Podcast from: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/2015/10/the-zen-of-chinese-

adaptogenic-herbs-an-interview-with-the-inventor-of-worlds-most-potent-adaptogens/

[0:00] Introduction

[3:55] Roger Drummer

[7:50] The Art of Extracting Herbs in China

[8:44] Why Trust Extraction Method in China

[11:04] Eleuthero

[12:34] What Does it Mean for an Herb to be Wild Crafted

[14:33] Why Not Cultivate the Herbs?

[15:44] How to Know That Herb is Something Good

[18:21] How to Mix Herbs

[19:48] What is an Adaptogen

[21:12] How to Track Adaptogen Effect

[22:30] Clinical Ways to Test Adaptogen

[24:12] Meaning of KSM66

[27:37] What is Resveratrol 98

[29:44] Resveratrol Controversy

[32:52] Vitacholine

[37:00] Importance of Adaptogens in your Life

[39:03] D-ribose

[45:18] System of Standard Herbs

[50:07] The Main Differences Between Tian Chi and Inner Peace

[52:23] Quantum Physics

[1:01:15] End of Podcast

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In this episode of The Ben Greenfield Fitness Show:

"Even though the big chemical is important, it's the ratio or synergy between that

ingredient and the other one's in it, that make it work the way it does. You are working

out but it regulates, your nervous system regulates your glandular system. Have

everything easily go in to balance or homeostasis. But again, you have to look at the whole

idea of stress. What happens during stress, people get weak adrenals, they get worn out”.

“Americans have seemed grown in this country, it's cultivated and it's nothing compared

to the energetics of a wild root especially one that grows eight to twenty years”.

Ben: Hey folks, it's Ben Greenfield! And my guest on today's podcast is a guy by the

name of Roger Drummer. Now I've personally known Roger for over five years, maybe a

little bit even more than that. And I think it's been about three years since I've actually

had Roger on a podcast. Roger was actually on a podcast that we did on Chinese medicine.

Well, I figured it was high time that I have Roger back on the podcast, not just because

we've actually been talking quite a bit about plant-based medicine and wild-crafted herbs

and things like that in podcasts of late. But also, because Roger is the formulator of one

of my favorite potent little packets of Chinese adaptogenic herbs called Tian Chi which he

actually just released a sugar-free version of. And so, I want to ask him a little bit more

about that and what goes into that formulation as well. So, who is Roger? Well, Roger is

a Chinese herbal adaptogen formulator. He is also a certified nutritionist and a diplomate

of Chinese herbology. He has a patent for a process to grow biologically active

anthocyanin-enriched medicinal mushrooms and later we will ask him exactly what that

is. And Roger really is in my opinion one of the best-kept secrets in natural medicine and

health and you won't hear him on a lot of podcasts. You don't hear him as a guest making

all the rounds and everything like that. But he's a wealth of information particularly on

things like tonic herbs. Roger interestingly has also trained on Shiatsu, Jin Shin Do, Reiki,

Kriya Yoga, and he's also a former triathlete. He's a runner, he's a cycling enthusiast, he's

got three girls, he's a family man as well. So really interesting guy, wealth of knowledge

and today we get the pleasure of learning all about adaptogen mushrooms and much more

with Roger. So, Roger, thanks for coming on the show, man.

Roger: You're welcome. I'm really glad to be here.

Ben: Yeah! Which part of the country are you in right now?

Roger: I just moved last year to Henderson, Nevada which is a little suburb of Las Vegas.

Ben: Interesting! I didn't get the chance to talk about this with you but I'm headed down

there to Henderson next month to race the World's Toughest Mudder down there. Have

you heard of that event?

Roger: Well, no. I haven't. I know they have a triathlon here. That's pretty tough. But

I haven't heard that one.

Ben: They have very tough triathlon. They used to have the triathlon world

championships down there for half Ironman in Henderson, Nevada on Lake Las Vegas

and this year, they are also doing, as they have I think the past two years, the World's

Toughest Mudder there which is, I believe, it's a ten-mile loop with as many rounds of

that ten-mile loop as you can do in 24 hours, and I think the winner last year did

something like 95 miles which during that 24 hours is pretty impressive but to run it with

obstacles, monkey bars, swimming and cliff diving and stuff like that, is smokin’. So

anyways, I'm curious, you being a Chinese herbologist and a formulator of a lot of these

adaptogenic compounds, what do you actually do? When I close my eyes, I picture you as

wearing some conical, straw Chinese harvester hat bent over a garden harvesting

compounds. But I'm sure it's not entirely like that. How exactly does your day go?

Roger: No, because Chinese herbs obviously aren't grown in this country, you can get

them in dry form and I have quite a few buckets of those around the office here but most

of the work you do is extracts. The Chinese have perfected the art of extracting herbs.

And they have been doing it for thousands of years. You can't get a better herbal extract

than something that's made out of China. And I specialize in those types of herbs. I have

jars and kilo bags of probably 50 different extracts. That's what I use on a regular basis.

And I formulate or mix those whenever I need it. Play around with a formula or to taste

it or get samples of it. But pretty much, I get my maximal herbs from one source because

I know they are wild crafted. I know how they make every single one of the extract. They

are not made like most companies, just make a five to one or something like that, they are

specifically made to that particular type of herb and its chemical make-up, and its physical

attributes of the herbs.

Ben: Now how is an herb actually extracted? What is it that they are doing in China, for

example, that makes that extraction method something that you would trust so much?

Roger: Well, again, they had thousands of years of working with that particular herb and

they know the exact part of the country where the best comes from. And where you can

get wild-crafted and then what they normally do will make a hot water extract just like

they use to make teas. Only they have the temperature regulated in a certain temperature.

There's a timing mechanism on it. Something might cook slow per day, something might

only cook for a few hours. If it has the essential oils, it has to be taken off and then put

back in at the end of the process which is part of the extract itself. There is something

different that goes on with almost every single herb. But the beauty of the source I have

for herbs is that is the science that they recognize that every herb has its maximum extract

strength. In fact, it was so funny when I started ordering herbs on Tian Chi, the first thing

they said to me was "do you really want to buy that good herbs? They cost a lot of money."

And I said, "Yeah, I want the really good stuff." And they go, "nobody buys that. But we'll

make it for you."

Ben: Interesting!

Roger: And so, they have every single herb like you've taken herbs that's glutinous, like

asparagus roots, eight pounds of that is between four and eight pounds is all you can use

to make a pound of extract. Whereas an herb like reishi mushroom, depending on the

season, that has to be a 12 to 15 to one extract. Because it's a woody type of mushroom.

