green fine transcript 1

8/14/2019 Green Fine Transcript 1

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2 THE COURT: A ll r i g h t . Motion ta3 Hold t h a t Texas Code o f Criminal Procedure Ar t i c l e

37.01 i s Uncons t i t u t i ona l .5 MR. LOPER: Judge , I th ink the main6 t h r u s t o f t h i s motion i s t h a t , as it s ay s , the re7 h a v ( ~ been peop le exonera t ed from th e coun t ry ' s death8 rows, not j u s t Harr i s County, no t j u s t th e S t a t e of9 Texas , and j u s t from th e s t andpo in t t h a t mis t ake s

10 a re made and obv ious ly the re a re no go-backs once an11 execut ion has taken p la c e . Tha t fo r all o f the12 reasonR t ha t we list in here and th e var ious13 f a i l u r e s as f a r a s no t ice a re co ncern ed , wc::' roe111 ask. i 1 ig you -_. ~ - 1 e ' re ba s i c a l l y s"aying t h a t Wc;? 1 : h i n ~ :1 5 t hat. l:h e 3 y:; t e i l l t 11 a i: cl e i: e r TIl i n e s w11 0 s h 0 U .1. d d ie j n16 Texas i s bro}:en. We're ask ing you to f in d it1"7 uncoI l s t i t u tLona l .IS 1 don ' t kn (')win 10


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1 or any Supreme Cour t o f the U nited s t a t e s ca se s t h a t2 say t h a t b ~ c a u s e t h e r e may be f laws In a system t h a t3 any th ing can be dec l a r ed u n c o n s t i t l l ~ i o n a l , we4 r e s p e c t f u l l y r e q u e s t t h a t you deny th e mot ion .5 [ do no t have case law o the r t han6 gene ra l cases [rom the Court of Cr imina l Appea ls1 t h a t have r epea t ed ly uphe ld th e dea th pena l t y8 s t a t u t e .9 THE COURT: On grounds of .10 eve ry t h i ng under th e sun excep t t h i s one?1112

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i'1;i ALLEN: Ne l l --'rHE COURT: I ':m ask ing .HS. ALI.EN: And 1 -- you know;

Judge , in l ook ing - - and l e t me j u s t say fo r th er e co rd on all t h i s , th e A ppe l l a t e Div i s i on c_id

16 much - - aJ.most


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1. CO U 1 d .b e a due p ro c e sse 1 a im, b il t t hat's no 'I'l h (H' /2 they couched it. So Uta t 's n o t what J' m p r e p ~ . red toJ respond to .J1 ffHE C O U I ~ T : Well , t h ey ' v e l i s t e d5 the S ix th , Eigh th , and Four t een th Amendments,6 Ar t i c l e , S e c ~ l o n , due proces s unde r Texas7 Cons t i t u t i on , 10.

~ i : S . AI.LEN: The Cou r t o f Crind. 'nal9 Appeals in and I canno t pronounce th e nawe;

10 S C H 'E A N E T T E - - d id add re ss the Fede ra l due11 process c la ims r ega rd ing a sys tem and t h a t in a12 s tudy t h a t s ays t h a t , "While th e execu t i on o f an13 innocen t pe r son may v ia 1 a t e E'ede.ca 1. due proce s s (mc14 can be cons i de r ed c ru e l and unusua l pun ishment ,15 appe l l an t does no t c la im t h a t he i s innocent :in t h a t16 ca s e . He, t h e r e f o r e , f a i l s to d em o ns tra te t h a t h is17 due process r j gh t s or h is r i g h t to be f r ee from18 c rue l and u n u s u ~ l pun i shment have been v io l a t ed by19 our dea th pena l t y s t a t u t e . "20

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THE COURT:MR. LOPER:

Hr. Loper .Judger I hope t h a t

22 we ' re n o t going to have to w a i t u n t i l t h e r e 's some23 f i nd ing t h a t our client's i nnocen t o r no t to24 compla in abou t th e s t a t u t e . If we were to ge t to25 t h a t p o in t , we wou ldn ' t worry abou t th e s t a t u t e .


