Center meeting 2010 in Braunschweig

Interview with Lama Ole Nydahl and Caty Hartung

at the center meeting 2010

Braunschweig, 30th October 2010

Lama Ole: We have changed the meditation on the 16th Karmapa in such a way that it is apparent to everyone that there are intentional pauses for concentration and it is not like at work where you click on one picture after the other on your computer. We go deeper, back into a world in which you could still think in an analogous way and could have inner images. Formerly, this way of meditating used to be the standard and I would like you to find your way back to this way. There are many beautiful and exciting elements in our meditations. If we take the time to go into the different levels a little bit, to let the different images and ideas arise in mind before we immediately click on to the next picture, we will get more out of it. Human beings can grasp a lot with their glance and can also grasp a lot on an intellectual level in a short period of time but they cannot experience very much during such a short time. This is what we now want to work with more.

Now, in the text of the meditation on the 16th Karmapa, you can see exactly where there should be a pause for thinking, observing or becoming aware. We need these pauses and we should take them in our meditation.

Question: Is it necessary to imagine the things in a visual manner or is it enough to know that enlightenment is immediately there when one thinks of it?

Lama Ole: In the time and culture in which the meditations were given one had so few outer impressions in one’s life that one even ascribed a high value to a piece of copper that one maybe owned. Under those kinds of circumstances, mind is under-challenged in its ability to perceive pictures. Images therefore become very important and it is easy to imagine things in a visual way.

Today, we are basically swamped with pictures from commercials, which means many of us work more with abstract ideas, like for example Hannah also did. One does not create pictures in one’s mind but simply knows what one is focusing on looks like. I use both: I like abstraction and I like images, too. However, exactly because we are maybe collectively losing the ability to create inner images, I would say you should try to put an emphasis on this ability. Start for example with the way Karmapa sits; make the images as colorful and vivid as you can.

Abstraction and visualization do not contradict one another. If you can also create visual images, this is useful: It lifts the energy streams in our body, which are otherwise on the level of common feelings, to a beyond-personal and ultimate level. The pauses between the different phases of the meditation give you the space to try this. Try to imagine what the crown looks like: It has a peak with a ruby. In the middle there is the sun and the moon and on the side there are the clouds. Call to mind how Karmapa really looked. Why should we lose the ability to visualize if we do not have to

lose it? It is important to have many skills. If there is only little time, one uses abstraction. One then knows: Space is insight and if one thinks of something it is immediately there. One then absorbs the blessing in this way. However, if one can also visualize, one enhances the effect of the meditation. So why not be rich and have both? Try it! The forms also have the meaning to raise the energy channels in our body, which usually work on a completely common level, to the level of the beyond-personal.

Question: Can you also tell us something about the history of the meditation on the 16th Karmapa?

Lama Ole: Hannah and I were very close to Karmapa. We were almost like his children. I was also his protector and he maybe did me the greatest honor when we were walking down from Swayambhu on a very narrow staircase. There, this 100 kilo man suddenly jumped on my back. There was no handrail that I could have held on to. My legs wobbled for a short moment but I then carried him down the entire way back. That was one of the tests with which he checked whether it would be us that would bring his teachings into the West.

We had a very strong connection with the 16th Karmapa and he gave this meditation to Hannah and me, which is actually an empowerment rather than a meditation, an empowerment on the 16th Karmapa. He thought that due to our devotion we would be the right ones to carry on this teaching. Each time when we were together with him he gave us big, printed pieces of firm paper, always with this meditation and said: Pass this meditation on to your friends, work with it and make sure that it always stays contemporary and accessible for the people. In the meditation on the 16th Karmapa, a lot of things have then been shifted over the years. In the beginning, the text contained a lot of gold and a lion throne. This did not really fit in the meditation. Previously, the three lights were only used all at the same time. Then I said to Karmapa that was too much at once and suggested that we could first take the three lights separately and only then together. He agreed with this. Working together with him, we in this way adjusted the meditation more and more and the main emphasis was moved further and further towards the end. First, the main attention was on the traditional elements such as the gold and the jewels. Then we started to emphasize the three lights by meditating on

them first separately and then together. Finally we focused on the radiant space of mind itself and from there we go into the world with the blessing and work with it. Today, our main point is probably that we behave like Buddhas until we become Buddhas. Everything else we use to bless and strengthen this point again and again. I think that the 16th Karmapa made us truly independent and gave us a precious method by giving us this meditation and the instruction to always keep it up to date.

Question: The German speaking centers have been the big power and motor for the activities worldwide for a long time. Are we now at a point where this is changing?