It's take more of it to make or get a certain level of active ingredient. And the one that

always cracks me up is eleuthero ginseng because people will look at the label on eleuthero

and go "wow that's a 50 to one! That's really powerful!" No, not really. It takes you a

minimum of 50 pounds of that herb because it looks like a piece of wood that you run over

with your lawnmower. It takes 50 pounds of that to even get a pound extract out of it. So,

that's just the typical number.

Ben: So, for eleuthero you would have 50 pounds of the actual root and that gives you

one pound of the actual powdered extract that would be used to make, for example, a

supplement?

Roger: Yeah! That's true. It takes 50 pounds.

Ben: And they are extracting that with, you said, just temperature-controlled water?

There's not like oils or alcohols involved?

Roger: No, there are alcohols involved in certain herbs but those are ones that have a

bit of essential oils or active ingredients that just doesn't come out right from water. So,

you might do that with particular herbs. But generally, it's a hot water extract. And it's

just that time varies for each one. And they have to render the herb into a form that's

extractable, so they have to pulverize it, chop it into certain sizes to make it extract well.

Like a reishi mushroom, you want to be able to slice it. Then it needs more to be exposed

to the water. But then it's just a long cooking process. And then at the end, they spray

dry it and remove the water and you're left with an [00:12:11] ______. And this is again

unusual we do, we buy just pure herbal essence, we don't use any spray, even filler on the

spray like a lot of times, we'll spray it with a starch of maltodextrin and spray it out and

dry it on a licorice powder, and we don't use any of that. We just have straight herbal

extracts.

Ben: So, what does it mean for an herb to be wild-crafted? You used that term a couple

of times so far. I'm curious what exactly that is.

Roger: That means they are not farmed. They're not grown on a farm. They don't have

a big plantation where they're just planting that particular herb. And the people in that

area, just go out and harvest wild herbs from the forest and out in nature. And they bring

it in to be tested and sold at markets so they bring it into the factory to be tested and if it's

accepted then it's made into an herbal extract.

Ben: Is there an advantage in doing that? I had a guest who does extractions from a

company called Urban Moonshine on a few episodes ago.

Roger: I listened to that. Yes, it's great.

Ben: And he talked about higher levels of anti-oxidants in the wild grown plants because

they have been exposed to higher amounts of environmental stressors, and animals, and

sunshine, and cold, and heat, and stuff like that. Is that why you would want to go into

wild-crafted or is there some other reason?

Roger: Well, that is why. The other one is that it's never been sprayed. But the main

reason is there is a wild energy to it. There is a potency that you could call in the western

terms like detox, more anti-oxidants, more levels of different chemicals in the plant. But

the reality is there is a wild energy to it. It's just more potent. And it's not really any

different than people. If you have someone who grows up and everything is given to them

and they never have to do anything most of their life and they encounter a crisis, they will

handle it the same way as someone who's had lived in the wild in life or didn't have

anything done for them and they had to struggle. They knew what struggle and hardship

and winning was all about, it's the same. People develop character through hardship.

Ben: Couldn’t you just cultivate the herbs? It seems easier. Couldn't you cultivate them?

Farm them? And then for the lack of better word, beat the crap out of them somehow?

By introducing some kind of stressors into a farm environment? To me that seems like it

would be more productive from a business standpoint but is there a reason they don't do

that on farms?

Roger: Well, probably because it's too labor-intensive but in China, there's so much of

that country that's wide open, wild space. They have huge amounts of herbs growing in

everywhere, millions and millions of pounds of herbs are harvested all the time. For

instance, ginseng, not too many people ever really experience great ginseng and that's an

herb that is if cultivated it's practically has, in my opinion, very little use. And yet that's

most American ginseng grown in this country is cultivated and it's nothing compared to

the energetics of a wild root especially one that grows eight to twenty years.

Ben: How do you know where you're at? Like when you order this stuff from China and

it gets to you. Are you just like tasting it and seeing what you feel like? Do you have some

kind of like analysis equipment that you're looking at? Or are you just going by feel and

experience? How do you exactly know when you get something that it's good?

Roger: Well, I have been working with herbs for so long and the company I actually get

my stuff through specializes in wild-crafted herbs and I've been using them since the early

90s. So, I'm real familiar with that company and their whole process and how many times

they are inspected in China and everything that goes into that. But I also have a real

intuitive feel for certain extracts and herbs because in Chinese medicine part of that is just

energetics and you kind of learn through your own process of how to become more in

tuned with that and feel it. Plus, studying things like Jin Shin Do and Reiki, it's all part

of this healing modality thing, you become a little sensitive to things but I can taste this

company's extracts and they're just off the charts compared to other companies' extracts.

You can just almost when you look at it you can feel the vibrancy of it and you have a feel

for it and we used to do experiments in the herb workshop, we would get kilos from five

different companies and we would not tell anybody and we just sit out bags and we'd all

taste it and feel it and it was always the same company. Every single time, everybody pick

the same company over everything else.

Ben: Interesting! It's like blind tasting wine, huh?

Roger: And you know ginseng roots, you can't buy off of anybody. You actually have to

go down to a Chinese store in Chinatown that specializes in wild roots and you have to go

through the trays yourself to pick those out. So, if you're going to make an extract of that,

you have to make the trip to LA which has great ginseng shops. And you have to go to the

trays and go to the roots one-by-one. And you'll know exactly which ones you want if you

are doing that. It's almost like the root picks you out while you're standing there. Kind of

hard to explain.

Ben: You are in your office and you’ve got like buckets of these herbal extracts around,

etcetera, dried powders, extracts from 50 pounds of ginseng that's been brought down to

one pound of concentrated extracts, how do you decide like when and where to use the

herbs? How to mix them, etcetera? What goes into that?

Roger: Well, that's part of a process that's been going on for so long that you have a basic

knowledge about how all of them work and how to combine them but the amounts and all

that comes from just the experience of standing behind a counter and putting people on

program since 1990. So, it's been a long time. So, I have a feel for how things work. I've

given tens of thousands of people and I know how they react and besides just giving them,

I always get feedbacks on all that's working with the same people over that span of time,

so I spent a good 14 years doing nothing everyday but putting people on programs.

Cooking people's specific herbs, we have a cooker in the store. Putting them on capsule

formulas, powders, making them drinks. I have a feel, it's a feel you just get for herbs.

I'm sure just about any herbs from China has that same thing, same intuitive feel that

comes to you but it's based on a knowledge that you have about everything and how it

works. And even Tian Chi is based on information I started gathering about adaptogens

way back in the mid-90s.

