealizedthattheresultswerenotexactlybreathtaking.Istartedkindofnostalgicallythinkingabouttheanimatedmovies,Ishouldneverhavestartedthisprofession.

ThenIwasworkingatthepsychiatricclinicinPrague,andwegotaboxfromSandozpharmaceuticalcompanySwitzerlandfullofampules.Weopenedit,itwasverymysteriousit'sLSD-25,anditcamewithaletterdescribingthisisanewinvestigationalsubstancediscoveredbasicallybyaccidentbyDr.Hofmannworkingwithalkaloidsandheactuallyintoxicatedhimselfashewasdoingthis.Itseemedonthebasisofsomepilotstudythatthiswouldbesomethinginterestingforpsychiatristsandpsychologists.Wouldyouliketodothisworkandletusknowifthere'sanylegitimateuseforitinpsychiatry.

Theyactuallygaveseveralsuggestions.Onewasthatthiscouldcreateexperimentalpsychosis,andwecouldstudypeoplebefore,during,andafter,andgetinsightsintowhatmightbehappeninginnaturallyoccurringpsychosis.Thesecondsuggestionfromthepilotstudywasmaybethiscouldbeusedasatherapeuticagent.Buttherewasathirdlittlenotethatkindofbecamemydestiny,orkarma,ifyouwant.Itsaidmaybethiscouldbeusedasakindofunconventionaleducationaltool.Psychiatrists,psychologists,nurses,studentswhohaveexperienceofmaybespendingsixtoeighthoursinthekindofworldthatsomeoftheirpatientsseemtobelivingin.Asaresulttheywillbeabletounderstandthembetter,beabletocommunicatewiththembetter,andhopefullygetbetterresults.Whichwassorelyneeded.

Atthattimepsychiatrywasmedieval.Theywereusingelectroshock,theywereusing[inaudible]shock,wewereusinginsulin,coma,therewasevenprefrontal

lobotomywasdoneatthetime.Igotveryexcited,itwaslikeapossibilityofawholenewapproach,soIvolunteered,andIhadanexperiencethatjusttransformedmecompletely.Withinsixhoursprofessionallysentmeinacompletelydifferentdirection.Itwascombinedactually,mypreceptorwasveryinterestedinelectroencephalography,soeverybodyhadtohaveEEGbefore,during,andafter.Hewasspecificallyinterestedinwhat'scalleddrivingthebrainwavesbyexposingpeopletoaverypowerfulstroboscopiclightanddifferentfrequency,andpickingupifthesuboccipitalbrainwavespickupthefrequency.Ihadtoagreealsotohavemybrainwavesdriveninthemiddleofthisexperiment.

DaveAsprey: Wow.Wheredidtheydrivethem?

StanislavGrof: Itwaslikebetweenthethirdandthefourthhourwhenitwasculminating,thisresearchassistantcameandsaiditwastimetodrivethebrainwaves.Sosheputmeintothislittlecell,andIliedownandsheputelectrodesonmyhead.Thenbroughtthisgiganticstrobeandturnediton.TheninthenextmomenttherewaslightlikeIhadneverseen,Icouldn'tevenimaginesomethinglikethatexisted.AtthetimeIthoughtthisiswhatitmusthavebeenlikeinHiroshimawhenthisthingwentoff.TodayIthinkitwasmorelikethedharmakaya,theprimaryclearlightfromtheTibetanBookoftheDead,thatwe'resupposedtoseeatthetimewhenwedie.

Myconsciousnesswascatapultedoutofmybody.Isortofsomehowceasedtoexist,Ifeltextinguished,butIhadafeelingthatIbecameeverythingtherewas.Thisistheparadoxesfrommysticalexperiences.Youbecomenothing,andbybecomingnothingyoubecomeeverything.ThenIhadsomeexperiencecomingbackthatIbecamepartoftheastronomicaluniverse.Asthiswashappeningshewasfollowingthescientificprotocol,startingfromtwofrequenciespersecond,takingitto60,back,leavingitinthealpharangeandthedeltarange,thetarange.Thenturnitoffandthenmyuniversestartedshrinkingagain,andthenIfoundtheplanet,IfoundPrague,Ifoundtheclinicandfoundmybody.

Buttherewasamajorproblem,becauseIdidn'tknowhowtoalignmyconsciousness.Myconsciousnesswasseparatefrommybody.Icouldn'tfigureouthowtogetthosetwotogether.Atthatpointitwasabsolutelycleartomethatwhattheytaughtmeattheuniversitywasabsolutenonsensethatsomethinglikeconsciousnesscanbecreatedaneurophysiologicalprocessthat'sinthebrain.SoIlandedinawonderfulplace.Mybrotherwasactuallyfouryearsyounger,hewasinamedicalschooltoo,andsohewasmysitter.Wehadawonderful,wonderfuleveningthen,andIwasvery,veryimpressed.Iwasalreadystuckwithpsychiatry.IfeltifI'minpsychiatrythisisbyfarthemostinterestingthingIcandowithmylife.

Thestudyofthesestatesbecame,likeIsay,myprofession,myvocation,mypassion.For60yearsIhavedoneverylittlethatwouldnotbeinonewayoranotherrelatedtothesenon-ordinarystates.

DaveAsprey: Soonepowerfulexperiencechangedthedirectionforyou?

StanislavGrof: How...

DaveAsprey: I'mjustsayingthatnight,thatonetimeyoutriedit,changedyourentirecareer,thewholepathofyourlife?

StanislavGrof: WellIwasgoingtobecomeapsychoanalyst,andthensuddenlyIbecameinterestedinconsciousness.Iactuallybecameinterestedinaparticularimportantsubgroup,largesubgroup,ofthesenon-ordinarystates,whichhavehealing,transformative,heuristic,H-E-U-R,asasourceofnewinformation.Alsoevolutionarypotential.

DaveAsprey: Whatdoyoumeanbyevolutionarypotential?

StanislavGrof: Ibelieveifwehadresponsibleworkwiththesesubstanceswewouldbecomeadifferentspecies.Youwouldn'tseewhatyouseeinthetelevisionthesedays.Thisismassinsanity.

DaveAsprey: SoeveryoneonCNNshouldtakeacid?

StanislavGrof: CNNis[inaudible]words.I'mserious,I'veseeninpeoplewhodiditresponsibly,transformationthatwouldcreateadifferentspecies.

DaveAsprey: We'regoingtoadjustyourmic.

StanislavGrof: Peopleforwhomviolenceisnotanacceptableformofsolvingconflict,peoplewhoareawareofthefactthatwearedeeplyembeddedinnature,thatwecannotdestroynaturewithoutdestroyingourselves.Peoplewhofeellikeglobalcitizens,ratherthanbeingfirstCzechsorRussians,orAmericans.Peoplewhoareforinternationalpeace.Peopledevelopspiritualitywhichisecumenical,whichisuniversal,whichisallembracing,allinclusive.It'snotorganizedreligionwhichunitesacertaingroupofpeopleandputsitagainstanother,youknow,we'reChristians,you'rePagans,we'reMuslims,you'reJews.

It'ssomethingthat'sasourceofbloodshed.OrevenwithinorganizedreligionshundredsofyearsofbloodshedbetweenCatholicsandProtestants,andSunnisand[inaudible].It'snotthatreligionsdidn'thelptheplanetwhereweare,butthiskindofmysticalspiritualityisfindingmysticalbranchesinpeoplewhohavereallyseriousspiritualpracticethatcouldchangewhereweare.

DaveAsprey: Wetalkaboutnon-ordinarystatesofconsciousness,iftheybecomeordinarythatwouldcertainlydrivethechangeofthespecies,butthenwhathappenstotheordinarystatesofconsciousnesswehavetoday?Ifeveryonewaswalkingaround,I'mexaggeratinghere,butwalkingaroundinthesealteredspiritualstates,arethingsgoingtowork?

StanislavGrof: No,that'snotthepoint.Thenon-ordinarystateistransformative,andthenyouhavetogroundit.Youhavetogoback,youhavetogetazipcodeandaplacetostay.Thiswastheproblemwiththehippiesofcourseinthe'60s.Thiswasanunbalancedwayofusingthis.Butno,it'snotenoughtogoand[inaudible]andstaythere.TheexperiencecanbetransformativeandthenIbelieveitdoesn'thaveanyvalueunlessitchangesthewayyouareintheworld.

DaveAsprey: Sotheideaisbyintroducingpeopletothefactthatthesestatesarepossible,andpossiblethroughbreathing,throughHolotropicBreathwork,orthroughavarietyofwaysyoumightgetthere,there'smanyspiritualpractices.Thatthatoneexperiencechangesthewayyouseetheworld.Sowhenyou'rebacktoyourordinarystateofrealityyouactdifferently.

StanislavGrof: Thetransformationtakesmorethanonesession,butcertainlyit'saway,andwhat'sveryinterestingisthatalotofpeople,increasingnumbersofpeopleitseems,aregoingintothesestatesfor[inaudible].Ofcourse,letmesayImentionedthatIwasinterestedinaspecialsub-categoryoftheseexperiencesthathavethehealingandthetransformativepotential.Thoseareexperiencesliketheshaman'sexperienceispartoftheinitiatoryjourney.Ortheyuseintheirworkwithclients,thisiswhatthenativeculturesexperienceintherightsofpassage.Thisiswhattheinitiatesexperienceintheancientmysteriesofdeathandrebirth.

