erbs july 8 transcript

8/7/2019 ERBS July 8 Transcript

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STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT COURT

Branch I

CHIPPEWA COUNTY

3 In re the Marriage of:

4 JEFFREY P. ERBS,

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and

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MARY ANN ERBS,

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Petitioner,

Respondent.

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Case No. 10FA11

(Moti.onHearing)

10 The above-entitled matter coming on to be

11 heard before the Honorable Roderick A. Cameron, Circuit

12 Court Judge, on the 8th day of July, 2010, commencing

14 Chippewa Falls, County of Chippewa, State of Wisconsin.

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at the hour of 9:35 p.m. at t~e Courthouse in the City of

APPEARANCES:

JEFFREY P. ERBS, the Petitioner, appearing pro se.

18 PAMELA J. VEITH, Attorney at Law, P.O. Box 1628,

19 Eau Claire, Wisconsin 54702, appearing as counsel for and

20 on behalf of the Respondent.

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PROCEEDINGS:

THE COURT: This ~s Case 10 FA 11. I t ' s i n

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reo The Marriage of Jeffrey P. Erbs. Petitioner. and

Mary Ann Erbs. Respondent. Mr. Erbs appears in person

and is self-represented. Ms. Erbs appears in person

with Attorney Pamela Veith. This is the time :or tr.e

Court to hear motions, at least to the extent that ti~e

8 allows. I believe all the motions are Mr. Erbs' A m I

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correct, Ms. Veith?

MS. VEITH: Yes, you are, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Erbs, how do you wish to

proceed on your motion? Which one do you want to take

up first?

MR. ERBS: The most I want to move on first

is I want you to take judicial notice of your oath and

the constit~tions of Wiscop.sin and the United States.

THE COURT: For what purpose?

MR. ERBS: You are a defendant.

THE COURT: What?

MR. ERBS: You are a d efendant in a Writ of

Mandamus.

THE COURT: That :ile was assigned to Judge

Cray.

MR. ERRS: You are a defendant. There is no

way you can be unprejudiced and unbias.

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decide.

MR. ERBS: There is a W rit of Mandamus that

so I have no basis to even consider it.

MR. ERBS: Ask for another judge to decide

I believe I'm impartial as any

I think your oath says you sha~l

: don't ~now tow you can proceed

I think the writ should have been

I think you are going to find something

MR. ERBS:

MR. ERBS:

THE COURT: Those are only allegations and

THE COURT:

where you are a defenda~t lr.a case against you by me.

THE COURT: Well, that was your choice to

bring it and the fact that you bring an action in a

~ot do something.

THE COURT: That's for another judge to

not do what you are doing right now, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What am I doing what I am not

supposed to do?

filed with the Court of Appeals. That's a different

issue.

not proof.

cannot order another circulL judge to do something or

out. You are going to find that one circuit judge

explains a lot of it, Your Honor.

that then.

judge can be to both parties and your allegation

doesn't have any factual basis presented at this point,

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that.

hearing.

that point, so she couldn't have even responded to

separate co~rt to change one of the .decisions ln this

case doesn't mean I am bias.

I don't know what's been pending

I looked at it yesterday and I

"l's on there to change any o~MR. ERBS:

THE COURT:

THE COURT:

THE COURT: What were those?

MR. ERBS: I can get them out.

TEE COURT: Ms. Veith wasn't even on board at

MR. ERBS: No one has :0 respond to it for a

default judgment.

THE COURT: The 90-day period, Mr. Erbs,

for more than 90 days for a decision.

MR. ERBS: That decision for the February 26

your decisions.

realized it was not a motion for this case but a

separate action and you are asking for my decisions to

be overridden by another judge and I be ordered to make

changes in what I decided, right?

MR. ERBS: No, that is wrong. In t he writ T

am asking you to make decisions that are well over

your 90-day limit for making decisions. According Lo

Supreme Court Rule 730.36, you are well over that.

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We have a lot of motions that you have filed here and -

can see that you would ever be nondiscriminatory and

unbiased in a situation such as this.

the motions that were filed after the last hearing. We

will just take them one at a time.

THE COURT: What's t~e basis for your belief

that I am biased?

MR. ERBS: The same basis that I don't have a

I'll just go back to

I said there is no way -

I'm goi~g to deny the motion.

I d o not see where you have

MR. ERBS: No way

MR. ERBS:

THE COURT:

think we should go through them.

jurisdiction.

THE COURT: On w~at basis?

MR. ERBS: According to your oath and the

constitutions of Wisconsin and the United States.

THE COURT: Will yo~ cite some more specific

facts to support your a:legations?

doesn't start until the case :s ready fo~ decision.

If w e need a hearing on that and Mr. Veith wanted to

respond, that starting time for a 90-day period for tte

determination is not -- would not have started.

MR. ERBS: That's not for you to declde.

That's for another judge to decide. Again, I ask for a

~escheduling of this hearing.

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decision from which was, actually, January 19 and was

brought to your attention on February 26.

