lotagrafije photographs by Fernando Alda (FA)

Javier Callejas (je)

Miguel Ciria(MC)

Roland Halbe(ftH)

Miguel duismondo(MQ)

Hisao Suzulci(HS)

Marco Zanta (MZ)

portret! portraits Damil Kalogjera

To Be Abstract Doesn't Mean to Be Minimalist

The singular position of Alberto Campo Baeza within con-

temporary architecture is consequentíal and consistente

with the architect hirnself opting not to actively engage ¡n

its systems of competitiveness and its strategies. 1 Through

the ultímate projects of his now legendary houses, such as De

Blas, Gaspar, Turregano or Guerrero, he creates an ideal woríd

ruled bythelawsofgravityand light. Behind Baezo'sseemingly

simple projects, there are dozens of models and thousands of

drawingsexhlbited ¡n the mostprestigiousspaces-Palladio's

Basílica, Mies's Crown Hall, orthe Museum of Modern Art ¡n

New York. In order to clarify and strengthen his thoughts,

Campu Baeza also reaches for writing. His book, The ftuik ¡dea,

is in itsseventh edition.

Alberto Campo Baeza

VeraCrimmer Maroje Mrduljas Andrija Rusan

Biti apstraktan neznaci biti minimalist Konzekventnost i postojanostoznacujujedinstvenu poziciju

Alberta Campa Baeze unutarsuvremenih arhitektonskih zbi-

vanja u cije se sisteme kompetitivnosti i strategija ne zeli

aktivno ukljucivati. 1 Ultimatimativnim projektimasvojih vec

legendarnih kuca kao sto su De Blas, Gaspar, Turregano ili

Guerrero stvara idealni svijet kojim vladaju zakoni gravitadje

i svjetla. Iza Baezinih naoko jednostavnih projekata stoje

deseci maketa i tisuce crteza izlaganih u najuglednijim pros-

torima - Palladijevoj Bazilici, Miesovom Crown Hallu ili Mu-

zeju modeme umjetnosti u New Yorku. Kako bi razbistrio i

ucvrstio svoje misli, Campo Baeza se sluzi i pisanom rijeci.

Njegova knjiga I he builtldeú dozivjelaje vec 7. izdanje.

KucaGuerrero, Cádiz, ORIS — Aaron Betsky nedavno je relíao u jednom ¡ntervjuu:

spar\joi5fca, 2005. 'Architelttura nam dopusta da se osjecamo kod kuce u svijetLi'.

Vas veorna poecsld tekst o kuci Guerrero ovako zavrsava: 'Raj na

GuerreroHouse, Cádiz, zemljí, naposljetku, sto drugo arhitektura jest no to'. Stvarate

spam. 2005 [j ¿rUg\t ba!j¡ svijetjer ne mozete prihvatiti postojeci, stvarni

(r.A1 svijet koji rtas okriizuje7 I A C B —Volim biti optimistican.

Mislim da arhitektura ne umire. Mislim da je arhitektura vrlo

¿iva. Mislim da trebamo biti optímisticni: arhitektura je vrlo

duboko stvaralastvo. Trenutno je tu mnostvo gluposti. U

sustavu koji se zasniva na zvijezdama postoje arhitekti koji

ponekada stvore dobro djelo, ali cesto proizvode i gluposti

Neki od njih stvaraju vrlo povrsnu arhitekturu. Znate li koliko

vremena treba da se skuha riza? Rizi treba 20, 25, 28 minuta.

Ali, ako potrosite tek$ minuta, ne mozete je skuhati. Mislim

da je za arhitekturu potrebno mnogo vremena. Ne mozemo

prosudivati tek posljednjih pet ilí posljednjih desetgodina.

Trenutacno arhitektura nije mrtva, ona se nastavlja. Prilicno

uzivam predavati na Sveucilistu jer su studen:¡ vrlo dobri; njih

gluposti ne privlace. Morate se pripremiti, morate razmisljati

na najdublji moguci nacin kako biste privukli najbritkije i

najbolje umove. jucer smo razgovarali, na primjer, o tome

koliko sam blizu Berniniju. Bernini je napravio Scala Reggia

ORis — Aaron Betsky recently said in an interview, 'Architec­

ture allows us to be at home in the world.' Your very poetic

text about the Guerrero house ends like this: 'Heaven on earth.

after ali, what else is architecture if not that.' Do you créate

another, better world becauseyou cannot accept the present,

real one which is around us? 1 ACB — l like to be optimistic. I

think architecture doesn't die. 1 think architecture is very alive

I think that we should be optimistic, architecture is a very

deep creation. At this moment, there are a lot of stupidities.

In the star system there are some architects who sometimes

produce a good piece but often produce stupidities. Some

o( them often produce very superficial architecture. Oo you

know how much time you need to cook rice? Rice needs 20,

25, 28 minutes. But if you use only 5 minutes, it's impossible.

I think architecture needs a long time. We can't just judge the

last five years or last ten years. At this moment, architecture

is not dead. it continúes. I enjoy teaching at the University a

lot because the students are very good. they are not attracted

by stupidity. You need to prepare, you need to think in the

deepest sense, to attract the sharp, the best minds. Yesterday

we were speaking, for example, how cióse I am to Bernini.

Bernini was making the scala reggia to connect two pieces in

Djecji vrtic za

Benetton, Venecija,

Italija, 2007.

É Benetton Nursery, Venice, Italy, 2007

(MZ)

zraka ucinila je da kisni mlaz svijetli, pa se tako svjetlo ü tom

trenutku materijaliziralo. Je li istina da zbog ove povezanosti

s 2500 godina povíjesti zapadnog svijeta razmisljate jasnije

i ostrije o problemimaarhitekture koji su zapravo uvijek isti.