WithwhatIcallthetechnologiesofsacredthatweredevelopedinsomeofthegreatreligions.Thedifferenttypesofyoga,theHindupractices,thedifferentschoolsofBuddhism,Daoism,Christianmysticism,Sufism,andsoon.Thosearevery,veryimportantexperiences.Butwedon'thaveacategoryofamysticalexperienceinpsychiatry,spiritualexperience.Everybodywhowouldhaveaspiritualexperienceandhassomeproblemswithit,getstranquilizersandishospitalizedandgetsadiagnosis.SomylatewifeChristinaandIdevelopedaconceptofspiritualemergency,crisisofspiritualopening.Peoplewhohavespontaneousexperienceslikethis,whichcanbehealing,whichcanbetransformative,butaremisdiagnosed.

Peoplearebasicallypunishedforthem.Soasthesituationintheworldisgettingworseandworse,moreandmorepeoplearegoingintothesespontaneouskindofexperiences,andwedon'thaveasupportivesystemthatwillusethehealingpotential,thetransformativepotentialofthesestates.Again,wetranquilizeandhospitalizethewrongpeople.

DaveAsprey: Atthesametimethatyouwerestartinginresearch,it'sprettywelldocumented,theUSgovernmentandprobablytheRussiansaswell,werelookingatusingLSDandvariousothersubstancestogaincontrolofpeople'smind.Therearepeoplewhosayifyouusethestuffyoubecomemorevulnerable,youcouldbemind-washed,itcouldbedangerous.Whatdoyousaytothatwholesetofdiscussions?

StanislavGrof: PsychedelicsubstanceslikeLSDaretools.What'sgoingtohappendependsonwhatwecallcertainsetting.Whodoesittowhom,underwhatcircumstances,forwhatkindofpurpose.Somehowwronglyeverythingthat[inaudible]goodandbadthathappenedwithLSDwasattributedtothedrugitself.Youcanimagineadiscussionaboutaknife.Isthisknifeaterriblydangerousthingorisitausefulthing?YouwouldhaveadiscussionwhereoneofthepeoplewhodiscussitisthechiefofNewYorkpolicewhotalksaboutthenumberofmurdersthatwerecommittedsomewhereinbacklanesinNewYorkCity.Thesurgeongeneralwillsay,"Waitaminute,ifyouhavetherightkindoftraining,youcandogreatthingswithaknife."Therewouldbeahousewifewhowouldsay,"It'sawonderfultoolforcuttingsalamiorvegetables."

DaveAsprey: Orbutter.

StanislavGrof: Anartistwillsay,"Iuseitallthetimeinclaysculptures."Sowewouldunderstandthatwe'renottalkingtheknifeit'sbadorgood,it'saboutwaysofusingitinagoodwayorinabadway.

DaveAsprey: SoLSD-

StanislavGrof: Yousee,therearewrongwaysofusingpsychedelics,Iwouldnotdoraves,forexample,wherepeopledon'tknowwhattheyaretaking,theyareexposing,orthere'ssomethingillegalthatthepolicecancomeatanypoint.That'sminimizingsomehowthetremendousbenefitstheycouldhave,andmaximizingtherisks.Sothosearewrongways.Thenthereareviciousways,thishasbeenexploredbythemilitaryofallcountries,butsecretservices.CIAhadthisproblem,MKUltra,whentheywerehiringprostitutesandaskthemtoputLSDintothecokeandtheywerefilmingitthroughone-wayscreens,andtryingtolearnhowtheycandiscreditforeigndiplomatsorpoliticiansandstuff.Theywerethinkingaboutthisisextremelypowerfulsubstance,millionthsofagramareveryeffective.Putitinthewatersupplyofacity,asachemicalweapon,oruseitinaerosolsandsoon.

DaveAsprey: Wow,I'mgladtheydidn'tdothat.

StanislavGrof: Theindustrialcivilizationhasjustabusedjustabouteverything.Nuclearenergy,lasers,rockets,biology,microbiology.Sohowcouldwehandlereasonablypsychedelics?It'sapowerfultool,youhavetohavematurepeopleusingit.

DaveAsprey: Verywellsaid.

StanislavGrof: Ithasincredibleinfluenceoncreativity,thisisnowbecomingveryclear.Creativitybothartistic,butalsostimulatinglet'ssayscientificinsights.Forexample,FrancisCrickadmittedthattakingLSDhelpedhimtocreatethemoleculeofDNA.[inaudible]wasanotheronewhodidthepolymerasechainreaction,[inaudible]NobelPrizefor...It'squitespecificthatthiswasduetothisprocess,butDouglasEngelbartwhodevelopedthemouse,describedquitein

detailhowhewasusingLSDtostimulatehiscreativity.Micro-dosingisnowrampantinSiliconValley,soit'swell-known.Thereareallkindsofgooduses,buttherearealsodangerouspotentialsinpsychedelics.

DaveAsprey: Howdidyoufeelwhenitbecameillegal?

StanislavGrof: Ithoughtitwastragic.Ithoughtpsychiatrylostthebestthingthathaseverhappened.

DaveAsprey: Howlongdidittakeyoutofindanotherwaywithbreathing?

StanislavGrof: WellIwasverylucky,IcametotheUnitedStatesonascholarship.Thiswas'67,andIjoinedthelastsurvivingofficialpsychedelicprojectwhenWalterPahnkedisappearedintheAtlanticOceanduringdiving.Youknowthatstory?

DaveAsprey: Dotellforouraudience.

StanislavGrof: Yeah,hewentscubadivinganddisappeared,theyneverfoundthebodyortheequipment,soIinheritedit,andwasactuallyheadingthatresearchforawhile.

DaveAsprey: WasthisHarvard?Idon'trememberwhatuniversitythiswas.Wherewashedoingtheresearchwhenhedisappeared?Idon'tremember.

StanislavGrof: HewasonourstaffintheMaryland[inaudible].

DaveAsprey: Oh,inMaryland,okaycool,goit.Andwentdivingand...

StanislavGrof: Hedidthisfamousexperiment,GoodFridayexperiment.HedidintheMarshChapelatHarvard.

DaveAsprey: Talkaboutthis,it'sfamousamongstpeoplewhoarefans,butIthinkalotoflistenersprobablyhaven'theardthestory.

StanislavGrof: GoodFriday?

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

StanislavGrof: WelltherewasasituationwhereheknewthatpsychedelicLSD,psilocybin,couldinducewhatpeopleconsideredmysticalexperiences.SohedesignedandexperimentwhereonGoodFridayduringthedivineservicehegotagroupofstudentsoftheologyandhalfofthemgotpsilocybin,halfofthemgotwhatwasconsideredplacebo.Veryproblematic,becauseitwasniacinthatgivesyouhotflashesandmakesyouitch.Soafteranhoureverybodywhohadwhat.Somepeoplegot[inaudible],somepeoplewerescratching.

DaveAsprey: Notverydouble-blind.

StanislavGrof: Hedevelopedavery,veryinterestinginstrumentwherehecouldcomparethat,andhefoundoutthathecouldn'tdistinguishtheexperiencesthatpeoplehadwithpsilocybinfromwhatyoufindinspiritualliteratures.ThiswasactuallyrepeatedseveralyearsagobyJohnsHopkins,very,verywellplannedstudy,methodologicallywell.Wheretheywereprovingthatpsilocybincanactuallyinducemysticalexperiences,whichissomethingextremelyimportantbecausewehavefreedomofreligioninthiscountry,soit'ssomethingaboutanylegislationthatblockspeoplefromdoingit.Wealsoknowthatforcenturiesthishasbeenusedbynativeculturewithnoquestionthatthisisatool,aritual,spiritualtool.

DaveAsprey: SoisBurningManagoodthingorabadthing?

StanislavGrof: Wellyouknow,that'soneofthewildwaysofusingpsychedelics.Onthepositiveside,therearealotofquiteexperiencedpeoplewhocanhelpsomeofthemwhowouldbeintrouble.It'sasomewhatmorereceptiveenvironmentthanpeoplewouldhavesomewhereinanopensquareinabigcity.

DaveAsprey: That'sasortofa...

StanislavGrof: It'sanamazingphenomenon,yes.

DaveAsprey: ...sortofayesandanoatthesametime,Iwouldsay.

StanislavGrof: Idon'tthinkyougetthebestoutpsychedelicdoingitthere,but...

DaveAsprey: It'sbetterthanDisneyLand.

StanislavGrof: Exactly.Theyhavecertainly...Theyareaware...People[inaudible]experience,they'reawarewhatcanhappenandtheyhavesystemsofsupportforpeoplewhogetintotrouble.

DaveAsprey: IoncecampedatBurningMannexttoagroupofgovernmentphysicians,very,veryhigh-endones.Oneoftheguyswho'dspentmany,manyyearsworkingwithhallucinogenscouldliterallylookatpeopledancingandsay,"MDMA,MDMA,meth,acid,mushrooms."Justbyhowyoudanced,andhewastheretohelp,right?They'redefinitelycanbebadexperiencesinaplacelikethat,butIwouldsayit'ssaferthanalotofplaces.Butclearlyit'sanuncomfortableplace,andIknowpeoplewho'vehadnegativeexperiencesaswell.Aretherepeople...Therearepeoplewhoarelisteningtothiswhoarethinking,allright,maybeIshouldtrythisonetime.Iwanttotrythisonetime.Shouldthey?Howdoyouknow?

