University of I llinois at Springfield

Norr is L Brookens Library

Archives/ Special Collect ions

I llinois Const itut ional Convent ion

Mem oir

IL62. Illinois Constitutional Convention Memoir, 1969-70 Interviews and memoirs 17 hrs., 25 mins., 4 vols., 465 pp.

Narrators discuss the 1969-70 Illinois Constitutional Convention, changes made in relation to the 1870 state constitution, issues addressed, the adoption of the new constitution in 1970, and its successful and unsuccessful measures.

Interviews by Cullom Davis, Kim Hoffmann, Marilyn Huff and Timothy J. Jones, 1987 OPEN; Fay and Scott sections RESTRICTED See collateral file: participants list of the 1969 Illinois Constitutional Convention

Archives/ Special Collect ions LI B 144

University of I llinois at Springfield

One University Plaza, MS BRK 140

Springfield I L 62703-5407

© 1987, University of I llinois Board of Trustees

Preface

W mumscript is the product of a series of tape rscorded irrtervi- cmdwted by G. Cullcan Davis; Kirn Hof-; Marilyn Huff; and Thothy J. Jones for the Oral History O f f i c e , Sangmnrm State Wniversity be- % p t E m b r 17-19, 1987. F3ZUId.e =ibed the tapes. Linaa S. Jett a r d ~ i m t h y J. Junes editedthe tmmmipts.

RBaders of the oral history mmir should bear in mind that it is a transr=ript of the spkm word, and that .the intemiewer, narrator and editor sought to the informal, cammati& wle that is inherant in such hstorid scumes. Sangamn State Uhivemity is not mspmible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The rmmscript may be m, quoted arrd cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any nwns, electronic or mechanical, w i t h a t pmhsfm in writing f r o m the Oral History office, Sarmgamon State University, Sprltrrsfield, Illinois 62794-9243.

Preface

-of t h e o r a l h i s t o r y ~ i r s h c r u l d h a r i n ~ t h a t it i s a transcript of the spoken wwd, & that the intewiemr, narrator and editor sought to preseme the informal, -tianal wle that is

in suc31 historical -. Saqamm State univtxsity is not respansible for the factual accuracy of the mmir, nor for views qpessd therein; these me for the reader t o judge.

The mawscript m y be read, qwted 2u-d cited f m y . It may not be reproduced in wfiole or in part by arry means, eledxmic or without m s s i o n in w1:itu-g £ m m the Oral History Office, sangarm State Univwsity, Sprinsfield, Illinois 62794-9243.

A: I t h h k t h e r . w o r e m q . A n d I t h M c w a a r e h e a r ~ t h a t a t a u little mmwaning. I think there have laen a lot of problem whora the state has failed to implennent the desire of the writers and the drafters of the cmstituticn. W e were talking state f imdhq Md public edumtion and har the state has not fulfilled its obligation to asare primary respcnsibility to finance the public schools. I think that wwld be at the of list of disa h t m m t s

PP" . And I ' m Whq a l l kir& of others. I think of a 1 ttle nmre minor nature, but I think them have been . . . Q: For instance,

A: Oh, the Bill of Rights. Haw the Ihzman Rights -ion hasn't worm to i m p l m t the m l l e d rights of the new cons;t:ituticn. Ihe failure to fully fund the judiciq. FTirrrarily, I

John Alexander 2

think, I m f t a y i t w a s n - i - e f f e c o l - p a r t o f t h e 1 islatureorthe~,butinsanewaysandinsarrreregalcds, they fa "S l ed to implen-mt the m a n i q of tha cons3titution.

A: CXI, IthFnkwholesaLedmngesareneededandIthinktheywere needed in 1970. We didn't pruvide the voters an opprtunity to laok at then. I hold a minority viewpint that the new 1970 Cunstitutim is basiczilly the 1870 Constitution in df T- * ?he n€!w ccolstitution is rwt that dif f m t frcan the 1870 Const tution. I thinlr the basic fmmwork of Illinois govemmmt in its entirety is not very so l id . I ~ t h e s t a t e h a s d e c l P n s d h i n r p o ~ a s a s t a t e s i n c e 1 9 7 0 i n manyways. I f m h a d t o r a ~ t h e s ~ t e s m a ~ p o l e ~ a n d m , I thhJc in 1970 people thrJught of I l lh i s right up there after New York ard California as an inportant atate in the United States. I think taday, semkea years later, I thhk pecrple would probably not rate Illinois as highly as inrportant of a state ncrw as it was lAen Ear a variety of -. of whi& may be traced to the ccmstitution.

Q: What d d be done to rectify that?

A: Qh, I think w lot of t h h g ~ fmn nry point of view. I think there are too nrvly statewide elected officials for one thEng. I don't think I l l h i s in tbs executive branch, speaks with the single pamrful voice, a strong gcmmmr as does the -the branch of other states.

Q: You would like to see those wnstituticmal officers apphted?

A: Well, I think adxhbtmtive officers should be af?pointed and basically we are elect- ~ s ~ t i v e officers. We are elect- people to adminis* the driver's li- law. We call hira the secmtmy of state, but h i c a l l 7 he is mt a policymaker, he sinply passres out license plates accordYrg to the law. Ard I a an argLrmant: mild b raade that yau don't elect admhhtmtive affioers, yaz elect policymakeu9. We didn't really ccpne to grips with the whale subject of a divided executive bmx& at the c o 5 n r d o n .

A: Oh, yes. And I thMc the theory at the ment:imr was, llLetls not put wether a v q cmtmwmial doclrmanrt because the voters might reject it. Let's put together smwthbq that the wkzs will acoept.I1 So, a lot of the contrwersial i t e m s of the day were not put before the public for their approval or disapprcIval.

Q: There were more issues on the side of that?

A: Yes, tkm-eweremreissuersmtheside. Theyweredemmitobe t o o ~ i a l b y t h s m a j ~ r i t y ~ T d e l ~ t e s t o b a S n c J . u d s d F n t h e padcage. I t h M r ~ t w a s ~ m c R l r p a r t t a ~ ~ y s u t n n i t s c r m s

that p m l y , had they been inserted h tha main packget it wouldhavestill carried. WewantedtoseparslteaqdAdngthoughtto

A: Ch, I think so, I tMnk of the districts had that b e e n i n c l u d e d i n ~ d o c u m s n t ~ t h a n v a t e d o n s e p a r a W y probably d d have passed in 1970 rather thatl by c i t i z e n initiative &anre five or t a yeus later.

Q: If the electim were held today, U d yau vate to d l a new cornrention?

A: I d . Sure, I think people should have a f r q u a t opportunity to update their state charter. I don't have the feeling that we w e r e a n o i n t e d b y G a d t o w r i t e a ~ c r e d ~ t h a t s h o u l d n w e r b e renrierwed. I think people should look a t the charter acmsicolaly and there are people in the state who1 s qualified or msre qualified than wewereasagroupof 1 1 6 d e l e g a t e s t o w r i t e ~ a s g o o d o r better.

A: Idonvt th inkthe~arereadyforacmnrent ion . Idon ' t think they u r d e r s t a d that. A l q we have a relatively naw dammt, itvs not a very modem me. I think they feel like the job waa done in 1970 and we p-ly dmlt need t o t2Lke a ladk at it yet.

A: No. N c n e that I see on the horizon. That doesnlt mem that a major crisis or two couldn't W e l a p in the next six or nine months andhave aprettybigkarirrg mthsvote to call a m e n t i o n b'l-%b~~ U d that be? N- Of 1988, I b e l i z w ~ .

Q: No, I think that is the th. ThAn do yau think that the twmky-y~err reconsideration provision was a good idet? Where you for it at the time?

A: Y e a , I sure was.

A: I thinkthatls about right. Ard I imagine twmtyyears f m ncrw there will pmhbly be more s e n t m b a look at the ccmtitutim than t h a is today.

A: Idca'tknuwthattherewere two or t h ~ e or f c ~ l r issues iqmtmt t ony ~ t i t w n c y . I & ny d l t u m q like a l l the others basically said, ''It ' s been a h m h d years shoe rn had a ~ t o v c r t e o r ' to replace this con~tikxtirn.~ Ewuse m. In 1920 there was =ion that it didn't pmdwe a vpql satisfying d m t , and it was rejected* So, let me arnard that to say that for fifty yeeu-s the people hadn't had a chance to vote m a newdocunwnt:andtheywar#~for th@opportu;ni . ty . 1thhk-t theyweretel l ingmeandtel l irrga~andfif teenotherpeople was, "Clean up this so-call~ horse and buggy cmlstitutim that's holding I l lh i s back arrd give us sumthiq lnodern ard uqz*to-date, 8~11k~mng te can US8 to grcrw."

Q: You were on three amittees?

A: Yes, really I was just kjnd of a tmubleshoubr for the presiderrt. H e assigned aaa of the vice presidents to work w i t h and seme as kind of a lwwn with two or three cadttees. So, I didn't spend fu l l t hWi th2~ lyonso f those th r s s . I w e n t f r c a n ~ o r t h s o t h e r

on, yau W, the issues of the day.

A: a, I think in temts of the &haition Article, the challenge to the state which they have not mst to prwide the prhmq furding for slools was we Prabably o m of ny big disappohtmnk was that they have rwt dam it.

A: I don't recall anythhg extramly significant to tsll you the t ru th an the Suffrage Camittee. I'm not; say- we didn't do scare minor things, h t I would say major happened.

A: I think the Legislative Carmnj.ttee =re than mything else failed to tab a god hard loak at the legislature, Again, there w e r e wane r a i n o r ~ d c m e l i k e m a k i r r g t h e h o u s e a n d ~ e ~ t e ~ ~ ~ lhat was i m p r t a r r t . But we didn't really give the public a = vote an &ler legislature. We had one of the lmpst in the nation at the the. We didn't have the nerve to put elimination of curmlative Wing, v h i d no one W t c d at the tine! in the main padcage. We -fled that of I to the side where it failed.

Q: Did yau have ideas before the corrvention started about how ycu ware going to l h up insofar as sectional differences, party differmces, preameived nations about what would haFrpsn?

Jahn Alexander 5

A: No, I don't think anyb&y really had any -imxx with crmstitutim dm-. It was a new v i e m e w i t h all of us. I cmne in w i t h a lot of ideas. I had been an instructor who taught govemmt for two years prim to the convmtim. I wrked on the staff of ths legislature for a year. I certainly came w i t h sme p r e c c l x s c r e i v e d ~ a n s a b o u t ~ I ~ t n e e d e d t o b e d c m e , but1 didn't cclme with any -ved notians abwtt huw partisan the cawmtim wald be or hcrw bitter the rivalries might be up state, dcrwn h t e , big ciw, -1 city, wha-.

Q: What are your least satisfuing n i e s ?

A: W e l l , I hate to be so shple, but I wmld say ny least satisfy- Emm!y is the enrtim documnt.

Q: Yau didn't sign i t?

A: Ch, I signed it. I siw itwhfch at the tlme was an M a t i o n that I had been in a- and participated i n the drafting of the dowmnt. A t the the I signed it, I lmew that I was going to approve its ratifiatim. But I think we blew a golden ly. I think we had a cnce in a lifetime chance to really g e t e m f i e reform to Illhis s a b g m a m m t and we missed the chance.

A: Well, I think the t h w i l l the citizens w i l l take another look, but I dcatt think that t h is lin th,e foreseeable future, ~ O r t U M t e l y . I think Illinois has, as I said, declined in

as a state. I think there's been a big failure an .the part z g w e n r m e n t to pmvide leademhip Can- that period of decline for a variety of reasam. I think that people in 11linois s h o u l d b t t e r r e c o g n i z e i f ~ i s a l i n k b e t w m a t h e p r t h m a n d p o l i t i d arena in Illinois and to antiquated strucbne of w t in Illjnois to solve the p m b l ~ that desperately needs solvmg.

Q: YautalkedzbuttheEitructuraLpmblemsbefore. Doyuuwantb go into that a little bit?

A: W e l l , again, I think the mtim that a split execLxtive is a problem. ~the l eg i s l a tu rehasbeen rwi sed in l a rgep r tby the citizen's initiative. But I think having lived out of Illhis for ~ f i r s t t i m e e v e r i n r ~ y ~ m m r y , whereasaywngboypriortothe ageofsix, Iwafianthemstcoast . Rrtforthefixsttirreinmy nmmxy, 1 ~ v e h e n i n a s t a t e ~ I a x l d l o o k a t a n o t h e r s t . a t e . I've h e n in mbrado a few years and I think Colorado politics is cleaner, less partisan, rmre modem, nmre -ined, mre of ''IEt's pull tqemec far the good of the state and grcrw.'' I think Illinois teast to get bogged dawn in nut problem ~ l v i n g , but e i s a n finger pointing as ccnnpared to Colorado, far ample.

Jahn Al- 6

Q: Thank you. Itis hen a good irrterview.

Ehd of side One, Tape One

Preface

m-ipt kthepruductof aseriesof bpemcozd&inbrviews cm3uckd by G. Cullan Davis; Kim IIof&arm; Marilyn M f ; and Timothy J. Jones for the Ordl History Offi-, smgamcm Stata uni-ity between September 17-19, 1987. Francie Gtsgg. transcribes the taw. Lhkh S. Jett atd ~imathy J. Jcaes editedthe transcripts.

William R. m s born in on AUgllEft 4, 1930. A -ibsnC o f e h e mqmsm&d the 4 3 n i D i s t r i c t at the I l lh i s Cmstitu-tianal Qonnrention. m. rsewed rn the ~eneral GwenrmesYt: and Public Informatim CoPmnitkes.

-of theoralhistoynemirshcruldbeminmindthatitisa -ipt of the spoka word, a n l t h a t the hrkmi-, narrator and +tor sought to preserve the informal, conversatimil swle that is Ylhesent in such historical scnrss. Sampmn state University is not re;sponshle for the factual aa=uracq of the memoir, nor for v i w messed therein; these are for the reader to j w .

The nmwmipt may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any reanst electrrmic or mechanical, w i t h o u t parmission in wriw fmp. Wm O r a l History Office, Sangzmrm S a t e University, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243.

William R. Zmtstraq, springfield, Illinois, Septeanber 18, 1987.

Q: Mr. zmmtrmq, what would yau say wem the major specific achievmmts of the 1970 Ocnstitution?

A: W i t h o u t going intm specifics, I think the najor a c c c ~ l l p l i ~ of the cc~lstitution was making it adaptable and flexible to the t k and t o t h e r a e e d s o f t h e ~ c u l a r t i m e p e r i o d . I t k i n k f r c a n t h @ viewpirrt of specifics, I think there are arry rarmber of thirvgs that ycrucmldaryuethatwere~ ib le for that . I t h i n k r e m u v i n g ~ of the restrlctions in the old mnstitution allwed the new constitution to be flexible where the old constitution wasn't . I think with arry constitution, you kmw, you t m d as delegates to becaw legislators more than writers of mtitut ims. I think, perhaps, we were guilty of that to sclnve actent, too. But, I think, by and large, the fmremrk of the omstihrtion is such Ulat it is adaptable,

Q: Y e s . Specif i d l y in what areas?

A: Okay. Specifically, I think mweml things occur&. Nmbr one, I l3hk yau removed specific items such as the Columbian m i t i o n and that. I think that helped. I think in the - of d m t i m , of mwse, ~ c ; h t a x e w a s c m e o f t h e m n r e d r z r m a t i c ~ o f t h e constitution. I think you gave the to the educational m. 1 2 u a n o t S o g u r e h c r w ~ l i t ~ ~ , m1tkinkycnlgavethe equipnerrt to it myway that so naarry paple of that g i m tine thought was hpmhnt. So, I thhk ths -tian Article, w31ich d t t e d the &ate of Illhis to s a ~ ~ arrd ths creatim of a state school bard. Those wvme hnpxhh innaMticms. I think also the amnittee that I was on dealt with the-at a t time--a very significant issue, which WEIS the errvi rammbl question. I think the cmstitution, in that m, while it reflected the t i r e s of the 1970rs, put into motion t h e ~ ~ ~ t y a u C C U l d u s e t o h a n d l e t h e ~ l ~ i n t h a t geraeralarea. 1 t h i n k ~ w e r e t W o i . l r r p o ~ t c h a r r g e s .

A: W e l l , an area a t I think I k m w a little bi t about, the area of educatim. I think the shortccanings perhaps were in those - areas thatm~twereimportarrttoinrplfov~~tirnin.the&teof Illinois. l h m b r me: I am not aac t l y sure whose responsibility fLtndingmsardtowhatextent. Atthegiventheof the ccmtitution, there wem delegates who wanted fb&mmblly the state to assume full Aulding. That mm't accmplishd. And so I think as acmsqwme, the t e rmi t se l f , a s t o h Q W m u c h t h e s t a t e ~ i s k i n d of nebulaus. I thinkthat has ~ 3 x 1 addressedbecause, I think,

William Armstrong 2

A: Frcan what I understand is that it is being used to legislate ratherthanbehgusedperhapstodeleteortomah~~rrectims~ which I think at that particular time, the intent mw-well, I shouldntt say, I h t t h o w . It seears to me the intent was tbat it was just sinply a means vhzm4y you can correct prabl- that cut of a b i l l , bett: I think it's bean used to do nauA~ nore that.

Q: If the 8lBction w e e held today, wuuld yau vate to d l a new crmstitutimal camention?

Q: And yau - for it? A: I was for it, yes.

W i l l i a m &mstmq 3

Q: Wbuld you explain a little about wfiat happmd?

Q: What do yau think w i l l h a p with the -tory veto?

A: Oh, I &It knew. Kim, I wouldn't am^ speculab. I think it dependsonhcrwthebueishmdled. IthfnkitdEypendsagrezltdeal on, like for exanrple, the calling of the federal constitutiondl ment ion . I =, there's a s m mwmnt in scm circles for that. So, I suppse natch is going to &p-d on puAicular feelings, y a u ~ , i fthemhaheatedissue, Wmthevotersmightgoa particular way, 3rut I couldn't evm speculate on it.

Q: You don't forsee arry issues that W d bring that abart?

A: Bring. . .

A: No, I don't. YQU can't h e c mne s h a h ny head? Can you? No.

A: Oh, well, if you want to ta lk about the most satisfying, I suppose itwaswmkingwithagrarpofwhat I ccmsideredtobevery, very talerrted individuals td~o I think by and in 1-1, a l l of us had aur crwn particular hterest in life. We had the arerall hterest of writirq a cmstiWian or a docurrvesrt for all of the people of the state. That's satisfyirq you work w i t h people, I think, of that caliber. I can't redly a of arrythixrg that wmdd be least satisfy* fmm my point of view. I think most people who were in the convention other than maybe a couple h x n pl& -a l a s t

that "I can't support .Uns &ummt.I1 I think by and in laxye, mst people felt that W e they didn't ge t erveqthhg maybe t h a t t h q ~ t w a s i m p o r t a n t , theydidgetmwghsothatthe constitutian works. The pnmess of g a e m m t is cmpmise.

