1 united states district court district of...
Post on 04-Sep-2020
4 Views
Preview:
TRANSCRIPT
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 1 of 155 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
File No. 15-mj-312 (BRT)
Saint Paul, Minnesota April 23, 2015
ADNAN ABDIHAMID FARAH (2) ZACHARIA YUSUF ABDURAHMAN (4) HANAD MUSTAFE MUSSE (5)
9:05 a.m.
GULED ALI OMAR (6),
Defendants.
BEFORE THE HONORABLE BECKY R. THORSON UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT MAGISTRATE JUDGE
(PRELIMINARY AND DETENTION HEARING)
APPEARANCES For the Plaintiff:
For Defendant Adnan Abdihamid Farah:
For Defendant Zacharia Yusuf Abdurahman:
For Defendant Hanad Mustafe Musse:
UNITED STATES ATTORNEY JOHN F. DOCHERTY, AUSA CHARLES J. KOVATS, JR., AUSA 300 South Fourth Street Suite 600 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55415
PAUL ENGH LAW OFFICE PAUL C. ENGH, ESQ. 220 South Sixth Street Suite 1225 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
FELHABER LARSON FENLON & VOGT PA JON M. HOPEMAN, ESQ. 220 South Sixth Street Suite 2200 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-4504
GASKINS BENNETT BIRRELL SCHUPP ANDREWS. BIRRELL, ESQ. 333 South Seventh Street Suite 3000 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 2 of 155 2
For Defendant Guled Ali Omar:
Court Reporter:
MITCHELL BRUDER & JOHNSON GLENN P. BRUDER, ESQ. 7505 Metro Boulevard Suite 325 Edina, Minnesota 55439
CARLA R. BEBAULT, RMR, CRR, FCRR Suite 146 U.S. Courthouse 316 North Robert Street Saint Paul, Minnesota 55101
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography; transcript produced by computer.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 3 of 155 3
I N D E X
SPECIAL AGENT HARRY SAMIT Direct Examination by Mr. Docherty Cross-Examination by Mr. Engh Cross-Examination by Mr. Bruder Cross-Examination by Mr. Hapeman Cross-Examination by Mr. Birrell Redirect Examination by Mr. Docherty Recross-Examination by Mr. Engh Recross-Examination by Mr. Bruder
GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBITS Exhibit 1 Exhibit 2 Exhibit 3
DEFENSE EXHIBITS Exhibit 1
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
PAGE 7
36 51 61 75 93
101 103
REC'D 15 15 15
79
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 4 of 155 4
P R O C E E D I N G S
IN OPEN COURT
THE COURT: Good morning, everyone. We are here
for preliminary hearings and detention hearings in the
matters entitled -- they all have the same main number here,
15-mj-312 (BRT). We have the United States of America
versus Adnan Farah, and that is matter 2 of the same case
number. We have United States of America versus Zacharia
Yusuf Abdurahman, and that is matter number 4. We have
United States of America versus Hanad Mustafe Musse, and
that is matter number 5. And we have United States of
America versus Guled Ali Omar, and that is matter number 6.
Let's begin with the appearances of counsel,
starting with the Government.
MR. DOCHERTY: Good morning, your Honor.
Assistant U.S. Attorneys John Docherty and Charles Kovats
for the United States.
THE COURT: Good morning.
MR. ENGH: Good morning, your Honor. Paul Engh on
behalf of Adnan Farah.
THE COURT: Good morning.
MR. ENGH: He is here as well.
THE COURT: Good morning, sir.
DEFENDANT FARAH: Good morning, your Honor.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 5 of 155 5
THE COURT: And for other Defendants, do we have
appearances of counsel, please.
MR. BIRRELL: Good morning, your Honor. Andy
Birrell appearing for Hanad Musse.
THE COURT: Good morning.
MR. HOPEMAN: Jon Hapeman representing Zacharia
Abdurahman who is present.
THE COURT: Good morning.
MR. BRUDER: Good morning, your Honor. My name is
Glenn Bruder. I'm appearing on behalf of Guled Ali Omar who
is standing to my right.
THE COURT: Good morning and good morning, sir.
DEFENDANT OMAR: Good morning.
THE COURT: Well, we have both the detention
hearings and the preliminary hearings. Counsel, have you
talked about how you would like to proceed today?
MR. DOCHERTY: We've not talked about that, your
Honor. However, we would be prepared to put on a witness to
talk about probable cause. And if the Court finds probable
cause, then to proceed to detention which the Government
would plan to do by proffer.
THE COURT: All right. Counsel for the
Defendants, any objection to that order?
MR. ENGH: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 6 of 155 6
So, Mr. Docherty, if you would please put on your
witness.
MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, your Honor. Before I do that,
one brief matter for the record. Since this case was
arrested over last weekend, there have been a number of
attempted contacts with people who the folks trying to make
the contact apparently believe are either the CHS mentioned
in the complaint or members of the CHS's family. There have
been phone calls, there have been very ugly statements made
on social media, including Twitter. And I am not accusing
any of the Defendants of having any part in this but I am
wanting to say in public that the people engaged in such
behavior ought to stop because this is behavior that will be
intently investigated by law enforcement and any meritorious
cases brought to the U.S. Attorney's Office will be
prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's proceed.
MR. DOCHERTY: I would call Special Agent Harry
Samit, your Honor.
hand.
THE COURT: Would you please raise your right
(Witness Samit sworn by the Court.)
SPECIAL AGENT SAMIT: I do.
THE COURT: You can put your hand down. Please
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 7 of 155 7
state your name and spell your last name for the record.
THE WITNESS: Special Agent Harry M. Samit,
S-A-M-I-T.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
And counsel, you may proceed.
MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. Good morning, Agent Samit.
A. Good morning, sir.
Q. Whereabouts do you work and what do you do there?
A. I'm employed as a Special Agent of the FBI. I work at
the FBI Building, 1501 Freeway Boulevard in Brooklyn Center,
Minnesota.
Q. How long have you been an FBI agent?
A. Sixteen years.
Q. And over the course of the 16 years that you have been
with the Bureau, what sorts of cases have you investigated
primarily?
A. Almost exclusively international terrorism matters.
Q. Have you always worked in Minneapolis or have you worked
in other offices as well?
A. Just Minneapolis.
Q. Are you familiar with the facts of the case that's got
us here in court this morning?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 8 of 155 8
A. I am.
Q. Could you take a moment and just explain to her Honor
how you got that familiarity?
A. Through working this investigation myself, conducting
interviews of witnesses, subjects, operating confidential
human sources and debriefing them, and through conversation
with colleagues who have also conducted similar activities.
Q. I want to begin, Agent Samit, by talking about the
organization that's mentioned in the complaint, ISIL, ISIS,
the Islamic State. Are you familiar with that organization?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are you also familiar, Agent Samit, with the process
by which the Secretary of State can designate an
organization as a foreign terrorist organization?
A. I am.
Q. Have you looked into the designation status of what I
will call, consistent with the complaint, ISIL?
A. I have, sir.
Q. And can you please tell us what you found about the
designation status of ISIL as a foreign terrorist
organization?
A. So the original designation of the organization that
we're referring to as ISIL occurred on October 15th, 2004
when the group al-Qaeda in Iraq or AQI was designated. That
group has existed largely in part and continued and evolved
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 9 of 155 9
today to the group we're calling ISIL. That group was
designated as a foreign terrorist organization in May of
2014.
Q. And that designation in May of 2014, and the designation
of October of 2004, does that mean that the designation has
been continuous?
A. It has, sir.
Q. The designation in May of 2014 was not intended to fill
any gap or anything like that in designation?
A. No, sir.
Q. I want to direct your attention, Agent Samit, to the
events of May the 28th of 2014. Was there something of
significance that happened in this case on that date?
A. There was, sir.
Q. And can you tell us what that was?
A. One of the Defendants in this case, a Mr. Abdullahi
Yusuf, attempted to depart the United States.
Q. You say "attempted to depart". So he wasn't allowed to
leave?
A. No, sir, he was not.
Q. Who stopped him?
A. The FBI.
Q. And where did they stop him?
A. At Minneapolis International Airport.
Q. Where was Mr. Yusuf on his way to on May the 28th of
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 10 of 155 1 o
2014?
A. His flight was manifested to Istanbul, Turkey; but
ultimately he was on his way to Syria to join ISIL.
Q. And Mr. Yusuf has now pleaded guilty before a District
Judge of this court; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he plead guilty to?
A. He pled guilty to one count of Title 18, Section 2339B,
which is Providing Material Support to a Designated
Terrorist Organization.
Q. At his guilty plea colloquy, are you familiar with what
he said to the judge that day?
A. I am, sir.
Q. And did he say which foreign terrorist organization he
was trying to provide support to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Which one?
A. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
Q. Or ISIL?
A. Or ISIL.
Q. Now the next day, May the 29th of 2014, did someone else
leave the Twin Cities bound for Istanbul, Turkey?
A. They did, another Defendant in this case, an Abdi Nur.
Q. And Abdi Nur, did he stop or did he get out?
A. He was successful in leaving the country.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 11 of 155 11
Q. Since -- were there connections between Abdi Nur, who
left on May 29th, and Abdullahi Yusuf, who tried to leave on
May 28th?
A. Yes, sir. Our investigation has revealed that they were
travelling together and there were extensive connections
between the two.
Q. And in particular, was there a particular car that was
used to transport Abdullahi Yusuf to a light rail station
near the airport?
A. There was a blue Volkswagen Jetta that was used for that
purpose, sir.
Q. Who does that car register to?
A. The car registers to an acquaintance of a family member
of Mr. Nur.
Q. And who was it that drove the car when Abdullahi Yusuf
was taken to the light rail station?
A. The person was not fully identified, but we believe it
was Mr. Nur, as our investigation indicated that he had
possession of the car during this time.
Q. Were there also telephone contacts between Mr. Nur and
Mr. Yusuf on the 28th of May, the day that Mr. Yusuf tried
to go to the airport?
A. Yes, sir, there were two contacts, one call to each
person by each other's phones.
Q. Since leaving the country, has Abdi Nur been active on
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 12 of 155 12
social media?
A. He has.
Q. Have you reviewed that social media?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And from that social media content, what can you say
about where Abdi Nur is and what he is doing there?
A. Mr. Nur was successful in reaching Syria, in joining
ISIL, and in acting on their behalf, on behalf of that
terrorist organization.
Q. Does he continue to do so as we stand here today?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was one of Mr. Nur's relatives -- I don't mean to say
only one, but did one in particular get upset and take some
action after Abdi Nur left?
A. Yes, sir, a close family member began travelling to
different destinations in the Twin Cities in an attempt to
find out what happened to Mr. Nur.
Q. Did she go to a particular mosque?
A. She did, sir. She visited Dar al-Farooq Masque in
Bloomington, Minnesota.
Q. Did she speak with someone there who is connected with
this case?
A. She did. She spoke with Defendant Mohamed Farah.
Q. He's not here today. He is still in California; is that
correct?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 13 of 155 13
A. Correct.
Q. Later did she go to the Farah home in the City of
Minneapolis?
A. She did.
Q. And did she speak there with anyone in connection with
this case?
A. She spoke with Defendant Adnan Farah, Mr. Mohamed
Farah's brother.
Q. Did Mr. Adnan Farah say anything to this relative of
Abdi Nur's about his safety and her safety?
A. Yes, sir. He cautioned the relative that if he was to
tell her what had happened, then they would be in danger.
Q. Did he say anything that -- and by "he" I mean Mr. Adnan
Farah -- say anything about the logistics of how young men
get from the Twin Cities to Syria to fight for ISIL?
A. Adnan Farah explained that when people were ready to
travel, the tickets just showed up. That they didn't
exactly know the departure dates or times.
Q. And in particular when you say they didn't exactly know
the departure dates or times, did Mr. Adnan Farah have an
example that he could give to Abdi Nur's relative?
A. Yes, sir. He specifically commented that he had not
known when Mr. Nur would be leaving, and that Mr. Nur did
not know when he, Adnan Farah, intended to leave.
Q. And is this person, Special Agent Samit, this relative
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 14 of 155 14
identified in the complaint as Witness 1?
A. That is Witness 1, yes, sir.
Q. Have you also in connection with this investigation seen
Adnan Farah's Facebook page?
A. I have.
Q. Are there photographs on that page that were of
particular interest to you?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, if I could approach the
witness, please?
THE COURT: You may. Have counsel for the Defense
seen the exhibits?
MR. DOCHERTY: They have, your Honor -
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. DOCHERTY: before the Court came in.
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. Special Agent Samit, I've just placed in front of you on
the witness stand three sheets of 8 and a half by 11 paper,
each one bearing a photograph. They are marked for
identification for this hearing as Government's 1, 2 and 3.
Would you just take a moment, make sure that those are
things you've seen before, and when you're ready to proceed,
indicate.
A. I'm ready, sir. I've seen them.
Q. And are these photographs that were taken from Adnan
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 15 of 155 15
Farah's Facebook page?
A. They are.
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, I would move, for
purposes of today's hearing only, Government's Exhibit 1, 2,
3.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. ENGH: No objection.
MR. HOPEMAN: No objection.
MR. BRUDER: No objection.
MR. BIRRELL: No objection.
THE COURT: Thank you. They will be received for
purposes of this hearing.
(Government's Exhibits 1, 2 and 3 received.)
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. Special Agent Samit, can you see on the screen beside
you?
A. I can.
Q. Do you recognize the individual in Government Exhibit
Number l?
A. I do, sir.
Q. Who is in Government Exhibit Number l?
A. That person's name is Anwar Awlaki.
Q. Who is Anwar Awlaki?
A. He is a U.S. born, now deceased since 2011, Islamic
cleric who spoke very aggressively and eloquently in favor
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 16 of 155 16
of violent jihad.
Q. Did Mr. al-Awlaki have a particular audience to whom he
pitched his entreaties?
A. Primarily to the English-speaking world because he was
American born.
THE REPORTER: Could you spell that name for me,
please?
THE WITNESS: First name is Anwar, A-N-W-A-R. And
last name Awlaqi, A-W-L-A-Q-I [sic].
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. And now showing you, Special Agent Samit, Government
Exhibit Number 2. Now, you testified at the beginning of
your testimony about your experiences with the FBI. Besides
being an investigator, have you had other duties with the
Bureau?
A. I have.
Q. And in particular are you or have you been a member of
the SWAT Team?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What role did you have on the SWAT Team?
A. One of my duties on the SWAT Team was as a sniper.
Q. And as a sniper on the SWAT Team, do you recognize
not the make and model -- but the variety of weapon that the
individual in Government's Exhibit 2 is holding?
A. Yes, sir. That's a large caliber sniper rifle.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 17 of 155 1 7
Q. What's that sort of thing used for?
A. For long-range precision shooting of targets.
Q. Now, looking at Government Exhibit 3, there's a
landscape there, but I would ask you to focus your attention
on the flag and the writing on the flag. In your time as an
international terrorism investigator, are you familiar with
that flag?
A. I am, sir.
Q. What is that flag?
A. That is the flag used by the Islamic State and by
violent jihadists in general.
Q. Have you familiarized yourself, Agent Samit, with Adnan
Farah's passport application in this case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When abouts did Adnan Farah apply for a passport?
A. Mr. Farah's passport application was on April 25th,
2014.
Q. On his application did he say where he intended to go
and when he intended to go?
A. He did. His timing would have been later that month or
the end of the next month in May of 2014, and his
destination was China.
Q. Were his parents interviewed as part of this
investigation?
A. They were, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 18 of 155 18
Q. Were they aware that their son had applied for a
passport?
A. They were not.
Q. Were they aware that their son had said that he wanted
to go to China?
A. They did not know that.
Q. Were they concerned when they realized this during the
course of law enforcement's interview of them?
A. Yes, sir, they were extremely concerned about that.
Q. What did they say about that?
A. They said that they were aware that youth in the
community were travelling to places like Somalia and Syria,
that it was dangerous, and that they feared that Mr. Farah,
Mr. Adnan Farah, might be engaged in that activity.
Q. And as a result of that what did they do?
A. They took his passport.
Q. Changing to a different Defendant, we're now up to about
April of 2014. I want to ask some questions now about
Mr. Guled Ali Omar. In late May of 2014, did he make an
effort to leave the country and go to Syria and join ISIL?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. How abouts -- how was he going to do that?
A. Mr. Omar's plan was to drive to California with two
other individuals. From there they would independently
they would separate and independently make their way out of
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 19 of 155 19
the country, and then ultimately to Syria.
Q. From Mexico?
A. From Mexico, yes, sir.
Q. You said he was going with two other people. Who were
those two other people?
A. One individual was Yusuf Jama. Shall I spell that?
Y-U-S-U-F, J-A-M-A. And another was the CHS, the
confidential human source.
Q. At that time was that person a confidential human source
for the FBI?
A. He was not.
Q. But since then that person has become a confidential
human source?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About when did the person become a confidential human
source?
A. In early 2015.
Q. Since that person became a confidential human source,
has the FBI paid him for his work in this case?
A. We have, sir.
Q. Can you tell us how much that person has been paid?
A. As of mid April of 2015, he's been paid $12,725.54.
Q. This plan to go to California with Mr. Guled Ali Omar,
Yusuf Jama, and the CHS, did they succeed in getting there?
A. No, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 20 of 155 20
Q. Why not?
A. Because on the date of departure when Mr. Jama arrived
at Mr. Omar's house, Mr. Omar's family figured out what they
were attempting to do and they, Mr. Omar's own family, put a
stop to the plot.
Q. Are you aware of Mr. Omar's family saying anything to
any law enforcement agency concerning this?
A. No.
Q. Before this trip, have you reviewed Mr. Guled Ali Omar's
bank activity before this attempted departure to California?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell her Honor, please, what you found in that
review?