StanislavGrof: Idon'twanttobeapiedpiperresponsiblefor-

DaveAsprey: No,that'swhyI'masking.

StanislavGrof: Thisisabigthing,whenyoudecidetodosomethinglikethat.Weneverevertrytoadvertiseit,wewerealwaysbeingavailableforpeoplewhowantedtheexperience,butIwouldnevertellpeopletheyshoulddoit.

DaveAsprey: It'snotaboutashouldorashouldn't,I'masking...Peoplehearthisandgo,"Allright,I'vebeeninterested,maybeIdowanttotrythis."HowdotheygoaboutthethoughtprocesstodecideIwanttotakethelegalrisk,Iwanttotakethepersonalrisk,Iwanttotakethepsychiatricrisk.Howwouldyouadvisesomeonetogothroughthethoughtprocessofdecidingwhethertheywanttodothis?

StanislavGrof: Wellhavemoney,youprobablyhavemoney,yougotoPeru,yougoto-

DaveAsprey: That'swhatIdidthefirsttime.

StanislavGrof: ...Mexico,yougotoBrazil,it'slegal.YoucanhaveAyahuascawithan[inaudible]peopleonly[inaudible].You'relegal,youknowwhatyou'retaking,andhopefullywillhavesomebodyexperiencedguidingyou.

DaveAsprey: MyfirsttimewasAyahuascainPeruactuallyabout20yearsago,beforeitwascool,Iguess.NowIthinkit'salittlebitdangeroustogotoPeru,becauseyougetoffattheairportandthere'sguysholdingupsignsthatthey'lldoit.Thesearenotthingsthatyouwanttodowithsomeonewhodoesn'tknowwhatthey'redoing,becausethey'renotwithoutrisk.

StanislavGrof: Yeah,youhavetobeverycareful,youhavetodosomesortofexplorationtoknowthatthesearedecentpeople,andexperiencedpeople.

DaveAsprey: Therearelotsofteenagerswhofeelattractedtoallsortsofthingstheyshouldn'tdo,includingdrugslikethis.Isthereaminimumageofsafety?Ican'timaginekidsdoingthisstuff,butIalsoknow-

StanislavGrof: Thereisawholetradition,culturaltradition,thereareritesofpassage.Thisissomethingthatwas...ThetermwascoinedbyArnoldvanGennep,withaG-E-N-N-E-P,whowasananthropologistandstudiednativecultures.Theyallhavethesewhattheycallritesofpassagewherepeopleinregularintervals,usuallyatthetimeofsomeimportantbiologicalorsocialtransitions,theyhavethesepowerfulexperiences.Eitherwithpsychedelics,orwithsomepowerfulnon-drugmethods.

DaveAsprey: Fasting.

StanislavGrof: Somehowalltheculturesdecidedindependentlythatthetimeofpubertywasthetimeforgoingthroughsomeverypowerfultransformativeexperience.Ithinktheteenagersaretuningintothetradition,yousee?Thereisthatneedfor...It'salsoaquestionofindividuation.Ifyouseewhatwashappeningintheserightsofpassage,it'spowerfultechnology.The[inaudible]peoplewereexperiencingdeath/rebirthexperiences,psycho-spiritualdeath/rebirth.Thiswas

interpretedasdyingintheoldrole,andbeingbornintothenew.Soyoudieasaboyorasagirl,andnowyouareanadultonceyou'vebeenthroughthis.Nobodydarestotreatyouasachild,notlikeourculturewhereyoucanbe50andgotoyourparentsandtheystillmakingdecisionwhatkindofcaryoushouldbuy,andwhoyoushouldmeet.

Thenyouarereallyamemberofthetribewithallthedutiesandalltheresponsibility.Ifyoulookatthedeeppsychodynamicofit,thedeath/rebirthexperienceisdrawingonwhatIcalltheperinatallevel,thememoriesofbiologicalbirth.Weareentangledintheunconsciouswiththematernalorganism.Wespentninemonthstotaldependency,andthenweweretakenforthisrollercoasterofbirth.Thenweemergeintolongdependencyasbeingnursed,andtoddlers,andsoon.Soitcreatesakindofsenseofdeepemotionalkindofadependencyandentanglement.Sogoingthroughthedeath/rebirthexperienceyoubringthatmemoryintoconsciousnessandyoucompletethatprocess.Youreallyseparatefromyourmother.Youbecomeanadultinadifferentway.

Thewesterncultureisreallyacultureofadolescence.IfyoulookwhatkindofHollywoodmoviesarebeingmade,howpeoplebehaveinrelationtoweaponsandsolvingofpoliticalproblemsandsoon,it'smoreliketoddlerswhoaregettingtheseincrediblypowerfulweaponstoplaywith.100,000people,surewe'llstraightenthemup.

DaveAsprey: It'snotaprettything.DoyouthinkthatHolotropicbreathingcanserveasthatriteofpassageforteenagers?

StanislavGrof: Definitely.Imeanithasallthoseelements.Similarthingshavebeenused,breathhasbeenusedasoneoftheways.Thereareothers.TheywentoutoftheirwaytocreatesafeandeffectivewaysofcreatingtheseHolotropicstates.Thisinvolvesfasting,sleepdeprivation,stayinthemountainsonavisionquest,ordesert,orintheArcticinacave.Itinvolvestheallnightdancing,drumming.

DaveAsprey: IthinkI'vedoneallthosethings.

StanislavGrof: Firewalking.

DaveAsprey: Yeah,didthatwithTonyRobbinsacoupleofweeksago.Thoseareimportant.

StanislavGrof: Sotheyreallyvaluetheseexperiencesenormously,andtheyshouldbecausetheyreallyhavetremendouspotentialinmanydifferentways.

DaveAsprey: So,ritesofpassagearemissing,andIdon'tthinkthatIwouldrecommendthatparentsusesubstancestobringthisaboutinyourkids,forallkindsofreasons.Thatit'snotnecessarywhenthereareeventhingsassimpleas,"You'regoingtospendtwodaysinthatcave,we'llbebackforyou."That'splentyscaryfora13yearold,eveniftheydon'tknowyouhaveawebcamwatchingthem.Thisis

largelymissing.ButyoumentionedsomethingkindofinpassingthatIthinkiscriticallyimportant.Infact,letmepolltheaudience.HowmanyofyouexperiencedsomethingtodowithyourbirthwhenyouweredoingHolotropicbreathing?Justgivemeashowofhands.Roughly20%ofouraudience.ThefirsttimeIdidHolotropicbreathing-

StanislavGrof: Manyofhaditthefirsttime?

Speaker4: Yes.

DaveAsprey: Yeah,soisthatnormal?

StanislavGrof: Soyousee,whenIwasintraininganalysisforsevenyearswheninthefourthyearIwassortoftouchingonsomematerialwhichwerefromthenursingperiodinmydream.Thatwasconsideredreallysuccessfulpsychoanalysiswithpeopleinpsychedelics,orinthe...Yougettobirthsometimesinthefirstsession.

DaveAsprey: Intheveryfirstsession.

StanislavGrof: It'savery,verypowerfulwayofaccessingyourunconscious.

DaveAsprey: It'sinteresting,becauseyoubecomeawareofthesensationsyouhadatthetime.ItwassomethingthatreallyhelpedmeunderstandsomeofthepatternsIhaveinmylifederivedfromvery,veryearlychildhoodexperiences,whichisstillIwouldsaylargelynotacceptedbysomeschoolsofpsychiatry.Certainly,ifItalktomyparentsaboutthat,they'relike,"Youcan'trememberit,thereforeithasnoeffect."Howdoyourespondtothepeoplethatsayithasnobearing?

StanislavGrof: Thatithasno...?

DaveAsprey: Thatthosevery,veryearlychildhoodbirthrelatedthingsjusthavenobearing,they'retooearlytohavehadaneffect.Howdoyourespondtopeoplewhosaythat?

StanislavGrof: Sayitoncemoreexactly.

DaveAsprey: Somepeoplesaywhathappenswhenyouarebornhasnoeffectonyoulaterinlifebecauseyoucan'trememberit.Howdoyourespondtothosepeople?

StanislavGrof: Welllet'slookatthesituation,themedicalprofession,ithasnotbeenacceptedthatbirthisapsycho[inaudible].Whichisbizarre,becausethere'sgeneralagreementactuallythatwhathappensrightafterbirth,nursing,isextremelyimportant.Whatkindofnursingyouhave,whatkindofmotheringyouhave.Evenchildpsychiatristsandobstetriciansaccepttheconceptofbondingthatthelookbetweenthenewbornandthemothercaninfluencethewholerelationship.Nowhowwillitbepossiblethatbirth,thatcouldbe20,30,40

hourswherethisisapotentiallylifethreateningsituation,orapersondiedinthebirthcanal,hadtoberesuscitated,howcomethiswouldnotbeapsycho-trauma?

