changing the organizational culture - andrea zintz

Matisak: Tracey MatisakZintz: Dr. Andrea ZintzM/F: Male/Female Speaker

[MUSICAL INTRO]

Matisak: Hello, and welcome. I’m Tracey Matisak, your host for today’s program.

Today’s leaders are dealing with continuous and rapid change; the tone for

organization culture is usually set by leadership, and carried through the behavior

of all the organization’s members. When things change, and the organization is

pressured to change in response, how can a leader guide the organization to make

the necessary changes to its culture, so that all its members are aligned behind the

vision, goals and mission? In this seminar, Dr. Andrea Zintz a change

management expert with over 25 years experience at a global, consumer products

company, will help us learn why corporate culture is a critical factor, steps for

aligning values, attitudes and habits within an organization, and share some

lessons she learned, while leading a successful culture change. Please use your

participant guide to help you follow along with our program. And now, let’s

welcome Dr. Andrea Zintz. Great to have you with us.

Zintz: Thank you very much.

Matisak: Tell us what we’re going to be talking about.

Zintz: Well, today, we’re going to be covering some information about organization

culture, why it’s important, how it’s critical in organizations, when change occurs

to change culture, how leaders can go about doing this, some steps that I’ve

learned as a change agent to making change happen successfully.

Matisak: Okay. Take it away.

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Zintz: So, when I was a member of the management board of a small start-up company,

spun off from a very large parent company, we determined we needed to change

the corporate culture. In my role as vice president of human resources, I became

a change agent, as well as a leader. Since many of their employees, and all of our

leadership, had been with the parent company—which, by the way, had a very

dominant corporate culture, and had been very successful—there was a strong

bias toward behaving in ways that were endemic to that organization. This new

company was facing a new market, a new product for that market that represented

a breakthrough, and a paradigm shift for the customers. And we were hiring a

very diverse employee population, from different types of companies and

organizations.

We were certain that if people continued with attitudes and behaviors and

ways that were habitual in the parent culture, then we would not be setting

ourselves up for success in our new market, nor would we have the capability of

bringing in learnings from our experiences with the customers, working quickly

with the information, and turning the information and strategies into tactics that

we could act on the very next day. Also, with all the diversity we were hiring, at

the rate of 50 new people a month, we needed to create a very high-energy, very

open environment of acceptance and cooperation, so that we could be the high-

performing, entrepreneurial company we needed to be.

That culture, the parent culture, was very steeped in their success, and they

were complacent about what it took to create it. They had a very mature market,

they were the market leaders. The organization was rule-oriented, somewhat

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authoritarian, and bureaucratic, and did not support innovation. The president of

the new company realized just how critical it was to be strategic and conscious

about changing the corporate culture. We decided to embark upon a culture

change process that was executed at the same time as a product launch, hiring

new employees at a very rapid rate, working with a high financial burn rate, and

not having much time for the soft stuff.

Well, I want to share my lessons with you, leader to leader. Now, one

lesson I learned, as a member of our management board, from being part of our

change experience is that successful culture change requires leaders to listen, and

learn continuously, modeling and building the capacity for change into the fabric

of their organization. Now, today, our objectives are that you will learn why

corporate culture is a critical factor in a successful business. You’ll learn some

steps for aligning values, attitudes and habits within an organization, and some

lessons about leading culture change, learned from me, as a successful change

agent in a company that was part of a large corporation.

Now, what we’ll cover today, as I mentioned earlier, is what culture is,

and why it’s so critical; the problems that result when the culture is misaligned

with business goals; the critical role that leadership plays in that change; essential

steps then to changing culture, and some lessons from my successful culture

change experience in my organization.

So, what is corporate culture? Well, it’s simply what people say and do

while work gets done. It’s the collective reality that permeates the organization

and is expressed through behavior. Unwritten rules are at the foundation for how


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employees choose to behave. Attitudes about what is expected of the individual

in terms of work, hours, the priority of the company, and employees’ lives, home

life, work/life balance, and downsizing and outsourcing—these may not be

formulated as corporate values, but the intent is clear, and the effect is clearly

experienced.

When you walk into an organization as a new employee, or even as a

temporary worker, you can feel the organization culture at work. It’s felt in the

way people approach one another, the patterns or the way the behavior flows,

around lunch time, work hours, gathering places, as well as informal

conversations. It’s embedded in the values, the attitudes, the habits of employees,

regardless of their level. And it’s fueled by a collective mindset, a way of

thinking that is transmitted and eventually shared by all.