THE COURT: What was that motion about I'~

supposed to decide?

MR. ERBS: Pardon me?

THE COURT: What was your motion for

February 26?

8 MR. ERBS: It was a default -- default

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judgment and there were also --

THE COURT: Well, what default?

MR. ERBS: -- asking for rellef from the

disqualification motion.

THE COURT: You've got a r equest for a

default judgment and the default judgment would be for

what?

MR. ERBS: That would have been in the

January 19 so-called temporary hearing where

Commissioner Ferg left the ltem of maintenance open and

also I asked for continuation of insurance benefits and

the payment of all medical expenses.

MS. VEITH: Your Honor, if I may, I think I

may clarify this. From my understanding, when Mr. Erbs

scheduled the first temporary hearing in front of

Commissioner Ferg, shortly thereafter my client had

retained Mr. Liptak. Mr. Liptak's office, as I

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understand from information provided by Ms. Erbs,

contacted Mr, Ferg to reschedule that temporary heacing

3 because he was not available. It was Mr. Liptak's

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understanding and my client's understanding that the

hearing was rescheduled. Unfortunately, it did not get

changed for some reason on Mr. Ferg's calendar and

Mr. Erbs was not notified it was rescheduled, so he

appeared on January 19. ~y client, Mr. ~iptak, did not

appear. The Court proceeded with the hearing at that

10 time. I think what Mr. Erbs is arguing, that :or so~c

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reason because of my client's failure to appeac at Lhat

hearing, he is entitled to default judgment in this

entire case, which, obviously, is not correct.

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TEE COURT:

MR. ERBS:

Is that your argument, Mr. Erbs?

I did not say the entire case and

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I would like to object.

THE COURT: What do you want for a default

judgment?

MR. ERBS: The maintenance issue, the payment

of medical funds and the continuance of insurance

coverage.

THE COURT: You have a response on that

besides anything you have already said?

24 MS. VEITH: In terms of the maintenance

25 issue, my client, Ms. Erbs, is not residing in the

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payments.

that's also part the Court Commissioner's too. No one

was there. You don't s~ow up, you lose your due

continuance of health care insurance was brought up,

and since it was the respondent -- neither the

respondent nor her attorney were present there as part

of that -- I d on't have that with me -- out it says

there that the judge would rule irregardless of and

record, deny your motio~ for a default judgment. A

temporary hearing was held shortly after the action was

started. It was held within the 120 d ays. Less than

120 days after the action was held, the Court can't

even hear anything at t~at time. There was an Answer

filed by Mr. Liptak at some point here on January 20,

I'm going to, on the

of medical expenses and the

I asked for t~ose things then and I haven'tprocess.

payment of medical

MR. ERBS: What you are looking at is the

Amended Temporary Order.

THE COURT: Right.

MR. ERBS: That was on February 1.

THE COURT: Correct.

MR. ERBS: The temporary hearing was on

January 19. This is when the items ot maintenance ana

gotten them yet.

THE COURT: Okay.

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MR. ERBS: You are denying myself maintenance

because it hasn't been brought up as an issue in this

so the issues were contested, so it'.s not as though :hc

issues werer.'t contested. Court Commissioner ?erg,

MR. ERBS: Why wasn'c it asked for on

February 1st then?

I've

I wasn't there.

yes, for now I am

I am denying it one hundred

I am not

~ don1t know.

THE COURT:

THE COURT:

MR. ERBS: What you are doing here 1S

legislating from the ber.ch because there was

THE COURT: Mr. Erbs, stop. The issue of

also?

default judgment is done.

percent.

difficult to get a default judgment in a divorce.

never had it happen.' : mean, you can get them after

the 120 days if somebody doesn't appear and never shows

up in the action, but in this case the representation

from Ms. Veith is that Ms. Erbs' former attorney

obtained a different da:e for :he temporary hearing

because he was unava1lable and for reasons probably

not --

according to the original temporary order, held

maintenance open at tha: time, so he, obviously, denoed

your motion as we"l and, technically, it's very

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court. What I am saying is M s. Erbs still makes the

mortgage payments. You still cive in the house.

MR. ERBS: And I have no income.

4 THE COURT: I can cancel her obligation to

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payment mortgage payments and have her pay maintenance

in the same amount which will be taxable.

MR. ERBS: Mai~te~ance would be half of her

gross pay.

THE COURT: That's a starting point under

~aRocgue, not a final answer. We have other motions

you filed here.

MR. ERBS: I am going to a sk for this court

:0 adjourn right now. I can see where this is going,

what I figured you were going to do here when I c ame

into this court and it was scheduled for 45 minutes

with all these motions you are going to run through.

You are not going to allow me to make a record on any

of this and you weren't going to take any evidence and

what you are going to do is run through it and make it

impossible for me to have anything on the record to

appeal and that's exactly what you are doing here.

THE COURT: Do you want to respond,

Ms. Veith?

MS. V EITH: Sure, Your Honor. Mr. Erbs can

appeal any decision by this Court on an interlocutory

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complete. My client will probably review the responses

pleading, so it cook me some time to find it and to

realize this was actually a request for discovery. We

except the motion to compel discovery.

