Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 3 DECEMBER 1914

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

2404 Adjournm.mt. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY •

TH'CRSDAY, 3 DECE}IBER, 1914.

The SFE\KEE (Hon. W. D. Armstrong, Lockyer) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

QUESTIONS.

IPSWICH STATE SAWNILL.

Mr. BHRTRA;H (Jimcf) asked the Secre­tary for Railways-

" 1. \Yhat price '\Vas p~o~a during October and November by the State sawmill at IpRwich for-(rr) hardwood; (b) pine, in the log?

"2. \Vhat is the cost per 100 super­ficial feet of cutting at the mill-( a) hardwood; (b) pine?

"3. Does the Railway Department debit the mill with freight at ordinary rates?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Han. W. T. Paget, Jiackny) replied-

" 1. (a) October and November-4s. 6d., Ss., Ss. 6d., 6s. 3d., 6s. 9d., 7s. 6d., and Bs., respectively, per 100 superficial feet, according to class of log and mileage from Ip~wich. (b) Octob·or-7s. 6d. and Bs. per 100 superficial f~d. Novc:mber-7s. 6d. pc•r 100 superfimal feet.

"2. (a) Ss. 3d. per 100 5Uperficial feet; (b) 62. 4d. per 100 superficial fe-•'t.

"3. No."

GATTOX COLLI GE ADo!INISTRATIOX.

Mi·. GILDAY (Ithaca) asked tho Secretary for Agriculture and Stod(-

" 1. Is he thoroughly conY<>rsant with the true state of affairs regarding the administration of the Gatton College?

" 2. Cannot he give better rea •wns for the decrease in the number of students than those containc·d in the report of the principal for the present year?

" 3. What percentage of ~tudents were sam of bona fide farmers who have left the college, and were called away to assist their parents since the prese.nt principal took up his duties?

"4. Is he aware that those students referred to left the cnllego with the sole intention of gving elsewhere for better education?

"5. vVhat is the number of cows in milk at pre~ent at the college?

" 6. Is it a fact that the college cows do not produce sufficient to supply the twenty-five st.udcnts with milk and butter, and that cream ha'' to be purchased from farmers around the college for the pur­pose of giving them an adequate supply?

" 7. Is there any justification for carry­ing on an agricultural college with only twenty.five students and a hiFhly paid principal?

" 8. Is it a fact that the manager of the Hermitage State Farm refused to ta!'e delivery of the so·cal!ed Clydesdale

Que.stions. [3 DECEMBEE..) Paper. 2405

stallion for stud purposes, purchased over twelve months ago by the principal of Gatton College?

" 9. What has been done with the horse in question?,'

The SECRETARY FOR AGR!:CULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. J. White, Musgrave) replied-

" 1. Y0s. "2. No. " 3. This question is ambiguous, but,

if correctly understood, the answer is 9 peer cent.

"4. No. " 5. Forty-eight. "6. No. "7. Yes. " 8 and 9. No. No entire horse has

yet been purchased by the principal."

PRICKLY-PEAR SELEOTIONil,

Mr. B. H. CORSER (Burnett) asked the Secretary for Public Lands-

" 1. Is it the policy of his department to mak~ available prickly-pear selections, at a pnce equal -to the value of the land, less the cost of clearing the pear thereon, with compulsory clearing conditions?

"2. If so, would it not be wiser to open land at its full value, payable in twenty years, and supply cash to the sel~ctor to the value of the pear clearing as It proceeds?

" 3. Has he evidence at hand of the hardBhips endured by the average prickly­pen: selectm and his family, with limited capital, who endeavours to pa0• his way and fulfil his clearing 0bligations 'vith­out fin;mcial assistance? . " 4. If not, will he appoint a commis­

SIOn or secure firM-hand information from selectors ? ''

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: CHon. J. Tnlmie, Tommomba) replied-

" 1. No. This was the practice, hut owing to the difliculty of estimating the cost of clearing it was abandoned. Prickly-pear land is nL'W offered at a price that it is thought will induce selec­tion,. c:f course, with compulsory elearing conditions.

" 2. See answer to No. 1. "3. Yes. The hardships and difficulties

aro fully appTeciated ·by the department, and selectors of pr;ckly-p~car land who, though perhaps arc not strictly complving with their conditions, yet are showi,;:g a bona fide attempt to do so, receive every consideration and ne<'d have no fear of harsh tr00.tm0nt.

"4. See answer to No. 3."

SINGLE MEN lllMIGRANTS.

Mr. HAMILTON (Gregory) asked the Premier--

" 1. II ow many single men immigrants have arriwd in Queensland during the last month?

" 2. How many are booked and due to arrive within the next three months?"

The PREMIER (Hon. D. F. Denham, O~ley) replied-

" 1. 234.

"2. That can only be ascertained from the Agent-General by cable."

CERTIFICATES ON ELECTORAL CLAIM FORMS.

Mr. ADAMSON (Rockharnpton) asked the Home Secretary--

" 1. Has his attention been called to the action of the police magistrate at the bi­monthly electoral court held in Rock­hampton :re~terday?

" 2, Does he endorse the action of tho police magistrate as regards the necessity of certificates being signed by the person who fills in applicant claim forms for the electoral rolls ?

"3. If so, is not this a distinct violation of the promise made by him to this House during the recent debates on the Elec­toral Act Amendment Bill?"

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J_ G. Appel, Albert) replied-

" 1. Yes. "2. Y(;s. " 3. I gave definite instructions to the

Principal Electoral Registrar regarding this matter, but he has failed to carry them out. The ekotoral registrar has been called upon for a report regarding his failure to carrv out the instructions, and every effort ;vill be made to pre­serve the rights of those persons 1vhose claiim, through no fault of their own, have bPen rejected."

FREE RAILWAY PASSES TO NAVVIES.

Mr. FOLEY (Jfundingb"rra) asked the Secretary for Railways---

" Is it his intention to grant free passes to the navvies on construction work on the Northern and North-western Rail­ways similar to las: year?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILW.AYS replied-

" Yes. Instructions have already been issued"

PAPER.

The PREMIER: I beg to lay on th& table a despatch conveying His Majesty's assent to " An Act to secure supplies of meat for the uses of His Majesty's Imperial Government during war and for other pur­poses." I observe that the Secretary of State says- . . ..

"I am deeply 1mpressed by this strur­ing manifeKtation of the readiness of the Government, Parliament, and people of Queensland to assist His Majesty's Government in the present emergency."

(Hear. hear!) I move th~:.t the paper be printed.

Question put and passed.

Hem. D. F. Denham.]

2406 Land Act [ ASSElVIBL Y.] Amendment Bill.

RAILWAYS APPROVED BY PARLIA­::\IENT, 1910 TO 1913.

On tho motion of Mr. THEODORE (Ghillayoe), it was formally resolved-

" That there be laid upon the table of this House a return showing-

1. The railways that have been ap­proved by Parliament during the session~ of 1910, 1911, 1912, and 1913, respectiVely.

2. The proposed length and estimated cost of each of thP'e railways.

3. The particulars of the railways that have been completed-(a) mile­age; (b) cost.

4. The particulars of the railways that are in course of construction­(a) mileage; (b) cost.

5. The particulars of the railways the construction of which has not yet been commenced-(a) mileage,; (b) cost."

HEAL'l'H ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION.

The HOME SECRETARY: I beg to move-

" That the House will, on Monday next, rewlve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desir­ableness of introducing a Bill to amend section 153n of the Health Acts 1900-1911." '

The section in question deals with the re­gistration of private hospitals, and tho ~mendment which I am seeking leave to mtroduce proposes that .a proviso shall be ad.d-;d to the sention giving power to the Mmister, upon the report of the Commis­sioner for Public Health that a certificate of registration should be granted to a private hospital, to issue an order to the local a\lthority for the registration of such hos­pital. This !s si~ply bringing this matter mto conformity w1th other matters in con­nection with local authorities, and the object is that in case of applications being m'ade to the local authority in country towns where perhaps, there are only two medical mer: who arc disagreeing with one another, the mat~cr shall be relegated to the highest medwal authority, the Commissioner for Public Health, so that he may decide whether a certificate shall be issued or not.

Question put .and passed.

LAND ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I beg to move-

" That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend section 4 of the Land Act of 1910 with reference to the definition of 'improvements.' "

I may point ont that as far as the Lands Department is <'oncernecl the word " im­provements" in the Act has been held and is held, to include any bore that m~y ,be sunk as a substantial improvement for which compensation mav be granted when a lease ~xpires. Since the passing of the Rights m w·ater and Water Utilization and Con­servation Act, however, a doubt seems to

[Hon. J. G. Appel.

have ari,;en in the minds of indh·iduals who have lm·ge interests at stake as to whether such is the cc<se, and it is thought that this doubt might prejudicially affect them to some extent in financing their properties. We have, therefore, thought it right to remove all doubt from the nublic mind and from the minds of tenants of the Crown in that respect. This Bill is simpls to declare what the law is as it is regarded, and bas alwavs been regarded. by the cleparlment­namely, that a bore is a permanent improve­ment for which compensation may be granted. That is the full scope of the Bill, and there is no desire to amend the Act in any other respect.

Mr. HUNTER (Jlara.noa) : I am sure that every member of the House i~ very glad to know that the Minister is taking steps to facilitate the efforts of those en­gaged in the pastoral and o1her industries with regard to financing. I think it would be well if in addition to amending the Land Act 'in that particular, the Minister saw fit to bring down other amendments which are equally de~irable. The House might spend its time very profitably even at this late period of the session in dealing with some of the anomalies that are to be found in tho Act. Without delaying the House to any degree, I move that the motion be amended by inserting at the end thereof the following words :-

"and also clauses 71 and 105 in cer­tain particulars."

Those clauses deal with agricultural selec­tions, more particularly with agricultural homestead selections. Section 71 provid•cs that where land is opened alternatively for agricultural homestead selections and agri­cultural farm selection and the applications are simuJt.aneous!y lodged, priority should be given to the homestead appliotnt, but in that conn~ct.ion the department fails to ap­preciate the homestead selection, and, in con­sequence, never by any chanc~, or very rarely, throws open land ulternahvely under those two headings. Consequ0ntly, the home­stead selector has not an opportunity of com­ing in and lodging an application 'mel obtain­ing that prioritv which wus contemplated when that section of the Act was passed. 'I'h<' consequence is that we have people select· ing land in large areas, practically for the purpose of trafficking in it, while we are not placing people on the Janel who \rant to go in for agriculture. On that account nartly, I think we have not as many people engaged in cultivation as they have in other States. In proportion to the amount of land we have alienated, we have a much smaller quantity cultivated than other States in the Common­wealth. I notice that in Queensland the per­centage of land under cultivation of the total area alienated is 3.53, whilst in New South Wales it is 10.53, Victoria 19.70, South Aus­tralia 62.40, and Western Australia 13.26. That is a lamentable state of affairs, and I think provision should be made in the sec­tions I have mentioned to allow the Go­vernment to have the land selected for agri­cultural purposes rather than merely to realise on the public estate. We have a large area of good agricultnral land which has been practically passed over to the people who arc trafficking in land, holding it until a railway may pass through it, and then disposing of it t<J unfortunate selectors at high prices. I think that the public "estate should not be dealt with in that way, and the House has a

Land Act (3 DECEMBER.~ A1. uulnu n, Bill 2407

duty to take into account that it is possible, by rpnson of the provisions of the sections to which I have referred. An obliging Min­i;tN for Lands and a needv Treasurer are ,, ble to collabort~te to dispose of the public

,,t.ase, and we are si1npl:y disposing of our hnds in order to replenish our Trea,ury until we >~ill finally find ourselvh bankrupt as to good agricultural land. It c;;:cnot be oaid th~~~ our popuh:;tion doep; not "'Tarrant our t ·kin(r this cu,, of thz· land. \Ve have spent a larg~ an:'-ount of m_s>ney in immigration, sometlnng hke £4.000,000 and if those people .are to be provided with land in order to enable them to secure homes, land of a suit­able description should be obtainable bv them. Unfortunately, we have· not the number of people we should have for the amount of money we haYe spent. but wo should try to -do something for those who do come her~ .. and mv opinion is that if the Minister will accept tho amondmenL, something may be clone in the direction of placing our lands at the dis-1Josal of those who are anxious to become ·workers and producers in the State. I have much pleasmre in moYing the amendment I hwe indicated.

The SECRETARY FOl~ PUBLIC LANDS: 11uch as I would like to me,,t the wishes of the han. member in this respect, I am sorry I cannot do it at this late stage of the session, ·b,· accc11ting an amendment which might pro­tra<'t it beyond the desires of han. members. l am quite in sympathy with any hon. mem­h·r who is desirous of seeing land settlement o£ such a character that those who take up land will have to reside upon it. As a matter of fact, I might say that the land thrown ·open for selection at· the present time carries jn alrnost eyery case, no mattPr 1,vhai may b~ the character of the land thrown open in ·small areas for settlerg, such cDnditions tint. any person has the right to come in and mak•· priority application, and that prioritv "pplication carries with it resiclE'nce for five "0ars. the same as it does under ordinary 11omesteacl selection. so that the desire of the hon. member is met in that direction.

2\lr. HFN1'ER: Not unless it i~ gazetted al­ternatiYdy.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It does not matter what the land is, any pe_rsm;t has the right to p]It in a priority ap­phcatwn.

::1:1 r. HUNTER: You do not give him the right by gazetting it.

The SECRE'rARY FOR FCBLIC LANDS: I am sorry that the hon. member does not understand. \V e will take land thrown open, say, as an unconditional selection. \V e will say that the land is thrown Dpen under or­dinary agricultural farm selE>ction, and the bon. member and I are applicants for that land. I apply under the ordinary conditions, and the hon. member fills in a prioritv claim. 'rhat priorit,- elaim gi\·E's him the ri[!ht to tlw land over myself. He gets the 1ancl, and it is refused to me. 'rhat is the law to-clay.

:Mr. Hl!NTER: Nn, it is not.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I am wrry that the hon. member cloc•s not under"tand. Priority conditions m·erride 11!1 conditions, whether it is alternatiYe or not. At the present time a' much land is taken up under orclinarv home>-tead con­ditions as was taken up .. under those con­ditions at any time. I remember that at one time when land wa.> thrown op'.•n for s<~lec­-tion it was possible to evade th<• Ad, a·d

it i· e.till possible that the _\ct raay be e;·aded. It is almost impossible to say that e\·erv man is a bona flcle selector, but the pror-~rtion of the country talmn up unckr th(· < ,mdition of per·<lhtl residence is grcatc·r tc1an it hr,s been at any time.

Mr. LE:-!XON: The people do not know it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I c;,.nnot answer conundrums of that kind, eYen though they come from the hon. member for Herbert. If he does not know it, it is quite pos·,iblc that some of his con­stituents do not know it either. I \vould be very plcac,ecl to consent to amend the scope of the Bill if it were not so late in the session. I know that there are anom­alies in the Land Act. The officers of the department and myself haye been noting these anomalies with a Yiew to secur­ing amendments. Certain things are happen­ing every clay which show weaknes,es in the Act, but it is bad policy to tinhr with the Land Act. 'When you make amendments with the Land _'\.ct, you want to introduce a Bill nractically in a ne-w condition, embody­ing all the amendments proposed. I hope the hDn. member for Maranoa will be satis­fied with the explanation I haYe giYen, and will be content to let this motion go ao; it is at the present time. I have already told hon. members that it is confined to one idea, and that is to remove any doubt that might be in the minds of some individuals. I am sorry that I cannot accept his amendment, but the time may come when we will amend the Land Act, and if the conditions are un­satisfactory so fr,r as residence is concerned, the han. member will have an opportunity of moying what amendments he thinks are necessary.

Mr. HA::\HLTO~ (Gregory): This is the first intimation I havv had that priority con­ditions do not apply to agricu,J.tural farms the same as to grazing farms. I understand that the Act provicle3 that anyone applying under homestead conditions will have priority. If that is not so, the Act should be altered. The hon. member for i\Iaranoa says that he knows instances where it does not apply, and if there io any ambiguity it should be removed, just as the doubt should be removed as proyided in the motion. \V e know very well that so far as grazing farms are concerned, they aro thrown open first as grazing homesteads, and if after they have remained open for a certain period there are no applicants, they are withdrawn and may be taken up as grazing farms, and it might be well that agricultural farms were placed definitely on the same basis. If there

is an anomaly in the Act in that [4 p.m.] matter, or if there is an idea

amongst the people that. they cannot take up land a' agricultural lwme­steads unleo;s it is gazetted as such, it would be a very simple thing to remedy it.

Mr. MORGAN (Jlurilla): The explanation given by the Minister is perfectly correct. In my electorate the thing is occurring almost every week, and I know of cases where lands have been opened to unconditional selection, and men have put in p1·iority claims, and the commissioner haR al!otted the land to them, notwithstanding the fact that someone else had offered a greater price for the land than it was originally opened at but without the residence conditions. That meets the conllitions referred to by the han. member for Maranoa. The only

Mr. Morf'an.]

...

Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Ammdment Bill.

complaint I have to make in connection with this matter is, that when the land is opened to unconditional selection, the proclamation should state that those who applied for it under residence conditions would get priority. I quite agree that there are some people who do not know that they will get priority if they apply under the residence conditions, but that difficulty could easily be got over by stating in the advertisement in the local papers, and in the proclamation, that those who intend to rec1ide personally on the land will get priority.

Mr. D. H. CORSEP. (Burnett): I have never come across any trouble in this con­nection as most of the land that is any good, if it is near a railway, is opened up under the residence conditions. I know there are certain area,, di~tant from a rail­way, where it would not be a fair thing to suggest that a man should be compelled to rr,ide there personally for five years, and in tho~e Cl!,es il is left optional for an in­tcndir.,'"": sf'lector to con1e along and sug!{est that h~' will live there for five years, and, if h!! doC'$ do so, he gets preference. If he were to take the land up as an uncon­ditional selection he could, by app1ication to the Lands D<>partment, get it converted into a home;,tead selGction if he wished to do so.

Mr. HUNTER: He could not convert it into a homestead selection.

:\ir. B. H. CORSER: He could convert it into 0, homc:ste,ad selection if there was any benefit to be derived from doing so. It is '"ot very often th .'rG is any benefit to be derived. It might happen that after a man has taken up a piece of land he finds that he has paid too much for it, and the Crown lands ,:,ng-er po~ ibly admih that he has paid too much for it, and under those con­ditions he could forfeit his selection and then n;,1elect under the re±'idence conditions.

Mr. HuKTER: That is quite a different thing.

Mr. B. H. CORSER: It means the sJ.me thing and if any man desires to take up land 'under the residence conditions, it is possible for him to do so, and he will get priority.

Mr. RYAN (lhrcoo): I think the han. me1nber for JY:LHan"a may be congratulated on having taken advantage of the aNcnd­ment sought by the Minister to the Land Act to move the amendment he has done. A good deal of difficulty may be got over bv the Minister giving an undertaking that in the opening of lands for selection thev will be opened alternately !tS agricultural farms or r<s agricultural homc,teads, as the appli­cants for the land under the hnmestead con­ditions will then get priority. \Vhat the han. member for :i\faranoa has pointed out i3 that vMv often the land is not thrown open altcrn&tel:v, but is simply thrown opon in one form. and in such cases priority may not be given to the applic~tnt for an agricultural hom8otPad.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS : I quite understand what you an driving at, but I would like time to consider the matter b0fr;re giving an undertddng of that kind.

Mr. RYAN: It must be obvious that it is not alwa"'?3 don~•, or the l\Iinisicr would not have heshated to give such an undertaking.

The SEC'RETA:RY FOR PUBLIC LAND!': I say I quite agree with th<> ide3..

Mr. RYAN: The object of tho amendment is to make it impemt:ve, in all cases, that

[Mr. Morgan.

the land should be thown open alternately, so that the applicant for the homestead may have priority. I understand that his object with regard to section 105 of the Land Act is that the leases shall be subject to the con­dition of cultivation as well as to personal r0'idence during the term. That would be­a distinct advance in the direction of making­it imperative to have cultivation on agri­cultural selections.

Mr. MoRGAN : If it is suitable for cultiva­tion.

Mr. RYAN: Any land that is thrown operu as agricultural homesteads should be suitable for cultivation. If, in son1e cases, it is not, it only shows the necessity for having the· classification of land, such as I referred to the­other day on the want of confidence motion that I moved, on which I did not have the support of han. members opposite. I hope­han. members will see their W<~y to carry the motion, and that the amendments which the han. member for Maranoa has outlined will be inserted in the existing Act with the amendment pointed out by the Minister.

Question-That the words proposed to added (.:lfr. ·Hunter's amendment) be added-put"; and the House divided:-

AYES, Mr. Adam•on

" Barber

" Bertram

" Bowman

" Coyne

" Fihelly

" Foley

" Gilday Gillies Hunter Ruxham

Tellers: Mr. Coyne

Mr. Allan , Appel

.\reher , Barnes, G. P.

NoEs,

Bnrnes, \'\'~". If. Bell

,, Booker , Bridges ,, Corser, B. H. , CorN,'r, E. B. C. ., Crawford

Cribb T':t,nham

, Douglas Grant

, Gray.son , Hodge

21. Mr. Kirwan .. IAmd

Larcom be May

" 11cCormack O'SuJlivan

" Payne Rvan Tfu.,ndore

" Winstanley

and Mr. Land.

33. Mr. Kessell

Luke , Macartney

Ms..ckav ::uacro.inan

, :Mor0',an , Pu""v~t ,. P~trw

Lieut.·Col. Rankiu Mr. ~t('vens

Tolmie Trent Voyr{r1A

\.Valk,·r White '\Yilliam~

Tellers: Mr. B. H. Corser and Mr. JIIorgan. Resolved in the negative.

ba SQ.