So, how do you lead your company in a way that maximizes the

organizational capacity to drive toward business results, when you’re in a

constantly changing environment, and you know that culture is a force that

influences the every day behaviors of employees? Well, at our company, we had

a very clear mission for our marketplace, a vision for what we wanted to create

and a strategy that would fulfill on the mission and vision, as well as goals that

were rolled out through a management by objectives approach.

We also had all the systems and structures in place; because we spun off

from our parent company, we had some policies, we already had financial

systems, we had information systems, performance management systems, as well

as a clear organization structure. We also had in place training, skill development


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in sales, sales training, technical training, leadership and management programs;

we also had a management structure to go along with it. All of these skilled

programs were chosen to be in support of the business strategy. The leadership at

our company had all been members of the parent company, and although we were

all misfits, so to speak, at our old company, our style or values and our habits

were borne of that culture.

We unconsciously behaved in much that way, and had not given thought

to how our behavior needed to coordinate to support the kind of alignment we

wanted from the organization, in support of the goals. Having said that, we were

still becoming a strong team, and we were focused on the urgent goals and

objectives of the company. What people felt safe to do and say every day,

however, was not in support of the vision. In fact, the old culture was so strong

that folks, including leadership, would say one thing that seemed in support of the

vision, but do what was comfortable.

As the vice president of human resources, I took it upon myself to create a

diversity committee of employees that represented all levels and departments in

the company, as well as races and genders. We conducted a survey of the

population to collect some perceptions about the culture, in order to get a

description of it, from the various perspectives of the demographic population in

the organization. We learned from the survey that there was a very clear

difference in perception by race and gender. Also, there was a great deal of

hesitancy to take risks to be authentic with others, for fear that it would hold back

ones career. In sharing it with the management board, the board realized that we


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had to make an intentional leadership strategy for changing the culture and

igniting authentic interactions—creativity, bold risk taking, and team work—

regardless of the differences, in order to meet our goals.

So, what makes the challenge of corporate culture so difficult? Well, it’s

its soft side; organizations use the process of developing core values as a means

for getting their arms around this softer side of managing and working in

organizations. Organizations can develop clear statements on values, to help

develop measures against those values. Value statements often get posted on

conference room walls, and in some cases, these values are formulated at the top,

and handed down. Some values are formulated and articulated through a process

of input, communication, dialogue, and debate. Other values are simply lived out

through policy or practice, in the day to day world of doing business.

Well, at our company, the board joined with the diversity committee to

become a culture development committee, and they worked on a value statement

that represented the diverse input of all its members. Well, to make things a bit

more complex, there are three levels of behavior that occurs. I may have my

personal values, attitudes and choices around behaviors, but that gets influenced

when I’m part of a group, and it’s influenced further with the systems, rules and

processes of the organization. There can be a culture within a team, influenced by

the leader or strong member, just as there is an organization-wide culture. And

this may or may not support the goals of the team or company.

Often, especially with a large and successful organization, there is an

underlying sense of complacency; as I’ve mentioned before in our company, it


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comes out in ways like this. “Well, we’ve always done it this way, and it’s

worked.” Stepping out to behave differently entails risk, and without a

compelling and urgent reason to change, these risks are rarely one that employees

will take, or sustain over time, so they become new habits. Some form of

leadership is necessary, a compelling reason to change, a clear vision, a sense of

urgency about it, clear communications, reinforcement from some kind of a

guiding coalition, and a way to mark the changes so that they can be reinforced,

and anchored in the corporate culture.

Our corporate culture development committee, led by our president, was a

guiding coalition for our organization. They communicated the value statement,

acted as champions and advocates for culture change, and they raised issues for

the leader’s attention. Now, just as leadership influences the way a corporate

culture develops, leadership is critical to the alignment of values, attitudes and

habits. A lack of leadership around these factors causes a culture to find its own

equilibrium, or the loudest voice or value that is heard. This may not be in

alignment with the business goals.

Coordinated leadership is a further challenge, especially when creating

culture change. Leaders must agree on what behavior to use, where, and when.

Communication is a very important alignment mechanism; if the leadership isn’t

attending, to have communication that’s focused, it contributes to a lack of clear

focus in the culture. Now, you’ve probably heard that you get what you measure.

The key to alignment lays partly in accountability; when something is measured,

it is possible to get better alignment through holding others accountable to the


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measure, and arranging rewards so that they’re tied to the achievement of a goal.

