a christian response to my arguments on revelations and my refutation to it

8/12/2019 A Christian Response to My Arguments on Revelations and My Refutation to It

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7/14/2014 A Christian response to my arguments on Revelations and my refutation to it.

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A Christian response to my arguments on Revelationsand my refutation to it.

Part oneBy

Sami Zaatari

One Christian on the chat program paltalk has decided to respond to small part of myarticle on what the Bible says about Jesus. This Christian is also a friend of Sam

Shamoun so therefore I decided to post this on the site for interested readers since I feel

it is a good dialogue and the Christian speaker is good enough to defend his faith.

The article he is responding to can be found here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun24.htm

He Wrote

Hey Sami,


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Hi this is Dk-man7 from Paltalk. You got cut off while we were discussing Surah

4:157 and its implications. Hopefully as you said you will get a mic in the next few

days so we can discuss these issues further. In the mean time let me educate youon Revelation and its doctrine that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty.

As you gave me a link to your website on whether Revelation teaches Jesus is God,

I will respond to that and also reveal to you key points you have missed, provingRevelation teaches Jesus is The Lord God Almighty.

Sami:

Jesus said I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA THE FIRST AND LAST

Did he really say that? Let us quote each alpha omega verse and you will see for

yourself and not a single one of them is Jesus speaking:

Sami you inform your readers here that "you willsee for yourselfand not a

singleone of them is Jesus speaking". Well I certainly did not see for myself soobviously this is incorrect or you are referring to specific readers i.e. muslims which

you should mention.

My Response

Indeed I showed to both parties that Jesus never said he is the alpha and omega, anyone

can see it for themselves.

He Wrote

Sami:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his

servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by

his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of thetestimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that

readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things

which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches


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which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which

was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of thedead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed

us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God

and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold,

he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which piercedhim: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am

Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and

which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the

kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the

word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the

Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am

Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto

Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto

Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Both times were the I am alpha and omega is used, is not said by Jesus but by

THE God as the text clearly shows. Christians would like to say read on which

shows that it is indeed Jesus, so let us read on and see:

Revelation 1:11 today alot of scholars dispute, so i'll leave that. However

Revelation 1:8 quite clearly from its immediate context is referring to Jesus.Revelation 7 will demonstrate:

Rev 1:7Behold, he is coming with the clouds,

The OT makes this same claim about the Son of Man:

Daniel 7:13I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven

there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and

was presented before him.


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Jesus also makes this claim about himself:

Mark 14:61But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priestasked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" Mark14:62And Jesus

said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of

Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

More proof:

Rev 1:8(continued) and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and

all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Jesus fullfilled this pierced prophecy:

John 19:34But one of the soldiers pierced his sidewith a spear, and at once

there came out blood and water. John 19:35He who saw it has borne witness--histestimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth--that you also may

believe. John 19:36For these things took place that the Scripture might be

fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken." John 19:37And again another

Scripture says, "They will look on him whom they have pierced."

The immediate context has given us the identity of the speaker of Revelation 1:8 ,

The Son of Man coming in the clouds, the pierced one, who is the Lord God

Almighty.

Sami, Do you have any proof that it was The Father or The Holy Spirit or someone

else that was pierced?

My Response

Well you havent really showed it is Jesus. All you have showed is verses 1-7 are about

Jesus. Let me post the passages again:


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1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his

servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by

his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of thetestimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that

readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things

which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches

which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and whichwas, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the

dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed

us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto Godand his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold,

he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced

him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I

am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,

which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

As you can see once verse 8 comes it is no longer Jesus speaking. Jesus is the

speaker from verses 1-7. It is very obvious when you read the two that verse 8

is a different speaker. In fact Jesus is ending his statement in verse 7 by saying

Amen. As I said, it is not good English, you have to break it down to see who is

talking, there are up to 4 speakers and they are all speaking so it does

confusing and you can mix the words of the speakers such as you have mixed

the words of THE God with the words of Jesus. So no one is denying verses 1-7

is about Jesus which is basically what you further proved. You did not prove

verse 8 is about Jesus.

Also note what the earlier passages said:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto hisservants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by

his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and

of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw

So basically John heard the testimony of Jesus which basically means he heard

his words. The passages after ward tell us what Jesus said:

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and

keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the

seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which

is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are


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before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first

begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved

us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings andpriests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.

Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they

also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

Even so, Amen.

Those are the words of Jesus that John heard. Note he always says AMEN

afterwards, that is how you can tell when it is no longer Jesus. Such in

revelations verse 8 there is no Amen after the statement of the alpha and

omega. That is one sign that verse is not about Jesus, the fact there is no Amen

afterwards.

