in the supreme court of south africa (witwatersrand … · now, you live in dalinyebo stx-eet, (30)...
TRANSCRIPT
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IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA (WITWATERSRAND LOCAL DIVISION)
JOHANNESBURGCASE NO. 3464/86
1986.06.05
BEFORE THE HONOURABLE MR JUSTICE CC DSTONE
In ths matter between:
THE KRUGEKSDORP RESIDE" VS ORGANISATION Fir.ut ApplicantAND FOUR OTHERS
ancl
THE MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER Virst RespondentAND TWO OTHERS
c'C
ON BEHALF OF THE APPLICANTS
ON BEHALF OF TIIE_ FIRSTAND SECOND’ RES P ON D E N S :
ON iiEH\LF OF THE THIRD RESPONDENT:'
ADV_J, BROWPK, S.C._ADV_._ d .aT' k u n y / sVc .ADV. J r STP > USS ADV. J.H.A. "MUNNIK
ADV. _P ,_A. HJvTTIMGH, S. <.!. ADV. J". C ,_J-^BUSCflAGNE ADV. B .W."BURMAN "ADV. J.J. WESSELS
ADV. J .H . COETZES, S .C. ADV. Q.~ PELSER
LUBBE RECORDINGS (J■ :,HANNESBURG) VOLUME ?3
(PAGES 1 713 to 1 731)
a
COURT RESUMES ON 1986.06.05:COURT; While we are waiting for the witness I might hand to Counsel the draft notes I have made of the observations during the screening of the video tapes. In due coure I would appreciate getting back a re-draft.COUNSEL: As it pleases, My Lord.MR HATTINGH: I can inform Your Lordship that we have now got the photographs that were taken at the inspection in loco and my Junior, Mr Berman, is busy doing what Your Lordship
*requested. (10)COURT: Correllating them? Thank you, Mr Hattingh.INTERPRETER AT THIS STAGS WILL BE MR RALENALA.STELLA MORAKELE: S.u .O .CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS; My Lord, I have a map here of Muniseville. I trust My Learned Friend has a copy for Your Lordship. I will refer to it.COURT: Yes, should this be 'given an exhibit number? I would not ...R WESSELS: My Lord, we are going to refer to the location of
certain places. (20)COURT; Yes, it should become part of the record.MR WESSELS; I think perhaps it should.COURT; EXHIBIT 25 was the aerial photograph. EXHIBIT 26.Is the witness able to understand the map?MR WESSELS; Perhaps I should explain the map to the witness first, My Lord.COURT; Can you just start again v/hen we stop rustling.MR WESSELS; Mrs Morakele, to look at the map, it says "Munsieville Location" on top? -- Yes, I see that.
The top is the north. Now, you live in Dalinyebo Stx-eet, (30)which/
C67.0 - 1 713 - MORAKELE
which is' the street just to the right of that open park in themiddle of the township. — Yes.
Do you have it ? — I have gpt it.And your house is number 799. Is that so? -- I point out
at 799, My Lord.That is between Stokvel Streets and Sampato Str et? —
Yes.Now, you told us that if you stood in your yard, facing
the street, the tyres were burning in the street, approximately four or five houses away from you towards the left? -- That is (10 correct.
That is in the vicinity of Keiskamma Street. Would that be correct? -- Yes, that is correct.
Now, Pule Tsholetsane, the previous witness, do you know him? — Yes, I know him.
He testified that there were tyres burning at the intersection of Amatola and Dalinyebo Street. — Well, it is still the same.
Are you saying the tyres that were burning there, are the same ones that you referred to, that you saw burning? — It (20) was in that vicinity.
All right. Now, the bus that was burning, where was that approximately? -- It is up the street, but as I went out, according to the smoke, it was on the left hand side.COURT: Can she just point on the map where she thinks it was?— It is somewhere up the street, but this side, more to the left, My Lord.
You say it is towards the northern side of what appears to be a large open area? -- It was a distance away, My Lord.I am not certain whether I am pointing correctly. (30)
C67.4 - 1 714 - MORAKELE
MR WESSELS; All right, that is sufficient. If you look towards where the bus was burning, you would also see the tyres burning? -- What tyres?
The tyres that were burning in the street. -- Well, those tyres were nearby.COURT: Yes, but Counsel is saying to you, if you looked at the tyres, you were looking in the same direction as where the bus was burning? Yes, those you could see, but not the tyres of the bus.MR WESSELS; Yes, all right. Mrs Morakele, would it then be (10 correct to say that before the police arrived, you knew of both the tyres that were burning in the street, as well as of the bus that was burning further on? -- Well, that is correct.As I went out, I discovered that the tyres, as well as the bus, were burning.
Yes, all right, and where did the police come from? Did they come from your right or from your left? -- From the right.