A. Between the dates of May 8th and May 21st, Mr. Omar
emptied his federal student aid account, debit card account,
of $5,000. And then on May 23rd he emptied his personal
bank account of $1,200.
Q. So there's nothing left in either account?
A. Correct.
Q. Was Mr. Guled Ali Omar employed before this attempt to
go to California?
A. He was, sir.
Q. And has the FBI spoken with that employer?
A. We have.
Q. And was Mr. Guled Ali Omar showing up for work in late
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 21 of 155 21
May of 2014?
A. Beginning on May 17th Mr. Omar was no longer showing up
for work.
Q. After the family intervention stopped the trip, was
there redeposits into the bank accounts?
A. There was, sir. On May 29th, Mr. Omar redeposited
$5,500 into his personal account.
Q. Did Mr. Omar start going to work again?
A. He did. He resumed I believe the next day, May 30th.
Q. Turning to one of the other people on that trip, Yusuf
Jama, was he able eventually to make it to Syria?
A. Eventually, yes, sir.
Q. How did he do that?
A. Mr. Jama ultimately purchased a Greyhound bus ticket
from Minneapolis to JFK, to New York City. From there he
reached JFK and took a flight from John F. Kennedy Airport
to Turkey.
Q. When Abdi Nur went over to Turkey, did he phone home?
A. He did after his arrival, yes, sir.
Q. And was there caller ID on his family's phone back here
in Minnesota?
A. There was.
Q. And did the family record the number he was calling
from?
A. They recorded it and provided it to the FBI.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 22 of 155 22
Q. And after Yusuf Jama went over, did he also phone home?
A. He did.
Q. And did he also phone to a family phone that had Caller
ID on it?
A. He did.
Q. And did his family note that number?
A. They did, and provided it to the FBI.
Q. Have you compared those two numbers?
A. We have, and the numbers are the same.
Q. I'm going to move several months forward now to the 6th
of November of 2014. On that date, staying with Guled Ali
Omar, was there an attempt on his part to fly from here to
San Diego?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he allowed to take his flight?
A. No, sir, the FBI stopped Mr. Omar from taking that
flight.
Q. Was there anything unusual about the way that Mr. Omar
presented himself when he showed up for that domestic
flight?
A. The unusual thing about his presentation for that flight
was that he was carrying his U.S. passport for a domestic
flight.
Q. Later on did Guled Ali Omar have a conversation with the
CHS about this attempt to fly?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 23 of 155 2 3
A. He did, sir.
Q. In that conversation did Mr. Omar say anything about
what he had been trying to do that day on November 6th,
2014?
A. He indicated he was attempting to leave the United
States, and in fact he said he was trying to get out right
then and there.
Q. After he got turned around, did he make any telephone
calls?
A. He did.
Q. Who did he phone?
A. He called one of the co-conspirators that was attempting
to leave via Greyhound bus to JFK, Mr. Hanad Musse,
Defendant Hanad Musse.
Q. And following Mr. Omar being turned around and sent home
from the airport on November 6th, by midnight on November
6th, where were Defendants Zacharia Abdurahman, Hanad Musse,
Mohamed Farah, and Hamza Ahmed.
A. They were on Greyhound buses headed for New York City.
Q. And I mentioned Hamza Ahmed. Is that a name that is
familiar to you?
A. It is, sir.
Q. Has he been indicted?
A. He has.
Q. On November 8th in New York City, were there -- did the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 24 of 155 24
four people who had gone to New York purchase airline
tickets?
A. They did, sir.
Q. And concentrating on Hanad Musse and Zacharia
Abdurahman, the two who are here today, can you tell us what
their itinerary showed?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Musse and Mr. Abdurahman had tickets -
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I consult my notes
briefly?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. Agent Samit, would it help if I showed you a copy of the
complaint?
A. I have it actually, sir. So Mr. Musse and
Mr. Abdurahman had tickets booked from Minneapolis -- or
from JFK, pardon me -- to Athens, Greece.
Q. Were any of the four at JFK that day allowed to board
their flights?
A. No, sir.
Q. That was a bad question because one was actually on an
airplane and escorted off.
A. None were allowed to fly.
Q. None were allowed to depart?
A. Correct.
Q. Were three of them then interviewed in New York?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 25 of 155 25
A. They were.
Q. Was Mr. Musse interviewed in New York?
A. He was, sir.
Q. And what did he say about where he was going and why he
was going there?
A. Mr. Musse informed the agents in New York at JFK that he
planned to go to Greece to chill for vacation. He noted
that he had purchased his ticket just that morning. He did
not know anyone in Greece and had no reservations, no
lodging reservations, in the country.
Q. And how long on the itinerary that he had booked, how
long did he have in Greece?
A. Just three days to visit Greece.
Q. Was Mr. Abdurahman interviewed back here in Minneapolis?
A. He was, sir.
Q. And the same sort of question. What did he say about
where he was going and what he was going to do when he got
there?
A. He indicated -- Mr. Abdurahman indicated that he was
going to Greece for vacation, as well. He noted that he
didn't know anyone in the country either; and then that he
was going alone. During the course of his interview he
subsequently amended that answer, changed that answer to
indicate that he was going with Mr. Musse. He noted that he
was going on vacation just to see the sights, Roman
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 26 of 155 2 6
architecture and things of that nature.
Q. Did he say anything about ISIS?
A. He did. He made a comment, when agents pointed out to
him that his story was not consistent with what a normal
person does on vacation, he noted that if he was going to
join ISIS, he would have flown to Istanbul.
Q. Did all four of these Defendants return to the Twin
Cities?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And upon their return to the Twin Cities, did they begin
having discussions about how to get to Syria?
A. They did.
Q. Did the CHS join them in those discussion?
A. In approximately February of 2015 the CHS joined those
discussions.
Q. And Defendant Guled Ali Omar wasn't at JFK, correct?
A. He was not.
Q. Did he also join these discussions?
A. He did.
Q. And also, although not here today, did Mr. Abdurahman
Daud join these discussions?
A. He did.
Q. By this time the CHS is a CHS?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is tape recording these conversations?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 27 of 155 27
A. He is.
Q. Late in November, November the 25th of 2014, is there
something of significance that happened in this case?
A. November the 25th, yes, sir.
Q. And what happened that day?
A. Well --
Q. That's okay. We can circle back to that.
A. Well, I'm sorry. I was just consulting. So there was
an arrest made in the investigation that date.
Q. Okay. And who was arrested?
A. Mr. Abdullahi Yusuf.
Q. And did Mr. Yusuf's arrest have any effect on the people
that were talking about getting to Syria?
A. It did not diminish their interest in going to Syria,
no, sir.
Q. And then on November 19th of 2015 [sic] was there an
event of significance to the investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that?
A. Mr. Hamza Ahmed was indicted and then subsequently
arrested.
Q. And those conversations were going on by the time
Mr. Hamza Ahmed was indicted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did this do anything to diminish the zeal of the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 28 of 155 28
Defendants to get to Syria?
A. It did not.
Q. Did the Defendants have a plan to get to Syria?
A. They did.
Q. Can you describe that plan to her Honor, please?
A. Yes, sir. So the Defendants ultimately decided that
they needed to reach -- a more successful way to reach Syria
to exit the United States. And so their plan was to obtain
fake documents, false documents, and then cross over the
United States-Mexico border into Mexico; and then travel to
Turkey and then ultimately Syria via Mexico.
Q. Did Abdi Nur, the man who was in Syria, did he have
anything -- any role in this plan?
A. He did, sir.
Q. Could you describe his role, please?
A. Mr. Nur was communicating with a number of the
Defendants back here in the United States. And he indicated
to them that he had a contact in Mexico who could provide
them with fake documents, fake travel documents, and assist
them getting into Mexico; and then from Mexico onward to the
Islamic State.
Q. Did this plan work out?
A. It did not.
Q. And where did it fail?
A. Mr. Nur was never able to provide the Defendants with
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 29 of 155 2 9
his contact in Mexico.
Q. When Mr. Nur was unable to come through with a
connection for forged passports, did the CHS make a
suggestion to the Defendants?
A. He did.
Q. And was that done at the FBI's direction?
A. It was.
Q. What was that suggestion?
A. The CHS suggested that he himself might have a Mexico-
based source for false documents.
Q. How was that news taken by the Defendants?
A. Very enthusiastically.
Q. I'm going to for the next couple of minutes, Special
Agent Samit, just go through not so much chronologically as
we have been doing, but rather defendant by defendant in
these conversations about going to Syria. And I'm going to
begin, if I could, with Defendant Zacharia Abdurahman.
In the middle of March, did Mr. Abdurahman in a
tape-recorded conversation have something to say about the
time frame with which he wanted to get to Syria?
A. He did, sir. He said that he wanted to be in Syria
within the month.
Q. Did he say anything about what time was doing to him or
time was doing to the group?
A. He mentioned that time was killing us, referring to the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 30 of 155 30
group.
Q. As part of this plan was the CHS collecting passport
photos purportedly to be forwarded to his source in
California?
A. He was, sir.
Q. And on April 1st of 2015, did Mr. Abdurahman provide
anything to the CHS?
A. He provided the CHS a copy of a passport photograph of
himself for use in the fake passport.
Q. Did that passport eventually get sent to the purported
forger?
A. It did. The passport photograph?
Q. The passport photograph.
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. Well, actually on April the 3rd was there conversation
with Mr. Abdurahman?
A. Yes, sir, I'm sorry. Mr. Abdurahman actually requested
to have that photograph returned to him, so it was not sent.
Q. It was not. And when Mr. Abdurahman asked to get the
photograph back, was that because he no longer wanted to go
to Syria?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why did he say he wanted it back?
A. Mr. Abdurahman expressed concern to the CHS that the
number of people involved in the plot presented a security
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 31 of 155 31
risk. And so his concern was that they would be caught if
he travelled with the group.
Q. Turning now to Defendant Adnan Farah. On March the
16th -- well, let me back up. Are you familiar with your
experience with the FBI and with an Arabic term, word,
dunya?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you tell us what dunya means in English?
A. Dunya generally means worldly or of the earth, of this
earth.
Q. As opposed to?
A. Spiritual or heavenly.
THE REPORTER: Could you spell that for me,
please?
THE WITNESS: D-U-N-Y-A.
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. On the 16th of March was there a conversation between
Defendant Adnan Farah and the CHS in which the word dunya
was used?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Farah said to the CHS, Mr. Adnan Farah
said to the CHS, "It's dunya. There's nothing for me in
this world, bro."
Q. Did he also have any congratulations for the CHS that
day?
A. He was very happy that the CHS had come up with a source
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 32 of 155 32
for fraudulent passports for the group to use to travel.
Q. Moving forward a couple of weeks to March the 30th of
2015, was there a conversation between Adnan Farah and the
CHS, and did Adnan Farah on that day provide the CHS with
anything?
A. Yes, sir, he provided him with a photograph for his fake
passport.
Q. And did two other Defendants also provide passports
[sic] that day
A. They did.
Q. -- that are not here today?
A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. The passport -- the supposed passport forger was going
to need to be paid, correct?
A. He was.
Q. Did Adnan Farah provide any money to pay for his forged
passport?
A. On April 3rd Mr. Farah gave a down payment of $100 for
his passport. Mr. Adnan Farah did.
Q. And then two days later on April the 5th, did Adnan
Farah give someone else's photograph?
A. He did. He did. Mr. Farah provided an additional down
payment for -- or I'm sorry, a photograph -- Mr. Hanad
Musse's, Defendant Musse's photograph for his passport.
Q. And then lastly, two of the Defendants and the CHS left
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 33 of 155 33
for San Diego on the 17th of April; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And on that day, the date of departure, did Mr. Adnan
Farah learn something about whether he would be going or
not?
A. He did. He learned --
Q. Can you tell us what?
A. He learned that he would not be making the car trip with
that group, with Mr. Mohamed Farah with the CHS and with
Daud.
Q. Why was he not able to go?
A. He was unable to go because they had spoken with an ISIS
member in Syria and determined that the route that they
would be taking once they reached Syria was considerably
more involved and expensive than previously; and so the
decision had been made that there was not enough money for
all of them to travel.
Q. Did Mr. Adnan Farah tell the CHS about an alternate plan
that he had -- or excuse me, did someone tell the CHS about
an alternate plan that Adnan Farah had?
A. Yes, sir, the CHS learned that Mr. Adnan Farah had an
alternative plan. That he was planning on traveling to the
Horn of Africa, to east Africa, Somalia area, with his
father. While there, he would obtain a Somali passport and
then make his way to Syria via that route.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 34 of 155 34
Q. Turning now to Defendant Hanad Musse. You testified
already that Adnan Farah gave the CHS Hanad Musse's passport
photograph on the 5th of April. Several days later did
Mr. Musse ask for his photograph back?
A. He did. Well, he did not ask for his photograph back
but on April 8th he noted that he would no longer be
travelling with the group. He noted that he wasn't going to
go with the group because his father had confronted him and
asked if he was planning to leave the country. And so
Mr. Musse decided not to go.
Q. And so, again, were Mr. Musse's reasons for not going
related to not wanting to go to Syria anymore?
A. No, sir, he didn't want to go because he had been
caught, at least with that group.
Q. Is there any indication in anything that you've seen
that Hanad Musse's father called law enforcement after he
confronted his son about his plans to leave the country?
A. No, sir.
Q. And then lastly, Special Agent Samit, I want to spend
just a minute or two talking about the activities of
Defendant Guled Ali Omar. You testified earlier about this
conversation where Mr. Abdurahman said the time was killing
us and he wanted to leave within a month. Was Mr. Omar also
a participant in that conversation?
A. Yes, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 35 of 155 35
MR. DOCHERTY: Excuse me, your Honor. I'm just
finding myself in my notes here.
(Pause in proceedings.)
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. And who was it -- excuse me. Who was it that originally
told the CHS about the plan involving Abdi Nur and fake
passports?
A. That was Mr. Abdurahman.
Q. At some point did Mr. Omar also say that he did not wish
to continue with this particular group in getting to Syria?
A. He did, sir.
Q. And, again, did he do that because he no longer wanted
to go to Syria?
A. No.
Q. And about when was it that he said he no longer wished
to go with this particular group?
A. It would have been in March of 2015.
Q. And what reasons did he give for not wanting to continue
to participate?
A. He indicated that he didn't want to go anywhere with the
group that had been stopped by the FBI at JFK, at John F.
Kennedy Airport in New York. He said that he felt like
doing anything or going anywhere with them would have been
an automatic failure because of the law enforcement scrutiny
on them.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 36 of 155 3 6
Q. And then lastly, when was it that a vehicle left for San
Diego to pick up the forged passports, cross into Mexico and
get to Syria?
A. On April 17th, 2015.
Q. And who was in the car?
A. The CHS, Daud, and Mohamed Farah.
Q. And were those individuals arrested in San Diego?
A. They were.
moment?
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, could I have one
THE COURT: Yes.
(Pause in proceedings.)
MR. DOCHERTY: No further questions.
THE COURT: Thank you, counsel.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ENGH:
Q. Agent Samit, you're referring to several notes during
your testimony today?
A. I am, sir.
Q. Were the notes a part of the complaint, the 38-page
complaint, or are they separate from the complaint?
A. They are separate from the complaint, sir.
MR. ENGH: May I review those notes, your Honor?
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, I object to that. The
notes are to refresh the witness's memory. This is a long
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 37 of 155 37
and complicated complaint. The facts that he has are
extracted from the complaint. They are not separate. They
are not additional.
MR. ENGH: He has used his notes to refresh his
recollection. I'm entitled to see them. That's my view.
THE COURT: Well, I'll take that under
consideration and review that, but I'm not going to allow
you to look at them now.
MR. BIRRELL: For the record, your Honor, we ask
for those notes under the Jencks Act, 18 U.S. Code 3500, and
Rule 26 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
MR. HOPEMAN: On behalf of Zacharia Abdurahman I
request them as well. And I further cite Federal Rule of
Criminal Procedure 46(j) which says that the Jencks Act and
Rule 26(a) apply to a detention hearing.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. BRUDER: On behalf of Mr. Omar, I join in
that, your Honor, and add that the witness already testified
that he used those notes to refresh his recollection.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel. I'll take that
under advisement.
And, Counsel, if you could make sure for the
record you identify yourself, since we do have more than one
counsel here and more than one defendant, so that it's
clear. Thank you.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 38 of 155 38
MR. ENGH: The record should reflect that I'm Paul
Engh, E-N-G-H. I represent Adnan Farah. He's first listed
in the complaint so I'm going first.
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, could we approach on
the notes issue, please?
THE COURT: You may.
(Sidebar conference held on the record.)
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, as is often true, I
just needed a moment to get over my reflexively oppositional
nature. We'll show them the notes.
MR. ENGH: And maybe we can have a short break to
review the notes in a reasonable way?
MR. DOCHERTY: Sure. But, I mean, they are names
and dates from the complaint.
MR. ENGH: Well --
MR. DOCHERTY: That's fine.
THE COURT: We can take a short break.
MR. ENGH: Why don't we do that.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel. The Government
has withdrawn its objection to the review of the notes and
so we will take a short recess so Defense Counsel may review
the notes. We are in recess and I'm hoping this won't take
too long, but I want to give Defense Counsel the opportunity
to review what it seeks and what the Government doesn't
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 39 of 155 3 9
object to.
Thank you. We are in recess.
(Recess taken from 9:48 to 10:21 a.m.)
THE COURT: Thank you, everyone. Please be
seated. We are back on the record and thank you, everyone,
for your patience. I understand that the Defense Counsel
now has copies of the notes and, Counsel, are you prepared
to proceed now after having a chance to review the notes?