Ljudi su uvijek bili isti. Stoga to nije pitanje mimikrije, vec

pitanje rjesavanja kao i sagledavanja problema na jasniji

nacin. 1 ACB — Ali ja mislim da to nije tako zbog vaseg ili

mog misljenja. Razlog niste vi, niti ja, Mies, Le Corbusier,

niti Adriano - razlog je Ijudsko bice i odnos izmedu Ijudskog

bica i prostora. Na isti nacin kada putujem, obicno ponesem

neke knjige. A posljednja knjiga koju sam ponovo ponió bila

je Homerova Od'tseja. Kada citam Hornera, uzivam u njemu

na isti nacin kao kada citam Sandora Maraija. lAko volite

knjizevnost, znate da je Homer pisao korisceci mehanizme

ponavljanja; on ponekad ponavija iste rijeci - tako je i u

arhitekturi. Mi ponavljamo mnostvo uobicajenih stvari. Mi

otkrivamo. Kada radim djecji vrtic za Benetton svjetlom, ne

koristim kupolu. Koristim kubicni oblik. Koristim apstraktnij

mehanizam s 9 otvora. Tih 9 otvora na vrhu nisu obicni kru-

govi, oni usmjeravaju svjetlo. 11 nace se s Aaronom Betskyjem

ne slazem. Mislim da je nemoguce da arhitektura nestane.

Mislim da je nemoguce da um umre. Mozete me ubiti, ali ne

a very long space. He was making a miracle with light there.

As an architect, I try not to be so vain and i try to serve people.

And the people in my houses are living happily. I am not

making houses for people to suffer because they are living in

a piece of art. No, no. I am trying to use the light, the space. Of

course, we are trying, on the one hand, to produce happiness

for the people living in our houses, in our schools, in our

architecture. But on the other hand, when you are producing

architecture, you are trying to resolve more abstract problems,

for example: continuity, transparency, lightness. The history

of architecture isa ñght to try to be lighter, lighter and lighter.

You can make thinner and thinner columns but with a limit,

because they are instone orín brick. When I amwritingabout

gravity and light as the main ingredients for architecture, it's

not because I should invent a theory, it's because with me or

without me - gravity, the ñght against gravity or the capacity

to control gravity and to control light are important, When

Adriano made the Pantheon in Rome, it's the same quality

which was made by Bernini when he was making everythíng.

It is the same quality which was made by Mies van de Rohe

when he was putting the columns out ofthe clean, horizontal

plan for the Farnsworth House.

i Djecji vrticza

Benetton, Venecija,

Italija, 2007.

•4 Djecji vrcic za

Benetton, Venecija,

Italija. 2007. skica

4 Benetton Nursery,

Venice. Italy, 2007,

sketch

mozete ubiti moje ideje. To mi se cini tako jasno. Nagovaram

$voje studente da nastave studirati, da odu u New York, na

Columbiju ili u Rim. Ucenje níkada ne prestaje. U dobi od

61 godine ja i dalje nastavljam jer znam da morarn; moram

uvijek stalno uciti, istrazivati. Trebam uciti. I uzivati. Bas sa-

da bíh htio imati vise vremena za citanje. I biljezim. Imam

i mnogo skica. 1 Sto je arhitektura? Tri ideje koje branim u

Svojim tekstovima i na kojima inzistiram, ne zbog toga sto

pokusavam imati neku teoriju - teorija mi ne treba - tri ideje

koje branim su: svjetlo, sila teze, arhitektura kao izgradena

jdeja. Pokusavam uvjeriti svoje studente da je potrebno b i ti

vrlo dubok, ne samo formalizirati i razrijesiti problem funkcije.

Ne transformirati problem, vec ga prepoznati. Problem nije

tek stvoriti kucu, problem je mnogo vise od toga. Problem je

u tome kako stvoriti najbolju mogucu kucu.

ORIS — U osnovi, stvarate idealizirani svijet, na neki nacin

samodostatan; pokusavate stvoriti cijeli jedan svijet unutar

jedne kuce. Mislim da je jedna od vasih glavnih strategija

koju korístite u vecini svojih kuca - taj pokusaj, borba za

stvaranje idealnog svijeta unutarvase arhitekture. To je, po

mom misljenjujednood osnovnih polazistavaseg rada. Kako

stvoriti nesto uzpomoc arhitekture, nestostoje u potpunosti

ORIS — You mentioned the Pantheon. We remember your

story about your experience in the Pantheon; the rain was

falling in through the oculus and the sun's rays made it

luminous and the light was materialized in this moment.

Is it true that this connection to this 2,500 years of the

history of the Western world makes you think clearer, more

distinctly about the probiems of archítecture which are

in fact the same. So it is not a question of mimicry, but

a question of solving probiems or seeing probiems more

ctearly. 1 A C B — But I think it's not because ofyouropinion

or my opinión. It's not because of you, not because of me,

Mies, Le Corbusier, not because of Adriano - it's because

of the human being and the relation between the human

being and space. In the same way, when I travel, I take some

books. And the last book I took one more time, was the

Odyssey by Homer. When I am reading Homer, I enjoy it in

the same way as when 1 am reading Sandor Marai. 11f you

like literature - you know how Homer is written, using the

mechanism of repetition, he repeats the same words many

times - it's like in architecture. We repeat many common

things. We discover. When I am making my Nursery for

Benetton with light I am not using a cupola. I am using a

Banka Caja de Granada, •

Granada, Spanjolska,

2001.

Caja de Granada Bank, •

Granada, Spain, 2ocn

(FA)

Banka Caja de Granada. Granada,

Spanjolska, 2001., skica

Bank Caja de Granada. Granada,

Spain, 2001, sketch

savrseno i ima svoje savrsenstvo u smislu idealiziranog

zivota, Kako to postici uz pomoc arhitektonskih sredstava?

^ A C B — Kako? To pakusavam príbliziti mojim studentima,

mojim prijateljima kada raspravljamo, mojim asistentima,

mojim suradnicima. O tome razmisljam na nacin stvaratelja,

na isti nacin kako to radi slikar ili pisac. 1 Mozete napraviti

kucu. Uredu.jednavjezbaformalizma. Poputkuhanja. Mozete

kuhati na vrlo bistar nacin ili kuhati na uobicajen nacin. Gdje

je razlika? Jako je tesko biti vrlo bistar.

ORIS — Frampton jegovorio o olimpskom miru u vasem djelu.

1 ACB — Frampton je odvise velikodusan.

0RI5 — Odakle snaga koja vam omogucava nastaviti radití

unatoc okolini, ovom svijetu oko ñas koji je glasan i postaje

sve glasniji. Ovdje mislim i naprojekte u Kini kojeradenekiod

arhitekata-zvijezda. Mozda je cijela stvar komplicírana. Ali, je

li touistinu dobro za buducnost arhitekture?lACB —Al i to

je istinito. Toje buducnost arhitekture. Mislim da je Frampton

u pravu. Problem Kine je kompleksan. Zapravo, dobio sam

ponudu da gradim u Kini - rekao sam da necu. Zbog toga

jer mislim da je potrebno imati vremena, vremena i vremena.