Lama Ole: We have noticed that the students do not talk to each other as intensively as we had actually expected them to. A lot of knowledge was not passed on from the people who come to the courses to the people who were not there. Thus, a lot of knowledge is missing in the centers. I actually think that securing and solidifying our work is now the most important so that we do not lose the orientation. Certainly new people will continue to come to us and the lectures will attract as many people as before but now it is about securing the basis. The old ones have the experience and it is important that they do not disappear from life in the center after their third child or their fourth position in a supervisory board but that they still are connected with the center, that they come to us, know about the development and share their experience with the others in the center. It is good for them because they do not forget and good for us so that we do not lose our foundation for working together in the centers.

What we did, what we experienced, what happened is huge and special! To throw this work away like an old history book would be very unintelligent. We had very special teachers: the 16th Karmapa, Kalu Rinpoche, Gendun Rinpoche, Tenga Rinpoche and Lopon Tsechu Rinpoche. More than half of you have not met Lopon Tsechu Rinpoche! Those of you who got the transmissions, who experienced something that had meaning, that has touched you, those of you who

understood something: This belongs to all beings and not only to you! This

transmission you really have to bring into the centers in a living way. Maybe you have an evening of memories about the history of the center or something like that a few times a month, so that everyone can take part in the magic.

We have accomplished a lot in a very short period of time. The Christians only grew up after several centuries of persecution and even then they were small groups at first. We have only been working for thirty to forty years and are already big and have a lot of influence, which is even still increasing. Every second German already believes in rebirth! And because what is happening is so meaningful, what you have received is precious and easy to lose. We will not see teachers again for many years like the ones who were the first to come here. This is why the experience to have met them is something very precious. Please bring into the centers what you have heard and seen and what you know. We must not lose it.

This would be like having a huge tree and cutting its roots: At some point there will be a gust of wind and the tree will fall over. Each time something falls apart, it happens in the same way: The roots disappear, the experience disappears, things are up in the air and lose their power. This is why I ask you: Have such a history evening once a month during which those who have experienced something pass on this experience and in this way bless the whole center.

The German speaking area has a particularly large responsibility because it is you who built everything up. From here, the work spread into the East and into the South and from there it is continuing more and more into the West. Here, in the German speaking countries is the big, pulsating heart of Buddhism. Danes are very intuitive and funny but they cannot work together the way you can. Your ability to work together, to create clear goals and plans is unique. This is why the German speaking area is the place where the knowledge about the past is stored. In France, also miracles and fantastic things happened but because they took place in monasteries it is not so easy to identify with them.

We are lay Buddhists and therefore it is extremely important to us to keep this knowledge alive. Invite the different holders of experience from the other centers, talk to all members and invite them to come back again. Ask them whether they would like to come to the center and talk about the old times. Tell them that we have noticed that we are about to lose our roots and about to turn more into a general movement and would like to rediscover the depth of the blessing. They will be very happy to be in the familiar environment among like-minded people. There are many people from these times but most of them now occupy themselves more with worldly things. It would be good to regain a connection and to bring them into the centers again in order to be able to participate in their experience.

This is a completely open and honest request: You have knowledge that we do not have. Please come and share it with us!

Caty: I think it would also be useful if those who are in the centers now asked much more often how and why we do things and listen to how Lama Ole does them. We come into the centers at the moment and wonder what is going on there. Why are there many things that people do not know anymore? This applies to many different levels, be it meditation or practical things: what Lama Ole eats or does not eat, how a center is built up and organized, who knows or does not know a certain thing. A lot of things are reinvented without need. This is a waste of time and – as Ole just said – the blessing disappears. Actually, we have relied a lot on you in the past ten years. We said: Germany or the German speaking area is stable. It was always absolutely clear to us that there nothing could happen and nothing will shake. At the moment, we are not so sure anymore. Sometimes it would also be good to get a feedback of what is going on in the centers.

Lama Ole: Otherwise we will turn into an organization like a sports club. What we have and what others do not have is the enlightened roots. Karmapa and many of the other great Rinpoches – and a couple who now live hidden away here and there – have a real experience of the nature of mind. This is something totally different than finding Buddhism logical and clear. This has real roots and power and that is what we want to carry on. However, it can only go on if the ones who have experienced something convey it and if the others get inspired by it.

Caty: You have to travel with us to allow this to happen. Previously, there were almost only Germans travelling with us. Now, the tours are full of Czechs, Poles, Hungarians and Russians who travel with us and absorb the transmission. And where are you? You have to travel, too! This is a huge gift and later on you will not understand why you did not do it.

