green fine transcript 2

8/14/2019 Green Fine Transcript 2

1/16

1

2

345

REPORTER'S RECORDVolume 1 of 1 Volume

Tr i a l Cour t Cause No. 1170853

1

678

910111213

THE STATE OF TEXASVS.JOHN EDWARD GREEN, JR.

IN THE DISTRICT COURT OFHARRIS COUNTY, T E X A S177TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT

MOTION HEARING

14 On th e 5 th day o f March, 2010, th e15 fo l lowing proceed ings came on to be heard in the16 above - en t i t l ed and numbered cause be fo re the17 Honorab le Kevin F ine , Judge p r e s i d i n g , he ld in18 Hous ton , Ha r r i s County , Texas .19202122232425

Proceed ings r epo r t ed by computer izeds teno type machine .

L i n d a Hacke r , Texa s CSR #4167Of f i c i a l Cour t Repor te r - 177 th Di s t r i c t Cour t1201 F r a nk l i n , 19 t h F l oo rHous ton , Texas 77002

713-755-6332


2/16

12

A P P EA RAN C E S

2

3 Attorneys fo r the Sta t e :4 Mr. William Exle y, J r .

SBCT No. 240020715 Ms. Kari Allen

SBCT No. 178816506 Ass i s t an t Dis t r i c t Attorneys1201 Frankl in , Sui te 6007 Houston, Texas 77002Phone: 713-755-580089 Attorneys fo r the Defendant :10 Mr. Robert LoperAttorney a t Law11 SBOT No. 12562300111 W. 15th S t r ee t12 Houston, Texas 77008Phone: 713-880-900013141516171819202122232425

Mr. John Pa t r i ck "Casey" KeirnanAttorney a t LawSBCT No. 11184700917 F ran klin , S uite 550Houston, Texas 77002Phone: 713-236-9700


3/16


4/16

4

to you.Would th e Sta t e no t have the r i gh t

to seek a Writ of Mandamus as opposed to a d i r e c tappea l in t h a t mandamus?

THE COURT: All r i gh t .MR. KEIRNAN: - - we ' re ask ing fo r

some t ime , maybe Wednesday o f nex t week.THE COURT: Let me pose a ques t ion

It's our pos i t i on th a t a t t h i s t imeth e S ta t e doe sn ' t have a r i gh t to appea l under t h i s ,bu t w e're ask ing t ha t th e Cour t give us till nex tWednesday to c on sid er th es e mot ions and respond tothem in w ri t ing what our pos i t i on i s , about whether ,one, whether the Court should r econs ider th e ru l i ngt h a t it made yes te rday and, two, whether th e s t a t ewould have the r i gh t to proceed or th e Court has th eau tho r i t y to o rde r the S ta t e to proceed to p rosecu tehim if they don ' t have th e r i gh t to appea l under37.01 - - 071 o f the Code o f C r im in al P ro ce du re . Andw e're ask ing some t ime to respond in wr i t ing tot ha t , Judge. We were not able to ge t t h a t andin co rp ora te th ese two motions fo r a response t h i smorning. S o - -

Well , if - The i s sue in th e

MR. KEIRNAN:THE COURT:

12

3456789

1011121314

151617181920

2122232425


5/16

1 mandamus o r a d e c i s i o n i n the mandamus t h e r e a f t e r2 could be a p p e a l e d .3 MR. KEIRNAN: Yes, s i r .4 THE COURT: B a s i c a l l y accompl ishing5 t h e same - - same t h i n g .6 MR. KEIRNAN: Sounds t o me l i k e7 t h a t ' s what might happen if t h e Cour t were t o8 deny - - deny t h e S t a t e ' s motion t o r e c o n s i d e r and9 then, i n f a c t , deny t h e i r motion t o proceed t o t r y10 Mr. Green under t h e death p e n a l t y s t a t u t e i n l i g h t11 o f your r u l i n g t h e y would have and an a p p e l l a t e12 lawyer I 'm n o t , b u t they would have t h e r i g h t t o13 f i l e a Writ o f Mandamus and, o f c o u r s e , kind o f14 accompl ishes t h e same t h i n g .15 But I 'm not i n t h e p o s i t i o n ,16 n e i t h e r i s Mr. Loper. We - - our a p p e l l a t e d i v i s i o n17 i s s c a t t e r e d a c r o s s t h e S t a t e o f Texas and we've had18 them c a l l us, d i f f e r e n t people c a l l us and t h a t ' s - -19 t h a t ' s what we have t o do, t o t h i n k t o make s u r e20 t h a t w e ' r e a t l e a s t t e l l i n g t h e Court our p o s i t i o n21 on b e h a l f o f Mr. Green and what we t h i n k how t h e22 Court should proceed r e g a r d i n g t h e s e two motions and23 what Mr. G r e e n ' s r i g h t s a r e c o n s i d e r i n g the C o u r t ' s24 r u l i n g y e s t e r d a y .25 THE COURT: A l l r i g h t . How much

