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le:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/JPERRY/My%20Documents/AdvisoryBoard/boardmeeting052105.txt

001

ADVISORY BOARD

DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION ANDNATURAL RESOURCES

INTERNATIONAL MOTORS SPORTS

0 HALL OF FAME AND MUSEUM

2 May 21, 2005 - 9:00 a.m.

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002A P P E A R A N C E S

ADVISORY BOARD MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE:

Mr. Bill Hatley

Mr. Ross M. Self

Dr. Gaines Smith

Dr. Wayne May

Mr. Louis Coles

Mr. Barnett Lawley, Commissioner0 Dr. Warren Strickland

Mr. W. Grant Lynch

2 Mr. James W. Porter, II

Mr. Johnny M. Johnson

4 Mr. George Harbin

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003

I N D E X

CALL TO ORDER............... 4

INVOCATION.................. 4

INTRODUCTION OF

BOARD MEMBERS............. 4

APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF

LAST MEETINGS............. 6

PUBLIC HEARING.............. 7

0 DCNR DEPARTMENTAL REPORTS.. 96 DISTRICT REPORTS.......... 122

2 NEW BUSINESS.............. 152

SELECTION OF DATE

4 AND LOCATION............ 154

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004

May 21, 2005 9:00 a.m.

CALL TO ORDER

MR. COLES: I'd like to call the

meeting of the May 21st meeting of the

Conservation Advisory Board. And no. I am

not Dan Moultrie. Mr. Moultrie has a family

conflict today and will not be present with

0 us. And at this time, I'd like to call on

Mr. Johnny Johnson to give us our invocation.

2


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INVOCATION

4

(Whereupon, the invocation was given by Mr.

6 Johnny Johnson.)

INTRODUCTION OF BOARD MEMBERS

9

0 MR. COLES: We'll now have the introduction of the Board members by

2 Commissioner Lawley.

MR. LAWLEY: Thank you, sir. First

005

of all, I want to thank Grant Lynch and the

Talladega Superspeedway for hosting this

meeting. It's a beautiful facility and if

you have time after the meeting to ride

around and look at this whole racetrack, it'sphenomenal. It's such an asset to this area

and where I live, also. It's very important

to us.

I'd like to introduce the Board members

0 in attendance. Bill Hatley, Ross Self, Dr.

Gaines Smith, Dr. Wayne May, Louis Coles,

2 Grant Lynch, Jim Porter, Johnny Johnson and

George Harbin.

4 We also have a new member today that is taking a turn for Mr. Bud Willis who served

6 this advisory board very well in the State of

Alabama and did a good job. His term was up.

Dr. Warren Strickland was appointed by the

9 Governor and this is his meeting.

0 Dr. Strickland is a lifelong bow hunter.

He started bow hunting with his father when

2 he was twelve years old in Arkansas. You may

have seen him on TV. I have several times on006

Mossy Oak shows. His knowledge of hunting,

his knowledge of biology and habitats will be

a tremendous asset to this Board.

He's very active with the Boy Scouts.

He's an outdoor person and that's what we

really need as we all have our love in our

hearts for the outdoors.


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He's a very successful cardiologist and

heart surgeon in Huntsville, Alabama.

0 Warren, we are happy to have you aboard.

Thank you.

2

APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF LAST MEETINGS

4

MR. COLES: Next item on the agenda6 is the approval of the minutes of the last

meetings of February and March.

UNIDENTIFIED BOARD MEMBER: So

9 moved.

0 UNIDENTIFIED BOARD MEMBER:

Seconded.

2 MR. COLES: We have a motion to

second. All Board members in favor please

007signify by raising your right hand. Motion

carries.

MS. ROBIN: I'll have him to repeat

that.

PUBLIC HEARING

MR. COLES: The next item on the

agenda is the public hearing section of our0 meeting. And before we get started, I'd like

to call your attention as you signed up to

2 speak on the sign-in sheet, down at the

bottom, there was a little disclaimer. It

4 says: I agree to provide only truthful and

factual information to the Board.

6 Felt like this was necessary. Sometimes,

we, as Board members, sit here and we have to

determine whether the information that's9 given is factual or a fabrication or

0 exaggerated or what. And so we ask that you

abide by this.

2 Under the miscellaneous topic -- and,

please, bear with me as I try to pronounce

008

these names. Mr. Kevin Archie from Kinslin,

Alabama. Is Mr. Archie here?


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MR. JONES: (Inaudible.)

(Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that

the speaker could not be heard. Adjustments

to the microphone system were made.)

MR. JONES: Good morning,

0 Gentlemen. Thank y'all for allowing us to speak today. I want to welcome the new

2 member Mr. Strickland. Thank you for

accepting the job where it's impossible to

4 make everybody happy.

Kevin Archie could not be here today. He

6 is the president of the Alabama Muzzleloader

Association. His two daughters are playing

their final t-ball game this morning. Asked

9 me to speak for him.0 He basically just wanted me to tell y'all

thank y'all. They really appreciate the

2 opportunity y'all have done. Didn't have any

complaints about any of y'all or anything

009

that y'all have done. May be the only group

today that you hear that from.

Their membership is expanding. Enjoyed

the days they had of hunting last year. Theonly thing Kevin brought up to ask -- or told

me to ask y'all about was Youth Day this year

is on November 12th. And then the

muzzleloader season is coming in from the

14th to the 18th if I understand it correctly

0 which is a Monday through Friday before

regular gun season came in.

2 The reason for asking is if y'all would

consider either having a Youth Day on the4 12th and the 13th for us who have two kids

like he does. We have to figure out which

6 one gets to shoot first. Or opening the

muzzleloading season possibly on the 13th

where the folks who do like to use the

9 muzzleloaders would have one week -- at least

0 one day on the weekend of season like

everybody else does. If you would consider


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2 that then he would be appreciative of it.

Besides that, he wanted to reiterate

010

thank you for what y'all have done and be

open-minded on expanding the different means

of access to people to have and enjoy the

woods.

If y'all have any questions, I probablycan't answer them but I can write them down

and provide his telephone number or go out

and call him and get an answer for you.

MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

0 Next we'll hear from Amy Boyanton from

Huntsville.

2 MS. BOYANTON: (Inaudible.)

4 (Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that the speaker could not be heard. Adjustments

6 to the microphone system were made.)

MS. BOYANTON: My name is Amy

9 Boyanton. I live in Huntsville, Alabama in

0 Madison County.

2 (Whereupon, Board members indicated that the

speak could not be heard. Adjustments were011

made to the microphone system.)

MS. BOYANTON: Like I said, my name

is Amy Boyanton. I live in Huntsville in

Madison County. By nature, I'm a

stay-at-home mom with two small children who

are two and five. But December the 19th,

2004, I became in the truest sense of theword "hunting widow."

0 My husband Ben Boyanton was an attorney

in Huntsville. Very successful, full of

2 life, wonderful father, wonderful husband.

Was hunting in a tree stand on private

4 property in a tree stand that he had locked

off on while our oldest son watched. A tree

6 stand he had hunted in time after time with a


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false sense of security because he had hunted

there over and over.

9 He made a very poor choice that day. He

0 had taught our oldest child the importance of

safety in hunting and wearing orange and

2 locking on. And if you ask my five-year-old

why his daddy died, he says: Daddy forgot to

012buckle. This is something that no family

should ever have to go through.

