1873.] PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 67

-LOCAL REVENUES IN NORTHERNDISTRICT BILL.

Third Reading.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. Fi. P.Barlee) moved that the Bill be now read athird time.

The Bill was read a third time and passed.

RELIGIOUS BODIES (CHURCH OFENGLAND) BILL.

Second Reading.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.Hocking), in moving the second reading ofthis Bill, briefly explained its object. TheChurch of England in this colony having,owing to recent circumstances, become a pri-vae body of Christians, representative mem-bers of which having, in Synod assembled,unanimously resolved that, consequent uponsuch change, the temporal affairs of theirChurch should henceforth he regulated andmanaged by mutual compact and arrange-ment among the members thereof, in the samemanner as other religious denominations, itwas now sought to remove the legislativetrammels which fettered their action in thisrespect.

The Bill was read a second time.

In Committee.

The Bill passed through Committee subsilentio.

PEARL SHELL FISHERYREGULATION BILL.

Third Reading.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.Barlee) moved that the Bill ha now read athird time.

The Bill was read a third time and passed.

MASTERS AND APPRENTICES BILL-

Second Reading.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.Hocking) moved the second reading of a Billto declare the law relating to masters and ser-vants. In explaining the nature of the Bill thehon. and learned gentleman said it was retro-spective in its purview, and provided that athe laws in force in England on the lstJanuary, 1873, relating to apprentices-exceptin so far as the same ware inapplicable to thecircumstances of this colony-should bedeemed to have been and to be the law here.

The Bill was read a second time.

In Committee.

Clause 1 agreed to.Clause 2-The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.

Hocking) moved to insert the word "or" be-fore the word "such" in the seventh line.

Amendment agreed to.The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.

Hocking) moved to strike out the word"question" in the seventh line and insert thewords "questions, disputes and differences."

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.Preamble agreed to.Title agreed to.Bill reported, with amendments.The Council adjourned at 8.30 p.m.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL,Tuesday, 22nd July, 1871

Concessions or Land: aelect committee repoft-Cert LicensingBill: second reading: in commaittes-Suhdiviaion or RoadDistricts Dill: second resdinrin comnittee-Tifle to sadDealing with Estates in Lan Hill: motion (or secondreading-Masters and Apprentices Dill: third reading.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 12 noon.PRAYERS.

CONCESSIONS OF LANDSelect Committee Report.

The SURVEYOR GENERAL (Hon. M,Frmsr) moved that the report be adopted.

Mr. LOGUE moved, as an amendment,that 1,000 acres of land be granted in feesimple to Messrs. Muir, the pioneer settlers ofEucla, and that 500 acres of Land in fee simplebe granted to Mr. A. Dempster, in recognitionof his labors in forming a road to the eastward ofHampton Plaint.

After a conversational discussion,Mr CAREY moved as an amendment upon

the amendment of the hon. member forGeraldton that a the words after the word."Eucla" be omitted.

An animated conversation ensued afterwhich,

Amendment on the amendment agreed to.Amendment, as amended, put, "That 1,000

acres of land be granted in fee simple toMessrs. Muir, as pioneer settlers of Eucla,"

1873.1 67PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.

68 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [July22

upon which a division was called for, the re-sult being as follos-

Ayes ..................... SNoes......................1

Majority againstAys

The Hon. MIFreaserMr. ConyMr. DempsierMr. Mo.ngerMr. Ltlgue (Teflet.)

5Nw..

The Hun. F. P. lPmrleeVTe lon. H. H. HeltingM r. SteeneMr. HasselMr. RussellSir rh,,mas Cockburn-

CampbellMr. PeareMr. PadhuryMr. HickleyMr. Mmrmsion il'fler.)

Amendment, as amended, thus negatived.Motion agreed to.

CART LICENSING BILL.