On the motion to compel discovery, I will

that I received from Mr. Liptak, the discovery, which

is a one-page statement, and I can provide a copy to

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It wasn't in ~r.e

It is almost

If Mr. Erbs continues

In the transfer of the file

I will advise the Court at this

The point is this:

In fact, no basis ~n law for any of his motions

Court, including our request for attorney's fees.

along this path in filing ~otions that are without

merit, we will seek the appropriate relief from the

have been working on the discovery.

certainly will get them to him wichin the ten-day

period that he requested in his written motion. One of

Mr. Erbs' motions is to disqualify me, apparently, or

have the Court disqualify me, which we have already

decided.

today and sign them and I w ill get them to Mr. Erbs.

che Court, is not in the proper form.

advise the Court of this:

basis.

point so Mr. Erbs is aware, I have reviewed all of his

motions. All of them, with the exception of his motion

to compel discovery, are without merit and also no

appeal, if he wishes.1

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will also advise the Court that Mr. Erbs' health

~nsurance has been maintained through my client th~ough

her employment. He continues to have health ~nsurance.

That is my response to the various motions that

Mr. Erbs has filed.

THE COURT: You wish to respond to that,

Mr. Erbs?

8 MR. ERBS: Yes. I obJect to Attorney Ve~th

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acting as judge, Jury and hangman. We haven't had any

of this in front of a court. That's her opinion, only

her opinion, not having to do with fact, and what sr.e

says is undoubtedly her opinion, just as what T put

down here is what I think and that's why we have

courts, to decide issues l~ke this.

TEE COURT: Well, let's address the issue.

You raised an issue again in your motions here that

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actual ordered them to be filed within ten days of the

hearing on April 22, but you filed motions June 20th.

One is to again disqualify Attorney Pame:a Veith and we

21 made a full record on that at the last hearing. I read

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the transcript of the last hearing and I don't see any

basis in fact for the Court, one, to reconsider it or,

two, if I did reconsider it, to grant it. There is n o

indication from any of your statements that Ms. Veith

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obtained any information from Attorney Liptak that

pertain to his representation of you in your divorce

from your first wife.

MR. ERBS: How do you know?

THE COURT: You need to prove it t hat she go~

information from him. She testified or stated to the

Court as an officer of the court -- let me finish

that she received the file from Mr. Liptak, that there

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just, basically, a pleading and the documents that she

is entitled to have from the previous attorney. She

had no information from him based on what she stated ln

court on April 22 as to any communications Ms. Erbs

made to him or that you might have made to him at some

point back during the limited time he represented you

in a post-divorce proceeding from your first marriage.

And I granted the motion to disqualify because,

technically, he was disqualified. I did not find he

actually received or had my knowledge that would have

made his representation a conflict of interest, but

there is a presumption there. That's why I

disqualified him.

There's also no evidence in the record that

he had done anything improper. That wasn't the

standard. The standard was the appearance, so I

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THE COURT: April 22.

record, when we were here --

THE COURT: Today, the motion 1S denied. You

have not presented any such thing.

MS. VEITH: Your Honor, I would note for the

disqualified him and Attorney Mullen and Ms. Erbs is

here and Attorney Veith and the disqualification of the

first law firm doesn't extend to the firm that receives

the file in the new case.

MR. ERBS: No, it doesn't, but it does apply

~o the file and the records.

THE COURT: Not as I'm r uling. You can

appeal that.

MR. ERBS: No, you are to d eal on facts.

THE COURT: Mr. Erbs, I have made my

decision. Don't press me on this. We have more

motions here.

MR. ERBS: You are doing exactly as I figured

you would. You are runnlng through all of this.

That's what you are doing.

TEE COURT: Do you have some evidence you

wish to present showing some conflict :rom Ms. Veith,

improper knowledge she has?

1 would like to have time toMR. E RBS: No.

get that.

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evidence. He hasn't done so.

THE COURT: Two and a half months ago.

time to get received -- two and a half months to get

information, he knew this date was scheduled back at

motion in the affidavit.

THE COURT: I read it. = did not find any

evidence in there that justified that. We are going to

move on, Mr. Erbs.

if Mr. Erbs needed

I a~ going to present that te

-- April 22 .-

I think the evidence is ln my

He has an obligation to present the

MR. ERRS:

MR. ERBS: No.

MS. VEITH: Right.

MS. VEITH:

THE COURT: No, you are not. That lssue is

I decided that April 22. You presented nothi~g

the court.

new to the Court except allegations of law.

MR. ERBS: You are not allowing any evidence,

evidentiary hearing. All we are doing is scheduling.

That's what was accomp:ished at the scheduling

conference, that's it. No evidentiary hearing, no

motions brought for you to rule en and, once again, I

would like to you to ta~e judicial notice of your oatr.,

the Wisconsin Constitution and the Const:tutio~ of the

United States.

over.

that hearing.