Q: Ycru - with the genmd gcrvemment:?

A: mat 's correct.

Q: And mat m your big issues?

A: I suppose the big ~ 4 1 , first of all, they -It really big hues, but we atteJrp3ted to do, I think, kind of a gleaning of the constitutim. Our camnittee was given a lot of mspmsibilities dmg

that line. C)ur CQBmnittee w a s also b a s i d l y -file in the area of b- banking and I2-e ban- issue and the envhmmmtd article. So, I think those articles- cmkmersial. Wrhaps t h e m r e c ~ n s t r w e r s i a l m e w a s t h e ~ i ~ , w b i c % r s e e m t O b e a perennial issue in lagisla- in Illinnis.

Q: Arythins else?

A: No.

Q: Okay. This -1- our intewk. lhankyau.

A: Thank you, Kim. Yau have a good year.

Preface

Thismanwmipt isthepmfiwtof a series oftape recorded irrtewiews c x m h c h d by G. Cullcan D W ~ ; Kim Hof&rann; Marilyn Huff; arrd Thwthy J. Jme~ for the O r d History Office, Sarqamn State University k&ween SeptEsnber 17-19, 1987. m i 8 Staggs transffibea the tapes. Lhda S. Jett and Timothy J. Jones d t a d tha transcripts.

of the oral history nmoir should bear in rnind that it is a transcript of tlne spoken word, and that the i.nt€mieww, narrator and editor sought to presmm the informal, ccnnrersatimal Ectyle that is inherent in such historical sources. State Universiw is not respdble for the f a M accuracy of l2m me;moir, nor for views -therein;theEieareforthareadertojudge.

The marruwn:ipt may be red, quotsd ard cited freely. It may nat be in whole or in part by any nmam, electmnic or rmzham

withcrut: 'd,

ssim in writirq fmm the O r a l History Office, sangawn Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243.

Wd Borek, Springfield, Illinois, Septeanber 18, 1987.

Marilyn W f , Intenriewer.

Q: Would you tell me what you think were the major specific ach ievmts of the 1970 Constitution?

A: Well, I think one of the most specific things was that it was written in a mud.l shorter and precise manner so that the average high school student could unders- it. I think the civil rights recognition was outstanding. Myself, I ws on the L a a l Cavernanent Ccmnnittee Mch developd the hame rule theory and this was found to be acherely workable for dcipalities. Particularly, since inbqovarrrment cmperaticm to g a m m m t in operatim has pmdttad for garenrment and municipalities tqether to work for a prune objective to service all of their citizens. It's abcsut the mcs t impo-thing that I can see.

Q: Do ym see ShortcCanirrgS in the constitution?

A: Oh, yes. I particularly was very much in favor of the--I'm trying to think of the word right nav . . . Q: You've been steeped in this all day. Now, you czullt rerne;mber it.

A: We did not include that in the constitution. What I'm thinking of is the right to work law. We never even got to consider that. I thwght this was a very great shorbmhg muse you aye taw abaut civil rights and carbinly we oqht to be ta l ldq about the perscn henring the right to mrk at a given place. Toaay, we're paying Ule penalw for it because Illinois has a afficult t h attracting

Is mnrirrg out of Illinois. While we are mdhg

citizens a dzance to say, ''1 want to work or I don't want to work. I mttobelcglgtotheUnimorIdon'twanttobel~qtoadon.~' I Umqht that was a great shorbmhq. I do know this that had we entered that in the cnnstitution, the right to work, the unions would have worm very hard to defeat the constitution or we p-ly wuuldnk have it. So, we have the better of the two situations. At least we have the constitution, which I think is so flexible and so good that it should last another couple of hundred of years without having to change it much.

Q: other than the right to work item, are there we8 that yau think are desirable t d a y seventeen years later in that constitution?

A: W l , th always makes for change but on ths spur of the mmmt, I wrmld ;rsay it is very limited. On the qmr of the m m m t right now, I really can't think of q change that I wtruld recamad.

Q: So, I can assure that if the vote mre today to ask for a new corrverrtim, you would vote no?

A: I w0uJ.d vote no, yes, very precisely. For aeveml m, f i r s t of all, in 1969 €ud 1970, the Wdg& for the new e i t u t i o m l m e n t i o n was twelve million dollars. Today, I noticed the M a s t

was $5.50. W e l l , we used to pay about $1.50 for ths lunch and for 5.50 we gwk a dinner. Eighteen dollars, appmhate ly , for our -7 roam at the State Hmse Inn. Here it's $40.00. So, I wxld imagine the co& of tbs new mmtitutimal cawation would be at least f i m million dollars. spend fiPty million dollam to correct what? One or two little items that can be lxhn care of thmgh m d m m t s . So, obviausly, I am very mucb against a - canstitutim.

A: I felt that was ~ ~ ~ T ~ u o u s . I didn't W h k that was necessary. m l y , I was nut one that favored that propsition, and I didn't even v o t e f o r i t . I ~ l y ~ ' t ~ . t h e r e l s ~ n e e d f o r i t b e c a u s e . U l e ccmstitu,tim we developed was W l y that good.

A: No, I don't think so. I think it w a s a very good idea bides meting these delegates here again. I -t it w a s a great idea and reflecting over werything I've read ard mlve discussed in crur msethyywrm~i, noithasnotchangedmynclrdatal l . U l e I s a y , theremnoneed, inmyopinion, forsperdhgwhat Ithinkwwldbe f i f ty million dollars to change the State Board of Elections, which has few shortcdrgs. I can't think of anythbq else right ncrw, but for a little imprwernmt what you could do w i t h that kind of money.

A: Well, I weus a fo- bushesmm and you sit back and yau say to the - self, "what do I leave for my kids arwl. my grandd.lildren?" You can leerve U-mm a million dollam or b~ million dollars, and fram

ahkt sleeve to ahirt sleeve jn three generations, it's gone. My working far and hcdng elected as a delegate to the cmstitutimal corrverrtim gave n~ a l za re rdcn~~ satisfaction. gmrdchildran can forwer refer to nry grardfather and say, T@ mtqreat grandfa-, &tls his narne on the CODlStitutimal mmmtim and he helm create

COn&ihtt;LOn Wkh &ill have to this day." Nm, this t0 W is the mst rwrealing f ~ a t u r e of my servioes. It was a lot of hard work and self4enial. That's how I feel about it.

Q: A r e there any mies that aren't so satisfy- or d i s a ~ i n b m k ?

A: No, I really can't because I w a s chaina2m of the camnittee on jcnurndls and I often stayed bqord the sessicols and gat up and studied than at night and got there early in t h e m so I m l y didn't have arry tinae to really have any bad m. Trcltheully, I didn't have any bad n m m k outside of the teather. We gat aw fu l cold weather and t38 driving back and forth to chicago, but Illinois is still a pretty state to drive thraafP1. So, &ly no bad nmmt of any

A: Well, my obsematian of the citizens, not m l y of Illinois but: nationwide, were very mncemed about the lack of in g m m m m t as revealed by the v0th-q recad, particularly of y m q people. Sclmehcrw or another, warrebady shcuLd really M r p f o m so ths citizens can get in 1- govemmk again. I - that today in sd.lools, t h q do not teach gecgmphy or history or civics, psr se, we call it social M e s zsnd awer just general subjects oa it. I d d 1- to see thern specifically -inhistory. I h a p t o b e a c i v i l w a r b u f f . Imlk ~ t h e ~ a n d I j u s t f e e l l i k e I ~ m ~ w i t h A b ~ Lincoln. I t hhk that there is a greater hterest in gmmmrmt, greater htemst in our nation. Aveteran of world War 11, I spent three and a half years in the service, inc1- fight* in Japan and Gemrarry. So, I'm very praud of that. And d a w or ather if we could pick up this core of cur young people, so that could go out

and wave the flag for the U.S.A. That's my feeling abmt it.

Q: Okay. Thank ycru very much1 I appreciate i t !

Em3 of Tape One, Side One

This mmsadpt is the pmduct of a series of tape recorded irrterviews by G. Cullan Davis; ~ i m Hoffmnn; milyn Huff; and Timythy

J, Jcarss for the O m l his to^^ Offiae, &xqamm State University between S q b x h r 17-19, 1987. Francie Staggs trammibed the tapes. fiirrdti S. Jett andT- J. Janes ediMthetreulsffipts.

Jmrras S. Bmxmen was born in EvanstcYn on August 31, 1938. A resident of Genwa, he the 38th D i s t r i c t at the Illinois QonstiwOnal mIlmmtlm. m. BrawLen served on the Rev8mm amlittee.

Readers of the oral history mmir shauld bear in mind that it is a kmsmipt of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to preseme the infoLmal, cwnrersatimal style that is inhererrt in such historical saurces. Sarqmm~ State Wversity is ncrt respan&ible for the factual accuracy of the m e m k , nor for views eqre=edtherein; theseare forthereaderto judge.

The nrarruscript may be mad, quoted and cited freely. It may mt be rqmducdinwholeorinpartbyarrymeans, dectrmicorrrrechanical, w i t h o u t pmissicm in writing fman the oral History office, S- S t a t e mver&ity, Springfield, ~llinois 62794-9243.

Kimberly A. Hoffraarm, m i e m r .

A: Well, I guess, themajar amarplistnaesrt ms Wt -were able to agree cm a dacrrmerrt that mild be accepted by the people. That documruYntbeirrgabletorepl~olnsthatIthinkhadcrutlivedlits wefUmsswiththepeopleofthestate. I t h h k t h e P r o s t ~ i v e parks of the docmmt are that it was a legitinrate wnd earnest effort m part of tAe delegates nut to legislate. I thinls. the fact that thatkindof adocumeslt, e v e n t h o u g h i t w a s ~ ~ a n t t i m e s

we passed it, a t kind of a dncumerrt's abi l i ty to be by the people of the state is prdhbly quite signifcant, I1d say.

Q: Issmhe, w h a t d o y c ~ z t h M c a r e t h e i m p o ~ ~ t h a t c a m e aut of i t ?

Q: What hwre

A: Well, in my opinion, we went t w far in the B i l l of RiqWs. I dmlt think that we m d be try- to create a ill of R~ghts in a state that is s i g n i f i d y different than the federal B i l l of Rights unless rn think that Illinois c i t izens are uniquely errtitled to different rights than -18 of states. And it was not ny opinion that^^, SoIthillkthatweprtthingsintherathat have caused ISZE M l e , w e l l interrticmed, but I'm not sure they needed to be in aur canstitutian.

A: Well, thbgs lfks housing. Right to housing lht V i c t o r Rigo's pwpcwition as it related to tell- jobs and Polish j&. Scrme of thase things just didn't add a lot to the cmnstitutinn.

A: Not significant but tbsy cuuld just as w e l l have been left out.

Q: Frmm today's -ive, what changes in the cowtitution do you t hhk are desirable and in need o£?

A: Well, I think that there are waae areas where cleanup would be nice. Yau knuw, there are federal decisions and the a m r b have w e tjcrrne of the t h h p that we did, so the constitution no longer QOnfoms to tihat is, in fact, practi-. It would be nice just to be able tm dean it up and have the drxxrment right. That's not a mering need for a . IthinkthattherearescansareasaEsthey relab to the relati bebea~ the judiciary and the leg is la^, where the judiciary in the area of audits for exanpls, has a l u d e d funds. Those m clearly nut ths intention of the delegates and thosekinclrsof thinpshouldbedmqed. I t h i n k t h e m ' s a n e e d f o r a review of the Judicial Article. Wzt in none of those cases do I think those are such pressing needs to risk another constitutioml comresrtim an9 the work p- that axme out of it justifies a call.

Q: Yes, that goes dorg w i t h ny next: guestion. So, ycnt would vote to -1 a new cwlv~tion?

A: Yes, because I don't see- the doclrments is sufficiently defective to requixe a &age. Hxt of the thixlgs that people want, I m e a n l a r g e i n ~ t ~ w a n t d r a r r g e d ~ l o o k ~ a ~ ~ ~ t ~ t i o n t o change w s t h h p that if w ' s sufficient pressurs ammg the citizenry, the legislature W d have ta put those items on the ballot. There is nothirrg so &mctmaly b m r q w i t h the dacuments, nor is tham w x w t h h ~ t h a t -its crurabilitytogwemourselves so that it j-fh &ling the awnrention. We shmld not have a cmstikrtirmdl co~~venticpl just to curvt ~ a c i a l problems mat the garemor or the legislature aren't willing to p m i d e the leademhip toeurei t . ~ ~ ~ g o i n g ~ ~ t h e b e n n s a u t ~ g e t m wim pedple to mlve l2me problems.

A: The cml thing I think could happan U d be a group of-a variety of special Lts grap, might join together and call a ~ i m a n d t h s n ~ t ~ d b e t h e ~ d a n g e r a u s k i n d o f conventimthatwle d d have.

Q: In retroe3pect, do you think that twantyyar mcmsidaration call is a god idea?

A: Yes.

Q: Were you for that at the aorrventim?

A: Yes.

Q: Well, that was a pretty controversial issue, right?

A: It was. But ksep in mind that one of the things that we tried to build into that c o n s t i r n t h was significant pcwer to the legislature, mil we wanted to m t e a strong legislature. We didn't warrt t o put a lot of legislative t h h q ~ in the d i t u t i m . So, we had to have a check in what we law would be the legislaturels reluctance to qive UP arry of that pck\rer in an armarent to Ehe mnstitutian. And w we

-

thaught *t it essarYtial, if we w m t in that -ion, or at least I d j d t o h a v e a p e r i o d o f t h m e n r a r y ~ ~ w l ' l A n t h e p z l b l i c could decide whether there were sufficiently pressing qwstiam of a constftutimal mhm that m q u h d a call. We didn't know either. W e h a d n n i d e a b h a t o t h e r ~ m i g h t b e p z r c r p o a e d . Wehadno ideasjhetheranyofthoseseparateisrmesthatwemkdttedtothe peuple W d be accepted or rejected. It d d well have been that if

of thcee is- would hecaw significant, then the people would want to Inah safe -8s.

A: I thought it was essential.

Q: Yclu did? To pass the cunstilxtion?

A: Yes, and I think:we probably ended up w i t h the right rannber of issues. There ms a lot of debate about whether we shouldhave more or less. S W d w e have a cafeteria caasthrtian and let people ~ o r ~ d w e h a v e d y ~ i s s u e ~ t w a s s e p a r a t e , ~ I t h i n k wepido3dEhe issuesthatwerevaryiaax>rtant andagl06ive, -1 think a ccsabbtion of those issues could have done the constitution in. '15Larcs were an awful lot of legislative leaders and athers who didn't want that h i t u t i o n passed. And, so I Udnk if they hadn't been able to rally the-well, the anti-efghteeny~arcold vote group and, yr=u laww, a of those athers that they p-ly mild have defeated the dacmmt.

James S. Brannen 4

Q: Whatabcutywxxmtitumqf? Whatlsnzeswlerespecialtom a did -=Y let yau knclrw awing the comentim? D i d yau get pmseum h-m~thecwNarr t im?

A: O n l y a l i m i t e d m a n b e r o f specialhbmsthwesandneverin large nmhm. The isolated ~ l e felt strcmgly about this,

A: Qh, the banldng issue, of course. The right to work, the gun control, the election or appointment of judges. And thm fram the legislator's -ves the s- of the legislabaxe.

A: I donlt feel as h e m d y one way or the other as a lot of people do, G i m the -ice on a ballot, I U d probably vote for appohtmmt, lxrt I don't think that Is a sufficiently mprica. system. I don't tkink history has proved it sufficiently superior so that we ought to have a constilxtianal cwnrantion to launch that.

Q: You thought that worked well. WcRild you want to do it again?

A: No. It was a vary £rustrating exgerieme and I think it's somthbqthat-well, fmamyownpersonalpointofview, n o f w w l d mt. I would rpt want to be in the leglalature either, tut I'm glad I did that.

Q: Wall, that are your least favorable nsmriss?

A: Well, I guess there were a ample of -ions whare the opposite of a t I just said was true arrl especially in the early stages of the ccanrerrticon, I think we were fairly c l e m a cc~lple of occasions of j u s t ~ t h e m m t i o n a p a r t a n d g o i n g h a a e . Ithinktherewem sam ferilums in leademhip a couple of t h s . Crises in leadership that almoetwlrrnttothe~seof the mentionandpeople like Elborr Smith ccmpp kr at the laat mimate and w. were able to get waything pulled tqp&her. There were sam real failures in 1-p tllmgh it.

A: W l , it depaxls on what ycsl consider aplosive. I suppose in b m s of argmmt, the gun issue was the mast passimately agwd. In teraars of an issue that p~rmeated that whole comentim way out of proporUmto its -was thebanking issue.

Q: Waitd you want to go into that a little bit?

A: well, that was the isrsue crverwl.rsther or nut the brandl banking prwislon should be s t r i b frcm the dEocLmrent or whether it &mld be changed, whatmer the case might be. It 3 x m e an issue where the

I kmmts thought h the final analysis that they could get the OriY e ght t o five limit taksn off the inoarrs tax in tmde for the pas- of the banking prwisim and to consider the importance of t h o s e ~ ~ t h e ~ l g v e l w a s r i d i ~ o u s . BUttha.tprabablywzlsthe most intense 1-ing that w m t on wer that period of t ime. It drew the a t ~ i o n , occupied tin^ way hyard its hp~rtance.

Q: Huw do yau feel abut the Arture of thE3 eight to five ratio? DO yau think that it's going t o stay?

A: Ido. Ithinkitls rtant. I it's a provision. not that i t ' eT* t to five. It h%%%Zci t, twotothree, i t o c x x l d b e - m h w , thenmbrisreallynot i m p o ~ , lazlt it serves a very hprhnt It w i l d s the in- of business and individuals to rrcrk tc~~ethsr with respect t o incaw tax rates ard to have a nwt - of the rmnde. And it's a very hprhnt check in the legislature so that they don't pss expedient taxes and bil ls in the budget, So I don't care What the ratio is and I don't care whether they firrd little ways armu2d it hem and there, principle is very important, I thhk.

A: Yes*

A: Well, that was a very ' mmitl%e. TanGyonswas m at a m G Z E E % i c a g o f o b rho w r e f i a t - very vigarsly for the pem0m.l property tax. There were atham of us wfio felt that the elirainatim of t h e w pmpertytaxwas enough r e m n to have a cmstitutimal ccmdm, so the battle l h were dramonthat imeveryearly. I h e i m l n e ~ w a s n o t a s i m p o r t a n t anissueasitmi~thavebesnbecausethestateMalreadypassed a r x i U l e S u p r e r m s C a u r t h a d a p 3 ? r ~ e d t h e ~ ~ . Sothe explosiveness of that was out of the corw~tion ard probably played an hprtant role in the ability to pass a work prdwt. There were also a mmiber of pup18 on the camit- wfxr were very sound financial pe~ple who just kept worm through a l l of the politics and

out that Public Finarm Article. We dealt with the issues one at a t h anl by the tb we got to the end, I think there uws pretty goodagnammtthatwehadaccanprcnnise#atwouldwork.

