episode 258: beating sibo, ibs, and histamine intolerance ... · there when i just had this whole...

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Episode258:BeatingSIBO,IBS,andHistamine

IntoleranceWithAGutsyGirlSarahKayHoffman


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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Katie:Hello,andwelcometo"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com,andI'mheretodaywithsomeoneIwassoexcitedtomeetrecently.SarahKayHoffmanisthefounderofAGutsyGirlwhichisawebsiteI'vebeenfollowingforalongtime.It'sanonlinecommunitygearedtowardswomenwhoarelookingforareasonableapproachforhealingthingslikeIBS,IBD,SIBO,hormonalproblems,acne,andmore.Sheisagutresearcherandajournalistwhospeaksouthighlydetailedinformationandthencondensesitintodigestiblewaysforwomenworldwide.Andherwritingstyleissoconversationalandfun,andIfeellikeIknowyousowellalready,eventhoughweonlymetrecently,andyou'realsothemomtothreeabsolutelyadorablechildren.Sowe'lltalkalittlebitaboutmotherhoodtodaytoo,butwelcome.Thanksforbeinghere.

SarahKay:Thankyou,Katie.IfeellikeI'monacelebritypodcasttodayandsoexcitingbecauseI'vefollowedyourworkforyearsnow,soI'mreallyexcitedtobeherewithyou.

Katie:Ohmygosh,I'mexcitedyou'rehere,andIfeelthesameway.IfollowedyouforsolongandI'malittlebitlikestar-strucktoday.AndanamelikeAGutsyGirl,Ifeellikethat'swherewehavetostart.SoI'msurelikemythyroidjourney,forinstance,it'sprobablyalongjourney,butIwouldlovetohearyourguthealthjourneyandjustyourstorybecauseIknowthishasbeenaresearchtopicforyouforawhile.


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SarahKay:Ihaveprettymuchbeenonthisjourneyforover10yearsnow,wellover10years,butIthinkmyjourneyprettymuchstartedin2008whenIwasdiagnosedwithcolitis,anditwasshortlybeforemyweddingandIknewsomethingwasoffandwecouldn'treallyfigureoutwhatsoIdecidedthatweshouldprobablyjustdothecolonoscopyandendoscopy.AndtheyfoundthatIhadcolitis.Ihadaprettymildformofitcalledproctitiswhichaffectsthelowestpartofthecolon,therectum.Andmyjourneybeganthen,butIdon'treallyconsiderittotrulyhavebegununtil2009whenIcameupontheGAPSdiet.Sofrom2008to2009,Ijusttriedeverything.Iworkedwithanutritionist,IjusttrialedanderroredeverythingthatIcouldonmyown.And,youknow,atthetime,Iwouldjustreadarticlesthatwouldtellus,youknow,whatthingswerehealthyforthegut,youknow,morevegetables,fruits,justwholegrains,probiotics,prebiotics,youknow,allthethings,andIjustcouldn'tgetbetter.

Andthenin2009,IstumbledupontheGAPSdiet,andIactuallybroughtittomynutritionistbecauseitwassomethingthatwassodifferentthananythingthatIhadeverthoughtofortried.SoI'msureyou'refamiliarwiththeGAPSdiet,right?

Katie:Yeah,absolutely.Wehaveexperiencedthatinthepastaswell.

SarahKay:Yeah.SotheGAPSdietjust...foranyonelistening,isjusttheGutAndPsychologySyndrome.It'sdevelopedbyDr.NatashaCampbell-McBrideandbasicallythefoundationofitwasalotofmeats,broths,fats,youknow,verylittlecarbohydratesoranythingthatcouldreallylikesitinthegutandfermentandIstartedit,andwithindays,Ifeltbetter,anditwasthefirsttimeinmyentirelifeIfeltlikeIcouldactuallyhealandthatdietwasplaying,youknow,intomegettingbetterorprohibitingmefromgettingbetter.SoIdidthat.Ididthatin2009andIstayedonitforquitealongtime.ItalkalotabouttheGAPSdiettodayasfarasitchangedmylife,thebookchangedmylife,everythingaboutitchangedmylifebuttheproblemwasIstayedonitforfartoolong.

AndsoIkindofwentonandoffitfrom2009untilDecemberof2014.Ijustplayedaroundwithdifferentthings.IwouldfeelwellandthenIwouldnotandthecyclejustkindofkeptgoing.Sowhathappenedin2012kindofrightinthemiddleofthere,isIwentthroughaveryviciouscycleofIVF,andforanyoneouttherethat'slisteningthat'sgonethroughthat,youknowwhatitmeans.It'salotofdifferentshotsandhormonesandreallylikemanipulatingeverythingaboutyourcycleandIthink,youknow,itallplayedintomydeepalreadyrootedhormonalissuesandthenalsomygutissues.

Andsoattheendof2012,whenthatfailed,thatIVFcycle,myhusbandandItookatriptoSedonaanditwastherewhenIjusthadthiswholerevelation,ifyouwill.LikeIjustwantedeverythingaboutmylifetochange.Iwantedtogetwell.Ididn'twanttodwellanymorein,youknow,infertilityornothavingchildren.Ireallyjustwantedtoturnmylifearound,makethingslikeaspositiveaspossible.AndIreallydevotedmytimeandmyenergiesinSedonaatthatmomenttoresearchingandlearningeverythingandspinningitpositive.SoitwastherethatAGutsyGirlwasbornbecauseitwouldplayintothiswholeideathatI'msittingherewithallthesegutissuesandmystomachisjustinmisery.Andnow,I'vejust,youknow,gonethroughareallylongintenseperiodofIVFandinfertility.


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AndImadeitmymissionthatwithAGutsyGirl,obviously,it'saplayongutwithgutsy,butalsojustto,youknow,buildthiscommunity,thissupportcommunityforwomenthatweregoingthroughallthethingsIwas...andwhatIlearnedthenandwhatI'velearnedsincethenisthatwomentypicallythathaveIBSorIBD,italwaysgoesalongwithsomethingelse.So,youknow,lowthyroidorinfertilityorskinissues,or...Imean,italwaysgoesalongwithalltheseotherthings,butalloftheseotherthingsareveryisolating,andyoucanfeelsoalone.SoAGutsyGirlwasborn,andthenyeah,likeyousaid,Ijustkeptresearching,keptlearning.

