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Tamil Brahmins (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/index.php) - Current Affairs (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27) - - take over of chidambaram temple by tamil nadugovernment (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=1863)

prabhakaran123 02-06-2009 06:31 PM

take over of chidambaram temple by tamil nadugovernment The Chennai High court delivered its judgement approving the appointment of an adminisrter and take over by Government, ousting the Deekshidars from the scene .

One need not go in to gamut of the issue. It is pertinent to read the important observatlions of teh honourable justice, that whenever whenever a paty adminstrating the temple does not keep proper accont and there are lapses, the Government can appint adminstrator.

Now the ball is in Deekshidars court. They have to state the real positon of accounts, and publicie it. Whether the Charity Commissoner has received the acounts in time. Whether the religous trust has submitted the return t the Income tax Departament for verification, and whether they have been properly audited, are the issues onec has to find answer.

Many trust grow over time, especialy trust, which are public and religious.Even Tirumala devastanam, shirdi devasthanam, face the same problem.

Howeve the Government have got a duty to compensate the lively hood of those Deekshidars who have been maintaining the trust over years,whowre dependanat on this profession for time immemorial.

General feeling among many is that the anti brahmin tamil nadu govermentis politicising this withthe help of various cross sections.

While there should not be any oppositin from deekshidars side to chant devaram and thiruvachagam, the government should also encourage the age old traditon of chanting slokas in sanskrit.

The Government should not paly with the sentiments of the people.

Prabhakaran.

d

s007bala 02-06-2009 09:43 PM

shri prabhakaran

Kazahgams will take over temples only where huge revenue is pouring.If there is no money in undyal,govt will let dikshitars keep the temple.Root cause of take over is money.Poor

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dikshitars,their livelihood is stopped.

In the same way,is the kazagham leaders,stopping their own practice of stopping the children to become manthiris?Father is CM,automatically son or daughter is groomed?Why becoz the son or daughter is aidiot who knows nothing but what daddy or mummy did?

So,double standards.Why,becoz people are number one idiots,who cave in to these sick minded leaders!!A curse for India,in my opinion.Kula Kalvi Thittam,as Rajaji used to say!!Again a paarppan is right,rofl..:)

sb

s007bala 02-06-2009 10:30 PM

re Dr.Swamy to file PIL against Tamilnadu DMK Govt’s take over of Chidambaram Temple

By janamejayan February 4, 2009.Statement of Dr. Subramanian Swamy,President of the Janata Party.I have decided in the public interest in the Appeal to be filed in the Madras High Court against the Single Judge order of February 2, 2009 directing the Tamil Nadu Government to take over the management of the 1200 Nataraja temple in Chidambaram.This Order has to be challenged in the larger national and public interest of opposing State control of Hindu religious institutions. Reasonable regulation on governance of these temples and such institutions is welcome, but State take-over is abhorrent to the concept of genuine and enlightened secularism, and moreover is discriminatory since mosques and churches are completely exempt by the Government from any scrutiny or regulation.( SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY )

Seshadri Subramaniam 02-07-2009 09:38 AM

Is it possible for brahmins to show their protest now?

tbs 02-07-2009 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 17566) Is it possible for brahmins to show their protest now?

hi sesh sir.i saw a pic of chidambaram dikshtars with jayalalitha in dinamani e paperyesterday.......but there is no single word of protection from swamijisso called protectors of hinduism/bhrahmins.......its pity situation fordikshitars........i heard the news that the govt put hundial in natarajatemple........govt wants money ........nothing to do religion...vote bank politics.......nobody has gutts to touch mosques/ churches.....

regardstbs

happyhindu 02-07-2009 09:58 AM

can someone tell what is the story from the beginning. how did this situation come about and why?

this also shows the need for unity...the need to put aside any differences if present, put aside the difficult portions of the past, unite within first, productively interact with other communities, and ask together, as one massive group, can the govt still refuse?

tbs 02-07-2009 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happyhindu (Post 17570) can someone tell what is the story from the beginning. how did this situation come about and why?

this also shows the need for unity...the need to put aside any differences if present, put aside the difficult portions of the past, unite within first, productively interact with other communities, and ask together, as one massive group, can the govt still refuse?

hi HHthere is some high court order to take over chidambaram temple by TN govt.....its long legal battle story going on....so kazgams aremore intersted in vote bank......through legal/democratic electionway , we can stop this.......but poonaikku yaru mani kattarathu...annanum kali aga mattan....thinnayum kali agathu...

regards

prabhakaran123 02-07-2009 11:01 AM

dear friendsthe thread started my me on chidambaram temple take over, has received spontaneous response from every one of us. Yes i agree, why the pontiffs ae silent on these issues. It is Dr Subramanian sway who has thought of waging legal battle.

Yes, it agree, the undial is one more source for collecting money by the DMK,problably to use in future as ita is used in thirumangalam election.

It si hight time tht the middle class literate come together and use the tool of vote to bring in to force a Government which is sane in its thinking.

Let us unite to gether.

[email protected] 02-07-2009 11:29 AM

SriP123, It is a long time dream for MK to take over this Temple,since his first wife(sister of C.S.Jayaram) from chidambaram. The Huge collection of money daily,another reson the Dikshters also give the temple for Cinima shooting and lot of complaint against them. But their livehood standstill. For details pl, go thro Tambaram Vision paper the article published to support the dikhthers and true picture what happend.Dt20.04.2008. All things happend only because of Arumugasamy, supported by Veduthali sruthaigal and communists for vote bank.If the Chennai High court having guts give same vertict to the Take over of Adi Parasakthi Temple accupied at GST Road and encrochments at HighWays Dept lands. The Temple Run by a Telugu man self style Adkalar belong to Naidu community.

Nacchinarkiniyan 02-07-2009 11:39 AM

The Chidambaram temple was constructed by the Tamil Kings and not the Dikshidars. The Dikshidars were entrusted with the administration of the temple by the Kings. It was the practice in the old days.

The Kasi Vishwanth temple was taken over by the government of U.P from the Brahmins who were running it. The same case with the Vaishno Devi temple in Jammu and the Panduranga temple in Pandharpur, Maharashtra. The reasons given in each case was maladministration by the Brahmins who were controlling it earlier. In all the three cases the public supported the take over.

The same reason is of maladministration is being given now. Now it is up to the Dikshidars to prove to the satisfaction of the courts that this charge is wrong.

Earlier they went to the Supreme court and got a favorable order claiming to be a separate denomination.

All the political parties in Tamil Nadu want to make political capital out of this. This is not a religious issue. This is not an issue of Brahmins versus the rest. The religious leaders should keep out of this. Even earlier in the 1950s when this issue was before the court, the Tamil Brahmin leaders did not seem to have supported the Dikshidars.

Talking about money from temples, I have not seen any one raising this issue in the case of the Sabari Malai Ayyappan temple when the whole world knows that the Kerala Budget is totally dependent on the income from Sabari Malai. Talking about looting the temples it is the Government of Kerala which is doing it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 17575) SriP123, It is a long time dream for MK to take over this Temple,since his first wife(sister of C.S.Jayaram) from chidambaram. The Huge collection of money daily,another reson the Dikshters also give the temple for Cinima shooting and lot of complaint against them. But their livehood standstill. For details pl, go thro Tambaram Vision paper the article published to support the dikhthers and true picture what happend.Dt20.04.2008. All things happend only because of Arumugasamy, supported by Veduthali sruthaigal and communists for vote bank.If the Chennai High court having guts give same vertict to the Take over of Adi Parasakthi Temple accupied at GST Road and encrochments at HighWays Dept lands. The Temple Run by a Telugu man self style Adkalar belong to Naidu community.

It is true that Arumgaswamy was supported by the political parties. But that came

much later. He wanted to be a Othuvar. He was prevented from reciting the Thevaram from a particular place. Initially no one bothered. later some political parties supported him. He bacame a pawn in their hands.

Please do not use this forum for criticizing other religious leaders. Bangaru Adigalar is considered a Siddha. But for him the Dravida Kazhakam would have become very popular in the districts. He has retained these people in Hinduism and thus done a yeomen service to Hinduism. His temple was constructed by money collected by him. Chidambaram temple was there even before the Dikshidars were even heard of.

[email protected] 02-07-2009 12:30 PM

Sri Nachji., This issue was not mal practise, whtheir to allow singing Davaram in Kanagasabai in front of the Main diety or not. But due to divisions between Dikshiders,and some one wanted to take over as chief peresit etc., all put together and went court, now again DMK men will enter in admin and every thing will go wrong. There chief will say no God, but udanbrafugal wand money to spent with out anywork, now the ywill started to extrcted from the trading and other busines peoples money for every festivel.Also they will put Digt Banners etc in praice of their leader about this issue. Let that Lord SIVA should Come to their resque.

s007bala 02-07-2009 06:47 PM

I think just like how there Vatican,a seperate country for Christians,we should have a sepearte country for Hindus.Maybe 'Sanatican' and have an organised religious order.Of course its easier said than done,as i see,we are one hell of dis-organised organised religion.Brahmins especially the Jathi Brahmins,are being targetted by Kazhagams.There is unwritten rule in TN,to capture Paapathi to either marry them or keep them as Wappatti!!The Kazhagam dingbats do not realise,only if Paappan is there,then you have Paapathi.I tell you,seroiusly,Axe Brand Party dedicated to LOrd Parashu-Raman,should be made as Brahmin Party world wide,with brahmins and those hindus,who will help our cause,should be started.....plz think over this...unity is the utmost of requirement...

sb

Seshadri Subramaniam 02-07-2009 07:20 PM

sb, there is lukewarm response to the unity thing... as far as brahmns go... probably, we have to implement it successfully, for the rest of the community to realize it and join voluntarily.

Illena vaadham, prathivaadham panni sandai pudichundu irukku vendiyadhu thaan...

Regards

s007bala 02-07-2009 08:13 PM

S S,ya....united we stand divided we fall.That is why Tamil Brahmins are falling and not a force to recknon with.Basically,i researched and figured out why this disunited feeling crops up.Becoz by our very nature,in our genetic orientation,we are imbibed with a consciousness from past birth lives,a sense of freedom.....which does not want to be cowed down....a rebel without a cause!

But what is happening in TN via Kazhagams is,sooner or later

Islam,Christians,Sikhs,Jains,.....etc places of worship will be taken over by Govt.They are setting a precedent to follow in the future or a total anarchy and chaos will follow soon.Maybe after the death of Shri MuKa.But i am 120% sure,and i predict that in the future,this Govt meddling in religious affairs like Temple Administration,will prove to be a deadly lethal combinations,which will tear the fabric of TN,sooner than later.Unless,wiseness crops in.

sb

Krishnakumar 02-08-2009 02:36 PM

It is unfortunate that the temples are managed by people who doesn't believe in religion. It can be managed by the religious leaders of the particular locality who are God fearing and sensitive to swallowing temple properties. Inspite of having huge wealth, it is pathetic to see the condition of the temples. First of all we should not allow any body who is not interested in religion to manage or interfere in any of its activities. It is purely upto the devotees to manage and decide. Monarchy was better where we had only one king compared to several emperors existing now (thadi eduthavan thandavarayan). We need a huge movement to stop all these atrocities on attacking the religious leaders, swindling the temple properties and tortures against brahmin community. Deivam nindru kollum.

s007bala 02-08-2009 06:36 PM

The idea of building new temples in every locality,is also a cause.The money & power,that get enmeshed in popular temples,makes political leaders tempted to handle the coffers for other welfare schemes.However,these politicians,first take care of themselves and their family and friends first and then only the common people.As usual people trust these political leaders,who have now firmly ensconsed themselves over the years,and have a huge following.Caste exists in India.In TN,suppressing brahmins and coming up in life based on this tactic has yielded results to people like Anna Durai,MGR,MUKA,JJ,.......etc.They continue to flog brahmins so that other caste community votes are harnessed.This is prophesied.Brahmins will start behaving like non-brahmins.People with adharma values will hold power.But from 2000 - 2480 ,the righteous rule will prevail in bhu-loka.India will shine too.

sb

[email protected] 02-09-2009 10:32 AM

This is in reply to earlier reply, A Siddher means he never teaches Unique methods of Pooja and rituals, Siddhers never worshiped a particular God, a particular cast and community, Their teaching based upon what they seen with in them and to express to the mankind's benifits. Siddhers were against URUVA VZIPADU,Hommams, etc., our tamilsiddhers the true tourchbearers to the HINDUisam. Let us follow their teachings under a True GURU. s.r.k.

s007bala 02-09-2009 05:00 PM

Sage Agastyar was a Tamil Siddhar.

sb

s007bala 02-10-2009 05:32 AM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 17698) This is in reply to earlier reply, A Siddher means he never teaches Unique methods of Pooja and rituals, Siddhers never worshiped a particular God, a particular cast and community, Their teaching based upon what they seen with in them and to express to the mankind's benifits. Siddhers were against URUVA VZIPADU,Hommams, etc., our tamilsiddhers the true tourchbearers to the HINDUisam. Let us follow their teachings under a True GURU. s.r.k.

srk

"Jnana is given neither from outside nor from another person. It can be realised by each and everyone in his own Heart. The jnana Guru of everyone is only the Supreme Self that is

always revealing its own truth in every Heart through the being-conciousness 'I am, I am.' The granting of true knowledge by him is initiation into jnana. The grace of the Guru is only that Self-awareness that is one's own true nature. It is the inner conciousness by which he is

unceasingly revealing his existence. This divine upadesa is always going on naturally in everyone."

-Sri Ramana Maharshi

ravivararo 02-17-2009 02:40 PM

Now Lord Siva Perform Ananda Thandavam for the High court Order. it is victory to Tamil (!) and Tamilians(!!). in the order the court mentioned that

75. Acts of mismanagement:-Learned Senior Counsel for the Petitioner submitted that the order of the Commissioner dated 31.7.1987 appointing Executive Officer and the confirmation order of the Government dated 09.05.2006 are based on extraneous or irrelevant considerations. It was mainly argued that by appointment of Executive Officer for better management, Commissioner has deviated from the direction of the High Court in W.P.No.5638/1982 and that there is paradigm shift in the order which would vitiate the impugned order of appointment of Executive Officer.

76. Of course in the order in W.P.No.5638/1982, it was directed to treat the order dated 20.7.1982 as show cause notice with a further direction to afford opportunity to both parties. After affording opportunity to both parties, Commissioner has passed the order dated 31.07.1987 pointing many acts of mismanagement as indicated in the show cause notice dated 20.7.1982. To mention a few:-No proper maintenance of accounts for offerings to the temple and donations collected. Missing / loss of number of gold jewels and other valuable items.Unaccounted jewels / gold ingot kept by Podhu Dikshidars. When called for explanation as to unaccounted jewels, Writ Petitioner claimed that they are not the temple jewels and therefore, there was no necessity to account for those jewels.Enquiry revealed that many gold jewels were melted and gold ingots were made.

77. As pointed by the learned Addl. Advocate General that the charges contained in the show cause notice definitely attract action under Sec.45 of the Act. The show cause notice indicates several grave irregularities like (i) non-accounting of gold ingots and gold coins worth Rs.2.2 lakhs kept in the Karuvoolam and detected by the Asst. Commissioner, Cuddalore in the presence of RDO, Chidambaram and District Superintendent of Police; (ii) there was also loss of 860 grams of gold in melting the old jewels; (iii) non-accounting of gold Kanikkai articles received as Kanikkai to the temple.

those Dixits have not accounted the properties of Sivan Sothu (sivan Sothu Kula Nasam)

The claim of religious denomination of Podhu Dixits is without any base and ground, as per the SC's observation that State of Madras and Another [(1981) 1 SCC 445] referring to the very provisions of the Act has held that so far as Tamil Nadu is concerned there is initial presumption that a temple is a public one, it being up to the party, who claims that it is a private temple, to establish that fact affirmatively. Of course, this initial presumption must be rebutted by clinching testimony in order to establish that a temple is a private temple. In the same judgment the very situation of temple on Government property was also taken as a piece of evidence in support of a public temple. In the case on hand, as already stated above, there was neither pleading nor clinching evidence as to who founded the temple and as to how the temple belonged to the appellants. It is also on record that the temple was constructed on paramokh land. Under the circumstances, it is clear that the appellants have failed to establish that the denomination of Rajus constructed the temple. Thus, when both the courts below concurrently erred in recording a finding with no evidence to support that the suit temple belonged to religious denomination of Rajus and not a public temple, the High Court was right in upsetting such finding. In our view the appellants have miserably failed to rebut the initial presumption that it is a public temple. Hence we agree with the High Court in recording a finding that the suit temple is a public temple as in the verdictM.S.V. RAJA & ANR V. SEENI THEVAR & ORS [2001] RD-SC 388 (14 August 2001.

it is further held by SC that The management of the temple is a secular act. The temple authority may also control the activities of various servants of the temple. The disciplinary power over the servants of the temple, including the priests, may be given to the Temple Committee appointed by the state. The Temple Committee can decide the guantum and manner of payment of remuneration to the servants. Merely because a system of payment is prevalent for a number of years, is no ground for holding that such system must continue for all times. The payment of remuneration to the temple servants was not a religious act but was of purely secular nature inSTATE OF ORISSA AND SRI JAGANNATH TEMPLE PURI MANAGEMENTCOM V. CHINTAMANI KHUNTIA & ORS [1997] INSC 740 (17 September 1997)http://www.commonlii.org/in/cases/INSC/1997/740.html).

it is clearly mentioned by Supreme court that It is settled position in law, having regard to the various decisions of this Court that the words "religious denomination" take their colour from the word `religion'. The expression "religious denomination" must satisfy three requirements – (1) it must be collection of individuals who have a system of belief or doctrine which they regard as conducive to their spiritual well-being, i.e., a common faith; (2) a common organisation; and (3) designation of a distinctive name. It necessarily follows that the common faith of the community should be based on religion and in that they should have common religious tenets and the basic cord which connects them, should be religion and not merely considerations of caste or community or societal status. (NALLOR MARTHANDAM VELLALAR & ORS V. THE COMMISSIONER, HINDU RELIGIONS AND CHARITABLE ENDOWMENT [2003] INSC 328 (30 July 2003) http://www.commonlii.org//cgi-bin/di...%20of%20temple)

Hence even in the Supreme Court, Tamil and Tamilian will win and defend the false case of those Dixits. From the Constitution of India, Supreme Court till Lord Siva are in the Tamil and Tamilian's Favour.

************************************************** *****

Quote:

http://www.commonlii.org//cgi-bin/disp.pl/in/cases/INSC/2003/328.html?query=administration%20of%20temple

http://www.commonlii.org/in/cases/INSC/1997/740.html

Originally Posted by s007bala (Post 17555) Dr.Swamy to file PIL against Tamilnadu DMK Govt’s take over of Chidambaram Temple

By janamejayan February 4, 2009.Statement of Dr. Subramanian Swamy,President of the Janata Party.I have decided in the public interest in the Appeal to be filed in the Madras High Court against the Single Judge order of February 2, 2009 directing the Tamil Nadu Government to take over the management of the 1200 Nataraja temple in Chidambaram.This Order has to be challenged in the larger national and public interest of opposing State control of Hindu religious institutions. Reasonable regulation on governance of these temples and such institutions is welcome, but State take-over is abhorrent to the concept of genuine and enlightened secularism, and moreover is discriminatory since mosques and churches are completely exempt by the Government from any scrutiny or regulation.( SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY )

s007bala 02-21-2009 04:06 PM

The only thing that i foresee is ,LOrd Siva destroying TN's Kazhagams,as the evil asuras are dying.Soon it will be a reality,Na Ma Si Va Ya.

sb


Sivan Sothu Kula Nasam (those who mismanage the Lord siva's properties).:rofl:

s007bala 02-21-2009 04:33 PM

I wonder what Kazhagams have to say about origin of Lord Siva with his residence in Kailasham aka Himalayan Mountain Range in bhu-loka?Maybe according to Kazhagams Lord Siva is a 'aryan'.Technically in tamizh 'ariyan' means rare one.

sb


Dravidian God Shiva was offended by Aryans as god of Phallus (shishna Deva). Dravidian were called as s worshipper of Shishna Deva. the said Dravidian God Siva (brahma, Perumal too) was not at all mentioned by any of the Vedas. He is not an aryan God.


PETITIONER:

SRI KANYAKA PARAMESWARI ANNA SATRAM COMMITTEE & ORS. ETC.

Vs.

RESPONDENT: THE COMMISSIONER, H.R.C. & E. & ORS. ETC.

BENCH: K. RAMASWAMY, G.B. PATTANAIK

ACT:

HEADNOTE:

JUDGMENT: WITH CIVIL APPEAL NOS. 8535/94 AND 1341/89 AND CIVIL APPEAL NO. 2718 OF 1997 [Arising out of SLP (C) No. 8437/97 (CC-1840/89) O R D E R CA NOS.1340/86, 8535/94 & CA NO.2718/97 [Arising out of SLP (C) No. 8437/97 (CC-1840/89) Delay condoned and leave granted in the special leave petitions, Application for intervention is dismissed. The controversy raised in this appeal is covered by the judgment of this Court in Sri Adi Visheshwara of Kashi Vishwanath Temple, Varanasi & Ors. Vs. The State of U.P. & Ors. [(1997) 3 SCALE 1) In the present case, the appellants Satram Committee claimed the status of as a denominational temple under Article 26 (d) of the constitution. The High Court has held that they have the denominational status, but, nonetheless, it was negatived on the ground that the Managing Committee would be appointed with non-official and official members under the A.P Charitable and Religious Institutions Endowment Act. Thus, the appellants claimed the status of a

denominational one and the Government has questioned the later direction. Admittedly, the Arya Vysya Community is having as many as 102 gotras. In other words, they are representing a large segment of Hindus worshipping Goddess Matha Kanyakaparameswari. In the above cited case, the claim was that the Hindus who worship God Shiva constitute a denominational section entitled to the benefit of Articles 26(b) and 26(d) of the Constitution. A Bench of three Judges, to which both of us were members, had considered the matter in detail and held that Hindu Worshippers of God Shiva are not a denominational section and, therefore, they are not entitled to the benefit of Articles 26 (b) and 26 (d) of the Constitution for management of the Temples. Following the above ratio, we hold that the Hindu sections of the Arya vysya Community who worship Goddess Matha Kanyakaparameswari are not denominational section for the purpose of Articles 26(b) and 26(d) of the Constitution. As a consequence, it is an institution Covered by the provisions of the Endowments Act. Accordingly, they are entitled to be administered in the light of the law laid down by this court in Pannalal Bansilal Patti & Ors. Vs. State of A.P. [(1996) 2 SCC 498].

s007bala 02-23-2009 09:35 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18025) Dravidian God Shiva was offended by Aryans as god of Phallus (shishna Deva). Dravidian were called as s worshipper of Shishna Deva. the said Dravidian God Siva (brahma, Perumal too) was not at all mentioned by any of the Vedas. He is not an aryan God.

Dravidian,Aryan are all tools to divide people.Now our de facto kings namely Kazhagam rulers are deploying such tactics.As usual people are fools to succumb otherwise they will be put into hardship in many ways.

As for Phallus & Vagina depiction of Lingam & Yoni,is definitely one interpretation,of the combined forces of nature to progress.I believe that,becoz of tooo much of bhakthi,people stopped having sexual relationship,which extended to other species as well.So,in a subtle doctrination of Kama Deva,such a spectacular lingam-yoni was created in bhu-loka by gods.

sb

trramesh 02-25-2009 07:50 AM

Let us know the FACTS of Chidambaram Temple Issue Let us first know the facts and truth pertaining to the Chidambaram Temple Issue:

1. This temple is administered by Chidambaram Dhiksitars who are a denomination under Article 26 of the Indian Constitution. Which means Government cannot and SHOULD NOT interfere in their administration.

