STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA

J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 456/8

Full transcript of an interview with

ALAN DARBY

on 30 April 1997

by Rob Linn

Recording available on CD

Access for research: Unrestricted

Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library

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OH 456/8 ALAN DARBY

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

This transcript was donated to the State Library. It was not created by the J.D. Somerville Oral History Collection and does not necessarily conform to the Somerville Collection's policies for transcription.

Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The State Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the interview, nor for the views expressed therein. As with any historical source, these are for the reader to judge.

This transcript had not been proofread prior to donation to the State Library and has not yet been proofread since. Researchers are cautioned not to accept the spelling of proper names and unusual words and can expect to find typographical errors as well.

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TAPE 1 - SIDE A AUSTRALIAN RURAL HISTORY PROJECT. Interview with Alan Darby on 30th April, 1997, in Adelaide. Interviewer: Rob Linn. Well, Alan, just recapping a bit since the last time I interviewed you some years ago. Could you just tell me again where and when you were born? AD: I was born 26th May, 1916, Rob.

Alan, you were brought up in Adelaide, weren't you? I remembered that. AD: Yes. Around this area, if I remember?

AD: Yes, around this area. I was born in North Adelaide and our family lived

at Toorak, in Moore Street, Toorak.

How was it that you came to have this contact with rural industry in the end? Did you have any relatives involved with rural industries or -

AD: Well, I would imagine that probably a little bit hereditary. My Father's

family had a small property at Corowa, just below Albury, and there was quite a

big family, and my Father's father died quite young and they had to move out.

However, in due course, he came to Adelaide and followed his profession as a

dentist, having served his apprenticeship in Sydney. And on my Mother's side,

she came from a pastoral/rural family, which goes back to the early part of the

State. My Mother was a Crozier.

Was it John - was her Grandfather? Was that right?

Your Great Grandfather then, Alan, was John Crozier. And you were saying that he came out under, if you like, the auspices of a doctor.

AD: Yes. He came out under a contract, or an engagement, to a Dr Anderson

of Parramatta to manage his estate called Redesdale, near Braidwood, not

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very far from Canberra. And at the time most of the employees were convicts

or assigned servants to the government. And at the end of three years he gave

up that position and engaged with Captain Dobson of the Royal Navy as

Manager of Sandhill Station near Bungendore near Lake George, again not

very far from the Canberra area. Through this period he gained a thorough

knowledge of the science of sheep and farming.

In 1846, when 32 years of age, he decided to enter pastoral pursuits on his

own. He left the Sandhill's in a bullock dray and, in conjunction with George

Rutherford, began squatting on the Edward River in New South Wales. His

interest gradually developed to an enormous extent and it is said, on good

authority, that when he finally settled down in South Australia he was worth

£100,000.

From the Edward River, Great Grandfather and his partner moved to Kulnine

on the Victorian side of the River Murray, which adjoined Neds Corner on the

western end and on the eastern end, Mildura Station. Hence the name of the

town, which was then the pastoral property of the Jamieson brothers.

So, Alan, this is in your blood then. I guess that's what you're saying. AD: Yes, probably. I don't know but it must be through the veins somewhere.

Well, when you did schooling in Adelaide, did you actually expect to go into this sort of pastoral realm, or not?

AD: Not necessarily, no. I didn't have any sort of thoughts for the future, of

just what I'd be doing. So you were educated at St Peter's College? AD: Yes. And at what point did you start thinking about going into occupation - going to work?

AD: Probably when I was about 14 or 15, when I used to go and stay with

various friends on farming or grazing properties. Had a liking for animals, and

horses in particular, and riding. And I think one thing led to another. And then

you'd be out with either sheep or cattle or something of that nature and it sort of

became something you were vitally interested in.

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Who were some of those friends of yours whose properties you stayed on?

AD: Well, mainly at Woods Point, which belonged to the Morphett family, and

they had big dairies. And also they had fat lamb raising on the irrigated areas,

and on the dry land country off the River, they had Merinos. So they had a

combination of most types of stock.