Lama Ole: The 16th Karmapa himself traveled for half of his life. He was constantly traveling to his different monasteries and centers. Since travelling is part of our transmission, it is good if you travel with us and keep the connection in this way. We forget that we are the only ones who have connections, transmissions and insights that are permanent and carry true blessing. The Gelugpas work more on an intellectual level. The three old lineages work with spiritual transmission but in no lineage will you find accomplishers like you find in ours. Even if they came from the Nyingma lineage they also always had the Kagyu transmission. Thanks to this blessing – this power – we managed to build up everything so quickly. That we are growing so quickly is due to the internet, our good education and the languages that we speak. Our work is like a big tree with secure, solid roots and therefore it is important that we strengthen our connections by travelling. You all go to the summer course already but I also advise you to travel to other courses.

Question: And how you do see the role of the German Center Meeting; particularly in relation to what you have just said?

Lama Ole: The power is still here. But it is growing very strongly in the Slavic countries, too. The people there take things a little too seriously, but they have confidence and depth, and they are becoming more and more powerful. But before, the lamas used to almost only visit the German-speaking regions.

Caty: I think that the German Center Meeting is one of the most important events of the year. That’s why it’s all streamed. So that all the centers in the world can directly experience the entire event.

The main problem with the German Center Meeting is probably that of taking what happens here back to the centers. If you only give a two hour report there, of course you can’t say as much as what we experience and share with each other here in 48 hours. We think that there is a difference between passing on information and responsibly passing on the transmission that you have received. That is a topic that we have been working on all these years, again and again. The center meeting is not an information event, rather it is something where transmission is given directly, where it can be received directly, and therein lies the responsibility of those who represent the centers.

Question: How does the teacher-student relationship change over time?

Lama Ole: Karmapa showed Hannah and me some kind of miracle every day. He would always surprise us or show us a new dimension or way of seeing things, and in the end we found it totally natural for Karmapa to do this. We work broadly, with all levels of human development. When somebody is your teacher, sometimes he is a mirror for one quality, and sometimes for another. At the beginning you find it quite magical, but

then it changes and you think: “The teacher is just doing his job.” But the fact that it becomes less dramatic doesn’t mean that it is less effective. One can even see it in me, although I don’t do anything to appear particularly holy, to make myself stand out or to behave strangely to make everyone think I have an especially holy background. At the beginning people think that it’s fantastic that I can work for so long without having slept, but over time friendships arise and people simply wish me more sleep and understand that I am working for them. The magic that you experience when you only encounter the blessing on its own disappears, but when the experience of the blessing turns into a permanent feeling, the development becomes broader.

The only people we have actually lost are those who worked against us on a personal level. In order to prevent somebody who works against us from feeling uncomfortable, I immediately use the Mahayana level in such cases: if people aren’t able to see anything lasting, meaningful or significant, I try to make them think: “At least they are doing something good!” If they still don’t like something about me, they can at least understand that we are not doing any harm, either. If they can’t do that, they have great difficulties – as far as the development of their mind is concerned – and you should know that that really hurts me.

Question: You have just stated that we need to be careful that our roots don’t disappear. So there has been a development that for some reason the old friends are distant. Has anything changed there in the connection between the teacher and the student?

Lama Ole: Nothing has changed in our relationship. When we see each other, it is the same as always. The conditioned world is the great enemy here. One lives in one’s own house, the car has to be as big as that of the neighbor, one surrounds oneself with people who don’t have dharma and one has hardly any time for meditation. Then one finds oneself in the danger zone and should then act. I don’t change; people are absorbed by the big conditioned world, and that’s where we have to help them. They must always feel that they can come back to the center. They can still stock up on lasting meaning amongst the everyday things and bring that into the world. We must develop more awareness for these changes, always get in touch with old friends and invite them. It is easy to be swallowed up by the world and suddenly you are old, death is near, and then suddenly you want to have values that you can take with you. But then it is too late to lead a life full of development. If one has Phowa, at least one has the blessing and the surety. That’s the reason why I like giving Phowa so much. But we have to at least hold the view. Read “The Great Seal” every now and then, look at every chapter and ask yourselves what it means to you. Ask: “how can I make sure I don’t just get older, but also wiser?” Our task is that of helping people to do so.

Question: Is that mainly the centers’ job? What type of transmission do the centers give?

Lama Ole: The centers are the producers and the consumers of it. When a center manages to get a few old friends together and talk about the time when, for example, Kalu Rinpoche went to Munich and everyone was thoroughly impressed and was given

a Tibetan name, then one can experience the buzz from back then. Then the new friends have shared in the experience of the old friends, and the transmission is passed on. That means that people keep talking about the great teachers we have had and about how it will continue and how great the 17th Karmapa is. The center is the producer in that it brings the energies together because people know the center and because it is the place where people meet and because it keeps the connections to the old friends. It is the consumer because everyone comes into the blessing stream and develops better and more powerfully than they could otherwise.

