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Table of

Contents

Introduction Stephen K. Hayes 1

Introduction Masaaki Hatsumi 3

SECTION ONE INTERVIEWS

Chapter 1 Heritage 7

Chapter 2 Origins and Language 21

Chapter 3 A Living Art 33

Chapter 4 Bonds and Hardships 45

Chapter 5 Natural Living and Martial Friends 59

Chapter 6 The Future of Ninjutsu 71

Chapter 7 Twelve Years Later . . . 83

SECTION TWO TECHNIQUES

Unarmed Defense 100

Hidden Weapon Defense 109

Battlefield Weapon Defense 130


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21

Chapter Two

Originsand Language

IIn the autumn of 1986, my path of warrior exploration had taken

me well past my teachers Japan to the once-inaccessible mainland ofChina. I had stepped into the footprints of Toshitsugu Takamatsu morethan 60 years after that teacher of my teacher had made his journeysthrough Chung-Kuo, the Central Kingdom of China. I had set out tofind any remaining hints of the vast and legendary Chinese warrior past

against which Toshitsugu Takamatsu, the Mongolian Tiger, had sethimself in the rough and tumble days of China in the 1920s.

With Rumiko and our tiny daughters far away and safely at homein Ohio, I awoke at dawn to see the mists rise from the surface of thePearl River as it drifted timelessly through old Canton. Up and acrossthe ancient sleepy landmass of China, I made my way northward toChengdu, homeland of Chinese bamboo forests, wild pandas, andscreaming golden monkeys. As each mile passed, it becameincreasingly heartbreaking to realize that few of the original martial arttraining halls and temples had made it through the hysterically violentand self-destructive insanity of what the Chinese called their Cultural

Revolution in the late 1960s. So very little of what I had seen was leftover from the days of the young wandering warrior Takamatsu.

From Han China, I had made my way up and onto the TibetanPlateau. From a base in Lhasa, capital of Tibet, I explored themonastic holds of Sera and Drepung, former strongholds of theTibetan Buddhist monastic tradition. Once virtual cities of holy menwith resident populations numbering in the thousands, the monasticfortresses were now mere ghosts of their former selves with onlydozens of monks where once lived thousands.


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Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster

This had been my secondtrip to the rooftop of theworld. I had traveled to theHimalayas the year before aswell. Years before, my

teacher Masaaki Hatsumihad suggested that the rootsof Japans ancient ninjalegacy stretched far pastChina and on out along thelegendary Silk Road tradingroute. Once again, this yearI had arranged to ventureinto the awesome stretchesof the Himalayas of Tibet insearch of that which had

fascinated me since my ownpreschool days.

I continued across Tibet,visiting what was left of thebastions of the once-powerful Tibetan monastic tradition. Myquestions about the battling dop-dop fightermonks of pre-communist Tibet brought littlemore response than wistful smiles from most ofthe few remaining Tibetan monks. The twoaged veterans I was able to locate were hesitant

to discuss their past. Many of the brotherhoodhad been gunned down by the invadingChinese in the 1950s for knowing too muchabout physical protection of their homeland,their loved ones, and the timeless truths of theirBuddhism. Perhaps it was the novelty of at lastbeing approached by someone interested in thelegacy of the Tibetan monk combatants, orperhaps it was more due to spite for theoccupying Chinese, who are struggling toappear so humane and civilized in a search forprofitable trade after so many years of brutality,but at last the two finally acquiesced. In thedim light of yak butter lamps and incenseclouds, I was given the requested insights intothe combat tactics of a forgotten Tibetsfearsome dop-dop fighter monks.

From Tibet I went on to Nepal and thencontinued on to India. In India, I had made myway up to mountaintop Dharamsala,

government-in-exile center of Tenzin Gyatso,His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet.While there, I was able to meet withrepresentatives of the Tibetan exile population.My interviews had ranged from militantmembers of what remains of Tibetsunderground resistance forces to the director

of the Tibetan Medical Institute to HisHoliness the Dalai Lama himself.