Decemberof2014,well,actuallyaboutayearafterthat,weendedup...thisisawholeanotherpartofmystory,too,butweendedupadoptingourfirstdaughter,andshewasamicropreemie.Andsowhenshewastwomonthsoldbythetimewegother,shewasstillonly5pounds.SoIwasup.Iwasalreadysickstill,butIwasupalmostlike24/7.IthinkImaybegotthreeorfourhoursofsleepanightformonthsandmonthsonend,just,youknow,thecycleoffeedingandsleepingandfeedingandsleepingandallofthat.SoitwasaboutNovemberof2014whenIjustabsolutelyhitrockbottom.Ihaveblogpostsonmysitethatyoucanseemyface.Myperioraldermatitiswastheworstit'severbeeninmyentirelife.Wascovered,myfacewascovered.Mystomachwasbloatedandthen,youknow,thingswouldgothroughmeandIcouldnotcatchabreak,itseemedlike.

Soatthatpoint,IstartedseeingafunctionalpractitionerinCaliforniaandthat'swherewelivedatthetime.Andhereallychangedmyentirelifebecauseinsteadofjustdoing,youknow,thetest,thecolonoscopies,theendoscopies,theregularbloodtest,hedugintoeverylastthingthathethoughtcouldbegoingon.AndwefoundoutthatIhadSIBOwhichisSmallIntestinalBacterialOvergrowth,I'msureyouknow,andthathaskindofbeenthestarttomyrealjourney,Ithink,eventhoughthecolitisdiagnosisandeverything,butIbelievethatit'sreallybeentheSIBOthat'sbeenmyunderlyingissue,thebottlenecktoallofeverything.Andso,onceIwasdiagnosedwiththat,thenatthebeginningof2015iswhenIreallybelieveIstartedtoheal.

Katie:Wow,yeah.Ihearsomuchofmyownstoryinyourstory,minewasrelatedtothyroid,butjustthatlongprocessofhavingtoverymuchlikefigureitoutonyourown.Andthankfully,therearegreatpractitionersthatwecanbringinandhaveinourcorner,butthat'ssomethingI'velearnedsomuchthroughmyownjourneyisattheendoftheday,wecan'toutsourceourhealth.Anditseemslikeyoufoundthisoutaswell,thatyoucanlearnfromsomanydifferentsources,buttruly,theendisfiguringoutthatpersonalizedinformationandapplyingittoyourself.AndIthinkthat'ssomethingthatyoudosowellonyourwebsite,istogivepeoplethetoolsandempowerthemtogodownthatroadandfigureouttheirownstepsandtheirownthings.

AndonethingelsethatIlovedinwhatyoujustsaidwasaboutstartingAGutsyGirlforthecommunitysidebecauseIthinkthatisoneofthemostoverlookedaspectsofhealth,andItalkaboutitallthetimenowbecauseIthinkit'ssoimportant.It'ssomethingthat'smissingsomuchinourmodernworld,istruecommunity,andIlovethatyouwereworkingandareworkingtobuildthiscommunityforwomenwhoareallinthisjourneytogether.Ithinkthat'ssobeautiful.AndyoumentionedSIBO.Sosomelistenersmayknow,wehadajourneywiththisaswellinourhouse.Myhusband,in2012,hisappendixruptured,andthesecondaryinfectionfromthat,whichrequiredlotsandlotsofantibioticsandIthinkhehadaflesh-eatingbacteria.Itwasaprettyseverething,butitledtohimgettingSIBO.AndsothisissomethingIalsohadtokindoffigureouthowtotackleaswell.


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SoI'dloveifwecouldtalkaboutit,becauseIsuspecttherearealotofpeoplesufferingwithsomeversionofSIBO,evenifit'saverymildcase,thatmaynotevenknowbecauseforhim,itwasacoupleofyearsbeforewefinallyputthepiecestogetherandgotadiagnosis.AndthetestingtheydoforSIBOisnotlikecommontestingyouwouldgetinaregularlabpanel.Soalotofpeoplemayhaveitanditkindofflyundertheradar.SowalkusthroughmaybehowyoufoundoutyouhadSIBOandthenhowyoustartedtotacklethat?

SarahKay:Yeah,somyprediction,I'vebeensayingthisforquitesometimenowisthat,youknow,whenIwasdiagnosedwithitin2014,Iwaslike,"What'sSIBO?"Andnowit'sbecomingevenmorecommon,butmypredictionisthatwithinthenextfewyears,it'sgoingtobeaverycommonthingthatevenWesterndoctorsaregoingtobedoingtestingforandpeoplearegoingtobediagnosedwithitleftandrightbecauseIthinkitissocommonandit'ssuchanunder...well,see,thethingisit'ssuchanunderlyingthing,likeyousaid,whenyourhusband'sappendixruptured,thatcamealongwithit,andit'sanunderlyingthing,butusually,there'salsoanunderlyingthingwithSIBO.Soit'sjustlikethismazeandthismessbutSIBOgoeshandinhandwithsomanyotherconditionsthatIjustseeit'sgonnacompletelyincreaseinthediagnosiswithit.

SoIwasdiagnosedwithitin2014,andIwouldhaveneverknownhadInotgonetothatdoctorwhokindofspecializedandhespecializedin...he'sactuallyChrisKresser'sdoctorattheCaliforniaInstituteforFunctionalMedicine.AndhestudiedalotaboutSIBOandLymedisease,whichthosegohandinhandalotaswell.SoIthinkhewasalready,youknow,kindoflookingforthat,andmaybeIjustgotluckythatIhappenedtoseehimbutmysymptomswerevery,veryclassicSIBOsymptoms.Icouldeatonethingandbesobloated.Sotoputintoperspective,attheheightofthewholeinfertilityjourney,IrememberIwasintheairport,andawomancameuptomeandsaid,"Oh,whenareyoudue?"AndIjuststartedcrying,butIwaslike,"I'mnot,IhaveSIBO.Thankyou.AndI'minfertile."

