silvia cattori interviews gilad atzmon

8/4/2019 Silvia Cattori Interviews Gilad Atzmon

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Silvia Cattori Interviews Gilad AtzmonGilad Atzmon talks about his latest book The Wandering Who?

Gilad Atzmon somehow manages to express his thoughts,ignoring any recognised taboos or restrictions. His style isinnovative, fresh, and consistently well informed. We have readwith great interest his latest book The Wandering Who? A Studyof Jewish Identity (*). It is a very moving account that should beread by many.

Silvia Cattori: The Wandering who? What stands behind thisprovocative title?

Gilad Atzmon: The Wandering Who? attempts to search for adeeper understanding of Jewish culture and Jewish identity


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politics. It is there to tackle some issues most of us prefer to

avoid. Three years ago Israeli historian Shlomo Sand published

his ground breaking work on Jewish history, thus dismantling

the phantasmal Jewish historical narrative.

In my book, I attempt to take Sands quest one step further and

elaborate on the problematic Jewish attitude towards history, the

past , and temporality in general. Five years ago American

academics Mearsheimer and Walt published an invaluable study

on the Israeli Lobby in the United States [1]. I again try to pick

up their research where they left off. I try to explain why

lobbying is inherent to Jewish politics and culture.

Two decades ago, Israel Shahak published his crucially

important study of the Talmud, and in my work, I want to

extend his study, and grasp the deeply racist and anti-gentile

attitude that is intrinsic to any form of Jewish secular identity

politics, be it Zionism, Jewish socialism and even Jewish anti

Zionism. In The Wandering Who? I try to shake every commonperception of Jewish identity politics.

Silvia Cattori: The Wandering Who? is a very impressivetestimony. It can not be ignored, including by your opponents. I

think it can safely be said that no one before you has explained

so frankly some of the thorniest aspects of the Israeli-

Palestinian issue. Your analysis is important for anyone seeking

to understand what certain groups want to hide, and why. It

should lead people that are deliberately kept in the dark and in a

state of confusion, to see things more clearly. This includes, of

course, the so-calledprogressive circles.


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Gilad Atzmon: Thanks so much for your support andcompliments.

Silvia Cattori: However, you are stepping into a minefield. Onemay also wonder whether you are exposing your thoughts and

perspectives because, as an ex-Israeli, you feel shame.

Gilad Atzmon: That is a good point. I suppose that at a certainpoint in the past, it is true to say that I started to feel shame and

guilt. However I realised many years ago that guilt only becomes

a meaningful sensation once it is transformed into

responsibility. Unlike some of the Jewish anti Zionists whocheerfully and righteously declare not in my name, I know very

well that every Israeli crime is indeed committed in my name, in

spite of the fact that I have not lived there for many years. I am

very troubled by it.

Silvia Cattori: Does this mean that the writing ofThe WanderingWho? was a way for you to settle your personal score with the

"tribe"?

Gilad Atzmon: To be more precise, it isnt actually the tribewhich I criticise but the racially oriented sense oftribalism

which stands at the core of every form of Jewish identity politics.

Silvia Cattori: Would you say that this great overhaul wasspurred by your desire to alert mankind to what you consider tobe the real danger, i.e. the Jewish ideology?

Gilad Atzmon: I am indeed primarily concerned with theideology. I also argue that it isnt just the Palestinians that are

implicated. I am very alarmed by Jewish relentless lobbying and


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its destabilising power globally. The fact that the AJC (American

Jewish Committee) advocates war against Iran is very worrying.

But I am also monitoring the Jewish Left activism and I am very

troubled by my findings.

Silvia Cattori: Is the book an attempt to explain to your readerswhy it is so difficult to fight the Israeli policy?

Gilad Atzmon: Fighting Israel for what it is i.e. the JewishState simply means an open conflict with the strongest

lobbying power on the land. On the one hand we are

encountered by heavily funded Zionist institutions; but, on theother hand, we are chased by the so-called Jewish progressive

network that is primarily engaged in gate keeping the discourse.

And, unlike the Zionists, who operate in the open, the Jewish

anti Zionists work towards the same goals, but operate in

clandestine settings.

Silvia Cattori: You state thatJewish power should be put at thecentre of the problem and that, at the same time, the

discourse of certainanti Zionists, that you regard as

misleading, should be challenged. When you write :Zionism is

not a colonial movement with an interest in Palestine, as some

scholars suggest. Zionism is actually a global movement that is

fuelled by unique tribal solidarity of third category members,

you call into question those who characterize Israel as mere

settler colonialism. This is indeed a crucial point. What are your

arguments for claiming that it is not simply a colonialist model?

