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Some detailed Jager pictures

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08-01-2010, 04:33 PM

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Jan 2008Maryland

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Some detailed Jager pictures

#1

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wilhelm

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detailed Jager pictures http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?23660-Some-detailed-

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Warning Will Robinson!!! Warning!!! CRAZY LONG POST!!! These arethe beginning of my attempt to document the Jager from a design andconstruction standpoint. Really detailed information about these pistols isalmpst nonexistent. I am interested in firearms from a design perspectiveas much as I am a historical perspective...perhaps more. Much of mycollection is based on firsts and that is the number one reason I looked fora Jager all these years. So, you can imagine my frustration at the lack of really good closeup pictures. I am no photographer but I think thesepictures will help someone who is in the same boat I was in. I know thatthey answer questions that vexed me for so long! The text and picturesthat follow are copyright 2010 and are not to be used without my writtenpermission.

First are three pictures of the grips and grip screws. I believe that theyare made of horn and they're pretty sturdy. The screws have very shallowslots and are easily marred. The threads are crudely turned. This is thecase for all screws on the pistol but they seem to work fine. Notice thatthe inside of the right grip has an "M" scratched into it. Various metal

parts have either an "M" or some other letter stamped into them. I believethese to be factory inspection marks.


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Next is a picture of the pistol with the left sideplate removed and the


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magazine inserted. Note the serial number on the barrel block. I had readbefore that the entire serial number is stamped on all parts. That is notthe case. Some parts have the entire number 1149 stamped while othershave only 149.

Next is the same view with magazine removed. This shows the triggerspring and trigger bar. Note that the trigger spring has been replaced.This happened just after I recieved it on the second test shot! Wilhelmluck. I've come to expect it and live with it over the years. I have kept theoriginal and the replacement was done so as to be as unintrusive aspossible. It's crude compared to the original but it works. A range reportwill come later.....hopefully nothing else breaks but I'm not confident thatit won't!


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Next are two pictures of the left side plate. The stamped ejector can beclearly seen. Also note how the inside of the plate is dished out for therecoil spring. While the outside of the plate is very nicely finished, theinside is quite crudely worked and shows many file marks. In fact, mostparts seem to be crude and handworked but others are as fine as I have

ever seen. There is a rainbow effect evident in the bluing on the inside of both left and right sideplates. I assume this is because they are hardenedbut that is only a guess.


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Here we have two closeup shots of the ejector and the fastening


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mechanism. I read somewhere that the ejector is held in place by ascrew. I cannot dispute that on other examples but it is clearly pinned inmine. Notice that the pin is large inside the plate but very small on theoutside. It would be "T" shaped in cross section. Also note that the pincan only be seen on the outside when the light strikes at just the rightangle. Very good workmanship here. The ejector leaves a very small lineust past halfway up the side of spent casings and parallel to the base andneck of the cartridge. Only the little tip seen at the rear of the ejector inthe first picture actually touches the casing. Also evident in these picturesagain is the difference in finishing between the inside and outside of theplates.


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The next three pictures show the 7 round magazine. The follower is eitherin the white or nickle plated. The base is pinned in two places. One of thepins was not drilled straight! German craftsmanship is lacking here!


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Next we have two of the three frame screws. All are the same diameter,length and thread but the screw that mounts above the trigger (shown onthe left) has a domed head and has the bluing removed from the headwhile the two lower ones (one shown on the right) are flat across theirface and are blued. I assume the bluing was removed when the dome was

applied. Also, you can see the sun shining through the edge of a grip.Pretty!!


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Next is a detail of the spacer tube that the upper frame screw passesthrough and its relationship with the barrel block. Note that thetriggerguard strap is dished out to make room for the spacer. This spaceracts as a recoil lug for the barrel and as a frame spacer so that you don'ttighten things up too much upon reassembly. While it does keep the

barrel from rising, it does absolutely nothing to keep the barrel fromfalling. When the action is forward, the barrel is as tight as any fixedbarrel pistol. However, when the action is to the rear, the barrel gets alittle squirrelly. This cannot be good for durability let alone accuracy and Isuspect that the second pin was added later as a fix for this problem.Note that the trigger is held in place by a pin and NOT the frame screw. Iwondered this for a long time.


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Next is a closeup of the spacer tube and upper frame screw. This tubeappears to have been ground to proper length and is kinda' sharp on oneside.