Second Reading.Mr. STEERE, pursuant to notice, moved the

second reading of a Bill to empower districtwoads boards to supplement the fund placedat their disposal by the Government, for theconservation, improvement and making ofroads, by the issuing of licenses for carts andcarriages within their respective districts. Itwas well known that the grant-in-aid was, inmany cases, utterly insufficient for the pur-pose, and the question arose what would bethe best means to supplement the grant Toll-gates had been recommended, but His Excel-lency was opposed to that mode of raisingfunds; and it appeared to him that a fair andequitable means to supplement the Govern-ment grant for the conservation of roads wasto levy a tax on all vehicles using the roads.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.Hocking) pointed out several defects in thedetails of the Bill, and contended that unlessit were made general and compulsory in itsapplication it would be unworkable. It wouldcreate endless confusion if one districtadopted the system of cart-licensing andanother did not do the same. The proposedscale of fees was, likewise, open to grave objec-tions, as it appeared to him that the tax wouldbe anything but fair and equitable in its inci-dence. The third clause was also objection-able; if the roads boards were desirous of im-posing a tax, they ought to provide themachinery for collecting it, and not inflictupon the justices at petty sessions--as pro-vided in the third clause--the duties of receiv-ing applications for licenses and granting thesame. There was no desire on the part of theGovernment to oppose the principle of theBill; the objections, he took to it, related to itsdetails, which might be amended in Com-mittee.

Mr. PADRURY aid be had always been ofopinion that country residents should contrib-ute towards the construction and maintenanceof roads as well as townspeople. His beliefwas, that the most equitable means of sup-plementing the Government grant-in-aid tothe roads boards would be the establishmentof toll-gates-a system which he had observedwas still in operation in the other colonies; butif His Excellency was opposed to that system,-and it could not be adopted, it appeared tohim that the proposal of the hon. member forWellington to levy a tax upon the vehicles

wihused the roads was a fair and legitimate.proposition. He was, however, of opinion thatthe Bill ought to be universal and compulsoryin its application.

The SURVEYOR GENERAL (Hon. M.Fraser) objected to the mode in which thefourth clause of the BiUl provided for the im-position of the tax, which,--if the section werecarried out in its integrity-would be ca-pricious and unjust in its incidence.

Mr. BICKLEY considered that those per-sons who used the roads mostly were the verypeople who ought to contribute towards theirconservation, and, so far, it appeared that theprinciple of the Bill was a very just one, andworthy of support. He did not, however, be-lieve that the Bill could ever be carried out inits integrity, unless it were made general andcompulsory in its application to all the dis-tricts of the colony. Another defect in the Billwas the proposed scale of fees payable for li-censes, which appeared to him unfair, and hewould prefer seeing one uniform tax upon alldescriptions of vehiclesi of one class, for what-ever purpose employed, so long as they madeuse of the declared roads of the colony

Mr. DEMPSTER thought a toll tax wouldbe the most equitable.

Mr. MONGER also expressed himself infavor of toll-gates. The proposed tax wouldbear very heavy upon a hardworking andworthy class of men-the sandalwood-cutters,who were already heavily taxed. According tothe Bill, the wealthy man would only have topay one-half the sandalwood carter's license-fee, for carts conveying his wool; and surely hawas insa better position to pay a tax than thesandalwood-cutters.

Sir Thomas COCKBURN-CAMPBELLfailed to see how the proposed tax would be sounfair towards sandalwood-cutters in contra-diction to other people who employed carts.The carts of sandalwood-cutters destroyed theroads to a greater extent than any other de-scription of vehicle; and while the squatterwould require half-a-dozan carts--all of which

68 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [July 22

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.

would have to be taxed-in the conveyance ofhis wool, during three or four months of theyear only, the sandalwood-cutter, on the otherhand, generally employed only one cart, whichhe used throughout the year. The cry that theproposed tax would be unjust in its inci-dence-so fareas it affected the sandalwood-cutters-appeared to him without foundation.

Mr. CAREY supported the Bill. He couldnot agree with the arguments in favor of es-tablishing toll-bars; his opinion in regard oftoll-gates was in accord with the opinion ofthe hon. the Attorney General;-the expenseof maintaining and working them wouldswallow up all the proceeds from traffic alongthe roads.