Gilad Atzmon: Indeed, I am disturbed by the lack of intellectualintegrity and coherence within our discourse and beyond. It took


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me some time to grasp that years of Jewish (intellectual)

hegemony within the Palestinian solidarity discourse has led to

an absurd situation in which criticism of the Jewish state is

shaped primarily by Jewish sensitivities.

Try, for instance, to imagine a situation in which our criticism of

capitalism would be shaped in a deliberately over cautious

manner just to make sure that the rich are not offended.

Likewise, try to imagine another equally absurd situation, in

which our criticism of Nazi ideology would have take into

consideration the delicate sensitivities of biological determinists

and anti-Semites. It seems equally absurd that we are in such a

situation where we have to tread carefully in what we say about

Palestinian rights so as not to offend Jewish people.

And, yes, I say it openly: Zionism is not a colonial movement,

and has never been one. Colonialism establishes a clear

relationship between a mother-state and a settler-state yet

Zionism has never had a mother state. It is true that Israelexhibits some colonial symptoms, but this is where it starts and

ends. Zionism is driven by spirit of Jewish supremacy and a

phantasmal notion ofhomecoming.

The misleading colonial paradigm was introduced by a few

progressivethinkers just to make sure that Marx is not left out

of the discourse. At least intellectually, what we see here is no

more than amusing.

However, it is important to mention here, that the only

noticeable colonial aspect within the Zionist reality is the

relationships between the Israeli State and the settlements: the


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exchange there makes it clear who is the motherand who is

the settler.

Silvia Cattori: I would like to understand why advocates ofPalestinian rights still refrain from labelling Israel for what it

really is? Why do you think they are so reluctant to address the

issue of Jewish power and its disastrous political impact?

Gilad Atzmon: I think that when it comes to Israel and Jewishpowerevery humanist, including myself, has a conflict to

handle. I would formulate it as such: how can I tell the truth

about Israel, the Lobby, and Zionism and still maintain myposition as a humanist. It took me very many years to learn to

differentiate between the wheat and chaff. I learned to

distinguish between Jews (the people), Judaism (the religion) and

Jewishness (the ideology). This differentiation is not free of

problems, because, as we know, most Jews themselves do not

know where they stand on those three. Most Jews do not know

where Judaism ends and Jewishness starts.

Likewise, most Jewish anti Zionists fail to admit that they

actually operate in Jewish exclusive political cells. We are dealing

with a very peculiar political identity indeed. It is racially

oriented and deeply racist. It is supremacist, yet it is saturated

with victimhood. This identity conveys a universal image yet in

truth, it is driven by tribal interests.

In my writing however, I restrict myself to issues to do with

Jewish ideology (Jewishness). I try to grasp that unique sense of

chosen-ness and observe how it comes into play within politics,

culture and practice. It is obvious that, for the time being, there


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are no intellectual tools to restrict criticism of ideology. And this

really means that my detractors are pretty much left in a

hopeless situation they do not posses the intellectual means

to silence me or my criticism, so instead, they revert to smearcampaigns: they label me an anti Semite, a Neo Nazi, a

racist, and so on. Tragically enough for them, no one out side

of the Jewish political circuit takes any of these empty

accusations at all seriously anymore.

Also, I would like to mention that the notion ofJewish Power

could be confusing and misleading: it needs elaboration. When I

discuss Jewish Power, I am strictly referring to the ability of

Jewish interest groups to mount political pressure. And it is very

important to realise here, and I must emphasise that Jewish

power is not at all a conspiracy. It is explored in the open

through organisations that are set to mount pressure and serve

Jewish interests. Such groups are AIPAC, AJC, CFI, LFI, and so on.

Zionists are open about, and proud of their lobbying powers.

They brag about it they enjoy seeing the American joint

house sitting and standing submissively for PM Netanyahu.

Silvia Cattori: It is easy to grasp and I agree with you when youassert that Israel and Zionism represent a unique project in

history [2] and that the relation between Israel and the Jewish

lobby is also unique. But when you and others suggest that it is

Jewish power which needs to be confronted, the Jewish left,Jewish intelligentsia, Jewish organizations for peace, etc., go out

of their way to stop you. Does it mean that these groups also

form part of what you callJewish power?


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Gilad Atzmon: Absolutely, or at least they are part of theproblem. In my book I make it very clear that there is a complete

ideological continuum between Zionism and the so called Jewish

antiZionism or Jewish left in general.

I differentiate between Jewish anti Zionismwhich is in most

cases driven by Jewish tribalism and would care primarily for the

Jews, and anti Zionists who happen to be Jewish. The latter is a

totally innocent category. Needless to say that many of my

supporters happen to belong to the latter group.