Ben: For people who don't really understand that term "adaptogen," can you explain

exactly what an adaptogen is?

Roger: Sure! It's pretty simple. If you can think about just the word adapt. What is

adapt? So, you're adapting to a situation - you're changing slightly to function better in a

situation. That's what adapting is. And your body does it every time you walk into a room

with air-conditioning or you walk into a hot room and adjust itself. It's part of

homeostasis, right? Well, an adaptogenic herb is an herb that works on a particular part

of your glandular system. Because your glandular system is your internal, almost

regulating system, that is part of homeostasis that regulates how your body reacts and

adjusts to almost everything. And so, an adaptogen will have an effect on one of the major

glands, usually the pituitary, the adrenals, the hypothalamus, and some of them will have

an effect on every single gland in your body. And it's pretty fascinating that if you have a

really good adaptogen like wild ginseng or reishi mushrooms is another one. Reishi

mushroom is amazing in that if you take it and have a weak thyroid, the energy will go to

your thyroid for about five minutes and then it will move and go somewhere else.

Ben: How are you tracking that?

Roger: I used to belong to a group of healing that did a lot of hands-on healing where

you train yourself to feel energy. In fact, you could hand somebody something and

actually measure how energy is affecting a certain part of their body. I know it sounds out

there but when I started doing it I thought that's crazy. But you know what, after a year

or two of doing it I became really good at it. And if you have 10 people do on different

occasions measure something that someone's holding, they will all come up with the same

idea and they don't know what the substance is. You really start to see that it's something

that actually is happening. You could track how things actually move.

Ben: Like muscle testing or kinesio testing, that type of thing? Where you see whether

or not?

Roger: You can be asking through kinesiology to test. I was part of a group that met

twice a week for years at just was a healing clinic so there is a lot of energetic medicine

going on, a lot of healing. It's just asking people how they feel and where they're feeling

it in their body; where does it affect them.

Ben: Are there clinical ways to test these types of things or technologies that exists to

show that for example a particular adaptogen might be increasing cortisol when cortisol

is low or decreasing cortisol when cortisol is high? Or that type of thing?

Roger: Well, there's a lot of scientific tests on adaptogens like ashwagandha and

eleuthero ginseng that all shows effects on cortisol. Probably, the one herb that has the

most clinical research that I know of for lowering cortisol and actually regulating it. It's

not just a lowering effect. It can bring it back up is ashwagandha. Ashwagandha seems

to have the most clinical research on it for working on cortisol issues. In fact, in most

research it will adjust your cortisol so it will lower if it's excessive by up to 25 to 30%

within a month. If you're taking a certain dose of it. And it's not that high.

Ben: That was one of the reasons that I began using and began recommending Tian Chi

is because I was dealing with adrenal fatigue issues related to Ironman training

specifically. And was using that to help with cortisol regulation and some of other

symptoms of adrenal fatigue and I want to kind of delve into the formulations a little bit

and exactly what they mean because frankly I don't know how many dozens of different

herbal extracts that you have in Tian Chi but there is a few that I want to ask you

specifically about. And I guess this ashwagandha that you mentioned can maybe a good

starting point. I noticed that on the label next to ashwagandha, it says KSM66. And by

the way, if any of you want to view the label, it's over at

bengreenfieldfitness.com/askroger. Just go to bengreenfieldfitness.com/askroger, you

will be able to see the show notes. But next to ashwagandha Roger says KSM66, what

exactly does that mean?

Roger: That is a brand name of an organic ashwagandha that's grown in India. And I

love this particular ashwagandha, not only just because it's organic, but it's made by a

single-family company and that's the only thing they make. And it's one of the highest

qualities and one of the only ashwagandhas that's made traditionally. In other words,

they are just using the root. And the root is what is always been used in studies in

ayurvedic medicine. It's the only part that they ever really use as an extract, and so it's

also one of the only ashwagandhas I know that's been to rigorous testing for sports and

has absolutely no negative effects on blood test.

Ben: Interesting! So, they'll take specific strains and evaluate their purity based on

things like whether or not you might get tested and banned for doping or something like

that?

Roger: Well, because they do have Olympic athletes on it, they pretty much got a profile

for that particular herb and where they grow it. It's the extract strength too that makes

the difference. You don't ever want to extract an herb out to a single chemical. For one

reason, a single chemical type herb, if you take too much of it, it might show up at

something, right? But it also won't work the same way in your body. If you extract an

adaptogen, let's say, out of just one large amount of a chemical that you thought was only

a chemical that herb probably would not work as an adaptogen anymore because there's

literally thousands of things in an herb that support the function of what you think might

be a big chemical. Even though the big chemical is important, it's the ratio or synergy

between that ingredient and the other ones in it that make it work the way it does. And

so, you just have to find a company that recognizes that and makes a really good pure

extract. Energetically I just felt better taking that ashwagandha than any other one I've

ever taken.

Ben: Interesting! So, in the field of herbology, when you see something like

ashwagandha or ginseng or something like that, they'll then take specific strains and

extracts and give them names like this, like KSM66, so that you know that's the word for

that specific strain and that's been tested in a manner and extracted them in a specific

manner.

Roger: You know that that particular root has been tested with athletes, it's been put to

testing for regulating cortisol. It's been put to testing for increasing sexual energy and

testosterone, it's been put through all these different tests and you can just find it real

easily on the website, on the internet to check it out yourself.

Ben: Got it! Now another thing that I noticed on the label is the resveratrol. The form

of resveratrol is called 98% trans resveratrol and that's something new that changed on

this most recent version of Tian Chi. Why is that significant? What is resveratrol 98?

Roger: Resveratrol 98% is trans resveratrol which is the active form of resveratrol and

that's the anti-oxidants that's been getting so much research at Harvard and all over the

world for being an anti-aging supplement. It regulates your blood sugar, it stops or

lengthen your telomeres which is that cap at the end of your DNA that has to do and shows

how much you're aging and how fast you're aging. It's an amazing anti-oxidant and the

reason we put the 98% on the label is because that particular nutrient is one of the few

herbs that you should extract the active ingredient out of and get rid the most for the other

herb. Because the herb is a medicinal type of herb that shouldn't be used in a formula like

we have. And it's pretty much doesn't have any use of a tonic herb, it's more of a medicinal

thing. So, you want to just extract out the 98% and then put it into something else to

enhance the energy of it. And most people are selling 50% trans resveratrol extracts. And

they're not just very cure and that particular extract again is an organic extract that we get

and that's grown in an organic farm, on a plateau in Tibet. We don't put organic on the

label just because the rest of it is well crafted so having one thing that's organic doesn't

stand out that much but that is an organic herb from a 10,000-acre farm on a plateau in

Tibet.