Icannotrelatetothatkindoflogic.Ofcourse,there'sapowerful...Ithinkwetalkedalittlebitbefore,wehavethismeekkindofpsychologywhereitisaboutnursing,toilettraining,andFreudiananalysis,andthingsthathappenedinchildhoodandsoon.ThenwesuddenlyaresurprisedwhenthereisaHolocaust,orStalin'sarchipelagoorwhathappenedinTibetwhenChinese...Orwhenyouwatchthe...IwatchthetubeandIthinkit'sadifferentspecies.Idon'trelatetowhatthey'redoinginSyriaandsoon.Sowhereisthatcomingfrom?Inmyexperience,it'sthisperinatallevel,there'sthememoriesofhoursofbirthcanalstruggle,vitalstruggle.

Thenthere'sthewholealsoofthedimensionofthepsychethatalsohasnotbeenacceptedbyacademicpsychiatry,whichistheJungian,ofcourse.Very,verypowerfulinsightsaboutthearchetypaldynamicsandsoon,collectiveunconscious.Sothat'swherethesekindsofimpulsescomingfrom.Theyaren'tcomingfromearlychildhood.

DaveAsprey: They'recomingfrombirth,notearlychildhood?

StanislavGrof: Thepost-natalisimportant,butsomeoftheotherthingsareparamountimportant.Ifyouthinkaboutit,let'ssaywewillcompareasituationwhereyoujustbrokeupwithawoman.You'rereally,there'satrauma,it'sonekindoftrauma.Fourofuswilltakeyoutotheswimmingpoolandholdyourheadunderwaterforacoupleminutes,sothatyougetasenseoftheimpactofthetrauma.Withbirthyoucouldhavehoursyoucannotbreathe.You'resqueezedandyouexperiencepainandsoon.Thatisrecordedintheorganism,andthenifyouhadgoodchildhood,goodmothering,itcreatesakindofbufferingzone.

Soit'sdeepthere,andyoumightnotknowaboutitunlessyoudosomething,dosomeexperientialwork,orspiritualpracticeorsomethinglikethat.Thatmaterialisthere,andformanypeople,particularlyiftheyhadbadpost-natalkindofasituation,itstaysthereasaverypowerfulforcethatcreatesnightmaresandthenevenbeyondthatitcaneruptineverydaylifeandcreatepowerfulpsychologicaldisturbances.

DaveAsprey: WhatIfiguredoutwhenIdidHolotropicbreathingincombinationwithbirthregressioninthesameweek,wasthatIcameintotheworld,Ihadthecordwrappedaroundmyneck.SoIwasbasicallygettingchoked,butIdidn'tgetbraindamageoranythinglikethat.ThenassoonasIcameout,I'dalreadybeentraumatizedmorethanaverage,theyputmeinawarmingchamber.Whichmeansimmediatelytakenawayfromthemother,andIactuallyviscerallyrememberthesensationofthis.Justsittingtheregoing,"Great,Idon'tknowwhatjusthappened,butI'mallalone."ThenIsaid,"Youknow,IguessthenI'lljustbealone."Literallydidn'tmakegoodconnectionstopeoplefor30yearsbecauseofstuffthathappensvery,veryearly,likerightatbirth.

WhenIlearnedaboutthatIwaskindofpissedoff,likeIwishsomeonewouldhavetoldmealittleearlier,becauseallthissufferingwassortofunnecessary.Onceyouacknowledgeoryouseeapatternlikethat,youcandosomethingaboutit.

StanislavGrof: Butthefirstthingyouhavetohaveakindoftheorythatalertsyouthatsomethingmightbethere.

DaveAsprey: Thatit'spossible.

StanislavGrof: Ifyouhaveprofessionalpeoplewhoknow,andtheytellyouthatit'sirrelevantbecauseyourcortexwasnotmyelinated,asitiscalled,itwasnotmatureenoughtoregisterbirthandcreateamemoryofbirth.Itwasmatureenoughtoexperiencebonding,soitdidn'tmyelinaseafewminuteafteryouwereborn,it'sstillthesamebrainthatwasthereinthebirthcanal.Unlesswecorrectthiswehaveatotallymisguidedpsychiatry.Wejustdon'thavedecentunderstandingwhatwe'redealingwithemotionalpsychosomaticproblems,andwedon'thaveeffectivewaysofdealingwithit.Weeitherdotalking,orweusejustsuppressionofsymptoms,whichisnottherapy.Increasinglypsychiatryisbecomingfindingwaysofsuppressingsymptoms,andnotdealingwiththereasonsforthesymptoms,theunderlyingproblem.

DaveAsprey: Yourworkhashighlightedhowimportantthepreandperinatalperiodis,becauseyousawthesepatternsinyourpatientsandyoustartedstudyingthis.Ithinkit'sblindinglyobvioustopeoplewholookattheresearchtoday,andithelpedmetowritemyfirstbook,whichisaboutwhatdoyoudoforababyinthewomb,andevenduringbirthtohavekidswhoare...Basicallyhavebetterepigeneticexpression.Theimplicationsofthisarethatweneedtochangehowchildrenareborn.WhatisCsectiondoingtokids?Ifyou'rebornthroughsurgeryversus...

StanislavGrof: WellusuallypeoplesaywhenItalkaboutbirthtrauma,say,"Whydon'twetakeouteverybodywithacesareansection?"It'sjustanothertypeoftrauma.Majortraumaoccurs.I'mvery,veryconcernedaboutwhat'shappeningwithcesareansections.15yearsagoFritjofCapra,RupertSheldrakeandmyselfwereinvitedtoArgentina.Therewasaweekendwhichwasnewapproachestophysics,newapproachestobiology,newapproachestopsychology.Wehadthisfascinatingdiscussion.Therateofcesareanbirthwas75%,threeoutoffourbabiesborncesareansection.Beforewedothat,wewanttoknowwhatkindofimpactthiswillhave.

ThegeneralattitudewhichIwasbroughtupwithinmymedicalstudies,andit'sstilltrueformuchoftheprofession,isthatitdoesn'tmatter.Itdoesn'thavepsychologicalimpact.Youjustwanttodealwiththebodymechanics.Whenthebaby'sbornyoucountthefingers,andcheckthebloodgroups,andsoon.Weusedtoputafewdropsofsomeantibioticintotheeyesincasethemotherhadgonorrhea.

DaveAsprey: That'sstillrequiredbylawinCalifornia.

StanislavGrof: Fine,youknow,whateverelsewashappening,noproblem.Nowit'sdifferent.Youprobablyknowthatthereisnowassociationorprenatal,perinatalpsychologyannualconference.Alsointernationalconferenceswherethere'sameetingofthepeoplewhodothiskindofpsychotherapeuticworkandmidwivesandobstetricians,andtheylearnfromeachother.[crosstalk]discipline.

DaveAsprey: Itwasthefounderofthatgroupwhodidmybirthregression,andledmyfirstHolotropicbreathing,BarbaraFindeisen,probablysomeoneyouknow.

StanislavGrof: BarbaraFindeisenisagreatfriend.ShewasrunningthePocketRanchwhereweweredoingalotoftraining.

DaveAsprey: Thereyougo.

StanislavGrof: She'svery,veryexperienced.

DaveAsprey: Iwasveryfortunate.ShewastheonethatyouguysmighthaveheardmetellthestoryonBulletproofRadiobeforewhereshesaid,"Tellmeaboutyourbirth."Isaid,"Idon'tknow,hospitals,vaginas."Isaid,"AndIhadthecordwrappedaroundmyneck."Shesaid,"Yeah,Ithoughtso."Sheputsupthischartsaying,"Here'sallyourstrengthsandweaknesses."Andmywholepersonality,likeabutterflypinnedtoaboard.I'mlike,"Howcouldyoupossiblyknowthat?"Sheknowsthatbecauseshesaid,"Wellthere'sasciencearoundwhathappenswhenyou'reborn,it'spredictable."SoIwasveryfortunatetohavejustbeenconnectedwithherrightwhenIwasreadytolearnsomemoreandtohearsomethings.

StanislavGrof: She'sawonderful,wonderfullady.

DaveAsprey: Yeah,justagreathumanbeing.SherunssomethingcalledtheSTARFoundation,whichisstilloperating.Itscaresmewhenyoutalkabouttheevolutionofhumanityandall,ifyoulookattheCsectionrate,oryoulookatjustthetypical,verytraumaticbirththatweputpeoplethroughtoday.Youwantpeopletogrowuptobewell-grounded,well-adjustedpeopleifthefirstthingyoudoisyoubasicallybringthemintotheworldandsmacktheminthefaceafewtimesandsay,"There,howaboutthat?"Whichisroughlywhatahospitalbirthlookslikeunfortunatelythesedays,atleastinthewest.It'skindoffrightening.Doyouthinkthatthewaypeoplearebornandhavebeenbornforthepast20or30yearsaffectsglobalpolitics,affects[crosstalk]?

StanislavGrof: Ibelievethatwhathappenedinthe'50s,Ithink,whenobstetriciansstartedusingroutinelyanesthesiaandtwilightsleepandallthosethings,thatitissomehowrelatedtothefactthatwehavethisdrugepidemic.

DaveAsprey: Interesting.