A: Well, I thMr it's a that the state m d be prcxld of. I think the ability of the state as diverse as it is hsth in term of geography and s i z e of ccprmmuclty and werythhg else, ths ability of the state to get together m the doammt was significant. I don't thinkitdmuldbewerloaked. Ithinkwehavedmmmtwecanwork w i t h for a long the. I'm disappirrted that our lagislature wasn't a bitmorerespnns&le.tosarrreoftheWWmtmhin. The E;ducaticm Article, for ample, clearly intended t3-m state to play an inmeas- role in fhncirrg educatian. It avoided specific formulas and wlaatnot because that was legislated, But the clear mandate was the &te would play an increasingly important role.

A: Abmlutely. Because they have not bean willing to appmpriate the ~ t o ~ t h e l w e l o f m g p r t .

Q: Do yau think this one w i l l last a hundred years like the last one?

A: Well, I ' m nat sum that it's as -ive to the neda of the state as the year 2010 might require. I'm sure that there w i l l be thbqs nssded to be dmged in a significant: way w i t h i n the next hundred-. W e I d a a ' t t h M c ~ r s a n e e d f o r a c a l l a t t h i s point in your periad, I w a d m y not rule out the fact Ut ~ y e t r s f r a n n c r w , prabablyitwmldbeagoodtimetorwiewthe cibment.

A: Okay.

Preface

T h i s manuscript is the product of a wries of tape intarviews wnduckd by G. Cullum m i e ; Kim Naf &lann; Marilyn Huff; and Temrthy J. Jones for the Oral History ~ffim, Saqamn State Univemity between September 17-19, 1987. Francie S h g s transcribed the taps. Linaa S. Jett and Tjraatlry J. Jams edited #e transcripts.

Ibbert R. Canfield was born in Chaxlna on May l2, 1909. A resident of Rockford, he the 34th D i s t r i c t at the Illinois Cbnstitutional -ion. Mr. Canfield served an ths General Garerrrment Ocatrmittee.

Readersoftheoxalhisto~~~irdxxi ldbearinmindthat it i s a -ipt of the spokm wmd, and that ths htxmriemr, narrator d editor mt to presaxe the informal, mmemational style that is bhmnt in such historical smrces. sang am^ State university is not mqmsible for the factual a-cy of the memoir, nor for views @xpressedtherein; theseareforthereadertojudge.

The manuscript may be m, quoted and cited freely. It may not be rqmdwed in whole or in part by any mans, electmnic or mechanicEll, w i t h a u t pmdssim in writing frnm the oral Mstory O f f i c e , sangamrm State ~xllversity, Springfield, Illhis 62794-9243.

l&hrt Canfield, Springfield, Illhis, S e p b b x 18, 1987.

Q: Mr. Wield, would you tell ~ke what yau think are the major specific achievmmb of the 1970 Constitution?

A: Well, I th;ink that really the raajor adevemmt was to sort of cut out a lot of surpluses that was in the old cnnstituticm an2 maks it more Understzmdable and workable. We made s a ~ prqmss in the judiciary area, not as much as we prabably should have made, And, we did eliminate scane elective offices. We tried to bring goverrrment appointmats arrd officials d m to a certain -t. Really, the bi est t h b ~ of all was the wolution of the perwnal p- tax

was so badly abused. I d m % think it was a rwolutionary change in any d m ~ t of the word because in nry -imce, I We seen very little considerations at the judicial lwel of what we did in the constitution. Wrt, I do think it was a great hrprmmmt wer the old ale.

Q: Do you see arry major shodxdmgs in the 1970 Constitution?

A: I guess that I have a feeling that constitutions do not control the ebb and flow of the state as much as we might think they do. I candidly don't see any mjor need for a cmstitutional cawerrtion.

Q: So, you don't see mything that ncrw looking back you would like to change a b u t what you did?

A: (21, ~ a r e m a r r y t h b g s I t h i n k w e w r # l l d l i k e t o c h a r q e . Oneof the th ings tha t Iwmldlh tosee is thedea l ingwi121the constitutional amdrrmts to the federal constitution. They = requiring a 60 percent vote on that to apprwe at the state, and I think that prwed a hardship to possibly s a ~ good ammhents. It is not a big thing. I have always felt that the article relating to taxation arrd the like was not well done, and I felt that it could have been improved enorma~18ly. I don't )aclw h t will happen becaw there are so mimy persand interests of people, financial interests that are involved ard that Is always going to be kFnd of a jagged article in the cxmstitutian. I wish it were Mter and I'm not sure it would be even if we had a oo~lstitutional carnrentia,

Q: So, if a vote was held today to d l a new corntention, you would s a y * . .

A: Oh, I honestly thhk I'd pmbably vote Ear it because I think with new peaple and new apporh;mit~es ard new outlooks, them could be an imprwamt. T h i s o n e c o s . t a l o t o f m n e y b u t ~ c c w t s s o

Q: Rather than just do- it piecemeal by ammbmt?

A: Yes. I think so because I was in the state senate for quite a 1- period of t h . And, I fh-d that it's awfully difficult to get any thmqh. There really isn't a lot of motivatian for it ei-. I thjnlr that W cmstitutimal amvention qetm is prnbably the mst efficient way of doing it.

A: I think it's a good W&q. It's p t in tbe comtitutims of a m&er of other states that I sort of admire, and I think that it is a goodthing. ' & l e r e m a y b e ~ i n t h e c r m s t i t u t i o a s t h a t ~ changed ami the pmblern is is motivaM to do it i f they arenlt mquhd to. For thirty years before the last cmstitutianal -a, mny people I knew - fighting for a cmmtitutional camentian. Today, nabody is as far as I m.

A: Oh, Ihaveatendency, I-, t oawnandrmmhr the thhgs that are pleasant. I try to do that, but I didn't have any unhappy feelings about it. The big prchlesn that I felt was that so many people were =re interested in p a ~ 1 ~ 3 i . q a new constitution than they - in preparing a good me. And, they were wing their hpnuity to getscanethingthatpeop?lemdvoteforarrdthey-intirmdatedby the legislature and the coroners and else. That was the thin51 .that w l y irritated m. N o t of any one individual or

, h t Wt emtbmt did irritate me and it still does. I couldhwredmemchbetter.

a: What are scane of the good IlEmries?

A: Well, of course, I enjoyed dl1 thirrgs we did. ?he big good rmmrytometmsthatwepassedi t jn thes ta te . Ihavebeenin public office for mre than years and I always said I enjayed t h a t e l e c t i m ~ ~ ~ o t h e r b s c a u s e w @ ~ t h a t . mat aornrentim wuuld w i n it and we did w i n it. Rrt it ms very gratifying t o m e ~ t h a t ~ l y f s t h e ~ t p l ~ t h h g . Wxtallny esrperiences d u r q the canvmtion WEKe very pleas2Lnt: and llry relatimship as far as that is coaclwned with the staff, the delegates and the like, w a ~ i a very h a m thing.

A: Well, I thjnk that we have ta build up sme s e s l t h t or need for a cwlstitutional cawention if we're going to get rme because there wre a lot of fairly negative peaple. I have many people who I knew--

arxi you can print my Wlenge--who w e r e vary angry evld didn't want orae wrd charyged in the cxmstitutim. They o m are people of means ard vho would contribute to oppcsm it in a v i g n for the passage. ~ r e c a l l i n n r y a r e a t h e r e w a s ~ l y r n o r e m m e y r a i ~ t o c r p p o s e

" a'i'"""" of the constitution, There were well mmhg ard consc entiaus people who were trying to bring about the paswge because they had almost no money d the q p s i t i o n who opposed it steadfastly did have plenty of money and they used it and they bqht television time and they bought wwything else, Actually, in cur county, the cmstitution lost by a small margin. That, I a, was because we had a lot of good people working for it on one side and a lo t of verygoodpoplewhowere opposed to itworking on the other side w i t h the money in the hands of ths opposition.

Q: Okay.

End of mpe One, Side me

This mnwcxipt is the FEO%& of a series of tape recorded interviews ccaductRd by G. Cullcan Davis; Kim Hoffmmr~; Marilyn Huff; arrd Tlimothy J. Jones for the Oral History Officre, Sarqamn State Tfniversiw b h e e n Sepbtbr 17-19, 1987. Fhmcie Staggs transffibd the tapes. Ihx3.a S. Jett and TimDthy J. Jums edited the transcripts.

-09theorrnl-mirshcruldbearinrnind.thintitha transcript of the spaksn word, and that the btemiewer, narrator and editor wmght to presewe the informal, ccanrersatimal style that is hhemmt in such historical smrces. sangarm state university is not respc3llsible for the factual accuracy of the wmh, nor for views expr-a-in; thssear@forthereadertoj~.

Themamscriptmayberead, quotedardcited£reely. I t m a y n o t b e in whole or in part by ary nreans, electxmic or mechanical,

w i t h a r t pixmission in writing frcan the oml Histmy Office, Szlsagamon State U s l l m i t y , Spn:insfieLd, Illhis 62794-9243.

-in E. Dwe, Spn:hq£ield, Illinois, Sephnkr 18, 1987.

A: A little bit about the -tion Oampitbe. Letts see. I can't tellyoutherarmberofpopleonit. Icannanu3nmstof m. mUlias was the chaixman. Z4nI.E Ewans, HaEm, B i l l Fogel, Malcolm Cayman, Sam Mzch. I cantt tell yau the name of -1 can't recallthenamof~secretary. Wehada-assistantbythe name of Jane EWh, who was a very beautiful little girl. A s far as the amnittee was -, it wamtt a particularly cmptible graup. There waantt arry animssity. I don% recall any h i t y . It was rather cliquish. We had a particular clique, who ware the ~ a n d ~ t h e m o r e l i b e r a l ~ . Wewixeinthe & that misted of Malwlm Cayman and myself and Sam Pat& and B e t t y H c r w a r d a n d B i l l F b g e l . W e & d k i r d o f m & ~ t i r n e t ~ t h by Ouraelves and try to decide h m m, as the rqmsmtative minority party, wmldhaveaurwill imposedupanthemajority. Ithinkthat we, in the end, off- that.

Q: Was W a lot of 1-irrS of your cQnmitke by -tion groups?

A: Yes, there m. I didn't think a q of mre very effective. Highm dumticm was, as I -1, senreral- of the b m d appazed before aur calmittee. me mident of the TJni-ity of Illirvols did. N o m of which I thmght - very effective. A s I -1, many years later.

Q: Ymr cmstituency, people who elected yau as a delegate, did they have naxch of an influeme on yau? were Wmy w i t h h t you wleredoirrg? w e r e p l i n ~ c t w i t h ; u r y c n a ?

A: No.

Q: In p~ apinion, what wm ths major specific achiwemnts of the 1970 CoglgUbxticn?

A: You man, what is ny obematicrn s h this passage?

Q: Yes.

A: I think if mything it has freed up the legislature both reduchg the ratmber and by s-1- districts, which cam

a f b x t d s . S h it offered that opporbdq, rn wanted to get rid of ths cuarrulative voting in ths Hme of -ti-.

A: Yes, I was. I thinkthat that hashslped. I thinkthat has helm in ~~ the legislature. I think we've lnade a more f0- executive. The executive m, I think, is better able to ~ t o t o d a y ' s c h a l l ~ . ~tha t iSawmlgenera l f3ru t I th ink that without Mcating a q particular article or section of arry article, I think, that the end run has been that we have a ~ t u t i m that btt8r - the state of Illinois.

(2: Do ycxl feel that W 1- of education in the &te of Illinois

A: I vimldnlt knuw. I don't think so.

Q: In your apMon, what are the principal -, i f my, in the dcmmnt?

Q: F!mm today's -ve, what &qes do ycm fed are desirable in the cmnst ih t im?

A: Well, perhaps you shcruld have given me m o r e tbfe to reflect on that. I can't see that ;inv major changes are v.

Q: You can think a b u t that as we go on. Yesterday, the attormy general finally mde the decbim that m ths N- bdllot in 1988 t h e m w i l l b e t h e q u e s t i m o f w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e ~ d b a ~ cunstitulicmal canrention. Do you feel there shcnxld be?

A: No.

A: Mmbr one, my pmeption is that .there's no inpetus f m m any group that there should be a COnstitutiQnal mmmtim. I don't think that is jus t scmthiq that, wer a period of time say, 'Well, it has been twmQ years, we aght to do that again." There has to be scnne

Franklin E. Dwe 3

Q: Today, looking back, do you feel that the a-tic reamsiclerr;ltion p h i a n hcllldsd in the wnstitutian

A: C%1, I think itls agood idea. If -, it brings tothe f-, you lacrw, let's think about it, as - e w e should do t h i s o r n u t d o i t . I t h i n k t h a t ~ i s s u c h a l z n c k o f -in it at yculll have m>st people who m n l t enren vate on it.

Q: You b&d m the seldm of judges. HClW many side issues cm thebal1ot:wasthemethodof selectionof judges? Hardidycslfeel about: it 1970?

A: I feel the smre n m as I did i n 1970 that judges s h a d be electel. I dmlt belime in the amhtdpmcess . I n m y mind, the m l y thirrg that the appohtmmt does is, you knw, i f you don% tale it, that dcwsnlt I1telke it & of politics. You just have a different set of politics that wmld be involved. No nratter who does the sel- or what method you far scane nmthod of selection or scma process is gow ta be a politicdl exercise. I think that those are things that are desewing to be dum by the public.

Q: Wetauchedupmoneofths~s ids issues . Theothermeisto have d a t i v e vo-. Hav did ycru feel a h r t g iv iq eighteen year olds the right to vote?

A: I a m of that. I think that has prowl to be a good me. What year was the federal l aw changed? Was it right at the smne time, dhzr* that saxe time?

A: Yes.

A: Of cmrse, there wa& a lot of dbcussim as to that. The raajority of those present felt that was the only way that the dacummt could W s . If ymplacadthcehut bsuesonasepzlrateballut-not sepmte ballot-but raaking m t e questicms and let the public decide thoss. O f course, an the ather hand, there wwe others that

C Q U l d n ' t ~ u d e ~ ~ ~ i n ~ ~ , t h e y to let it sink. I thMc it was a goad decisian. I

supportea it at lhi tirare. I think that people viere W l y right. I think that if that had not been dam, tkKe&dbe sough cmkwerq that it wwldnvt pass.

Q: Yclu said that the colrauittee that yau wrm a, the Emmtion w t t e e , the -ities didn't mat.& vew well. The ccanrarrtim as a whole, &did thr? mix? id pecple work +ocrether well and ms it a prof~~13ional bdy?

A: I thwght it was. You're gow to have that marry stmq-wil led people, you're go- to have your and lscrme of them vay h e a t e d a r r d w s a e o f t h e ~ l e ~ g e t v e r y ~ m a l ~ ~ . A stard an issues that they worked a 1- the far and widenbdly felt very strrngly abcrut. But, I think by and large, it was a ve~y canpatible g m q . -18 rn very mspectful to e.a& and w m t &cart their ~ I S ~ ~ B S in a prrofessianal-.

Q: Hcrw rm& i n f l m did the political parties ham on the m?

A: Plsy had m. My per0aPtio1-1 before the canention was that they muld have a l&. That was not the case. The gmg would fall togerther, yau lacrw, arrd the political philosophy and it didn't 1onrgto)ackJwhen~wasaowllsenmtiveoral iberalora prqressive. I think W terms or those grwps, yau kncrw, that kind of ideology tmdemrkirq or marking was mre a m than say the politicdl m e s as they traditiomlly would.

Q: Did arry me person have gUCh a pemaaliw that he or she clamhated the process? 'Ihat the dacrrrmerrt is a reflection of their ideolcgy in aq7 sense?

A: No.

Q: Looking ba&, do you have arry negative m i e s at a l l at the canention?

A: I &d my satisfyins wwld be the people that I met w.

Q: In the oaurse of t h b intewiew, I taached an sam specific issues that's ban thm&mt this irrterviewhg. Are there any other

Franklin E. Dcrve 5

e l m of the cawentian or the e i W m itself, w h i c h I havenlt tmdld m, that yau'd l h to discuss?

A: No, I canlt say that is.

A: No.

Q: In thepas tsmmteen~,hmhas~kir lgmthec33nst i tu t im your autlmk m life, if at dl?

A: C%1, I dmlt Wdmk it has very-. I ' m a lawyer. I ' m in .the generalpmcticeoflaw. Ithink, if-, Ihaveabetter appzciatian of t h e e persms Wtat decide to dwote their lives to public: w i m , it be in the jdciary or the legislaturs or the amcu-tive parts of gcnremmsnt. I 1 m amre of what itls lh to be in the mlic qotlight and to know sate of their difficulties and I have a better agpmciatian of it.

Ehd of Tape One, Side One

This mmscript is the prduct of a sari- of tap reamled irrtervim cmdwbd by G. C u l l a n Wis; Kim Hoffhrarrn; Wxilyn Huff; and Timathy J. Jones for the O r a l History Office, State University between September 17-19, 1987. Erancie Shggs transcrihd tlae tapes. Ihda S. Jett and Tiamthy J. Jones edited ths tmmxipts.

Mph A. IXlnn was born in P-ille on Februaxy 28, 1914. A resident of -in, he mpmsmbd the 56th ~istrict at the Illinois cmstitutianal cawentian. Mr. IXznn Elewed an the Local earenmuent: ammittse.

R B a d s r s o f t h e W h i s t o r y m i r M d b e a r h m i n d t h a t i t i s a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and e d i t o r mt to to the theinfonaal, cwlve~satimal style that is inheresrt in such historical soumes. Sanganvrm State Ulsiversily is not responsible for fa- aor=uracy of the =ir, nor for views qpmssedthmain; theseare forthereaderto judge.

The ramscript may be red, quoted and cited freely. It may not be in whole or in part by axry means, electrwnic or mechanical,

ssim in writing fmn Uls Oral History O f f i c e , Sarigaron Sprmield, Illhis 62794-9243.

Ralph Durm, Springfield, I l l h i s , Septmkc 18, 1987.

Cullan Davis, Intervim.

Q: Mr. IXmn, I have cane guesticms to ask beg- wim yc~l r clwn

persmalopinionof whatdoyouthhikt~ieretheoneortxmorthree major specific accc~np1khmts of the 1970 Oonstitutim?