Was that an interesting property when you first knew it?

AD: It was a very, very intense property. There were - I think it was six dairies.

They were all share farmed. Each dairy had 110 cows, and each property had

its own - or each dairy - had its own house or general amenities for the family.

And it was run by a General Manager, Mr Percy Bailey, under the direction of

the Morphett family. They used to supply the milk to the Amscol depot at

Murray Bridge, which would be transported by their own little horse-drawn rail

to the Amscol boat and then by river into their factory at Murray Bridge.

Well, that would've been one of the largest dairy properties of its time.

AD: I think it probably was the largest in South Australia at the time. They ran

essentially AIS - Australian Illawarra Shorthorn - cattle there.

So perhaps that property began some of your early interest, Alan?

AD: It probably did, although I wasn't particularly keen on the cows or that sort

of cattle but they had a few beef cattle, and I was more interested in perhaps

the sheep and that part of the property.

Well, what age were you, can you remember, when you joined up with Elders? AD: I think I was - yes, I was 17 years old.

How did that job come about?

AD: Well, it came about by my Father saying to me about three years prior to

that, 'What do you think you want to do?' And I said, 'Well, I wasn't quite sure'.

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He said, 'Well, I think you ought to be looking ahead a bit'. And he walked me

into Elders, 27 Currie Street, one day and he said, 'What do you think of this

place, Alan?' And I said, 'What do you mean? It doesn't look very exciting to

me'. He said, 'Well, it's a pastoral house and it's of note, and I think you

should perhaps do something about it'.

So when we got home, he said, 'Why don't you write a letter and make an

application for a position'. I said, 'Well, I'm only 15 - or 14 - or something like

that'. He said, 'Well, you know, it's difficult to get a job'. So I wrote the letter

and got an acknowledgement. And then three years time I got a letter from the

Secretary saying there was a junior vacancy and would I report in ten days

time? Well, it suited me because I was able to leave school and not finish my

exams. (Laughter)

Well, at that early time, Alan, what was that place at Elders like, in Currie Street?

AD: Oh, a wonderful institution. Everybody was very friendly. They helped

one another. We all started off in the Correspondence Department. When I

first went there, there was a small intake from after the Depression and the

team of boys that were there prior to a few of us being taken in, they'd been

sitting in the Correspondence Department for three years without a move.

Gives you an idea of how tight business was in those days. And when we

came in, we usually stayed in the Correspondence for approximately ten

months before we were sent to a different department, whatever it happened to

be. Either wool or stock or merchandising, insurance, and so on.

Were there some real characters in there at the time, too? AD: Of course. Was full of them I guess.

AD: Well, some of them did very well but I think probably - we won't mention

too many names.

OK. Well, it was a pastoral house of great note. I mean, at that stage it was still the major house in South Australia? AD: Well, we thought so. (Laughter)

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Goldsbrough Mort's probably didn't. AD: Well, they were opposition but they were gentleman.

What was your own path at Elders, Alan? From that point on.

AD: I was transferred to the Fat Stock Department - no, I beg your pardon. I

was transferred to - I don't know whether it actually had a department but this

was a small section that looked after several station and farming properties'

affairs - their books. So I was virtually a book-keeper for several properties that

Elders was looking after at the time. And they had to receive monthly reports

from the managers of the properties and their costing and so on, and we did

the bookkeeping for it, which was quite interesting. Wages, and how much

they were allowed to spend on their every day requirements.

What sort of picture did doing those books give you of rural affairs at the time? Was it pretty tight? This was the Depression of course.

AD: Yes, well, it was pretty tight but it gave me, in particular, a good insight of

running of a property, that everything had to be accounted for, such as wages

and costing and droving charges, or whatever. Cartage, or whatever it

happened to be. And it was a meticulous sort of a job, and I think I learnt quite

a lot from it. And I'd done a brief course in book-keeping when I was at school,

having been to night school, and that helped quite a lot because the book-

keeping was something that had to be, you know, really correct.