Butyeah,sobloating.It'sjustthislikehorribleawful...IalwayssaiditfeltliketheGremlinsarelikepushingagainstyourstomachandtryingtogetout.Thatwasoneofmybigsymptoms.Myotheronewastheacne.SoIgotperioraldermatitissobadly,itcoveredalmostmyentireface,allaroundmynose,mychin,reallyscalyrash.AndthentheotherveryclassicsymptomIhadwasIwasalways...likeIcouldeatafour-coursemealandwithin10,15minutes,Iwasstarvingagain.Icouldnevereatenough,anditwasn'tthatIgainedalotofweightoralotofpeoplewilllosealotofweightwithSIBO.IjustkindofmaintainedbecauseIwasvery,verydeficientinalotofnutrients.BythetimeIwasdiagnosed,IwassoseverelydeficientinB12thathestartedmeoninjectionstomystomachimmediately.

Ihadalotofjointpain.Youknow,wealwaysthoughtthatitwasfromglutenwhichitmayhavebeen,butIhadalotofjointpain.Iwasvery,verytired.Imean,Iwouldsaythat'sprobablyoneofthesymptomsthatlookingbackforyearsnow,verytired.Andthentheotherclassicsymptom,Ithink,whichpeopledon'tliketotalkabout,butit'strueisIcouldbeinaroomandbarelyanygaswouldcomeoutofmebuttheentireroomwouldjustsmellsobadbecausewhathappenswithSIBOisthere'sjustsomuchbacteriathatstaysinyoursmallintestine.Thesmallintestineissupposedtohavebacteriabutyou'renotsupposedtohavethatmuch.Likefoodfermentsthereandit'salmostlikeitfeelslikeit'srotting.That'skindofwhatyourinsidesfeellike.AndsoI,becauseIhadsomanyclassicsymptoms,andIcouldcommunicatethistohim,hetestedmeforitwiththebreathtestrightaway,andsureenough,that'swhatIhad.


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SothatwaskindofmyjourneywithitandhowIknew,buthavingsaidthat,SIBOis...andI'mnotsurewhatyourhusband'sexperiencehasbeenlikewithit,butSIBOisoneofthosethingsthatissohardtogetridof.Mostpeople,youdon'tjustdoacourseof,youknow,theherbalantibioticortheantibiotic,orboth,andyou'rebetterandit'sdone.Imean,mostpeople,itkeepsgoingandgoingandgoinguntil,whichiswhatIfiguredout,youreallystarttoaddresswhateverisunderlying.

Katie:Yeah,wehadtheexactsameexperienceandsomeofthoseclassicsymptomsaswell,especiallythebloating.Andtobehonest,Ifeelbad,butforafewmonths,Ikindoflikedownplayeditordidn'treally...Iwaslike,"Well,stopeatingsomuchatameal.Idon'tknowwhyyou'rebloated."Or,"TakesomeHClorwhatever."AndIdidn'treallyunderstandjusthowuncomfortablethatreallycanbe.Andthenoncewegotthediagnosis,itwassuchalongprocess,you'reright,becauselikealotofstuff,youcanfigureoutremedieswereprettyeasily.Andthis,Ifeltlikewewerejustdoingbattlewiththisthingthateverytimewewouldcutoffitshead,itwouldcomebackbigger.Anditwasoneofthemorefrustratingthingswe'veeverhadtodealwith.AndI'mcuriouswhatthethingswerethathelpedyou.Andagain,thisisallIknow,verypersonalized.SoIdon'tthinkeitherofourcasesisgoingtobeprescriptive,butIthinkyoucanlearnfromsomeofthecommonalitiesthathelppeople.

Soforhim,heactuallydida21-dayelementaldietwith...hewaslikeessentiallyfastingwithlikeveryspecificprotocols.Andthenwedidthislikealong,verycarefuldietafterthatwiththeherbalantibioticsandalotofsupplements,butI'mcurious,whatkindoffinallystuckandwhatworksforyou.

SarahKay:Okay,sointhebeginning,IwasveryadamantthatIdidnotwanttotakeanyantibioticsbecauseIkepttellingmyself,"Well,thiswaspartoftheproblemwhyIgothereinthefirstplace.Igrewuponantibiotics.Iwaschronicallyillmyentirejunioryearofcollegethatendedupinatonsillectomy."SoIwasreallyadamant.Somydoctor,hecompletelyagreedandwetriedtheherbalantibioticroute.Imean,everythingfromNeem,Berberine,Allimax.Imean,combinations.Hegavemedifferent...IthinkitwascalledGISynergyanditwasjustkindoflikeabunchofdifferentherbsandonepillandIwould,youknow,whatever.Ididallofthethings,andItriedthatreligiouslyfor,Idon'tknow,afewmonths,andIwasn'tgettinganybetter.Infact,Iwasgettingworse.Andsohesaid,"Ithinkyou'regoingtoneedtheantibiotic."Youknow,inhindsight,whatIlearnedabouttheSIBOantibioticsisthattheystaylocalizedtothesmallintestine,anditdoesn'treallydisruptyourentiregut.

IsayI'mthequeenofjustification.IfI'mgoingtojustifyit,it'sgoingtobethat,butIknewregardless,atthatpoint,Ijustwantedtofeelbetter.SowhenIwasfirstdiagnosedwithit,Iwasjustdiagnosedwiththehydrogenversion.SoI'mnotsurewhatyourhusbandwas,butthere'shydrogenandthere'smethanedominant.Sointhebeginning,itwasjusthydrogen.SotheantibioticthatItookrightawaywasRifaximin,andmydoctor,Iamsothankful,healwayswasabletogetme21daysto28days.WhatI'velearnedandwhatI'veheardfromotherpeople'sexperiencesiswhenthey'veonlyhadthetwo-weekcourse,theyrelapsewithindaysofbeingdonewithit.Anditmakessensetometoo,becauseIneverfeltwelluntilaboutday21.Ialmostwouldgiveuponeventheantibioticsandallofasudden,itwaslikesomemagichappenedonday21,Ifeelsomuchbetter.


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SoIdidtheantibiotic,andIstayedfeelingwellafterthatforquitesometime.WhatIdidfromadietarystandpointatthattimewasIdidduringtheantibiotic,IwouldalwaysbeeatingFODMAPs,andIdidn'treally...Iwasn'treallyconcernedtoomuchabout,youknow,whatIwaseating.Butthenafterwards,sothatallofthebacteriacouldcomeouttoplay,that'sthetheoryandthenyou"cantargetitwithantibiotic."Andthenaftertheantibiotic,Iwouldfollowlikeaprettystrictdiet,likealowerFODMAPdietmixedwithsomeGAPSorsomeSCD.Youknow,Ijustkindofknewwhatmybody...whatworkedandwhatdidn'twork.