Question: When we talk about the centers, it is often something abstract. Does this refer to the experienced people, the supposed center leaders? Who is responsible for them? You have to go and get people, as nothing happens by itself.

Lama Ole: The center is the power field for those who are at all open to the Diamond Way. If someone has not worked with their mind in a previous life and somebody tells them that mind is clear light, they don’t understand that. The fact that we are here at all and are interested in Diamond Way Buddhism is very rare in the world. That’s why we are automatically an elite. People with probably the best karma live in the West where you get the best education and the greatest idealism. Everyone who is interested in the Diamond Way is a part of our centers, gets something, gives something, gives others the opportunity to make a connection and shares his or her experiences. That is how we have grown: always through human contact and meeting people. We can only touch people if we have been touched ourselves. We can only tell them something if not only words but also an experience is transmitted. We can only do that if we have been touched ourselves and have let it grow in ourselves.

Question: What are the characteristics of a good student and a good teacher?

Lama Ole: The teacher gives what he can and the student wants to learn as much as he can. The teacher is totally honest about what he can do, what he knows and what he doesn’t know. The student then says what he wants to realize, and if he is a good student, he does it for the good of all and so that he can one day pass it on himself and take on the teacher’s role. Honesty about what one has to offer is the basic requirement, however. What I want to develop in you is fearlessness, joy and active compassion, because if you are joyful and fearless, all other qualities will be able to develop in you without hindrance. If we are always unsure and afraid, nothing develops. But if we are full of power and openness, we can do anything and everyone is a king. The student must have this will, this power and openness, and the teacher has to be the best mirror possible and try to show what the students can develop.

Question: How do you know when you have found your teacher?

Lama Ole: When it fits. When you are in trouble and you think that you would like to have the teacher with you. That’s also why we have two types of teachers: the lineage teacher and the root teacher. The lineage teacher holds the transmission: if Karmapa and Sharmapa were suddenly gone, the transmission would disappear. Those who

work for the lineage teachers are the ones who give the different methods, who teach and who also give daily examples of how to act. Out of these people, the root lama is the one who shows you the nature of mind and whom one would like to have by one’s side when things get tough. For some people that is also Hannah, whom many see as a mild, yet really pervasive protector. Her influence today is perhaps greater than when she was still alive. The work that you showed at the market place is wonderful: your devotion and your openness are there and we can do even more if you have more roots.

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Caty: In our countries we have enormous surplus for all of that. What we produce is enormous. But what we would like to see would be for not so many new people to invent something, for example, that the red line isn’t broken or that they cut off the head of a Buddha form on the posters. Over the years we have developed many ideas about how and why something is done, but this knowledge isn’t reaching the new generations.

Lama Ole: Few people take on the responsibility of saying something to the new people.

Caty: Few people say that we do a certain thing like this and not like that, or new generations say that they do it differently anyway and now want to do it their own way. Yet whole previous generations have thought a lot about how something is done, but these ideas are not passed on to the next generation. We are thinking about how we can manage that. We do know that it’s difficult to talk to us, but we still need this!

We have decided the following: in the future we’ll be at the Europe Center a lot working on books and doing retreats. We will open these retreats every few days and be available in the evenings after 10pm for discussions with groups, teams, regions or countries. There you can present your work to us and ask questions. That way we’ll have a time slot of two to three hours where we can get to know the centers and projects, as well as the new generations.

Additionally there will also be center days on which Lama Ole won’t give a public lecture in the evening, but instead you will have the opportunity internally to ask Ole questions that you have prepared in your region and to share some time.

We need this exchange and the new people have to hear how the old friends

already made decisions with a lot of love and wisdom. We made a lot of decisions with Hannah, Lama Ole and many Rinpoches. It’s very valuable for you to turn up and not have to invent everything from scratch. That’s also the reason for the transmission weekends at the EC. Whoever was there the last time, when Maggie talked about Lopön Tsechu, learned a lot. We also had a transmission weekend about the 16th Karmapa, and that was very touching. There were only six or seven students there who had even met him, yet it was still a rich exchange of experience. It makes sense to utilize such offers.