From the right? From the opposite side than the tyres and the bus? -- Well, they came along the street from the . right hand side, but from somewhere at the bottom. I do not (20 know where. Down.
And there were no police at the scene of the tyres? —There were no police.
Yes, and were there any other groups in the street, apart from the group that had gathered in front of your house? —There were many people along that Dalinyebo Street, as well as towards to the left, as well as on the right hand side. There were a lot of people.
Were there many groups, both towards your left and towards your right? -- They were not in groups, but these (30)
people/
3C67.6 - 1 715 - MORAKELE
people were just walking, in different direction.Now, was the group in front of your house the only grout,
in that area? -- That is correct. There were a lot in that group which was in front of my yard, but in the street .
Now, can you tell me, why did Lite people gather .in front of your house, which is some distance away from the tyres? -- Well, according to me they were going up.
Going up where? --- Going up the street.•Were they walking towards where the tyres were? -- Yes.So, they were not standing in front of your property?
Now, as they were going up to have a look at the bus, they came in group-group, 01: in groups, going up the street .
They were not standing in front of your house? -- Well, <” very few were standing in front of my yard.
I see. Now, when this police vehicle stopped, could you see or hear whether' one of the policemen spoke from inside th*‘ cab to the peopli that were at that stage in front of your house? — Well, I only saw him talking to !hem, but I did not beer whatever he was saying to them.COURT: Was he talking from the van or did he get out of the * van? -- Yes, he got out of the van.
The question was, did you hear the policeman talking fro"1 inside the van to the people? — No, he hed got out when he spoke to them, My Lord.
And at that stage the people were making a big noise you said yesterday? -- Yes, there was noise in the street.
Yes, I take it they were very excited then as well? 1 do not know whether they were excited or not, or they we re talking to him in a normal way.
Talking to whom in a normal way? — The policeman. I
Well, did any of the people speak to the policemen? —
Well, did any of the people speak to the policeman? — A tall.
Black man is the person who was talking to the policeman. The
policeman was trying to assault that Black man.
Well, when was that? — That is after t . i policeman got
out, as they were talking to him.
Well, who is "they"? — The people who were standing
there? — Did the people speak to the policeman when he got
out of the van? — Well, the policeman spoke first and then they replied or answered him. (3.0)
And did you hear what any of those people ox- the
policeman said? — No, I could not hear it.
Not at a •1? — Hot at all.
Was that because of the noise that people ware making in
the street? -- That is correct.
And '-/hat caused the people to make this noise? — They
were surprised for the bus or they were surprised because of the bus.
Of the bus? -- Yes, .they ware surprised when the bus was
burning. (20)
But now, why did they, at this distance away from the
bus, make this noise? I do not follow that? I do not know.
All right. Now, whan the police spoke to the people and
the people spoke to him, did you get the impression that they
were aggressive? — Well, originally, when the policeman spoke
to them, he was polite towards them, but ultimately ha ended
up being aggressive towards the people„
And why would you nay, why did he hecome 9 gr 0 s s i v© i
What caused him to become aggressive? That 1 do not know
what made him to do that. (30)All/
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C67.12 - 1 717 ~ MORAKELE
C67.15 ~ 1 718 - MORAKELEAll right, what was the attitude of the people when this
policeman spoke politely to them? -- Well, I do not know. I do not know what made them angry.COURT: How did the policeman assault the tall man? -- Well, when the policeman got out of the police van he had a shambock with him. So, he hit or assaulted the man with the shambock.
Did he have the shambock with him when he got out of the van the first time? — Well, I did not see that, or I do not know about it, but when he assaulted him, I saw that he had a shambock with him. (I1-*
Was that the first time that you saw the shambock? —Yes, well, Mrs Morakele, that is contrary to your evidence yesterday. Yesterday you told us that he had first spoken to the people. Then he went back to the van to get the shambock.I ant referring to the second page of the transcript. Yes,
that is what he did, but now, the problem was wi'.h the Interpreter isterday. I could not understand him in Tswana.MR WESSELS; Mrs Morakele ... — But this is what he did.
What did he do? What is right? Did he go to the van to get the shambock or did you only observe it for the first time ( when he was assaulting the people? -- Yes, he got out, spoke to the people. After speaking to the people 1 5 went bat-.k to the police van and then took the shambock.
I see. Well, that is precisely what you said yesterday?-- From there, that is whore most of the people were able to run away.
Well, Mrs Morakele, I am putting to you, that is precisely what you said yesterday. -- Yes.
So, why do yci >ay that you did not understand the Interpreter yesterday? — Well, the Tswana spoken by the other
Interpreter/
Interpreter, I would say, we were not talking the same Tswana or the same language.
Do you understand the language this Interpreter is talking? -- Yes, this one I do understand.