5


6/16

1 t ime do you need, Mr. Keirnan?2 MR. KEIRNAN: Wednesday of nex t3 week.4 THE COURT: Sta t e , any response?5 MS. ALLEN: No, s i r .6 THE COURT: All r i gh t . I s t ha t7 okay?8 MS. ALLEN: Yes, s i r .9 MR. KEIRNAN: I don ' t th ink t h a t

10 a f f e c t s anybody 's appe l l a t e r igh t s regard ing your11 ru l ing yes te rday .12 THE COURT: All r i gh t . I wi l l13 withhold a ru l ing on th e S ta t e ' s motions un t i l next14 Wednesday. We wi l l reconvene a t th a t t ime.15 I do, however, want to c l a r i f y16 because th i s was a mUlt i -po in t motion, I want to17 c l a r i f y my ru l ing on the motion and I want to a l so18 have - - give the S ta t e and the Defense an19 oppor tun i ty to p r e sen t any a uth or i ty th a t they may20 have come up with s ince my ru l ing yes terday21 af te rnoon un t i l today o r t h i s morning.22 My holding and with regard to the23 motion to hold Ar t i c l e 37.07 uncons t i t u t i ona l - - and24 Art ic l e 37.07 fo r c l a r i f i c a t i on i s th e por t ion of25 the Texas Code of C rim in al P ro ce du re which se t s

6


7/16

7

MS. ALLEN: Your Honor, i s n ' t it

fo r th th e manner in which the Sta t e i s to proceed inprocedura l ly in seek ing and ob t a i n i ng a sen tence ofdea th .

My hold ing with rega rd to theDefense motion i s l imi t ed only to th e due proces sclaim t h a t 37.071 has r e su l t ed i n th e execut ion o fin no ce nt p eo ple and /o r has the po t en t i a l to r e su l tin the execu tion o f innocen t pe rsons .

Unless one s id e o r th e o t he r canpo in t me to a case or any au t ho r i t y , to myknowledge - - and I have been unable to f ind any caseto guide me - - t h a t to my knowledge t he r e a re noguid ing cases to po i n t t h i s Cour t in any pa r t i c u l a r

THE COURT: 37 .071 , t h a t i s

I thought you - - I

I j u s t wanted to make

37.071 . Did I miss t a t e

MS. ALLEN:

MS. ALLEN:

THE COURT:

THE COURT: Okay. I 'm so r ry .My - -

t ha t?

37.0717

su r e .

heard 37 .0 7.

co r r ec t .

123456789

1011

121314

151617181920212223

2425


8/16

1 d i r e c t i o n . There i s no p r e c e d e n t t o guide me i n2 r e s o l v i n g t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i s s u e . As f a r as I know3 it i s an i s s u e o f f i r s t i m p r e s s i o n .4 So t o say t h a t I am i g n o r i n g5 p r e c e d e n t o r l e g i s l a t i n g from t h e Bench I t h i n k i s6 s l i g h t l y o v e r r e a c h i n g . A l l I can do, as t h i s i s s u e7 has been r a i s e d , i s go by what guidance t h e r e i s ;8 and t h e only guidance t h a t I have found i s t h a t9 provided by t h e United s t a t e s Supreme Court t h a t

