Proposed Gun RangeACTIONSGroup discussion on the pros and cons of allowing a shooting range to be built in Palmer Lake UPDATES 38MEMBERS

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Big thank you19 MarPam LauferfromPalmer LakeThanks to all of you who spoke up regarding the proposed gun range. I had so many objections and kept trying to put them into meaningful and politically correct words, that my time ran out; and according to Nikki, the request was pulled. Well done!Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK2REPLYKarenandKathythankedPam7Kudos4 MarJen MartinfromPalmer LakeYou are going a good job Nikki!Keep it upShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLYCindythankedJen

Gun range3 MarNikki McDonaldfromPalmer LakeI just wanted to let everyone know that I met this morning with Dan and Angela Robbins. They are pulling their request for the gun range.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKED!13REPLY6You,Jamie,Shirleeand10 othersthankedNikki

Karen StuthfromPalmer Lake3 MarI want to express gratitude to Nikki for her role in this and also to Dan and Angela, whose graciousness has allowed this to come to a conclusion without further splintering of our wonderful town.ThankRemoveShirleeandDeethankedKaren

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake3 MarI am not sure if we have to they were going in as a conditional use not permitted. That is why legally there would be no repercussions. If you want an ordinance you can come to our next council meeting under public input and make a request.ThankRemove

Dee BantafromPalmer Lake3 MarThank you so much Nikki for representing our town in this matter! Your hard work is very much appreciated. Thanks to all for your input and research. That's community at its finest. Love this little town! :-)Thanked!RemoveYou,Pat,KathythankedDee

Rebecca Angelo DukefromPalmer Lake4 MarThank you Nikki for approaching our neighbors with a conversation that lead to a peaceful conclusion. Great leadership!ThankRemoveKaren,Kathy,DeethankedRebecca Angelo

Joe CocklinfromPalmer Lake4 MarI hope that's true.ThankRemoveKarenthankedJoe

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake4 MarThank you Rebecca, I do love and care about this place and its people. I know that sometimes people don't always agree with me, but I try to do the best I can. I do appreciate your kind words.ThankRemoveKarenandDeethankedNikkiTop of Form

Bottom of Form5Outdoor Shooting Range?24 FebKathy AldworthfromPalmer LakeJust to clarify this is an outdoor shooting range, no walls, just a roof? Is that correct?Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLY17Meredith KitthankedKathy

Bill FisherfromPalmer Lake24 FebThey've said it's covered w/ a roof and baffles but open sidewalls & 20' berms so you can't see the sky. I've seen some messages about the Erie range not being enclosed - which would mean it's not a good comparison. But, I've been having difficulty finding out anything about the Erie range.ThankRemoveKathythankedBill

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake25 FebBill, were you not able to go to Erie with the group who went?ThankRemove

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake25 FebThe group is going Saturday the 1st. I will check with Bob and have him get the directions from Dan. I thought it was closed on both sides and the top and open at either end.ThankRemoveTrishthankedNikki

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake25 FebI thought they were having sides but no front or back walls.ThankRemove

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake26 Febthere is a YouTube video that actually shows a company building a no blue sky shooting range from the excavation to its completion. it did not look like anything I had imagined. the roof part is only on the shooters. I would encourage everyone to look at this video.ThankRemoveJoethankedMeredith Kit

Kathy AldworthfromPalmer Lake26 FebCan you please post the link to the video Meredith?ThankRemove

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake27 FebFrom what I gathered from the PC meeting, they are willing to do whatever We want them to do as far as the roofing. Once again it will be on Town property so we would be in control. Like I said inthe meeting having been on the council that shut down the Ben Lomand Gun Club I am no hurry to do anything rash. But, as I stated that was about 20 years ago, I would hope that they would have come a long way since then. But I don't know right now how I feel, I want to see it for my self, more importantly I want to drive through the neighborhood that is across the street and try to talk to neighbors, I would think that is how we can get a better idea of the situation. I just found out that in fact the range would hardly be visible from County Line Rd. It will be back in the trees.I guess we will find more out at the next planning commission meeting.ThankRemoveDeeandNathanthankedNikki

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake27 FebWe just need to keep in mind the roof is not there to reduce the sound. It's for safety. That could make a big difference either way. A 100% completely enclosed range would be even better but Ibelieve the applicant mentioned that would not be financially beneficial to him and his company. I don't know about anyone else but I don't care about any of that. I care about the noise, traffic congestion and the effects the range could possibly have on our beautiful little town. Still keeping an open mind to this whole thing, but it's getting harder and harder, especially since we're practically right across the way from the proposed site. I haven't seen one supporter of the range post anything on here. Should be an indication of what the citizens are saying to their elected officials.ThankRemoveShirleeandDeethankedJoe

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake27 FebJust last week..."things happen," they said!