Well, I do not know why do you say today that, first, that you saw the shambock for the first time when he was assaulting the people. Now you change over again to saying the oliceman went back to the van to get the shambock, as you testified yesterday? -- Well, as I have explained that my language yesterday, together with yesterday's Interpreter, was (10) not the same or alike.
Oh, I see. Mrs Morakele, just tell me this: Have you worked? -- No, not employed.
Have you worked in the past? — Yes, I was.At what? — I was a tea girl, My Lord, at Bonanza.Is that a c ^npany? -- It is a shop.It is a shop? And did you speak English there? — Yes,
we spoke English or Afrikaans.Do you understand English? — Not very much.What standard did you obtain at school? -- Well, I went (20)
as far as Std. 5. I did not proceed with Std. 5.I got the impression that even sometime before the
Interpreter have interpreted my question to you, you start answering. You seem to understand my English. Is that correct? — I do not know. I am j ist replying.
I want to read to you your evidence yesterday. In your evidence-in-chief, My Lord, on page 2, the same portion I referred to previously, your Counsel asked you:
"Now, what happened next?"And the answer that was given was: (30)
"The/
7C67.18 - 1 719 - MORAKELE
"The one who had been talking to the people, as soon as he stopped talking, the people dispersed and he went back to the van and to' k out a shambock. 51
COUitT; Perhaps the Interpreter should have a copy of the ...I have a spare copy. Mr Interpreter, I have marked the passage.INTERPRETER: Thank you, My Lord.WITNESS ; My Lord, when he went back to fetch the shambock, I think some of the people, they observed him, they noticed him that he was now going to assault them. That is why 'some (10)dispersed and then there were few who remained.HR WESSELS; I see. But this evidence chat you gave yesterday, was that c o m tly interpreter?COURT: Well, she already confirmed that was whathappened, did she not?MR WEASELS; I beg Your Lordship's pardon?COURT: I thought she already confirmed today, at least twice or three times, that that is what she said and that that was what was correct.MR WESSELS: No, My Lord, not as it stands here. Yesterday (20) when this was interpreted, it was correctly interpreted, was it not? Yesterday?
Yes.COURT: What Counsel is asking you, is -hat stands here correct? Is that what you said yesterday? -- That is correct.My Lord.
Now, tod y you cay that some people dispersed and others did not? — PeopLe are not the same. So, there we•e some who decided to disperse, or to run away, but some remained in order to see what was going to happ t. (30)
Mr/
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C67.22 - 1 721 - MORAKELEMR WESS: r,S: Well, what I am putting to you, yesterday you didnot add the qualification of some people did not disperse.COURT: She did not deal with that yesterday.MR WESSELS: No, My Lord, she only said the people dispersed. COURT: But not at that point. 3he is now saying that, she is now adding something. That some people went, some people started dispersing -'hen the policeman went to get the shambock.MR WESSELS: That is correct, My Lord.COURT: It is neither consistent, nor inconsistent withanything she said yesterday. She did not deal with that (10)
yesterday.MR WEASELS: No, My Lord, but that is why I am putt.’ng to her that she did not say, qualify ...COURT: You are putting to her chat she is add:ng a qualification. It is rot a qualification. It is an additional piece of evidence, not a qualification.MR WESSELS: Well, as Your Lordship pleases.COURT: It is confusing to put it as a qualification when it
is not.MR WESSELS: As Your Lordship pleases. Mrs Morakele, so, (. 0) today you say that some of the people dispersed and others did
not disperse?COURT: Mr Wessels, why do you, she said it three times now.Why must she say it a fourth time?MR WESSELS: As Your Lordship pleases.COURT: Just get on with the cross-examination.MR WESSELS: As Your Lordship pleases. Mrs Morakele, when the policeman assaulted the people, did he assault one person or more than one person? — One person was thoroughly assftuli.ed by the policeman. lie could not reach at the other people. (30,
How/
9
C67.24 - 1 722 - MORAKELEHow did he assault this person? — Over his body. I do
not know how many times.More than once? — Yes, more than once.And this person that he assaulted, where did he run to? -
— He ran into my yard.Did he go into your house? — When he went to the back
yard.What did the policeman do with his firearm that he took
out at the door? — Well, he took out the firearm, tried to open the door, but he did not succeed. From there he walked (10 away from the door towards the back of the yard.
Well, show me precisely what you saw what he did with tbe firearm? — Well, he held the firearm, but he did not fire it.
Did he merely take it out of the holster and hold it in his hand? — That is correct. He took it out, but he 'id not fire.
Yes, did he point it in any direction? — Well, I do not know, seeing that he walked towards the back.COURT? While you could see him, did he point it at anybody? -— No, My Lord, he was just, the firearm was pointing or (20) facing towards wherever that person was going.MR WESSELS: I see. And that is all he did with the firearm?— Well, from there he walked back to the van and from the van he came out with something (the witness indicates the length of that object). I am not certain how long it was. My Lord, but something to what I am now indicating.COURT: About 18 inches.MR WESSELS: As Your Lordship pleases. Mrs Morakele, can youjust describe the shambock? — The length of that shambock ... COURT: About a metre long. (3°)
MR WESSELS: About a metre, My Lord. And how thick was it? - (The witness indicates.) The thickness is about the stand
of the microphone.The microphone stand?