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THE COURT: Okay. You had a motion you fl:ed

after the last hearing on April 30, a motion to strike

the pleading and we discussed that already in this

hearing. Do you have any additional comments or

argument you want to make in support of that motion to

strike the pleading?

MR. ERBS: Where did we discuss that?

TEE COURT: A~ the start of this hearing we

discussed it. You alleged --

MR. ERBS: Reporter, could you read it back

to me, please?

TEE COURT: We are not reading it back. You

alleged that because Mr. Liptak and Ms. Erbs didn't

appear for a temporary ~earing, you could have all 0 :

:he pleading that she filed stricken and get a defa~it

judgment for whatever you were asking for and I denied

:hat already in this hearing, so I'm also denying the

part of the motion that would require the Court to

strike the pleading. There is n o is b asis in law for

that.

MR. ERBS: Why haven't we heard any evidence

on that?

THE COURT: What evidence would there be to

strike the pleading?

MR. ERBS: How about the validity of a

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contract? How about the value of his work?

TEE COURT: Whose work?

MR. ERBS: There is fraud i~vo:ved i~ this

case. Ms. Erbs knew or should have known that ~he

hiring of Mr. Liptak was in violation of law.

Certainly, Mr. Liptak should have known that.

THE COURT: Let's assume that :s correct.

How does that justify the Court striking the ~~swer and

letting you get whatever you want without regard to the

facts of the case?

MR. ERBS: Because there was fraud committed

in the case and that vlolates any contract. There is

fraud involved not only by the respondent and the

hiring of Mr. Liptak under, I presume, the vote by Mark

Mullen, but also by Mr. Liptak taking the job oecause

in some of the court cases that : have gone through, iL

says when there's a doubt in conflict of interest

cases, violations of conf:dences, both have to be to

disqualified. We also have an attorney that will even

do anything that appears to be inappropriate.

THE COURT; I agree with that.

MR. ERBS; Uh-huh.

THE COURT: That's why I disqualified him,

because there was an appearance. There is no evidence

that anything improper actual:y occurred.

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MR. ERBS: There doesn't need to be.

THE COURT: Not for a disqualification, no.

3 MR. ERBS: I believe it is a rebuttable

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presumption that there had been confidences exchanged

between Mr. Liptak and myself and also between Mr.

Liptak and the respondent. They had an attorney --

attorney-client relationship.

THE COURT: That may be, but it doesn't

Justify Ms. Erbs being told that ~er pleadings are

stricken, her Answer is stricken, her Counterclaim 1S

stricken and you get whatever you want without regard

to the actual facts in the case. That's what you are

asking for, correct?

f..'

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judicial notice of your oath, of the wisconsin

Constitution and also the Constitution of the United

States and you are violating my rights to a fair trial

right now for you to even be sitting up in this court.

THE COURT: We haven't scheduled the trial

yet, Mr. Erbs.

MR. ERBS: How are you making orders right

then?

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THE COURT: These are pretrial motions.

think the phrase a little knowledge is a dangerous

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1848.

are not there, that's it, it's a default. That's what

default judgment for the basis -- for the reasons I sec

forth in the record already. If you want to appeal

there is no one there, it's a default, you make the

ruling.

If

If you

I am denying the motion for a

I have to choose the interpretation

THE COURT:

it also says in the commissioner's duties also.

interpretation.

that everybody is required to fo:low, which is what you

are required to follow as well and, unfortunately, you

don't understand or don't ~ave the knowledge or refuse

to accept, whatever it is, that some of your

interpretations aren't t~e ones that are generally

accepted and ones you are proffering to the Court are

not the interpretations that the courts of Wisconsin

have followed since the state came into existence in

And that's what it says also in the summons.

knowledge of legal proceedings. You are interpreting

them the way you would like them to be interpreted, and

there are laws I'd like to ir.terpret differently at

times as well and the fact is I can't choose my

MR. ERBS: On January 19 there was two cases

of mine heard by Commissioner Ferg and he definite:y

did orders without the other party being there. Okay.

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this to the Court of Appeals, I have no objection to

:hat.

MR. ERBS: I move for adjournment.

THE COURT: As I said, the Court of Appeals

has reversed me and I suspect they will reverse me

again.

MR. ERBS: Let's go at it, stop this, right?

I will do an interlocutory appeal.

9 THE COURT: In the meantime, we need a

10 temporary order. I am going to order Ms. Veith to

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provide discovery within ten days of today. You wan:ed

that, right?

MR. ERBS: I wanted it on February 18.

THE COURT: Well, the motion was brought to

the Court for hearing today ana today I'm deciding that

she is to provide the required discovery to you wit~in

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ten days in writing.

not?

Is L~at satisfactory to you or

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MR. ERBS: One thing.

THE COURT: What's the one thing?

MR. ERBS: The discovery.

THE COURT: I ordered her to provide it

within ten days. Are you objecting to that?

MR. E RBS: No.

THE COURT: Okay. Your motion to disqualify

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basis ln any your pleading to disqualify Attorney

Veith.