I know that it is required and it is a

choice people make on wildlife management

areas. And I'm here today to beg you and ask

you to make it a requirement for the whole

state private property or wildlife management

area.

My husband's life was very important to0 me and to my family, our community, our

church, friends, people in the legal

2 community in Huntsville. It didn't matter if

his life was on public or private property.

4 It was important. It was special as is any

person's life to their family.

6 And I just ask you to consider changing

it and making it required. My husband was

the type personality, if it had been a9 requirement on private property, he would

0 have loved to buckle it on and complain the

while time.

2 He would have badmouthed whoever made him

do it but he would have put it on and he

013

would be home today with our now

three-year-old and six-year-old who

celebrated their first birthday without theirfather.

And, you know, it's a really bad day.

It's been five months. It's been a very

short time but in some ways, it feels like

longer. But I am raising two sons on my home

with the help of my husband's best friends

0 who I had to call and had to go find him face

down dead in the woods where he had been


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2 laying alone for hours.

But I am raising two hunters because my

4 husband had a passion for his family, his

dogs and for the outdoors. And so my

6 children will always be taught the importance

of safety regardless of where they are.

Regardless of the height or what kind of tree

9 stand they're in.0 But I just would ask you to consider it

carefully for the lives of all hunters in the

2 state of Alabama no matter where they are.

Thank you.

014

MR. COLES: Thank you. We would

like to extend our deepest sympathy for your

loss and appreciate you coming today.

Next is Jack Cropp of Pell City.MR. CROPP: Mr. Cole, Members of

the Board, Mr. Lawley, Mr. Hughes, Members of

the Conservation Department, my name is Jack

Cropp and I'm from Pell City in St. Clair

County.

0 I think it's generally accepted now that

the changes implemented last year have been

2 an enhancement to the hunting experience in

Alabama. And I'm just disappointed that the4 Board continues to approve foolish

restrictions.

6 I hate to see you all regulate a good

thing just to appease a few malcontents.

9 (Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that

0 the speaker could not be heard.)

2 MR. CROPP: I'm concerned about the restrictions in Barbour County --

015

MR. GOODWIN: Can you speak closer

to the mike?

MR. CROPP: They may roll them over

into the rest of the state. You know, deer

hunting in Alabama has evolved from bare

antler buck only to a hunting experience


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that's championed by every state in the

nation.

And these back-up concepts have been

0 looked at and studied over the years and they

might biologically be a bad thing to do.

2 You know when you shoot a deer with three

points on one side -- young deer with three

4 points on one side and let spikes and four pointers walk, you've probably killed the

6 deer with the best genes and let the inferior

buck walk to do the breeding.

You know there's not so much public land

9 in Barbour County with the exception of the

0 management areas. And right now, if the

majority of the people down there really want

2 restrictions, they can have them now just

like they want them.016

Now this focus in Alabama, we don't need

no more Government mandates. But putting

people into the permit system, I assume that

you mean to make it work. The fact that the

anti-dog hunters know that they have the

advantage for most conflicts. The only way

to make the permit system work is to ensure

that complaints against dogs and dog huntersbe substantiated with affidavits and police

0 reports and court orders to prove that

somebody's rights have really been violated.

2 Anti-dog hunters just ain't going to let

nothing work and it ought to be obvious that

4 it's not going to stop with deer dogs.

Some of the charges that have been

6 brought forth against the dog hunters in the

past have been absolutely ridiculous. And I thought I had heard them all. And this year,

9 somebody comes forth and says that they're

0 killing his deer, running his deer on his

property. He called the game warden and the

2 game warden says, "No. I can't do nothing

because they said they was rabbit hunters."

017

Now, Gentleman, that's an insult to Mr.


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Alan and everybody in that department. If

any officers in the conservation department

suspicion that someone was illegally deer

hunting and they -- and they caught them at

it and asked them about it and they said:

Oh, no. We're not deer hunting. We're

rabbit hunting. There isn't an officer in

that department that would just throw their0 hands up and say, oh, okay, and walk away.

They'd search them right there. And if they

2 had buckshot, slugs or a rifle with them,

they'd get a ticket for hunting deer

4 illegally.

Now Rick Yeager who happens to have -- he

6 claims to be a major player in the permit

system in southeast Alabama and he has a web

site called stalk and steal hunters USA. And9 it's nothing less than a dog hunter hate

0 site. And I will challenge the so-called

(inaudible) group from Jefferson County to

2 show where they have ever attempted to reach

a compromise solution with some of these

018

groups.

They come to these meetings looking for

somebody new to come in and kind of complainand when they do, they jump on him like a

buzzard on a roadkill and influence them,

tell them how they can go about getting dog

hunting stopped in that area.

Hunting in Alabama or hunting in the

world is a worldwide tradition for both man

0 and beast. And the liberties that we have to

hunt in Alabama are not equal anywhere in the

2 North America and very few places in the entire world.

4 And it's ironic that today, we've got

Alabamians in places like Iraq and

6 Afghanistan risking their lives to protect

our freedom so that some of those who chose

not to serve can deny them the privilege of

9 hunting on their own land in the

0 manner that they choose when and, indeed, if


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they do come home.

2 To the best of my knowledge, Gentlemen,

there has never been any substantiated

019

evidence submitted that would justify

stopping dog hunting anywhere in Alabama and

there ain't none on the table this year.

When y'all are making your finaldecisions, I just hope that you use logical

common sense and fairness and don't place any

more restrictions on any kind of hunting, dog

or otherwise.

And I'd like to see you take those

0 foolish restrictions off cross bows and I'd

like to see those counties that have had

2 their hunting privileges denied unjustly in

the past, I'd like to see those counties have4 those hunting privileges reinstated. Thank

you.

6 MR. LAWLEY: Thank you, Mr. Cropp.

Next we'll hear from Gary Kendrick.

MR. KENDRICK: Good morning,

9 Gentleman. I would like to express my

0 appreciation to these gentlemen for allowing

me to talk here (inaudible). I wanted to

2 speak to you just a moment this morning. My name is Gary Kendrick and I'm from

020

Pell City, Alabama. I'd like to speak to you

just a moment on the future of our crappie

fishing. What I'm going to say is not to pat

myself on the back. I just want to make a

point of it.

I currently belong to the American

Crappie Association which is a nationalorganization of crappie fishermen. I also

belong to the Alabama Crappie Association

0 which is a large club here in the state of

Alabama. I serve currently on the Angler

2 Advisory Board for the South USA,

Incorporated national tournament trail.

4 By doing so, I've had the opportunity to

travel many states in the southeast over the


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6 last ten years. My wife and I fish national

tournaments, crappie tournaments when my

son's not able to fish with me.

9 Throughout these tours we've discovered

0 that the state of Alabama has the best

crappie fishing overall throughout the state

2 and any of our states surrounding y'all. We

currently can catch quality fish here and021

quantity of fish over all of the other states

in the southeast overall.

But, you know, there's always areas of

improvement. Things we could improve on and

we've just got concerns. Crappie fisherman

that I've talked to have some concern about

the future. In fact, taking a couple of

lakes, for example, on the Coosa River chain,Weiss Lake has been known in the past as the

0 crappie capital of the world.

But for the last several years, there

2 have been some things incorporated to try to

re-establish that lake as the crappie capital

4 of the world. Such as the first three pole

limit and then the ten-inch minimum limit for

6 the fish. And now currently there is a

restocking program that's been going on in that lake for three years.