MR. ENGH: I am, your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
BY MR. ENGH:
Q. Agent Samit, your investigation has revealed with
respect to Adnan Farah that he lived at a residence on Van
White Memorial Boulevard; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In fact, you visited that household in May of 2014,
true?
A. I did.
Q. At that point in time you spoke with his parents; is
that right?
A. I did.
Q. And they willingly discussed their son or sons with you;
is that correct?
A. They discussed their son Adnan, yes, sir.
Q. And you learned from that interview and from your other
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 40 of 155 40
investigation that there are seven children in the family,
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this Mr. Adnan himself is 19 years old?
A. At the time I believe he was 18.
Q. Nineteen now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. A graduate from high school, correct?
A. He was not at the time.
Q. But he is now?
A. He is, yes, sir.
Q. And, of course, you did a criminal history check of the
family and found none with respect to my client, true?
A. Correct.
Q. And one of the reasons you were there at the household
that day is that you were aware that he had applied for a
passport, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On an expedited basis, as I understand it?
A. It was.
Q. And one of the places he wanted to see was China. Isn't
that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were curious as to why he wanted to go to China and
asked him parents about that, fair?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 41 of 155 41
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They indicated, or the father indicated, that he had
some old acquaintances of the family who may have been in
China as students; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you able to confirm that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you try to confirm that?
A. We didn't have enough information to begin to try to
confirm it. We didn't have a phone number. There was no
e-mail address. There was no way for us to confirm that.
Q. But you don't know either way whether he had an interest
in China because of these distant relatives?
A. I know what his father told me, sir, which is that he
doubted that his son was in conversation with those
acquaintances.
Q. Had he had a conversation with his son about those
acquaintances, though?
A. I don't know.
Q. You asked whether or not Adnan's behavior or demeanor
had changed during that same interview?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And by this time the parents, the mom and dad, were in
the same room with you?
A. They were.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 42 of 155 42
Q. And they indicated to you that his behavior had not
changed?
A. Correct.
Q. And to give us a context of the time, this was shortly
after Mr. Nur made it to Syria, fair enough?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The parents indicated as to their son and my client that
he was not particularly religious?
A. They did, sir, yes.
Q. That his plan was to get married and start a family?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You confirmed that, haven't you?
A. Well, what the father told me was -- or the mother, I'm
not sure which that they were concerned that that wasn't
really his plan.
Q. But he had indicated to them that he had a plan to be
married; is that right?
A. I don't know what he indicated to them, sir.
Q. Did you do an independent investigation to determine
whether he had a fiancee' or had proposed to someone?
A. No, sir.
Q. But what you did find out is that once this passport had
arrived at the residence where he lived, the parents had
taken it; isn't that right?
A. Yes, sir, they told me that.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 43 of 155 4 3
Q. So there was no question as to the identity of the
passport, where it was being sent, and the correct address.
Fair enough?
A. Fair enough, yes, sir.
Q. And unlike some of the other individuals that you have
described here, do you have any evidence that Mr. Adnan
Farah had travelled to New York City on a Greyhound bus?
A. No, sir.
Q. You had no evidence that he has ever been overseas?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have -- do you have any evidence that he had
ever gone to San Diego as the two other individuals in this
complaint have recently done?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you have any information of how he paid for that $300
expedited fee for his passport?
A. I do not.
Q. Was it cash?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Done on a credit card?
A. I don't know.
Q. He is a United States citizen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have any evidence that connects him with this
blue Jetta car that you discussed earlier in your testimony?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 44 of 155 4 4
A. No, sir.
Q. What you did tell us is that a witness, shortly after
Mr. Nur had disappeared, arrived at the Farah residence and
talked to both brothers; isn't that correct?
A. She arrived at the residence of both brothers. The
information we heard from the witness was that she spoke
with your client, sir.
Q. I wanted to ask you about that conversation. Was that
taped?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was that while the witness was cooperating with you or
did she relay that information thereafter?
A. She relayed it subsequent to the events. She was not
cooperating with us.
Q. Did she keep contemporaneous notes of that interview?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. When you indicate -- and you did indicate in direct
testimony and in the complaint, although you didn't sign it,
I know -- that the witness indicated Mr. Farah, my client,
told her that what happened -- if he told the witness what
happened, they would not be safe. Are you familiar with
that line?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That's not in quotations in the complaint but is that
close from your interviews with Witness l?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 45 of 155 4 5
A. I did not interview Witness 1; but from what my
colleagues who did inform me, that is very close to what
your client said to Witness Number 1.
Q. Who is "they" when the phrase "they would not be safe"
is mentioned?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. And what is the danger that was stated during this
interview with Witness 1 and my client?
A. I would have to assume it comes from the terrorist group
ISIL.
Q. Have you been able to confirm what the danger was?
A. No, sir. Your client hasn't participated in any
interviews.
Q. Did he mention anything else besides that they would not
be safe if he told the witness what happened?
A. He did.
Q. What else did he mention?
A. He also said that people who are travelling to Syria do
not know when they will be travelling. The travel
documents, the tickets, just show up. And that Mr. Nur -
he did not know when Mr. Nur had been scheduled to travel
and Mr. Nur did not know when he was scheduled to travel.
Q. Did the Witness 1 indicate anything else to you
regarding this conversation?
A. No.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 46 of 155 4 6
Q. Or have you sufficiently summarized it?
A. I think it's sufficiently summarized.
Q. So at this point in the investigation on -- shortly
after Mr. Nur disappeared, Mr. Farah did not himself have a
passport in his possession, right?
A. Correct.
Q. His parents had taken it away, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At this point in the investigation he had no fake
passport, right?
A. I don't know that, sir.
Q. He never -- well, did you ever find a fake passport?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have conducted various searches and seizures in the
case, I assume?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And besides the discussions of your CHS witness, do you
have any evidence that Mr. Farah had another passport at
all?
A. No, sir.
Q. You mentioned some pictures on Facebook, and one of them
is Exhibit Number 1. Fair enough?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long was that Facebook site of Mr. Farah inactive?
A. I don't know, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 47 of 155 4 7
Q. Do you know if it was active when you seized this
picture off it?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do you know who does?
A. One of my colleagues who was responsible for the online
portion of the investigation.
Q. And this picture of Mr. al-Awlaki is readily available
on the Internet. Fair enough?
A. Many photos of Mr. al-Awlaki are. I'm not familiar with
that one in particular.
Q. Well, they all look kind of the same.
A. Well, he looks the same in the various photographs, yes,
sir.
Q. In fact, his YouTubes are readily available as well on
the Internet; fair?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know when then Mr. Farah posted this picture of
Mr. Al-Awlaki on his website or his Facebook?
A. I do not, sir.
Q. And the same question could be asked about this
photograph of a sniper gun. Do you know when he posted
that?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know if he himself had posted that?
A. I do not.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 48 of 155 48
Q. It is possible that other people can post things on a
Facebook?
A. It is possible, yes, sir.
Q. And you haven't excluded that possibility?
A. We have not. However, sir, we should note it is your
client's Facebook page over which he has control.
Q. That's true.
A. And so he has the capability of removing things from it
should he not agree or should they be distasteful to him.
Q. I appreciate that. That wasn't my question, though.
The question was whether or not anyone else had access to
his Facebook.
A. I am not aware of that, sir.
Q. And the same question with Number 3, this flag from the
Islamic State. This is available on the Internet and can be
placed on anybody's Facebook?
A. Are you referring to this specific photograph?
Q. Yeah.
A. I don't know if it's widely available on the Internet or
not.
Q. You've seen pictures of this flag before?
A. Absolutely, sir. Pictures of that flag are certainly
available on the Internet. This specific picture I don't
know.
Q. And that's someone else in your office that did that,
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 49 of 155 4 9
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One of the things you asked the parents about is whether
or not their son had the ability to go to China in terms of
fiscal ability, fair enough?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he didn't have any ability to get to China, right?
A. Well, his parents replied that they didn't believe he
had the financial capabilities to get to China.
Q. Have you done an independent investigation of his bank
accounts?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. His credit cards?
Did he have access to funds at about the same time
he wanted to go to China in the spring of 2014?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Farah have any discussions with your CHS witness
that would suggest that it was his idea to buy a fake
passport from this witness?
A. No, sir. However, he did congratulate --
Q. Yes or no?
A. No, sir.
Q. In fact, he never got a fake passport; isn't that right?
A. That's correct. He never physically obtained it. He
did ask for one to be provided him.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 50 of 155 50
Q. Which your witness was never going to provide anyway,
right?
A. No, that's not true, sir. They were going to be
provided them immediately prior to arrest.
Q. And this is the same CHS that you've paid $12,000 to?
A. Correct, sir.
Q. Was it your idea, Agent Samit, to suggest a fake
passport to CHS who would then relay the suggestion to the
client of mine?
A. Was it my specific idea as one of the agents? No, sir.
Q. Was it the FBI's idea?
A. I'm sorry, could you --
Q. Was it the FBI's idea?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. ENGH: One moment, your Honor.
(Pause in proceedings.)
BY MR. ENGH:
Q. In your investigation, have you ever uncovered
communications sent to Mr. Farah indicating that he would be
going to Syria?
A. No, sir.
Q. Has he been the subject of wiretaps?
A. I'm not sure if he has specifically, sir. I don't know
the answer to that.
Q. I assume you've made every effort possible to trace
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR ( 651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 51 of 155 51
Mr. Nur in Syria in terms of what he's doing and his
communications; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you have any evidence of Mr. Nur's personal
communications to my client?
A. No.
Q. When was the last time that my client had contact with
Mr.Nurthen?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. You don't know if he ever did?
A. I don't.
MR. ENGH: No further questions.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
Would the Government like to do any redirect now
or should we have all of the Defense Counsel do
cross-examinations and then follow up that way?
MR. DOCHERTY: I would suggest the latter, your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Any other cross-examination?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
MR. BRUDER:
Q. Good morning, Agent Samson [sic]. My name is Glenn
Bruder and I represent Guled Ali Omar.
A. Good morning, Mr. Bruder.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 52 of 155 52
Q. Good morning. Your testimony began when you talked
about two individuals who are not part of this case.
Mr. Yusuf and Mr. Nur. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Yusuf has already been charged and pled guilty
in a separate matter, correct?
A. He has.
Q. And Mr. Nur, to the best of your knowledge, is presently
in Syria?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Nur successfully left the United States in May of
2014?
A. He did.
Q. And Mr. Yusuf attempted to leave the United States at
the same time?
A. Yes, sir, roughly the same time; a day before.
Q. And both were taking the same route, essentially. They
were travelling to Istanbul, I believe, from JFK in New
York, correct?
A. No, sir. They were travelling to Istanbul from
Minneapolis International Airport.
Q. Well, they have to change planes at Kennedy, don't they?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So the route was Minneapolis to New York to
Istanbul?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 53 of 155 53
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any evidence that Mr. Omar ever purchased an
airplane ticket from Minneapolis to New York and onto
Istanbul?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, I'd like to talk about this May 2014 incident.
That's the incident where my client was supposedly going to
be travelling to California by car, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were unaware of these travel plans at all until
your paid informant showed up at your office and told you
about it; is that correct?
A. It was not at our office, but until our CHS told us
that, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So until the paid informant came to you, you
didn't know about this at all?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And according to the information your paid informant
supplied you, did Mr. Omar rent the vehicle that was going
to be used?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. And the people who were involved, which included
your paid informant, were going to be travelling to San
Diego, correct?
A. I believe the CHS reported to California. He wasn't
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 54 of 155 54
specific to the city.
Q. Nothing inherently illegal about travelling to
California, correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. And in that particular instance, according to your
informant, Mr. Omar never even left Hennepin County.
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. You testified that the Government was aware, however,
that Mr. Omar attempted to fly to California in November of
2014?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe at that time he was flying to San Diego,
correct?
A. Yes, sir, correct.
Q. Tens of thousands of Minnesotans fly to San Diego from
Minnesota in the winter, correct?
A. I couldn't give you a number on that, sir. I'm sure
plenty do.
Q. In fact, I suspect you have taken winter vacations as
well, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And on that particular occasion, do you have any
evidence that Mr. Omar purchased any plane ticket other than
the one from Minneapolis to San Diego?
A. No, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 55 of 155 55
Q. And he purchased, I am assuming, since he was in your
mind travelling to Syria, he purchased only a one-way plane
ticket because he wasn't coming back to Minnesota?
A. No, sir, it was a round-trip ticket.
Q. Oh, okay. So he purchased a round-trip ticket to San
Diego and you have no evidence that he purchased any other
plane tickets, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you said that what was suspicious about his travel
was that he had his passport with him, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far is San Diego from Tijuana?
A. Very close. Right within minutes.
Q. And if somebody wants to visit Tijuana while they are in
San Diego, a passport would be useful, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nothing illegal about visiting Tijuana?
A. There is not.
Q. Okay. Now, I noticed when you were talking about other
Defendants you mentioned that when they were interviewed by
Government agencies they had kind of only a vague
description of what their plans were and where they were
travelling. Are you aware of any effort to interview
Mr. Omar about his travel plans to California?
A. Yes, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 56 of 155 5 6
Q. Okay. And did he indicate that he had hotel
reservations in California?
A. He did.
Q. Did you confirm whether he had those reservations or
not?
A. I don't know if those were confirmed by the case agent.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. Omar tell you that he give you the
names of people he was planning to visit in California?
A. I believe he did, yes, sir.
Q. And did you confirm whether in fact he was visiting
those people?
A. I don't know if the case agent did that, sir.
Q. Okay. So at this point you received an innocuous
explanation from Mr. Omar and you have no idea whether the
Government made any effort to confirm that information or
not?
A. On those two questions that you asked as to the hotel
reservations and the associates, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that your paid informant
offered you a different narrative for what my client's
purpose was in travelling to California, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you mentioned that your informant recorded his
conversations with Mr. Omar and others after he became
involved with your agency, correct?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 57 of 155 5 7
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he record all of his conversations with them?
A. No, sir.
Q. I see. So some of the conversations you have been
relating today are based solely on information provided to
you by your paid informant. There's no recording to verify
it?
A. Yes, sir. And in a small number of cases that is true.
Q. I'm assuming that -- well, let me put it this way. You
didn't just take all of the information that your paid
informant gave you and accept it as gospel. You did try to
explore whether he was being truthful?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And you conducted a broader investigation than
just relying on Mr. Paid Informant, right?
A. Absolutely, sir. Not only did we conduct a broader
investigation, but we took steps to confirm that what the
paid informant was telling us were true.
Q. Okay. And did you, for example, obtain any wiretaps,
specifically of Mr. Omar?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So you do have wiretaps of his phone
conversations?
A. Sir, I'm not exactly sure of what was covered by the
wiretaps. I'd have to check on that.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 58 of 155 58
Q. Okay. The reason I wonder is because in the complaint
there's not a single reference to any conversation involving
a wiretap in which my client admitted to anything.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I'm sure if there was, you would have put it in the
complaint, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, there was a discussion at some point in
which your paid informant came to you and said, Hey, these
guys are talking again about leaving for Syria, correct?
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. And that was sometime in early 2015? I believe you said
February 2015.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at some point you suggested to the informant that he
report that he had the ability to secure false passports,
correct?
A. We did.
Q. And that was, I assume, at least in part to gather
evidence and to gauge interest in these suspects in whether
they were really interested in travelling to Syria?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And again, focusing on my client, Mr. Omar, did he pay
Mr. Informant any money for a fake passport?
A. No, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 59 of 155 59
Q. Did my client, Mr. Omar, offer up any passport
photograph to be used as a fake passport?
A. He did not.
Q. And did he at this point in time make any flight
arrangements to New York or to Istanbul?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he withdraw any funds from his bank account?
Because that had been mentioned earlier.
A. I am not aware that he did, sir.
Q. Okay. And, in fact, he told your informant that he had
no interest at this point in going to Syria with the other
people who were coming forward with that
photographs and that money, correct?
those
A. Sir, what he said was he had no interest in travelling
with them.
Q. Was that, by the way, a recorded conversation?
A. Yes, sir, I believe so.
Q. Okay. And to the best of your recollection, the
statement that was specifically made by Mr. Omar is
reflected in the complaint. Is that correct?
A. It is.
Q. And do you have the complaint in front of you?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And if you would turn to page 26, the exact
statement that Mr. Omar made is, "I don't want to go
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 60 of 155 60
anywhere with them." Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then he termed any effort to travel with them "an
automatic failure," correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So at this point, just to clarify, you believe that
Mr. Omar was attempting to enlist the services of a
terrorist organization?
A. Yes, sir, ISIL.
Q. He never purchased a plane ticket outside the United
States?
A. Correct.
Q. His only travel plans that you were able to identify
were to California in the winter?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in this incident in May 2014, he never left Hennepin
County?
A. Correct.
Q. And you only discovered it because your paid informant
told you about it?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. BRUDER: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
/I/I/I/Ill///
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 61 of 155 61
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HOPEMAN:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Samit. I'm Jon Hapeman and I
represent Zacharia Abdurahman.
A. Good morning, Mr. Hapeman.
Q. Do you know much about my client's personal background?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are aware that he was born here in Minnesota and is
a U.S. citizen, aren't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that he is a high school graduate?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That he's never lived outside of Minnesota at all,
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he travelled once abroad with his mother when he was
11 years old to Sweden and Somalia, I think. Are you
familiar with that?
A. I believe his mother told me that, yes, sir.
Q. And he was living with his mother and about six brothers
and sisters at the time he was arrested, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, in fact, during the entire time of your
investigation, that's where he lived with them, right?
A. Correct.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 62 of 155 62
Q. And he is the oldest?
A. I don't know that for sure, sir.
Q. You were aware that he was -- he has worked numerous
part-time jobs over the last few years, weren't you?