2. That they are a separate Denomination " more than Srivalli Brahmins" has been established by the Hon'ble Madras High Court in its judgement in 1952. The then Madras Government appealed against this judgement in the Supreme Court but subsequently withdrew the appeal. So the Madras High Court judgement had attained finality. It is now not open to Courts to relook into the Denomination matter.

The Chidambaram Natarajar Temple is a denominated temple and its "Denomination" status had been originally conferred by the Court of Law during the British Period in the year 1891 and the same had been confirmed by the Supreme Court of India in the year 1958, asserting that, the micro-minority community of Dikshidars only have the traditional rights over the administration, customs and rituals of the Temple and that the HR & CE department doesn't have the legal sanction to interfere in the affairs of this Temple.

3. The only landed properties of the temple amounting 916 acres were handed over to the Government who appointed a special Tashildar to look after the administration related to the lands and pay the proceeds from the land to the temple administration for their expenses. Only a paltry amount is paid by the Tahsildar every month to cover part of the electricity expenses of this huge temple.

4. The temple functions with a wonderful system of Kattalais. Which means the daily requirements like Pooja materials, including milk, ghee, honey, flowers, rice etc are supplied by the Kattakai people and the materials are used up for the day. Dhikshitars have no control over these Kattalais and they are not involved in the procurement and payment done by Kattalai people. No accounts are kept by Dhikshitars because no accounts are involved with Dhikshitars.

5. Do the Oduvars sing from the Kanakasabhai? Why should only Brahmins sing from the Kanakasabhai?

This is a mischievous propaganda of the atheists and the government headed by a self-proclaimed, yellow-shawl-wearing-atheist, Karunanidhi. Kanakasabhai is the Arthamandapam in Chidambaram Mandir. Kanakasabhai houses the Spatika Lingam of Chandramouleeswara along with Nandi Bhagawan and Rathna Sabhapathi. This place is revered with the same sanctity reserved normally for the Garbha Griha. That only Brahmins are permitted to sing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai or that Non-Brahmins are prohibited from singing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai is a deliberate lie to show the Dikshitars in poor light. The fact is that NOBODY, NOT BRAHMINS, NOT NON- BRAHMINS are permitted to sing Thevaram or for that matter any Slokas and in any language in the Kanakasabhai. The rights rest only with the Dikshitars to offer the traditional Pujas to the Bhagawan, including singing of the Thevaram from Kanakasabhai.

6. Does the HR&CE have the right to interfere?

The HR&CE has no right to interfere in the affairs of the Chidambaram Mandir.

Even in Mandirs under its control, the HR&CE has NO right to interfere in the Religious affairs, Pujas, Puja Vidhanas as per the Aagamic Shastras rendered by the priests of the respective Mandirs. HR&CE is only the administrator of the Mandir and have no right whatsoever to determine or alter the religious functions of the Mandir under their control.

However, to its credit, the HR&CE, has appropriated the right to loot Hindu Mandirs and its properties.

7. Chidambaram is not a votive shrine. That is it is not a prarthana sthala. The Dhikshitars have always maintained this and the purpose of a devotee's visit to

Chidambaram Temple should be elevate himself from worldly affairs by the Grace of Nataraja. So a Hundi is never kept in Chidambaram temple. This is part of the religious practice and the HR & CE department has grossly violated even the latest Single Judge order by interfering in religious matter.

8. The HR & CE department has announced that it would spend Rs.5 crores in constructing Parks, toilets, commercial complex, etc. This announcement if allowed to be carried out will cause irreparable damage to the temple. It would only serve the corrupt motives of politicians and ruin the sanctity of the holiest of Siva temples. The HR&CE has not even left constructing a pit ( thotti) to collect the coconut offerings before Pillayar temple. Only then can they give 'contract' to collect the broken coconuts.

9. As stated by Dr.Subramanian Swamy at Chidambaram Temple the Single Judge's judgement is deficient and hence those who profess to have the Hindu faith should challenge this. It is also important to note that Dr.Swamy was attacked a hooligan lawyers inside the court led by an active Christian.We should also remember that people behind Arumugaswamy the self proclaimed Odhuvar were and are Christians whose goal is undermine the importance of Solid Hindu Institutions like Chidambaram Temple and Kanchi Mutt.

10. It is the Divine declaration of Siva that he is the servitor of those who serve the Tillai Brahmins. Those who do not believe in this cannot claim themselves to be either Saivaites or Vedic Brahmins.

trramesh 02-25-2009 07:54 AM

Reply to Ravirao Pls note that none of the mismanagement allegations by HR & CE were proved.

Let us first know the facts and truth pertaining to the Chidambaram Temple Issue:








6. Does the HR&CE have the right to interfere?

The HR&CE has no right to interfere in the affairs of the Chidambaram Mandir.

Even in Mandirs under its control, the HR&CE has NO right to interfere in the Religious affairs, Pujas, Puja Vidhanas as per the Aagamic Shastras rendered by the priests of the respective Mandirs. HR&CE is only the administrator of the Mandir and have no right whatsoever to determine or alter the religious functions of the Mandir under their control.

However, to its credit, the HR&CE, has appropriated the right to loot Hindu Mandirs and its properties.

7. Chidambaram is not a votive shrine. That is it is not a prarthana sthala. The Dhikshitars have always maintained this and the purpose of a devotee's visit to Chidambaram Temple should be elevate himself from worldly affairs by the Grace of Nataraja. So a Hundi is never kept in Chidambaram temple. This is part of the religious practice and the HR & CE department has grossly violated even the latest Single Judge order by interfering in religious matter.





Thank you Ravivarao and TR Ramesh for providing excellent information regarding the facts of the case.

The question seems to be

1. Whether the Dikshidars can continue to claim their denominational status. The government can always appeal and get a reversal. This is a larger question.

2. The present question is whether the Dikshidars can prove to the satisfaction of the court that the allegation of mismanagement is wrong.

To consider this as an attack on Hinduism is wrong. References to Churches and Mosques are irrelevant. When the holiest of the Hindu Shrines, Lord Viswanath temple in Kasi was taken over by the government no one in Tamil Nadu even knew about it. Again no one in Tamil Nadu bothered when the Panduranga (Vittala) temple in Pandharpur was taken over by the Maharashtra government.

In the case of the takeover of the Lord Viswanath and Panduranga temple it was not made out to be an attack on Hinduism though BJP was/is strong in both these states.

Even when the Dikshidars had fought the cases earlier there was no feeling of an attack on Hinduism. And not much of support from the Tamil Brahmin community. There were no kazhakams in those days.

Our sympathies are with the Dikshidar community. We hope they can prove that there was no mismanagement.

Correct me if I am wrong. I did understand that the religious part of the administration is still with the Dikshidars.

trramesh 02-25-2009 12:47 PM

Reply to Nachinaarkiniyan 1. The denomination status for Chidambaram Dhikshitars have been confirmed by earlier judgements and legally it is not subject to review now.

2. The allegations were made by HR&CE against the Dhikshitars and it is the onus of the HR& CE to prove its allegations. Dhikshitars who have maintained a perfect record of accounts and valuables were always willing to prove that they had perfect records and accounts. In fact, there is a periodical inspection of the jewelry by the HR& CE department and certificates are obtained after each inspection.

3. Christian, atheist and non-Hindu people rallying behind Arumuga Swamy and making false allegations against the Dhikshitars and a senior lawyer appearing for Arumuga Swamy who has only a unjustifiable pension of Rs.3000 p.m. from the atheist TN Government prima facie establishes non-Hindu and anti-Hindu forces' roles in Chidambaram Temple issue.

4. Religious part of Chidamblram Temple is inseparably combined with the administration of the temple. HR & CE dept - has no right or authority to interfere - not only in Chidambaram temple - but also in other temples as to worship and worship related matters. For example, it is not open to HR&CE to give directions as to which date a Kumbabishekam can be performed or in which language Archana can be performed. Keeping a Hundi or constructing commercial complexes or toilets is a blatant violation of religious practices in Chidambaram.


Reply to Mr.Ramesh For the question 1. The denomination status for Chidambaram Dhikshitars have been confirmed by earlier judgements and legally it is not subject to review now.

Though the said judgment is confirmed by lower courts, it is against the present SC views. it is non est factum in the eye of law. At any point of Time the same can be questioned and invalidated.

For the question no 2, No proof or evidence was produced before the High court by those Dixits stating that the accounts were beyond doubt.

For question no.4 Keeping a Hundi or constructing commercial complexes or toilets is a blatant violation of religious practices in Chidambaram are not religious act and even not specified in Vedas/agamas.

The Temple was built by Kothanars, Sithals, silpi/sirpi who were all not aryans but ? and with the financial aids of Kings. no proof is available with dixits that the temple was built by themselves.

trramesh 03-14-2009 01:56 PM

Reply to Ravirao 1. It is good to see you quote legal terms though incorrectly. 'Non est factum' pertains to agreements. This is a constitutional matter which cannot be overturned by a single judge of High Court.

2. My earlier point 2. holds good. It is the onus of the accuser to prove that the accounts are not well maintained. It is well known that HR & CE has not been able to prove a single allegation.

3. You have chosen not to reply to my third point. Maybe you are one of the atheist and anti-Hindu persons who are against this holy temple and its traditions.4. Hundi is a modern practice and as you yourself have put it, there is no mention of it in the vedas and agamas. That is why Dhikshitars do not want a hundi which is against traditions.

5. If you get a house constructed you do not give the management of the house to sithals and kothanars. Perhaps you do. The kothanars or sithals who built the Parliament or Secretariat are / were not ruling this country. Strange indeed is your logic. There is also no proof that Kings or Chiefs established this temple. They might have only expanded it and did other charities. That does not make them the administrators of the temple. Even Rajaraja Chola, when he got to know that the Tevaram song palmleafs were in a particular chamber in the Chidambaram Temple, he could only request the Dikshitars and did not order them.

6. If you hate brahmins, you need not show it in this website.


Wonderful background info and the legal status quo of the issue by trramesh... thanks


Reply to ramesh Let us first know the facts and truth pertaining to the Chidambaram Temple Issue:


The Supreme court has held in M.S.V. RAJA & ANR V. SEENI THEVAR & ORS [2001] RD-SC 388 (14 August 2001 that

State of Madras and Another [(1981) 1 SCC 445] referring to the very provisions of the Act has held that so far as Tamil Nadu is concerned there is initial presumption that a temple is a public one, it being up to the party, who claims that it is a private temple, to establish that fact affirmatively. Of course, this initial presumption must be rebutted by clinching testimony in order to establish that a temple is a private temple. In the same judgment the very situation of temple on Government property was also taken as a piece of evidence in support of a public temple. In the case on hand, as already stated above, there was neither pleading nor clinching evidence as to who founded the temple and as to how the temple belonged to the appellants. It is also on record that the temple was constructed on paramokh land. Under the circumstances, it is clear that the appellants have failed to establish that the denomination of Rajus constructed the temple. Thus, when both the courts below concurrently erred in recording a finding with no evidence to support that the suit temple belonged to religious denomination of Rajus and not a public temple, the High Court was right in upsetting such finding. In our view the appellants have miserably failed to rebut the initial presumption that it is a public temple. Hence we agree with the High Court in recording a finding that the suit temple is a public temple as in the verdict.


The honourable Supreme court however can relook the denomination capacity.


The same court has held that

It is settled position in law, having regard to the various decisions of this Court that the words "religious denomination" take their colour from the word `religion'. The expression "religious denomination" must satisfy three requirements – (1) it must be collection of individuals who have a system of belief or doctrine which they regard as conducive to their spiritual well-being, i.e., a common faith; (2) a common organisation; and (3) designation of a distinctive name. It necessarily follows that the common faith of the community should be based on

religion and in that they should have common religious tenets and the basic cord which connects them, should be religion and not merely considerations of caste or community or societal status. (NALLOR MARTHANDAM VELLALAR & ORS V. THE COMMISSIONER, HINDU RELIGIONS AND CHARITABLE ENDOWMENT [2003] INSC 328 (30 July 2003) http://www.commonlii.org//cgi-bin/di...%20of%20temple)

The management of the temple is a secular act. The temple authority may also control the activities of various servants of the temple. The disciplinary power over the servants of the temple, including the priests, may be given to the Temple Committee appointed by the state. The Temple Committee can decide the guantum and manner of payment of remuneration to the servants. Merely because a system of payment is prevalent for a number of years, is no ground for holding that such system must continue for all times. The payment of remuneration to the temple servants was not a religious act but was of purely secular nature inSTATE OF ORISSA AND SRI JAGANNATH TEMPLE PURI MANAGEMENTCOM V. CHINTAMANI KHUNTIA & ORS [1997] INSC 740 (17 September 1997)http://www.commonlii.org/in/cases/INSC/1997/740.html).


The same had to be appealed before the HR & CE and TN Government.


The question is not about the Kattalai but the properties of our Lord Sivan who is mentioned in the Indus scripts and not in Vedas.





http://www.commonlii.org//cgi-bin/di...%20of%20temple

That only Brahmins are permitted to sing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai or that Non-Brahmins are prohibited from singing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai is a deliberate lie to show the Dikshitars in poor light. Who has permit them to do so. This is an Untouchability not only towards people but also language Tamil which was evolved from Lord Sivans Damarukam. Offence against Lord Siva.

The story of nandanAr: NandanAr was a great Harijan (so-called untouchable) devotee of the Lord of Chidambaram. The rigid caste-ridden norms of those times precluded him from entering temples though he earnestly longed to do so and was all the time praying to the Lord to give him darSan. The Lord performed a miracle for him at Tiruppungur where the nandi image which was obstructing his view from beyond the gate (=tower, gopuram) of the temple was asked to move aside by the Lord and it did so! Even today we can see the nandi away from its usual central position. Nandanar kept talking about going to Chidambaram and having a darSan of Lord naTarAja to whom he had a consuming passion. His landlord under whom he was serving almost like a slave imposed impossible conditions for him to fulfill before he would be allowed to make the trip to Chidambaram. By God's Grace these conditions were miraculously fulfilled. When Nandanar finally arrived in Chidambaram the Dikshidars (brahmin scholar-priests) of the temple would not allow him to enter the temple. The Lord naTarAja himself appeared in their dreams and commanded them to allow him. Next day Nandanar had the bath in the holy tank and was taken in a procession to the sanctorum. But once he entered it he disappeared into space and attained beatitude. Nandanar has been included as one of the 63 nAyanmarswho are worshipped in all Siva temples as the most blessed devotees of the Lord. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/4402.html)

King Rajaraja I (985 - 1013 C.E.), the most illustrious member of the Chola line of kings had in his early years been enraptured by the chantings of the Saiva hymns of the four grandmasters. The more he listened the more his ardour grew to hear more of them. But to his dismay he heard that they were all lost, except those few that lingered on in the memories of the ritual singers in the temples. The fact was that these hymns had been taken down on palm leaves as and when they were composed. But during a period of political stress they were got together for safety and deposited in one of the rooms of the Chidambaram temple. All memories of this were lost. Rajaraja hearing of the miraculous powers of a young temple priest of the land, turned to him for help. The King was told by the priest that the collections were in a room at the back of the Golden Hall of Nataraja in the Chidambaram temple. Rajaraja's delight knew no bounds. He applied to the Dikshidars, the priests and managers of the Chidambaram temple. Their answer was disquieting because they required the very grandmasters who set their seals on the rooms to come and open it. The chola king outwitted them by bringing to that very door, with great festivities, golden icons of the four grandmasters. The door was forthwith opened. But to their disappointment they found nothing but anthills over the heap of palm-leaves. Termites had eaten away a good portion of the palm leaves. Rajaraja fell into despair but was soon comforted by a divine voice that announced that all was not lost and those that were needed for the time had been saved. With a sigh of relief, the King got oil poured over the heap of ruins and leaf after leaf as were found whole, picked and treasured and copied down. What was thus recovered was probably 384 out of a supposed 10000 hymns of Sambandar, 312 out of 49000 of Appar, 100 out of 37000 of Sundarar. These are the Tevaram hymns as they are known now. Rajaraja thus made a great contribution to the growth of Tamil literature. From that time onwards these hymns are being sung in all Siva temples of Tamil origin by professionals trained for this purpose under benefactions made by successive generations of kings and philanthropists. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/WOVpage11.html)These then Dixits mismanaged the Tevaram at that time by kepting this Tevaram in the dumpyard as rubbish. Only because of King Rajaraja, it was protected.

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/WOVpage11.html

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/4402.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/2952/gohitvip/51.html

6. Does the HR&CE have the right to interfere? The HR&CE has no right to interfere in the affairs of the Chidambaram Mandir. Even in Mandirs under its control, the HR&CE has NO right to interfere in the Religious affairs, Pujas, Puja Vidhanas as per the Aagamic Shastras rendered by the priests of the respective Mandirs. HR&CE is only the administrator of the Mandir and have no right whatsoever to determine or alter the religious functions of the Mandir under their control. However, to its credit, the HR&CE, has appropriated the right to loot Hindu Mandirs and its properties.

Who has prevented them to recite manthras in mindiram. It is not the religious activities but the property management that was taken over by the Government.

It is stated in the STATE OF ORISSA AND SRI JAGANNATH TEMPLE PURI MANAGEMENTCOM V. CHINTAMANI KHUNTIA & ORS [1997] INSC 740 (17 September 1997)http://www.commonlii.org/in/cases/INSC/1997/740.html), that The management of the temple is a secular act. The temple authority may also control the activities of various servants of the temple. The disciplinary power over the servants of the temple, including the priests, may be given to the Temple Committee appointed by the state. The Temple Committee can decide the guantum and manner of payment of remuneration to the servants. Merely because a system of payment is prevalent for a number of years, is no ground for holding that such system must continue for all times. The payment of remuneration to the temple servants was not a religious act but was of purely secular nature


reply to Mr.Ramesh 7. Chidambaram is not a votive shrine. That is it is not a prarthana sthala. The Dhikshitars have always maintained this and the purpose of a devotee's visit to Chidambaram Temple should be elevate himself from worldly affairs by the Grace of Nataraja. So a Hundi is never kept in Chidambaram temple. This is part of the religious practice and the HR & CE department has grossly violated even the latest Single Judge order by interfering in religious matter.

God is everywhere and anywhere prarthana can be made and the place is prarthana sthalam. There is no such restriction. Even in deathbed, it is a prarthana sthala where people usually call lord Siva as sankara sankara.


The money is belongs to Government and it is public and not private money. It is utilised for the devoties' benefit. Sidharu Kayai yar Swaha Seyya Vendum?

9. As stated by Dr.Subramanian Swamy at Chidambaram Temple the Single Judge's judgement is deficient and hence those who profess to have the Hindu faith should challenge this. It is also important to note that Dr.Swamy was attacked a hooligan lawyers inside the court led by an active Christian.We should also remember that people behind Arumugaswamy the self proclaimed Odhuvar were and are


Christians whose goal is undermine the importance of Solid Hindu Institutions like Chidambaram Temple and Kanchi Mutt.

Most of the Tamil people who are Hindus are welcoming this and Lord Siva will perform Ananda Thandava for this verdict as it is victory for Tamil and Tamilian and all Hindus.


Even for the sake of argument that the above allegation is right, Lord Siva has given mukti to Nandanar who is sudra and who has refused to /has not serve brahmins. The story of nandanAr: NandanAr was a great Harijan (so-called untouchable) devotee of the Lord of Chidambaram. The rigid caste-ridden norms of those times precluded him from entering temples though he earnestly longed to do so and was all the time praying to the Lord to give him darSan. The Lord performed a miracle for him at Tiruppungur where the nandi image which was obstructing his view from beyond the gate (=tower, gopuram) of the temple was asked to move aside by the Lord and it did so! Even today we can see the nandi away from its usual central position. Nandanar kept talking about going to Chidambaram and having a darSan of Lord naTarAja to whom he had a consuming passion. His landlord under whom he was serving almost like a slave imposed impossible conditions for him to fulfill before he would be allowed to make the trip to Chidambaram. By God's Grace these conditions were miraculously fulfilled. When Nandanar finally arrived in Chidambaram the Dikshidars (brahmin scholar-priests) of the temple would not allow him to enter the temple. The Lord naTarAja himself appeared in their dreams and commanded them to allow him. Next day Nandanar had the bath in the holy tank and was taken in a procession to the sanctorum. But once he entered it he disappeared into space and attained beatitude. Nandanar has been included as one of the 63 nAyanmarswho are worshipped in all Siva temples as the most blessed devotees of the Lord. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/4402.html)

Lord Siva never said to serve Dixits. It is false story. The meaning of Dwijanma is false theory. It is actually a transliteration of Tamil word Irupirappalargal. In Tamil, the word Iru not only means the numerical 2 but Great, spacious, vast;.

See 1. இருமை� irumai : (page 333)

not listening to others; தா�னா�கவும் அறி�யா�து பி�றிர் அறி�வி�க்கவும் அறி�யா�தா மூடத் தானாம். Colloq.

இருமை�¹ irumai

, n. 1. Greatness, largeness, hugeness, eminence; பெபிருமை�. (பெதா�ல். பெ��ல். 396, உமை�.)

2. Blackness; கருமை�. (சீவிக. 1171.)

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...t&display=utf8

இரு² iru

, adj. < இரு-மை�. 1. Great, spacious, vast; பெபி��யா. ��யா�ரு ஞா�லம் (குறிள், 999). 2. Black; க��யா.

இரு�லர்க் குவிமை$ யுண்கண் (சீவிக. 1171). http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...1:869.tamillex

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:869.tamillex

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3advanced?dbname=tamillex&query=irumai&matchtype=exact&display=utf8

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.tamillex.381853





the meaning of Irupirappalar means those whose birth is great and not the meaning of 2nd time born. Nobody can born twice. The Sanskrit adhimedhavis transliterated the Tamil Word irupirappalargal as Dwi + Janma. Lord Siva said to serve those whose birth is nobile and great and not a particular community.


"Let him [a Brahmin] not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras." (Manu IV. 61).

is this manu rule breached in the State of Uttar Pradesh. Then where why will/could dwell.?


Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18544) "Let him [a Brahmin] not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras." (Manu IV. 61).

is this manu rule breached in the State of Uttar Pradesh. Then where why will/could dwell.?

The other name for "shudra" is "ignorant"... not all jathi brahmins are brahma-gnyanis and not all jathi shudras are ignorants... this has been the case from time immemorial...

The days of Manu are not anymore now... there is a phenomenal change in the lifestyle of all the varnas... even though varna-sankara was prevalent in the times of yore, it is more now... spirituality has given way to ego-gratification and gross materialisation... neither is there a full fledged varna-dharma being followed, even in Bharatham... so, in effect, India itself is a sort of mleccha-desham, but by virtue of its inherent spiritual characteristics, it is still a karmabhoomi... forget UP, MP,TN, Assam etc... these are all divides done for administrative convenience... tomorrow, if public demands, a futher divide of UP may also be done...

The chord of spirituality runs through the entire length and breadth of our country... and hence a brahmin can dwell anywhere within it...

In fact, if a living cannot be eked out, by a brahmin, through teaching the vedas, he may engage in commerce, business and such other trading business that would ensure a livlihood... and he can reside in such a place where such livlihood can be carried out, provided, the country is not a realm which could cause potential damage to his life/faith/practices or beliefs...


@ Ramesh You have chosen not to reply to my third point. Maybe you are one of the atheist and anti-Hindu persons who are against this holy temple and its traditions.

I am Hindu by birth and not Tamilian. i am a slave of Lord Siva.