10 p l a c e s a duty on t r i a l c o u r t s t o a c t as g a t e k e e p e r s11 i n i n t e r p r e t i n g t h e due p r o c e s s c l a i m i n l i g h t o f12 e v o l v i n g s t a n d a r d s o f f a i r n e s s and o r d e r e d l i b e r t y .13 C l e a r l y I have been charged with14 t h a t d u t y . So I am now charged w i t h i n t e r p r e t i n g15 such e v o l v i n g s t a n d a r d s and I ' m c a l l e d upon t o16 a s s e s s t h e c u r r e n t s t a t e o f our s o c i e t y ' s s t a n d a r d s17 o f f a i r n e s s and o r d e r e d l i b e r t y i n l i g h t o f what we18 as a s o c i e t y now know. And t h a t i s t h a t we e x e c u t e19 i n n o c e n t p e o p l e . This i s s u p p o r t e d by t h e20 e x o ne ra ti o n o f i n d i v i d u a l s o f f o f Amer ica ' s d e a t h21 rows.22 I r e p e a t a g a i n t h a t t h e v a s t23 m a j o r i t y o f t h o s e c a s e s i n v o l v e DNA e v i d e n c e . What24 o f t h o s e c a s e s t h a t do not i n v o l v e DNA ev idence? To25 my knowledge, t h e r e has been o n l y one r e t r i a l o f a

8


9/16

1 deceased ind iv idua l who has ac tua l ly been executed .2 That t r i a l took place in Travis County in Judge3 Char l ie Ba i rd ' s cour t wherein it was found t h a t the4 deceased was, in fac t , innocent and t h e r ea f t e r5 executed by the Sta t e of Texas .6 Whether it's one person or 10,000,7 I don ' t be l i eve soc i e ty i s wi l l ing to , what i s known8 as in l i t e r a t u r e , to rem ain under the c loak of th e9 wi l l i ng suspens ion of d i s b e l i e f . That ' s what we

10 must engage in i f we' re going to say we've never11 executed an innocent person in l i g h t of what th e12 Innocence Pro jec t has uncovered and in l i g h t of what13 we now know of th e value of eyewi tness14 i d en t i f i c a t i on and in l i g h t of the fac t t h a t the re15 are numerous cases , whether a dea th case or not ,16 where the re i s no DNA evidence to go back and t e s t17 in order to exonera te the i nd iv idua l .18 This cu r ren t awareness in our19 soc ie ty nece ss i t a t e s the ques t ion o f whether we as a20 soc ie ty , knowing t ha t we execute in nocent persons ,21 des i re to cont inue to ignore t h a t r e a l i t y .22 Now, I say t h i s with a b i t of23 cau t ion . I t i s perhaps easy to ignore t ha t r e a l i t y24 when the ind iv idua l s i t t i n g a t the defense counsel25 comes from lower income neighborhoods, i s a

9


10/16

1 m in o r i t y , o r h a s a c r i m i n a l h i s t o r y . I know t h a t2 s e v e r a l f e e l t h a t , w e l l , if t h e y ' r e n o t g u i l t y o f3 t h e c a p i t a l m u r d e r , t h e y ' r e g u i l t y o f s o m e t h i n g s o4 it's o k a y . I d o n ' t t h i n k s o c i e t y i s o f t h a t f r a m e5 o f mind a ny l o n g e r .6 O ur C o n s t it u t i o n a f f o r d s7 p r o t e c t i o n s t o a l l c i t i z e n s , n o t j u s t t h o s e s i t t i n g8 a t c o u n s e l t a b l e a c c u s e d o f a c r i m e , a n d I s h u d d e r9 t o t h i n k a n d I do n o t b e l i e v e o u r s o c i e t y t a k e s a