A: W e l l , I guess the major mncems would have been havirg to do w i t h redistricting and ralrporticment. And - of the laws mt passed in the legislative article and, of carse, I was an the M Gavenmwntoclrmnitteeandthehamerulehadtobetherarmberone. I thhk that was m l y the - that the cmstitutimal camention w a s called because the ~ i l l o n l s rule, and they wanted to do away w i t h that a d ge t ham rule.

Q: The ha^ rule a.rd reapprt iOrrmBSrt , in your mind . . . A: W e l l , pmbably, the incame tax. Ma*, I should leave the f h t olleandgowithincaolretaxand.. . Q: Well, of course, the *tax in away had alreadybeen in effect.

A: Had already bean in effect. Wzt the eight ta five ratio, I think, is m r t a n t . H a r e rule, probably thoee tm. I ham scrme small ~ t h a t ~ l y w t x e , p k t - m , Itmwenashamdof thesnbutthe bigissueformswasIxmkirag. I w a s a u n i t k a i k r a s ~ t o t h e big, bad banks frura Chicago and Pecrrj~ that warrted to have branch bankixrg. Thatwasmeof thebig [issues], ym)tncrw, it seeredtobe that it boileddcrwntothat. Andmen, of caurse, I mpprbd.the sjxrs1e"mesnber districts.

Q: ah, yau did?

A: I did. In the legislature in 1973, my first caastitutimal mer&mt wmld have M the sinqle-rmhr district arrd it a d have ta3clen effect in 1990, I Mieve. I danlt when, myhe h 1980. I made it far enuugh duwn the road that all who were then TnlOUld think it wcxildnlt amlyto them. Wtt, thm laterwhen the atback and the Mtiative ms operated, Pat Q&m and his grcrup--ly thm I had been h the legislature long enoeagh. and made fiiexlds with ltry fellcrw legislators and decided that I wanted to help protect all of crur job. So, then I c h q e d my p s i t i o n and was for the .three-mesaber district. But since we have the s i n g l ~ d i s t r i c t n a w , I t h h k t h a t r r y f i x s t ~ n a s r i g h t a n d i t w o r k s better and it probably is

Q: So, if I can bkerpmt what you said. of the shorkadqs, h yaur recrollectim, of th@ 1970 Constitution would have been its failure to write into the dmurmt itself single-me;mber diEstricting?

A: Right. Yes.

Q: Rut, I guess an acaplistrment wuuld be its refusal to approve bJzindlbankhg?

A: t Well, yes, we were able to hold our am on branch banking and then there - olhar little red- like the right to kep awl bar arms and - of those that we f-t the battle for. But, all in all, the f.rxal Garemrnent Camnittee was interesting andrthinkhanerulewastheraainthing. o r a e o f m t h h p t h a t w e , of course, had a lot of a t e erbcut was what s i z e cities &d get h m e r u l e ~ t h a t c m n e o u t o f a u r ~ ~ ~ t k e ~ t h e s l the fact that w e gave hare ruZe to Coak Ccntnty. It was the m l y county in 11linois that ele=ted a chief exRcutive officer and we came up smetbfe, I think, late at night in aur cumnittee w i t h the idea thatthedypeop?le.thatmlywarrtedhclrrrarulewasCook-d the city of Chicago, particularly. So, we came up with the idea .that

ary that elected a chief exearUve officer should have hame rule.

A: Took cara of that. So, those wem sme of things I ww for.

Q: 1 i t . Now, let's laok today a t almost bmty pars later, what in W mmtitution, in your opinion, are u q m t l y or veYy mi-1~ ===am

A: Oh, I d m % lam i f thtzce is any great need. We've done pretty well w i t h our ammdhg pmoess s h we passed the 1970 Cmshtution. Idonitlawrwif I h a v e a r r y ~ t f l ~ t h i r v g s t h a t ~ ~ ~ d d l i k e t ~ see changed by a new acastitutim. A lot of things we could look at, we talked t d a y a little bit abut it. I think maybe my fears of having a new constitutional comentim M g h any - I might have for wsasthirrg that we didn't prt in.

Q: I see. H w abcRzt the amendatory veto? Do ycru feel it is satisfactory?

A: We've a t e d sane abcrut that. I the gavemor's position m 2lmendatory veto. 'fhsre has sam talk and M h Madigan said W y h c r u r d t t e e . U l a t h e ~ d l ~ t o r w r e r s e t h s v o t s l s o f it to cca~wr wia the mmdatory veto. It wwld tab a -fifths majority and to it back to the way the bi l l was, it would take a s-le majority. I think that is probably all rim. I t h h k that is one of the thugs that I cuuld w. Baring any political persuasion.

Q: Okay. So, nry question was going to be me at you may have alreadyhdbwUyansww=dandthat is, i f theelectionthatweare

go--- vote in favor

next year were apparjns today, wwld you be inclined to of call* - c m s t i k t t i ~ cornrerrtionz?

A: No, as of today, I wuldnlt. You knm, we've gat about eight or

A: Well, Ithinkmdidaprettygood jab. Itisonly-yeam old. We've it three or f a r times. We could amend s c m d m p ~ ~ fnto it yet i f the people want it.

Q: Is there a danger in that?

A: Yes. I think that is what I was going to address next and maybe the mer is no more faunded than it was when we had cyur 1970 mti tu t imal Cawendion, but have and always w i l l have, I Irn sure, a lo t of frw g m g s or groups wfio have same 1- that we p x h b l y wouldn't-for -, I don% &upport ths right of the initiative for arrythirrg exl=ept of the legislative mbup. I think thatwasgood. I t h i n k i t w o r k d m l l , I m t I W d h a t e t o s e e i t opened up to California or M i s s a r i or sane of the other states have the initiative. T h i s isn't say* the aren't &mart

l x r t ~ e l & m ~ d o W t a n d I t h i n k W t i s ~ i b l e . T h e respmsibility of ths people.

Q: So, y w think ths risks far outweigh anymndest . . .

Q: That logically leads to another question ad that is in retroEipect, do you feel that the w ' y ~ a r reconsideraticxi rule was really a good idea?

A: I think it probably was. Twm&-five would have pmbably been better. We ddated scane about that. I think-years. I was surprised that 1988 has been-the attomey gereml widentially has ruled that 1988 is twenty years. I was k i d of tkinking it a d be in 1990. Wit, you h a w , it doesnlt matter rrmch. We are go- to call it m y , so whether it is 1988 or 1990, it mlt rHakms any difference to m.

Q: But given ye~l r appcxsitim to a new m m , yau still feel that the cppo?mnity for the Wlic to wid@ on . . . A: Yes, I think so. I think the p b l i c w i l l act reqmeible. If t h y w a n t athe, my, yeru knew, I clartainly will not object to it. W z t I justdantt feel that- i s t h a t ~ c h a n g e t o ~ . If I feel a year frum now as I do now, 1'11 be oubp&en abcrut rrry m i t i o n t o the call fm it.

Q: I waiLd like ncrw to turn to acazre mmories you ham of the camention itself, nut ths constitution. What are your r w d satisfying nEQwrieg of that e~rperienoe?

A: m, I seyved on the Local Gavemment Ccaranj.ttee. A g~reat group of people. I enjayed the cmradeq w i t h all of the ol3er delegates and it was my first -ience in arry kird of p b l i c life. I'm a high schmlgmduateratherthanacollegepersan. I g u e s s I r a n m c e be£-, I ran in 1968 for a delegate t o the Fepblican N a t i o n a l Cawention and I had helped -tor mzq or Chu& R x q at that time run for gcrvenzor in 1964. But to really run for an elected office, w e l l this was-well, I shouldn't say that because I ran in 1968 as a delegate to the Fkpblican cmventian, lxrt I didn't In#rw aboert: ths 1llinois constituticm, but I saw an opportunity to learn scsnethirrg abu t it. So, I w m b to arrd solicited f rcmny Leque of WOlIIlMVOterS i n m y d i & i c t a l l t h e l i ~ ~ I c e r u l d g e t a b c r u t i t a n d I t o o k a ax& arxlrse, youmight say, in the constitution. b q f e l l m . . . I m s fortuMta to have David Kenney as my fell= mate and m e and I were fri-. So, I 1- an Dwid heavily for my w i s e in the constitutional cwrvention. And making qee&e~ amm3 the district, vhy I 'm sure that he helped me quite a bit in that. So, that was t h e m satisfyirgthirvgwas just t o be allcwed t o serve in this body of the cmstitutioml cmm&ion. A great g m q of pwple.

Minor victory that we l e f t by I318 lot and yau might recall is do- away w i t h the wroaers h the constitution. This was h the Local Garenmrant Carranittee. My was the president of the 1llhis Coronerrs Aswciatim. He was of the crpposite polit iail par ty and he had a Iaetty etrmg labby %here and they arne in quite regularly t o lobby t o b z p the corarrsrs the CCglStituticm. I had read samplace, maybe the Lsague of Wmm V h , scnreone mggeskd that Uley didn't nasd to ke d t u t i a n a l i z e d . We W d keep them. There was a big rnwementmformsdical-. OookCcnartywantedamsdical amminer. W e h a d ~ t e s t i m C n y i n a n A ~ h a d ~ i r q s i n C h i c a g o akmt the fact that W corrmerrs didn't have to have any exprtise. So, Dr. Wine, I believe it was, may have been one of the few pathologists in the state of Illhis at that th. He thought that they ought to a l l be msdical wamhers. I wasn't cosnrinced of that, but I thought a t lest the people mght to have a chance i f they wanted to, to do as we d i d w i t h the state's a ~ m q and athers. could be multi-caunty or they could do m y w i t h thm. So, I was able and I guess crne of q little victories e, to t z a k the cormem out of the ccmstitution. T h e cormers, ~ i ~ l y , are still mad at me. In a b u t 1984, I believe it was in 1984-1982 or 1984, in 1984 I ran against the coroner again &-in fact, the f i r s t th I ran the ~ t h a t I d e f ~ ~ ~ a n d h i s ~ i s B a m i e ~ W i ~ t h e r e c ~ r d h e ran against-I beat him for the hause. And then twelve years later, wall I beat another colmm?, named ~~ for the senate seat. m i d e r r t of the Illinois Co- Associatian in 1984 was a R e p u b l f c a n ~ M C L e m ~ . Wtthecamederwninnrydktxictand Campaigned for my appcnent. Their feel- was so s t m q . I just had a fit, yau knew, what more rightems hdignation ard I thaght, 'Well, that is just not riqhtm1' And so I got aftar m e q b d y in the camQ inc ludl ingth iSguyandhe~ ' t spe2ik to lne today. Wrtthatismeof the 1itU.e victories.

Q: Y e s . You had thaght it was si l ly to force that position u p n

A: Yes. I thmght they a t to have .the right to decide. H since then several camties t I think, saen or eight, and sum of them now

call it d e f deam officer or

carbine. So, that was me of the things that we did a n l it didn't amount to much. I enjoyed it. A little victory for me.

Q: Do you have kind of unpleasant mmries abcRzt the v i e n c e ?

A: No. We last scane bi l ls and one thing or another, but I don't thinkin-why, you]uKXlf, fmmthisdbtmae-itseerrdljke it was a great thhq, I ' m sure, a t the the.

Q: id it get an ymr nemes, I mean, did yuu get -ted a t all?

A: Yes. Sarae. We had - lxymmranw+n with bran& banking and gcane of the things that ha-. I, at are time, worked out an qmarmt w i t h Chicago that w e a d have a phian. It would tab thee-fifth's majority--if yc#2 wanted to go to branch bankirq. Over night that &hanged ard they came back the next 1110ming and decided it a d m y terke a s-18 majority, but I was able to mil rn them it would anly take -fifths or a majority, whim- ms the greater. And so wm did get that. We got that in. That was me of my little, I guerss, trim@s, tm, it was also kind of lost because I had gone to bed one night thinlclng I had the three-fifth's majority. Ekk, you )mar, I think w e al l realized that as times changed, bmkmy was going to change scaneday. I had fiEty or fifty- or two banks m my district and a t that lime, aL1 but one or two frwored unit balking. S o I ~ r e p ~ t h s ~ l e i n m y ~ i c t a n d ~ ~ t o d o that. Evm las tmrmth, inJUly, I vated against the inhxlzte banking

Q: Yau've been cans-.

A: I've stayed camistent. I am a d i m c b r of a bank that w i l l m l y benefit frm interstate banking.

Q: As yuu loak back on that v i e m e , did it exert any i n f l m on your l i f e or your politics or yaur career?

A: Oh, I'm sure it has. I pmbably would not have gotten involved in the lagislahm. I had no intention, I think, a t that time or before that th. I like the legislative process. I tell people today, although I've served in b t h the houses of the legislatures now for a total of £ i f t e a years. I've told thm the greatest v i e n c e I had, methn t I learnedthemost andwas themst satisfyhqwas sewhgas a delegate to the CMlStitutional. ccrrrverrtim. No, I thAnk .that I'll lna;intain that.

Q: well, okay. That's good. I appreciate it.

of Tape One, Side One

Preface

This mmsmipt is the ywoduct: of a series of tape recorded intewim crmltucted by G. cullam mis t Kim Hoffmrm: Marilyn W f ; and Timothy J. Jones for the O r a l H k b q Office, Sangmru311 State University ktwem Septe;mber 17-19, 1987. =ie Staggs transcribed the tapes. Linda S. Jett and Timothy J. Jones edited the lmnsmipts.

TheImmscriptqberead, quotedandcitedfmely. Itmaynotbe q x r d w e d in whole or in part= by any mans, el-c or m c h a n i d , without p m h i o n in wri- frcw the Oral History office, Sangamon State Urcivemi'Q, Sprirasfield, Illinois 62794-9243.

Judge Wendell Ixlrr, Sprirrsfield, Illinois, S e p h h r 18, 1987.

Kimberly A. Hoffhmm, mi-.

Q: Judge IXur, what were the major specific achiwemmks of the 1970 Ccmstitutim?

A: Well, you need to mqare the 1970 Canstitutim w i t h the 1870 mnstitutian, ram than just talkjng about them in the akstracrt. I think we streamlined the d t u t i m subdimtially. Took out a lot of stuff that was more m l y kyislative. If it belarrged in state law a t all. For ample, pmvisicms relating to grain elevators and wmdmse, and t o r a w . I think w e recognizBd in the B i l l of Rights scrms rights a r d elevated them to wnstitutimd. stature that needed t o be so treated and hadn't k e n im the past for exanple. Prohibitim, disdmimtion, not mly racial lmt sexual discrimination. The initiative prwisims that enabled the pecple themelves to speak in tha legislative field on restructurw the legislature. That being a subject that is kind of d i f f i d t for the legislabre to do itself. To perform self axputation, for -let and cut their size down by -fourth. Right off of the top of my head, I canlt think of other specifics. W e mmgnized, for the f i r s t the, the right of an individual citizen t o keep and bear arms subject to the police w, of muma, where that had wer been reoognized befme. The federal cmstitutim m l y d z e s the collective right of the people while aclting as a mil i t i a to kaep & bear arms not the right of an individual citizen as w e lacrw them.

A: Frrm this varrtage pjnt of swenteen v, I canlt lreally recall particularly. I can recall my gmeml att~tude a t the time. There were, of caurse, ~ m r r e p i s i o n s that I thought were shorkmhgs because it is a political doummt. As such, has to pass mster with a lat of puple W look a t it frcaa dif fermt viewpoints. Scrxne people thinktheyarestmqths, StherthinktheyaredetritHants, ccrrrversely. Wrt right m, I don't recall what thoBe particularly, because i t ~ t o b e t b a t n a t h i r r g ~ ~ i n m y n l i n d a s b e i n g h E l r m R z l t 0 the state.

A: I can't think of anythhg riFt off hand that wrruld meet that descriptim. There were scane thmp that were ~ ; o volatile that m put on as sepamte issues, rather than putting t h a n into th@ cmstitutiw?.

I t h i n k t h a t ~ w c r u l d h a v e b e n t h e t h i r r g s t h a t w o u l d ~ l i l r e l y n0thavepannedmt andwouldhavewritten irrto W wnstituticm muse they wmtld have caused it to f a . It wouldn't h a m been accepted by the pecq?le or at least w e felt that. Wrt given the people -ves have selectd vhich altm-ative, alternative 1- to the majority. Those - m l y came up better than i f we had written it. I mn rat recall- exactly a t this point j u s t what thosewre, m I d O ~ ~ ~ ~ o f t h e m .

A: Well, we have kind of a hybrid situation in effect in Illinois ~ ~ a b a u t 4 0 ~ o f ~ j u i b g e ; s a r e a s w c i a ~ , a s a m I , & were appointed. They were appoirrted by the e l m circuit judge. ~ t h m t h e c ~ t ~ t h e q p e r o c R l r t judgeselectedinihallyby thepecrpleandthenonlyzmretainsd, notrunningagainstthe -tian. That q m h n , of -, since I'm a part of it s e m ~ to n r e t o b e m r k h g ~ w e l l . 'Xhrxse~havenotbeenappointad aLthcugh trying to be or nut be- elected muld say it is not working q u i t e s o w e l 1 ~ ~ I ~ d f e e l i t i s . Wrtmwearetalkingabaut elected or appointed, we are really t a M q about elected. The w o n is, h m do ycru define the electorate? B ycru define the electmate as by awxiation preslldents? The leaders of the state g a v e ? The governor? Or do ym define the electorate as all the people, who feel motivatd to speak rn the question? O f course, a lot of pecq?le then point to the law voter kuncruts and say, 'We l l , the electicn c k h m h a t d by a majorily of 25 percent of the rsgi~tered w. And, I guess, my anmw to that muld be that that the other 75 don't feel driven to act by h t the situation is, so it a-y is a-1e to them. I think the vote is a handy t3&q to have available, m l y w, in the form of a veto as as in the form of an a f f h t i v e act. I think a lot of pecrple go to the polls as mu& to vote against as to vute for. So, i f theyarsnotgohgtopol lstowbagainst , i t s u g g e s b t h a t d

are acxqhble.

Q: Fkm today's perspective, in your apinion, what do yau thhk are changes that &auld be made h tbe d t u t i o n , or that wwld be desirable?

A: This irrterview is right a t the beg- of the m e t i t y mt we'rrshasdng, s o I h e w e n ~ t r e a l l y h e a r d f r m ~ ~ f r a m m y c r w n fairly narrow perspctive, I'm not aware of arrything that =---that I muld say it Wt t o be dealt with by a d t u t i m . A d W m , basically, is really the basic canpact. Atrd it is i r r t e n d s d m o r e t o l i m i t t h e g c r v e r n m e r r t t h a n ~ e l & e a n d t o presewe to the pecple what they dcmlt grant to their public lsewants

and gweyrrmeslt. I ' m not, right naw, aware of mything that I d d feel that people ought by cmstikrtional dmge to enlarge upon or ~ ~ t t h s ~ a l r e a d y e n j a y s c r u t o f this d t u t i m ; and, cmnrensely, I don't right now think of b e c a u s e . U d e ~ h E U s s o ~ c h e d i ~ f , thatthepcple ought to take &!smy by d t l l t i o n a l restrictions.