A. More specifically over the last year we were aware of
where he worked.
Q. All right. And he worked most recently at night as a
security guard at the Harriet Tubman Shelter, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was in fact, as far as you know, a financial support
to his mother and brothers and sisters?
A. I don't know, sir. I don't know where his funds were
going.
Q. He was also attending school at Metro Technical and
Community College, I think is the name of it, right?
A. Minneapolis Community and Technical College.
Q. Yeah, whatever it is. You knew that, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And he has no criminal record at all, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Not even a misdemeanor, right?
A. Correct.
Q. He never did get a false passport, right?
A. He did not physically receive one, no, sir.
Q. He got a target letter in November of 2014
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
that you're
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 63 of 155 63
aware of, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he still he remained here between November of
2014 and April 2015 when he was arrested, right?
A. He did.
Q. I want to ask you some more specific questions about
this affidavit.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I want to know if you have examined a Facebook page for
Mr. Abdurahman?
A. I have not, no.
Q. Has anyone connected with the investigation done so?
A. I assume that that has happened. I can't state that
under oath.
Q. You don't know if there is one?
A. I don't know.
Q. In any event, you're unaware of any radical photographs
like the ones in Exhibits 1, 2, and 3 that are connected
with him, true?
A. I am not, sir, correct.
Q. Have you examined his bank records? I think you said a
little bit ago you knew nothing about his finances.
A. Yes, sir, someone in the FBI office has. The case agent
has. I have not certainly.
Q. Who is the case agent?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 64 of 155 64
A. I would have to check. I'm not sure.
Q. Is it the guy who signed this big affidavit?
A. Special Agent Marshall? No, sir.
Q. Okay. So do you know what the investigation of his bank
account showed?
A. No.
Q. I assume if it had showed suspicious activity, it would
have ended up in this affidavit, right?
A. Yes, sir, most likely.
Q. Now, you've talked about the November 8th attempt to get
on a flight from New York to Greece; and I want to know if
you have any detail as to what his plan was once he intended
to arrive in Greece.
A. Yes, sir, I have some detail because I interviewed your
client subsequent to that attempt.
Q. All right. He certainly didn't tell you what route he
was going to take to Syria, did he?
A. He did not.
Q. And he didn't tell you what means of travel he was going
to take to get to Syria, true?
A. Yes, sir. What he did say, though, is that if he was
going to Syria, he would fly to Istanbul.
Q. That's after an agent said that his story wasn't making
any sense, right?
A. Yes, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 65 of 155 65
Q. Did you determine at the time of the November 8 incident
in New York whether he had a significant amount of money
with him?
A. We did not, sir.
Q. Do you know who he was going to meet in Syria?
A. We do not.
Q. Now, paragraph 42 of the affidavit says that -- this
talks about the very subject we're on. It says: "When
later interviewed by agents in Minneapolis, Abdurahman
claimed he was travelling overseas alone for a vacation."
Did you interview him yourself?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did I understand that?
A. That's correct.
Q. Who else was with you?
A. Special Agent John Thomas and Special Agent Vydym
Vimetsky.
Q. What's the second -- the last one?
A. Vydym Vimetsky. V-Y-D-Y-M, V-I-M-E-T-S-K-Y.
Q. And so there was just that one interview, right?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. Paragraph 46 talks about agents reviewing phone tolls
that show links between Mr. Abdurahman and Mr. Ahmed on
November 5th and 6th.
A. Yes, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 66 of 155 66
Q. And it says that there were 25 text messages and phone
calls. I want to know, first, were the phone calls
intercepted or was it just determined that the calls were
A. I believe it was just a pen register, just that they
occurred. No content.
Q. All right. Have any of Mr. Abdurahman's phone calls
been intercepted?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. As for the 25 text messages, have you viewed them?
A. There would not be content with those either.
Q. Oh. So it was just determined that the contacts were
made?
A. Correct.
Q. And then it indicates that on November 6th -- between
November 6th and 8th, Mr. Abdurahman and Mr. Musse had 52
phone calls and 6 text messages. Is your answer the same
that you simply determined that the calls and messages were
sent?
A. Yes, sir, I believe that's true.
Q. You don't have any idea of content, right?
A. We do not.
Q. The affidavit talks about an examination of a Twitter
account belonging to Mr. Ahmed. This is in paragraph 49.
And it talks about hating the kuffars and the oppressors,
loving the Mumineen. "May this khilafa be the real
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 67 of 155 67
thing ... " I want to know if you have any evidence that
Mr. Abdurahman participated in that activity, those Tweets?
A. I do not, sir.
Q. Did he re-Tweet any of them that you know of?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Now, I want to know how it was determined that certain
conversations that the confidential human source had with
these young men were recorded and why others were not?
A. There are two reasons why the ones that were not
recorded were not. In the first case, before the
confidential human source had been fully developed, he was
not given recording equipment. And so it was early in his
operation as standard procedures, those weren't recorded
because he wasn't given that equipment yet.
In the second case, once he had been given
equipment, there would be technical reasons, either sound
quality -- so there would be recordings attempted but either
the equipment would fail or the sound quality would not be
sufficient to allow us to make out the recordings.
Q. Well, this guy lied to a U.S. Grand Jury about his
activities, didn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he lied twice to federal agents about his
activities, right?
A. Correct.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 68 of 155 68
Q. And so when you first began having him meet with these
young men, you weren't recording it?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. You were taking his word for what they said, right?
A. We were taking his word and we were taking other steps
to verify it.
Q. And some of the statements that the CHS says that they
made end up in this affidavit, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On page 22, paragraph 52, will you take a look at that?
It says that: "Beginning in February of 2015, the informant
was present for multiple conversations in which the
defendants discussed past efforts to leave the country as
well as their desire to again attempt to travel to Syria to
join ISIL."
Was this in February 2015 at a time when he was
working for the FBI?
A. It was, sir.
Q. Did he get any other benefits other than this 12,000 and
some dollars he has been given?
A. To date that's the only benefit he has received.
Q. Has anyone paid rent for him?
A. He's been provided money for expenses and services.
Specific to rent, he could certainly use that for that
purpose.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 69 of 155 69
Q. So the 12,000 was for his expenses and services?
A. Yes, sir, correct.
Q. Okay. Has he been relocated at FBI expense?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has he been given -- and is this on top of the $12,000?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has he been given any other benefits by the FBI such as
educational benefits, trips to the doctor, that sort of
thing?
A. No, sir, not that I am aware of.
Q. Is he in custody?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is he attended night and day by an FBI agent?
A. Ah, attended night and day, you mean constant?
Q. What I mean is, is he under constant observations by
agents? We had a case in the past in which that was the
case.
A. No, sir.
Q. So can you give me an account of what these multiple
conversations were between the informant and the Defendants
beginning in February 2015?
A. The informant, the confidential human source, reported
that the group that you see there, Mr. Omar, Mohamed Farah,
Adnan Farah, Mr. Daud, your client, sir, and Hanad Musse,
were again discussing plans to travel to Syria to join ISIL.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 70 of 155 7 o
Q. Do you have any detail?
A. In terms of?
Q. As to who said what when, about what subject?
A. No, sir.
Q. Does anyone in the FBI know who said what when, about
what subject in those conversations?
A. Yes, sir, the CHS was debriefed in great detail so the
persons that were speaking, that would have been documented
in a report who said what to the best of the CHS's
recollection.
Q. Thank you. Do you have any evidence that Mr. Abdurahman
was in contact with Abdi Nur, the man that you say joined
ISIL?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who was in contact with Abdi Nur?
A. Mr. Daud. And actually Mr. Abdurahman, based on
statements he made, may also have been in contact.
Q. Statement he made to whom?
A. Statements he made to the confidential human source.
Q. Please look at paragraph 56 which talks about the CHS
learning from members of the conspiracy that others were in
current contact with Nur.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Do you have any detail other than what
you've given me that Mr. Abdurahman was in contact with Nur?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 71 of 155 71
A. Yes, sir. Well, as you can see there in paragraph 56,
Mr. Abdurahman indicated what could be firsthand knowledge
for Mr. Nur. That Mr. Nur in fact had a contact able to
supply them passports and assistance in travelling to
Mexico.
Q. And was that recorded?
A. I do not know, sir.
Q. When was it?
A. When did that conversation occur?
Q. Yes. I can't tell from your affidavit. Not your
affidavit but the affidavit.
A. It looks like it would have been in early to mid March.
Q. You don't have any evidence of any communications by
telephone or text between Mr. Abdurahman and Mr. Nur, do
you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nor through any other communicative means?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. All right.
A. Just your client's reference that he was in touch with
him.
Q. Refer to paragraph 58, please. It speaks of the
recorded conversation in mid March of 2015?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Abdurahman told Mr. Omar and the CHS that time is
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 72 of 155 72
killing us and he wanted to leave for Syria in a month or
less, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that all he said?
A. No, I'm sure the conversation
Q. There's quotes around it. Is that exactly what he said?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I want to ask you about one of the pages of your
notes. As it was handed to me, it's the very last page.
And do you have the last page?
A. Well, I'm not sure what your last page would be. Could
you show me?
Q. Well, let's compare it so we're on the same last page.
Do you see that paragraph at the bottom that
refers to Abdurahman, 4-1?
A. Yes, sir, and it does refer to Mr. Abdurahman.
Q. Okay. Now, as I -- were any of these conversations
concerning the giving of the photograph to the informant or
the taking of the photograph back from the informant
recorded?
A. Yes, sir, I believe they were.
Q. Your note here says: "4-1 photo to CHS, 4-3 asks for it
back. No$." What does the "no$" mean?
A. It means that your client, although he provided the
photograph, did not ever provide the down payment for the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 73 of 155 7 3
passport to the CHS.
Q. All right. Would you please look at page 27 of this
affidavit, very top line starting on or about April 9, 2015?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That says he did provide the down payment of $100 for
Farah's passport. That's just a mistake, right?
A. No, sir, he did not provide money for his own passport
but your client did provide a hundred dollar down payment
for Mohamed Farah's passport. So it's not a mistake.
Q. What happened to that hundred dollars?
A. It was -- it went into the custody of the FBI. But it
was provided to allow Mr. Farah to obtain a fake passport.
Q. And was that according to the confidential human source?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that conversation recorded --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- in which the nature of the down payment was made?
Was it observed? Was the payment observed?
A. Observed by FBI?
Q. Agents.
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Abdurahman, however, never paid for a fake passport
for himself, right?
A. That is correct. He did not provide the down payment
for his own fake passport.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 74 of 155 74
Q. And forgive me if I asked you this already, but he
didn't obtain a false passport, right?
A. He did not. He never physically took possession of the
false passport.
Q. Well, no one ever offered it to him, right?
A. Well, he took the photo back.
Q. And didn't he say at the time, leave me alone, stay away
from me?
A. No, sir.
Q. And describing the trip to San Diego, Mr. Abdurahman was
not mentioned at all in connection with this trip. Do you
have any evidence, sir, that he had knowledge of the trip to
San Diego?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If he was going -- if he was not going via San Diego
himself, what was his plan?
A. I don't know what his alternative plan was. I know what
he didn't want to do, and that is he did not want to travel
with a large group. But I don't know what his specific
plans were.
Q. Have you recovered the substance of any text
communications by Mr. Abdurahman or any other communications
in which he makes comments about the Caliphate coming?
A. I do not believe so, no.
Q. Any photos of him posing with a weapon or a black flag
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 75 of 155 7 5
or anything like that?
A. No, sir.
Q. You can point to no time when he said he wanted to die
as a martyr, right?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. He never spoke of Anwar al-Awlaki, right?
A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
Q. He never spoke of Anwar al-Awlaki?
A. Anwar Awlaki?
Q. Yes, Anwar al-Awlaki.
A. Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
Q. And you have no evidence that in recent months
Mr. Abdurahman became more religious in his speech or dress
or habits, right?
A. Correct, sir.
MR. HOPEMAN: No more questions.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. HOPEMAN: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BIRRELL:
Q. Good morning, Agent Samit.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Andy Birrell. I represent Mr. Musse.
A. Hello, Mr. Birrell.
Q. So for some preliminaries, why aren't you -- you're not
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 76 of 155 7 6
the case agent?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you don't know who is?
A. Specific to
Q. Do you know who the case agent is?
A. Well, there's a variety of different investigations,
sir. I need to know --
Q. Well, in this case here, the one we're in court on.
A. Well, each subject has an individual case agent.
Q. Oh. Who is my client's case agent?
A. Mr. Musse's?
Q. Yeah.
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. But it's not you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why isn't the case agent here?
A. Case agent is attending to other matters, sir.
Q. What's that?
A. Investigative duties.
Q. Okay. But you don't know who it is?
A. I'd have to look on a list, sir. I don't know who it
lS.
Q. But you know he has other duties?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So do you know my client was born in St. Louis
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 77 of 155 7 7
Park?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know he's a United States citizen?
A. He is.
Q. You know he's never been arrested or charged with any
crime?
A. Until now you mean, sir?
Q. Until now, yes, that's exactly what I mean.
A. Until now he has not been arrested or charged with a
crime, yes, sir, you're correct.
Q. And when he was arrested, he was arrested Sunday about
noon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he didn't run away?
A. He did not.
Q. He didn't resist in any way?
A. I wasn't at his arrest scene but I understand he was
arrested without incident.
Q. He didn't give any false names or try to conceal his
identity?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where was he
A. I believe he
Q. Which was in
A. I'm not sure
arrested?
was arrested in a vehicle.
Minneapolis?
what city it was in. As I
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
said, I was on a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 78 of 155 7 8
different arrest team, sir.
Q. Okay. You know he is a full-time student at Minneapolis
Community Technical College?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know he graduated high school here in Minnesota?
A. He did.
Q. Do you know he was a good student?
A. I'm not familiar with his grades, sir. I don't know.
Q. You didn't investigate his academic record?
A. Personally, no, sir.
Q. Did someone else?
A. Yes, I'm sure they did.
Q. Who was that?
A. I would have to assume it was the case agent.
MR. BIRRELL: Could I have these marked, please?
If you could just mark them as one exhibit.
(Defense Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
THE WITNESS: And, sir, I've recalled the case
agent's name if you would like that.
MR. BIRRELL: We'll get to that in a minute.
If you could staple them together, whatever is
easier. Thank you very much.
BY MR. BIRRELL:
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1.
Do you recognize it?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 79 of 155 7 9
A. No, sir, I have not seen this before.
Q. Do you know what it is?
A. It looks like a 12th grade grade report.
Q. For?
A. For your client, sir.
MR. BIRRELL: Offer 1.
MR. DOCHERTY: For purposes of today, no
objection.
THE COURT: All right. It will be received for
purposes of today's hearing.
(Defense Exhibit 1 received in evidence.)
MR. BIRRELL: Thank you.
BY MR. BIRRELL:
Q. He is a good student, isn't he?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thank you. What's the case agent's name?
A. Daniel Skipper (phonetically spelled).
Q. Skipper?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is he out of Minneapolis?
A. He is.
Q. Thank you.
Was there any search conducted of any computer
associated with my client?
A. Not that I am aware of, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 80 of 155 80
Q. How about any Facebook examination?
A. If your client had a Facebook page and it was known to
us, it was certainly viewed, yes, sir.
Q. Did you -- you didn't view it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you hear anything back about what was on it?
A. I did not.
Q. Can we assume from that there was nothing interesting on
it?
A. I don't know that that would be a good assumption, no,
sir.
Q. Well, can we assume there was nothing on it about jihad
or going to Syria or flags or people with guns, that sort of
thing?
A. I can't assume that, sir. I don't know that.
Q. So you think someone might have seen that and not
mentioned it to you?
A. It's possible, yes, sir.
Q. And not put it in the affidavit that was filed in the
court here in support of probable cause?
A. It's possible, sir.
Q. It's possible. Do you think that happened really?
A. No.
Q. All right.
A. But in reply to your question, I don't know that that --
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 81 of 155 81
that there was absolutely no mention of jihad or black
flags.
Q. All right. We can be pretty sure if some FBI agent saw
that, it would be in the affidavit in support of the
complaint, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yeah. All right.
A. But, sir, not certain.
Q. I get it.
Were you present when Mr. Musse was interviewed in
New York City?
A. I was not, sir.
Q. Did you read some reports about that?
A. I did.
Q. Was he in custody?
A. It was a noncustodial interview.
Q. So he was free to leave at any time?
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. And where was he when he was free to leave at any time?
A. I don't know the exact location. Having spoken to the
agents who conducted the interview, I understood it was
right there in the terminal at JFK.
Q. So out in the public space there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who was conducting this interview where he was free
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 82 of 155 82
to go at any time?
A. Special Agents of the FBI from the New York Division.
Q. So how many were there there?
A. I don't know.
Q. All right. Did they give him a Miranda warning?
A. They did not.
Q. So from your perspective, he was not informed that he
was suspected of any crime; is that right?
A. I don't know that, sir. I don't know what the agents
told him. I wasn't present.
Q. Well, they didn't give him a Miranda warning, you said?
A. Right. So that would have indicated he was not in
custody. I don't know whether they informed him of whether
he was suspected of a crime or not.
Q. So you don't know what they told him; is that what
you're saying?
A. That's correct. I know more what they asked him, less
what they told him.
Q. What did they ask him?
A. They asked him where he was going, who he was travelling
with.
Q. What else did they ask him?
A. Questions about his travel.
Q. And this occurred, to your way of saying, in a public
space with some unknown number of FBI agents there; is that
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 83 of 155 83
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were there other agents there from other agencies?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Wouldn't it be a fairly typical circumstance that there
would be Homeland Security people there, too?
A. It's possible, sir.
Q. Would that be the customary way this would be handled?
A. I can't speak to the customary way it would be handled
at JFK. I can tell you how we would handle it in
Minneapolis, and on those occasions there are typically
representatives of the Transportation Safety Administration
there.