COURT; Pardon? -- The stand of the microphone.MR WESSELS: The microphone stand.COURT; Yes, well, for the record it is about one and a half centimetres I would say.MR WESSELS: As Your Lordship pleases. And could it bend? -- Yes. (The witness indicates it is sort of flexible.) (10)
Now, Mrs Morakele, how did it come about that you made anr ’
affidavit in this case? -- How did it come?Yes, how did it come about? — Well, I went to our
representatives of the location.Who are they? -- Well, I went to one known to mo by the
name of Boy.Yes, and what sort of representative is he of you? —
Well, in fact, he was not my representative. He was just asking what happened yesterday.
Yes, and then, did you tell him? — That is correct. (20) And what happened then? — He then took a statement from
me .
Yes, and did you then make another statement at a later stage? — Well, there came, I think it is the police, who approached me.
I see. Did you not go to an attorney to make a statement?— Well, I went to an attorney. I got that attorney, because of Boy.
I see. Now, this Boy, you called him your representative at an earlier stage. — Yes, he is one of our representatives. (30)
If/
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c67.30 - 1 724 - MORAKELEIf you say "our", who are you referring to? — Well, he
is a representative of the people of the location. Anybody could go to him if he has got a complaint. So, that is why we call him our respresentative.COURT : Who appointed him? Who does he ... — I do not know,My Lord.
MR WbSSELS: IIow do you know that he is a representative of tne location? Seeing tnat he came co ine and asked me about what had happened.COURT; Did you not know before that he was involved as a (10)representative? -- I did not know, My Lord.MR WESSELS: What is his surname? -- I do not know his surname.I have just forgotten it.
Nov;, at the lawyer, did you make a statement there? -- Well, E >y took the statement with him.
With him? To him you mean? -- No, he took it along withhim.
Yes, and then? -- So, I think he is the person who can explain to Court where did he cake the statement to.
Well, did you sign a statement in front of a lawyer? (20) Yes, I did that.
And that statement had been typed? Yes, it was a typed statement.
My Lord, perhaps I should show the affidavit to the witness. It is page 223 of the applicants’ papers.COURT: Do you want her to see the original?MR WESSELS: It is not necessary, My Lord. She has signed it. COURT: But it may be as well if she just states whether this is her signature. Mrs Morakela, is that your signature on that affidavit? It is. My Lord. (30)
Mr/
C67.33 - 1 725 - MORAKELEMR WESSELS; And did you understand what you were signing here?— Yes, I did understand.
Did you read this statement? — Yes, I did read it, but now seeing that this thing took place long time ago, it is possible that I have forgotten about it.
Forgotten about what? — It is possible that there is something that I have forgotten about it.
Well, the st tement that you read, was that what you told Boy? — Yes.
And you were satisfied that whatever appeared in the (10) statement was correct? --- Yes, it was correct, because it was something that had happened at that stage.
Now, on page 224, paragraph 4, you say;"A bus and some tyres were burning a distance away from my house in the veld."
— Page 224?COURT; Page 224, page 2 of the affidavit, paragraph 4. Do you have it that it starts "a bus and some tyres were burning".
I have got it, My Lord. But where the bus was burning, it was a distance away from my house. (20)MR WESSELS; Yes, but you say the bus and the tyres were burning in the veld. — Well, I think they misunderstood me by saying the bus and the tyres. They thought raaybe by saying tyres, I meant the tyres of the bus. What actually happened is, there were some tyres burning not far from my house, but now, the bus was burning a distance away from my house.
Mrs Morakele, the point is, the tyres were not burning in the veld. They were burning in the street, in the middle of the street. — That is correct. The tyres were burning in the street. (30)
Well/
& . .... .... . __—
------------------------------------ .-II _JJ.tJI.L4.,,- ----- .---------------
13
C67.36 - 1 72 6 - MORAKELEWell, why is your affidavit wrong? -- Well, as I have
already mentioned to the Court, that this thing took place a
long time ago.Is your memory better today than what it was when you
made this affidavit? — Well, now, that is when that I remembered what had happened.
I beg your pardon? — I am talking of what I stillremember that took place.
You also, in this affidavit, did not tell or say that some people dispersed and others remained when the policeman (10 had spoken to them at the time when he returned to the van to get the shambock. — Well, what happened is, the policeman got off the van, spoke or addressed the people. After he had spoken to the people, he went back to the van and he came along with a shambock.
All right. — That is what I still remember.Do you know what a magazine of a pistol looks like?