9 So we look at it and say, well, what's

0 going to bring us back to the extent it was

in the past? I think what we're going to

2 have to do is prevent so many fish from being

taken out of the lake. We can look at that

022

lake with a ten-inch minimum size and we can

fish that lake and we take a lot of nineinch, nine and a half inch fish. So what

happens to the fish ten inches and above?

Might be they're taken out too quickly.

On the other hand, we're looking at Logan

Martin Lake on the banks of the Coosa River

chain. Two lakes below Weiss. We know the

history of Logan Martin Lake. We had some

0 contamination from PCBs dumped into the lake.


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As a result of that, there was a fish

2 advisory implemented for that lake. As a

result of that, the fishing pressure

4 diminished on that lake for a number of

years.

6 But without taking fish out of the lake

for a few years because of the fish advisory,

in turn, this lake has been identified a9 couple years ago in "Crappie World" magazine

0 as one of the best ten lakes in the United

States. Just two weeks ago or three weeks

2 ago, the "Birmingham News" identified Logan

Martin Lake as one of the best crappie lakes

023

in the state of Alabama.

So what are we looking at? Was it

because the fish weren't taken out of thereand they were allowed greater spawn time and

fish were allowed to get to a quality size?

If so, maybe we need to look at something in

addition to the pole limits and length limits

and so on. Maybe it's time again to look at

the reduction of the limit for certain of the

0 fish that they're able to take out of the

lake.

2 All of us can remember not long ago the limit on crappie being taken per person per

4 day was fifty. Now it's thirty. But when we

think of thirty crappie, we're thinking of

6 sixty per lake. Now in the springtime when

the spawn is going on and the crappie are so

easy to catch, we know that people catch a

9 lot of crappie, filet them, put them in their

0 freezer. And much as we hate to say, a lot

of times, they're thrown out because of2 freezer burn or something at the end of the

year.

024

We might need to reduce this to a smaller

number per person and continue to promote

catch and release. We -- in reference back

to Weiss Lake, we know that a lot of times,

we have fishing guides that have clients


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(inaudible) fish per day. Currently, they're

allowed ninety fish per day. And the most

productive time for these guides fishing is

in the spring when the fish are spawning.

0 That's a lot of fish to be taken out of

the lake in one day. And oftentimes, there

2 may be several guides taking them during one

week. So we need to -- that's all legal.4 I'm not saying that they're doing anything

illegal. But we might need to look at the

6 possibly of reduction of the number of fish

per person to be taken out.

And I think that with this, we can

9 continue to look at our lakes in the state of

0 Alabama as some of the most productive as far

as quality and quantity of crappie fish in

2 the United States. Thank you. MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr.

025

Kendrick. Next will be Mr. Joe Thomas from

Pell City.

MR. THOMAS: Good morning. My name

is Joe Thomas. I live in --


the speaker could not be heard. Adjustmentsto the microphone system were made.)

0 MR. THOMAS: Getting back on what

Mr. Kendrick said, I've been fishing the

2 Coosa chain, mostly Weiss Lake up until about

five years ago. And if you want to look at

4 history repeating in the past, you can look

at Weiss Lake.

6 It's my understanding at the (inaudible), there's about thirty thousand out of state

fishing licenses sold in Cherokee County

9 alone every year.

0 The Lake Association saw what was going

on there and what first became the problem

2 was stripes in Weiss Lake were eating the

crappie up. So we changed the deal at Weiss

026


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Lake where you can catch the big stripes and

all and get them out of there because they're

eating the crappie. Well, that didn't work

because you can't control it.

The trollers are taking the fish out of

there. So they got all these trollers taking

all these fish out of there. Well, that

didn't work. So we reduced the pole limit tothree there. And we went to a ten-inch limit

0 (inaudible). You've got all these out of

state fisherman coming with guides and now

2 we're -- if you take so many out, you got to

put them back in. And the restocking program

4 is working and this is the best year they've

had.

6 On pole limits, it doesn't matter if

you've got four poles or forty poles, if you've got a limit, fifteen fish, twenty

9 fish, that's all you can catch. And these

0 guys that are out here enforcing it

(inaudible).

2 If you go to Weiss Lake, you got to have

three poles. If you go to Neely Henry,

027

you've got to have two poles. You can have

fifty poles on Logan Martin. I ask you ifyou advise any more pole limits, standardize

it all over Alabama. Make it four poles

statewide. I have no problem with that

(inaudible). But don't make it three here

and then you can have -- you know, I wish you

would look at going to the ten-inch limit

statewide. It works.

0 That's all I have basically on crappie

fishing. One thing that y'all do -- have any2 influence on legislation, I'd like to see

stiffer fines on littering on these lakes.

4 The last few months you've seen Alabama Power

and some of the local TV stations picking up

6 litter. I think five tons on Logan Martin

Lake. And I would love to see a stiff stiff

fine on littering on lakes.

9 It really bothers me that these people


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0 spend all their time picking up litter and

you see folks throwing beer cans, Coke cans

2 and Vienna sausage cans over the side of the

boat and think nothing about it. They

028

wouldn't do it in their front yard and I

don't think (inaudible) make it a real stiff

fine.As Mr. Kendrick said, we travel several

states and an idea that I have seen in

Indiana and in looking -- I've got a brochure

on handicapped fishing accessibility. In

Indiana, every public launch has a ramp that

you can get into the boat off the water out

0 on a ramp -- a wheelchair. It's complicated

how to explain it. You would have to see it.

2 But I'd like to see more of that -- public ramps for handicapped accessibility.

4 And also in Indiana, they have idle speed

only in the creek channels. And I know that

6 can be a real problem with jet skis. Don't

run by you while you're fishing. And that's

all I've got. Thank you.

9 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

0 Next we'll hear on the Deer-Antler

Restriction. Mr. Kenny Childree from2 Cullman, Alabama.

MR. CHILDREE: Good morning, my

029

name is Kenny Childree. I'm from Cullman,

Alabama. I'm a lifelong resident of Barbour

County. I strongly support the quality deer

management program that is proposed for our

county. My support has not been influenced

by the overwhelming support shown by thepolls nor by the biological data given by the

wildlife biologist. I support this program

because of what I have seen and experienced

0 personally.

For the last twenty-nine year, I have

2 hunted my family property which borders the

Barbour Wildlife Management area. Prior to

4 Barbour going to the three point buck rule, I


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was like most deer hunters. I shot whatever

6 buck I saw and whatever buck came by. I

especially shot the deer if I thought it was

headed toward the Barbour WMA because they

9 would kill it if it made it that far.

0 It was a case of I'll shoot the deer

before somebody else does. When Barbour

2 adopted their three point rule, all of that changed. We, too, went to the three point

030

rule. We no longer shoot the younger bucks

and we promote wild deer management on our

property.

Since then, we have noticed a noticeable

increase in size of the deer and the number

of bucks. This program does work. And I, as

well as others, that border Barbour CountyWMA have benefited from this rule.

One should realize that no one is trying

0 to place a number limit on bucks. No one is

trying to stop the doe harvest. No one is

2 trying to change doe days. And no one is

trying to stop dog deer hunting.

4 Our request has one purpose and one

purpose only. And that is to protect younger

6 bucks. Remember, it wasn't too many years ago when there was just a few days of doe

days at the end of the season. It was

9 considered taboo to be a doe killer.