Andtheproblemwiththat,there'sno...Ithinkthat'sagreatprotocol.Ithinkanyprotocolthatyoudowiththiselementaldiet,whichbythewayI'veneverdone,I'vealwaysbeenveryinterestedinit,butI'mtooafraidtonoteatanythingfor21daysorlonger.Ithinkwhateverprotocolyou'regoingtodocanworkandisfine,butIkeptrelapsing.SoIthinkthatsince2014,Irelapsedeitherthreeorfourtimes.AndeachtimeIrelapsed,Ieitherhadhydrogen,methanedominantorboth.Sowheneverthemethanecameintoit,thenIwasnotonlyonRifaximinfor28days,butthenyoualsohavetoaddanotherantibioticcalledNeomycin,andIthinkthat'salwayslikefor14days,butIwoulddothat.Andagain,IwouldfeelbetterforquitesometimeandthenIwouldrelapseuntilitwasaboutthislastyear,lastMarchwasthelasttime,soaboutayearago,thatIeverrelapsed.

Ididtheantibioticsagain,Ididthefoodthingagain,butwhatchangedwasthatwereallystartedtofocusonwhywasIrelapsingsomuch?AndIbelievethatuntilyoudothat,itwillnevergoaway.Andforme,Ihadbarelyanystomachacid.SoyouhadmentionedtheHCl.SoaddinginanddoingtheHClappropriatelywascriticalandtothisdayiscriticalforme.SoIamveryreligioustotheHCl,tomydigestiveenzymes.ThosearethetwobiggestthingseverysingledaythatImakesureIkeepupwithwithmystomach,butbeyondthesupplementsandthemedication,thebiggestthingwasthelifestyle.WhatIfoundwaseverysingletimeIrelapsed,itwasalwaysduringhighstressperiods.AndIhadtoreallylikedigdeepandtrytofigureoutwhatwascausingallofthisstressandanxiety,andittookfarmorethandietandsupplements.Ittooktherapies,ittookjournaling.

Likeitsoundssowoo-woo,butIhavebeenfeelingthebestIhaveinmyentirelifeforoverayearnow.AndsoIthinkwhenyou'retalkingabouthealingSIBO,it'sjustsoimportanttoknowlikereallywhat'sgoingonunderneathsothatyoucan...Iviewfoodnowandsupplementsandtherapiesandanythingelseyouwanttodoastools.They'rejusttoolstokeepyouwell.

Katie:Yeah,absolutely.AndIthinkyoumadeacoupleofreallyimportantpointsinyourresponsejustnow.OnebeingthattheantibioticsusedwithSIBOareveryunique.Likeforinstance,mykidshaveneverhadantibiotics,it'sbecausethey'veneverneededit.ButIabsolutelythinkthere'satimeandaplaceforcertainantibiotics.Imean,certainly,Ithinkwecanagreethatthey'reperhapsoverusedinsomescenarios,butthisislikeoneofthosescenariosthatifyouneedthem,youneedthem,period.AndsoIlovethatyousharedyourstoryonthatandbroughtthatupbecauseIthinkespeciallyinthisnaturalhealthworld,there'satendencytolike,"Oh,antibioticsarealwaysbad,"andthey'redefinitelynotalwaysbad.SoIlovethatyousharedthatpartofyourstory,andalsothatyoumentionedHCl.Thiswassokeyforhimaswell,andhealsotothisdaytakesHCl.Ithinkthisisactuallyanotherareawherewe'regoingtoseelikegrowingawarenessaboutthis.Ithinkalotofpeoplehavethat.Evenifit'slikeaverysubclinical,liketheywouldn'tnecessarilynoticeuntiltheystartedtakingtheHClandthentheynoticedhowmuchbettertheyfeel.


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SoI'mcuriousforyou,likehowdidyoufindoutthatthatwasakeyandthenjustcurious,likewhatyourdailyregimenlookslikewiththatbecause,likeIsaid,it'sbeenlife-changingforhimtoo.

SarahKay:Yeah.Soasweage,younaturallydecreasetheamountofstomachacidyouhave.Sothat'skindoflikeoneproblemwiththewholestomachacidthing.Theotherpartisthattraditionaldoctors,they'llseelikeaproblemlikeGERDoranykindoflikestomachacidissuesas,oh,youhavetoomuch,solet'sreduceitwhenthatmightnotactuallybethecase.Sothenyouarereducingwhatwasalreadytoolowofstomachacidintoevenlowerstomachacid.AndthethingisthatIwroteablogpostaboutthepHofthestomach.Thestomachneedstobeveryacidic,that'swhathelpsbreakdownthefood.TheproblemwithSIBOisyourfooddoesn'tbreakdowninthesmallintestine.Soifyoudon'thavetheadequatestomachacidinordertobreakthatdown,itjustsitsthereanditfermentsandthat'swhenalltheproblemsarise.

Soforme,withthestomachacid,I'mvery,veryopenaboutthistothisday.It'ssomethingthatIwasnotveryopenaboutforalongtime,but,youknow,earlierinmydays,youknow,highschool,Iprobablystartedinhighschool,college,evenupthroughmywedding,whenIwasdiagnosedwithcolitisin2008,Ialwaysfollowedverystrictdiets.Iwasalwaysonsomekindofdiet.Ican'teventellyouallofthecrazydietsI'vedoneinmyentirelifeandit'swhyI'mreally,reallyaproponentofthisideathatguthealingisnotadietbecauseIthinktoomanywomenaretryingtomakeitintothis,youknow,restrictivediet,butIhavebeenonthosedietsandthat'swhatgotmesosickinthefirstplace.