I\fr. HARDACRE (LPichhardt) : Alth01;.gh the amendment moved by the han. memoe1· for 11 aranoa was not carried, I still think th<.' motion is altog-ether too narrow in its scope. and I propose to add to it, by way of amendment. tho:· following words: "and other sections of the ~aid Act." That will enable us to deal with some matters in the Land .\.ct in addition to the particular one the l\Iini,;b•r wants to confine us to. I want to point out two thing' that ought to be attended to, c·ven at thi• late hour. We have had a promise for some years now from the Minister for Lands-not the present Minister, although I think the p1:esent Minister endorsed the promise-that there should be introduced an amendment of tho fencing provisions of the Land Act. We know that they are very complicated,

Testator's Family [3 DECEMBER.] Maintenance Bill. 240!);

and a great deal of difficulty is expe;ienced in deciding who shall bear the cost of half of the fencing, what are the boundaries, and so on. Then, yesterday we had an important decision given in the Full Court which the Minister says is not finished yet. That decision demands that, even at this late stage of the session, an amendment of the Land Act should be introduced, because, while the matter may be continually in the courts, we are in this precarious position. The law, as determined by the Full Court, is that any one of our innumerable grazing h:ssees can personally hold on to their agist­ment rights for the whole of the unexpired term of their lease without btoing liable in any way. That is a state of things that ought not to be allowed to exist for five minutes--

The SPEAKER : Order ! I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I cannot allow him to proce.,d. The amendment which he suggests is so comprehensive that he might actually mean alterinjl' the whole of the Land Act of 1910. If suc11 amendments are contemplated, they would require an appropriation and would have to be initiated in Committ0e. I cannot allow the hon. member to proceed with his amendment.

Original question pnt and paN!ed.

FIRST READI;-;G.

The Bill was read a first time, and the second reading made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

TESTATOR'S FA:vHLY MAIKTENANCE BILL.

CoMMITTEE-LEGISLATIVE CouNCIL's A)lENDMENTS.

(Jfr. Stodart, Logan, in the chair.)

On clause 3-" Testltor's estate liable for maintenance of wife, huehand, or children"-

The HO:I-IE SECRETARY: The first amendme·nt of the Legislative Council was the insertion of the words-

'' or whose circumstances are such as make such refusal reasonable."

The amendment provided that the court could refuse to make an order in favour of any person whose character Ol' conduct dis· entitled him to that order. It was thought that a child might be left in excellent cir­cumstances and there would be no need to cause a d<wiation from the will. Tho amend­ment was a reasonable one, and he moved that it be agreed to.

Question put and passed.

The HOME SECRETARY: The next amendment was in subclause ('f), where the Council inwrted the words-

" by such order or any subsequent order." It was pointed out that information might become available to warrant the court re­viewing its order. It was reasonable to give the court that power, and he moved that the amendment be agreed to.

Question put and passed.

The HOME SECRETARY: The next amendment was in subclause (7), in which the Council inserted the words-

" or the Curator of Intestate Estates, or the Curator in Insanity, or any of their

deputies, or the Director of the State Children's Department, or any person actinl;l' as the next friend of any infant."

1'he clause as originally drafted stated that an executor could apply on behalf of any person, but it was pointed out during the­debate in the Council that an exec\Itor might not be too keen in guarding the interests of these persons, and it was thought necessary to give power to the officers named, or any person acting as the next friend, to look after the interests of the;m persons. It was a reasonable amendment, and he moved that it be agreed to.

Mr. HARDACRE was pleased to see the· Council had insert<:d the amendment and that the Minister had accepted it. He had pointed out when the Bill was before thB" House that there was a. good reason for including snch an amenduwnt in the Bill,. but the Minister would not accept it.

Question put and passed.

The HOME SECRETARY: The next amendment was in subclaui'e (8) of the sam8' clause. It was pointed out that under the· original subclause the application of the court would have to start within three months of the date that probate of thE> will was granted. In distant places, especially if there was any delay owing to floods or other caus,·s, people might not be enabled to take action within three months. The Legislative Council's amendment provided that proceedings must be initiated within six months. The court had Rufficient power to prevent any delay in the proceedings. The amendment 'vas a good one, and he moved that it be agreed to.

Question put and passed. On clause 5-" Court ma.y make rules"-

Tho HOME SECRETARY: The Legis­lath·c Council added the following para­graphs to the clause :-

" Such rules of court may provide, that <~pplicant.; in particular cases may be required to ~·ive scmuity for the costs­of and in conm,ction with applico,tions.

" All such rules of court shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament within forty day'l after the making· thereof if Parliament is then sitting, or, if not, then within forty days after the com­mencement of the next session of Parlia­nlent.''

'fhc object of this amendment was to prevent persons from applying for an order under tho will in their own favour without any risk of having to find any money to pay the costs and thus throwing upon the estate the whole, of the onus to pay the costs in connection with such proc0edin.g?.. It '""~ rca,,onable to leave it to the court to make rules to obviate such a happening. The court could easily be intrusted tu deal with the matter in their dis~retion and to decide that in such appli· cations security for costs would be given. He moved that the ,amendment be agreed to.

Question put and passed.

The House rE,,umed. The CHAIR~IAN n•ported that the Committee h11d agreed to­the Council's amendments in the Bill.

The report was adopted, and the Bill ordered to be returned to the Council by rnessage in the usual forn1.

lion. J. G. Appel.l

"2410 Raillt ,,,~ Traction Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railless Traction Bill

RAILLESS TRACTION BILL. CouNCIL's A''T',ND)IE)(TS-INFRINGE~IENT oF

PHIVILEGES OF ASdE}IBLY. ,,

On the Order of the Day being read fOI the consideration in Committee of the Coun­cil's arncndrnent~ in this Bii~,

The SPEAKER caid : Before the House ,goes into Committee to consider the amend­ments in this Bill, I desire to draw atten·

tion to the proposed new clause [4.30 p,m,] 12, which empowers the Minister,

under certain circumstances, to purchase the undertaking, or any part of it, from the constructing authority. In my ,opinion this clause is a clear infringement of the privileges of this House, which has the sole right of originating and creating ,charges ; and the Bill as passed by tlns ,Chamber contained no such authority to lhr, Minister.

Co:IIMITTEE.

On new clause 7-" Provi~ion for public traffic"-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \'YORKS (Han. W. H. Barnes, Bulirnba) : Han. mem­bers would see that the Council had inserted the following new clause after clause 6:-

"The constructing enthority shall pro­vide and run trolley vehicles and mch other vehicles as are authorised to run in connection with the undertaking in sufficient nu'Y!bm·., f•}>" the accommodation of the public from the hour of seven o'clock in the morning until ten o'clock in the evening of every day except Sunday."

It would l1e at once apl)arent to hon. mem, bE'rs that this was an imnrovement to the Bill, and he moved that the amendment be :agreed to.

J\1r. RYAN thought the amendment was an improyement, but if it was going to be enforced in the manner in which a similar provision in the Act under which the Bris­bane Tramways Company were operating it would not be of mu~h use, because that pro­vision was not enforced. At the present time trams in Brisbane were yery often ,overcrowded to a scandalous extent, as car3 were not run " in sufficient numbers for the accommodation of the public from the hour Qf seven o'clock in the morning until ten ,o'clock in the evening"; and he should like to know from the Treasurer whether it was intended that this clause should be enforced. The other day, after 'Waiting till seven trams passed, he had the greatest difficulty in getting on to a tram to ride up Queen street, and he had to hang on as fast 38 he could on the steps at the back. On tho tram were some high police officials, and he thought they saw him but they made no remark. He asked the Treasurer if he could not get some better accommodation for the public on the Brisbane trams, because he b<'liev<'d that the hon. gentleman had great influence with the Home Secretary, if he liked to use it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS, He must congratulate the leadm· of the Opposition and the country on the fact that, notwithstanding the 1·isk he ran the other day. the hon. member escaped any serious accident. This amendment would certainly be enforcod, and any company concerned would have to carry out its provisions.

Ccuestion put and passed.

[11(·~ W. D. Armstrong.

On ;laus,·· 8-" Trolley vehicles not to be deemed hcuvy traffic, etc."-Tlw SECRETARY lOR PUBLIC \'\·OHK?:

The Council propooed to omit clause 8, whiCh rNtd as follows :-

'' Tro!lt•v vehicles shall not be deemed to bo or 'con,.ticuto oxtro.ordinary traffic within the meaning of any by-law made bv a local authority under thr Local ~~uthorities Acts, and shall not be ?eemed to be motor cars or motor vohwles or exceptional traffic within the meaning of the Traffic ~\cts, 1905 to 1910, or any regulations made thereunder,''

If hon. members would turn to the explana­tory synopsis of the Bill, they would find that it was there stated-

" Tho tro!lev vehicles of the proposed svstem are n,;t to constitute extraordin­arY traffic SO as to enable a local authoritv t'o make bv-laws charging the cost of -the road maintenance _rendered necessary by the system. :r~Js seems fair, because by later provisiOn of the Bill periodical contributions for these purpos<:' have to be made by the !'<;n­strul'ting authority. The trolley vehiCles are al,:o deemed not to be motor cars or exceptional traffic under the Traffic Act. in district' where tho~e Acts apply."

He thouG'ht it would be unsafe to agree to the omie~ion of the clause, and consequently moved that the amendment be disagreed to.

Question put and passed.

On clau,e 18-" Contributions towards road­making'"-

The SECHETARY FOR P'C'BLlC 'WORKS: Clause 10 provided that where the construct­ing authoricv ,,-as not a local authodty or a joint local authorit:r, it sh~mld pay annually to the local authonty hanng contr?l of the road towards the cost of the mamtenance oi s~ch roatb. s1<II1 to be prescribed by regulation and not being less than three­eighth parts of a penny per car mile run by the trollev vehiclE's belonging to the con­structing authority. Then followed this pro-viso:- . .

" Provided that nothing in th1s sectron shall apply to trolley vehicles run by the constructing authority at cheap fares for tho labouring classes."

He thought it, would be a pity to intcrf~re with the ,provision as it left the Assembly, and, therefore, _moYed that the Council's amendmr,nt be disagreed to.

Question put and passed.

On clause 11-" Purchase of undertaking by local authority or joint local authority"-

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: 'The Council proposed to omit the whole of this clause. He moved that the Council's amendment be disagreed to. Hon. members would understand that in disagreeing to the omission of clause 11, that would m<Can that they would disagree to clauses 11 and 12, as inserted by the Council, ~he latter of which as the Speaker had pomted out, was an 'infringement of the privileges of the Assembly.

Mr. THEODORE: He agreed with the Treasurer that the Committee should dis­agree to this amendment. but thought that if thcv ret>tined the clause they should adopt the phraseology in new clause 12, which stipu­lated that in case of compulsory purchase the purchase should be at the present value

Ra ille,;,q Traction Bill. [3 DECEMBER.] Go-operaitve Production Bill. 2411

"f the plant, buildings, m~chinery, and "ppurtenanc<'' "without any allowance for goodwill.'' He did not know wlwther they would have power to make that amendment in clauS<· 11, but if they had such power it would be desirable to do so as it would <eftabli>h "n adclil·ional safeguard.

The SECRETARY FOR PT.,;BLIC \YORKS thought the clause as it stood was sufficiently comprehensive. He had diocucc;ed the matter fully with the Parliamentary Draftsman, who said that it amply covered all points. But, apart from that, he had his doubts as t(} whether it would be competent for the Committee to amend the clause as suggested.

Question put and passed.

On new clause 11-" Duration of order"­The SECRETARY FOR PDBLIC WORKS :

For the reasons already given, he moved that the Committee disagree tu the Council's amendment inserting new clauses 11 and 12.

Mr. THEODORE: He did not know that ,it might not be necessary to retain the dause. He was not sure whebher it did not stand by itself. If it had the effect of placing a limit upon the duration of an Order in Council, it might be desirable.

The SECRETARY FOR l'UBLIC WORKS : It is provided for in clause 11.

Question put and passed.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR PDBLIC WORKS, the Council's amend­ments to the effect that the Governor in Council might make regulations fixing " the maximum fares to be charged " and tho " number of vehicles to be run between cer­tain hours" were agreed to.

The Council's amendments in the schedule \\·ere also agreed to.

The House resumed. The GHAIR:Il:AN re­ported that the Committee had disagreed to some of the Council's amendments, and agreed to others. 'J'hc report was adopted, and the Bill wns ordered to be returned to the Council with the following message :--

•' Mr. Presiding Chairman, '• The Legislative Assembly having

had under consideration the Legislative Council's amendments in the Raillcss Traction Bill, hl·g now to intimate that they--

" Disagree to the omission of clause 3; because unless the twlley vehicles are exempted from the by-laws. of the local authorities they would be liable to double taxation by the local authorities.

" Disagree to the omission of the proviso tc clause 10; because it is desir­able to encourage persons to reside in the suburbs and thus avoid the uonge~­tion of the citieili.

" Disagree to the omission of clause 11 and to the insertion of the proposed new clausEJS 11 and 12; because the pro­posed new clause 12, which empowers the Minister under certain conditions to purchase the undertaking or any parb thereof, is in violation of the privileges of the Legislative Assembly, to whom belongs the sole right of initiating and creating charges-which reason they hope that the Legislative Council will recognise as sufficient.

" And agree to the other amendments in the Bill."

CO-OPERATIVE AGRIOPLTURAL PRODUCTION BILL.

Cmr:c.nrEL

Clause 1 put and passed.

On clause 2-" Interpretation"-Mr. HUNTER: It appeared that on !ina

15, page· 2, there was an omission in the definition of " works." The definition in­cluded " all tramways leading thereto," whereas in other parts of the Bill wharves also were included. He thought it wafJ a printer's omission, and moved that the words " wharves and " be added after the word '' all."

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE said he could see no valid reason for adding the words proposed, in view of the reference to " all land used in connection with any such tramway" later on in the definition. The object of the Bill was not to erect wharves, but simply to assist the primary producer to erect factories in the immediate vicinity of its own work, and for that reason he did not propose to accept the suggestion.

Mr. HU='!TER was very much surprised to hear tho Minister say that he was not pre­pared to accept the amend;ne':lt. ~o hi~ mind, thure could bo no harm m msertmg 1t, and a good deHl of harm might be cau&ed by leav­ing it out. A co-operative company might grow so big as to have a t.ramline running on to a wharf, where they had a sbore. That was not covered by the clause, although provision wns made elsewhere in the Bill in regard to wharves as well as tramways. The Minister hac! not told the Committee in what po0sible wav tho operations of the co-op0rators would be "intet·forcd with if the amendment wore in­sorted. Ac·"ording to the opinions expressed by

hon. members, co-operative enter­l5 p.m.] prise in Queensland amongst pro-

ducers was likely to as~ume very large dimensions. In Sweden and other coun-1 ri(:, very large companie3 amongst producers had !wen formed, and there was no reason whv co-operative enterprise should not assume such brg·o dimensions in Queensland. If that came about, they might not only want wharYes, but even to own ships, and he failed to see that any injury would accrue from the insertion of the amendment. Clause 13 already provided-

" For the purposes of this Act, the Min­ister, on behalf of the company, shall have power from time to time to take, pur­chase, contract for the use of, or other­wise provide any land which may be re· quired for the works or any tramway, wharf, or any work in connection there­with."

Seeinu- that it was included in clause 13, it seeme"d to him a pure omission that it was not included in clause 2. and the Minister would do well to reconsider his decision and allow the amendment to go in.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIGCLTURE: When it was suggested that wharves should be included, he gave the matter serious con­sideration but it must be remembered that a wharf ~vas not good security for the Go­vernment, as it might we washed away at any time. Tho depreciation on a wharf, too, was so very great that it would be a very bad security for the Government to hold, and

Han . .T. White 1

2412 Oo-opemth.·~: Agricultumzl [ASSEMBLY.] Production Bill.

if ever a company got to the dimonsions men­tioned by the hon. member for Maranoa, he was quite sur<; they would be in a position to erect wharvc·s without any assistance from the Govornn1ent.

Amendment (Jlr. Hunte1·'s) put and nega-tived.

Clause put and pass<ecl.

On clause 3-" Application for advances"­Mr. GILLIES (Eaclwm) moved that, after

the word "producers," on line 37, the words "or who have agreed in writing with the company to become producers," be inserted. The object of the amendment was obvious. At the tiue of starting the co-operative fac­tory men might not be producers, but if they gave an m;dertaking to the company that ibey wuu!d become producers within twelve month,, tb;:v should be accepted as share­holders, and he hoped tho Minister would accz:pt the mnundn1Cll1li.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE said he was not sm·p•,ised that the han. rnembct· hnrl brought forward this amend­ment.. but if the han. member would look at it u little more clo&ely, he would find that it wndd be a dangerous thing for the co· operath·~ cc:c•pany to insert such an amend­mont. For insb':~nce, a man might agree to become a producer, and afterwards sell his land and not become a producer at all; he would then become a " dry" shareholder, and it might ha;Jpen that the " dry" shareholders in the company would become the majority, and g~t c )ntrol uf the whn!e company. The object of the Bill WliS that the primary proclucr::r:;; f~~lould ah\-ays hold a n1ajority of the ,,har<'F. uncl unctcr tho circuw~t~.nces he hoped the Inn. member w'<mld withdraw the an1endr1:1ent.

1ir. HU::-;;TER: Tlv, ::.Vlinister'~ arJ::ument would apply not only to those who agreed to becom<' pr;Jdu.c,ers, but also to tho'C who were producers at th<· til!te the ft,ctory was established. and the:;· might sell thcir farms, and thus become " dry " shareholders.

The' SECRETARY FOR AGRI 'ULTURE : They could not sell their f±trms.

Mr. II'CXTER: There was nothing to stop t!1em. Tho way to prevent producers becommg dry .'hareholders would be to have a provision in the artides of a,.sociation, that, if a prinwry producer sold out and became a non-producer, his shar(,'S should be trans­ferred to a producc•l'. It was Yery necessary that ~\omv .snch provision shoulD. b0 n1ade in the articles a£ association. The objections to the amendment mggested by the Minister were ko f1im''Y to be entertained for a moment. In most companies th,at he had till) thing to do \\'ith tlwre was a clause in the hrticles of a"sociation providing that produc0rs' shares cou;d not b3 transferred to non~produc{'rs, and it vra~ very seldmn that an)- attempt was made to depart from that rule. In a new di~trict there might be a number of people engaged in an in­dm.try, and oth1•rs who were willing to be­co!ne producers, and it might be suggested that they subscribe enough capital to start a bnttor factory or a cheese factorv. The numl:K"r of shares to be allotted m]'ght be, say, 3,000 at £1 each. To have a majority of share-s, the producers would require to hold 1,501 shares, but there might be only 1,350 producers in the district, and thev could not go on; and if there were 200

[Hon. J. WMte.

others in the district who were prepa.r8d to become producers, they should be allowed to take up shares.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : They could become " dry " shareholders.

Mr. H'CNTER: They would be prevented from becoming "dry " shareholders, as the· number of " dry " shares was limited. He could give more than one in6tance where co-operative factories had beBn e~tablisl;ed, and whore it would have been unposnble· for them to get a!llbistance nuder the Bill, as at present. The butter factory at Chin· chilla could not have been started, and got the benefits of the Bill. Had it not been for the assistance given by the " dry" share­holders in those places there would have been no factories there to-day. One of the moot succo;,6ful butter factories in Queens­land to-day was the one at Roma. He was not complaining about the " ·dry " shareholders, but those who were about to bo<'ome en­gaged in the industry, and they wercc• not allowed to como in as shareholders. If they came in as " dry " shareholders, and exceeded., the number of producing shareholders, then thev could not get the benefit of the Ac,t. There were a number of new districts that would like to take advantage of tho Act, but the" could not do oo if it was insisted UDcn tl~at tho majority of the ;hs,rcholders rriust h'3 produce>rs.

Lieut.-Colonel RANKIN (Burrum) : He did not think it \Vas a desirable thing to accept thr! arncndtnent, bct'HUse he did nnt kno\v ho-\V they \Vere going to enforcB it. Tho amendment was to include those who had agreed in ·writing \vith the oon1pany to be· come produc·c·ro. Tl,e.t would open the door wide fer the e,tablishm~nt of bogus com­panies. If a man did agre{~ in "\Vriting, ho\Y 'A" JrB they going bJ fort"n hin1 to carry out that agreement? The hon. member for :Yiaranoa said the c.o.me thin!!' had been introdnccd in tho Co-opr,\ra.tivc Sug-ar \Yorks Bill. In the cnFQ of the Sugar Works Bill a per.:sun had to be a canegro\ve.r, or agTee to b<•com0 a canegrower, befo!'e he became a shareholrlor. But in the of tht> Sugar \Y arks Bill, the agreement signed by the n;J1.ll \vho rn-oh1is0d to b0t"'omr: a tar!Cg'lO\Yer was endorsed on the man's deeds, and bc­c.-:rll'l' an c-nC'U"Plbra:nce on those de~,,ds, and tb; n1an could not possibly g·ot 011t of h1s agTeen1ont. In the case of the anlendmt~nt the 1nan merPly gave the agreement in writing, and thHe was no provi·1ion to en­for<'"-' it. The rltxuse was a. pPrfectly liberal one as it shod. a, it r~quired that half the share? ''hcu!cl be heid by producPrs. and one-half could be held bv "drv" shareholders. So long as a pGrson i)roduced ~mne of tho articles montioned in the definition he was a primary producer. There was no need fm· him to nrcduce ~II of them. The pl'Oduc·;T~ were mfficiently s1.fcguarded in the clause. It waq, no usc having rn0n in the compl'll;\­whose objed would be to pay large divi­dends, instet1c1 of giving a largEr pricB. t~Y the producer. Although the amount of divi­dend was fixed. thev could water the tstock or give bonnscs. ;md pay dividends in that wa.y, if the.•z had a preponderating influence in the concern.

Mr. B. H. CORSER : The clau;;e as appearing in tho Bill was quito liberal enough, as it provided that 49 per cent. could be "drv" ~hareholders. Of the remain­ing- 51 per c-•i1t., all they had to do was to be primary producers. They need not be

[3 DECEMBER.] 2413

£uppliers to tho fa.ctory at all. They might supply some other factory, but that would not debar them from taking shares and helping to form a co-operative company. There was no stipulation that a shareholder had to supply the factory in which he held shares, but he must be primary producer of the commodities required by the co­operative company. He considered that if a man had a couple of cows and made his own butter, he would be a primary producm·. Some companies were engaged in cheese and butter making, and a person might supply either one or tho other and still ha vo shar~s in a co-operative company. There was nothing to prevent it. That \Vould enable him to assist shareholders in a. new diotrict to establish a co-operative factory. The dause was all right ae it stood, without the amendment.

Mr. GILLIES: There was no definition <Jf " primary producer " in the Bill, and he would like to know the Minister's definition <Jf it.

The' SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : " Primary products " are defined.