0 Then we had more days at Christmas and

now we have doe days all season long and we

2 can kill two does on those days. It is no

longer considered wrong to harvest bucks and

031

it is actually promoted by the biologists.All the focus has been on doe harvest and

now it's time to focus on the bucks. Let's

protect these young bucks. Please vote for

this motion.

In the five years that this program will

go on, at the end of these five years, if

it's a bad idea, it'll be obvious. And if

it's a good idea and I truly believe that it


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0 will be, that will be obvious, too. Please

give the hunters of Barbour County an

2 opportunity to try it. Thank you very much.

MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr.

4 Childree. Next we'll have Steve Guy from

Montgomery.

6 MR. GUY: Commissioner, Chairman,

members of the Board, my name is Steve Guy. I'm director of the (inaudible) wildlife

9 division of the Alabama Farmers Federation.

0 Our organization represents over four hundred

and sixty thousand members in Alabama. We

2 represent private landowners and farmers who

own and manage the majority of the wildlife

032

habitat in this state.

I'm here today to speak in favor of theproposed minimum three point buck limit in

Barbour County. Our organization through

it's policy process has endorsed this

proposal.

Our Barbour County Farmers Federation

Board representing over forty-five thousand

acres in Barbour County have unanimously

0 endorsed this proposal. Based on the data

that has been gathered from the Barbour2 County management area and studied from other

states, we have seen that this works. And we

4 feel that this rule will improve the quality

of the deer herd in Barbour County. We also

6 feel that this will benefit both small and

large landowners.

Public meetings and hunter surveys have

9 been held in Barbour County. The results

0 have shown overwhelming support for this rule. We ask that you folks endorse the

2 minimum three point buck limit in Barbour

County when the motion is made. Thank you.

033

MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Guy.

Next we have Grady Hartzog, Eufaula.

MR. HARTZOG: Good morning,

Gentlemen. Can you hear me?


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I'm Grady Hartzog. I'm from Eufaula,

Alabama. I'm a lifelong resident of Barbour

County. I'm on the executive board of the

Wildlife Federation. I'm here today to ask

you to vote for the three point rule. The

0 Wildlife Federation -- y'all have a letter on

your desk where the Wildlife Federation has

2 endorsed the five year study in which to do the three point antler rule.

4 If you remember, I was here in February

before the Board and the Chamber of Commerce

6 had done a survey. Came out ninety plus

percent was in favor. The State came down,

Gary Moody and the biologists and did a

9 survey in Slyol (phonetically spelled) and

0 Clayton and Eufaula and y'all have got a copy

of those results.2 And from a biological standpoint, from a

management standpoint, the biggest thing I

034

see in this thing is the -- it's shown that

the studies that were done on management

areas, we have a tremendous increase in doe

take. We feel like that biological reason

alone is enough to pass this thing in order

to get the herds a better ratio.But I just -- you guys (inaudible) but

one of the comments that was done and y'all

have got the copies of this but it says --

0 and I think this is a good comment. It says:

Let's allow Barbour County to set the new

2 standards for the state of Alabama in

harvesting quality bucks. I'd like to just

4 ask for your support in passing this rule.

Thank you. Any questions?6 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Hartzog.

(Whereupon, Robin indicated that the speaker

9 would need to speak into a microphone.)

0

MR. PORTER: Grady, in the handouts

2 that I've looked at that you've given us,

y'all have stated seven objectives that


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035

you're trying to achieve as stated in those

handouts.

MR. HARTZOG: The objective is how

to better help your herd. In order to do

that, allow the younger bucks to walk to

mature to get in that breeding class, the A

class in which to breed. And, also, from thenext standpoint, to reduce the doe buck

ratio. Probably Barbour County has the

0 eight/ten doe/buck ratio. And, you know,

anybody who reads any management on deer, you

2 know, the proper ratio should be one and a

half to two for one so I mean if nothing else

4 it's that doe ratio.

MR. PORTER: And the other question

6 I had that I didn't see it unless I overlooked it was what type of recordkeeping

or records in reporting do y'all recommend be

9 done to be able to measure the actual program

0 itself?

MR. HARTZOG: We have talked about

2 using statistical samples and having

different plugs to pull y'all along the way

036

just like they've done in the previousquality deer management. We feel like that

if we get enough clubs spread throughout the

county and with the deer harvesters that we

feel like the biologists can get a good

enough representative sample to determine

whether or not the public (inaudible). And

like I said, all this is is a request for a

five-year trial. If it works, it works. If

0 it doesn't, it doesn't. But if we don't try it, we know it won't ever work.

2 MR. STRICKLAND: All right. Let me

ask you a question.

4 MR. HARTZOG: Yes, sir.

MR. STRICKLAND: What kind of

6 support do you have from the local hunters?

MR. HARTZOG: When the Chamber of

Commerce -- when this first came out, what --


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9 the Barbour County Management area completed

0 the five-year study and we're proposing the

same rules that the management area uses.

2 They just published their five-year results.

In fact, that article was published in the

037

Alabama Wildlife Federation magazine. It

shows the results of doing that study.The Commissioner came down and had a

thing. That's kind of how it all got

started. When the Commissioner came down and

spoke to the Rotary Club, several Rotary Club

members said, you know, that sounds so good.

Why can't we have it countywide?

And so there were several of us that got

0 together. Ken White with the local paper ran

a couple of newspaper articles about it. We2 then funded advertising in which we just

asked people to vote on-line. With the

4 Chamber of Commerce, we used a neutral site.

And also had ballots printed in all the

6 papers in Barbour County where people could

vote the ballot. And we ended up with ninety

plus percent in favor.

9 When the State came down, when Gary and

0 Bill and all came down and did the study and we got a copy of the study they did, it was

2 tremendously -- what did it end up, Gary?

Ninety? Ninety-plus percent in favor. I

038

mean the public is behind it.

We've got -- the Chamber of Commerce

passed a resolution. You know, all the --

Mayor and everybody -- you know, everybody in

Barbour County is supporting it and behindit.

MR. STRICKLAND: Thank you.

MR. PORTER: Going back to that

last point. Just looking at the statistics

0 and it shows only eighty-eight people

responded which is, what, three tenths of one

2 percent of the entire population?

Do you have any explanation about why the


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4 public hasn't shown much interest?

MR. HARTZOG: We ended up with over

6 three hundred votes. And with the Chamber of

Commerce, it was three hundred and twenty-one

votes, the Chamber of Commerce did. One

9 thing that's probably -- I don't know this

0 but I've had several comments and all of

these were held at like 6:00 on an afternoon.2 A lot of guys with farming and that type

of stuff, you know, Daylight Savings Time,

039

were still in the field. You know, it might

have been better if we'd have done it at 7:00

o'clock or whatever. But whether we use a

three hundred vote count that the Chamber did

or just discount it, it's still ninety

percent. So statistically --MR. PORTER: Ninety percent of

those who --

MR. HARTZOG: Who attended this and

0 ninety percent of the people that voted on

the --

2 MR. PORTER: My question is: Do

you think the fact that we voted this down in

4 the last meeting had any effect on the lack

of interest in attending these meetings?6 MR. HARTZOG: No. No. There were

a lot of people -- in fact, I had asked

whether or not I could have a copy of the

9 survey to go give to people who couldn't make

0 the meetings. And we just said, well, no.

There are plenty of people that are attending

2 the meetings.

MR. PORTER: So you would agree

040with me that even the three hundred would be

a very small percentage of the people that

hunt in Barbour County?