StanislavGrof: Ifyouimaginethere'ssomethingcalledimprinting,whichisknownfromethology,whichisthestudyofanimalinstinctsandstuff.Thethingsthathappenrightafteryou'rebornareextremelypowerfulinfluencesonyourlife.Forexample,therearepeoplelikeKonradLorenzorNikolaasTinbergendoingtheseexperiments.Youhavelittleducklingsandthere'saperiodofabout16hourswhatevermovesaroundbecomesthemother.Soifyouremovethemotherandyouwalkaroundinredrubbershoestheywillfollowrubbershoes,notthemother.TheyactuallyuseditinawonderfulmoviewhichwascalledWingedMigration.Everybodywondered...Hasanybodysawit?

Speaker4: Yeah.

StanislavGrof: There'sincredibleshots,close-upsofbirdsflying.Howdidtheygetthis?Theyimprintedtheselittlebirdsonthisfour-seaterplane,sotheyalwaysfollowingtheplane,wherevertheplanewouldgo.Theseareincrediblystronginfluences.Nowifyou...Let'ssayyouareinthebirthcanal,andit'savery,verydifficultsituation,butthere'sasuccessfulcompletion,itactuallyleavesyouwithakindofcellularimprintsofoptimism.Icandealwithlifeifchallengescomeinthefuture,Ihavedoneitbefore,Icandoitagain.Nowifyoucouldn'tcompleteitsuccessfully,youneededtheforcepsortheplumbers-

DaveAsprey: Suction,yeah.

StanislavGrof: Suctioncupandsoon,thatgivesyouafeelingwehearfrompeople,theysay,Igetinvolvedinprojects,Icanworkintheearlystages,butIlosesomehowconfidencejustbeforethecompletion.Ihavetobringinsomekindofassistanceintoit.Nowifyouareinadifficultsituationthebirthcanal,andsuddenlythesolutioncomeswithadrug,it'sapowerfulimprintingtellingyou,youareintrouble,ifyou'reuncomfortableinthefuture,gofordrugs.Donotstaythereandseeifyoucansomehowresolvethatsituation.Ibelievethatitcreatesagenerationthat'sdependentondrugs.ImeanIhavemedicaltraining,Iknowthatsometimesyouhavetodoit,butthiswasdoneunnecessarily.Italkedtoalotofmotherswhowantedtodelivernaturally,andtheyweresortofbasicallygiventhedrugsanyway.

DaveAsprey: Yeah,there'snodoubtthatdrugscanbenecessary,andCsectioncansavelives,andthere'snothingwrongwithdoingthatwhenit'snecessary.I'mveryconcernedaboutdoingitoptionallybecauseofthethingswejusttalkedabout.There'sevensomethingelsecalledself-attachmentthatwedidwithourkids.Whichyoutalkaboutthoseearlypatterns,andIlookatourbodies,evenourbrainsprimarilyaspatternrecognitionsystems.Wepickuppatternswithmorefidelityaswemature,butwerememberpatterns.Whatwedidwithourchildren,assoonastheywereborn,wesetthemonLana'sstomach,nearthenipples,butnottooclose.Youcanactuallyseeababywho'sminutesold,aslongastheroomiscalmanddarkandpeaceful,itdoesn'tworkifthere's

blinkingmonitors,andfluorescentlightsandstrobelights,andneedlesinyourheeltoseeifyou'rebleeding,orwhateverelse.

Youcanactuallyseethebabywilltastetheamnioticfluidontheirhand,andthenippleswillsmelllikeamnioticfluid,andthebabywillactuallyslowlyfinditsway.It'slikeit’sveryfirstmotormovementistofindfood,andthentheyactuallyattachthemselvestothenipple.Youcanseethislookoftriumphfromalittlebabylike,"Yes!Igotthenipple."Ihopethatdidgoodthings,I'lltellyouwhenmykidsare40.Butthoseexperiencestheydosetuppatternsthatreallymatter.Ithinkjustbyacknowledgingthatitcanmatter,wecanstartstudyingitmore,andwecanstartacknowledgingthisinmedicine.

Nowlet'ssaythatyou'relikeme,andyouhadapretty...Thetechnicaltermisaprettyfuckedupbirth.TherearepeoplewhohavefarworsebirthsthanIdo,andpeoplewhohavemuchbetterones,butIwouldsaynoonegoesthroughthebirthcanalwithoutgettingsmashedalittlebit.Whatdowedoaboutthat?Peoplelistening,peopleintheaudiencehere,howdoyougoaboutresolvingthosetraumas[crosstalk].

StanislavGrof: Wellthey'redifferentthings,ifitmakessense,wearethinkingindividuals.Doesitmakesensethatthehoursinthebirthcanalwouldnotbeapsycho-trauma.

DaveAsprey: Let'sassumeitis,yeah.Ifitisapsycho-trauma,whatdowedoaboutit,giventhatweallhaveit?

StanislavGrof: Werecognizethatwecarrythis,andtherearewaysthatwecangetthere,wecancompleteit.Wecanexperiencetheemotions,wecanreleaseallthepentupenergies.Alotofpeoplecarryenormousamountofblockedenergy.The[inaudible]characterarmorandallthepainsinshouldersandbackandsoon,withoutanykindofmedicalfinding.Nostructural,thesearealljammedenergiesthatwecarry.Allthiscanbe...It'sthesoftware,Imeanit'snegotiable,it'sworkable,untilitstartscreatingsomechanges,likearthriticchanges.Afteryearsoftensioninthejawsyoudeveloprealstructuraldamagetothe[inaudible].Thenit'stoolatetotrytodosomekindofexperientialworkonit.Foryears,whenyou'reyoungyoucanfreeyourjaw,youcanfreeyourshoulder.Youcanfreeyourlumbararea.

DaveAsprey: OneofthewaysofdoingthisisHolotropicbreathing,andsomepeoplewatchingmaynotbefamiliarwiththisatall.YouhaveawebsiteforHolotropicbreathing.

StanislavGrof: Ihaveapersonal[inaudible].

DaveAsprey: What'stheURLtheycouldgoto,tofindoutwhatitis?

StanislavGrof: It'smyfullname,ifyouwanttogothere,StanislavGrof.com.Thereareallkindsof...Manyotherthings,interviewsandpapers,andthere'saccesstoaphoto

gallery,thewholehistoryofTranspersonalmovement,allthemajorcharactersinvolved.

DaveAsprey: Okay,it'sS-T-A-N-I-S-L-A,Stanislav,L-A-V.

StanislavGrof: L-A-V.

DaveAsprey: G-R-O-Fdot...

StanislavGrof: G-R-O-Fdotcom.

DaveAsprey: Dotcom.We'llputthatinthechatfieldBulletproofteamwhoismonitoringthiswilldothat,andit'llbeintheshownotesforyouaswell.

StanislavGrof: Alsobooks,alotofbooks.

DaveAsprey: TheHolotropicUniverseisoneofyourbooks,Ithinkthatexplainedthisreallywell.Ifpeopleweretoreadoneofyourbookstogetanunderstandingofyourlife'swork,whatwouldthetopbookbe?

StanislavGrof: Therearetwobooks,oneiscalledPsychologyoftheFuture.Thisisdeliberatelykindofprovocativetitle.IwaswritingbookslikeBeyondtheBrainandSpiritualEmergency,andit'snotsufficientlyeye-catching,soifyoucallitPsychologyoftheFuturepeoplewillnotice,theywilleithergetexcitedandcurious,ortheygetpissedoffthatyouthinkthatyouknowwhatthepsychologyofthefutureshouldbe.It'scalledPsychologyoftheFuture.Thathaschaptersthateachofthem,ormostofthemhaveabookbehindthem.Soyougetasenseofwhatthecontentis,becausepeoplesayswithFreud,thiskindofresearchtakesyouintomanydifferentareas.Hestartedwithpsychoneurosisandthenhestartedlookingatthepsychopathologyofeverydaylife,andChaucerandthenartandrevolutions.

Sowhenpeoplehaveexperienceslikethisittakesyouintovery,verydifferentarea.Somenewunderstandingofdeath,forexample.Alotofpeoplehavemystical...OnebookiscalledCosmicGame,wherepeopleaskquestionslikewhatisthisuniverselike?Isitreallyjustamaterialsystem,ordoesithavesomekindofblueprint?Isthereasuperiorintelligence?Ifthereissomethinglikegod,whatismyrelationshiptogod,andsoon.Sothere'sawholelotofpeoplewhotravelingandtheygetthesekindofinsightsintophilosophicalquestions,metaphysicalquestions.There'sinsightsintoviolence.

DaveAsprey: IwouldhighlyencourageyoutopickuponeofDr.Grof'sbooks,becausehespentanenormousamountoftimestudyingthesethings.Iwouldsayoneoftheworld'sleadingauthoritiesonthesenon-ordinarystates,andlookingatthemfromawell-grounded,westernmedicalplace,aswellasfromanon-ordinarystate.I'vecertainlylearnedalotfromyourwork.Istillwanttogobacktothequestionthough,ifsomeone'slisteningtothislike,"Ohwow,itturnsout

Iwasbreach,orIhadbirthtrauma.Ijustheardthis,nowIknowthatthatmightexplainwhyI'mpissedoffallthetime,orwhateverelse."Nowthey'resittingtherefeelingprobablykindofangrythatnoonetoldthemthisbefore.What'sthenextstepifyourealizeImayhavebirthtrauma,andImaywanttodosomethingaboutit.What'sthefirstthingthatapersonshoulddowhentheyfigureout,"Allright,Iwanttoworkonthis."

