transcript – adventures in ayahuasca & psychedelic ... · bulletproof radio dennis mckenna...

© The Bulletproof Executive 2013

Transcript – Adventures in Ayahuasca & Psychedelic Medicine with Dennis McKenna - #329

Bulletproof Radio Dennis McKenna #329

2

Warning and Disclaimer

The statements in this report have not been evaluated by the FDA (U.S. Food & Drug Administration). Information provided here and products sold on bulletproofexec.com and/or upgradedself.com and/or betterbabybook.com are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. The information provided by these sites and/or by this report is not a substitute for a face-to-face consultation with your physician, and should not be construed as medical advice of any sort. It is a list of resources for further self-research and work with your physician. We certify that at least one statement on the above-mentioned web sites and/or in this report is wrong. By using any of this information, or reading it, you are accepting responsibility for your own health and health decisions and expressly release The Bulletproof Executive and its employees, partners, and vendors from from any and all liability whatsoever, including that arising from negligence. Do not run with scissors. Hot drinks may be hot and burn you.

If you do not agree to the above conditions, please do not read further and delete this document.


3

Speaker1: BulletproofRadio,astateofhighperformance.

Speaker2: You'relisteningtoBulletproofRadiowithDaveAsprey.

Dave: Today'scoolfactofthedayisthatforthousandofyears,Amazonnativeshavebeenmaking

ayahuasca,whichisapsychedelicthatthey'veusedintheirmedicineceremonies,andsomethingthatIfirstusedalmost20yearsagointhePeruvianforestwithashaman.Whatyouprobablydon'tknowisthatofthe40,000plantspeciestheycouldhavechosen,somehowtheyknewtomixtheayahuascavineandleavesfromashrubtomakethemedicine.TheayahuascavinehaschemicalsknownasmonoamineoxidaseinhibitorsthatletyourbodyabsorbtheDMTfromtheleaves.Withoutthisinhibitor,theDMTwouldbedestroyedbythedigestivestuffinyourgut,andyoufeelnoeffectsfromtheDMTatall.Thenativessaytheplantsrevealtothemhowtomaketheayahuasca.Literally,ifyouaskawell-trainedshaman,they'llsay,"Well,theplantstalktomeandtellmewhattouse,"whichisprettydarnprofound.Eitherthat,orthey'reallcrazy.Youalsohavetoaskyourself,"Howdidacrazypersonpick1outof40,000shrubs?"Hmm.Thatdoesn'tsoundcrazytome.Itsoundsinterestingandworthyofscientificdiscourse.

Beforewegetintotoday'sinterview,ifyouhaven'thadachancetocheckoutBulletproofUpgradedCoconutCharcoal,youtotallyshould.ThisissomethingthatIcarefullyformulated.Weusecharcoalfromcoconuts,andthisisthefinestsizedparticleyoucanget,muchfinerthanwhatyouwouldnormallyget.Whatcharcoaldoes,ithashugeamountsofsurfaceareathatelectricallyattractstoxinsinthegut.Becauseoneteaspoonofthishasasurfaceareaequaltosomethinglikeafootballfield,ifyouweretoflattenoutthemolecules,itcanabsorbalotofbadstuffinthegut,includingpharmaceuticals.Infact,ifyoutooktheactivatedcharcoalandthenyoudranksomeayahuasca,youwouldn'thavemuchofanexperienceatallbecausetheactivatedcharcoalwouldabsorbthemedicineintheplant.It'saverypowerfulformofdetoxandsomethingthatIuseifI'mgoingtodrinkalcohol,whichIdon'tdothatoften,andsomethingthatIuseifI'mgoingtogoeatoutatarestaurantthatIknowisgoingtohavestuffinthefoodthatIprobablyshouldn'tbeeating.

Thisisactuallyaprofoundandvery,veryoldthingthat'susedfordetoxinmuchoftheworld.Iverymuchvalueit.It'stheonlyoneyoucangetlikeitonthemarket.It'salsoacidwashed,whichremovesalltracesofheavymetalsthattendtobeconcentratedwhenyou'reburningsomethinglikecoconutshellsinordertomakethisveryfineparticleofcharcoal.Prettycoolthing,andit'stheoppositeofwhatasupplementis.Supplementsaddthingsin.Thistakesawaythebadstuff,whichissometimeseasier.

Today'sguestiswell-known.He'sDr.DennisMcKenna,afoundingboardmemberoftheHeffterResearchInstitute,anethnopharmacologist,aresearchpharmacognisist,alecturer,andanauthor,andoneoftheleadingexpertsinthetherapeuticusesofpsychoacticmedicinesderivedfromnature.He'sakeyorganizerandparticipantintheHoascaProject,aninternationalbio-medicalstudyofayahuascainBrazil.He'salegendarybio-hackerandbrotherofthewell-knownTerenceMcKenna.Dennis,welcometotheshow.It'sanhonortohaveyouon.


4

Dennis: Thankyousomuchforhavingme.It'sapleasuretobehere.I'mgladwegotthosefactualissues

straightenedoutaheadoftheshow.

Dave: Whatyouguysdon'tknow,becausewetookitoutofthecoolfactoftheday,isthatwhenIwasfirstreadingthecoolfactoftheday,andIprepareaheadoftimewithnotes,andIworkwiththeBulletproofteamtomakesurethatI'vegotthenotesright.Inmyhead,foryears,I'vehadwhichoftheplantcompoundsaremixedinayahuasca.Ihaditbackwards.IwasundertheimpressionthattheDMTmoleculewasintheayahuascavineandtheMAOIswereintheshrub.Ihaditbackwards.I'mreadingthisgoing,"Wait,thisisbackwards.Ican'treadthis.Howembarrassing."ThenDennisstepsupandislike,"Uh,Dave,actuallythatwasright,andyou'rewrong."I'mlike,"Allright.I'vejustbeenschooledbyoneofthemostbad-asspsychopharmacologistshallucinogensexpertsoutthere."Icanlivewiththat.Thankyouforthecorrection,Dennis.

Dennis: You'rewelcome.Wecansortallthisoutaswegetintothis.Iimaginewewillwantto.

Dave: Wecan,indeed.I'mreallylookingforwardtothisinterview,becauseyouandIgotachancetotalkafewmonthsagoaboutibogaineresearch.Ibogaineisanotherhallucinogenthat'sreallyhadaprofoundeffectonaddiction,inparticular.WhenIrealizedfromthatconversation,like,"Wow,weshouldtalk.Lotsofpeoplewouldliketohearwhatwewouldchatabout,"sothisisourchancetodothat.Togetgoing,Iwanttoknowhowdidyougetintothisstuff?Wastheresomethingaboutyourchildhood?Whatmadeyouspendyourlifestudyingthesekindofbizarremedicinesthatmostpeopledon'tknowanythingabout?

Dennis: Ithinkmultiplefactors.I'dhavetocreditmybrotherorblamemybrother,dependingonhowyouwanttoseeit,becausehewas4yearsaheadofmeinage,andhewasalwaysintothecoolstuff.That'sjustanagewherethelittlebrotherwantswhateverbigbrother'sdoing.Hewantsin.Mybrotherwasreallyintoalwaysdoinginterestingthings.Hewasobviouslybrilliantanddriven.Ireallycredithim,andalsothezeitgeistoftheage,becausethiswasthe60s,andwewerechildrenofthe60's.MybrotherwaslivinginBerkeley.Inthelate60s,afterhegraduatedfromhighschool,hewenttoBerkeley.Hewantedtobeattheepicenterofwheretheactionwas,andsoIwasinfluencedbyallthat.LSDwaswhatwasthepsychedelicoftheday,ifyouwill.EveryonewastakingLSD.Itwasatimeofsocialfermentandturmoil.TheVietnamWarwasgoingon.Itwasaveryturbulenttime,andwewererightinthemiddleofit.