MR. HARTZOG: Yeah. But, Jim,

statistically if you look at (inaudible), the

State of Alabama itself, the Conservation

Department, is diverting Federal funds from

one program to another on a smaller survey


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deer in this country today? Are we turning

044

it into some kind of God by number of points

on his head? Or do we need to be hunting

that deer like the Good Lord gave us the

dominion over them, taking care of our herd

and being sure they're there for our

youngsters when they come up to hunt?I want you to take a long look at this

before we pass it. It was voted down last

time and it come up again. I want you to

0 take a long look at it and see if we need to

make outlaws out of good honest hunters today

2 for leaving their deer in the woods because

it had horns on it above the hairline.

4 Do we punish our children that haven't

killed a deer? My grandson killed his first6 two deer this year. The first one was a

spike. I wouldn't have took a million

dollars for that kid's face when he killed

9 that spike. Don't take that away from our

0 youth.

I know you've already put in there that

2 the youth on the youth hunting day in Barbour

Management area will be able to shoot the

045small deer. Is that fair to the rest of the

kids that's going to hunt in Barbour County

the rest of the year that can't get down

there on that day? Stop and look at it.

We ask you to think a long time before

you pass this rule on the three pointers

because it's going to have an effect on all

of the hunting in the state of Alabama. And

I personally feel like it will take the0 average wage earner in Alabama totally out of

hunting in Barbour County.

2 Those deer down there -- and one of the

reasons I think this thing should have been

4 notified statewide, that deer, no matter

whose land it's on, belongs to everybody in

6 the state of Alabama. Not that landowner.

Not the people in Barbour County. It belongs


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to the people of the state. They need to be

9 considered before anything's passed against

0 the deer in the state of Alabama.

I just ask you to consider it and I hope

2 the vote comes up like it did before. Thank

you.

046

MR. HATLEY: Don, do you, as a dogdeer hunter, do you believe in deer

management?

MR. KNIGHT: Absolutely. To give

you an example of that, our club when dog

deer hunting goes out, we still hunt the land

the last few weeks of the year. We have a

six point or better rule on our club. We

support the program. We've not killed any

0 does those last few weeks because we figure they've been breed and we want them to have

2 those deer so we can look at them next year.

But that should be my call and the

4 landowner's call; not the State's call. We

will support all day the landowners and the

6 people leasing the land making that decision.

We do it on our club. We support that very

much.

9 And, also, I want to say one more thing.0 After I attended that meeting in Eufaula --

and I wasn't going to bring this up but I

2 just feel like it needs to be.

After I attended that meeting in Eufaula,

047

I received a phone call from an unlisted

number on my cell phone. How they got my

cell phone, I don't know. But I was told

point blank, our lease would be pulled if Icontinued to support this. And I didn't

appreciate that at all. Our lease in Barbour

County would be pulled if I came up here and

spoke. We'll, I'm here. If they want to

pull it, pull it. Thank you.

0 MR. COLES: Next on the subject of

deer management will be Mr. Howard Burns from

2 Hayden, Alabama. I beg your pardon. Excuse


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me. Mr. Ken White from Eufaula.

4 MR. WHITE: Good morning,

Gentleman. I'm Ken White. I'm from Eufaula,

6 Alabama. Y'all notice --


9 the speaker could not be heard. Adjustments

0 to the microphone system were made.)

2 MR. WHITE: Gentlemen, I appreciate

the opportunity to come up here and talk to

048

you for just a second. I've listed mine this

morning under management, deer management,

instead of antler restrictions because I do

believe in quality deer management. I also

support the Barbour County QDM proposal.Nine years ago, I started out on a

journey that ended up with me standing here

now. And that was to try to help get Barbour

County Wildlife Management Area QDM program

0 on the line. I was one of the primary

supporters of it. I have followed it through

2 the years. And now, I was one of the ones

that asked a question.

4 Are Barbour County owners ready to make a change? Are they ready to accept the

6 challenges of QDM and are they ready to go

through the pains that QDM will cause

probably for the first year or two to get the

9 results that we saw at the Barbour County

0 Wildlife Management Area?

I don't expect those results to hold true

2 over the entire county but the improvement

that we will see I think justifies your049

positive vote for this.

I would also say this: We are looking at

this based on Barbour County Wildlife

Management Area results for Barbour County.

We know -- I know from reading and I know

from the studies that I have done and

listening to the experts, what we're


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proposing in Barbour County is not going to

work all over the state of Alabama.

0 But the proposal that is in front of you

right now is based on real data produced from

2 the Barbour County Wildlife Management Areas

for Barbour County. And I would ask for your

4 support for this QDM program. Thank you.

MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. White.6 Next we will hear from Mr. Howard Burns from

Hayden, Alabama.

MR. BURNS: My subject is deer in

9 general but I wanted to address dog hunting

0 and antler restrictions. If you want me to

break that up and come back, I'll be glad to.

2 MR. COLES: Whatever you want to

do.

050MR. BURNS: I can tie it up real

short. Like I say, my name is Howard Burns

and I'm from Hayden in Blount County,

Alabama. I think that the restrictions are

just about telling somebody else what to do,

try to do with them, get them to go along

with what you want to do.

And as far as management of the deer

herd, I think that what is happening with0 antler restrictions is that they're taking

the model of the anti-dog hunters. That

2 started up in North Alabama and what happens

now is anyone who's against dog hunting has

4 stepped up here and said, oh, I've having

trouble with this dog hunter. Mark out this

6 county. Block out this county. Well -- and

we've just come on down the state.

Now you want the antler restrictions9 started in Barbour County. What's going to

0 happen there, it's going to be just flowing

right up and those two are going to meet.

2 Because taking away the rights of the public

hunter, that is not right.

051

And another thing about these polls and

statistics that they take, such a small


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percentage. Give me a statistician, I can

give you one to match that. And let me ask

you if you have ever heard a politician on

the eve of an election say that his polls

don't show that he's going to win. Those

things should be considered.

On the restrictions on the dog hunting, I

0 think we should turn everything over to our conservation department. If they see a

2 biologic need, we will comply with that.

We'll be glad to comply with that. There

4 needs to be a biologic need. Get cities,

towns involved in promoting hunting or not

6 hunting. Well, does commerce slip in there?

Does tourism come in there? What we want is

to address the needs of the public hunter.

9 And I just ask you to consider that when0 you take that vote. Back off on the

restrictions. Let us hunt. Let the

2 law-abiding citizens abide by the law and by

the guidelines set out by the conservation

052

department. We appreciate the opportunity to

speak here today.

MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Burns.

Next we'll hear from Mark Craig fromHuntsville.

MR. CRAIG: Thank you. My name is

Mark Craig. I live in Huntsville in Madison

County. And I want to thank you for what

y'all do for all of us.

0 Secondly, I'm here today as a voice for a

dear friend of mine who no longer has a voice

2 or a say so in any of this. As you heard Ms.

Boyanton say earlier, I'm here today on Ben4 Boyanton's behalf.

I would ask you to look very closely at

6 the safety belt regulation on private land as

it is for management areas and State-owned

land.

9 The last thing I want anybody to get is

0 the phone call that I got from Amy saying Ben

didn't come home. Well, I called the other


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2 gentleman here with us and he and myself

drive to Jackson County up in Stevenson, get

053

there after dark and are going through the

woods with flashlights looking for a dear

friend of yours is not real fun.