StanislavGrof: Welltherearealotofpossibilities.Iwaslisteningtoalittlebitofyourhistory,andyouarefindingways,allkindsofways.Idon'tknowifyouwouldconsiderituseful,whatyouhavedone.Iwouldthinkso.

DaveAsprey: Itwasterriblyuseful,Ijustwanttooffermoreactionableadvice.Iwaslucky,afriendsaid,"Dave,youshouldgotothisranchplace,andI'mnotgoingtotellyouwhatitis,becauseifItellyou,youwon'tgo."I'mlike,"Let'ssee,Ijustgotoutofareallybadrelationship,Idon'treallyknowwhatelsetodo,butI'mcompletelyunhappyinmycareer,eventhoughI'mreallysuccessful.Ihavetodosomething,soI'vegotnothingtolose."Iwasluckythatafriendsentmetotherightplace.Icouldjustaseasilyhaveprobablyshavedmyheadandjoinedacultorsomething,Ihavenoidea.I'mgladIdidn'tgothatpath.Soforsomeonewho'slisteningandsaying,"Iwantsomeguidance."Isfindingatranspersonalpsychologistagoodideaasaplacetoexplore?

StanislavGrof: Obviously.Ibelieveinexperientialself-explorationandtherapymorethantalkingaboutmyself,whichIhaddoneforsevenyears.

DaveAsprey: Sure.

StanislavGrof: Ifyouaskdid,"Diditchangeyou?"Isaywell,"Ichanged,butsevenyearsisalongtime,theywillchangeanyway."Ilovedeveryminuteofit,Iwasanalyzingmydreams,andeveryslipofmytongueandsoon.Butifyouaskme,"Diditchangeyou?"Iwouldn'tfindanysignificantrelationshipbetweenwhatIwasdoingonthatcouch,andanysignificantchangesinmylife.Ifyouaskme,Iwasalreadyaskedactually,"WhatdidyourLSDsessiondoforyou?"Isaid,"Well,thatwasadifferentstory.Therewasonepersonwalkingintothatroominthemorning,andanotheronewalkingoutintheevening.There'snoquestioninwhatdidthat."There'sasignificantdifferenceinthepower.Ifit'sreallyusedproperly,thesignificantpowerintheefficacyofthoseapproaches.

Itdoesn'thavetobepsychedelic,there'srebirthing,there'stheHolotropicbreathwork,allkindsofotherwaysofworkingwithbreath.Iwouldrecommendgoingto...Onceyougotoaworkshop,yougetasenseofwhatitcoulddo.Butthenifyouwanttoworkwithit,youwouldhavetojoinagroupthat'smeetingregularlyandcontinue.Especiallyagroupthat'sinvolvethesamepeople,atrustdevelopsinthegroupandpeopleactuallysupporteachother.Soyouuseallthathealingenergywhichisinthegroupaswell.

DaveAsprey: OneofthethingsInoticedwhenIlearnedaboutHolotropicbreathing,forpeoplewhoaren'tintheaudience,becauseyouallexperiencedthis,butpeoplelistening.Whathappensifforseveralhoursonepersondoesspecialbreathingexercisesthatputtheminanalteredstateofconsciousness,whileanotherpersonbasicallywatchesoverthemandtakescareofthem,andtheychangeplaces.You'relisteningtomusicthathelpsyoutoseethings,andyougoplacesandyouexperiencethingsthatarenoteasytoputwordsto,butit'sanalteredhealingexperience.Canyoutalkaboutthepsychologyandtheroleofbeingthepersonwho'swatching,orwatchingover,orhelpingsomeonedoingthework,versusbeingthepersondoingthebreathing?What'sthereasonforhavingboth?

StanislavGrof: IspentalotoftimeandalsoChristina,mylatewife,aroundSwamiMuktananda[inaudible]yogabothinIndiaandindifferentplacesintheworldashewastraveling.HeactuallycametoSanFranciscoandhadagroupinthe...Whatisit?AsyoucrossGoldenGateBridgeand[inaudible]thePalaceofFineArt,isit?

DaveAsprey: Yeah,thePalaceofFineArts,right.

StanislavGrof: Thebighallof1,500seatsorso.Allthepsychiatrists,psychologistscametopickthebrainofthisyogi,he'straveled40yearsinIndia.Theysaid,"WhatcouldIdowithmypatients?"Theywantedtechniques.Hesaid,"No,youdon'tunderstand,youworkwithyourself,andthenthesethingswillcomeautomatically."Sopeoplepaidmuchlessattentiontochangingthemselvesthanfindingsomekindoftechnique.Soeachpsychotherapygivesyouadifferenttechnique,butunlessyouchangeyourselfasaninstrument,it'snotgoingtodoverymuch.Ifyoujustlookatthesituation,wehaveanynumberofschools,psychotherapy,eachofthemtellsyousomethingdifferent.There'snounanimity,noagreementastowhatarethemostimportantmotivatingforcesinthepsyche,whysymptomsdevelop,whattheymean,andwhatdoyoudowithyourpatients?Whatkindoftechniqueyouareusing.

Ifyouwanttodotherapyyouflipacoin,youchooseaschool,eachschoolgivesadifferentstorywhat'swrongwithyou,andyou'llbeaskedtodosomethingdifferent.IfIamabeginningpsychiatristIlookatthemarket,andthenoneoftheschoolsstartstalkingtome,likeformeitwasFreud.Wow,thatguyhasgotit,thisiswhereI'mgoingtogetmytraining.ItsaysmoreaboutmethanaboutFreud.Whatisthealternativetothis?Ifyouworkwithnon-ordinaryHolotropicstates,youactivate,youengageaself-healingintelligence.Inotherwords,somethingstartscomingup.Ifyoulookatit,it'sgoingtobejustwhatyouneed.

IfI'mdoingverbaltherapyandIgettofigureoutwhatisrelevant,whatisn'trelevant,I'vegotaproblem,particularlyifIknowsomethingaboutdifferentschools.Iusuallytellakindofanecdote,astoryfrommyownanalysis.Ihadananalystwhowas,Iwanttosayanelderlygentleman,hewasprobablyinhis70s,muchyoungerthanIam,helookedancientatthattime.Mistakewasthathefellasleeponceduringthesession,andyouhadtodosomethingtotrytobringhimbackintotheprocess.Therewereaboutsevenofus,psychologists,

psychiatrists,aboutthesameage.Wetalkedaboutit,andweweremakingjokesandsoon.WecouldalsohaveseminarswhenwewereborrowingbooksbecausetheNazisdestroyedthemandtheCommunists.Sowehadtoborrowbooksfromhislibrary,wewerediscussingcases,stories,andsoon.

Thenoneofusaskedthequestion,justpurelytheoretical,"WhathappensifapsychoanalystfallsasleepifIkeepfreeassociating,doesanalysiscontinue?Istheprocessinterrupted?Doesitrequireareallyawakeandawareanalyst?"Shouldyouberefundedbecausemoneyissoimportantinpsychoanalysis?Hecouldn'tsaythisdoesn'thappen,heknewweknew,sohehadtodosomethingaboutit.Sohesaid,"Yeah,itcanhappen.Sometimesyou'retired,you'rerecoveringfromaflu,youdidn'tsleepenough,yeahitcanhappen."Hesays,"Butifyouareinthisbusinessforalongtime,youfallasleeponlywhenthestuffthat'scomingupisirrelevant.Whensomethingimportantcomesupyouwakeupandyou'rerightthereforyouranalysand."

HewasfromRussia,andhelovedalsoPavlov,theNobelPrizewinningguywho[inaudible]conditionedreflexes,IvanPetrovichPavlov.Pavlovtalkedalotaboutinhibitionofthecortex,andhesaidsometimeswhenyourcortexisinhibitedlikeinsleep,therecanbeawakingpoint.Thatcertainlyistrueinhypnosis,thehypnotistcangetthroughtoyou.Pavlov'sfavoriteexamplewasamotherwhocansleepthroughheavynoises,butwhenherownchildstartsmoaning,shewakesupandshe'srightthereforthebaby.It'sjustlikePavlov'smother,whensomethingimportantcomes,youwakeup,you'rerightthere.WellIthoughtaboutit,andIthought,importantaccordingtowhom?IsthataccordingtoFreud,isaccordingtoReich?IsitaccordingtoFromm?IsitaccordingtoKarenHorney?Allthepeoplewhocreatedthesedifferentschools.

Soifyouwouldbedoingverbaltherapy,theattentionofthetherapistisshapedbytheirspecifictraining,whatisimportant,whatisn'timportant.There'snoagreementintheseschools.SowhathappensinthisHolotropicstateisHolotropicstatecreatesasituationwherethosecontentsinyourunconsciousthathaveastrongemotionalcharge,andtheyarecloseenoughtothethresholdofconsciousness,theyemergeforprocessing.Soit'snotuptometodecidewhatisimportant,whatisimportant.Ihavetoworkwithwhatevercomesupinthisprocess.Wehavetolearntosupporttheprocessthatpeopleare...We'renotthefixersthatarecomingwithabrilliantinterpretation,diagnosis,stufflikethat.It'sbasicallyaprocessofself-healing.