Kada sam dobio ponudu da napravim djecji vrtic za Benetton

u Veneciji, rekao sam da hocu. Veneciji i Benettonu sam blizu

mogucnost je izgledala dobrom. Ali Kina - mislim da je

nije lako razumjeti i da je tamo vrlo tesko kontrolirati stvari.

Neki mojí prijatelji gradili su u Kini i uvijek je bilo mnostvo

problema. Ali, da se vratim vasem pitanju - Frampton, Kina,

buducnost.... Mislimda buducnostnije zakucasta. Mislim da

je problem isti kao problem koji smo ¡malí 50-ih godina, kada

sam bio dijete. Mozda ga bas dañas vidimo jer je vrlo lako

cubical form. I am using a more abstract mechanism with 9

holes. The 9 holes on the top are not simple circles, they give

directions to the light IThe first approach was about this

Aaron Betsky with whom I disagree. I think it's impossible

for arcbitecture to die. It's impossible íor the mind to die.

You can kill me, but you cannot kill my ideas. I think it's so

clear. I push my students to continué studying, to go to

New York, to Columbia or Rome. Studying never stops. At

6~i, I still continué, because I know I should, I must continué

studying continuously, exploring, investigating. I need to

study. And to enjoy. Just now, I would like to have more time

For reading. I take notes, I have a lot of sketches. 1 What is

architecture? The three points that I am defending in my

writingsand I insiston, it is not because I amtrying to have

a theory, I don't need a theory, the three points that I am

defending are light, gravity, architecture as a built ¡dea, I try

toconvince my students that it is necessary to bevery deep,

not only to formalize and to resolve the problem of function

Not transform the problem, but to recognize it. The problem

is not only in producing the house, it's much, much more. It

is how to produce the best possible house

ORIS — Basically, you created an idealized world, self-con-

tained in a way, you are trying to construct a world of itself

within one house. I think this is one of the main strategies

you are deploying in most of your houses - this attempt, this

struggle to construct an idea! world within architecture. So (

anka Caja de Granada, Granada, t*

Spanjolska, 2001.

Bank Caja de Granada, Granada, H

Spain, 2001

üii

jSSju ¡1

iBOi SIÍSES&JI Si ÍJ5Í

> ' ' ¿ r Centar za posjetitelje

Janubio Salina?,

Lanzarote, Spanjolska.

2007.. maketa

é

Janubio Salinas Visitor

Centre, Lanzarote,

Spaír», 2007, model

(Mq

Centar za posjetitelje •

Janubio Salinas,

Lanzarote, Spanjolska,

2007., skíca

Janubio Salinas Vísítor •

Centre, Lanzarote,

Spain, 2007. sketch

l 2. ¿>C¿-c*-~y o tas £

A Skica sa ¡ntervjLa,

2008

-4 Sketch from che

incerview, 2008

graditi. Ne znam, mozda u vasoj zenlji nema toliko mnogo

smeca kao u mojoj. Kada sam prosao zracnom lukom i otkrio

Madrid, rekao sam sebi: Boze, kolikc veliki broj arhitekata s

puno novaca, vrlo bogatih arhitekata, koji stvaraju tako og-

roman broj gluposti. A koliko je politizara u stanju shvatiti

kako je arhitektura vrlo dobar nacin da se Ijudi usrece. Kada

razgovaramo o urbanizmu - sto je urbanizam? To je tek pro-

mjenamjerila, toje poputstvaranjareda kao u ovoj sobi. Zas-

to ne u jednom gradu, zasto ne u jednoj zemlji, zasto ne u

planinama? Frampton je vrlo posten. Kada on govori oteorij

tektonike, on priznaje od prvoga trenutka da ju je uzeo od

Sempera. Akakvaje buducnostarhitekture? Mislim da je vaz-

no da postoji odreden broj arhitekata koji su sposobni pobjeci

od tastine trzista, slave, novca, ali to ne znaci b i ti junak. Ja

nisam junak. Tek je vazno zaustaviti se, razmisliti, uzivati,

pobjeci malo; to nije tako tesko.

OR1S—Cini se dato nije tako tesko. A jest tesko jer na primjer

Frampton namjemo pogresno Ínterpretira Sempera, inzis-

tirajuci na stereotomiji i tektonici, ali namjernc izbjegava

pitanje ornamenta, koji je za Sempera kljucni prijenosnik

kulturalnog znacenja neke zgrade. Talco, na primjer, kada

odete u Berlín, viditejednu vrstu Sempera, ali kada pódete

u Zürich, tada vidite tu bogatu ornamentaciju kojaje njemu

bilaiznimnokulturalno vazna. Naravio, kao nadgradnjatom

think this is one of the underlying narratives ofyour work.

How to créate something with archítecturewhich is comple-

tely perfectand has this perfectness in termsof idealized life.

How to do this with architectural means? 1 ACB — How? 1

try to transport it to my students, to my friends when we are

discussing, to myassistants, my collaborators. I thinkof itlike

a creator, in the same way as a painter, or a writer. 1 You can

make a house. Okay, an exercise of formalism. Like to cook.

You can cook in a very sharp way orto cook in an ordinary way.

What is the difTerence? It's so difficult to be very sharp.

O R I S — Frampton was speaking of this Olympiccalm inyour

work. 1 ACB — Frampton is too generous.

ORIS — What is this strength in you that makes you continué

with your work despite the surroundings, this world around

us which is loud and always louder. Now l'm also thinking

about these projects in China made by some star architects.

Perhaps the whole complex is complicated. But is it really

good for the future of architecture? 1 ACB — B i t it's true.

That is the future of architecture. I think Frampton is right.

The problem in China is complex. In fact, I received an offer

to build in China - I said no. Because I think it is necessary

to have time, time, time. When I received the offer to make

a Nursery for Benetton in Venice, I said yes. I am cióse to

Venice and to Benetton, and the possibility was very good. But

Centar za posjetitelje

Janubio Salinas,

Lanzarote, Spanjolska,

2007., render

Janubio Salinas Visitor

Centre. Lanzarote,

Spain, 2007, render,

(MC)

dijelu stereotomske-tektonske-ontoloske arhitektonske

strukture. Volio bih kad biste mogii prokomentirati svoj stav

pierna materijalima i povrsinama í svoju namjeru da budete

sto je moguce apstraktniji u upotrebi geometrije i materijala.

