democracy now

8/13/2019 Democracy Now

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AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Repor.

"m Amy Goodman, as we #rn o par wo o$ o#r disc#ssion wih %raig &e'en Wi(der, a#hor o$

a new )oo*. "s ca((ed +)ony 'y: Race, &(a'ery, and he Tro#)(ed -isory o$ America"s

ni'ersiies. "s an aso#nding )oo*.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Than* yo#.

AMY GOODMAN: Ta(* a)o# where yo# )egan i. mean, yo#"re a pro$essor o$ American

hisory, Pro$essor Wi(der, a MT righ now.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: 1# yo# a#gh a Wi((iams, yo# a#gh a Darmo#h.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Mm2hmm.

AMY GOODMAN: Ta(* a)o# Darmo#h.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Darmo#h, ac#a((y, i was one o$ he more ineresing cases.

sared he )oo* when go o Darmo#h in 3443. And as said, yo# *now, i was s#pposed o )e

a iny (i(e aric(e on how )(ac* a)o(iioniss )ecame pro$essiona(s. -ow do yo# )ecome a

miniser, a docor, a eacher, in a naion where yo# can" go o co((ege5 And so, he A$rican

Americans who oppose s(a'ery ac#a((y ha'e his )ig p#sh ino he pro$essions, )# hey ac#a((y

are e6c(#ded $rom co((eges and #ni'ersiies. And so, one o$ he hings ha inrig#ed me, and

paric#(ar(y )eca#se was a Darmo#h a he ime, was he $ac ha Nai'e Americans had )een

on camp#s, $or 344 years )y hen. Nai'e American s#dens had )een on camp#s $or 344 years.

And ha s#ggess, in $ac, when yo# say i ha way, ha Nai'e Americans were somehow

pri'i(eged, which we *now is wrong. And so i rea((y re7#ires a rehin*ing o$ he co((ege ise($,

he ro(e o$ he co((ege in he co(onia( wor(d.

And in many ways, hin* Darmo#h was a per$ec e6amp(e o$ wha ended #p arg#ing in he

)oo*, ha we ha'e o hin* o$ co((eges as animae, as acors in he co(onia( wor(d and in he

creaion o$ he naion ha we *now. +(ea8ar Whee(oc*, he Re'erend +(ea8ar Whee(oc*, who

arri'es in -ano'er9a$er he ges his charer in ;


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AMY GOODMAN: Wha happened a -ar'ard5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: We((, he sending o$$ appea(s o +ng(and c(aiming o and

championing he e'ange(i8aion o$ Nai'e Americans. n


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%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: And hey o$en ha'e s(a'es, and hey"re9hey"'e o$en )een ndian

missionaries. &o Whee(oc* has spen m#ch o$ his22

AMY GOODMAN: The $irs presiden o$ Darmo#h.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: The $irs presiden o$ Darmo#h has spen m#ch o$ his (i$e as an

ndian missionary. 1# he"s a(so r#n a side )#siness )#ying and se((ing peop(e $or (a)or, so ha

ens(a'ed )(ac* peop(e ha'e )een par o$ his (i$e"s wor* $rom his ear(ies years.

AMY GOODMAN: -ow did yo# $ee( a)o# his, %raig &e'en Wi(der, a Darmo#h yo#rse($

eaching, doing his research5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: "s an9i"s aw*ward. Yo# *now, hin*9yo# *now, when yo#

hin* a)o# he way ha Ms. 1rowne was a(*ing a)o# Traces o$ he Trade, his s(ow,

#ncom$ora)(e rea(i8aion ha yo#"re par o$ his wor(d wih his 'ery )road, deep, pain$#(

hisory is, o say he 'ery (eas, aw*ward. was9i a(so )ecame an ine((ec#a( cha((enge $or

me: -ow do e(( ha sory5 And how do ge ha sory o an a#dience and ge hem o

#ndersand is meaning, wha i means $or #s oday and wha i mean $or #s hen5 And so,

hin*, in some ways, as a hisorian i"s pro)a)(y easier o dea( wih ha rea(i8aion, )eca#se we

ha'e he oo(s $or hen wres(ing wih i.