10 b l i n d e y e t o t h e m s e l v e s a s i n d i v i d u a l s a n d t h o s e11 c l o s e t o them a n d , t h e r e f o r e , c o n d o n e t h e e x e c u t i o n12 o f i n n o c e n t p e r s o n s from low i n c o m e , p r e d o m i n a n t l y13 m i n o r i t y c i t i z e n r y . I d o n ' t t h i n k s o c i e t y i s14 w i l l i n g t o do t h a t a n y m o r e . I d o n ' t t h i n k s o c i e t y15 i s w i l l i n g t o e n g a g e i n t h e w i l l i n g s u sp en si o n o f16 d i s b e l i e f t h a t we do n o t a n d c o u l d n e v e r e x e c u t e a n17 i n n o c e n t p e r s o n .18 An d b e c a u s e t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n19 p r o t e c t s u s a l l , t h e q u e s t i o n t o b e a s k e d a n d20 a n s w e r e d i n r e s o l v i n g t h i s i s s u e i s w h e t h e r we a s a21 s o c i e t y we h a v e t o l o o k a t o u r s e l v e s . A re we22 w i l l i n g t o a l l o w o u r s o n s , o u r d a u g h t e r s , o u r23 b r o t h e r s , o u r s i s t e r s , o u r f r i e n d s t o b e t h e24 s a c r i f i c i a l l a m b s s h o u l d t h e y b e w r o n g l y a c c u s e d o f25 a c a p i t a l o f f e n s e an d t h e n b e e x e c u t e d ?

10


11/16

Your Honor - -

12

3456

7B9

1011121314

1516171819202122232425

I don ' t t h ink the re i s - - t he re maybe some people ou t there t h a t would say t hey ' r ewil l ing to l e t t h e i r son d ie so t h a t the Sta t e ofTexas can have a dea th pena l ty , bu t I t h ink thosepersons would be few and fa r between .

I f ind t h a t th e g rea t e r major i ty ofour soc ie ty would no t be 5 0 wi l l i ng to al low theexecu t ion o f t h e i r f r i ends and fam ily o r to be thes a c r i f i c i a l lambs so t h a t the Sta t e of Texas canhave a dea th pena l ty . I t h ink t h a t the changing andevolving s t andards of f a i rness and ordered l i b e r t ya re such t h a t in l i g h t of the f a c t t h a t we haveoverwhelming ev idence t h a t we a re , in f ac t ,ex ec utin g in no ce nt p erso ns , I don ' t be l i eve t h a t ourevolv ing s ta nd ard s a re a t the po in t where we ' rewil l ing to s a c r i f i c e even those t h a t have cr imina lrecords and even those t h a t come from the Fi f t h Wardor the Ninth Ward of New Orleans or the Fourth Wardor the Third Ward of Houston.

I t h ink soc i e ty has begun to take alook wi th in i t s e l f , and I th ink the p ro pe r q ue st io nto be asked i s j u s t t h a t . Are we wi l l ing to l e t ourown be the s a c r i f i c i a l lambs? I don ' t t h ink soc i e tyi s wil l ing to do t h a t .

MS. ALLEN:

11


12/16


13/16

1 I j u s t wanted to as se r t to you, the2 Court , and to d efe nse c ou nse l and everyone e lse t h a t3 ne i the r Mr. Exley, nor I , nor Dis t r i c t Attorney4 Pa t r i c i a Lykos would knowingly execute an innocent5 man.6 THE COURT: And l e t me s t a t e t h i s7 fo r the record , and I should have sa id t h i s ea r l i e r .8 There was - - I j u s t want to make it9 pe r f ec t l y c l e a r . The reason I want to make it c l ea r10 t ha t t h i s i s the only i s sue I 'm ru l ing upon i s11 because I am not - - the grea te r por t ion of t h i s12 motion addresses the manner in which - - the manner13 in which a Dis t r i c t At torney ' s Off ice decides14 whether a case i s death e l i g i b l e .15 I have more conf idence in th i s16 Dis t r i c t At torney ' s Office than - - well , l e t me17 rephrase t ha t .18 I have fu l l conf idence in th i s19 Dis t r i c t A t to rn e y's O ff ic e, spec i f i c a l l y our cur ren t20 Dis t r i c t Attorney , Judge Pat Lykos, and Jim Lei tner21 and Roger Bridgewater , a l l the way down to Ms. Allen22 and Mr. Exley, do not take death pena l t i e s l i g h t l y .23 They are se r ious ly cons idered . A grea t dea l o f t ime24 i s given to the dec i s ion to seek dea th ; and, in25 fac t , in t h i s case , it wasn ' t un t i l recen t ly th e

