cr4 - thread_ high pd value on 13.pdf
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PD, descargas parciales, betwwen, insulation, tanget of delta, thread, high pd of a generator electric of 250 MW is the generator of hydropowerTRANSCRIPT
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parimalamActiveContributor
JoinDate:Feb2009Posts:16
HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/14/20099:24AM
Hi,Goodday.Thisismyfirstpostonthisforum.wehaveoneofour13.8KV,12.5MW,turbinealternatorhavinghighPDvalues,somespecilistsaysthisalternatorneedstoberewindedtoavoidfailureofwinding.presentlythisgeneratorisrunningonloadabout11MW.myquestionhereis,howexactlytheresultsarePDmeasurements,itisnecessarytodorewindingthisalternatortoavoidunexpectedfailure???isthereanywayonecanprolongthelifeofthisalternatorhavinghighPDvalue.Irequestspecilistinthisforumtorespondtothisqueryasquicklyaspossible,sothatitwillbehelpfultotakedecisiononthisissue.kparimalam@gmail.com,+6592326838
thanksandbestregardsK.Parimalam
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#5"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/15/200912:24PM(score2)
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#8"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/17/20098:35PM(score1)
CJMcGillGuru
JoinDate:Jul2008Location:SoCalUSAPosts:563GoodAnswers:24
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/15/200912:18AM
HiParimalam,welcome.
IthasbeenafewyearssinceIdealtwithlargemotorassessmentandrepair,andIamsurprisedthatyouhavenotreceivedanypostssofar,butIthinkyouwoulddowelltogetinputfromseveralsourcesthatoffertheseservicesprofessionally.
Partialdischarge(PD)whenidentifiedathighlevels,especiallywhenacontinuousmonitoringhasshowadramaticincreaseinlevels,isaverygoodindicatorofseriousdegradationintheinsulationorcracksinthebarsetc.Sometimeserrorsinplacingthewedgesorflawsinthemetalscanbegintoproducethesedischargepatterns,andusuallyseriousconsequencesarepending.
HereareafewquicklinksIfoundthatmayhelpyou.
discussioninformationanddefinitioninformationanda
supplierofequipmentandservicesspecifictoyourneed
Hopeyougetwhatinformationyouneedinatimelymanner.
Regards,CJ
__________________Idonot'knowitall',butiwilladmitthatIwouldliketo.CJM
myn1996Commentator
JoinDate:Jan2009Location:PhilippinesPosts:60
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/15/20092:27AM
Parimalam,
AhighPDreadingdoesnotmeanthatthegeneratorneedsrewindingasap.Aswithallothermethodsoftestinganddiagnostics,PDisnotonlyasciencebutratheritisalsoanart.
Forexample,EquipmentAmightshowahigherPDvaluecomparedtoEquipmentB.However,experiencedoesnotalwaysshowthatEquipmentAfailedsoonerthanEquipmentB.InfactEquipmentAlastedtoitsnormallifespanasifitsPDvalueiswithinnormalrange.
Additionally,wasthisequipmenttestedbeforewithPD?Ifitwastested,whatwheretheresults?ComparedtothepastPDresults,isthe
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GoodAnswers:4 presentPDvaluetoohigh?Istherateofincreaseacauseofalarm?
Now,thisiswheretheexperienceofthetestingengineercomesin.HistoricalPDdatawouldgreatlyhelpinanalyzingthepresentone.Awisetestingengineerwouldnotdependononlyjustonetestingmethod.Weretheretestsperformedonthisgeneratorbyyourspecialist?Whatarethesetests?Whatdidtheresultsimply?
AdditionaltestishighlyrecommendedtoconfirmthePDfindings.AnFDS(frequencydomainspectroscopy)orDFR(dielectricfrequencyresponse)ifyouwanttheotherterminology,isstronglyrecommendedforthissituation.