பிற்றுக பிற்றிற்றி�ன் பிற்றி�மைனா அப்பிற்மைறிப்பிற்றுக பிற்று வி�டற்கு

I am not a dravidian party activist. i am humanist and concerns sometimes for animals too. i Love my Lord Siva, Tamil, equity, judiciary and nothing else. .விலியா�ர்முன் தான்மைனா நி.மைனாக்கதா�ன் தான்னா�ன்பெ�லியா�ர்மே�ல் பெ�ல்லும் இடத்து

Think how you feel before the strong

When to the feeble you do wrong

:fish2:

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Dear Senior , i could not find such a meaning for that word. pls give me a citation for my reference

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.5:1:4954.apte3

शू�द्रः� śūdrḥ शू�द्रः� [शू�च्�- रक्� पृ�षो ˚ च्स्य दः� दः�र्घः�� Uṇ.2.19] A man of the fourth or the last of the four principal tribes of the Hindus;

he is said to have been born from the feet of Puruṣa; पृदः�भ्य�� शू�द्रः अजा�यत Ṛv.1.9.12; or of Brahman; Ms.1.87; and

his principal business was to serve the three higher castes; । एक्मे�व त� शू�द्रःस्य प्रभुः�� क्मे� समे�दिदःशूत� एत�षो�मे�व वर्णा��नां�� ॥ शू�श्रु�षो�मेनांस�यय� Ms.1.9. -Comp. -आर्ता�� the Priyaṅgu plant. -आह्नि�कम् the daily ceremonies or observances of a



















Śūdra. -उदकम् water polluted by the touch of a Śūdra. -क� त्यम्, -धम्�� the duties of a Śūdra. -घ्न, -हन a. 1 killing a

Śūdra. -2 the slayer of a Śūdra; एतदः�व व्रत� क्� त्स्नां� षोण्मे�स�नां� शू�द्रःहा� च्र�त� Ms.11.13. -प्रि�य� an onion. -��ष्य� a man of

any of the three higher castes who has become a servant to a Śūdra. -भू�ह्नियष्ठ a. consisting mostly of Śūdra; यद्रः�ष्ट्रं� शू�द्रःभुः�यियष्ठमे� (विवनांश्यवित) Ms.8.22. -य�जक� one who con- ducts a sacrifice for a Śūdra. -रा�ज्यम् a country of which a

Śūdra is a king; नां शू�द्रःर�ज्य� विनांवस�त� Ms.4.61. -वर्गः�� the Śūdra or servile class. -व�त्तिः!� the occupation of a Śūdra;

व/श्य $ जा0वनां� स्वधमे2र्णा शू�द्रःव�त्त्य�विपृ वत�य�त� Ms.1.98, -- 1564 --

- शा�सनम् 1 dominion of a Śūdra. -2 a written bond of a Śūdra; L. D. B. -3 an edict addressed to Śūdras. -स$स्पशा�� the

touch of a Śūdra; अस्वर्ग्याय�� ह्या�हुवित� स� स्य�च्छू�द्रःस�स्पशू�दूविषोत� Ms.5.14. -स�वनम् serving a Śūdra, being the servant of a Śūdra; Ms.11.69.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict.pl?query=sudra&display=utf8&table=macdone ll

शू�द्रः (p. 317) [ sûdrá ] m. man of the fourth or servile class: -ka,m. N. of a king, the reputed au thor of the Mrikkhakatikâ; N. of a soldier; -gana,m. Sûdra; -ganman,a. descended from a Sûdra; m. Sûdra; -tâ, f., -tva,n. condition of a Sûdra; -dharma,m. duty of a Sûdra; -yâgaka,a. sacrificing for a Sûdra.

शू�द्रः� (p. 317) [ sûdr&asharp; ] f. woman of the fourth caste: -putra, m. son of a Sûdrâ; a&half;artha-yâgaka, a. sacrificing with the money of a Sûdra; â-vedin, a. marrying a Sûdrâ.

Thank you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18545) The other name for "shudra" is "ignorant"... not all jathi brahmins are brahma-gnyanis and not all jathi shudras are ignorants... this has been the case from time immemorial...

The days of Manu are not anymore now... there is a phenomenal change in the lifestyle of all the varnas... even though varna-sankara was prevalent in the times of yore, it is more now... spirituality has given way to ego-gratification and gross materialisation... neither is there a full fledged varna-dharma being followed, even in Bharatham... so, in effect, India itself is a sort of mleccha-desham, but by virtue of its inherent spiritual characteristics, it is still a karmabhoomi... forget UP, MP,TN, Assam etc... these are all divides done for administrative convenience... tomorrow, if public demands, a futher divide of UP may also be done...

The chord of spirituality runs through the entire length and breadth of our country... and hence a brahmin can dwell anywhere within it...

In fact, if a living cannot be eked out, by a brahmin, through teaching the vedas, he may engage in commerce, business and such other trading business that would ensure a livlihood... and he can reside in such a place where such livlihood can be carried out, provided, the country is not a realm which could cause potential damage to his life/faith/practices or beliefs...

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict.pl?page=164&table=macdonell&display=utf8



My replies in blue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18543)

God is everywhere and anywhere prarthana can be made and the place is prarthana sthalam. There is no such restriction. Even in deathbed, it is a prarthana sthala where people usually call lord Siva as sankara sankara.

"Prarthana sthalam" is for people who believe in a certain norm for worshipping... and hence, it has a definite meaning associated ie., a specific place where one worships god... then again, there are those who see god in everone/everything... but again, such persons need not be concerned about temples, for he need not be ruffled by such petty issues...

To trramesh - Is there any reason behind your statement that a votive shrine is not a prarthana sthala??


The money is belongs to Government and it is public and not private money. It is utilised for the devoties' benefit. Sidharu Kayai yar Swaha Seyya Vendum?

Recently, TTD has renovated mel Thirupathi by removing all the commercial establishments there, thus making it a place where one seeks god and not for any other engagements... Thus the money should be used in accordance with the agamic rules... and also for the welfare of those who manage the ritualistic routines...


Most of the Tamil people who are Hindus are welcoming this and Lord Siva will perform Ananda Thandava for this verdict as it is victory for Tamil and Tamilian and all Hindus.

I am surprised that Shiva would do thandavam for a mere rivalry of egos and vendetta done by rabid politicians and anti-hindus... again I doubt that he will discount his hindi speaking or marathi speaking or kannada speaking devotees for the sake of tamil...

Those who protest against the govt's actions are also hindus; therefore it is a fallacy to use the term "all hindus" here

10. It is the Divine declaration of Siva that he is the servitor of those who serve the Tillai Brahmins. Those who do not believe in this cannot claim themselves to

be either Saivaites or Vedic Brahmins.

Even for the sake of argument that the above allegation is right, Lord Siva has given mukti to Nandanar who is sudra and who has refused to /has not serve brahmins. The story of nandanAr: NandanAr was a great Harijan (so-called untouchable) devotee of the Lord of Chidambaram. The rigid caste-ridden norms of those times precluded him from entering temples though he earnestly longed to do so and was all the time praying to the Lord to give him darSan. The Lord performed a miracle for him at Tiruppungur where the nandi image which was obstructing his view from beyond the gate (=tower, gopuram) of the temple was asked to move aside by the Lord and it did so! Even today we can see the nandi away from its usual central position. Nandanar kept talking about going to Chidambaram and having a darSan of Lord naTarAja to whom he had a consuming passion. His landlord under whom he was serving almost like a slave imposed impossible conditions for him to fulfill before he would be allowed to make the trip to Chidambaram. By God's Grace these conditions were miraculously fulfilled. When Nandanar finally arrived in Chidambaram the Dikshidars (brahmin scholar-priests) of the temple would not allow him to enter the temple. The Lord naTarAja himself appeared in their dreams and commanded them to allow him. Next day Nandanar had the bath in the holy tank and was taken in a procession to the sanctorum. But once he entered it he disappeared into space and attained beatitude. Nandanar has been included as one of the 63 nAyanmarswho are worshipped in all Siva temples as the most blessed devotees of the Lord. (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/4402.html)

Lord Siva never said to serve Dixits. It is false story. The meaning of Dwijanma is false theory. It is actually a transliteration of Tamil word Irupirappalargal. In Tamil, the word Iru not only means the numerical 2 but Great, spacious, vast;.

Things do not become false or true just because you say so... Everything did not spring from tamil... so your primary inference itself is wrong...

To the second part - nobody's birth is great... how can that be? It is only through his learning, perseverance, conduct, way of living and zest for the higher truth that one becomes great... the second birth is when he becomes ready to tread the path of highest enlightenment and is initiated for the process...

There are various differing interpretations of "Dwija"...

See 1. இருமை� irumai : (page 333)

not listening to others; தா�னா�கவும் அறி�யா�து பி�றிர் அறி�வி�க்கவும் அறி�யா�தா மூடத் தானாம். Colloq.

இருமை�¹ irumai

, n. 1. Greatness, largeness, hugeness, eminence; பெபிருமை�. (பெதா�ல். பெ��ல். 396,

உமை�.) 2. Blackness; கருமை�. (சீவிக. 1171.)

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...t&display=utf8

இரு² iru

, adj. < இரு-மை�. 1. Great, spacious, vast; பெபி��யா. ��யா�ரு ஞா�லம் (குறிள், 999). 2. Black;

க��யா. இரு�லர்க் குவிமை$ யுண்கண் (சீவிக. 1171).

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3advanced?dbname=tamillex&query=irumai&matchtype=exact&display=utf8

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.1.tamillex.381853





http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...1:869.tamillex

the meaning of Irupirappalar means those whose birth is great and not the meaning of 2nd time born. Nobody can born twice. The Sanskrit adhimedhavis transliterated the Tamil Word irupirappalargal as Dwi + Janma. Lord Siva said to serve those whose birth is nobile and great and not a particular community.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18547) Dear Senior , i could not find such a meaning for that word. pls give me a citation for my reference


शू�द्रः� śūdrḥ शू�द्रः� [शू�च्�- रक्� पृ�षो ˚ च्स्य दः� दः�र्घः�� Uṇ.2.19] A man of the fourth or the last of the four principal tribes of the

Hindus; he is said to have been born from the feet of Puruṣa; पृदः�भ्य�� शू�द्रः अजा�यत Ṛv.1.9.12; or of Brahman;

Ms.1.87; and his principal business was to serve the three higher castes; । एक्मे�व त� शू�द्रःस्य प्रभुः�� क्मे� समे�दिदःशूत� ॥ एत�षो�मे�व वर्णा��नां�� शू�श्रु�षो�मेनांस�यय� Ms.1.9. -Comp. -आर्ता�� the Priyaṅgu plant. -आह्नि�कम् the daily ceremonies

or observances of a Śūdra. -उदकम् water polluted by the touch of a Śūdra. -क� त्यम्, -धम्�� the duties of a Śūdra.

घ्न, -हन a. 1 killing a Śūdra. -2 the slayer of a Śūdra; एतदः�व व्रत� क्� त्स्नां� षोण्मे�स�नां� शू�द्रःहा� च्र�त� Ms.11.13. -प्रि�य� an onion. -��ष्य� a man of any of the three higher castes who has become a servant to a Śūdra. -भू�ह्नियष्ठ a.

consisting mostly of Śūdra; यद्रः�ष्ट्रं� शू�द्रःभुः�यियष्ठमे� (विवनांश्यवित) Ms.8.22. -य�जक� one who con- ducts a sacrifice for a

Śūdra. -रा�ज्यम् a country of which a Śūdra is a king; नां शू�द्रःर�ज्य� विनांवस�त� Ms.4.61. -वर्गः�� the Śūdra or servile

class. -व�त्तिः!� the occupation of a Śūdra; व/श्य $ जा0वनां� स्वधमे2र्णा शू�द्रःव�त्त्य�विपृ वत�य�त� Ms.1.98,

-- 1564 --

- शा�सनम् 1 dominion of a Śūdra. -2 a written bond of a Śūdra; L. D. B. -3 an edict addressed to Śūdras. -स$स्पशा��the touch of a Śūdra; अस्वर्ग्याय�� ह्या�हुवित� स� स्य�च्छू�द्रःस�स्पशू�दूविषोत� Ms.5.14. -स�वनम् serving a Śūdra, being the servant of a Śūdra; Ms.11.69.



शू�द्रः� (p. 317) [ sûdr&asharp; ] f. woman of the fourth caste: -putra, m. son of a Sûdrâ; a&half;artha-yâgaka, a.




sacrificing with the money of a Sûdra; â-vedin, a. marrying a Sûdrâ.

Thank you

Your message is too cluttered... please would you mind rephrasing your query clearly and address it directly and not from any references?

Thanks


I infer that you are asking me to say where the term shudra refers to ignorance...

1. In the famous dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira, Yudhishtira responds thus (am paraphrasing here) to the question "Who is a brahmana"

"One who is patient, good of conduct and behaviour, sattvic, enlightened... is a brahmana"

Thus the classification which Yudhishtira uses here is knowledge and good conduct (knowledge here refers to knowledge of the spiritual)... thus as we proceed down the ladder, we find that shudras are the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge)

2. "Janmana jayathe Shudra, Karmana jayathe Dwija"... by birth all are shudras (meaning that there is ignorance or avidhya)... only by karma (recognized due to vidhya or knowledge), one becomes a Dwija...

s007bala 03-14-2009 06:17 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18551) I infer that you are asking me to say where the term shudra refers to ignorance...

1. In the famous dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira, Yudhishtira responds thus (am paraphrasing here) to the question "Who is a brahmana"

"One who is patient, good of conduct and behaviour, sattvic, enlightened... is a brahmana"

Thus the classification which Yudhishtira uses here is knowledge and good conduct (knowledge here refers to knowledge of the spiritual)... thus as we proceed down the ladder, we find that shudras are the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge)

2. "Janmana jayathe Shudra, Karmana jayathe Dwija"... by birth all are shudras (meaning that there is ignorance or avidhya)... only by karma (recognized due to vidhya or knowledge), one becomes a Dwija...

S S

Exactly correct.Therefore all the the four personality traits is in-born in a individual all over the world,and by virtue of characterstics displayed naturally by a human being,automatically defines him as brahmana,kshatriya,vaishya,shudra.There is nothing superior or inferior in any job a individual does.There is pride in all the four jobs.But society ie human nature is such,people mis-behave on account of ahamkaram or ego.The four colors given to us White=brahmana;Red=Kshatriya;Yellow=Vaishyas;Black =shudra.Again these awere classified to administer easily,which is prevailing in every part of the globe,world over with a different nomenclature.

With reference to the topic,we can have two views about it.Whatever the ruler does,it will be for the larger interest of the whole community.The other view is,to hold on to smapradayas,traditons etc and fight for your established tradition.More often than not,people like change.:peep:

sb


sb, methinks that there are two lines of brahmins - one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards...

The other group are the brahmanas by virtue of enlightenment... there is no jathi, no group, sub-group etc kinda differentiation here... in our scriptures, we have to be careful to understand where it talks about jathi-brahmanas and where it talks about brahma-gnyanis...

As a converse of the above reasoning, it means that there were jathi- kshatriyas, jathi-vaishyas and jathi-shudras... this sort of classification, as you rightly put it exists in all countries under different names (look for example Nehru -> Indira -> Rajiv -> Sonia ->Rahul/Priyanka... even in such a modern setup we still find such examples...) but there was enough intermingling and interchanging of occupations in the olden days due to various circumstances... which is quite true even now...

The whole issue of HR&CE taking over the administration etc of hindu temples seems quite hollow... the "on-paper" motive may be for social justice and better administration, in practice, it is clearly used for anti-brahmin movements...

s007bala 03-14-2009 06:45 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18560) sb, methinks that there are two lines of brahmins - one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards...

The other group are the brahmanas by virtue of enlightenment... there is no jathi, no group, sub-group etc kinda differentiation here... in our scriptures, we have to be careful to understand where it talks about jathi-brahmanas and where it talks about brahma-

gnyanis...

As a converse of the above reasoning, it means that there were jathi- kshatriyas, jathi-vaishyas and jathi-shudras... this sort of classification, as you rightly put it exists in all countries under different names (look for example Nehru -> Indira -> Rajiv -> Sonia ->Rahul/Priyanka... even in such a modern setup we still find such examples...) but there was enough intermingling and interchanging of occupations in the olden days due to various circumstances... which is quite true even now...

The whole issue of HR&CE taking over the administration etc of hindu temples seems quite hollow... the "on-paper" motive may be for social justice and better administration, in practice, it is clearly used for anti-brahmin movements...

Axe Party Thondannukku Vetri!:bowl:

sb

s007bala 03-14-2009 09:59 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18547) Dear Senior , i could not find such a meaning for that word. pls give me a citation for my reference


शू�द्रः� śūdrḥ शू�द्रः� [शू�च्�- रक्� पृ�षो ˚ च्स्य दः� दः�र्घः�� Uṇ.2.19] A man of the fourth or the last of the four principal tribes of the

Hindus; he is said to have been born from the feet of Puruṣa; पृदः�भ्य�� शू�द्रः अजा�यत Ṛv.1.9.12; or of Brahman;

Ms.1.87; and his principal business was to serve the three higher castes; । एक्मे�व त� शू�द्रःस्य प्रभुः�� क्मे� समे�दिदःशूत� ॥ एत�षो�मे�व वर्णा��नां�� शू�श्रु�षो�मेनांस�यय� Ms.1.9. -Comp. -आर्ता�� the Priyaṅgu plant. -आह्नि�कम् the daily ceremonies

or observances of a Śūdra. -उदकम् water polluted by the touch of a Śūdra. -क� त्यम्, -धम्�� the duties of a Śūdra.

घ्न, -हन a. 1 killing a Śūdra. -2 the slayer of a Śūdra; एतदः�व व्रत� क्� त्स्नां� षोण्मे�स�नां� शू�द्रःहा� च्र�त� Ms.11.13. -प्रि�य� an onion. -��ष्य� a man of any of the three higher castes who has become a servant to a Śūdra. -भू�ह्नियष्ठ a.

consisting mostly of Śūdra; यद्रः�ष्ट्रं� शू�द्रःभुः�यियष्ठमे� (विवनांश्यवित) Ms.8.22. -य�जक� one who con- ducts a sacrifice for a

Śūdra. -रा�ज्यम् a country of which a Śūdra is a king; नां शू�द्रःर�ज्य� विनांवस�त� Ms.4.61. -वर्गः�� the Śūdra or servile

class. -व�त्तिः!� the occupation of a Śūdra; व/श्य $ जा0वनां� स्वधमे2र्णा शू�द्रःव�त्त्य�विपृ वत�य�त� Ms.1.98,

-- 1564 --

- शा�सनम् 1 dominion of a Śūdra. -2 a written bond of a Śūdra; L. D. B. -3 an edict addressed to Śūdras. -स$स्पशा��the touch of a Śūdra; अस्वर्ग्याय�� ह्या�हुवित� स� स्य�च्छू�द्रःस�स्पशू�दूविषोत� Ms.5.14. -स�वनम् serving a Śūdra, being the servant of a Śūdra; Ms.11.69.



शू�द्रः� (p. 317) [ sûdr&asharp; ] f. woman of the fourth caste: -putra, m. son of a Sûdrâ; a&half;artha-yâgaka, a. sacrificing with the money of a Sûdra; â-vedin, a. marrying a Sûdrâ.

Thank you

Ravi

Brahmana Kshatriya Vaishya Shudra are all personality traits in every human being existing all over the world,from time immemorial.To quote Manu out of context is ,incorrect.While we should not go by the literal translation of the word with present living generation.

What Kazhagam leaders have acheived in TN,is no mean acheivement.Only when chaos exist,then Kazhagam leaders can intervene and act their jurisprudence over the mass.Not all the people are educated by going to colleges and earning degree.What degree has any Kazhagam leader of the past generation earned?How is it,dynastic succession of political grooming is happening?Why then Dikshitars are targetted?

The British used us before and now we ourselves are using ourselves to such tactics deployed.Now Christains are inspired by Christ and do have endless amount of resources available,only becoz the majority of population in the world are Christians.So,India is a the target now,to create chaos and make the country retard in growing economic progress.

Unknowingly or knowingly Kazhagam leaders are playing into the hands of traitors of India.

sb:usa2:


:doh:

We find that shudras are the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge)

The reason for jathi sudras were made fools (which has to be as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira) is the manusmrithi only and jathi Brahmins who acted upon the followings.

A Shudra is unfit of receive education. The upper varnas should not impart education or give advice to a Shudra. It is not necessary that the Shudra should know the laws and codes and hence need not be taught. Violators will go to as amrita hell. (Manu IV-78 to 81)

He must never read the Vedas in the presence of the Shudras. (Manu IV. 99.) If a Shudra arrogantly presumes to preach religion to Brahmins, the king shall have poured burning oil in his mouth and ears. Manu VIII. 272.)



Bhagvadgita XII. 4. If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the veda, then his tongue should be cut off; if he has mastered the veda his body should be cut to pieces.

Therefore jathi Sudras were made always sudra (fool) by birth and profession by the so called wise people(?) as per instructions given by Manusmrithi. cruel intention.

I do not agree with the view that " methinks that there are two lines of brahmins - one by birth (the jathi brahmanas) and the other by knowledge... The jathi brahmanas are to preserve the vedic tradition and to teach/advise the society; they may or may not be "enlightened", but they live their life (karma) according to set standards..." As per Manu code, that view is so contrary.

A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by decent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra (however learned he may be). (Manu VIII.20.)Emphasises given.

The reason for claiming Lord Siva's properties in Chidambaram, i think, is due to the manusmrithi's verdict that No Shudra should have property of his own, He should have nothing of his own. The existence of a wealthy Shudra is bad for the Brahmins. A Brahman may take possession of the goods of a Shudra. A Brahman may seize without hesitation, if he be in distress for his subsistence, the goods of his Shudra. The Shudra can have only one occupation. This is one of the inexorable laws of Manu. says Manu. (Manu VIII. 417) (ManuVIII-417 & X129)

Because lord Siva is named as God of Kapaali Matham or chandala Matham. He is god for Chandala and Aghori. Since Lord Siva is named for Mayanatheivam (Smasana Deva) and god for aghoris (who eat corpes), he has to be inferred as God for chandala (kapaaleeswara) but worshipped by all the people irrespective of their caste. He is universal God for all people irrespective of their birth or profession. But his Darsan was prevented to Nandanar on the score of birth. Since Lord Siva is having no father and mother, he is anaadhi. Therefore he should be neither Ekajanmi nor Dwijanmi.He is described as wearing upaweetham (Dwijanma character), though his profession is destruction and God for Chandala and aghoris (Ekajanma Character-Sudra). Therefore he should be inferred as neither a sudra (fool) nor a brilliant as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira. If Mr.Nandanar is Sudra (fool), who was prevented by then Wise Thillai Moovayirathavar to have Siva Darsan, Lord Siva had to be a Sudra as he permitted him and gave moksha. He breached the code of Manusmrithi. Whether Lord Siva will be punished as per Manusmrithi or not for giving Moksha to Nandanar?

I do not think so. He is such a brilliant as he has his highest abode in Kailasam in Himalayan range, instead of Chidambaram. Or otherwise, the Himalayan Mountain range would be claimed as private property built by themselves.

பி�றிப்பெபி�க்கும் எல்ல� உயா�ர்க்கும் ��றிப்பெபி�வ்வி�பெ�ய்பெதா�ழி�ல் மேவிற்றுமை� யா�ன்.Meaning: All lives are equal by birth; their glory differs only due to their choice of occupation.