It'safemininemethod,themasculinemethodyoutrytofigureoutwhatishappeningthereandwhatdoIdo?Thisismorelikemidwifery,youarethere,theprocesshasitsownintelligence,andyou'rejustsupportingit,andyouhelpitwhenitgetsstuck.Agoodobstetriciandoesthe[inaudible],whentheyseehowdoIgetthebabyout?Gotherewiththeforcepsandwrestleitout.Thisisaself-healingintelligence.Thisiswhythesestatesthatappeartobe,fromoneperspective,pathological,arereallypowerfulmovementsinthepsychetohealitself,togetridoftraumaticimprint.Thestoryofincarnationcouldbeveryheavy.Peoplecanhaveprenatalproblems,therecouldbeRHincompatibility

wheretheimmunologicalforcesofthemotherareattackingyoualreadyinthewomb.Therecouldbeallkindsoftraumasthatthemotherhas,ifshe'sabusedbyherhusband,orshe'ssick,oremotionallydisturbed.

Thenyouhavethebirthtrauma,andwhateverhappenstopeopleinthenuclearfamily,thereareallkindsofdysfunctionsinfamilies,andsoon.Wecarryalotoftrauma.Sointhesekindsofstatestheorganismistryingtounload,istryingtogetridofthis.Whenyoustartdevelopingsymptomsit'sreallyanopportunity.Somethingishalfwayout.FritzPerlswasdoingit,hewouldaskyou,"Whatdoyoufeelnow?"Youtellhimwhatsymptomyouhave,andthat'swhereyoustart.You'retryingtodosomethingtohelpitout,whichistheoppositeofwhatyoudoinallopathicmedicine,youdosomethingtokeepitdown.[crosstalk]towhichthereisalotofbirthdynamicsinthepsyche,thiswouldbelikewhentheheadofthebabystartscomingoutyousortofpushitback,preventitfromcomingout.

DaveAsprey: It'salotofinformationtoabsorbforsomeonewho'sfirsthearingthisinformation,andsays,"Wow,thisstuffmattersatall."Assumingthattheygotoverthatinitialcredibilitygap,nowwe'resuggestingthattheymightwanttoexplorenon-ordinarystates.Iwouldliketolistsomenon-ordinarystatesthatI'mawareof.Canyoutellmegood,good,bad,good?

StanislavGrof: Okay.

DaveAsprey: Sothisiskindofamenuforpeoplelistening,orpeopleintheaudience,ifyouwantedtoexplorealteredstatesthatmayallowyoutogetintouchwiththevisceralemotionalsideofthingsfromamorefeminineperspectivethanthe,"I'mgoingtothinkmywaythroughthis."TheonethingthatBarbaraFindeisentaughtmewas,"Dave,thosearefeelings,feelingsdon'thaveareason.Youcan'tthinkyourwayoutofafeeling,becausetheydon'tlistentothoughts."Sodrumming,likedrummingcircles,Shamanicdrumming,useful?

StanislavGrof: Yeah,it'sanancient...

DaveAsprey: Allright,Ithinkyou'regoingtosayyestothisone,blinkinglights.

StanislavGrof: MichaelHarnerisaveryclosefriend.

DaveAsprey: MichaelHarner,veryfamousguywhousesdrumming.

StanislavGrof: He'saclosefriend,he'slivinginMillValleywerewedo[inaudible01:10:48].

DaveAsprey: Oh,excellent.

StanislavGrof: Hecametomanyofourmonthlongandotherworkshops.StartedtheFoundationforShamanicStudiesandtrainedalotofpeoplehowtoworkwithShamanictechniques.

DaveAsprey: Beautiful,sowoulddefinitelydothat.Youalreadytalkedaboutfasting,atleastinthecontextofcaves,orjustfastingbyitselffor10dayfasts,isthatusefulmaybe?

StanislavGrof: Definitely.Inspiritualpracticetheytellyouifyouwanttohavespiritualexperienceyouhavelightdiet,oryoufast.Again,alotofpeopleoverdoit,theythinktheywanttomakeitinthislifetime,andpeopledocrazythingswithsleepandwith...Youcanoverdoeverything.Certainlylightdietandfastingisimportant.

DaveAsprey: Okay,wetalkedaboutsleepdeprivation,sostayingupforacoupleofdaysinthecontextofbecomingmoreself-aware,notpartying,mightbehelpful?

StanislavGrof: Well,Ilikesleeptoomuch.IhadgreatdifficultieswhenwereinGanesh[inaudible]intheMuktanandaAshram,thebesttimetomeditateandtofeelgoodisthreeo'clockinthemorning.IalwaysfeltIfeelfinethewayIam,whywould[inaudible]coldmorningtomeditatetofeelgood.Ihaven'tdonemuchofitmyself,sleepdeprivation.

DaveAsprey: Okay.HowaboutVipassana?Likeextendedperiodsofsilence.

StanislavGrof: Great.

DaveAsprey: Great.

StanislavGrof: Again,anothergreatfriend,JackKornfieldwehavedoneover30seven-dayretreatswherewecombineVipassanawithHolotropicbreathwork.

DaveAsprey: Wow,that'sgottobemind-opening.

StanislavGrof: It'slikearetreatwithsilenceandmealsandstuff,andthosearevery,verypowerfultransformativeexperiences.Jackisphenomenal,hissenseofhumor,he'sagreatteacher.Wehadamazingsynchronicity.AbouttwoyearsagoIwenttoChinaforthefirsttimetodothe[inaudible]psychologyanddothebreathwork.WhathappenedsomebodywhoprogrammedmytriptookmetotheBeijingUniversityononeparticularevening,andthenIfoundoutthatsomebodywhowasorganizingJackKornfield'striptriedtoputhimonthesamepodiumonthesameevening.HewasattendingsomeBuddhistconferenceinSingapore,theysaid,"Jackwehaveapossibilityforyoutomakeasidetrip."Sothenfinallywehadtosharethediscussion,Kornfield/Grofdiscussion.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

StanislavGrof: We'venevermetcasuallyinanyothercity,unlessweplannedittogether.OfallplacestomeetinBeijingonthesameevening,wasincrediblesynchronicity.

DaveAsprey: Totallyrandom,right?

StanislavGrof: ThiswasamagicaltimeinChina.TherewasanothersynchronicitywhichwaswhenChristinaandIstartedtheInternationalTranspersonalAssociationwewerelookingforsomekindoflogo.Isaid,"WhatisthisSacredGeometry?"Wecameupwiththenautilusshell.Soonalltheconferences,numberofconferences,alltheprogramandallthecorrespondence,alwaysthenautilusshell.Weweredoingbreathworkin[inaudible],whichisthebirthplaceofConfucius.Oneoftheparticipantscametomeandsaid,"StanIhadadreamaboutyou."Isaid,"Whatdidyoudream."Shesays,"Oh,mygrand-grandmotherappearedinthedreamandshesaidwehaveaverypreciousstoneforgenerationsinourfamily,anditactuallyshouldgotoDr.Grof."Shehadalittlevelvet,bluevelvetbag,andopeneditupanditwasanautilusshell.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

StanislavGrof: Nowthenautilusisamarinemollusk,soitwasfromtheoceanobviously,butitwasfoundonthetopofMountEverest.IstudiedsincetheHimalayasweremade,thewaytheyseeitwasacrashoftectonicplatesandsotheyliftedallthisoceanstothetops,sothey'refindingthesemarinefossilsonthetopof...Theywereall[inaudible]volcanic,sothereareseveraldifferentlayers.Sothisthingisover50millionyearsoldsymbolofthenautilusthatwe'rebringingtranspersonalpsychologytoChina,andherecomesthisnautilusfromthedepthsoftheoceanandthetopofMountEverest.SotheChinesepresstalkabouthowgreatHolotropicbreathworkis,buttheywerejusttotallyblownbythissynchronicity.Weshowedourstationaryandthenjuxtaposedtheimageofthenautilus.

DaveAsprey: Wow.HasHolotropicbreathworktakenoffinChina?

StanislavGrof: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Good.

StanislavGrof: Yeah,theyreallyloveit.Theylovethefreedomofit.Wedon'thaveanyrulesforwhatpeoplecando,whattheycannotdo.Therearecertainthingsthatwedon'tlikeinourworkshops.AlotofpeoplewhenwewereatEsalentookofftheirclothes,whichwasnotabigdealbecausetherewasintegratedbathing,andsoon.IfsomebodydoesitinHyatt,iftherearesomejournaliststhere,thisiswhatpeoplearegoingtoreadabout,somebodytookofftheirclothes.Butotherwise,theonlyruleispeopledon'tdestroyanything,ornobodygetshurt.Therearenootherrules,youjust...Nobehavior,nomanifestationsarecrazyenoughthatwewouldthinkthatit'sinappropriate.We'veseenpowerfulhealinginthemoststrangeways.Peopletalkingintonguesandchantingmantras,andgettingintolotuspositions,orasanas.

