INTERVIEW the REPORT | 21 June 2012 | Page 4

Nadav Poraz, founder, WhoSampledWhoSampled was set up three years ago to create a UGC database of samples in music, pinpointing which tracks have been sampled and where.

With its new iPhone app launching this week, it is looking to move beyond the community focus that its rise was built upon, making a play for a broader audience and fulfilling a role akin to a Shazam for sampling. Founder Nadav Poraz explains how a Spotify app is next, where labels come and in and why scanning from streaming service data (as opposed to a user’s iTunes collection) will better reflect changing audience behaviour.

What is WhoSampled and why did you set it up?

“We have created a unique music discovery service that celebrates the connections in music between artists, songs and genres.

We started out focusing on mapping samples to create the world’s biggest database of sampling with very granular metadata that allows the listener to appreciate what the sample is, what the influence was and how it was used.

Then we gradually grew into introducing cover versions and remixes as we think all of

that is a part of the same concept of music DNA. By having samples, covers and remixes, we have a good mapping out of music DNA.”

Could it be described as being like a super-powered Shazam?

“We don’t do fingerprinting like Shazam does, but we have a complimentary approach to music discovery and we dig deeper into the music. If Shazam knows what a song is, we know what’s inside the song. We go one level deeper.

The way to do that is to crowd-source that information as there really isn’t a technology that exists today algorithmically that find out all the samples as they are very often chopped up, remixed or even reversed. That’s why you need the human ear to identify the samples.

We wanted to be the music DNA brain of the universe where everything goes in there and gets processed. But we realised very early on that we need to have strict quality control as what might seem like a sample is actually just vague similarities between songs.

We try to be very strict and keep it factual. We are focused on clear, deliberate, factual references between songs. Now we have over 150,000 tracks in our database, we have mapped a good chunk of the history of sampling. It is getting harder to weed out the inaccurate stuff from the quality stuff.”

How do you do this?

“Everything is manually checked. We have a very small core team but we took on a team of moderators who were super-users of the site. There are volunteers spread all over the world. There are about 50-60 at any given time who are active and process all the incoming submissions. We vet them very carefully.

Nothing gets published until it is verified and checked. Mistakes can happen but we try to fix them as soon as we know about them. We continually sculpt it to make it as accurate as possible.”

Would you use fingerprinting to allow users to tag tracks and then see the samples? Or partner with Shazam?

“That would be an incredible user experience for music fans. We have definitely looked at different options of the app and concluded that to try and become a Shazam competitor is extremely expensive.

There are companies like them and SoundHound who already do it so well. They have amazing technology and amazing

catalogues. It’s not something you want to get into unless it really makes sense.”

Would you want to, rather than license their technology, be acquired by Shazam or SoundHound?

“You should speak to them about that! Any start-up thinks about a potential acquisition or growing into a substantial business by itself.

We are perfectly happy providing music fans with something they enjoy, that is useful and that brings value to the music industry in a new way. We are very confident doing that but whatever happens happens.”

“If Shazam knows what a song is, we know what’s inside the song.”

Daren Tsui

INTERVIEW the REPORT | 21 June 2012 | Page 5

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What is your own business model?

“So far we have been monetising through display advertising on the site. That is our main revenue stream. We have done some interesting takeover campaigns and integrations for big brands. We also have affiliate links to music stores like iTunes and Amazon– and even eBay if you want to buy second-hand vinyl

We are driving pretty substantial sales for the industry. It’s obviously not massive, but it’s value that didn’t really exist before.

Our biggest value-add to the music industry is that we give exposure to back catalogue that in other ways wouldn’t really get that kind of exposure.

We bring the new fans to hip-hop, electronic music and even rock to appreciate the roots of the music they like. When they discover the source of the samples, they buy the originals. That’s a compelling argument to tell the labels that own the catalogues that sampling is really beneficial. Sales are generated.”

Ad revenue and affiliate payments are very granular. Will you offer a premium tier?

“We are doing two things around that right now. One of them is the app, which is a paid app. It is an ad-free, premium experience and that will cost £1.99 in the UK and $2.99 in the US. That is going to be a revenue stream for us, but more than anything initially it is to cover our development costs.

The other area is the fact there is now a lot of value in our data. We may release a public API for non-commercial purposes and we do a lot of educational and non-commercial work. We are always happy to provide the data on that basis. But for any brands or labels who want to leverage that data for commercial purposes, our API is going to be offered on a commercial basis.”

On the topic of apps, your app has just launched, but initially only on iPhone. Why?

“We haven’t really started work on developing the Android version. But, with the iPhone version, we have the blueprint. You want to be on as many devices as possible, but it takes a lot of resources to get it right and there are a lot of companies struggling with it.

We know that Android is going to be trickier in that respect. With the Apple App Store, you are worried you are going to put in a lot of work and then possibly have to make massive changes. But if you are confident in

what you are doing and have followed all the standards, then you don’t need to be concerned about that.

The reason we focused on the iPhone first is because, for music lovers, it is the phone they use because of the tight integration with iTunes. We wanted to do the library scan so it was straightforward and is why we went iOS first. But we do want to be on other platforms.”

What apps are next?

“Android is next but we also want to create a version of the app specifically for the iPad.

“We are working on an app for Spotify”

INTERVIEW the REPORT | 21 June 2012 | Page 6

But we’d need to come up with something different and special. One thing we need to explore seriously is ways to visualise our data.

That data is very network-based with a lot of connections and is something that could be visualised very nicely. That means the exploration can become very graphical and interactive. This is something the iPad can allow us to do.

This is all just on the drawing board at the moment but there is potential for us to create something really cool for the iPad.”

How else are you developing your app strategy?