::.1r. GILLIES: The term "primary pro­ducor" was so elastic that a number of men reckoned that they were primary pro­ducers when they produced nothing at all. In his electorate a butter factory was started with about thirty or forty suppliers, and 150 selectors took shares in it, although thev -did not produce anything for the factory. "Cnder a Bill of this kind, if they applied to the Minister for "-n ad vance to establish a oo-op0rative factory, it would be refused, because only about 20 per cent. were actually suppliers at the time of starting the new factory.

Tho SEr'RET.\RY FOR AGRICcLTcRE: A primary producer is a producer of pTimary products.

:Mr. GILLIES: If the Minister's definition of " primary [Hoducer " included those who produced a.nything at all, then he would withdraw his amendment. He had no de,ire to give the "dry" shareholder a preponder­ance of votes. In new districts it was nf'r·cs­sary to encour:tge the storekeeper and others to join in c..nd help to start a co-operati>e ooncern. In Byron Bay they had the largect butter faetorv in tho world. There was a provi,ion in "the articles of as,;ocia.tion that all suppliers to the factory must become shareholders. If a supplier was not a share­holder, then 5 per c<:mt. of his crea.m cheque would be withheld until it amounted tD £5, when he would be given £5 of fully paid-up shares. He was in accord with the principle that every shareholder should be a supplier, and every supplier should be a shareholder. If the il1inister considered that a selector who planted Rhodes grass was a primary producer, he would withdraw the amend­ment.

The f:l~CRLTARY FOR AGRICULTURE considered that a selPctor who planted Rhodes grass was a prim.:uy producer.

cdr. HUNTER asked if a man growing pot.atoe,s would be considered a producer and >:ould be allowed to take s~ares in ~ co-opera­tive butter fadc.ry as a primary producer?

-:\-Ir. B. H. CORSER: Onlv if he produces the commoditi0" used by the· company.

11r. HUNTER: Was a man who had a -cert~tin number of cattle a primary producer?

Mr. WALKER: Yes, if he intended to supply th. commodities required.

Mr. HUNTER: That was just the diffi­culty. In new districts there were not a sufficient number of primary producers, and if they had a number who would give an undenaking in writing to become producers, they should be allowed to become shareholders jn the co-operative company. A new selec­wr would not get any benefit at all unless the =''iinister was prepared to stretch the in­bcrprdation of the clause. He considered the an10ndment was a good one, and an impor~ tant one. He was opposed to the drv share­lwlder having a preponderance of po¥-~er.

Mr. WALKER: You are giving it to him.

:Mr. HU::'\'rER: No, he was not. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : You are

trying to. :Mr. HUNTER: He was not. He wanted it

re9trict0d, because he wanted the company to alwllys remain in the hands of the co-opera­tors.

:\:h-. WALKER (Cooroora): H0 had no hesitation in sa:-ing that, so far as the Bill was concerned, it was possible to establish new factories in new districts, because it allowed 50 per cent. of the shareholders to be " dry " shareholders. The Minister had gone out of his way to give a definition of "primary producer," yet they fcmnd the han. member for Maranoa objecting to it. They knew very well that no matter where they started a co-operative butter factorv, or cheese factory, they would get 80 per cent. of actual producers and more t-han 80 per cent. of %zctual suppliers. He ktww oi a case which occurre<;l quite recently whore th--y had every person who was in business in the place, even the local clergyman, taking up scrip in order to C'Stabhsh a factorv. But even in that case on analy"ing the li"'~ of shareholders, he found

that from 70 to 80 per cent. were [5.30 p.m.] actual produce--rs. It was prob-

abl~, however, that in other cen­tre:> where there was a larger population, thf're ,~;ould bu a great<.:: p:::oportion of non~ prorluc,ers, and the result n1if;ht be that the company would be controlled by the towns­Jwoplc, and the profits go into the hands of im-estors. That kind of thing ,;hould be gu-ir<ced a.1miw.-1, and he thought th:tt liberal tnon~,rh provision \Vas Inad.> in the I~ill fc"t e,s~>lbH,~~ing genuine co-ope.ratiYc cninpanics. Some tunc ago the> established an excellent butter factory in the Ather~on di,;;trict, and he SUfl1JOs"'d that thr amcunt of cash the,.: would require for such a factorv a11 was built there ... ~ould b:} about £1,500, ... a s~un ,,l:hi~h coul1 easiiy be raised by 50 per cent. of suppliers and 50 per cent. of " dry " shareholders forn1ing a company.

Mr. GILLIES: What he wanted to be clear about was whether a man who took up land, felled the 'lcrub, and planted grass with the intention of becoming a primary producer, but had not yet produced any cream or butter, would be considered a primary producer within the meaning of this Bill. Could such men combine together and start a facfory under the provisions of the Bill ? If the Minister would say that his idea of a primary producer was a selector who intended to become a supplier of cream or other products, then he would be satisfied.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Before introducing this measure he had obtained a report on the whole ~f the co­operative factories at present in existence and he found that in many cases three: fourths of the shareholders were suppliers,

Hon. J. Whif".l

2!14 Go opcratire Agricultural [ASSEMBLY.] Production Bill.

and that in nearly every case the majority of the shareholders were suppliers. Per­sonally, he thought that the majority of the shareholders Fhould be suppliers, otherwise t!F> Govcrncncnt woald have no protection in advancing the < umpany £1 for £1. They "anted to see that the ~harGholder,, were c-uffici~ntly interested in the compm1y to guarantee that it would be a success. If they did not make some provision to ensure that. they would have people starting com" paniP" and saying, " \Yo will get 50 per cent. of the money re1uired from the Go­vermncEt, '-o )IC Phall be all right"; and they might not provide their 'hare of tho cash, but get plant and marhinery on credit. For that rea:,on it was provided that the shareholdn.• must find half the capital re­quired in aeh1al cash. At first it was pro· posed that tv. a-thirds of the shMeholder" shonld be sup:pliers, and he still thought that they should have that proportion of suppliers among' the shareholders, hut in deferenc(· to the people in new districts he was agreeable to m,rke it a bare majority. Per:;onally, he would not admnce money for the e'tablish, ment of factoric ,, under this me'"'ure unlesg theru was a r<"'11Sonablo prospect of the com­pany becoming succ--,~sfq I, and it could not be ·'UCC''ssful unless it had a sufficient number of supplier, to keep the factor;y in full opcnttion. He hoped that the- clause would be allowed to go as it was.

Mr. GILLIES : \Vill you accept a new selector ac, a supplier?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: A new selector v. onld have no difficulty in becoming a " dry" sharehold< r with the pros­pect of becoming a " wr.·t " shareholder or supplier later on.

Amendment pi,- Gillies's) put and negatived,

Mr. •GILLIES: He desired to submit an amendnlC'nt prohibiting prox~· Yoting. !'fe moved that, after the word "that" on lmo 40, there be inserted the following wordg :-

" No shareholder shall have more than two votes, and no voting by proxy shall be allowed, and also that."

He had no doubt that the :Minister recog­nised the great eYil of pr:>xy voting in con­nection with butter factories-how an in. fluential person who had lei-,ure went round among the suppliers and got their proxies, and then went to tho meeting of shareholders and carried some resolution to .suit himself He hoped the hon. gentleman would accept the amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: He did not like proxy voting, but he had consulted men who were connected with some of tho most succe,sful factories, and they said that in many cases it would be impos­sible to get a meeting of shareholders if proxies were not allowed. There had been no groat injustice created by the use of proxies, and the supplier very often con· sidered that he was better employed in get­ting cream or some other product from the factory than in attending a meeting of the cr>mpany. But immediately shareholders began to think that the directors were not doing right, every man would turn up to the meeting and see that they carried out their work properly. The articles of association provide<l that a certain number of share­holders must be present at a meetin~, and sometime5 proxy votes were essentral in order to comply with that provision.

~Hon. J. White.

Mr. WALKER said he was glad th& ::.V1inister was not going to accept the amend­ment. He took it that if the amendment were agreed to proxy votes would not b~ allowed on any occasion, and under those circumstances it would ;,ometimes be in:pos­sible to hold a meeting. He held these com­panies should have an elections committee, that all candidates for the position of director should be subject to the rules laid down by such committee, and that the election should be bv postal voting. But it was a mistak& to sa"y that they should not allow proxies to· bn used ;,,t tho ordinary meetings throughout the vear. In ordinarv articles of associa­tion "thev would find clause's that fifteen or twenty ·,_hareholders could call an extra­ordinary meeting h discus,, anything that might have been done iJy the dirBctors. For instance, they might luvP done something y ron g. L·;t to say that every shareholder should come into the fadorv whenever &

meeting was callcCl w~s tiw height of absurditY. He did nst likE· to soc proxies­pulled o"ut of the pigeon-holes and used fot the election of diredorc, ;md that was wh;lt he thought tho hon. membLr want';:! to pro­vide against. Th· ,. mig,ht find. if they re­fused proxie" altCJg-ether, that cliques would be formed of person> who were handy to the, factorv and able to attend meetings; but what they needed was give ,,,.,··rybody an opportunity of having some small ~ay. in the management of tho fuctory, . oven 1f rt were only by mea11" of proxieb. He r~m.embe~ed that at Gympie a mN·ting was held m whwh­a good deal of interest was taken; he hap­pened to be ch&irman at the tim0, and he­had 200 proxies sent to him. and the re•,ult was that none of those shareholders who had signed the petition for the meeting v.oted. ·with re"ard to the two \'ote•·_, he behoved that if ;;: man took the minimum, say, ten shares. he should have one vote, but if a man put in a large sum and took 100 shares or more, he would give 'him som!C' little en('ouragement.

Mr. LENNON: He should have one vote thC' same as the other.

Mr. WALKER : He would not tie them down to a hard-and-fast 1·ule. becau>e it was, after all, a small matter. As a rule, 95 per cent. of the shareholders took up the mini­mum number" of sharE';~' and the company "\vas rp;~Jly a one-vote· concern.

::\Ir. B. H. CORSER: He was not in favour uf tho usc> of proxies fnr elections, but if thev abolished them alto::;ether. there was a danger that the ,,vii which the hon. member who moved the amc·ndmcnt wetnted to guard agaiwt would o0cur. Generally ~peaking, where a factorv was e,tablishod in a new dis· trict, it was established in the township, and it was in that township that the "dry " share­holders wc>re usually to be found. Suppliers who liyecl. perhaps, 20 or 25 mih; out. and had to be home earl~· PaPh evening, could not como in to vow at th? meetings, and proxy ,·oting should be permith•d to allow them to h a vc wme sa v in the management of the factorv, and so that the " dry " shareholder would- not have all the say. He thought it should J'•'>t with the P-•}mpany to say whether any parti,\·ular factory 1vould g ': any bcne·fit from pPlxy voting.

1\Ir. FORSYTH (Jiurru1r bn) : He under­stood that the proposal was that a man who hC~d from m1r- to fift,- ,;hares 'hould haye one· vote, a man wh0 had from fifty to 100 shares

Co-opcrr~li&~ Agri6ultural [3 DECElVIBI'It.] Product1:on Bill. •

2416-

two vutc3, ancl a man \\-ho had 1CO bhare, three Yot' o. He did not alto :rPther agree with th<· hon. member for Herhert. that no n1atter ho1v n1any shan."-'·) a n1an , had, he bhould Ita ve only the same number of v utes as the men who had ten shar,Js. " Drv " share· holder~ did n?t put their money "into the conr£>rn as ,;,n rnvest1nent, bec:tu.::e they could get vl'r.f much higher intHr-st outside. \Yith rc!,.<rd to rwoxies, he thought it would be a mo>t unfair thing to prohibit them alto­gether. bre;C~Fe they might have diquP'-' being formed all over the place. ·what was to prevent the " dry " shareholders, for instance, f01·miilg one, and bec~use they might be handy to the factory, paosing any resolu­tion which might suit them and was en­tirely against the interests of the factory as a whole? They also had to consider that the shares of the " dry" shareholders might be bought up by the " wet " shareholders until practically the whole thing was owned by the farmers themselves, which was what they wanted. He hoped the hon. mE-mber for Eacham would withdraw his amendment, be­cause he did not think it would do much good.

Mr. LENNON: Whilst he regarded the bon. member's amendment as in some re­spects a very desirable thing, for other rea­sons he could not agree t,, it. It might happPn in very remote districts that they v:oulcl ne-t b0 able to gc·t a quorum without proxir-. Th-J\ mi:;ht be provide-d for by an alt<'rat ion of the artic-],,,, <•-f ;,~,-oriation. which h· thought in all rup<·cts ".•re controlled by thP Umnpanies Acts, and that wu, the difli­cultv. The hon. rnen1ber for l\I urrurnba had mi,quoted him in regurd to the voting power. By way of interjection he indicatrcd that he thought th~t a man should have one vote for ten shar0s or one vote for 100 share;;. He did net say that a man should have one vote for any number, because there might be case< where the company wa0 in need of monctar)' asoistance fro:n tlh' we-althy people in the neighbourhood, who might put in a substrmtial sum to put the company on its legs. Such a n1an should httYE' votes in pro­portion to the assistance he had given. In the main he "\Vas in fa your of "one man one vote." and that m0ant " one shareholder one vote.". He was connected with a company, and he advoeated that principle from the start. Under tho old law he was entitled to three votes. but now he was entitled to only ont·, and he did not feel injured in any way. As he could not go all the length that the hon. member for Eacham de,ired hP must votP against his amendment. '

Mr. HUNTER: Perhaps tho Minister would accept the amendment if it were altered. He quite realised that it might be diflicult and cause a good deal of loss of time to produc­ing shareholders if they had to come and vote personally on every question. He thought that the elections of directors should not be by proxy, but then the shareholders would have an opportunity of expressing themselves in the ordinary way by postal vote. With regard to the limitation of voting power, he v0ry seldom gave a vote at all himEelf, and he remembered that when the Roma Butter Factory was established, he urged them to provide that nobody but· producers could have se&ts on the directorate, and he would like to see that provided here, so that no per:>on who was not. a producer would have any say in the direction of affairs at all. He knew that the shareholders of the Roma

Butter Con1pany '"ere -JlTJ tlL,y did l;ot n1akc ~urh a pr:rvi<Jicn. At the inrPpdon of the com,>any there wao n·· dif!iculty, be­cause everv " dry" shareholder was satisfied to put in a "Ub._,~·ription to :<CC the' C'Olllpany started, and it w' ,u]d pay them all now to hand oyer their shares to the company because of the benefit it had been to their businesses. If the amf!ndment were carried for the election of dir<:'ctors without proxy voteo. it would be a cunsiderable advance on the old system.

Mr. GILLIES: He had no desire to press. the amendment in its present form. He­thought the hon. member for Cooroora advanced a go0d argument in favour of restricting proxies when he sa.id it \Yould bu difficult to g·ct sufficient members to constitute-· meetings. If that was so, it would be better to reduPe the number who formed a quorum, b~cu1se. nft,,r e.ll. tho'e who did attend wPre in a bdtf'r po"ition to record their votes than the men who ctayed at home. The difli­eulty in regard to proxies was that an ener­vetic man might get a pocketful and use them at the annual or half-yearly meetings. He­was not referring to direct-ors' meetings, at which most of the business was transacted each month. Surolv shareholders could' make it their business to come along once· or twicA) a Yi' :.:r to express their opinions. If they were not interoet"d to that extent, they "hould not have any power to vote. Some of the co-operative companies with which he had had to do, had agr~ed in

their articles of aFsociation to­[7 p.m.] the principle of the referenda,

and he found on looking up the resolutions pasoed by one particular com­pany he had a'sieted to e.,tablish, that they had pro,-id<'d that the following questions should be 'ettled b:r postal vote:-

" 1. The election of directors of the com­pany.

" 2. The eelection of site for central fac· tory.

" 3. The question as to whether any given branch shall be started or not.

"4. Any question upon which the direc­tors may wish to ascertain the wishes­of the shareholders.

"5. Any question upon which a poll by postal ballot has been demanded bv not le•1s than 15 per Gent. of thE. sharP holders."

If the Minister was willing to accept an amendment to provide that the directors· should be elected by ballot, he would be willing tq withdraw his amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICL'LTURE: The articlE's of association could in every case provide that the directors must br1 elected by ballot. It was provided in the Bill that the articles of association had to be submitted to the Minister for approval, and unless they contained a provision that the directors were to be elected by ballot the Minister would not approve of them. If the hon. member would withdraw his. amendment he would certainly see that the matter was provided for in the articles of association.

Mr. GILLIES: Under the circumstances, he would withdraw his amendment.

Amendment withdrawn accordingly.

:Yir. GILLIES: The clause at present pro­vided that the maximum dividend should be-4 per cent. until such time as the advances.

},{ r. Gillies.]

:2416 Oo-o'!lcrativc Agrwultural [ASSEMBLY.] Production Bill.

"tTe repaid, and as he desired to limit the amount of dividend to 4 per cent. for all time, he mowd the omission, on lines 42 and 43, of the words " before the advances under this .Ad haYe been repaid." That should .appeal to the Minister, as the hon. member h:;cl assured the Committee that it was his -desire to make the Bill a purely co-operatiVe mcasurP, and they knew that where the whole of the shareholders were ouppliers they did not require uny dividend at all. It had ber.•c1 pointed out, time and again, that the "dr,; 'l shrneholdcr-that 'vas the store­},eeper___:clid not become a shareholder in a -co-operative company for the sake of getting dividends, but because he wished to push the dietrict aiong. 'Vhen he was organising secretary of a co-orJerative company in his <listrict he had issued an appeal to the business people in the district, and it was pointed out in that appeal that it was not sought to t<'mpt them to become share­holders in the company for the sake of get­ting dividends, because the policy of the company was not to pay dividends, and it was pointed out that by the establishment of a co-operative company in the district the business people would gain indirectly. The -object of the Bill should be to protect for all time the interests of the producers, and to preYent the "dry" shareholders having a -dominating vote.

Mr. GRAYSON (C,;nninghurn): The han. member who had moved the amendment was fighting a shadow. He (Mr. Grayson) had had a good deal to do with several co­-operative companies established on the Dal"ling Downs, and not one of those com­panies would have been established had it not been for the as~istance of " dry " share­huldcrs. \Vithout the afl.sistance of " drv" J'hareholders. tho \V arwick Butter Company could not haYe been established, and that company was one of the largest and most successful butter companies they had in Queensland. Not only had they a large factory in Warwick, but they had branch ·factories at Allora, Texas, and Goondiwindi. Business people did not put money into co­cperatiYe concerns for the sake of dividends, bnt solely and wholly to assist in the estab· lishment of the company for the benefit of the district, and for the Committee to decide that only 4 per cent. dividends could 'be declared was a step in the wrong direc­tion. He would also like to refer to the \Varwiek Farmers' Milling Company that was started twenty-three or twenty-four years ago, which was the cnly farmers' mill­ing company in Queensland, and the wheat­growers on the Darling Downs would acknowledge that that company would not have been establish0d had it not been for i;he business men and others who assisted by taking shares at the inception of the com­pany. That company had been of great a.<~istance to the wheat-p:rowers on the Darling Down,. The price fixed at the pre~ent time for wheat was not what it should be. and the Farmers' Milling Company bad offerAd the wheat-growers on the Downb tc store their wheat, free of charp:e, until. the price of wh<eat was settled, as it would 'be much higher in the near future. In new rlistricts it would be an utter irn.vossi­bil +: for farmcr9 to <"~tablish a butter f:v:tory without acsistance from the local bu~inE:"-1"-l n1PH. 1Yho. as rule. derived as n,,llf"'h h0r"'fit fro111 t.he P"tabliwhn1ent of a buttPr bctorv or f!ourmill ae the fe rmr>:·s thPmsE'lYeR. 'He rev,retted ""ry much that

[Mr. fHllir~.

the han. member for Maranoa, who was chairman of directors of the Roma Farmer':' Milling Company, :hould have allowed that company to cease operations, because, if it were still in existence. tlw Roma farmers would be getting ls. a bushel more for whe'l.t than they were getting at the present time. It was a woll-lmown fact that the Roma farmers had sold their wheat for 43. 6d. per bud he!.

The CHAIR:::1iA~: Order ! That haa nothing to do with the amendment.

:'ll·. GRAYSON: 'The amendment was that the eli,, idcncl should be fixed at 4 per cent. The Ruma Fa~mers' :Milling Company was ·<t H'ted on purely co-c;perative lines, and the hon. men11)0.r for :r,1aranoa was chairman of. <li,rectors ·of that company. Strange to say, that company went into liquidation.

'l'hP CHAIRMAN : Order ! c\Ir. GRAYISOK: His contention was that

to pl£~ce an embargo on business men anu others who were just as anxious to start these co-operative concerns as tho farm~rs, was not the correct thing to do, because he could il~~tnnce cases where co-operative con1panies r·::d been sbrted on the Darling Downs where there would have been no hcpe of snch com­panif''3 getting sufficient capital to start had it not bcr·n for the "drv" shareholders subscrib­ing the capital. Those shareholders did not eYen claim to have rqnesentation on the board of director>J. It was very sPid-:-m tnat they claimed to have any sav in the dilec­toratr>. He was sp+'aking more particularly about the 'Varwirk .Farmers' Millirg Com­pany, und notwithstanding that'nerrrly one-third of the capital was held by "dry" : hareholdcrs IYho WQre not growers of whc<lt, the directors were all farmers and producus. He cont(n­d"''d that it \Vas a :rreat n1h-'it:tke for the Couunittee to plac,: an;.~ e:mhai f1 o on business nJ,;!l attd othr~rs who \Vrre iust as intc'rested in m;tablishing buttC'r i::wtorlcs and flour mills and cheese manufacturing co1npunies as the farmers themselves.

:Mr. GILLIES: Do you want a dividend of more than 4 per cent.

Mr. GRAYSON: He objected to it being restriC't<:'d to 4 per cent after the company had paid off its indebtedness to the Govern­ment.

Mr. B. H. CORSER opposed the amendment. It was a direct attack on the farmers. They had no right to fix the rate of dividend that the company should pay after they had paid off their indebtedness to the G0vernmfmt. It should be then left to the company to do \Yhat they liked with their money. '''hy should they tie the hands of the directors in any way? If the amendment were acoep­ted, it would prevent the establishment of many factoriPs, be<."ause it would be impossible for the farmers in the outlving districts to secure the support thev needed from the " dry" shareholders. If was all right for people to invest their money for fifteen years a,t 4 per cent .. but thev would not do it for all time. If they found" the company could pay 5 per cent., why should thcy not be allowed to pay it?