DaveAsprey: IcantellyouthefirsttimeIdidthisoneofthewomenintheroom,IheardaboutthisafterwardsbecauseIwasinanalteredstatemyself.Butapparentlysherippedoffallofherclothesanddancednakedtheentiretime,andhada

profoundhealingexperience.Likehey,nojudgmenthere,thatwaswhatsheneededtodo.Stufflikethathappens.

StanislavGrof: That'svery,veryliberating,it'sveryliberatingifyou'repartofaspeciesthathasn'tcometotermswithitsphysiology.LikeJanetJacksonsortofexposedherbreast,itwasforaweekonthetelevision.

DaveAsprey: ItwasaHolotropicinducedwardrobemalfunction.Onthat-

StanislavGrof: PeopleactuallyfoundtheliberatingpartofEsalenwasthenuditythere,feelingcomfortableaboutyourbody.

DaveAsprey: Itcanbereallyimportant.We'recomingupontheendofthisepisodeofBulletproofRadioandthere'saquestionI'veaskedallguestsontheshow,andI'mreallyintriguedtohearwhatyourthoughtsare.Ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowandsaid,"Dr.Grof,basedoneverythingthatyouknow,everythingyou'veexperienced,I'dlikeyoutogivemethreepiecesofadvicethat'llhelpmebeahigherperforminghuman.I'mgoingtobebetterateverythingIdoasahumanbeing,thethreemostimportantthingsIneedtoknow."Whatwouldtheybe?

StanislavGrof: IwouldgowithJunginthefirstplace.Jungsaidthatyouwouldnothaveafulfillinglifeifyourorientationisonlyoutside.Sospendsometimeinsomekindoffocusedself-exploration.HetalkedaboutthefactthatwehavesomethingthathecalledSelf,sortofahigherentity,anotherinstance,writtenwithcapitalS.ThenintheseIwouldsayHolotropicstates,youcannotwithitandgetguidancefromthecollectiveunconscious.Hetalkedabouttheintegration,whatisit?Hedidtheactivemeditation.Littlegeriatricmoment.

DaveAsprey: That'sallright.You'reallowed,anytimeyou'reover80youcan-

StanislavGrof: Somebodycanbeprocessed,individuation.

DaveAsprey: Individuation,okaycool.

StanislavGrof: Individuationprocess.Soyouthenliveyourlifeasasynthesisfromwhatisontheoutsiderespondingtoexternalcircumstances,andthenwhatyougetfrominside.Youknow,youcombineit.Duringthatcombining,whateveryoudointheexternalworldwithsomefocusedself-explorationusingthatwholerangeofmethodsthatwenowhave.Youcanexperimentwiththem,likeyoudo,andthenfindoneofthemmightbeyourway.

DaveAsprey: Okay,sothatwasone.

StanislavGrof: ThenIthinktheotherthingimportantistherecognitionofthedimensionsofthehumanpsyche.Wetalkedaboutittoday,knowingthatwehavetheperinatallevel,thatwehavethetranspersonallevel.Findwaysofconnecting

withit.SpiritualityofthekindthatIwastalkingabout.Thatsortofnon-chauvinistic,non-denominationalmysticalkindofspirituality.Cultivateitanywayyoucan.Ibelievethatenricheslifeenormously.JosephCampbellhadanothergreatone,itwasfollowingyourbliss.Choosesomethingthatreallyworksforyou.Evenifyoumomentarilyarenotgettinganykindofmonetaryorotherkindof[inaudible],juststaythere,pursue,nourishyourself.

Ihavebeenextremelylucky,sincemygraduationIhavebeendoingwhatIwasfascinatedby,interestedin,andIwasalwayssurprisedthattheygavememoneyforit.IwasdoingwhatIwantedtodoanyway.

DaveAsprey: It'sfascinatingthatyougotputinthisdirectionwhenyoureceivedthatboxfromSandozPharmaceuticalsandhadthatexperience,andsaid,"Wow,thisishappening."Whenmybrainwasn'tworking,andIwashavingsomecareerproblemsactuallyasaresultofit,IorderedthefirstbatchofSmartdrugsIeverreceived.Thesewereveryhardtofindinthe1990s.IhadtoorderthemfromEurope,andtheycameinabrown,unmarkedbox,andcostalotofmoney.Iopenedupthesenootropics,andtheveryfirstboxthatcameoutofitwasSandozPharmaceuticals.TheywerethemanufacturersofPiracetam,themedicalgradestuff,whichisasmartdrugI'vetakenfor20years.Thatwasoneofthethingsthatturnedmybrainbackon,enoughthatIcouldlearnallthethingsIknowabouthumanbiologyandpsychologyandeverythingelse.

WhenyoutalkedaboutopeningtheSandozbox,thatjustcamerighttomindbecauseifIhadn'tofhadthatexperience,Icertainlywouldn'tbedoingwhatI'mdoingtoday.It'sprettyprofoundsometimeshowjustalittlethinglikethatcanmakeadifference.You'vemadethoughalotmoreofadifference.Ithinktheworkyou'vedoneinthefieldofpsychologyisn'trecognizedenough.I'mhopingthatbylettingpeopleunderstandjusthowbroad,andhowimportantyourworkishereonBulletproofRadio,thatwecangetafewmorepeopleworkingwithHolotropicbreathing.Andjustunderstandingthatthestuffthathappenedthatyoucan't,oratleastyouthinkyoucan'tremember,mighthavearealimportanteffect.

It'seasiertoworkonthatstufftomakeyourselfhappierandjustbetteroff,thanitistodoalotofotherthingslikesevenyearsonacouch,orafewweekendsofdoingreallyintensespecialbreathing.Youmightfindthatitis,I'mgoingtocallitashortcut,butit'sactuallymuchdeeper,andmaybemoreimpactfulthanyou'reevergoingtogetwiththelongstrugglethatyouotherwisewouldface.

StanislavGrof: Youknow,ratherthangivingonekindofadvice,Iwouldmentionsomethingelse,wedidabout30monthlongsatEsalen.Thenofcourseyouknowthe30seven-dayretreatswithJay.ButpeoplewouldspendamonthatEsalen,everybodydideightHolotropicBreathworksessions,andwewerebringingpeoplelikeFritjofCapra,RupertSheldrake,[inaudible],allthepeople,therisingstarsinthe'60sandsoon,andyogisandshamansandsoon.Thentherewastheintegrated[inaudible]andtherewasalsoalotofbodyworkthatpeople

wouldgetallkindsofTragerandRolfing,andsoon.Butwegetalotoflettersfrompeoplewhosaythatturnedtheirlifearound.Theycangobacktothatpointandtheystartedgoinginadifferentdirectionwhichturnedouttobeveryfulfilling.

It'snotaone-timething,butitwasliketheyexperiencedthings,andthey'renowveryinterestedindifferentkindofbooks.Theywereinterestedingoingtodifferentkindoflectures,anddifferentkindofworkshops.Thenitstartedfromthere,itstartedsnowballing,andsuddenlylifebecamesomethingcompletelydifferent,becameveryfulfillingandinteresting.Somethingthatwasn'ttherebefore.There'scertainproblems,ithastobedoneintandemifyouhaveapartner,becausethiscanalsobreakrelationships.Ifsomebodystartsbecominginterestedreallyintenselyinthespiritualpursuit,andtheotherpersondoesnotandmaybemakesfunofit,andcriticizes,thiscanreallybeenough.It'ssuchanimportantfulfillmentinlifethatpeoplewhodiscovertheywanttohaveit,andwanttohaveapartnerthatwouldsupportthat.

DaveAsprey: I'mhappyyousaidthat,andI'veseenthisoverandover,notnearlyasmuchasprobablyyouhave,butifonepartofacouple,ifoneofthepeoplegoesonaspiritualpathandtheotherpersonisunwillingtoatleastembraceandacceptthat,youcanalmostpredictwhat'sgoingtohappen,they'regoingtosplitup.

StanislavGrof: Ontheotherhand,ifbothofthemdoit,thatcanjustbringtherelationshiptowholeotherlevel.

DaveAsprey: Yeah,it'ssomethingyouhavetodotogether,butifyourpartnerwon't,quote,letyoudoit,youneedtoevaluatewhythatisanyway.Onthatnote,it'sagreathonortohaveyouonBulletproofRadio.ThankyouforcomingandpresentingattheBeUnlimitedBulletproofevent.Ireally,reallyappreciateyourtimeandyourwork.

StanislavGrof: Thankyouverymuch.

DaveAsprey: We'regoingtotakeabreakfor20minutes,Mark?DoIhavethisright?AbreakandthenanaudienceQ&A,isthattheplan?We'redonewithourlivebroadcast?

Mark: Yeah,Ithinkwe'redonewiththelivebroadcast.

DaveAsprey: IfyoulikedthisonFacebook,wouldyousharethiswithsomeonewhowouldcare?Hitlike,that'swhatthisisallabout.Ifyoucouldtakethetimetodothat.I'llgothroughandourstaffwillgothroughandwe'llanswersomeofyourquestionsfromthecomments.Butjustlikesandsharesactuallymatter,especiallyforthisdepthofknowledge.It'sararethingandI'mhappyyou'rehereandyouhadsometimetowatchit.