“We are working on an app for Spotify. It is a very tech-savvy company and understands

the needs of the ecosystem. One of the great things Spotify launched recently was the embeddable play button.

It was exactly what we wanted to use on the site. Before that we were using third-party streaming services – and we always made sure we used the licensed ones. But in many cases we didn’t have the streams and if we can replace them with the Spotify play button, that’s great.

Spotify is increasingly powering more of our streams. In terms of the Spotify app, we are very happy to partner on all sorts of initiatives and take certain parts of our database and get it to power all sorts of music discovery applications.

We want to do a Spotify app as we appreciate the scale Spotify has, but we also need to be conscious of not cannibalising our website. We can’t replicate the entire WhoSampled experience into Spotify without thinking about the implications.”

Why have the iTunes library sweep on the iPhone app?

“Our database is deceptively complex. It might seem simple but the drill down of the data is very deep. It is much simpler and cleaner than the website. Why we did the

scanning of your own music collection is about personalisation. It gives users an easy way in – they have their own collection and they start from there.”

Will the app be able to scan what a user plays on an app like Spotify, Deezer or Rdio instead of their iTunes?

“We are starting with the iTunes library but next on the agenda is to integrate with more services so you can import your history and preferences. All those services have an API that allows that. They will be a part of the app.”

A big part of the app is signing in with Facebook. Is the idea of frictionless sharing causing too much spam?

“Frictionless sharing is a very new thing. Initially there was a lot of positive reaction to it – mainly from app developers who were evangelising about how well it had done for them. We are being really responsible in that we allow any user to turn off any type of sharing they are not interested in.

As long as you are responsible and not too spammy, you should be fine. But it could become boring for people and something they are not interested in. It’s really interesting to look at trending tracks as that

brings out the most popular samples on the planet right now.

Then there is the historic stuff which is important for us to cover and be a comprehensive source of music DNA.”

Few apps are used more than once. Are you worried?

“Any music app, apart from maybe the subscription service ones, built around discovery does not have the same stickiness as a game. Nothing comes close to sticky games. I think we are going to be like Shazam – an app every serious music fan needs on their phone.

It’s probably something you will fire up five or six times a month if you are a serious music fan. We might not be on every user’s home page on their phone – but being on the second page is good enough for us.”

Will you get involved with Music Hack Day?

“We haven’t really been so far, but we’d love to be a part of that. We are getting a lot of interest from developers here.”

What are your conversion rates for people going on to buy tracks? Shazam gets 8%.

“One of the disadvantages of our app is

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“We wanted to be the music DNA brain of the universe”

INTERVIEW the REPORT | 21 June 2012 | Page 7

that we are reliant on third-party streaming services. The music that you can play on the app is from YouTube, which means that you need to be online but the quality is not always good and it can be slow.

It’s not a great experience, but with a click of a button you can make a purchase. I wouldn’t say we can see the types of conversion rates that Shazam is getting, but if you find a cool track a sample is from on WhoSampled’s app it is much superior and more convenient to download it and have it on your phone.

I think we will have nice conversion rates but we can’t really say what it will be on the app [until it is released].”

How has the company changed since you launched in 2009?

“Our biggest challenge was to keep up with the growth of the data and make sure we maintain quality control. When we launched officially in December 2009, we had 10,000 tracks. Now we have over 150,000 tracks – and all of that data was generated manually.

That was a huge amount of effort to shape the community in the right way, getting the right people involved and making sure the mechanism is efficient. We now have a leadership position in anything to do with sampling today.

It’s very exciting but there is also a responsibility around that. Because sampling

has all sorts of legal implications, we have to be as responsible as we can in how we present our data and what we do with it.”

What markets are big for you?

“45% of our audience is from the US. That is our biggest territory by a mile. The UK is second with around 12%. It has a lot to do with where hip-hop and electronic music are popular – so that includes France, Germany, Canada and Australia. We also get substantial traffic from Poland and Russia.

Traditionally the most popular artists on the site were Kanye West and Jay-Z, but now we have Skrillex at number 3. There is definitely a lot of interest coming from the US for all those artists identified with ‘EDM’.”

What else could you do with your data?

“What could be interesting from our data is to look at how the genres influence each other and how they correlate. So you can see, for example, when something like dubstep got a lot of Bollywood influences – and we’ve seen that happen with Chase & Status.

We see both sides of the equation and where the samples come from so we can see those

micro-influences. You can see things falling in and out of fashion.

We charted the evolution of the ‘Amen!’ break over time. Obviously there was a huge re-explosion with drum & bass and jungle in the 1990s but then it dropped off as people were really tired of that sound. But then in the last few years, there was a blip as it got used as a retro thing.

People went back to the ‘Amen!’ break because as soon as they put it in a track, they got that old school feel.”

How do you work with acts and labels and open the long tail?

“We do get a lot of interest from artists – both sampled and sampling artists. Some producers who have put out sampled music in the past get in touch with us and give us the full details [of what they have sampled]. They want to make sure they are accurately represented.

Then the sampled artists are sometimes not aware of all the samples that were used and they are curious to hear those samples. We will sometimes interview them on the site to get their views on how their music was used.

Last year we got Mark Rae from Rae & Christian to interview members of The Mohawks who put out ‘The Champ’ in 1967 which is the most sampled British record of all time. So we had two generations of musicians talking to each other and talking about sampling.

We want to give more exposure and recognition to those artists who were sampled. With the labels, we are working on initiatives with two of the majors which we will reveal soon.”

Are you always going to be a niche concern?

“We do have a challenge of consumer education here. Even the most mainstream music consumer would be interested in the information around samples. We are a niche service right now but we have a lot of room to grow.

We will not be as popular as the broadest music services but in our own niche we have room to expand and do more around the discovery experience.”

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“We now have a leadership position in anything to do with sampling today”