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This last picture shows how the trigger, trigger spring and trigger barinteract with each other. The triggerguard strap has been removed andthe trigger pulled to show the surface that pushes on the lug seen on thebar. This bar protrudes through the frame when the pistol is assembledbut I don't know why. You could actually push on this bar and fire the

weapon without pulling the trigger but it is impossible without trying hardto do so. In other words, it's perfectly safe. Both the trigger and it'saccompanying bar are very finely made. Notice the cutout in the frameplate for the trigger spring to move back and forth. The spring and barnotches are milled out of the plate. Also, a step is machined into eachplate just forward of the barrel block and a small lip is machined at therear of each plate that locks into cuts in the backstrap. As far as I can tell,these things are the only machine work done to the plates other thandrilling holes for the takedown pins, barrel pins and assembly screws aswell as the threading of the screw holes. For all I know, those holes could

have been part of the original stamping though. Everything else seems tohave been done with a handfile! WOW!! That's a lotta' use of the word"trigger" right there!!


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That's all for now. More to follow later. Hopefully, this stuff is useful andI'm not boring anyone to tears!!

Last edited by wilhelm; 08-01-2010 at 11:25 PM.

Technoidiot

Wear is the natural evolution of anything made by man. Embrace wearand see it not as misfortune but rather as a living library of things pastwith each mark, each blemish a cherished memory. yes, I am acheezeball.

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08-02-2010, 01:53 PM


Feb 2010Russian, Moscow

41

#2


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Perfectly well! Very informative photos! You are right, it is very difficult tofind the information on design of this pistol. Continue necessarily. I havean intention to create 3D-model this pistol and your photos very much willhelp me

New Member

2m-outrage

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08-02-2010, 10:28 PM


Jan 2008Maryland

403

Alrighty then. Here goes part deux. I'll start right where I left off. Asbefore, text and images copyright 2010. So don't be stealing my stuff manny!!! :-P

#3

Member

wilhelm


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Here are both sides of the trigger bar. Picture one shows back side. It'sboring but it's shiny! The trigger and trigger spring part of the bar wealready looked at. On the extreme right of picture two, you see a littlehumped up bit at the end. This acts as the disconnector. It keeps thepistol from firing when the slide is out of battery and it resets the triggerafter each shot. The lug to the left of the disconnector interacts with thesear pulls it down as you pull the trigger.....BANG! Or in the case of a.32.....POP!


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A couple shots of the trigger guard strap. First is the top front. It showshow the takedown pin works. The pin has a lip around it. A spring isinserted into a blind hole drilled into the strap. Then the pin goes in. Thena little screw is screwed in from the side which captures the pin becausethe little lip on the pin hits it. I hope that makes sense because I'm not

doing a disassembly. The little capture screw looks mighty fragile. Alsoseen are the grab points used to pull the strap down after the pin isdepressed. Notice how they are designed with a slot so that they wraparound the frame plates thus giving the front of the pistol rigidity. Also,you can see the serial number and an "M" inspection stamp. The secondpicture is the lower part of the strap seen from the inside of the pistol. Ithas a groove filed into it to guide the magazine.


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Next up is the rear strap. This first picture shows the inside of the strap.


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Top of the pistol is to the left. Notice again that only the last three digits of the serial are present. To the right, we see the magazine release. The magrelease is held in place by a pin. It's a typical european heel arrangement.Notice that ol' Franz had one of his boys go a little wacko with a file here.In todays world, this pistol would have 100% interchangable parts. Butthis was made in 1915 and the concept was simply too far ahead of it'stime. The design was supposed to simplify production but here is ampleevidence of the hand fitting that was required to make it work. Iguarantee that if you took a rear strap off of another pistol and tried toust stick it into this pistol, you would run into problems. Moving to theleft, we have a hole where one of the frame screws passes through. Moreon that hole in a bit. Then we have the sear spring. You can see where itdisappears into the sear which is either in the white or nickled. You canalso see a lug on the top of the sear. This is where the trigger bar pushesagainst. Lastly, you can see a little slot cut into the strap near the safetylever. There is one on each side and they capture the rear of the frameplates. Look at all the parts laying around in the background.....I'mmessy.