Q: If the electicm were held tcday, W d y m vote to call a new cawention?

A: I ~ t i t m a g o o d i h ~ & I ~ i t i s a g o o d i d a a m. years, at that t h , seertred lib an eternity. Nw, it is the twMrling of an eye. So, -years mimt be a little nu&, but ~ l e who are dissatisfied wuuld say it is an awfully l q time to wait. SO, ma* it is a pretty good mthod.

A: I would say mt that wwuld be possible, but I -It think it is very w l y . I chink it would take really a- behavior m the part of BCXE high gcrvemtllent officials -make thepople feel a need to call a new colmrention. I d m % anticipate an elected official to doamymngthELt-.

A: Not right at the mcansrrt that I see. I might see other mes by wening, but not ncrw.

Q: What are yaur most satisfying and least satisfying mmries of the 1970 constitutional cmrvesrtion?

A: lkhe least satisfying wxld siaply be the need W wntinue xy ather lcrusinsss and professional activities in the opzitirn of the law o f f i e , so mt I WEL& not able to mah it my life's total cmmming passim for the nine months here of session. I can't single c u t arry m i b l e or most satisfying e l a m t s of it. It was al l great. !the people were inspiring p q l e and very capable. I was hpressed--I am frwn da\m&tate 2md I was born & grew up in Madison cBunty, Illinois. Chiago was not held in the uhc& regard, but v b n I - up here and I met the--1 think, wtxe --five delegates E m the city. T h q were uniformly of high quality. They ware united and organized

in their plrsuit of what was for the best inkreat of the c i w of Chicago. n'ley - q l y by -1 legal or ~1:- research. Accc#ulting -ice rn the effects of various pmpsals. The city backed them up and they were unified in looking crut for the city. The city of chicago, and I think largely-seleckd ard sent here, excellent mpreenhtion. I was really impressed and I changed my percRptim of the myor of ckicago. He was an individual doing precisely what his job was to do & .that ms look out for his people.

Q: Were You prepamd for damstate, upstate battles when ycru came here?

A: No. I didn't really anticipate thatparticularly, and I dmlt feel that w e had a lot of Chmstate and upstate battles. There were scrrrrethlyrgs, b u t I t h i n k t h a t i n m a r r y ~ , theywere accQmmOdated. For exmrrple, hcaae rule. It was drafted so that the city of chicago ixkl the of Cook autaaMtically were hcatlle rule units. And else, arrybody, who was a n m b r out of 20,000 or aver in cities and ccRurties w i t h an elected chief executive, I believe. And zmykdy else ccruld k e m ~ so simply by a vote of the pecple. So, Chicago gut wfiat it felt it needed and didnlt ram it dam w e q b d y else1e -t and the rest of state kpt what they felt they needed, but didnlt tie Chiago w i t h a t . We were able to awcananodate all of that. There were athex. instanaeS. Wl, like the right to real estate tax classificatim, &ch was the fact in Cook: ccxlrrty. Rut, it was pmhibited by the coglstitutim. ATld then they wauld dmgm the constitution to &law what had been going on anyway. E u t t o a l l c k ~ i t t o s t a y ~ . 1think.Ulatweavbideamost p h k h l l y and major cmflicts w i t h that kird of an a p c h where we mre able to figure out m m ~ way of aaxmdating e n q h x l y l s needs.

Q: Aria overall, ycrur feelings a h & the cmventian?

A: I wmld not have missed it for the -1d. I d m % think I W d want to do it again.

a: Really? why ncYt?

A: Yes. It was very zufl very tiring. If I wem retiredand hadMthingtod0bu-t that, just take anapartment in Sprinsfield and so forth, I mifPlt see it differently except 1% swmtea yeim older ncrw, I have a little less ensrgy. It was a very tir- experience, but a v~ay, v q p t i f y * experience. People were delightful. Ihe debates vere scmwhms a llttle l a q U y , but hterspwsed with a lot of wisdom.

End of Tape One, side One

Thfsmmwript isthepmiuctof a s e r i s o f taperemrdedintewiw cordmtd by G. axl lam Davis; Kim Hoffmnn; Marilyn Huff; and Timythy J. Jams for the oral H i s t a y office, S q m m state University between S q b r h r 17-19, 1987. Francie Staggs transc=ribed the tape^. L h h S. J& ard ~ k m t h y J. Jams edited .the lmmsmipts.

Readers of the o m l history m i r shcmld bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spaken mrd, and that the interviewer, =tor and *tor saafplt to preserve the informal, mmemationaJ. style that is lnhsreslt in such historical sumes. sanpnm mte U n i w i t y is not re~fpc3llsible far the factual accuracy of the m i r , nor for views apmssed thamh; these are for the to judge.

The mmscript rnay be read, quated and cit& freely. It may not be ~ i n w h o l e a r i n p a r t b y s n y ~ , deckonicormechani.cal, without e i m in writ- fma tha Ora l tory O f f i o e , Sarrga~rrm State Universiw, Sprinsfield, Illhois 62794-9243.

Anne H. m, s p r w i e l d , Illinois, S e p - h h r 18, 1987.

Marilyn Huff, Interviewer.

Q: What do you think of as the major specific cmkibutions of the 1970 m t i t u t i o n ?

A: The end results ard what we were working for? Well, I think probably the Izrwenue Article was the mpst to be wted. It WEUS indeed brought up to conform w i t h pnctice. (laughs) But ~iceilly, asIreCxiL1, m y ~ a r l y ~ a s ; ~ r a a d e ~ a n d a s w e studied the constitution before Can Om--I was a n m h r of the League of Voters and so we m warking on the various problems of the m t i t u t i m for a 1- th. The biggest problem, I think, that we mm facing was the Weme Article. Because Cook QunW was zssessw prclperty at different levels ard ccnrplications ernd so forth. It tom, prabeibly, thatwasthemast importantthingthatanew constitution had t o do was to brhq our taxes, revame, constitutimal requirermMts into line w i t h w h a t m s more pmgnatic than what was ackmlly happeniq. There wens all kinds of debates. The llwstly highly aabated thuqs were, of cmrse, merit selection of judges versu~ election, ad hCrW the legislature was selected. Th- b m things were vary highly debated. But, the changes were negligible as far as f m n old to new. It finally was adopted the way the M l e dxse the sectim that were alternatives.

Zheutherarea, Ithhk, t h a t w a s i m p w c t e u l t a n d i t d i d g e t ~ ~ theaxmdrqarea, ~ t h a t ~ c w u l d g e t a f t e r t h e ~ l ~ m r e easily. Nw, we are facw scans of the d t s of our work in that n e x t ~ r n w i l l b e v o t ~ ~ t o c a l l a ~ ~ ~ t i o n a l corrvenUon or not. That wws not possible, of course, uldsr the old constitution. That was mae of the problems. we wlere fighting during the 1950's and 1960's was that it w a s so difficult ta mend &we d d nwer agree on dlhg a corrventim. It was a difficuit vote, The ~llajority vote was high and it wzns hard to get. So, we did the zmmdhg process and we updated crur Revenue Article. I'd thosewerethell~3rehprtmtthingsthathadtobedone.

A: I ~ t h h g s t h a t e w s h a p p a n i r r g ~ t ~ r w t a u r ~ . Y e s . So, I'd suspect that that if we are not abiding by the intent of the constitutim-either there is a mistake in the interpretatim or them are those that had overriding reasons f m pcple in gavenmrant who want to get mound it. And, yc~z kncrw, yau always am. W e did it with the old constitution. W e got araund pravisicm, you see.

Anne H. Evans 2

Q: Can yau cite a specific q l e ?

A: I think the civil ri ts thing is to be--the B i l l of Rights part of our const 4" tution was s q p a d to have guararrteed those r i g h t s W m l e & w - b h a v e e a r s r e d m e F n a w a y . Made it not as mforcezble as we had hoped it would be. Of course, W recmt problems with the auditor general in the Sqmrm Cbmt. I was one of those who felt that the auditor gaeral had the job of making sure that the fhmcial respnsibility so forth are being taken m of by all levels of gov-, al l -e of gcrverrrment. The supmme CcRlrt seals to feel that they are not Ilncluda, So, I feel that there are those two places that specificaLly would 1 have been aware of. NW, I don't work in gw-t. 1 had worm in my am profit organization in the information services. So, t o scgns extsnt, I1ve kept up with a t is happenhq, but I havenlt had arry practical, p ~ ~ t i c , day t o day kFnd of use of the constitution cwzept in the area of telling rwaple what it says--digging out what it says On certain areas.

A: Oh, I'm sure that if you did a poll or an interview thbw all the way & the state, mid f M s@gestims for change frcsn- e, but they WQUldnlt all agree (laughter) to w h i c h charrge they wanted it.

Q: Do yau have suggestions for change?

A: ah, I donlt hw. If you d d beef up the wording samehow so that saw of the intention of our w e n t i o n w a s cleamr, and so the govanrmeMt COWXd do things. I Im on the side of the merit selection, for -le, of judges. So, I would ccoltend, probably, that if tht.lre were a new aanstittrtimal m e n t i o n , I c\lould be 1-irq my delegates to be sure &work for that. Eut, I have a feel* that that a d be m, also, w i t h an -t. It doesn't have to have a cawemtian. I 'm not sasi t ive enough to it because I haven1 t been working with it. I was on the Fdlcatiorl Qcnanittee and I hwre mrked a s a m o f 'kheschoolboardsime~axwenticm, sathat f did s e e a n d p r a c t i c e c e r t a i n ~ t h a t o c c u r r e d a s a r e s u l t of crur rquhmmt for a state Board of m t i m and who hired state superinbkhmb. I think if I ware an idealist, I would say, ' W e l l , that hagnlt %mcked cut quite as I imagined it wmld because the State Boarr?L of mwatial does not seak to have much pa~ler to domuch."

the appintmnt of the state superintendent, and then his officre is Mnd of aepenllent on what the legislature says it is going tobeHoing. O f c c r u r s e , i ta l lwFrrdsuptodep8ndmnvoneyfmthe legislature m y . So, the legislatum really m i n s the grard Baed of Fdwatim for the state. Overa l l , they make those decisims or many of them. So, I dm1t Iacrw what the - to that is. I did not strlrport m elected Board of tio on, and I think that the legislature did not set it up as an elected board for the very mason ~ t t h g y f e l t t h a t ~ ~ ~ e l e c t e d p e o p l e w h o ~ l y ~ t h e final wmi on state policies aver the public sdmols. They didn't want any a m p t i t i o n frcon other elected officials who cuuld cite their mandate, you see. It is hard to say d c h would work because we have

too many elected officials rww in a lot of ways, and so as a ~ l ~ m n d a t e s a r e ~ ~ b l u r r e d ~ ~

really hmm who is -file in sasrre of these cases. What I guess 1 % .trying to say is I%t the State Board of mucation, with the app- m p r i n e , have not mFsdR the big huge djlffermce in my exprim that we khd of hoped it wrxlld. And, yet 1% rnzrs it has dane SOTB very conshwkive things and I 3acrw that*, basically our public ScihOols are run at the 1- level. me local b a X L a 3 run the day-tcday policies &md the local super- tabs m the d a y - M y work of runnirrg the schools. So, unless we fm cnmdves--the fi@t w i t h the state has always w i t h , 'Well, if you are mandating prqmm for us to teach, yau'd better pay for t h m . I 1 (law) Well, w seem to have as there was sort of m advemary re2lction ta atate legislative regulations. So, maybe another layer of regulatoxy bodies, like the State Bo2trd of Educatim and all is just more--it probably has to focus, and I knm it does, the work of edhzcation in the state. It gives us a place for, clearirqhmw for z d an agenq that can settle diffwences and help to advise. I would think that it probhly has worked that way very W l *

Q: Cauld the ISwation Article have been w r i t - in su21 a way ta . .

A: No*

A: A constitution, if you could have done w i t h o u t an Education Article and ths state legislature could have done that it wanted to do with educatim as it has w i t h hi* ectucation, in any case, without a constihztianal lMndate. Wlt, I think that having one a d if we had decided to d t it as one of the delegates did propose, just to d t the Elducation Article all together, we would have upset possibly a lot of decisions that had been rnade on the basis of those pmvisions. In sane cases, it would have bean threatening to people to have dropped it, who don't understand, ~ Q U know, and W also feel that it ahould have a constitutional matdate or wb-. I don% la#rw that we could have written it any differently. You have to write a constitution In ~ ~ t h a t l a y s d c r w n p e r h a p s s ~ ~ l i k e ~ d i d ~ the way of the state bard, but that doesn't spci£y becawe the pople, thxx& their representatives in the legislature, are going to make decisims m y . So, I think it is nat possible to legislate in tha constitution. Yau shmldnlt do it atymy.

A: Well, I don't t h b k I I d . 1% not sure whethar a t is just because of pride of authorship. I'm sue it isn't because I haven't felt. . . We didn't h o w * When we wdjcrurraed, many of us said, Well, there it is, but we don't kncrw a t it nmm until it is jnterprsted and until it is worked with for awhile. We weren't sure whatwhaddme andwhstherwe haddone it right, butwe- for the hest, of ccrurse. I think that at this point I wcmld say, Wo, eighm, ~ y e a r s i s n a t ~ l y ~ t i m e t ~ ~ ~ ~

Anne H. EMns 4

that w could work. . . . The mmtitution is fairly flexible. Perhaps more f l d l e than we wanted it t o be in smrve cases. I .think that we still have the optim of gettirg mer&mts to it and prhapa thatismycalyconcernthatouramsndingprocess, exceptforthe Legislative Article, is depesrdervt on aur putting pressure on crur legislators to pass FoPgcsed anrenzbaents. I don't think, by and large, people, gannrrally, across the fitate are that amma of constitutional nee% until they are bmqht up to it really given a big adlucational klnd of "Pi"" i n o r d e r t o m e t k e u p t b e i r ~ a s t o what want. ~;i8omhavenotbeenforcedupoapeop;ls~make c t m q 2 L the cmstimim; w, therefore, - -It p ~ ~ f r r r m ~ g r a s s r o a t s f o r t h e l e g i s l a t u r e t o n r a k e ~ chaqae that aaae of us feel are good and sarae are, obviously, highly debatable and at least a few are Mt. Wrt those could happen. I have faith that eventually if it is mppased t o happen, it w i l l . The cutback mmdmmt d c h changed the legilslature. I was on the side of

A: W e l l , I voted for it -we did it, ard I tbhkpmhbly i f I were in mother ammticn, I WWiLdnlt change it. If it cam~a up for amthe decision, I U d n l t change it. Hmwer, you have to set ldna of tims, I think, that it you are going t o allax -18 *-that was a mtpmnise, as I mmembr. It was p m p w l by th. amm3hg ccarrmittee, the ccnrmittee that brought this to the wnvmtim that we have initiative in all areas of our ccnstitution sa that the pmple cwld brkg men&mts, Gaud by p t i t i o n and refemdun bring ~ t o b e v O t B d m d i ~ y w i ~ g o i n g ~ t h e legielahre for all the areas of the camtitution. There was a lo t of qpaitim t o that fmn the peaple who were more qmpathetic to the legislature doing it. So, Mare was a cmprcrrnise on that. I thought it was a w i s e ane a t the time. And part of that -e was that w e wmld then give the pcple a to call a aonstitutioml ~)msntim at regular h M s . I think twanty years seemed like a l ongenough tba t tha t . Ithwcthatwemuldhavechangeditto

tbkty, I suspecrt, but I don't believe that was even dabat&. We just thought twerrty years was the enaugh. W e figured that twenty yaars like a long time, and it does t o erverybody, I think, looking ahead. And, yet it gozs awfully fast as we al l have disccwered. (1aughS) So, I think it is hard to say. I ' m not sure whether I would appmve--I know, probably, I would not vote for a new wmmticm at this the, but that doesn't mean that the people who feel that there should be &ages &ouldn1t be able to vote for it one way or the ather way. I would probably stick with it,

A: Qh, well, l e t s see. The e x c i a t h were tcrward the a, I think. WwtbatstayinmymSndrrrostviviUym.Uletimes ~ w a ~ d e b a t i n g a b a u t ~ i s s u a s t h a t w r r u l d b e i n c 1 u d e d i n t h e package of the cmstituticm and hew it would be p m t e d to the people for voting. The =it selectim of judges had beMI vut& in o n c e a n d t h e n v o t e d a u t t h e ~ ~ , ardsowewereatan ~ a r a i t l o o k e d ~ i f ~ ~ f t h e ~ e s t h a t ~ ~ f u s ~ t e d would be ao buried that it wculd be impossible for the people to make a choice. So, there was a group that got together there a*-right a t the very last - on scane of this, as I recall, I belime it was the Judicial Article that m s be- s a t into the final vote, which s m t it off ~ be printed as part of the body of the constitutim. ' I h e o n l y w a y w e ~ d c h a r v J e ~ w a s t O V o t e n o o n that question, muse we had not yet agreed haw we wrruld present these highly debatable anas t o the people for vote to t a b a choice. A bunch of us got wther ard said, tUtfs tzy to stop this so that we can work out a way of pmsen&~tiwl.~~ We got the votes wether 2md did it. W who wem in favor of the election of iudaae were out cel~brating their vicstary that thsy thought they had: h, the n E x t m o ~ w e h a d p u l l e d t o g e t h e r ~ v o t e s s o t h a t ~ c o u l d v o t e . That was exciting to see that happen. That was w h a t led to the presentation of two different alternatives, the alternatives cutside of the body. Instead of having a package of the constitutim that was mnplete w i t h an alternative outside that said, Y f you vute for that, yes, t h a it w i l l replace -th.ing that is im the package. I think it was a much clearer pmsentatim for pople to vote on to see the ba t h h g ~ together outside the p a w and get them-so, the debate that was exciting was this very pmblm. That was pmbably the mst -it* part of the cornrention.

It wae my first -y into politics. I had mer nul for any elective offioe arrd it was qute [an v i e n o e l . I was an h&pmdmt. I hadn't any affiliation. I wted in the past in both primaries. I was not d I've n m x worked for either party, so I considered myself an independent. A n d b e c a u s e I h a d b e e n ~ t h e b o a r d o f m y l o c a l l ~ , I hadn't been active. 1 h a w to be nonpartisan in ahost weqthbg. So it was an exciting t h e t o just run for this ad then tobselecbdwasquiteathril l . Ienjqedthewlzolething. The good and the bad times were all new 2md exciting for me, There were timea when we sat and groaned thmugh d t t e e sessions an3 everybody had to have samthing to say m warythirq and yc~z get bred w i t h that. The decisim-making process and the political process was very

a: Thank you!