http://www.wsiltv.com/news/local/Sheriff...ThankRemoveJoe,Karen,DeethankedTrish

Nathan LiljestrandfromPalmer Lake2 MarI understand the concerns of noise, but I'm perplexed by several comments I've heard about traffic congestion. Should we tell O'Malley's they should be closed on Saturdays in the summer because it's a stomping ground for hundreds of bikers? I don't seem to ever hear complaints about that traffic. I would love for someone to better explain their concerns in regards to additional traffic.ThankRemoveJimthankedNathan

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake3 MarDoes anyone know when the next planning commission meeting is?ThankRemove

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake3 MarYes and nothing is posted. The OCN has a planning commission meeting on March 19 but I thought I heard that there was going to be one this WednesdayThankRemove

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake3 MarMight be something posted at the post office?ThankRemoveMeredith KitthankedJoe

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake3 MarWill look later today.ThankRemove

Dee BantafromPalmer Lake3 MarI asked Toni at the Town office last week and she said it is March 19th.ThankRemoveMeredith KitthankedDee

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake3 MarThanks for letting me knowThankRemove

Dee BantafromPalmer Lake3 MarYour welcome.ThankRemoveTop of Form

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Planing Comission meeting be a member20 FebDave CooperfromPalmer LakeI am on the Planning Commission and the reason I thought this should be tabled until next meeting was that I had asked for a sound test to give everyone an idea of the sound levels to be expected. Iwill run that test next week if all goes as planned. I will not post the results until the next PC meeting. The facts are that if this can be done at under 80db it will fall into the existing zone restrictions. I don't like it being compared to clapping although that my be the most appropriate. I think it should be compared to sounds we all hear in our daily lives. I will do my best to provide this info. For those who think putting new people on Town Council will solve their problems, be careful. All of TC and the PC are volunteers and our town needs people who are dedicated and with a vision that includes stability. We all live here and love it. I don't always agree with things that happen, but I do try to see both sides. I have seen people sign up and then quit because they have to go by rules. An un-official count of the people who spoke last night 25 of which 18 were residents.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK7REPLY9Judi,Jeannine,Kathyand4 othersthankedDave

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake20 Febwhy were people who didn't live in town allowed to voice their opinions? It became very confusing to know who were residents.ThankRemove

Jim AdamsfromPalmer Lake27 FebPeople who live in surrounding areas would be included in any survey of people who are affected by a planned use development (PUD) or a conditional use permit for that zone. The geographicalboundaries of that survey, in my opinion, should include anyone that could hear the proposed gun range. That would include a large number of people from Douglas county.In addition, we may need to check to see if the gun range (noise) violates any of the terms of the Greenland open space agreement.ThankRemoveShirleeandJoethankedJim

Dave CooperfromPalmer Lake27 FebKaren; I was told that the purpose was to check items that were brought before us were legal according to the Town codes and zones and to recommend changes to make them work. DaveThankRemoveKarenthankedDave

Dave CooperfromPalmer Lake28 FebThe PC reviews items that are sent before us. We can reject it, send it to council with recommendations or recommend with no changes. If we send it to council they can pass it or turn it down. If we reject the item it can be appealed to council and passed or rejected by them. We have sent several items to them and had them turn them down. DaveThankRemoveDeethankedDave

Jim AdamsfromPalmer Lake28 FebEach Planning commissioner comes with his or her own experience, and each one approaches the position in a unique way. I see the volunteers on the planning commission give each idea that comes beforethem a thorough examination, with an eye for safety, avoiding Town liability, legality of proposals and sound city planning. As a member of the Planning Commission, I attempt to be as impartial and objective as I can be.ThankRemoveKaren,Dee,Meredith Kitand1 otherthankedJim

Mitchell DavisfromPalmer Lake2 MarThe alleged statement I cant wait to get out my guns and shoot at the new range should be viewed as a breach of ethics and a conflict of interest. The Planning Committee member by his allegedstatement demonstrated a desire for personal gain.The community managed by a local government has a legal, ethical obligation. The local government should be an advocate of the citizens it represents. Conflicts that arise should be dealt with responsibly. If not, the community government relationship is stressed. Mistrust and lack of confidence thrive. From the point of view of citizens, when an official has a conflict, does not disclose it, and does not withdraw from participating in the matter, he will be seen as being a concealed agent of whoever it is he has a special relationship with. He will be seen as selfish and untrustworthy. And, more important, the government that does not insist on him dealing responsibly with his conflict will be seen as a bunch of people who are in it for themselves and their family and friends. The entire government-community relationship suffers from the misconduct of one official. And, as everyone knows, it is rarely only one official who is at fault. There are also those who enable and those who know about the conflict, but say and do nothing.ThankRemoveKarenthankedMitchell

Nathan LiljestrandfromPalmer Lake2 MarAs another planning commission member, I don't recall anyone up front saying anything to that sort. If anyone has a recording of the last meeting, I would love to hear it. David, do you recall that comment?ThankRemoveKarenthankedNathan

Jim AdamsfromPalmer Lake2 MarI do not recall any PC member saying that.ThankRemoveKarenthankedJim

Dave CooperfromPalmer Lake2 MarI do not recall those words. I believe things often get taken out off context and get blown out of proportion. I believe both Bob and Jim recorded the meeting. Bob's are for getting the minutes correct and Jim's are get it correct for the paper. DaveThankRemoveTop of Form

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Bad Information1 MarBob GradofromPalmer LakeKaren, I understand you are on the ballot for Town Trustee. You should be putting out factual information instead of hype on this site and trying to scare the people of Palmer Lake.