Here is the rear strap seen from the top. Front of pistol would be top of picture. We can see the top of the safety lever to the left and it's in the"Fire" position. To engage the safety, you swing this lever down through a180 degree arc until it points straight out the back of the pistol. It's a verypositive engagement but it's awkward and fragile. It takes two hands tomanipulate and a little metal bit sticking out in thin air like that is just


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asking to be broken. You can also clearly see the left slot I talked aboutearlier which captures the rear of the left frame plate. The right slot isvisible too but it's hard to make out because of the angle. The screw holdsthe leaf spring for the safety on place. The spring has a pretty fire blue onit. Beside the safety spring is the sear. The notch on top holds the strikerto the rear and you can clearly see the lug that the trigger bar pushes on.The sear rotates down to the rear and is held in the rear strap by a pin. Ihave no idea how the safety lever is held in place nor how the reartakedown pin (barely visible to the right as a silver and shadowed line) isheld in. I have no plans to disassemble this mess as I might breaksomething. I might get ballsy at some point but not today! Something alittle disconcerting is the size of the lugs/slide rails that the slide engageswith. They can be seen sticking out each side at the bottom of the picture.These things are TINY and they are all that keeps the slide from flying upand away from the frame as it moves back and forth. I guess they workbut I'm used to nice long rails. I keep reminding myself....it's only a little.32. My P7 has short little rails too but they work.

Here are the last two pictures of the rear strap. They show the hole thatthe lower rear frame screw passes through. Notice the crack!! This part of the frame is under no real stress and the other side of the hole has plentyof meat so I'm not too worried about it but is does show shoddyworkmanship. You can also see the magazine release and its capture pin.The heel release is crude. The little grip lines aren't even parallel. Maybethe guy was drunk?


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The next two show the slide/barrel group removed from the pistol. Thisfirst picture shows the group from the bottom rear. You can see thebreechblock still in place and the feed ramp of the barrel. We'll go intodetail on the breechblock later.

Here is the front of the group showing the slide, front slide insert withsight blade, barrel and spring. This picture also shows what I believe to bea major weak point in this design. Notice what looks like a crack. It's not.That is the meeting of the slide insert and slide proper. You see, at thispoint the slide proper is just a thick bar with some machiining done to it.It has a hole milled down through it which the front insert goes into upfrom the bottom. This insert sticks out the top, forming the front sight.Then a hole is drilled from the side through the slide proper and the insertand a pin inserted. I don't think any welding or brazing was involved. Thewhole thing is then polished and made pretty. It's polished so well that

you can't even see the pin on my example but it's there. I'll bet that thegap you see was invisible too 95 years ago. I'd lay money on it thatprolonged shooting will first result in a loose insert and eventually lead tocatastophic failure of the slide. I believe that this is the reason laterproduction models have two pins up front. Right now the insert is rocksolid but when I put a straight edge down the front of the slide, I can seethat the insert is no longer perfectly perpendicular to the top of the slide.it's off by a hair. We'll see more of this area later when we inspect theslide all by itself.


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Now we've disassembled the slide barrel group and here is the barrel andbarrel block seen from the right side. This is all milled from one piece of steel as far as I can tell. We can see the right lug which sticks through theframe and it has an inspection stamp visible. We also see the cutout forthe extractor and a lug on top of the barrel block. This lug fits into a

recess machined out of the slide and helps keep everything on thestraight and narrow during recoil and return into battery. You can seesome machining marks. Where is the pride in work well done Franz??


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Not much to see here. Four groove barrel. It's really nice in there but I leftsome crud. Please ignore that.


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That's all for tonight. I'll continue this yawnfest tomorrow guys. Thanksfor tolerating me.


Technoidiot


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08-03-2010, 12:30 AM

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Aug 2003near Philly Penn,

USA 10,009

#4

Administrator

Edward Tinker


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This is excellent Wilhelm, well done and thank you for posting, i am goingto make this a sticky.

Although they need to have the pictures posted here, if you don't knowhow to shrink them, I will do so at some point.

In other words, don't worry about it, I'll take care of it while I pretend todrink a wine cooler.

Ed

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08-03-2010, 12:51 AM

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Jan 2008

Maryland403

Thanks Ed!! WOW My first sticky!!!!! This is great!!!!

On another note, my signature says it all.....I'm a Technoidiot. In otherwords, I'm clueless. I'll just keep posting the only way I know how andyou can fix it however you want it. Thanks again Ed!

Technoidiot


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wilhelm


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08-04-2010, 12:06 AM


Jan 2008Maryland

403

I'm back with part three. Isn't this over yet?? Text and pictures copyright2010.

Before I go on, I need to show two more pictures of the backstrap. Thefirst one shows the right side of the strap assembly. We can see the reartakedown pin and the far side of the safety drum. You can also see thelittle pin that holds the sear in as well as the sear itself and the lug on itthat the trigger bar pushes on. Look at that tiny little slide rail lug at therear for the slide!! Picture two shows the left side of the assembly with the

safety rotated into the "Safe" position. You can also see the left side sliderail, sear and sear pin again, safety spring and retaining screw and, lastly,the sear spring coming up from the bottom of the picture.