Well, I do not know what it looks like.Do you know how it operates, how a pistol operates? -- I
do not know. (20)
Do you know where you put the bullet in? -- I do not know. You never saw a policeman put a magazine, loaded with
• bullets, into his service pistol? — I did not see that.Then why did it appear in your affidavit, paragraph 11 -
-- But what I explained her about, it was a firearm that, whilst he was knocking at the door, he had that firearm.COURT: No, but look, I do not want to hear the whole story again, Mrs Morakele. Just answer the question. If you look in paragraph 7 of your affidavit, you say:
"I remained standing in the front of my yard and saw the (30)policeman/
14
C67.40 - 1 727 - MORAXELEpoliceman enter my gate and as he was doing so, he put a magazine, loaded with bullets, into his service pistol."
Now, today you say you'did not see that. So, what Mr Wessels now ... Just listen, please. What Mr Wessels is asking you, why in the affidavit it says something which today you say you did not see? — I become confused, My Lord.
Can you explain this difference? -- Well, the difference.My Lord, is because I saw the policeman handling a teargas canister, My Lord. (The witness tries to indicate how it was done.) Something like that, My Lord. I call it, in fact, a (10)
tin.But the teargas has got nothing to do with putting
bullets in the gun, because if you look in your affidavit, in paragraph 8, that is where you deal with the teargas. Well,I become confused. My Lo.id. There w s a stage where he had had the firearm, but I did not te e notice of him, whether he was putting in something into the firearm or not, because personally I was also afraid of that firearm.MR WESSELS: All right. Tell me, during all this time, this whole incidence, were you in your front yard sweeping? Were (20 you at all stages in your front yard sweeping? — Yes.
So, this policeman must have walked past you at a very close distance? — Well, he did pass me by, but I did not take notice of whatever he was doing, but what I took notice was,he had the firearm in his hand.
But he did not pay any attention to you or did anything towards you? -- He did nothing to me. He did not even speak to me, but what I know is that he was after the people who ran
into my yard.And then he went to the back and you remained there in (30)
f r o n t /
15
C67.44 - 1 728 - MORAKELEfront sweeping? That is correct, I remained behind sweeping.
You did not follow -him to see what he was going to do? -— Well, I did follow him. That is after he had disappeared behind, I also went towards the back, but I could not see whatever he was doing.
Why could you not see what he was doing? Was he behind something? -- Well, it was deep behind. So, I remained more towards the front.
So, are you now saying that you did not see what he did at the back at all? — Yes, I did not see. (10)
Did you speak to Pule Tsholetsane about this incident? -— No, I did not.
Mrs Morakele, just tell me this aspect, do you know where Boy lives? --Yes, I know.
What is his address? -- I had just fox-gotten the number and the street, but I know the house.
Would it help you to show you the map? I can show you where your house is. — Well, if one is walking along Dalinyebo Street, then you have to turn to the left.
Well, have a look at the map, please, and tell us where (20) you turn left? -- I indicate, My Lord, here from 799, going upwards, that is towards the north, My Lord, there is 798.Now, there is an opening there, My Lord. I think it is ...COURT; Mabi Drive? Mabi Drive, My Lord. So, you g :> into that ;treet. That is you turn left into that street.
Yes?MR WESSELS: Yes, and then? Then you go down. So, as I indicate, My Lord, the house will be somewhere at Matibi Street and Mamogale Streets, just in that vicinity. Matibi Street is further down. My Lord. Mabi St aet ends somewhere (30)
at/
16
at Pilane Street and if one turns loft. My Lord, from Pilane towards, back towards Dalinyebo, then you come to the intersection of Matibi Street.
So, are you at the intersection of Pilane Street and M'tibi Street? — Well, you come down in Mabi Drive, but I am not so certain about the number.COURT: I do not think you are going to get much information this way, Mr Wessels.MR_WESiSELSMrs Morakele, I want to put to you that on this particular day there were many incidents of unrest in (10)Munsieville. -- All that I know is, during the time when the bus was burning, when people ran into my yard, that is all that I know. Well, I do not know about other days.
But on that day there were many incidents where obstructions were erected in the street, tyres burned?COURT: Do you know anything about that? — Well, all that I know is about the bus burning, My Lord.MR WESSELS; Did you know about ’he bus boycott? -- Yes, I knew about it.
The bus boycott started on that day. Is that correct? (20)— I do not know when it started.
Do you know whether the burning of the bus had anything to do with the commencement of the bus boycott? -- No, there was no connection between the two.
How do you know that? -- But at that stage the buses were still operating.
The person that you referred to as Boy, is he perhaps Boy Herman Bogopane? -- I do not know his surname.
Well, is he also known as Herman? -- Well, I am used to know him by the name Boy. (30)
And/
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C67.48 - 1 729 - MORAKELE
C67.57 - 1 731 - MOLEFEyears.