Wewerenerdy,Iguess.Wedidn'tevenhavethatwordatthattime,butTerryandI,TerenceandI,wereinterestedinoutrageousthings.Wewerebigsciencefictionfanatics.Wereadinesotericphilosophyandalchemy,allofthesethings.Whenpsychedelicscamealong,itwasrightupouralley.Wecouldnotnotgetinterestedinit.Wedid.Terenceagainleadingthewayintroducedmetosomeofthesepsychedelics.

Thefirsttimeheintroducedmetocannabisonesummer,whenhecamebackfromBerkeleyfullofalltheseradicalideas,withaveryprettygirlfriendandabagfullofcannabis,whichweprobablycouldn'tgiveawayintoday'smarket.Itdidthetrick.Wejustwentovertothepark,whichwasacrossfromourhouse,andsatdownandtopedup.Thatwasreallymyfirstencounterwithapsychedelic,psychoactivesubstancethatwasnotalcohol.Ihadmyfirst


5

seriousencounterwithalcohollessthanaweekpreviously.Didn'tlikethatatall,andwhenItookcannabis,Irealized,thisismydrug.ThisismuchmorecompatiblewithwhatIlike.

Iwascuriousaboutallthesethings,andhewas,andwewereincorrespondence.Bythistime,thesewereletters.Wedidn'thaveinternetinthosedays.Wewereincorrespondence.We'dgottenpastallofthesiblingrivalrythatbrotherssometimeshave.Wewerenowfriendsandcolleaguesandfellowexplorersofthefringes,Iguess,ofeverything,ofcultureandsoon.IwentouttoCaliforniain1967,thesummerof'67,whichwasthesummeroflove,supposedly.HewaslivinginBerkeley,sowehadaplacetogo.MyfriendandI,whymyfatherallowedthistohappen,Istillhavenoidea,becausehehadtoknowthatfromhisperspective,itprobablywasn'tgoingtogowell.Anyway,heletmegooutthere.

Inthatsummer,wediscovered,myfriendandI,thankstoTerence'sintercession,wediscoveredLSD.Itwasreallyourfirstpsychedelicexperience.Itwasn'ttoolongbeforewediscoveredDMT.TerencehadtoldmeaboutDMTwhenhe'dcomebackthatsummertoturnmeontocannabis,buthehadn'tbroughtany,andhejustdescribeditastheultimatemetaphysicalrealitypill.Ofcourse,it'snotapill,asweknow,becauseit'snotorallyactive.It'ssomethingthatwassmoked.Thesyntheticversionwassmoked.Anyway,minordetail.WhenTerencediscoveredDMTandsharedthatwithme,webothdecidedthatthatwasjustamazing,thatitwasnotjustthemostamazingdrugwe'dtaken,andourexperiencewasactuallyprettylimited.Itwasjustthemostamazingthingwe'deverencounteredinourlimiteduniverse.Wedecidedtothroweverythingelseawayandfocusonthat,becausewesaid,inourminds,thiswasthemostimportantdiscoverythatmanhadevermade.45yearson,Ireallyhaven'tchangedmymindmuchaboutthat.

Dave: DMTprobablywasn'tthatcommonbackin'67.Idon'tknow.Thiswas5yearsbeforeIwasborn.Wasthissomethingyoucouldget,ordidyouguyshavesomeuniversityhook-up?Yeah?

Dennis: Itwashardtoget.Terence,helivedinBerkeley,whichwaskindofthecenterofallthis.

Dave: Okay,epicenter.

Dennis: Heworkedthematrix.Hehadconnectionsandsoon.HewasabletocomeupwithDMT,withsyntheticDMT,whichwassomethingthatyousmokedinaglasspipelikecrack.

Dave: It'sstillhardtoget,right?

Dennis: It'sbecomingeasiertoget,largelybecauseTerence'stalksandsoonhavemadeitmorewell-known.It'seasiertogetnowthanitisthen.Whatyougotthenwasjustthishorriblesloppysynthesis.Yougotthisorange,smelly,amorphouspaste.

Dave: Yuck.

Dennis: Notgreatquality,butitdidthetrick.

Dave: Forpeoplelistening,DMTistheactiveingredientinayahuasca,andit'salsoknownasthespirit


6

molecule.Thereisawell-knownbookaboutuniversityresearchatUNMusingthis,wheretheyactuallyquantifyitandmeasuredtheexperiencesofpeople.Itappearstohavesomehealingeffects,youcouldputitthatway.ThestuffI'veseennowismorelikeawhitecrystallinesortofthing,anditalsocanbesnortedinsteadofjustsmoked.Iwouldencourageanyonelisteningwho'sneverdoneDMT,ifyouaregoingtochoosetodothis,don'tmessaround.Haveexperiencedpeoplewhoknowhowtotakecareandtowatchyouandtokeepyousafe,becausethisisnotsomethingthatIwouldtriflewith.Justtoputitthatway.It'sbigmedicine,youcouldsay.

Dennis: Yeah.Essentiallythesameconsiderationsapplytoanypsychedelic.

Dave: Yeah,that'sverytrue.

Dennis: EspeciallywithabigpsychedeliclikeDMTorLSDorevenmushrooms.Payattentiontosetandsetting.Assurethatyou'reinasafeplace.Assurethatmaybethere'ssomeonewithmoreexperiencetherewhocannotnecessarilyevenbeinthesameroom,butbeclose.Justcommonsensemeasuressothatyoucanfocusontheexperienceandnottheexternalworld.

Dave: Iwouldgoonestepfurtherandsayifyou'regoingtodoahallucinogenlikethis,setandsettingandintentionmatter.Havesomeonewho'satrainedshamanwhoreallyunderstandsthemoreemotional,spiritual,unseenworldwithyou,justbecauseitcan'thurt,anditprobablycoulddosomegood.

Dennis: Right.Itcan'thurt.InthecaseofDMT,Idon'tknowthatitmakesadifferenceinacertainwaybecauseit'ssoshort-acting.That'soneofthethingsaboutit,andthat'soneofthekeydifferencesbetweenDMTandayahuasca.WhenyoutakeDMTorally,theexperienceisstretchedoutoverseveralhours.WhenyousmokeDMT,20minutesfrombaselinetobaseline.It'sveryfastandit'sveryoverwhelmingwhenyoutakeitthatway,astonishing,I'dsay.Sometimesit'sdifficulttocomebackwithmuchotherthanasenseofastonishmentandlike,"Whatwasthat?"It'simpressive,butIthinkwhenDMTistakenorally,thatwouldbethewaymostpeopleinindigenouscultureswouldencounterit,it'sprettydifferent.Itdoesn'thavetheintensity,butithasmoredepth,Iwouldsay,andmorehealingeffectsthatway.

Dave: That'safairwaytodescribeit.TherearepeopleouttherewhowouldsaythatthewholeLSDandDMTandthewholepsychedelicculturewascreatedbygovernmentpeoplelookingtodestabilizesocietyandMKUltraandallthatsortofstuff,CIA.What'syourespeciallywiththatstuff?Isthereanythingtothat?There'sreamsofevidenceI'veseenfrompeoplelikethis.I'mnotsurethatitmatters,butyouwerethere.Werethereguysinblacksuitsandsunglasses?Whatwasthatlike?

Dennis: No.Ithinkthatthat'samisinformationthat'sbeendeliberatelypropagated.Iwouldhavetosay,iftheCIAdeliberatelyreleasedthesepsychedelicsintosocietytodestabilize,whatwouldbethepurposeofthat,todestabilizesociety?Insomesense,societywasalreadyinturmoilwhenthisstuffhappened.Thentheotheraspectisthatthesethingshavebeenusedindigenouslyforthousandsofyears.Theywereonlynewtousinthe60s,whenitbegantocometotheattentionofmassconsciousness,ormassmedia.Theseareallpartofthetraditionsthatarethousandsof


7

yearsold.Idon'tthinkthegovernmenthadanymoreideathananyoneelsewhatthesocialconsequencesofthesepsychedelicsescapingintotheculturewere.Therewasnoplot.Ithinktheywereassurprisedaseveryone.