Q. Do they work for Homeland Security?
A. I believe so.
Q. All right. Do you think that there's probably one set
of rules in the United States about these sorts of matters
at airports or do you think there's lots of rules?
A. I don't know. I would assume that there are -- the
procedures vary by airport.
Q. All right. Do you know that my client lives with his
dad?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know his dad is a 14-year federal employee?
A. I do.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 84 of 155 84
Q. You know his dad is a citizen?
A. Yes, sir, I have spoken to his father.
Q. That was my next question. When did you speak with his
dad?
A. In November of 2014.
Q. And that was when Mr. Musse got a target letter from the
United States Attorney; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And what is a target letter, to your understanding?
A. A target letter informs the recipient that they are the
target of a federal investigation.
Q. In other words, that the federal prosecutor intends to
charge them with a crime. Is that -- or do you not agree
with that?
A. I do not agree. I would say that the federal prosecutor
has them under investigation. I don't think it speaks to
intentions to charge them.
Q. Well, it tells the person that they are a target of a
federal investigation which involves alleged violations of
the federal law, right?
A. Yes, sir, but it doesn't say anything in there about
intention to charge.
Q. It tells them that the Grand Jury is investigating their
conduct, right?
A. Yes, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 85 of 155 85
Q. And that the Grand Jury has the ability to charge them
with an offense, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that they are invited to appear if they want to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So a rational person reading that would probably think
they were going to get charged with a crime, wouldn't they?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. You don't know. Okay. Fair enough.
In any event, Mr. Musse got such a letter back in
November 2014, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now I want to turn your attention to this affidavit in
support of criminal complaint and arrest warrant. It's not
in evidence but everyone is talking about it. Were you
present or did you participate in the drafting of this?
A. No, sir. I was certainly present in the FBI space while
it was being drafted but I did not participate in its
drafting.
Q. So somebody else compiled this and presented it to the
Court and you saw it later?
A. Special Agent Marshall, yes, sir.
Q. Who is the person who signed the affidavit?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you've had a chance to review it, I'm sure?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 86 of 155 8 6
A. I have.
Q. Is there anything in it that you think isn't true or
correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. So the first place that my client is even
discussed is in paragraph 35; is that right? I mean, I
don't expect you would memorize the affidavit, but --
A. Thank you, sir.
Q. -- does that sound like a fair characterization?
A. Yes, it looks fair.
Q. And there's some paragraphs that discuss this business
in New York that you and I have talked about a little bit,
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then nothing happens for a while and then there's a
paragraph number 64 -- actually 63 and 64.
A. Just give me a second to catch up to you, sir.
Q. Sure, sure, take all the time you need.
A. When they copied these for you, they took them apart on
me so I'm just catching up. Okay. 63 and 64, yes, sir.
Q. This concerns this time in late March 2015 and early
April 2015 when there was a discussion with the CHS about
fake passports, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why do you call him a CHS instead of an informant? Is
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 87 of 155 87
there a reason?
A. That's the FBI term, a confidential human source.
Q. They used to call them confidential reliable informants?
A. Yes, sir. They have changed it a number of times since
I have been an agent, but the current vogue is CHS.
Q. So no special category. Just the current vernacular?
A. Correct, this is it.
Q. Okay. When you have a CHS such as this person, is there
a written contract of employment between this person and the
Government?
A. No, sir.
Q. How is the understanding developed or created about how
payments are going to be made and for what?
A. It varies CHS by CHS.
Q. Do you know about this particular CHS?
A. I do.
Q. Are you running this guy?
A. I am not. I am one of the co-cases and I have helped,
but I'm not the primary.
Q. Okay. So this person receives money and how is it
decided how much this person gets?
A. Typically based on the activities and expenses of the
CHS. The handling agents discuss it with the Supervisory
Special Agent of the squad and an agreement -- and the
Assistant U.S. Attorneys, and then an agreement on the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 88 of 155 88
amount is reached.
Q. Okay. So in this case this person is being paid
expenses; is that what they are getting?
A. Expenses and services both, sir.
Q. What does that mean, services?
A. Services involves the amount of money a person would
earn as a salary.
Q. Okay. So he's getting a salary. Is that
A. Services is the way we explain it, but --
Q. All right. Well, here's the question that I'm trying to
get at. Is this person's compensation somehow related to
job performance?
A. Yes.
Q. In what way?
A. If the confidential human source makes the meetings that
he is requested to go to by subjects, if he utilizes the
recording equipment correctly, if he reports accurately, if
he reports in a timely fashion, things like that.
Q. Is there any relationship between the number of people
charged with a crime and the person's compensation?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Okay. So it's sort of a task thing. You do this task,
you get some money?
A. Exactly, yes, sir.
Q. Is there a predetermined amount of money per task?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 89 of 155 8 9
A. Absolutely not.
Q. I don't know. So you just figure it out later or do you
figure it out ahead of time?
A. It depends on the situation.
Q. Well, suppose I'm working with this person and I want
him to go record a conversation with Mr. Hopeman's client.
Do we set up how much he's going to get for that before he
goes or after he goes?
A. It depends. Like I say, I mean, we're asking this young
person to involve himself with a group of defendants who are
planning to go join the most violent terrorist group in the
world. He is exposing himself to a certain degree of danger
as a -- and so the amount is decided based on that task, as
you said.
Q. All right. Well, to fairly present this, this person
that you're requesting to take money to get into danger was
involved in some sort of criminal conduct him or herself,
right?
A. Sir, I don't determine whether the conduct is criminal
or not.
Q. Well, if you look at footnote 20 in this affidavit here.
A. Yes, sir, I'm with you.
Q. It says that the CHS went to California in some failed
attempt to go overseas. Is that right?
A. No, sir. It says he attempted to go to California in a
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 90 of 155 90
failed attempt.
Q. All right. So that's criminal conduct, isn't it?
A. Sir, that would certainly rise to the level, travelling
to Syria. But, again, I don't determine whether it's
criminal.
Q. I get it.
A. I report those facts to the prosecutors.
Q. Well, it says here also that he denied to the FBI and on
two occasions to a Federal Grand Jury that he engaged in
criminal activity?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that wasn't true, was it?
A. I'm sorry. Are you saying the affidavit is not true?
Q. No, no, no. What the guy told you and told the Federal
Grand Jury were lies.
A. Yes, sir, correct.
Q. And he later admitted that?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Did he get prosecuted for that?
A. Not to date, sir, he has not been prosecuted.
Q. Is he going to be?
A. I don't know the answer to that, sir.
Q. Is there any promises to him about it?
A. Absolutely not.
Q. Is that part of his motivation to work with the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 91 of 155 91
Government?
A. I don't know what his motivation is, sir.
Q. Well, you know part of it is money. I'm wondering if
part of it is not being prosecuted.
A. I can tell you that no promises with regard to
prosecution have ever been made to him.
Q. Okay. Fair enough.
Now, going back to the paragraphs 63 and 64, what
happened was according -- and this -- just let me start with
this. Paragraphs 63 and 64 contain information that came
from this confidential human source, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And nowhere else?
A. Could you give me a second to review that just to make
sure?
Q. Sure.
A. Yeah. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. And it describes -- these two paragraphs discuss
conversations or occurrences that the CHS claims to have had
with three or four people?
A. Yes, sir, at least paragraph 63 does. The March 30th
conversation indicates more than one person was present.
Q. Well, and then 64 says: "On April 8th, 2015, Musse told
the CHS he would no longer travel with the group because his
father confronted him, asking him if he had plans to leave
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 92 of 155 92
the country."
A. Yes, sir. That doesn't indicate that there's more than
one person present with the CHS.
Q. All right. These conversations that are referenced in
63 and 64, were they recorded?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Okay. Now, after paragraph 64 where my client tells the
CHS -- well, actually he didn't tell them. Farah told
Musse -- Farah told the CHS -- no. Let's see what happened
here. Farah gave my guy's picture to the CHS, he says?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then on April 8th, 2015, my guy told the CHS he
didn't want to go travel?
A. Correct.
Q. He didn't say he was going to go some other way. He
just said he wasn't going to travel with the group because
his father confronted him and asked him if he had plans to
leave the country.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you listen to this?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you have a transcript of it somewhere?
A. Yes, sir, I assume we do.
Q. You don't have it with you?
A. I don't have it with me. You have all my notes that I
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 93 of 155 93
have with me.
Q. Fair enough.
MR. BIRRELL: Thank you, your Honor. I don't have
any other questions.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Any redirect by the Government?
MR. DOCHERTY: A bit, your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. Agent Samit, just a couple of things and I'll take these
up in the order in which the counsel came up.
Beginning with Mr. Engh and some questions he had
about his client Adnan Farah, there was an interchange
between you and Mr. Engh about the interview that you and
another agent had of Mr. Farah's parents, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You remember that back and forth?
A. I do.
Q. And Mr. Engh was asking you about the relatives, the
distant relatives that the Farah family apparently has in
China, correct?
A. Yes, sir. I believe they were associates, friends,
rather than relatives.
Q. Associates. Okay. Thank you for the clarification.
I just wasn't 100 percent clear. What did you say
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 94 of 155 94
about the closeness or lack of closeness of that
relationship and whether Mr. Engh's client Adnan Farah knew
these people as expressed to you by Adnan Farah's parents?
A. The parents said, when we asked them to think of anyone
that they could recall who might be a point of contact for
Adnan Farah in China, they said at a stretch or as a
stretch, we knew these friends from the Middle East
previously who have since relocated to China. The father
suggested that they might possibly have found each other or
been in touch through locating one another on the Internet,
although he didn't think that was the case as he himself had
lost touch with the parents and was no longer in contact
with them.
Q. Was there enough information provided for, say, a
consular officer from an American diplomatic post to go and
talk to these people?
A. No, sir. No names, no phone numbers, no e-mail
addresses of any kind.
Q. Mr. Engh also asked you about some statements where
Mr. Adnan Farah was planning to get married; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did his parents have a view about the likelihood of
him getting married?
A. They, based on the arrival of the passport and their
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 95 of 155 95
concern about youth from the Twin Cities travelling, they
were concerned that that wasn't going to happen.
Q. His parents took his U.S. passport, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The plan described in the last, say, third of the
criminal complaint involves forged passports, does it not?
A. It does.
Q. And you also testified that there was a backup plan that
Mr. Adnan Farah had, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did that involve a U.S. passport or the passport of some
other country?
A. At least the first leg would have involved his U.S.
passport, him travelling to the Horn of Africa. But then
the travel to Syria would have involved him obtaining a
third country passport, a Somali passport.
Q. And who was he going to go to the Horn of Africa with?
A. His father.
Q. And his father is the one who has his passport, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. There was also conversation between you and Mr. Engh
concerning Mr. Adnan Farah's behavior and so forth. At some
point in this interview did Mr. Farah, Adnan Farah, come
home?
A. He did.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 96 of 155 96
Q. Did he greet his parents?
A. He did.
Q. How did he do so?
A. He greeted them by shaking hands with them.
Q. Did he shake hands with you at first?
A. He did not. He turned his back on us.
Q. Did his parents speak to him about this?
A. They did.
Q. And then what did he do?
A. Then he came over somewhat reluctantly and shook hands
with the interviewing agents.
Q. Last question on Mr. Engh's client Adnan Farah. Whose
idea was it originally to go to Mexico, get forged
passports, and then travel from Mexico to Syria?
A. Mr. Abdurahman.
Q. It did not originate then with the CHS?
A. It did not.
Q. Turning to Guled Ali Omar, Mr. Bruder I think more than
once talked to you about people who had "never left Hennepin
County." Correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did they never leave Hennepin County?
A. I believe in the case that he was referring to it was
because Mr. Omar's family stopped them.
Q. And you know about this because the confidential
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 97 of 155 97
informant told you, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Not because the family told you?
A. No, there was no report to law enforcement by the
family.
Q. There was then some discussion between you and
Mr. Bruder concerning the November 6th, 2014 attempted trip
to San Diego, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the tens of thousands of Minnesotans who go there
every winter, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But later on was there a conversation between Guled Ali
Omar and the CHS in which the true nature of that attempt to
travel was revealed?
A. There was.
Q. And is that on tape?
A. It is.
Q. Is buying a round-trip ticket commonplace when people
are leaving the country and not intending to come back?
A. In my experience in this investigation it's 100 percent
consistent.
Q. Why is that?
A. For operational security, so that the traveler can
disguise his true intention, which is not to return. A one-
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 98 of 155 98
way ticket would be very alerting to law enforcement.
Q. Mr. Bruder also asked you isn't it true that he had
hotel reservations in San Diego and you said yes; and that
he was meeting friends in San Diego and you said yes. Were
those things, though, part of the conversation with the CHS
later?
A. Mr. Omar indicated that that was part of his deception
so that because he had experience with being stopped
before, he implemented -- he learned from that previous
experience and implemented countermeasures to law
enforcement by having reservations and people to lie for
him.
Q. And, in fact, is there a direct quote in the paragraph
53 of the affidavit where he says something along the lines
he had three friends lying for him so he could get into
Cali?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. "Cali" meaning California, we assume?
A. Correct.
Q. And then at several points throughout the
cross-examinations there was talk about the CHS. Can you
was there also surveillance used in this investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the surveillance pick up the CHS from time to time?
A. Many occasions.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 99 of 155 99
Q. Did the CHS always know that surveillance was there?
A. No.
Q. When the CHS comes back to the handling agent, does the
CHS make a report of what's been going on?
A. Yes, sir, every time.
Q. How is that compared, then, to the notes or the
reports of the surveillance agents?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And why is that done? Why is that comparison made?
A. As one means, only one means, but one important means of
verifying that the CHS is telling us the truth.
Q. So if he says that I was at this corner at this time and
surveillance sees him there at this time on that occasion,
there's some verification, correct?
A. And most importantly with the individuals he stated were
present, that was a very key way that we would verify it.
Q. All right. And were there other measures over and above
that that were taken? I mean, the implication in some of
the questions has been you have just relied on this person's
word.
A. Yes, sir, there were several other ways of verifying it.
Q. The CHS has in the past been untruthful, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he's been untruthful about the degree of his
involvement in this trip to California in May of 2014 with
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 100 of 155 100
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Yusuf Jama and Guled Ali Omar, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He didn't reveal how fully involved he was, correct?
A. He did not.
Q. And lied about that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And has since then, however, been either under
surveillance or have been using other means to verify the
veracity of what he is saying.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, in fact, tell us a little bit -- at the very
beginning there were some equipment issues; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those were ironed out, correct?
A. They were.
Q. And in particular, the paragraphs of the affidavit that
Mr. Birrell on behalf of Hanad Musse was asking you,
paragraphs 63 and 64?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Take your time.
A. Yes, sir, I'm there.
Q. Were those taped?
A. They were.
MR. DOCHERTY: Could I have one moment,
Honor, to consult with co-counsel?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
your
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 101 of 155 1 o 1
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT: Yes.
(Pause in proceedings.)
BY MR. DOCHERTY:
Q. Agent Samit, AUSA Kovats has reminded me of one thing I
meant to ask.
At a certain period in his cross-examination
Mr. Bruder was referring to the attempted trip to California
and kept referring to the CHS in 2014. Was the CHS a CHS in
2014?
A. No, sir.
MR. DOCHERTY: Nothing further at this time, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
Mr. Engh.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. ENGH:
Q. Agent Samit, you were asked questions about the entry of
Adnan Farah at the end of that interview at his parents'
house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what happened is that at 6:30 p.m. he came in the
back door of the house, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Greeted his parents and his family but didn't want to
greet you particularly. Fair enough?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 102 of 155 102
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A. Yes, sir, that's how it appeared.
Q. But his dad prevailed on him to shake your hands and he
eventually did, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Before this interview took place --
A. Sir, I would add his mother and father both prevailed
upon him.
Q. And he did so, right?
A. Yes, sir. After his parents yelled at him he did so.
Q. And he did shake your hand?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Before this interview took place on May
21st, 2014, had you had Adnan Farah under surveillance?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you had any FBI agent or other Government official
trailing him in a car?
A. Not that I am aware of, no, sir.
Q. On the issue of his marriage, the father did indicate
that the son, my client, had told him his plan was to get
married and have a family, fair enough?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
But the parents wanted him to finish college first?
Correct.
Common advice?
Yes, sir.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 103 of 155 103
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q. The advice you would give to your kids if they would
listen to it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And finally, this China piece, Agent Samit, the father
was unaware of whether or not his son had been in
with
A.
anyone else from China, fair enough?
He was.
MR. ENGH: Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Any other further cross from the
MR. BRUDER: Briefly, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BRUDER:
Defense
contact
side?
Q. Agent Samit -- first of all, I'm shorter than everybody
else. I'd like you to focus on your testimony regarding
surveillance as a means of testing your informant's
credibility. Obviously if you're relying on an unrecorded
conversation, there's nothing about your surveillance that's
going to tell you what was said. It may tell you who was
there; it's not going to tell you what was said, correct?
A. No, sir, not exactly. There have been occasions when
our surveillance teams have actually picked up portions of
conversations just because they are standing close by to the
subjects when they speak.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 104 of 155 104
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q. In this particular case?
A. In this investigation, yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
A. Now, it's by no means a reliable way of doing that. You
can't ensure that your physical surveillance team will
overhear most or even any of the conversation. But to your
question, no, that's not correct. Sometimes they overhear
what's being said.
Q. Do you know whether your surveillance team overheard any
of the unrecorded conversations from, say, March of this
year?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Now, drawing your attention back to the May 2014 trip to
California, first of all, I guess it was more like -- well,
they never went anywhere, but the May 2014 I don't know
what we'll call it. Just in May 2014, the meeting at
Mr. Omar's house between your informant and Mr. Omar and his
family, that wasn't under surveillance, was it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Because you didn't know anything about this incident,
correct?