Ben: Wow! In a plateau in Tibet just sounds sexy.

Roger: Oh, it does! (laughs)

Ben: (laughs) I am curious though when it comes to resveratrol, wasn't there a little bit

of controversy behind that anti-aging research? I remember seeing something like you

have to drink 40 bottles of wine to get the equivalent of resveratrol used in the studies, et

cetera? What wound up being the final verdict on resveratrol and anti-aging from that

study? I remember it was a few years ago, and there's a little of controversy surrounding

as everyone rushed out to drink three rather than one glass of wine with dinner.

Roger: Well, the truth is that to have a good dose of resveratrol which we have in our

products, we actually have a hundred milligrams of it in our products and we use that

much because that is a real potent dose of standard dose that you would want to have of

resveratrol everyday so we put that in each strain. Well, to get that amount of resveratrol,

this is where the controversy comes in, it's because the wine industry promoted drinking

wine because it has that in it. They think that's why the French don't have as much heart

attack because they drink red wine. Well, you probably have to drink between, depending

on the wine, a hundred to a thousand glasses of wine to get that same dose we have on

Tian Chi. It's almost impossible to get it. That's what they call the French paradox by the

way. They think that it's the resveratrol in the wine but it has more to do with eating

habits. And the fact that they don't live on junk food like most Americans.

Ben: Or snack as frequently as us. That's the thing I've heard about the French is that

you don't have the freedom to come in and out of the kitchen and just grab things out of

the refrigerator [00:31:30] ______ when you were a kid.

Roger: Yeah. Every time I've been to Paris, I've never seen a single person walking

around with a bag of snacks eating anything, chips or anything. I just don’t see it. But

the whole controversy on resveratrol was not whether or not it works or whether it did all

the things that they claimed that it did. It was the fact that you could get it out of wine.

When that research originally came out, the wine sales in America went crazy and it never

slowed down. It was the greatest boost to the wine industry of all time in America. It

changed the whole industry.

Ben: That’s right. We all take great pleasure in the fact that we are having our cake and

eating it too. Indulging in wine while at the same time living longer. I do personally still

have a glass of red wine every day but I can't say it's because I think it's got boatloads of

resveratrol in it. It's just a good way to unwind. I think it's more the ethanol than the

resveratrol that I like.

Roger: Yeah, I drink red wine occasionally too. And I'm not going to lie and say it's

because of anti-oxidants.

Ben: So, I'm curious, because we've talked before on shows and in articles about how I

consider Tian Chi to also be somewhat of a smart drug in terms of like a nootropic

compound that can help to enhance cognitive performance. And you notice a lot these

smart drug and herbal formulas for mental performance now are using derivatives of

choline, like phosphatidylcholine or other forms of choline. And I did notice that Tian

Chi does have a form of choline in it but it's called Vitacholine. I'm curious what exactly

Vitacholine is and if it is different in the type of choline I might get in my fish oil, for

example.

Roger: Yes, Vitacholine, the reason we use that and the trademark name is it's a specific

line of choline. And the one we use comes without any off-taste or odor to it. Basically,

they made a really highly clean extract. Most people don't put a lot of effort into cleaning

their choline that much so it smells. It smells kind of almost like a fish. And so, the

Vitacholine is very clean and has one of the actual highest levels of the actual choline in

it. People don't realize when they read choline on the label, it could only be 10% of the

actual extract is choline or 20%. And so, we went with Vitacholine because the latest

research shown in Europe and it's very fascinating. Europe has this standard that you

have to meet to be able to get anything sold in Europe. We had access to this research

because someone tried to claim a highly purified extract to get in the European market

and they had to prove that it was basically just choline and not the ultra-expensive

founding ingredient that it was, and so what they basically proved in the research is that

all choline, it doesn't matter what the form is that you ingest, goes a place in your

intestines and there it's all broken down to just basic choline and absorbed. So, it doesn't

matter what form you're taking it, it all comes to one place and the body takes the essential

choline out of it and uses it. And so, vitacholine, besides being clean, it tastes great, it has

the highest levels of choline of anything on the market. And it's around 40 to 42%,

somewhere around that.

Ben: What is it that choline is doing to cognition that’s important?

Roger: Well, the main thing is that it's combined with the right vitamins. Your body has

to have niacin, B6, B5, some of the things we have on Tian Chi. When you have that, it's

able to be metabolized into acetylcholine which is one of the four major neuro

transmitters in the brain. And it's one most important for attention, focus, acts as a

memory, laying down memory, it's the speed by which your brain works. In other words,

the ability to process information at a high rate depending on the level of the acetylcholine

activity in your brain.

Ben: Okay. Got you, that makes sense! And I want to understand when you use things

like aniracetam or piracetam or many of these smart drugs actually increased the rate of

choline use or the rate of acetylcholine turnover. And so, if you add in things like fish oil

or walnuts or other sources of choline apparently, you get more out of using something

like a smart drug.

Roger: You just can't take any supplement and not have a great diet backing it up. Every

little thing you do, whether you classify as a nootropic or not has an influence on your

brain. In fact, most people when they look at our formula, they think the whole brain

activity, the propriety nutraceutical blend that actually the herbed blend of adaptogens is

one of the most important things you could actually incorporate in your life if you want to

balance how your brain is actually working.

Ben: And why is that?

Roger: Because an adaptogen balances your glandular system. Your glandular system

is what is involved in the stress response. When you are having an excessive stress

response to where it's not shutting off properly because your system is a little worn out,

or you're just involved in so much stress. You have a tendency for the energy in your brain

to drop down to the center in your brain that's just involved with reacting to stress. And

so, if you're always residing in that area, the next time you have a stressor you just go right

into a stressor. Whereas, as an adaptogen because they will activate your pituitary and

balance your hypothalamus pituitary that tends to have your brain energy then reside

more up in the frontal cortex which is where you have creativity, focus, pleasure, all these

different things happening and if you're more in that center of your brain it's not that you

won't go into stress but it's harder to go into stress, it's harder to go into full on stress

because you're just seeing life differently, you're seeing the bigger picture.