Now, we'll go on a bit later with your progress through Elders but, although you were living in the city, you would've had a fair idea of what was going on in the country. Was it a pretty grim picture across the country generally?

AD: Well, not that I noticed. No, I can't say - I know things were difficult in a

monetary way but our ordinary living in the city with the family and our friends,

it wasn't noticed to the extent I've heard a lot of people say, except that there

wasn't any free spending. But I think from our age, we'd never seen free

spending like it was six or seven years beforehand. We weren't aware of that.

That's the reality as far as my age was concerned.

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Did you ever go out into the rural areas at a young age with Elders when you were in there in the early days? AD: Yes, but I don't quite get the question.

Well, I really wanted to know what were the things you saw out in those country areas. The way of life, and all that sort of thing.

AD: Well, I think, answering that, Rob, the way of life - the properties I went to,

different parts of the State, mainly in the mid north more than the south east,

families lived very much as a full family and visited their country towns as their

main source of either interest or shopping and business and didn't go to the city

very often. They might have had their five or six major trips to the city but not

to the extent that people do today. And if they did go to the city, they would

stay at a hotel for the two or three days and do their business, whereas today

people rush down and back in a very short time. As a result, a lot of the

country towns are being by-passed because their banks and different other

agencies are closing up and it's more computerised life today.

So country life in the 20's, 30's and 40's was localised, is what you're saying. AD: Very localised, yes. And a lot of the families didn't go beyond 40 or 50

miles.

Were the properties insular in themselves, too? I mean, did people very much concentrate on that one property or did some of them think beyond that?

AD: I think they thought beyond that but they were mostly interested in their

own type of product, whatever it happened to be.

Were these properties that you were seeing in those days, Alan, were they grazing, or were they mixed farming? Were they a variety? AD: Mostly grazing, with some mixed farming.

And was your role in those days, too, was that the book-keeping part of it that you were talking about?

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AD: No. Finished that then and I've been transferred to the Fat Stock

Department. The duties there were mainly going to the Metropolitan Abattoirs

at Gepps Cross on a Wednesday for sheep and lamb sales, and going to the

cattle market on Mondays.

So in those days were they all trucked in by train?

AD: There was very little road transport in the early 30's. Nearly all sheep

came in by train and were drafted and put in their various pens. Fat lambs, in

those days, a few came in with little buckboard type of vehicles, and there were

even one or two still coming in with a pair of horses, in a trolley, from the

Salisbury area. Roughly where General Motors are today. And I think their

names were Judd Brothers. They were about the last of the horse drawn ones

that came in.

And one of the very smart motor vehicles was Mr Ern Barratt from Yattalunga,

One Tree Hill, who had a Maudesley truck, and he used to bring fat lambs in

during the season each week from the Smithfield property, Yattalunga. And it

was quite a sight to see this aluminium bodied vehicle coming in, looking very

smart with Mr Barratt with his riding pants and leggings on.

Maudesley. It was a very well known truck, was it, of its time?

AD: Well, there weren't many, I don't think. I think it was a pretty smart one.

Before the days of a Rio or Diamond T truck.

Oh, yes. Well, Yattalunga was a very famous property here. AD: Yes.

So, Alan, in those days, who was teaching you the ropes? How did you learn all the basics of the stud -

AD: I don't like to say this but I was quieter then than I am now, and I was a

great observer - watching people and listening - and I think that was my

greatest way of learning. And I don't like to say so but I can't give any one

particular person any credit.

No, that's alright. That's not a problem with that at all. So, the market was very much a working market in those days, wasn't it?

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AD: Yes. Was there stuff coming in, and then going out to the butchers shops, or to the abattoirs themselves?

AD: Yes, well, they went straight from the abattoirs. The butcher would have

his own brand and the professional branders would put that mark on them and

then they'd go straight across the railway line to the abattoirs, slaughtered, and

then delivered by the abattoirs - by the Metropolitan Abattoirs - to the various

butcher shops. The old vehicles were solid rubber tyres and chain driven. I

don't know what make they were but they used to grind along the road. You

could hear them. Do you remember them?