Mr. GILLIES: You are an advocate for the " dry " shareholders.

:'\1r. B. H. CORSER: He was not an advo­cate for the "dry" shareholders, but he saw the advantage of having " dry " shareholders in t.h\~ company in o!·der to egtablish a co­opcret!Ye f::dory. He understood that the law wue tha+, after a r'"'';pany had paid off it' obligations to the Ge:vernment, no one

Go-opemtive Agricultuml [3 DECEMBER.] Production Bill. 2417

eould dictate to them as to what dividends they should pay. Perhaps the legal gentle­men in tlw House would give them some information on that point. He understood, though, that there was a dc,·ision in law that it was impossible to tie the hands of direc­tors ':rho had rccci n_•d loan 1non~'v fro1n thC'­Go,•ernment after they had p~id off thPir indebtedness. The an~end111ent would onl:Y pn~Yr-:lt n1oney being raised tn start factoriu,, 'tnd lw 'gould yore ag:ai:nst ii

?.Ir. W _\LKEH hop ,d tlw 2\Iinister \vould uot ac,:opt the anlelK1nH;nt. lie recog:r:.is-'_ d !hat thev ,;honlcl Go careful about ti1e divi­dend" ui1til the company had p11id off its in­debtPclncss. but after that the directors should i.k alio\H~d a L·ee hand to pay v,hat dividend..; they ·,1islwd. If they wished to pay 6 per ,cent. divide!11l, they should he allowed to do >o. They would not be abk· to get " dry " "hareholders to inve't their money unless they g;we them some encouragement. .At the pre­sent time they had a co-operative hacon com­pany in Brisbane, and it was not as flourish­ing as it should be, because they had only got £~8,000 of the £60,000 wanted. He under­stood that the Bill applied to existing com­panies, and it was hoped to bring this bacon company under the operation oi the Bill. The company might pay off its indebtednPss t.) th-" Government iiJ a few years, so if they ·dl'cided that th0 "dry" shareholders should vnly g<'t 4 per cBnt. they would not be able to ruise the extn; monev. The shareholders of th2 bacon company li:ad also to be suppliers as '"'ll. He hoped the hon. member would \vithclraw the amendment. because it would h:J. YC a dis;.t~.trous effC>ct 30 far as raifing 1no\1ey for the baC'on C'Onlpan~,, \>"tH eonccrnPd.

:\ir. 1\,IORG.\N: If the h 'n. member for E +!":ha"!.n v :tn\P-fl to cripple thf-' u;;:e£ulnc·;-; of rl:c Bill, he eould not h,n·c don<' it more ·uccc>"fullv .than bv his amendment. It ,hnwc·d thJ,t the hon. memb:·r w;u not flcquaint:::·d with the running cf f'o~opera­tiYc con1panie'" in n8w districts. They knew that the hon. mmuber for l\lar.,nu[l. was an advoc;:te of the "dry" shareholders, because that hoi;. g·cntleintt;, rt1. /,;;ni'"''!'l t.hat it wa:: 1le~f·;;sarv to have "drv " shn.reholdeo·s in new clj~trj ~~ ThP ~mclldnl£'nt "'"-onld f_.rcYcnt " drv " «hare holden from coming in at all. He knn~ OW' compar,y in Queensl>md to-day­the· Darling Downs Co-o[JC'rative Company­\vhieh paid a divic!E'ncl of 6 per cent., and yet the "dry" shareholders in that company were willing to hand in their shares if they {'ould glct back the £1 per share "hieh they paid for them. Money w~s tightc·r to-clay th.J .. n it was so1ne years ago, and it would eo "t 7 per cent. or ~ per cent. to borrow money from a bank. \Vas rt not better to have" dry" shareholders than to have to pay that amount of intcr·,-,t? Thev should leave it to the discretion of the directors to pay what divi­dend wai necessary, without restricting it to 4 per cent. The " dry" shareholders were bene­factors to the farmers in new districts, but they would have to give them some en­couragernent to invest their money. Just lately. he (Mr. Morgan) had been collect­in;; monev to start a butter factorv in :Mar­burg. He had held meetings iri fourteen cliffE'rent localities, and it was as much as "he could do to get the farmers to take up "fiye sharC:'s each, the minimum nu1nber, and a few others took up from s6lven to ten chan·~ each. The result was that only 700 -or 800 shares wPre taken up by the legiti­~mat<' farmers. the men who "·crE' actually -earning their livin!l" on the land. They had

1914-7 I

to get 2,000 shares before they could ostab­lish a factory costing £4,000. In Miles they

had now a butter fautory which [7.30 p.m.] turned out 72 tons of butter dur-

ing its best month last year. The Darling Downs Co-operative Company in their articles of a»ociativn providul that a business man t·ould not take up ;hares un­lek.'-- he \Yns a laHdc\l,vner, and there were ,uflicicnt bu:cine~'" men in th,, district who \Yere la11downors, but were n0t suppliers of c.r1.·ahl--ha.Ying only a hor···R paddock Y1 hich th(·y 1FP·1 in tio11 with their business -tv t/·kc up b,dan{~_, <~f the shares, and ··n r.:·:n:~blc thexn t() f-~.T1n ._\ cornpany. The arti.c~c,, <_j u.ssol'iu6on p1vvidtd that 6 per c ·nt. dividend::; Eh" ulAl be p.rtiJ to the share­holdr·rs, and t!H' ·hareLolders had been get­i.~ng 6 pe.f cent. F,~t'r ,,inco tho curupany started. lie tuck up fifty f:.haros, \vhieh \VJ.s tho lin1it alkwed, and he might say th:.:t the moment tb., company was prepared to take hi·, ohares un•l pa> him what he paid for them he was prep<1n·d t,J let them have the shares, be­CRUoi"' he could do better with his money than le-ave it in a company which paid only 6 per c cnt. .'l. ptr --on could not btaTO\\ from a bank at 6 per cent. to-cla v, and it was not fai~ to limit the company· to a payment of a d1v1dend of 4 per cent. for all time. Personally, he was not in favour of the pro­vision that the majority of the shareholders should be suppli,·rs, but as most of the mem­ber.o on that side of the Hou''" approYcd of that proYision, and the i\Iini,tn' thought it

advisable to retain it in the clause, he did not pres,; his view of the matter. He knew the value of "dr)'"" shareholders, and did not wish to do anything "Ill hich would prevent them <te· oisting in thC' for•:~ation of a co­uper;,tivo company. The hon. mr-mber for E't~haw, if he knew more about ' uch dis­trirt._.. as h0 (11r. l\lorgan) und the hon. 1:<1e1nber fc)r :2.1ar111oa repn,-aented~ l\Tuulcl see th,:d it v:ns tunvise to oruss the u1nendn1ent and ''"'-- uld \vithdrt!w it~ '

;\lr. BEBBI"'GTO)J: He was going to vote' ab"ai:;-,; the amendment if it went to a. division. bccau."' the maHer with which it de~dt ,~,'a-, one for the articles of as.'\nciation, and not for provision in ; his Bill. The lll('Y"UlT before the Connaitiee si1nplv fixed thr· prinr·iples upon which mon"y should be advn.:ccccl bv th0 Trea,urer. The ,,hare­holders of the company would make the articles c-f a-,soriation, in which thev would deal with all :-,uch math r" as that ·referred to in the amendment. When a body of farmers formed a company, the State had no right h) lay down the conditions under which th;~t company should work aft0r they had paid off their obligations to the State. They should then ha,-e a free hand, and operate under the common law of the State, just the same as any other company. He knew of one company in which the articles of a"ociation provided that 1t dividend of 5 per cent. might be prdd if the finances of the company warranted it, and he knew of two companies in which the directors took very good care. that the state of the financc·B never did warrant the payment of sueh a dividend. They always paid so much for the raw produce that there wad nothing left with which to pa.y interest. At the same time he thought that a.ny man who put his money into a company was entitled to at least 5 per cent. interest.

::\fr. GILLIES: The hon. member for Murilla appeared to forget that if this Bill became law. the conditions would be very different from those which prevailed at the

Mr. Gi1lt"es.]

2418 Go-operative Agricultural [ASSEMBLY.] Production Bill.

time the hon. member was canvassing for shares. as it would not be necessary for private capitalists to come along and put do,vn so n1uch nloney.

l\Ir. ::\10RGAN: In the eompanv I referred to we found £3,000, and the Darling Downs Co-orwrativr <'·ompany found £2,000.

:\Jr. GILLIES: If it. \P.o ,o rlifficult to get bnnft fidc primary producers to ,ubscribe to the compan~- tho hon. member referred to, wh,- did .wt the hon. member support hiR !Lmcnd:lll nt, in which he pro]loscd that they should not imist upon all the share­holders being actual mppliers at the time of starting?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: It is an adYantage to have them in the company.

Mr. GILLIES: He knew it was. and should like e\·erv shareholder to be a supplier. but a•. that was not po:dible the next best thin0 the: could do was to limit the dividend; tha.t should be payablc, so that the c·ompany would not become a divi­dend company. A purely co-operativ;, con­'"'rn did not pay dividends, but paid all their money to the suppliers of cream and other products. Howcver, he proposed to test the consistencv of those han. members who prated FO much about private capital bGing nccessary for the establishment of these co-operative companies. \Vhen the Sugar \Vorks Bill was before the House they wer0 assured that farmers would have no difficulty in raising the money r0quired, and later on a provision was brought in to enable farmers to mortgage their land to private capitalists for the purpose of mising money. In a circular which he himself sent out, he made this statement to the busineo;s pPople of the town-

" The provisional directors would also a ppcal t) the business people of th0 dis trict to support the compeny by hking shares. While admitting th11t th" primary object of thP company is to secure the hi[ihest possible price for the products of the farmers. and not specially to pay dividends, they would poi~t out that the prosperity of th(J busmess people is largelv dependent on the prosperih- of thG far.mcr,, and upon the general advn.ncr>ment. of the district. In helping the farm<'rs. they arc there· fore helping them~elves.''

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Mr. GILLIES: Well, he would not con­

tinue the quotation. He was quite agree­able to let the matter go to a diYisiou.

Mr. FORSYTH: It was an extraordinary thing that members who professed that they wanted to assist farmers should propose an amendment fixing the interest payable on the money investcd in a co-operative companv at the low rate of 4 per cent. He believed "that the amendment was ultra vires. What on earth had the Government to do with the com­pany after the advances had been repaid? The company would then belong to the farmers, and surely thev were able to control their own business. ·Yct thev hacl members who were supposed to be the friends of farmers, deliberately blocking co-opemtion. and kil­ling a Bill which would be a great ad­vantage to thC' primary producers. \Vhere would any one get money now at 4 per cent.? \Vhy, then, should th<' company be limib'd to a 4 p01· cent. dividend after thcv had liquidated all their obligations to the Treasurer? \Vhile the company owed monev to the Gowrnmcnt, it wa" tho dut.v of the GuYermnent to rontrol it to a certain extent,

[Mr. flillies.

but once they had repaid all 'tho advancel'f obtained, the Government should have noth­ing whatever to do with the company, 11nd thev should be able to pay 5 or 10 per cent. if thev chose. A more silly and ridiculous amendment than that under consideration had nc1 er been brought before the Com­mittee. and he did not bP!ieve that the Go­vernment c:..uld leg,J.l!y ineert it in the Bill. The hon. member who proposed the amend­n1ent bdioYed in "dnc" shareholders help­ing thP fanners. At Cabooltur<', in his (Mr. Fors~·th'e) electorat0. they had one of tho finec,t butter factories in Queensland, and it was mrcg-nific,mtlv and cheaply managed. The busine<' people in the town put a little money into that company. and the highest rate they receivc·d was 6 per cent. They did not put their money into the company because they wanted the ,.hares, but because they wanted to help the district along. Such a proviBion as that contained in the amendment would kill any co-operative com­pany which required the assi:,.bnce of "dry" shareholders, and he hoped the amendment would be rejected.

Amendment (Jh. Gillies's) put and nega­tived.

Clause 3 put and passed. Clauses 4 and 5-" Report of valuer" and

"AdvanceB out of moneys appropriated annually "-put and passed.

On clause 6-" Limit of advance"-Mr. GILLIES moved that the wor•ds "one·

half,'' on line 37, be omitted with the view of inserting ''two-thirds." He submitted that the carr~1ing of the amendment would make the Bill of some usc to the farmers, and hon. membNs opposite, who pointed out that the " dry " shareholders were such 11n important factor, would have an opportunity of support­ing it, and obviate the need of the private capitalist.

Qnestion-That the words p~oposed to be omitted (Jir. (;illic.,'s anH nd.m !'nt on clauHr 6) stand pv,rt of the clause-put; and the Committee divided:-

hlr .• \!Ian , Appel , "\rcher ,, Barnes, G. P. ,, Behbing-ton , Bell

Booker ,. Bouchard , Bridges

Caine

An:s, 34. Mr. Grav-Son

" Gunll , Hodge

K'''""ll , Luke· , :Mackay ,, ~!organ ,, Paget

Lirut.-Col. Rankin1 Mr. Holwrh

,, Corser, D. H. , Somr:r.set ,, Cor:.Pr, F.. B. C. Stevens

Ct'1Wforc1 ,, Cribb " Denham

Forsyth !> Grn"nt

., Tolmi~ Trout

, Vowles White

Tellers: Mr. Bell ., "\Villiams

and Mr. Kessell.

Mr. Adamson Barber

, Bertram ,, Bowman

Coyne Fihelly Foley

, Gilday G-illies Hamilton Hunter Tellers: }fr.

NoEs, 22. Mr. Land

,. Larron1be Le-nnon Mav }!cCormack

, Murphy , 0' Sullivan n Payne , Ryan ,, Throdorf> ,. "\Vinstanley

Barber and Mr. Bertram. PAIRS.

Ayes-}Ir. W. H. Barnes and Mr. Petrie. Koes-}Ir. Huxham and Mr. Kirwan. RC'so!vcd in the affirrpative. Clause put and passed.

Co operatil'~ Agricultural [3 DECEMBER.) Production Bill, 2419

On clause 7-" Advances on existing· r·vorks H_

::Ylr. \YALKER drew the attention of tho Committee to the fact that advances to r·xist­ing \\•Jrks must be apnroved bv both Houses of Parliament. On ;cconnt ~f theil' being almo··t at the end of the present susion, he '"'ould hke to know from the Premier whethe~ he ha.d. an0· means of getting over the drfficulty wh!Ch thpy would have in con­nection with the ::'vlurarrie works ir they applied_for t;n advance, because they could not wan untrl the House sat again.

The PREMIER : He was rising to speak when tlw hon. member rose to draw atten­tio_n .to the fact that this clause applied to eXl:tlng- worko. He thought it _was quite ~e.•uablc that such a provision should be m the statutes, that no advance should be mt•de on worb alread"· eonstructed until approved by Parliament.' Concerns which it w~' undes_irable to acquire might other­"'·'s<; obtam advances. The cJausP was dutmvdy put in to meet the case of the ~urarrie works. He thought that probably 1t was the only concern which would take advantage of it. It 'Vas the onlv one of :vhich he had any knowledge, "and he mtencled to draw the Committee's attention to the matter. . He "anted, if possible, to come to the assrstance of Murarrie on the linb la~d down in the Bill. The factory h":cl not De~n erected long, and the conditions lard clown m clause 7 appeared to him to be s?fficiently stringent. It was quite impos­srble to get the valuation in time for the present session of Parliament· but that if a!~ the conditions of claus<; 4 \~ere complied wrth, and a recommendatwn, after full in­vestigation into the company's affairs, for an advance were made, he could undPrtake that next Sf''sion, if he was there a validating Bill would be brought in. '

Mr. MORGA;:.;: \Yhy not strike out the last two lines?

The PREMIER : He would not agree to that, because he would be unwilling that it should be of general 'Lpplieation. He troug-ht it would be a very undesirable power to place in the hands of "'"Y Minister that he should bo able to negotiate any advances on existing factories. He could cite ca;;e;; in which he was quite sure the management would be very glad, indeed, to make a transfer at half the value of the concern, what might be regarded as a bogus sale. So soon as the application of the Murarrie Factory came in, and all the con­ditions were complied with, an advance would be made, but it might be necessary to get it validated next session.

Clause put and passed.

Clause 8 put and passed.

On clause 9-" Advance to be deemed a loan"-

:i\ilr. HUNTER moved an amendment, on page 4, line 3, to omit the word " sixteen " with "' view to inserting "twenty-five." He did not intend to delay the Committee, be­cause they wanted to get on with business, and he thought they had made up their minds. He thought that sixteen years was not long er:ough for the repayment of these amount;; rt should be twenty-five years ,at the very least. The Treasurer allowed thirty years for the repayment of loans for water conservation, bores, and that sort of

thing, and the corrosion or the coll'Lpse of bore-casing was a greater risk than the depreciation of tho plant or buildings of a butter or cheese facton·. Those factories had to be kept up to late, and, of course all repairs and e'l:tensions had to come out of the rev.cnue or profits of the company. Ther~fo1e, therC> was not much fear of the plant ,depreciating to any Yery great extent.

The SECRETARY FOR AGIUCULTURE: He did not propoce to accept the a,mend­ment. A good deal of depreciation took pln.ce in wooden buildin!?'~ and machinery, and he ,cJid not think the compa.nies them­seh-e; woul<l wish the term to be longer than sixtc-'m ye>tre. J .. s a matter of fact, he had a list extending over tv'l o prrgt-'S of advan<-~~_:s marlc from the meat and dairy fund, and under th.(' head of "Aids to Manufacturers," and iu r.o c•1'e had an advance been made for more than sixteen yearc. And in every case the amount "as paid off either before or at the end of the term, and in no case had thev asked for extended time. Under these circumstances, he thought it was quite unnece,sary to acu£pt the amendment.

Mr. RYAN: Tho explanation of the Minis­ter with regard to wooden buildings and so on hardly squared with the length of time given undPr the Worker,' Dwellings Act,

which was twenty years, and [8 p.m.] under the Agricultural Bank Act,

too. They might give the farmers in the country as good terms as they gave tho workers in the town, and there­fore he hoped that 'orne compromise might be come to. Perhaps the Minister would accept a compromise of twenty years.

Thcc SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: No_

Question-That the word proposed to be omitted (}vir. Hunter's amendm1nt on clause 9) stand part of the clause-put; and the Committee divided:-

~Ir. Allan , Appel ,, Archer , Burnes, G. P. ,., Bebbington

Bell , Booker , Bouchard , Bridges , C;lrine

AYES, 34. l\lr. Hodge' , Kessell

Luke , Mt.tcartney , Morgan , Paget , Philp

Lieut.-Col. Rankin Mr. Roberts , Somerset

, Corser, E. B. C. Stevens Tolmie Trout

Crawford , Cribb ,, Denham , Forsyth , Grant , Grayson

, Vowl?f:l Walker White Williams

Tellers: Mr. G. P. Barnes and Mr. Vowles.

Mr. Adamson , Barber , Bowman , Coyne , Fihelly , Foley , Gilday , Gillies , Hamilton , Hunter ,. Land Tellers: Mr.

NoEs, 21. Mr. Larcombe

Lennon , May , McCormack

Murphy O'Sullivan Payne Ryan Theodore

,, WinstELnley

Adamson and Mr. Winstanley.

PAIRS.

Ayes-Mr. W. H. Barnes and Mr. Petrie. Noes-Mr. Huxham and Mr. Kirwan.

Resolved in the affirmative. •

Mr. Ryan.]

2420 Ag1·icultural Production Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Inglewood, Etc., RailwayB.

Mr. GILLIES moved to omit the word " two" on line 7 with the view of inserting the word "f1ve.'· The object of the amend­ment was to give the farmers five years breathing time before being called upon to commence repaying advances. The amend­ment should appeal to the' Minister and to the mcmb~rs of the corner party who claimed to know something about the needs of ~'"''lectors.

Mr. \VALKER hoped bhe Minister would .not accept the amendment, because two years was a very fair thing. The)' had to look &<t thooe matters broadly, and it was no usc electioneering even in passing a Bill of that description. Any man who had had any experience in the establishment of co­operative factories knew perfectly well that in,ido of twelve months they were on a very sound footing and inside of two years they had a credit balance, provided they had a boal·d of directors that knew anything about the busincc·•J. He could give two instances in his own electorate of that having been done, and the same applied to Maryborough. The Gympie company borrowed £1,200, and inside of twelve months they paid that amount off, and inside of the next twelve months they had a. credit balance, distinctly showing that they did not want the long terms provided under the Bill.

::Yir. GILLIE:! : That does not apply to a new district.

:Mr. WALKER: Gym pie was a new dis­trict, and where could thr·y get a better illus­tration than Caboolture. The Caboolture factory not only paid off the money they owed but they also got a credit bala.nce, and up to the pre;~ent tilile they had only called up half their capital. It ,,·as a very good thing to provide the very liberal terms given under the Bill, but if they extended those terms abuses would creep in, which would not do the farmers any good. What they wanted to do in all those little centres where they were establishing co-operative factories was to get them (;,tablished on busine,;s lines, and there was only one thing that would prevent them getting on a sound footing, that was a war. a.nd then they could make f'P""':ial provj-,l~ns. Undel' present circum~ stJnces two years w;;, more than a fair thing.

Mr. E. B. C. COHSER said th.ore was no n~ces··ity for the amendment, as from past experience they found the terms provided in the Bill were absolutely long enough. One butter factory in< Maryborough in which he was interested not only had been able to meet interest and redemption but had also been a.ble to provide a reserve of £5,000 or £6,000 .and since then the); had been able to establish two other branches and were now establishing a third, showing that there was no necessity to extend the liberal terms pro· vided under the Bill.

Mr. MORGAN said there was another reason why the amendment should not be accepted. The Committee had already pro­vided that the term of repayment should be sixteen years, and 5f they now provided that no repayments should be made until five years, instead of having fourteen repay­ments they would only have eleven, and the repa.yments would be much greater.

Amendment (Mr. Gillies's) put and negatived.

Clause put and passed. Clauses 10 to 12 put and passed.

[Mr. Gillies.

On clause 13-" Power to take land"­Mr. RYAN moved that after line 20 the

following words be inserted:-" Provided that any land and rights

taken or acquired under this subsection by the Minister shall, for all the title and interest so taken or acquired, be and remain v~'ted in the Crmvn, and the right of the comp.1ny shall bo deemed to be a license of user only."