Somydoctor,that'skindofhowwestumbledupontheideathatIprobablyhad,youknow,ruinedalotof...depletedalotofmystomachacid.Andsothewaythatwetesteditisjustthatit's...itwasjustanat-hometestwiththeHClpills.Sothere'satutorialonmywebsiteandhowyoudoit,butImean,itwasverysimple.Itwaswithalotofprotein,meaning,youknow,halfcupormore,IwouldtakeoneHClpill,Ifeltnothing.ThenIwouldtake...thenexttimeItriedit,Iwouldtaketwowithprotein.Feltnothing.UntilIgotallthewayuptolike,Ithinkatonepoint,like13HClpills,andIstillwasn'tfeelinganything.Butatthatpoint,whathappensisitbecomesverycounterproductivetogoupmorebecausethenyou'redrinkingsomuchwaterwhileyou'reeatingyourmealsinordertotakethesepills,andweshouldneverbedrinkingthatmuchwaterwhilewe'reeating.Thatalsolikeisnotgoodfordigestion.

Somydoctor,whatwedecidedtodoisIthink...andalso,Iwasnevergoingtobetaking10ormorepillsinonesitting,evenifit'sHCl.SoIthinkwhatwedidwaswejustkindofnormalizedit.IthinkhehadmetakinginthebeginningfiveorsixHCluntilthedayIfeltalittleburningsensation.Thatmeansthatthenyou'reproducingenoughstomachacidandyoudon'tneedthatmanyanymore.SoIdidthatforaverylongtime.Imean,Istayedatfiveorsix,Idon'tevenknow,probablyforacoupleyears.Andthentoday,I'mdowntoliketwo,oneortwo.Icouldprobablydowithout,butI'mjustsoovercautious,Idon'tfeelanythingattwo.Andsoyeah,that'sjustkindoftheprocessthatwewentthrough.

Andagain,Ihaveatutorialhowtodoit,butIdiditholdinghandswithmyfunctionalpractitionerbecauseIneededsomanyofthem.Ifeellikeifyoureallyhavethatlowstomachacid,youhavetobereallycarefulandyoushouldworkwithyourdoctorandwhat'stherightplacetostartandjuststayconsistentwiththatamountuntilyou'rereadytoreduce.


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Katie:That'sgreatadvice,andIwillmakesurewelinktoyourpostaboutthatsothatpeoplecanreadforthemselvesandIechoyourencouragementtoalwaysfindapractitioneryoucanhaveinyourcornerbecauseit'sgreattohavesomeonethathasbeenthereandyoucanaskadvice,too.AndyoumentionedFODMAPsafewminutesago.SoI'dloveforyoutowalkusthroughwhatthoseareandhowtheycomeintoplay.

SarahKay:Yeah,Iactuallyjustreleasedane-bookallaboutthelowFODMAPdiet,notreallyaboutthelowFODMAPdiet,butabouthowifyouhaveSIBOandyou'refollowingalowFODMAPdiettobeabletoeatmorethingsandstillheal.SoFODMAPstandsforFermentableOligosaccharides,Disaccharides,Monosaccharides,andPolyols.Sothey'rejustthingsthatarefoundinourfoodandthethingwithFODMAPsisthat...I'llneverforget.IwenttoseeanauntinSouthernCaliforniaonceandIgotthere,wasshortlyaftermySIBOdiagnosis.Andshetoldmethatshewasmakingsomemealfordinner,ithadapplesandonionsandgarlicinit.AndIsaid,"Don'tworryaboutme.I'mjustgoingtogodownthestreettograbsomethingandI'llmakemyownfood."AndIremembershemadethecommenttome,"What?Nowyoucaneathealthythingslikeapples,onions,andgarlic?"

Andthat'sthethingabouttheFODMAPsisthattheyarehealthythingsand"healthythings"that,youknow,wethinknormalpeopleshouldbeabletoeatallthetimeandinabundancebecausethey'resogoodforus.Buttheproblemisthattheycontainsome,youknow,FODMAPinsomeway,shapeorformanditdoesn'tfermentrightforpeoplethathaveSIBO.So,yeah,they'rejustclassificationsoffoodprettymuch.Andtheyareacollectionofshortchaincarbohydratesthatarenotabsorbedproperlyinthegut.Andwhenthey'renotabsorbedproperlyinthegut,theycantriggersymptomsinpeoplewithIBS.

Katie:Gotit.AndIknowsomethingelsethatcomesintoplaysometimeswiththeseparticularconditionsisthingsrelatedtohistamineintolerance.SoI'mcuriousifyouhavepersonalexperiencewiththatandwhatyou'velearnedaboutthat,ifso,duringyourjourney.

SarahKay:Yeah.SoIactuallydon'thaveanythingwithhistamineintolerance.NotthatIknowof.Imean,obviously,onceyoustartgoingdownonerabbithole,Icouldfindmyselfgoingdownsomanyotherones,I'vejustchosennotto.Thatsaid,IhavewrittenabouthistamineintolerancebeforebecausesomanypeoplewithSIBOdohaveahistamineintoleranceandcan'tdoalotofthingorcan'teatalotofthings.AndIknowlikealotofthehistamineintolerance,I'mnotsurewhatyoursymptomsarelike,butit'salotoflikehives,redeyes,nasalcongestion,headaches,runnynose,thingslikethat.I'veneverhadanythinglikethat.

So,Iknowthatit'sverycommonwithpeoplethathaveSIBOwhichalsothenlimitstheirdietevenmore,unfortunately.Andalso,IknowthatyouandIareonthesamepagewiththis,butthat'sonethingIloveabouttheThriveprobiotic,isthattherearenohistaminesinitandthereareinalotofprobiotics.SothewaythatItellpeoplereallytoapproachSIBOmixedwithalowhistaminedietisto...Ialwayssay,whateveryou'rereallytryingtoaddressmost,dothatfirstandthenaddtoit.So,forme,likewithSIBOandcolitis,orSIBO...no,I'lltakeSIBOandthelowthyroid.MymaingoaltherewastohealtheSIBObecausethen,youknow,it'satrickleeffect,everythingelsestartshealingaswell.


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SohealingtheSIBOformemeanttofollow,youknow,lowFODMAP,this,that,andtheother,butifIalsowantedto,youknow,thencompounditwiththethyroid,thenIwouldtrytoaddfoodsinthatwouldalsoworkwithlowFODMAPtohelpthethyroid.SothesamethinggoesforwhenpeopleaskmeaboutalowhistaminedietwithalowFODMAPdiet.SoifSIBOisthemostimportantthingtoyou,startthere,andthenyoutake,youknow,there'slowhistaminedietwithlike,youknow,eggs.EggsarealowFODMAP,sogreat.Keepitthere.That'showIthinkitworksbestwhenyouhaveacombinationofalotofthingsgoingon.