The lack of these aspects can hurt the alignment of values, attitudes and habits.

Now, leadership is distinct from management, and it’s the key to

successful culture change. Once formed, our culture development committee

went off-site for three days to do some team development work, and to generate a

vision statement that was a product of all the perspectives of those on the team,

something that incorporated our mission statement. We spent the rest of the time

together defining the kind of behaviors that create a high performing team that

will take risks and learn together, used all the potential of the diversity on the

team.

We also concentrated on activities we could create that would move the

organizations towards that culture; things such as policy changes, leadership

training guidelines, and other items like that. Establishing direction means

developing a vision of the future, often the distant future, and developing

strategies for producing the changes needed to achieve the vision. Aligning

people means communicating the direction in words, and deeds, to all those who’s

cooperation may be needed, so as to influence the creation of teams and coalitions

that understand the vision and the strategies, and accept their validity.

Well, when we announced the vision at the employee communication

meetings, we expected a standing ovation. After all, we were so excited about

what we’d created. However, no one even batted an eye. We were confused and

disappointed; however our president noticed that he didn’t appreciate the parent

company’s value statement, until he had a chance to challenge it formally, in a


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day-long meeting. He suggested that we should have a vision challenge, and

create an experience for the employees to generate some strategies, as well as

learn some basic skills to support those strategies. So we invented a program for

all the employees we called ACE—A-C-E. It stood for Adventures in Culture

Enhancement.

It was a three-day program to mobilize the organization, in groups of

about 80 at a time, to challenge the vision, learn some basic skills in

communication, and generate some strategies for culture change. We intended,

by this, to motivate and inspire each employee to work with us on creating our

future. For us, motivating and inspiring meant energizing people to overcome

major political, bureaucratic and resource barriers to change; a place to share

some personal passion and enthusiasm, and satisfy these unfulfilled needs. Now,

this type of leadership can produce a real dramatic change in corporate culture. It

is a critical element in successful culture change, but it must be supported with

some other factors.

There are three leverage points that drive action leading to results:

knowledge and skills, tools and resources, and mind set. Now, as a leader,

mindset is a critical factor in leveraging change. How many of you listening to

this have a goal to become more physically fit? Think about it. Do you have the

knowledge and skills to do it? Do you have the tools and resources at hand? It is

mindset that generates the discipline of making the right choices to accomplish

the goals. Culture change involves the leaders own mindset as well. This mindset


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is often underestimated as one of the drivers of action, but it is the single most

important driver.

Culture change begins with how we behave, and how we relate. This

means that if we want to change how we behave and relate, it all begins with our

thinking. A mindset of objection leads to a sabotage, attack, and resistance. It

often sounds like “I won’t”. A mindset of resignation and apathy leads to inaction

and avoidance, and it often sounds like “I can’t”. A mindset of obligation and

compliance leads to doing the minimum required; to go through the motions, and

to act only when told to. Employees may also attempt to erode the standard, try to

kind of bring the culture back to the status quo, and this often sounds like “I have

to.”

However, a mindset of interest leads to action based on interest level, and

sounds like “I’d like to,” and a mindset of commitment and ownership to the

change leads to continual self-generated action, and creativity, as well as

innovation, and it often sounds like “I will, no matter what.” Point here: You

cannot make a culture change with the first three mindsets; these are insufficient

to generate sustainable change. A sustainable level of achievement for vision and

goals requires actions beyond those that come from obligation or compliance.

Now, these essential mindsets can be generated by leaders through both

living and modeling the ownership, commitment and urgency appropriate to the

situation. Before our ACE, our Adventures in Cultural Enhancement program,

the leaders spent time planning our role in behavior, and coordinating them

thoughtfully. As many board members as possible were present for each of our


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ACE programs, and the president opened the program with a statement, that he

was declaring a safe place for truth-telling, and he would personally guarantee

that there would be no retribution for sticking one’s neck out to speak the truth.

We participated in, as board members, all the skills training, which

included role plays, and the president and I, as the vice president of human

resources, became the storytellers, who told the story of the company’s beginning.

We asked anyone in the audience who wanted to join in with the storytelling to

raise their hand during the chronology of the unfolding and say what was going

on in the company when they joined. We realized that we were responsible, as

leaders, for making the environment safe for telling the truth. This would be

created more by what we did than what we said.