AMY GOODMAN: Did hey e'er ry o ge yo# o sop e((ing his sory5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: No, no. Ac#a((y hey didn". And ha'e o gi'e e'eryone a (o o$

credi. Yo# *now, one o$ he grea hings ha happened is, yo# *now, ear(y in my career a

Darmo#h ga'e a a(* on a par o$ he )oo* ha9wha"s now a sma(( par o$ he )oo*, yo#

*now, and he presiden o$ Darmo#h a he ime, @im Wrigh, was siing in he $ron row o$ ha

a(* and ga'e me a grea handsha*e and a h#g a$erwards.

And, yo# *now, o$en e(( he sory o$ going ino archi'es o do he research $or his )oo*, $rom

he %aro(inas and /irginia o easern %anada and &co(and. And when $irs sared, was

somewha ca#io#s a)o# wha wo#(d say, yo# *now, when hey as* yo# on hose $orms, >Wha

are yo# s#dying5> And so, wo#(d say 'ag#e hings (i*e ?h cen#ry ed#caion or co(onia(

schoo(s. And as he archi'iss and (i)rarians sor o$9as go o *now hem and hey $o#nd o#


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more a)o# wha was doing, one o$ he rea((y wonder$#( hings ha happened is no on(y were

hey 7#ie s#ppori'e o$ he proBec, )# hey o$en in $ac inrod#ced me o and )ro#gh me

maeria( ha wo#(d ne'er ha'e *nown was in he archi'es. &omeimes hey sor o$ s(ipped i o

me across he a)(e as i$ hey were doing somehing wrong, )# hey22

AMY GOODMAN: Wha were22

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: 9were a(ways s#ppori'e. They were a(ways warm.

AMY GOODMAN: Wha were some o$ yo#r grea disco'eries here5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: hin*, yo# *now, he presidens who owned s(a'es, wha

happened o hose ens(a'ed peop(e d#ring heir (i'es. Yo# *now, a Wi((iam Mary, one o$ he

ear(y $o#nders ac#a((y ends #p *i((ing a chi(d.

AMY GOODMAN: +6p(ain ha sory.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: -e orders22

AMY GOODMAN: Who was i5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: "s Re'erend Grey, and he orders a chi(d o )e )eaen. And he

chi(d is )eaen so se'ere(y ha he (aer dies. The9his parish ac#a((y )asica((y pays him in

o)acco o (ea'e. And ha was one o$ he sor o$ rea((y 7#ie di$$ic#( momens in wriing he

)oo*, )eca#se here"s a way o e(( ha sory, )# i"s a di$$ic#( sory o e((. And here"s

somehing o )e *nown a)o# he na#re o$ co((eges in here, he na#re o$ he co(onia( wor(d in

here.

AMY GOODMAN: Wha do yo# mean here"s a way o e(( ha sory5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: We((, hin* here"s a way o e(( ha, meaning ha, yo# *now, he

9par o$ my Bo) as a hisorian is o ma*e ha sory a'ai(a)(e o peop(e, o e6p(ain i, and o (e

hem #ndersand how ha momen comes ino )eing. And i"s one o$ many in which chi(dren

ac#a((y p(ay a ro(e in he )oo*, )eca#se one o$ he paerns ha had noiced as was doing his


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And e6p(ore one o$ hose 'oyages in he )oo*, in which do8ens o$ chi(dren, some as yo#ng as

wo and hree years o(d, are )eing he(d capi'e on )oard and die d#ring he Bo#rney. And ha"s a

0i'ingson in'esmen, he 0i'ingsons who go on o )ecome he $#nders o$ he $irs

pro$essorship, endowed pro$essorship, a Ya(e, $o#nders o$ %o(#m)ia and r#sees a Princeon

and a R#gers.

AMY GOODMAN: R#gers, yo# ha'en" a(*ed m#ch a)o#.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: Te(( #s a (i(e a)o# R#gers.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yo# *now, he9i"s a $ascinaing insi#ion $or a (o o$ reasons.