Once referred to as the divine king of 6million Tibetans, the Dalai Lama is indeed acommanding figure in person. Having beenforced to flee his own native land in 1959 afterChinese troops shelled his summer residencefollowing the Tibetan peoples abortive attemptat protesting the brutally oppressive Chineseoccupation, Tenzin Gyatso has maintained hisresidence in northwestern India. He must atthe same time live the life of a devout Buddhistmonk seeking to aid the spiritual enlighten-ment of the world, while also working as anable political figure in the cause of attainingnational freedom for his now enslavedmountain kingdom.

Hatsumi Sensei is in the kitchen of hisbettaku, preparing more hot water for our tea.I pull a dark-brown paper bag from beneath

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Stephen K. Hayes on the roof of the Tsulagkang Central Cathedral in Lhasa, Tibet,

with the Potala fortress of the Dalai Lama in the background.


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my notebooks and place it on the table infront of me. The bag is imprinted with Indianand English characters across its front andcontains myomiage (greeting presents) formy teacher. These presents, given whenever

returning from a trip or, in smaller scale,whenever visiting someones home in Japan,are a crucial social lubricant not to beoverlooked in importance when working atmaintaining a relationship.

Characteristically, my eccentric teacherseems to place very little importance on thispresent-giving ritual. As I have discovered overyears of being around Masaaki Hatsumi, heseems almost proud of his contrary nature thatenjoys foregoing things sacrosanct to most

Japanese in favor of a more internationalmindset and behavioral style. This refusal to beclassified as a Japanese, preferring to be seenas having no country and no limits to hisfreedom, once prompted the grandmaster tolabel himself a UFO, a walk-in here on thisplanet from a distant place and time.

A seeming indifference to receivingcustomary gifts notwithstanding, I neverthelessalways keep my eyes open for suitable presentsfor this man for whom it seems so difficult to

choose gifts. What do you give the man whose

home is already overflowing with decoratorcurios, artwork, books, and what might be oneof the worlds most extensive private collectionof historical Japanese weapons, manuscripts,and scrolls?

Hatsumi Sensei returns to the room with afresh kettle of hot water for tea. I use themomentary interruption to slide the darkbrown paper bag across the table andannounce that it contains a few small giftsfrom my trip through the Himalayas. Curious,the grandmaster peeks inside. Interestingly,instead of lifting the bag for a better view, helowers his head to allow his sight to penetrateits opening.

I pick up the bag and pull out a huge iron

Tibetan door lock key on a long thick leatherstrap. I explain to Dr. Hatsumi that it is a keyto one of the old locks of Sera monastery andwas used as one of the standard fighting toolsof Tibets dop-dopwarrior monks. Along thelines of the ninjas kusari-fundoweighted-chainweapon as used in the grandmasters trainingmethod, the heavy key could be whirled andslung out at targets and then quicklywithdrawn. Seemingly pleased with the unusualgift, he jots a few details about the key weapon

in his notebook and looks up again.From the brown bag, I

withdraw a folded white silkscarf and drape it over myteachers neck in the Tibetantradition of greeting aspecial person. The scarfitself is strictly a symbolicadornment. Lightly dustedwith powder and so finelywoven as to be almosttransparent, the Tibetankhata could never be wornas a garment for holding inwarmth. I explain theTibetan scarf custom toMasaaki Hatsumi andfurther explain that thisparticular scarf is a specialpresent for him, having been

Origins and Language 23

The Dalai Lama of Tibet autographs a book of his for Stephen K. Hayes.


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blessed by His Holiness the Dalai Lamahimself.

I am pleasantly surprised at just howpleased my teacher seems to be at receivingthe scarf. He gets his camera and has Rumiko

take several snapshots of me placing the khataover his shoulders. He comments that heconsiders this scarf as some sort of superbomen of very positive things to come in thefuture. Folding the scarf and placing it on thetable beside him, the grandmaster reaches outand turns on the tape recorder.