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parimalamActiveContributor
JoinDate:Feb2009Posts:16
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/15/20099:44AM
DearCJMcGillPoweruser,myn1996Associate,InstruformParticipant,
Ithankallofyoufortakingtimeandprovidingguideline,andIamveryhappytoheartheresponsesandnowIwillfurtherexploreasperyourrecommendationsandalsotolookforthetestsuchasFDS(frequencydomainspectroscopy)orDFR(dielectricfrequencyresponse).canyoupleaseadvicemethebestmethodforPDmeasurement,asofnowwehavemeasuredwithonlinePDmeasurementonlyonceusingtoshibaequipmentandusedinternalsinglewindingtemperatureresistorasasensingelementforthistest.AlsowefoundlotsofwhitepowderonrunningturbinegeneratorandthiswhitepowderbecauseofPDactivityisitnot??.willCO2cleaningonrunninggeneratortoremovethesewhitepowderisnecessary,supposeweuseCO2cleaningisthereanychancethatwemaydamageinsulationfurtherleadingtoPD???advicerequired.
Thanksandbestregards
K.Parimalam
CJMcGillGuru
JoinDate:Jul2008Location:SoCalUSAPosts:563GoodAnswers:24
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/15/20091:34PM
BynowyouhavereadtheexcellentinformationfromSiswanto,withgreatdetailedphotos.(GA)
Inoticedthementionofwhitepowderspecificallyinconnectionwithgreasewhenloosetiesontheleadswerefound.
MyinstinctsleadmetorecognizethatthispowderwillhelpintheidentificationoflocationsaffectedbythePD,andcleaningmayerasetheevidence.Asfarascleaning,thatwoulddependonthepowderpropertiesandwhetherthepowderitselfwillcausefurtherproblems.
Iwillleavethefurtherdiscussionaboutthepowdertomoreexperiencedindividualswithspecificknowledge
__________________Idonot'knowitall',butiwilladmitthatIwouldliketo.CJM
InstruformAssociate
JoinDate:Feb2009Posts:35
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/15/20096:53AM
Ihaveover40yearsofPDtestingexperienceandwouldsupportwhatMyn1996&CJMcGillrecommend.PDlimitvaluestandardsaresetfornewmachinesandhaveonlybeensetinthelast5yearsaftersome20yearsoftrial.Forlifeexpectancyyouneedtoascertainthechangefrompreviousresults/reportstoevaluateyoursituation.Thatiswhywhentestingforservicelifeexpectancytheinception,extinctionvoltagesandthedischargeshapeareimportantreadings&observationsandtogetsomeconsistencythesameprofessional&experiencedtestershouldbeusedonaregularbasisifpossible.UnfortunatelyPDtestingisstillbothascience&aseatofthepantsfeel.Makepreparationsbyallmeans,havecoilsavailabletolimityouroutagetime,butdon'tpanicyoucouldstillhaveyearsofservicefromthemachine.
SiswantoCommentator
JoinDate:Mar2008Location:JAKARTA.INDONESIAPosts:73GoodAnswers:15
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/15/200912:24PM
Dearparimalam:
Welcometothisforum
ourcolleagueCJMcGillandmynhasgiveagoodsharing,IwouldliketotryoffersolutionbasedonmyexperiencesduringrepairofGeneratorsinINDONESIA.
Since10yearsagoIjustfound2casesofPDFailureonGenerators,duetoitsnotdetectedandsettledatearlierstage.
HaveyoutestPDbefore?ifyes,plscomparedtheresulthowfastthePDlevelacceleration,andyouknowwhereisthePDactivitieslocation?
Attheendwinding?
intheslot?
attheoverhang?
intheinternalwindinginsulation?
IfPDactivitieshasfoundattheendwinding,slotandoverhang,itslittlebiteasytorepair,butiffoundwithinintheinsulationduetovoidsitsverydifficultandalmostimpossibletorepairexceptrewinding.
CanyoutoldmethePDlevelandlocation?whichbarsthathavehighPDlevel?
Followingarticlemaycanhelpyoutomadeadecision.Plsforgivemeifitsnotsufficientinformationforyou..
PARTIALDISCHARGEphenomenononElectricmachine
2
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Coronaactivity
Coronaisdefineastheionizationofgaswhenexposedtoanintenseelectricfield,thedischargehaveawiderangeoffrequencies[40kHzto100MHz].