And he origina( E#een"s %o((ege, which is a D#ch Re$ormed co((ege, he D#ch co(oniss are

esa)(ishing heir own insi#ion, and i"s, as we a(( *now, rea((y 7#ie c(ose o he %o((ege o$

New @ersey, Princeon, and Princeon is origina((y $o#nded in he easern par o$ he sae o'er )y

Newar* and hen dri$s o'er, and he go'ernor, Go'ernor 1e(cher, ac#a((y he(ps i e'en#a((y

se(e in Princeon, New @ersey. And9)#, in $ac, ac#a((y, one o$ he hings ha happened is

here"s a (o o$ press#re $rom he %o((ege o$ New @ersey, $rom Princeon, $or he E#een"s

%o((ege, R#gers, o ac#a((y $o(d in. 1#, in $ac, he denominaiona( a((egiances are oo srong

$or ha, so he Pres)yerians remain a New @ersey, Princeon, and he D#ch Re$ormed a

R#gers.

One o$ heir ear(ies presidens, F@aco) -arden)ergh, he Re'erend -arden)ergh a E#een"s

%o((ege, manages o p#rchase s(a'es despie he $ac ha he co((ege is doing 7#ie poor(y. Yo#

*now, E#een"s is so $inancia((y srapped ha i c(oses m#(ip(e imes in is ear(y hisory, and $or

(ong periods. 1# on he e'e o$ one o$ is $irs c(os#res, when i B#s has o sh# down and sop

operaions, Re'erend -arden)ergh manages o )#y a second s(a'e $or his ho#seho(d. And wha

does ha e(( #s a)o# co((eges in he ?h cen#ry5 One o$ he hings ha i sho#(d remind #s is

ha co((eges s#r'i'ed on he margins in he ?h cen#ry. Yo# *now, hey were consan(y

see*ing so#rces o$ $#nding. And he mos o)'io#s and immediae so#rces o$ $#nding were he

rising wea(hy raders o$ he )ig por ciies, dominaed )y he s(a'e raders, and hen he p(aners

o$ he &o#h and he Wes ndies who had )oh cash and chi(dren )# 'ery $ew schoo(s. As one

hisorian o$ he 1riish Wes ndies p#s i 'ery nice(y, he 1riish Wes ndies ac#a((y didn"


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AMY GOODMAN: Yo# mean he co#nry in A$rica, 0i)eria22

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Righ, 0i)eria.

AMY GOODMAN: 9where22

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Where $ree )(ac* peop(e are o )e ranspored o. And hey"re a(so

o'errepresened in he de)aes a)o# ndian remo'a( in he &o#h. And hey"re o'errepresened,

poin o# in he )oo*, in de)aes a)o# and he process o$ esa)(ishing missions o con'er @ews

(i'ing in he nied &aes or $#nd heir remo'a( $rom he nied &aes. And when yo# p# i a((

ogeher, wha yo# end #p wih is his e6raordinary 'ision o$ he nied &aes as a whie

%hrisian sociey, racia((y c(eansed and racia((y p#ri$ied. 1# wha ha ac#a((y means is race

)ecomes he common gro#nd )eween Norh and &o#h. Academics, and Norhern academics in

paric#(ar, )egin o aric#(ae a 'ision $or he $##re o$ he nied &aes as a racia((y p#ri$ied

sociey, where s(a'ery co#(d conin#e o e6is as (ong as i was conained and as (ong as i ser'ed

he ineres o$ he whie &o#h. 1# he goa( o$ he naion, he $##re o$ he naion, he 'ision o$

he naion, wo#(d )e a whie %hrisian sociey.

AMY GOODMAN: Pro$essor Wi(der, yo# menion a*ing $ree )(ac* peop(e and mo'ing hem

e(sewhere, eiher o A$rica or here in his co#nry. There is a $i(m ha has B#s opened ca((ed 3

Years a &(a'e a)o# a $ree )(ac* man in9in New Yor* who is *idnapped and sen so#h, where

he remains a s(a'e $or 3 years. B#s waned o p(ay a rai(er o$ ha $i(m.

&O0OMON NORT-P: Fp(ayed )y %hiwee( +Bio$or was )orn a $ree man, (i'ed wih my

$ami(y in New Yor*22

1e good $or yo#r moher.

9#ni( he day was decei'ed22

ND+NT+D: To &o(omon.

&O0OMON NORT-P: 9*idnapped, so(d ino s(a'ery.