A. We did not.
Q. Okay. And when you say that Mr. Omar decided not to go
simply because he was confronted by his family, you're
relying exclusively on what your informant told you?
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 105 of 155 105
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could be he decided not to go because he decided it was
a foolish idea?
A. It could be, yes, sir. I don't know what his motivation
was. I do know from a review of the CHS's report that
Mr. Omar's family intervened fairly dramatically.
Q. Okay. And is it possible that when your informant
testified in front of the grand jury that he didn't commit
any crime as a result of the May 2014 incident, he was
testifying truthfully because he really didn't think
anything happened?
A. I don't know what the CHS's motivation during testimony
was, sir.
questions.
you.
excused.
MR. BRUDER: Thank you. I have no further
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Hopeman?
MR. HOPEMAN: I have no more questions. Thank
MR. BIRRELL: No more questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Anything further?
MR. DOCHERTY: No, your Honor. The witness may be
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Special Agent.
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, the Government rests at
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 106 of 155 1 o 6
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
this time.
THE COURT: All right. Any other evidence from
the Defense side?
MR. ENGH: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Now moving to argument.
MR. HOPEMAN: I have a proffer. That's permitted
under the statute. I consider that evidence. You have a
proffer, too, right?
MR. ENGH: Well, I have a proffer on the detention
issue but not the probable cause issue.
MR. DOCHERTY: My understanding of the law, your
Honor, is that proffers are permissible on the detention
issue but not on the probable cause issue.
MR. HOPEMAN: Okay. I have no proffer on the
probable cause.
THE COURT: We're doing the probable cause right
now and we'll move onto the detention issue after this issue
is decided.
Any argument by counsel?
MR. DOCHERTY: Well, your Honor, it's a long
complaint and it's been a fairly long morning. I'm not
going to try and summarize it. I would be standing here for
quite some time. But all four Defendants are charged with
various terrorism-related offenses as listed in the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 107 of 155 107
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
complaint. All of them are charged in Count 1, Conspiring
to Provide Material Support to a Designated Foreign
Terrorist Organization; and then subsets are broken out with
Attempted Provision of Material Support to a Designated
Terrorist Organization.
The complaint lays this out in considerable
detail. It's a quite long, quite detailed complaint. And
Special Agent Samit's testimony this morning has confirmed
that complaint. The probable cause finding that the Court
made when it chose to sign the complaint is not one that
needs to be revisited and probable cause is there. The
Court, we respectfully submit, should so find.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. ENGH: Your Honor, this is a slim case. I
draw the distinction between thinking about something and
actually doing the conduct. I mean, this is a thought-type
complaint. It may be true that there are conversations
about going to Syria. It may be true that there are
discussions about perhaps getting passports. But my client
never really did anything. I mean, you can -- in our
country, for better or for worse, you can think all of these
bad things. You can think about killing somebody; but if
you never do it, then you haven't committed a crime.
This is a thought-based prosecution where he may
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 108 of 155 1 o 8
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
be thinking of going to Syria but he never does anything to
get there. And the only person who is really suggesting and
actively promoting the trip, as far as I can tell, is the
CHS who is asking for money and who is proposing to give him
a false passport. But that's the Government's idea. That's
the Government's conduct and not his own. He never went
anywhere. There's no way he could get anywhere. He had no
money to be anybody. He is unemployed.
And in terms of his Facebook; you know, several
terrorism cases have gone by now that I've worked on and
I've seen this al-Awlaki picture in every case. It's over
the Internet, it's on the YouTubes, and his face is
ubiquitous. It doesn't mean you're going to follow him
anymore than, you know, if you have a picture of Hitler on
your website, heaven forbid that you're a fan of Hitler, or
anything like that. We have a First Amendment right to post
things on Facebook, for better or for worse; and listen to
things that may be offensive, for better or for worse. But
that's all that shows.
And I know that the complaint is long and I know
that you were the judge who signed it and reviewed it
carefully, but nonetheless, it's really skinny. You should
consider dismissing this.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. BRUDER: Your Honor, to the best of my
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 109 of 155 1 o 9
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
knowledge, what one thinks in this country isn't a crime.
Whether one acts on it is what makes it a crime. And let's
focus on that as we look at the complaint specifically with
relation to my client, Guled Ali Omar.
The complaint mentions an incident that occurred
in May 2014. I think it's obvious that the Government is
relying solely on the narrative provided by its paid
informant in characterizing my client's participation in
that activity. But at most, at most, most favorably to the
Government it suggests that Mr. Omar had an affinity and a
sympathy for a terrorist organization. That he thought
about going to San Diego, perhaps to explore the possibility
of doing something to help that organization. And he got no
further than his driveway when he turned around, took his
bag, and walked back into his parents' house.
There's no overt act. There's no conspiracy.
There's no effort to provide assistance to a terrorist
organization. There's a vague idea from a person barely out
of his teens that he might have sympathy for a political
cause, and then he does nothing to further that. It's not a
crime.
Then we go to November 2014. My client wants to
travel to San Diego in the winter. That's not a crime.
Actually it suggests that he was rational. He provides the
Government with an explanation of his activities.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 110 of 155 110
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The Government apparently doesn't even bother to
explore or investigate that explanation. He's got hotel
reservations, he's got a round-trip airplane ticket. The
Government's only notion of suspicious activity is that my
client is carrying his passport with him. Again, something
that makes sense if one is going to be visiting Tijuana,
which is literally directly adjacent to the San Diego border
and is in a different country. There is no evidence that my
client explored, pursued, or tried to purchase an airplane
ticket anywhere outside the United States in that incident.
Then we go to the activities in the spring of 2015
where my client doesn't bite at the informant's bait.
Doesn't offer him any money for this forged passport.
Doesn't offer him up a photograph to have a forged passport
made. And in fact, according to the complaint itself, tells
the Government I'm not interested in going along with these
guys.
So we have three incidents, one of which my client
never gets out of his driveway; one of which he refuses to
participate; and the third incident where he actually does
purchase a ticket to California, the Government doesn't
bother to investigate because they simply take their snitch
at his word.
Again, your Honor, that's not sufficient evidence
to move forward at this point. It's, as Mr. Engh put it,
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 111 of 155 111
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
too thin.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. HOPEMAN: Your Honor, I adopt the arguments
that Mr. Engh and Mr. Bruder made because I think they are
applicable to my client. I would just add that I'm looking
at the charges and they have alleged and they have to show
probable cause to believe that these men attempted or
conspired to provide material support to the Islamic State
in Iraq and the Levant knowing that it was a designated
foreign terrorist organization and that the organization had
engaged in terrorist activity.
And there's almost no connection here between
Mr. Abdurahman and ISIS or ISIL or terrorist activity.
Almost none. They have no contact between him and Abdi Nur,
the young man who did succeed in going to Syria and whom
they, without corroboration, say is fighting for ISIS or
ISIL. There's no contact between him and my client.
It's not against the law to go to Syria. It may
be a stupid idea but it's not against the law. And they
have to make that connection between the Islamic State and
the state of mind of my client and they haven't done it.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. BIRRELL: Well, your Honor, having had three
good lawyers argue in front of me, I think most of what they
say applies to everyone.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 112 of 155 112
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Also, your Honor, I understand that the Court is
the issuing magistrate here, but of course there's much more
information available to the Court now because we've had the
testimony of Agent Samit. And I think in evaluating my
client in particular, his testimony is very important.
Because in order to find probable cause, you should
assessing probable cause, I think you should assess who
you're looking at.
or in
And what you're looking at here is a 19-year-old
kid who is a good student. I provided the Court with the
records. He's never been arrested or charged with any other
crime. He lives with his dad. And when confronted by the
police with the target letter, he didn't go anywhere. He
didn't try to flee. He didn't try to get out of town, the
country, anywhere. He stayed here to deal with this.
When he was arrested over this past weekend, he
gave his correct name. He didn't try to run. He didn't
resist the police officers in any way. And perhaps most
importantly what the Court should evaluate in evaluating
Mr. Musse are the paragraphs 63 and 64 in the complaint,
because Mr. Musse told the confidential human source that he
wasn't going to travel with the group because he talked to
his dad who had asked him if he had any plans to leave the
country.
So apparently the CHS is acting in a clandestine
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 113 of 155 113
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
undercover way. So as far as Mr. Musse could have known,
he's just a person. He's not a Government agent. And he
told him I'm not doing this. I'm not going. And that's not
a person who is involved in a criminal conspiracy, your
Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
Anything further from the Government?
MR. DOCHERTY: Yes. And knowing now what Defense
Counsels' arguments are, I think I can provide more focus in
what I'm about to say.
Mr. Engh's argument was basically that Adnan Farah
didn't do anything and that's demonstratively untrue. He
gave money to the CHS for forged passports. He not only
gave his own passport photograph to the CHS, he gave
Mr. Musse's photograph to the CHS.
He tried to -- he had conversations with Witness 1
where he revealed -- the Abdi Nur relative where he
revealed knowledge of how people travel to Syria in order to
join a terrorist organization. That the money and the
tickets just show up.
And in answer -- anticipating a little bit
Mr. Hopeman's point, no, it's not against the law to go to
Syria. It's awfully dumb to go to Syria, but it's not
against the law. But Mr. Adnan Farah went a little bit
further when he said that if he told Witness 1 what was
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 114 of 155 114
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
going on, it would be dangerous for both of them. So
Mr. Farah, Adnan Farah, certainly did do something.
And I will also -- it doesn't apply in this case
but also point out that in the 2339B conspiracy, the
agreement itself is the crime. It is not a statute that
requires an overt act.
I also disagree with Mr. Engh's suggestion to this
Court that the passports were all the Government's idea.
The passports were in fact the Defendants' ideas. And when
it was Mr. Nur who could not come through with a connection
in southern California or Mexico, the CHS substituted
himself. But the CHS adopted the Defendants' pre-existing
passport plan.
As to Guled Ali Omar, on November 6th of 2014, I
may have missed it but at no point in Mr. Bruder's argument
to this Court did I hear any mention that the conversation
later between the CHS and Mr. Omar was tape recorded. And
that in that conversation Mr. Omar admitted on tape that the
things that Mr. Bruder emphasizes, the hotel reservations,
the friends, etcetera, were described by Mr. Omar as ways to
throw the Government off his trail and not to get caught up
as he had been caught up in the past.
When we talk about -- maybe a minor point -- but
when we talk about taking the CHS at his word for the May of
2014 matter, it needs to be borne in mind that at that point
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 115 of 155 115
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
he was not that CHS in May of 2014. He was still a member
of this conspiracy. He had not had his change of heart yet.
To the extent that Mr. Hopeman and Mr. Birrell
have adopted the arguments of Mr. Engh and Mr. Bruder, I
believe that I have addressed them. Mr. Hopeman's one
additional point was about knowledge either of the Islamic
State's designation or that it engages or has engaged in
terrorism or terrorist activity. I do not believe that it
would be possible for someone not to know, in today's world,
the sort of organization, the sort of brutal organization
that ISIS/ISIL is at this time.
The standard here is probable cause. The
complaint met that standard. Nothing this morning has
changed the fact that the complaint meets that standard. I
respectfully ask that the Court find that there is probable
cause to bind all Defendants over on the charges in the
complaint to District Court for further proceedings.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Anything further from the Defense?
MR. HOPEMAN: Your Honor, may we take a break?
THE COURT: Well, it might be best for us to
continue -- do you need to take a break to confer or
prepare?
MR. HOPEMAN: My client needs to take a break.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 116 of 155 116
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
argument
THE COURT: Pardon?
MR. HOPEMAN: My client needs to take a break.
THE COURT: All right. Will you have further
coming back?
MR. HOPEMAN: On probable cause?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. HOPEMAN: No, I will not.
THE COURT: Any other Defendant?
MR. BIRRELL: No, your Honor.
MR. BRUDER: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, then, I will make my ruling.
I find that there is probable cause to believe
that a crime was committed and that the persons before the
Court committed a crime, and that relates to each one of the
Defendants.
Looking at Defendant Mohamed Abdihamid Farah
[sic], Defendant Zacharia Yusuf Abdurahman, Hanad Mustafe
Musse, and Guled Ali Omar, I find probable cause to go
forward with each of those cases.
We'll take a break for lunch, return and handle
the detention hearings. We'll come back at 1 o'clock.
(Recess taken from 12:00 to 1:05 p.m.)
THE COURT: We are back on the record in the
matter number 15-mj-312 (BRT). And we are here to handle
the detention hearings with the four Defendants. Would the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 117 of 155 11 7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Government please state its position with regard to
detention and recommendation on how to move forward with
each of the four detention hearings for the Defendants.
MR. DOCHERTY: Yes, your Honor. Your Honor, the
Government is persisting in its motion for detention as to
all four Defendants consistent with the recommendation of
Pretrial Services in each of the four cases.
Your Honor, the Court has now found probable cause
to believe that each of these Defendants has violated 18 USC
2339B. That particular statute has a maximum term of
imprisonment, and that particular statute is also listed at
18 U.S.C. Section 2332B(g) (5) (B), which is a statute that
gives a listing of various Federal terrorism statutes.
Because the crime with which the Defendants are
charged is on that list and because it has a maximum term of
imprisonment of ten years or more, a rebuttable presumption
in favor of detention arises under 18 U.S.C. Section
3142E (3) .
Similarly, with probable cause, the Government
would ask to have the opportunity to respond to the
particular arguments that Defense Counsel make. At this
point, however, the Government's view is that the rebuttable
presumption has arisen and that it is now -- a limited
burden of production has been placed upon the Defendants to
come forward with evidence seeking to rebut that
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 118 of 155 118
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
presumption.
However, even if the Defendants do so, the
presumption would remain as a factor, as the Sixth Circuit
has said in a case called United States versus Stone, 608 F.
3d 939, at page 945, a 2010 case, the presumption remains as
a factor because it is not simply an evidentiary tool
designed for the courts. Instead the presumption reflects
Congress's substantive judgment that particular classes of
offenders should ordinarily be detained before trial.
The Government premises its detention motion both
on risk of flight. All of these young men have attempted to
or have conspired -- have either attempted or conspired or
both, to leave the United States and go and join a foreign
terrorist organization in Syria.
The danger to the community is not just a danger
to be felt by people in Syria. It is also, as we have seen
this morning and in the pages of the complaint, a danger to
be felt here in Minnesota as people who go to Syria such as
Abdi Nur reach back into Minnesota and further ISIL's goals
by communicating with people here in Minnesota such as these
Defendants.
It's also -- our motion is also premised on risk
of flight. We have heard a good deal of evidence about
people attempting to leave the United States, some of them
multiple times; or conspiring to leave the United States
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 119 of 155 119
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
surreptitiously with forged passports across the Mexican
border, by taking busses to JFK, by slipping out to San
Diego, one thing after another.
So on both of those grounds, your Honor, the
Government moves for detention of all four Defendants in
this case pending trial, and asks for the opportunity to
address the Court in a more focused manner as to each
Defendant's particular arguments, whatever they may be.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Counsel.
MR. DOCHERTY: Thank you.
MR. ENGH: Paul Engh on behalf of Mr. Farah.
We have a proffer of evidence, your Honor. And
then I would, after doing that, reach the arguments on the
matter.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
MR. ENGH: If called to testify, the Defendant's
father, Abdihamid Yusuf -- would you stand up, please?
THE COURT: Hello, Mr. Yusuf.
MR. ENGH: He would answer the following
questions. He would outline the children of the family,
their ages. How the Defendant is 19. Where they live in
Minneapolis. And he would most importantly say that he is
willing to assume the custodial status and the supervisory
role and making sure that his son is at home under
Electronic Home Monitoring, preferred. That he would assure
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 120 of 155 120
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
the Court that the son would be supervised at all times, if
not by him but then by his wife.
He would also indicate that there are at least 15
members of the extended family of the Defendant in the
courtroom so that the Defendant can show the Court that he
has enormous community support, which is very unusual in a
federal case. But that would be the sum and substance of
his testimony and I would proffer that testimony on that
basis.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. ENGH: Now, to get to the with respect to
the Government's arguments, it seems to the Defense that the
bond report, in all due respect, is rather vacuous. It
doesn't list any kind of factors that the Court should
consider. All it says essentially is that because the
Defendant, Mr. Farah, is charged with a terrorism-based
offense, he should be detained.
The report and the Government's position here is
an example of what I would term the "ipsis dixit fallacy in
law." That the argument for detention is basically
assertion of a fact; and because of that fact, something
else must follow from that fact, even though it doesn't
necessarily.
The fallacy in this case is because the Defendant
is charged with a terrorism offense, therefore he should be
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 121 of 155 121
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
detained, you could switch the argument around and say the
Defendant should be detained because he is charged with a
terrorism offense. There is no argument behind the
assertion. All it is is a fact that he has been charged by
the Government and therefore, because of that fact, he
should be detained. There's a circularity, in other words,
between what he has been charged with and their detention
argument.
The fact remains, though, that in our district in
front of different magistrates individuals like Mr. Farah
have not been detained on terrorism-related offenses. And
so what has happened to others, and what you should consider
today, is that they have been subject to lesser restrictive
alternatives with a great deal of success. Some have been
placed in halfway houses. Some have been placed at their
own homes. Some have been placed at a family member's
apartment. Some have been placed on Electronic Home
Monitoring. And all of them have done very well. And all
of them were charged with terrorism-related offenses.
So the weight of the allegation itself does not
mandate, in our view, a sense that this Defendant or any of
the other Defendants are inherently dangerous or that they
are going to flee or that they are going to go to Syria or
that they are going to send mail to somebody. The fact
remains he never went anywhere. He didn't do anything.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 122 of 155 122
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
So there are other alternatives available to you.