PartialDischarge(PD)inthelargegeneratorapplication,isusuallyassociatedwiththehighvoltagestatorconductorbars.
Coronaactivityintherotatingmachine:
SurfacedischargeduetoCoronaatendwinding(EndwindingDischarge)
InternaldischargeduetoCoronaatinsideoftheinsulation(voidsordelamination)
SlotdischargeCoronaatgroundwallinsulationresultingfromlosscontactbetweenbarandcore.(damagedonthesemiconductivecoatingonthestatorbar)
SurfacedischargeduetoCoronaatoverhangofwindingresultingfrombarvibration
Aproblemcommontomachineswiththermoplasticinsulationisthatthenormalthermalcyclingiscausescoilmovementintheslot,tendtogeneratecrackwithinthegroundwallinsulation.
Atapeseparationisaseparationoftapecoveringthewallinsulationofthecoilduetoaxialexpansionandcontractionoftheconductorsandtheopposingforcesoftheslotappliedtothewallinsulation.
Insomecasesonlythearmortapeisseparated,inothercasesthemicatapecomprisingthegroundwallinsulationisalsoaffected,whenthisoccurafewlayermaybeaffectedandthewholetapewillmovecreating"aneck"inthecoil.
FollowingaretypicalinsulationfailureduetoPDactivitiesbasedonoursiterepairexperiencesonGeneratorsinINDONESIA.basedonourexperiencessince10yearsago,wefound2caseswindingbreakdownduetoundetectedPDactivitiesonstatorwindinggenerators,wedomuchtorepairofsemiconductivecoatingandstressgradingtominimizeandpreventthePDonthewinding
A.PDInspection,
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PDinspectiononAlstom87.5MVAafter18topbarscompletedremovedfromslot
Coronaprobemeasurements
Coronaprobetestingcanpinpointpartialdischargelocationineachslot.Itsupplementsonline/offlinepartialdischargetestsbypreciselylocatingpartialdischargetoaparticularcoiloraspot.ThecoronaprobecanalsobeusedasatestingtooltomeasurelevelsofPDactivity.Coronaprobetestingcanbeperformedeitherwiththerotorinoroutofthemachine
EndoscopicPDVisualinspectiononAlstom87.5MVA
PDVisualinspectionbyUVcameraon6.6KVMotors(figtakenfromOfil)
WindingInspection
FollowingaretypicalrootcauseofPDactivities
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StatorwedgelooseonGEgenerator49,5MVA
WhenStatorwedgehasloose,followingpartsmayaffectedloosetoduetomovement.
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FillerslipoutonMitsubishiGenerator125MVA.
Endwindingmovementduetostatorwedgesloose(notsufficienttokeepstatorcoilstayinplace)onGEGenerator237MVA
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Loosesupportduetovibration
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Typicalwindinginstallmentintheslot
Whenties,wedge,supporthasloose,statorbarswillmovementanddamaged.
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HVCoil
Preventiveaction
WhenwedgewasfoundlooseandtheaccelerationofPDactivitiesInthewindinghasincreasewithcomparedtotheprevioustestorthePDtesthasoverorclosetothemaxthreshold,followinginspectionmustbedonetomadeadecisiontorepairorreplace.
1Checkthewedgetightness'foundloosemorethan30%mustbereplaced,concerntoreplacealsoforradialsprings,improvethematerials
2Checkthecoilblocking,ties,foundloose,break,toodry,missing,mustberepaired
3Checkthewindingsupport,surgerings,boltsetc,foundloosemustberepairedorretight
4PDwasfoundhighonthewinding/
IfPDactivitiescausedbyloosecontactbetweencoilbarstoslotwalls,dorepairthesemiconductivebycoatingorsemicondpainting
IfPDactivitiescausedbylooseorstressgradingdeteriorationatendwindingportion,dorepairstressgradingbycoating
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IfPDactivitiescausedbyinternalinsulationvoid,wecan'tdonothingexceptrewinding
Followingarerepairreferenceswhenwerepaironlargegeneratorupto250MVA(basedonourexperiences).