Preface

% - i p t i s t h s ~ o f a ~ i e g o f t a p e ~ i n t e r V i e w s ccx&ct& by G. Cullam Davis; Kina HoffWum; Marilyn Huff; m d Tjmnthy J. JQES for the Oral History office, Sarrgaarron State University between 17-19, 1987. FYamie Saggs transcribed the tapes. Linda s. Jett and T h o t h y J. J- edited the transmi*.

W i l l i a m L. Fay was barn in EauClaire, W-in on A residmt of Ja-ille, he the 49 Illinois Camtitutimal mentim. Mr. Fay served m the Judiciary Ccaranittee,

F&aders of the oral history m i r shcruld bear h mSnd that it is a transcript of the spoken wrd, and that hrkmiewer, narrator and editor acmght to the informal, -tianal style that is inhereslt in sudr historical saxmas. Sangmn State University is not responsible for the factual -cy of the mmoir, nor for views

therein; these are for the reader to j m .

The -2pt m y be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be in whale or in part by arxy neans, eleckmic or rrsd.ianicdL,

without. permission in wrim fmn the Oral History Off ice, Sangmnon State University, Springfield, 1llinois 62794-9243.

willimn my, Spn:irqfield, Illinois, sept&xr 17, 1987.

Q: Can you tell ma what ycru think mm .ths major specific achiammts of the 1970 Cbnstitutim?

A: Well, it's a great hpwemnt wer the old 1870 m t i k r t i m . one, because it's more streamlined and it is also easier to

mmd. That was ane of the primary -1- w i t h the old d t u t i o n and got to be so in the a t e W of went it. That wasn't a good th+g. It was ahc& impossible to amesld it. We now have made it easier by a three-fi- vote-60 percent and that applies to the start of a ccmstitutimal in the General Asaermbly ard also that's the measure for EqprcNal. I ehFnk that's one of the big things. It's a more flexible docmmt. -10 can modjfy it as I expect they w i l l and there have been one or lxm significant

since the 1970 &u&ikrtion. !€!he main me being s ~ l ~ dhlxicrts which I was for in the cmmtia. It was w t t e d m a separate subnission, I beliwe, as I d l , and didn't carry then, but later it ms adqtel. I think also .the I m d G a v s m m e s r t A r t i c l e i s a g r e a t ~ b e c a u s e i t l r s t t h e n e e d s o f our urban amas. Witherut that, we m a d have had a new (Xlllgtitution because of Mey. That's the d y mmm~ it m i e d up there inQook~becausetheDaley~eop1ewarrted. that . Andthey have it naw.

In fact, in my ciw of Jackswnrille, the League of Wmm T7oteY.s and a panel of citizens are explorw the advisability of trying t o brirYg us ut&r .Ule haferule prrwisim. You see, it does nut ap ly to cities unde~ --five thoward unless they adopt it, brrt we think it wauld be ~asier far lmtihq ~~urposes. For exaple, we are faced with the big problem IWW of an antiquated sewer system and the EPA is breathing duwnournecks. That's methirqthat'smadepossible by the cmstitution. I also think the Renrerrue Article w a s a great irclpmvmmt. We did away with the old prclperty tax, Which was a fraud. It made a m q b d y violator& because nobcdy declared persmal pmprty i f they - to pay. We f a t off durhg t h e ~ m a n a t t e q t t o p u t a c a p a n t h e ~ t a x . Iwasvery muchqpsdtothat. ~ h g a r r y c a p a n i t ~ u s e I a r g u e d a n d 1 still Miwe that's abaut as fair of a tax as there is. So, I thMc the Article is an impmvenmt.

The B i l l of Righb Article is a great Smprwamt. I t h h k we have crns of the finest articles on the individual liberties and B i l l of Rights of arry state constitution. My mm field i n the ~ i t u t i o n , I nmtimed, as chairman of the Judiciary Caaannittee. lq biggest disappokbmt was that 4B, was merit se ldm of judges was

W i l l i a m Fay

nut adopkd. I am still all for that. At the the, I am almorst sure we could have settled for a =it meldan plan for Sqmm Cburt and appellate ccrurt j-. The Illinois State Bar AsEKX:iaticm, more or less, gave us that feeling. I thhk i f -Id have gone that mute, weld haw had a t least part of it t a b n am of. But was a f e e l ~ a n d I ~ i n i t t h a t B ~ i m a r y ~ l e a n = j n t h e urbanmwiththeirtrialCQUTt8. Nmtkre1sanwengmaterneed for it w i t h the Gmy1- situation in Chiago. Four B, cxlr plan was carried osl a special suhaission in Coak County and the collar counties. It w defeated dawnstate. Zlnd in hindsight, I think, we should hewe submitted 4B d made it awlicable circuit by circuit and let the circuits decide. Our failure, w l y , was that they didn't realize the vast difference between the urban and the dcrwnstate areas.

A: No. No. The separate suhissionwas fine, butwe should have sepxmtely e t t e d it district by district, so that himgo cmld have had it and duwnslxte d d have cut the election system. In the axea where I came fman, where p q l e b a v their carrdj.dates for judicial office, the election s p t e m hasn't worked too badly; but up in Chicago, for exanple, yau elect over a hundred judges a t one t i m s ~ n a b o d y c r ~ u l i n t e l l i g e n t l y ~ t h e v w t e , mq7nededfarmore.

Now, our judicial =it selection that was a term that ms just a kind of a good handle to put on it. It's more or less adopted frrrm the Missouri plan and in Missouri they did just put on explaining it. They submitted it to the people in separate districts. Nw, they are, of ccrursle, in M i m i they have the appointive system for judges and there &her parts that dl1 have the elective system. I really kind of believe that one of our fail- ard there's no daubt it didn't cane up-we didn't do a perfect job. One of cxlr failures was a failure t o recognize the different needs of the rural m and the urban areas. W e faund at in gun -1, for -, they need t o h a v e g u n ~ l i n t h e c i t i e s , a r d y o u I I W T l [ t l o r a e d g u n ~ l i n t h e camtry mdyauget a r e b l l i c m . Bmybdtywantedthe right tobear arms. And that was a very dwisive issue nnd their friend, Wilson, whowmfmrmrlyaccrunselwithJohnDeem, a n d I s e e h h h F l o r i d a enrery winter. He came up with a cmpmnke solution and eveqb&y went for it. I didn't go for it because I thcrught it didn't mean anythiq, but he satisfied b t h sides by say* in effect the right t o b e a r ~ s h a l 1 n o t b e i n h : i r y S e a ~ ~ a s r e q u i r e d b y t h e p o l i c e pcrt\lier of the state. And to me that e l y didn't nrean anything and hand- l aws have bm upheld up h skokie, for imhme, because of the police of ths state aver it was necressary. But people have differerrt feelimp arvjl differerrt w.

A: Y @ s , there are scaas. I ' m & so sum that the Gemad. lwanbly ozagh.ttobeinsessimasoftenastheyare. I 1 v e g d A a a l i t t l e -id of a l l of the statutes that they pass. (laughs)

William Fay 3

A: Yes, I e x p & that's right. I dmlt see snyUlincr basically wroq w i t h c # l r ~ ~ I d m l t s e e q q ~ ~ b h a v e a r w t h e r convention. I would still like t o see =it selection, as far as the judiciary is but I think i f it's go- to pass, it's got to m thrcRagh the Gerzeral AMaibly.

Q: wit ycru don't see that as being a part of the cmstitutim?

A: Oh, yes. It ought to be in the cmstilxtion. I see it a part of the cmstituticm by an m m d n m t initiated in the Assenibly. mat's my wnlchg rm that.

A: Well, that hits me closest because 1 am a lawyer, and I was primarily c m c a m d with the judiciary i n the collverrtian.

A: No, I would nut.

Q: Can you elaborate?

A: Well, I think aythbg that's needed to hprare cxlr basic charter t x t ~ be acc~npli&ed by amm%mt thrmgh .Uls General Assembly. I think cn the whole that we did a Fnatty gmd job. I'm not trying to saythatwedidaprfect jab, but i t m a g r e a t h p m w e r t h e old me. The spcial sul=anissiorrrj msally saved the day. The one on capital -. We had a lot of peaple in the m e n t i o n that wanted to abolish capi- pmhhnmt. I never felt that way. I think there are W capital punishent is still appropriate. AppamrUy, a great majority of the voters felt the same way. The voting age, I guess, that's bem Faatty well taken m of by the United States ccnstitution. So, we didn't have to mrry about that.

Q: When you think back m it ncrw, was the to mccmsider a new cawention frum .then, ms that a good idsa?

A: Well, h ~ t w e n t y y e a r s s e m s a p r e t t y s h a r t t i m a t o m e . It's hard for rrve at ny age, lonking back on it, it just like yesterday. I dm% )olauwhether that's a good idea or mt. It may not be a bad idea as lang as therels not any big irnrolved m Lsuhlitt* the question.

Q: well, there are states that have shorter t h and wane that don't haveatrym@mnmkanthis.

A: Yes. Oh, I dmlt i3dnk it's too bad.

Q: What are your special mmories a b u t the ~ t u t i ~ Cornresrtim? Bath good and bad?

William Fay 4

A: Well, we had a very strermcrus struggle w i t h the Laley organization. Thsy voted as a solid bla. The only W l y independerweammgthedelegates -that regicmwemthe independent delegates. There were a mrmber of remarkable inclepandet delegates, like Wiseburg and and Fkmk C i c e r o an2 people like that and Gertz, butbyandlargethechicagodelegates justgotthewordand --it was a solid bl& of votes.

Q: Hcrw marry of those did yau have on ymr Judiciary mtte?

A: Well, my vice dmimmwas one. Theywere a h a r t equal, but not quite. I wfll say this, thm#~, for m, and as I look back m it, what ane fellcrw told me when we wwre over at the spa we used to retreat.

Q: Ekcuse me. (TLlmed off mer)

A: He just said this. He said, "If they disagree with ycxlr position onalmast

myor and that's just the way they opmated. They- tough fighters but I them, too. Ard, I think it was true, gemrally, and oh, there were a few eX13Bpticms. Wlt by and large, I think the delegates got: along pmtQ well with a few exceptions. Iwm not going t o n a m ~ a n r y m .

A: Dh, it was really greater than I expect&. It ms a very enriching ~urperi-. I dm't h a w as I wrmld want to go thmqh it again, but it was a gnat v i m .

Q: D i d you have mixled feel- when it was wer?

A: No, I didn't reilly have any mixed feelings. I w e n t Q U ~ and canrpaigned as hard as I could far the adoption of it. I'm pmud ta say that my ccrunty prcbably had the highest aff htive vote for ratificatian. Wb always had a lut of people there who supported the ideaof anewcharbr. T h e s e w a m ~ w t e m ~ f o r t h e p r i r n s m a v e r s sortof. Thesponsorwhogcrtmehtothewholethingwas~&ty Ziegler, who is a professor of political science at Illinois College, She's retired racrw, but &e deserves the credit for whatever credit ycxl

dotoqetmemppedupinthisthing.

Q: I'd like you to talk mre about your ~?lq?erience as c h a m of the J'udiciary Qcaranittee. Are there highlights of that v i e n c e that cclnretomind?

A: Y e s , there are. The nurtber cme highlight was aur counsel, Professor Rube Collin, fram the University of Illinois Law Schcml. He m s of hmluable assistance to the camnittee. We had two brilliant young Ten an the COBmnj, t tee who were on my team, yau might say, calling for a merit selection. One of them m s Wayne Whallen. His wife, mula Wolff, as you probably knw, she's an amisor to the governor m, I thhk, still. Wayne was a very bright, yxmg lawyer. Hews

W i l l i a m Fay 5

now, I think, with Scaven and Arps, a big New York law firm as head of thej, Mcago office or in their Czlicago office. Hers done very well. The other yamg man w a s Jeffrey Iadd, who was then nut a lay.er, but ~ s ~ i ~ m a u r c c a r r m i t t e e i n S p ~ ~ t o g o ~ l a w s c h o o l a n d he is ncrw a very pmmhmt m a b e r of the Mcago bar and a prtmr in a large law fh. I think he's on the Chicago Tramit Authority or sawkhhqsiznilartothat. H e l s d m L e ~ w e l l . Ihavebeangladta t3eethe~~errtsthattheseycxmgrnentake.

Our vim chairman, Harold Nwteman, became a judge. Hb was state's -tor after the cawemtian a n l then he becams a chicago judge and is u n f m t e l y nuw decew!d. The secmbq of the cmrverrtim, a very bright black v m m . She's nc~w a judge. I can't came by her n a n ~ immsdiately. NiCholscm. Otis Nicholson, yes. Otis gave me lots of trcRzble, particularly with the Judiciary Inquiry Board, but I always knew where she s-. The blip- nwer for =it selection. They felt that is an elitist thing. Tcan Hunter w a s a very fine black lawyer. H e was an elderly man. I had a lot of respczt for Tcan. But they never cauld swallm the idea of amintive judges. They thought that that would be adverse to blacks. I d m % think it is, but that was their feeling.

Andthentherewasanothermanmtheccnrmi.ttee, c l ~ Y O r t y , w h o was a f a m w Eram uve~ arand Mortm, ~llinois. I never w i l l foqet him. We used to have aom before crur camnittee the justices of the Supmnw and pmmhent of the judiciary. I nwer w i l l foryetclamnce. H e w a s ~ t o t h e c h i e f j u s t i c e ~ d a y a n d h e says, ' W w judge, he says, ''1 put m nry one leg at a time just l h you do.''

Q: Did he really?

A: (laughter) It ms just 1 i h he was another farrrrer.

Q: ah, that's -. A: And that's the way whesl it cmne -. We had, I nmnhr, Paul S k , ncrw a United States seaator nmnhg for president. He was a big help to our camnittee and he had a lo t of advice. W e held a lot of hearings.

Q: Oh, that's right.

A: H e was lieutanarYt gave~nor at that the. S e e , w s w a s during the ogilvfe wdministrmtion. That was one of the things w h i c h we tried to straighten out. So when they have a governor of one party, the lieutenant governor of another, and I'm nut sa sure that is m r w out. Themy it's set up.

Q: Well, it didn't seem to work out with Walker. Ycnn had them both Fn the party. Y o u just had the wrong M in the wrmg place.

W i l l i a r n Fay 6

A: That's rimt. So, I don't think we have eliminated emugh elective offices. If youwant toget a newcmstitution a-, you c 2 m ' t m a k e t o o m a r r y ~ c a l ~ .

Q: What W mes would you like to have eliminated?

A: Well, we didn't do away w i t h the election of the appellate court clerks and that was a step in the right directian. Oh, I danlt lacrw.

ran into a problem w i t h coroners. We tried to eliminate coronas

a: Eliminate t h a n a l l together?

A: Yes, just havemadical exanhem. I'll tell you another failure. effort was to take the mmawatim out of politics as

l w h a s w e c a u l d a n d a g a i n l n o d e l t h a t m ~ i . MisEwurihasme of Une finest mnservation ccaarmulssicms in the whole Wnited States. Oum has always been a political football. We made an effort to get an irdepe;ndsrrt -tiun cufmni~isian for Illinois. It carried lA'mughthe--Ccwnai-, 3xrtwasdefeatedonthe floor largely because scane of these w i l d l i f e group o p p e d it. I almp thought had saw caraectim with depmhmt peopler but anyhow I think that was a failure. It was one of my disappohbmts. m y enough, I bught the Missouri plan for judges and the Misscglri plan for crmsenmtiun. I got beat an b t h of than.

Q: well, maybe we wwm't ready for Missuuri then?

A: No, I guess not.

Q: Y e - What crthw-, ~ p u ~ b a c k , ncrwthat I've gat- ycsl g c s q . I'll bet yau have a lot ltrore m i e s a b u t what w e n t on in either sessions or . . . A: Well, wecmduckdthemountof~ingsarrd~irus.saraurrdthe state. And I think that was helpful, p r k i l y , to get the public intemst. There was a gmat p b l i c interest in it, and I think that's p a r t o f t h e ~ t h a t i t m s ~ f u l .

Q: IB ycw Ulirik that people w i l l vote for a new m e n t i m ?

A: Idon'tthinkso. Ithinkpoplearereascaablysatisfi&. I h a m % heElrd any public mtcq for it. The only editorial that I We saen saying that-& that's still because thq want lnerit selection of judges in Chi-. The TribYne said that done is amugh for a new cawention. I dm% feel that way because I think it would- the same fate before unless it's m t e d thmqh the Gamml Assembly ernd on a district by district -is, and then I think -Is a chance for it. I ' m still for it.

I realized ycru find out where your friends are and, of course, I was the only candidate fmn a little c~unw crslled Morgan. We were teamed with-Oxmtyuverhere. Whmwestartedaut, themwere twelvecandidates forthe f i r s t primary sort of thing. Thathey pidmd four forthe runoff, and Iwasthe d y m ~ e of thetwelve f m

This mmscript is the of a sar i88 of tape recorded irrtewiews by G. Cullcan Davis; Kim Hoffmnn; Marilyn W f ; and Thwthy

J. Jones for the O r a l History Office, Sanpnn State University between 17-19, 1987. Fratacie transcY.ibea the tapes. l%Aa S. Jett arrd~imathy J. Jones edited- transcripts.

of the oral hjstory -ir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of l3m spohn word, and that the intervi-, narrator and editor wt to pmseme the hfd, amematiQnal e l e that is inhererrt in such historical sources. sangarm S b t e University is not respans*le for the factual a a m q of the marair, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The mmsaript may be read, qwtd and cited freely. It may not be mpmdm& in whole or in part by any electronic or med.lanic211, withack permission in writing frrm the O r a l History O f f i c e , Sangamrm State tRu-ity , Springfield, Illhis 62794-9243.

Dwight Friedrich, Sprhqfield, ~ l l i no i s , Septmbr 18, 1987.

Q: What do p see as the major achiemmmts of the 1970 M t u t i c m ?

Q: Y o u am do it in either order.

A: Well, it is a matter of scane of the thirrgs I that did pass. Now, men the people who - m the opposite side agree. It Is I w t a t o l d y ~ ~ ~ s o t h i n g , butIthinknraybe-wehadalutofpeoplein t h e o c a r v e n t ~ o n W h o h a d n o e ~ q 3 e r i e n c e i n ~ w h a ~ , and they- strictly thsor*. When ycru get right dam to the nit* gritty, it's a matter of theory. It either works or it doesn't.