Attorney Veith was denied at the hearing on April 22

and the Court stands by that decision. It will not

does, in fact, take an interlocutory appeal, the record

that is o n file with the court goes up. The Court of

Appeals will have it.

proof for appeal, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What's your offer of proof?

MR. ERBS: You read my affidavit and motion.

MS. VEITH: I believe :he motion and

If Mr. Erbs

It's on record with the

I don't have any basis in fact or

I have read all your pleadings

I would like to make an offer ofMR. ERBS:

THE COURT:

It's already part of the record.

I read all your pleadings this morning. No

change its decision.

Court.

affidavit has been filed.

this morning.

MR. ERBS: = would like to read that.

THE COURT: If you don't stop interrupting,

you are going to be ~n c ontempt. Let me repeat what I

said.

law to do that except some unsupported allegations ~n

your documents.

MR. ERBS: Unsupported allegations? I nave

plenty of support ln here for that.

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TEE COURT: That's abso~utely correct,

Mr. Erbs. The document is already on fi:e. The Courl

of Appeals can read it just as w ell as you can. The

only other issue I think we haven't addressed is Mr.

Erbs' motior. for contempt against Ms. Erbs and I

believe it refers to return of property that was

7 ordered to be glven to Mr. Eros. I think it was his

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son's bow and arrow set, is that right?

MS. VEITH: Yes, Your Honor. _ can provide

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the Court with my client's response to that.

THE COURT: What's her response?

MS. VEITH: The response is this: The bow

and arrows that the Court lS speaking of Mr. Erbs

actually had given to Ms. Erbs' grandson.

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MR. ERBS: Object.

testimony? This is hearsay.

Is Ms. Veith giving

17 MS. VEITH: I car. certainly call my client to

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have her testify and ma~e an offer if the Court wishes

to have testimony.

THE COURT: Well, I think we should some

testimony here. Ms. Erbs, come up to the clerk and be

22 sworn.

23 MARY ANN ERBS

24 called as a witness, and b eing first duly sworn, was-

25 examined and testified as follows:

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3 BY MS. VEITH:

THE COURT: Have a seat to m y left, please.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

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Q

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Will you state your full name, please?

Mary Ann Erbs.

Ms. Erbs, you are the respondent in this matter?

Yes.

You have read Mr. Erbs' motion requesting that the

Court hold you in contempt?

I have.

One of the allegations by Mr. Erbs is that, apparently,

the bow or arrows were not returned to him as required

by the Court's order?

Well, the bow was returned to him along with new

arrows. The bow was given to my grandson, Ryan. He

denies that at this time, but it was given to him. He

17 told him it belonged to Thomas. It was a yout~ bow ar.d

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that this -- how special it was and he should take good

care of it and that it did have -- need some repairs

because whatever you call it was, you have to pull it,

et cetera, so Ryan accepted the bow. He was thrilled

because he and Thomas were quite close, actually, and

he had it fixed. He had a q uiver put on it. The

arrows that were with the bow were blaze orange and

they were kind of aluminum and more like practice-type

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arrows, not very strong.

the 15th and I couldn't get into the house. The locks

with me and I e-mailed Jeff and told him I was not

coming back for awhile because I needed some space and

if he needed to contact me, he should call me at work

Whose mother wrote that?

Ryan's mother, my daughter-ln-law.

All right. Mr. Erbs also alleges that you damaged the

locks at the residence on or about January 15 or 16.

I did go to the home on the evening of January 15 after

I had taken some clothes

I went there on the evening of

I d id get the bow and returned it to him.

Anyway, when Jeff demanded the bow back in

I had left when I went to work on the 11th of

the fall.

work.

They had new arrows in there because the original

arrows were broken. They did remove the quiver which

they had purchased because there was none on there,

but, otherwise, the bow was in better shape than it was

when Ryan was glven it.

There was also, apparently, some magic marker written

on the bow?

His mother had written "In memory of Thomas Erbs" and

at the time Jeff actually saw that and thought it was

nice.

January, which is a Monday.

or call my cell phone.

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Q

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have, Your Honor.

Yes.

Have you returned those tax documents to Mr. Erbs?

THE COURT: ~r. Erbs, do you have my

questions for Ms. Erbs?

MR. E RBS: Yes.

originals returned to them. Actually, Stanley LaRue,

who is a neighbor and friend of both of ours, took

those returr.s back to Jeff.

MS. VEI,H: Those are all the questions I

I made copies of all of them and then I h ad theYes.

had been changed.

January 15, was that before or after the first

temporary hearing?

That was before because that first one was on the 19th

which, actually, c didn't go to because it was

rescheduled and, in fact, Les LiptaK had called Jeff

from his office and told hin that he had gotten it

rescheduled. He was calling because it was Martin

Luther King Day and there wouldn't be any mail to go

out. That's why he called hi~.

You originally had possession of the original -- your

original copies of tax returns that were filed wlth the

Department of Revenue and the Internal Revenue Service,

is that correct?