Ben: Okay. So, that makes sense. So basically, what you're doing on one side you're

trying to provide the brain with things it needs like choline for example, and also

something else I want to ask you about, in a moment, is this D-ribose but then on the

other end, you're trying to regulate this HPA access. This hypothalamic pituitary adrenal

access so that you're not under a lot of stress. So, that you're not, for example, pouring

water on the fire on one end and gasoline on the other end.

Roger: Right, the beauty of it is that you can have your stress response because we're all

going to have them but your body being in a more balanced state will then go back into

healing phase where it shuts it off and regenerates again. And for the people who are just

caught up in the stress, they never experience that shutting off. That self-regulation, their

body never fully goes into homeostasis even when they're sleeping.

Ben: Got you! You also have something called D-ribose, bio-energy D-ribose, and I

noticed that on this new label that it's been raised from one gram of D-ribose up to four

grams of D-ribose. What exactly is the reasoning behind that?

Roger: Well, one of the reasons is that, ribose is probably the simplest way for your body

to just rebuild energy stores. It's used in the metabolic process of making ATP. So, if you

or someone who works out a lot really hard or you're extremely stressed and you have a

lot of issues going on that way or let's say you have a heart attack and you're trying to

recover, all these things involved using a tremendous amount of energy and then having

to make it again. And having D-ribose in your system because it’s the building block on

how the whole process starts, it's really easy for yourself to just replenish continuously

having D-ribose in your system. And so, what we led to the process in deciding that we

needed to take the sweetener out of our drink, we used to have six grams of fructose in

our drink and we decided that we would try replacing it with something and D-ribose is

just a natural way to do that. It looks like sugar, it flows. Flow is really important because

all these patterns have to go through a machine and it needs weight. It needs bulk. It

helps the herbs break up and all these different things. So, D-ribose, we just thought it's

perfect for that because we have so many people that are athletes anyway using our

products. And if we can enhance their experience and at the same time take the sugar off,

in the end D-ribose is just good for your brain, as it is for your heart and for anything else.

It's an amazing nutrient. Your cells need energy no matter what process you are talking

about. And so, it's just a natural thing to increase and make our Tian Chi with.

Ben: So basically D-ribose is something that your body uses like sugar without actually

spiking blood sugar but it produces enhanced ATP levels.

Roger: It does. In fact, D-ribose actually regulates your blood sugar. It has an effect of

lowering it, and regulating it. So again, it's a perfect type of nutrient to add to your drink.

Blood sugar issues are huge in this country.

Ben: I wanted to ask you about sugars too because in the past we have talked about Tian

Chi. One of the biggest things people have brought up is that the label says fructose or

used to say fructose. And it used to when you look at the total amount of sugar, I forgot

how many grams, but there are enough grams of sugar on there I would frequently get e-

mails and inquiries from people who wanted to know why I would recommend using, for

example, this little packet of Chinese herbs in the mid-morning when it was potentially

spiking blood sugar levels. What did you do to the formula to reduce the sugar or the

fructose and what exactly did you replace it with, if anything?

Roger: Well, part of it was D-ribose. We took six grams of fructose out and we added an

extra three grams of ribose so we have four grams of ribose in each pack which is a really

good dose. So, if you're taking ribose and buying it by itself in the standard dose is just

between four or five grams. And so, the other thing that we did though is we used an

herbal sweetener. And we used different forms of it. In fact, everybody is familiar with

stevia. And stevia is one of things that's extracted out into a white powder. Its 99% pure

and it’s the one molecule that stevia side that's really sweet. But you know what, that does

not have any body to it. So, you can't really cover anything up with stevia by itself. It just

doesn't work. But we found an extract that, was one of the first forms of stevia that ever

came out of the market, it's actually a brown herb. If you noticed in the Tian Chi formula

that we actually have stevia listed in the herbal formula itself. That is because the herb

when it's extracted and used as an herb actually has a blood sugar regulating effect on

your system. And it tastes like molasses. But nobody in this country makes it. We have

to have it specially made for us out of China and have it imported ourselves because

nobody has it. So, we found that out and started using that extract and because we have

the D-ribose level brought up and because that's slightly sweet and by combining the two

stevias we are actually able to come up with a flavor profile that completely get rid of the

sugar in it.

Ben: Interesting! I was actually pretty happy to see the sugar lower even for many active

people. The amount there initially is three or four grams or something like that but

essentially a speed bump for an active person will still interesting to see that the sugar

was removed. I know there's a lot of folks that kind of a Paleo/ketogenic/low carb

environment to appreciate that.

Roger: They inspired us to actually do that. I have to admit myself, I didn't mind the

sugar. But once I got the sugarless, I don't want to take the one with the sugar.

Ben: Yeah, I know it holds a special place in my refrigerator. I actually liked the taste

better than the previous taste. So, I'm curious in terms of the overall formula of the Tian

Chi complex, it's a shock ton of stuff. Again, if you look at the label, I'll put a link to label

folks and check it out at bengreenfieldfitness.com/askroger. Roger, is there a rhyme or

reason behind the herbal blend in terms of amount of things you put in there or does an

herbologist say "okay, these 15 things are good for you so I'm going to mix them

altogether." How exactly does it work in terms of choosing what goes where?

Roger: No, it never works like that. What you do is that you come up with an idea of

what you want to do. And Chinese herbologist are standard thousand years’ technique in

making the formulas. You have the king herbs, you have the herbs that support the king,

and you have the little peasant herbs down the bottom. They have a system by which they

have the standard herbs. The king herbs mean that it's the herbs that the formula is

centered around. That's the reishi mushrooms, schizandra, the ashwagandha, rhodiola,

the eleuthero, those are all adaptogens. Now even though they're all adaptogens, you

might wonder why we have five but each one of them even though they regulate your

glandular system. They most have the predominant for one gland and they have other

attributes to them. Like schizandra which is the first herb which is an amazing herb to

detoxing your liver and energizing your lung. They build lung chi, so you'd breathe

deeper. You make more out of your breath every time you breathe. It has a clearing effect

on your mind. And so, it's one of the best adaptogen, what we would say tonic herbs as

the food source herb. It's one of things you can have in your system every single day. And

it's just beneficial for you. It's used in beauty formulas all over China because it has an

amazing effect on the quality of your skin. So, it's a very powerful anti-oxidant.