Jewish anti Zionism is there to deliver an image of pluralismwithin the Jewish Diaspora discourse. For some reason you will

see twenty Jewish anti Zionists destroying a Jewish philharmonic

concert but you wont see those same activists coming to

support a Palestinian concert a week later. In short, their anti

Zionism is not much more than a Jewish internal affair.

Silvia Cattori: The issue of lobbying also appears absent fromthe bookGaza in Crisis by Chomsky and Pappe [3]. Is it a

surprise for you?

Gilad Atzmon: Not really as we know Chomsky was verycritical of Mearsheimers and Walts study of the Israeli Lobby. I

am not familiar with Pappes views on the matter. As far as I am

aware, he refrains from commenting on the Lobby. I guess that

we cannot expect everyone to comment on everything all the

time.


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Silvia Cattori: Given its influence and its ability to steer thepositions of the Palestinian solidarity movement, thisJewish

left must represent a big headache for someone like you.

Gilad Atzmon: I wouldnt say that it is a big headache it ismildly noisy in the background. It is like having a fly in the

room. It is a nuisance but it is not going to kill you. However,

there are two ways to deal with it to squash it with an old

Guardian paper, or, to open the window and lead it out. I prefer

the second option. It is certainly far more humanist.

It is becoming clear that those elements within the Left that aredominated by Jewish ideology have clearly made themselves into

irrelevant factors in this conflict or the discourse.

The Left that failed to grasp the anti imperialist impact of Islam

is obviously completely detached from current world affairs. It is

not a secret that the Jewish left opposed Hamas, and still does.

It is not a secret that the Western Left is confused about Islam.

However, there is a big difference between Anglo American Left

that is struggling with an identity crisis and others forms of

struggles for social justice. I, for instance, am very interested in

the Spanish and Latin American attitude towards Palestine and

Islam.

Silvia Cattori: When you mentionJewish power you touch asensitive nerve. Arent you concerned with the fact that it may

bring to mind theProtocols of the Elders of Zion issue? Are you

not playing with fire here?


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Gilad Atzmon: To start with, it is obviously clear that I amsurfing near to the wind. However, considering the volatile state

of our world, someone needs to do it, and it happens to be me.

Actually, over the years I have written extensively about theProtocols Of The Elders Of Zion, and I have repeatedly argued

that questions to do with the authenticity of the Protocols are, in

fact, completely irrelevant: the grim reality depicted by AIPAC, or

Haim Saban, who speaks openly about transforming American

politics via lobbying, donations and media control is entirely

self evidential. And what about Lord Levy being the number one

British Labour Partys fundraiser, at the time this countrylaunched an illegal war against an Arab State?

It is totally clear then, that there is no conspiracy here and there

has never been one: Jewish lobbies are operating in the open

promoting what they believe to be Jewish interests. The

explanation to it all is very simple - Zionists and Israelis realised

many years ago that it is much cheaper to buy a Western

politician than buying a tank.

Silvia Cattori: A chapter of your book is dedicated to theoverwhelming power of the Holocaust, can you discuss it

further?

Gilad Atzmon: There is no doubt in my mind that themaintenance of the Holocaust is there to sustain the primacy of

Jewish suffering at the centre of every possible political

discussion. With this heavy cloud over our head, we are not

going to be able to respond properly (ethically) to the crimes

committed by Israel in the name of the Jewish people. Hence, I

do believe that the Holocaust must be stripped of its religious


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status or primacy in general. It must be discussed openly and

treated as a historical chapter. I believe that this will happen

soon and I am very proud to be amongst those who lead the

discourse in that direction.

And once again, my principle detractors on that front are not the

Zionists, but actually the so called Jewish antiZionists. This

week we are holding a conference in Freiburg Germany in which

we plan to elaborate on Freedom of Speech in the context of

Germany, Israel and Palestine. As one would expect, Jewish anti

Zionists have been leading the futile battle to dismantle the

conference they mounted pressure on the panellists and the

organisers.

Silvia Cattori: Can you give us their names?Gilad Atzmon: Among our detractors are the American antiZionist Jeff Halper ( who dwells in occupied Palestine but also

opposes house demolition ), Sarah Kershnar and Mich Levy of

the Jewish Anti Zionist Network, (who are just desperate to stop

me), Naomi Idrissi Wimborne (who openly exploits the BDS

campaign mounting pressure on Palestinian scholars,

attempting to dismantle freedom of speech), the (hardly active)

Israeli journalist Shraga Elam [4], the overwhelmingly active and

infamous Tony Greenstein, and others.