1 ACB — Vase je pitanje vrlo klasicno pitanje za ovo doba. To

je tip razgovora koji volim voditi sa svojim asistentima i svojim

prijateljima. Naravno, sto uciníti s ornamentom, sto uciniti s

materijalom, biti apstraktan ¡li ne? Meni su pripisali etiketu

minimalista.

ORIS — Namjerno nisam koristiotaj pojam. Al i rekli ste: biti

apstraktan ili ne biti apstraktan. 1 ACB — Vise volim koristiti

China, I think is not so easy to understand, it is very difñcult

to control. I have some friends who built in China and there

are always a lot of problems. But your question, Frampton,

China, the future... I think the future is not difñcult. I think

the problem is the same problem we had in the fifties when I

wasachild. Maybejust nowwe seeit, because it'svery easy to

build. And there are, I don'tknow, maybein your country there

is not such an enormous quantity of shits like in my country

When I carne through the airport and discovered Madrid, I

said: My God, what an enormous number of architects with

a lot of money, very rich architects, and they are producing

rijec esencijalan. Pokusati biti esencijalan. Govorimo o arhi-

tekturi - arhitektura je materijalna. Trebate materijalizirati

nesto, izgradití. Mozete imati ¡deje, vrlo dobre ideje; ja branirr.

ideje, ali branim i sposobnost efikasne preobrazbe ideja putem

materijala. Saramago, portugalski pisac (nobelovac), govoreci

o piscima, rekao je da je vazno imati ideje, ali i proizvest

precizne rijeci i písati, proizvoditi, materijalizirati. Morate imat

sposobnost efikasne preobrazbe putem dimenzija, proporcija,

mjerila. Proporcije, mjerilo - to su vrlo stari koncepti, Kada

je Alberti govorio o mjenlu, o zlatnom rezu... oh, Boze, biti

precizan u brojkama, u dimenzijama... Je li jednako graditi u

such an enormous quantity of stupidities. And how many

politicians are capable of understanding how architecture is

a very good way to make happy people. When we are speaking

of urbanism-what is urbanism? It isonly achangeof scale, it

is to make order like in this room. Why not in a city, why not

in a country, why not on the mountains? Frampton is very

honest. When he speaks and defends the theory about the

tectoníc, he confesses from the ñrst moment it is taken from

Semper. And what is the future of architecture? I think if we

can have a group of architects capable of escaping from this

vanity of the market, of the fame, of the money, but it's not

Centarza posjetitelje

Janubio Salinas,

Lanzarote, Spanjolska

2007., skica

,i

Janubio Salinas Visitor

Centre, Lanzarote.

Spain. 2007. sketch

Museo de la Memoria Museo de la Memoria

de Andalucía, Granada, de Andalucía, Granada

Spanjolska, 2009. Spain, 2009

uzduzni presjek longitudinal section

: X ~

kamenu, ciglama íli u celiku? Nije. Biti precizan udimenzíjama.

Biti apstraktan ne znaci biti minimalist, to znaci znati koji su

bitni sastojci. Trebate komponirati, trebate oblikovati i odlu-

citi o materijalu. 1 Htio bih znati kako savrseno kontrolirati

svaku dimenziju. Pravimmnogo, mnogo maketa.,. To je nacin

da se bude sve precizniji. To nije stvar puke proizvodnje formi.

Za svaki projekt napravim 20, 30 maketa. A te makete su

vrlo, vrlo slicne. Govorio sam o Berniniju; i ja branim Berni-

nija jer mislim da je Bernini bio arhitekt koji je bio sposoban

za savrsenu kontrolu. Ako se mozete sjetiti, napravio je

skulpturu 'Otmica Perzefone' od bijelog mramora, Mramor

jehladan i tvrd, ali kadajujeon napravio, taj mramorizgleda

mekan. On je bio vrlo precizan. Mislim dajelakse biti precizan

u kiparstvu negó biti precizan u arhitekturi. Bernini je bio

vrlo precizan i u arhitekturi. Osvojio sam natjecanje za Cajú

u Granadi s nadsvjetlima dimenzija 3 x 3 x 3 metra, Kasnije

sam proucavao taj projekt i otvorio otvore od 6 x 6 x 3 m zbog

svjetla. Jesam li bio glup kada sam to projektirao 3 x 3 x 3? Ne.

Ideja je bíla istovjetna. Ali kasnije trebate matenjalizirati ideju.

to be a hero. I am not a hero. It is important only to stop, to

think, to enjoy, to escape a bit, it's not so diffícult.

ORIS — It seems it is not so difficult. It is dlfficult because for

example Frampton deliberately misreads Semper insisting on

stereotonics and tectonics but intentionally avoids the issue of

ornament which was for Semper the key carrier of the cultural

meaning of a building. So for example when you go to Berlín

you see one kind of Semper, but then when you go to Zürich

then you see this heavy ornamentation which was extremely

culturally important for him. Of course, as in an upgradeas

in part of this stereotonic-tectonic-ontologícal architectural

structure. So I would like it if you could comment on your

attitude towards materials and surfaces and about your

intentionto beasabstractaspossible ¡n useofgeometryand

materials. I A C B — Your question is a very classic question

for the time. It is the type of conversation I like to have with

my assistants and with my friends. Of course, what about

ornament, what about material, to be abstract or not to be

abstract. They attached to me the label of a minimalist.