Now, here’s something that very few people realize; the way we think

depends on the questions we ask ourselves. Thinking is really an internal

question and answer process. The great thing about this is that our thinking is in

our control, if we really get it, about the power of questions, about how they can

be the key to everything, beginning with our moods and our mindsets. These are

key skills to learn about being in charge of our thinking. Now, judger questions

generate a mood of helplessness, depression, self-doubt, low self-confidence,

when directed internally. Let me play some of these out for you, and I’d like you

to listen to these questions, and think about how they make you feel. What’s

wrong? Whose fault is it? How can I stay in control? How could I lose? How

could I get hurt? Why bother?


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So how did these make you feel? Many people respond that they make

people feel like helpless, depressed, in doubt of themselves, low confidence.

When you use these questions externally, we can get blaming, anger, and some

win/lose conflict. Now, let’s try some learner questions, and tell me how these

make you feel. What’s right? What am I responsible for? What is the big

picture? What can I learn? What is the most useful thing to do? What’s

possible? How do these questions make you feel? Well, when directed

internally, they can create a mood of open-mindedness, positivity, acceptance,

possibility, and flexibility. Used with others, these questions can get some

problem solving happening—innovation, accountability, information and

innovation.

These are all examples of questions we ask ourselves. Now the questions

we ask others come from the ones we ask ourselves, so which questions could you

ask yourself that would generate the kind of mindset that would lead to

possibility. So let’s take a look at the learner mindset some more. Learner

mindset is based in acceptance, curiosity, not knowing, and flexibility. Another

quality I could add to this list would be open-mindedness. It’s not that we want to

avoid a judger mindset; it’s human nature to be in a judger mindset. However,

engaging a learner mindset consciously and strategically, when faced with a need

for change, enables us and others to become more adaptable to shifts, different

ideas, perspectives, and challenges. Choosing the mindset we want to be in

involves asking these learner questions.


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Let me pause for a moment and simply review with you a little bit about

how learner and judger mindset is different from one another. Where judger

mindset is more around human nature, the learner mindset is more what we want

to move to, in terms of human spirit. Judger mindset involves advocating,

automatic behavior; it’s a bit critical and judgmental. It has a know-it already,

I’ve got to be right, my point of view is the only point of view. It’s the part of us

that causes us to bait with one another. Feedback can be seen as hurtful, and the

primary mood is protecting ourselves, attacking or defending.

Learner mindset is more about inquiring; it’s more thoughtful, it’s a place

where we’re more accepting and unbiased in our stance. We tend to go for

multiple perspectives, in an inquisitive way. We tend to be a little bit more

flexible and adaptive. Our point of view could include others, as well, and it

involves, instead of debate, dialogue. Frankly, the primary mood here is

curiosity, and you just can’t be in judger mindset when you’re curious. So, if you

ask yourself a learner question, just one learner question will move us and others

onto the path of possibility.

One of the skill sets that we taught at our ACE, Adventures in Cultural

Enhancement, program was seeking and telling, which we decided to employ in

the face of differences, in dealing with different ideas. The idea of this was to

remain in learner mindset, whenever faced with something that stirred our judger

mindset. The steps involve noticing when our judger mindset got hooked, and

then asking a learner question of the other person, listening generously, with a

mood of pure curiosity. We did it through role playing, and during the portion of


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the Adventures in Cultural Enhancement program, when we have the vision

challenge, employees sent representatives to a group in the main room to sit with

the management board and talk about the issues that currently were at play that

represented barriers to achieving our vision.

The rule of this exercise was, as leaders, we needed to stay in the learner

mindset, and ask questions of the representative that was bringing out the barriers.

This permitted the truth to be told, and heard by all present. By asking questions

as leaders, rather than defending, explaining or solving the issue that was being

brought up, we were seen as open, not knowing, curious, and accepting. This

inspired the employees to see room for their involvement, and contribution to

making the changes necessary in the culture.

The next day, after this experience, the employees were permitted to group

themselves by the themes that came out of the truth-sharing session. They were

requested to present back to the large group the issues they saw under that theme,

the aspects of the culture that would need emphasis, in order to make a difference

for that issues, and then what specific action the leadership could take for support

to make this happen. By the end of the last day of our three-day Adventures in

Cultural Enhancement program, employees stood up to announce that they were

thoroughly committed to taking personal responsibility for the behavior changes

necessary to support the kind of culture, one that we painted, that would generate

the vision.