Replaceofstatorwedgeandradialspring
TakenfromIRISEngineering
Repairblockingcoil,ties,support,etciffoundloose,defect
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Injectthesideripplebysemiconductivepainting
Suggestionsolutionforyourproblems
Followingmysuggestion
1. IdentifiedthePDsources,trytorepairofsemiconductivecoatingintheslot,beforetorepairallstatorwedges,ripple(topifany),fillersmustberemovedfirst.
2. DoretestPDbyofflinemethod,andprovidewithbartobarscanningorbyprobetoidentifiedwhichcoilsarehavehighPDlevelwithvoltageUn/1.73(linevoltagetoground)
3. Inspectallwindingregion,insideslot,endwindingetc,useendoscopic(borescope)toinspectwindingintheslot4. Dotestinsulationtangentdelta,withvoltagetestsameforoflinePDtest.5. Replaceallstatorwedges,toprippleIfprovide)andflatfillers,iftheexistingarenotprovidebytopripple,andifthespaceis
possibleenoughtoaccommodateoftopspring,providethethespring,andimprovethematerialfromclassBtoclassF,NEMAG11isrecommended
6. Retightallwindingsupportandreplacethewindingtiesiffoundloose,missing,broken,etc7. Repairtheendwindingregioniffoundstressgradingdefectorreinsulatetheendwindingiffounddelaminationontheseareaand
applieditbystressgradingpaintafterreinsulation.8. Cleanupallwindingareas,9. DryoutthestatorwindingbyusingDCsupply,keepthetemperatureround8090degreecelround24hrsormoreifmoistureis
stillpresence10. Recoatingbyvarnishpainting11. Whengeneratorrunning,ifequipmentavailable,dotestPDonline.12. Recordallthetestresultasbasedline
GoodLuck
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parimalamActiveContributor
JoinDate:Feb2009Posts:16
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/17/200910:59AM
HitoAll,
ItissimplygreatandInevergetsuchvaluableinformationanywerebutinthisforumitisamazingandIverymuchthankfultoallofyou.Iamgoingthroughalltheinformationandsuggestionandwilltaketimeformetounderstandfully.inthemeantimeIwillreplyfewanswerstothequestionspostedhere.
thisplant2x12.5MW,13.8KVsteammachines(FSO)runningcontinuouslyforthepast10yearsandnowonealreadyfailedandalsothefailuredamagedthecorelaminationsandendupwiththebigjob,rewindingandlaminationrepairsandthejobisongoingatpresent.Myquestionhereisthereyanywaywecouldhavepreventedcoredamageduetocoilgrounding???intermsoffastswitchingprotectionrelayetc..????
ThesemachinesnevercheckedforPDandnowonlyafterfailurewehavecheckedtherunningTAandfoundPDvalueisveryhigh(therewasnoearlierreadingforcomparisson).presneltywearerunningthisTAonlywith10%stationload,duetofear.Myquestionhere,runninglessloadwillhavelessPD???,eventhoughvoltageissame??curioustoknowsomesaynochangeinPDasthevoltageisthecreteriaforPDIamthinkinginotherwaybyhavinglowload,IreducethetemperatureandalsovibrationofcoilsomeextendreducedcanrunlongerperiodtocaterthestationloadtillwerepairanotherfailedTA.needadvice.
CananyonecansuggestonlindPDmetereconomicalmodelbrandforpurchaseinordertokeepitatsiteforfrequentmonitoring
restinnextpost.
SiswantoCommentator
JoinDate:Mar2008Location:JAKARTA.INDONESIAPosts:73GoodAnswers:15
Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator02/17/20098:35PM
Dearparimalam
Asyouknow,PDisassociatedwiththehighvoltagestatorconductorbars,PDwouldbestillproducedwhengeneratorisenergizeevennoload,ofcourseyes,reducedloadwouldbereducedalsotheaccelerationofPD,becauseyouhavereducedalsothevibrationandthermal.