Iamnotabelieverinconspiracytheoriesbyandlargebecausemyapproachtoitis,nobodyknowswhat'sgoingon.Theideawiththeconspiracytheoryissomebodyknowswhat'sgoingon.Actually,no.Nobodyhasaclue.

Dave: Ifindthatmostthingsthatarelabeledasconspiracytheoriesareemergentbehaviorsfrommany,manymicrodecisonsthataremade,sotheylookprettybad.Everynowandthen,therereallyarebadpeopledoingbadthings,but.

Dennis: Well,ofcourse.

Dave: Icantellyou,ifbadpeoplethoughttheyweregoingtogetanadvantagebyintroducinghallucinogensintosociety,Ithinktheirplan,Iwouldsayitprobablybackfired,buttherearepeople-

Dennis: Iwouldsayso.

Dave: -peoplewholistentoBulletproofRadioandfriendswhowouldrabidlydisagreewiththat,andI'mnotsayingthatIknow,butI'lltalkaboutmyexperiencesandincrediblehealingthatI'veseenmanypeopleexperienceusinghallucinogensinahealingsetting,notatDisneyland.Idon'tthinkthat'sparticularlyawiseuseofthesethings,andIdon'tthinkthey'reforkids,andthey'renotforparties.Theycertainlyhavesomepower.TellmeaboutwhathappenedwhenyouwentwithyourbrotherTerencetoLaChorrera.

Dennis: I'malwaysreluctanttodiscussthisonpodcastsbecauseit'sdifficulttoexplain.Even40yearslater,it'sdifficulttoexplain.That'sonereasonwhyIwrotethisbook.IfIcouldmentionit,Iwill.

Dave: Please,plugyourbook.Bulletprooflistenerslovetoread.

Dennis: It'scalled,"TheBrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss."Ievenhaveacopyhere.Idon'tknowifyoucanseeit.

Dave: Yeah,"BrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss."

Dennis: MylifewithTerenceMcKenna.Thatismymemoir,andthosepeoplewhoknowTerence'swritingwillrecognizethisasasequelto,insomeways,hisbookcalled"TrueHallucinations,"whichfocusesmuchmoreonouradventuresintheAmazonatLaChorrera.WhydidwegototheAmazonandtoLaChorrerain1971?ThisispartofthisstoryaboutDMT.Wedecidedthatseriously,thattherewasnothinggoingonsocietallyorintermsofourcareer,oranythingelsethatwasmoreimportantthanDMT.Wethoughtreallythismaybeisasignalfromanaliencivilization.Wedidn'tknow,butitwasrelatedtoourfrustration,insomeways,thattheDMTexperiencewassoshort.Weactuallyfoundout,weresearchedtheliterature.NobodyknewatthattimethatayahuascacontainedDMT.Ethnobotanywasstillbeingsortedout,butwe


8

discoveredareferencetoanotherpreparationusedbytheWitotoIndians,whichwerebasedinLaChorrera,SouthernColumbia,calledoo-koo-he.Theycalleditoo-koo-he,anditwasanorally-activepreparationmadefromthesapofthesetreesthatbelongtothegenusvirola,membersofthenutmegfamily.

OthertribesallthroughnorthernVenezuelaandColumbiamakesnuffsoutofrelatedtrees,sotheygetaroundthatMAOinhibitionthingbymakingitintoasnuff.Weknewallthat.Theethnobotanyhadbeenstudied,andthenthispapersurfacedaboutanoralpreparationinvolvingvirola.Wethought,"Aha.Maybethiswillbeanorally-activeform.Maybewecanspendmoretimeinthisdimension,inthisplace,andunderstandbetterwhatwasgoingon."Thatwasthequasi-scientificmotive,Iguessyoucouldsay,forustogodownthereinsearchofthisraredrugthatnowhitemanasfarasweknowhadevertaken.

WewenttoLaChorrera.Wewentwheretheactionwas.Whatactuallyhappened,andifyoureadTerence'sbookormybook,whenwegottoLaChorrera,andthat'sawholestoryinitselfhowwegotthere,whenwegottoLaChorrera,wehadmetaanthropologistonthewayinwhowasstudyingtheWitoto.Weknewhewasthere.Weexpectedtoencounterhim.We'dbeentoldinBogotathathewaswithhispeople.Wedidencounterhim.Hewasutterlyappalled,numberone,thatwe'dshowedup,andwewereeverybitascolorfulasanyofthetribes.Wewereawild-lookingbunch.WecouldhavesteppedrightoutofanystreetcornerandpaidashberriesWehadbeardsdowntohere.Wehadbells.Wehadbangles.Wewereacolorfultribeonourownright.

Weshowedup.Wetoldhimwhatwewereafter,andhe,again,wasappalled.Itwaslike,"Howdoyouevenknowaboutthis?You'renotsupposedtodiscussthis.Thisismadness.Youcan'tgointhereandaskforthisthing."Well,itturnsout,hewasalittleparanoid,eventually.Wesaid,"Okay,yeah,whatever,doc."ThenwewentontoLaChorrera,butwesaid,"Okay,we'llbecool."

WegottoLaChorrera,andwesaid,"Well,we'lljusthangoutuntilthemomentseemsappropriate,andwecanasksomebodyaboutoo-koo-he.Maybetheycanleadustoit."LaChorrerawasaplacethat,itwasamissionvillage.Forestaroundthevillagehadbeencleared,maybeacouplehundredacreshadbeenturnedintopasture.Therewerezebucattlethere,andthezebucattle,thepreferredsub-straitforpsilocybecubensis,whichisthepan-tropical,biggoldencappsilocybinmushroom,theywereliterallyeverywhereinthepasture.Weknewwhattheywere,becausewe'ddoneourhomework.Wehadverylittleexperiencewiththem,butweknewwhattheywere,andwethought,"Oh,great.Wecanhavefunwiththesewhilewe'rewaitingforoo-koo-he,therealmysterytoemerge."

Wesaid,"Well,great.Wehavelotsofcannabis.Wehavestrophariacubensis,"asitwascalledbackthen,"sowe'regood.Wecanjusthangoutandenjoytheseverynicenon-toxicpsychedelicsandseewhatemerge."Itquicklyemergedthatthemushrooms,notoo-koo-he,whenweeventuallyfoundtheoo-koo-he,itwasdisappointing.Itwasn'treallythatspectacular.Westartedeatingmushroomsonaverycasualbasisandnotreallypayingattention,andoften,becausewedidn'thaveallthatmuchtoeat.Thefoodwebroughtwasinadequate,andyoucanmakequiteanicebowlofsouporanomelettewithpsilocybinmushrooms.


9

Dave: GoodGod.

Dennis: Wewereconsumingthemkindofprettymuchallthetime.Itquicklygotprettyweird.Itstarted

suggesting,itstimulatedconversationforsureamongus.Itstartedpresentingalltheseideasthatwerewhatmybrotherwouldliketocall"funnyideas,"veryunconventionalideasaboutthingsyoucoulddotoessentiallyoperateonyourselftodoapsycho-surgeryonyourDNA.Wedidthosethingsandwedidwhatthemushroomtoldustodo,anditwasverymuchlikebeinginstructedbysomeintelligententity.Inourreferenceframeatthattime,weprettymuchassumedthatitwaseitherthemushroomorsomethingbeingchanneledthroughthemushroomthatwastellingustodothisbiophysicalexperimentthatwassupposedtotransformourDNAinaveryspecialway.

I'mnotgoingtogoanyfurtherinto,excepttosaythat,weconceivedanexperiment,andweperformedtheexperiment.Whatwepredictedcouldhappencouldnotpossiblyhappenbecauseitviolatedthelawsofphysicsandeveryotherlawofdecencyandwhatever.Couldnothappen,butwehadsortoftalkedourselvesintoa,Iguess,acognitivecornerwheresomethinghadtohappenwhenwedidthisexperiment.Whathappenedwasthatwebothhadasimultaneousalteredstateepisodethatlastedacoupleofweeks,andthepredictionsoftheexperimentdidn'tcometrue,butitwaslikesomethinghadtogive.Whatgavewasourgrasponreality,mineinparticular.Ifullyrecovered,Ihope,andasfarasIknow,andsothatwastheexperiment.