They appreciated our leadership stance; they found it very inspiring. We

created through this ongoing structures we entitled “affinity groups,” around the


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most urgent issues, and we asked employees with a personal passion around that

theme, and ones that had ideas, to join one of these groups. These affinity groups

were expected to make proposals to the management board, for what kind of

structures, systems and skills that would need development, in order to bring

about the culture change to address their specific theme. It was a great time. The

mood of curiosity was really key for us in being able to hang in there as a leader,

and be able to just stay in the question.

So, here are the steps to culture change that we used at our company.

One: make the culture change a strategic objective. This means that the

leadership is squarely behind the change in both word and deed. The mindset is

evident in the way the leader speaks to the corporate vision, values and behaviors

that support them. The leaders must walk the talk, continuously, over time, and

consistently, to sustain the focus every day. Asking questions of employees when

walking around, from the learner mindset about employees, it helps if some

employees see the connection between changes in behavior, and changes in

strategy. This is very powerful. It’s also powerful for the leaders to speak to the

reason for changes, whenever possible, at meetings, training programs, and other

venues.

The second piece of the model is for employees that employees only

engage the new cultural norms when they are personally invested in them. This

means that there must be involvement in exploring and choosing the new vision,

values, and attitudes for themselves. The systems and skills of the organization

must be in place to support the change; if policies are out of step with the desired


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culture, then there will be an artificial barrier. Barriers are artificial because

they’re often of human construction. This could be attributed to intolerance for

difference, such as race, gender and level.

Now, thirdly, once there’s a structure for dialogue, agreement around new

behaviors, supported by leadership, and a good dose of listening and support of

resources, the barriers can then fall away. It’s important to remember that culture

change is a process. It’s not an event. There must be reinforcement of the

agreements for change in the planned communications within the organization,

even how the smallest meetings are conducted and managed. Employees must be

empowered, in creative ways, to step out with some new and perhaps

uncomfortable behaviors, in support of the desired culture, in everyday business.

Training in the skill sets most strategic to the change is a good idea.

Affinity groups, training, and policy changes made a true difference to reinforcing

the new culture. In our organization, this included a follow-up leadership training

program, with all managers within the company, to discuss the expectations of

leaders now in the new culture and help them design how they would now lead

and reinforce messages through both word and behavior in the new culture. We

spent time talking about it and achieving some alignment with all the managers

and leaders in the company at this meeting.

Finally, in the fourth part of the model, it’s critical to value all the

contributors to the culture change. If anyone feels disenfranchised, they may fall

into resignation. Here, it is important to attend to the usual, disenfranchised

groups for your organization, such as office assistants, other lower level


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employees. At our company, we have a non-exempt employee affinity group,

who became active and powerful in creating policy changes in training to support

our new culture.

With the culture change effort at my company, we created some metrics to

measure the culture changes. We conducted a baseline, and a follow-up employee

survey. We collected turnover, and productivity metrics, head count metrics, and

information about how our employees saw the company, as well as how our

company was seen in the outside marketplace. I personally made a habit of

interviewing every new employee after their first two weeks with the company; I

was curious about how new employees would experience our culture, as

distinctive from others they’ve been a part of. It was interesting; they would

inevitably say to me, “But you work here. Don’t you know?” And I would tell

them that I’d already been there too long to see the culture with fresh eyes.

From their description of what the culture felt like when they described it,

and what they observed, I found out just how much we were able to make a

substantive and notable shift in how it felt to be an employee in the organization.

Word got out about the wonderful culture at this company, even within the family

of companies we belonged to, and we had no trouble attracting the kind of

employees we wanted. Not only that, the company was written up in a major,

prestigious business magazine for the work we did to build a culture that

supported the business vision. Best, the company went from a net profit of $40

million to $500 million in only six years, with only 1,000 employees. Today, six

years later, they are a global company with sales of way over $3 billion.


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Culture change is a continuous improvement process. Staying persistent

with this culture change process, over the long run, is critical. Going to the next

initiative while dropping the continuous focus on how the new initiative is

handled in the new culture will undermine the change process. After all, most

employees are skeptical about culture change, and are waiting for the signals to

say that the management really doesn’t mean it, and we’re going back to the way

it’s always been. Resistance is a normal reaction to change; it’s a sign that ones

world is being affected, and it’s an opportunity to discuss the issue and engage the

other person in becoming enrolled in a way that includes them, their priorities,

and their values.

Working with the objections and the questions is a necessary part of the

culture change process. If you choose to engage consultants, run formal

gatherings, train employees and managers, and do other such activities, you need

to know that there’s going to be a cost for all of this in time, money, and other

resources. Be prepared for that, and also be sure to attend to the leaders who

influence how the old culture gets reinforced, and how the new one gets

reinforced.