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CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. ERBS:

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You are under oath, co"rect?

Yes.

I never gave that bow to Ryan. I gave it to him to use

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and it's not only missing a quiver, it's missi~g two c"

three releases that are about $45 ap~ece and it's

missing about six blaze orange arrows and a couple of

other arrows, and the writing on the bow 1S destruction

of private property.

You gave

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MS. VEITH: Just a moment.

object.

THE COURT: She can respond.

You gave the bow to Ryan.

I a m going to

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You are telling me I gave the bow to Ryan?

Yes, you did and the only reason you wanted it back --

MR. ERBS: Objection.

TEE COURT: Objection overruled. She may

continue the answer.

THE WITNESS: The only reason i think you

wanted it back ~s because -- T don't know what to even

call it -- the incident of the fall where there was

just some incident that started with a Face-Book

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posting that Jeff made and some argument between Audrey

and -- Audrey, my daughter-in-law, Ryan's mother, and

Jeff and, I think, after that, that's when he demanded

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4 the bow back. It was kind of a retribution-type thing.

5 BY MR. ERBS:

THE COURT: Well, anyway, any more questions.

THE WITNESS: There was no quiver on the bow.

One of those personal incidents being your

daughter-in-law telling me that I am responsible for my

son Thomas' death?

I don't think that has anything -- she didn't say that,

but that has nothing to do with the bow. You did give

the bow to Ryan.

No.

I woued like the arrows back and

_ am misslng things from my son'sMR. ERBS:

bow. He is deceased.

Mr. Erbs?

qUlvers.

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Erbs. Do you have anything that came with the bow and

That's what they are telling you. You don't know that

personally.

Can you prove there was a qUlver on the bow?

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A

THE COURT: I have one question for you, Ms.

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Erbs?

thing --

MR. ERBS: Yes, they were.

THE COURT: Have the locks been fixed, Mr.

that's a different issue and that would be an issue as

part of the property division. Do you have any -- did

you ever daffiageany locks at the residence?

I did not damage the lOCKS.

I don't have that with me.

THE WITNESS:

If there some things tr.at are lost and missing,

that court order.

point.

arrow set that your gra~dson had for awh:le that has

~ot been returned to Mr. Erbs?

THE WITNESS: No, = do not, and the only

THE COURT: You ~ave answered ny question.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

THE COURT: I think what we need to do here

is set aside the difference in value here as an issue

for property division down the road because we have an

issue of fact, and unless Ms. Erbs is lying through r.er

teeth, which I highly doubt, I don't believe she has

anything left of the bow and a~~ow set to return to Mr.

Erbs, so there is nothing I can do to compel at this

MR. ERBS: The summons fe~ her to go to cou~t

said she was not supposed to go onte the premises

occupied by me. That's a court order. She violated

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here.

MS. VEITH: Your Honor, I think Mr. Erbs is

referring to the order to show cause and affidavit for

temporary order that was signed by Commissioner Ferg on

January 12 --

THE COURT: She was there .on Friday the 15th

of January, is that correct?

THE WITNESS: Right.

THE COURT: Okay. Let me see what I can find

I see that.THE COURT:

MS. VEITH: 2010. How it was --

THE COURT: He was served on January 12th.

MS. VEITH: Right.

THE COURT: So, technically, she wasn't

supposed to be on the prem~ses.

MS. VEITH: Well, this ~s a residence that

was owned by both of them. Thece was no heacir.g

remov~ng her from the residence.

MR. ERBS: It's a temporary injunction.

MS. VEITH: It's not a temporary injunction.

The Court doesn't have'any authority to remove one from

the property that they co-owned without a hearing

unless the Court ~ssues an ex parte order and there lS

no basis for an ex parte order in this case removing

her from the residence.

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1 TEE COURT: ~ere's what it says: It says

2 both parties are prohibited from going upon the

3 property occupied as a residence. I don't know where

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Ms. Erbs was living at the time this was served. So

any more questions you would like to ask her, Mr. Erbs?

6 BY MR. ERBS:

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Q What would have happened if I would done ~he same

thing?

9 THE COURT: It's speculative. We are not

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going to get into that.

MR. ERBS: Exactly. That's getting back ~o

my --

THE COURT: Any more questions on the

contempt issue?

MR. ERBS: Yes, she is saying she brought

16 back all the missing tax returns. T tried to find my

17 business information, which was with the tax returns.

18 It was misslng. I don': have it back. I needed it and

19 it cost a pretty good sum of money, like four months of

20 $1,829 a mor.th because I didn't have those. I had some

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phone books or whatever they are, documents, with my

business information in ~hem. ~hat was in with the tax

stuff.

THE COURT: You need to ask her questions

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32/43

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tax returns.

THE WITNESS: I did not have any Dome books.

3 All I h ave were the returns. There were no Dome books

4 in that box.

5 BY MR. ERBS:

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You violated the order to show cause. You went to the

property and now you are telling me -- am I to believe

this?

I a m under oath and I a~ telling you, I did not have

the Dome books. They were not in the box.