Idon'twanttogointodetailbecausewedon'thaveenoughtime.

Dave: Sure.

Dennis: Iwantyoutoreadmybook.It'sallunpackedthereinquiteabitofdetail.It'sveryhardtoexplain.

Dave: Justbasedonthat,alotofpeoplelisteningtoBulletproofRadiotodaywillwanttopickupyourbook,"TheBrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss,"andreadwhatisoneofthestoriesaboutverypioneeringworkinpsychedelics,andveryfascinating,justfromahistoricalperspective,nottomentionifyou'reinterestedinpursuingthiskindofmedicine.Ithinkit'sworthunderstandingwhereitcamefrom,andatleastwhereitcamefromintheWest.

Dennis: Yeah.IthinkoneofthetakehomelessonsfromouradventurethereandtheexperimentatLaChorrerawaswereallywereclueless.Wethoughtweknew,muchless.It'salmostanexampleofhownottoapproachthesethings.Wewerelucky.Welearnedalot.Iwouldnotsuggestthatanyoneelsetakethatapproach.Studyup.Knowwhatyou'redoingbeforeyougetintothis.Wedidn't,butwelearnedquickly.

Dave: Someonehastostepoffthecliffsometimes.

Dennis: Exactly.


10

Dave: Iunderstandandrespectthat.Youmentionedacoupletimes,themushroomsortheplantscanbechannelingsomekindofintelligenceormessagesfromaliens.40yearslater,what'syourverdict?

Dennis: IwishIknew.Istillhavenotfiguredthatout,becauseitcertainlyseemsoftenwithmushrooms,withayahuasca,withtheseotherprofoundpsychedelics,itoftenseemsthatyou'reintouchwithanintelligencethatisnotyou.Maybeit'sapartofyouthatispresentingasnotyou.Thatwouldbethereductionistperspective.Maybeitactuallyisadifferentintelligence.It'seithertheplantorsomethingthatspeaksthroughtheplant,andIdon'tthinkwecandecide.Idon'tthinkevenneurosciencecandecide.Thisisadifficultquestion,anditgoestosomeofthemostfundamentalissuesaboutwhatisthenatureofreality,andwhatisthenatureofourperceptionofreality?Isthebrainsomethingthattakesinformationin?Isitthedetector,orageneratorofconsciousness,thebrain?

Ithinkit'spartlyboth,butIthinkthatthebraintakesinformationinfromtheenvironment,combinesitwithassociatedprocesses,andessentiallygeneratesahallucinationthatwecallreality.That'sthehallucinationthatwelivein.It'spartly,atleast,synthesizedbyourneuralmachinery.That'swhatthebraindoes.It'sarealitygenerator.Itgeneratesamodelofrealitythatwecaninhabit,anditmakesmoresensethanrealityitself,whichphysicstellsusdoesn'tlookanythinglikewhatwethinkofasreality.It'smostlyemptyspaceandenergyfieldsandallthisstuff.

Thebrainisanorganthatenablesustoconstructamodelofreality,whichisanotherwayofsaying,ahallucinationoradreamoramovie.Itwritesthemovie.Wearetheproducers,directors,andstarsofourownmovie,asiseveryone.Idon'tthinkwecanreallyanswerthatquestion.WhatIwouldsayisifthisinformationiscomingfromsomethingoutside,anotherdimensionorwhatever,thatprettymuchthrowsintoquestioneverythingwethinkweunderstandaboutthewaytheworldis,andwe'vegotalotofexplainingtodo.Wehavetoexaminesomefundamentalassumptionsabouthowtheworldis.ThisisaproblemforweWesternerswhoaresteepedinscience,tendtoandclimbtowardreductionism.Ofcourse,indigenouspeopleare,it'slike,"Well,whatdidyouthinkitwas?"They'rejustkindofmatter-of-factaboutit.Yeah.Thisisit.That'swhatweexperience.

Dave: Ifyoucould,whatStanGrofdid,andforlisteners,StanGrofwrotebooksabouttheholotropicuniverse,andhetreated10,000patientswithLSDasalicensedpsychiatric,andhadprofoundhealingeffects.HeusesatypeofbreathingthatmakesyouhallucinatewhenLSDwasmadeillegal.I'veactuallydonehisbreathingexerciseswithhimpersonallywhenhewasinhislate80's,andwhathemappedoutwasprofound.There'speople,whenyoulookatthestatistics,whenlotsofpeopledohallucinogens,orgointoalteredstates,evenwithoutanysortofchemicalassistance,theygenerallyseethesamekindsofthings.I'velookedintotheworkofothergroupslikeInternationalAssociationofConsciousnessoutofBrazil.Thesepeoplearetheremappingthingsoutthewayscientistsdo,andsaying,"Well,ifyoutakeastatisticof50,000peoplewhowentonajourney,whetherornotitwasameditation-drivenorachemical-driven,"they'refindingthesamethingsandthey'reseeingthesamethings,andthey'redrawingpicturesofthesethingsanddescribingtheminintricatedetail.That'sfamiliartootherpeoplewhohavebeenthere.


11

Idon'tknow.Thatlooksveryscientifictome,andI'mahugefanofmeasurementandofusing

sciencetolookatthequestionofconsciousnessinsteadoftolookawayfromitandtoexplainitaway,whichhasbeentheparadigm.Yourexperimentinthejunglebackthenandalotofyourworkandyourbrother'sworkovertimehasthenextgenerationofscientistsjustopenlydoingwhathappenedinthe1700s.

Dennis: Whatwasprohibitedbackintheday.Nowit'salmostlegitimate.

Dave: Almost.

Dennis: It'sgettingthere.YouandIareonthesamepagethatway.Iamnotanti-scientific,right?Ithinkmeasurementandscientificverification,scienceisapowerfultool.Onethingthatpsychedelicswillputfrontandcenterishowlimitedscienceisintermsofitsmethodologyandintermsofwhatthereistoknowversusthelittletinysliceofrealitythatsciencecansay,"Well,we'vegotitfiguredouthere."No.Scienceonlyhasatinypartofrealityfiguredout.Eventhatissubjecttoquestion,becauseit'salwayssubjecttoquestion.Ifscienceisdoneproperly,you'realwaystryingtoinvalidateyourmodels,tryingtofindoutwhatwillinvalidatemytheoryormyunderstanding,orhowcanIreviseittobebetter,tobetteraccountforthedata?Scienceisgood,butit'slimited,andespeciallywhenitcomestothesetypesofinnerexperiences.

TerencewasmuchmoredismissiveofsciencethanIam.Hispositionwas,sciencewillneverreallyfigurethisout,sowhatgoodisit?Mypositionis,okay,let'snotbetoohasty.Itmightfigureitout,oritmightfigureoutsomepartofit.There'salottoknow,andwehavetobecognizantofthelimits.Ithinkforme,thetakehomelessonoftenfrompsychedelicsisjustareminderofhowlimitedourknowledgesphereis.Nomatterhowitgrows,there'salwaysmoretobeknownthanweactuallyknoworhaveconsensuson.Thatdoesn'tmeanweshouldn'ttrytounderstandit.Sciencecancarryusacertaindistanceinthatdirection.

Dave: Whendidyourealizethatyoucouldusepsychedelicstherapeuticallyandnotjustrecreationally?Atsomepoint,youmusthavecometothatconclusion,thatpeoplewerehealingorchangingfromthese.