Secondly something huge that proves it is not Jesus is this statement that is

made in verse 8:

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is,

and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty

Note the alpha omega is the one who is and which was and is to come. I bet

you anything you will be thinking that is Jesus and that I am crazy for trying to

use this for proof. Well why dont we read the earlier passages again which

show us that Jesus is NOT the one who is and which was and is to come, take

note:: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and

of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the

words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for thetime is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be

unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to

come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5AND FROM

JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed usfrom our sins in his own blood

So as you could see for yourself, the one who is and was and is to come is not

Jesus. Lets break it down:

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and


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peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come

This is THE God talking not Jesus, because note now what Jesus saysmeans he is not the one speaking:

5AND FROM JESUS CHRIST

AND FROM JESUS meaning that the first speaker was not Jesus or it

would not say AND Jesus. The fact it says AND Jesus shows the one

who said I was and is and to come was not Jesus! It cannot get

anymore clearer than that! So my fri Jesus was not speaking in

Revelations 8, if you say he was then your just being bias. Again here

it is:

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and

keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to theseven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which

is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are

before his throne; 5 Andfrom Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and thefirst begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth

AND from Jesus, meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who said I

was and is to come. So this is crystal clear proof that Revelations 8 is not Jesus

since the speaker of Revelations 8 is the one who is, the one that was, and theone who will come and that my friend is not Jesus because there was a

distinction made between the two.

So as to your question:

Sami, Do you have any proof that it was The Father or The Holy Spirit or someone

else that was pierced?

I have proof and just gave it to you that Revelations 1:8 is not Jesus, here it isagain:

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this

prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time

is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto

you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come;and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ


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who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of

the kings of the earth

So there you go, it says AND Jesus meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who

said I was and is and to come. So my argument still stands, Revelations 1:8 was not

Jesus, Revelations 1:5 proves it.

He Wrote

Sami:

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw

seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like

unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about thepaps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white

as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass,

as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And

he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedgedsword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I

saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto

me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead;

and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of

death

Christians will see since John tuned back to see who was speaking, and he sawJesus then this would mean it was Jesus speaking.

Accurate conclussion, judging from the language of Revelation

Sami:

That does not work neither, John heard a voice as a trumpet behind him saying ' I

am the Alpha and Omega' the first and last. John simply turned around to see who

was speaking to him, when he turned around he had a vision, what he saw in this

vision does not mean what he sees in the vision is what was talking to him. God


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not Jesus told John I am the Alpha and Omega and to WRITE what thou sees, so

God already told John to make sure what he sees, because God knew John would

turn around to see what was speaking to him. As soon as John turns he sees thisvision, the man he sees in the vision is assumed to be Jesus, however so Jesus is

not the one who made the Alpha and omega statement, they are two different

situations.

1- God tells John I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, and be sure to

write what you see.

2- John turns around and sees a vision, he sees Jesus. So even reading on it is still

not Jesus saying I am the Alpha and Omega.

You seem mostly to be concerned with the "Alpha and Omega" statement. So you

make an assertion that the person has changed and of course that John did not

visually see Jesus saying "I am the Alpha and Omega" and wowzer you have a new

interpretation...

My Response

Yes, my point is the one John sees is not the one who makes the statement. It

is your interpretation that the one who John sees is the one who says I am thealpha and omega and I disagree. So again, God says I am the alpha and

omega, God tells John to make sure to what he sees when he turns around, so

John turns around and then sees what he sees. If Jesus had made the

statement then why wouldnt he just tell John to record what he sees when

John looks at Jesus, why is John told to record what he sees before he turns

and not after?

He Wrote

Except for the fact you have no evidence the speaker changed, only assertions

because you don't want Jesus to be the one saying it. Now I don't really care aboutRevelation 1:11, so let me just go along with your argument and see if it works for

you.


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My Response

Well actually I did give good reasons to why it was not Jesus speaking, read it again,

you have no proof that it is Jesus, in fact your argument is very weak, you assume that

since John saw Jesus then it must mean Jesus was the one talking. That is the false

assumption.

He Wrote

Notice what the speaker says:

Rev 1:17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right

hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,Rev 1:18and the

living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Deathand Hades.

The NT teaches that Jesus died and was ressurected forevermore. The speaker

says "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore". Not only this but who claims tobe the "first and the last"? None other than YHVH God:

Isaiah 44:6Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD ofhosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

We don't need Revelation 1:11. Revelation 1:17;18 already teach us from the

Words of the mouth of The Son of Man. He is the First and the Last, the living one.