No, I don't, Alan. But I know the type of vehicle you mean. So they were just an enclosed back - truck of some sort -

AD: Big old grey fellows, yes. And they'd swing an arm out with the carcasses

on and into the butchers shop.

For the farmers, that central market in the outskirts of Adelaide, which it was then, was really central to their income, wasn't it?

AD: Well, it was, and there was no other abattoirs other than local

consumption allowed. There were no licences for any others. It was years and

years before the government would allow another abattoirs, and the first one

after Gepps Cross was -

Noarlunga?

AD: Noarlunga. And Noarlunga was started off as a private company and

changed hands a few times and eventually became Adelaide Steamship

Company, and then - not sure what it is today. Oh, Metro Meat. Yes. Well, Alan, how did you come to be involved with stud stock at Elders? Was that a general progress from the fat stock?

AD: Yes, well, from the Fat Stock Department I was transferred to the Stud

Stock Department in - I think it was about February 1937. We had a small

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team at the Stud Stock. Mr Goodwin was our Manager. He was the internal

organiser. And next we had Rob Gosse - Robert Christie Gosse - and myself,

and Bill Monfries - WB Monfries. And that's all the staff we had for the whole of

the State.

What was the role of Stud Stock in Elders at that time?

AD: Well, I think it was having to do a bit of everything. It wasn't sort of

specialised so much. Branches did very little in stud stock. Somehow or other

they were a bit frightened of it. They didn't quite understand it. So we had to

push out and do quite a bit in various ways.

At that stage, the number of vehicles in Elders in Adelaide Office was very,

very limited. Stud Stock didn't have a vehicle. The Stock Department, I think,

had roughly about three vehicles. If somebody wanted to go up and inspect

rams or livestock at, say, Burra or Mount Bryan, invariably they'd go up by train

and then be picked up by the bloke or branch manager, and taken out to the

property. But if some special trip had to be arranged from Adelaide, Rob

Gosse had a private car and I had a private car, and we'd take the client and

then we'd charge the company for the mileage. Threepence halfpenny a mile,

we charged. (Laughter in voice) And we didn't - we just sort of cut even. We

were happy to do that to get on with the service to our clients - to our buyers

and sellers. And that happened until, oh, well into about 1938/39 when we

were allotted a car.

Alan, there'd be a lot of people who might listen to this or read this interview one day, and they wouldn't know the background to the stud stock industry at all. Now, you're talking about buyers and sellers. Could you just explain how the studs themselves have developed over time and who the buyers might have been, and why they wanted to buy this stock anyway? Because behind it all, if I've got it right, was this wanting to improve the general flocks of Australia, not just of one part. If as a farmer you wanted to get on, then you added high quality stud sheep to your selection. You bought in a ram or high quality ewes for the very purpose of making your own flock better, and that was for higher wool prices, better meat prices or whatever. Am I on the right track? AD: You're exactly right, Rob. I think you've been doing a lot of study.

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Yes. So, the big studs. What were the better known studs you would have dealt with?

AD: Well, the better known studs in South Australia at that time were the

group of Bungarees, and Koonoona, and Collinsville. They were the lifeline.

And there were also some smaller studs that rely either on one or the other of

the bloodlines we've just mentioned.

Gebhardts would have been one?

AD: Yes, Gebhardts were also an early one. Gebhardts were - some of the

early Gebhardts I think might have had some Peppin blood, but I'm not quite

sure about that. But there were several Gebhardts. There was Mokota and

Mackerode, they were two brothers.

The two brothers properties? AD: Two brothers, and they run separately. So, Alan, these studs - they were Merino studs we're talking about here? AD: Merino studs, yes.

Did you look at any of the British breed studs as well?

AD: Yes. Yes, looked at British breed studs. At the early stages the main

British breed ram was a Dorset Horn. He was in vogue very much because of

his early maturity, and breed desirable to mate with a straight Merino ewe and

get a good result.