The object of tho am::mdment was to prevent tho likelihood of a concern pa"·ing into pro­prietary hands. If the Crown reserved the whole title and interest in the land it was much more likely to re:nain a co-operative concern. There was no reason v1hy the amendmegt should be objected to. On the contrary, those who were in fayour of true co-operation would fayonr the amendment.

Mr. STEVI~NS (I/o,qwcul): If the amend­mcnL applied only to the lime that tho com­par,y \~as indebted to the Crm1 n, ho could underst.anJ it, but he failPd to se" why any co:npany should hamper their operations for all time itftor they had paid off their indebt­l'dncss to the Crown. He could not under" stand the leader of the Opposition mov-ing ::;nch ,:1!1 a1ncndment.

Question-That the word,, proposed to be insr,rtc,J (Jir. Ilyan's wmendment in c!nu,Yc 13) be so inserted-put: and the Committeo diYidod:-

AYES, 21. Mr. Adamson

~' Barber Bowman

, Coyne PihP!Iy

" Foh_,·y {~~l}_ay

., GllW-3 .. Hamilton

Huntt'r :. Land

Mr. Larcombe Lc>nnon

, May McCormack

" ~·~~~RiY:an Payne HV,'t:.L Th;;;oc1~n·t·

,. \Vinstunl(y

Tdler . .<: )!r. Gillies and cur. Larcom be. Not:s, 30.

ltir. .Ulan , Appel

Archer Bebllington Bell Bouduud Bridges C:till" Corser, E. B. C. Urawfon1 Cribb n(~nham Forsyth Grayson Hodge

Tellers: ll:r. Walker

Mr. Kessell , M flf<trtney ,, ~forgan , Pagtt .. Philp

Li• ut.-Col. Rankin 1.~-r. Ro1wrts

Somerse-t Stevens Tolmie Trout

.. Ymv~_es · Weclker

White ., \Villiamq

and Mr. Williams. PAIRS.

..:\yes-Mr. Huxham and Mr. Kinvan. ::<oes-Mr. W. H. Barnes and Mr. Petrie Reso!Ycd in th;; negative. Clauses 13 to 15-both inclusiYc-put and

passed< The House l'<'Bumed. The CHAIRMAN repor­

ted tho Bill without amendment, and the t!Jird ro.1ding was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

Il\'GLEWOOD TO TBXAS AND SILVER­SFCR RAILWAY-CLONCURRY TO :MOUNT CUTH:BlDRT RAILWAY.

'l'he SPEAKER announced the receipt of messages from the Legislative Council, intima.t­ing that they had approved of the plans, sections, and books of referenc<, of these rail­ways.

Elections Acts [3 DECEJHBER.] Am••ndment Bill. 2421

ELE!'TIO.:\"S ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

MESSAGE FROM Com:OIL.

Tho SPEAKER announce:d the receipt of a mose,1gc from the Legislati.-e Council r8-turning thi;:; Bill, with amendments :Uen­tionod, in which they in.-ited the eoncurronc" of the Legislative Assembly.

UoMJIHTTEE-CONSIDERATION OF CouNCIL's AMENDMENTS.

Tb H011E SECRETARY: Tho first amendment of tho Council was the insertion of the following now clause after clause 3 :-

" In mbsection lA of section 23 of the consolidated Acts, after the word ' dead ' the words 'or to have left the district o~· to be otho~·wise disqualified, as pro: nclecl by sections 33A and 33B of this Act,' are inserted."

Sub~ection (3) of section 33A road as fo.llows:-

" At the sittings of the lastmentioned court, the chairman of the court shall write th!'J word ' dead' against the name on the electoral roll of everv elector whose name appears in ouch list; and with re­spect to whom such entrv in the said list app(•,;rs to be correct;· thereupon the name of mch elector ~hall be' doomed to b0 rxpun;;cd from such roll."

J t '~a~ r1eeessary, in vicv/ of the fact that they had provis:led in the Bill that these uanws sLDuld be so marked, to amend the section ill th," principal Act. The Council's nc\v cla1L1t~ th)__\n further road-

,, The followiLg pro.-i,i,'m is acldeLl to the sni;1 ~ubsf,ction : -~-

~. Th"" LlP;ut sha]] r;.ot deal ''+! h an" list of_ Dt1I!lCS compikcl and publirdl8d by the cllnc!ron of dw October bi-mDnthly court plE''•<ld,nt !o the provisions of section 33B of this Act., but all names contained in su('h list shall be cknlt with bv the IJcb,mlJ,"r bi-r,wnthly court, and all such llllmc·s ~hnl! be O'"it-tcd from the annual roll upon that C<)Ul't being sati1'Sfi0d tt 1t the p:Jrt.ic'-,llal·s of di.s'Jlhtlific;~ti:-Jn arc correct.',

Then ''Pction 33B read as follows :-" [33-a] 1. Ewrv bi-monthlv rcaistration

court shall also 'be a revision ~ourt for the purpose of erasing from the roll thA names of all persons who have become disqualified by ceasing to reside within the dishict for two months or upwards, or are found for anv other cause not to be qualified." •

The object of the amendment was this: Electors might have been marked as "left" when the October bi-monthly court was held and it Wc•S consider<'d possible that thei: namvs might be dealt with at the November annual revisi·m court. But as only one month had elapsed b0tween the two courts they could not be dealt with at that court: 'rhe amf·tH!ment made it absolutely clear that the nam•'o dealt with at the October court c-ould be dc•alt with onl:v at the December re­vision c•mrt held two months after.

Mr. KI?W,\K: That means that the annual roll 1.vil1 h:? out ] ater than usual.

The HG:IIE SECRE'l'.\.RY: ThJ.c was quite possibL•. He moved thai the ame,dmc>nt be agrGed to.

~Ir. RYAX: The nc·''•"'''it:v for inserting this amcnclment "·as conclusiyc evidence of the ab urdity of the whole Bill. It wa" quite

appar;ent now that there wa·• an overlapping between tho old provisinn and that

[8.30 p.m.] conb>ined in the Bill. The Homf' 8ecretary sa;d the electoral

cfii~_.:r~ \'t,'rTo c·cL1:inu3.11y nifting a:nd sifting. He 1::\Ir. Ryan) w<r• convinrc•d that it was nc<·-•·--sury fer thc•m to keep sifting_. because the,·e wero plenty of things to be s1fted. At Rockh;nnpton the other clay, forty names were t''l.dudecl from the roll because a corti­fica h "'n; not :cttanhcd to the claim forms. ':J.1hc IIor.:1e S':cretary blan1ed th0 electoral oflic('l' fc•r not carryillg out instructions; but after all the _-\.ct remained, and if an election took pla•:c at an early date those fmty pPr­sons would be deprived of the opportunity of Cl!sting· their voteo. The provi,;ion under consideration should apply to all monthly courte, and not to the October bi-monthly court only, and he hoped the Jl..1inister would accept a compromise in that direction. If there was any dissension among member,, opposite he would advise tho GovPrnment to go to the country as ~oon as possible.

l\Ir. THEODORE : There was no doubt that the amendment showed the weakness in the Bill-showed in fact that tho whole measure was a gerrymandering piece of legi8lation brought in to assist one party. It was hastily conceived, hastily drafted. and ha,tily pn:,sed through that Chamber. The original Bill, without the amf'ndment, wa' an absurdity, and with the amendment it wa;, still an absurdity. under the original Bill. names colkct:Jd by police can.-asscr' in Augu .-t "oulcl bG submitted to the Tevicion c,,mrt held in }';' m <'mbcr, and names collected by an eh ctoral r<'gistrar early in August would b,o submitted to a rc,·ision court hdd in October. That was an anomaly, and the am,,·ndmPnt propo•ed to r:n:edy it. but it onl} Ill'~ hotchpo"+rh of. th~ lq:dr;lation. Ih w v. ;,;, anycrr· going to und:•ri<tancl the ebctN'ai law with dl these amendments making omissions and interpolations in the .\ct? The pr: \"isions clca ling with the bi­n1onthly courh, wt:re to be rPad in conjunc­tion with section 23 of tho Consolidating .\ct., v, hich de:1lt with the annual rr•Yision

cu:!:::. The v;h,-lt_· th:ing ,.ras Dn ab3urdity, a.;.J 1.Y& i-::\tz·nc2·L·cd fur purely clectiohe\~ring purpP::~\3. There no de:sirP to havt' pure roll':) f';: :_: i v e prnp(i' faciliti('.~ for getting on the rc~11. Th.,, sole desire was to nl[Lke it in­convenient for persons who might vote against the Liberal parh to get on the roll, and to make it easy to strike names off the roll, and the amendment was calculated to further that. He honed the amE'nclment would be rejedecl, but" whether accepted or rejected the Bill would still be an absurdity and a paradox.

Question-That the Council's amendment tu insert a new clause to follow clause 3 be agreed to-put; and the Committee divi­ded:-

AYES, 30. Mr. Allan

Appel , Ardter

Bar.aes, G. P. Bebbington Bell Book' r

, Bridges , Caim~

Corser, E. B. C. Cra,dorcl Cril:b D(•nham Fo1oyth

~Ir. Grayson , Kessell

Luke , }!organ , Patic-t ,. Philp

Lieut.~Col. l~t.n1,in Mr. Roberts

... f'omcr~et Stevens

, Tob1ie ,. Tr,..~ut

Yowles WhitP

, Grant ,. \VilliT!iffid Tellers: Mr. Aroher and }fr. Gunt.

llh. Theodore.l

2422 Elections Acts LASSElVIBL Y. J Amend-ment Bill.

Mr. }t.dnmson Barber Bowman

, Coyne , Fihclly , Foley .. Gilday ,, Gilli1-s

Hunt('r

NoEs, 20. }ir. Larcombe.

Le-nnon ::Uav :Jic.Lormack

, Murphy O'Sullivan

,, Payne ,, Ry<tn

Theodore , Land

'J.lellers: .. Wimtanlry

:i\Ir. Fihelly and ~Ir. McCormack.

PAIRS. Ayrs-:lfr. W. H. Barnes and Mr. Petrie. 1\oc~-J\Ir. Huxham and Mr. Kirwan. Resolved in the affirmative. The HOl'IIE SECRETARY: The next

amendment \Vn> in clause 9, in which the Council had deleted the words-

" The Go1ernor in Council may, hy Order in Council, direct that."

As tlw Bill went to the Council it was pro­vided that the Governor in Council might direct that thn compulsory enrolment clau,es should be pm into force. When the Bill was before the Commiti:oc he mentioned that that proYisiDn was taken from the Common­wealth electoral law, and he was prepared then to accept the amendment, or to move it. The amendment, of course, made it compulsory to enforce the compulsory enrol­ment clauses of the Bill.

Mr. MURPHY: What about the compulsory voting?

The I-IOME SECRETARY: That fol­lowed. He moyed that the Council's am~nd­ment on line,, 6 and 7, and also the con­sequential amendnwnts, on lines 22 and 27, be agreed to.

Question put and passed.

Th, H0:\1E SECRETc\RY moved that tht: ComrnittPP agre-e ;,;-ith the Council'3 amenrlm•,nt of dause 15, former!~· clause 14. In subclause (3) the Council had inserted the words "without unfolding the ballot-paper." The subclause prDvidcd that if a protested vote was allowed, the rc',urning officer should Dpen the envelone and insert the alioxed vot." in th,• ballot-:""'· The Council's · amPndmf'nt proYiclcd that b• s:wulrl dn so withon: unfoldinp: th0 ballot-J·ll)1C'l'. It "as a vr,ry re8son~~bh• and proper a1nPndn1ent.

(l,,.,,tion put and pass<'d.

The H0::\1E SECRETARY: The next amendment wns in clause 18, formerly 17, to subclause (4), of which tlw Council had added the following paragraph:-

•' The returning officer shall decide whethf'r such rPason is a valid and suffi­cient excm"o for such failure to Yote, and shall write his decision on the said notice.''

'I'he obj0ct of the Council apparent!,· was that the returning- officer, bcing possibly a local man, was in the bc>t position to judge as to the Yaliditv of the 0xcuse for not Yoting. If he wa~ satisfied that tlw excuse was reasonable, he noted it upon the form, which was forwarded to the Principal Elec­toral Registrar within two months. By acloptinrr this amendment they would be saving- the Principal Electoral R•·gistrar a comid0•·ablc amount of trouble-by placing upon the, offic,or who was in the best position to jud!;'e the duty of deciding whether the excnse was valid and suffi~ient. He did not sec any objection to the amendment; in fact, he thought it was a 'cry good amendment.

:!\lr. RYAN: \Vould von indicate what you consider a good and ,:uffi.cie11t reason? ' [Hon. J, G. Appel.

Tho HOME SECRETARY: 'I'hat de­P< c:ded upon circumstances. It wa.s a mapte:r: for tlw judgment of tho rotur_nmg officer and the Principal Electoral Registrar.

::Y1r. RYAN: He was opposed to phe amendment. It seemed to him a :rery d.tffi­cult thing-in fact, an almDst Imi;ossible thing-to ascertain what was a. vahd and sufficient reason why a person fa~led to vo.te . Thc·.Y should lay clown some ba~I~ on which thev could arrive at some demswn on the point. He would like the HDr-.:e Secretary to giYe an illustration of a vahd ~nd suffi­cient reason. Suppose a person obJected to both c;mclidates, and _felt that h!' was not sufficiently int;•rested m t~e electron, would thai; be a valid and sufficient reason?

The HonE SECRETARY: I do not think so.

~ lr. RYA=": In the hands of some rr,turn­ing offi~or it migh~ be. n might be that a candidato supportmg the Go•·crnment and one cuppurting the alleged crmntry party were stnnding, and that thci:e was no. Labour c1ndiclatc, and he could q~1te conceive that a majority of the elector>' .I!I that ek0t_o~ate would think it wa, a va!rd and sufficient rca'on for not voting. (Laughter.) There ,,-as a gr~at difficulty from tho struct!JrO of the clam<c to arrive at what was a vahd and suflicicnt reason for net going to the poll. He could not think of anv such rercson unless it were, the imposoibility of getting to the pull.

The PRE1IIER : It might be sidmE''S, or fire, or rdigious oom·iction' could be urged.

Mr. RY \::'\: He \nis '•ati·sfted that i~ this provieion came befm·!' the . court for mter­prPbtion it would be Impt,c,srble for the court to lav 'lown any cl'efinite rule that ''Jul~.be fo!lmvecl by a rciurnin;? offir<?r. Tho pG,,Itwn ,, '" absurd, and they now pi!Pd on to It t~c ,ulditional ;; b"urdity that seventy-two dif­ferent returning offiecrs might h_.n-• what thcv c\ln;,id0r0tl f.uffiei(lnt und vahd reasons in tlwir mir;;l, aml if tlwy said the reason o·iyr-n wn" not a g'ood 0llP that 'vould be the ~• .. cl of it. ,\ Lib: raJ returning offk1·r might thirk it \\ ["<·>: u frrulty rt"r·On if a man ca1110

aLe! blcl him thnl hP would only .-ote '· Labour" and clicl not feel inclined to giye hi.: vote 'to Pithcr of the candidates .• tancl­inf-4'· lie waR quit·-· sati·,fird that h~n. nl_em­berR C;ppositc had had a long and ;,crimonious di~,CU'---!on in th0ir cil.u--us a·\ t--> 'vhat 'vould be a y:1lid and :- \l1Iic1ent rcn · .Jn for not ,·otiJ,g. It seet•ted to him th;;~ it .would be iinpoHsible to cnfor\'e any pro~ecut1on und~r ih~ Bill if a pcrcon did uot v.Jte. and this additional abqnclity hnd been superadded bv tlw Council. He would like to 'e~ sub­stituted in phcc of the Council's amcnclmPnt the 'lnwtls "the following- r<·a,on shall be decmr ,j valid and mfficiPnt," and the reasons ect out.

The Ho~IE SECRETARY: You would want 11

good man:; sheets of paper if you :;et them all forth.

Mr. IlYAN: You could hav' the re:1som set forth in a schedule to the Bill. 'l'he Council's mnondm,,d wac, placing a respon­~~~bilitv on a returning offic;;•r which was ultogc:ther tww:arantable. He sa'l the pro,cpoct of a whole host of costs being heaped UJ) under this pro-r;ision. There ,.,vcre some nP<'dv lawvers, who "oulcl have per,ons referi·ing t~ them fer adYioo as to what would be a ~·ood and sufficil'nt reason. It would tak0 a Philadelphia lawyer to advise an

Elections Acts [3 DECEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 2423

·dector as to what would be a valid and suffirient rea,on for not casting his yote. He hoped the amendment would be pres8ed.

Mr. BARBER: \Vhy should the Home Secretary try to place the re!'ponsibility on .the· Cornmitt .. e of ac:cpting something from another pb.cc which w:~.s liable to be con­strued in a thousand and one different ways .at election time? He die\ not wonder at tho legal fratemity being able to ~"e mountains of cmts looming up in the distance. a•· the ordinary layman could anticipate a thousand and one rase, where trouble would arise. He saw nothing in the Bill prc.yiding· for a com­puhory holiday on election day. There would be hundreds of men engaged in Yarious .aYocations who y,ould probably b.• unable to get to the poll before it closed. lie could understand men engaged in the sugar dis­tricts, or in Morc.ton Bay, Keppel Bay, and other ports tran;,hipping cargo being pre­vented from g< tting to the poll.

The HO}IE SECRETARY: :\o. The beauty js that the postal vote comes in there. They would be able to vote by post.

::Ur. DARBER: He had never recognised the beauty of tho po,tal vote. but he had seen the iniquity of it. Where would the postal vote come in here? If he left for his work at 6 in the HJOrning, or at 12 o'clock the pr•3vious night, and \Vent do\rn the bay to help to dis­-charge cargo, he would not be able to exer­d'e the right of Yoting by post. He might be told the night before the election that he

ns re~uired in the rnorning to go do1Yn the ba:.-: lh' Inight b(: thirty~.· ix hour1S working :the .. ,,,,,e) out, and he would have no chance

of going to the registrar's office [9 p.m.] to make applicrrtion for a postal

Yotc. It was ab"'Jlute bunkum to imert a provision of that <'haraoter in the Bill at e.il, ;end it was infiniteh- w.orfi\e for the Home Secret.ary to accept it. Then, in the .en·nt of a person tra Yelling " long distance by tr,1.in, \VhL·n lH' got tD a certain place to vote, .the poll might have closed-would that be trdten as a v:-.d}\1 Bxcuso for not voting? \Yhat one returnine; officer would consi·der a .,.,,lid cx.:use might be turned do·.;-n by the retur-ning· officur in the next electorate. The whole thing was iniquitous, and would be very prolific in the production of unparlia­nJentary and bad language. To nsk tho :Committee to accept the amendment was •OYPr the limit.

::.Vir. COY-~E: Unlortur>lte1y, a lot Df tlu~ }{~gi:·dation \YHl 1nade b~T poo)lP \\ ho c-ould only sec a,,, Ln~ as the boundaries of the city .of Brisbane. \Vhilc the amendment was, no .doubt, imr•rtcd with the very best intentions, ic w.1s evid,·nt that in a distrid such as his O\Vn, wher,n the returning officer v J.S 600 or 700 n1ile'" a\Ya) frmn ,qJilJC of :,he elPctors, it would be absolutely impos·ihle for him Jrom his own knowledge to certify •,chether the excu,.:c \vas .a alid or l'f<'-"-o..:lablc un{: or uot. Tho elcc7m· would ,, nd in a form giYing his rca ·"Dns for not voting, and tho returuing offic•~r \\ould havr- to accr:pt the ex rouse, ;vlH thor it \vas right or \Vl'01Hf. It 'Should be the ·dut:- of the returning dcrcPr to 1nake somo i:nq~1irie-; on his o~.u1 a('eJunt into c,y0 ry case wh·:re pcnple failed to vote. an<l. in ordu to pro,-i,L· for that, he moved that after the word " shall," on line 28, there Le in<•rted the "\\'OY'

1"- ".'·fter n1nking

all reasonable inquiries." That was a Yery rea<•onable amemlmPnt, "nd hn hoped the Home Secretary \You1d accept it.

Mr. McCORMACK said he was against the whole thing, and it only showed the foolishness of making voting compulsory. P<'rsonally, he was opposed to compulsory voting, as he did not think the Committee had any right to dictate to the eleutors as to whether they should vot,J or not. The only li a2, to n1ake "\O~ ing co1npulsory would be to CC' l<;JC) <:V('l'.) ac!ult peroon on the e)ec­tora) 1ulls to go to the polling-booth or to ''ccu,c a poetal votin;;-paper, and then, if tlw~,- d('hircd to uw!1r> their votes inforn1.al, thcv could cro'<'> out the n>Llltcl of all the can:did{ttes. It appear(•] to him the amend­ment was a Yl'ry good illu,tration as to how the Government was being run by the "Brisbane Courier." The "Brisbane Courier'' had a·dvocated that very thing.

The CHAIRMA:\1 : Order ~ There is an amendment bdorc the Committee.

Mr. McCORMACK : Surely he could speak against the motion as well a6 against the amendment! Burelv he was in order in speaking on compulsory voting ! The " Courier " instructed the Government to put that amendment in the Bill, and i~ was like the cheek of another place to msert an amendment in a Bill which had for its object the election of members to the Legis­lative Assembly. It ,,as no busint>'S of theirs at all. H~ "J.s agninst returning officers haYing ali.) such power as this. .To show the difference of opinion of returnmg ofli··ers, th!.'y had an ele~tion fiyc years ago in thE' Townsville electorate, where the re­turninG' officer threw out a number of ballot­papers"becttuse they were not printed. They "''re i;•ued by the pre'>iding officer, and the Yoting w9.s thoroughly correct, yet they were thrown out b0 Mr. Parkinson, probably be­cause thev were Labour YOtF;. In other clectornt<; the ''amc kind of ballot-paper was accepted. Cons1'quently that ~howed that no tv, o returning officor, had the same opinion. Yet hero the;: were ~tsked to give an opinion as to what was a bona fide reason why a person did not vote. How was the rctlnnil:tr off:ePr in Charlc\Tillo to kno'v why Jack J one'> on the border of South Aus­tralia, did r{ot Yote? How was he to know j he reason giyen was a valid one? \Vhat wouid the Home Secretar~ Ray to a voter who , cid he objceted to vote for any can­ditlate. and the returning officer had held it

,h 1Jnt <> sufiidt•nt roa;·,on and he was fined? Did he think hc wonld submit to the fine without go ins to ,·1 higher court? And would that higher court uphold the decision? He did not think anv court would hold that a man could be finecf for refusing to vote for an: particnlar candid?te. The Liberal party ihoughl that th0y were bluffing n~m­bers of their fo llov·0rs to belieYe that Yotmg was r<Jm)mlsory when it as not compulsory at ·all. Just becaUS() a number of electors did not vot'~ at the last election, and be­cause the Liberals thought they were all Liberal votec. thev wanted to bluff them into belim-ing thu.f yoting was comnulsory. Th0re ,.,or•· anv amrunt of electors who ''·OU]d .~tay awav from the poll if they tlwught. that neither of the candidates was suitable. and no court in Queon•l:md would cmH·ict them for committing such an offence under this Act. The leader of tho Opposi­ti0n t0ld them that it would be almost im­po<sible t.o com-ict a per·,on for not voting.