MH:What a remarkable person you are,Hayes-san. You were able to publish your novel

Tulku, all about the invasion of Tibet and the

escape of the Dalai Lama, and then on top ofthat, you were actually able to get an audiencewith the real Dalai Lama himself. Your fictionwas your bridge to real-world accomplishment.I feel very honored to be given this gift scarffrom the Dalai Lama just because I am yourteacher. I feel very grateful. I would like tosend him a letter of thanks and a painting ofmine as a present for his kindness to you.

SKH:Years ago, you told me one time thatthe roots of the Japanese ninja tradition

stretched far beyond China to the Silk Road andthe Himalayas. Wherever the Buddhist traditionwent, you told me, the warrior arts flourished asa means of protecting the enlightenmentteachings from eradication by the enemies ofthe faith. You also mentioned that you wouldlike to speak with the Tibetan lamas. Do youremember that conversation we had?

Well, you are thesoke, and sometimes thegrandmaster has to rely on his students tofulfill things that his duties might prevent himfrom doing. So I went off to try to meet theDalai Lama of Tibet, as suggested by you. Ialso considered it a test of my own powers ofresourcefulness. What a challenge, huh? Aninterview with the god-king of Tibet? I like tobelieve that our art relates to power at alllevels, not just physical combat techniques.Power, in all its manifestations, is a fascinatingtopic of study.

MH: I am told that somebody wrote anarticle in an American martial arts magazineclaiming that I do not have much power in mytechnique. Of course, that individual does notknow me at all. But thats okay. Its to beexpected. Only the ones who really know whatthis art is will be able to appreciate it. I thinkthats the way a man should live. Those who donot understand the essence behind why weteach the way we do will get themselves killed.This is very important. This is the sense thatyou must have. Do not get attached to the ideaof going through life elegantly and proudly.Walk simply. Walk honestly and directly. Dontstrut through life like ayakuza street punk.

For that reason, Takamatsu Sensei told methat the goal is to become a tatsujin(completely actualized human being), a totalbeing. What I want to say here is, if you look

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Tenzin Gyatso, His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet, holds

books given to him by Stephen K. Hayes.


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like a martial artist, someone trained in how tofight, thats the end for you. Its especially truenowadays with guns so commonplace. If youlook like you are a real threat to someone, hecan just pull out a gun and blow you away. Itsso easy to take the life of anyone, even onewho struts around boasting about his so-calledhigh rank in the martial arts. Having thoughtsof fighting all the time, having animal-likethoughts all the time, if those are the onlythoughts a person has, he will end up deadbefore his time. He will be destroyed easily.

SKH: Its very difficult getting that acrossin America. If you dont strut around and playthe role of the cartoon tough guy, the publicjust goes blind to any real martial skills youmight have to teach. I see it as a real weakness,a dangerous weakness. If the goal is self-protection, the worst thing to do is goad on the

world by boasting to everybody about howmuch tougher than them you are.

MH: Getting caught up in a set way ofhaving to move, do things, or respond shouldbe seen as a danger to a martial artist. Very

valuable Japanese cultural treasurestake theKinkakuji Golden Pavilion for exampleareextremely vulnerable because of their specificform and expected appearance. If theKinkakuji is severely damaged or burns to theground, that is the end of that treasure. Peoplecould not accept a modified or altered or newKinkakuji. Because everyone knows what toexpect, if the landmark is altered even slightly,the tourists would know that something iswrong. Anything that must have a specific

shape or form can easily be ruined forever.Thats why I want my art to be formless.

SKH: I agree wholeheartedly. But it ishard getting that across. It shouldnt be hard;you would think it is common sense. But it ishard getting that across to so many martialartists in America.

MH: The problem starts when you thinkthat you can convince everybody, Hayes-san.Each individual is different. He has his ownway of thinking. Just like there is day and

night, human beings are divided into basictypes. One type may work better by day; othersmay work better by night. Some have highblood-pressure problems and some have lowblood-pressure problems; in between there isthe normal one.

RUH:A lot of our fundamental techniqueshave names in the historical scrolls. Somenames are very difficult to figure out. Howwere they named?