The evening of 3 January 1986, we know that a bus was burned that afternoon. — Well, unfortunately, I did not hear anything about it.
Did you hear subsequently that a bus was burned? I just want to establish how far away from your house that was. -- Well, I did hear about it and that bus was burning a distance away from my house.
How far away from your house? --- I do not know how to estimate here in court. There is a school and there is a (10) church, shops. I would say it was at the end of the location.
On the opposite side of the location to where you lived?— Yes.
Now, at about half past seven that evening, where were you? — I was seated in front of my own house.
Were you alone or were there people with you? — I was together with my children.
All four of them? -- Yes.Was anything happening in the street? — Well, there was
movement of people, but not the usual movement which I know. (20)Yes, were there more than the usual number of people on
the street? — That is correct.Did there appear to be some excitement? -- Yes.Do you know what it was about? — Well, I did not know at
that stage, but thereafter I knew. I then said, wel , it is because of the bus.
Were there any groups in front or near your house, groups of people? — There was no group of people near my house.
Were people walking or running in the street? -- That is correct. (30)
Were/
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C67.60 - 1 732 - MOLEFEWere they walking or running or walking and running? --
Some were running, some were walking.Yes, it was a slightly unusual scene. What happened then?
COURT: Perhaps it might be convenient to take the adjournment now, Mr Strauss.COURT ADJOURNS FOR TEA.
20
COURT RESUMES :
ELIZABETH MOLEFE (still under oath)
EXAMINATION BY MR STRAUSS (continued)
Mrs Molefe, you explained to us that you and your
children were sitting on the stoep? -- Yes*
What happened then? — Two police vans arrived, these
two vans they stopped at the corner of the street.
Is that in front of your house? -- In front of my house.
Yes? -- One policeman got out of the van.
COURT : I'm sorry, what was the number of the street? (10)
MR STRAUSS: My Lord it's 1370 Mahure Street, it borders
on the open area. .
COURT: Yes, I have it. 13 7..?
MR STRAUSS: "0".
COURT : Between which streets is it?
MR STRAUSS: Mahure and Mojewane My Lord. You say a police
man got out? -- Yes. He h-ad a firearm with him (witness
indicates length of firearm)
COURT: Show me? — I am not certain how long it was My
Lord but it's one of these long guns. (20)
MR STRAUSS: You indicated, just indicat-j again, approxi
mate 1 y .
COURT: About half a metre?
MR STRAUSS: Yes My Lord. And? -- Then the following thing
that happened is he fired a shot, and I then discovered that
whatever he had fired it was tear gas. We ran away.
Did you see in which direction he fired? Well that
is towards my yard.
Towards your yard? -- Yes.
And, what did you do? We ran away. (30)
COURT/
1 733 - MOLEFE1C .68
2C68.01 - 1 '734 - MOLEFE
COURT: Who is we? -- That's myself and my children My Lord.
MR STRAUSS: Where did you run to? -- We r an into the
house and closed the door.
Yes? -- Now we stayed in the house whilst the door was
closed and after a while we then heard noise outside as
though something was cracking, that is inside the house in
the bedrom. We got a fright, ran under the chairs and we
remained there, we were surprised. We then heard the noise
or the movement of the cars that now cars were leaving.
I went into my bedroom, I then discovered that those shots(10)
were directed to that bedroom window because there'were some
holes..
There were some? Holes.
COURT: Where were the holes? — On the window panes.
MR STRAUSS: Were there just holes through the windowpanos
or were the windows broken? -- Well the windowpanes cracked
and some other areas, in some other areas there were some
holes.
Yes? Did you look around to see what caused this?
-- Yes I looked around. When I looked around My Lord I (20)
discovered that there were some roundish things in the
house, if I could describe them they looked like marbles,
that is small marbles.
Now just slop there, just before you heard this cracking
that you spoke about could you hear whether anything was
going on outside? -- After we had heard that crack, when
we looked through the window, or peeped through the window
we noticed the police getting into the vans, then we heard
the vans, or the movement of the vans that the vans were
now driving away. (30)
Did/
3C68.04 - 1 735 - MOLEFE
Did you hear people talking, shouting or screaming out
side before the crack? — Yes after that tear gas shot we
heard people outside shouting and screaming.