Listening as a leader is key, but it’s not easy for leaders who came up and

were reinforced by an old culture, who might have been usually rewarded for

knowing, telling and directing to do this without explaining, defending and fixing.

Crises are the best way to reinforce that the leaders really are committed to the

new culture. In the face of some kind of crisis or stress, hanging in to reinforce

the new cultural values can go a long way to demonstrating that leaders really


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mean it. Now, at our company, we happen to have had a quality crisis. The

employees, of course, were watching us carefully, expected the leaders to go back

to the old, familiar way of working. But you know something? In our case, it

didn’t happen.

We were very intentional with our communication. We communicated

our commitment to the new ways of working. Keeping the communication open,

intentional and authentic is very important here, doing this formally and

informally. We, at our organization, had a great tool for stopping the action in a

meeting when employees noticed that the old culture was being practiced. We

introduced marbles that would symbolize the new culture, and a bowl of marbles

—colored marbles—sat in every conference room in the company, and when a

budget meeting was underway, or any kind of regular business, any employee at

the table could take a marble, which would then signal to the leader of the

meeting to acknowledge the one who took it. He or she would ask the employee

for what they noticed that was going on, “Why did you take the marble?” And

the employee might say, “Well, I noticed that Joan has been trying to be heard,

and we keep talking right over her.” The issue could be dealt with on the spot,

and Joan would feel supported, as well. Or later, it could be brought up and dealt

with, but nevertheless, the marble symbolized “I’m stepping out into an

uncomfortable place, to take a risk, to act in support of the new culture.”

Just be prepared as a leader to make sure you’re recognizing the new

behaviors. One idea might be to install a peer recognition system around the new

desired behaviors. Just as scaffolding is taken down when a building is finished,


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the infrastructure of affinity groups, or other temporary systems or structures that

support change, must eventually be considered and potentially dismantled, in

favor of truly institutionalizing the new structure.

Often, during culture change, there is the new culture, and also the way it

already and always really works. These represent parallel tracks; these parallel

tracks must merge into everyday behavior, in order for the change process to be

complete. Recognizing that they are working together, you need to attend, as a

leader, to making that merge happen, and institutionalizing change whenever you

can.

As a leader, this takes operating consciously and strategically from a

learner mindset. It also involves taking a stand to create an enquiring culture, one

where questions are part of the fabric of how work gets done. Building inquiry

into the collective mindset of the organization is an essential way of extending

leadership throughout the culture. Mobilize for strategic action in a way that

involves all employees; this way, they can see themselves benefiting from

committed to action, and committed to action that supports the vision, the mission

and the strategy. They must be able, therefore, to see themselves in the vision,

and feel important to the strategy, and they must see their every day behavior as

connected in some way to bringing about the desired future. In this way, the

organization has a built in capability for continuous adaptation, flexibility and

change.

Tracey, do you have any questions?


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Matisak: Well, as a matter of fact, I do, Andrea, because it certainly is more than a notion

to change a corporate culture, and I’m wondering, since your company did it so

successfully, what do you think was the single most important ingredient in

winning the employees trust and confidence, as you stepped out on that new

venture?

Zintz: I think the employees, at first, were very mistrustful, that what we were saying

could be backed up by behavior. It seemed to them fantastic and rather

unbelievable, almost as if they’re speaking fairy tale. So, the important single

most critical element was the leader’s behavior; it was behavior, not what we said.

So they would watch us very carefully. When we went to a sales meeting, we

would coordinate beforehand how we need to behave at that sales meeting. We

made rules for ourselves, like you can’t group in groups of leaders; watch the kind

of stories you tell, and the kind of jokes you tell; make sure you’re intentionally

inclusive of other employees; hang out and spread yourselves around; ask

questions, “What’s up? What have you noticed that’s different?” And be willing

to engage in dialogue. It was the leadership behavior that really, on a consistent

basis, tipped off the employees that something was really different around here.

Matisak: It really shows that actions do, in fact, speak louder than words.

Zintz: Yes.

Matisak: So, so important. Talk to about how long it takes to do a process like that,

because it is quite a process, as you mentioned in your presentation, to change that

culture. This is something that I would think management would have to be in for

the long haul.


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Zintz: Thank you for raising that. One of the things that, in our company, we had going

for on our side was size. We were new; it signaled that we’re joining something,

we’ve got a different marketplace. People were primed in a start-up mindset.