#6

Member

wilhelm


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Now we move on the the breechblock. This part is machined (obviously)


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and is in no way fastened to the slide. It just sits in there and gets pulledback and forth by a pin inserted through the slide. When you remove theslide, the breechblock just falls out on the floor. More on that pin later.First picture shows the face of the block. The striker is protruding out thefront. Off to the left we see the extractor and to the right, the slot that theejector passes through.

Here is the right side of the block. At the bottem left, you can see where acurved area was milled away. This was done to make room for thedisconnector to rise and allow the pistol to be fired. As the block moves tothe rear on recoil, it pushes the trigger bar out of contact with the searand it also keeps the trigger bar from interacting with the sear unless theslide is in battery. We can also see the bare metal extractor running alongthe entire length of the block and a pin holding the extractor in place. Theextractor is curved along its length to give it spring tension, much like the

trigger spring was. This part is inherently fragile. If you were to pull theextractor out from the block very much, it would most defenitely break. Ihope it holds up better than the trigger spring did! In the middle of theblock is a dished out area. This is where the pin in the slide rests. Thesetwo parts (slide pin and breechblock) are very tightly fitted and there is noplay between them. You can also see a couple coils of the striker spring.


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Three quarter rear view of the breechblock. The little bit in the middle of the back is a plug that was inserted to hold the striker and its spring in.You can also see the pin that holds this plug in place. It's hard to makeout but you can just see the rear of the extractor on the right side of theblock.


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Three quarter right side of the block seen from the bottom. Closest to thecamera is the dished area for the disconnector. The slots machined for themagazine feed lips can be seen as well as the striker lug that catches thesear. Notice the pin that holds the rear plug in place. There is a piece of metal missing from the block here and you can clearly see the fracture.

This hole was drilled WAY to close to the edge and it probably broke whenthe pin was being driven in at the factory all those years ago. Moreshoddy workmanship. I was going to disassemble the block and takesome pictures of the striker until I saw this mess. If you've ever seen thestriker from a Mauser Model 1910, you know what the Jager striker lookslike.


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Next is the top of the breechblock. Rear is to the right. We can see thelast three digits of the serial and an "L" inspectors mark. In the center isthe dished out part and the drilled hole with the striker spring present. Tothe left is something interesting. Look carefuly and you can see wheresome of the bluing is worn away in the outline shape of a backwards "1"

and part of a backwards "9". These are wear marks from the slide. Yousee, the slide is serial numbered in this area and the raised areas resultingfrom the number punch have rubbed the bluing off the block leaving these"ghost" numbers. Neato!!!


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It's late and I'm tired so I'm stopping here for now. Tomorrow, I will coverthe slide and start wrapping this whole thing up. Thanks forreading.....now WAKE UP and go do something interesting 'cause lookingat this stuff sure as hecks is booooring.


Technoidiot


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08-04-2010, 10:16 PM


Jan 2008Maryland

403

#7


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Time to wrap this thing up; I'm not writing a book here!! Blah blah blahtext and pictures copyright 2010 blah blah blah.

Slide time. I really have no idea how this part was made. I've read thatthe whole thing was stamped and the sides were bent down. I don't seehow that would work but I am no machinest/engineer. It looks to me likethe top of the slide is bar stock and the sides, while they may beindividually stamped out, were brazed or welded to the top bar. Then themachined rear insert was attached and the front insert/sight wasattached. That's only a guess. Tell me what you guys think. It has adecent amount of machine work done to it. This includes but is not limitedto the grip serrations, fitting for the breechblock, drilling out for thecrosspin, milling out the track for the lug on top of the barrel block, fitting

the front insert and just generally polishing the whole thing up to make itpretty. Enough gabbing...time for pictures. This first one shows the slotthat engages with the right slide rail. Not much to see and it looks prettystandard. Of course, there is one on the left side of the slide too but Ididn't take a picture as it's essentially identical. I see some crud in there!!I usually keep my stuff much cleaner than this!

Member

wilhelm


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Here, we are looking up into the rear of the slide. On the right you can seethe rear insert. On this example, it is held in place by one screw.Apparently, they later nixed the screw and used two pins instead. Whytwo? There is no apparent stress here. The only answer I can come upwith is why not? Moving left, we can see the pin that holds the

breechblock in its place as the slide reciprocates. I have read that this pinstiffens the slide and I'm sure that it does. But the sides of this assemblyare pretty substantial already. I think the main purpose of the pin is tokeep the breechblock from getting squirrely. This pin, while passingcompletely throught the slide, is invisible from the outside because it wasnicely polished after being inserted. Next we see the serial number whichhas superimposed itself on the breechblock and an "L" inspection mark.And finally, we see the beginning of the slot that engages with the barrellug.