For exanple, the state debt. WB had m h u b t d l y an antiquated provisicm abcrut state debt. Arrythirrg over $250,000 had to be s u h i t k d to the ~ l e . Well, of ccrurse, that was a hrmdred years old arrd it was not realistic. Wrt, they said, WI, that's home zlnd buggy.I1 They w i l l surely be sure w i l l mer put the state in debt unless it's an extx-em emxgamy: I said, %ey, that's not realistic at all muse w i t h logrolling arxl ' else, and we've gone farther in debt every year since 1 s - in 1971. And it b obvious I'll vote for a b m 3 issue i f yclu are go- to put a -m-inmym. Y a u ~ a b a L T t t h e b m d i s s u e . mat goes on a l l of the th. And it did and .thatls the way it is. Missouri has a stxi-in fact, the people have to evm vote for tax arrd werything else over thtzm. I4 iscxr i f Miwe it or nut, is -ing right ncrw, ec~mny, -, and amyWmg else ard Illinois ia in a simp. So, it is not all bad. Anyway, that was ans of the mistakes.

Anothescmofthembhhs-natjustbyafl~ardthattsthe awdatory veto. I was an the EecWive Article h n m i t t e e and Jack Isacoff frrrm Car3xardaLe was our advisor. W e wwre talking abaut the differeswt: vetoes. Before it was either total veto or none. So, we put the line itemveto, which is great. '&ls united States ought to have it and we'd be in mud.1 ktbr shape. That was a good me. ?he reductionveto, - I s nothing - w i t h that either. Wzt: the ammktory veto, Isamff d d , 'We l l , there are t* when a bil l ccanes to the goverrrment & it's gat a technical thing.I1 Hehas no choice. You either ham t o sign it and there is a flaw in it or he has to veto it. If he &d just c l ~ a r up SCXE little technidi

Dwight Friedrich

Elect- the state superintendent of schools. It always saunds good when ycxl say, '%ke,- out of politics.m' I said, "Laok, at 1-t n c r w t h e s t a t e ~ ~ ~ i s ~ m ~ i m p o l r t a r r t i n Illhis than eduakian.I1 One of the main funcrtions of gwenrment is toeducateaurkFds. W e ~ ~ ~ r e m w a e y f o r i t . mare ~ a t h b d o f o u r s t a t e ~ , ~ o f c r u r l o c a l t a ~ e ~ g o forstatabudget. And, y m w a r r t t o k t m i t c r v e r t o w r r a e g u y ~ t i s

by - people. And they said, I I O h , yes, that will take it cut of politics.'1 It has done exactly the rwrerse. Education has gons dam hill. Ncrw, wen a legislator calls the state superinterdent of -1s and you are 1- if he returns your d l . If youwrite a l e t you nwer get an answer. It is rrore political. It's in-house plitics naw and it is uxrtcruchable. Yeru as a citizen have no say abcertit. Ycrucan1thav8nothingtoEiayabcRztwhoyaur.Ectate

is or who's on y w r state -1 board or a q t h i x q else. They are all appointed. It was a mistab.

J. Lester Word, who weus the great-he was head of an A.A. me th, and he said, "8cry, this is the w. Ietls get education cu t of politics and get it up.'' He has since told me, 'Well, it tuned mt to be a hell of a mistake, k t the horse had already been stolen." I havetr iedtxmorthreeth~be l ieve lae , youtalk* lobbyists, they really lean on legislators. You try to in the constitutim m, they are the qmaw i ~ E % Z are. I can stmw you in area G -lay& of the of Edtucatim - strictly political. They didn't Wee it out of politim, they just tmk it away fLran you as a voter. I blame gwenmne3.rtwithmle. ' I h i s i . s t h e ~ ~ ~ w e l v e g a t t o d o i s our menre fkrrm the people who have no voice in it at all. They just pay their bi l l and & their kids to -1. That's the m l y thing theyhaveachanceedo.

In Chicago, we've got ale Republican. Ncrw, ycxl lacrw &bout the Repblicans in Mcago. They have no voice m the hause or senate at all em^@ me. Inmy area, up until this year, we hati t m Republican qresmtatives arrd a -1ic.n -tor. W e l l , that m y nut em bad to^, M t W ' s a g u y d h a d j u s t b e e n a L z t b e a t - h i s h i n s cnrt ~ m g b b e a t m f e e l ~ t o m e a r F r a n k W m o r ~ t o g e t sawthiq dme in Sprbqfield. Ncrw, it didn't bather me as a -ti- because whawer carne h ths hause had a prablem. But I art feel canforkablegoingtoPaul S h o r K e w r y Graynerw. Why ah au ld th ery l i s t en tom e be c ause the y~I ' ve be e nout~ j_ns to bmt that? I have no plaoe to go. No place. Before w i t h the house & ~ ~ w a y i t ~ a n d a c t u a l l y ~ t - h a e l d m w a s ~ e r , 1m.s in the m t e and I mked w i t h three rep-ti- regardless of politics. Sawtime6 lxi Darazmt8 and sometines Repblicans. It did not affect the legislative process. But: for the irdividual cit izen, if he ms a hmxat, he CQUld go to his -t ard ths &publican c a r n a t o m e a n d ~ ) o n . I ~ t h a t t h i s w a s - - d h a t I ~ m s a y i n g i s t h e ~ y ~ t b E l t h a s b e a n ~ u r d e r t h s g u i S e o f ~ a r e g o i n g t o save monsy, -Ill a r t dam the mrmbeY. of bi l l s to save mmwy. It didn't do it at all. So far, I ' m nut enthusiastic about the irrtiative method because you can get a cause and p s a ~ guy like, what's his nams, a n d g e t t h e p r e s s ~ y c r u a r d ~ t h a s n o r e l a t i o n s h i p t o g o o d or bad. That me dxqe was the mst significant charrge a the l e g i s l a t h article & so far, as far as I ' m cmcemed, it was m v e ra- than prudent.

And the judicial thirKJ, I think w e should h a w 1 was n& for the appobbmt of judges, l x t we gave them rather broad pcrkllers and now ahxta th i rdo f the judges inthestateareal~paintedanywaywith judges. can amint the assdate j* and so an. They have b e c c a r r e v w y ~ . I can te l lyc rum~aud i t t h ing ,wh ichwe created the office of auditor gmeral and they say that the rrrorat~y the attorneys pays in are not public Aznds. Y c u can't practice law in Illhis unless they pay into this. P l u d x s s , t h q say that Is public firnds, )xrt the nmey lawyers pay into it is not public funds because they said so. In these exact words, yau )oEcrw. So, I think we've got the judges h l a t e d axugh that I dcmlt think that's good. They've talked abut sepmtion of pmms, is rn tme separatim of -. IU1 the three branches are h k d q d a t o n t h e o m z m . me lagislatum passed w i d t i o n for the executive & the judicial. The garemor appoints peaple to do the affairs. The attmneygenera3.canbringdmgesagaixlEttyautohsarthecases. I mean, it's a l l back and forth. So, they say, I W l , what's mine is

D w i g h t 'Friedrich 5

A: Well, this is a little raun&y hut it's in the rdnuks arryway if yauwarrt to read thewhole eixty-sk pages of it. Well, kirrd of like Benjamin Franklin, I think, it's amiraclem cam up w i t h snythirur a t all muse you had, as I say, a t least half of ths -18 wia no badqmwd in garenmrent at all. No reflection m them as individuals, I # t t i t ~ ~ y e a r s ~ f ~ l f o r ~ b e c a u s e t h e y m r e g o h q t o ~ l c m c # ! t u t h e m a t h a r s b r i n g ~ i n .

Q: W a s i t , on the whole, a very positive exprime?

A: Oh, yes. A little frigh-.

a: Frightening, in what sense?

A: W l , if you'd read the prroposals, they'd w=are ycru to death. And, of came, anybody cmld make a pmpoeal and just smibble it out here euvd it's a proposal, yau lmuw, scesre of them are pretty w i l d . One of the ref- things was, Al -, dm had been a great r a d i a k l c i v i l r i g h t s m , andIthinksarnsof thethingsthathad happmed with him beforre. I -t, "pw, we are really in for it, He~avery i rr t e l l i gen tmanandhewasnot~ca l there . H e w a s positive in what he believed and he's an the &the tada~.~' wlt, I think, Wt was me of the w i s e s I had. Scan; of those pecple, I didn't 3aerwwhat to aut of him. he rrrade a cakri)yut:ion. Hewasaper&onwhobndammandhewasn'tjustatheoryguy, he had been imtolved up to his ears in it atrd he was not radical at al l .

We had Father Lawler, of caurse, was a real right wing. . . . You Iowrw about him?

a: A l i tte , yes.

A: Well, Father Lawler was really a right* priest w h i c h is usually when priests get hived in politics. They are liberals ati he was not. In fact, he came dmm here, I think, his main cause was to gtap b l c x i b w t ~ eud me of the s t o r i e s d you might like this QIE, a t l e a s t t h i s m I c a n W l y a u - h e w a s u p - a w c a e day and he got internqrted by me of the blacks. He called h i m a racist. H e said, f f I f r n nut a racist. I just d a f t want arrybody living nextdaarto~thatthrrrwstheirwatermelmmththsfrcolt~." Wehadwanacharacksinthere, includinghim, andhewmton to beccrras a Chicago alderman and so on. With the exceptim of the h a guys who are in prism and the caes that died, I m, we've had judges, legislators, lot of t h e m w e n t on to the lqislature. Jeslny MacDmald, Ralph Dunn, Harlan Rigmy, M h Madigan a n l an and m. so, itwaskindof a s t e p p ~ s t o n e f m ~ o i t h e m . Theygotatasteof it. 1~MikeWa;lldhavedcmeitanywaybecausehewasonthe wayupasawmAdtteemmandsom, Ixtt:samoftheothersmight MSt have.

Q: Well, thank ycrul

End of Tape ol.he, Side One

This mmmript is the prduct of a series of tape recorded interviews c m h c b d by Gc. Cullan Davis; Kim Hoffmann; Marilyn Huff; and ~imDthy J. Jones for the O r a l History Offim, Sangamrm State Unive~x3ity between S q b r h r 17-19, 1987. Francie Staggs lxanscribed the tam. Link S. Jett and Tinathy J. Jones edited the transcripts.

my H. ~~ was born an a farm near Soottsville, m. A resident of Flossnmr, he the 8th D i s t r i c t at the Illinois Constitutional cmvmtion. IW. Alexander was e l m Vice miderr t of the Ccrnstikrtioaal a31NBsrtim. Mr. Garrfsan served on the cbmmi-.

of the oral history =ir should bear in W that it is a transcript of the spoken word, that the inkmiewer, narrator and editor saqht to the intonml, ocmnnvlticnal style that is inhere& in wuh historical satrres. Sangamm State University is not responsible for the factual accuacy of the =ir, nor for views ~ ~ i n ; t h e s l r e £ m t h e r e a d e r t o j u d g e .

?he manuscript may ha sead, qwted ard cited freely. It may not be ~ i n w h o l e o r i n p a r t b y a n y m e a n s , electmnicormechancal, wiulcut e i c m in wit- irrm the Oral History Office, Sangamn State Uhiversi~, Springfield, I l l h i s 62794-9243.

Ray Gasrim, Springfield, Illhis, S p t a b x 18, 1987.

Q: What do yau think were the major specific achievemnts of the 1970 Constihztim?

A: Specific achiwanmts. Well, 1 suppolse one of tha more basic ones ClllOUldbethefreeingupofthearru3nltment~s. Thseaaingofthe

prpcedure. It made it possible that we could have amrdmmts. The old 1870 Canstikrtion m very, difficult to amend. I &dnltwant to limit it to that, but certainly it did m a t e the idea of m e . And, of came, them was cc~lpled with that the p ~ u v i s i c m for amxiirq the CWLstituticm with the initiative pmcess, which has been used to acsliwe the singlenmkm districts withaut cunmr2ative voting. I thought that was a xnajor refom, d c h we didn't succeed at the c~~lvention i n accmpliahirrg. It was s u h i ~ t o t h a v o t e r s a s a s i d e i s s u s , lx r t Idan~t th ink theyrea l ly m it or ' by the initiative be* on the tio on, a n d s a b l e t o eutmit that later and it did pass. It reduced the size of the legislature. I wuld have to say, also, that one of thewaybe I am taking credit for this because it did originate in aur a m i t t e e is the new Finance Article, Article 8. ' I h a t ~ ~ ~ w n d ~ ~ a n a u d i ~ ~ , w h i c h c a m e h a l l the heels of same of the prwicus scarrdals tbat wa had had. ThRlre was m y a need for it. A s I recall, that article was preenkd and accepted by the entire bcdy of delegates w i t h virtually m w i t i o n . That was a madem Finance Article. So, would be the areas that I would think zure the major acccarrpli~,

Q: what abut sholrkmhgs? Do yau feel that you made Inis- or left things out?

Ray -h 2

for Illinois. T h e -t w a s made at the time, 'Wel l , when people won't buy the bands, you've reaclhsd the limit of your debt." I don't lmau, beforeyauget tothat where t h e y m l t buythekmls, the debt rating agents, the credit rat- agents, w h ~ may raise the interest rate m.btantia.11~. So, I think them are s a ~ real prablen~ in the EWeme Article, which deals with state debt. Nm, haw you deal w i t h wm, I don't kmw.

Axwther a n a which I thought w a s a real plus was the mmdatory veto. I supporked it a t the caxxmtian. I apposed the awrdnE& that was dmit ted to the voters to r ip it axt of the cmstitutim, to repeal it. W e pnwailed d kept it in. Rrt, I'm not i n state gav- as su&, although I do serve m a regulatory agency. I'm not mmemd on a da-y bash wilA sections, Wt I hep hcarhg reports andreadaboutthanof abusesof theamsmhtoryveto, abuses vhich-well, let's say, uses of the -tory veto that I'm sure most

delegab never cmbrplalxd. I can't say all of thm because I Ltphold themall. Wrt, I knawof mkdytha t defends the alcRlEJes that h a v e h k e n p l a ~ ~ o n t h e a m e n d a t o r y ~ . I t h c q h t i t ~ m e o f t h e iwlwative thirvgs that we did it imprwed carmumicatian between the executive an l legislative brmd~. And after all W differences btwem them, if they could be worked out by camnuniaiticm and m i d abnqJt thirrgs 1 h r e ; 2 d o n ad a l l of that, artright rejection, sort of bpmvd, a slde change and get m w i t h the group. It would be a forward step i n gafenrment. So, I don't knuw. I thhk that that i s g a ~ ~ h a v s t o b e ~ t ~ ~ s a m a w a y o r ~ b y a n ~ . I wmldhapethatwe(XILZ1dsavethe~toryveto. I t h i n k i t l s m & a good thirg. FWther abuses of it arrd I wwld have to j o h t h e who would rip it cut.

A: Oh, I haven't given that emugh mt. I would warrt to listen b.Uledebates. Thed&ateshaven ' twan&artedyetm~we m d call mub?r me or not. I d m % think it's a InrrnirYg issue out them on the voters' rim m. So, I haven't heard it -. None of the people thaC I've I A h d to have discussed it, so I reaJ.1~ dm% hmu. I think I wmld say this that before yau ercbarkuprmvholesalecharqeandspxiarsubatarrtial~nrmof~ona

w m , a great deal of thmght ought to first be given to w b t h e r o r ~ u n d e r t h e m o r e r e l ~ p m v i s i o n s o f -ts hall it tats a n l it doesn't need as high of vote as it used to sell it. Can the hperfectiw18 arrd particularly sane of these ars2ls that I've referred to, ceul they be Mt w i t h by -t? The amsmlatory veto is me that cmld be, it could be dealt with.

A: If the roll were called again, I would vate against it.

Ray Ewrrisca 3

A: the f i rs t place, I felt when I was elected to the cmstitutional. corrverrticm and PEI would ratify to the last a t least as lorvg as the ather one. I f we didn't, we mght to a t . And the constitution, if you stick to mi- fu&mmtd law and don't try to put stuff in there that daesnlt belong in a constitution, it won't last. As my recollectim is, we vated on that first mading. Certainly in the ffrst par t of the cmventim, that is the first half-well, I thought then well th i s is kird of a confession Ulat w e ' l l be back in ywrs to rewrite this thing, so let's just put a lot of legislatim jn there, varims legislatim in there. I could hep same of it out. I r e m a k c -wanted to put the fish in here, the garrut, the hunters all of this. They said, i t ' d get votes. Thatwasnutnyidea. So, Ithhktwentyyearsistooshort. Naw, i f yau had an unworkable d t u t i a n , twenty y- would sound great. W e l l , I had runre faim in the body than that, and I think my faith WEIS

justified. I ~ ~ d o c u m e n t c a n l a s t ~ y e a r s . Ibngerthan t w a Q years. So, I crpposed it.

Hmwer, I guess, h i m i g h t tells rrre that ycru aught to have a kind of a g u n i n ~ c l & l ~ t h a t i f y a u g e t i n t o a s t r a i ~ t j a c k s t a n d you want out of it, w e l l it may also hwe an educational impact. In athsrwords, we'remeetingheretcdayto~iewthisdocumerrtandsa forth. It's educaticml. So, it's rut wrmg to every txVenq7 years rwiewthe thing. !tb see whether it1sworkirvg or not, there's nothing -withthat. So, i n t h a t mspct, the-yearthing i s a g d pxw11~ian. I would have preferred a t the the a longer one. Whm you hwetwmtyyears, yousee, yaudon~t3aerwwhmthattwentyyearsis going to - up. It may curre up at a the when the whole world and so forth is inunusual acditims. Yau W, ~ t i m s or -orother. OrsuEposeit-inatEFZZ-awsa natinnaL panic in the amntq. Well, you lmm, i f there was a natioml econCanic panic, yau l m m h m the vote wmld go. Change is better than what you've got. So, I donlt think cmstituti- are to be dealt with that way ervery tm~Qyears. So, w e l l , it's there, I voted a@mt it.

Q: What are ycrur mst satisfy- me;morie~i as your time as a delegate?

Q: What was your greatest disappohhmt?

Ray Garrison 4

It nmns a t I have fairly high ideals in that regard & prnbably was striving for more pmbetirn than would have flm w i t h the vaters. Afterall, thsry dm't alayys eqx& the highest. I'm sum that marry voters wmld have liked to f e e l e d have included a whole lot of that were not included. So, I m q p s e that muld have 'ka be--I'm sure that all of the delegates w e l l i n t e n t i d and were-I wouldn't gay a cross seclzim by arry means, I man a cross se t ion &dnlt have gut- that caliber of people. I thhk they were abwe a cross section. It w a s a distirvguiahed bdy, ard I'm hapW to have been associated with it. W e l l , I think I've attended m q one of the reMzicm that has been held.

Also, ma* a minor disapp*, I dan't hm and it would m l y be unfair for me to say rso -use 1% not Umt clcse t o the same, but ma* the legislature has not dme all that it cmld do under the cmstitution to qlement it. Maybe it has rmt; alw we were discussiq earlier in there, when we cam to the Executive Article the l ieutmmt governor, sams say he has no duties, Well, we prwided that he has those duties assigned to kim by the gmenzor or prescribed by state law. Ard I aalced the legislators including the speaker there, e t dutieshzwayauassignedtohimandIwas gladto leam that they have assigned scgne to the lieutemnt gcmmc~- the legis la tue has. Because as I -1, me liateslarrt govesnor a few yeirs ago resigned and said tbe jab ought to be abolished. I krwrw at the I voted for the pmviaion for the lieutmant govenx,r, and I had ideas that he would be a vmrkhm lieutenant wemor and that he

Q: Is there a q t 2 h g else when f thinkbacikaboutthecmventimor a h . to the fuhm of the cmst tutim, is else ym w u u l d l i k e t o ~ m t h e r e c ~ r d ?