Because we were rather small, even though we were rapidly growing, and because

we were kind of an entrepreneurial phase of our business, it was easier for us than

it would be for a larger organization. I would say that it took us about two to

three years to truly change our culture from that of the parent company. So, even

with a small and nimble organization, three years is an evolution.

Matisak: So really it is a long-term process.

Zintz: It is, and the larger the company, the more complex, the more the leaders are

embedded in the way it had always been, especially if it had been very successful,

the more difficult it is to change culture. It means coordinated and systematic

leadership action, it means a very, very clear and ongoing communication plan,

and it means staying persistent, probably over five years, in a large company.

Matisak: How did you, as managers, resist the temptation to go back to the old way, and

persist in the new values that came with the new culture?

Zintz: We would up talking a lot with one another as leaders. It always was a topic at

our board meetings—now, we had two kinds of board meetings; we had strategic

board meetings, and operational board meetings. At the operational board

meetings, we had less conversation about culture, but whenever we had our

quarterly strategy meeting, we also talked about how is it going, how is the crises

du jour impacting our ability to hang in there and operate this new way, what are


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the signals in the metrics telling us about how we’re doing against our goal of

having employees truly see the new way of operating.

So we were always looking at metrics, making time at our board meetings

to hear from the affinity groups, and making sure that we were staying on top of

our culture change.

Matisak: A manager may be listening to you right now, and saying, it sounds like a

wonderful idea, but what about productivity? We’ve got to invest a lot of time in

changing the mindset. We’ve got to spend time with employees in teaching them

what this new vision is all about. How do you balance that with productivity

issues, while you’re on a long-term, three-to-five year process perhaps?

Zintz: Well, here’s the good news: When you’re paying attention to it, the good news is

that you will, in fact, get a surge of productivity. Why? Because as you inspire

employees to see hopefulness, and see themselves in this new culture, they will

work harder, and put more in, in hopes that they’ll be able to contribute something

to bringing it about. This means that it’s not up to the leaders to make the change,

although they are—it’s important for them to sponsor and champion the change,

and watch it in their own deeds and actions, and the kinds of questions they ask;

you want to involve and engage the employees, and hook them in making a

behavioral shift. This will get a tremendous amount of productivity and

momentum.

Here’s the scary part: If you, as a leader, don’t persist in keeping this in

front of the employees, they will think, with the first bump in the road, the first

crisis, you didn’t really mean it, and in fact, they may feel a sense of betrayal, and


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you may get a productivity decline, if employees suddenly get turned off and say,

“It would be one thing if they’d just continued the way it had always been, but

they promised that this would be different, and then all of a sudden, they let the

first crisis go back to the old way. I knew this would happen.” But you get that

betrayal feeling.

Matisak: It really points out the critical importance of investing in people. People respond

to that, when they feel as though there’s being an investment made, in not only

the company, but in them as employees. That works wonders, does it not?

Zintz: It certainly does, and that’s where you get this tremendous involvement, working

for you. People—I’ll tell you, people join these affinity groups, right and left.

But in joining the affinity group, it did take some time away from the every day

work, and that’s when you have these parallel tracks. The key here is not to allow

yourself to fall into saying, well, you’re doing the work of the culture, and you’re

getting your job done. And that’s where you have to be careful that the parallel

tracks stay parallel, and they don’t overtake one another, and that eventually you

can hang with it long enough for the changes to truly become institutionalized,

truly become ingrained, so that I’m not having to think consciously if I’m doing

the new culture; it’s a natural, authentic way to work.

Matisak: So much of that is really getting people’s buy-in, getting people to feel a sense of

ownership about what’s happening, and you talked about mission statements, and

just the time that it takes to get everyone’s buy-in, to make each and every person

feel as if their voice counts in that process.


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Zintz: That’s where the learning mindset—the learner mindset—really comes into play.

If it’s my way is the right way, and we’re arguing and debating over who’s way is

right, then we’re really not engaging each other’s learner mindset, and we don’t

have the openness, acceptance, and flexibility to truly make use of everyone’s

contributions. So, by teaching some basic skills, in seeking and telling across

differences, in being able to give and receive feedback in a way that honors and

respects different points of view, and different operating styles, this really lays the

groundwork and the foundation for everyone to feel that they can contribute, and

everyone to see that they might have a place in the new culture.

Matisak: In your company, when you were talking particularly about giving people the

freedom to speak the truth; that’s something that many employees initially would

say, oh, sure, this is a way to trap us, this is—they want us to give them some

information that is going to be used against us. That’s a mighty step to take, to try

to get people on board with an idea like that.