And then you have reishi mushroom which we talked about earlier which has an effect in

every gland in your body but particularly it does have a very powerful effect on your

pituitary for regulating your entire system. Eleuthero is a famous one but its more on the

adrenal type of herb. And so, as you can see they all have different aspects to it. But that

is the main working just in the formula. Regulate your nervous system. Regulate your

glandular system. Have everything easily go in and to balance your homeostasis. But

again, you have to look at the whole idea of stress and what happens during stress, people

get weak adrenals. They get worn out, they get burned out. So, then you look at things

like we have epimedium, we have cistanches, eucommia, lycium, ho sho wu, all those

herbs are actually what are considered kidney tonics in Chinese medicine. Meaning that

they support the health of your kidneys, your adrenals, your skeletal system. Those are

all herbs that somebody could take if they broke a bone. Or had a fracture because it will

just heal your skeletal system so much quicker. And when you add them to adaptogens,

now the adaptogens can regulate your glandular system and when it happens actually

your adrenals go to that phase where you want to shut off the stress response. They want

to soak up the energy, you have the herbs there to do it. Energetically, everything is set

there to actually do it.

And then we have some other herbs there at the bottom that just support the action of the

whole formula. Things like polygala opens your heart to your more heart centered space

which works really well with adaptogens especially reishi mushrooms. Just a little bit of

licorice actually makes the herbs, the energetics go into every meridian in the body. So,

it doesn't take much. Licorice is kind of like throwing a pinch of salt in the dish when

you're just done cooking it. It just makes everything taste better and work better. And

that's kind of how that works. So, the whole thing has that energy to it. So, when you put

some together like that, I can kind of look at that as just being one herb. It's because it all

becomes almost like a meal to direct the body into its own state of balance. And it has

everything there to support that process no matter what the person has going on.

Ben: And it's best to use these kinds of things on an empty stomach. Correct?

Roger: It does. It works best on an empty stomach. Although if you're pretty healthy it

doesn't have to be exactly empty.

Ben: Okay. Now, there's also one of the thing that you formulate and it’s not a packet of

powder. It's a capsule. It's called Inner Peace. It's something that all sometimes like for

an afternoon nap. I'll take two or three prior to lunch and then I'll settle down after lunch

for a nap. It's relatively fail-proof in terms of settling me down for a good 40 to 60-minute

nap every time I take it. But the label appears somewhat similar to Tian Chi. What are

the primary differences though between Tian Chi and Inner Peace?

Roger: Well, Inner Peace is the herbal portion of Tian Chi and the whole idea was that

certain people didn't want to be up when they take Tian Chi. Tian Chi is formulated to

get you up to have fun, to be able to handle work, to be focused, to be engaged and to do

all these things. Inner Peace is more for that person who is extremely stressed or just

wants to unwind at the end of the day. It helps your body go back in the circadian rhythm

real easily so it helps people sleep at night. It shuts off the stress response. It helps your

body regroup and a lot of people just take it with their evening meal. They sleep better,

they tend to shut down from their stress at the end of the day. So, it's really just taking

the herbal part of it making a separate formula, almost like a recovery formula for your

day. And that's really the difference. Tian Chi has all this supporting brain nutrients and

all these things that make you really focused and clear for performing no matter athletics

or just work.

Ben: But you could theoretically use if you needed to for example a Tian Chi in the mid-

morning and Inner Peace before bed?

Roger: Oh yes, you could. It all depends on the person but the average person falls into

that, take Tian Chi in the morning, Inner Peace later in the afternoon. But we've had

people with anxiety, panic attacks and they'll take nine Inner Peace a day. And it will just

space them out. And it just works perfect for them. And within a few weeks, they cut it

down to something else. But you just kind of find your dose and what's actually going on

in your life and see how it works.

Ben: That's interesting! I've never personally taken more than three. Nine sounds like

a boatload. (laughs) I can try that N=1 out sometime when I have a bed nearby. So,

another question that I have for you. And this was actually a question or topic that you

brought up to me in an email exchange and something that I want to talk to you about.

You said that one of the things you find important is the role of stress reduction in

epigenetics and then also, this caught me by surprise, quantum physics. When we’re

talking about wild-crafted herbs reducing stress, etcetera. How exactly does Quantum

Physics fit into this equation?

Roger: Well, Quantum Physics is kind of a hobby of mine and what I find fascinating

about Quantum Physics, if you look at any of the books written by Amit Goswami, he's

been writing a lot on theoretical Quantum Physics. And basically, Quantum Physics is

explaining to me things they talked about 5,000 years ago, in Ayurvedic and Taoism out

of China and out of India. The principles which everybody thought were so based on

spirituality like Tantra and certain aspects of Taoism are easily explainable by Quantum

Physics because they're really talking about different dimensions of energy and they're all

not just a physical body. There's other energy aspects going on in our health. And if

you've ever read anything about morphogenic fields by Rupert Sheldrake, it gets into how

science has never actually figured out how a human being develops from one cell into all

the different things that are going on in your system. Think about it. You start out as one

cell and it starts dividing. How does that cell at a particular junction turn into your toe,

and one of them turn into your eye, and one of them turn into your nose. They're all the

same cell with the same DNA. There's no program actually in it. So, there's got to be a

field which has been classified as morphogenic field that actually carries the blue print by

how everything develops. Now think about this which is really fascinating. When a

human being is conceived, it goes through a process and one part of that process, it

actually has the tail and it has fins. And then you lose them. So why does that happen,

right? They don't know if you're going to be snake or a frog, right?

Ben: The tadpole stage.

Roger: Yeah, the tadpole stage. So why does that happen? Well, there's a pattern in

nature. There's a field that directs everything. Science recognizes that but they don't

know how to explain or how it works. And the same thing is talked about through for

thousands of years in different spiritual practices. So, what you kind of decide is it's

something actually spiritual or is it just part of the human experience we haven't

explained. So, that's where Quantum Physics comes in. And epigenetics is really about

they're saying how what determines your expression of DNA is actually a signal above the

cell. It doesn't happen in the cell. It's a signal telling the cell what to do. And where does

that signal come from? Well, a lot of times they talked about it just being your emotional

state. Because your emotions do make up the signal that actually goes into every cell. But

it might just be that extreme emotional stage shut off the signals to your cell and it's

responding in that way. So, that gets back into what is the field above everything else

that's influencing your whole body so that it determines how to make everything and then

how can you tap into that to make sure that your body is following the same blue print to

be in its best position to always be in that radiant state of health. It's not just the stuff you

take into your body that your physical body makes. It's the reaction of your body to the

field around you. And that's why one of the reasons why whole foods are so good for you.

The whole food plant and this is measurable by a certain topography, a whole food plant

has an intact energy field and different nutrient. You know it has different nutrients than

a processed plant, right? And it has a different stable energy field that is incorporated

into your system and has in effect separate from the nutrient. This is why you want to

take your herbs and extract it right, why you want to have organic clean whole foods. It

all has an effect.