MH: In the old days?RUH:Yes.MH:Japanese written characters are

unique, and each character has its ownmeaning. For example, there is a technique wecall Koyoku. The ko portion can translate aseagles talon. It is also possible that themovement may look like the feeling presentedin the written characters making up the name.

Hicho is literally translated as flying bird.



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But in its martial art application, perhaps thisis not always the most appropriate way to thinkof it. Ostriches do not fly. There is a moresubtle way to interpret it. When people hear areference to hicho no kamae posture or hicho

technique, and if they can read Japanese, theywill imagine a technique that has something todo with leaping or flying. Doesnt that makesense to you? When you write it down, it readsflying bird. But the technique itself is notreally like that, is it?SKH: Ive often wondered about that

myself. Why does the technique called flyingbird involve no leaping or leaving the ground?MH: There are so many different kinds of

birdsbirds that swim, birds that walk around,

and birds that fly. You have to take these threevery different kinds of birds into consideration.Birds are supposed to be night blind. Theycannot see at night. But an owl can. Since anowl is different from the other kinds of birds, itreceives a bad description. Night owls are

generally thought to be odd or differentpeople, right?

RUH: So you mean techniques werenamed as they were because their movementsare reflected in the name, but each name also

had so many shadings?MH:Yes, yes. But what is in the technique

is much more important than the history of thename. Do not get trapped by the literal namesthat are written in the densho (historicallytransmitted scrolls).RUH: There are so many difficult words

used as the technique names.MH:Yes. Thats true. The reason why they

used such difficult words was that in the olddays, they had to keep it secret, just in case the

scroll might be stolen. Or they purposely usedmisleading words. They might even use thecompletely opposite word. They might identifya method of attacking an adversary as adefensive technique, for example. The way ofpronouncing the written words may be the

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Masaaki Hatsumi assumes the ninja unarmed defense method Hicho no Kamae(bird taking flight) fighting posture.


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same, but different characters might be used.So if someone looks at one of the scrolls, hewill not be able to learn anything of value if hedoes not have a good teacher to initiate him. Itwill lead him to developing techniques for how

to lose instead of how to win! So learning itfrom a good teacher is the only way to knowthat you are learning it the right way.

Well, this is one of the methods behind theway they wrote the old densho. Therefore, it isso important to realize that you have to learnthis art from a properly trained instructor.SKH: Finding the right instructor is so

difficult for new students these days. There areso many phonies, so many imitation ninjamasters out there. Even the Bujinkan label is

not a guarantee of high-level training any more,now that unqualified people use your name sofreely in setting themselves up as masters.MH: Some people attempt to study this art

for a couple of years. They interpret thetechniques all wrong, and then they publishthese incorrect assumptions in the magazinesor books. It only ends up confusing the sincerepeople. Only those who can answer these kindsof questions like I do are the ones who arequalified to write about these things. So this

will be an important point for anybody whowants to write about this art or pick out goodbooks about this art for their reading.

SKH: Uh-oh! I could fall in that negativecategory with my books. I would hate to thinkthat I had misled anyone.MH: Of course not. Of course not. I am

not talking about your books when I refer tounqualified people speaking as authorities.Because I chose you to write this book withme, the public will know that you are the onequalified to write about our art in English.SKH:All kinds of rumors are flying

around now that the art of ninjutsu hasbecome so in demand in the 1980s. I had evenheard that some people over here in Japanthought that you did not want me writingbooks about this art.MH: People say that I change from

moment to moment and that I am so hard to

figure out. But when they actually sit down andtalk with me, they will realize that the bafflingway that I talk and act is a part of what itmeans to be a real martial artist. Being toopredictable is a dangerous way to live if you are

a warrior.RUH: But Japanese instructors live here

and see you often. They hear you talk all thetime. They may have some questions they wantto ask, they may have some doubts also, butthey can find an answer to those doubts orthose questions in a single word you say at thetraining hall before they even have the chanceto pose the question. So I would assume thatless misunderstanding occurs around here?

MH:No, it happens here all the time, too.