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HWe((, )oy, how yo# $ee( now5

&O0OMON NORT-P: My name is &o(omon Norh#p. "m a $ree man. And yo# ha'e no righ

whasoe'er o deain me.

R++MAN: Fp(ayed )y Pa#( Giamai Yo#"re no $ree man. Yo#"re nohing )# a Georgia

r#naway.

+DWN +PP&: Fp(ayed )y Michae( ass)ender And ha ser'an ha don" o)ey his (ord sha(( )e

)eaen wih many sri*es. Tha"s scrip#re.

1A&&: Fp(ayed )y 1rad Pi The condiion o$ yo#r (a)orers, i"s a(( wrong.

+DWN +PP&: They"re my propery.

1A&&: Yo# say ha wih pride.

+DWN +PP&: say i as $ac.

&pea*! Man does how he p(eases wih his propery.

Yo# come here.

&O0OMON NORT-P: Mr. +pps, 22

+DWN +PP&: said come here!

&O0OMON NORT-P: Days ago, was wih my $ami(y, in my home. Now yo# e(( me a(( is

(os.

%0+M+N&: Fp(ayed )y %hris %ha(* $ yo# wan o s#r'i'e, do and say as (i(e as possi)(e.

&O0OMON NORT-P: We((, don" wan o s#r'i'e. wan o (i'e.


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AMY GOODMAN: And he s#dens5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: And he s#dens )ring s(a'es o camp#s. Yo# *now, George

Washingon"s son, @ac*y %#sis, his sepson, Washingon ni6es he idea o$ sending him o

Wi((iam Mary )eca#se22

AMY GOODMAN: Washingon himse($ didn" go o co((ege.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah, righ, he didn" go o co((ege. And Genera( Washingon

doesn" wan o send @ac*y o Wi((iam Mary )eca#se @ac*y a(ready has )ad ha)is, and he

hin*s his ha)is wi(( ge worse among he sons o$ he e(ie p(aners in /irginia. And so, he )rings

him #p o New Yor* and enro((s him a ing"s %o((ege, wha"s now %o(#m)ia. And %o(#m)ia is

g(ad o ha'e him, in par )eca#se his creaes anoher enrance o he wea(hy p(aners o$ he

&o#h and a new way o$ ma*ing new ies wih a new gro#p o$ s#dens and poenia( donors and

enro((mens. 1# wha"s $ascinaing is ha, yo# *now, Washingon shows #p in New Yor* wih

his sepson and his sepson"s s(a'e @oe. @oe ac#a((y a(so comes o camp#s. And he presiden o$

%o(#m)ia a he ime, My(es %ooper, o#$is @ac*y wih a s#ie o$ rooms ha hen he has9ha

@ac*y has pained and readied $or himse($, and @oe is )asica((y occ#pying wha"s )asica((y a (arge

c(ose in one o$ he rooms.

Tha"s no #n#s#a(. Yo# *now, a Wi((iam Mary, pro)a)(y a)o# 4 percen o$ he s#dens in

he ;


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on camp#s, (ong )e$ore i )rea*s o#. There is a9here are deep di'isions in he Norh a)o# he

re(aionship )eween he $##re o$ he Norhern saes and in re(aion o s(a'ery. Those are

di'isions ha ac#a((y (ead o an e6raordinary rans$ormaion in he nied &aes. n he &o#h

a he ni'ersiy o$ Norh %aro(ina and a many &o#hern schoo(s in he ear(y par o$ he =h

cen#ry, s(a'ery was open(y de)aed, in he $raerniy ho#ses and9yo# *now, a Norh %aro(ina,

an ani2s(a'ery spea*er is in'ied o gi'e he grad#aion speech, and he r#sees hen p#)(ish i

and *eep i in circ#(aion $or years. Wha happens a$er he22

AMY GOODMAN: And ye, he ni'ersiy o$ Norh %aro(ina9a(* a)o# is hisory.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Righ. And, yo# *now, i"s $o#nded )y s(a'e owners and p(aners.

s (arges (and donaions are ac#a((y coming $rom p(aners. The, yo# *now22

AMY GOODMAN: Meaning5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: 9ens(a'ed peop(e are ac#a((y )eing #sed o )#i(d he co((ege.