Dennis: Yeah.Ihaveseenit,again,frommyownexperience.EventhoughwhenwewenttoLaChorreraandwehadtheseincredibleexperiencesthatwereprobablyverydangerous.Insomeways,we'reprobablyluckythatwecameoutbothaliveandstillrelativelysane.Thatsaid,lookingbackonitfromtheperspectiveof45yearsorwhatever,Idon'tregretitforaminute.Ifeelthatitwasaveryhealingexperienceforme.Youcanapplyacoupleofmodelstoit,ifyouwant.Itwasaprolongedpsychosis.Okay,itwasaprolongedpsychosis.Iprefertothinkofitasashamanicinitiation,althoughI'mnotashaman.I'mthelastpersontosayI'mashaman,butithadallthestagesofshamanicinitiation,andtheultimatethingbeingthatafterIreintegrated,Iwasastronger,better,wiser,andcertainlymorehumblepersonthanIwaswhenIwentintoit.

Idon'trecommendthatpeopleshouldgooutandtakeoverdosesofmushroomsandhaveprolongedpsychoses,butIguessformepersonally,Irealize,thiswasactuallyabeneficialthingthathappenedtome.Ifithadbeeninterrupted,andtherewerepeopleinourpartywhowere


12

appalledatwhatwasgoingonandthoughtweshouldgettothenearestmentalinstitutionasquicklyaspossible,beingintheAmazon,thatwasn'tpossible.Wewerelucky.TerenceandI,weknewwhatwasgoingon.Wethoughtwedid,andtheprocesswasabletounfoldinitsowntimeandeventuallyresolve.Ithinkthatwasultimatelyhealing.

Asfarasingeneral,thetherapeuticpotentialofpsychedelics,itwasprettythoroughlyexploredinthe60s,usingprimarilyLSD,beforeallthatresearchwasshutdown.Foralcoholismanddepressionandanumberofdifferentthings,andit'staken40yearsorsotocomebacktothatbecausetheresearchwaspromising.Theresearchprotocolsweremaybenotasrigorousastheyarenow,buttheresultswereclear.Theywereunambiguous.Here'sthesubstancethatcouldpotentiallyhelpmanypeoplewithvarious,awholespectrumofpsychologicalproblems.

Thentheresearchwasshutdown.Itwaslikeaspasmofhysteriathatsortofsweptthroughsociety.Decisionsmadebypoliticiansregardingscientificandmedicalissues,inmyopinion,that'salwaysdangerousbecausethey'reusuallywillfullyignorantaboutallthosetopics.Theyshouldhavegoodadvice,andtheydidn't.Thedecisionswerenotmadeforsoundreasons.Itwasareactiontosocietalhysteria.Theresearchwhichwaspromisingwasshutdown,andittookalongtimetoreopenitandtakeamoresoberlookatit,andreallythatstartedintheearly'90swithRickStrassman'spioneeringworkonDMT.Thenthatkindofopenedthedooracrack,andthenmorerecentresearch,good,rigorousprotocols,gooddata,Iwouldn'tsayit'safloodgate,butthere'salotmoreworkgoingonnow,andactuallypsychedelicsareemergingassomethingthatisverypromisingfortreatmentofPTSDandaddictionandintractabledepression,OCD,evenpossiblymigraineheadache.That'sprettyclear.

Thetherapeuticpotentialisclear.Thechallengeis,howtotakethesesubstanceswhichhavelongbeenreviledandprohibited.Howdoyoureintegratethemintomedicine?Iftheyhavebetterproperties,andfrankly,mentalhealthcare,psychiatry,inbio-medicine,thewayit'spracticedtoday,iskindofajoke,inmyopinion,inthatitheavilyreliesonpsychopharmaceuticals.It'sentirelydrug-based.Thepsychopharmaceuticalsjustdon'tworkverywell.Psychedelicsworkmuchbetterformanyofthesethings,butthereisnorevenuemodel.Whatpharmaceuticalcompanyisgoingtodevelopadruglikepsilocybinwhichmaybeyoutake3or4timesinyourlife,versusanotherdrugthatyoutake4timesadayfortherestofyourlife?That'stheirrevenuemodel.

Theyhavenointerestindevelopingpsychedelicsastherapeuticmedicines.It'sgottohappenthroughsomeotherway,andtherehastobearegulatoryresponse,somechangeintheregulatoryframework,becausethesepsychedelicsareclassifiedasSchedule1controlledsubstances,rightuptherewithheroinandallthemostdangerousdrugs.They'reclassifiedasnomedicalvalue.That'snumber1,inherentlydangerous,can'tbeusedsafely,allthatstuff,noneofwhichisactuallytrue.

Dave: It'sprobablynotgoingtohappeninabigwayintheUSbecausetheregulatorybodiesareveryheavilyinfluencedbythepharmaceuticalcompanies,butifyouwereinanemergingeconomycountry,ifyouwereCubaormaybeyou'rerunningChinaandyouwanttogetanunfairadvantage,there'sdefinitely,we'llcallit'medicaltourism'forthesethingsthat'shappening,andIwouldbesurprisedifsomecountriesdidn'tbenefitunfairlybyopeninguptheirlaws.Isay


13

unfairly.It'sperfectlyfair.Theyhavemoreflexiblelegalsystemsthatletpeoplecontroltheirbiologythewaytheywant,cool.Peoplegothereandspendmoney,andthentheirownpopulationsbenefit,andtheycuttheirhealthcarecostsandthingslikethat.

Dennis: Right.

Dave: Ormaybetheyhavecivilwarandrebellion.Ijustdon'tthinkso.Thatdoesn'tappeartobewhathappenswhenpeoplestarthealingtheirtraumasusinghallucinogenicplantmedicinesthathavebeenaroundforthousandsofyears.

Dennis: Itistruethatpsychedelicsarenotonlytherapeuticforindividuals,butusedintherightcontext,they'retherapeuticforsocieties,andultimatelyforthewholeplanet,becausetheydotendtomakeusmorecompassionate.Theytendtomakeusbetterhumanbeings,andabletokindofstepoutsideourownpersonalboxandappreciatehowitisforotherpeople.ThiswasoneofthereasonstheywantedtosuppressLSDinthe'60s,becausepeopleweretakingLSDandsaying,"YouwantmetogotoVietnamandkillthesepeople?WhywouldIwanttodothat?"Theycan'thaveadrugthatputsthesekindsofprohibitedthoughtsintopeople'sheads.

Iwouldsayacoupleofthingsinresponsetowhatyousaid.Iwouldn'tbetoosure.Thereareeffortsunderwaynowtolegalizeorchangetheschedulestatusofacoupleofthesethings,MDMAandpsilocybin.

Dave: WithMAPS?

Dennis: AndHeffteraswell.We'refocusedalotonpsilocybin,andsowe'requietlyworking,muchmorequietlythanMAPS,becausewetendtobethequietone.Wearealsoworkingtoeffectaschedulechangeforpsilocybin.Ithinkwithinoptimistically10yearsor5years-

Dave: Wow.

Dennis: These2,atleast,aregoingtobeavailabletotherapistsforuseinvariousprotocols.That'sgoingtohaveahugeimpactonpsychiatry.Infact,it'sgoingtooverturnthecurrentpsychiatricparadigm.

Dave: Thatispowerful,powerfulwork,andIsupportyourmissionthere.Ifyoucanpullthatoffin5or10years,thatistrulyremarkable.We'reseeingthepublicopinionshiftandthathastoprecedearegulatorychange.

Dennis: Right.

Dave: IdohavemyconcernsaboutthelevelofcollusionbetweenBigPharmaandtheseregulationsandtheselaws.

Dennis: That'strue-

Dave: We'llsee.


14

Dennis: -butanimportantaspectofthisisthatmanyofthesethingscomefromplants,ormushrooms.

Theycomefromthingsthatgrowinthejungle.Youcan'trestrictaccesstothesethings.Youcangrowthem,andinfact,that'sarevolutionaryacttogrowtheseplantsandfigureouthowtousethemandsharethatknowledgeandtheplantswithotherpeople.That'skindofawaytopushbackagainstBigPharma.