You know very well the stories of thosestudents who misunderstood and angrilywalked out even after decades of my givingthem knowledge. So I think it is not a matter ofdistance. It is not a matter of whether you arealways in the training hall. It is something thatis up to the students heart and motivations.

Tsuki kage no Moonlight and shadowsterasanu sato wa illuminate the village

nakeredomo that is no more.

nagamuru hito no Looking up at the moon,kokoro ni zo sumu the village lives on in his heart

This poem was written by Honen(11331212), who left the practice of theTendai sect of Buddhism to found the Jodosect. He was the teacher of Shinran, thefounder of the Jodo Shin Shu Buddhist sect. Ilike the feeling of that poem. I can identifywith that sentiment. I would like to live on inthe hearts of those few people who admire me,just as that village lives on in the heart of thatdisplaced person in the poem. I would be reallyhappy with that alone.

RUH:We are so pleased to have thischance to speak with you one-on-one today.We can listen to you and hear so manyinteresting stories from you. In the past, somany times we had to admit that we could notunderstand your actions.



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MH: I am sure that is true. If you have anymoments of doubt or lack of understanding inanything, just write to me without hesitation. Iwould like to say this to all the people of theworld, but I can only handle Japanese. As you

know, when language is translated, sometimescertain feelings cannot be expressed as well asin the original language. So that may be adifficulty. But as you grow to know me better,as you spend more time with me, languagebarriers gradually disappear. Sometimes mytaijutsu movementstranslate better thanan interpreter. I havenever really studiedany English, so it is

kind of strange, isnt it,that you so well under-stand my heart? Butthen, I talk with mybody. I talk with myheart.RUH:Your lan-

guage is the languageof the heart.

MH: I think thatis important.

RUH:We know anAmerican universityprofessor who studiesTendai mikkyo (esotericvajrayana Buddhistpractice) in Japan witha high-ranking Tendaiarchbishop. Our friends priest name incor-porates the first kanji character of his teachersname. Is that the way it is done here in theBujinkan dojo, too? All the master instructorsseem to have ryu (dragon) in their names, justlike the ryu in your Byaku-ryu-oh name.MH: Thats right, it is the same. Hayes-

san, let me take this opportunity here to giveyou the warrior name Kin-ryu (GoldDragon). It is appropriate for you to havethat name after passing the test of avoiding mysword from behind that time. Also, you werethe first non-Japanese person to receive my

gold dragon award medallion as well. Yourlucky number won you my gold dragonpainting at theDaikomyosai (MasaakiHatsumis annual formal birthday celebrationbanquet) the night before you passed thego-

dan 5th-degree test. From now on, you shoulduse the name Kinryu.RUH: Ninja were referred to by different

names. There is the wordshinobi. Histor-ically, when did this word come into use todescribe ninja?

MH: Otomo Sainyuonce said that they useddifferent kanji to writethe characters.

RUH:What did

they write? What werethe kanji?MH:At the time of

Shotoku Taishi, in thelate 6th century, thewords were writtendifferently but stillpronouncedshinobi.Shino biwas written a longtime ago with the kanjicharacters that mean

secrets of intention, orto employ the ability ofwill. That is one theoryof how this old-style

shinobiwas used todescribe the originalhistorical ninja.

Another theory is that there were wordslikeshinobi-komu (to sneak in) orshinobi-gaeshi(to conceal oneself atop a roof or wall and fromthere gather information or attack the enemyfrom above). Since the people who were latercalled ninja were skilled at these methods, itlater developed that thisshinobi from thesewords came to mean the persons we describeas ninja today.

In the beginning, the names of many of theninjutsu traditions and lineages came from thenames of the regions in which they operated.Ninja from the Iga area were calledIga no ninja

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Japanese written character for nin of ninja or

ninjutsu, also pronounced shinobi.