Zintz: It was really risky to do it, and I have to tell you as a leader, I wanted so badly to

explain, defend, fix, and it was hell not to do it. I think the hardest thing for me,

in that process, was not to go ahead and say, oh, you got it all wrong. I was there,

I know you’re not speaking quite right about it, or let me explain. We had to stop,

because by allowing even truths that were only perceptions to live, it hooked

everyone around listening to that, to it’s okay, even if you’re not right to be heard,

to be considered.

Matisak: Did you have to put parameters around that, because sometimes, when you

encourage people to speak out, speaking truth could become a gripe fest, and


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certainly, there is plenty of that in some offices. So how do you put parameters

around that to keep people focused?

Zintz: Great. We wound up, the next day, giving people a place to turn that gripe energy

into productive energy. So that was when we put people in groups, according to

their particular passion, so that they could say, “Well, what are the real issues

here? And what are the solutions we would suggest the company consider?” In

this way, we gave a foundation for the griping to be turned into suggestions for

action, and by coming forth, after the event, from groups, to give us specific ideas

at our board meetings, we could turn that into how do we then make a policy

change, create a training program, have a listening for a disenfranchised group,

that would give people a chance to say, okay, now we can institutionalize this in

ways that bring it toward action that supports business goals.

Matisak: And it had to be very important to implement some of that information, if you

want people to feel as though their voices really are being heard, as if they’re

being counted in the mix, you’ve got to do something with the information you’re

given, once you solicit it.

Zintz: That’s true, and that’s where the communications plan kicks in big. You want to

communicate your changes, celebrate the people that contribute to the changes.

You want to celebrate milestones, you want to kick off a peer recognition system,

so that I can say thank you in some visible and tangible way, when you have

worked with me in a way that represents the new culture.

Matisak: It also gives people in certain managerial roles an opportunity, I would think, to

become a strategic business partner, to step out of there traditional role, perhaps


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as an HR person, something else, and really become a strategic business partner;

almost take on a new role in changing a culture.

Zintz: It’s a real turn-on, and that’s what gives a rise to the momentum that you can get

in productivity, is that feeling that, oh my God, there’s an opening for me to be a

strategic partner in support of that vision. Let me also say that there is a little bit

of a risk here. You might have leaders who thrived in the old culture, in the status

quo, who really don’t see themselves in the new culture. They’re turned on.

Well, there’s a price to pay, obviously; the question that leaders have to ask, the

ones that you know for years came up in the old culture: Am I willing to risk

losing this person? And that is one of the tough decisions that one has to make

when you move to a new culture. There are people who will no longer be as

powerful, who can’t make the change, who may be sort of left behind, and

potentially will leave. And maybe, if it’s truly that your culture has to support the

new strategy and goals, it’s a good thing.

Matisak: And inevitably, that’s just a part of the process, that there is going to be some of

that in the midst of change. But I think that you can’t argue with success, and you

made the point with regard to your company, how successful, ultimately, that

culture change was. Just talk again about the improvements to the bottom line,

first of all, and very quickly, in our last few minutes, what the payoff was, for the

time that was invested in that culture change.

Zintz: Well, the obvious ones were the ones that you could develop metrics around—the

lower turnover, the rise in employee productivity, our employee survey

demonstrating that it was more a climate for innovation, engendered more


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employee satisfaction, higher morale. And of course, the number showed not

only high productivity but also moving from sales of $40 million to $500 million

in just six years.

Matisak: And so often the bottom line is the bottom line and you can’t argue with that kind

of success. Powerful evidence. For sure. Well, I’m afraid that we have run out

of time, and we just want to ask you very quickly if you have a closing thought

before we end for today.

Zintz: Well, I guess the closing though would be that it’s so important to remember that

questions are powerful, and if you can come from a place of inquiry, in the midst

of culture change, you’re going to invite the kinds of contributions that will help

accelerate your progress, in your culture change process.

Matisak: Well, Andrea, we want to thank you for sharing your insights with us, and we

want to hear from you, too; make sure that you complete that evaluation form at

the end of your handouts, and let us know your thoughts about today’s program.

On behalf of Andrea Zintz and the Federal Training Network, thanks to all of you

for watching and participating in today’s program. I’m Tracey Matisak. Have a

great day.

[MUSICAL OUTRO] [END RECORDING]


changing the organizational culture - andrea zintz

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