Amendment (Jir. ('n!!nr.'s) agreed to.

Original question stated.

Mr. L11c0ormack.]

2424 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Mr. PAYNE: It was a ridiculous thing, and an unfair thing, to place the respon­sibility on any returning officer to say whether the reason was a valid one or not why an elector did not record his vote. Was the returning officer's verdict final?

The HOME SECRETARY: No; the papers go to the Chief Electoral Registrar.

Mr. P AY:NE: Different returning officers decided these things in different ways. Ther& was as much difference between the opinions of returning officers on electoral matters as there was between day and night. 'There should be &orne definite reason laid down in the Bill that would be accepted as a valid reason. It was a monstrous thing to give the returning officer the power of say­ing whether a man should be fined £2 or not. The Home Secretary said that this was where the postal Yote would come in, but he must be deplorably ignorant of the conditions where nomadic workers were cun­cerned. Three days before an election they might think they would be near a polling­booth on election day, and yet when polling­day came round they might be sent 40 or 50 miks out to the backblocks of a station, ,,o that they would not have an opportunity of rPcording th~ir votes. How could thev use the postal vote then 1 One returning· officer might say it was a valid reason if the man had to walk 10 miles and it wa~. raining; and another returning offic~~r 1night say it wa . ..: not a valid rea:wn. He did not trust the Government on this Bill at all. He reallv believed that they were trying to deprive- the nomadic workers of their votes. The Goyernment, in acqept­ing this propoEal, were making themseh'es the laughing stock of the whole community of the Commonwealth.

:vir. 'l'HEODORE: There w~s no doubt that the amendment was an absolute absurdity. Many of the Tcturning officers in the country ·were police magistrates, wardens, and other judicial officers. lJnder the amend­ment thcv would be called upon as returning officer,, to decide wheth'.'" a reason for not voting "'lncs valid and :YUillcient, and a few \Veeks aft,_r\;'ards they \vould, acting in their jud',~ial capacity, have to decide whether the !lh':on giying that reason should be fined or not. That was simply burlc~quing our system of dealing out justi~e.

The I-Io:..IE SECRETARY: The returning officer will note his opinion on the form and then send it to the Principal Electoral Registrar, who will decide whether a summons should be issued against the elector.

Mr. THEODORE: \Ylwn a summons v;as issued the police magistrate, who acted as presiding officer in the fir .• t instance and pre­judged the case, would have to adjudicate on tho matter. It was a scandalous thing that a police magistrate should be placed in th£tt position, and, as he had aln:ady .'ftid, police magistrates ;;ere generally appointed returning officers in country districts.

The Ho:o!ll SECRETARY : V cry seldom.

Mr. THEODORE : If the hon. gentleman pcr.,isted in that statement he would give him the list of returning olficers in country districts, which would show that they were invt1riably police 1nagistratc}~ or wardens. But there was another absurdity about tho propo:ml. When the returning officer had endorsed his opinion on the form as to

[.i!!r. Pay1;r.

whether the rea,on given was valid and sufficient or not, the matter had then .to go­before the Principal Electoral Registrar. \Vas that officer to be influenced in every case by th<J opinion of the returning officer!

The HOolE SECRET,\RY : It will guide him,. at any rate.

Mr. THEODORE: Then, ~e need not follow the opinion of I he roturnmg officer?

The HolliE SECRETARY: He will see thO" excuse given by the elector ~mel the endorse­ment on the back, and he will know whether the excuse is a valid one or not.

Mr. THEODORE: The Principal Electoral Registrar might accept the opinion of the returning officer, but he might have twe':ty different batches of reasons to deal With 11nd twenty different standards for valid and sufficient excme" might be set up l;Y those­returning officers. \Vhat wa~ the registrar. to do in that case 1 Surely that was placmg, the Principal Electoral Registrar in a false position! It would be far better to have one man decidino' the matter than to have several individuals dealing with it separately and expressing different opinioM. If the_y '!llet in conference and laid down some prmmpht by which they should judge of the sufficiency or otherwise of an excusr-, that would be­right enoi.1gh, but if they acted separately and set up different 'tandards, that would only h'ad to confusion. If the Elcct,Jnd H.cgistrar Jisrcgarded mL~ny of the endorsP­ments made bv the returning officer he would· possibly lav himself open to severe censure by members of Parliamcn~ and by _the Minister himself. The clause was sufficwnt without the amendnwnt, and he hoped the alll''ndment "\Yould be di~agreed to.

:'.lr. LEN~\"ON: The .:Ylini.,ter stated by _an interj<dion that it was not. uoual for pollee, 'nagi,Jrates to net as returning officers. He (:Mr. Lennon) believed that in the No~·th and West of Queensland at the presen~ tune th& police magistrate acted as returnmg officer in every uJ."e and the hon. gentleman, as head of the Electoral Department .. must be aware of that fact; but in his usual reckless manner he stait'd that it ''as very unusual for police magistrates to art in that capacity. It was a very unfair thing to put ~~l?~n the Joe"! returning officeJ." fhe rcspons_Ibihty of deciding what was a valid or invahd excuse, ac1d then, after his opinion had passe~ thO" ;.erutinv of thn Principal Elemoral Reg1st~·ar -who 'was to decide wh<<ther a prosecutiOn shonld take place or not-to send the matter he;.,~', and have the c"n adjudicatt!d upon with tho returning offi<·or as judge. The whole thino- was ridiculous and ought to bs '' irwcl out."' It was a most rPmarln,ble thin!; that the amendment came from another olw.."i'"· where th<>v -~,\ ,_.1) n,J( conccl'nC'd about vcd:es at all. To put the matter as mildly as he f'ould~ thero was Kt great want of pro­nricty in the members of the other Chamber ~ugg;•sting means by which peGple sh?~1ld be )Wn ,!i,;u] to the (•dent of £2 for fmlmg to, record tlkir votes. :Many of tho members

of the other Chamber were there [9.cJ) p.m.l in spit" of vo~c,-·they W?rc there

after thcv had b~en reJected at the pails. The whoie thing was ridiculous, and it was manifcstlv unfair to make the, l~ccd r·olice magi:otrate-who Wi\S geneFa_lly the l'l_·f·urning ofiirer-first pass an Of!ITIIC?n· up.•n a case and then Jatpr on place hm1 In ihe po.•ition of judge. It would aho throw

Elections Acts [3 DECEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 242-t..

an enormous amount of additional work on the Pt:irwipal Electoral Registrar, and would neces,ttate the employment of two or three more clerks. No doubt, the amendment would enable the Home Secretary to achieve his object of disfranchising large numbers of electors and penalising them in every way and that would satisfy him. '

:Mr. FOLEY (llfundingburra): The amend· ment _certainly was not an improvement to the Btl]. It would place altogether too much power _n~ the hands of t_he returning officers m demdmg what constituted a valid and sufficient excuse. \Vhen spectking on the second reading, he pointed out that there were certain religious sects, such as the Seventh Day Adventists !lnd. Christadelphians, ~vho had consmentwus obJectwns to taking part m such worldly matters a.'> the election of me"!'be_rs of Parliament. 'Their thoughts and asptrattons "ere centred on the next world and t~ey would certainly c.msider it a hard~ shtp tf · they wore to be penalised becau;;\l t!te,- cbd not vote. A magistrate might con­;mler that their consci·.·ntious objections did not con_stttute a vahd and sufhciont excuse. It was a dangcrt?us power to put in the hands of reiurnmg officers, scarcely two of whom held the s:unc opinion with r~gard to electoral maUc'rs. At tho election hdore last the re­tur~'Ing offi~er in his electorate, who WdS 1hc p»l}ce n1ag1stratf', refused to accept certain baliot p.:tpers from Ayr, because thev were not on _the rcgulatton printed forms.~ lie :nad Hc:;:,-Jrc1ecl to sont:l a \1ufficicnt n.un1bor of ballot­p.tp•'rs to Ayr, and \Vht:'n the printed forn1s ran out, the pN diding oHkcr \\Tote tho nan::Ps of t!te candid•1k:: on. slips of pa]1er, and the bt:-~~\.o.ts recorded th(ln· vote::; on thos2 p:opPrs. ·y"~t tho returning offitf'.::: rcfuser1· to- u~.>~E·pt fn(""'e £orn1s. although it \VLLS lw \\ ho \Y;J;; re­sponsibli· fot tho. ·•hort:~Ke. of ballot-papers. At the sam!.' tnnc. s1m1lar ballot-papers fr~m .\yr ''ere accepted by the returning o~tce" of Hcrb:•rr and Charters Towers. ~no Homo Sccrdar:y had not given any jus­ttficatton for act'<·ptmg tho amendment, and lw. ";;:c•:.1ld like ~-o hear tho Pre::.nier c-xpre:,.s his np1n1on on the :,ubj\--ct.

· :\Ir. D~~RBER Surely the Home Secre­tary \Yas not f"oing to accept this abgurd nnwndmt·nt ~ I-Io: "'':ondercd '\\ hrthcr thD han. gentlernan's colleagues ha:1 rl'ad the rr.n1mH1-mont ~or,;fl1!1y and grasped what it m<>ant to a 1•x;;' cro\vd of \Vorkcrs such as cane­cnttPrfl, ~lh'a.rers, raihva~.,. men, and -wharf lumperP, whoso occupation frequently took them al' ~y from home, and rlenriwd thrm of tl;,o opportunity of recording their votPs. 'I !W B1ll was absurd enough beforP that amendment was embodic.·d in it. It made it :dmoet impoosiblc for thou,at;ds of people to get on the roll; it made provision for fining ~hem., If they '""'!'" not on the roll; although 1t fah '"1 to prov1dr a compulsory holidaY to enable r-wple to get to th,_· noll or to eci.npel their cn.::plo:;ers to givu thPffi sufficient time to vote, if tho;,' did not vote aml their reason 1vas not c-onsickrecl su.fl:icient, they were to be -9lnn:mon~rl; R011lG of tbem might lose. a dav or tv. o r1ay'' work over the case. and it miqht coc;t th£>m £5 betw0en tlw fino, loss of ti;ne, >~ncl kg-a] •cxpoaqcs. SurPlv the Home SQcro­tary did not nnder·.tand · thn dfect of tho awe··lr1t:wnt! He wondered whether anv of the hon. n1c_;mb0r's colle3;:ur;.; knt'v v-~hitt it mc:i•nt. He muld not undcr>ilmd how anv l'atir:nal individual c:ould support such an a1nendnl"'11t, whieh \.Yas ~:crtainh ... the worst thing i:> the Bill. Hon. mc>mbers in another place sho-\vcd ab:;oiutPly no syn1pathy, no

mercy at all, for those who had to travel a considerable distance to vote, and altogether· failed to appreciate the position of thousands. of nomadic workers and other worker;" on election tlay. 'The whole thing was an out­rage, an atro:"ity, an iniquitou" propo"al, and' he was makmg these remarks to sho\\ the people outside •vhat the Governme!tt were capable of doing. Not satisfied with dis­franchising them and then fining them for not being· on the roll, they proceeded to he:ap indignities on the heads of thousanch: of workers in the bush, on the railway works, workers in connection with shipping, and workers in the canefields. He uttered his emphatic protest again't including such a provision in the Bill.

Mr. 'THEODORE: He could not allow the clause to go through without exhausting· his time under the ;)tanding Orders be­rausc the a1nendrnent \Vas n1aking .ar{ evil Bill worco-and th;,t was saying a good deal. 'I'hc Bill was bad enough in all con­>Wicnce when it left that Ch>1mber, and to, insert any more evil principles should be· the:: last straw, but, unfortunately, there were members on tho other side who were pre­pared to swallow any ju,tification cf the political necessities of an almost defunct party. It had been stated-and he thought that tho ame>ndment bore out the statement­that til'· Bill wn a sop l•J certain Lib,_,ral momb:·rs wh'J felt that they \Yerc in a par­lous c-·mdition in their elcchrates. The Home Secretary should at least stand up· and agrPe that the arguments ag,,tin::>t the amcndn1cnt \Ve-re patent to hi1n. He \, ;d­dr~ntly w.:ts under the hnpression at fir_jt that the de~ieion of the returning· officer, end or ""d on the bacl;: of the form. \vould be accept•;d by the Prin< ipal EJ.eta"ral Regis­trar.

Tht:> IIo•:;: SECRU.mY: Xc•t ncce>',arilv. It \vill cvrtainl~,' be a guide to hitn. .,

:Mr. THEODORE: Where wa> the neces­sity f01" a guide in the matter? \\'auld he not be guided by the 'tandards he eotab­lishecl? It could not be said that the re-· turning c-fficer \Va-',' any better jud~re of the ,-alidity of an excu e for not voting- than the Principal Elector~] Registrar. Take for instai1ce, the Chillagoe electorato. ' 'l'he· wurdPn ·,v,:;s the rcturuing ufficrr: and :if a man did not vote in JSc·me remote place, would the Principal Electoral Ofii:.·er not be just as c.>mpetent to judge wheth0r his ex­cuse was valid as the returning officer? It wa' only a quection of adopting some· staMiarcl. and that must be done bv tho mttn himself, ·because the Bill '''tabliiht·d none at all. In that C-1·se, it would be far better to haYe one '>tandard than seventv-two sbmclo.rds. Further than that, hundred:~ of men might be charged with not having re­corded their votes cutd be in the happy posi­ticn of kl><>wing that their case;; had been judged by the man presiding o\·er tho court, when he had becen acting as returninrr officer, in the first in,tance. o

Thfl bell imlicated that portion of the hon. member'." time h::,d expired.

::\Jr. RYAN: He hoped the Home SAcre­tHn· would review his decision to moYe that th0v ngreo to the amendmPnt. He had' li',tc:c.'d V<'ry C.irefull ', to the dcba~,, so far a'5 it had gonf\ and he \vas mcq·e than rver convinced of the absurditv of the amend­ment. He wa,; not draid~ per.wnally, that the Government would prosecute anv of his supportPr., or any of tho Labour suPporters because they did not votZ'. In fact, they·

Jvfr. Ryan.]

2426 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment BilL.

wuulcl '-''1'~' ,~~your to pl~lCC tvcty obstade in tht> vruy Gf th0ir Yotin~·. 'J.1hat waJ tho cbj cct of tlw Bill, and the amcndme:nt was intcnd0d to whip in thooe so-called Liberal supportcb who had lost all confidcncn in the GoYcrnm nt or the "' ings supporting the Governm-:nt; bc·causc personally he had more confid-"llC<' in the Gm ernment than in the rec;; lcitrant suppori.•Ts who had been in­dulging in ba;k-stepping lately. On any tram or train, when the subject of State politics wa brought up, they would hear it stated that tho Denham Government "auld be fired out, and if the Home Secretary's name was mentioned, the remark was made that he '' ould not be there tho next time. I-Ie noticcrl in the "Telegraph" Lmd the " Courier •' the other day, that an officer connected with the Colonial Sugar Refining Uompany addre:-,;ed a nH•eting in ~orth Queemland about some arrangement w1th a harbour board.

The OHAIRYIA~: Order ! The hon. member must confine himself to the amend­ment.

:Yir. RYA~: He wanted to "how what nlight be n>garded as a fmfficicnt rPuson for . nGt .-oting. This was a telegram \Yhich had br'en teceived from Ingham-

" Sputking at the shire council meet­ing yesterday, regarding the possibilit;; of the Co:onial Sugar Refining Company o'.J'aining an extension of it., kase of the Lucinda jutt;y, Mr. Farquhar, inspector in Queensland for the company, said he would like to :'cC i lee Illi:tter fixed up [ .. c:orP the Denham Goverm:wnt wont out) .us it rnig-h~ ne\-Er c01ne b:tck."

iLuuglJtcr.) This clause, taken in conjunc­tion with tlw whole Bill, was a p:·oof that the Gm·crnmcnt was determined t•) use what he might call " a bucolic bludgeon" upon its quondam supporters to compel those jlersons who did not wunt to vote for the

·Government to cast their votes for them­in other word:., to compel so-called Liberals to cast their votes for the GovenE;:ent. He woukl invite the Chief S<·cretm·v's attention to the fact that the Uouncil's · amendment 1nade tho returning offiu;r's decision final. There ,,-as no appeal from him to the Prin­cipal Electoral Rwgistrar. The aged gentle­men in -another place had inserted the amendment without regard to the following subclause.

Mr. KESSELL: Don't vou think the return­ing officerR e.re honc&t ~11en, and will give a fail' •Icclsion?

~lr- RYAX: He wa~ not doubting their hono,t0', but they would gin' their ·decision without hearing the pcr,on concerned, and send it on to the• Principal Electoral Registrar. According to the nr·xt sub­dause, the mere fact of the dol,!llment being put in with the rehuning officer's decision upon it was prima facie evidence of what it contained, and the returning officer who ga Ye the dePi,ion would probably be the magistrate who tried the o<1se, and the only thing the dissatisfied elector had to expect -when he was hauled up befo~e the court would be a fine of £2.

Mr. KESSELL: Do you think the Bill will kill this party?

Mr. RYAN : It would go a long way :towards showing that the hon. member and

p!r. RymL

his f; iends had committr d polih:c::~l suicide. If the Government took his advice, thee would drop the Bill. and no one would squeal more than the hon. memh.-rs in the cfJrner opposite. If they were trying to push tho c:tptain overbcard. t1w bc'-t thing he could do ":H to scuttle the -hip and let them sink togeth0r. (Laughter.)

Mr. PAY~E: The Home Secretary had said that it very rarely happe~ed that a police mao-istrate was a returmng officer, but in nca~ly every electorate in Queensland where there \WS a police magistrate he was a returning officer. If a valid reason was r,ot gi,-cn for not voting-,_ the m:"tter would Le brouuht before the police 1nag1strato, and, ae tho lc,ader of the Oppositiop had . said, ;-hcv '' -.mld lw trying a man without JUdge

or jury. The Committee could [10 p.m.] quite understand that many

eloctorP. if called upon to ~tate why they had not -voted, would not be able to g-iv<· a feasible excuse, and they would ~e fined £2. The thing was monstrous, and 1t was not a fair pu,ition in \Yhich to place a police officer \\ho happened t"! be." return­ing officer, and it was not a fan· thmg to the electors .

The hell indicated that tho hon. mc>mber's ti1,1c had expired.

Mr. THEODORE: The amendment was so iniquitous that member~ ~houl<;J ~xtend thcmseln:s to the utmost hm1ts w1tlun t~e Standing Orders in oppo:<ing it, and _if the1r oppo~ition had the effect of destroymg the amendment, that opposition would be justified. The Hon. the Home Secretary had askPd the Committee to accept .an amendment th,\t \vonld victimie·'; hm';dreds of workers in Queensland. The L1beral party had b>'eome '·0 degenerat8 that they \Yero no\v Tories--

Mr. KLBSELL: Yon have been living on the toile>·· all yam' life.

Mr. THEODORE: The hon. member know,; more about Turkey Station than he doeo, about the workers.

::\Ir. KE"SELL again interjected.

The CHAIR:YlAN: Ordet ! I must ask the hon. member to cca.se interjections, and I must ask the deputy lea~er of the Op­poc-ition to keep to the questwn.

:Mr. THEODORE: The Council's amend­ment was capable of further amendment, in order to make it less objectionable, and he therefore moved that the words " but such deci.ion sh,dl be subiect to revision by the Principal Electoral Registrar" be adele~ to the proviso. It was only fair that thE! nght of re,-ision ·-hould be left with the Prm01pal Electoral Hc·gistrar, while the Coundl"s amendment H;emcd to indi0ate that the Principal Electoral Regictrar rnust ~olio" the deri,ion c'ndor•cd on the form by tne return­ing officer.

Mr. PAYNE: Surely the Home Secre­tan- could ha.-e on obirr,tion to tho amend­me-nt as it would 1nean that every case woul ~1 be treated alik•-•. If the final decision \Vas left with the Principal Electoral Re­gistrar, they would not have one returning­officer fining a man £2 bec1mSE' he refused to walk 6 miles to a polling-booth and another returning officer in anether district letting such a man off.

Elections Acts [3 DECEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 2427

* Mr. WINS.TANLEY (Quemton) entered his protest agamst the Council's amendment. It "·'' surprising that members should be aske~l to con_sider an amendment at that stage vf tne sc •. ,nn. The Goc .,rnrnPnt wore not reh ir:g- on their principles and their policy, but on s?mcthm;. else, for getting votps at the cl~dwn. Tlwo.·e was roum for a great deal Y' oppo •. ltJOu ?n the part of members and t•te electors outwlc who would be prcvcn­t"-·d frorn rccorcliL'; th .. ir yotoP.

The CHAIR\IA::'\ : Order ! The han. gentleman is not dealin~· with the aml'ndment.