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'j'H E COUR T :i:-'lR. T.,O?ER:

Righ t .I th.tn.:ic

'---,IIIt h i s i s t a l k i ~ g i

3 aboa t h i t, t o r i c a lly ~ . > e o p l e in th e pa s t th a t we kno\v,4 we ab so lu t e ly know have been innocent : tha t have been5 exone ra t ed and t aken o f f dea t h row. Those a re th e6 k ind of caae s t h a t t h e r e can be no go -backs once the7 ex e cu t i o n ' s t aken p l a c e .8 T E : i ~ COURT: Wel l , it seems to me9 th e case c i t e d by Ms. Al len i nvo lves a form over

10 subs t ance a ~ g u m e n t where in it is neve r argued th e11 de f endan t was a c t u n l l y i nnoc en t and , t h e r e f o r e ,12 would have h is due p roc e s s r i g h t s v i o l a t e d .13 my que s t i on is, is your argument t h a t you r c l i e n t i II.! innocent :?15 MR. LOPER: I c e r t a i n l y would say ,16 a t t h i s po i n t in t ime we have th e presumpt ion o f17 innocence un t i l it 's t aken away. If that's18 s u f f i c i e n t unde r t h a t ca se , I don ' t know. I don ' t19 kno\-l tha t c a s e . Obvious ly t h a t was something t h a t20 was appea l ed p o st c on v ic tio n , I would p=esume.21 THE COURT: Right . My guess i s22 your de fen se i s going to be t h e r e ' s a23 mi s i d e n t i f i c a t i o n and someone e l s e commi t t ed t h i s24 murde r .25 I see ~ r Casey shak ing - - wel l ,


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1 M ~ - - I 'm ~ o r r y , Casey .

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HR. KEIRNAN:i'1R. LOPER:

Tha t ' s okay .That 'R c e r t a i n l y one

4 pa r t of our defense , bu t I t h i nk t h a t we could j u s t5 s tand on the ground of say ing t h a t th e S ta t e i s no t6 going to be ab le to prove t h e i r case beyond a7 reasonable donu t to make us i nnocen t enough to cla im8 r e l i e f unde r t h i s motion and unde r the pa ram eters o f9 th e case t h a t Ms. Allen has c i t e d .

10 THE COUR': Okay. For p ur.p ose s of11 t h i s motion , 1 wi l l t ake it t h a t your argument i3 o r12 t ha t your defense wi l l be someone e l se commit ted13 t h i s of fense , t h e r e f o r e , your c l i e n t i s innocen t o f1"4 th e o ffen se_

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t h a t too, Judge .MR. LOPER:Yes, sir.THE COURT:

I ce r t a i n l y i nc ludes

J u s t fo r th e re co rd , my18 unders tanding ...-. and 1 '11 t ake j u d i c i a l no t i ce t h a t19 t he r e i s an e r r o r - - we l l , ac tua l l y no t an e r ~ o r ,20 bu t on Page 2 o f th e mot ion , Paragraph 4, "More than21 100 inmates from th e coun t r y ' s dea th rows have been22 exonera t ed . II2324 t h i s po i n t .

Tha t number has reach ed over 200 a tThe Cour t a l so wi l l no t e and take

25 no t ic e o f th e f a c t t h a t th e g rea te r . majo r i t y o f

. _ - - - - - - _ . _ . _ - - - -


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2:). - - - - - - - _ .._ - - - - - - - - - - _ . _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ,1 those exone ra t ed have been ca s e s whcce t h e r e was DNA2 ev idence left to t e s t to show th e de fendan t ' s3 innocence and we c an ' t - - we canno t conce ivab ly4 r e v i s i t someone ' s innocence ab sen t some form o f5 ev idence such as DNA ev i dence . That c a l l s in to6 ques t i on even more so th e execu t ion o f i n n o ~ e n t", peop le .

A ll r i g h t . Mr. Loper , on Page 2 of9 your motion, second f u l l pa r ag r aph , you s t a t e , "IE

10 p ro t e c t i on of in no ce nt p eo ple from s t a t e - s ponso red11 execu t ion i s a p ro t e c t ed l i b e r t y , and i f such

p ro t e c t ed l i b e r t y i n c l ude s the r i g h t o f an i nnocen t13 person no t to ~ depr ived , by execu t i on , o f the14 oppo r t un i t y to d ~ m o n s t r a t e h is in nocen ce , th en15 Congress may no t ove r r i d e such l i b e r ~ y a b ~ e n t a f a r '

more c l e a r and compe l l ing need than any p r e s en t ed17 here . " Then you c i t e a Di s t r i c t Cour t ca se ou t o f18 New York, UnI ted s t a t e s v s . Quinones , spe l l ed19 QUI N O N E S.20 Can you c l a r i f y t h a t fo r me?21 MR. LOPgR: It's - - as w e l l as I22 can c l a r i f y it r i g h t now i s to tell you, Judge, t h a t23 I know t h a t t h i s -- t h a t t h a t s t a t emen t came from24 t h a t ca se . I don ' t have th e ca se with me, bu t I25 wi l l run it down fo r you.