Lama Ole: It’s about human growth. Our culture has always given off energy externally. As a result we have democracy, a high standard of living, big houses and fantastic machines. In Tibet, a high percentage of the population was concerned with recognizing their own mind and working with it. That’s why Tibetans achieved results that are extraordinary. There are about a billion Buddhists in the world, if we count those in China who are traditionally Buddhist, but not allowed to practice. Out of them, there are six million Tibetans, and out of them there are three to four million Khampas from Eastern Tibet. Out of these, only a few hundred thousand had a proper education; amongst them were the high teachers, who have given us a lot of the exciting Buddhist teachings in the last 50 years.

The methods are important and the transmission is important. They are like a relay baton which is handed over from one runner to the next, which was carried through India for 1500 years, through Tibet for 1000 years, and which is now coming to us today. We have to be open for this transmission and we have to understand whatever we can of it. One of the reasons why we are so strong here is that Hannah and I tried for a very long time not to separate form and meaning in Buddhism. We were touchingly loyal and really tried to keep things as Tibetan as possible. For at least 20 years we strictly held onto everything we had received from our teachers, because we thought that we couldn’t see what was meaningful and what wasn’t. It wasn’t until we were quite sure that we began, with Caty’s help, to change things. Our lamas and our lamas’ mistakes also showed us that not everything from Tibet is perfect, rather that there are also political and human games there, too. From that moment on we began to take on responsibility.

But we were always deeply grateful to our teachers from our whole heart. I see pictures of Karmapa nowadays and have tears of gratitude in my eyes. At the end of our lives we will all be very grateful when we think of Karmapa, the lineage and our teachers. Gratitude holds us together. No teacher can show us something that we don’t already have. We all have Buddha nature. No teacher can do more than remove the hindrances that keep us from recognizing our timeless essence. Space is knowledge. We are all Buddhas. We just have to remove the veils that keep us from recognizing that. But particularly because that

which we see is so beautiful, because that which we recognize is so great and beyond all concepts, this gratitude becomes stronger and stronger, even though we are actually only looking at our own face. It is important to maintain this gratitude and openness and, at the same time, to check what a situation is really like before we act. Our job is that of passing on the essence of the transmission of the lineage. Then, out of all the feelings, we are best protected by that of gratitude. That also goes for enthusiasm, which arises when you have been given something and have occasionally been able to pass it on.

Diamond Way Buddhism is not simply a place that you can visit like any other; it encompasses everything, and it is magical what can happen to you when you open up to the stream of enlightenment, if you can absorb it and become more and more one with it. It is fantastic how many human levels are awakened, how many possibilities arise, and it is that which we share. You can only receive that with gratitude. Everyone can and should be critical and check whether the teachers do and say the same thing, but when we work with the methods, then it should always be with the thought that countless good people have brought this knowledge here so that we can now use it.

Question: How can we help new people to get close to you?

Lama Ole: In the centers there should be people who can approach others. We should never forget that the first step into a center is perhaps the most difficult step in the new visitors’ lives, because here they are admitting that they want to learn something that they haven’t been able to learn by themselves. That puts pressure on the ego. So if visitors come to the center for the first time, they shouldn’t be pushed, and should have the feeling that it is completely natural to go to the center. They should see that you are there yourself, because you think that Buddhism is logical and not embarrassing and doesn’t have any strange gods. You show them the books and quietly create space in which they can feel good.

Then they can go back to their friends and say that they checked out the Buddhists and that it was pleasant. This way you build up a connection and after a while they start to learn and notice that they are gradually benefitting from it. They understand

that the teachings on rebirth aren’t so difficult if you understand that the brain is not the radio station, rather the radio receiver. They develop further, and then others start to notice that they don’t get upset so easily, that they can say “both - and”, that they can stay on top of things while others are caught up in their problems. Every one of us represents the Buddha. Every one of us could be the first Buddhist somebody meets. That is exactly why we have to keep our style, shouldn’t get upset, and should be good examples. If we can’t do that, we are taking away their opportunity of coming into the transmission stream and being able to develop. That also means that we practice and develop ourselves and don’t just get older, but also wiser, that we allow ourselves to be

enthused and to be moved. We will all get old and sick, and we all have to die, but if we learn something quickly, we can certainly do something good for many beings. That is always a pleasant thought. We have the best conditions, the best methods and the best teachers for it.

Question: One doesn’t seem to be able to get close to you automatically. How can we practically support new people getting close to you? Traveling with you is one thing, but are there other concrete possibilities?