And low and behold when you -- lucky we

knew where he would be, where he went all thetime. And low and behold, we got down there

and found what we had to find. And even

worse than that is having to call back and

tell someone's wife that, yes, we found him.

0 And them ask you how he is. It's very very

unpleasant. It's something that sticks with

2 you for a long time.

And I would just ask you to please

4 consider safety belt regulations on private-owned land for the state of Alabama.

6 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Craig.

Next we'll hear from George Ellison from

Dothan, Alabama.

9 MR. ELLISON: I'm George Ellison

0 from Dothan, Alabama. I own property in

Henry County. First of all, I'd like to

2 thank the Commission and Vernon Lawley for

all the does for crossbow.054

We had asked earlier in the year for

consideration for scopes for crossbows. Same

reason that we got crossbows. And also they

be included for turkey season due to

(inaudible) that was going on before this

(inaudible) Mr. Lawley and the Board

(inaudible) induced there to let that slide

for next year.Also, I'd like to say that since a

0 certain name has been mentioned that Rick

Yeagers does not speak for the landowners in

2 Henry County.

Getting to the permit system, I'd like to

4 say that I've attended several meetings both

in Henry and other counties. I'm aware that

6 the permit system is an individual system and


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it must work for an individual area. Lot of

input, a lot of different things that apply.

9 But I can tell you that for our county,

0 Henry County, that last year the groups who

violated this permit system were restricted

2 this year. And I appreciate Commissioner and

Chief Andress for this.

055Many groups that had problems cleaned up

their acts and last year, they had no

violations whatsoever. This speaks positive

on behalf that where a permit system will

work, there are those that will recognize

this and they will respond to it.

On behalf of those who do not recognize

it who continue to violate this, it tells me

that we have in position officers. We have a0 Commissioner that would definitely react to

their attitude.

2 So I would just like to say to this

Board, I appreciate -- and, again, that I

4 know that the permit system has to be

addressed on a local level and that local

6 needs have to be met and that both sides have

to be in agreement and they need to sit down.

They do not need to wait for an eleventh hour9 reprieve.

0 And just let me say again, I appreciate

the way it's working in Henry County and I

2 appreciate the direction that we're going. I

know that there are other problems that we

056

need to work out and we're working toward

that. And I appreciate that so much and I

appreciate having the opportunity to worktowards working these problems out. Thank

you.

MR. COLES: Thank you, George.

Next we'll hear from Allen Hawkins.

MR. HAWKINS: I'm Allen Hawkins,

Cullman County, President of North Creek

0 Hunting Club. We have approximately two

thousand acres leased in the lower end of


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2 Cullman, County.

I'm very much against horn restrictions.

4 I've been president of this club for about

eighteen years. At one time, we set our own

6 restrictions four points or better on our

club. We did this for five years. In five

years' time, we had messed up four points,

9 cow horn spikes and four and five and six0 year old deer. And we went back to taking

these deer. And till this day, we are still

2 taking five and six-year-old deer cow horn

spikes.

057

And the weight we're up to after about

five years -- the weight dropped off and we'd

wait every year and record every deer. We've

done it for the past fifteen years. We couldsee what we're doing on our property and

we've managed it to the best of our knowledge

to what works for us.

Everything doesn't work for every area.

And we need to keep this up to the individual

0 landowners. And that's all I have to say.

Thank you.

2 MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.

Next we'll hear from Dale Jones.4 MR. JONES: Good morning. My name

is Dale Jones. Again, I live in Jefferson

6 County, Alabama. I primarily hunt in

southeast Alabama. I'd like to thank our

members for being here today. Mr. Lawley,

9 I'd like to thank you for the work you've

0 done along with the Board members and our new

member. Robin, where's she at? I'd like to

2 thank her. She makes things work. If you call down there to Montgomery and you ask to

058

speak to somebody, if she tells they're going

to call you back, they're going to call you

back.

And the other officers of the

Conservation and Natural Resources we have

here today, I thank you for all that y'all


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do. We complain about y'all a lot but

everything in here would be a lot less

without you.

0 I ran for Judge last year in Jefferson

County and lost by three percent. I found

2 out how complicated things actually are in

politics. I started looking at a lot of

4 decision that Mr. Lawley has to make and the Board members. We put y'all on our prayer

6 list because you make everybody happy.

Everybody pulling at you. And you've got a

tough job. We appreciate what you do

9 although we don't always agree with you.

0 There was one point that I was wanting to

ask. I understand that the Board is going to

2 vote on what was brought up at the last

meeting. I didn't know if that was the059

understanding. I missed the last meeting.

And I didn't know that some of terms expired

on the Board members. Are they still in

voting capacity? I just didn't know who I

needed to be calling and be kissing up to.

If they ain't on the Board, it's a wasted

phone call. All right.

I've seen a lot of good things over thestate the last couple years. We've had

0 different --

MR. LAWLEY: I was just going to

2 answer your question about the Board members.

MR. JONES: Yes, sir.

4 MR. LAWLEY: The way it is that the

Board members will serve in the same capacity

6 until a replacement is named for him. The

Governor appoints members of the Advisory Board. So Mr. Harbin and Mr. Hatley will be

9 the same member they were at the last meeting

0 when the vote is passed and in whatever they

do until they're either reappointed or the

2 Governor appoints someone new.

MR. JONES: Yes, sir. Thank you.

060

Mr. Hatley, Mr. Harbin, I don't remember


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hunting or whatever other problems they had.

2 And that don't happen too often. I may not

mention his name because he may vote for

062

something I don't like later. But it

actually happened this year. And, actually,

it was Mr. Coles that did that. It don't

happen too often and we thank you for takingthe time to do that.

We've had -- I don't know why. But we've

had a lot of young people come into coon

hunting over the last couple of years. In

East Alabama where this one guy -- I went up

0 by the high school up there, there was dog

boxes in these trucks in a lot of these

2 outlying areas. Hayden -- I've seen a lot of

kids with dog boxes. They're not deer4 hunting. They're coon hunting. I don't know

why but anytime these young folks get into

6 something, that obviously goes back to

they're being encouraged somewhere and it's

good to see them there.

9 Youth Day. Thank you for Youth Day. My

0 five-year-old killed his first deer last year

on Youth Day. I don't understand why we

2 haven't had that before but it was -- Mr. Lawley done that and that was great. I'll

063

never forget that. That'll be a memory I

have the rest of my life. (inaudible) deer

out there and my five-year-old killed a

hundred and forty pound spike. It's a great

day.

But to go along with the good, we've had

some bad. I think our materialism ourselfhas never been higher than it is now. We

watch these TV shows and read these hunting

0 magazines where all you -- all that is, is

you lease the land or pay for a hunt and you

2 sit on a green field and you kill a twelve

point buck. And unfortunately, that's what

4 it's coming to.

I work with a group of attorneys -- and I


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6 said this a few years ago and you laughed but

it's not funny any more. It's normal. They

pay five thousand dollars to take their

9 family to a three-day hunt where they're

0 taken out in the morning and put into an

elevated shooting stand that has a heater and

2 internet connection. They're picked up at

lunch and then they're taken back out that064

afternoon.

That three thousand, five thousand

dollars they're spending is more than most of

the hunting clubs I know of in South Alabama

spend their entire week. And it's just

coming into a have and have not world.

I've been told this by the conservation

department for the past fifteen years.Didn't want to think it was coming to that

0 but it's getting there in a hurry.