2>1r. \\T:\'f'T \:'\LEY : He was oppoBed to -compu],ory ,-oting, because it was impractic­able. In most elections they got a fairly W od mush·r when they got 70 or SO per cent. of the votrrs to the poll. That showed that 20 per cont. of the electors, for a varietv of reasons- ·a~1d legitimate reasonf', too-failP~l to n·corcl thmr votPs at the dection. l.: nder the Council's. amendment they would ]:Je compelled to subm1t re:r~on' why they d1d not Yote. ThPre \\auld be pcoph'r in the bush in uncon­genial surroundings ,,.ho would b~ asked their T('a~ons for _not Yutin(i. The_, would be put to n~conyr,,nwncc, anll \vould haYC to J\·ritc to th·' recurning officr>r, who would be the final arbit0r as to whether the rea<,on" they g-av0 f,)r not Yoting werQ valid rf'asonS. TlwrP \Y cs JF>thin§t in thv Bill to sho'.', thr stnHbrd to which tllf' "''"sons should be l•_ro·wht. If an eler:tor gay e a ,ound and suf!i­~·I('llt rca~on: th:o returning officer might say 1t was a frn-olous reason, or that it was a subt0rfll)Y<'- Something should be laid down in H1° Dill as to what was r- sound and sufficient rr·u-;on for rofusing, or ncgle(~ting, to vote. In m~n;' rases thr• reasons wrmld be just, but thr,,. would not be acceph·d bv the rG'turnin" offi<·c-r, anc! the iniquitous part of it wus that the rehuning officer who ruled that the rea,on "·as not a valid one would sit in judg-m<'nt on the case iE the court lat0r m{. That was ridiculous. It was difficult to undPrstand whv the Hum0 Secretary "auld not accept the umendment, or \>ithclraw the clause alto­gether. ThP claus,· would gin• the Govern­ment a good deal of trouble, but he was more <:m;.cc<ncd about thP Trouble it would gin, to other people in the Stat". He, personally. thotwb: thut every elector who po,ribly could do F-:> ;hould r;o to the polling-booth and vot·'. but th<'rc wne others who had goorl and SOlt"rcl rca>OllS for not ~COing to \]l(' polling-­hoofh, ;.nd it w •. s riclic•1lous that they should hE' p. hali- c1 for doing s0mething lhat they eonld nnt help doing.

::\fr. BOW:YIAK (Fm·tit,,le Yal/1y) thought th.,1t the amcndmn<·nt should be accepted, be­f"tUS tb': pov;:cr in tho Council';<\ an1end:mr,nt vt~s ~oo rrC'c::ft. l-IP had son!C' expPrit)nce of 1\ est01·n elec· orates, whH·e it was difficult. for men and wonwn to vet to the polling-booth, and the Hom£' SeC'rd/trv "\vould h-<\YC 'to make: man provi;,ion for the~ than hn had madP in the past. He knew instances where men wertr callt>d_ cncay De' the shipping compa.nius to go to Pmkenba, and they would have to work for eightePu and twOntY hours at a >tretch. 'rherc "''' n., chanGe vf them gettin.,­away to vote. That should be a r.•r>•wnable (lx_cu_,..;c for not -roting. It Y~Xls an ano1nalv that a police maQ"i;.trate who had acted ,;s rPturning. officer and decid0d en the validitv or otherwise of an cxcnsc ~IiYen bv an elccto'r ~or failing to vote ~hould aften~ards sit in JUdgmcn! on tha.t elector.

At 10.20 p.m.,

Mr. THEODOHE called attention to the •·-tate of the Committee.

Quorum formed.

~Ir. BO\Y~1lA'!'i : Th<o GoYE'mnwnt might, in th:' intcrc,rs of hir play, accept the am0ndment moYPd bv tho leader of the Ol'P'"ition. He really' could not understand the H(Jtne Sc>c·r0hl.ry, who \Va . .;.~ ;;;uppo . ..;cd tu l_1ayc F.',rong dPrnocratic tcndencir>s, propos~ Ing to an .. ;(:>pt the arnendn1ent of the Council, beLt US(' the feet that the e pper Honse h.ld ~ubrniUcd such a proposition ,,·as sirnply anothc'r argum,:nt m favour of alnlishing that Chamb"r wh<>never the opportuni+y arose.

Mr. THEODOHE: TherP wa' no utility in the Council's amendm<'nt. and n'lithe'r the ufinister nor any member "Upporting ~he Go1 ernmcnt had given any reason why 1t should be acceptLrd. The Minister accepted several amendmenh oarlier in the Bill and po ... ,ibly h0 had got so accushmwd to a~cept­mg ,1mendment,, made bY tho Council that he unconsi iouslv nwYed tl1at this amendment be agreed to. · Enm with the modification he (::\fr. Tlwodor0) proposed, the amendment would still be objectionable, for it was onlv part and parcel of a scheme for robbing honest citiz0ns of their right to the fran­chise.

The CHAIH;'.IAK : Order !

Mr. THEODOHE: It was Hident that thro so-r,:tlled Liberal partv were more re­actionarY th:ln thov wer0 'beforE'. He wa" in the "upper library recently. and came a"ross an interesting Yolume call<'d " The Irish Statute" from the vear 1310 to the year 1798." Among't the subjects dealt ·11 ith in those Acts of Parliamonts was one which wa" dealt with in 1793 in an Act "for the better suppreosion of tories, robbP~s. and other bladmuards .. , (Laughter.) It was about timo that \YG had an Act of that do·J.ct·iption hE're. as it would haY<' the effect of prot<·ding the rights of thP people.

The CIL\lR:\fA~: Order ! The hon. member muot confine himeslf to the nmend­ment.

~-~r. THE9DO~E: l\~ember; had no uppvr­tumty of d1scusnng th1' part1cular clause in Committee. as the Bill wa' guillotined through bcforr, thc·y got to that ,tagP. ihou"h the entirdy w.vel principle of eompulso~·y Yoting introduced in clamo 17. and some latitude 'hould haye bL,on allowed. in dealing with it. That clause· introduc0d the prin­ciple of penali ,ing an electoJ· who did not !fO to the poll for rPasons which should not >Llnd against the Plector. No attempt "~s mnd·_ to define what wa1 a valid rea•·c>n for uot Yotiug, and the HomG 8C'(lrctarv ¥.rould not ,t.ato wh,,t might be con-c,idered" a suffi­cient cxruse. Senne returnin~ offic~'l'S might considpr thd if a man wa'' nol allowed time off be' his employer iE order to go to the poll, and he did not vot~ becmc.e he feared that he might lm>e his billet if he left his wnrk, that would be a sufficient reason for not voting, and othd' rPturnin,- officers might not consider it a sufficient reason. \Vhat would happ<'ll where therr- were different decisions as to \Vhat was a valid excuse?

The bell indicated that the hon. member's tim c had expired.

Mr. Theodore l

2428 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

At 10.30 p.m.,

'Ih0 PRE1IIER: I move that the question b·' now put.

Question-That the question be now put-­put; and the Committee divided:-

AYEs, 34. Mr. Allan , Appel ,, j __ rcher

Barnes, G. P. Bt>llbington Bell Bouchard BridO't-S Cain~ CoTser, B. H.

,, Corser, E. B. 0 Crawford Denham Forsvth Graiit Grayson GunTJ.

llr. Hodg(' Kessell Luke ).Ja··kav )fore-all

, ra.ttPt " l'hiip

Lieut.-Col. Rankin Mr. RoL·:.-rts

:-··omrrsct StPven'3 Tolmie 'l'n>ut Yowlc•J Walker "Whit•• ·williams

Tellers: Mr. Archer and :Ur. :Uorgan.

~Q:t.:j, 24. Mr . .Adamson ::Ur. Hunh r

,, Barber L·,tnd. ~' Bertr'f.tm , l.nrr,,ml;e

Rooker L<•n.n1 ·!1

Bmvman Jlay ('")ync }J cL'drma.ck Fihelly :Uurphy Foh'v O'~ullh·an GildAy Paytlt.' Gillks I~ ya.n Hamilton Tlirodorr Hardacre ,. \Yinstanlcv Tellers: nir. Bertram o,nd :Ur. Gillies.

PAIRS,

Aycs-}Ir. W. H. Barnr% and Mr. Petrie. Noe,.-1fr. Huxham and Mr. Kirwan.

Rr,oh-cd in the affirmative'.

Qw'-.tim.-That the words proposed to be added (J[r. Theodore's am cndm 1 nt) be so added--put: and the CommiUe2 divided:­

AYEA, 23. Mr. Adam~0u

, BarLt.t H<>rtv·nm J1o~.V"l1 1.SPA Coynp kih<'lly Folr,

,. Gild~.,,-" Gilli,_;,

Jllr. L~ncl T arcombe

,. Len.no:n .J.Iav ::.\rc:~ormvck 3Iurphy O';·ulliv;tn

,, Payne Hyan Tlwdore \Y indanlP:r

lh,nilton "!"-iarJ:z,··re Hunt€'1' 'l'ellers: Mr. Hunter and ::lcfr. Payne.

, Appel Darnt·,'0, G. P. RC'h1Jing+.on I:,>]] Bouclun·d Bridges Cainf' Corser, D. H.

,, Crawford Ih>nhnm 1'\n.,vth Gnnlt

, Grav.son , Gur;u

NoEs, 32. :Ur. Ke,-.dl

Luk\'' ., ::Uackay , )f•,•gan , Paget .. Philp

I~ic>ut .-Col. Rankin 1\:::-r. H o ~~.··rts

,, 8omcrt:et , , ~·tc'·. '1" , Tc1mi.• ,. Trout • • ,~ 0\''lf';~

, \Yallrcr , \\ hiTC

, Hodge To~!Ze-Ts: Mr.

~· \Yilliam'< Crawford and Mr. Williams.

PAIRS.

Ayt~-]fr. Huxham and J\'Ir. Kirwan. ~oes-:J.lT. \Y·. H. Barnes and ::Ur. Petrie.

Rewh-cd in the negatiYe.

!Bon. D. F. Denham.

Original question put. At 10.40 p.m., The PREMIER: I moye that the question

be now put. Question-That the qu0,tion be now put

(.llr. !Jcnham' s motion)-put; and the Com­mittee divided:--

AYES, 34. Mr. ·\llan , Appel

..:\rcht>r Barnes, G. P. EC'blJington Bdl Bouchard Hr]dgr" Ctdne Oor:'t-z'r, B. II. ('Qrser, E. B. C. Crawford Denlmm Forsyth Grant Gravyon Gunll

Mr. Hodge Kess('ll I.uk·' }!a•;.i'lY )lo.q.to;ll ragpt

,. Phi!p I.i··nt.-Cul. lL-"nkin :J.1r. l~Gbrrts

.. tome-n.;:·t · Stevena

Tolmic Trant YmvL~ Walkrr White \Villiam

Tellers: Mr. Bebbington and :Ur. Cain.e.

Mr. ~\.clams~~·n Barl:,er

, Rertram Bow.man Cov11 · J:'iiu~ll:y i'~f 1ev t. ill~:~y Gilties 1~.\milton 1-~ a.rf1acrc. t~llll\.£'}

Te~lt·l'S: )1r.

.No:x·.·:J, 23. ::11r. L\ncl

J) Lar:··\..'lllhc: ,. I ... C'Illl"~n

}Jay ::~ ( .', '.:"Jrmacl;: }lurph_,· 0'. ulliv;tn

;.~y.J.n

'illt. ;)}'(' \fim.t dd ·y

::11urphy ancl Mr. O':lullivan. PAIRS.

\;n•.s-)Ir. \Y. H. Barnf.'S and :Jfr. Petrie. Xoe~-::Ur. Huxham and J.Ir. Kin.szan. Resolwd in the affirmati.-e. The rAOtion--Th,;t the Committee agree tO>

the Council's amendment on clause 18, as. amended (J.fr .• ·lpprl's motion)-was carried on division by 33 votes to 23. The voting was exactlv similar to tlmt in the last divieion, w!th the exce-ption that Mr. Allan did not vote.

On clause 20-" Protectiori to soldiers''­The HOME SEC.RE'rARY: The Legisla­

tive Council had :>mitted the subclause deal­ing with the proYision which was made for the giving of a vote for soldiers and inserted a new clause in lieu .,hereof. He proposed to move that the amendme:-:tt of the Council be· agreed with, with amendments. He moved the omiBoion of all the words aftc'r "district" on line 17. page 9, and the insertion of-

" for which he is enrolled, and such elector may, on the prescribed form, nominate and appoint some person resi· dent in Queensland to exercise such right of voting on his behalf. Every such nomination shall be attested by an officer of thE' forces with which st!Ch elector is serving not baing below the rank of captain, and shall be forwarded by such officer to the Principal Electoral Regis­trar, v.ho sht,ll forthwith advi"' the returning officer of the district in which the ek< tor is enrolled. Thereupon the per4-}J1 so nominated and appointed to exercise >nch right of voting in lieu of the elector may exercise such right. The "'"'rcise of any such right sh~tll be with­out pn•judice to ,u,ny right to .-ote which such person may have in hi5• own personal capacity as an elector. Re5;ulations may be made bv the Governor in Council for gi ,-ing full" dfect to this section."

Tht· ;,mendmrnt would preserve the rights-

Elections Acts [3 DECEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 2429

{)f the soldiers., and they would Fie entitled to vote for the di:>trict for which they were enrolled. As tho amendmPnt had come from the Council, it was nothing more nor less than a burlesque.

Mr. BOWJ\IAN and other OPPOSITION MEMBERS: The whole thing is a burlesque.

The HO.ME SECRETARY: It would have b~en a greater burlesque to grant the nght to exercise only prior to the depar­ture of the troops. 'rhe amendment as sent down by the Council would have the .effect that the vote could on!' be exercised by two means-by ballot or by postal vote. He left it to han. members to sav whether it would be possible to exercise the franchise by either of these means, und0.r the conditions, because the vote then could onlv be exercised after the nominations had been made. The names of the candidC~teH would have to. be sent to Europe, and how would it be possible to communicate the names of the candidates to the soldiers who were entitled to voh' ? In con,idering the amendment originally, which was accepted by the leader of the Oppo,\ition, he, to a great extent adopted the course which had been followed in New Zealand, where provision had been made by which members of the Expeditionary Fore<:> could leave proxie.s, but those who were to act as their proxies were limited to tP,e le!'lders. of the different political parties. To Ius mmd, that was an objectionable feature.. Th~y ha'! broadened the seope in connectiOn with this amendment by making it any resident within the State of Queens­land. ~r. RYAN: You are only propo.ing to

,5dve OllO vob:?

Til~ HO:YIE ST'CRETARY: On;, vote. It wonlcl br· left open for tho ,.oldier who was <!xorc.isin;; hie, vote ihe rigLt to nominate m Ins proxy .the. le<:der of his party, the n1en~ltr-i· for h1s d1stnct, aLy m(:rnber of his fmn1ly, o_r any elr·ctor v.:honl he 1night de'c'irP to f'xerCise the francJu,.e for him. There would b0 no violation of the sPcrccv of th,n ballot. The elpctor would nominate 'U proxy, and the proxy woulcl vote, either hv means Df the ballot or the postal vote. H<' could not see an;,' reasonable objection to this method, and it was practic,,dly the onlv method by which the soldiers would be enabled to exercise their right. This would <mabie them to make a nomination in any part of the world where they might be prior to the holding of a general election.

Mr. THEODORE: Does this apply to those who have departed as well as to those who have not left ?

The HO.ME SECRETARY: It included ·everyone. In whatever part of the world the soldier might be, so lono- as he filled in the prescribed form and it ~vas witnessed by an ·officer, of no less. a rank than captain, it would secure to him, through a resident in Qnf'ensland, .tho right to Fxercise the fran­-chise.

:!\ir. RYAN: A majority of the Committee had already decided th<.tt any person who ·departed from Queensland on military s<'rvice should be entitled to a vote.

Mr. KESSELL: You don't think that is reasonable?

Mr. RYAN: Certainly it was reasonable. Any persons who were willing to I-isk their lives in defence of the Empire were entitled

to have a say as to who. should be the people's representatives m thu Parliament

[11 p.m.] o~ Queensland. 'l'hey should be , gn-en an opportunity of saying

wno should represent them, because there was no better qualified person to judge who ~hould govern the country, in caoes like this, than th.ose who. :vent fmth to, dcf;md the Empire. \\'hat posrhon rmght ancu m South Africa If cn-e was not taken as to who should Le rcturw·J to govern that portion of the Em­pire'! As to the balderdash about them not having asked fo!' it-the Tory crv that thcv had ~ot a~ked for it-was Parliament going to refuse It to them because tlwy had not uskcd for it? Should Parliament not extend to rlw;n the rights of citizenship? Should it he necessary in a British community that they should come and asl, for h? If that was neccosury, it would be very easy for them to makP a request, but thev expected Parlia­ment to Rive them citizen rights, and he (::\Ir. R:yan) did not think many people Y'could be deceived with the flimsy argument that had been put forward that they had not asked for It. That was all the more reason why Parlia­ment ohonld allow them the right' should tlrey choose to exercise it. Parliament was not forcing them to exercise the right but was makir:g spccial_provi~ion by >'hieh they might exermse that nght, If thev thoug·ht fit. The Council's amendment defeated the whole ob­jects of the clause, and the amendment moved ry the Home Secretary gave a soldier the right !o vote- by proxy, if he w"s an elector· 1Jut, ~ueing that a n1ajority of thP Oomn1itte~ il'd decided in favour of giving a vote to anyo..~.lt:> \vho Yolunteerrd, he S::l\V no reason \\ h_v n10 Oonnnitt~e should alter the opinion it then rccordecl. An vane who , olunl:cered "a go fort.h in <kfence of tlw Em pir<' was eatitled to a vote.

::\Ir. l(E;' ~ELL: It is a rnere provincial matter.

::\lr. IlYA::\: li0 regardEd it national malter. Eo rc~garded it as one of the - ,,.,·tc': cpe-iil'I" ihat could l>< considered

d.; lion-<,. The Government had been ~iYen to nHden-tand th~tt public opinion in Q,:..~·un!3b.nU ,y,,., sn strong upP11 tllG 1natter tk l th- ' ha,! c~h-on wa:.- to the extent they did. Fwm the moment the Bill was intro­duced, he (::\Ir. Ryan) had advocated to give th,, volunt' ers a vote, and he was inclined to cong,·a•ulate the Home Secretarv on giving •ray to that demand of public opinion. As the amcndm.ent had not been printed, he rugg·c cte-d that It should be allowed to stand over until to-morrow, when thev "ould have an opportunity of perusing it and taking ·a vote.

.Mr. MORGAN: It is your same old amend­ment-the amendm<mt vou and th<Y Home Recretar~· had a conference on and agreed to.

::Ylr. RYAN: The rank and file in Parlia­ment weoe· like the rank and file in the army, and they should obey their leaders. They could never be leaders unless they learned to be good followers.

At 11.15 p.m.,

The CHAIRMAN: Under Standing Order ?\o. 11, I call upon the hon. member for Cooroora to relieve me in the chair.

Mr. WALKER took the chair accordingly.

Mr. RYA:;\f asked the Home Secretary to move the Temporary Chairman out of the chair, and ask leave to sit again. He would oppose leave to sit again, because he woul-d

Mr. Ryan.]

2430 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

prefer that the Committee should not sit again on thi,, Bill; but if they de~ided to sit "o·ain thev could take the bnsmess up agai1~ to:morrow night after Supply. ~ad bPml disposed of. The House was s1ttmg for fn·e dav.o a week, and it "as too much for mc•.ntl£'l:S. It mc.ont theY had to rise at 6 in the morning and keer{ going unt.il 12 o\lock ,,t night. The House should a·dJourn at a certain tin1e ~.'\ ":-.ry nig·ht! and get it~ businc'<s through by that time. It was pos­sible that •.<Jme other ame'ldment would be llloYcil. al\tl one should be moved to give the soldiers the rights of citizenship. He asked tlw Prcmi 0 r to adjourn.

The PHE:VIIER : The amendment they were dis. ussing is well known. It is in substance the 'arne amendment which had left th:> \&ocmbly, with the exception that thev suh-titutod an ''elector" for a "p~rson." The principle was a simple one. Th<e ~oJdi,,r could leave with his friend a proxy. and the proxy would be. exercised. by that friend. The person vohn~ certamly had tD be on the roll. The amendment was well under~tDDd, and he hop0d they would comC' to a division {)n it.

Mr. THEODORE: It is quite understood.

The PRE::VIIEH : Then, there \vas no reason for \Vasting any n1ore n1on1ents on it.

:Mr. LEXXON and other 0PPOSITIOX ::\llEoi­BERS: Adjourn, adjourn!

Th<' PRE~IIER: Xo.

::\1r. THEODORE: 1'he reason for asking for the postponement of the matter. was that members might havo ~n opportumty to draft an amendment in the proper place. If that were an ordinary Committee stage Df the Bill no difficulty would arise, because amendments could be moved in different parts of the new clauoe, but when they were cDncidering an amendment of the Counml, they had to accept or reject that amend­ment or accept the amendment proposed by the Minister. It would be much better to adjourn and take time to cDnsider the amendment. \\'hen the matter was before thP CDmmittce on a previous occasion, the hDn. mc'mber for Murilla took a noble and independent stand · Dn the question as to whether they should gire to persons going a"av with the ExpeditiDnary Force the right to vote at the next ensuing general election. He (Mr. Theodore) moved an amendnwnt Dn the clause which was then befDrc the Committee, and fourteen me)Jl­bers voted against the amendment and fmtv-ono in fa VDUl' of it. Those whD wted for the amendment were: Messrs. AdamsDn, Archer, Barber, Bebbington, Bell, Bertram, Bowman, Caine, B. H. Corser, E. B. C. Corser, Coyne, Crawford, Fihelly FD!ey, Forsyth, Gilday, Gillies, Grant, Grayson, Hamilton, Hardacr[J, Hodge, Hunter, Huxham, Kirwan, Land, Larcombe, Lennon, Mav, McCormack, Mmgan, Murphy, O'Sul­livan, Payne, Philp, Ryan, Stevens, Theodore, Twut, Vmvles, and Winstanley. They were now asked to go back on that decision and revert to the original proposi­tion Df the Home Secretary restricting the votes to elccton, which would have the effect Df depriving 50 per cent. Df the soldiers of a vote, as they were nDt enrolled. Those men were just as competent and just .as much entitled to vote as if the~· were electors. and he hoped an opportunity would be g-iven to members to vote on the clause as it left that Chamber, and before it was

[~~fr. Ryan.

tamper,•d with by another place m .an unseemly and indecent manner.

Mr. PAYNE : The Home Secretary had told them that the amendment now proposed made the clause exactly what it was when it left the ~'l..,sembly. It did nothing of the sort. The clause as it left the Assembly allDwed " any person" whD departed with His );Iaj esty' s forces during the present war to vote at the next general electiDn, while tha present amendment limited the vote to men who were electors. In any case, it was not fair that members should be asked to vote on an amendment which they had not befme them in print, as it was impossible for them to grasp the alteratiDn which wa' made by the typewritten amendment the Home .Sec­retarv had submitted. If the Comm1ttea supp;rted a nDminee Chamber in putting obstacles in the way of the soldiers getting a vote, they would be acting in a most contemptible manner. They could give his

vote to the VOlT least of those [11.30 p.m.] men, oven if it. meant that he·

would have tD go out of the House to-morrow. The clause, as proposed to be amended by the Home Secretary, was not the same as when it left the Assembly. The clause as it left that Chamber provided that everv member, even of tho Fi>:st Ex­peditionary Force, w"1s entitled to a vote, evc>n if he had been here only twD months.