The range isproposed to be open Monday - Saturday, Closed on Sunday, Hours from 10am to 6pm, daylight permitting. I don't think anyone will be out shooting automatic weapons during the star-lighting.All of this misinformation about noise and 24 hour a day weapons firing is insane. I have lived in Palmer Lake for a quarter century and would never support this issue if I had any reason to believe it would be detrimental to our quiet town.

I have to ask our voters.... do we want our town being run by misinformed people that are running for their own temporary agendas? Our current board has worked for years to bring a town that has been operating in the "Red" to a town operating in the "Black" without raising taxes, on a very limited budget.Do we really want a "new board" that considers the sale of marijuana as a long term solution over a reputable firearms business that Monument wants to keep....and is run by a local couple that have dedicated 10 years of service to our police and fire departments as Chaplains? (Not money making greedy people)

I am not in favor of recreational marijuana sales... however I am not generating lies to hurt those in favor of it. I have a lot of respect for my friends and neighbors on both sides of the issue.

I only have a couple months left as your Police Trustee. If the people of Palmer Lake approve marijuana sales, I will support it and do my best to make sure we have a good management plan.

Dan and Angela have welcomed anyone to come in to their store anytime to get factual information.I will be abstaining from voting on the issue because of my past working relationships on the police departments.

Bob GradoShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK3REPLY12Meredith Kit,Bill,NathanthankedBob

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake1 MarI appreciate hearing new facts regarding this shooting range. It is very difficult to make wise decisions when we don't have all the necessary information.ThankRemove

Joe CocklinfromPalmer Lake1 MarAre you saying that the firing range would be quiet? Now that's misinformation.

This would be a real detriment to this town. How nice would it be to be sitting out having a beer or a glass of wine at one of our fine restaurants or in your backyard listening to gunfire. You know that Bass Pro will have a fine shooting range. Indoors even.

This is a crock of epic proportions.ThankRemoveKarenandShirleethankedJoe

Karen StuthfromPalmer Lake1 MarMy goodness, Bob, I am not on the ballot for trustee. That is fact. Who misinformed you about this? You should be putting out factual information! :)

Although the hours of operation might be 10to 6 now, shooting ranges in Colorado can be open for 24 hours a day. That is fact. Should they change their hours, we might hear gunfire at any time of day or night, including during the star lighting or other events we consider important. But even 5 minutes of gun fire is too much. Imagine trying to sell your house and your realtor is having explain to prospective buyers about the constant popping....whoops, no sale!

The idea of a new Town Council is quite exciting to many in Palmer Lake. So many people I have spoken with are really excited about the idea of that. But I salute all those who have served on the Council for years as well.

The first gun range in Palmer Lake closed because of noise. Might I recommend that you discuss the issue with some of the residents with longevity who remember that time with no fondness at all?

The terrain of beautiful Palmer Lake is special and unique and the way sound travels in our environment, according to several sound engineers we have spoke with, makes it more likely, not less likely to be heard all over town and beyond.

I don't consider the sound of gun fire and the other issues attendant to the gun range as a reasonable way for the town to get in the black.

None of this is personal to Dan and Angela -- I have heard only the nicest things about them.ThankRemove

Bob GradofromPalmer Lake1 MarKaren... I am sorry, I was told that you were on the ballot. I apologize. Palmer Lake has a noise ordinance and can control the hours of operation. I appreciate your comment about Dan and Angela. They are great people with a big heart for our community. Thanks!Thanked!RemoveYou andKarenthankedBob

Karen StuthfromPalmer Lake1 MarHey no problem! We just all want the best for the town. I care so much about PL and my neighbors and quality of life here the same as all of us.Thanked!RemoveYou andBobthankedKaren

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake1 MarGood conversation on both sides. I just hope everyone remembers that while noise is perhaps the biggest factor, there are many others to consider. No amount of money is worth it if the end result isdisrupting the way of life for the citizens of our town. As far as the shooting test, come over to the proposed site and do a test. I guarantee you'll hear it from mine and my neighbors' yards. There is no way anyone can guarantee the sound will be faint until the range is actually built. Hopefully it doesn't get to that point. Thanks all for the conversation.ThankRemoveKarenandShirleethankedJoe

Joe CocklinfromPalmer Lake1 MarTests are a controlled environment. Once it's built and the noise starts it will be impossible to get rid of. Besides how much money are we talking about? Is it really worth it? Give us numbers.ThankRemove

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake2 MarI'm running for Trustee...not a newbie...having served two terms. Cindy Allen is running, she served as Trustee for 14 years. Jen Martin is running and has been a lifelong volunteer and served onPlanning Commission. Also, current Trustees running to be elected...who haven't ran in the past but were appointed. What an awesome Board we will have...especially if seasoned Trustees are combined with brand new faces and voices!!!ThankRemoveJeannineandPatthankedTrish

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake2 MarAlso, not sure the PLVFD believes there is a chaplain assigned to them as they have been tasked to find one!ThankRemoveKarenthankedTrish

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake2 Marhttp://www.wsiltv.com/news/local/Sheriff...