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orIga no mono.Also, it must be rememberedthat the names used within the actual ninjagroups themselves had to be held onto ashighly protected secrets, so they were notalways known by outsiders. Outsiders rarely

ever knew the family names of the ninja, sothey simply referred to them as ninja fromIga, or ninja from Koga, and so forth.Sometimes the regions from which theyoperated were much more familiar to everyonethan the family names themselves. This is stillvery much the practice for Japanese peopleliving in the country. People are identified bythe areas in which they live rather than byname. So I would assume that is how the namestarted. There is no definitely established

theory on when this wordshinobi first cameinto use. There are so many theories.RUH: This is a question that we are asked

often by students. They say they hear a lotabout Togakure ryu, but they do not hearmuch about Kumogakure ryu, or the otherninja ryu in our history. Is there anything youcan say about the other ryu?MH: There is a theory that the fundamental

base for the ninja fighting method is Gyokko ryukoshijutsu,which was adapted in Japan from an

older original Chinese fighting system. It is myfeeling that this Gyokko ryu method was notsimply transplanted whole to Japan. It wasabsorbed and adapted to relate with theindigenous Japanese fighting methods of theperiod. Then this koshijutsu (fighting methodtranslated as body-weapon artkoshi canrelate to fingers or toes, hand or foot) was laterexpanded upon and evolved into the Japanese

koppojutsu (fighting method translated as body-frame artthe body in motion breaks theenemys bones and knocks him down).According to Takamatsu, ninja from Iga andKoga areas mastered koshijutsu and koppojutsu asa part of their combat training. As you know, ifyou cannot properly do taijutsu, there is no wayyou can do sword or spear techniques either.

RH: Do you ever label the techniques forthe students, so that they know whichhistorical tradition produced which method?

MH: The reason why we do not pay a lotof attention to the specifics of each ryu isthat we are studying all nine systems in amanner that produces one set of internalizedskills in our student. Of course, each of the

historical ryu did have its own characteristicpoints. For example, the Togakure ryu ofninjutsu handed down its ninpo taijutsu, alongwith some secretly developed tools andweapons, such assenban (four-pointedthrowing blades),shinodake (thin bamboounderwater-breathing tube), andshuko(climbing claws). These were distinctiveweapons exclusive to the Togakure ryu.

What is distinctive about the Kumogakureryu is a similar form oftaijutsu, along with

kamayari (sickle spear). That was their secretweapon. They also had a special tree climbingmethod known as ippon sugi nobori for going upstraight cedar trunks. That special climbingtool was also used as a weapon, along the orderof our kusari-fundoweighted-chain flail.RH: So the principles of the combat

training in each ryu-ha overlapped somewhat?MH: It might help if I explain this all in

simple terms. Basically, the ninjas hand-to-hand fighting method was taijutsu, sometimes

referred to as koshijutsu, sometimes daken-taijutsu, oryawara, or evenjujutsu. The termschanged and varied as the years went on.Sometimes it was called koshijutsu or koppojutsuor onlyte (literally translated as hand,implying hand-to-hand). So the basic corewas taijutsu, and after they had masteredtaijutsu they learned to employ the specialweapons of their style or system.

In the taijutsu training of each specifictradition, there may be slight differences inbody postures or the names given to specificfists, but if I were to classify it technique bytechnique now and try to teach it that way, itwould be an enormous task for the students.Therefore, right now, the Togakure ryu(originally established at the beginning of theKamakura period in 1185) is representative ofthe entire collection of nine ryu. Even thoughwe refer to our training system as being based



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on Togakure ryu combat techniques, we may infact be using a method from Kumogakure ryu.If there is a strong enough demand to classifythese methods individually, I could do it in thefuture. But the basic principles and methods

are the same.SKH: I suppose it is a matter of whether a

person is studying this art as an intellectualhistorian or as a practitioner who intends toput the teachings to work in his life.Sometimes, I think some of the students canget too caught up in the technical details andlose the essence of the feeling behind thetechnique. To me, the results are what counts,not the mere technique itself.