Can you estimate the time lapse between the tear gas
and when the window broke? -- Well I am not so certain of
the estimation which I'm going to give, could be after two
or three minutes, that is after the shot had been fired and
the cracking which I heard.What was your emotional state at that stage? — I was
frightened and I was also surprised about the action (10)
done by the police because wherever we were seated we were
doing nothing and there were not a lot of people with us,
those who could have caused the police maybe to fire those
shots.I see, now some time.after this incident, about three
weeks you were woken up one evening? -- Yes.I want you to tell the Court about what happened? --
Well we were woken up by a sharp light, that is fro.n o i -
side. As I peeped thro\ jh the window outside there was
what we called paper bag, that is the vehicle driven by (20)
the soldiers of the army people and that sharp light was
from that paper bag.Where was it pointing? — Well it was pointing into
my house and then it seems there was somebody who was mani
pulating it in all directions and then back again to my
house. We got up and then these people who had what we call
paper bag My Lord were singing loudly..COURT: Who were these people, could you see. -- Soldiers
My Lord, army people. That is why we got up and then according to me these peopel had no right to come and make (30)
noise/
4C68 .09 - 1 736 - MOLEFE
noise at my house as we were asleep and also to light on my house in that manner because they disturbed us from sleeping, because from that time we .ould no longer sleep.
What time of the night was this? — I'm not certain about time, it could be between one and two in the morning My Lord.
And could you hear what they were singing? -- They were singing saying "Siyaya, siyaya", that is "we are going, we are going".MR STRAUSS: What language were they singing? — To me (10) it was Zulu language.
Now the "Siyaya, siyaya", have you heard that song before? -- Yes it's a song which has been sung by comrades.
Is it one of the so-called freedom songs? — Yes one of the freedom songs.
Mrs Molefe for about how long was this light shone into your house, can you estimate? -- Three to five minutes My Lord.
Was this the only incident where searchlights were shone into your house? — Well on another day they did shine a (20) light, but it wasn't in the same way as they did in the previous time.
Oh, what was different? — The difference was on the first day it appeared as though the vehicle was stationary but now the second occasion the vehicle was moving as they lit the light onto my house.
How did your children react to this army vehicle shining the light? -- They were frightened, very much. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS:
As Your Lordship pleases. Mrs Molefe what does (30)your/
5C68.10 - 1 737 - MOLEFE
your husband do? -- Well on that day or during that occasion
my husband had gone out on a trip, that is..
COURT: Had gone out..? — Gone out on a trip My Lord.
Are you talking about the day that the light was
shining or the day of the tear gas? — I am talking about
the day of the tear gas My Lord.MR WESSELS : What was your husband’s occupation at the time?
-- Delivering of vehicles.
Who is his employer? --- Avis.
Is he still employed by them? -- Yes he is still (10)
employed there.Mrs Molefe when did you hear the comrades sing freedom
songs? -- Many a time especially when they’ve <;jot meetings.
All right, so I take it you've attended these meetings
of the comrades, is that correct? — Yes.
Can you t 11 me which meetings these are, when and where
they were held? -- I remember the meetings was held at
Pentecostal Church.When was that? -- I cannot say when. I don't remember.
COURT: Well what year? -- This year My Lord. (20)
Can you remember the month? -- Towards the end of
February month.MR WESSELS: Yes, who spoke at that meeting? ~~ Satoh.
COURT: Hmm? -- S-a-t-c-h .MR WESSELS: Not really, I think it's S-e-r-g-e. Serge.
What's Serge's surname?COURT: Just ask if she knows his surname? •- No I don't
know the surname.MR WESSELS: Well do y u know what his position is in the
community? -- Well what I know is he is just a leaderof /
6C68.12 - 1 738 - MOLEFE
of meetings.
A leader at meetings, right who else spoke there? --
Well on that particular day he was the only person who
addressed.
Yes, what did he talk about? -- About school.
What did he say about school? -- Well he said we are
not going to resume school on the 8th, we are going to re
sume school on 28 February.
Mrs Molefe, that cannot be right surely, you told us
the meeting was towards the end of February? -- Yes I said(10)
towards, not the end.
Wasn't the schools supposed to start on 8 January? -
— Yes that is correct.
So wasn't this meeting held before the schools were
to recommence on 8 January? -- Well if I am not mistaken
the meeting was held on two or three occasions.
So there were two or three meetings? --Yes.
And where were all these meetings held? -- Well un
fortunately I only attended to one meeting of those meetings.
How do you know that two or three meetings were held(20)
to discuss lis? — It wasn't a secret, when people went
to the meeting we knew that there was a meeting held.
Well let's get back to the date of this meeting that
you attended? -- Yes.
Was this meeting held before the schools were to com
mence officially? -- Well the first mi ting was held 1efore
the schools commenced officially.
Is that the meeting you attended? -- No that was not
the meeting.
I see, yes when was the second meeting? (30)CO'IRT/
7C68.15 - 1 739 - MOLEFE
COURT: I'm getting a bit confused, how many of thes;;
meetings where school was discussed did you attend? -- Well
could I broaden my answer My Lord? What I know is that My
Lord Uffere was a meeting held and during that meeting it
was discussed that schools won't commence, or we are not
going to school on the Oth.