யா�பெனானா பெதான்னுஞ் பெ�ருக்கறுப்பி�ன் வி�மேனா�ர்க்குயார்ந்தா உலகம் புகும். ( குறிள் எண் : 346 )

மு.வ :உடம்மைபி யா�ன் எனாக் கருதாலும் பெதா�டர்பு இல்ல�தா பெபி�ருமை$ எனாது எனாக்கருதாலு��க.யா �யாக்கத்மைதா மேபி�க்குக.ன்றிவின், மேதாவிர்க்கும் எட்ட�தா உயார்ந்தா நி.மைல அமைடவி�ன்.

happyhindu 03-16-2009 02:43 PM

these are the troubles, travails of interpolation...sad state of affairs.

s007bala 03-16-2009 05:02 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18576) :doh:

We find that shudras are the ones who are engaged in tamasic acts due to ignorance or avidhya (absence of discerning knowledge)


A Shudra is unfit of receive education. The upper varnas should not impart education or give advice to a Shudra. It is not necessary that the Shudra should know the laws and codes and hence need not be taught. Violators will go to as amrita hell. (Manu IV-78 to 81)



Therefore jathi Sudras were made always sudra (fool) by birth and profession by the so called wise people(?) as per instructions given by Manusmrithi. cruel intention.


A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by decent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra (however learned he may be). (Manu VIII.20.)Emphasises given.

The reason for claiming Lord Siva's properties in Chidambaram, i think, is due to the manusmrithi's verdict that No Shudra should have property of his own, He should have nothing of his own. The existence of a wealthy Shudra is bad for the Brahmins. A Brahman may take possession of the goods of a Shudra. A Brahman may seize without hesitation, if he be in distress for his subsistence, the goods of his Shudra. The Shudra can have only one occupation. This is one of the inexorable laws of Manu. says Manu. (Manu VIII. 417) (ManuVIII-417 & X129)

Because lord Siva is named as God of Kapaali Matham or chandala Matham. He is god for Chandala and Aghori. Since Lord Siva is named for Mayanatheivam (Smasana Deva) and god for aghoris (who eat corpes), he has to be inferred as God for chandala (kapaaleeswara) but worshipped by all the people irrespective of their caste. He is universal God for all people irrespective of their birth or profession. But his Darsan was prevented to Nandanar on the score of birth. Since Lord Siva is having no father and mother, he is anaadhi. Therefore he should be neither Ekajanmi nor Dwijanmi.He is described as wearing upaweetham (Dwijanma character), though his profession is destruction and God for Chandala and aghoris (Ekajanma Character-Sudra). Therefore he should be inferred as neither a sudra (fool) nor a brilliant as per the dialogue between Nahusha and Yudhishtira. If Mr.Nandanar is Sudra (fool), who was prevented by then Wise Thillai Moovayirathavar to have Siva Darsan, Lord Siva had to be a Sudra as he permitted him and gave moksha. He breached the code of Manusmrithi. Whether Lord Siva will be punished as per Manusmrithi or not for giving Moksha to Nandanar?


பி�றிப்பெபி�க்கும் எல்ல� உயா�ர்க்கும் ��றிப்பெபி�வ்வி�

பெ�ய்பெதா�ழி�ல் மேவிற்றுமை� யா�ன்.Meaning: All lives are equal by birth; their glory differs only due to their choice of occupation.

யா�பெனானா பெதான்னுஞ் பெ�ருக்கறுப்பி�ன் வி�மேனா�ர்க்

குயார்ந்தா உலகம் புகும். ( குறிள் எண் : 346 )

மு.வ :உடம்மைபி யா�ன் எனாக் கருதாலும் பெதா�டர்பு இல்ல�தா பெபி�ருமை$ எனாது எனாக்கருதாலு��க.யா �யாக்கத்மைதா மேபி�க்குக.ன்றிவின், மேதாவிர்க்கும் எட்ட�தா உயார்ந்தா நி.மைல அமைடவி�ன்.

ravi

there are plenty of books in samskritam ,tamil...etc.It all depends upon which book you want to choose.There was nothing preventing the Tamizh rulers to use Tamizh 'noolgal' to administer a way of life,but yet listened to people of brahmana culture.To quote out of context from manu is not a clever thing to do.In the same Manu,there are N-number of verses which speaks differently.Brahmins constituted only less 3% in the past and now its less than 3% now.How is it possible for a minority to hold sway over the mass population.After 1947 ,what prevented Tamizh leaders to teach only Tamizh,barring english,hindi?in TN?

Thirukkkural could have been made the only 'book' to follow?or silapathikaram,manimeghalai,.....etc.So,for you to pull of Manu,is like pulling up Dr.M.G.Ramachandran,Dr.M.Karunanidhi,Dr.J.Jayalali thaa...etc are these doctrates from any world college,but becoz how they shaped TN with their sense of propriety,they earned this title and above all won the place in peoples heart.

But,chidambaram temple issue,is getting complicated as the days goes by,which will

instill the seeds of revolt sooner or later on the majority religion prevailing killing all political leaders.When the mobocrazy raises,then politicians will run like,thunda kaanum thuniya kannum.Then minority religions people will also be killed which christians,muslims,jains,sikhs,buddhists....etc.

sb:doh:


:flypig:

VASISHTA was the son of a prostitute; VYASA was born of a fisher woman; PARASARA's mother was a chandala; NAMMALWAR was a Sudra.

I think Veda Vyasa codified the Veda before the codification of Manusmrithi. or otherwise, his will be punished for that. he escapped.

Thanks to previous British Government's new laws. or otherwise Bharath will be populated with deafs and dumbs.

s007bala 03-16-2009 05:30 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18582) :flypig:




Even before British stepped on the shores of Bharatham,in which baharatham included the geographical lands of Egypt,Israel,Mecca,Medina,Russian Territories,Chinesse Territories,Far East...North Pole...etc Sanathana Dharma prevailed over.

There are plus and minus of British laws.Bharatham should resort to its own cultural laws(Panchayathi Raj) adapting it to the present prevailing situation.Look at the Judicial System in India as a whole and in particular TN.Look at the number of backlogs of pending cases.Look at the corruption of the courts.Justice is blind in India,why?becoz you are using a system which was invented by englishman for his english people.Now the natives are aping it and have become apes in the bargain.

sb


Quote:


Perhaps you misunderstood it? Re-read my post again to understand it... seems that you have a negative fixation on manusmriti...

Quote:


You need not agree... similarly, your views are not universal and neither are they capable of divining the past... based on the current (interpolation, as hh puts it)...

You conveniently use the term jathi brahmanas... yes, there are jathi brahmanas and they are carrying out a tradition... why do you want to interfere with that?

If you are so sure of the supreme shiva, you can always worship him without a temple... it is not necessary to disturb a tradition to prove a point...

The reason why this issue is raised is:

1) Vendetta against the jathi brahmins, out of pure jealousy...

2) Covert actions against our dharma and culture by papal and islamic spearheads...

If there is a tradition in rome, nobody wishes to change it just to prove that all are equal... rather they respect it... here, in this temple issue, the motive is one of revenge born out of hatred... there is no devotion involved here...

Quote:


Tenzing and Edmund did not see anybody on everest... the numerous expeditions in the himalayan holy places also do not see anybody who calls shiva there...


Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18582) :flypig:




Vishnu Sahasranamam:

"vyAsAya vishNu-rUpAya vyAsa-rUpAya vishNavenamo vai Brahma-nidhaye vAsishtAya namo namaH"

My repeated salutations to vyAsa who is a form of vishNu and to vishNu who is a form of vyAsa- sage vyAsa, who is a descendent of vasishta and who is a treasure of brahman, (i.e. vedas).

"Athri, Bhrigu, Kuthsa, Vashishta, Gautama, Kashyapa, Angeerasa"... are the sapta rishis...

And not nilly-willy characters thought of by a questionable identity in kali-yuga...


If Lord Siva is in favour of Dikshidars, then he would intructed the judges in their dream as he instructed thillai moovayirathavar to allow Nandanar inside the Temple. But Lord Siva is not in their favour. Therefore he did not instructed so.

And Further Indian Constitution and Supreme Court too will not be in their favour, as per various Supreme Court judgements cited earlier.


[quote=ravivararo;18590]If Lord Siva is in favour of Dikshidars, then he would intructed the judges in their dream as he instructed thillai moovayirathavar to allow Nandanar inside the Temple. But Lord Siva is not in their favour. Therefore he did not instructed so.quote]HA HA HA... good going... beautiful logic...

So, extending the above logic, if shiva is in favour of any actions, he would come in a dream and instruct accordingly... so, we need not have any judicial system etc... if anyone wants a decision, just pray to shiva and fall asleep in the hope that shiva would instruct in a dream...

Quote:

And Further Indian Constitution and Supreme Court too will not be in their favour, as per

various Supreme Court judgements cited earlier.

AS for constitutional and judicial matters, perhaps it would be wise to see how the case proceeds... if it were so crystal clear and simple, there would not have been a case in the first instance...

s007bala 03-16-2009 08:20 PM

re S S

>>Tenzing and Edmund did not see anybody on the everest... the numerous expeditions in the himalayan holy places also do not see anybody who calls shiva there... <<

Mahaswami Baba Avtaar still gives darshanam to devotees when you go on a pilgrimage.One must have the 'divya drishti' to see the Lord Shiva & Amma Parvathi in Kailsham,just becoz every tom,dick,&harry or every evr,nietzche,bill maher ...etc have not seen god that does not mean god does not exist!!See the joke in Nir-Ishvara-Vada post :)

sb

ravivararo 03-17-2009 09:52 AM

so, we need not have any judicial system etc... if anyone wants a decision, just pray to shiva and fall asleep in the hope that shiva would instruct in a dream

Nir-Ishvara-Vadam. i am against Ishwara Swam apahara, whomsoever it may be. Thats all.

[quote=Seshadri Subramaniam;18591]Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18590) If Lord Siva is in favour of Dikshidars, then he would intructed the judges in their dream as he instructed thillai moovayirathavar to allow Nandanar inside the Temple. But Lord Siva is not in their favour. Therefore he did not instructed so.quote]HA HA HA... good going... beautiful logic...

So, extending the above logic, if shiva is in favour of any actions, he would come in a dream and instruct accordingly... so, we need not have any judicial system etc... if anyone wants a decision, just pray to shiva and fall asleep in the hope that shiva would instruct in a dream...

AS for constitutional and judicial matters, perhaps it would be wise to see how the case proceeds... if it were so crystal clear and simple, there would not have been a case in the first instance...


My dear friend, i am saivaite, my native is Pillaiyarpatti a temple town near karaikudi, my family is serving for the temple for 400 years continuously, every year my grand father visits Kasi, Gangothri, Rishikesh, every year i used to visit Chidambaram along with my Uncle and grand father.

I have served in Jammu & Kashmir, Assam, West Bengak, Orissa, Kerala I have seen all the non senses by so called ritual gurus (Brahmins, Dhikshithars etc.,) in the temple. Let it begging for money in the name of god or Devadhasi system (of course devadhasi system to some extent is not prevalent today).

We have very good library of all tamil literature nearly 1000 books in my house.

Studied from Dharmapuram and Thiruvavadurai Adheenam run colleges.

No one else can describe or define Hindu and hinduism as swami Vivekananda did so far the reading i am concerned.

Four years back once Jeyendhirar told Brahmins are above the God because they protect (it is a deva dhushana) and expound the god to this world etc., and with in one month from the date of said public speech he was arrested and he was counting jail rods.

For lot of reasons i love and respect Brahmins and Dhikshidhars like Maraimalai Adigal, ParidhimaRkalaignar, U.V.Sa, Srinivasa Iyengar etc who are Aryans (not racial name) and though whose mother tongue is Sanksrit, they contributed much only to Tamil.:horn:

Gunam naadi kutramum nadi,Avatrul migainaadi mikka kolal.

[email protected] 03-17-2009 12:28 PM

:horn:dear Ravivivaro, wonderfull collection of 1000 books, but just reading will not give knowledge, put into pratical, Thillai, Chidambaram, ponambalam all just above the Eye centre, Pl,read Tirumanthram and understand, Dont say Beggers, you must see from their angle, Now what reson you are visiting temples, aor taking holy bath in rivers, oryour sins vanished, NO.

s007bala 03-17-2009 03:44 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18600) My dear friend, i am saivaite, my native is Pillaiyarpatti a temple town near karaikudi, my family is serving for the temple for 400 years continuously, every year my grand father visits Kasi, Gangothri, Rishikesh, every year i used to visit Chidambaram along with my Uncle and grand father.

I have served in Jammu & Kashmir, Assam, West Bengak, Orissa, Kerala I have seen all the non senses by so called ritual gurus (Brahmins, Dhikshithars etc.,) in the temple. Let it begging for money in the name of god or Devadhasi system (of course devadhasi system to some extent is not prevalent today).

We have very good library of all tamil literature nearly 1000 books in my house.

Studied from Dharmapuram and Thiruvavadurai Adheenam run colleges.

No one else can describe or define Hindu and hinduism as swami Vivekananda did so far the reading i am concerned.

Four years back once Jeyendhirar told Brahmins are above the God because they protect (it is a deva dhushana) and expound the god to this world etc., and with in one month from the date of said public speech he was arrested and he was counting jail rods.

For lot of reasons i love and respect Brahmins and Dhikshidhars like Maraimalai Adigal, ParidhimaRkalaignar, U.V.Sa, Srinivasa Iyengar etc who are Aryans (not racial name) and though whose mother tongue is Sanksrit, they contributed much only to Tamil.:horn:

Gunam naadi kutramum nadi,

Avatrul migainaadi mikka kolal.

ravi

without ambal mahalakshmi's grace (money) life will be in penury.Would you,like to live a life of penury?So,plz do not demean brahmins.The knowledge which they posses either thru training or thru 'svadharma' imbibed naturally due to repeated change of bodies,the 'atma' is effulgent.

Brahmana,Kshatriya,Vaishyas,Shudras are all personality traits (svabhavam) or one's inner nature which shapes up according to one 's karma vasanas.Plz treat all with love,then see the transformation in your own life and the life around you.

What the Nagarathar Chettiars have done for Sanathana Dharma is matchess and priceless.In todays world,everyone wants a comfortable life,so lets understand each other,and let Dikshitar be our guardian angels in Chidambaram.

sb:hug:


The following allegations could not be answered.

1. Brahmins are not speaking their mother tongue Sanskrit.

2. They has to speak local Dravidian languages only.

3. In the calculation of Yuga, the name order of the 2nd and 3rd yugas were wrongly placed. while dwa means two, dwapara yuga was mentioned as third yuga. while thretha means three, thretha yuga was placed in the 2nd order.

4. Nadi Moolam and Rishi Moolam (VASISHTA was the son of a prostitute; VYASA was born of a fisher woman; PARASARA's mother was a chandala; NAMMALWAR was a Sudra.)

a) Since Veda Vyasa was the son of the prostitute and he codified the Veda before the enactment of Manusmrithi, he would be punished by the king at the instance of great wise

gurus by pouring burning oil in his mouth and ears.


His would be filled with molten lead and lac and his tongue would be cut off and at last, his body would be cut into pieces as per the Bhagavadgita.


b) if Nammalwar is punished for giving Tamil Veda, Then Iyengars will not allow/tolerate the offences against Tamil Veda and Nammalwar who is Sudra, at the instance of Manusmrithi.

c) Sukrachariyar went to work for Asuras esp Mahabali and he had to be declared as jathiprashta/outcaste.

d) Risi Kavas Ilusu was revealed Suktas (X.30) (X.31) (X.32) and (X.33) of Rigveda and sloka 453 of Samveda. Risi Ilusu Aksova mojvan was revealed Sukta (X.34) of Rigveda. Both, under current Manusmriti definition were sudra.

e) In Tandya Brahman (14.66) risi Vatsa has been called a sudra-putra. Revelations to risi Vatsa are there in Rigveda, (VIII.6) (VIII.11), Samveda (8,20,137,143, etc) and Yaj (IV.16-36), (VII.40), (XXVI.15).

f) Risi Kaksivat was son of risi Dirghatamas by a sudra maid servant (Brihaddevata IV.24.25). Risi Kaksivat was revealed many richas in RV (I.119 to 125).

g) Maharisi Vedvyas compiled all richas into four Vedas in the format currently available. He also composed Mahabharat, Shrimad Bhagwat Gita and all the Puranas. He was born to Satyawati daughter of a fisherman by risi Parasar. He was of dark complexion (Krishna Dwaipayan). Thus, as per Manusmriti definition, he was a dalit Hindu/Varna-sankar by birth. As we know, Kauravas and Pandavas were descendants of this Satyawati through Vedvyasa.

h) Maharishi Mahidasa Aitereya, a Maharastrian Sudra (perhaps a Mahar), composed Aitereya Brahman and chapters I, II & III of Aitereya Aryanaka. His mother was a maid named Itara.

i) Maharisi Valmiki who composed Valmiki Ramayan was not a Brahimin by birth.

J) Lord Krishna was a Yadava decendant

1. Let him [a Brahmin] not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras . nor in one swarming with men of the lowest caste . Let him not give advice to a Shudra . for he who explains the sacred law [to a Shudra] or dictates him to a penance will sink together with that [man] into the hell [called] Asamvrita.This rule is already breached in uttar Pradesh.

2. Let him not recite [the Vedas] indistinctly, nor in the presence of Shudras . When he [a Brahmin] has touched a Chandala, a menstruating woman, an outcast, a woman in childbed, a corpse or one who has touched [a corpse], he becomes pure by bathing . Let him not allow a dead Brahmin to be carried out by a Shudra while men of the same caste are at hand, for that burnt offering which is defiled by a Shudra's touch is detrimental to [the deceased's passage to] heaven. A Brahmin who unintentionally approaches a woman of the Chandala or of [any other] very low caste, who eats [the food of such persons] and accepts [gifts from them] becomes an outcast, but [if he does it] intentionally he becomes their equal. Therefore Anuloma and pratiloma people are outcaste people

3. Any country, where there are no Brahmins, of where they are not happy will get devastated and destroyed. (Manu VIII-20 to 22).That is not correct as far as Japan, Israel, etc are concerned.

4. The reasons for claiming by Dikshidahrs of the properties of Lord Siva is as per the Manusmrithi -Chapter I. 100. Whatever exists in the world is, the property of the Brahmana; on account of the excellence of his origin The Brahmana is, indeed, entitled to all.

5. After Manusmrithi Chapter1. 88,To Brahmanas he assigned teaching and studying (the Veda), sacrificing for their own benefit and for others, giving and accepting (of alms), the Authorities to Vedas codified by Sudra Vyasa were entrusted only with Brahmanas.


Ravivarao,

You are quoting from the times when society was classless, then some certain people chose to interpolate scriptures due to various reasons and it all became a mess. While reading abt nattars, i came across info that cholas tried to make occupations rigid by birth (wonder how "dravidians" claim that those times were casteless or classless) (a nattar's son cud become a nattar even if he did not have the administrative skills, thereby leading to the rut from inside...it was one of the causes for their subsequent downfall). Was told rishis are not designed to be born from desire. The gothra system is considered very inconsistent and unreliable by many quarters. Agastya supposedly did not have male kids, many gothras came about by guru-shishya parampara and adoption of practices, brahmins are from everywhere, brahmanism is a culture, all forms of brahminhood are here to stay and questioning the various traditions wud be pointless and unnecessary. Esp questioning stuff based on political sitations wud come across as baseless and futile. Comparing info and literature of those times and trying to apply it to later times or current times, cud come across like comparing oranges and apples....just my one cent. Thanks.


ravi, i seriously dont know whether you are conducting a monologue here... in spite of answers to your queries, you carry on with the same repeated tune... is it that you have no other strategy? well, let me try again to DISCUSS

Quote:

The following allegations could not be answered.

1. Brahmins are not speaking their mother tongue Sanskrit.

What is the meaning of mother tongue? pray answer this. sanskrit is considered as deva bashai... anybody can learn sanskrit - there is no hard and fast rule that brahmins should speak in sanskrit only.Quote:

2. They has to speak local Dravidian languages only.

Then what do you think they are doing now?

Quote:

3. In the calculation of Yuga, the name order of the 2nd and 3rd yugas were wrongly placed. while dwa means two, dwapara yuga was mentioned as third yuga. while thretha means three, thretha yuga was placed in the 2nd order.

Order and positioning is a relative thing... it all depends on where you start counting from. if you start your count from kaliyuga backwards then thretha is third and dwapara is second!

Quote:

4. Nadi Moolam and Rishi Moolam (VASISHTA was the son of a prostitute; VYASA was born of a fisher woman; PARASARA's mother was a chandala; NAMMALWAR was a Sudra.)

a) Since Veda Vyasa was the son of the prostitute and he codified the Veda before the enactment of Manusmrithi, he would be punished by the king at the instance of great wise gurus by pouring burning oil in his mouth and ears.

I have replied to this earlier - who was a prostitute???? satyavathi??? How???

Quote:


His would be filled with molten lead and lac and his tongue would be cut off and at last, his body would be cut into pieces as per the Bhagavadgita.

Bhagvadgita XII. 4. If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the veda,

then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead and lac; if he utters the veda, then his tongue should be cut off; if he has mastered the veda his body should be cut to pieces.

So dont recite the veda... what is your problem here? Is it an anger because manu wrote it like that thousands of years ago? or is it because you see sombody pouring molten lead into the ears of a shudra who has recited the vedas?

You must be joking - even the gayatri mantra is available on audio now... can you tell me of any brahmana who practises as per the above verses????

Quote:

b) if Nammalwar is punished for giving Tamil Veda, Then Iyengars will not allow/tolerate the offences against Tamil Veda and Nammalwar who is Sudra, at the instance of Manusmrithi.

Again, leading inferences and biased conclusion... I request you to show me a brahmana who pours molten lead into the ears of a shudra at the instance of manu or by reading manusmriti... btw, I did not clearly understand your above point due to your construct of the sentence...

Quote:

c) Sukrachariyar went to work for Asuras esp Mahabali and he had to be declared as jathiprashta/outcaste.

Okay, so what do you want to do? Why are you taking instances out of ancient ages and seeing the modern brahmana through the olden intent???

Akbar slaughtered 30,000 unarmed citizens because they refused to convert to islam... so can we assume that of every muslim today????

Quote:

d) Risi Kavas Ilusu was revealed Suktas (X.30) (X.31) (X.32) and (X.33) of Rigveda and sloka 453 of Samveda. Risi Ilusu Aksova mojvan was revealed Sukta (X.34) of Rigveda. Both, under current Manusmriti definition were sudra.

e) In Tandya Brahman (14.66) risi Vatsa has been called a sudra-putra. Revelations to risi Vatsa are there in Rigveda, (VIII.6) (VIII.11), Samveda (8,20,137,143, etc) and Yaj (IV.16-36), (VII.40), (XXVI.15).

f) Risi Kaksivat was son of risi Dirghatamas by a sudra maid servant (Brihaddevata IV.24.25). Risi Kaksivat was revealed many richas in RV (I.119 to 125).

g) Maharisi Vedvyas compiled all richas into four Vedas in the format currently available. He also composed Mahabharat, Shrimad Bhagwat Gita and all the Puranas. He was born to Satyawati daughter of a fisherman by risi Parasar. He was of dark complexion (Krishna Dwaipayan). Thus, as per Manusmriti definition, he was a dalit Hindu/Varna-sankar by birth. As we know, Kauravas and Pandavas were descendants of this Satyawati through Vedvyasa.

h) Maharishi Mahidasa Aitereya, a Maharastrian Sudra (perhaps a Mahar), composed Aitereya Brahman and chapters I, II & III of Aitereya Aryanaka. His mother was a maid named Itara.

i) Maharisi Valmiki who composed Valmiki Ramayan was not a Brahimin by birth.

J) Lord Krishna was a Yadava decendant

If you observe the avatars of lord vishnu, except vamanan/parasuraman, all the others were non-brahmin... some are not even human...