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_._---_.TUB COURT: The Cou r t n o tes th a t in

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2 Paragraph 3 o f th e motion Defense s t a t e s , IIIt 1 f'. ; . ):; se t ; : l ed l a ~ v t h a t th e F i f t h Amendment 's b road4 guaran t ee o f ' due p roce s s ' must be i n t e r p r e t ed in5 l i g h t of evolv ing s t ~ n d a r d s o f f a i rne s s and orde red6 l i b e r t y . " Th2TI you go on to d i s cus s th e exone r a t i on-;

8of innocent\vhich ~ g a i n

i nd iv id : Ja l sI w i l l t ake

from A m erica 's d ea thj u d i c i a l n o t i c e t h a t

rotvs,....l .nerc

9 have been more than 200 such i nd i v i dua l s exone ra t ed .10 l I o w e v E ~ r 1 those . .e x ~ n e r a t l o n s nave been by nnd l a rge1] l imI ted to cases where the re has been DNA evidence12 which l .eaves t hose accused o f c ap i t a l of fense where13 t he re l5 no DNA o f f en s e where t hey may, in f a c t , bel i n ~ o c e n t no r ed re s s .15 So under t h i s a rgumen t , 1 suppose '16 as t h gatekeeper o f th e law, I ' v e go t to dec ide17 what ou r evo lv ing s t anda rd s o f f a i rne s s and orde red18 l i b ( ~ r t y e r e . I f - - if they a re such th at s o cie ty19 b e l i e ~ e s it to be okay to e xe cu te in no ce nt people ,20 whether t h a t be one o r a t housand so t h a t a s t a t e ,21 spe c i f i c a l l y the s t a t e of Texas , can have a dea th22 pena l ty aO t h a t t hose t h a t migh t be dese rv ing o f th e23 pena l t y o f dea th can ac tua l l y be p u t to dea t h ,24 whethe r o r no t t h a t - - t h a t t r ade -o f f would meet ou r25 cu r c en t s t anda rd s o f f a i r n e s s and o rde r ed l i b e r t y .


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1 I ' v e t aken no po l l s . I haven I t

?..,- I

2 seen any - - I ' v e never read any a r t i c l e s , whether j .n3 a newspaper , l e ga l jo urn al , where in peop le have heen

asked th e q ue st io n: I s it okay to eXGcute i nnocen t5 people so t h a t we as a s oc i e t y can have a death6 pena l ty to execu t e gu i l t y ?7 From my s t a ndpo i n t , I am no t8 , ,-1illing to have my f r i e nd s o r a f am i l y member o r9 even an acqua in t ance ~ ' l h o is i nnocen t -- I 'm not

10 w il l in g to have - - let them be th e s a c r i f i c i a l lamb11 to be executed so t h a t we can have a dea th pena l t y12 and execu te those a c t u a l l y d ese rv ing o f th e death13 pena l t y . And I be l i eve t h a t because o f th e e f f o r t s14 o f th e Innocence P ro j e c t and Innocence Pro j ec t s15 around th e coun t ry and th e a t t e n t i on given to th e ,16 morator ium on execu tion s in th e s t a t e of I l l i n o i s17 because o f t h i s ve ry f a c t - - and the se a re f a c t s ,18 n ot a ss ump tio ns, t h a t we do , in f a c t , have i nnocen t19 people on dea th row t h a t were to be executed who20 were found to be i nnocen t and t h a t more than l i ke ly21 s t a t i s t i c a l l y t he re a re a t l e a s t an equa l number of22 i nmates s i t t i n g on dea th row somewhere in t h i s23 coun t ry t h a t do no t have th e DNA evidence ava i l ab l e24 to demonst ra te t h e i r i nnocence . And I t h i nk t h a t25 our coun t ry has become more aware , our c i t i z en ry has


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a morem o r ~ a w o ~ e o f th e f a c t t h a t t h e r e i secome