The PREMIER : As hon. membe1·s Dn the· Dther oide seemed to be anxious tD know what he was going to do, he would mo\·e· that the quc,tion be now put.

Qm•stion-That the question be now put­put; and the Committee divided:-

"Ir. _\]]an " .\ppp]

.\rchpr " Ban,_ .. 'S, G. r.

B\·bJJin::rh:J. B, ll •

Book- r Bouchard

, ~~\~~es ,, Cor"er, B II.

AYE.S, 32. )lr. GraJ son

Gunn , Hod~e

I\: I ~l'f'll

, LukP , 3Iackay n .:.Uorgan

P·lo·e7 ,. Phflp.

Lient,-Col. Rar~kiv J.lr. Somerset

.. Con:<'r, E. B. C. ,, Stevc-;n.s Ctawford Denham Forovth Grant

, TolnnC' , Ymvks ., White , Williams

TelleN: }fr. Bell and :lir. B. H. Cors0r.

Mr. Barber Bc>rtram Bowman

, CoynC' , Fihclly

Fol'v , Gildity

Gillies Hamilton Hardacre

Tellers: ::lfr.

XoEs, 19. Mr. Land

Larcom he ,. )lay

McC01·mack O'~ullhan Pavnc Hviw Theodore ""'"instanley

Fihelly and :lir. O'Rnl!iyan.

PAIRS. AH•-}fr. W. H. Barnes, :lir. Petrie, and llfr­

Trotlt. ~oes-Mr. Huxham, Mr. Kirwan, and J.Ir.

Murphy. Re-solved in the affirmative.

Mr. THEODORE : He would like to ask whC'thPr the Home Secretary would consent to "·ithdraw his amendment, in order that he, mirrht move a prior amPndmcnt on the 'econd line?

The HOME SECRETARY: No . The TE:\IPORARY. CH _\IR::YIAN : Order !

Such a motion would be contrary to the­Standing Orders.

Elections Acts [3 DECEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 2431

Qttcstion-That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the amendment (Mr. Appd .< amrndment on cla11se 20)-put; and the Committee divided:-

.AYES, 22. ~lr. Barber

Bf'rtram Eouchard

, Io>Ynuln Coyne

, Fihelly ,, FolPy , Gilll'f,y

Gillif'S

}!r. Hodge I.and Larcomb1 l\Iav

, 3-lc(>lrmack ,. :Morgan

(Y,·nllivan I)ayne

·.: Ryan , Throdon• .. Hamilton

, Hardacre Tellers: Mr. Bertram an'd J,_~n~~'g~Jmack.

NOES, 29. Mr. Allan

, .\ppel , Archer

Barnes, G. P. Beb;Jington Bell Booker

, Bridges Caine Corser, B. H. Corser, E. B. C. Crawford Dt'nham Forsvth Grant

Mr. Grayson Gunn Kr:.-sPll J,uke

, }lackay , Pagpt ,, }Jhilp

Lieut.-Col. Rankin l\lr . .Somerset

Stevens T''·'lmie Yowles '1\ hite \Yillbms

Tellers: 1lfr. Grayson and }fr. ~Iackay.

PAIRS .

.Ayrs-.:Ur. Huxham, Mr. Kir\~tan, and }lr. Murphy.

:Sors-}fr. \.Y. H. Barllf''l, Mr. Petrie, and 1Ir. Trout.

RPsoh·ed in the negativ". Question-That the word, proposed to be

inserted (Jlr. Appel's runendmrnt) be so in­sorted-put.

Mr. RYAN: He did not »ish to delay the Committee in any way, but he would like to have a statement from those hon. members who on the last occasion voted for the amend­ment aH it left the Assembly for the Council, after being carried by forty-one votes to fourteen. The names had b<"en read out, and prominent amongst them wore those of the bon. member for 'l'ownsville, and, he thought, the bon. member for Murrumba. It would faoilibte matters if thev knew how those bon. members wore going b vote on the question of the acceptance of tho Council's amendment, as proposed to be amended by tho Home Secretary, because if tho whole thing was rejected it would be back to the form in which it left the Committee. Were tho,· going to stick to their guns in the same way as they expected of the brave men who were going to the front?

At 11.48 p.m., The PREMIER : I move that the ques­

tion be now put. Question-put; and tho Committee

divided:-AYEs, 31.

Mr. Allan , Appel

Archer ,, Barnes, G. P.

Bebbington Be]J Booker Bouchard Bridges CainP Corser, B. H. Corser, E. B. C. Crawford Denham For,yth Grant

3-Ir. Grayson , Gunn , Hodge ,, KC'S~(·ll

Luke , 3-Iackay , Morgan , Paget

TJieut.-Col. Rankin Mr. 8omerset

, Stevens H Tolnu~'

Towles White Williams

Tellers: Mr. Boll f.nd Mr. Kc,1sell.

Mr. Barber Bertram Bowman Covne

, Fihelly Foley

, Gilday Gillies llamilton llardacre Tellers: Mr.

NOES, 20. 3-ir. Land

,, Larf'omb': }Jay

" ::\lcCornw<~k O'Sullivun Pa~·ne

, Philp , Hyan

Theodore , \Vin 1tanlcy

Barber and Mr. Gillies. PAIRS.

.1.ycs-:Yr. \V. H. Barnes, Mr. l)etrie, and Mr. Trout .

Nops-:air. Huxham, )fr. Kirwan, and ::.\Ir. }furphy.

Resolved in the affirmatiw. Question-That the words proposed to be

in.,;erted (Jlr. Az!ptl's cLinendmcnt) be so in­serted-put; and the Committee divided:-

!Ir. Appel ~\rcher

, Barn:s, G. P. , Bebbington

Bdl , Bool;;~r

,. Bridgea , Caine , Cor~f'r, ll. H.

AYES, 25. Mr. Grant

Gunn , Hodge , Luke ,, )fackay , Paget

Lieut.-Col. Rankin :Jir. :,·ornerset

,, Tolmie ., Coraer, E. B. C. , Crawford

, Yowles , White

Pt~nham ,. Williams

" }'of~)J!~8: :llr. Grant and Mr. Gunn.

:Jlr. BJ'.Irb~r , .Bertran:

Bouchard ,. BowmP,!l , Coyne .. FiheEy ,, :F'ol('y , Gil{lay ., Gillies " Gl'l..l.J'ciOll , Hamilton

Hardacre Tellen: Mr.

NOES, 2'3. ~Ir. Land

, J,0',f>' 'lllllW :liay Jie- _:ormack ::\forgan o·;-;ullivan

, Payne Philp Ryan rrht'odor(> Winstanley

Foley and }fr. O'Sullivan. PAIRS.

Aycs-~11·. W. H. Barnes, Mr. Petrie, and Mr. Trout.

){oes-Mr. Huxham, Mr. Kirwan, and Mr. }furphy.

RP,oh·ed in the affirmative. Question-That the Legislative Council's

amendment, as amended, be agreed to-put. Mr. RY~-\N thought it was as well that

cverv bon. member should understand ex­actlv what the position was. Thev had to choose between agreeing to the "council's amendment, with certain amendmente, or

adhering to the previous deci­[12 p.m.] sion of the House. That was the·

difference between the Council's amendment as amended and the Bill in the form it left the Assembly by a vote of forty­one to fourteen. Fortv-one members voted in favour of giving a .. ~ate to every member of the Expeditionary Force, and by voting "Ko" on the question before the Committee hon. members would record their votes .as­they recorded them before. Although cPr­tain members voted for the insertion of the words, they might still votH against the clause as amended. \Vere they going to v,o back on the vote they cast for the soldiers, because if they did what die! they think of the soldier who went back on the duty he went forth to perform ?

Thx' PREMIER: He was perfectly cer­tain that members on that side of the: Cham­ber clearly knew what they were doing. They recognised that the eledor who went to war would be able, through his friend-

Han. D. F. Denham.]

:2432 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

through his proxy-to record hi~ Yote. It was quitC' clear that ample proYision had been made, and, as he did not think it necessary that members on the Goyernment side of the House should receiye a lecture at that time of the night, he moycd that the ·question bo now put.

QLH"tion-That the que,tion be now put­put; and the Committee diYided :-

AYEs, 32. Mr. Allan , Appel , Archer , Barnes, G. P. , Bebbington

Bell Booker

,. Bouchard , Bridges

Caine , Corser, B. H. , Corser, E. B. C. , Crawford , Denham , Forsyth

Grant Telle>·s: Mr. Mackay

NoEs, Mr. Barber

Bertram ,, Bowman

Coyne Fihe!ly

, Foley GildaY Gillies Hamilton

Mr. Grnvson , Gunll ,, Hodt:l' , Kes;c\,dl , I .. uke ,, Jia(kay

Mor_s'~lll ,, ruset " J'hilp

I,ieut.·Col Hankin Mr. ~omer~:~et

'"" Steven,:; ., Tolmie ., Yt,wles , White , Williams

and Mr. Williams. 19. Mr. Land

Larcomk} , May

.li<CCo:;_·nutck , 0' ~ullivan

Payne }{Y!l:l Th(;J~lorC' \Yins~nnley

, Hft.rdacre 1' ellers: Mr. Coyne and Mr. Winstanley.

PAIRS. An,-)fr.

'Trout. 1v·. H. Barnes, }fr. p, trie, and )ir.

Noes-Mr. Huxham, Mr. Murphy.

Kirwan, aud }!r.

ReeQh ,,d in the affinnatiYe.

Que~tion-That the Ler.;islative Council's am.end111ents. as a1nenderl. he agreed to­put; nn,J tho Committee di\·iuecl :-

i.Ir .. AlL .. n \pp,,] \rd:t, r

., Bnr>, ·.,, G. P. , , Bp1 ·lJington

B·,·1l n(-.{)kC'r

. , Bri::!gcs Caint·

H.

AYES, 29. l\Ir. Grnvscn

,, Gun~n ~o,~ge

, LnhC' ,, )lackay , Jl~RS:'Pt , Plnlp

T,i ut.·C:ol. Hankin )Ir. ~omerset

, ~tevens .. c'lr't·)·, n. , CorEt•r, E. B. C. " Tolmic

Crawforcl . , nl~nham , Foreyth

fl-r--lnt

Yowles , White ,. \Villiams

Tellers: Mr. Gunn and Mr. Luke.

Ur. Barber ., Bertram

Bowman Coyne li1ih~l1y Foley Gilday Gillies Hamilton

~. Hardacre Tellers: Mr.

~OES, 20. Mr. Land ,, Larrombe , May

.~r cCormack , Morgan

0' Sulli ·van , Payne , Hyan

'fhPodore-.. \Yinstanley

Fihelly and Mr. Gilday. PAIRS.

Ayrs-Mr. W. H. Barnes, Mr. Petrie, and Mr. Trout.

Noes-Mr. Huxham, Mr. Kirwan, and Mr. Murphy.

Resolved in the, affirmativf'. The HOME SECRETARY moved that the

Temporary Chairman leave the chair and

!Han. D. F. Denham.

report that the Committee had agreed to some of the Legislative Council's amend­menb, and agreed to others with amend­ments.

Mr. RYAN wanted to make it clear as to what was the result of the vote just taken. The Chief Secretary said that those who \·otecl against the last question Yoted against giving the soldie11s a vote at all.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! ::'IIr. RYAN: That just emphasised the

depth of the d~coit of han. nwmlwrs oppo­" i10. The vote they gave on the Opposition ~ich" of the House was to leave the clause as it left the As'"~mlolv in the first instance, IHe,~r, h<'aT ~) Onlj one me.nber from the Gov,•riHlH3!t sidr hall the cDurage to stick to lii~ guns anJ ,~,~te hr yoted on tht" forn1er oceaBion.

::\Ir. ARCHER: And he saY~ tht,t he went over to vote against givin'g the soldiers a vote.

::'\Ir. HYAX: He would not belieYe that unle'" th0 han. member ,,aid so himself. As long .; H as _:n::s.de C 1 ,~ar ·what the odivi:sion v. J.s, he v,-,J.'c ::.mtisfied.

Hox. R. PHILP ]ninted out that he \·oted ·with tlw Governrnent to give a certain number of the soldiers a yoto. He was in favour of giving them all a vote, and in the lJ:'C'Viou::o: diviFion h:- had voted in that direc­tion. If ho ha·cl vot d with the Opposition on the division just taken, he would have vcted to give no vob'8 to tho soldiers. (HcP", hear ~) The question ''\a~ whether the "oldiers should get votb or not. and he vot, d in favour Df gh~ing thetn yotes.

:\Ir. THEODORE: The question was that tlE: Council's an1endn1ent, as a In ended, be agrcccl to, and they had to vote in fayour of bh-in:r vote<;'. to .an soldier;:; or only to th"c" ho '\erP elector'. The Opposition vote~1 in fayour of giving votes to all r·>lclit:':3, a11d ll1PinbeL"- on the Govern1nent -:ide· \ote·l t'1 giY1' votes only to those who t:q>penl'cl tD be el{lci<1rs. On the last occa­sion thirL'cn nlelnlx·rs of tho Liberal party '"" :•, cl to :1:ivc ail the soldiPrs a Yotc. and it ,a< u,rri ,,! b: \1 tn 14. but in the ·division

LJ \~en tlh~ hon. me1nbcr for :3Iurilla -was onlv QllC wlw h~d t:w coura,,.: to stick

tn hi· i.;"IllS and vut>:"' as he previOn'"·Jy did­to g-in' ~ vote to all soldiers .

The Houd' r•osumecl. The TEMPOR.IRY CHAin'H:'i reported that the Committee had agreed io •'ome of the Conncii's amendments and aRreed to other,,, with amcRdments .

RE1'0IJT FRO}! ('01DIITTEF,

The HO::\IE SECRETARY: I move that the report be adopted.

::'lfr. HARDACRE : There is evidently some misunderetanding with regard to one amend­ment, and I am wre that when the House realises tho position they will not adopt the report. The big qu.<estion raised on one am<mdnwnt 11as whether ''""' should give a vote to thP soldiers who have clep"'rted from Quuensland, or whether we should limit that vob' to those soldiers who were electors on the electoral roll. I prefer the clause as it ldt this House, and I moye that ;,o much of the report be omitted as limits the vote to volunteers who are electors on the electoral roll.

Mr. RYAN: I rise to second the amend­ment. It will giye an opportunity to those han. members who Yoted in favour of re­'1lining that particular clause as it left thie

Ele~tion,9 Acts [3 DiEJCE;\!:BER,] Amendment Bill. 2433

House to roconsidm thf• vote they just gave, which limits the vote io volunteers who are already on the electoral roll. The bon. mem­ber for Townsville evidently misunderstood the position, as he seemed to think that by the vote he first gave he was limiting the number of volunteers who would be en· titled to vote as elector,, and I think we should have an opportunity to reconsider the whole position and to rdutc· the sug­gestion made by members on the front Trea­surv bench that those who voted in favom· of the clause as it left here voted against giving a vok to the soldiers. I hope that the amendment will be Parried, and that we shall givc> every soldier a vote. It i:; a re­grettable thing to see the repre•0ntatives of property going back on the men who are going to the front to defend their property.

The SPEAKER : 'rho amendment is vague and indefinite. It reads "'l'hat so mueh of the report be not adopted as limits the vote to volunteer, who are electors on the elec­toral rolls." I c1mnot accept it. The ques­tion i~-That the report of the Committee be adopted.

J\Ir. 'l'HEODORE: I have no doubt that the Spe+<ker will extend to me the latitude that is duo in a case like this to enable me to draft an amendment whiPh I wish to pro­paso. :;\Iembers should not be deprived of an opportunity of making their position clear, especially as some members have made a blunder in voting on this question.

The PRE~IIER: There has been no blunder.

Mr. THEODORE : Ther<> has been a blunder. The bon. member for Townsville admitted that he voted to give a certain number of the soldiers a vote when the question really before the Corn'mittee was whether we should limit the vote to volun­teep; who arc electors or adhere to the clause as it originally passed the Committee. I hold that we are asked to affirm a decision which was arrived at erroneouslv and I de­sire to exrise from the report the' part which states that w0 agree to the amendment of the Council in clause 20, with an amendment. I ha:e no douJ:lt that the Spr·aker will give me time to wnte my amendment.

Ho~: R. PH~LP : I should like to explain the misconception on the other side of the House. \Yhen I voted in the first instance the motion was to omit ecrtain words and we failed to carry that amendment. ,, The last vote I gave was to give a vote to volun­teers who are electors. (Hear, hear!)

. The SPEAKER: I hope that the delibera­tions of the Committee will not be made the

subject of discussion in the [12.30 a.m.] House. The Chairman made a

. certain report from the Com-nuttoe, and I presume that the Committee came to ~ertain de~isions with regard to all ~he questiOns submitted to it. The question Is--That the report of the Committee be adopted.

Mr. PAYNE: Mr. Speaker--

Mr. THEODORE: Mr. Speaker, I asked for time to draft an amendment.

The SPEAKER : The bon. member for Ch_illago:e asked me to give him time to write his amendment, and I granted his request; and while the bon. member was doing s_o, the bon. member for Townsville

1914-7K

rose to make a personal explanation with regard to something that occurred in Committee.

Mr. THEODORE: I move that the motion be amended by the omission of the words­

.. Agree to the Legislative Council's amendment to clause 20, as amended."

That will have the effect of enabling us to adopt all the report but that part which refer:> to clause 20.

The SPEAKER : The question before the House i:;: 'l'hat the report be agreed to. The amendment proposed by the bon. mem­ber for Chillagoe cannot be accepted as an amendment to this question. It is a direct negative of the motion for the adoption of the report of the Committee, and the bon. member's object oon be attained by voting against the report.

Mr. PAYKE: I do not think the House should adopt the report of the Committee, because certain things were done in Com­mittee that the House should not adopt. \V e were asked to accept an amendment that was not circulated. .,

The SPEAKER : Order ! The bon. mem­ber may not discuss wha.t was done in Com· mittee.

Mr. P A. YNE: I do not think the report of the Committee should be adopted. The Committee was in a state of disorganisation all night. I move that the report be not adopted unless that amendment be disagreed to.

The SPEAKER: Order!

:Ylr. PAYNE: When the Bill was ongm­ally before the Committee, clause 20 wao agreed to by 41 votes to 14. The Council wiped out the principle which was affirmed by that vote, and the question was so care­lessly and ignorantly put before the Com­mittee that bon. members had not an oppor­tunity of seeing where they were, and they rushed the question through to this stage, and asked the House to adopt the report. I am quitA satisfied that, if the question had been intelligently put, the Committee would have decided exactly in the same way as they did before the Bill went to the Council.

The SPEAKER: I cannot accept the amendment proposed by the bon. member for Mitchell for similar reasons to those given a few minutes ago in regard to an amend­ment proposed by the bon. member for Chillagoe .

Question-That the report of the Com­mittee be agreed to-put; and the Com· mittee divided :-

.AYES, 3:J. Mr. ,,\]]an

, Appel ArchPr Barnes, G. P. Bebhington Bell Bookrr Bouchard

, Bridges Caine Cors?r, B. H Corsrr, E. B. 0, Crawford Drnh=tm ForsvTh Grant Grayson

Mr. Gunn , Hodge ,, KPssc~] ,, LukE' , Mackay , Morgan , Jln.gct ., Philp

Lieut.·Ool. Rankin :1Ir. ,"''omrrset

,. ~tP''~' ns , Tolnde ,. 'Vowles , '.Yalkor , White .. Williams

Teller:r: Mr. Mackay and Mr. Williams.

Han. W. D. Arrnstr071rJ.]

2434 Elections Actl'l, Etc., Bill. [COUNCIL.] Death of Hon. A. J. Stephensom.

NoEs, 19. 3Ir. Barber

Bertram ,, Bowman

Coyne

:Ur. L~tud , Larcombe , May , McCormack , H' Sullivan ,. Payne

,, Fihelly , Foley

Gilday , Ilyan ,, Gillies

Hamilton Hardacre

2'ellers:

,, Theodore , 'Vinstanley

Mr. Foley and Mr. Payne.

PAIRS.

Aycs-illr. \V. H. Barnes, Mr. Petrie, nnd Mr. Trout.

Noes-Mr. Huxham, Mr. Kirwan, and Mr. Murphy.

Resolved in the affirmative. On tho motion of the IIO::.VIE SECRE­

TARY, the Bill was ordered to be returned to t:1o Council, with the following me ,sa~e :-

"Mr. Presiding Chairman, "The Legislative Assembly having had

under consideration the Legislative Council's amendments in the Elections Acts Amendment Bill, beg now to inti­mate that they-

" Agree to the amendment in clause 17 (now 18), page 7, with the following amendment :-

Line 28-after the word ' Shall,' in­sert the words · after making all reasonable inquirie~,' in which amendment they invite the con­currence of the Legislative Council.

" Agree to the amendments in clause 20, omitting lines 47 to 56 on page 8, and lines 1 to 11 on page 9, and to the proposed new paragraph on page 9, with the following amendment:-

Omit all the words after ' district,· on line 17, to the word ' section ' on line 20, and insert the follow­ing:-· for whieh he is enrolled, and such elector may, on the pre­S<Jribed form, nominate and appoint some person reBident in Queens­land to exercise such right of vot­ing on his behalf. Every such nomination shall be attested by an officer of the forces with which such elector is serving not being below the rank of captain, and shall be forwarded by such officer to the Principal Electoral Regis­trar, who shall forthwith advise the returning officer of the district in which the elector is enrolled. Thereupon the person so nominated and appointed to exercise such right of voting in lieu of the elec­tor may exercise such right. The exercise of any mch right shall be without prejudice to any right to vote which such person may have in his own personal capacity as an elector. Regulations may be made bv the Governor in Council fer giving full effect to this section.'

in which amendments thev invite the concurrence of the Logislat!ve Council.

" And ~gree to all other amendments in the BilL"

Question put and passed.

The House adj om·ned at fifteen mim1tes to 1 o'clock a.m.

[Han. J. G. Appel.