There"s a sor o$ $anasic Masonic ceremony a he9a heir sone (aying, he $irs sone (aying

a he schoo(.

AMY GOODMAN: And when yo# say >p(aners,> yo# mean p(anaion owners, s(a'e owners.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah, p(anaion owners and s(a'e owners, righ. And hey9yo#

*now, and once he $anasic Masonic ceremony is o'er, a(( he rega(ia and parapherna(ia is gone,

and he s(a'es are )ro#gh in o )#i( he schoo(9o )#i(d he schoo(, m#ch (i*e a he ni'ersiy

o$ /irginia, where ens(a'ed peop(e were raising he )#i(dings o$ Thomas @e$$erson"s grea

ine((ec#a( mon#men.

And so, par o$ wha waned o (oo* a was ha rans$ormaion, wha happened in hese schoo(s

o ma*e s(a'ery a 7#esion ha co#(dn" )e de)aed on &o#hern camp#ses, and o ma*e i

increasing(y di$$ic#( o de)ae on Norhern camp#ses. Yo# *now, poin o# in he )oo* ha in

?JI a Amhers in Massach#ses, yo# *now, a he commencemen ceremonies, a s#den $rom

Tennessee a*es a c(#) and )egins )(#dgeoning a s#den $rom New -ampshire o'er he 7#esion

o$ s(a'ery. Yo# *now, his is no a di'ision ha"s p#re(y Norh2&o#h. &o#herners were a maBor

presence on Norhern camp#ses, and hey had )een $or, yo# *now, wo cen#ries )y ha ime.


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%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: nsead, he money ha was )eing raised is9i conin#es o ge

raised. And he whie and )(ac* a)o(iioniss re#rn o he Naiona( Negro %on'enions, hese

con'enions ha )egin9)(ac* a)o(iionis con'enions ha )egin geing he(d in he ear(y ?J4s.

They re#rn and as* $or permission o (oo* $or a new sie $or a schoo(.

They hen ac#a((y $a(( #pon, in par )eca#se i"s happened in Garrison, Pr#dence %randa(("s

schoo( in %aner)#ry, %onnecic#, a yo#ng whie woman who had #rned oward a)o(iionism

)y reading Garrison"s 0i)eraor and who had admied a )(ac* gir( o her schoo( and hen go

hreaened )y he ownspeop(e ha i$ she didn" remo'e her, hey wo#(d r#in her schoo( and hen

r#in her $ami(y"s )#siness. The a)o(iioniss )egin o hrow heir s#ppor )ehind %randa((. And as

he9i$ yo# remem)er he sory, wha happens o %randa(( is she"s ac#a((y p# on ria(.

%onnecic# passes a (egis(ai'e ac o ma*e i i((ega( o ed#cae )(ac* peop(e $rom o#side he

sae. &he"s ried hree imes. &he"s con'iced once. Tha con'icion is hen o'er#rned. 1#

d#ring ha process, whi(e ha"s happening, he ownspeop(e hen )rea*9a mo) )rea*s ino her

ho#se, desroys he ho#se and he schoo(.

A$er ha, he a)o(iioniss shi$ heir aenion o Noyes Academy, a new schoo( #p in New

-ampshire, in %anaan, New -ampshire, which is righ ne6 o -ano'er, where Darmo#h is.

And in ?JC, he end o$ ?JC, ha schoo( opens, and i"s open o s#dens o$ a(( races and )oh

genders. A)o# eigh monhs (aer, a mo) o$ J44 peop(e )ringing do8ens and do8ens o$ o6 and

horses, chains and rope, dress he )#i(ding in chains and rope, and drag i o$$ o$ is $o#ndaions,

drag i a ha($ mi(e hro#gh own and desroy he )#i(ding, and hen $ire g#ns and cannon a he

ho#ses where whie a)o(iioniss had ac#a((y )een )oarding )(ac* s#dens. n he co'er o$ nigh,

he )(ac* s#dens are a*en o# )y $riend(y ownspeop(e and he a)o(iioniss. And he

e6perimen a esa)(ishing, insi#iona(i8ing a)o(iionism )y esa)(ishing an insi#ion $or he

higher ed#caion o$ )(ac* peop(e comes o )asica((y a 'io(en end a ha momen. A$er ha, he

on(y p(ace yo# rea((y see he con'ersaion )eing a*en serio#s(y is in he conin#ed meeings o$

he Naiona( Negro %on'enions.