Noise is not the biggest concern! I would make sure the owners understand theirliability and that they carry ample insurance over these types of incidents. After it's built, and something like this occurs, there's no going back! Our trails, our lake and a local church that has been on that mountain for 40 consecutive years will be at risk. Has anyone asked El Paso County if this is okay with them in regard to the Santa Fe Trail?ThankRemoveJoeandKarenthankedTrish

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake2 MarJoe,the applicant provided an estimated amount the town would receive from the range during the last planning commission meeting. I believe those numbers will need to be reevaluated and lowered based on the new information that the Magnum shooting range will have rifle lanes available.ThankRemoveKarenandTrishthankedJoe

Kathy AldworthfromPalmer Lake2 MarHere is the video Karen referenced above:http://youtu.be/eutonWHdBiMThankRemovePatthankedKathyTop of Form

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Example Shooting Range near Erie24 FebBill FisherfromPalmer LakeLast Saturday I had to go north and tried to find the mentioned Erie gun range. It didn't Google. The cops didn't know what I was talking about when I called them. Thanks to Meredith forpicking up. Unfortunately, the address she gave me was for a not so nice air-soft range - which I found. Those people told me they must be talking about Trigger Time Gun club near Longmont. I went there and it's an indoor range. Does the exemplary range we were told about exist?Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKED!3REPLY9You,Kathy,JoethankedBill

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake25 FebBill I couldn't find anything in Erie either. Nothing that mentioned the new technology they were discussing either. Maybe they can give us the name of the specific range they were referring to?ThankRemove

Bill FisherfromPalmer Lake26 FebThe Town is having the applicant arrange our visit. It took me a few hours but I did find it. It's private and they wouldn't let me in. It was 5:00 and everyone was leaving.ThankRemoveDee,Trish,JoethankedBill

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake26 FebI understand there is a huge shooting range being constructed by the new Brass Pro Shop...Magnum Shooting Center...30,000 SF slated to open fall 2014. I wonder if the folks wanting to put this in Palmer Lake have figured that into their sales projections!?!ThankRemoveKathythankedTrish

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake26 FebFrom what I know, yes they do. However it is an indoor range, so I guess you stand behind a barrier and shoot at the target. This is totally different. From what I can find out I also think Magnum talked to them, they are very well respected in their field.ThankRemove

Jim AdamsfromPalmer Lake27 FebThe Bass range is for hand guns only, no long guns. The Tri-Lakes range is projected to facilitate not only long guns, but semi and fully automatic rifles used in police and SWAT type training. Thereis enough distance and width to accommodate long rifles and simulated urban environments for intensive training. While this is good for the range owners, and it is a big attractor for our area, the benefits to the Town seem small; that is rent, user fees and increased business taxes, relative to the huge and unpredictable cost to the Citizens if the gun range results in an audible nuisance for Town residents and our neighbors to the north and east. If we could hear it, it would have to go. The question of how loud is irrelevant. If it creates a new, audible and persistent noise, that would constitute taking away from the citizens the relative peacefulness of the Town as it is today. I am being asked to approve this project on a promise and vague assurances that there will be no problems. I need much more than a speech and a power point presentation to consider this proposal.There is a need for this type of range, but that need is not a Palmer Lake need, it is a regional need to which we are but one small part. El Paso county and the National Forest have turned a fiscal blind eye towards the needs for both a public shooting facility and for a law enforcement training facility in northern El Paso county. This is a public concern which should be addressed by our regional governments and not by a for-profit entity seeking to cash in on the situation at the expense of Palmer Lake citizens.Contact El Paso county commissioners and Town Trustees and let them know that we need a gun range and training facility in norther El Paso county, but that Palmer Lake is not available for any outdoor, open-air shooting range.ThankRemoveKathy,Dee,Joeand3 othersthankedJim

Paul BroughfromPalmer Lake28 FebMagnum Shooting Center will support rifles. From their website "The new Magnum Shooting Center will feature 24 pistol/rifle lanes, two 50-yard pistol/rifle lanes and six 100 yard pistol/rifle lanes."Members will get a free machine gun rental on their birthdays, so it looks like fully automatic weapons are allowed there to (with the proper licensing i'm sure).

http://www.magnumshootingcenter.com/TheC...ThankRemoveKarenandShirleethankedPaul

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake28 FebThanks Paul. We were told that range was strictly hand guns and no rifles.ThankRemoveKarenthankedJoe