Dave: Ohyeah.

Dennis: ThentheotherthingistheworkthattheHeffterisdoing,andMAPSisdoing.Ourapproachhasbeen,"Well,ifyoudogoodscience,thatcan'tbeignored,andthey'llhavetoacknowledgethat."Ifwedogoodscience,andthere'ssoliddatathattheyhavetherapeuticeffects,theywillmoreorlessbeforcedtoapproveitforthosetypesofuses.Theymaynotfundit,butthey'llhavetoapproveit,andthatwillmakeahugedifference.

Dave: Itsurehastakenalongtimeforthattoworkonevensimplethingslikenutritionandtheketosisdiet.AbookwaspublishedtheyearIwasbornonketosisthattalksaboutthebenefits,and43,Iwasobesehalfmylifebecausethatwasneveracceptedbythepowersthatbe.That'sfinallyturning,butitseemstobelikea40or50-yearcycle,maybewiththeinternetit'sonlya5or10yearcyclebecausewhenpeopletalkaboutitenough,justbecausethey'relisteningtopodcasts,heavenforbid,thattheymayjuststandupandsay,"I'mnotwillingtowait.Idon'twanttobeoldwhenI'mallowedtodothisthingthatIthinkmighthelpmewithmytrauma,"orwhateverelse.I'mhopefulfromthatfrontandwaryofthelevelofregulationsthatareinplaceforeconomicreasons,notformyownreasons.

Dennis: Right.Asyoupointedout,thereiskindofaburgeoningmedicaltourismindustryorphenomenonforpsychedelics,especiallyforayahuasca.ManypeoplearegoingtoPeruorothercountriestoexperienceit.Thatisatwo-edgedsword,becausealotoftheseplacesarenotwell-runandthey'renotgenuinetraditionsbecauseit'shadthiseconomicimpactonthesesocieties,andpeopleseethat,"Well,Icanhangmyshingleoutandcallmyselfanayahuascaroandgringoswillcomedownandpaymelotsofmoney."Therearegoodones.Therearetraditionally,well-trainedones,andmany,manywhoarebasicallycharlatans.There'snomechanismtosortoutwhichiswhich.Youhavetoknowtheterritory.

Dave: It'sgottentothepointthatTheOnionjustrecentlyranaspoofaboutthis.I'mguessingyouwouldhaveseenit.

Dennis: Yes,Idid.Veryfunny,andsadly,veryappropriate.

Dave: Forourlisteners,it'sasatirenewspaper,andyouprobablyknowTheOnionbecausethey'refamous,buttheyrananarticleabouthowtheyinterviewedashamanwhowasjustsickandtiredofallthetechCEOscomingdowntotakeayahuascaintheirhoodiesandBirkenstocksandgenerallyjustcompletelyskeweringthewholemedicaltourismforayahuascamovement.I'mkindofaproponentofthat.IwentdowntoPeruandIthinkitwas'99or'97,somewhereinthelate90's,whenIdidit,andIstillhavesomepicturesofit,soIcouldprobablydateitfromthen.IwentdownthereandIdidn'tknowIwasgoingtodoayahuasca,butI'dreadaboutit.Iwas


15

reallyinterestedandIjustmadeafewdiscreetinquiriesandtherewasn'tacharlatanindustrybackthenbecausenoonewantedit.

Dennis: Right.

Dave: EventuallyIfoundtheguyandheshowedupandhadtheblackjaguarobsidianthingandwasareal,legitimatejungleshaman.Ihadareallyinterestingandamazingexperiencewithit,butIthinkifIwentdowntherenow,itwouldbeaverydifferentexperience,andI'velearnedthatyoushouldbereallycautiousaboutwhoyoudothesethingswithbecauseyourdefensesaredown.You'rebasicallyprogrammablewhenyoutakethesethings.

Dennis: Yes,that'strue.Youhavetobecarefulnow.Thereisnooverarchingregulatorybody,andthere'sreasonfortherenottobe,andthere'salsoarationalargumentthatthereshouldbesomelevelofregulation,butrightnow,you'rekindofonyourown.IfyougotosomeplacelikeIquitos,whichistheepicenterofthisphenomenoninPeru,you'llbeasked2or3timesbeforeyougettoyourhotel.Pickedupattheairport,thetaxidriverwillsay,"Doyouwanttogotoanayahuascaceremony,"andifyousay"Yes,"you'llbetakensomewhere.There'llbesomebody,maybethebrother-in-lawofthetaxi.There'snowaytoknow.

Dave: Holycrap.Ihadnoidea.

Dennis: Yeah.

Dave: Ihadtogotothehotelandtheguyhadtosendsomeoneouttothejungle.Itwasalotofdoing,andthey'relike,"Whydoesthisguywanttodothat?"

Dennis: It'scompletelyoutofcontrol,inmyopinion.It'saninterestingphenomenon,Dave.Ihavemixedfeelingsaboutit.

Dave: Icansee.

Dennis: Ilookatthispartlyasanevolutionarybiologist.Ithinkwhatwe'reseeinghereissymbiosisandco-evolutionwithateacherplant.Theindigenouspeopleregardayahuascaasaplantteacher,astheydomanyofthesepsychedelics.Co-evolutionisnoteasy.We'reatsortofthisroughspot,butit'slikeayahuascahasleftthejungleandit'sgoneontotheglobalstageandIthinkofitasakindofambassadorforGaia,fortheGaianmind,andit'stryingtogetitsmessageout.It'sgettingalittlebithystericalbecausewe'renotlistening.Theproblematicmonkeysarenotlistening,andthemessageis,we'rewreckingtheplace.Somanypeoplecomebackwiththissortofrenewedorrediscoveredperspectiveonourrelationshipwithnature,andhowwe'relosingthat.Wehavetochangeourattitudebeforewecanbegintotakestepstoavertallthechallengeswefaceontheenvironmentallevel.

Dave: IwoulddearlylovetosprayayahuascaonMonsanto'sheadquarters,ifsprayedayahuascaworked.

Dennis: Itwillwork,butthereareotherapproachestothis.


16

Dave: Iknow,butifitdid.

Dennis: Right.

Dave: Wearedestroyingthesoil,andIactuallybelievethatthereisanearthintelligence.

Dennis: Ido,too.

Dave: Youlookatwhatrootsdo,youlookatwhatfungusdoesinthesoil,andthesoilisaliving

organism.Itjustis.

Dennis: Right.ThewholeGaiahypothesis,whichbasicallycamefromJamesLovelock,originallyformulatedit,itwasdismissedwhenitcameout.Now,itturnsout,actually,it'snot“Woo-Woo”stuff.It'sprettysolidscience.

Dave: There'sevenabigmagneticfieldaroundtheplanetthatchanges,justliketheonearoundourheads,andit'sactuallykindofscarywhenyoulookatit.Wow,we'rereallyjackingthisthingupandwehavenoideahowitworks.

Dennis: That'strue.

Dave: Ifyoudecidetobreaksomething,andyouknowhowitworks,that'sonething,becauseyoucanprobablyfixitorchangeit.

Dennis: Right.

Dave: There'sacouplelevelsofknowledgethatwejusthaven'tquitefiguredoutnow,evenaboutwhat'sgoingoninourgutbacteria,intheinnerworkingsofourcellularbiology.

Dennis: Exactly.

Dave: It'salot,andfunny.Peopleused,IbelieveitwasLSD,tounderstandDNAinourcellularbiology.We'vebeenusingplantmedicinestogetknowledge.SteveJobs,Apple,alotoftheseinterestingthingscomeaboutbecausewe'reusingthesethingsas,callthemsmartdrugsorwhateverelse,butthey'rechangingourconsciousnessandmakingusmoreawareofwhat'saroundus,andwhenyoupayattention,thereisaplanetanditdoeshavesomeconsciousness.It'sjustnotlikeours,atleast,notourperception.