And also I g ave the bow to Ryan?

Yes.

My son says the bow, that is irreplaceable?

Yes.

Uh-huh. Okay. Thomas was gOlng to give that bow to

Ryan.

THE COURT: Any more questions, Mr. Erbs?

MR. ERBS: Yes. Those forms were in there

because they were part of the taxes. We took the taxes

to your tax accountant and they're not at the house.

,hey are gone, okay, and it costs me a pile of money.

THE COURT: She testified the Dome books were

not there. Do you have any more questions?

24 MR. ERBS: I am saying that they were.

25 THE COURT: Well, I know, but you are not

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that time. Regardless, she's not gone upon the

premises since, to my knowledge, without court

testifying right now. Ms. Veith, do you have any more

questions for your client?

MS. VEITH: No, Your Hop-or.

THE COURT: You may step down.

(Witness excused.)

THE COURT: Do you want to testify, ~r. Eros,

about the Dome book or locks or p-o:?

difference in court, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, that's your opinion, no:

~ine. There are four 1ssues here on contempt. One 1S

the bow and arrow set and it appears that Ms. Erbs

returned everything she had to Mr. Erbs [rom that set.

He believes there's more to it that should have been

returned and any missing parts w:ll be an 1ssue for

property division down the road.

There is an allegation tr.at locks were

damaged. She denies damaging any locks, although she

found on January :5 they had been changed. There was

an order prohibit:ng either party from going on the

premises occupied by the other as a residence and

there's no evidence as to where Ms. Erbs is living on

the date of January 15. = suspect she had moved out by

T don't think it would make anyMR. ERBS:

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permission, if she's gone at all, and if that's the

case, the Court can only order remedial contempt ar.d

the issue has been resolved.

Regarding the Dome books, I think that's a

fact issue for property division. Ms. Erbs testified

there were none. Mr. Erbs is claiming there were.

He's claiming because they weren't provided to him in a

timely manner, in fact, not provided at all, according

to Mr. Erbs, he lost about $1,800 a month or more, so

that would be a potential issue for property division.

Are there any other lssues the Court needs to decide

this morning?

MS. VEITH: Not that I am aware of, Your

Honor, no.

THE COURT: Mr. Erbs, do you have any other

issues that need to be brought ~p that haven't been

decided already?

MR. ERBS: No.

THE COURT: What should we schedule next?

MS. VEITH: I request we schedule a final

hearing.

TEE COURT: How ~uch time will that take?

~ow much time should I set aside, probably the more

appropriate question.

MS. VEITH: Probably a day.

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THE COURT: Do you think that will be

sufficient?

MR. ERBS: I have no idea what the respondent

is g oing to be asking. I have to be notified what's

going on so I c an properly present a case in this

matter.

THE COURT: Let me get a calendar and I will

select the trial date and I'll make some other orders

after the clerk returns. My calendar has an opening

for all day on Friday the 17th of September.

MS. VEITH: That won't work for m e, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: On the 20th I have most of the

day, but I have an hour set aside for another hearing

on another family case at 1:30.

MS. VEITH: I have got a trial the next day

in Dunn County, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay. The 19th of October is,

available.

MS. VEITH: I have got a final pretrial in

Clark County. That's in person.

THE COURT: Then I have time on the 28th or

29th of October.

MS. VEITH: I'll do it o n O ctober 28, Judge.

I h ave a trial the day before, but I will just make it

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work.

TEE COURT: ~s that agreeable with you, Mr.

3 Erbs, as far as being available?

4 MR. ERBS: It k ind of interferes with my

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Halloween plans, but 1 ~hink 1 can put ~hat aside, Your

Honor.

THE C OURT: Okay. Trial will be starting at

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entire day.'

I have set aside the

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MR. ERBS: What are the issues?

TEE COURT: The issues will be your request

for maintenance. The other issue will be property

division. Are there any issues besides that that the

Court needs to address?

MS. VEI~H: The only issue related to

property division, Your Honor, that my client does have

some assets that you were inherited by her and she is,

obviously, requesting that those be awarded to her

pursuant to statute.

TEE COURT: That's fairly typical in these

21 cases. I want each side to submit a written property

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proposal to the other side, with a copy to the Court,

oy September 28.

MR. ERBS: What is that to include?

THE COURT: Your proposal for how the Cour~

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should decide the case.

MR. ERBS: ~d another couple issues. I'm

permanently disabled. _ cannot work anymore. I have

no income that I can work and that's another thing.

THE COURT: That's your mai~tenance request,

right, basis for your maintenance request?

MR. ERBS: Part of ~he basis for the property

division also.

THE COURT: Your proposal how the case should

be decided, what you want for maintenance, how you want

the property division to be done.

MR. ERBS: Okay.

THE COURT: Under Wisconsin law, if a party

has inherited or gifted asse~s, those are to be

disclosed on the property divlSiop., but they are

generally exempt from the property division.

MR. ERBS: That is the p urpose of my

discovery, to find out if, indeed, it is inherited.