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Here we see that slot in its entirety. Not much to say other than themilling marks are appalling. I have a Steyr Model 12. It shows exactlyzero machining marks inside the slide. Get with the program Franzy!!


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Here is the inside front of the slide. The entire front of the slide bar isrounded out to make room for the recoil spring. Clearly seen is thebottom of the block that fits up into the slide bar. This block terminates onthe outside of the slide as the nonadjustable front sight. As I said earlier,no brazing or welding is apparent. This whole thing is held in by a single

pin. Later in the production run, a second pin was added. I think this wasdone for rigidity.


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Here is the front of the slide. If you look closely, you can see a curved linewhere the insert and slide bar meet.


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Right side showing crack where insert and bar meet. We talked about thisearlier when we looked at the left side while it was still mated with thebarrel and recoil spring.


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These next two show the front sight from above. This area was polishedafter assembly in order to hide the seam where the insert and bar meetbut if you look closely, you can still see it.


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Here is a shot of the left side of the slide. Not much to say. notice how


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there is no ejection port on the Jager. As the slide moves to the rear, bothsides open behind the barrel block and you can see right through thepistol.

Here is the barrel with the recoil spring at rest. It is a pain in the buttocks

getting the slide back over the barrel because there is nothing to capturethe front of the spring as you compress it. It just wants to wiggle out toeach side and then you gotta' start over.


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Here is a shot of the barrel assembled between the side plates. I rotated itdown as far as it would go in order to show why the second pin isnecesssary. I can't believe they didn't think of this before seriesproduction began. Tilting barrel + slide trying to move in straight line =bad things. Notice my fingerprint over the word "Jager". I'm such a

dirtball!


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Here we have the whole mess partially assembled. It's like a damnchinese puzzle box I tell you!! On thing is for sure. This design representssome serious out of the box thinking...even by todays standards. It'seasy to see why it was rejected by the military. If you were a Prussianofficer, brought up under a strict regimen of discipline, tradition and

conservative thinking and you were presented this thing for evaluation,would you accept it?? I think most people would laugh.


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But somehow, it all fits and ends up back in one piece. I will be doing arange test on it before too long and I'll report my findings. Hopefully itdoesn't go KAPLOOIE!!!!

Here are two last shots showing a nice comparison of the Jager both

ready to fire and in phantom form.


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I sincerely hope someone finds all this helpful. I know it's long but I tried


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to pack as much useful information into it as I could. I also hope that youguys could follow my poor descriptions without too much difficulty andthat it all makes some kind of sense. It was frustrating for me not beingable to find information all these years and I have tried to rectify that forthe next guy who is searching. If anyone ever has any questions or needshelp in any way, please contact me. I will do my best to help. So that's allfor now. If you made it this far you are a SERIOUS Jager fan and you'reust as crazy as I am!! Thanks for reading and God bless.

Last edited by wilhelm; 08-05-2010 at 03:46 AM.

Technoidiot


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08-08-2010, 06:36 PM


Jan 2008Maryland

403

A nice gentleman asked me for some pictures with the slide to the rear.There is no hold open mechanism so I removed the recoil spring to getthese pictures. The first three show left and right side as well as a frontview.

#8

Member

wilhelm


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Here is the face of the breechblock. You can also see the little nub on therear of the ejector.


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And the other side of the ejector. You can also see the steep feed ramp.


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Here is a round ready to feed into the chamber. Notice how that crazysteep feed ramp is not really an issue. The round sits so high that it'salmost a straight feed into the chamber. I expect feeding issues to be nil.

Technoidiot


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08-08-2010, 06:58 PM


Aug 2003New Mexico, USA.

5,055

#9


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This has been a super photo essay. I admit to being a dyed in the woolJager fan, so it has been a sheer delight for me. Thank you for providingus with such splendid detail. The quality of your photos is outstanding.Very best regards,Ron

If it is made after 1918...it is a reproduction.

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Ron Wood

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08-08-2010, 07:02 PM

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Sep 2003Brazil (South

America)2,941

Outstanding photo study os a very scarce pistol.Thank you for your time and patiance to post everything.Douglas.

Last edited by Douglas_Jr; 08-09-2010 at 09:21 AM.

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Douglas_Jr

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