Museo de la Memoria

de Andalucia, Granada,

Spanjolska, 2009

á Museo de la Memoria

de Andalucia, Granada,

Spain, 2009

OC)

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Materijalizirati znaci oblikovati - biti precizan u mjerama i

bit¡ precizan u materijaüma. Moj posljednji projekt, Centar

zaposjetitelje Janubio Salinas, je platforma90x90 m u crnoj

boji. U potpunosti crna. Zato jer se nalazi na Lanzarote, koji

pripada Kanarskim otocima. Crna je, otok je crn, vulkanski,

nalazi se na brdu. Posjetio sam lokaciju na tom otoku; ovako

je izgledala: brda, s vrha vidite more, sunce, zalaz sunca, tu

je i slano jezero. 1 Zasto crna? Zemlja je crna. I glupo je raditi

bijelu arhitekturu. Zasto lebdeca? Zasto konzola?Jersmona

rubu. Pokusavam naglasiti. I stvoriti ovu staklenu kutiju sto

je poput oka. To je vrlo, vrlo jednostavno. I funkcionira. Na

srecu, klijent je vrlo zadovoljan. A politicari? Bilo je to po prvi

puta u mom zivotu da su se i oni u potpunosti slozili; sveje

savrseno. Molda cerno poceti graditi koncem ove godine i

to me cini vrlo sretnim. Struktura ce biti od celika. A sto se

tice obloge, jer trebam materijal u komadima da bi sve bilo

u potpunosti vodoravno - dvojio sam: betón ili kamen... a

moguce je dobiti kamen na otoku... Bit ce tu i fotovoltazni

vrt. Takoder ce biti crn. Tako da ce ovaj projekt biti izraden od

kamena ili betona uz koristenje prirodnih elemenata.

ORis — Kadapogledamo vaseskice, idejneprojektei konacan

rezultat, zadivljujuce je koliko su one zapravo bliske, kako

je prva ideja ocito prisutna i sadrzana u izvedenoj zgradi.

1 ACB — I da i ne. Da, jer vi poznajete samo one skice koje

jesu toliko blizu. Ali prije tih skica postojalo je mnostvo drugih.

Imao sam izlozbu u Palladijevoj Bazilici, kao i u Crown Hallu

Vlasnik kuce De Blass je u Institutu Cervantes u Chicagu. On

meje nazvao: 'Ja sam u Chicagu, htio bih napraviti izlozbu...

o vasem radu'. Bilo je to godinu daña nakon izgradnje nje-

gove kuce, bioje njome zadovoljan. Rekao sam: 'Dobro, u

redu'. 'Gdje biste htjeli izlozbu?' Rekao sam: 'U Crown Hallu

ili u kuci Farnsworth". Jednog daña me nazvao - dobio sam

Crown Hall.

ORIS — I deliberately didn't use thís term. But you said: to

be abstract or not to be abstract. 1 ACB — I prefer to use trie

word essential, To try to be essential. We are speaking about

architecture - architecture is material. You need to mate-

rialize, to construct. You can have ideas, very good ideas;

I am defending ideas but I am also defending the capacity

to transíate ideas efficiently through material. Saramago,

the Portugese writer [Nobel prize winner], speaking about

writers, said it is important to have ideas, but also to produce

precise words and to write, to produce, to materialize. You

must be capable of translating efficiently through dimensions,

proportions, scale. Proportions, scale are very oíd concepts.

When Alberti spoke about scale, about the golden section...

oh, my Cod, to be precise in numbers, in dimensions.... Is it

the same tobuild in stone, bricksorin steel? No. Tobe precise

in dimensions. To be abstract is not to be minimalist, it is to

know what the most essential ingredients are. You need to

compose, you need to formalize and decide on a material. 11

would liketo know how to control every dimensión perfectly,

make many, many models.... It'saway to be more and more

precise. It's not only to produce forms, For every project

make 20, 30 models. And the models are very, very similar.

wasspeaking of Bernini.and I am defending Bernini becausel

think Bernini was an architect capable of perfect control. If you

remember, he made a statue, Rope ofProserpina made ofwhite

marbie. The marbie iscold and hard, but when he made it, the

marbie looks soft. He's very precise. I think it is easier to be

precise in sculpture than to be precise in architecture. Bernini

was also very precise in architecture. I won the competition

for the Caja in Granada with skylights which were 3 by 3 by 3

m. After, I studied the project and opened 6 by 6 by 3 because

of the light. Was I stupid when I designed 3 by 3 by 3? No. The

dea was the same. But afterwards you need to materialize the

CRIS — Mislirn da vasi posljednji projektí postaju sve jas-

niji, ¡znimno precizni, sve cistiji. Ciní se da sve vise idete u

pravcu najosnovnije geometrije gradevina. Mozete li to pro-

komentirati? 1AC8 — Ne. To ovisi... Za projekt na Kanarskim

otocima mozda to vrijedi. Na posljednjem skoro dovrsenom

projektu, na zgradi u Cranadi - Museo de la Memoria da

Andalucía - stvar je kompleksnija, skice su kompleksnije

jer je projekt kompleksniji. To ovisi... Velicina, zadani prog-

ram - na isti nacin pokusavam biti dubok. Na isti nacin kao

kada pisem. Kad pisem, pisem tek r.eophodne stvari i po­

kusavam ne pisati vise no sto je nuzno. Na isti nacin kada

radim crteze, ne crtam zbog crtanja, vec pokusavam izraziti

¡deje. Pokusavam razmisljati kroz crteze; crtezi su ñas nacin

ízrazavanja.

ORIS — lli posredovanja i provjeravanja ¡deja i koncepata.

I A C B — Da. No, u svakom slucaju, ne mogu, sa 6i godinu

biti toliko precizan koliko bih zelio. Bernini je bio cudoviste.

Ne znam je li to prevedeno u vasoj zemlji, ali postoji jedna

knjiga koju je napisao Chantelou. Napisao je Povijest signoro

Berninija. Knjiga je o Berniniju, o tome kako putuje u Pariz

da bi izgradio novu palacu. Tamo gdje je dañas Louvre bíla je

kraljevska palaca koju je izgradio jedan drugi arhitekt Mansart.

Prednost Mansartaje bila u tome sto je bio brat kraljeva Ije-

karnika. Dobioje posao. Ajadni Bernini je posjetio Pariz. A

posjetiti Pariz, iz Rima u Pariz, znacilo je putovati u kocijama,

a kocije su se mnogo puta zaustavljale. Vrlo je lijepa ta prica

koju je napisao Chantelou. Bernini sezaustavljaosvaki dan da

bi prespavao u nekom gradu, u nekom selu, a u svim selima

mnostvo je docekivalo signora Berninija jer je on bio Papin

arhitekt koji je htio sluziti kralju.

ORIS — U toj potrazi za preciznoscu, na primjer, u ovom

velikom prostoru, u Museo de la Memoria de Andalucia. vrlo

je komplicirano zamisliti kako ce on zapravo funkcionirati.

idea. To materialize is to form, to be precise ¡n measure and

also to be precise in materials. My last project, Janubio Salinas

Visitor Centre, is a platform 90 by 90, black. Completely black.