Now were you at that meeting? -- No I was not at that
meeting My Lord. And then there was another meeting which
was held when the students, that is the scholars from
Bophuthatswana were supposed to go back to school, now (10)
those studens were not supposed to go back to Bophuthatswana
or to leave, that is the meeting that I attended My Lord.
When Serge spoke? -- That is correct My Lord.
MR WESSELS: And when were -he schools in Bhophutatswana
to commence? — I am not certain about the date.
Wasn't it the same day as in this area here, on 3
January? -- No, you see most of the time either they commence
after the local schools have commenced or they commence be
fore the local schools commence.
Do you have children at school? -- Yes. (20)
How many? -- All four children are at school.
Where are they at school? -- Here in Munsieville.
All four of them?-- Yes.
Do you have any person connected to you that is at
school in Bhophutatswana? — No but what happened is we
asked, seeing that we had heard that they were not supposed
to leave for Bhophutatswana.
Yes but why was it your ocncern? -- Well I've got
children of iy relatives who are attending school in
8C 6 8 . 1 8 - 1 7 4 0 - MOLEFE
But they didn't concern you? — Well it concerned me because I was helping them, assisting them either financially or so.COURT: Where were they living, in Bhophutatswana or in Munsieville? -- Well I had one My Lord who had paid a visit to me.
And was that one with you on the day of the meeting?— That is correct My Lord.MR WESSELS: Did you attend any of the meetings held in regard to the local schools? — Well that was the only (10) meeting I attended.
Yes, why didn't you attend the meetings in regard to the local schools? — Well it was not possible for rr.-s to attend.
Why not? — Well due to some commitments like for instance I am a lady so it does happen that in the house one is committed to some other household things and then you are unable to attend the meetings.
Yes, Mrs Molefe, who are the comrades? -- I cannot explain who are the comrades. (20)
Well you've told us that the comrades sang at this meeting, or they sing at meetings? -- That is correct when they come from the meetings they do walk past my house singing.
Do you not know who or what they are? -- Well I wouldn't explain further than that but I only heard that these are the comrades.
Well what is the understanding in the area where you live, what do the comrades do? -- What I know about them,I noticed at one stage that they were carrying knives (30)
9C68.20 - 1 741 -
and some dangerous weapons.
Like what, just tell me before you go on, what other
dangerous wnapons were they carrying? -- Wires, (witness
tries to explain), pieces of wires and some other things
which might be used to assault other people, but those things
are dangerous. Now you see all these things as I say they
are carrying them, these are the things which they had
brought them together or collected them together. Having
taken these dangerous weapons from what I would call "tsotsis"
Just tell me before you go on, how do you know (10)
that they have taken these dangerous weapons from "tsotsis"?
-- Well according to what I think dangerous weapons like
knives are being carried by "tsotsis".
Well how do you know the comrades don't carry thorn
themselves? ~~ Well I don't deny that', that they don't
carry them, but I have never seen them carry th^m.
COURT: What I think Counsel is trying to find out is
where did you see them carrying these weapons? -- I saw them
passing My Lord in the street.
But how did you know they took them from anybody, (20)
why didn't you think well those belong to those comrades?
— Well it was explained to My Lord that they had taken
these from other people.
Who explained that to you? -- One of them explained
this to me My Lord because I was standing there and I was
surprised and then I asked "but what are you carrying".
MR WESSELS: On how many occasions have you seen the
comrades carrying these weapons? -- It was just on that
o n as ion .
I see, how do you know he was a comrade? --- Well (30)
the/
10C68.22 - 1 74 2 -
the thing is I often saw them singing from, or coming from
their meetings.
Have you attended any of the comrades' meetings? --No.
Don't you know what the comrades do apart from this
one that told you that they took the dangerous weapons from
"tsotsis"- -- Well another thing that I personally know that
they do, they punish silly people, people like those who
gamble in the streets and those who drink, they are being
punished by them My Lord. (10)
Mow do they punish them? -- Well if they find these
youngsters, especially these young girls drinking, then they
threaten these young girls to leave that drinking place by
either assaulting them or by telling them to leave.
And I take it you have seen this yourself? --- Yes I
did witness that.
Mrs Molefe isn't the position that the comrades are
actually ruling Munsieville? As far as you people are con
cerned? -- What do you mean by ruling.
If they tell you what to do, you do it? -- Do you (20)
mean in other words they coercing us or forcing us to do
t h a t ?
Yes? -- No to me it has never happened, they never did
that to me.
Yes all right, but it has happened Lo other people?
-- You see to testify about something that had happened to
somebody else it's very difficult.
COURT : I think what Mr Wessels is trying to find out,
are you and are other people in Munsieville frightened of
the comrades? -- No we are not afraid of the comrades My (30)
Lord/
Collection Number: AK2145 KRUGERSDORP RESIDENTS’ ORGANISATION AND 4 OTHERS v. THE MINISTER OF LAW AND ORDER AND 2 OTHERS 1986 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012
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