Caty: It’s a good idea to introduce new people to us several times so that we can really meet each other. This way the new friends can make a connection with us through the trust that the old ones place in them. Traveling with us or going to the Europe Center is also a good opportunity to do this. Here, for example, you can cut down trees with Lama Ole, and he can get to know you very well while doing so: he can see how you get involved and how you behave when the tree falls. In order for us to really get to know you, we need the exchange with you and have to experience you 24 hours a day, and not just when you are listening. Lama Ole wants to see how you carry suitcases, or how you react when the train doesn’t arrive or there are no beds at night. In situations that are a bit outside what you are used to you will get to know your mind, and we also need such situations if we are to get to know you.

Question: Which role do the traveling teachers play in connection with the transmission? On the one hand, you said that we should rely on them. On the other hand, you talked very critically about them in Darmstadt. What can we expect from the traveling teachers? What are they supposed to provide?

Lama Ole: As you know, I have many responsibilities everywhere and little time. With some traveling teachers it was actually the case that I did not pick them myself but that they were recommended to me. The ones I pick myself are the ones I trust. There are different kinds of traveling teachers: There are the teachers in the center who know

their group well, who know the Buddha’s teachings well and are able to use their surplus for others and to give teachings. They should also remain calm if sometimes people do not believe them. Additionally, there are then those teachers who would also be able to make a good impression in a difficult interview. They have to be well-educated, have to speak several languages and be politically interested. These people we can also deploy in important situations when special abilities are needed.

There are also different levels of development with the traveling teachers: Someone gives good ten minute talks, then also longer talks and is then invited by the neighboring centers. Some of these people are then invited from further away and more often and are prepared to fulfill these wishes of the centers. Then they come to us, travel with us and we check how they work. For me, it depends the most on life experience – not only on whether someone can teach but also on whether someone has the attitude that will help a boxer still want to win in the third and fourth round. Among these again, there are some that are also very convincing on a political level because they have a lot of experience in explaining things and because they know how the different things are done.

Question: In Darmstadt, you spoke of failure generally in relation to the traveling teachers. Apparently, the result does not correspond to your expectations of them although you picked them? According to which criteria do you pick the traveling teachers?

Lama Ole: Traveling teacher is simply a title that one has to work for: Who does not keep educating oneself by regularly coming to the courses and traveling with us, has failed as a traveling teacher. You can compare this to parenthood: One has a beautiful child but when it gets lazy one has to take tough action. If I do this, it does not mean that I exclude someone from my heart. As a traveling teacher one has an honorable position and an important task and therefore one also has to invest in a ticket to a course from time to time in order to learn something – if one does not do that one has failed. From my Danish understanding, “failing” simply means that one has made a mistake that one has to remedy. As a teacher one has the duty to keep educating oneself and to develop. One cannot rest on what one has achieved. Who has taken responsibility, must also be able to carry it. Traveling teacher is not a title of honor but a title of work.

Caty: There are no aptitude tests, Lama Ole does not control how his students give teachings. He wants the traveling teachers to come to him and the traveling teacher meetings one to three times a year. If they do not appear at all for several years in a row, if they do not travel with us although Ole wishes that, if they do not come to the Europe Center, then we experience this as them having no interest.

Lama Ole: The centers decide who they invite, but in order to be able to work well in the centers and inspire people you simply have to be up to date. When we were driving Kalu Rinpoche through the centers in 1973, he said: “One can give money or food to the people and that will help them for some time. One can give them an education and

that will help them for one lifetime. However, if one gives them teachings that bring them in connection with the nature of their mind, this will help them for this life, for death, for what comes after death and for all future lives.” So you are sitting here with the biggest teaching assignment there is. You give the people knowledge that will help them always and everywhere until they reach

enlightenment. Being a teacher and wanting to do something for the others means that one has to pick oneself up to travel, to ask one’s questions and to inform oneself about the newest developments. You traveling teachers have responsibility, you get great honors, you are recognized everywhere. Therefore, you must not reduce your efforts, you have to learn and stay inside the stream – otherwise you will soon be the old gentlemen who sit around and have no time anymore for the center but are happy with their traveling teacher title. That does not work: Being a traveling teacher is a duty!

Caty: At the very beginning, Ole said something very important: It is a completely wrong development if the traveling teachers are recommended to Lama Ole. This is not our tradition. It is always the teacher who asks the student to teach. My experience is that whenever this happened, a difficult relationship between Lama Ole and the traveling teacher in his function arose.

If there are difficulties, he immediately remembers that the traveling teacher was actually not teaching on his behalf. It is you who are carrying the responsibility at this moment, because when you praise someone so much, Ole cannot really say no. Please stop this, do not recommend anyone as a traveling teacher – this always leads to difficulties. I also do not do this myself. Let the Lama find the talents himself, no one can do that as well as he can.