Because it is in Lanzarote, in the Canary Islands. It's black, the

island is black, volcanic, it's on a hill. I visited the place on

this island, the place was like this: hills, from the top you see

the sea, the sun, sunsets were here, there was a lake of satted

water. 1 Why black? The earth is black. And it's stupid to make

the architecture white. Why flying? why cantilever? Because

we are on the border, l'm trying to underline. And to créate

this box in glass like an eye. It's very, very simple. It works.

Fortunately the client is very happy. And the politicians, it is

the first time in my life, they completely agree, eve-ything is

perfect. Maybe we will start at the end of this year and I arm

very happy about it. The frame will be in steel. And for the

covering, because to get it completely horizontal, I need the

material in pieces, and my doubts were: concrete or stone...

and it's possible to take the stone of the island.... There will

be a photovoltage ganden. Also black. So this project will be

in stone or concrete, with natural elements.

OR15 —When we look at your sketches, the preliminary

sketches and the final result, it's astonishing how cióse they

areactually, and how cióse the first ideáis so evidentlypresent

and embedded in the construction. 1 ACB — Yes and no. Yes,

because you know only the sketches which are so cióse. But

before these sketches, there were many more sketches. I had

an exhibition in the Palladlo Basilica, I was in the Crown Hall.

The ownerofthe De Blass house is in the Instituto Cervantes

in Chicago. And he called me: I am in Chicago, I would like

to make an exhibition... on your work. It was one year after

his house, he was happy with his house. And I said yes, okay.

Where would you like the exhibition? I said: in the Crown

Hall or in Farnsworth House. One day he called me: I got the

Crown Hall.

ORIS — I think that your íatest projects are getting more

clean-cut, extremely precise, purer and purer. It seems you

are going more into the completely essential geometry of

the constructions. Could you comment on that? 1 ACB — No.

It depends. In the Canary Islands project it is true. Maybe.

In the last project, almost ñnished, this building in Granada,

the Museo de la Memoria da Andalucia, it is more complex,

the sketches are more complex because the project is more

complex. It depends. The size, the taken programme, in the

same way I try to be deep. In the same way when I write I try

to write only the necessary things and I try not to write more

than necessary. In the sane way, when l'm making drawings,

I am not making drawings for drawing, but trying to express

Kuca Olnick Spanu, *•

Carrison, New York,

SAD. 2008

Olnick Spanu House, P

Carrison, New York,

USA, 2008

(MQ)

Kuca Olnick Spanu. •

Garrison, New York,

SAO, 2008., skica

Olnick Spanu House, •

Garrison, New York.

USA, 2008, sketch

^A^VU^&ArJ^X^MJmLWm, Jgg^ilMfc^

Koristite li u svom radu préthodna is<ustva drugih pros-

tora kao modele, kao pocetne tocke ¡ti referentne tocke?

I A C B — • Ne mogu shvatiti zastosam seodlucioza veliki hori-

zontalni tlocrt za Cajú. Ne mogu shvatiti kada se taj trenutak

zbio. Mnogo se stvari dogadalo. Mozdaje SirOwen Williams

bio stalno prisutan u mojim mislirna. Kasnije sam otkrio odnos

izmedu tog prostora i prostorakatedrale u Cranadi; biloje to

a posterior!, sljcajno. Zapanjilo me to onaj dan kada sam to

otkrio. Na isti se nacin ¡znenadim kada posjetim gradiliste

svaka dva tjedna. Moji suradnicí, oni idu u Cranadu svaki

tjedan kako bi nadzirali novu zgradu. A prije no sto odemo

deas. 1 am trying to think with the drawings, drawings are

ourway of expression.

ORIS — Or to medíate and to check out your ideas and con-

cepts. 1 ACB — Yes. But in any case, I cannot, at 6i, be as

precise as I would like. Bernini was a monster, I don't know if

it is translated in your country, but there is a book by someone

named Chantelou. He wrote The History oflí Signare Bernini.

*. It is about Bernini travelling to Paris to build the new palace.

Where the Louvre is now, is the oíd palace made by another

architect, Mansart. The merit of Mansart was that he was the

brother of the King's pharmacist. He received the commission.

Kuca Olnick Spanu

Garrison, New York,

SAO, 2008

A Olnick Spanu House,

Garrison, New York,

USA, 2008

(MCÚ

do nove zgrade, ulazimo u Cajú kako bismo vidjeli novu zgradu

s krova. Kada udem, rnozdaje ovaj komentar vrlo tast, alí kada

udem, uvijek kazem: 'Aaah. Josjednom sam vrlodirnut.' Meni

je to vrlo cudno: to znaíí reci da, a ne mozete konüolirati

prostor. Mozete kontrolirati mjere, Mozete kontrolirati ma-

terijale. Mozete pretvoriti svoju ideju u zgradu, itd., ali nakon

toga - uvijek je to nesto vise, a to je poput poklcna. Poklon

dode ili ne. To je poklon, jer kada udem, vrlo sam dirnut,

to je nesto kao Ijepota. Zena moze biti savrsena ¡ hladna.

Neka druga zena moze biti nesavrsena i tako lijepa, Ljepota

je savrsenstvo. Vrlo mu je blizu, ne potpuno. Nemoguce je

znati kako je postíci. Vitruvius je govorio o utilitas, {invitas

i venustos. Utilitas je vrlo jednostavno. Napravite zgradu

koja moze biti korisna. Firmitas - znaci izgraditi, voda ide

ovamo, izolacija tamo. Mozete koristiti proporciju, sve o

cemu smo razgovarali, Ali ovaj posljednji moment, aah, to

nije tako lako.

ORIS—Tako unatoc vaso] zelji za savrsenstvom dopusta-

te, recimo to tako, nekontroliranim momentima, ili nesavr-

senstvu, da udu u projekt da biste stvoríli konacnu Ijepotu.