AMY GOODMAN: Where do he hisorica((y )(ac* co((eges $i ino his5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: They )egin o appear in he ?I4s. And he9(i*e many co((eges in

he, yo# *now, co(onia(, ear(y naiona(, pre2%i'i( War America, he disincion )eween a high

schoo( and a co((ege is o$en hard o $ind in his period. And so, he9and so, here$ore, one o$


17/23

he hings ha a)o(iioniss, )(ac* and whie, had p(ayed wih was a *ind o$ ad'anced high

schoo( ha co#(d ma#re ino a co((ege. And ha was in $ac he pah ha a (o o$ co((eges oo*.

+'en ones ha we *now oday as e(ie insi#ions ac#a((y )egan m#ch more (i*e high schoo(s

han (i*e co((eges.

And so, wihin he Naiona( Negro %on'enions, yo# ha'e his sor o$ conin#ed p#sh $or ha

*ind o$ higher ed#caion. 1# he 'io(ence o$ he ear(y ?J4s (arge(y desroys he campaign. 1y

he ?I4s, A$rican2American ch#rches and whie missionary socieies )egin o re2esa)(ish

insi#ions $or higher ed#caion, and hose ma#re ino he $irs )(ac* co((eges ha we *now

oday.

AMY GOODMAN: And O)er(in %o((ege5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: O)er(in ac#a((y is par o$ his radica( hr#s. And, yo# *now, i"s

he radica( %onnecic# residens, he %onnecic#9he o(d %onnecic# residens who22

AMY GOODMAN: 0i*e Tappan5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah9who mo'e wes. Tappan )ecomes, in $ac, a maBor donor

and sponsor o$ he new insi#ion. They esa)(ish in $ac a9wha"s )asica((y a secondary schoo(

ha has a n#m)er o$ )(ac* s#dens in i, in he decades )e$ore he war. And, yo# *now, 1eriah

Green"s academy in9Oneida Academy in New Yor*, simi(ar(y a radica( insi#ion ha ac#a((y

has )(ac* s#dens in i. Gerri &mih, he a)o(iionis, r#ns a ad'anced high schoo(, 'ery sma((,

on his propery in9 hin* ha"s Whies)oro or Peer)oro, New Yor*, #psae New Yor*.

And so, here are hese aemps, )# wha yo# )asica((y ha'e9and mos o$ hese aemps are

ac#a((y prey shor2(i'ed, and hey end o )e eiher o# wes9Ohio a ha ime9or in $air(y

r#ra( pars o$ New Yor* in he sor o$ origina( 1i)(e 1e(, yo# *now, he )#rned2o'er disric ha

re(igio#s hisorians a(* a)o# where e'ange(ica(ism has swep hro#gh across generaions. And

par o$ he reason $or ha is ac#a((y he ear(y ?J4s 'io(ence ma*es i 'ery c(ear ha an

insi#ion $or he ad'ancemen o$ co(ored peop(e, o$ he ed#caion o$ co(ored peop(e, in )ig

ciies (i*e New Yor* (i*e(y won" s#r'i'e, )# i a(so won" s#r'i'e in sma(( owns (i*e %anaan,

New -ampshire. And i was precise(y he a)i(iy o$ he ani2a)o(iioniss o reach %anaan and


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ha co#(d )e dep(oyed. And co((eges ge dep(oyed in he Americas, oo. And so, wha e6p(ains

he di$$erence )eween he re(aionship9he di$$erence in he re(aionship )eween A$rican

Americans and Nai'e Americans and co((eges is precise(y he ro(e o$ he co((ege.

AMY GOODMAN: Pro$essor Wi(der, yo# dedicae he )oo* o G(oria Wi(der.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: s ha yo#r moher5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Tha"s my siser.