Jim AdamsfromPalmer Lake1 MarThanks for the link. I was mis-informed about the hand guns only policy. I was amazed to see that their first advertised product was "Sound suppressors (silencers)". I did not know that silencers are legal. I always assumed that they were illegal. Does anyone know the Colorado law on silencers?ThankRemoveJoeandKathythankedJim

Joe CocklinfromPalmer Lake1 MarSo I assume you would use this firing range? Are there any other council members with a conflict of interest pushing this?ThankRemoveJoeandKarenthankedJoeTop of Form

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gun range1 MarMeredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lakemaybe I was hoping with this election we could get the change that this town needsShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLYMikethankedMeredith Kit

gun range1 MarMeredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer LakeI still feel that putting it on the ballot written in such a way to see where the majority feel about entertaining the idea of a gun range in palmer lake should be consideredno one at this timeknows what kind of noise this facility will make. apparently many know what an open range sounds like and all are in agreement that no one in town wants that for our townbut an even greater question is does the town want any kind of shooting range regardless of a noise factor.that should be the issue on the ballotonce the town has spoken and the answer is"no way" it is settled and we all get the peace we moved to palmer lake to havebut if the majority says " yes" then that is where certain restrictions will need to be placed (hours, days etc. also I would like to see a review every 90 days where local residents can complain of noise levels and the owners would have to come up with more measures to silence the noise who knows by the time people quit complaining about the noise it may end up to be an indoor facility.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLYMikethankedMeredith KitLEAD29FSurvey on trip to gun range in Erie27 FebAndy DaehnfromPalmer LakeJust trying this service out but this is a link that asks the question, "Are you going to the gun range in Erie on Saturday." It has a button to click if you plan to attend. I should get aresult on the amount of people attending and I will post the results. I have never used this before so I don't know exactly how it works, but it may be useful for other issues/ events on Nextdoor.

Click here to go to the survey:https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/TCRTWLRShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralREPLY4Mikethanked you

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake27 FebThanks Andy, I feel the more that go the better. I would think that anyone that is interested either way would want to join us. I am just curious to see what this may look like. IThankRemove

Mike CorbettfromPalmer Lake27 FebI wish I were free to join you, Nikki, but my weekends are taken with my grandson's soccer games. Being retired means my weekdays are free, but my weekends are booked solid! :-) I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone who is going has to say. If the noise issue can be addressed, then I am totally in favor of the range.ThankRemove

Andy DaehnfromPalmer Lake27 FebNo problem Nikki. I will post here if I get somewhat of a count of how many are going.Delete

Andy DaehnfromPalmer Lake28 FebWell I only had two responses to the survey. That's ok. This post probably got shuffled down the list. Nextdoor is working on a way to include polls, but there is not a timeline on when that will bedone. It would also be nice if there was a sticky feature and Nextdoor says they are working on that as well. The survey tool may be useful for other things on here. Just let me know and I will set one up. - AndyDeleteDeethanked youTop of Form

Bottom of Form7Range23 FebJen MartinfromPalmer LakeHow close is this proposed range to PD range?Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKED!1REPLY4You thankedJen

Dave CooperfromPalmer Lake23 FebMy understanding at the meeting is it will replace the existing Police Department rangeThankRemove

Jim AdamsfromPalmer Lake27 FebThe proposed gun range would be to the east of, and adjoining, the motor cross area on the south of County Line Rd.ThankRemoveJenthankedJim

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake28 FebHey everyone, by state statute an elected official is supposed to keep an open mind until everything is presented. I understand everyone is so passionate about these 2 issues. The cell tower, willprobably not go anywhere since I don't know if the variance board would even give them a variance. Especially if it is a health issue. I think if that happens we are opening ourselves to a bunch of company's wanting cell towers here. We already have an ATT tower that is 30 feet tall, on the other side of the lake. If we allow another one at 60 feet then they can come after us wanting theirs to be 60 feet. They have already asked us and Tara has told them no. It does not fit our height ordinance. The money would be nice, but not at the risk of any of our citizens.ThankRemoveKaren,Dee,Shirleeand1 otherthankedNikki

Dave CooperfromPalmer Lake28 FebThe PC should not look at an item based on revenue. Only the legality of it and most definitely not on what our personal feelings are on any given subject. DaveThankRemoveJen,Karen,Deeand1 otherthankedDaveTop of Form

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shooting range28 FebMeredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer LakeGood question hopefully with people driving up there tomorrow we will have answers.I'm from Illinois we don't allow guns but some how we have the highest homicide rate in the nation. Sodifferent shooting ranges are new to me. When the proposed owners spoke they made it sound like there was a similar range in Erie when I spoke to the mayor I never thought to ask him to describe their facility. One thing that the proposed owners mentioned was that the berm they were going to build was 20 feet not the 12 feet that most of these facilities have. I was under the impression that was the major difference in the current site in Erie and the propose site here.I am really happy that a group of palmer lake residents are going to see first hand what is there.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK2REPLYJenandMikethankedMeredith Kit7Gun club24 FebJen MartinfromPalmer LakeI am very curious to here current council votes as well and have asked for information on location of cell tower but no one seems to knowShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLY4KathythankedJen