' ÍACB — Da, no to je malo paradoksalno. Sigu'an sam da

pokusate formirati svoju djecu na najbolji nacín. Ali, kasnije

- sloboda je sloboda. Ako su savrsena i ispravna, nalikovat

ce na vojnike, bit ce dosadna i savrsena. A mislim da je isto

s nasím stvaranjem. Knjiga koju sam posljednji put ponió

na putovanje je Albertijeva. Njena je tema kako smjestiti

objekt u pejzaz ili u grad. Kako smjestiti. Nije rijec o venus-

tasu, ne o funkciji, vec o tome kako smjestiti. To je pomalo

nalik komponiranju, ali je vise od toga. Zapravo je vrlo in-

teresantno nací pravo mjesto. U vezi s mojom bankom, ve-

likom bankom Caja de Granada i njenim novim dodatkom

mogu reci da je najbolje kako su dobro smjesteni. Akoodete

u Granadu, s Alhambre vidite grad, mnostvo zgrada, a samo

je moja zgrada- tabanka- tu . Zasto?Jersam stvorio podij,

stvorio sam dva vrta - trikovi. No, u konacnici mislim da je

stvar misteriozna. Mozda nije misterij; zapravo je to vrlo

promisljeno, Mislim da morate uciti, uciti, uciti... Uzmite

mog oca... Moj otac je bio kirurg; sjecam se kako je uvijek

ucio kad sam bio malí. Uvijek je proucavao casopise o ki-

rurgiji iz SAD-A, na engleskom,. Kao djeca, mí smo te knjige

gledali zbog golih zena. Moj je otac govorio encleski, no ne

vrlodobro. Zívioje u izgubljenomgradu, uCadízu, ali je uvijek

ucio. I rekao sam sebi: moj otac bio je mudar covjek, uvijek je

nastavljao uciti. Neophodnoje uciti, misliti, uz nesavrsenstva,

uz nedostatke, itd.

ORIS — Kad cítate Hornera, na kojem jeziku cítate? Í A C B — Na

spanjolskom. Postoji lijepa prica o Cervantesu.Taj spanjolski

And poor Berniní visited Paris. And to visit Paris, from Rome

to Paris, he was in a carriage and the carriage stopped many

times. It's very beautiful, the story by Chantelou, he was

stopping every day to sleep in a city, in a village, and in ali the

villages the crowd received signore Berniní, because he was

the architect of the Pope, goíng to serve the Kíng.

ORIS — In this search for precisión, forexample, in thishuge

space, In the Museo de la Memoria de Andalucía, it's very

complícated to envision how it's actually going to work and

functíon in reality. Do you use previous experiences ofother

space? as models or as starting points or reference points

in your work? 1 ACB — I cannot understand why I decided

on the big horizontal plan of the Caja. I cannot understand

what the moment was. Many things were coming. Maybe

Sir Owen Williams was always in front of me. Afterwards, I

discovered the relation between this space and the space of

Granada Cathedral, it was a posterior! by chance. I was asto-

nished the day when I discovered this. In the same way that

I am astonished when I visit the site every two weeks. My

collaborators, they go to Granada every week to control the

new building. And before going to this building we enter the

Caja Building to see the new building from the top. And when

I enter.. it's maybe very vain this comment, but when I enter

I always say 'Aaah'. One more time I am very moved. For me

it's very strange; it's to express that you cannot control the

space. You can control the measures. You ¿an control the

materials. You can transform your idea ínto a building etc.,

but afterwards there is something more, that is like a gift:

This gift either comes or it doesn't. Here, there is the gift

because when I enter, I am very moved, and it's like beauty.

A woman can be perfect and cold, Another woman can be

mperfectand so beautiful. The beautiful is perfection. It's

very cióse but not completely. It's like impossíble to know how

to get to it. Vitruvius was speaking of utilitas, firmitas and

venustos. Utilitas is very simple. You make a building capable

of being useful. Firmitas-toconstruct, the water comes here,

insulation there. You can use proportion, everythíng we spoke

about. But the last moment, ahh, it's not so easy,

ORÍS—-So, despite your urge for perfection you allowthese

letJs say uncontroilable moments to enter into the project, or

¡mperfect on, in order toconstruct the final beauty. Í A C B —

Yes, but it's a bit paradoxical. I am sure you try to form your

children in the most correct way, But afterwards freedom is

freedom. If they are perfect and correct ali of the time they

will be like the military, boríng and perfect. And I think in

our creation it's the same. The last book I took for my travels,

it's by Alberti: how to place the piece in the landscape or in

pisac bio je vrlo ozbiljan. Pisao je savrseno, bio je vrlo bistar,

toliko inteligentan daje 1612., kadaje napisao Don Quijotea,

odmah narucio prijevod na engleski. Slucajno je te ¡ste

godine Chapman prevodio Hornera na engleski jezik. Godinu

daña nakon toga ili godinu daña ranije. Ne svida mi se sto ne

<jovorim tecnoengleski. niti tostó nemamozajednicki jezik...

Ova kazna Kule babilonske bila je vrlo stroga, prestroga.

ORIS—Buduci da ste poceli raspravfjati o pitanju jezika,

vidite l¡ se kao spanjolskí arhitekt u smislu kulcuralnog konti-

nuiteta. 1 ACB — Ne shvacam tocno znacenje vaseg pitanja.

Jajesam spanjolski arhitekt.

ORIS— Naravno, No,definirate li se, identiñcirate I i se, vidite

lí da postojí nesto poput spanjolske arhitekture? Mozemo li

razgovarati o arhitekturi u torn smislu? 1 ACB — Ne slazem se.

Raspravljamo ili razgovaramo o jeziku, rijecima, mehanizmu

za komuniciranje ¡deja, opcih ¡deja, Ali ovako - mozda ranije,

kada smo govorili o Kini - Kina je malo drugacija.Ali mislim,

na primjer, da europska arhitektura ima vise zajednickih rijeci

negó sto to imaju njezini jezici. Dobio sam tu etiketu spa-

njolskog arhitekta na isti nacin kao i etiketu minimalista.

ORIS — Andaluzijski arhitekt? 1 ACB — Mozda mi se to svida.

Roden sam u Valladolidu, starom glavnom gradu Spanjolske.

Zbog mnogo razloga, zbog rata, politike, moj otac je bio prot-

jeran u Cádiz so-ih godina. Bili smo vrlo sretni u Cadizu. To

je najstariji grad, kroz koji su prosli Fenicani, Rimljani, sve

kulture. To je mjesto gdje se Atlantski ocean srece s Medi-

teranom, upravo tu lezi Gibraltar. Vrlo je poseban. Meni je

zao sto Ijudi u Cadizu ne prepoznaju taj identitet. Vrlo su

Ijubazni, vrlo otvoreni, vrlo sretni. To je vrlo posebno mjesto

Obozavam Cádiz.