Mr. MARMION was opposed to the scaleof license fees, which, he contended, wouldbear very unjustly upon a class of men whoalready contribute a fair quota towards thegeneral revenue of the colony-sandalwood-cutters. He feared there were almost insuper-able difficulties in the way of carrying out theprovisions of the BiUl; and it appeared to himthat the fairest way of supplementing thegrant-in-aid towards the conservancy andimprovement of roads was a valuation rate,which the roads boards were already em-powered to levy, under the provisions of theexisting Act. If the Bill before the Horne weremade compulsory as to its application, theexisting Adt, so far as it related to a valuationrate, should also be rendered compulsory andgeneral.

Mr. LOGUE said the objections raised tothe Bill were merely as to its details; the gen-eral principle appeared to be acceptable to themajority of hon. members. The minor mattersof detail might be discussed and agreed uponin Committee.

The COLONIAL, SECRETARY (Hon. F P.Barlee) concurred. The hon. member forWellington would see that there was no desireon the part of the Government to oppose theBill; hut the hon. member would recognise,from the remarks of the Attorney General,that there were several matters of the detail inthe measure which would require rectifying,and this could he beat done in Committee. Inregard of toll-gates, ha assured the House, HisExcellency the Governor entertained no un-conquerable aversion to those relics of thegood old times; but it did appear to His Excel-lency that not only were there difficulties inthe way of carrying out a system of toll-barsin a scattered colony like our own, but that itwould be unreasonable and impolitic for us toresuscitate a system heirs which was dying outeverywhere else. No provision was made inany existing Act which would enable the

Government to undertake the establishmentof toll-gates; this would have to be done bythe roads boards, who would have to providefor the erection of toll-bars and residences forthe toll-keepers. The expense which wouldalso be attendant in keeping the toll-gateswould be no inconsiderable item; and hadoubted whether the traffic receipts wouldsuffice to meet the expenditure in many dis-tricts. He concurred with the bon. memberMr. Bickley that the Bill ought to be renderedcompulsory in its application, and that a uni-form sca of fees be charged on all vehicles ofthe same description, for whatever purposeemployed,, so long as they made use of theroads.

After some further observations in replyfrom Mr. STEERE,

The Bill was read a second time,In Committee.

Clause I-The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.

Hocking) moved that clause 1 be struck out inorder to render the Bill applicable to, andcompulsory upon, all the districts of the col-ony.

Amendment put, "That clams 1 be struck*out," upon which a division was called for, theresult being as follows:-

Ayes....................... 10Noes....................... 5

Majority for 5

Ayes.The Nooni. F'. P. HarlrelThe Hion. M. F1ra-nerMr. I'earrseMr. HickleySir 'fIohn'm Ctookbnrn.

Mr. l'aulurvMr. I)emprierMr. IAngueMr. Hum..ITIhIe H--n. H. H. H.,kin5gt'ieller. I

No oe.Mr. Hu.el['he*arMr.anuMr. MungerMr. Sleere f'IWilr.I

Amendment thus passed.Clause 2-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Berlee) moved that clause 2 be omitted, andthe following inserted in lieu thereof-

Any person using a cart on any road inthe colony for which a cart-license heire-inafter named shall not have been paid,shall upon conviction, forfeit and payany sum not less then tI, nor more than£:10; provided that the provisions of thisAct shall not apply to the carts of per-sons licensed within any municipality.

After a desultory discussion, the amendmentwas agreed to.

1873.] 69

70 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [July 22

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Bable) moved that clause 3, which providedthat licenses should be rnted by justices inpetty sessions, be struck out, and the follow-ing section adopted in lieu thereof-

Licenses shall be issued by such per-sons and in such places in each district asthe Local Road Board in each districtshall from time to time decide, in theform given in the schedule hereunto an-nexed.

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Barlee) moved that all words after the word"follows" in the second line be struck out, andthe following words inserted, "I.-For everycart drawn on two wheels the sum of ten shil-lings. 2.-For every cart drawn on four wheelsthe sum of one pound."

Amendment agreed to.Mr. STERlE moved that the following

words be added to the amended clams:-Provided, however, that the license fee

payable on any cart the wheels whereofshall be five inches, or more, in width,shell not exceed one-half the license feelevied under this section.