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake25 FebThey proposed 2 sights either the fire station area or the elementary school. I am very uncomfortable with the danger of microwaves to the public, need more info on that. I will meet with her earlynext week if she can and check to see if there are areas that we own that are not so close to people. Remember that they are at our mercy since they will need to gat a variance to be anywhere in PL. I would like to find a safe spot since it is a monthly payment to the town which would be good for us. They quoted $800. a month. We are in the drivers seat, why not $1200. Just sayin...........ThankRemoveTrishandKathythankedNikki

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake25 FebNikki, there is a group for Verizon Cell Tower on here. My thoughts...why Verizon? If the TOPL and the PC believe this is in our best interest, put an RFP out there to get the most money from anyprovider not just Verizon. Also, ask Verizon how much other municipalities are getting...are they even allowing it?

Private land owners are getting tens of thousands of dollars a month but this may be for a different type of tower. Here's some more info...since no one on PC or TC are experts, you need one. Check out this site:http://www.cell-tower-leases.com/Cell-To...ThankRemoveJoeandKathythankedTrish

Jim AdamsfromPalmer Lake27 FebHi Karen, thanks for noticing what I said about putting the cell tower next to the elementary school. My point could have been better stated, so I will give it another try.The children that attendthe elementary school have no vote, they are not adults and they have very vulnerable young DNA. On the other hand, the citizens around the proposed cell tower are mostly adults, with voices, and votes. If they do not care about radiation from cell towers, then they can speak for the cell tower or remain mute.I will vote to protect them from cell towers in dense urban areas whether or not they are aware or concerned about possible ill effects from cell tower radiation. My point is that the children must be spoken for by adults that care for their safety. I utterly reject any proposal to put a cell tower on any school where students of any age attend classes.As to cell towers in dense urban areas, in general, I do not want my grandchildren, my daughter, my partner, or myself to have to live near one. But, how near is too close? I do not know the answer to that. I do not trust the FCC on this issue. I need to do more research to find out what other information there is on the topic.I remain skeptical about the long term effects of cell tower radiation. Could that come back to bite us if people get sick despite the FCC's assurances as to the safety of cell tower radiation? What about the people that work in the library all day long, have they been asked what they think? Will there need to be a survey of citizens around the tower before Town Council votes? What about all the increased radiation from other cell companies that rent space on the tower?ThankRemoveKaren,Jen,Kathyand3 othersthankedJim

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake27 FebTotally agree, this is something that if it is that dangerous to citizens we would not want any where here in Palmer Lake.ThankRemoveKaren,Kathy,Deeand2 othersthankedNikkiTop of Form

Bottom of FormLEAD29F***Must read for all group members***27 FebAndy DaehnfromPalmer LakeFirst of all, I am making this post to the groups only, for now. Second, I also apologize as I should have made more of an effort to create standards of discussion earlier.

I am no stranger tohosting and moderating sites for collaboration. I am also no stranger to controversy and emotions getting the better of people. Also, in order to provide the best environment for collaboration I will keep most of my opinions to the Town Hall, and the voting booth. I would not want anyone to feel as if this site sponsors any type of political motivation. The Nextdoor administrative staff can be hesitant when it comes to advice on allowing political discussions on forums run by founder's like myself. I certainly don't have a problem with political discussions, mostly due to the background I have in moderating similar sites. I can also create groups where these discussions can take place, and a member does not have to view a discussion or participate if they don't want to.

With that being said, I will absolutely not tolerate certain things:

1. Challenging the intellect and character of another member2. Foul language3. The use of all caps to make the impression of yelling

As we live in a small community and we all have to see each other around town, I trust that we can have political discussions, and there is nothing wrong with having emotions stirred from time to time. Furthermore, as founder of this site I have a responsibility to uphold the standards of safety and integrity that many people hope I provide.

With that being said, I have the power to silence a member for abuse of this site for a time, and I also have the power to remove a person from this site. I will give every chance I can to not have to do this, but that action will not be debatable. Before resorting to those extreme measures I will of course, remove the post, and if necessary, contact the parties involved. I have seen some very thoughtful and considerate posts from many different points of view for the short time this site has been active. I look forward to engaging and intelligent discussions from all points of view as we continue to make this small town the best little secret in Colorado. I will now lock this post.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralDave,Joe,Deeand1 otherthanked youAndy Daehndisabled replies on 27 Feb.7Gun range23 FebJen MartinfromPalmer LakeYikes, won't PD be upset?