Our timber company folks. I don't know

2 if this is the proper place to bring it up

but we've got one timber company (inaudible)

4 pull out of the State management area and

lease their land. They're going to lease it

6 to the highest bidder. They've already got a

list. A lot of them are from out of state. That's not happening because we have a bad

9 commissioner or bad people in the biology

0 department. It's because of flat out money.

And if it happens once, it's going to happen

2 over again and over. I don't know what can

be done about that but it's something that I

065

was hoping this board could put together and

study.Public opinion. We're starting to run a

lot of things by public opinion. Public

opinion -- I ran for election last year.

Public opinion is money. When I ran out of

money, I ran out of public opinion. That's

just the facts. And money is also

statistics.

0 We've got one county right now -- and I


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don't what y'all are going to do with the

2 three point restriction. I don't hunt down

there. It's none of my business.

4 But eventually you're going to have to

decide if you have one group that want the

6 three point restriction because it's going to

help the county and it's in the management

area and it's doing better. And the9 management area is doing better and there's

0 bigger deer.

You've got the other part of the county

2 including Don Knight's clubs and a lot of big

dog clubs that's killing better deer than

066

they've ever killed because they have looked

at it: We're going to keep our deer

population below the carrying capacity of theland. And they're killing bigger deer by

shooting -- basically for years, they shot

everything that they seen. Now they're

killing fewer deer but they had one deer that

was on Rick and Bubba and on TV that they

killed on their property last year.

0 So it's public opinion versus biology. I

don't know. Biology -- whichever side it's

2 on, looks like that's where we need to be going and that's one thing I'm really hereto

4 talk about today.

The deer farming. I do have a point to

6 my rambling because some of these issues --

deer farming, deer farming, deer farming is

all I'm hearing now. I'm hearing it from the

9 White-tail Institute and their magazines.

0 I'm hearing from the enclosure folks.

I'm hearing from Birmingham, the people that2 hunt enclosures and all enclosures and stuff.

Is anybody here in the deer farming business?

067

I thought we was in the conservation

business.

Deer farming business is enclosures is

basically going to be the highest bidder who

can pay for that deer. It's nobody in this


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room typically. I was hoping it was

something that could be addressed by the

Board at some point. Because it's not

happening in the legislature. I'm a

0 (inaudible) Democrat and I hate to say this

but it's crossed the line. It's a Republican

2 and Democrat issue. There's some big money

and big hands in our legislature that will4 not ever let anything be passed through our

legislature about egress or ingress of an

6 enclosure.

High land rental is just wiping out a lot

of our trailer park hunters. And I say

9 trailer park hunters. I grew up in a trailer

0 park. I can talk about it. A lot of our

hunters are blue collar, lower income white

2 collar people that five hundred, six hundred dollar a year lease and club memberships are

068

a thing of the past and they're not being

able to hunt.

It's going to come to a point that we're

going to have to make the decision whether we

want hunter access to maximize our hunter

access or do we want to maximize our land

rental and let a few people like jerkattorneys like me get to hunt while the rest

of y'all sit at home. That's a decision

0 that's going to be made shortly but it's not

being made -- it's not being made all at

2 once. It's being made piecemeal.

The anti-hunters said I'm a Democratic.

4 Folks, there's idiots in both parties and

we've had our share. I talked to some people

6 last year that are actually against hunting. The things are coming in now nationally is

the sniper rifle which is a different type of

9 a sniper rifle. But the one sniper rifle

0 that they're looking at right now is that any

rifle that can kill a person at a hundred

2 yards is a sniper rifle.

When you start banning those type guns

069


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(inaudible). They've also discussed right in

front of me about leasing land, paying

whatever it takes to lease land so nobody can

hunt on it.

Then we've also had groups that have come

down here through the past and started out

we're not anti-dog hunting. We just want

ethical hunting. Then we heard: Well, it'snot the right way to hunt deer anymore

0 (inaudible). Then we've had men dressed in

black hunting dogs on their property in the

2 middle of the night (inaudible) they're

killing all the quail.

4 So year before last, it was: Let's stop

all dog hunters.

6 MR. COLES: You've got about thirty

seconds. MR. JONES: I've got one minute.

9 I hope y'all can address some issues

0 especially the things that can be done in my

opinion right now (inaudible) y'all got out

2 that hunting enclosures is not fair taking in

the state of Alabama. If you want to have an

070

enclosure, fine. But if you did that, it

would make a lot of money on it.We should have a lottery for out of state

hunters. That would mean that they all

pitched in their ticket and bought a ticket

before and then you can draw out their names

there close to the season and let them hunt

and that would at least let us have the first

right to lease the land. The Education for

0 the public is not being done. And, again,

please don't run this stuff by public2 opinion.

The other thing is we've had complaints.

4 If we're going to stop a certain group of

hunting by complaints especially when they're

6 not verified or because we have illegal

hunters, then you're going to stop all

hunting because you have baiting. You have

9 poaching. You have spotlighting. And if


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0 that's the basis y'all are going to use to

stop people from hunting, you're going to

2 have to stop all of it.

MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

071

At each meeting, we alternate those that want

to speak for dog deer hunting and those who

want to speak in opposition. At thisparticular meeting, we will hear those in

opposition to dog hunting. And our first

speaker will be Jana Clark from Addison.

ROBIN: And I'm sorry about the

microphone. We turned the air up and now we

can -- I know a lot of y'all can't hear.

0 MS. CLARK: I'm Jana Clark.

2 (Whereupon, Board members and the court reporter indicated that the speaker could not

4 be heard. Adjustments to the microphone

system were made.)

6

MS. CLARK: I'm Jana Clark. I'm

from Addison, Alabama. I'm a landowner and

9 last year we received a restriction on dog

0 deer hunting and I would just like to thank

all of you who supported it. It was a lot2 better last year.

072

(Whereupon, Board members and the court

reporter indicated that the speaker could not

be heard. Adjustments to the microphone

system were made.)

MS. CLARK: Okay. My name is JanaClark and I'm from Winston County. And I'm a

landowner and a hunter. And last year we

received a restriction on dog hunting. And

0 I'd just like to thank you for your support

and tell you that last year was a lot better

2 than years past. Thank you.

MR. COLES: Next we'll hear from

4 Noble Holland. Coffee County.


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0 in Lamar County. We had substantiated

complaints countywide. The warden followed

2 up (inaudible) and we had four convictions.

I'm sure some of y'all have heard the same

4 story, different place. That's statewide,

same story, different face. But I would like

6 to truly thank each and every one of you for

the ban that we received in Lamar County. It's better. It truly makes a difference.

9 There are some renegades that are still

0 running and they are saying that they are

rabbit hunting. (inaudible) what anybody

2 else says about that. They are claiming that

they're rabbit hunting. There were

075

sixty-nine complaints in Macon County and

zero arrests. But with that being said, Iwant to thank you each one of you for making

things better.


Faye Thompson from Skipperville.

MS. THOMPSON: Good morning,

Commissioner Lawley and Board Members. We're

here today on behalf of Dale County

0 landowners (inaudible) vote to ban dogs in

the northeast corner of Dale County. We are2 looking forward to regaining control of our

property.

4 You are to be commended for the time and

effort donated so freely to help the citizens

6 of this state with their conservation and

material resource issues. Thank you.

MR. COLE: Next we'll hear from

9 James Dennison of Wetumpka.

0 MR. DENNISON: Well, I'm James Dennison from Wetumpka, Alabama. Can y'all

2 hear me?