,...------------------------------------ - - - - - - - "1J!II1

2 than a chance o f e xe cu tin g in no ce nt peop le .3 1 don ' t t h i nk anyone , if asked , i f4 they were wi l l i ng to a l low one o f t h e i r fami ly5 members, f r i e n d ~ , ; o r acqua in ta l lce o r cO-\vorkers to oe6 the sac r i f ie i a .I. 1 a Inb If'0 u .1d a 9 r : e t ha t t Iie y we r l ., wil l ing t.o do t h a t . I would imagine even if I asked3 t ~ 0 p r ~ s e c u t ( l r 5 i :Hli " i dua l ly pe r s ona l l y if t hey9 would be wi l l i n g to do t h a t , t h e i r answers would

10 probab ly be th e sarne as mine , a l t hough I don ' t11 p re t end to speak fo r them.12 With no othe r gu idance from a13 h i ghe r cou r t o th e r than th e guidance cha rg ing th e1 trial cour t s wi th th e du ty of be i ng ga tekeepe r s ,

15 t h i s i s probab ly the most d i f f i c u l t dec i s ion I1ve16 had to make in my l im i t ed t ime on th e B:TIch. But I17 am no t p r e p a r ~ d to say t h a t ou r s o c i e t y , t h a t ou r18 c i t i z en ry i s wi l l i ng to let i nnocen t peop le d ie so19 t h a t th e s t a t e o f Texas can have a dea t h pena l t y .20 Acting as ga t e k e ep e r and strictly21 as ga tekeepe r and having to make t h a t dec i s i on ,22 t h a t ' s what I so f ind and I 'm go ing to g r an t th e2 _'_oJ de f e nd an t ' s motion and we ' l l let a h ig he r cou rt o f24 g r e a t e r wisdom make th e u l t ima t e d e c i s i o n .25 Hope fu l l y t h a t be ing th e Supreme Cour t o f the Uni ted


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1 s t a t e s . So Motion to Hold That Texas Code o f2 Crimina l Procedure Ar t i c l e 37.01 Uncons t i . t u t i ona l i s3 granted_45 Honor. .678

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NR. KEIRNAN: ' rhank you, Your

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

.. - ,


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12 THE COURT: Okay.

.J: *;."

"let me --

59- - lI

3 I 111 ._u I'll Reade r ' s Dige s t it the bes1: I can_4 Because t h e r e a r e no gu id ing ca se5 law, I 'm only gu ided by -- o t h e r t han lDw t h a t6 r equ i r e s - - case l aw, Uni ted s t a t e s Supreme Cour t7 case law th a t re qu ir e s t h a t I p lay th e ro l e o f8 ga t ekeepe r when it comes to what ou r s o c i e t y deems9 i s f a i r and decen t and as ga t ekeepe r and my on ly10 gu id ing p r i n c i p l e be ing th e ve ry t a c t t h a t we have11 had over 200 i nnocen t peop l e exonera t ed from12 1I.merica' 5 dea t h 1:0WS can on l y l e a d to th e conc lus ion13 t h a t we have , in f a c t , execu t ed i nnoc en t peop l e .14 ~ : my be l i e f t h a t no one would be wi l l i n g to al low15 one o f thei1: loved ones , as I s a i d be f o r e ,. .. : r- .16 a s s o c i a t e s , f r i e nd s , co -wo rk e r s , s u f f e r th e dea th17 pena l t y , to be one o f th e i nnocen t ones t h a t s u f f e r s18 th e dea th pena l t y so t h a t th e S t a t e o f Texas can19 have a dea t h pen a l t y , I t h i nk because o f th e media20 a t t e n t i on on th e dea th pena l t y , th e r e c en t21 morator ium on th e dea th pena l t y a coup le yea r s ou t22 o f I l l i n o i s and our chang ing i d e a s o f f a i r n e s s and23 decency compels me to r u l e t h a t , in f a c t , th e24 s t a t u t e i s uncon s t i t u t i o n a l _25 I s t h e r e -- if I need to s t a t e


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1 a n y t h i n g more, c o n s i d e r s o m e t h i n g e l s e , p l e a s e l e t2 me know. I'll be happy t o do t h a t ; b u t i n a3 R e a d e r ' s D i g e s t v e r s i o n , t h a t i s my f i n d i n g and4 r u l i n g .

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MR. KEIRNAN: Thank you, Your

( P r o c e e d i n g s a d j o u r n e d . )

5678

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Honor.

a d j o u r n e d .

MR. LOPER:THE COURT:

Thank you.A l l r i g h t . We a r e

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