A: well, I don't ln#rw. I was just leaking at these anmdrmb. And of ccrurse that has to bear an this @on of or nut i f the legislature is and is proposing as shouldbe, t h m t h e m i s c e r t a b l y n o n e & f o r a c a l l o f t h e mention at any time in the next hw&& years or what have you. I justlookedatthosencrw. H e m I w a s m t h e c c a r u n i t t e e o f t h e ~ Article, and we carefully considlered the exapticms that should be provided in the d t u t i m for taxes. We spent mcnths on it. ?he legislatum has, I bel ie , three titnss subdtted anmdmmb to the coastitution to e x q k the V- Praperty Tax amption. The vetemm organization pest all of those -ions. Three aut of the nine, I believe it is, and they've been defeated. A d barely getting a mrjmity wte there in 1984. Nut a -ial margin in 1986.

Naw, tkbe bail in habeow corpus anmdmmt, I'm resonably sure I vated for that. I laaw it carried lopsided. That, I thought, at the t h of the cwlstituUcm, weld gane a little mehoard there. But that got corracted arrd prcrperly so. I cwered the! one on the gwenwr's -tory veto, and as I say, I was active i n the canrpaign to defeat t h a t ~ b e c a u s e I h a d a g r e a t m s p e c t f o r t k a m e n d a t m y v e t o . W x t I h t t ~ m ~ t i S ~ i n g m d W a l r u s e s h a v e b e e n

Ray Garrim 5

intolerable. T h e pemmal lpoperty tax thhq, I was on the losing side of that in the cumerrtlan. I was to the abolitian in the Ccnstitutim of the corporate personal pmprty. Nm, the individual was already takm out. We didn't have -1 of that. 'I2la.t was a l r e a d y ~ t t d t o t h e ~ ~ i t w a s p e n d i n g t o g o t o t h e v o t e r s a t t h e t i m e , w e w a r e ~ i n g . so, allmwEcedealingwithwasthe corporate perscaal pmperQ tax. And even though I am an attorney for a ram major clorporatim, and I was speaking ny views and not that of my client. Actually, -was no other tax that wwld raise the m o n a y t h a t w a s ~ t o ~ r t l o c a L g w e n r m e n t . A n d I f e l t i t was a tax that the legislature could refonn. Wzt there viere pople that were d m a l about it. They didn't want to abolish it. Well, 1 felt this was the type of thing we could leave t o the legislature. If -wanted to abolish it, they could. If that was the th and place far it. I felt that was a steppirq in and saying there shall never be in the history of Illinois a persmal pmperty tax an a corporate issue. That's kirrl of a never, llever that was not prudent totake. w @ l l , t h e y ~ t t h m q h ~ t t h i n g . goingto to do it bysud.ranclsuchay-. I-, i t g o t c l c s e t o t b t i m e ~ t m m peoplebihomre h d m m m h l i n u q b q t h a t inthecmsti tut icm ~ t t e d a n c l m e n d m e n t t o k e e p i t . I t t a o ) c t h e m s i ~ t o r n i n e y e a r s to leam that. That failed, I gues~i, although it gat more votes for than against. So, I don% think that m a me of ths finest haxs in that ~ ~ c l B 3 B 1 COmmTtim. Itls deal- w i t h the pmoml -tax anl al l . A s I say, my adult life has been if wm ga t o bxatim. I don't think mason m i l e d there. So, that's about it.

EM of side one, Taps One

Preface

Ebar Gertz was born in Chicago an S e p b h ~ 14, 1906. A resident of chi-, he the 13th District at the Illinois Constitutional Qarnrerrtion. Mr. Gertz served an l2ie Bill of Rights Qanrmitt@e.

~ of theora lh i s r torymerm>irshouLdbear inmird .u la t i t i sa tmmcript of the spoloen word, ard that ths intewiebm, narrator and aditor sou#k to the informal, -ti& lstyle that is

in such historical -. Sanganr#n State Unimrsity is not responsible for the factual aacuracy of the w i r , m r for v h eqmssd themin; .these are for l 3 ~ reader to judge.

E l m r Gertz, Springfield, Illinois, 18, 1987.

Q: can you tell me, frm your perspective, what you see as the major specific a c h i m of the 1970 Constitution?

A: First of all, m elhimted the rigidity of the 1870 m t i t u t i o n , M& was maally a Straight jacket. W e got rid of pmvisims in the 1870 Canstituticn that - no longer necessary because of the different kind of world that w e have. W e gave the people of Il l inois, thmqh the delegates, the -ti- to wiew enrerythFng in the o l d ~ i R r t i m a r d t o t h i n k u p ~ t ~ t h i n g s ~ t o b e a d d e d ~ new thirgs wm added. For ~ l e , I think we were one of the very first states to have a pmvision an W envimmmt. Way badc in 1970, it loclmed up as mre inportant than perfiaps it daes ncrw. Ym'd besuxprisedattheammtof f e e l h q U m r e w a s w i t h r e a p c t t o P * theenv' We wrote an extrenrely good article, I

m gave~egislature tbe crl?portunity to imp1-t this in ISXE way. In that respct, it is differant frcan the tion on articles we thought we were giving the irrdividuals the right to carve out of n.

The B i l l of RighW, for exlamplet we put in p i s i o n s that w r e bindirug, not smethhq in gwemmrk but an ather individuals. In that mr B i l l of Fti$ts differs fmm the federal B i l l of

The fdtmtl Bill of Rights and Umse subrights generally have prwisims to prwtect the individual. against govenrment, but nat against other individuals. We felt there - anms where the individual had to be pmtected against other Mviduals. So, we put in the sections an nondism.imin;rtirm awl p m p x t y and enplcryment. We didn't put in any other areas because w e thwaght that if we put in too nu&, it wmld be s e l f i l e f ~ a t h q , and besides we felt that the federal gwerrnrrent might supply whatenrer VE neglected to supply.

of an equal rights and it has been effective. The provision thattr~putinhasn~tbeenirwterpretedbytheaaurttoindicatethat vmld be close ficnrtirry of any l a w or actim where gerder is h l v e d . Before that constiRrrtiaml prwision, that was not the caee. Rs a mattar of fact, that goes what ths federal ccRlrts have dme in that area. The federal ccrurts hwen't yet, -1y spiking, required close of legislatian or activity. wit w e have tried it and #at has w o r d rather W 1 .

I n t h e ~ o f t h e h a n d i ~ , w e h a v e d a m

constituticmalized the right of privacy, w h i c h didn't exist prwiclusly in Illinois arrd m l y a very few other places. Nat as effectively a s w @ l i k e d a n d W e ~ ~ ~ p r a v i s i a n ~ f t h e B i l l o f R i ~ t s , ardIthhkweupgradsditinmarrymspects. Ithhktbre-mre C h a r v g e ~ z f o r t h e ~ i n t h e W l o f R i g h t s t h a n o n ~ o f ~ other articles of the mmtitutim. Arsd * the B i l l of Rights, i n the -1e we mde a &clam- public interest that hadn't been hplemsrked which at least sets forth a goal that no ather d t u t i o n sets for us. Ard it h a d m and mbesnused im support of scarrs legislation or scane activity.

We created an elecbmte M that had been ut i l ized sufficiently, but it pmeaks a pssibility of ~tcans genxal regulatim of elections, which shams gmElter fairness, greater uni fd* , blztter results in

genera+ We created a school board, w h i c h hasn't lived up to its pknba l but has great m i t y and me of the n o s t inportant new artidea is this last article. That is totally different frcan arrything Illinois has had and while it has not been used sufficiently, it did create the official of the auditor general who, fortunately in Illhis chose ths exact right man and Bert Crcrwnls at the head at that ag-, y see. Rstentially, w e could have fiscdL respcasibility zn Illinois thmugh that article. mybe change^ here andthemhavetobemade, Wingeney.al, i tsaimwastocrdzethat kind of resplsibili "i. It cmrhinly hasnlt reteurded the rmvamt in itself. Wemadepmv ianswithrespecttoapportimmt. where- haven't been perfect, it nrade it 1-y that wetre going to have an apprtiannent in Illinois which will be cansthatianal, which w i l l be fair, w i l l give equal -tion to ane man, ane vote. Ln that respect, it's than ths previous article by far and it's better than alrrmost arry type of prwisim in any state constitutim.

Now, there is sare question whether or nut in the welve given to govenwr, or certain veto p J w s , bhthw we've gwae to far. There i s a s e r i o w q u e s t i o n a s t o ~ o r m t t h e a m e n d a ~ v e t o h a s been =ied cut as we mnbd it. a'lose who warrted a stmn~ garenw3r believe l2mt it could be carried a r t exactly right. I have the feeling &it we didn't interd that provision to enable the gcwemor to mite m lqblat im a c h had b€en tl2e result* Eut a t aq7 El-,

itlsanewmncept. Ofcame, thereistheitemvetoandtherelsa &on as to if we had the prcrper solutim to the situation which e x k t d t b m we had a gcrvemwr ard a l ieukmt gcrvemor of different: parties. I had the feeling that w e didn't go far encPagh. We s;hauld have carried that irrto the primary as well as the eleztim.

W e didn't go as far as yau might have gme in eliminathq s m ~ elective offices. There's no reasan scane m y admuwtm

I I

tive offices ought to be elected, but itls very difficult to get public officials to agree to camit suicide. And yet, wen we were invited t o do so, Adlai Stevemon was state tmammr at that the, andheuqedthatinthenewcmsti tutim, t h e s t a t e ~ w w u l d no larrger be an elective office ard rn didn't follaw it. The only case where we Eollw it is where there is saane difficulty arer Ray Page, Sqerintesdesrt of Public -on, so we elinbated that and m t e d state Board of -tian and the superhbrdmt is appointed by theboard.

But it is a very r e a l questim as to w h a t we ought to do with respect to t h judiciary. A very irrteresting W d q that is that i f we had ln#rwn the minds of the people of Ccrak Oaxrrty, we could have adenred appointel j* an same kird of merit system in Cook Camty. ltlstsadwetriedtoccrvertheerrtirestate. ~ t h e ~ t e i s s u e wasvotedon, i t p a s s e d i n c o a k ~ b u t n o t d m n s t a t e . Duwmtate votedsixteenagaSnstitard.thewholethirqwasdef~ated. Ithink there's still a possibility of getting s c m ~ form of merit selection or appohkive judges for C m k CcRmty. I dm% think there is a chance of get- it to the whole state -use damstate feels very strmq1.y in that area.

Q: What abcrut: &hortccanings? Ycru mmtioned the mmdatory veto as having sclms prab1a-s m. Are there other aspcts of the canstitution thatyausesasshortcce3aingsor.. . A: Y e s , I feel that hame rule u n i t s ought to have greater taxing pawsr than mey ncrw have. I think rn reason that chicago, for a@, has such -1- w i t h st310015 is that it can't raise rev- ~ t h m q h r e a l p r c p e r t y t a x . Rsalprapertyisalreadyavarly bwdened. I l lhis has -1y a very luw incme tax. A percerrtage, a mallpercentage,wxldenableustoraiseenmghmaraeyto~the sch~~l ls . W e fulfilled the abligatims I tha.qhtwe had in raind that theprim.w-of ~ f o r t h e s c h o o l s ~ d b s t h e legislatme. The caurts have ~JEII that to be a canstitutimd sermon. I don't .think m irrtended it as such. Otherwise, I don't think it should be that way. If you are go- to have a decent school, a system of public educatian, yau have to mzlke certain that th6xe aren't periodid crises w i t h the s t r h and kids bekg deprived of dmoling. Yau e i m have ccanpllsive arbitration or you -prcrper*-

Q: If avotewpreheldtodaytocaLlanewcmvention, hclwwouldyou vote?

Q: Why afraid?

A: Because there are enolafpl hardliners who &d eliminate the prubckion, rxarre of the prutections of the B i l l of Rights & t2mmcklwiththemirainal j u s t i c e ~ a n d i n o t h e r ~ . A l o t of people, because of caditi- in part, I think yau have to bear in mind that haever ywu explain it, we have far more delinqueracy, (=rime, la& of discipline, drhkhg, drugs, & so on. We've redly created a kind of mmster. A lot of m l e , nut sinply nry genemtim or

are so alarmed a b u t it that they will m l y tab the hardlire approach which results in the stupid a m & in a pericd like this.

Q: Aria you feel that ycu really -It dealing w i t h that particular pmblm?

A: I think it's a good provision. Well, you ccRlld say twenty, twenty-five. You have to have a respmsibly short period, not too shortsothatthepmplecauldbeasked, llmyauwantanother cmslitutimal corwentia~?~~ maple are entitled to say, Ityes, ycru laxrw, I'm hkemstd in it 2Lfter proper edIucation an the mmdmmt.vw I think mt Is h a w in these q l e of days is very instructive. If sct&m~ it gets dam to the -10, yau always have that prPblem of haw to mab sure that pople learn tha aqumnts. Otherwise, there will be a vote for or against m inpulse rather than cansidered j-.

A: a, sevaral. I was delighted that I w a s able to magainst the Republicans, m t s arid be elect& as a delegate.

Q: Y o u were elected as an -?

A: No. I wouldntt have tried. We wem Bdepm%b of whi& I was am. In the end, the - really the ones who carried the coaverYUm.

Q: Were they?

A: So, it was a great satisfaction h c d r q the &airman of the B i l l of Rights Ccrnaaittes and mi- .three books and marry articles on the constitutional cammkion ard havitq a firsbard opp-ty to grasp what crmstitutional is. I think it is I cherish. Ihaveheeninallkindsof lnteresthgvi- -1hadto select the single exprim that has been the most satisfy- exprience it is the one - w i t h the cmstitmtian. I've had wazsual opporhznities with that. In t e a m and so forth.

Q: Are there expriences that weren't w satis£yiq or d i s a p p i n W ?

A: Well, Wm txure-ityclashes. Nut toornany. For the most part, I got a l w even with those who held views M l y different frm mine. FRlr example, in my cammdty, Father Lawler was a,very, very reactionary perscol. I m s d&emhed that I would treat hunwiththeuhmstfairmss. EverydayIwould~awalkwithhim an3 say, Wkher, have I treated you fairly today?It He said, l1Yes, Elmer, yau have bean very fair.!! Thatts what I lstrwe to do. Well, Sametimes it was very difficult. Wrt at least that w a s what I trid to do. So, the net effect ms that the B i l l of Rights Ccamnittee was 1aakedupcrmas .U ls~ one at the canvention. V i s i t o r s

else at the amvention. It was lively w i t h the diversiw of the fonrm. If yc#1 read Alan Oakesl hkodwkian to my book an the ill of Rights, you wmld see the vision wie had, ard I think it was shared generally. This was a very unusual group of peaple. H e said rather fortuitiausly or by careful choice, that the lmst divarse body of pople in the whole carnrention sat on that cananittee. M thm we adopted rules that made it possible for us to do our work well. We adopted a rule, for example, that any pmision, that wa accepted one, wwld be subject to a seccnd vate. That enabled us to give -ful thmght to amy pruvision.

Q: You mentioned in the m l e a goal. What wtxm you referr- to?

a: No.

A: -1, anyway, I can tell you. We had a series of clauses in premble, not in tha 1870 Constitution. A desire for justioe for w i t y , equality to serve the needs of the individual to the utmost and it went dam in that vane. ZUmocst a pamble for the popuLar ccarmvrnwrsalth, a welfare state really in a sense. And evm thmgh it wasntt used and necessarily inrpl-, it at least: set forth a goal in the bmadest possible fashion whem everything for the

welfare of the Mvidual a the welfare of society was possible under the mmtitutim.

Q: You said that you Wmqht that the currerrt cmstituticm could be charged effectively mmlgh m?

A: and thnxgh the legislative prmess, wen thmugh the administrative m. S c m of the thirrgs that haven't vmrked too well, like scske of the agencies we mted, they haven't w k a d because the legislature has not implemerrted sufficiently or because the agency itself hasn't tried to £'unction -lye Of caurse, sane of these Instances, the cxrurts have defeated it. You lawrw, people talk abut the federal judiciary m t i n g law, it has been mrae than in the Illinois judiciary. They have Unmrbd the w i l l as wressed in constitutim in sweral h&ances. Wrt by and l a~ge , I think we've pm3med a very good cmstitutim. Incidmhlly, it waa the only canstitutim in recent: years aq&ere in the ccruntry that was adopted by a substantial margin. Midgan has ad- it. It adopted a new c m s t i k x t i c m by 5,000 vutes or more. ~ a r y l d , a very gaod constitution was defeated.

A: ~ i f y a u t r y t o h a v e a p e r f e c t a m s t i t u t i o n , y c r u m a k e o n e a t isn't saldle. You have to produce a doammt that's saleable. If you go too far, ym will defmt it. F m exanrple, I happen t o Miam gtrwagly mt we sIrcruld do away wim =piW pudshm yet I did not a2rprwe of pAtirq a p i s i o n h l v i x q capital

t,

pmidmmt in the hdy of the cmstitutian. I felt it had to be svhdtted separately and it was defeated tm to me. it would have defated ths amstitutional z m t d u m t , I dm% b a u . sumthes I think the coastikrtian w i l d have gme IAumgh arryc~ay. You can d y go so far and you can't create a perfect docunmt. You have to meate adocumasrt~chisthebestthEltpeuplewillaccept.

Q: Is there else you'd like to say about yrrur experience abwt the 1970 Coast=j.tutim or the future of it?

A: Y e s , I think it was a successful aparhnt in another way. ?he 1968 legislation provided for a ncorpartisan election of delegates and

m ~ u r y of the political parties are pocst.Rd. Have you noticed in the new canstitutim, they dm't say anyuhg abaut rmp&han electi-? 1 think m t t s a mistake. I think to insure to good d t u t i m , ycru have to have delega* wha are elected on a ~11.Ucal basis. O t h e r w i s e , yould have miti- that are set by the parties and delegam feel baund by them. As a matter of fact, in the Illinois CmStitutioaalccPNenti~~~, t h e r e w a s t h i s g m u p 0 f U s W h O ~

and in the end had a decisive voice muse tha Republicans and -ts are virtually enrenly split . It wasn't only that we felt w e had better ideas, h t w e had the votes in a closely divided -on to dehmhe the me.

Q: Okay. lhElnkyaUverymuch1

Em3 of Side me, Tape Or]R