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5--Mr. MARMION moved that the following

words be added to the clause:-Provided that the fact that any person

having a cart upon his premises shall beprima facie evidence of much cart beingused upon the roads of the colony.

Amendment not agreed to.Clause agreed to.

Clause 6-The SURVEYOR GENERAL (Hon. M.

Frmsr) moved to insert the words "body ofthe" between the words "the" and "cart" inthe third line.

Amendment ageed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7-Mr. LOGUE moved that the clause be

struck outAmendment agreed to.

Clause 8-.The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Barlee) moved that after the word "charge" inthe third line the words "his name and ad-dress and" be insertied.

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Claus 9-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Barlee) moved that the words "LicensingMagistrate" in the first line be struck out andthe words "Roads Board in each district" beinserted.

Amendment agreed to.The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Barlee) moved that the words "or transfers oflicenses" be struck out.

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.'

Barlee) moved that the words "and fortransfers of licenses" in the first line, and thewords "save and except clerk's fees" be struckout.

Amendment agreed to.The ATT1ORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.

Hocking) moved to strike out all words afterthe word "be," in the fourth line and insertthe following words instead thereof, "dealtwit h and applied by the local hoard withinWhose district such sums had been received orsuch penalties and forfeitures inflicted for thepurposes enumerated in the fifth section of'the District Roads Act 1871l.'"

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. P. P.

Barlee) moved to insert after the word",vehicle" in the second line the words "withonr without springs."

Amendment spreed to.clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 12-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Barlee) moved to insert at the end of theclause the words "and shall come into oper-ation on and after the frst day of January,1874."

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.Clams 13 agreed to.

70 [July 22PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.

1873.] PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 7

Schedule A-The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Barlee) moved to strike out the words"Schedules" in the first line, the letter "A" inthe second line, and the word "we" in thefourth line, the word "ours" in the eighth line,and to omit the letter "a"' from the word"hands.",

Amendments agreed to.Mr. MARMION moved to insert after the

word "cart" the words "of wheels and."Amendment agreed to.Schedule, as amended, agreed to.Schedules B and C not agreed to.Preamble agreed to.Title agreed to.Bill reported, with amendments.

SUBDIVISION OF ROAD DISTRICTSHILL.

Second Reading.Mr. STEERE moved the second reading of

a Bill to provide for the more equitable rep-resentation of the various roads districts, by'empowering the local boards to sub-dividetheir respective districts into parishes, thenumber of which, however, shall not exceethe number of members composing the localboard.

The Bill was read a second time.

In Committee.Clause 1-Mr. STEERE moved to insert after the

word "Board" in the fifth line the words "andat any time after making such order to revokeand annul the same."

Amendment agreed to.The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.

Barlee) moved to strike out the word "their"in the third line and insert the word "such,"and to strike out the words "or some partthereof."

Amendments agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.Clause 2-The ATTrORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.

Hocking) moved to insert the word "thereof"after the word "copy" in the second line.

Amendment agreed to.Clause, w amended, agreed to.Clause 3 and 4-Mr. STEERE moved that clauses 3 and 4

be struck out.

Amendment agreed to.Clause 5-

The ATT'ORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.Hocking) moved to strike out all words downto the word "members" and insert the words"after the making of any such order as afore-said there shall be elected in every parish anumber or such number of members to servein the local board of the district" in lieuthereof.

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.Clause 6-

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.Barlee) moved to strike out all words after theword "the" at the end of the first line and in-sert the words "holding of elections of a mem-ber or members of local boards in those par-ishes within the boundaries of which no suchelections had been previously held."

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. STEERE moved to add the words"Provided however that all elections to beheld under an order made by a local boardshall take place on some day to be mentionedin such order between the 15th and 3satDecember in each year inclusive."

Amendment agreed to.Clause, as amended, agreed to.New clause-

The A77ORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.Hocking) moved that the following wordsstand as a new clause, "On the 31st Decembernext after the making of any such order afore-said all members of the local board makingsuch order shall go out of office."