13


14/16

1 s t a t e decided to seek dea th , and by r e cen t ly , I mean2 w ith in the l a s t week or two, and t h i s case has been3 pending for a very , very long t ime. And I do not4 ques t ion Judge Lykos ' dec is io n to seek dea th . I do5 not ques t ion Ms. Al l en ' s nor Mr. Exle y's d ec is io n to6 seek death . They are charged with and we must have7 conf idence in our prosecu tors . They are charged8 with two du t i e s , not j u s t one. That i s to uphold9 the Cons t i tu t ion of the United Sta t e s and the Sta te10 of Texas and, fu r the r , they must see and have sworn11 to see t ha t ju st ic e i s done.12 I be l ieve th is D is tr ic t Attorney ' s13 Off ice does j u s t t ha t . I can ' t speak fo r t imes14 pas t , and I won ' t go t he re , bu t c er ta in ly th is15 Dis t r i c t Attorney ' s Off ice , t h e r e ' s no question in16 my mind does not take these th ings l i gh t l y - - do not17 take t hese th ings l i gh t l y , and t h a t ' s why I have18 o ve rru le d th e Defense - - the Defense ' s motion in19 regards to any argument t ha t the dec is ion-making20 process i s a rb i t r a r y , capr ic ious or in any way a21 vio la t ion of the Cons t i tu t ion .22 I hope t h a t c l a r i f i e s t ha t poin t .23 MS. ALLEN: Thank you, Your Honor.24 THE COURT: You're qui t e welcome.25 Anything from the Defense?

14


15/16

MR. KEIRNAN: Thank you fo r you rr u l i n g , Your Honor .

THE COURT: A ll r i g h t . We wi l lr e convene nex t Wednesday a t 10 :00 a .m . a t which t ime1 1 11 make a r u l i n g on th e S t a t e ' s mot ions , Motion toProceed to T r i a l Under Texas Code o f Cr im ina lProcedure Ar t i c l e 37 .01 -- 37 .071 . I d id it aga i n ,d i d n ' t I , Ms. Al l en -- and th e S t a t e ' s Mot ion toRecons ide r My Rul ing .

(P roceed ings ad j ou rned . )

123456789

1011

1213141516171819202122232425

t h i s c a s e .

MS. ALLEN:THE COURT:MR. LOPER:THE COURT:

Thank you, Your Honor .A ll r i g h t .Thank you, Judge .We a re ad jou rned in

15


16/16

1 THE STATE OF TEXAS2 COUNTY OF HARRIS3 I , LINDA HACKER, Off i c i a l Court4 Repor te r in and fo r the 177th Di s t r i c t Court ofHarr is County, Texas, do hereby ce r t i f y t ha t the5 above and foregoing conta ins a t rue and co r r ec tt r an sc r ip t ion of a l l por t ions o f evidence and6 o the r proceedings reques ted in w rit in g by counse lfo r the pa r t i e s to be inc luded in t h i s volume of7 the Repor te r ' s Record, in the above-s ty led andnumbered cause , a l l of which occurred in open8 Court or in Chambers and were repor ted by me.9 I fu r t he r ce r t i f y t h a t t h i s Repor te r ' s10 Record of th e proceedings t r u ly and co r r ec t l yr e f l e c t s the exh ib i t s , i f any, admit ted by the11 respec t ive pa r t i e s .

12 I fu r t he r ce r t i f y t ha t the t o t a l cos t fo r13 the p re pa ra tio n o f t h i s Repor t e r ' s Record i s$ and was pa id o r wi l l be pa id by14

16

1516171819202122232425

day of WITNESS MY OFFICIAL HAND on t h i s th e_______________ , 2010.

LINDA HACKER, CSR No. 4167Expi ra t ion Date: 12-31-10Off i c i a l Cour t Repor te r177th Dis t r i c t Cour tHarr i s County, Texas1201 Frankl in , 19th FloorHouston, Texas 77002713-755-6332

green fine transcript 2

Documents