What does that have to do with chidambaram temple? If only shows that you are picking up your library for references where you could quote passages to suit your intention...

1. Quote:

Let him [a Brahmin] not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras . nor in one swarming with men of the lowest caste . Let him not give advice to a Shudra . for he who explains the sacred law [to a Shudra] or dictates him to a penance will sink together with that [man] into the hell [called] Asamvrita.This rule is already breached in uttar Pradesh.

I am bored... I have replied to this already... 2. Quote:

Let him not recite [the Vedas] indistinctly, nor in the presence of Shudras . When he [a Brahmin] has touched a Chandala, a menstruating woman, an outcast, a woman in childbed, a corpse or one who has touched [a corpse], he becomes pure by bathing . Let him not allow a dead Brahmin to be carried out by a Shudra while men of the same caste are at hand, for that burnt offering which is defiled by a Shudra's touch is detrimental to [the deceased's passage to] heaven. A Brahmin who unintentionally approaches a woman of the Chandala or of [any other] very low caste, who eats [the food of such persons] and accepts [gifts from them] becomes an outcast, but [if he does it] intentionally he becomes their equal. Therefore Anuloma and pratiloma people are outcaste people

So, what is your problem? There are certain beliefs that are practised... not all are relevant in the current times...

3. Quote:

Any country, where there are no Brahmins, of where they are not happy will get devastated and destroyed. (Manu VIII-20 to 22).That is not correct as far as Japan, Israel, etc are concerned.

Perhaps, the time is not right to make such comments... 4. Quote:

The reasons for claiming by Dikshidahrs of the properties of Lord Siva is as per the Manusmrithi -Chapter I. 100. Whatever exists in the world is, the property of the Brahmana; on account of the excellence of his origin The Brahmana is, indeed, entitled to all.

If such a claim were really believed by the dikshidars,then on the same ground, would they not have claimed your house also?

5. Quote:

After Manusmrithi Chapter1. 88,To Brahmanas he assigned teaching and studying (the Veda), sacrificing for their own benefit and for others, giving and accepting (of alms), the Authorities to Vedas codified by Sudra Vyasa were entrusted only with Brahmanas

I think you have a malicious intent to pour your hatred against brahmins here... take time to cool your heels and read the replies to your posts carefully... We do not want the rantings of a closed mind to ramble here... especially against brahmins...


to all homo sapiens My dear friend,

I took Samaya Dhiksha March 2004 and after taking samaya dhiksha i am named as Ishanamoorthy, i profess what was tought to me. Forget about reading 1000 books, one should have the patience to collect and preserve 1000 books which speaks the mind, experiences, discipline followed to attain the feets of god.

A man always has 1 ounce of shit and 1/2 litre urine preserved in his body (Malam & Jalam). Nobody can claim purity, sanctity and godly by birth.

I have a strong believe that whoever tries to oppress any person in the name of Caste, Colour, Creed, language he gets rebirth as Sudhra toiling whole day in the streets as slaves, handicapped, leading bitter and immoral life, crying for salvation.

Nobody can do brokerage between god and common man in the name of service of god. Please go and visit Raghunath Temple in Jammu, Kali Temple in Kolkata, (please witness the beggary created by Machi Brahmins in Kolkata).

Forget about Tamilnadu where persons carry plates and more concerned about what is being offerred as dhakshina rather than hymning the verses in the praise of god.

What actually i feel is, offering dhakshina on plate it is some short of bribery (mamool) perpetrated in the name of God. rather i would suggest to have only Hundi (which is opened in front EO or responsible persons) where the devotees can offer fearlessly hoping that it will be utilised for the service of god.

Once it was told unless one reads all Veda Manthras one can not realise the god etc., Read the story of Ram krishna Parahamsa, he never read any of the so called sacred books in his life time for purpose of attaining the grace and love of god.

Read the story of Kanappa Nayanar. God never blessed the Pujari (Brahman) who was serving him rather Lord Shiva gave Mukthi to Kannappa Nayanaar (Sudhra).

Let us understand that only the unconditional love and affection towards the god can help us to reach his doors. neither the dhakshina on plates, offering of manthiras, veda.

manthiras and veda are guidlines to the human beings regarding how to co-exist in this society.

The hatred created by idiots in the society in the name of caste, colour, creed, profession etc., will only increase the resistance power of the among the deprived and vindicated people.

Dear friend let us love the deprived, down trodden, poor and illerate regardless of their religion, caste, creed, language. Anbe Sivam.

Regards,

Ravivararo

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 18601) :horn:dear Ravivivaro, wonderfull collection of 1000 books, but just reading will not give knowledge, put into pratical, Thillai, Chidambaram, ponambalam all just above the Eye centre, Pl,read Tirumanthram and understand, Dont say Beggers, you must see from their angle, Now what reson you are visiting temples, aor taking holy bath in rivers, oryour sins vanished, NO.

s007bala 03-17-2009 06:23 PM

re S S

The only Manu whom we all love is our Tamizh singer related to late shivaji ganeshan family.:)

Your reply is excellent.Thank god Ravi is not suggesting, to jump into fire for the present day women,in that case i would have lost my mother in 1990 insted of 2006:noidea:.

Can he really do anything about past events which happened,insted he will get mis-understood like me,becoz i write about Islamic -Mughals and British White Christians,which btw is continuing if one carefully watches global patterns of dominance.

sb:hug:

s007bala 03-17-2009 06:35 PM

Ravi

>> Since Veda Vyasa was the son of the prostitute and he codified the Veda before the enactment of Manusmrithi, he would be punished by the king at the instance of great wise gurus by pouring burning oil in his mouth and ears.<<

Marriage itself is a legalised form of prostitution.The only difference being,if both couple are faithful to each other,they both have a disease called =for the male as=one vaginitis and for the female=one penisitis...:).So,its how you want to accept things in the world which matters and give a spin to it.

sb


If marriage is a prostitution according to you, how shall i call/address pujaris or ritual gurus performing marriage, shall I call them as mama/brokers.

I read a national newspaper during April 2007 at Delhi wherein a pujari from well known mutt in South India who performed the marriage stating Aiswarya Rai as Deva Kannigai. i don't know whether he knows about the past of said ................. or the profession. This is the fate of this country.

In our place we never allow the pujaris to perform marriage and my grandparents have celebrated the 51st marriage anniversary four months ago and they have six children and 8 grand children and 2 great grandchildren, i am one among them.

Please don't justify. I know that every ritual has a underlying concept or their is message to this society evolved with bonafide intention. But later it is transformed as business for livelihood. What is happening now is a business.:yo:

Quote:

Originally Posted by s007bala (Post 18608) Ravi

>> Since Veda Vyasa was the son of the prostitute and he codified the Veda before the enactment of Manusmrithi, he would be punished by the king at the instance of great wise gurus by pouring burning oil in his mouth and ears.<<

Marriage itself is a legalised form of prostitution.The only difference being,if both couple are faithful to each other,they both have a disease called =for the male as=one vaginitis and for the female=one penisitis...:).So,its how you want to accept things in the world which matters and give a spin to it.

sb


True Beggars and True devotees.

முருகனுக்குப் பி�ச்மை�யா�ல் பிங்கு

இந்தாச் பெ�ய்தா. வி�மேனா�தா��கத் பெதா��யால�ம். ஆனா�ல் நிடந்தா உண்மை�ச் �ம்பிவிம்வில்லமேக�ட்மைட முருகன் மேக�யா�மைல எல்மேல�ரும் அறி�விர்.மேக�யா�ல் வி��லில் பி�ச்மை�க்க��கள் அ��க் கூட�து என்றி ஓர் ஆமைAவிந்தாது. ஆனா�ல் நிமைடமுமைறிப் பிடுத்தா ஓர் தாமைட விந்தாது.மேக�யா�ல் தா.ருப்பிA�ப் பிA�க்குப் பி�ச்மை�க்க��ர்கள் பெக�டுத்தா நின்பெக�மைடஅதா.க��னாது. எடுத்தாபி�ச்மை�ப் பிAத்தா.ல் பெபிருந்பெதா�மைக விசூலித்துமுருகனுக்குக் க�A�க்மைகயா�ய்ச் பெ�லுத்தா.வி�ட்டனார். பிAம் பெக�டுக்கும் பெபி�ழுமேதா அது மேக�யா�ல் தா.ருப்பிA�க்கு என்று பெ��ல்லிக் பெக�டுத்தானார்.பித்தா.��மைகயா�ல் வி��தா பெ�ய்தா.. பி�ச்�க்க��ர்கமை$ அங்க.ருந்து மேபி�கச் பெ��ல்லவி�ல்மைல.

:third:


Aryan Community consist of Brahmins, Kshathriyas, Vysyas, Sudras. Dravidian languages are Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam etc., and are spoken by Dravidians. When Tamil is also said to be created by Lord Siva by his Damarukam, it is also Deva Bhashai. Therefore, not Permitting singing Tamil Tevaram in the Temple is called as Deva Dhooshana.

[quote=Seshadri Subramaniam;18605]ravi, i seriously dont know whether you are conducting a monologue here... in spite of answers to your queries, you carry on with the same repeated tune... is it that you have no other strategy? well, let me try again to DISCUSS

What is the meaning of mother tongue? pray answer this. sanskrit is considered as deva bashai... anybody can learn sanskrit - there is no hard and fast rule that brahmins should speak in sanskrit only.

Then what do you think they are doing now?

Seshadri Subramaniam 03-18-2009 11:55 AM

[quote=ravivararo;18616]Aryan Community consist of Brahmins, Kshathriyas, Vysyas, Sudras. Dravidian languages are Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam etc., and are spoken by Dravidians. When Tamil is also said to be created by Lord Siva by his Damarukam, it is also Deva Bhashai. Therefore, not Permitting singing Tamil Tevaram in the Temple is called as Deva Dhooshana.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18605) ravi, i seriously dont know whether you are conducting a monologue here... in spite of answers to your queries, you carry on with the same repeated tune... is it that you have no other strategy? well, let me try again to DISCUSS

What is the meaning of mother tongue? pray answer this. sanskrit is considered as deva bashai... anybody can learn sanskrit - there is no hard and fast rule that brahmins should speak in sanskrit only.Then what do you think they are doing now?

Who is not permitting to sing thevaram inside the temple? I think you are confused. The problem seems to be that everyone wants to recite thevaram from a particular spot. As per existing custom and tradition, it is to be done only by the temple dikshidhars...

sridharvasudevan 03-18-2009 01:01 PM

If a place is marked as monument by the ASI, let's say the Taj Mahal then no one dares to ask why the public would not be allowed to walk over certain places there. Actually it is common sense not to disfigure or damage a monument.

If a place is marked operation theatre in a hospital, only a few designated people are allowed to enter that place other than the patient. Even the chief administrator or owner cannot touch the surgical knife.

If a place is marked for a rock music concert, then even though thousands may pay to be present, only a few are allowed to get on stage, leave alone use the mike. They can all of course sing along during the concert.

If a place is marked for a classical music concert, Indian or western, even though many are in audience, it is considered a disturbance or disrespect if anyone from the audience joins in the singing or performance.

If a place is marked kitchen, inside a company, only certain people are permitted inside, even the CEO cannot take a dig at cooking there. The protocol is quite different in a private place like home.

Simply put, there is a tradition, practice, protocol or what ever we call it, in different public places. There is no question of wrong doing or belittling anyone by imposing these practices or protocols or traditions.

There is no rhyme or reason behind asking, traditions in certain monumental temples to be changed.


I was going through some of the postings made earlier in this thread and found some amusing discussions and interesting perceptions put forth. In an effort to keep my posting short (attempt), I would not quote too much from the earlier postings.

One single word can be used in different context to give entirely different meaning. This is known to all with respect to many languages. In the same way when Manu or anyone of those ages said some thing about not reciting certain mantras or vedas to Sudras, they were referring the word in a particular context. By way of mentioning Sudra, Manu was only trying to say not deserving or illiterate or immature to know or hear or preach the mantras at that point of time of that person.

Take the example of nuclear technology. Is it not true that even though a nuclear scientist might have know everything about a government run project, the scientist can discuss the technology only with a very limited number of people? Do we ask why the chief minister of our state or the RBI chief or the finance minister or a religious head should not know about it? Do we ask in what way they are lesser people? Do we ask in what way they would not keep the secret? No we understand it helps in security of the nation and prevent misuse - Nuclear non-proliferation right?

But, a technology that can do much more than a nuclear technology (mostly used for energy consumption and destruction) of modern times - the power of mantras and vedas are much more advanced in atomic or nuclear or nature technology. Why not have a non-proliferation protocol for that? People will get added into the allowed list when they reach the maturity and internal advancement here.

About dakshina: I saw this word being used for alms given to a beggar. Is it not biskha? Anyway, giving alms to a begger is a way of seeing ourselves in the other. It is not bribery as someone has written. In one instance, years earlier, I had been to Kedarnath. I had been among two groups of sadhus the first day and had the opportunity to provide them some amenities. When I departed, they asked me what I wanted, and I had nothing to ask. Later in the day, I found my chappals had gone missing. The next day morning, one of the sadhus whom I had met the earlier day, help me find it. I was touched by his act. Later that day one of them called me, as I passed him and gave me a panchamukha rudraksha and said he did not have an opportunity to give me anything the previous day. I was very much touched by his act of giving. Later that day one of the sadhus seemed to be following me, a I was a bit annoyed and even suspicious. He said, he wanted me to know Adi Sankara's samadhi was around the corner. He walked along till that place and then went away. I did not see him again. I was touched by his act. When I was about to leave from Kedarnath, a sadhu, whom I vaguely remember to have seen but not met, kept stalking me. There was still many days to go before I could reach home. I had run out of my budget for charity and so was avoiding him. He finally addressed me in a shy manner in Hindi. "I have been watching you being with many of the sadhus around here. Would you not provide me something I need badly". I reached out for a Rs.10 note. He refused to take. I took out a Rs.20 note. He again refused to take. I was quite in the back foot by now. He said,"All that I need is a begging bowl. Please don't give me money". Every time I think about this incident, it brings tears to my eyes. Such is the resolve of some sadhus, they give us an opportunity to give and they live a life of austerity that would motivate us to follow...some time in life.

s007bala 03-18-2009 04:33 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by sridharvasudevan (Post 18621) I was going through some of the postings made earlier in this thread and found some amusing discussions and interesting perceptions put forth. In an effort to keep my posting short (attempt), I would not quote too much from the earlier postings.




About dakshina: I saw this word being used for alms given to a beggar. Is it not biskha? Anyway, giving alms to a begger is a way of seeing ourselves in the other. It is not bribery as someone has written. In one instance, years earlier, I had been to Kedarnath. I had been among two groups of sadhus the first day and had the opportunity to provide them some amenities. When I departed, they asked me what I wanted, and I had nothing to ask. Later in the day, I found my chappals had gone missing. The next day morning, one of the sadhus whom I had met the earlier day, help me find it. I was touched by his act. Later that day one of them called me, as I passed him and gave me a panchamukha rudraksha and said he did not have an opportunity to give me anything the previous day. I was very much touched by his act of giving. Later that day one of the sadhus seemed to be following me, a I was a bit annoyed and even suspicious. He said, he wanted me to know Adi Sankara's samadhi was around the corner. He walked along till that place and then went away. I did not see him again. I was touched by his act. When I was about to leave from Kedarnath, a sadhu, whom I vaguely remember to have seen but not met, kept stalking me. There was still many days to go before I could reach home. I had run out of my budget for charity and so was avoiding him. He finally addressed me in a shy manner in Hindi. "I have been watching you being with many of the sadhus around here. Would you not provide me something I need badly". I reached out for a Rs.10 note. He refused to take. I took out a Rs.20 note. He again refused to take. I was quite in the back foot by now. He said,"All that I need is a begging bowl. Please don't give me money". Every time I think about this incident, it brings tears to my eyes. Such is the resolve of some sadhus, they give us an opportunity to give and they live a life of austerity that would motivate us to follow...some time in life.

S V

Your two posts above is simply fanatstic and so well written,it touches my heart and is bringinging tears to my eyes.In my life the Sadhu or Swami is our Mahaswamigal Of Kanchipuram,when i went to him at a young age of 16 years in a state of confusion on account of personal happenings in my life in Chennai.After testing my resolve for

bhakthi,the great Mahaswamigal shared his food what he eats as 'bhiksha' given to their holinesses as 'bhiksha vandanam' by very many small composite families to them over years as tradition and asked me to give the 'bhiksha' to my parents.Without eating a morsel from it,i carried it all the way back to chennai and shared the 'bhiksha' with my parents,siblings,and relatives who had gathered there awaiting my arrival.

The part of sharing food is prolly one of the greatest blessings that i ever had in our families life and it brought back nostalgic memories of the yore.Thanks again for your splendid post,which is well thought out and written.

sb:hug:

s007bala 03-18-2009 04:44 PM

ravi

>>If marriage is a prostitution according to you, how shall i call/address pujaris or ritual gurus performing marriage, shall I call them as mama/brokers.<<

While my english is not superlative and my expression is unable to convey the real purport,still,i shall attempt again to express my opinion to you=pujaris or ritual gurus..etc are knowledgeable people who use shastra as a medium to reach the pleas to a higher self or god,so that one may be blessed with peace,happiness and life with abundance of joy.Mama's or brokers are human too.Only when there is demand there is supply.Hope you understand,now.

>>I read a national newspaper during April 2007 at Delhi wherein a pujari from well known mutt in South India who performed the marriage stating Aiswarya Rai as Deva Kannigai. i don't know whether he knows about the past of said ................. or the profession. This is the fate of this country.<<

Aiswaraya Rai is now the wife of a respectable gentleman and she herself is a respectable woman.Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones at others.In what way are you perfect,to pass judgements on Aishwarya Rai?

>>In our place we never allow the pujaris to perform marriage and my grandparents have celebrated the 51st marriage anniversary four months ago and they have six children and 8 grand children and 2 great grandchildren, i am one among them.<<

Very nice tradition,isn't it?Now if someone from the Kazhagam barges into your family and says,what you guys are doing is non-sense and only our 'thalaivar' should conduct the blessings,how would you feel?

>>Please don't justify. I know that every ritual has a underlying concept or their is message to this society evolved with bonafide intention. But later it is transformed as business for livelihood. What is happening now is a business.<<

Of course i will justify in the forum as its my belief system thats being tarnished by people who are way out of line.As far things becoming biz,livelihood...etc everyone has to make a living...ellam vayatthu pozhapukku thaan...is another way of looking at things,isn't it?

sb


Yes, shri SV's post has shown why there is no issue at all in chidambaram temple... we are all not vagabonds or "muttrum thurandha gnyanis" and as such we live by certain norms - life,

death or the ultimate... one has got to respect that and not take it in the negative aspect...

Hooligans in the name of god are trying to disrupt the tradition there... by projecting a negative view of the traditions...


Nice reply bala, esp on the aishwarya and the family tradition topic...

Those who portray themselves as selfless and not addicted to any system are themselves victims of their line of thinking... In strongly advocating what they believe is right, they too, unwillingly fall in the trap...

Thus we see that no one is perfect... belittling brahmins and saying that they discriminate for a tradition is ridiculous...

s007bala 03-18-2009 05:08 PM

re [quote=ravivararo;18616]Aryan Community consist of Brahmins, Kshathriyas, Vysyas, Sudras. Dravidian languages are Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam etc., and are spoken by Dravidians. When Tamil is also said to be created by Lord Siva by his Damarukam, it is also Deva Bhashai. Therefore, not Permitting singing Tamil Tevaram in the Temple is called as Deva Dhooshana.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 18605) ravi, i seriously dont know whether you are conducting a monologue here... in spite of answers to your queries, you carry on with the same repeated tune... is it that you have no other strategy? well, let me try again to DISCUSS

What is the meaning of mother tongue? pray answer this. sanskrit is considered as deva bashai... anybody can learn sanskrit - there is no hard and fast rule that brahmins should speak in sanskrit only.Then what do you think they are doing now?

Ravi

The fact that you divide languages as dravidian and aryan,as a premise to debate itself is anumbskull way of addressing languages.All languages are divine and one can express divinity in all languages.Its the opinion of Kazhagam leaders that Tamizh is older than Sanmskritam and therefore Tamizh should be used.In a country like India,wherein i have lived and been raised in more than five states,languages are unique in all states of India.Despite the fact that English men occupied and ruled India for two hundred years,english language is there to stay,its not considered as an alien language.Using this forum to express by all is a testimonial to that fact.

Now if i had the influence and power,then in chidambaram,i will impose ENGLISH as the language to chant in the 'garbha'sthanam!!!Will it jell with the majority population of Tamizh,NO.

There is a established standards by sages & saints to use Samskritam for religious purposes.Now again Tamizh is also used.These are petty issues which political leaders and other minority religions use to divide the majority religions population.As idiots Hindus are mutely watching the horror,but a time will come when,hindus will kill everybody who are interfering with their way of life,that days are coming in the future,if the present trend continues.

sb


Please visit the family court at Chennai you will find couples waiting for divorce if you take ratio one particulars community outnumbers all others. They shall rather file the petition before the Pujari/Swami no Saami asking what went wrong in his performance at the performing the marriage or whether he forgot any sloga at the time marriage.

To me kazhagam means kalagam, if we can shun the Pujaris/ritual gurus from performing marriages then forget about kazhagam they will be thrown out.

Swamigal (running for money) addressing actresses as Deva Kanniga for a paltry sum offered as dhakshina. great and we will celebrate.

Do you think that to lead a happy life, one needs the pujai, pujari, homam, archanai. (these are products which are sold at temple for eking out life)

Once it was told or perception was created that except certain class of community others are ineligible to be imparted with education.

Thank god the Britishers and christian missionaries (people like veerama munivar) came to India who changed educational system, otherwise the ratio of literate people shall be only 2 %.

My only question is why all the knowledge you attain or being acquired after extensive studies is being used for supress and deprive the poor and downtrodden vindicate him by birth. The only answer is you want to live in comfort and at the top and you are insecure since you know that knowledge has nothing to do with class or community.

Truth, knowledge and Power you try to burry, put it on fire, beneath the Ocean whatever, but one day it will come up like a rising sun nobody can stop it. (the way Barrack Obama did it in US)

Regards,

Ravi.

:hungry:

uote=s007bala;18624]ravi

>>If marriage is a prostitution according to you, how shall i call/address pujaris or ritual gurus performing marriage, shall I call them as mama/brokers.<<

While my english is not superlative and my expression is unable to convey the real purport,still,i shall attempt again to express my opinion to you=pujaris or ritual gurus..etc are knowledgeable people who use shastra as a medium to reach the pleas to a higher self or god,so that one may be blessed with peace,happiness and life with abundance of joy.Mama's or brokers are human too.Only when there is demand there is supply.Hope you understand,now.

>>I read a national newspaper during April 2007 at Delhi wherein a pujari from well known mutt in South India who performed the marriage stating Aiswarya Rai as Deva Kannigai. i don't know whether he knows about the past of said ................. or the profession. This is the fate of this country.<<

Aiswaraya Rai is now the wife of a respectable gentleman and she herself is a respectable woman.Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones at others.In what way are you perfect,to pass judgements on Aishwarya Rai?

>>In our place we never allow the pujaris to perform marriage and my grandparents have celebrated the 51st marriage anniversary four months ago and they have six children and 8 grand children and 2 great grandchildren, i am one among them.<<

Very nice tradition,isn't it?Now if someone from the Kazhagam barges into your family and says,what you guys are doing is non-sense and only our 'thalaivar' should conduct the blessings,how would you feel?