That's where the cross bred lamb for the meat market, is that -

AD: Yes, for the meat market. So in other words, it was fairly cheap for a

grazier. If he wanted to get some fat lambs, he could buy a Dorset and get the

results straight away. Whereas a bit later, it became a little more specialised

and people would have a Border Leicester/Merino cross ewe, and then mate it

to a Dorset, and a little bit more meaty again. But however, both were

satisfactory for the meat market without being specialised and it also depended

on what area you were breeding your fat lambs in. How much rainfall.

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So the higher the rainfall, say, in the Adelaide Hills or the -

AD: They would probably have a cross breed ewe and then the down breed

on top. Whereas if you were out in the sort of semi farming country, you'd

probably mate straight with a Merino ewe.

At that stage the Shropshire had been fairly popular before this period but went

out of vogue because they had woolly faces and used to get full of grass

seeds, so the Shropshire went out, near enough to completely.

About that period there was a short run of Southdowns. They became

reasonably popular for the better favoured areas but they were a breed, shorter

legged, down type - little bit more than a Dorset - and produced a very high

quality lightweight lamb. But they, again, weren't very suitable for the medium

to dryer areas for fat lambs. So they're not so much in vogue today. TAPE 1 - SIDE B Alan, we're talking about, if you like, the evolution of the different facets of the sheep industry in the 30's in South Australia. Now, we've been talking about the different types of stock that you were involved with with the sheep. What was the role of people from Elders? Was it a role just to buy and sell, or was there, if you like, a classing role to actually fix up the better sheep with farmers? To give them advice. AD: No, at that stage, Elders were - I just missed a question, Rob.

Well, the question was about the role of the people at Elders had taken.

AD: Oh, yes. Well, when we considered we had sufficient expertise or the

buyer had faith in us in that respect, he would either ask us frequently for

advice or assistance in the selection of his stock, or alternatively, might write or

ring up and ask us to select on his behalf, which we did as diligently as we

could. But we were not in the position to go out and class various people's

flocks because that wasn't considered the job of an agent. That was the job of

an independent person, not attached to a company. That was Elders' policy at

that time.

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Well, some of the properties that you - particularly the larger Merino properties were somewhat renowned, and some infamous, for the ways in which they could actually bring buyers in and persuade them to go down certain paths. Did you have to help those buyers at these times?

AD: Yes. Well, that's quite interesting but I don't think that was quite as much

as said because a lot of buyers liked to be led. And they liked probably to be

led by that particular stud breeder. But I think if anything was going a bit funny,

well, we'd sort of give him a nudge and say, 'Well, hey, I don't think that one will

suit your country', or something like that. But I think there's probably a little bit

of myth in that.

So when you're talking about matching buyers and sellers as we have been, if you like, and you're saying it doesn't suit your sort of country, you weren't therefore, Alan, just looking for the type of sheep, if you like. You were looking for a sheep that was suited to a certain environment?

AD: That's very true. Very true, yes. Because what would suit perhaps a 25

inch rainfall situation, you might need a slightly different animal for perhaps a

16 or 17 inch rainfall. It's only through experience and observation that you

found out which was which. And one had to be fairly careful that way.

Although, I must say today that nearly all of the Merino types have got closer

and closer together, whereas a fair while ago there used to be more extremes.

There used to be ultra strong wool breeds and rams around, and others

tending to be on the more medium side. Well, they've all much blended

together. The stronger ones have toned down and those that were slightly on

the finer side have got to the more medium side. So I think you could say that

the majority of flocks in South Australia today are not a long way apart in their

wool counts, and their ability to transmit. And I think a few of them also more

reliable in their breeding, meaning that they can transmit more true to type, as

they are themselves, to producing progeny. This might sound a bit

contradictory but years and years ago it was always thought that you had to

send a very, very strong ram to the lighter rainfall countries and he'd fine down.

And so that really was only starvation type to produce wool. Well, that story is

altogether wrong today. If you get a good reliable ram or breed behind you, it'll

breed truer to what he is, and that's the fact of how things are today.

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Yes, I understand what you're saying. AD: Do you?