Ben: So basically, this morphogenetic concept is that when a human being is developing,

you get areas of cardiac cells that eventually becomes hard tissue in areas of limb cells

that eventually become arm or leg tissue, and that even though we don't quite understand

why cells are differentiating to become those specific regions of the body that that doesn't

stop when we're being formed in our embryonic stage. It's basically other things such as

stress or perhaps even like electrical pollution or water or poor relationships or anything

else can also continue to affect us biologically even after we're born.

Roger: Yes, and all those things you mentioned are forms of stress - environmental

stress, emotional stress, all these things tend to block your energy and how you're

connected to that field. So eventually, maybe in the future medicine will be involved in

how to put you in a state with that field because it contains your original blue print by

which everything in your body was made. So, what if you could tap in into that with

certain illnesses and things and have it direct the body back into regeneration. And

changing the disease process.

Ben: Interesting!

Roger: It's pretty fascinating.

Ben: Yes, it is. It's kind of a cool thought experiment. You know we could go on forever

but ultimately, I think that if someone is listening and if you haven't yet tried this Tian

Chi stuff, these wild-crafted herbs, I recommend you get your hands on a box. Try a

packet. My preferred method is mid-morning on an empty stomach or about 20 to 30

minutes’ pre-workout on an empty stomach. And like I mentioned I like the Inner Peace

capsules prior to, for example, like an afternoon nap, I pop a few before lunch and then

fall asleep for an afternoon nap. But if you want to look over the full label and all the

ingredients in very specific form, or if you want to ask Roger or myself a question or if you

have a comment about a Chinese herbology or something else that you want to clear up

from this podcast episode, you can go to bengreenfieldfitness.com/askroger and I'll have

a link to Roger's website, and Tian Chi, and Inner Peace, and all these other pretty cool

Chinese herbology concepts. So, Roger, that being said, thanks for giving your time and

coming on the show today, man!

Roger: Oh, I loved it! I'd be glad to do it anytime you want.

Ben: Awesome, awesome! Cool! I will drop you a line if I survive the Tough Mudder

and have any time to kill down in Henderson. Come over to your place and sniff a few

buckets of these wild-crafted herbs, and see him up close face to face. So I may be in touch

here. So, we'll just have to see if I survive the actual event or whether or not I end up

dying down in Henderson. Thank you! You can come out and watch.

Roger: Alright!

Ben: Alright, cool. Folks, thanks for listening in and again you can visit

bengreenfieldfitness.com/askroger for the show notes and until next time on I’m Ben

Greenfield, on with Roger Drummer, signing out. Have a healthy week!

My guest on today's podcast is Roger Drummer. Roger is kinda like Raiden from Mortal Kombat (pictured above) – you know, the guy that wears

the conical, straw Chinese harvester and can generate magical orbs of electricity from his

hands.

Except, in this case, Roger plays with adaptogenic herbs. He's a Chinese herbal adaptogen

formulator, a Certified Nutritionist and NCCAOM Diplomate of Chinese Herbology, holds a

U.S. patent for developing a process to grow biologically active, anthocyanin-enriched medicinal

mushrooms, and is in my opinion, one of the best-kept secrets in natural medicine and health

enhancement. Roger even formulates personalized tonic herbs for thousands of clients, including

many notable celebrities (which I ask him about in this podcast episode), and has trained in

Shiatsu, Jin Shin Do, Reiki and Kriya Yoga, along with being a former triathlete, runner, cycling

enthusiast, husband and father of three girls.

I've personally known Roger for over five years, and it's been about three years since I've had

him on a podcast (see “Chinese Medicine & Why Sugars Don’t Add Up Right on Food

Labels.“), so I figured that it was high time I had him back, especially since he just released a

sugar-free version of my favorite adaptogenic herb complex: Tian Chi.

So what is an adaptogen? Adaptogens are a unique category of herbs that facilitate your body’s “adaptation” to stress.

They help your body maintain, build or fix its own natural healthy processes, even if you’re

exposed to a wide range of external and internal stressors.

This means, that, for example, adaptogens can help increase cortisol if cortisol is low, or

decrease cortisol if cortisol is high. They can also be used for anything from cognitive

performance to enhanced endurance at altitude.

Roger is actually the inventor of the exact Chinese adaptogenic blend that holds a special place

in my refrigerator: the one I mentioned above called Tian Chi . Here's the label:

Tian Chi is a tiny packet that contains an herbal tonic blend of the most renowned

adaptogens in the Orient. Every herb used in TianChi is far more pure and potent than typical old, ineffective and often

dangerous or nasty-ingredient laced herbs on the market. Very few products contain 100% whole

herb extracts. On average the herbal extracts are at least 10:1 yields, meaning it takes 10 pounds

of raw herb to produce 1 pound of pure extract. Most manufacturers start with pure yield and cut

them to concentrations of 4:1 or 5:1 by adding filler. This produces a cheaper, but less effective

extract. Imagine buying a 5:1 extract that originally was 45:1!

In stark contrast, the herbal extracts used in TianChi yield 12:1 or greater, and there is even one

herb in TianChi that is a 45:1 yield. In other words, you would have to take 9x as much herb

from any other source to equal the potency in TianChi. And you would be getting mostly filler,

harmful ingredients, and very few results.

All of the herbs in TianChi are Non-GMO, Kosher Certified and non-irradiated. They are

extracted in purified water and test free of heavy metals. And the creator uses only wild crafted

herbs – herbs found in their natural state, free from pesticides and exposure to pollution.

You will feel this stuff instantly, guaranteed. Below is a complete list of the pure and potent herbs you’ll find inside each pack of TianChi,

with a guarantee of extreme freshness.

-Schizandra – the “Five flavor berry” is known as a beauty enhancing herb, one of the main

herbs pictured with Lady Maku the Goddess of Beauty. It helps restores proper water

metabolism to the cells, detoxifies the liver and lungs, and is an important herb for building lung

energy. It tonifies the reproductive system, builds sexual fluids and moistens the skin. Schizandra

has been successfully used in China to treat hepatitis. It contains over 20 lignans that bind to

carcinogenic substances and safely removes them from the body. A mild adaptogen and powerful

anti-oxidant, schizandra is the Chinese equivalent to milk thistle.

-Reishi Mushroom – Reishi is known as the “Mushroom of Immortality,” and “Herb of Good

Fortune”. It is the most highly revered herb in China for its ability to brighten the mind and

spirit. Historically used for boosting immunity, liver detoxing, blood purifying and building, and

is known as a potent stress reliever.