>>Please don't justify. I know that every ritual has a underlying concept or their is message to this society evolved with bonafide intention. But later it is transformed as business for livelihood. What is happening now is a business.<<

Of course i will justify in the forum as its my belief system thats being tarnished by people who are way out of line.As far things becoming biz,livelihood...etc everyone has to make a living...ellam vayatthu pozhapukku thaan...is another way of looking at things,isn't it?

sb[/quote]


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which Agama has said that Tevaram should not recited in that particular spot. Who has created such a tradition and custum and to which is there any agamic sanctity. From the period of King Raja Raja (subject to our Memory), history (Lord Trinetri too) witnesses the injustice/illtreatment to Tevaram by the spiritual/ritual gurus.

[quote=Seshadri Subramaniam;18617]Quote:




















Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18616) Aryan Community consist of Brahmins, Kshathriyas, Vysyas, Sudras. Dravidian languages are Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam etc., and are spoken by Dravidians. When Tamil is also said to be created by Lord Siva by his Damarukam, it is also Deva Bhashai. Therefore, not Permitting singing Tamil Tevaram in the Temple is called as Deva Dhooshana.

Who is not permitting to sing thevaram inside the temple? I think you are confused. The problem seems to be that everyone wants to recite thevaram from a particular spot. As per existing custom and tradition, it is to be done only by the temple dikshidhars...


[quote]Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18641) which Agama has said that Tevaram should not recited in that particular spot. Who has created such a tradition and custum and to which is there any agamic sanctity. From the period of King Raja Raja (subject to our Memory), history (Lord Trinetri too) witnesses the injustice/illtreatment to Tevaram by the spiritual/ritual gurus.

I suggest that you look up the meaning of "custom" or "tradition".... before you post such queries. It looks childish and immature...

And let us not talk about agamas... ok...? lest somebody should pour molten lead into somebody's ears or cut somebody's tongue...

You are jumping from one argument to another... There have been four members who have tried to make you understand one simple point - it is but a tradition and respect it... nobody denies the equality of humans, at least before god.

You seem to be suffering from stockholm syndrome that you praise the christians who treated Indians like slaves... perhaps you do not prefer an independent India!!! But that is another topic...

In the name of equality, fools have been questioning all our cultures, customs and traditions... no one is fit enough to judge on what were the circumstances prevailing in the ancient ages... and neither does anybody has the wisdom or grace to fully comprehend it...


A general note (of mine) to what I see as your (ravi) perception of our traditions in Hindu culture.

There was a time, when I visited a temple far from my home, I used to watch my parents close their eyes and pray before the deity. I then asked them, did you come all the way to close your eyes and not even see the deity within the short time we are here?

Today I look back at those days of my childish ignorance, playfulness, freedom with my parents and curiosity to know more about our traditions.

Later in life being in the midst of good friends, I happened to meet some people who helped me understand the depth and meaning of many of our traditions.

Once, it so happened in a visit to tirumala, I saw people stacking up stones at a site of samadhis near venugopala swami temple. With reverence for that place, I had removed the stones and wiped the place with my hands. Seeing this a devotee from North India, admonished me. When I came back to my home town, I met a teacher of mine. I recalled that incident, in a view that I had done something good and I was looking for support from my teacher. To my surprise, my teacher also admonished me saying, "You have no job disturbing their belief". That was an important lesson for me. While, I can follow my traditions, beliefs and stick to it, I still have no right to disturb the other person's faith. Neither does the other have a right to disturb mine.

So the line is very thin.

"The limit of our freedom ends where it tramples on the freedom of another person".


<<All languages are divine and one can express divinity in all languages.>>

Then, Not only Sanskrit but also Tamil is suitable for praising Lord Siva anywhere else in Chidambaram Temple.

<<Its the opinion of Kazhagam leaders that Tamizh is older than Sanmskritam and therefore Tamizh should be used.>>

Theny why the false assumption and claims that Sanskrit is the mother of Tamil. Even assuming that Sanskrit was spoken(?), Tamil has co existed along with in it during the period of Satyavrata, who is dravideswara as per vishnupurana/bhagavatha purana. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_(Hinduism)

<<Now if i had the influence and power,then in chidambaram,i will impose ENGLISH as the language to chant in the 'garbha'sthanam!!!Will it jell with the majority population of Tamizh,NO.>>

Ever if i have the power and influence, not only in chidamabram, elsewhere in South India, i will ban Skt in enchanting and praising Lord and I will direct the people to praise the God in their own language at their wish. If Sanskrit is Deva bhasa (Deva paadai), let the God speak among themselves. except Skt, all languages of India are Maanusha Bhashas [http://tashindu.blogspot.com/], (which ritual gurus claim malafidely as paisacha Bhasas). God shall communicate with the people in their language.

<<There is a established standards by sages & saints to use Samskritam for religious purposes.Now again Tamizh is also used>>

Where it is, when the ritual gurus like pothu Dikshidars are there?. it is not, to be used, but it should be. Middlemen are just brokers.

Ravi

[quote=s007bala;18627]

http://tashindu.blogspot.com/%5D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_(Hinduism

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18616) Aryan Community consist of Brahmins, Kshathriyas, Vysyas, Sudras. Dravidian languages are Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam etc., and are spoken by Dravidians. When Tamil is also said to be created by Lord Siva by his Damarukam, it is also Deva Bhashai. Therefore, not Permitting singing Tamil Tevaram in the Temple is called as Deva Dhooshana.

Ravi

The fact that you divide languages as dravidian and aryan,as a premise to debate itself is anumbskull way of addressing languages.All languages are divine and one can express divinity in all languages.Its the opinion of Kazhagam leaders that Tamizh is older than Sanmskritam and therefore Tamizh should be used.In a country like India,wherein i have lived and been raised in more than five states,languages are unique in all states of India.Despite the fact that English men occupied and ruled India for two hundred years,english language is there to stay,its not considered as an alien language.Using this forum to express by all is a testimonial to that fact.

Now if i had the influence and power,then in chidambaram,i will impose ENGLISH as the language to chant in the 'garbha'sthanam!!!Will it jell with the majority population of Tamizh,NO.

There is a established standards by sages & saints to use Samskritam for religious purposes.Now again Tamizh is also used.These are petty issues which political leaders and other minority religions use to divide the majority religions population.As idiots Hindus are mutely watching the horror,but a time will come when,hindus will kill everybody who are interfering with their way of life,that days are coming in the future,if the present trend continues.

sb


<<"The limit of our freedom ends where it tramples on the freedom of another person". >>

The said rule is applicable only when all are given equal treatment. when several people are denied their right by few minority people, it is not applicable. They will raise their voice against the minority, who are having no base of their own.

Not only Samadhi but also Temple, Devotees (alone) and not middlemen or broker is entitled for their Mariyadhai. Give Respect and take respect. Thats all. No ritual guru can respect that without respecting common people by them. (aasai irukku Adhigaram panna, Adhirstam irukku Kazhudhai meikka, murukku irukka norikki thinga, Vaay irukku pallu illa).

:hungry:.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sridharvasudevan (Post 18643) A general note (of mine) to what I see as your (ravi) perception of our traditions in Hindu culture.

There was a time, when I visited a temple far from my home, I used to watch my parents close their eyes and pray before the deity. I then asked them, did you come all the way to close your eyes and not even see the deity within the short time we are here?

Today I look back at those days of my childish ignorance, playfulness, freedom with my parents and curiosity to know more about our traditions.

Later in life being in the midst of good friends, I happened to meet some people who helped me understand the depth and meaning of many of our traditions.

Once, it so happened in a visit to tirumala, I saw people stacking up stones at a site of samadhis near venugopala swami temple. With reverence for that place, I had removed the stones and wiped the place with my hands. Seeing this a devotee from North India, admonished me. When I came back to my home town, I met a teacher of mine. I recalled that incident, in a view that I had done something good and I was looking for support from my teacher. To my surprise, my teacher also admonished me saying, "You have no job disturbing their belief". That was an important lesson for me. While, I can follow my traditions, beliefs and stick to it, I still have no right to disturb the other person's faith. Neither does the other have a right to disturb mine.

So the line is very thin.

"The limit of our freedom ends where it tramples on the freedom of another person".

hariharan1972 03-19-2009 03:29 PM

I think both the debating sides have to recognize some facts

a) Both Tamil and Sanskrit have a rich legacy replete with some of the finest literary works that one could get to read

b) Sanskrit had its hey days and today it is not the popular choice for communication.

c) Bhakthi Literature of the highest quality can be found both in Tamil and Sanskrit and there are really no debating points to be won or lost here.

d) It would be a mistake, in my view, to make this a case of either Tamil or Sanskirt coz both can comfortably co-exist.

e) In this specific case, apart from Agamas, tradition etc the "ego clash" between the Dikshidar and the Othuvar has to be considered.

f) There is nothing which precludes the Othuvar to sing Devaram from the precincts that he desired, so Dikshidar's are certainly walking on thin ice. Traditions which are no longer "central to the belief system" can or rather should be allowed to be altered.

g) Othuvar for his part, can choose the timing which is not inconvenient and does not hamper the darshan of the general public.

The choice of language of worship is best left to the devotee and there should be no diktak either on grounds of tradition or or grounds of ringing in changes.

Chidambaram temple is neither British Royalty or Barack Obama to lie at the extreme. :)


<<About dakshina: I saw this word being used for alms given to a beggar. Is it not biskha? Anyway, giving alms to a begger is a way of seeing ourselves in the other. It is not bribery as someone has written.>> :bolt:

I agree with the statment that giving alms to a beggar is a way of seeing ourselves in the other and it is not bribery as someone has written. However, you are trying to equate Dhakshina with giving alms to beggars. So sad.:boink:

ஈஎனா இ�த்தால் இழி�ந்தான்று; அதான்எதா.ர்,ஈமேயான் என்றில் அதானா�னும் இழி�ந்தான்று;பெக�ள்எனாக் பெக�டுத்தால் உயார்ந்தான்று, அதான்எதா.ர்,பெக�ள்மே$ன் என்றில் அதானா�னும் உயார்ந்தான்று;

:caked:Quote:

Originally Posted by sridharvasudevan (Post 18621) I was going through some of the postings made earlier in this thread and found some amusing discussions and interesting perceptions put forth. In an effort to keep my posting short (attempt), I would not quote too much from the earlier postings.




About dakshina: I saw this word being used for alms given to a beggar. Is it not biskha? Anyway, giving alms to a begger is a way of seeing ourselves in the other. It is not bribery as someone has written. In one instance, years earlier, I had been to Kedarnath. I had been among two groups of sadhus the first day and had the opportunity to provide them some amenities. When I departed, they asked me what I wanted, and I had nothing to ask. Later in the day, I found my chappals had gone missing. The next day morning, one of the sadhus whom I had met the earlier day, help me find it. I was touched by his act. Later that day one of them called me, as I passed him and gave me a panchamukha rudraksha and said he did not have an opportunity to give me anything the previous day. I was very much touched by his act of giving. Later that day one of the sadhus seemed to be following me, a I was a bit annoyed and even suspicious. He said, he wanted me to know Adi Sankara's

samadhi was around the corner. He walked along till that place and then went away. I did not see him again. I was touched by his act. When I was about to leave from Kedarnath, a sadhu, whom I vaguely remember to have seen but not met, kept stalking me. There was still many days to go before I could reach home. I had run out of my budget for charity and so was avoiding him. He finally addressed me in a shy manner in Hindi. "I have been watching you being with many of the sadhus around here. Would you not provide me something I need badly". I reached out for a Rs.10 note. He refused to take. I took out a Rs.20 note. He again refused to take. I was quite in the back foot by now. He said,"All that I need is a begging bowl. Please don't give me money". Every time I think about this incident, it brings tears to my eyes. Such is the resolve of some sadhus, they give us an opportunity to give and they live a life of austerity that would motivate us to follow...some time in life.


Great. But there can be no time, lanugage or place limits for praising gods. :tea:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hariharan1972 (Post 18648) I think both the debating sides have to recognize some facts

a) Both Tamil and Sanskrit have a rich legacy replete with some of the finest literary works that one could get to read

b) Sanskrit had its hey days and today it is not the popular choice for communication.

c) Bhakthi Literature of the highest quality can be found both in Tamil and Sanskrit and there are really no debating points to be won or lost here.

d) It would be a mistake, in my view, to make this a case of either Tamil or Sanskirt coz both can comfortably co-exist.

e) In this specific case, apart from Agamas, tradition etc the "ego clash" between the Dikshidar and the Othuvar has to be considered.

f) There is nothing which precludes the Othuvar to sing Devaram from the precincts that he desired, so Dikshidar's are certainly walking on thin ice. Traditions which are no longer "central to the belief system" can or rather should be allowed to be altered.

g) Othuvar for his part, can choose the timing which is not inconvenient and does not hamper the darshan of the general public.

The choice of language of worship is best left to the devotee and there should be no diktak either on grounds of tradition or or grounds of ringing in changes.

Chidambaram temple is neither British Royalty or Barack Obama to lie at the extreme. :)


Wonder if anyone needs a God at this rate of disagreement...God knows what is God...I'd rather go by popular consensus rather than what is politically prescribed. Let the masses decide how they want it all to be...

s007bala 03-19-2009 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18645) <<All languages are divine and one can express divinity in all languages.>>

Then, Not only Sanskrit but also Tamil is suitable for praising Lord Siva anywhere else in Chidambaram Temple.

All languages means, its inclusive of Tamizh also,isn't it?

Quote:

<<Its the opinion of Kazhagam leaders that Tamizh is older than Sanmskritam and therefore Tamizh should be used.>>

Theny why the false assumption and claims that Sanskrit is the mother of Tamil. Even assuming that Sanskrit was spoken(?), Tamil has co existed along with in it during the period of Satyavrata, who is dravideswara as per vishnupurana/bhagavatha purana. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_(Hinduism)

Kazhagam never had a debate conducted amongst the TN population,instead all they have been doing is,tarnish hinduism.Why then Muslims are allowed to pray in ARABIC in TN,not in TAMIZH.?why christians are allowed to pray in LATIN not in TAMIZH in TN?These Kazhagams are rascals who are bent upon ruining hinduism and these rogues want us to change?who the heck are they,in any case=illiterate filths.

Quote:

<<Now if i had the influence and power,then in chidambaram,i will impose ENGLISH as the language to chant in the 'garbha'sthanam!!!Will it jell with the majority population of Tamizh,NO.>>

Ever if i have the power and influence, not only in chidamabram, elsewhere in South India, i will ban Skt in enchanting and praising Lord and I will direct the people to praise the God in their own language at their wish. If Sanskrit is Deva bhasa (Deva paadai), let the God speak among themselves. except Skt, all languages of India are Maanusha Bhashas [http://tashindu.blogspot.com/], (which ritual gurus claim malafidely as paisacha Bhasas). God shall communicate with the people in their language.

Then ban ARABIC,LATIN also,which you will never have the guts to do so,why?

http://tashindu.blogspot.com/%5D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_(Hinduism)

Quote:

<<There is a established standards by sages & saints to use Samskritam for religious purposes.Now again Tamizh is also used>>

Where it is, when the ritual gurus like pothu Dikshidars are there?. it is not, to be used, but it should be. Middlemen are just brokers.

Ravi

Then you are too,acting like a middleman for TAMIZH as brokers for them KAZHAGAMS,isn't it?:hungry:

sb

s007bala 03-19-2009 08:26 PM

S V

>>I then asked them, did you come all the way to close your eyes and not even see the deity within the short time we are here?<<

This reminds me of an incident which happened in the Kanchi Math when Mahaswamigal was pontificating-i was visiting for the achaaryals darshanam in Kanch math,and prolly it was around noon or so,that we devotees witnessed the Mahaswamigal having his bath again in the afternoon,and after applying his vibhuthi all over the traditional places of his body,soon was in meditative pose.Suddenly,a loudspeaker blared 'allahu akbar' disturbing the serene queitness of the gathered devotees,but the Mahswamigal was oblivious to the loud speakers loud display of worship by the muslims,instead was in total 'dhyaanam'.Some in the crowd got mad and remarked its about time muslims learn to respect privacy of sound and have this arabic version of worship so loudly stopped at least for the sake of Mahaswamigal.But,i was only watching Mahaswamigal with 'ananda kanneer' trickling down my cheeks,for he 'mahaswamigal' taught me a lesson in the bargain the worship of 'nirguna brahman' despite such ditractions being made in his surroundings,after all what were loudly telling in loudspeaker that god is great!!Mahaswamigals eyes were closed during 'dhyanam',this image of mine is still etched firmly in brain cells as memories (memories don't die like people do) :).Just thought to share with you an unique experiance of mine,thnx.

sb


<<Kazhagam never had a debate conducted amongst the TN population,instead all they have been doing is,tarnish hinduism.Why then Muslims are allowed to pray in ARABIC in TN,not in TAMIZH.?why christians are allowed to pray in LATIN not in TAMIZH in TN?These Kazhagams are rascals who are bent upon ruining hinduism and these rogues want us to change?who the heck are they,in any case=illiterate filths.>>

I should claim my share of property from the brother, which is denied and not against neighbor. i should claim for Tamil, first in Hindu Religion, as i am Hindu.

<<Then you are too,acting like a middleman for TAMIZH as brokers for them KAZHAGAMS,isn't it?:hungry:>>

If ritual gurus are middlemen for dhakshinas, me too a middleman for Tamilzh but without dhakshinas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s007bala (Post 18655) All languages means, its inclusive of Tamizh also,isn't it?




sb


<<Kazhagam never had a debate conducted amongst the TN population,instead all they have been doing is,tarnish hinduism.Why then Muslims are allowed to pray in ARABIC in TN,not in TAMIZH.?why christians are allowed to pray in LATIN not in TAMIZH in TN?These Kazhagams are rascals who are bent upon ruining hinduism and these rogues want us to change?who the heck are they,in any case=illiterate filths.>>

First of all Hinduism should treat Tamil well. Then we may claim in other religion. "Thaane Thirudiyaam, Ayalaalai Nambaalaam"

Quote:

Originally Posted by s007bala (Post 18655) All languages means, its inclusive of Tamizh also,isn't it?




sb


Devabhasha Vs Manusha Bhasha [quote]It is clear from the http://tashindu.blogspot.com/ that Goddess Sita and Lord Anjaneya Speak only Tamil and not Sanskrit as per the voice of Valmiki. Therefore Tamil alone the true Devabhasa and is eligible for chanting in Temple (Siva and Vishnu temples). Thats why Vaishnavas are giving importance to Tamil.

Moreover, Sita, the demons that guarded her, and the general public who understood the Ramayana, all of them had their spoken language or mother tongue as Tamil. To confirm this viewpoint, it is better to find out in which language – Samskritha Maanusha Baashai, Samskritha Baashai, or Asamskritha Maanusha Baashai, which one Anjaneya spoke to Sita.

The language different from it, which contained words from other languages, similes and metaphors, was the “vitatha madhura baasha” in poetic style which was “Samskrutham maanusha baasha” (a language refined by the use of grammar).Hence Valmiki who earlier called the language chosen by Hanuman as “ardavadh maanusham vaakyam” (meaningful, spoken Tamizh language) had now called it as “avitatha madhuram vaakyam”.To reiterate this view Valmiki has referred to it in the next Sarga as “madhuram vaakyam” and this has to be examined now.The language different from it, which contained words from other languages, similes and metaphors, was the “vitatha madhura baasha” in poetic style, which was “Samskrutham maanusha baasha” (a language refined by the use of grammar).Hence Valmiki who earlier called the language chosen by Hanuman as “ardavadh maanusham vaakyam” (meaningful, spoken Tamizh language) had now called it as “avitatha madhuram vaakyam”.

CHAPTER 5 – MAANUSHA BAASHAI (The Language of the people) - TAMIZHSlokas 15 to 19 in the 29th sarga of Sundara Kandam, Hanuman thinks about the language in which he should speak to Sita. These slokas are:1. “Antharathvaha maasaadhya raakshashenami hasthitha”

http://tashindu.blogspot.com/

(I have reached this place when the demonesses are taking rest)2. “Sanairachvaasyishyami santhaapa bahu dhamimam”(I will try to pacify her, as she is highly agitated)3. “Ahamthvathithanuchaiva vaanarascha visheshatha”(I am a monkey, which is a small creature, not respected by others)4. “Vaachannodhaa harishyaami maanusheemiva samskruthaam”(If I speak the language spoken by human beings which is full of grammar)5. Yathivaacham praathasyami dwijathiriva samskruthaam(If I spoke Sanskrit, which is spoken by the twice born (dwija – Brahmin)6. Ravanam manyamanaa maam sita bhithaa bhavishyathi(Sita will think that Ravana has come disguised as a monkey)7. Vaanarasya visheshena kathamsyaadhabibhashanam(Thinking that a monkey could not utter a refined language)8. Avachyamabhivakthuvayam maanusham vaakyamardhavath(It is necessary that I should speak in easy to understand language spoken by human beings, which is “Maanusha baashai”)9. Mayachanthvayithum sakyaa(By speaking that language I can console her)10. Naanyatheya maninthitha(If I do not speak in easy-to-understand common man’s language and if I speak in grammatical language spoken by human beings or in Sanskrit, I cannot console her)

Here the languages that Hanuman can speak are explained: they are Maanushivak, Samskruthavak and Maanusham Vaakyam.Vaak and Vaakyam here mean language. Hence Maanushivaak and Maanusham Vaakyam should be taken to mean language spoken by human beings and Samskruthavak is Sanskrit.In the fourth sentence above (Vaachannodhaa harishyaami maanusheemiva samskruthaam) “Maanusha baashai” is referred and it means a well made out language spoken by human beings.In the fifth sentence (Yathivaacham praathasyami dwijathiriva samskruthaam) Sanskrit, which is the language spoken by celestial beings, which is grammatically correct and pleasing to the ears, is referred.In the eighth sentence two words “maanusham” and “vaakyam” are mentioned, which come under the special category of “Aradhavadh”, which means the meaningful language.As there is no other language, which has no meaning, why “maanusha baasha” alone is referred to as meaningful is, because each word in it is full of meaning and the words are well constructed.The “maanusha baashai” referred to in the fourth sentence has not been given the qualification of “Aradhavadh”. Because it will be poetic and can be understood only by litterateurs. The qualification of “Samskrutham” given to it is not given to the “maanusha baashai” referred to in the eighth sentence.Hence the “maanusha baashai” referred to in the fourth sentence is grammatical and it is not meaningful. But the language referred to in the eighth sentence is meaningful, but not grammatical.Hence the “maanusha baashai” referred to in the fourth sentence is discarded by Hanuman, who decided to speak in the “maanusha baashai” referred to in the eighth sentence.Hence it could be made out that there were two “maanusha baashais”. Out of them the first, which was grammatical and full of metaphors, similes and other qualities, could be understood only by learned men and its style will be poetic.The latter one could be understood by all – the learned as well as illiterate – and it will consist of beautiful sentences. Its grammar may not be correct.Hence “maanusha baashai” was in two forms – the first one consisting of grammatically correct words and sentences which will be poetic in nature and cannot be easily understood and the second one whose grammar may be imperfect, but its meaning can be easily understood as spoken language is understood.In the words “maanusha baashai”, it is given to understand that it belonged to human beings. The language belonging to common man can also be called as “swabashai”. Hence it means that Sanskrit is not their “swabashai”. As “maanusha baashai” is known by two kinds, Sanskrit is not divided into any groups. Hence it could be said that Sanskrit was not a spoken language but literary language and the language of scriptures. It was understood only by learned men.

Now it must be found out which “maanusha baashai” was chosen by Hanuman to converse with Sita.The commentator says that it must be the language, which was spoken in the Kosala country. This is true. But the commentator does not give the name of that language and it needs to be researched here.