And they all operated exactly as one would expect Zionists to

behave: they smeared, defamed, labelled, they mounted

pressure, but they were totally ignored. Interestingly enough,

Zionist operators actually performed with much more dignity,

and launched a counter conference in Freiburg on the same day.


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Interestingly enough, one of the founders of the ISM told me a

while back that he much prefers to combat an Israeli soldier in a

roadblock rather than fight our so called Jewish antiZionists

detractors. I couldnt agree more.

It is a big shame: these people could have been such a great

contribution to the discourse instead of becoming just a clich

of tribal activism. Needless to say; we actually openly invited all

our detractors to come to our conference, and to present their

opposition to freedom of speech; but as you may imagine, they

failed to react positively.

Silvia Cattori: Zionism is often presented, even within the left, asa good thing besides some Zionists, like Uri Avnery, are

regarded by progressives as a positive reference. But you argue

that Zionism, portrayed initially as a secular project, was not all

that nice.

Gilad Atzmon: Early Zionism was not at all a monolithicmovement: it had more than one face and voice. We are all

aware of the dispute between Left Zionism and the Revisionists,

but there are a few other variants to Zionism that have

disappeared over the years. However, it is hard to interpret

Israeli action within a Zionist template because Israel is not

driven by Zionism any more if Zionism was created to solve the

Jewish Question, Israel has introduced new sets of questions to

do with Jewish identity, tribalism, supremacy, and so on.

Increasingly, in my writing I differentiate between Israel and

Zionism. Zionism hardly means a thing anymore to Israelis.

Zionism is largely reduced to a Jewish Diaspora discourse.


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Zionism is there to differentiate between the vast majority of

world Jews and half a dozen secular Jews who identify

themselves as antiZionists.

You mentioned Uri Avnery, I realise that some people in this

movement are critical of Avnery whom they regard as a Zionist.

Actually, I have a lot of respect for the man I think that he is

an incredible and prolific writer. We must appreciate where he

lives and what he tries to achieve. I obviously do not agree with

Avnery on certain issues but I do not have any doubt that Avnery

would engage in an open debate with me and others, and that is

a quality I really miss within our discourse.

Silvia Cattori: The Israeli left and most of the dissenting Jewishvoices clearly support theright of Israel to exist. What about

you?

Gilad Atzmon: I am not in any such position to determine whohas, and who does not have the right to exist. But I am qualified

to argue that ones existence shouldnt be celebrated at the

expense of the other. I find it hard to deal with Israeli Left, but

make no mistake; there are some elements within Israeli

dissidence that are courageous beyond words. These people are

taking a real personal risk supporting justice. I have a lot of

respect for their actions.

Silvia Cattori: When readingThe Wandering Who? one wondersif it is not just a bit Judeo-centric of you to be paying so much

attention to Jewish identity?


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Gilad Atzmon: I agree; I have spent a lot of my time dealing withthese issues in my early 30s, I started to realise that I was

deeply involved in a crime of huge scale. I left Israel because I

wanted to believe that this would be enough to liberate me, andto emancipate Palestinians of my presence.

But then I soon learned about the Zionist Lobby and global

Zionist operations. And then it didnt take long before I started

to grasp the deceitful nature of some elements within the Jewish

left network. I have never been involved in any political activity. I

have never been a party member; but this issue to do with

Jewish politics intrigued me both intellectually and ethically. I

started to read about it. I started to monitor their activity; and at

a certain stage, I started to write about it. Within a very short

time I bought myself a few enemies who actually provided me

with a deeper understanding of the Jewish political discourse.

And here we are: I produced The Wandering Who? These are

my thoughts about Jewish Identity Politics.

Silvia Cattori: By carefully reading your thoughts, one maywonder whether you avoid discussing Jewish religion just to

"protect" religion in general.

Gilad Atzmon: Indeed, that is a very subtle observation. I am nota leftist and I am far from being an atheist. I am a musician, and

I guess that this fact alone makes me into a religious, or at least

a spiritual person. When I play, I really do not know where the

notes come from. For me beauty is divine, and thus, I have a lot

of respect for believers and spiritual people.


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I have a lot of admiration for Muslims. But I also think that the

only coherent and genuine Jewish anti-Zionists are actually the

Torah Jews. I understand their argument. And as everyone can

see, they do not try to steer this movement; they instead dowhat ever they can to support the Palestinians. And they are

remarkably humble and modest. I like them a lot.

Silvia Cattori: But, in your opinion, is not Judaism just as tribalas Jewish political identity?