Dennis: It'snotlikeours.They'recatalysts.Theyletyousteptemporarilyoutofyourreferenceframe,andexaminephenomenonandmaybeyourself,ifyou'reinthetherapeuticcontext,butjustexaminephenomenoninanovelway.That'swhyKaryMullisandJamesCrickandSteveJobsandallthesepeoplehadthesewonderfulcreativeideasbecausetheywerecognitivecatalystsinacertainway.There'snothingdelusionalaboutit.Theirinsightswerevalid.Theyhadthemonthedrug,butthentheycouldgobackandsay,"Well,yeah,thisactuallyholdsup."Ithinkthatthatisoneoftheapplicationsofpsychedelics.Notstrictlytherapeutic.Theygiveusadifferent


17

waytoviewtheworld,andunderstandphenomena,soyoucouldalmostthinkofthemasthey'relikeascientificinstrument,inacertainway.

Dave: Whatdoyouthinkaboutmicro-dosing?There'sahugethingout.I'vetalkedaboutitprettyopenly.There'sahugethinghappeninginSiliconValleynow,asanextensionofsmartdrugs,wherepeoplearemicro-dosingeithermushroomsorLSDatverylowdoses,everysingledayorevery3rdday,forasubstantialperiodoftime,likeamonthatatime.What'syourtakeonthat?

Dennis: Ihaveanumberofdifferentperspectivesonit.IhavetosayIhavenotmicro-dosed,soIdon'treallyhavethebenefitofexperience.Sometimes,ontheonehand,Ithink,well,micro-dosingisfine,butarethesepeoplewhoareafraidtogothefullMonty?You'vegottolearnthingsfromamicro-dose.Imaginehowmuchmoreyoumightlearnifyouactuallytookafulldoseinapropersetandsetting.That'sonething.

TheotherthingIwonderaboutsometimesis,thepsychedelicsproducetoleranceveryreadily,sothat'soneofthethingstheydorapidly,producetolerance.Ifyoutakeamicro-doseeveryday,bythe4thday,it'snotgoingtohavemuchofaneffect,atleastintermsofwhatweunderstandfromwhatweknowaboutthepharmacologyofthesethings.Ultimately,myotherpositionis,well,ifpeoplewanttomicro-dose,theyfeelabenefitfromit,letthemdoit.Whynot?

Igenerallythinkthatpeople'srelationshiptothesesubstancesshouldbeasunregulatedaspossible.Education,notprohibitionistheanswer.Peopleshoulddowhattheydobasedoninformeddecisions,basically.

Dave: Myperspectivethereisreallystraightforward.It'smybiology,andI'lldowithitwhatIwant.AnyonewhothinkstheyhavearighttotellmewhatI'mallowedtodowithmybody,isbasicallydeclaringwaronme,andtheycandie.

Dennis: Itotallyagree.

Dave: Andcomeback.Wecandoadanceorwhatever,butdon'tmesswiththesecells.They'remine.

Dennis: Exactly,exactly.IfIcould,maybeit'scomeuponyourshowalready,butanotherorganizationIlovetoputapluginforiserowid.org,ifyouknowthat.

Dave: Oh,yeah,greatsite.Okay.

Dennis: Yeah.

Dave: E-R-O-W-I-D.

Dennis: E-R-O-W-I-D.Yeah.Bestonlineresourceonpsychoactivedrugsofallkinds.Wonderfulpeople,EarthandFire,Erowidaregreat,andifyou'regoingtomesswiththesedrugs,bookmarkthatoneandgocheckitoutbeforeyoutakeanythingnew.Solidinformation.


18

Dave: There'sacrazysegmentofsocietywhowouldbelike,"Oh,ItookmyRobitussincoughmedicineandIdistilleditandIpouredbutaneinit,andIextractedtheDMandIinjecteditwithatuningfork,"andyou'relike,"Okay,guys,chill.Thatisnotnecessaryforyoutoexploreyourconsciousness,andit'snotsafe."IloveitthatErowidiswillingtowriteitdown,letpeopletalkaboutit,andjusthaveadialog.Butdon'tgonuts.There'splentyofverypotentpowerfulthingsyoucandowithouthairsprayinit.

Dennis: Yeah,exactly.Mypositionis,well,stickwiththeplants.Youknowwhatyou'regetting,andthey'recomingoutofalongtraditionofuse.Yeah,ofcourse,youcanworkwithsyntheticsandLSDisasemi-syntheticcompound,butbyandlarge,thiswholedesignerdrugarea,EarthandFiregaveawonderfultalkonthiswholedesignerdrugphenomenonataconferenceIwasatrecently.It'simpossibletoknowwhatyou'regetting.Ifyouhaveaplant,youprobablyknowwhatyou'regetting,especiallyifyougrewityourself.

Dave: Ifyougrewityourself,buteventhen,there'sdifferentstrains.Differentstrainsofpotcandoradicallydifferentthings.Thenyougetstorageandprocessing.Yougetmoldypot.Youknowitdoesn'tdothesamethingasgoodpot.Itsmellsbad.There'svariantsthere,andoneofthethingsistocultivateawareness."Okay,thatdidn'tworkverywell,eventhoughIthoughtitwasgoingto.I'mnotgoingtodothatagain."

Dennis: Right.

Dave: Tocirclebackonthemicro-dosingthing,afriendmicro-dosedLSDeverydayfor30days.TheexperiencethatIheardaboutwassimilartooneoftheracetams,buttherewasnotatolerancethathappenedatallatverylowdoses,like5%ofanormal,fulltab.

Dennis: That'spossible.

Dave: Itwasprettyinteresting,anddefinitelyincreasingcreativityandespeciallyaroundwords.Theywereabletoassociatewords,findwordsbetter.Itwasprettydarneasy.Yougoalittlebitheavy,andyou'refeelingalittlemoreopenthanyoureallyshouldbe,andyou'reprobablynotasfunnyasyouthinkyouare.

Dennis: Right.

Dave: Kindofperspective.

Dennis: Areyoureadyforthatboardmeetingin5minutes?Yeah.Iknow.It'sproblematic.

Dave: Thatmayormaynothavehappenedonstageatsomepointwiththisfriendofmine.Thatsortofthingisarisk,butIdobelieveifyou'reworkinginacognitiveprofession,wherecreativityandassociationandmakingnewthingsispartofwhatyoudo,there'sprobablyagreatargumentasacognitiveenhancingstrategyentirelydifferentfromhealingtrauma,fromhallucinogenthings.It'sjustnotwell-exploredatall,andI'dliketoseethatexploredmore.

Dennis: Ithinkitisbeingexplored.Itdefinitelyisbeingexploredunofficially.Likeyousay,manypeople


19

atSiliconValleyaredoingthis.Eventuallythereprobablywillbeaclinicalstudy.Theremayalreadybeclinicalstudiestokindofputsomedatabehindthisandsay,"Isthisarealeffect?Doesitimprovecognitivefunction?"Imightmentionjustinconnectionwiththis,whenwedidthisbio-medicalstudyofayahuascabackinthe'90swiththeUDV,oneofthechurchesdownthere,inBrazil,weadministeredabattery,anumberofdifferentpsychologicaltestsandcomparedthosetocontrols.Amongthethingswemeasuredwereverbalandcognitiveability,recall,memoryfunctionsandallthat.ThemembersoftheUDVwerebetterthancontrols.

Dave: Wow.

Dennis: Theywerestatisticallybetter.Notgreatly,notahugeeffect,butenoughtoshowstatistically.Thequestionweweretryingtoanswerwasnot,"Aretheybetter?"Whatwewerewonderingis,"Aretheyworse?Aretheyimpairedbytheirlifelonguseofayahuasca?"Noindicationatallthattheywereimpaired,eithermentallyorphysically.Theyareremarkablepeople.Someofthepeopleinourcohort,inourstudycohort,havebeentakingayahuascaevery2weeksfor40years,andinexcellentmentalandphysicalhealth.Iactuallythinkithasalotofphysicalaswellaspsychologicalbenefits.