MH: In the old days, they used to use a

flint-and-steel striker to light a fire, but todaywe can use a (butane) lighter. It is the samewith the history of what you are studying andteaching as your martial art. Dont make itmore complicated than it needs to be. At thesame time, it should be remembered that you,for example, Hayes-san, are built differentlythan Oguri-san or me. Each person isdifferently structured. Therefore, each willcreate a method of movement that best suitshim. I was given the title ofsoke, and just like

there is one Picasso in the world, there is onlyone Masaaki Hatsumi. After Picasso died,there was no Picasso. Though there is only onePicasso, there are others like Chagall,Gauguin, and so forth. So I am in search of thekind of students who can reach the same level Ihave but as unique artists in their own right.

This is the way I feel. It is not necessary foryou (or anyone) to be too concerned withcataloguing this technique or that. It issufficient to think of all our training as theBujinkan dojo method. Since the basicprinciples are all the same, the fundamentalsare the same. The grip of the sword might beslightly different, certain techniques might beslightly different, names of techniques may bedifferent; but sometimes even though thenames are different, the movementsthemselves are similar. I hope this will be asatisfactory answer. I would like to add that

after this it is up to the individual student togain more knowledge.RUH:We are asked by people whether you

possess any scrolls from our nine lineages, andwhether you would be willing to show those

scrolls to anyone who wanted to see them.MH: Sure. Of course. I can show them

the scrolls.SKH: Donn Draeger, a well-known

American martial arts book writer, would onlyrefer to you as a ninjutsu historian. He evengot your name slightly wrong in his ninjutsubook. A nice sarcastic touch, I thought.Anyway, he indicated to me once in a privateconversation at the Tokyo Budokan that unlesshe could see the actual Togakure ryu scrolls, he

could not believe that our ryu was an authentichistorical entity.MH: (Pleasantly) Oh? Really? He did?SKH: Donn Draeger wrote a little book on

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ninjutsu, which was actually a collection of someof the Japanese childrens ninja legends and arough translation of the espionage chapter fromthe Sun Tsu Chinese war treatise. It wasnt whatI have come to know as authentic ninjutsu.

Anyway, his book has been read by manypeople, and that is why they may have come upwith these questions about the scrolls. They allwant to know about the scrolls. Is there a scrollrelating to each of the nine ryu-ha?MH:Yes, I have them. I even have many

makimono scrolls from martial arts ryuwithwhich we are not associated at all. But what youhave to consider as most important here is thata makimono could in a way be compared with abank check. There is a signature and an amount

written there, but how much is that check reallyworth? How much is in the bank to back upthat check you have in your hand? Even thoughyou may have those scrolls, if you dont haveenough training and knowledge to interpret thescrolls, you dont have much money in youraccount, your checks will not be worth much.What I mean is that unless the person wholooks at the scrolls is really trained in the art, hewill have no idea of the scrolls value.

That is the essence of the Japanese martial

arts makimono scroll. What is written in amakimono are certain key points only. Thosekey points, those cryptic highlights, those fewcarefully chosen words expand in meaning tothe reader who knows what he is looking for.Even if the scrolls are stolen, or somethinghappens to the scrolls, they will not make anysense to those persons who have not beeninitiated. Its like giving money to a cat; the cathas no way of appreciating or using it.

At the same time, as you know becauseyou have been teaching this art for manyyears, some martial arts scrolls were destroyedduring the war, or some were burned in housefires. Because of cases like that, some scrollshad to be rewritten. The person who had torewrite them had to rely on his memory alone,and he put down the things that he thoughtwere important.

SKH: A martial arts scroll of authority,

handed from one master to the next, is more inthe form of an icon, then.MH: Scrolls are considered to be sacred,

and I agree. Just like an American flag isconsidered to be sacred, even though it is just a

symbol, I think the true makimono is a sacredobject. Therefore, luckily I was given all thosescrolls by Takamatsu Sensei, and if anybodyasks me to show them, I will be happy to dothat at any time. I also have a lot of otherhistorical martial arts scrolls in my collection aswell, such as the scrolls of the Kimura ryu andShin Kage ryu. Occasionally, old scrolls are soldthrough antique dealers or bookstores thatspecialize in that kind of old manuscript. But Ican well see what the scroll wants to say. The