RESEARCH NO.1

1. What could be the language which was not imported from outside; but it was grammatically perfect; was derived from the language of the celestials, Sanskrit ; was the own language of common man (Swabashai).2. The language that had two kinds and was referred to by Agasthyar and Tholkappiyar who came to the South from North during the Ramayana period, established Tamil Sangams and took part in their proceedings by giving their works and was perfect in grammar was Tamil language3. It was a derivative of ‘Vadamozhi’, the language of North or Sanskrit and was called as “Thenmozhi’, the language of the South.4. It was the spoken language.

The fourth sentence in the Ramayana sloka, “maanusheemiva samskrutham” means poetic Tamil language, by the eighth sentence “maanusham vaakyamardhavath”, it is said the Tamil language which the common man’s language.We can examine it in another way.

RESEARCH NO. 2

By calling the language as “maanusha baashai”, it is meant that it has been derived by Sanskrit, the language of celestials. Sanskrit also has much in common with Tamil. Both are like the east and west and are two different forms. There is no third form, which is different from them. As they are two branches of the same language, one branch – Vadamozhi or Sanskrit and the language of the celestials are the same. The languages of the south and “maanusha baashai” which are its different forms are also the same.

RESEARCH NO. 3

This fact can be examined in the third different way. Different meanings are given for the word Tamizh. One is “Tammozhi” (our language) became Tamil. Another is it means the sweet language.Why the language of human beings was called as Tamizh? Because people who spoke a language wanted to give it a name, they must have had another set of people who spoke a different language. It was Sanskrit or the language of the celestials. When one spoke in Sanskrit, one who could not understood it, could have asked the former to convey it in his own language (swabashai). Hence the language of the common man became “Tammozhi”, which is the same as “maanusha baashai”. Both have the same meaning.How “Tammozhi” became Tamizh? The word Tammavar later became tamavar, losing one “m”. Like that “maanushar” or “maanudar” became “manidar”. Like that Tammozhi became Tamuzhi, Tamizhi and finally Tamizh.In Tammozhi whom does the word ‘Tam’ refer to? It refers to the people (maanusha) who spoke that language. Hence Tammozhi is the derivative of the Sanskrit word, “maanusha baashai”. Tammozhi, Tamizh and Swabashai are all the same.Hence it could be firmly said that the language chosen by Hanuman to converse with Sita was Tamizh.That Tamizh was divided into two kinds earlier – Samskrutha maanusha baashai and Ardhavath maanusha baashai or the meaningful language. The former is the grammatically perfect Tamil language. It may not be sweet and meaningful but it will be grammatically perfect. This can be said to be the language used by Tamil poets. It was full of similes and other qualities.The other was the meaningful language, which did not lay much stress on grammar. It may be poetic. It was the spoken language and not grammatically perfect. For example, two eye (not eyes) became reddish. Though it is grammatically wrong, it was accepted as it conveyed the meaning.

Of these two Tamil styles, the language chosen by Hanuman to converse with Sita was the latter. But Valmiki has not directly mentioned the language chosen by Hanuman. Let us examine what he says in his own words.


CHAPTER 6 – “AVITATA MADHURAM”, THE REAL TAMIL LANGUAGE

It was established in the earlier chapter that the language that Hanuman chose to converse with Sita was the sweet Tamizh language or “Senthamizh mozhi”.That language of human beings is also referred to by Sage Valmiki as “Senthamizh mozhi”.In the 30th sarga of Sundara Kandam, the last sloka confirms this fact. It is as follows:Ithi saba huvidham mahanubavoJagathipathey pramada mavekshanaa:Madhuram avitatham jagatha vaakyamThrumavidapaantharam Aasthitho HanumanIts meaning:Mahanubavo Hanuman – That great soul known as HanumanThrumavidapaantharam Aasthitho – Sitting on the branch of a treeJagathipathey pramada mavekshanaa: - Looking at the consort of Rama, the LokanayakaAvitatam – As it is (the language as spoken by human beings and not taking the poetic form)Madhuram Vaakyam – the sweet Tamizh languageBahuvitham – In pure, clear, short, pleasing to the ears and full of meaningJagatha – spokeThe word “vaakyam” here, which is singular, refers to the language; otherwise we will have to say that Hanuman spoke a single word – the subject without any predicate or verb. As Hanuman did not speak a single word but many words and sentences, the word “vaakyam”, here only refers to the language.That language has been given the adjective of “madhuram” or sweetness. Hence one can say that it is a sweet language.The word ‘madhuram’ is an alternative of the word “Tamizh”. The language of the south, which is “Tamizh”, is known to the world as sweet language. As the word “zha” is not found in Sanskrit, Valmiki could not refer to the language spoken by Hanuman as Tamizh and has referred to it by its alternative name “Madhuram vaakyam”. Some may ask the question if it is Valmiki’s view to refer to Tamizh, he could have used “Dravidam”. But the word “madhuram” means sweet language, which is the alternative of the word Tamizh, which also means sweet language. Moreover Tamizh was not known as “Dravidam” in Valmiki’s days.Hence the sentence “madhuram vaakyam jagadaha” should be taken to mean that Hanuman spoke Tamizh language.The word “madhuram” is given the attribute “Avitatham”. It means that it is the opposite of “vitatham” which means that it is not so, but a different one. Hence Tamizh, which was spoken as it is and not in a poetic form was given the attribute of “vitatham. It is an adjective of Tamizh or the sweet language.Hence the sentence “Avithathham madhuram vaakyam jagadaha” should be taken to mean that he spoke Tamil language, which was as it was.The word “vitatham” here means an artificial language. Hence the sentence “Avitatham madhuram vaakyam jagadaha” should not be taken to mean that he spoke a single real sentence. Hence it should be taken to mean that Hanuman spoke Tamil language, which was real and natural.As “avitatham” here is the adjective of Tamizh, the sweet language, it was different from vitatham, which meant the language different from the spoken one, containing similes, metaphors etc. The meaningful Tamil language was called as “ardavadh maanusha baashai”.The language different from it, which contained words from other languages, similes and metaphors was the “vitatha madhura baasha” in poetic style which was “Samskrutham maanusha baasha” (a language refined by the use of grammar).Hence Valmiki who earlier called the language chosen by Hanuman as “ardavadh maanusham vaakyam” (meaningful, spoken Tamizh language) had now called it as “avitatha

madhuram vaakyam”.

s007bala 03-20-2009 10:01 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18750) <<Kazhagam never had a debate conducted amongst the TN population,instead all they have been doing is,tarnish hinduism.Why then Muslims are allowed to pray in ARABIC in TN,not in TAMIZH.?why christians are allowed to pray in LATIN not in TAMIZH in TN?These Kazhagams are rascals who are bent upon ruining hinduism and these rogues want us to change?who the heck are they,in any case=illiterate filths.>>

I should claim my share of property from the brother, which is denied and not against neighbor. i should claim for Tamil, first in Hindu Religion, as i am Hindu.

<<Then you are too,acting like a middleman for TAMIZH as brokers for them KAZHAGAMS,isn't it?:hungry:>>

If ritual gurus are middlemen for dhakshinas, me too a middleman for Tamilzh but without dhakshinas.

You are a hindu,hmmmmm..:hand: then first thing you would do is to respect brahmin,kshatriya,vaishya,shudras..on the contrary you sound like British Christians who divided India!!:amen:

Between God & an individual,whoever comes in between,is automatically a middleman,including atheists like kazhagam:tongue1:

sb

s007bala 03-20-2009 10:07 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18753) <<Kazhagam never had a debate conducted amongst the TN population,instead all they have been doing is,tarnish hinduism.Why then Muslims are allowed to pray in ARABIC in TN,not in TAMIZH.?why christians are allowed to pray in LATIN not in TAMIZH in TN?These Kazhagams are rascals who are bent upon ruining hinduism and these rogues want us to change?who the heck are they,in any case=illiterate filths.>>

First of all Hinduism should treat Tamil well. Then we may claim in other religion. "Thaane Thirudiyaam, Ayalaalai Nambaalaam"

You speak like non-hindu or rather write like a non-hindu.Tamizh has its own place where it should be,and definitely does not need people like you to portray its greatness,thank you!:amen:Thirudanukku thaan theriyum thirutta patri,enrum ninaitthu kollalamay?( ¾¢Õ¼ÛìÌ ¾¡ý ¦¾¡¢Ôõ ¾¢Õð¼ ÀüÈ¢,±ýÕõ ¿¢¨ÉðÐ ¦¸¡øÄÄ¡¨Á?)sb:cell:

malgova.mango 03-25-2009 03:58 PM

ravi!

How many temples are run by govt? how effieciently they are run? How many properties of temples are genuniely transferred for the welfare of temple and their staffs?

A temple is for the society right , how many yagams are preformed ? how many temples are in neglected state. ? how many artistes are honoured? Do you know temple wells are now leased for fishing? fishing is killing living things - does this need to happen in temple ponds. is this what you call anbe shivam.

Do you know what is the corruption level in India? Do you know how many issues that demands urgent attention are in a state of neglect? Do you know how do we score in Road accidents?Do you know we are 3rd world country - meaning development didn't take place like other countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc...Do you know how many people migrate to escape poverty as workers to other countries like dubai , singapore etc...Do you know what's happening to the Law and Order of our country..Do you know how much black money gets deposited in other countries from India?

You please get to know this, the repair works for the gopurams of chidambaram temple and conscreation are done by Diskshitars only. Government didn't fund. After Raja manyams which happened centuries before day to day care is attended by Dikshitars only. It is recorded at times of extreme poverty they sold their wealth like jewels, lands etc .. to run day to day operations.

Day to day operation for running a temple of this size is beyond you imagination my dear - Since the GOD is Nataraja - Yagyas and distribution of wealth to be performed fitting to the King.

It is easy to ridicule other, difficult to appreciate what they did.

Please know it is not Brahmins who designed the society .

palindrome 03-25-2009 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 18959) ravi!

How many temples are run by govt? how effieciently they are run? How many properties of temples are genuniely transferred for the welfare of temple and their staffs?

A temple is for the society right , how many yagams are preformed ? how many temples are in neglected state. ? how many artistes are honoured? Do you know temple wells are now leased for fishing? fishing is killing living things - does this need to happen in temple ponds. is this what you call anbe shivam.

Do you know what is the corruption level in India? Do you know how many issues that demands urgent attention are in a state of neglect? Do you know how do we score in Road accidents?Do you know we are 3rd world country - meaning development didn't take place like other countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc...Do you know how many people migrate to escape poverty as workers to other countries like dubai , singapore etc...Do you know what's happening to the Law and Order of our country..Do you know how much black money gets deposited in other countries from India?

You please get to know this, the repair works for the gopurams of chidambaram temple and conscreation are done by Diskshitars only. Government didn't fund. After Raja manyams which happened centuries before day to day care is attended by Dikshitars only. It is recorded at times of extreme poverty they sold their wealth like jewels, lands etc .. to run day to day operations.

Day to day operation for running a temple of this size is beyond you imagination my dear - Since the GOD is Nataraja - Yagyas and distribution of wealth to be performed fitting to the King.

It is easy to ridicule other, difficult to appreciate what they did.

Please know it is not Brahmins who designed the society .

Brahmins were writing laws when there was kings like Manu for each yuga.

Then Manus stopped happening. No monarchy. No feudalism. Only freedom. Only democracy.

Democracy is every body's birth right.

Corruption in the society only reflects corruption in our soul, greed in our heart and idiocy in our head. What we see outside is a reflection of what we are inside, atleast in some part.


Ravi-vararo,

Love for mother tongue is part of one's nature. Love for God is part of one's nature. It is natural to pray to God, talk to God in one's own mother tongue. Therefore, I agree with you about prayers being offered in Tamil. I know only about 10 lines of thirupallandu. That itself is so thrilling to me. I can imagine what one can feel for a whole genre of Tamil devotional literature.

At the same time, please spare a thought for those who wish prayers to be performed in Sanskrit. Sanskrit is father tongue and Tamil is mother tongue for Tamil brahmins. For Tamil

non-brahmins, Sanskrit is mother tongue and Tamil is father tongue. Tamilians currently do not have any affinity for Sanskrit because of wrongly protrayed political history. Certainly Tamil and Sanskrit can co-exist as husband and wife peacefully. They always had, in the past. Only the sense of belonging has to be remainded back to them.


Thank you for your deposition and affidavit on mother tongue and father tongue etc. now we will find out mother in law tongue, father in law tongue, brother tongue, sister tongue etc.

I am aware of transformation but not transposition. Amusing.

Regards,

Ravi

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome (Post 18965) Ravi-vararo,

Love for mother tongue is part of one's nature. Love for God is part of one's nature. It is natural to pray to God, talk to God in one's own mother tongue. Therefore, I agree with you about prayers being offered in Tamil. I know only about 10 lines of thirupallandu. That itself is so thrilling to me. I can imagine what one can feel for a whole genre of Tamil devotional literature.

At the same time, please spare a thought for those who wish prayers to be performed in Sanskrit. Sanskrit is father tongue and Tamil is mother tongue for Tamil brahmins. For Tamil non-brahmins, Sanskrit is mother tongue and Tamil is father tongue. Tamilians currently do not have any affinity for Sanskrit because of wrongly protrayed political history. Certainly Tamil and Sanskrit can co-exist as husband and wife peacefully. They always had, in the past. Only the sense of belonging has to be remainded back to them.


ravi!

temple is not built to please bhaktas, - please don't see temple as a place like a commercial center , where customer service is the central focus.

temple is abode of GODS and the main purpose is to please GOD .


ravi

do you recognise - the society is not designed by brahmins. brahmins just take the precept and informs the what is the precept is all about.


palindrome!

please read kamakoti.org on the role of brahmanas, the precept is not their work, their duty stops at imparting and spreading what is the precept all about.

Manu's or in any others time Brahmanas didn't write any thing of their own to mis-guide public for their own gain.

This is a very serious charge without any basis.

palindrome 03-26-2009 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 18980) palindrome!

please read kamakoti.org on the role of brahmanas, the precept is not their work, their duty stops at imparting and spreading what is the precept all about.

Manu's or in any others time Brahmanas didn't write any thing of their own to mis-guide public for their own gain.

This is a very serious charge without any basis.

Manus were kings. Kings got laws written. Agreed brahmins did not write anything on their own then.

And who made the interpolations? Search, ask, send emails to indologists, read journals, talk to sanyasis of various traditions - and you will know.

I know it is a very serious charge.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 18966) Thank you for your deposition and affidavit on mother tongue and father tongue etc. now we will find out mother in law tongue, father in law tongue, brother tongue, sister tongue etc.

I am aware of transformation but not transposition. Amusing.

Regards,

Ravi

Abt Tamil or Sanskrit being the mother or father tongue, was mentioning that coz in brahmin communities men are indo-european in origin and women are asian in origin. But in non-brahmin warring communities such as dhangars, women are indo-european or eurasian in origin and men are asian in origin. Before the arrival of the indo-european speakers, speakers of dravidian linguistic group were widespread all across the indian land mass. And I was genralizing by using tamil for dravidian and sanskrit for indo-european. Over time, those that got classed as brahmins came from a wide section of people. One example is that of a dhangar derived community of the west coast that established a mutt as late as the colonial times and became classed as brahmins, because they were following a few brahmanical practices. In that community, more women are indo-european in origin and more men are asian in origin. Another example is a kamma or kamme derived smartha community in karnataka (kannada and telugu speakers were rarely different from one another). And I had extended the concept as sanskrit for mother tongue and tamil for father tongue based on some individuals of tamil speaking communities. Reg brother tongue and sister tongue, verily all language groups are related indeed.

Thankyou.

malgova.mango 03-26-2009 08:41 AM

palindrome!

if you don't know the fundamentals - please you do the research from traditional scholars - not a western trained one.

Your assumptions are half-baked ... For Kali Yuga - Yagyavalkya Smriti is the valid, Manu Smiriti is not for Kali-Yuga.

Kings would have assigned Brahmins to write the laws - But Brahmins didn't write anything from their own whims and fancies. they only elaborated the Yagyavalkya-Smriti.

Smritis followed Shrutis - please read Kavi Kalidasa's quote on Smiritis in kamakoti.org

the role of shudra is not invented by brahmins, nor the role of Kshatriya or Vysya.

If brahmins designed the society - then they would don the role of King and not as a sub-ordinate to a King - please mind that, because it is very much in their self-interest.


MM,

1) <<if you don't know the fundamentals - please you do the research from traditional scholars - not a western trained one>>

I prefer to refer to all sources.

2) <<Your assumptions are half-baked ... For Kali Yuga - Yagyavalkya Smriti is the valid, Manu Smiriti is not for Kali-Yuga>>

According to some traditions katyayana smirthi is to be followed for kali yuga and according

to some other traditions parashara smrithi is to be followed for kali yuga. there has also been a manu for this kali yuga, therefore according to some, manu smrithi is also valid for kali yuga.

3) <<Kings would have assigned Brahmins to write the laws - But Brahmins didn't write anything from their own whims and fancies. they only elaborated the Yagyavalkya-Smriti.>>

Very true.

4) <<Smritis followed Shrutis - please read Kavi Kalidasa's quote on Smiritis in kamakoti.org>>

Everyone knows smrithis came after shrutis.

5) <<the role of shudra is not invented by brahmins, nor the role of Kshatriya or Vysya>>

True again. Nobody invented anybody's role.

6) <<If brahmins designed the society - then they would don the role of King and not as a sub-ordinate to a King - please mind that, because it is very much in their self-interest>>.

In those days anybody could become a king. The only way to remain a king was to meddle with venerated scriptures. Brahmins might have done as instructed to them by the warrior classes. This is what is understood by westerners now.

However, Indians beleive nothing in the Manu smrithi was interpolated. The whole scripture has a metaphoric meaning which can be understood only by learning from a guru. I prefer the Indian version.


This is democratic country. we could not force anybody to do his job in a particular manner. Palindrome has every right to do his work

s007bala 03-26-2009 05:38 PM

palindrome

my 2 cents.

Quote:

>>In those days anybody could become a king. The only way to remain a king was to meddle with venerated scriptures. Brahmins might have done as instructed to them by the warrior classes. This is what is understood by westerners now.

However, Indians beleive nothing in the Manu smrithi was interpolated. The whole scripture has a metaphoric meaning which can be understood only by learning from a guru. I prefer the Indian version. <<

Western scholar's are as competent as Indian scholar's.But i am prejudiced with Indian scholar's to some extent only.I rely on our kula gurus or samparadaya gurus only,as final authority.As a 'guru' is remover of tamas.If an Indian scholar were to interpret the Judaism scrptures,or christian scriptures or islamic scriptures=i have no idea as to how jews,christians,islamics will react???

sb


it is right to research from the tradition scholars, so that we could explore and find out the nadi moolam and rishi moolam of rakshasa like Ravana, Rishis, kings. Thereafter the Indian History has to be redefined and rewrited. not only Palindrome, but everybody has to research it honestly. We could disclose/find out the true lies.

In Kaliyuga, not only yajnavalkya but also manusmrithi are not valid, since Indian constitution and Protection of Civil Rights Act are the supreme laws. come out to reality from utopian world. The period is available only in dream:puke:

Quote:


if you don't know the fundamentals - please you do the research from traditional scholars - not a western trained one.

Your assumptions are half-baked ... For Kali Yuga - Yagyavalkya Smriti is the valid, Manu Smiriti is not for Kali-Yuga.

Kings would have assigned Brahmins to write the laws - But Brahmins didn't write anything from their own whims and fancies. they only elaborated the Yagyavalkya-Smriti.

Smritis followed Shrutis - please read Kavi Kalidasa's quote on Smiritis in kamakoti.org

the role of shudra is not invented by brahmins, nor the role of Kshatriya or Vysya.

If brahmins designed the society - then they would don the role of King and not as a sub-ordinate to a King - please mind that, because it is very much in their self-interest.


Quote:

Originally Posted by s007bala (Post 19018) palindrome

my 2 cents.


sb

The gurus need not always be the final authority. You too can write a smrithi. All thoughts that exists in nature are apauresheya indeed. Just because you write it down does not mean that it becomes your authorship.

The sages were like that. They had absorbed themselves in the divine. They harnessed sounds, syllables, words, sentences from nature and ascribed that to the divine one within them, not to their outer body identified by a name and such temporary mundane things. It is possible for a guru who has not reached this stage to make a mistake in the interpretation process.

Same goes for westerers. That is why I agree that they botched up interpretation of hindu scriptures. Neither did they know to seperate words into syllables, nor associate sound with the many meanings it can convey nor know what was being conveyed metaphorically.


Western scholars are not competent to decide it. Indian vigilant common man is competant and he can really give interpretation for the Vedas and puranas. Thereafter the supremacy claims and superiority complex will become nullity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s007bala (Post 19018) palindrome

my 2 cents.


sb

s007bala 03-26-2009 06:08 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome (Post 19022) The gurus need not always be the final authority. You too can write a smrithi. All thoughts that exists in nature are apauresheya indeed. Just because you write it down does not mean that it becomes your authorship.

The sages were like that. They had absorbed themselves in the divine. They harnessed sounds, syllables, words, sentences from nature and ascribed that to the divine one within them, not to their outer body identified by a name and such temporary mundane things. It is possible for a guru who has not reached this stage to make a mistake in the interpretation process.

Same goes for westerers. That is why I agree that they botched up interpretation of hindu scriptures. Neither did they know to seperate words into syllables, nor associate sound with the many meanings it can convey nor know what was being conveyed metaphorically.

palindrome

quiet right what you write.thnx.

sb

s007bala 03-26-2009 06:13 PM

re

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 19023) Western scholars are not competent to decide it. Indian vigilant common man is competant and he can really give interpretation for the Vedas and puranas. Thereafter the supremacy claims and superiority complex will become nullity.

ravi vararo

vanga sir :) i dunno about indian common man being competent enuff to wite smrithis about vedas and puranas,but if you say so,i will try to go along with you,in the spirit of anything is possiblle in this world.Though i cannot understand your last statement?All i know TN Govt of various Kazhagams are screwing hindus and in particular jathi brahmins,and slowly TN will ecome an Abrahamic Faith state,which is also part of Sanathana Dharma only...hmmm

sb


ravi!

you didn't answer my question.

I asked - did you recognize Brahmins didn't design the society . Since you are not an athiest and you are a Bhakta - I'm asking this question.

Please answer .


palindrome!

Are you saying that with the collusion of Kings - Brahmins cooked up some stories?or you just posit the views of Western guys.

If you are , then please be reminded - that they gained everything from divide and rule. So they can say anything from their mind.

Do you have any strong research paper to suggest it is a mere cooking?

Because it is not impossible to cook Vedas , and the Smritis are insights gained to Rishis ...

So now I ask you a direct question - The role of Shudras , is that a cooked up thing born out of HUMAN mind

This is a very serious question. Please anwer me carefully -


Not anyone can write Smritis my dear palindrome.

I'm aghast with the callousness by which the subject is handled.

Ishvaro Rakshatu


Quote:


Are you saying that with the collusion of Kings - Brahmins cooked up some stories?or you just posit the views of Western guys.

If you are , then please be reminded - that they gained everything from divide and rule. So they can say anything from their mind.

Do you have any strong research paper to suggest it is a mere cooking?

Because it is not impossible to cook Vedas , and the Smritis are insights gained to Rishis ...

So now I ask you a direct question - The role of Shudras , is that a cooked up thing born out of HUMAN mind

This is a very serious question. Please anwer me carefully -

i do not know why you are haranguing about this.

i already made it clear there are 2 versions and i prefer the indian version.

i too have started writing a few sentences in sanskrit. when put together after a bit of grammer correction, they can be passed off for a 2-line poem. If you have proper understanding of sanskrit ofcourse you will know how to differentiate between a shoddy work such as my ridiculous 2-liners and that of other works. But what if a monk had about the same level of understanding as i have. Should i take his interpretation for granted, just because he was a monk and wrote about it. And seers (not monks) have generally produced limited written work. They prefer to be listened to.