Katie:Yeah,that'sgreatadvice.Andyeah,definitely,we'reonthesamepagewiththeprobiotics.Andthatbringsupanothergoodpoint,becauseprobioticscanbeareallyconfusingtopicifyouhaveanykindofgutissue,Ifeellike,andIknowontheGAPSdiet,whenwedidthat,therewereveryspecificprobioticrecommendationsandtheprobioticInowuse,alsoJustThrive,itwasnotevenavailablebackthen.Andsothere'ssomanydifferentoptionsnow,butdoyouhaveanylikegeneralguidelinesforthat?BecausefromwhatI'veread,andfromourexperiencewithmyhusband'sSIBO,someprobioticscanactuallymakethingsworseifyouarejustkindofthrowingprobioticsatit.

SarahKay:Yep.Iwritealotaboutthisonmyblog,butoneofmyfavoritepostsIeverwroteaboutthiswas,"ShouldItakeaprobioticwithSIBO?"ThatisbeforeImetJustThrive.Butevenstill,IdostilltakethisverysameapproachbecauseitissuchasubjectivetopicinthehealingSIBOworld.AndIthinkwhatitreallycomesdowntoiswhatstageareyouinandwhatkindofprobioticareyoutaking?So,youknow,Idon'trememberexactlywhichprobioticitwas,itdoesn'treallymatter,butIwastakingitwhenIwastryingto...likealongwithmyantibioticsandalsothisstuffandIcouldn'tfigureoutwhyIkeptbeingsobloated.Somydoctorsaid,"Justtrycuttingtheprobioticforawhileandseewhathappens."Andsureenough,Istartedfeelingmuchbetter.Sowhateverwasinthatprobioticwasnotworkinginthatstage,thatparticularstageofhealing.

Soalotoftimes,onceIwouldfeelbetterandmysymptomswerekindofhadreallydiminished,IwouldstarttakingtheprobioticagainsothatIcouldrepopulateanythingthatIneededtocontinuerepopulating,youknow?Ithinkthat,yeah,it'sjustsuchatrickytopic.IhavebeentakingJustThriveforacouplemonthsnow.Andit'sbeenincredibleforme,andIknowotherpeoplethathaveactiveSIBOaretakingitandtheysaythatit'sworkingforthemaswell.

Ithinkwhenitcomesdowntoprobiotics,youreallyhavetolookatthestrainsandthespecies.Inadditiontomy...Ireallyfeellikealotofsupplementsaresomuchsnakeoilatthispointbecausethere'sjust...themarketisjustfloodedwiththemandyoureallyhaveto...Ihaveanewblogposttooaboutguthealingwithminimalsupplements,youknow,andthere'sjustlikeafewthatItakenowbecausethemoresupplementswetake,thelessweknowreallywhat'sworkingandwhat'snot.Andthenthelesswe'reabletoreallyinvestigateandtoknowwhatisinthatcapsule,youknow,whatarewetaking,whatarewhattheirtests?Howdotheytestit?Wherearethesourcingtheiringredients?Youknow,likethere'ssomanydifferentthings.Likeaprobioticisnotjustaprobiotic.IwasthinkingaboutthatoldActiviacommercialwheretheytalkedabout,youknow,howthatyogurtissogreatforyou,hasgottheseprobiotics.I'mlike,"Butlookattheingredients,"andIjustfeellikethatwithallprobioticsandthenespeciallyifyouhaveSIBOandchoosingtherightprobiotic.

Katie:Yeah,Iagreecompletely.Andthat'swhatIlovedaboutthesespecificallyasthembeingsporebased,they'resomuchlessreactive.Likeyousaid,theydon'thavethehistaminesordairy,oralotofthethingsthat


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ifyouhaveanykindofspecialcondition,youmaybeavoiding.AndsoI'veheardthesamethingformyreaders,justit'shelpedsomanypeople.Anditsoundsalotlikeyou,myhusbandtakesHClandthoseprobioticsdaily,andtheneverythingelsekindofasinrotation,orasneeded,butthosearehistwononnegotiables.

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Katie:Aswe'vebeentalking,likeIsaid,Ihearsomuchofmystory.Minewasthyroidrelated,butjustthatjourneyofhavingtofigureoutwhatwaswrongandthenthatslowjourneyofhealing.Andsomethingthat'salwaystopofmindformeishowcanIdoasmuchaspossibletogivemykidsafoundationsothattheyneverhavetodealwithproblemslikethis?AndIknowasamom,that'sprobablysomethingthatyou'vethoughtthroughalotaswellandyouwritealotaboutyourfamilyand,youknow,raisingahealthyfamily.

SoI'dlovetokindofswitchgearsalittlebitandtransitionintothehead,andI'mjustcuriousifthereareanythingsyoudowithyourkidsspecifically,justtogivethemareallygoodhealthy,solidfoundationinlife.

SarahKay:Well,firstofall,IhavetosaythatIwroteitdownimmediatelythatyourchildren,allofyourchildren,haveneverhadantibiotics.Thatisincredible.Thatisjustsofascinatingtome.AndIneedtohaveofflineconversationwithyouaboutthat.Mychildrenhavehadantibiotics,butagain,Ijusthavetotakeout,


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youknow,anythingthatIfeelaboutthat.Soallthreeofmychildrenareadopted,andallthree,we'veadoptedallthreeofthemfromthefostercaresystem,andtheycametousallasbabies,prettymuchasbabies,buttheywereallprematurelybornandwerebornintotheworldunderlessthanidealcircumstances.Andsopeoplesaythatit'sjust...itwasperfect.YouknowitwassomeanttobethatIgotthechildrenthatIdidbecauseIactuallyhaveatabonmywebsitecalledGutsyChildrenbecauseallthreeofmychildrenhavesomesortofgutoranotherissuethatisplayingintotheirgutissue.Solikemyoldesthassevereeczemaandmymiddlechildwasjustdiagnosedwithintestinalparasites,andhealsohaslowstomachacid,it'scrazy,andenzymes.Andthenthebaby,well,she'snotababyanymore,she'salmostthreebutshedefinitelyhasalotofstomachissuesandwe'rejusttreatingherasifshehadintestinalparasitesbecausemymiddlechildisherbiologicalbrother.Andtheyhavevery,verysimilarlikeeverything,liketheygetreallybloatedandtheyjust...sowe'retreatingthemthesame.