Mysuggestion,whenyouscheduledtoshutdown,doinspectonyourwinding,
InspectthePDbyofflinemethod(probetestisrecommended,itsdesignedtocheckandidentifywhichcoilbarsarehavehighPDlevel,soyoucanrepaired,inmyopinionthehighPDlevelinyourwindingiscausedbysemiconductivedeterioration).YoucanalsocheckthePDactivitybyusingendoscopic(borescope),checkthePDviaventholes(airduct)ofwinding
ProvidealsoTangentDeltatest,isusefultoanalysisofyourwinding
Statorwedgetightens,looseonthispartswillcreatebigproblemsonyourwinding,suchas:
oDeteriorationonsemiconductivelayer,duetothestatorbarcoilswillmovemententireslot
oLooseendwindingblockingandties,itscancreateendwindingdeteriorationoninsulation,electricfieldconcentrationonendofcorecanoccurringwhenstressgradingfailure,mayalsocancreatedelaminationonscarfjoin,scarfjoinisinsulationtapejoinbetweenoverhangtoendwindingarea,thisistheweaknessinsulationjoin.
oWhenloosewedgeswasfound,itscanalsocreateinsulationvoidsacceleration,whenPDiscausedbythewindingvoids,youcan'tdoanythingtorepair,exceptrewinding
Note:torepairsemiconductivelayer,usematerialsasbellow:
Entireslot,use:"coronapainting",i.e.VonRollIsolaproducttypeP8003orequivalent.
Endwinding,use:"coronapainting",i.e.vonrollisolaproduct,typeP8001orequivalent
Cleanfirstanddryoutbeforeappliedthesematerials
oWhenyoufoundstatorwedgesloose,replaceandimprovethematerials,providewithradialspringsifthespaceispossibletoaccommodateit,forwedgematerialyoucanimprovebyNEMAG11materialorequivalent,andforradialspringimprovetoclassF
RetightorreplacetheendwindingandblockingcoiltiesbyusingbendingtapeclassF,alsoreplaceifyoufoundlooseormissingofblockingcoils,thefunctionofBlockingcoilsareusedtodeterminetheclearancebetweenthecoilsideattheendregion,toeliminate
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mechanicalstressesarisingcoilmovement,thatwillberesultingcoiltouchingeachotherattheendwinding,Blockingcoilsarealmostmadefromsolidinsulationmaterials(suchastextolite,felt,etc)whichissoakedinresin.Blockingcoilisalwaysheldinplacewithties.Oftensolidseparatortendtolooseafterlongperiodofoperation,inseverecasesitwillfallfromthewinding.
Inspectalltiesonthesurgeringsupport,ndwindingandsurgeringsaresecuredwithties,aswiththeblockingcoilsties,whenexposedoveralongtimeoperation,tiestendto"dry",becomelooseduetolosevolume,brittle,broken,etcretightorreplaceitbyusingbendingtypeandsoakedwithresin
Inspecttightensofsupportstructures,foundsludgeorgreasingorwhitepowderisindicateloose,retight.
Inspectthedustunderwindingclosetocore,extractitandcheckit,foundmetaldustonit,indicatestatorcoreloose,checkthecorelooseness,retighttheboltssupportbasedonmanufacturerspecification,foundbent,brokencoreteeth,repairitandappliedepoxy/resinorRTVonitstopreventorminimizethecorevibration.
InspectthecorebyusingDigitalELCIDmethod,foundhotspot,repairedassoon,itsmustbedonewhenyouperformrewinding,recordedtheresultasbasedline,doregularlyin5years.
Corerepairandtest,seethefollowinglink.
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/32530/HowtoRepairaPartialCoreStatorGenerator
PDInstruments.
Youcanbrowsingintheinternet,itsmanysuppliercanprovide,orourcolleaguesheremaycanhelpyoutoprovidethetechnicalspecificationandsupplierfortheinstruments.
PDinstrumentforofflinetest,PDProbemaythecheapest,anditsusefultoquickidentifiedofPDlocation,
GoodLuck.
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#5"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/15/200912:24PM(score2)
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#8"Re:HighPDvalueon13.8KV,12,5MWsteamturbinegenerator"bySiswantoon02/17/20098:35PM(score1)
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