TEE COURT: O~e fact the Court may follow or

consider is the assets brought to the marriage by each

party and that is fairly discretionary with the trial

court.

we

Pardop.?MR. ERBS:

THE COURT: Okay.

MS. VEITH: Just so the Court is aware

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It's not taxable income, in other

income.

THE COURT: But it needs to be reported for

the purposes of your request for maintenance.

I am approved.MR. ERBS: Year..

THE COURT: Are you getting them now?

MR. ERBS: Yeah.

THE COURT: How much do you get a m onth?

MR. ERBS: $1,829.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. ERBS: That is n ot considered to b e

can also provide Mr. Erbs with discovery requests

it's our understanding that Mr. Srbs is pursuing a

disability claim with the -- with the Social Security

Administration, so we need disclosure about that as

well.

THE COURT: Do you understand that, Mr. Erbs?

MR. ERBS: The disclosure?

THE COURT: You need -- as part of your

disclosure, financial disclos~re, you need to advise

Ms. Veith, your wife's attorney, as to the status of

your application for Social Security Disability

benefits. Do you understar.d that?

THE COURT:

words, right?

MR. ERBS: It's not lncome.

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Ms. Veith.

comply with her d:scovery request within ten days:

MR. ERBS: I'm not sure if it d oes or not.

THE COURT: "t does because I am ordering it

TEE COURT: Okay. Anything else that needs

to be put or. the agenda?

I just would ~ike to know

I would like a discovery request

I will be checking on that.

If you are getting 21 or $22,000 a

MR. ERBS:

MR. ERBS:

MS. VEITH: No.

the date that Mr. Erbs --

THE COURT: Ten days. Mr. Erbs, you need :0

MR. ERBS: As far as I understand from the

Social Security, that is not.

TEE COURT: I:'s probably not taxable, but,

under Wisconsin law, it's a factor in determining how

much maintenance to award if maintenance is ac:ually

ordered.

to be reported.

year and you are asking for maintenance, the amount of

maintenance, if it's awarded, the Court has to consider

other sources of :ncome, one of which is Social

Security payments, whether for retirement purposes or

disability purposes.

MR. ERBS: I will check on that.

TEE COURT: So you need to d isclose that to

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correct?

know what his benefit is going to be.

THE COURT: Typically, pension plans are ar.

THE COURT: What do you mean by blanks?

MR. ERBS: She has things that would cover

my signature to a contract with blank spaces.

THE COURT: Well, then you should put down ,.n

the blank "not applicable" or something like that,

I a m not going to pu~

I'm sorry. One of the items thatMS. VEITH:

It would be a defined benefit plan and I need tohere.

we have asked Mr. Erbs ~o sign are authorizations

including an authorization allowing me access to his

pension information and his ret~rement account

information. cf Mr. Erbs refuses to sign the

authorization, I can't confirm what his petition rights

are through the unlon, which is, obviously, relevant

MR. ERBS: Yeah. The w hole thing is

worthless. That's fine with me. I will run through

with a magic marker.

THE COURT: You need to disclose what you

have or don't have. Speak in the microphone, please.

anything. She wants discovery.

without any blanks in it. She has to fill it out. I

am not going to fill out anything with blanks ~n it.

Nothing.

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MR. ERBS: No.

MR. ERBS: Yeah.

MS. VEITH: No, Your Honor.

in all the divorces I've been involved in. Any

If the pension has been

If you have a pension plan, you

I have been waiting since

TEE COURT:

MR. ERBS:

THE COURT: Okay. .~ything else?

THE COURT: Well, you both have ten days to

MR. ERBS: Where she has a blank space is I

records showing the value of tr.e plan or the amount of

THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Erbs?

need to give her authorizacion to get the pension

distributions, so you can't simply say "not applicable"

am just going to put "not applicable" then?

February 1 for the sa~e thing.

comply, starting today. Anything else?

:here. Do you understand that?

sign any such authorizations. That's typical proced~re

obtain that information and I am going to order you to

questions on that, Mr. Erbs?

consideration in awards of maintenance, so you need to

send an authorization giving Ms. Veith the abi:ity to

asset for property divlsio~.

disclose that or, more important~y, you are required to

distributed, then it's cor.sidered as income for

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hearing.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?

MS. VEITH: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. That will conclude the

(Conclusion of record at 10:2S a.m.)

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r\,..I

1 STATE OF WISCONSIN

2

3 COUNTY OF CHIPPEWA

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ss. CERTIFICATE

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I, Eric W. Olson, Official Court Reporter ln

and for the County of Chippewa, State of Wisconsin, do

hereby certify that I reported the above matter on July

8, 2010, and that the foregoing transcript, co~sisting

of 42 pages, has been carefully compared by me with my

stenographic notes as taken by me and by me thereafter

transcribed, and that it is a true and correct

transcript of the proceedings had in said matter to the

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best of my knowledge. .

Dated this ~ day o~

Eric W. Olson, RPR

Official Court Reporter

, 2010.

erbs july 8 transcript

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