ButwhatIdoforthemisIapproachtheirdietandtheirlifestyleassanelyaspossible,butwithoutnormalizingit,ifthatmakessense.So,youknow,Ifeellikeit'ssonormalforkidstowakeupandeatsugarycerealsand,youknow,liveoffofthatstuffalldayandmychildrendon'tandIthinkthat'sokay.Wehavetreats.Ofcoursewedolikeanyotherfamilywhenthey'reout,youknow,inpublicandatschool,whatever,it'sokay.Wehavetobevery,very,verycarefulwithglutenanddairy.Noneofthemaresupposedtohaveglutenanddairy,sowe'reprettystrictonthatnow.Infact,mymiddlechild,theonethathastheparasites,hegotintoglutenonSundayandhadrashesalloverhisface.Soit'sjustanother,youknow,confirmationfromyou,whywelivelikethis.

Ireallylikemakethingsfun.Forexample,insteadoflikenormalKetchupwiththeirstuff,IgettheSirKensington'sKetchupandwealwayscallitMommySpecial,whatever.SoMommySpecialketchuporwedococonutamino,soit'sMommySpecialsauceandtheythinkthat'sfun.Ijustmakethingsfunforthemandlikeit'sreally,reallythingstastenormaltothem,everythingdoes.Peoplejustcan'tbelievethat,youknow,theywanttoeatvegetablesandtheywanttoeat,youknow,potatoesandfruit,andthat'sjustbecausechildrendoastheysee,youknow,theywanttobelikeus,theywanttomirrorthethingsthatwe'redoingandthat'sjusthowwelive.Youknow,I'mnottryingtobethis,youknow,outstandingmotheroftheyearwithhowIfeedthemandthethingsthatwedo,I'mjusttryingtosetthemupforahealthylifebecauseIknowinmyresearchandinmyownlifethattakingcareofthegutandtakingcareofyourself,ithasincredibleimpactsonyourlifebecausesomuchoftheimmunesystemliesinyourgut.IfIdon'ttakecareofitforthemandhelpthemandteachthemwhyit'simportant,youknow,Idon'tknowwhatcouldlieaheadforthem.

SoIthinkthat'swhyI'msopassionateaboutit.Theytakeenzymesbeforetheyeat.WedotheJustThriveprobiotic,Iopenthecapsuleandputitintheirfood.Theytakemaybelikehalfofoneobviouslyinsteadofafullone.Andthentheytaketheirfishoilandbeyondthat,Imean,I'mpretty...it'sprettynormal.

Katie:Yeah.That'sawesomethatyouaretheirmombecauseitsoundslikethatisaperfectmatch,andthankgoodnessthattheyhaveyou.AndIthinkthat'salsosoimportantthatyoumentioned,youknow,tryingtokeepthatmindsetsanebecausewealsodefinitelydon'twanttoraiseourkidswithkindofanykindofissuessurroundingfoodorlikeanykindoflikelongcomplexthat'sgoingtolastintoadulthood.Soitsoundslikeyou'retakinganamazingapproach.AndIalsolovethatyoubroughtupeczemabecausethat'ssomethingthatinourtimewiththeGAPSdiet,ofcourse,youlearnthatskinhealthissotiedtoguthealth.AndIhearfromalotofmoms,Ithinkeczemaisalsoontherise,butalotofmomswhosechildrenarestrugglingthroughthat,


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andthatwassomethingIhadtolearntoo,isitdoesn'tmatternecessarilywhatyouputontopoftheskin.Ifeczemaishappening,there'ssomethinginsidethebodythat'salsogoingon,soyouhavetoaddressbothofthose.Soaretherethingsthatyou'vefoundespeciallyhelpfulontheeczemasidebecauseIknowalotofparentsareinthatrightnow?

SarahKay:Yeah.That'sthethingwith...youknow,Iloveskincare,Beautycounterismyjam,whatever.ButIthinktoomanypeoplearetryingtosaylikeforadultsandforkidsandforeveryonethat,youknow,allthesetopicalthings,it'sgoingtojustturnyourlifearound,yourskin'sgoingtobegreatinthreedays.Andthat'sjustnotthecase.MyperioraldermatitiswasnevergoingtogoawaynomatterwhatkindofproductIused,itallcamebacktomygut.WhenmySIBOwashealed,itjust"magicallywentaway."Andthesamethinghappenedwithmydaughterthathaseczema.Shegotitsobadly,itwasnottoolongagoanditjuststartedpoppinguponherhands.Andthenwewouldfindlikelittlebumps.Everythingstartedaslikelittlebumpsalmostthatjustexpandedintolikelargerashythingsonherhandsandherbackandalloverherface.Infact,oneSundaymorning,itwasonmybirthday,shesaidherheartwaskindofbeatingfastandbecauseshehadtheserashesallover,Igotsoworried.Itookherintotheemergencyroomrightawayandshehadhadthiseczemagoingonforquitesometime.Andso,ofcourse,theirsolutionwasatopicalsteroid.SoIwasnotinfavorofthatbutatthatpoint,shehadgottensobad,soweuseditjustforacoupledaysnotforverylongbutatthatpoint,immediately,Icut...shehadbeenbasicallylivingondairy,shelovesdairy.Imean,whatkiddoesn't?

SoIdidallthethingsfromadietarystandpointbecauseIknewfrommyownexperienceofperioraldermatitisthatthetopicalstuffisjust...thatwouldn'tmatterifwehelpeverythingelse.SotocutthedairyandIcutthegluten,andshestarteddrinkingmorebonebroths.Iwouldhaveherdoenzymesbeforesheate,fishyoils,whichshecallsit,that'salsolikeprettysoothing.Andthenitjustreallystartedtogoawayonitsown.Imean,Idon'tthink...sothatwasinFebruary.Idon'tthinkshe'shadanydairyorglutensincethen.Idon'twanttokeepthatoutofherdietforever.Andsowe'retryingtogetherbloodteststoseelikereallywhatshe'sintolerantto.She'scurrentlyintheprocessofdoingastoolsampletootoseeifthere'ssomethinggoingon.Butthefunctionaldoctorthatwe'reworkingwiththinksthatit'sprobablysomefoodthat'sreallycausingeczema.