You should consider them, especially given the fact on any
other case a 19 year old with a clean record and family
support in the community, which is extraordinary, would be
granted bail. There is no question about it.
And so those factors in our view overweigh the
Government's point of view that this fellow is inherently
dangerous. If he were inherently dangerous, quite frankly,
you would see indicia of violence all through his life. If
he were a nihilistic guy willing to wage jihad, you would
see manifestations of that already. Because in criminal law
we see dysfunction between 15, 14, 13 years of age which
reaches fruition when you're 19. He has none of that. So
he should be released either to his father or to a halfway
house.
The alternative, frankly, is rather abysmal.
Because what's going to happen if you place him back in
Sherburne County is that they will put him in solitary
confinement and leave him be for months at a time. That's
what they do if no bail is granted.
And I would cite to the Court, and I would be
happy to supply you the literature on this, that the
isolation of a young man who is 19 can lead to
extraordinarily bad results in terms of depression,
posttraumatic stress. And the nature of sitting in a cell
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 123 of 155 123
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23 hours a day is more harmful than placing him in a house
or a halfway house or even in the general population. And
despite the literature that we have for young men like this
fellow, 19 years old, as to the harms of solitary
confinement, we still do it and the marshals still do it and
Sherburne County still do it because they've got this fat
federal contract.
And if you don't release him, that's what he's
going to do. He is going to be in a little room all day
long by himself and he's going to be harmed. And there's no
question he's going to be harmed. And then to what end? To
what end? You should consider the lesser restrictive
alternatives.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. BRUDER: Good afternoon, your Honor.
During the recess I had an opportunity to speak to
approximately 12 members of my client's family who are here
today. In selecting an offer of proof, I had a lot to
choose from but I would put forth this:
His adult sister Hodan, H-0-D-A-N, Omar, O-M-A-R,
is here today and she would testify that she lived with my
client together with her mother and her extended family
until the time of his arrest and that he is welcome to
return to the home. And she individually, and the family
collectively, would assume responsibility for assuring that
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 124 of 155 12 4
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
he meets whatever restrictions this Court were to establish
on his behavior, whether it's electronic monitoring or
regular and frequent contact with his probation officer; and
she would accept responsibility for transporting him for any
visits that the Court requires.
That said, your Honor, the majority of what I'm
going to focus on today is in the report that you've
received, which admittedly recommends detention, and I will
address the elephant in the room. If Mr. Omar was charged
with any crime other than the one that he is charged with
this report would almost certainly recommend that he be
released on an unsecured bond with minimal conditions.
Why would it do that? Well, first of all, because
he has lengthy ties to the community, one of the
considerations that by statute the Court is required to
consider. He has a stable housing situation, yet another
consideration the Court is required to consider. He has
stable employment for the past four years. He has
significant family support. And yet another statutory
consideration, he has no criminal record. None at all.
He's 20 years old. He was charged with one offense which
was dismissed, and it was a minor offense at that.
If he were anywhere else, or I should say if he
were charged with any other crime, there is no question that
he would be released. He has nothing other than the simple
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 125 of 155 125
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
fact that the Government has chosen to charge him with this
particular crime which weighs in favor of detention. And in
fact the report is relatively honest about that. It
essentially says, Well, because of the crime, I'm
recommending detention.
The other items that are recommended -- that are
referenced in the report are, to say the least, innocuous.
He has a possible eating disorder. Well, if he does, your
Honor, I'm not aware of any basis for believing that that
warrants detention, yet that's the other item cited in the
report is his possible untreated eating disorder. And
frankly, your Honor, if we want Mr. Omar to be eating in a
healthy fashion, I would suggest that a jail is the worst
place we would put him. So it seems nonsensical to me.
I would echo Mr. Engh's comments. My client told
me that he has spent the last several days in the Ramsey
County Jail where he's been denied basically any access to
other people or, more importantly, to basic hygiene. He has
not yet been able to take a shower or given basic
toiletries. He's not been able to have any contact with his
family members or contact with the outside world. He's
essentially being held incommunicado. I, frankly, wasn't
even able to track him down until this morning at the
federal courthouse.
So given the fact that not only doesn't he have
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 126 of 155 12 6
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
any criminal history, but in the reams of reports that the
Government has sifted through in preparing its affidavit in
support of the complaint, one thing was shockingly absent:
Any evidence, any allegation, that Mr. Omar made a specific
threat to a particular individual; that Mr. Omar has access
to weapons or was seen in possession of weapons; that he has
a history of weapons use or offenses; that he has threatened
anyone in this community. It's just not there.
There simply isn't the basis by which this Court
could conclude that there is no combination of restrictions
that would guarantee the safety of the community. The Court
can require Electronic Home Monitoring. The Court can
require -- can place him in a halfway house. The Court can
do a lot of things that would assure the safety of the
community and still allow the release of Mr. Omar.
And I would point out that I know that at least
one of the individuals that was mentioned in court today as
sort of a precursor of this investigation, Mr. Yusuf, as I
understand it, even though he has pled guilty, is in a
halfway house while he awaits sentencing, without a problem.
There's no reason to believe that Mr. Omar would pose any
greater problem. For that reason, your Honor, we'd ask the
Court release him with reasonable conditions.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. HOPEMAN: Your Honor, Jon Hopeman speaking for
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 127 of 155 127
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Zacharia Abdurahman.
I visited him Tuesday morning at Sherburne County
and he was brought from solitary confinement, where he
remains. When they brought him in to meet with me, his
hands were shackled to a belt at his waist and his feet
were, in turn, shackled to that belt; and he shuffled along
like someone who had been convicted of three homicides,
which is the only other time in my many years of visiting
jails that I have seen someone shackled like that.
I want to tell the Court a little more about him
and his family because I think those are highly important
facts here that the Pretrial Services people weren't able to
cover. And I make this proffer. This is the testimony that
his father Yusuf Abdurahman, who is here today, and his
oldest sister, Ikraan, I-K-R-A-A-N, Abdurahman, would give.
The father and mother are separated. The father
lives at 1827 LaSalle South, just south of downtown. And
the mother has lived in the same home since 2009 or 2010,
and she lives with all of the children including
Mr. Abdurahman. He's never lived anywhere else than with
his mother.
The other children in the household are Ikraan, a
17-year-old female; an then an 18-year-old male, a
13-year-old female, a 15-year-old male, 11-year-old female,
and 7-year-old male.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 128 of 155 128
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The mother also works. I believe she's a school
bus driver, if I have that right. And the father works at
Head Start, and he is fluent in Af-Maay and Af-Maha, two
Somali languages, as well as French. And he interprets at
Head Start for whomever needs it. And then he also
volunteers at homeless shelters to render interpreting
services as well.
The father is willing and able to take him into
the home. The father is able to monitor him. I asked the
father, Well, what about the time you're at work. He said,
Well, they could use an electronic bracelet. That would
work fine. Mr. Docherty is going to stand up here and say
that the electronic bracelet isn't foolproof, and that's
true. But the standard, your Honor, is that the Court has
to be reasonably assured of his return to court and
reasonably assured that the community safety will be
protected. The Court doesn't have to feel that that's
guaranteed.
It's felt by the family that the mom had too many
responsibilities and too many people to account for and it
will work better to monitor Zacharia Abdurahman at home. He
has high respect for his father. They see each other once a
week, in any event.
They would also testify that as Somalis, when they
move about Minneapolis-St. Paul, even though large numbers
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 129 of 155 129
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
of them have been here since about 1991, they frequently
suffer verbal attacks upon them because they look different
and they speak different and they are culturally different.
People will cast insults at them from cars and people
passing by; and not just intoxicated people. And this has
happened to Mr. Abdurahman many, many, many times.
And my point is that in all those times he has
never responded or retaliated in any way, even though he's a
large, athletic, basketball-playing 19-year-old guy who
could certainly protect himself, he has never cast even a
violent look in anyone's direction.
He graduated from Heritage High School in 2013 and
he has been for the past two years at the community college
where he's currently, according to his sister, taking a
course in composition, one in world politics and one in
intercultural communication.
He completed an intense one-year internship at
Hennepin County Medical Center through a program called
Genesis Work where he learned the ins and outs of the
computer system as applied to health care applications in
the hospital, and he did very well there. He's done many,
many different jobs. The Court heard this morning that he
does work at Harriet Tubman and his support financially is
critical to the family. And not only does he support his
mother, but he helps tide his father over in hard times.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 130 of 155 130
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
His father has to pay a significant amount of child support
and doesn't always have the money to do what he needs to do
for himself and Zacharia is the person who has been able to
supplement the family's income.
He has a passport. He has had a passport since he
was little. The family always had passports for the kids
and for the mother and father. And the reason was that they
had relatives in Somalia and wanted to be able to visit them
in the need of an emergency, in the event of a funeral, in
the event that somebody got sick. He has a passport. I
have it with me today. We can turn it in. It was issued in
2013.
There's no evidence that he applied for an
expedited passport. He's had it in his possession for
nearly two years now. It has no travel stamps on it
whatsoever.
I need to talk about his character. I've said
that he's peaceful. He doesn't like arguments and he's very
sympathetic with his mother and he spends a lot of time with
the younger siblings in the household taking them skating,
taking them to restaurants when he has the money, and
generally shepherding them through life. All of these
people are here today, his brothers, his sisters, his
mother, his father, his cousins, aunts and uncles, in this
room and in the room next door. And they love him and they
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 131 of 155 131
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
can reasonably assure that he will appear in court.
He helps his mother cook. She works, comes home a
little late. He gets the dinner set up for the kids. Then
when -- after he serves dinner, he goes off to work at
Harriet Tubman at about 9 o'clock. He uses his mother's
van. He doesn't have his own car. He gets financial aid to
go to school. He does help keep the car in repair. He's
never used drugs. No mental problems, psychiatric problems,
physical problems, none.
He has donated, according to his father,
significant amounts of money to poor relations of his that
live in places like Kenya who have not been able to get into
this country.
He is engaged to a young woman who is 18 years old
named Muuna Ali (phonetically spelled). I think her last
name is in the bond report. And the two families have
spoken, and he has spoken to her father, and there's an
engagement. And it has been decided that when each of them
completes a community college degree there will be a
marriage. She lives here with her grandmother. The father
is in Africa but the father in Africa has blessed the
relationship and so there will be a wedding in his future.
The father has written five children's books for
Somali children. They have no such developed written
curriculum for Somali children. He's trying to develop one.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 132 of 155 132
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
And the father has advised that he would have testified that
Zacharia and he were trying to convert this into a
successful business enterprise and to sell these texts all
over the country. The dad created a commercial website and
they had the intention of trying to get this going. They
fell short of capital.
Has there been changes in his behavior or dress or
habits or worship? None. None at all. He wears a hoodie
and sweatpants and a baseball cap to school. The only time
he wears traditional dress is Friday when he goes to the
mosque.
He is fluent in English. That's his first
language. He understands Af-Maha, but he is not an
efficient, fluent user of it. He can read a little Arabic
but very little. It's Quranic Arabic for purposes of
studying the Quran.
Now, that's who he is. And I know I've taken
maybe a little too much time, but I had to convey to the
Court that's who he is. And he's as connected to this
community as anyone in this courthouse is. This is his
community. He's not going anywhere. He's not going
anywhere, your Honor. And so I respectfully request that
the Court consider placing him with his father on a
bracelet; or, if the Court feels a little more stringent
conditions are necessary, place him in a halfway house. I
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 133 of 155 133
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
think you can place him in a halfway house on a bracelet,
too.
But this Sherburne County experience is brutal.
It's hard to describe it unless you see it firsthand. It's
brutal. And he should be given some freedom to be out and
about in the community and to help me get ready for his
trial. It's very difficult to do that when your client is
locked up and it's a SO-minute drive one way.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. BIRRELL: Your Honor, I'd like to begin as
Mr. Docherty did by talking about the law a little bit.
There is a presumption in a case described in 3142(f) that
detention is appropriate, which is what Mr. Docherty said.
But the presumption has been interpreted as shifting only
the burden of production and not the burden of persuasion to
the Defendant. The burden of persuasion remains with the
Government. And this burden of production requires only the
Defendant to produce some credible evidence. The Defendant
does not need to show that he is not guilty to rebut the
presumption. And once the Defendant rebuts the presumption
with production of any evidence, the burden of proof remains
on the Government to prove the risk of flight or danger to
the community by clear and convincing evidence. And that
the Court instruct us to -- instruct this Court to make the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 134 of 155 134
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
decision about that by looking at the 3142(g) factors. And
when you look at those factors as applied to Mr. Musse, this
presumption of detention is overcome, badly overcome.
One of the factors is criminal history. What is
the Defendant's criminal history? Mr. Musse has no criminal
history. The Special Agent Samit testified here this
morning, and I believe the bond report also says, he's never
been arrested before this. Certainly never been convicted
of any crime. So that factor weighs in favor of Mr. Musse.
The next factor is record of appearance at court
proceedings. Well, he hasn't had any other court
proceedings. What they are looking for, of course, is a
history of failure to appear, and there is no such history
of failure to appear and so that factor weighs in
Mr. Musse's favor as well.
The next thing the statute tells us to look at is
history relating to drug or alcohol abuse. And there is no
evidence before the Court, and in fact the bond report says
that there's no known history or current concerns relating
to mental health, counseling, treatment, or psychiatric
care. Additionally, the Defendant reported no past or
present use of illegal substances, alcohol, or treatment for
the same. So the evidence before the Court is that there is
no history relating to drug or alcohol abuse as to Mr. Musse
and that factor weighs in his favor, too.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 135 of 155 135
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The statute tells us to look at -- tells the Court
to look at the Defendant's physical and mental condition.
And as you can see from the bond report on page 2, the
physical health says he is in excellent physical health with
no medical problems reported. And as I read to you a minute
ago, there's no evidence of any mental issues, no counseling
treatment. There's no conduct that anybody alleges that
would be attributable to mental condition. And so that
factor weighs in Mr. Musse's favor as well.
The next thing that the statute requires to be
considered is length of residence in the community. And as
we learned, Mr. Musse was born in St. Louis Park at
Methodist Hospital. He is 19 years old. His father lives
here. He lives with his father. Although I will tell the
Court that his mother lives in Kenya, and he has travelled
back and forth to Kenya. In fact I have his passport,
another factor, but I looked at it and he's been there and
back a couple of times. His passport was issued in 2011 so
it's hard to see why he would need to have another passport.
But in any event, I have his passport over here and we can
surrender that to the Court.
The family ties that he has here, he has a very
substantial tie. His father lives here. As we learned in
the testimony this morning from Agent Samit, he lives with
his dad. His dad and he have an obvious relationship -- I
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 136 of 155 13 6
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
should say obviously close relationship because, as is
recounted in paragraph 64 of the affidavit in support of the
complaint, the confidential human source reports -- and
apparently it was recorded so they probably reviewed that,
too -- that based on his father's -- a conversation with his
father, Mr. Musse said he wasn't going anywhere.
And this is an important thing because, first of
all, it evidences a strong family tie with his dad. His dad
is willing to have his son come and live with him again.
That's where he lives. He's willing to supervise him. But
it shows that he and his father have a good relationship and
that they talk about things. You know, the issues are out
there, and that the son is -- Mr. Musse is very respectful
of his father and honors both what his father apparently
expressed to him were his wishes, and he's not shy about
saying it.
The next thing that the -- so I think this family
tie factor weighs heavily, very heavily, in Mr. Musse's
favor.
The employment is the next thing we have to look
at. And the bond report reports that Mr. Musse was employed
last at Doherty Staffing but has not been since November
2014. But as we learned today from Agent Samit, Mr. Musse
is a student at the Minneapolis Community Technical College,
I believe it's called. So it's not surprising that he is
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 137 of 155 137
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
not employed. And I think that the intent of this
particular factor in the statute is I think that what was
fairly intended by Congress is employment or school. What
are you doing besides laying around the house all day would
be how I interpret that. So I would believe that that
weighs in Mr. Musse's favor, too.
One of the things that the statute -- the next
thing the statute tells us to look at is past conduct. And
I guess I don't know what that means because they also talk
about a record. But I don't see anything in the record in
terms of past conduct that would indicate to anyone that
Mr. Musse would be a danger of flight or a danger to anyone.
There's no record -- there's nothing in the record before
the Court that suggests he ever made a threat to anyone, was
ever armed, attempted to have a weapon, used a weapon,
carried a weapon, was near a weapon. So I'm not seeing that
there was any past conduct that weighs against him. I don't
know what it means so I'm reluctant to say it weighs in
favor of him, but generally I think he's acknowledged to be
a person of good conduct.
The next thing the statute tells us to look at are
financial resources. And I guess I don't really know what
that means but his family, his dad, is in a position to
support him so that he wouldn't be cast adrift in the world
pending the outcome of the case. And I think that's what
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 138 of 155 138
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
the statute is talking about. Does the person have
somewhere to live and a way to take care of themselves. So
I would suggest to the Court respectfully that that weighs
in Mr. Musse's favor, too.
The next thing the statute tells us to look at is
whether at the time of the current offense or arrest the
Defendant was on probation or parole or other release
pending trial, sentencing, appeal, or completion of a
sentence. Well, he wasn't on any of those things because
none of those things have ever happened to him.
And obviously what the Congress is saying is that
people who are under a criminal justice situation,
disability, circumstance, and are charged with a new offense
are people that, you know, you should be more reluctant to
let out than not. And so here, this is a factor that I
believe can only weigh in Mr. Musse's favor because he's not
under one of those disabilities at this time.