Ofíis— Kad zelite sutjeti, to ne znaci da ne stvaratearhitek-

turu. I A C B — Kad sam rekao da bihhtio sutjeti, tojeznacilo

sutjeti u usporedbi s drugima. Kad ja pokusavam sutjeti, ne bih

zelio to raditi na onaj nacin na koji to radi mnogo arhitekata.

Ja sam vrlo tast, nisam skroman, no bojim se da mnogo Ijudi

trci za tim da se pojavi negdje kako bi bili u svakom casopisu,

na nekom kongresu, u nekom gradu, na predavanju - medu

njima su neki od mojih vrlo dobrih prijatelja, a ne navodim

mena jer su svi dobro poznati. Ja volim puno íi tati , imam

ogroman broj knjiga. Imam vise knjiga poezije negó onih o

arhitekturi. I treba mi vremena, no nije da samo citam, nije

da samo radim na arhitekturi. Mislim da je potrebno zivjeti.

Nakon predavanja poveo sam svoje asistente i dugo, dugo

smo rucali. A nakon rucka smo rekli - zasto ne malo pica, il

vina ¡li kave i nastavili smo don ¡li 12 sati u noci, nastavili smo

razgovarati- i rekli smo: ovojezivot. To ne radimosvaki dan,

ali ponekada-zasto ne. Sutjeti ne znaci biti u pecini. Mislim

the city. How to place. Not about venustas, the function, but

about how to place. ltJs a bit, to compose but more than

compose. Actually it's very ¡nteresting to find the right place.

My bank, the big bank Caja de Granada and the new addition

- the bestthing is that they are very well positioned. You goto

Granada, from Alhambra you see the city, many buildings, and

or-ly my building-the bank-is there. Why? Because I créate

a podium, I créate two gardens, tricks. But finally, I think

it's mysterious. It's not mysterious; in fact it's very clever. I

think you must study, study, study.... It's like my father... my

father was a surgpon, I rempmber when I was a child he was

always studying, He was studying magazines in English from

the States about surgery. As children we opened the books

because of the naked women. My father speaks English but

not very well. He lived in a lost city, in Cádiz, in hospital but

he was always studying. And I said: my father is a wise man,

he continúes to study. It is necessary to study, to think, with

imperfection, with defects, etc.

ORIS — When you read Homer, in which language do you

read? 1 A C B — In Spanish. There is a nice story by Cervantes,

Don Quixote de ¡a Moncha. The Spanish writer was very se-

rious. He wrote perfectly, he was so sharp, so intelligent

that in 1612 when he wrote this Don Quixote, he immediately

ordered, commissioned to transíate it in English. By chance,

the same year Chapman was translating Homer into English.

One year after or before, I hate not speaking English fluently,

or why we don't nave a common language.... This Babel Pu-

nishment was very harsh, too harsh

OKis —Since you started discussing this issue of language,

do you see yourself as a Spanish architect in terms of cul­

tural continuity, belonging to certain intellectual ckcle or

whatever? 5 ACB — I don't understand exactly the meaning

of your question. I am a Spanish architect.

O R I S — Exactly. But do you define yourself, do you identify

yourself, do you see there is something called Spanish

architecture? Can we dtscuss architecture in these terms?

1 A C B — I don't agree, We are discussing or speaking about

language, words, the mechanism to communicate ¡deas,

general ideas. In this way, maybe before, when we spoke

about China, China is a bit d fferent. But I think, forexample,

European architecture has more common words than langua-

ges. I received the label in the same way as minimalist, Spanish

architect.

ORIS — Andalusian architect? 1 ACB — Maybe I like it. I was

born in Valladolid, the ancient capital of Spain. For many

reasons, because of the war, politics, my father was banished

to Cádiz in the fifties. And we were very happy in Cádiz. It

da to znaci pokusati biti sretan... Umjesto da napravim deset

zgrada svake godine, napravim tek tri, dvije... Zasto vise od

toga? To je kao s hranom. Mogu rucati i pojesti malo - no

ne mogu pojesti dvostruko. Malo manje ili malo vise, ali ne

dvostruko. 1 Zivotje samojedan. Imadosta nedostataka, uk-

Ijucuje dosta situacija, naravno da nije lagan. Ja opisujem zivot.

Ponekad je zivot komp lie irán, ima situacija kada se pati - u

redu, zivotjesttakav;jane pokusavam recidajesvedobro. Ne.

Svatko jedobar-pa, neznam. Ali valja pokusati biti normalan,

pokusati biti sretan, ne patiti bespotrebno. Potrebnoje misliti

o zivor.u.

s the oldest city where the Phoenicians, the Romans, every

culture passed through. It is the point where the Atlantic

Ocean and the Mediterranean meet, ¡t's exactly where Cibral-

tar is. It's very special. For me it's a pity because the people

there in Cádiz, they don't recognize the identity. They are very

kind, very open people, very happy. It's a very special place to

be. I adore Cádiz.

ORis — Whenyou wantto besilent, itdoesnotmeanyoudo

notmakearchitecture, 1 ACB — When I said I would líke tobe

silent, ¡t's to be silent in comparison. When I try to be silent, I

wonlrin'r likero be so in the same way as manyarrhirer.ts. I am

very vain, I am not humble, but I am afraid how many people

are running to appear here, in every magazine, congress, city,

lecture, among them are some of my very good friends, and I

don't quote the ñames because they are well known. I like to

read a lot, I have an enormous quantity of books. I have more

books of poetry than of architecture. And I need time, but

I am not only reading, only working in architecture. I think

it is necessary to live. After class I took my assistants and I

had a lunch, long, long, and after the lunch we said why not

a bit of liquor or wine or coffee and we continué at n or 12

at nig-it, we continué speaking, and we said: this is life. Not

for every day but sometímes why not. To be silent is not to

be like in a cave. I think it's to try to be happy.... Instead of

making ten buildings every year. you make only three, two....

Why more? It's like eating. I can have lunch and to take a bit

of food but not double. A bit more, a bit less, but not double.

1 Life is one time only. With a lot of defeets, a lot of situations,

of course it is not so easy. I am describing life. Sometimes

life is complicated, there are occasions to suffer, okay, life is

líke this but my attempt is not to say everything is good. No.

Everyone is good - I don't know. But to try to be normal, to

try to be happy, not to suffer needlessly. It is necessary to

think about life.