New clause agreed to.Progress reported, and leave obtained to sit

again.

TITLE TO AND DEALING WITHESTATES IN LAND BILL,

Motion for Second Reading.

Mr. CAREY moved that the Bill be nowread a second time.

On the question being put,The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.

Hocking) moved to omit the word "now" witha view to inserting at the end of the question"this day six months."

After some debate the Bill was, by leave,withdrawn.

. 711873.1

72 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [July23

MASTERS AND APPRENTICES BILL.

Third Reading.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. H. H.Hocking) moved that the Bill be now read athird time.

The Bill was read a third time.The Council adjourned at 5.30 p.m.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL,Wednesday, 23rd July 1873.

Loer Canning Bridge: in committee-Lensing of PoisonLri& seetcmiteTufslaen of Membersin legislative Council Bill: in committee.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 6 p.m.PRAYERS.

LOWER CANNING BRIDGE.

In Committee.

Mr. PEARSE moved that an humble Ad-dress be presented to His Excellency theGovernor praying that he will be pleased toplace on the Estimates the sum of £100 to en-able the Fremantle Road Board to completethe construction of the Lower CanningBridge.

Debate ensued.Question put and negatived.

-LEASING OF POISON LANDS.

Select Committee.

Mr. LOGUE, in accordance with notice,moved that a select committee be appointedto inquire into and report upon the manner inwhich certain poison lands have been leased,with power to call. for papers and persons, andthe committee to consist of the Surveyor Gen-eral (Hon. M. Fraser), Mr. Staere, the At-torney General (Hon. H. H. Hocking), Mr.Marmion, and the Mover.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.Barlee) and the SURVEYOR GENERAL(Hon. M. Fraser) provided the House with anexplanation of the position, upon which,

The motion was, by leave, withdrawn.

TARIFFS.Mr. LOGUE, in accordance with notice,

and with leave, moved that the motion for anAddress to His Excellency the Governor,

praying him to introduce a Bill to amnad theexisting Tariff Act, was carried in conse-quence of an hon. member misunderstandingthe question, and is not in accordance withthe wishes of a majority of the Council, whoare of opinion that no alteration should bemade in the present tariff, otherwise than byadmitting wheat duty free; and further thatan humble Address should be presented toHis Excellency, conveying this expression ofopinion-

Mr. STEERE seconded the motion.

Mr. MARMION intimated that ha had nointention of pressing the motion which he hadintroduced, and which the House had af-fitrmed by a majority of one, inasmuch as hehad received a note from an hon. memberstating that he had inadvertently voted infavor of the motion when his intention was tooppose it.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. F. P.Barlee) said he could not agree to the motionbefore the House, which affirmed that a ma-jority of the Council were of opinion that,with the exception of' placing wheat on thefree list, no alteration was desirable in theexisting Tariff Act. On the contrary, he be-lieved there was a very strong opinion in theHouse in favor of a further and more liberalrevision of the present tariff. If the hon. main-.her would consent to withdraw his motion, hewould pledge himself on the part of theGovernment that no action would be taken inthe resolution affirmed by the Houae in re-gard of the Tariff Act.

Mr. LOGUE declined to withdraw his mo-tion.

Question put, "That the motion be agreedto," upon which a division was called for, theresult being as follows:-

Ayes....................... 7Noes....................... 7

Aye,. Ne..Mr. Carey Trhe Him. M. FawrMr. Padhury The Him. F. 11. HarleeMr. HNwihe The Hu.n. H. H. HurkinjMr. Sceere Sir Thiomas Campbell.Mr. Dempater CuichburnMr. Hu 4e1l Mr. MoteMr. lA-ogue (Tei~er.J Mr. Pe.s

Mr. Marrnimu rIelne.j

The voting being equal, the SPEAKER gavehis casting vote with the Ayes, stating that hisreason for so doing wss that he considered itvery undesirable to be altering the tariff fre-quently.

This intimation was greeted with loudcheers on the part of the "Ayes."

Question thus passed.

72 [July 23PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.