Lama Ole: I do not judge the people but try to find a suitable job for everyone. We are all raw material and I try to find a way that everyone can develop in the best way. It is important to me that you take part in our courses and learn from them. Everyone wants to say something new but it is always with the help of the very simple Buddhist teachings that one develops. Also, it is important to not only understand the teachings intellectually but to let them fall from the head to the heart and to change through them as only in this way do they get real meaning. One can have read and know by heart a lot of books and one can still be confused on an inner level. The basic teachings on cause and effect, the twelve topics that we have published as videos, really help us and are important and precious! Please do not think that you have understood the four basic thoughts just because you know them by heart. Only once you penetrate the meaning, will wisdom arise.

All Buddhas are in essence the same but the illusion of an own self will only be attacked by pushing the same spot again and again. The reason that we stay with the

meditation on the 16th Karmapa is that we can force the ego into a corner and it cannot protect itself anymore. If one has reached a point where the ego feels bad, one should keep working with the same method until one has completely defeated it. The ego, however, does not want to lose control over the inner processes and if we keep giving it something different and special, we let it escape from the corner that we have just forced it into. If one, on the contrary, keeps using the same method, one realizes that everything that is difficult is a purification and that beyond-personal states of openness are a blessing and through this one develops. The Tibetans always say that one used to get one teaching in Old India with which one became enlightened. Then the teachings came to Tibet and one received 100 empowerments but only few become enlightened. We shall dig deep at one spot and progress.

The most important thing that our meditations are supposed to give us is that we never leave the pure land and that we experience everything as joyful, full of meaning and pure. Many people like forms of energy and light. It is easy to experience them as pure. Their form is perfect and they do not have political opinions that we might dislike. However, the step to a state in which one experiences everything as pure, also the policeman that has stopped us for speeding, is big. With Guru Yoga, the first jump is big: To see a human being, for example the 16th Karmapa, as pure in our meditation is difficult. In the beginning, I did not like the way he ate or how he bought shoes – everything else I could see as enlightened. It is difficult to see human beings as pure because they have weaknesses. If one is however able to do this, it is very easy to also see the policeman as pure. It is easier to talk to him and one can deal with the situation more easily. This is the level it is about, this is why Guru Yoga is the means. If one manages to see the teacher on a high level, everything else is a gift. Between Marpa and Naropa there was a situation that shows this: Naropa was giving Marpa teachings and suddenly the Buddha form Oh Diamond (Hevajra) in union appeared in space, radiant like a mountain of sapphires in the light of a thousand suns. Naropa asked Marpa: “Who will you great first?” Naropa certainly looked like all old Indians of that time and Marpa thought: “I see Naropa every day but this Buddha looks interesting.” And he greeted the buddha form. Naropa, however, let the form melt into his heart and said: “This is a mistake. With us, the teacher is everything!”

The meditation on the teacher and the deep and close connection from teacher to student are the reason why our lineage has become so big and why you sit here now closely pushed together and listen. The transmission and the power of our lineage are comprised of the pure view, devotion and openness towards others and the wish to pass on this gift. This is the reason for our growth and something that we have better command of than others.

Question: Which concrete means and methods do we apply in our centers and why? Which ones do we consciously not apply? What about Medicine Buddha or the practice of the Green Liberatrice in this context?

Lama Ole: The meditation on Medicine Buddha we mainly use in a private setting. One does it for a special reason, namely to help oneself or others to overcome an illness. One does this meditation as the need arises.

In our centers, we do the practices that lead to enlightenment. If one needs it, one does the practices that lengthen life (Buddha of Limitless Life) or remove illnesses (Medicine Buddha). These meditations are not for keeping illnesses away but for supporting the healing of existing illnesses. Their aim is to gain as much time as possible to do meditations that will directly lead to enlightenment, as for example the meditation on the 8th or the 16th Karmapa. The difference is that the one group of meditations work in a supporting way, while the other leads to the goal.

Caty: Naturally, one begins with the meditation on the 16th Karmapa. If one goes deeper, one does the refuge meditation and then the foundational practices. If one has finished these, the meditation on the 8th Karmapa follows. One gets the Mahamudra teachings and does Black Coat every day. This is 100% Diamond Way, the way Lama Ole wishes we apply the methods. Additionally, there are the Phowa courses.

We apply all other meditations at different occasions. This can be individually, in the center or during courses, during weekends, retreats or as 24 hour meditations. If I remember correctly, Lama Ole said that if you want to do Loving Eyes, you should do so after the meditation on the 16th Karmapa. He advised to do Medicine Buddha during weekend retreats and if needed. Nyungne is also a meditation you do in retreat. You always do the Clear Light meditation by yourselves and never in the centers. Limitless Life, we actually only do in connection with the Phowa. The practice on Liberatrice is also an individual practice. Only for some places, it was given by some Lamas as the center practice. All other centers, in an ideal case, only use the Karmapa meditation and the foundational practices.