Reg the role of shudras, it wud help you immensely if you were to listen to sages of various traditions. Varna has never been decided by birth into a particular occupation. And that is what all seers of all sampradayas are saying except a handful. Go figure why.

And I am not inclined to drag this discussion further. Thank you.


palindrome ji!

anything written in sanskrit is not smriti.

detailed explanation of how smritis came to us is explained by Mahaswamigal in kamakoti.org

On your pneutlimate para - the importance of Jathi in Varna system is also detaile in the other thread " How Varna system ..." in this forum - please read that.

btw - the seer of kanchi, seers of iyengar traditions all didn't see that way ....

someone wrote on Lord Parashuram as a brahmana doing Kshatriya's work - this is also wrong Lord creates the ORDER , would he go against it? - Careless study.

LORD Parashurama by birth is a Kshatriya , but bought up as Brahmana - Like a Lion raised by Lambs, he behaved as a brahmana until a set of events triggered his birth instincts.

Whereas Sage Vishwamitra is brahmana by Birth, but raised as Kshatriya . See he too upon certain age behaved like kshatriya until a set of events triggered his birth instincts.

Both there mother were sisters.... The source is from Shiva Puranam. And the no.of slokas transmitted for Shiva Puranam , the no. of words are recorded. No one can add a word or remove a word from that.

There is a line , a factor on birth - you can't run away with that or bury it in a blanket.


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Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19046) palindrome ji!LORD Parashurama by birth is a Kshatriya , but bought up as Brahmana - Like a Lion raised by Lambs, he behaved as a brahmana until a set of events triggered his birth instincts.

MM, My friend.

You are questioning the very antecedants of many Brahmin Gotras by saying Bhargava ( Parasurama) was a Kshatriya by birth. Was Jamadagni his father a Kshatriya? These are our Gotra Pravara rishis. Was Dronacharya a Kshatriya?

And we are talking about an accepted avatara of Vishnu.

There is a sub sect by name Bhargavas in U.P who will sue you for this ;) as they consider themselves the most orthodox of all the Brahmins in India.

It is not that the Brahmins were doing Ksahtriya's work. The Bhrigu clan was the fighting arm of the Brahmins. The Brahmins had their own in the eaeliest times and were not dependent on the Kshatriyas. There are a lot of theories and speculations about about this.

This shows how little we know of our Rishis.

Please read the novel Parashurama by K.M. Munshi. It gives a lot of details about Parashurama.

I am not into any discussion. Just thought I would add my comments about my principal Pravara Rishi.


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19046)












palindrome ji!

anything written in sanskrit is not smriti.

detailed explanation of how smritis came to us is explained by Mahaswamigal in kamakoti.org

On your pneutlimate para - the importance of Jathi in Varna system is also detaile in the other thread " How Varna system ..." in this forum - please read that.

btw - the seer of kanchi, seers of iyengar traditions all didn't see that way ....

someone wrote on Lord Parashuram as a brahmana doing Kshatriya's work - this is also wrong Lord creates the ORDER , would he go against it? - Careless study.

LORD Parashurama by birth is a Kshatriya , but bought up as Brahmana - Like a Lion raised by Lambs, he behaved as a brahmana until a set of events triggered his birth instincts.

Whereas Sage Vishwamitra is brahmana by Birth, but raised as Kshatriya . See he too upon certain age behaved like kshatriya until a set of events triggered his birth instincts.

Both there mother were sisters.... The source is from Shiva Puranam. And the no.of slokas transmitted for Shiva Puranam , the no. of words are recorded. No one can add a word or remove a word from that.

There is a line , a factor on birth - you can't run away with that or bury it in a blanket.

i do not wish to comment upon what a handful of brahmanical mutts are propagating.

neither Vishwamitra nor Agastya was either brahmin or kshatirya by birth. Both became a brahman by their tapas. So does anyone who chooses to become a brahmachari initiate to this day.

Go ask any of the hundreds of monastic traditions, their answers will all be the same, except for those of brahmanical mutts. i already told you to go figure why the ones who speak of varna being applied to occupations are doing so. They started doing it less than 300 years ago. Enough documentation is available on how the british decided who was which varna. Details of groups who passed themselves off as brahmin in the northern parts of india wud prove embarassing if they were to be talked about now.

a moniker is used to drop hints so that you yourself can look up and read material from various sources on the points of discord. And if some people like me were to choose to openly talk about the falsehood of Parashurama stories propagated by a few so called brahmins to serve their cause, don't blame us (or the people) if any retaliatory harunguing comes from the dalit section. Nobody wishes to do that. So, please do not describe purana stories to me.

And by the way, i am not saying the Shiva Purana is wrong. It is correct. But there are communities that have (ab)used it. Ok now leave it.


nacchi!

I've quoted the source of this knowledge. If you are not comfortable with Puranas and itihasas that's your problem. What can I say?

I place my faith in Puranas - For me Shruti,Smriti and Puranas are the only scriptural reference and the oral transmission effectively came to press without any loss in shlokas or words. Thanks to the ingenious methods devised by the sages for their posterity.

regards


Jamadagnni only reared HIM , Like Rama , HE also came from a Yagnya


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19057) Jamadagnni only reared HIM , Like Rama , HE also came from a Yagnya

so people can jump out of fire? nice. and i suppose babies can be found in yagya pits also? and when you answer, please leave avataras out of it. please talk about the seers and sages only.

just curious - do you beleive you came from the head of the purusha?


If I leave avatars, puranas, smritis , faith of what is said in puranas... i think there is nothing to talk ... my dear

sages and seer talks about the above things only....


in fact you and i came from kamaagni - do you doubt that?


so nacchi - Jamadaggni dons the similar role like Dasaratha, albiet with one catch.


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19063) in fact you and i came from kamaagni - do you doubt that?

when a person is conceived and born from kaamagni, he is a manushya gana.

when a person is conceived and born without kaamagni, it is a qualified soul. lack of kaamagni is shudha agni, it is a yagya.

sages and seers are conceived without kaamagni as qualified souls.

but hope you are not considering lack of kammagni as the same as a seer being born from an actual yagya pit.

hope now you can see how interpretation can be?


adichu vidu vathyare..

Vishayam ennanna - Yagya prarthanai is one asks for kshatriya seed and another brahmana seed. The prasadam in the form of payasam is delivered in 2 dhonnais with the instruction which sister has to take what. But it get transferred and so the wife of brahmin conceived a Kshatriya seed and vice versa.

The Kshatriya thus born is Lord Parasuhrama, The Brahmana - Vishwamitra.

Now how are you going to interpret...


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19072) adichu vidu vathyare..

Vishayam ennanna - Yagya prarthanai is one asks for kshatriya seed and another brahmana seed. The prasadam in the form of payasam is delivered in 2 dhonnais with the instruction which sister has to take what. But it get transferred and so the wife of brahmin conceived a Kshatriya seed and vice versa.

The Kshatriya thus born is Lord Parasuhrama, The Brahmana - Vishwamitra.

Now how are you going to interpret...

Do people get pregnant with payasam?

To this day people go to the Garbha Rakshambikai Koil near Kumbakonam and eat the prasadam. Are they getting pregnant only because of the prasadam ? :tape:

And yes, as mentioned by you above, a qualified soul can be born anywhere. It just means that varna or vasanas are by birth but is irrespective of the occupation group. Anyone can wish to follow the brahmacharyam path. What would call a sage like

Vivekanada and Amritanandamayi?


umakku nambikkai ellena vidum oi...

antha kallthu manushalloda prarthana valimai.

eppadi sappitannu sollallale....

enna testube kallam vanthiduchhu, eppa kooda romba viallakkama sollanuma..

vayai pothhikkalamm ana buddhi'i open pannavum


avan avan karma vasanai - avan avan pirrappa kodukkuthu... avanai poi, brahmacharyam, sanyasam, gyanamnnu confuse panna koodathungannum , kamathilla naatam ullavana poi sanyasi agu nnu athallam seria varathu.


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19074) unakku nambikkai ellena vidu...

antha kallthu manushalloda prarthana valimai.

eppadi sappitannu sollallale....

enna testube kallam vanthiduchhu, eppa kooda romba viallakkama sollanuma..

vayai pothhikkalamm ana buddhi open pannavum

indha vishayam nambikai patri illai.

piraipu ippadi thaan irukkanum solradhu oru misinterpretation aavum irrukalam.

payasam saptu eppadi garbham aaka mudiyum ?

yes, testtube is possible. Infact some say brahma was collecting his seed in pots to experiment, agastya and vashishta were test tube babies and kauravas all looked same as duryodhana since they were clones reared in pots.

pirraipu ippadium irukalam anru solradhu oru unmai. truth is of various forms.


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19075) avan avan karma vasanai - avan avan pirrappa kodukkuthu... avanai poi, brahmacharyam, sanyasam, gyanamnnu confuse panna koodathungannum , kamathilla naatam ullavana poi sanyasi agu nnu athallam seria varathu.

ennaku yenda confusion illai.


3rd line'a konjam sinthikkavum.

how they eat the payasam is not explained - but one can infer easily - you got it?


Ravi!

you came as a storm , why silent now?


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19078) 3rd line'a konjam sinthikkavum.

how they eat the payasam is not explained - but one can infer easily - you got it?

how they eat the payasam? please explain.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacchinarkiniyan (Post 19053) MM, My friend.

You are questioning the very antecedants of many Brahmin Gotras by saying Bhargava ( Parasurama) was a Kshatriya by birth. Was Jamadagni his father a Kshatriya? These are our Gotra Pravara rishis. Was Dronacharya a Kshatriya?

And we are talking about an accepted avatara of Vishnu.

There is a sub sect by name Bhargavas in U.P who will sue you for this ;) as they consider

themselves the most orthodox of all the Brahmins in India.

It is not that the Brahmins were doing Ksahtriya's work. The Bhrigu clan was the fighting arm of the Brahmins. The Brahmins had their own in the eaeliest times and were not dependent on the Kshatriyas. There are a lot of theories and speculations about about this.

This shows how little we know of our Rishis.

Please read the novel Parashurama by K.M. Munshi. It gives a lot of details about Parashurama.

I am not into any discussion. Just thought I would add my comments about my principal Pravara Rishi.

Some monastic traditions have interpreted it this way:

Parashurama was not from any fighting arm of the brahmins. The vedic brahmins practiced non-possesivenes, non-accumulation, non-violence, and so on.

They call the vedic period togehter with its inter-tribal fights as a different yuga. Parashurama at that time killed only the corrupt kings and installed the pious sons of the slain kings as heirs. The idea that he wiped out all warriors and gave land to brahmins are recent inclusions to an existing story. Too many details would be unnecessary.

They also say that nobody is from outside. All are local indians (ofcourse the boundries of ancient india included pakistan, afghanisthan, small parts of iran and central asian regions). It is within these indians that new occupation groups, lineages and new social systems were formed, dissolved and formed again.

Brahmins were known to have thrown out children if they did not study well or fell into anti social ways. Same goes for warriors who got defeated. It was also in this way the population of brahmins decreased and that of others increased. New groups were created both occupations wise as well as socially (there was no fifth class until then). Some warrior descendents later claimed to be brahmins. Vice versa also happened, since some brahmin descendents claimed to be warriors. Thus came the idea that brahmins always had a fighting faction even in ancient or vedic times. Irrespective of present caste, every indian perhaps has a bit of all the older castes in him (??).


Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome (Post 19081) how they eat the payasam? please explain.

athukellam gnanam venum, gnanam venum doi...

ennaanvo allakareeru neer, umakku puriyaleena....ennaganum dabaikireer


Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19087) athukellam gnanam venum, gnanam venum doi...

ennaanvo allakareeru neer, umakku puriyaleena....ennaganum dabaikireer

hmmm....cud it be possible that you boil down anything that you do not like (or want to accept or see) as 'lack of gnaanam' in others or self or anywhere?

Btw, am aware of non-coitus birth and therefore asked you to leave avatharas out while talking about birth of seers and sages.

Anyways, thanks for this conversation. See you.


Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome (Post 19086) Some monastic traditions have interpreted it this way:





the theories are interesting... but, if i may ask, what is the basis?

this theory of throwing out children seems to be one taken from the spartan method...

imagination helps, but only sometimes...


palindrome, i do tend to agree with most of your arguments, but you conclude.... and there i do not agree...

conclusion is a very dangerous thing...


palindrome ji!

summa oru tamash thaan..

eppadi sapptiruntha - kuzhanthai pirranthirukkum ungallukku puriyatha enna?

neenga konjam villayadenel - naanum pathillukku vilayadineen.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 19090) the theories are interesting... but, if i may ask, what is the basis?

this theory of throwing out children seems to be one taken from the spartan method...

imagination helps, but only sometimes...

the theory of throwing out children is from the puranas. I found it funny actually (since a brahmin is supposed to be kind but not the kind that thrown out kids). Am making a list of all the stories where such instances are mentioned. And its interesting to note that even the puranas are considered metaphoric (big portions of it sorry not all).

They say there are portions where animals speak so that the stories are easy enough for even a child to remember and pass on to the next generation. Is it possible they were times of academic wilderness where they wanted even a child to be able to remember to pass on. Whatever happened to the adults.

Dunno if its anyone's imagination. Its based on oral guru shishya parampara of one sampradaya. Am also talking to sages of other sampradayas. Am noting it all down.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 19091) palindrome, i do tend to agree with most of your arguments, but you conclude.... and there i do not agree...

conclusion is a very dangerous thing...

am sorry if it appears as concluding. actually no, am not. if somebody has expressed it as their conclusion, maybe am also making the mistake of expressing it as such.

am aware truth is of various forms and i see my role only as a note-taker - my job is only to make a note of writing down everything as it is.


Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome;19095[B ]the theory of throwing out children is from the puranas. I found it funny actually (since a brahmin is supposed to be kind but not the kind that thrown out kids). Am making a list of all the stories where such instances are mentioned. And its interesting to note that even the puranas are considered metaphoric. [/b]

They say there are portions where animals speak so that the stories are easy enough for even a child to remember and pass on to the next generation. Is it possible they were times of academic wilderness where they wanted even a child to be able to remember to pass on. Whatever happened to the adults.

Dunno if its anyone's imagination. Its based on oral guru shishya parampara of one sampradaya. Am also talking to sages of other sampradayas. Am noting it all down.

could you pls name the purana...

animals do speak, even now! only that we dont understand them... there are many stories where "miruga bashai" or "pakshi bashai" is referred to...


sesh!

haven't you read mahabharata , where mother ganga in the form of wife to King chandanu - throws all her 6 children in the ganges.

didn't you know what lord parashurama did upon his father insistence?

there are many many puzzling stories challenging our common notion


mango.... there is a story behing ganga's actions (the vasus) ..... btw, king shanthanu was a kshatriya...!!!

parashurama's actions were that of obedience....

but, i have, so far, never really though to interpolate or extrapolate...!!!:)

Nacchinarkiniyan 03-27-2009 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome (Post 19086) Some monastic traditions have interpreted it this way:





Parasurama was a respected Brahmin of his age. He was not criticized by any seer of his time. The Brahmins of a much later period found that his actions do not suit their present stand. So they wrote a whole lot of justifications for Parasurama's actions.

We have a similar situation regarding many old practices. The brahmins of today flatly refuse that there were any sacrifices in the Vedic Homas.

Why are we trying to interpret/justify the old stories from the viewpoint of the present day Brahmin?

There are a lot of stories about Parasurama. Wikipedia has a small compilation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasurama

As a proud member of the Bhrigu clan, I believe that my perceptor Bagavan Parasurama who is considered an Avatara of Vishnu was a Brahmin. He does not become a Kshatriya just because one Purana says so.

Mnay people believe in Mayil Ravanan and Maya Seethai. These are also from some puranas.


there could be various interpretations of our scriptures... there has been a break up of the guru-shishya tradition in many geographical areas and hence, every sect could, possibly, have a different explanation of that of the brahminical sects...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasurama

durga/mahishasura mardhini was born from the yogic powers of the gods... similarly, it could be that the sages had such a power of their own, which resulted in the birth of shuddh athmas...

puranas were probably meant to illustrate the abstract in simpler terms... possibly it got distorted, possibly not...

that is why the guru-shishya parampara and our way of living, while preserving traditions, is important... in that it helps to elevate one to the spiritual stage where we could perceive things as it was/is...

logic and inference may not always help in such areas... at least, in the state we are in...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Seshadri Subramaniam (Post 19097) could you pls name the purana...

animals do speak, even now! only that we dont understand them... there are many stories where "miruga bashai" or "pakshi bashai" is referred to...

true animals communicate. but there are portions where such things are also used as metaphors...reg naming of the puranas - please hold, i have not completed learning from the gurus nor completed making notes. Will surely share the info here when am done. Dunno how long will that be though, am hoping not more than a few months actually.

Nacchinarkiniyan 03-27-2009 04:10 PM

Religious historians divide Hinduism into Vedic period and the Puranic/Itihasic period. There is a theory that the Puranas/Itihasas were written at the instance of various Kings to proclaim their lineage. In fact some would even say that the Puranas/Itihasas were written by Kshatriyas, because they were made available to people of all castes and not restrictred to Brahmins.

In the theory of Brahmins Vs Kshatriyas, Bagavan Parasurama plays a major role. Srimad Bhagavadam, Mahabharata and Ramayana emphasize the role of Parasurama in eliminating the Kshatriyas. It has been interpreted as class warfare as well as tribal warfare.

The Bhrigus were called the fighting Brahmins. Whether they did have such a clan is open to interpretation. But when there were no organized Kingdoms and Kings, the Brahmins must have had some people to defend them against maruaders.

All theories and conjectures.


I do not agree with the view that river ganga was the wife of king Chandanu. Since river/mother ganga is the wife of Lord Siva. Ganga of King Chandanu should be different

person. Deva Dhooshanamu. Hey Sivudu, neeku MaRi Nee Bharya Ganga-ku etuvanti avamaryada choodu? :frusty:

Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19098) sesh!

haven't you read mahabharata , where mother ganga in the form of wife to King chandanu - throws all her 6 children in the ganges.

didn't you know what lord parashurama did upon his father insistence?

there are many many puzzling stories challenging our common notion


Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 19106) I do not agree with the view that river ganga was the wife of king Chandanu. Since river/mother ganga is the wife of Lord Siva. Ganga of King Chandanu should be different person. Deva Dhooshanamu. Hey Sivudu, neeku MaRi Nee Bharya Ganga-ku etuvanti avamaryada choodu? :frusty:

Ravi,

now you are really making another person also laugh....you did not read mahabharta stories ?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacchinarkiniyan (Post 19105) Religious historians divide Hinduism into Vedic period and the Puranic/Itihasic period. There is a theory that the Puranas/Itihasas were written at the instance of various Kings to proclaim their lineage. In fact some would even say that the Puranas/Itihasas were written by Kshatriyas, because they were made available to people of all castes and not restrictred to Brahmins.

In the theory of Brahmins Vs Kshatriyas, Bagavan Parasurama plays a major role. Srimad Bhagavadam, Mahabharata and Ramayana emphasize the role of Parasurama in eliminating the Kshatriyas. It has been interpreted as class warfare as well as tribal warfare.

The Bhrigus were called the fighting Brahmins. Whether they did have such a clan is open to interpretation. But when there were no organized Kingdoms and Kings, the Brahmins

must have had some people to defend them against maruaders.

All theories and conjectures.

With due respect, yes truly all are theories and conjectures. It would be nice if you were to put forth more info on Bhrigus as fighting brahmins.

There is one monastic tradition that strongly holds the bhrigus in very high esteem and refuses to accept the fighting brahmins part. They say Ravana was an exception and the end result was for all to see. Moreover they say both the ramayan and mahabharat happened in a different era. They are not looking like they think there may be direct descendents of even the chola period, though am not entirely sure about this part.

They also very truly agree that anyone could have been a king and hold the same for other classes as well. Also, none of the dasannami sampradayas consider there was ever any brahmin versus kshatriy fight. I do not know why they consider it that way. This may be the part that could be considered as an interpolation. It would be nice, if you could explain and/or provide more details on fighting brahmins (were they only the bhrigus or were there other groups as well)? Thank You.


What is shameful is treating Lord Sivas wife Ganga as the wife of King Chandanu. Mahabharata is containing Story of Siva Dhooshana. it is truely a lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by palindrome (Post 19109) Ravi,

now you are really making another person also laugh....you did not read mahabharta stories ?


Quote:

Originally Posted by ravivararo (Post 19115) What is shameful is treating Lord Sivas wife Ganga as the wife of King Chandanu. Mahabharata is containing Story of Siva Dhooshana. it is truely a lie.

sigh! everyone has their own version of history. i suppose a person will be need to take a few births merely to note down every version. no wonder no one wants to touch indian historical geneology with even the longest bean pole.

s007bala 03-27-2009 06:41 PM

so,all of you listen to your gurus.

sb


ravi!

arjuna tapas, is from mahabharata - do you know that?


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nacchi!

for you it is one purana. for me it is the very source of authentic information.

Truth doesn't depends on numbers. If many people believed non-truth as truth , it is their ignorance ...

Please think and reflect on the events on Lord Parashuramas life and also Sage Vishwamitra's life.


On how Puranas get disseminated - I've written in some other thread.

It is through Sage Vyasa's disciple Sage Vysamphayana we get all the slokas of Puranas.

You all say Brhamins practiced THEETU etc.. If they don't they wouldn't have carried out the oral transmission of SSP till all the words went to press.




















Quote:

Originally Posted by malgova.mango (Post 19145) nacchi!

for you it is one purana. for me it is the very source of authentic information.

Truth doesn't depends on numbers. If many people believed non-truth as truth , it is their ignorance ...

Please think and reflect on the events on Lord Parashuramas life and also Sage Vishwamitra's life.

Puranas. They have given me a lot of frustrating moments. Take Parasurama. Is the Parasurama of the Bhagavatham, Ramayana, Mahabharata the same person? Nowhere it is mentioned that he is a Chiranjeevi like Hanuman. Is he the same Parasurama who is mentioned in the legend about Renuka Devi.

He was the disciple of Dattatreya. I started doing a bit of research on Dattatreya. Parasurama was one of his disciples. Again Karthaveeyarjuna was also one of the disciples of Dattatreya. Did Parasurama kill his Guru Bhai? Again about Dattatreya and his times. A number of versions. The Dattatreya who is now a popular deity in Maharashtra has a different character from the one in Girnar. Why do we worship Karthaveeyarjuna. If he was a non-Aryan how did he come to be worshipped?

In Puranas who killed Sumbha and Nishumba? Devi or Vishnu (Harivamsa)? Even the killing of Mahishasura has been ascribed to Skanda in Mahabharata. According to Aranyaka pharva Skanda is the son of Agni. Later he came to be the son of Shiva.

When you start enquiring about the lineage of different Kings, you really have a problem with different Puranas claiming different lineages.

MM, You are fortunate that you believe what you believe and are able to reconcile the different versions in different Puranas.


Talking about Parasurama and Viswamitra there is a reason behind the attribution of Kshatriya birth to Parasurama and Brahmin birth to Viswamitra.

Parasurama killed Kshatriyas. This was an act of a Kshatriya according to the later Brahmins. So he is Kshatriya by birth. Viswamitra was the author of Gayatri Mantra which the Brahmins recite. So he had to be a Brahmin by birth.

BTW what has all got to do with the Chidambaram temple? That is the topic I believe.:lol:


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