Gilad Atzmon: Judaism is indeed a tribal, national, and raciallyoriented religion. And yet, Judaism has it means to contain it all.Tragically enough, something went horribly wrong in the

process of Jewish secularisation and the rise of Jewish political

discourse.

Jews may have managed to drop their God, but they have

maintained goy-hating and racist ideologies at the heart of their

newly emerging secular political identity. This explains why

some Talmudic goy-hating elements have been transformed

within the Zionist discourse into genocidal practices.

Silvia Cattori: How, do you think, does nationalism come intoplay in other religions, such as Islam or Christianity is it

different from Jewish nationalism?

Gilad Atzmon: As opposed to Judaism that is tribally oriented,Islam and Christianity are universal precepts. The latter

attempted to provide an answer to humanity as a whole, rather

than maintain a single tribe at the expense of others.


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Silvia Cattori: It was very enjoyable to read you saying:"Alreadythen I somehow yearned to become a Goy or at least to be

surrounded by Goyim." What do you mean by that?

Gilad Atzmon: It is rather simple; to become an ex-Jew is tostop being chosen. It is not an easy task I still have to practice

on a daily basis.

Silvia Cattori: When visiting Israel, one wonders, how thesebunches of foreign settlers manage to feel at home there, on

stolen land. Is it simply because they are Jewish ? How do you

feel about that?

Gilad Atzmon: I was born there. I loved it there. I had a veryhappy childhood and a successful career as a young adult. It

indeed took me many years to understand that something was

wrong. I felt something in the first Lebanon War (1981). In

Lebanon I started to wonder where all these refuges came from.

Then in the first Intifada (1987) I gathered that some people out

there were extremely unhappy. In the early 1990s I was working

with a lot of Palestinians from Gaza. I then realised that my

existence in the region was entangled with an unbearable crime.

In 1994 I left Israel for good. And since 1996 I have not visited

the place. But you have to understand that Israelis do not see

the Palestinians or their plight. Chosen-nessis a form of

blindness. Israel can only see themselves. And this may well

mean that we do not have the remedy for the conflict.

Silvia Cattori: What is fascinating about you is that you seemalmost pleased to have been ostracized and accused of being an


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anti-Semite. Do not you fear the next campaign to discredit"The

Wandering Who?"

Gilad Atzmon: I believe that as things stand, those who bring upthe anti Semite label do very little except expose their deep

affiliation with Zionism and Judeo centrism.

The campaign against my book has begun already. But I also

receive a lot of support. I accept that this is my karma. By now I

know that as long as I am opposed, it only means that I am

doing the right thing. I guess that the more opposition I receive,

the more people can read into my argument.

As you probably noticed, in the old days, anti Semites were

those who didnt like Jews, Nowadays, anti Semites are those

whom the Jews hate. Some Jews out there really do not

appreciate my efforts. But the good news is that no one takes

notice of the anti Semite accusation any more. It has been over

used.

Silvia Cattori: You wrote that Israels days are numbered. Howexactly can you evaluate that?

Gilad Atzmon: Regardless of the Palestinian struggle, Israelcannot hold it together anymore. It is a morbid society driven by

relentless greed. It is on the verge of imploding. If anything, the

Jewish state has amplified the Jewish Question rather thaneliminate it. And I believe that time is ripe to admit that there

may not be a collective answer to the question. I guess that by

the time Israelis learn to love their neighbours, peace may


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prevail however, when this happens they may as well stop

regarding themselves as Chosen. They will be ordinary people.

Silvia Cattori: Thank you Gilad Atzmon. Talking with you is reallya treat.

Gilad Atzmon: Thanks so much for your attention anddedication. It is always a great pleasure to talk to you too.

Silvia Cattori(*) Gilad Atzmons New Book: The Wandering Who? A Study of

Jewish Identity Politics. Zero Books 2011.

Jewish identity is tied up with some of the most difficult and

contentious issues of today. The purpose in this book is to open

many of these issues up for discussion. Since Israel defines itself

openly as the Jewish State, we should ask what the notions of

Judaism, Jewishness, Jewish cultureand Jewish ideology

stand for. Gilad examines the tribal aspects embedded in Jewish

secular discourse, both Zionist and anti Zionist; the holocaust

religion; the meaning ofhistoryand timewithin the Jewish

political discourse; the anti-Gentile ideologies entangled within

different forms of secular Jewish political discourse and even

within the Jewish left. He questions what it is that leads Diaspora

Jews to identify themselves with Israel and affiliate with its

politics. The devastating state of our world affairs raises an

immediate demand for a conceptual shift in our intellectual and

philosophical attitude towards politics, identity politics and

history.

http://www.silviacattori.net/

silvia cattori interviews gilad atzmon

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