Lama Ole: You can do Medicine Buddha when you need it. But you can only overcome the ego if you time and time again aim at the same spot. In Diamond Way, one follows the teacher and through that one gets the whole blessing of the transmission and the empowerments that the teacher has making sure one develops quickly. Sutra is the intellectual overview, in Tantra one changes directly. This is why we use the meditation on the teacher. All Karmapas gave methods that fit with the conditions at the given time and that gave their students the possibility to use their strong energy field. This is why Guru Yoga is our most important means. It contains everything else.

There is a big difference between the Gelugpas, who are the state religion and government of Tibet, and the three old schools, who were there several hundred years before the Gelugpas. The first Dalai Lama lived at the time of the 6th Karmapa. With the Gelugpas, everything took place in the big monastery schools. One was taught compassion, wisdom and power, first through concepts and ideas. Then one saw that one’s own lama, the Dalai Lama, was very compassionate and this is why one saw him as an emanation of Loving Eyes. In the three old schools, this was different: There, one saw a Lama, felt attracted to him and had the wish to become like him. The qualities of this special teacher were the point of reference and everything else was an emanation of the teacher. In this way, Loving Eyes was the love of the teacher, the Wisdom Buddha his wisdom, Liberatrice his motherly power and Black Coat his protective power. The teacher is the starting point and conveys the experiences.

Question: What makes our Diamond Way different from the other Vajrajana directions? Is it exclusively concentrating on Guru Yoga? How would you compare us to the Nyingmas, Sakyas and also to the Kagyu Buddhists in France?

Lama Ole: There are many things we have in common. For the Nyingmapas, Guru Rinpoche is their central point, which we experience as not separated from Karmapa. With the Sakyapas, Sakya Trizin expresses his possibilities and his power through the Wisdom Buddha.

For all, the Lama is the source of the Yidams: He has blessing, he can touch one and warm one and give one the feeling that the thing is important. He himself is also the Yidam, he can connect his students to their buddha nature through meditation. If on top of that, he is not politically correct, he also has the power to be able to protect. If one thinks of him, his power field becomes alive and one is protected. This is what in our case Karmapa provides and whoever responds and opens up to this, develops Karmapa’s qualities – this is transmission.

Caty: Karmapa and Sharmapa have by the way changed the program for the Kagyu Buddhists who work in France in Dhagpo. They give the practitioners more time for the many meditations, which they used to learn in the three year retreats. The six Yogas of Naropa are now only practiced in the third three year retreat. They noticed that the speed in which the single points followed each other did not bring the desired results. As the three year retreats are not suitable for many, they have also expanded their program. They now also direct themselves to lay people who can do shorter retreats or one year retreats there. This is a big change and Karmapa and Sharmapa work on this new program each time they visit Dhagpo.

Question: How can we secure our transmission long-term? What kind of conditions do we need for this? Do we need traveling teachers, boards of our associations and people that are responsible for our centers?

Lama Ole: The most important things are friendship and trust, that we like each other and like meditating together. If there are people sitting together who are connected

through friendship and trust, the things will develop in the right way. Still, it is completely clear that we also need people who bring in more time, energy and experience and who want to learn more than others. We work in a meritocratic way on many levels. This means that the voice of the one who knows more also has more weight. Someone who meditates more, who is trustworthy, who the friends like to listen to, and who knows what he is talking about and does not only try to make himself interesting, who shows human growth, will naturally be someone who leads centers and makes sure that human development is carried on in the center.

Question: We do ten minute talks, have traveling teachers visiting us and watch your videos. Does it make sense to discuss what was said or is it better to only listen?

Lama Ole: Please, we are not a religion of belief but a religion of experience. If one can fully absorb the things, this is good. If one has to ask questions for this to happen, this is also good. Questions should be answered. Things should however not be over-discussed, otherwise the blessing is gone. However, one should certainly ask about whatever stands in the way of experiencing the thing. And if there are a couple of older ones around who can then add their experience, this is very meaningful. There should be a good feeling and it should fit. In the end, it is all the art of what is possible.

New people should not give 10 minute talks. There, one maybe has read something and put it together on an intellectual level but there is no experience and no maturity behind it. People should learn something first and listen and then it continues on. If people come in who do not know anything but want to talk big, we tell them that we only talk to clarify the things and otherwise we meditate. After all, the friends have been around for years.