All right. When I talk about deer

076

hunting and everything, I think it should be

let alone. If you want to shoot a three

point or above or a six, make it to each

individual.


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And I'm a dog hunter and I'll tell you

what. These people that comes up here on

these complaints, they should have a -- ain't

it a public record where they filed

complaints? Or so many people that, you

0 know, was convicted or something for

trespassing, talking, you know, about the

2 dogs or something. Could they do that and bring y'all the proof? Instead of coming

4 down here and -- well, I ain't got no proof

in my pocket either.

6 But if you wanted -- like I say, if they

want to shoot a three point or above on one

side, let them shoot. Don't make me have to

9 do that. It's hard for me to pick one that

0 might have one on the other side.

And I wanted to go to about the turkey2 hunting. Making the turkey hunter see a

half-inch spur. That would be pretty hard to

077

do, wouldn't it? You can't do it. But I

guess I'm through. Thank you.

MR. COLES: Next is Joy Grubbs from

Piedmont.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's passing.

MR. COLES: She's passing? Ourgood friend Mr. Wynnton Melton, Geneva,

Alabama.

MR. MELTON: Thank you. Always

0 good to be here. I have followed this Board

around for about thirty-five years now and I

2 must say this is the first place I've ever

been in where speed's considered to be a good

4 thing. But it's always interesting and you

learn a lot. I am Geneva County of6 representative Fleming Farm Hunter's Club

which is primarily a dog hunting club. We

also hunt (inaudible). Some black powder and

9 just all the methods but I have for these

0 many years being in support of hunting with

dogs regardless of the (inaudible) pursuing.

2 And I've seen a lot of the same things over

and over again.


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078

But, you know, all of the hullaboo that's

going on in England now. They did stop the

deer, the fox and the hare hunting in

England. And it's been just really really

hubaloo going on over there and arguing for

some time now, for several years. And, of

course, that's probably the oldesttraditional area for hunting with hounds that

we're familiar with.

0 However, it goes back to the Mesopotamian

era about seven thousand years ago and

2 (inaudible) Europeans brought their hounds

over and into this country. George

4 Washington, Thomas Jefferson. They were all

great hounders. It's a grand sport. It's

6 been there for many many years and I just want to see us continue all of the good hound

hunting sports.

9 Now we are under a permit system in

0 Geneva County which we voluntarily went to

and it helped with the -- we sat down with

2 all sides of the issue. Those that were

opposed to the dog deer hunting, those that

079

supported it and the middle mediator to tryto chisel out something that will work for

all of us and it's working fairly well.

(inaudible) a couple problems that are very

difficult to always have and that comes with

always having the dogs under control.

Intent needs to be laid somewhere some

way and the extent of the abuse needs to be

there some way because if you ever release a

0 hound, you're not sure what he's going to do. No matter how well trained he is, no matter

2 how disciplined you are, the dog can get away

and if a dog just rumbles up to somebody's

4 (inaudible) and they're anti and they're on a

crusade, they get the dog, they call the game

6 warden. You've got to go retrieve the dog.

And issues can come up because people are

very sensitive about their hunting dogs as


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9 they are about their land.

0 We talk about landowner. Everybody's a

landowner, well, representing all the various

2 sports (inaudible) as far as arguing back and

forth in Geneva County.

080

We had a hearing before the Commissioner

where there was an effort made to put it onthe ballot. We did a poll. I just don't

think that's the way to handle this issue.

But just as soon as they had the room, the

dog hunters we could put three thousand acres

of land right there. So dog hunters own

land. Non-dog hunters own land. All kind of

people own land. So it's not a fair decision

0 to make to give (inaudible).

In closing, just two observations. One2 is on quality deer management. I don't think

there's anybody that doesn't appreciate the

4 need for some type of deer management but I

can tell you this but I can't (inaudible) our

6 own views and observations in Geneva County.

Since the Oakman hunting, in other words,

the doe harvest year round, in our club,

9 we're (inaudible) what I consider to be

0 quality bucks. I consider that to be a full time buck deer six points or better as a

2 quality deer.

Just trying to raise the deer just to

081

raise the antlers as Don mentioned earlier

just where you can have something to put on

your wall to brag about both reduces the

value of the animal and reduces the value of

the sport down to nothing but money and egosand pride. And these are the things the

animal rights people the anti (inaudible)

more than any other one thing.

In our particular case, where we have

0 harvested more does, we are harvesting more

quality bucks. Quality bucks being again six

2 points or better. So the open harvest seems

to work better than the selective harvest to


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4 me. Just an observation of watching some

that have tried to put in the eight pointer

6 or better system.

They aren't killing any deer at all.

They have taken this thing so far that

9 they're afraid to shoot a deer, afraid

0 they'll offend their buddies, afraid they'll

offend anybody. Well, we're out there and2 we're killing the heck out of them and we're

killing more better deer every year.

082

So it seems to me that the open hunting

is working better in our days than the

selective harvesting.

One other thing that is neither here or

there. But isn't it great that we have

turkeys in Geneva County? We had no turkeysten years ago. Somebody said they saw a

turkey. Said: You're blind man. It's

another buck.

0 We had no turkeys. We have turkeys,

turkeys and more turkeys in Geneva County.

2 Great turkey hunting in Geneva County so if

y'all want to find a good place to go turkey

4 hunting, come on down to Geneva County and

we'll show you some turkeys that we thought6 were foreign animals just a few years ago.

Again, thank you for all that you do. We

hope that you will continue to hear all views

9 and all ideas and use profound judgement.

0 And always remember that everybody is against

something. Everybody is for something. Find

2 that middle ground but the best middle ground

is that which takes away the rights of

083nobody. Thank you.


Derrel Murkerson.

MR. MURKERSON: First of all, I'd

like to thank you very much for your time.

My name is Derrel Murkerson. I'm from

Calera, Alabama.

There's a couple of issues that I'd like


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to address. Number one, the reason that I

0 have this child with me, I provided you with

three pictures. In one of those pictures,

2 there's a cow horn spike that my

five-year-old killed the same weekend that

4 Don Knight's grandson killed his first deer.

If you're going to limit, what you're telling

6 me is these kids can not kill a deer (inaudible). I can say this.

I have children ranging from twenty-two

9 to three. I have dog hunted all my life. I

0 have deer hunted all my life. My father is

eighty years old with Alzheimers. I take him

2 so that he can still enjoy what he has left

on this earth.

084

The things that you're trying to imposeon people to do, the three point rule, we're

running into a problem. People talk about

statistics. I'm going to talk about reality.

I'm a retired police officer. I did accident

reconstruction. Is there anyone that has

ever seen a deer go through a car and kill an

incident child? That's an overwhelming

feeling.

0 If you're going to limit this, you're going to produce some problems. Who's going

2 to carry the liability? Is the State of

Alabama because the deer herd's too large?

4 Are we going to go into a point where we're

like Oak Mountain where the deer are dying

6 out?

We killed more deer this year in our club

-- and I believe you also saw the picture of

9 the twenty-four point that's laying on my dog0 box with her and I. That's one of the

biggest deer killed in this state.

2 We are doing everything we can to be

proper. And people that will not allow us to

085

manage ourselves and dictate to us where

we're voting citizens ourselves are not

ethical. Okay.


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overpopulation. We're going to be just like

087

what they're doing in Montgomery County.

We're going to paying our taxes to clear off

the edge of the