Sotheotherthingthattheyalotoftimeswilltellyoutogiveupwouldbelikeeggs,andnuts.Forme,IhaveahardtimegivingupallthethingsforchildrenjustbecauseIdonotwanttosetthemupfor,youknow,alifetimeoffearwithfoodoranythinglikethat.SoIchoseto...shedoesn'tdomanyeggstobeginwith.Sothat'swhyIdidn'ttakeitout,butIjustchosedairyandglutenforrightnowandithelped.Imean,she'sperfectnowagain.Herskiniscompletelyclear.Weput,youknow,justlikegentallotiononit,keepithydrated.Itellher,Ihavetomakesureshe'sdrinkingmorewater.Wereducealittlebitmoreofliketheunnecessarysugars.Wegotanotefromthedoctorssothatbothsheandherbrothercan...webringourownsnackstopreschool,whichhashelpedalotbecause,youknow,there'snodairyorgluteninit.Andyeah,Ithinkthat'sthebiggestthing.

Katie:That'sawesome.Yeah,Ithinkitsoundslikeyou'redoinganamazingjob,andIthinkthat'sgoingtobesohelpfultosomanyparentswhoarelistening.AndIalsocan'tbelievehowquicklyourtimehasflownbybecauseIcouldtalktoyoualldaylong.ButacoupleofquestionsI'dlovetoaskattheend.Thefirstbeing,ifthereisabookoracoupleofbooksthathavereallychangedyourlifeandifso,whattheyareandwhy.


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SarahKay:Okay.SoI'vementioneditalreadybefore,butIhave...Imean,therecouldbesomanyfunbooksthatIshareandalotoflikelife-changingbooks,buthonestly,Iwasthinkingaboutthisandthebookthathastrulychangedmylifewas"TheGAPSDiet,"orthe"GutAndPsychologySyndrome"bookbyDr.Natasha.AndwhileIdon'tbelieveinitforanylong-termsolution,Ibelieveinthefoundationofwhatshe'ssaying.Youknow,thegutandpsychologysyndrome,it'snotjustgutstuffbutalltheotherthingsthatgoalongwithit:autism,dyslexia,depression,schizophrenia,ADD,allthesethings,andwedon'trealizehowmuchthegutandthebrainworktogether.AndIhavereadthisbook,Ican'teventellyouhowmanytimes,Ihavelittlebookmarkseverywhereinit.It'sjustareallygreatbookthattrulychangedmylifebecausehaditnotbeenforthatbookandmelearningtheartofmakingmyownbonebrothin2009,IwouldneverprobablybewhereIamtoday.SoI'mverygratefulforthatbook.

AndthentheotherbookthatIjusthonestlythinkthatchangesmylifeallthetimeIreaditistheBible.It'sabookthatnotalotofpeoplewouldsay,butitdoes.Youknow,likeIsaid,onthisjourney,Ihavehadsomanyupsanddowns,likesomanyawfulthings,somanygreatthings,buttheonethingthat'sjuststayconsistentismereadingtheBible.AndIknowthat'ssuchatopicthatpeopledon'ttalkaboutthesedays,butIhavetosayitbecauseittrulyis.Sothosetwobooks.

Katie:Awesome.Andlastly,anyclosingadvicethatyouwouldgivetoparents,tosomeonesufferingwithgutissues,orjustingeneral?

SarahKay:Well,IthinkthebestpieceofadviceIgivetoeverybodyistotestandnotguess.SoIfeellikewehaveaccesstosomuchinformationthesedaysontheinternet,youknow,withjustlike,openupabrowserandyoucandiagnoseyourselfwithadvancedstagefourcancertoday.Buttherealityisthatyouhavegottojustgotothedoctorandgettested,andDr.Googleisnotanappropriatetestforyou.Ihaveablogpostonmysite,it'sabeginner'sguidetodigestivehealthtesting,anditreallytakespeoplethroughtheprocessbecauseIthinkthatthere'sdifferentstepstotesting.Youknow,youdecidethatyou'regoingtogettestedversusself-diagnosing.Andthenyoudecide,areyougoingtogotheWesterndoctororfunctionalandintegrativedoctor.

Andthen,youknow,there'sstepsthatyoushouldandcantaketoprepareforyourfirstappointment,andyoucanuseDr.Googleforthat.Youknow,likeseedifferentsymptomsthatmakesense,differentthingsthatyouwanttobringupwithyourdoctor,differentteststhatyourdoctormightnot,youknow,automaticallytestyouforbutyoufeellikeyouwant...you'reincharge,andsoyougettogotothemandyougettotellthem,"IwouldliketobetestedforX,Y,Z.Here'smysymptoms.Thisiswhat'sgoingon.ThisiswhatIthink.Ifyouhaveadditional,youknow,thoughtstoaddtoit,great,let'sworktogether."Butthat'smybiggestpieceofadvice,istojustknowwhat'swrongbeforeself-diagnosinganddoingallthedietsandallthesupplementsandmedicationsandit'sjustyour...peoplealwaysaskme,"Howlongwillittaketohealmygut?"AndItellthem,"Assoonasyouhaveanaccuratediagnosis,andthenyougetonthepathtohealingtherootcauseofthatdiagnosis."That'showlongit'sgoingtotakeyou.

Katie:Ilovethatandsuchaperfectplacetoend.IknowthatyouareabusymomandbusinesswomanandI'msoappreciativethatyoutookthetimetobeheretoday.Thisepisodewasamazing.Ithinkit'sgoingtohelpalotofpeople.AndIappreciateyousomuch.


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SarahKay:Thankssomuch,Katie.

Katie:Andthankyoutoallofyouforlisteningandforsharingyourmostvaluableassetofyourtimewithus.We'resogratefulforyouandIhopethatyouwilljoinmeagainonthenextepisodeof"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

episode 258: beating sibo, ibs, and histamine intolerance ... · there when i just had this whole...

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