Thanks Dave,Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLY7NikkithankedJenView all7replies

Jen MartinfromPalmer Lake24 FebLast thought, what is the concern then? If it was a new location then I would understand the questions but this just means renovating the old one. The train makes more noise then the pops. My guess is because PD only has certain hours that they can shoot that some sort of compromise with the hours for this club would be established,ThankRemove

Dave CooperfromPalmer Lake24 FebI believe the 2 concerns are the number of potential users and the noise. We are taking a trip north to Erie to see how theirs sounds. I have nothing on increased users at this time. Having dealt with sound attenuation in mechanical rooms over the years I know it can work. It depends on materials and placementThankRemove

Jen MartinfromPalmer Lake27 FebI understand Karen, but those are the two issues that I am trying to gather information on since I do not have all the facts.ThankRemoveTop of Form

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gun range26 FebNikki McDonaldfromPalmer LakeI wish there were more people willing to go to Erie with us to check out the gun range and speak with the neighbors. I have heard that folks may think that the range is going where the police range is now. It is not it is going on the other side of the motor cycle track. Please try to join us!!!Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKED!2REPLY5You andDeethankedNikki

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake26 FebNikki when are you going again? Bill mentioned something about the applicant arranging the visit.ThankRemove

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake26 FebCan this issue be placed on the ballot for the people to vote on?ThankRemove

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake26 FebJoe we are going Saturday the 1st. We will be meeting at 10:30 at the Town Hall. NikkiThankRemoveJenthankedNikki

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake26 FebNikki Kim and I will go. We'll follow you in our car since. Thanks!ThankRemove

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake27 FebGreat Joe see u thenThankRemoveTop of Form

Bottom of Form7Gun Club Visit26 FebJen MartinfromPalmer LakePlease post the details of where to meet. I want to visit the range too.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLYMikethankedJen

shooting range in Erie Colorado20 FebMeredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer LakeI spoke to the mayor this morning about their shooting facility. I was very concerned about what everyone was saying about the noise levels and property value being affected. Since Erie has ashooting facility I needed to hear what kind of challenges they had. My rationale for contacting the mayor was if people were upset about this facility he would be the one they complained. I also assumed that he had nothing to gain or lose by being totally honest I and forthright about any problems with the facility.Here are the highlights of our conversation1. the town absolutely loves this facility2. they have a two year waiting list for membership3. noise is not a factor no one complains4. mayor 's daughter lives in the subdivision next to the range5. property value have actually increased in the area6. one of the best features of the town7. they have had no challenges as a result of having this shooting facility in their townShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK3REPLY2Jeannine,Mike,JenthankedMeredith Kit

Joe PolonskyfromPalmer Lake25 FebThanks Meredith. How did you get in touch with mayor in case others would like to discuss the range?ThankRemove

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake26 FebI emailed him a list of questions regarding the shooting range and he chose to call me rather than respond to my email. the questions I was concerned about were the noise, property values and community complaints regarding this facility.ThankRemoveTop of Form

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gun range pros & cons13 FebBill FisherfromPalmer LakeI'm on the Town Planning Commission. The gun range group came and presented a month ago. They did present some compelling arguments. From other locals I've heard nothing but immediatenegative reactions. For or against - get the facts first. Biggest benefit would be Town revenue (this is Town property). Noise is obvious negative - and they claimed their plans resolve this issue.

Range group is on PC agenda again next Wed. 6 pm. Also, know that the PC is purely advisory to Council - who can do what they want.

-Bill FisherShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKED!2REPLY2You andJeanninethankedBill

Trish FlakefromPalmer Lake25 FebIs the Town considering leasing the land or selling it? I am opposed to the TOPL selling any land whatsoever.ThankRemove

Jen MartinfromPalmer Lake25 FebThanks for the info. Bill. Wed, tomorrow at 6 or March 5?ThankRemoveTop of Form

Bottom of Form7Cell Tower25 FebJen MartinfromPalmer LakeI definitely am opposed to the cell Tower going near the school. As far as the fire station goes, honestly, I am not sure I like that either. I don't want to make our courtyard and Town Hall notattractive when we need to start marketing the building more to the public for possible optional sources of revenue. I would need to see the plans. Can't they place it on a hill somewhere or in open area?Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK3REPLYKathy,Meredith Kit,KarenthankedJen

cell tower24 FebMeredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer LakeVerizon was to meet with the mayor to look at all the town's property and then to determine which ones would work to be the most effective for cell coverage.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLYKathythankedMeredith Kit

Erie gun club24 FebDave CooperfromPalmer LakeThe facility in Erie, CO is located 3 mi west of I-25 on Erie Parkway and 1/2 mi south. Houses are on the west across the road.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK1REPLYKathythankedDave2Palmer Lake shooting range20 FebJeannine EngelfromPalmer Lakethanks for the research. Is their facility similar to the one proposed here? I was sorry to hear the topic was tabled last night. Any idea when we will know exactly what their plan is?Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKREPLY2

Meredith Kit BromfieldfromPalmer Lake20 FebFrom what I know it is similar but ours actually will have a higher berm surrounding the facilityThankRemove

Nikki McDonaldfromPalmer Lake21 FebThe one in Erie does not have a roof on it, what they are proposing here is called no blue sky, which I guess means you will not be able to see the sky. Planing commission will hear it again after our visit. From what I have looked into these are wonderful shooting ranges that are able to abate the noise. We shall see?!ThankRemoveJeannineandDeethankedNikkiTop of Form

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Gun range exploration!21 FebNikki McDonaldfromPalmer LakeHi all,