AMY GOODMAN: Tha"s yo#r siser.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah. The $irs )oo* wroe, my moher go. The second )oo*, my

o(des siser Terrie go. And his is my second2o(des siser, G(oria, so she ges his one. And now

"m done.

AMY GOODMAN: %an yo# a(* a)o#22

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: ha'e no more si)(ings, and so "m22

AMY GOODMAN: %an yo# a(* a)o# yo#r own $ami(y5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: re.

AMY GOODMAN: Yo# were he $irs in yo#r $ami(y o go o co((ege5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah, my siser and were he $irs in o#r $ami(y o go o co((ege.

We"re he $irs generaion o go o co((ege. And his is why hin* when a(* a)o# he )oo* and

he moi'aions )ehind he )oo*, he idea ha "m9yo# *now, wan o ma*e i c(ear o peop(e,

"m no aac*ing co((eges. 1# hin* we ha'e an o)(igaion, as academics and as insi#ions o$

higher ed#caion, o )e as hones a)o# o#r own hisory as we are a)o# he hisory o$ he naion,

he hisory o$ ch#rches, he hisory o$ peop(e, immigraion and processes. We ha'e as m#ch


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o)(igaion o )e hones and re'ea(ing a)o# o#rse('es. Many o$ he insi#ions in he )oo*

eiher wen o as a s#den or wor*ed a. (o'e hose insi#ions. Yo# *now, %o(#m)ia here in

New Yor* ga'e me a chance o go $rom )eing a9yo# *now, he son, one o$ hree chi(dren o$ a

sing(e moher raising #s )y herse($, mo'ing herse($ $rom $ood samps and p#)(ic assisance o a

#nioni8ed ciy Bo) )y s#dying a nigh, who hen wor*ed wo Bo)s $or 34 years o gi'e #s a

chance o go o co((ege and a chance o change o#r (i'es.

AMY GOODMAN: Yo# grew #p in 1ed2&#y5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: grew #p in 1ed$ord2&#y'esan, 1roo*(yn. And, yo# *now,

%o(#m)ia ac#a((y he(ped me rea(i8e ha 'ision, her 'ision, her goa( $or #s, and wha e'en#a((y

)ecame my goa( $or myse($. And so ha'e nohing )# he greaes a$$ecion $or ha insi#ion.

Yo# *now, Wi((iams ga'e me my $irs eaching Bo), and i was an e6raordinary oppor#niy.

AMY GOODMAN: And ye, he sory o$ Wi((iams5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: And he sory o$ Wi((iams is in he )oo*. Yo# *now, +phraim

Wi((iams, he $o#nder o$ Wi((iams, a co(one(, a mi(iary co(one(, )e$ore he 1a(e o$ 0a*e

George, yo# *now, wries o# his wi((, and he (ea'es his s(a'es and9o his si)(ings, and some

money and (and $or he esa)(ishmen o$ a co((ege in wesern Massach#ses. And e'en#a((y he

own o$9he own, Wi((iamsown, renames ise($ Wi((iamsown and ma*es a c(aim #pon ha

endowmen o esa)(ish he new schoo(. -e"s *i((ed in he )a(e, so he ne'er sees he new schoo(

esa)(ished. 1#, yo# *now, and here yo# ha'e, in $ac, m#(ip(e hisories crossing, )eca#se yo#

ha'e he hisory o$ Wi((iams, he co((ege, yo# ha'e A$rican2American hisory, he hisory o$

%o(one( Wi((iams" s(a'es, his $ami(y, )# yo# a(so ha'e Nai'e American hisory9he p#sh o$

whie peop(e wesward ino Massach#ses and he ways in which Nai'e American comm#niies

were (i'ing in increasing(y consriced spaces and )eing mo'ed o$$ (and )y )oh (ega( and

e6ra(ega( mechanisms, which %o(one( Wi((iams was hea'i(y in'o('ed in. Yo# *now, here"s wi(d

spec#(aion in ha par o$ he sae. And a(( sors o$ insi#ions ge #sed o he(p ma*e hese (and

c(aims.

AMY GOODMAN: n a(( o$ yo#r research, wha were yo# mos shoc*ed )y5


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AMY GOODMAN: &o i was a)o# 344 peop(e, or a (i(e (ess, on )oard o )egin wih.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah, righ.