Yes. We're talking about the 1930's, and it was a relatively difficult period for country people, although I guess they were a bit more self sufficient than city. And then comes the War, and I guess we probably won't cover that part of your life, Alan, for now. But after the War is there a discernible difference that begins in rural industries for you? You're still at Elders?

AD: Yes, I'm still with Elders. When I came back in 1946, and still went

straight into the Stud Stock Department, and at that time - yes, straight after the

War I went straight back into the Stud Stock. After several months there, the

company decided to send me to Western Australia, who had been somewhat

depleted of staff there, and their stud stock requirements were getting

somewhat larger. So I spent a short year there, and I think one of the ideas

was for me to be able to tell the breeders and clients more directly about our

South Australian sheep and what we could do.

I know what you're saying. There was a new land being opened up in the West. AD: Yes.

There was a need for a certain type of sheep, which was actually quite closely aligned to the South Australian breeds.

AD: Yes. At that stage there wasn't a lot of Merino studs in Western Australia,

although in reality there were more there than South Australia, but they were

only small studs. And there was a vast number of flock rams sent annually to

Western Australia because their own studs couldn't supply the quantity. In fact,

we used to send rams as far away from Mount Bryan as up to Derby.

Really? Yes, I know. On the west coast.

AD: Right up beyond the Kimberleys. They would rail down from Mount Bryan

to Port Adelaide, and Port Adelaide they would be put on a ship to Fremantle,

and from Fremantle they'd be taken off and spelled for a few days, and then

put on one of the coastal - Western Australian government owned ships - right

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around to there. So they travelled a long way, and the point being that Western

Australia didn't have sufficient number of rams to supply those big orders.

And similarly we also used to send a big draft of rams to Port Hedland, to

Degrey River Pastoral Company. Just happens to be one. They'd take about

250 rams a year.

And similarly, big numbers of rams would go to Carnarvon also, let alone to the

goldfields area where they'd be distributed from Kalgoorlie.

Was the idea, again, improving those flocks?

AD: Improving those flocks with the South Australian rams. Not just because

they were South Australian rams but because they just didn't have sufficient

numbers themselves.

What was special about the South Australian breed that could help that Western Australian environment?

AD: Well, we used to think that they had strong constitutions, and been bred in

the Burra/Jamestown areas, which seemed to be able to cope with the harsher

climates than perhaps the straight Peppin ram, as the Peppin was in those

days.

Alan, after you came back from the West - we're talking towards the late 40's now - there was almost an explosion in the Australian wool industry. What was your perception of that from within the organisation, looking out?

AD: Well, I think probably one of the things that was happening about that

period, or just before, was the opening up and development of a lot of the

south east of South Australia that had been, you might say, wether country,

whereas a lot of scrub stuff that hadn't been cleared. And fairly soon after the

War when the AMP and different other private individuals went down around

the Keith/Tintinara and other areas there - (Telephone interruption) Alan, we're talking about really the rapid progress of the Merino industry.

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AD: Oh, yes. We were down at the steps of development of the South East.

That area became very interesting after the AMP opened up a huge amount of

the country, and I'm repeating again, and other private individuals. And that

area seemed to be quite suitable for Merino sheep - for the medium wool

Merino sheep. Not the ultra strong or not the ultra fine. There wasn't any

troubles down there with foot rot or anything of that nature because the rainfall

seemed to be quite safe in that regard, and big numbers of sheep got in there

fairly quickly. And some twenty-odd years later, a lot of the early settlers there

decided that they'd starting breeding a few rams for themselves instead of

buying them from the bigger studs.

And that trend also occurred in other areas, but particularly in that south

eastern region. And also some of the established breeders from the Mid North

bought properties and established their second studs down there. Such as the

Lehmann's, the Ashby's, Daniel's, and a few other names that I just can't think

of. So things changed quite a lot. So after another ten or fifteen years, a lot of

the area there was self sufficient for ram producing and didn't have to get them

from the parent or major studs in the Mid North. And that still applies today.