The next factor the statute tells us to look at is
the nature and seriousness of the danger to any person or
the community that would be posed by the Defendant's
release. And other than the charged offense, there's
nothing in the record that would support any conclusion that
Mr. Musse's a danger to any person. There's not one
person -- this is not a circumstance where there's been an
assault or something or, you know, there's a person out
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 139 of 155 139
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
there that's going to be in danger. Rather, this is a
person where the community is here today, along with these
other young men, to support. So I would say to the Court
that this factors weighs in favor of Mr. Musse as well.
The other things that the statute commands the
Court to look at are weight of the evidence, and we've
already talked about that earlier and I'm not going to
repeat my comments, and the nature and the circumstances of
the offense charged. And there's not any question that this
is a serious charged offense. But that's not -- that's one
of, it looks like, about 14 factors in the statute. And
from my reading of the statute and my discussion with you
today, it looks to me like all the other factors weigh in
favor of releasing Mr. Musse.
And I would tell the Court that -- I would remind
the Court that it was on November 9th, 2014 last year that
he got this target letter from the Government. And, you
know, I'm sure the Court is aware, would have seen the
target letter but there's not any ambiguity in what that
letter is telling people. It's designed to tell people
that, you know, you are in serious jeopardy of being charged
with a federal crime and you need to do something about it.
That's why they send the letter out. Kind of a fair
warning. You know, either call us or get a lawyer and call
us, but you need to do something.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 140 of 155 14 o
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
And there was no flight. There was no attempted
flight. He got a lawyer. He got me. I will tell you,
Judge, that when I call him, he calls me right back every
time. He's done everything I've asked him to do. When I
ask him to come and see me he comes, usually with his dad.
Sometimes his dad comes just to see me, too. I mean, these
are people that are taking their circumstances that they
find themselves in with this Court very seriously.
Your Honor, I recognize and, you know, it is
true, Judge, that he is locked up in Sherburne County 23
hours a day in solitary confinement, which is just plain
wrong. And, you know, this is a presumptively innocent
19-year-old American citizen that we're taking and sticking
in solitary confinement. And I'm telling you, Judge, that's
not the best way to handle things.
There's a compromise here that will fairly address
the legitimate concern that the Government has in balancing
the rights of the Defendant, my guy, Mr. Musse, and, you
know, the humanity of the United States and that is to put
him in a halfway house. They can supervise them in a
halfway house, they can restrict Internet, they can restrict
hours, they can put them on a bracelet so everybody knows
where he is. And this is what I believe the statute
requires, which is the least restrictive -- I mean, that's
my word -- set of circumstances that will fairly meet all
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 141 of 155 141
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
the legitimate and sometimes competing aims that the Court
is presented with at this stage of the proceedings.
So I'm not asking you to send him home. I'm
asking you to put him in a halfway house, because I'm
realistic and I think it's the right thing to do and the
fair thing to do. And thank you for your time, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
Mr. Docherty.
MR. DOCHERTY: Your Honor, several of the counsel
for the Defendants have said that their clients should be
released to the care and custody of their families. And the
problem with that, your Honor, is that that has been tried
in this case and it has failed. The families were not able
to stop these young men from going to New York in November
of 2014.
With respect to Guled Ali Omar's family in
particular, in May of 2014 when he tried to go to San Diego
with Yusuf Jama and the CHS, I asked Agent Samit is there
any indication that that family got in touch with law
enforcement. There was not. And a few days later Yusuf
Jama was on an airplane headed for Syria. That was a
spectacular failure, your Honor.
Mr. Hanad Musse decided not to try and get to
Syria by travelling with these others who drove down there
on Friday the 17th of this month. That was because his
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 142 of 155 14 2
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
father confronted him. But his father didn't tell law
enforcement anything, and the other Defendants travelled to
San Diego and fortunately they were stopped there.
There's also a theme running through many of the
presentations that just because -- I think Mr. Engh called
it "the ipse dixit fallacy" that the Government gets to
choose to charge these people and then from that gets to
choose that they be detained. That omits, however, the very
important and indeed the critical role played by an
independent judiciary. We don't get to detention after I go
to my office and type up a complaint and we're off to the
races. The complaint is reviewed by a judge and signed by a
judge if that judge finds probable cause; and even then,
after the judge has found probable cause, we have a
preliminary hearing, like the one we had for several hours
this morning, in which the allegations in that complaint are
tested.
So it's not a question of the Government choosing
crimes that from which detention follows. It's a question
of their being probable cause to believe that these
Defendants have committed extraordinarily serious federal
crimes of terrorism. And in fact in the statute that
Mr. Birrell cited to the Court many times, 3142(g), one of
the very first subdivisions of that 3142(g) (1) said that one
of the things that the Court should consider is the nature
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 143 of 155 143
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
of the offense charged. For example, is it a Federal crime
of terrorism, as it is in this case.
We're supposed to consider the weight of the
evidence. And in this case we're talking about tape
recorded conversations about trips to Kennedy airport, about
attempts to fly out to San Diego.
We're asked to consider the nature and seriousness
of the danger. The danger of release is extraordinary in
this case and I'm not just talking about terrorism itself.
I'm also talking about what I began this hearing with some
hours ago. The vitreal, the threats, the charged atmosphere
in which this case is going forward.
MR. HOPEMAN: I'm going to object to that argument
because he said earlier it has nothing to do with our
clients. Shouldn't be pertinent.
MR. DOCHERTY: It is pertinent, however, because
although I'm not accusing those clients of doing anything,
it is nevertheless something the Court must consider is the
atmosphere in which this litigation is going forward.
Mr. Hapeman said that Mr. Zacharia Abdurahman
should be released to his home and, if necessary, put on a
bracelet. And then said that the Court doesn't -- cited
correctly the standard, which is that the Court doesn't need
to guarantee that Mr. Abdurahman will return because, and he
is right, I am here to say that bracelets are not foolproof.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 144 of 155 144
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
They can be cut off. They can be disabled. In this case we
do need to guarantee the Defendants will return because of
the seriousness of the allegations and the depth and
seriousness of the danger and the risk of flight.
Lastly, Mr. Bruder said that Mr. Guled Ali Omar
has a family that he can go to and that they will guarantee
his appearance in Court. Well, Mr. Guled Ali Omar's older
brother is a man named Ahmed Ali Omar and he is an indicted
fugitive from this Court. Mr. Guled Ali Omar's younger
brother is Mohamed Ali Omar, and he was convicted by a jury
of this Court on March -- the end of the week of March 9th
of threatening federal officers when they came to talk with
him or came to talk with members of his family about Guled's
attempted travel to San Diego out of MSP that day.
That is not a family in which the Court can place
any significant, indeed any confidences whatsoever, that
they will see to it that Guled Ali Omar returns to court or
that Guled Ali Omar does not leave the country, as he has
tried to do multiple times as laid out in this complaint.
In short, your Honor, the case for detention in
this case is strong and I respectfully ask that the Court
order all four Defendants detained pending trial in this
case.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 145 of 155 145
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Any response from any counsel for any Defendant?
Mr. Hopeman.
MR. HOPEMAN: Your Honor, my client and his family
are from a tradition called the Sufi tradition. It's a
pacifist tradition. They are pacifists. They are like
Quakers. They don't believe in conflict. They don't
believe in war. I was absolutely dumbfounded when
Mr. Docherty stood up a minute ago and suggested that
because of the atmosphere that other people in the community
might be responsible for, that that's an added reason to
detain these men. And then he went a little further and
said that's a reason that the Court, as I understood him,
should change the standard from reasonably assure to
guarantee. And that's just not the law and I had to respond
to that.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. ENGH: One point deserves mentioning, your
Honor. This idea that because a complaint has been signed,
therefore the evidence is necessarily overwhelming. The
fact remains that I don't recall a single instance where a
complaint wasn't signed in Federal Court. And the
Government controls the complete content of the complaint
itself, and need not express any Brady or exculpatory facts
therein. And so the fact that a complaint has been signed
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 146 of 155 14 6
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
is essentially not a terrific argument or persuasive
argument because, again, it's just the Government's view of
the facts without any counter-prevailing facts presented to
the Court for its own independent review.
In any event, I do reassert my position that you
should consider lesser alternatives.
THE COURT: Thank you, Counsel.
MR. BRUDER: One brief comment, your Honor, on
behalf of Mr. Guled Ali Omar.
Mr. Docherty's comments about my client's family
would be compelling if the individuals he mentioned actually
were living in the household. However, they are not. And
those who are living in the household are upstanding
citizens. And, in fact, even if you accept the Government's
narrative, took immediate action to assure that Mr. Omar did
not take any steps in May of 2014 to leave the State of
Minnesota.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. BIRRELL: Nothing further. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. We'll take a brief recess
and I will come back and give my ruling. It's a little bit
before 2 o'clock now. Why don't we come back at 2:15.
We're in recess.
(Recess taken from 1:57 to 2:20 p.m.)
THE COURT: Please be seated. We are back on the
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 147 of 155 14 7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
record in the matter 15-mj-312 (BRT) with the four
Defendants who are here for detention hearing. I am
prepared to make my ruling.
Before I do, and I will go through each Defendant,
I do want to make sure I say to all the Defendants who are
here today, that I recognize that you are each entitled to a
presumption of innocence at trial, and that what we're doing
here today is having a detention hearing where a lot of
factors are considered. And there's been argument and
testimony today about the charges that you face and about
the complaint, but nothing that take place at this detention
hearing or anything that I set forth in my findings after
the hearing is intended to change the presumption of your
innocence at trial.
In this case the Government is arguing that each
of the Defendants appearing today should be detained because
the Defendant presents a risk of flight. And in that
situation the Government must show by a preponderance of the
evidence that no conditions or combination of conditions
will reasonably assure the Defendant's presence as required.
The Government is also arguing that the Defendant would be a
danger or danger to another in the community. And in that
case the Government has a higher burden and the Government
must show by clear and convincing evidence that no
conditions or combination of conditions will reasonably
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 148 of 155 148
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
assure the safety of the community.
You've heard today that this case involves a
rebuttable presumption and with that situation, then when
there's a rebuttable presumption, then the Defendant has to
come forward with some credible evidence to respond to that.
I find that in each of the cases here with each of
the Defendants, you have come forward with some credible
evidence to respond to that rebuttable presumption. But as
you also heard, it's still a factor, the rebuttable
presumption is still a factor regarding the detention
decision.
So now I will also talk about the factors that are
applied, and in the statute that we've been looking at and
hearing about there are four factors in those -- in the
statute. First is the nature and circumstances of the
alleged offense. Second, the weight of the evidence against
the Defendant.
Third, the history and characteristics of the
person, including: The person's character, physical and
mental condition, family ties, employment, financial
resources, length of residence in the community, community
ties, past conduct, history relating to drug or alcohol
abuse, criminal history, and record concerning appearance at
court proceedings; whether the person, at the time of the
current offense or arrest, was on probation, on parole, or
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 149 of 155 149
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
on other release pending trial, sentencing, appeal, or
completion of sentence for an offense under Federal, State
or local law. So that's all underneath the third factor,
the history and characteristics of the person.
And then finally, the fourth factor is the nature
and seriousness of the danger to others in the community.
So I'd like to go through each -- each one of the -- I'd
like to cover the detention decision with each of the
Defendants and beginning with Mr. Farah.
Based on the evidence that I've heard at the
hearing, I've also considered the factors relating to
Mr. Farah, and I have looked at the Pretrial Services report
and recommendation that in this case is a recommendation to
detain.
I find that the Government has met its showing by
a preponderance of evidence that detention is required based
upon a risk of flight. And in particular I look at the
factors, and the factors that are of most significance to me
as I look at everything is the nature of the offense. The
nature of the offense, as has been discussed, is very
serious and it's one of those listed out in ( g) ( 1) . And of
course there's a recognition that for purposes of the trial
there's a presumption of innocence; but this is one of the
factors that I must consider in the detention proceeding
process.
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 150 of 155 150
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
And the second factor that I find significant is
the weight of the evidence against the person; and then
finally the ties to foreign countries.
I also find that the Government has met its burden
of showing by clear and convincing evidence that detention
is required based on danger to others in the community. In
particular, again, I am looking of the four factors, the
nature of the offense, and the weight of the evidence
against the Defendant is significant. And in this case a
danger to others, including the danger to others if the
Defendant should leave.
I really appreciate that family and friends and
community connections to this Defendant and others are here.
I appreciate that and I've heard the lawyers talk about
those connections. But still when I weigh that in and look
at that as one of the factors and the -- some of the
backdrop to this case, I still find that there's no
condition or combination of conditions that would reasonably
assure that the Defendant would appear for court or that the
public safety would be assured.
So I find that Mr. Farah should be detained and is
remanded to the custody of the U.S. Marshal. I'll ask the
Government to prepare a draft order.
I also want to respond to what I heard about the
conditions of confinement right now. And while that's not a
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 151 of 155 151
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
factor in the analysis, I want to tell the Defendants that
I've heard that and I will follow up with the United States
Marshal to make sure that the conditions of detention,
confinement, are appropriate. And so I just wanted to
mention that as we moved along here.
Next we will cover the detention of Mr. Omar. So
regarding Mr. Omar, I have looked at the four factors,
including the presumption, and have considered all of the
evidence that we've looked at today. And I've also
considered the recommendation of Pretrial Services, which in
that case is also to detain.
I find the Government has met its burden of
showing by a preponderance of evidence that detention is
required based upon the risk of flight, and in particular
I'm looking at the nature of the offense and here the nature
of the offense is very serious and it is one of the offenses
listed out in ( g) ( 1) . I'm also looking at the weight of the
evidence against the person and the ties to foreign
countries.
I find that the Government has met its burden by
showing by clear and convincing evidence that detention is
required based on danger to others in the community. In
particular I'm looking at the factor relating to the nature
of the offense and the weight of the evidence against the
Defendant. I'm looking at the danger to others including
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 152 of 155 152
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
the danger to others if the Defendant should leave.
Again, I appreciate the family and community
support and what was said about the family's support, but I
still am weighing that with the other factors. I find that
there's no condition or combination of conditions that would
reasonably assure that the Defendant would appear for court,
for the public safety or safety of the community.
And so I will order the Defendant to remain
detained pending these proceedings and will be remanded to
the custody of the U.S. Marshal, and I will ask the
Government to prepare a draft order. I will follow up, as I
just mentioned, regarding conditions. Even though that's
not part of the detention decision, I do want to do some
follow up myself.
The next Defendant that we will discuss is
Mr. Abdurahman. I have considered all of the factors
relating to the Defendant. I've considered the four factors
along with the rebuttable presumption. I've considered the
report of Pretrial, which in this case is a recommendation
to detain.
With all of that in mind, and in looking at
everything, I find that the Government has met its burden to
establish a risk of flight based on a preponderance of the
evidence. And in particular I'm looking at the nature of
the offense. Again, the nature of the offense is very
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 153 of 155 153
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
serious and one of those listed out in ( g) ( 1) . I'm looking
at the weight of the evidence against the person and the
ties to foreign countries.
I find that the Government has met its burden by
showing through clear and convincing evidence that detention
is required based on danger to others in the community. In
particular, I'm looking at the nature of the offense, the
weight of the evidence against the Defendant, and the danger
to others including the danger if Defendant should leave.
Once again, I do want to mention that I appreciate
the community and family support; but in looking at that
along with the other factors, I find that there are no
conditions or combination of conditions that would
reasonably assure that the Defendant would appear for court
or the public safety or safety of the community could be
reasonably assured. So I will order that the Defendant
remain in custody, detained pending these proceedings, and
will be remanded to the custody of the United States
Marshal. I'll ask the Government to prepare an order.
And then separate from that, I will follow up with
the U.S. Marshal of the conditions of detention right now.
And then finally as to Mr. Musse, I have taken a
look at the four factors. The rebuttable presumption. I've
also taken a look at the Pretrial Services report and
recommendation which in this case is to detain. Based on
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 154 of 155 154
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
the evidence today at the hearing and the arguments, I find
that the Government has met its burden to show by a
preponderance of the evidence that detention is required
based on risk of flight. And in particular, I'm looking at
the factors relating to the nature of the offense, and the
nature of this offense is serious and one of those listed
out in (g) (1); the weight of evidence against the Defendant
and the ties to foreign countries.
I also find that the Government has met its burden
by showing through clear and convincing evidence that
detention is required based on danger to others in the
community; and in particular, I find that the nature of the
offense, the weight of the evidence against the Defendant,
the danger to others, including the danger if the Defendant
should leave.
Again, I appreciate the information about the
family and the community support; but, again, in weighing
that along -- and the other evidence and arguments provided
by the Defendants, I find that there are no conditions or
combination of conditions that would reasonably assure that
the Defendant would appear for Court or that the public
safety or safety of the community could be assured.
I will order that the Defendant remain detained
pending these proceedings. And
(Verbal outburst in the courtroom.)
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
CASE 0:15-cr-00049-MJD-FLN Document 33 Filed 05/01/15 Page 155 of 155 155
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT: We will continue. I will ask the
Government to prepare a draft order and I will also follow
up on the conditions of confinement separate and apart from
the detention decision.
Is there anything else we need to cover this
afternoon from the Government's perspective?
MR. DOCHERTY: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: For the Defendants?
MR. ENGH: Not at this time.
MR. HOPEMAN: No, your Honor.
MR. BRUDER: No, your Honor.
MR. BIRRELL: No thank you.
THE COURT: And then to the Defendants, I wish you
the best going forward and we are in recess.
Thank you.
(Court adjourned at 2:36 p.m.)
* * *
I, Carla R. Bebault, certify that the foregoing is
a correct transcript from the record of proceedings in the
above-entitled matter.
Certified by: s/Carla R. Bebault Carla Bebault, RMR, CRR, FCRR
CARLA R. BEBAULT, CRR, RMR (651) 848-1220
top related