smell of the ink, the shape and quality of thecalligraphy reveal the writers personality andlevel of advancement in skill as a martial artist.I can see all that through their writing and eventhe quality of paper they used. Surely, thescrolls are important things.SKH:Where do you get all these scrolls

that are not a part of what you were given byTakamatsu Sensei when you became the heir tohis martial traditions?MH: I have many, many scrolls in my

personal collection. Besides the scrolls given tome by Takamatsu Sensei, I have also madequite a collection of those scrolls from othermartial lineages. I am in touch with a lot ofantique dealers and book shops, and purchasescrolls from all over Japan. Just feeling andlooking at the scrolls, I can sense what kind oftechniques the art embodied, what kind ofskills were possessed by the writer. I look at thescrolls that way. Does this help? Is this whatyou wanted to hear?

RUH:When ninjutsu was coming intobeing, there was strong influence from religionand spiritual practices. I heard thatshugendohad an influence on the development ofninjutsu. What is your opinion on this?MH:As you know, our Kukishin ryu

developed in the Kumano area. There, theAmatsu Tatara Hibun document is stillpreserved to this day. I read through and



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interpreted the entire volume. Also I was givenall related materials along that line byTakamatsu Sensei. The old-timeshugenja(spiritual pilgrims) walked about themountains with theirshakujo-ringed staff and

trained in their martial arts. This is one theory.Religious missionaries had to be strong to

help people. Daruma Taishi (Indian Buddhistteacher Bodhidharma, said to have introducedthe practice of martially related physicalexercises and Zen meditation principles toChinese monks in the early 6th century) wasthat way, too. He was said to be good atbojutsu. Combat tools were a part of what wasimported along with meditation andvisualization methods.

There are different kinds of religion,depending on which part of the country youexplore. On the Tendai Buddhist sects HieMountain, there weresohei (monk soldiers),and on Kuki Mountain, there were Kuki

shugenja. I would say that if there was anydirect influence on the art of ninjutsu, it wasfrom the Kukishugenja. There could have beenan influence from the Dewa Sanzan, the threeholy mountain peaks of Yamagata Prefecture,in which the Haguroshugenja trained. On Hie

Mountain, there was Buddhist influence fromthe monk soldiers, as I mentioned.

There were some samurai who becamefarmers after losing in battle, so they really werenot just simple plain farmers. In the old times,bushiwarriors were usually engaged in farming,and when there was an emergency, they werecalled into action as samurai once again.

Wasnt that the same in Vietnam, too?Those people were farmers but became soldiersout of necessity. There is a theory that ninja

were farmers, but it would not be correct tomistakenly imagine them as peasants. Alsothere is the theory that ninja were merchants.Omi shonin, the merchants of Omi, now ShigaPrefecture, are a good example. They

presented themselves as merchants. Theytraveled all over the country selling theirmerchandise, often medicines, but that wasjust a cover story. In actuality, they weregathering information. So there is no onesingle established theory as to just exactlywhere the ninja phenomena came from.

RUH: So these religious and spiritualtraditions were a part of all that led up to thedevelopment of ninjutsu as its own inde-pendent warrior art?

MH: Think of the ninja as ourfoundation. Dont try to put theshugenjaahead of the ninja historically. You will not bemistaken if you think that there were theninja, and then theshugenja appeared in thestory. In the same way, there were the ninja,and then the Buddhist influence becamestrong in Japan. So mikkvo is considered to bean influence that arrived after the originalninjutsu concept was formed. The ninja didnot emerge from mikkyo as their establishing

source. If you put ninjutsu behind mikkyo inthe timeline of history, then you will bespeaking from the monks point of view of thestory. Is this understandable?

RUH:Just because there was the practiceof shugendo going on at the same general timeand area, it doesnt mean that shugendo wasthe source for ninjutsu. There were, however,some elements of shugendo in the ninjas arts.MH:Yes, yes. Thats right. Thats a good

way to look at it.

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