And similarly that same thing happened on Eyre Peninsula around the Tumby

Bay/Port Lincoln area, where 50 years ago nearly all the rams had to be sent

over either by road transport or by boat to the various ports. Port Lincoln, and

different ones further up the track. They'd go on the Yandra and different ships

from Port Adelaide, and various other ketches used to go into the ports, and

they'd load rams at Port Adelaide and take them there, including Thistle Island.

Now famous for the calici virus. (Laughter)

AD: Wardang island. We might leave that comment about Thistle Island. (Laughter) So, Alan, there's this -

AD: Thistle Island's just behind Boston Island. The other one - why can't I

think of it. It's only over from Kadina - where the virus is. Wardang.

We might leave that I think. (Laughter) Alan, there's this movement at the time that I hadn't realised. There's not only an increase in wool prices that's beginning to happen, and better

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price for prime lamb exports, but there's an opening up of new areas to this stud stock as well, if you like, causing a greater demand for it. Now, I hadn't realised the two went together. So was it a real boom time for the industry?

AD: I think the boom time - you don't always feel these things when they're

happening. But just referring to Eyre Peninsula, and a lot of stud started up

there similar to that in the South East. In the Cleve area there were about four

or five. And at Tumby Bay and the back of Port Lincoln also a number, and

further up at Cummins and so on, which really deleted the number of flock ram

requirements from the Mid North.

As that happens though there are new interests, if you like, or new areas opening up for sheep in a way that it hadn't done before, and at the same time I know there's a rapid increase in wool prices from about 1948. AD: Yes. So, as a stud stock agent, you were in the thick of a lot of that. Now, how did you help promote and market a lot of that stuff? Still the same way?

AD: I think still the same way, yes. I think it was just that demand - world

demand - that created it. I don't think any individuals could take credit for

anything there.

Were there any major changes in this stud stock regime during the 50's itself, Alan, that you remember? AD: No, I don't think so. Nothing that I can just sort of pin-point.

Well, just for a minute, could we go over what happened in a year with the stud stock? Where were the major sales for instance? AD: In the 50's? Yes.

AD: Sydney was a huge sale held at the Showgrounds in usually the

first/second week in June. Had the sheep show first. Quite an important

Merino sheep show, and also British breeds. And then the Merino ram sales

which used to take place in the big pavilion. I've just forgotten the name of it -

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which took about four days. And they had the stud rams - the special stud

rams - and then on the last day they had a team of selected rams, which were

slightly a grade down from the stud rams. And buyers would come from

Queensland, New South Wales, and so on, but South Australia was always a

little bit reluctant in buying because we always thought we had what we

wanted. (Laughter) But it was a - there wasn't any Dubbo sales or any big

out of country sales anywhere, apart from Sydney, in the eastern States.

Because Melbourne had their annual sale in the wool stores - the

Commonwealth Wool and Produce Company Stores - in about the first week in

August, but their demands and market came mostly from western districts and

some from the north Victoria, but that didn't have the sting or the following of

Sydney, and it was only a much weaker sale.

One little point of interest perhaps for the Melbourne sales was that they had a

section for ‘Saxon’ Tasmanian sheep. Five or six of the leading Tasmanian

breeders, the Taylor's and so on, used to bring their rams over and there was

quite a reasonable demand for their stock from the Western District of Victoria -

Geelong and down below.

Now, what about the Adelaide sales themselves? Were they an important sale?

AD: Adelaide sales were, pre-War - I've just forgotten numbers - but it would

be more than triple the number that they have today. And I think a lot of that's

been brought about by these other sales that we've been talking about, or

studs that we've been talking about. We talked about the studs over in Eyre

Peninsula and also the South East, and I forgot to mention a few on Yorke

Peninsula also, but every time a decent ram was sold in any of those, or a stud

ram, it's taken away from the market in Adelaide. So, we've diminished and got

to very, very small numbers, although our top rams have been selling very well,

but the numbers deleted and I don't think it will get any better. I think it might

even slip because of these other centres who've cropped up.