Dave: Itseemsto.Iknowaleaderinthepersonaldevelopmentfieldwhohasdone70journeys.Prettydarnsubstantialnumberofjourneysgiventhatyouthrewupforeachofthem.That'sanon-trivialcommitment,right?

Dennis: Right.

Dave: Hedoesitbecauseitworks.

Dennis: That'showIfeel,too.I'velearnedsomuchfromthismedicine.Ithinkthattheindigenouspeoplehaveitright.Theseareteachers.Youlearnfromthem.Theyhaveatremendousamountofwisdom.Theydon'ttalktoyoulikeyouandIaretalking,butthereisatransferofinformation,andthere'salearningprocessthatgoeson.Whoknows?

Dave: Tosaythattakesacertainamountofcourage,becausethereareagroupofpeoplewhowillreflexivelysay,"That'scrazytalk."Here'sthedeal.Idon'tcareifsomeonethinksit'scrazytalk.Ifitaddedvaluetoyou,andyouthinkitmadeyouabetterperson,orimprovedthequalityofyourlifeoryourthinkingorsomethingelse,good.Itdoesn'tmatterifpeoplethinkit'scrazytalk.

Dennis: Generally,thepeoplethatsaythat,they'llreflexivelysaythat.Theyobviouslyhaven'thadtheexperience.

Dave: Yeah.

Dennis: That'salsooneofthegreatthingsaboutpsychedelicsthatIoftentalkabout.Youdon'thavetohavefaith.Youdon'thavetohaveanybelief.Youhavetohavecourage.That'sallyouneedisthecouragetodrinkthecuporsmokethepipeorwhatever.Havetheexperienceandmakeofitwhatyouwill.Don'tbelieveTerenceMcKennaorDennisMcKennaorAndyWileoranyofthesepeople.Godgaveyouananalyticalbrain.Youcanfigurethisstuffoutforyourself,butyoumust


20

havetheexperience,andifyouwanttomakeapronouncementaboutitbeforeyou'vehadtheexperience,I'msorry,whyshouldIlistentoyou?You'renotqualifiedtocomment.That'smyposition.

Dave: Verywellsaid.Thetruescientistisprobablygoingtoexperimentalittlebitandseewhatitdoes,giventhattheharmappearstobeprettydarnlow.

Dennis: Prettydarnlow.

Dave: Well,Dennis,it'sbeenanamazingpleasuretohaveyouonBulletproofRadio.There'saquestionI'dliketoaskyouthatI'veaskedalloftheguestsonthisshow.

Dennis: Okay.

Dave: Ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowandsaid,"Look,basedoneverythingyou'veseenandexperiencedanddoneinyourlife,Iwantyouradvice.IwanttobebetterateverysinglethingIdo.Iwanttokickmoreassatlife.WhatarethethreemostimportantthingsIneedtoknow?"Whatwouldyousay?

Dennis: Togetmoreoutoflife?

Dave: Justtobebetterateverything.

Dennis: Firstofall,neverforgethowlittleyouknow.Ithinkwetouchedonthisbefore,whichIdon'tthinkofasadepressingthing.Ithinkofitasajoyousthing.

Dave: It'sexciting.

Dennis: Ifyouliketolearn,there'ssomuchforyoutolearn.Trytokeeptheattitudeofachild.Keepyourcuriosity,becausetheworldisamarvelousplace,andweonlyunderstandpartofit.That'sabigonerightthere.Secondone,don'ttakeyourselftooseriously.Don'ttakeanybodyelsetooseriously.Keepyoursenseofhumor.That'sanimportantone.Wedon'tunderstandmuch,andwe'rejustsortofalongfortheride,sowhythefrownyface?Wehavegoodreasontobecuriousandtoenjoylifeandenjoyeachother.Thethirdone?Well,Iguessmainly,probably,asaperson,Idon'tpracticethisasmuchasIshould,butthethirdoneisguardyourhealth.Stayashealthyasyoucaninmindandbody.That'sthemostimportantthingyouhave.Thatandthepeopleyoulove.Wearealongfortheride.Wearehavingahellofaride,sokeepyourselfinshapesothatyoucanenjoytheride.LikeIsay,Ishouldtakethatadvicemoretoheart.Idomybest.

Dave: You'relivingagoodlife,that'sforsure.

Dennis: Iamveryluckyinthatway.

Dave: Dennis,thanksalotforbeingonBulletproofRadio.Yourbookis"TheBrotherhoodoftheScreamingAbyss,"andit'savailableonAmazonandbookstores?


21

Dennis: Amazonandfromthewebsiteofthesamename,brotherhoodofthescreamingabyss.com.

Dave: Allright.

Dennis: Youcangetasignedcopythere.Amazondoesn'tdosignedcopies.Eitherplace.There'saKindle

edition.Yeah,sothankyouforlettingmementionthat.

Dave: Ofcourse.ArethereanyotherURLsorresourcesyou'dliketodirectpeopleto?OurBulletproofreaderslovetoreadbooks.

Dennis: Theotherone,ofcourse,iswementionederowid.org,butalsoHeffterResearchInstitute,whichisheffter.org.

Dave: H-E-F

Dennis: H-E-F-F-T-E-R.We'reanon-profit.We'vebeenaround20years,andinmanyways.Heffterisleadingthechargewhenitcomestodevelopingsomeofthesetherapeuticprotocols.MAPSisveryfocusedonMDMA,andHeffteriskindoffocusedonpsilocybin,notbecauseweplanneditthatway.Itjusthappenstobegoodformanythings.IguessthethirdthingIcouldmention.Iwon'tsaymuchaboutit,butI'vestartedastart-upcompanynow.Wefinallyhaveformedanalliancewithsomefriendswhoactuallyunderstandbusiness,whichIdon't.They'vetakenthatpartoverandsowehaveastart-upcompanythatwe'reveryoptimisticabout.It'scalledSymbioLifeSciences,andhopefullyyou'llbehearingmoreaboutit.

Dave: Excellent.Brotherhoodofthescreamingabyss.com,erowid.org,andsymbio.com.

Dennis: Symbiolifesciences.com

Dave: Oh,symbiolifesciences.com.We'llputallthoseintheshownotesforyou,incaseyou'redrivingandyoudon'twanttogetaticketbecauseyoujusttriedtotypethatintoyourphonewhileyouranintotheguyinfrontofyou.

Dennis: Yes,don'tdothat.Don'tdothat.

Dave: Allright.

Dennis: Allright,Dave,it'sbeenarealpleasure.You'reawonderfulinterviewer.I'vereallyenjoyedthis.Ihopewecancirclebackonthisoneofthesedays.It'sbeenfun.

Dave: Thanks,Dennis.You'realwayswelcometocomebackontheshow.

Dennis: Okay,thankyou.

Dave: Ifyouenjoyedtoday'sshow,youknowwhattodo.HeadonoverandpickupacopyofDennis'book,because,well,it'safunreadandyou'llprobablylearnsomething.Pleasealsodoheedthe


22

multiplewarningsthatbothofustalkedabouthere.Don'tplayaroundwiththisstuff,ifyoudecidetodoit.Knowit'sprobablyillegalwhereyoulive.Idon'tknowwhereyoulive.There'saglobalaudienceforthis.Italsocanbedangerous,andpeoplecantakeadvantageofyou,andetc.etc.,butitalsocanhavesomeprofoundhealing.Findpeopleyoutrustifyou'regoingtodoitandobeyalllocallaws,regulations,talktoyourdoctors,anddoallthatotherkindofstuffyou'resupposedtodo.Haveanawesomeday.

Dave: Thanksforwatching.Don'tmissout.Tokeepgettinggreatvideoslikethisthathelpyoukickmoreassatlife,subscribetotheBulletproofYouTubechannelatbulletproofexec.com/youtube,andstaybulletproof.

transcript – adventures in ayahuasca & psychedelic ... · bulletproof radio dennis mckenna...

Documents