-Ashwagandha– Ashwagandha is known as Indian ginseng and one of the most famous of all

Ayurvedic herbs. It is a premier adaptogen and has a profound effect on regulating the HPA Axis

(hypothalamus/pituitary/adrenal axis) which is the basis of stress response. Although many herbs

have been crowded into this category I still maintain that the “Gang of Four”, ashwagandha,

rhodiola, reishi and eleuthero, are truly substances that can effectively regulate stress response.

-Rhodiola – Rhodiola is known as the “Rose of Heaven” and “Plateau Ginseng.” It is one of the

premier adaptogens in the entire world and one of my personal favorites. Regarded as life-

prolonging and wisdom enhancing, it can reduce stress response, is blood purifying and is said to

balance both creative and cognitive functions of the brain. One of the best herbs for blood

oxygenation, it is useful for all endurance sports. Used to treat depression and chronic fatigue

and protects against radiation. It is a favorite herb for cosmonauts and mountain climbers.

Rhodiola is a “Three Treasure” tonic, it builds Jing, Chi and Shen.

-Ecklonia Cava – Ecklonia Cava is a seaweed extract that is the most potent plant based

antioxidant known. Because it is partially fat-soluble it crosses the blood brain barrier and is

particularly useful in controlling inflammation in the brain. Ecklonia Cava lasts for 12 hours in

the body, much more than any other antioxidant.

-Eleuthero – This is the herb that launched all of the studies on adaptogenic herbs. Commonly

used as an adaptogen in regulating stress response and strengthening adrenal function. It’s

famous as a physical endurance and mental enhancing herb used by cosmonauts for its blood

oxygen enriching properties. Eleuthero is a great herb for anyone who’s involved in sports or

work that demands strength and endurance. It’s more Chi building than Jing, even though I use it

primarily for its effect on the kidney-adrenal energy. Eleuthero is seldom sold as a bulk herb as

it’s not very nutrient dense. It takes over 40 lbs of good root to make one pound of powdered

extract.

-Epimedium – Fepimediumamous as “goat sex tea”, epimedium is known throughout the world

as herbal aphrodisiac. Lost in its reputation is that it’s also a great herb for increasing circulation

in the brain and improving general immunity. Epimedium adds a spark of Yang or fire to the

adrenals and has been shown to increase fertility. It is a Jing tonic.

-Cistanches – Its Chinese neucommia barkame is “Duzhong” having been named after a doctor

who took it and achieved great intellectual success. Eucommia is a premier Jing tonic as it

contains a perfect balance of Yin and Yang energy. Its main use is in bone strengthening

formulas and can be used for increasing fertility and regulating blood pressure.

-Gotu Kola – Gotu Kola is one of the most important rejuvenating herbs in Ayurvedic medicine.

It’s used to help revitalize the brain and nerve cells. Gotu Kola is historically used to increase

intelligence, memory, longevity and decrease senility. It has been known to support normal

immune function and adrenal energy. It is also a powerful blood purifier and is commonly used

in Ayurveda to treat chronic skin diseases. Gotu Kola is commonly used by monks and yogis in

the Himalayas as an aid to meditation; similar to how Reishi is used in China by the Taoist

monks.

-Albizzia Flower – This flower is known as the herb for “forgetting cares and sorrows” and

“collective happiness flower”. It is an ultimate Shen tonic and is often used improving memory,

circulation, and has mood elevating properties.

-Astragalus – Astragalus is one of the greatest Chi tonics in all of Chinese Herbology. It’s often

used as a ginseng replacement in younger people. Recently it has gain great popularity as an

immune building herb. It’s used to help strengthen digestion and lung function, for recovery

from illness and as an energy building herb. It is said to build Upright Chi, meaning when the

lungs are strong and the breath is deep, it promotes good posture and holds the organs in place.

Astragalus is an excellent herb for maintaining the Protective Chi circulating on the surface of

the skin helping to ward off seasonal illness. If the cold wind seems to bother your neck it’s often

a sign you’re Protective Chi is weak.

-Green Tea – One green tea of the most powerful plant-based antioxidants, green tea builds

immunity, increases circulation and is a best known for it’s anti-inflammatory properties. Studies

have shown it to be valuable for memory enhancement. Most of green tea’s antioxidant

polyphenols are from a class called catechins of which EGCG seems to dominate. It has been

described as natures most potent anticancer agent.

-Polygonum (Ho Shou Wu) – translates as “Ho’s black hair” one of the main kidney

restoratives in Chinese herbology. Legend has it that Ho, an aging lonely hermit living on the

edge of town saw a vine intertwined on his walk through the forest. The vines resembled a

couple embracing and so he harvested the root, cooked it and consumed the tea. His hair turned

back to black from snow white (hence the name) and he actually married and had a son. They

both lived to over 100 years old and the herb has since been called Ho’s black hair.

-Lycium (Goji) – LyciGojium is a restorative for the liver and kidneys, popular these days as

Goji, and one of the 5 most famous herbs in China. Reputed to be the main food of Li Chen

Yuang for the first 125 years of his life (he added some ginseng root for the next half of his life).

Li died at a banquet in his honor after consuming a heavy dinner (he was a Taoist hermit who

lived on herbs and vegetables) causing a national uproar and disgrace for the public official who

hosted the event.

-Other herbs: Anemarrhena, Licorice, Polygala, Clubmoss, Cocoa Bean Extract, Stevia Leaf,

Acerola Cherry, and Raspberry.

During my discussion with Roger, you'll discover: -The delicate process via which wildcrafted herbs are actually extracted in China, and exactly

how they find their way to the USA…

-The important difference between wild and cultivated herbs…

-Roger's top herb recommendation for regulating cortisol levels and eliminating adrenal fatigue

issues…

-The truth about whether resveratrol really does have an anti-aging effect…

-How D-Ribose rebuilds your energy stores and ATP levels, and exactly how much you need…

-Why so many smart drugs and nootropic compounds use the substance “choline” in their

formulations, the form of choline that contains the highest concentrations of actual choline…

-Why Roger isn't a fan of using regular stevia mixed with adaptogenic herb extracts, and instead

uses a specialized form of stevia root…

-The main differences between Tian Chi and Inner Peace…

Resources from this episode: –Tian Chi Chinese Adaptogenic Herb Complex

–Inner Peace Chinese Adaptogenic Herb Complex

-My previous podcast with Roger “Chinese Medicine & Why Sugars Don’t Add Up Right on

Food Labels.”

–Roger's Herbworks website