I wanted to invite anyone that is interested in going with us to Erie Colorado on Saturday March 1st.I will be taking a group of folks to see the gun range there that is similar, to whatis proposed here. From what I understand it does not have a roof over the facility. The proposed facility here will have a roof that goes all the way to the berm that folks will be shooting at. It is also right next door to a housing development, and I would also like to talk to some of the neighbors and actually hear from them their thoughts. As of now I have 2 planning commission members 3 citizens, 2 that are opposed and one that is on the fence. Two other trustees will be joining us there. If anyone else would like to join us I have room and one of the trustees also has room. We would like to leave around 10 ish from the town hall. It is probably about an hour and a half drive. We plan on taking a video camera and Dave Cooper will get a decimal reader as well. I know what an emotional issue this is, but I also believe that in 25 years they have had to address the noise issue. I can not pass judgment until I can see and hear for myself. Please join us if you can.Blessings,NikkiShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKED!5REPLYYou,Jeannine,Kathyand2 othersthankedNikkiLEAD29FGreat discussion!21 FebAndy DaehnfromPalmer LakeI just wanted to say that there is some excellent collaboration in this group going on! Well thought out posts and considerations given to both sides. I may have to create a couple of other groups for discussion in light of the upcoming election on April 1st. Thanks! - AndyShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralREPLYMeredith Kit,Jeannine,Kathythanked you

Gun Range and Pending Issues20 FebBob GradofromPalmer LakeHi all,I just wanted to post a note to thank everyone for attending the meeting last night. I am a "Supporter" of the gun range proposal, but hear the opponents loud and clear. The bottomline is the Town Board does it's best to represent the majority and will vote for what we feel is in the best interest of our community. I am 100% in agreement that we don't want to add the nuisance of gun fire into our beautiful town. With that said, we will be very careful to make sure we do our homework and everyone is heard on both sides.

The Town Board has been volunteering many hours over the past couple of years to restructure all of our town services and to provide us with the best public safety possible on a very limited budget. We are also working hard to bring new business opportunity to our community to support a struggling town without increasing our taxes.

We have several major topics before us right now to consider.1. Recreational Marijuana Sales. As a 27 year veteran of law enforcement, I could not bring myself to vote for this. I do believe we have some good options to manage it, if it passes on the April 1, 2014 ballot.2. Gun Range. More to be done before any decisions can be made.3. Verizon Radio Tower. The proposal is to pay the town $800.00 per month for 25 years. This may help us in funding for our fire department building, if it is freezable.

Bottom line... We all live in a GREAT place! As a 25 year resident who married into a family of Palmer Lake Dinosaurs, we need to find ways to keep ownership and stability in our town. This is coming from a person that is extremely conservative.... We may have to dig a little deeper into our pockets to pay for our lake and town services if some of these options are not approved.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANK3REPLYMeredith Kit,Jeannine,MikethankedBob3Proposed Outdoor Shooting Range in Palmer Lake20 FebShirlee DobbsfromPalmer LakeLast night the proposal for an outdoor shooting range was tabled so that more information can be gathered regarding the noise mitigation system. I was very disappointed that this wasn't voted onand defeated. I am doubtful about the science that was used by Tri Lakes Shooting Supply to sell this project. As one gentleman who actually supports the gun range said, "it will be like your neighbor is using a nail gun to roof his house" seven days a week and twelve hours a day forever. That is not something I wish to listen to or subject my neighbors to.

Another concern is the financial ability of this organization to complete the project as proposed. What happens if they get some of the noise mitigation in place and then run out of funds to complete the project? That leaves the Town of Palmer Lake with an eyesore and a nuisance. Does the Town have the financial ability and/or knowledge to monitor the construction and confirm that the noise nuisance and environmental problems are solved?

The threat was made that the Tri Lakes Shooting Supply is looking at property outside the city limits of Palmer Lake in Douglas/El Paso County near enough to the town that the noise would still be a problem. The project would still need to be approved by the appropriate county planning commission. It seems to me that it would be more difficult to get a project like this approved by the county planning commission than Palmer Lake.

The mayor position and a number of positions on the town council are open for election in April. I hope we can elect folks who are opposed to this project before it is approved.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralTHANKED!4REPLYYou,Jeannine,Kathyand1 otherthankedShirleeLEAD29FLinks to the other discussions13 FebAndy DaehnfromPalmer LakeTo keep all the information in one place I am locking the previous threads but you can view the previous discussion through these links:https://palmerlake1.nextdoor.com/news_fe...

https://palmerlake1.nextdoor.com/news_fe...

https://palmerlake1.nextdoor.com/news_fe...

Feel free to discuss and comment in this group about the topic of the proposed gun range.

Thanks! - AndyShared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralREPLYLEAD29FDiscussion on proposed gun range13 FebAndy DaehnfromPalmer LakeIn an effort to consolidate all the information on the proposed gun range, I have moved the discussion here.Shared with theProposed Gun Rangepublic groupinGeneralREPLY