These are the field days and the - AD: Field days, and Tumby Bay sales, and Naracoorte sales, and so on. Karoonda?

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AD: Karoonda. All of them, yes. They're all weakening the Adelaide sales.

Well, the Adelaide sale would've been held during the Adelaide Show itself?

AD: Yes. Yes, Adelaide Show sales during the Show. Of course, earlier,

before Wayville in 1925, the ram sales in Adelaide used to be at Elders Wool

Store at Port Adelaide. And then they shifted to the Showgrounds when they

first started. I think Goldsbroughs were the - and Dalgetys (I'm not sure of my

facts here) - were the first. Elders didn't sell till about 1932, I think. '32 or 3, or

something like that.

And, Alan, was the Adelaide sale on a par with Sydney, or much smaller?

AD: No, much smaller. Because the huge volume of Riverina and other New

South Wales studs used to take in big numbers. To Sydney? AD: Yes. I haven't got a catalogue to - No, the numbers are important but in one sense - AD: Oh, they would've been five times the number of Adelaide. Was Adelaide itself an important centre?

AD: It was an important centre but mainly for South Australia, and supplying

Western Australia.

One thing I wanted to ask you, what caused you to move into self employment, if you like, in 1961? What brought that about?

AD: Well, that's quite an interesting question. At that stage - competition had

always been fairly strong with agents but it became rather fierce with,

particularly with, Elders and Goldsbroughs. One wanting to beat the other at

either numbers or price or breaking records or something like that, which didn't

suit me, or my way of thinking. My idea was to try and do a good job for

whoever you were doing it for, not a public competition. And so I thought that,

well, I'd like to be able to have more time to go out and help some of our clients

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- the buyers - who were looking for some help and not worry about having to

fight another agent, as was being a bit ruthless I thought. So I decided that I'd

like to go out on my own and do advising and classing. And at that stage I

hadn't got one job or one promise or anything else because I kept this to

myself, but when I did decide I was treated very well by quite a lot of friends.

However, coincidentally, at the time I decided to do this, it was just about a

month, or two months, before Elders and Goldsbroughs decided to merge.

(Laughter in voice) It made no difference to my thinking, so I just carried on

and went out on my own, after the Adelaide Show sales were finished in 1962

and the merger was taking place at that stage.

From that point on then, your story's a bit different from what it had been with Elders, wasn't it? Because you became a professional classer, if you like, as well. AD: I became an individual. (Laughter)

Yes. What was your role then, Alan? Was it, if you like, a peculiar service to clients to help them and assist them with their breeding pattern?

AD: With their breeding and their selection and general looking after to their

flocks, and advising, and everything in that nature that I'd been doing in a

small, small way before, but was able to give full time to those who wanted my

help.

Were you one of the first to have done that? AD: From a stock agent, I think so. As far as I know. I just can't think of

anyone else.

Were there other professional classers at the time?

AD: There were but not a great number. Far more in Victoria and New South

Wales but very few in South Australia.

And do you think your move out of Elders into that was partly helped by the rather buoyant state of the industry at the time?

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AD: No. To be perfectly honest, I think I'd had enough of the pushing around

and being told what to do when you didn't think it was quite right.

Yes, I know what you're saying. It was the right time to change. So, for the next 20 plus years, Alan, you were on - in fact, 30 years - you were on your own. Did you see the industry develop over that time, or change?

AD: Yes. Yes, it did change. Hard to just pin-point how. But I think in the

immediate post-War years, and during the War and so on, transport was

limited. Petrol rationing. People couldn't get out from one village, or one town,

to another, and 20/30 years later everyone was sort of more mobile and could

move around to see what the other man was doing. And as a result, the little

towns got left behind a bit and sort of a little bit different way of life. The

communal spirit in some of the smaller towns was starting to go, and wane and

what not, and people come into cities more often. I think they were some of the

changes that you could see.

And also when things got a bit harder, a bit later, a property that had perhaps

four or five permanent employees was down to one. And now, as you know, so

many places they only bring in weekly or daily help. Cutting down altogether

on employment, which seems a shame to me.