My Response

Well let us see if it does because I already address this in the article because I know

Christians will always bring it up.J

He Wrote

Sami:


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Now Christians will be shouting that Jesus told John I am the first and last and I

was dead and I am alive evermore. That is Jesus without a doubt.

However so let us read Revelations 1:1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

So from the first verse see that Jesus cannot be God. God gave Jesus the

revelation, does God give God a revelation?

My Response

See I told you I brought it up. ;)

He Wrote

Well heres the underlying premise of the rest of your argument. Unfortunately thisargument comes from a lack of understanding of christian theology. The bible

teaches God the Word became a man. When you become a man you have the

capacity to die and ALSO to recieve revelation from God. When Jesus wasressurected he did notceaseto be a Man. He now has a ressurected, glorifiedbody.

My Response

Here is the lack of understanding of your own Christian theology. You state God became

man right? But God never stopped being God even when he became man! So hencewhat you said changes nothing, God became a man, but that does not mean he is not

God anymore. So that is a weak response and my statement still stands. Revelations 1:1

show Jesus cannot be God just by the language used in it. This shows how illogical

Christian theology really is, that God still receives revelations from God, and God dies!

You say it is the man, well even when God became man he never stopped being God

right?

He Wrote


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Sami:

It has already been shown that Jesus is not God in this article, and this supports

the case even further,

The article proves no such thing. As for this latest argument. This has been

corrected above.

My Response

Well you havent responded to my article, the article I am referring to is what the Bible

says about Jesus. So hence you cannot say it proves no such thing. As for the latestargument, it has not been corrected at all.

He Wrote

Sami:

so hence if Jesus said I am the first and the last to signify that he is God then thiswould be blasphemy! So hence Jesus commits blasphemy if he is trying to imply he

is God.

One can study the entire scripture of the OT and NT. Only God makes such a

claim. Hence, Jesus is claiming to be God. As for your assertion that its

blasphemous for Jesus to tell the truth, I don't care, The Jews said the same thing:

John 10:33The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to

stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself

God."

My Response

Now the reason I said if Jesus meant he is God is because of what I wrote in the entire

article proving that Jesus is not God. Here is the article:


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http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun24.htm

You are only responding to one section of it, which is the last one. In the other sections

of the article I proved that Jesus cannot be God, so hence if he did claim to be God in

this passage then it is indeed blasphemy, it is blasphemy because Jesus showed he

cannot be God, and said he is not God. So read the article.

He Wrote

Sami:

I dont think he is, so I dont believe when Jesus said I am the first and last, that

he meant he was God.

Can you explain what he mean't by it then, since he doesn't mean he is God? I

mentioned above only God makes the claim: "I am the first and the last". So you

are welcome to prove someone else makes that claim in the bible who is not GodAlmighty.

My Response

I have no idea of what he meant by it if he wasnt saying it to say he is God. Thatdoesnt matter, what does matter is that if he said it meaning he is God then this is a

blasphemy and contradicts his own words when he says he is not God and proves he

cannot be God so hence you have a contradiction in your Bible. Again read the article.

He Wrote

Sami:

Secondly Jesus said he was dead, God never dies to be dead, God is never dead

PERIOD. So it would seem funny if Jesus is trying to claim he is God and also say

he died when death is something God does not go through. So this does not proveJesus is God, not at all.


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Jesus is God manifested as a Man however. And as a Man, he can die AND recieve

revelation. Here this argument drops aswell.

My Response

How many Jesus are there? You as Christians say there is one Jesus, if we take what

you are saying then we now have 2 Jesus. One man, one God. However so you say

Jesus is both man and God. So if Jesus went to the bathroom, it means God went. If he

cried, it means God cried because at the end of the day JESUS IS GOD according to

you. So if Jesus dies then God dies. Or does Jesus have split personalities?

He Wrote

Now instead of believing what Revelation teaches you are trying to refute it by

appealing to the humanity of Christ which infact proves you are in agreement with

me that Revelation teaches Jesus is God Almighty

My ResponseNo, I am not in agreement that Revelations teaches he is God. As I said I

believe if this is real authentic verses, then Jesus did not mean he is God. I

proved he is not God in the rest of the article, so if he meant he is God he

contradicted himself and committed blasphemy, so my friend you should not

want Revelations to teach Jesus is God because its not a good thing. It justshows your Bible contradicts it self that Revelations is a lie. The other reason to

why I say this passage cannot mean Jesus is God is because God does not die.

Rebuttals, and exposing the lies of the Answering Islam team section.

Rebuttals to Sam Shamoun's Articles section.

Sami Zaatari's Rebuttals section.

Send your comments.


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