AMY GOODMAN: There"s (i*e ?? or somehing (e$.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Yeah, and he pop#(aion drops signi$ican(y. 1# he n#m)er o$

peop(e who are *i((ed B#s a(ong he A$rican coas is B#s aso#nding and dis#r)ing. And wan

o remem)er, as sor o$, yo# *now, ree(( ha sory in he )oo*, ha $or me ha"s pro)a)(y he

hardes and mos shoc*ing hing, )# i"s shoc*ing $or a(( o$ #s. Yo# *now, i"s9"m no ma*ing

a sor o$ proprieary c(aim #pon, yo# *now, emoiona( o#rage o ha *ind o$ hisorica( e'en.

And so, he hing ha pro)a)(y shoc*ed me mos was ha yo# ha'e hose momens where yo#

B#s, as a hisorian, ha'e o $ind a way o e(( a gr#esome sory, )eca#se ha sory is necessary o

#ndersanding in hree dimensions his momen in ime. 1# e'en more shoc*ing was how many

o$ hose sories here are. Yo# *now, yo# can $ind a 'ersion o$ ha sory $or e'ery co((ege ha"s

esa)(ished in he co(onia( wor(d. Yo#"re p(aying )asica((y wo degrees o$ separaion $rom some

horri$ic s(a'ing 'oyage.

AMY GOODMAN: n he process, ha'e yo# raced yo#r own $ami(y"s roos5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: No, ac#a((y, my niece and nephews and , his is a s#mmer e'en

ha we"re p(anning, now ha his is $inished. We"re ac#a((y going o ry and *eep o#r promise o

head so#h o Norh %aro(ina and &o#h %aro(ina, where my $aher"s $ami(y, moher"s $ami(y,

respeci'e(y, are $rom, and sar racing more o$ he $ami(y hisory. We"'e done some o$ i, )#

no a(( o$ i.

AMY GOODMAN: Are yo# re(aed o Go'ernor Wi(der o$ /irginia, he $irs A$rican2American

go'ernor o$ /irginia5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: O#r Wi(ders, my $aher"s side o$ he $ami(y, is righ across he

/irginia )order $rom his. Yo# *now, hey"re on he Norh %aro(ina side, and he"s on he so#hern

/irginia side, and so here pro)a)(y is some re(aionship. Yo# *now, we wo#(d recogni8e him,

)# he wo#(dn" recogni8e #s. And so, here"s no direc re(aionship ha *now, )# imagine


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here m#s )e. And cerain(y, when he was go'ernor9yo# *now, )oh my sisers (i'e in /irginia

9i was a grea ime o )e a Wi(der in /irginia, and so miss him.

AMY GOODMAN: And D#*e ni'ersiy, is hisory5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: D#*e"s no in he )oo*, yo# *now, and main(y )eca#se, ac#a((y,

he D#*e ha we *now is9yo# *now, a (o o$ he money ac#a((y mo'es o i in he ear(y 34h

cen#ry. And so, m#ch o$ wha creaes i as he insi#ion we *now oday happens a$er his )oo*

is done, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: -oward ni'ersiy5

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: -oward ni'ersiy is no in here, )#, yo# *now, he9he sory

ends a he %i'i( War. And -oward and he hisorica((y )(ac* co((eges ha wi(( )e esa)(ished

righ a$er he war, hin*, are a $ascinaing opic, )eca#se, yo# *now, no on(y do yo# ha'e some

o$ he $irs insi#ions ha are ed#caing A$rican Americans in (arge n#m)ers, )# yo# a(so in

$ac ha'e a signi$ican Nai'e American presence on hose camp#ses d#ring heir ear(y years.

And so, here are 'ersions o$ he ndian %o((ege, a(ho#gh hey"re a (i(e more inegraed, ha we

a(*ed a)o# ear(ier.

AMY GOODMAN: wan o han* yo# 'ery m#ch $or )eing wih #s.

%RAG &T+/+N W0D+R: Than* yo#.

AMY GOODMAN: %raig Wi(der is a#hor o$ he new )oo*, +)ony 'y: Race, &(a'ery, and

he Tro#)(ed -isory o$ America"s ni'ersiies.

democracy now

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