10 22 12 0204 2025 063341 hearing - 183074gw-full transcript

7/27/2019 10 22 12 0204 2025 063341 Hearing - 183074gw-Full transcript

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I N THE SECOND J UDI CI AL DI STRI CT COURT OF THE STATE OF

NEVADA

I N AND FOR THE COUNTY OF WASHOE

- oOo-

THE STATE OF NEVADA, : : Pl ai nt i f f , : Case No. CR12- 2025 : Dept No. 10 vs. : : ZACH COUGHLI N, : : Def endant . :======================================================

TRANSCRI PT OF PROCEEDI NGS

HEARI NG

Oct ober 22, 2012

Reno, Nevada

SUNSHI NE LI TI GATI ON SERVI CES Tr anscr i bed By: GAI L R. WI LLSEY, CSR #359, CA CSR


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SUNSHI NE REPORTI NG - ( 775) 323- 3411

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6 A P P E A R A N C E S

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9 FOR THE PLAI NTI FF:

MR. YOUNG10

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14 FOR THE DEFENDANT: MR. LESLI E

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1 ** . **

2 RENO, NEVADA, MONDAY, OCTOBER 22, 2012, 10: 10 A. M.

3 ** . **

4

5 THE COURT: Pl ease be seat ed. Good mor ni ng.

6 THE DEFENDANT: Good mor ni ng j udge.

7 THE COURT: Good mor ni ng.

8 Thi s i s t he cont i nued t r i al dat e f or t he

9 mat t er of St at e ver sus Zachar y Coughl i n. I do

10 act ual l y have t wo cases. The second one i s a f al se

11 st at ement t o obst r uct i ng a publ i c of f i cer whi ch i s not

12 set f or cont i nued t r i al .

13 The i ssue, as I r ecal l f r om t he pr evi ous

14 hear i ng, i s t hat we had r equest ed an eval uat i on of t he

15 def endant t o see i f he was competent t o cont i nue wi t h

16 t he t r i al . Does anyone know i f we got a r esul t on

17 t hat eval uat i on or ?

18 MR. LESLI E: We di d, your Honor , and i t was

19 addressed t o you and copi ed t o counsel so you may have

20 i t i n your f i l e.

21 THE COURT: I t hi nk I have i t .

22 Okay, i t does appear t hat t he det er mi nat i on

23 was t hat he i s compet ent t o cont i nue so.

24 MR. LESLI E: Yes.


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1 THE COURT: And when we had l ef t of f - -

2 MR. LESLI E: Act ual l y, your Honor , t her e was

3 t hen a subsequent st i pul at i on t o cont i nue t he t r i al

4 date and t o t r eat t oday as si mpl y recei vi ng and maki ng

5 a r ul e on t he compet ency i ssue. The t r i al has

6 act ual l y been r eset , pur suant t o t hat st i pul at i on, t o

7 November 19t h. Mr . Coughl i n has been not i ced.

8 THE COURT: Al l r i ght , and t hat ' s on bot h

9 cases?

10 MR. LESLI E: I ' m sor r y, your Honor , I can' t

11 hear when Mr . Coughl i n keeps t al ki ng i n my ear . What

12 di d t he cour t say?

13 THE COURT: Okay. We' r e t al ki ng r i ght now

14 about t he case whi ch I am t he t r i al j udge whi ch i s t he

15 Case Number 2011- 063341, t he charges bei ng pet t y

16 l ar ceny and possessi on of st ol en pr oper t y. I have a

17 second case whi ch i s - - wel l , l et ' s di spose of t hat

18 one f i r s t , t hat i s the one t hat i s set f or t r i al - -

19 MR. LESLI E: Yes and t oday was t o r ecei ve and

20 have the cour t make a deter mi nat i on wi t h r egar d t o hi s

21 competency t hen we had cont i nued the t r i al out t o

22 November 19t h.

23 THE COURT: And t hat ' s a f ul l day or what

24 t i me ar e we st ar t i ng?


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1 MR. LESLI E: We st ar t at 8: 30 on

2 November 19t h. I assume t hat a day has been set asi de

3 but i t ' s t i me f or t he def ense t o set pr esent i t ' s

4 case.

5 THE COURT: I want t o make sur e; do we have

6 i t set f or t he whol e day. I j ust want t o make sur e

7 because we have - - unf or t unatel y t oday, we' r e down a

8 j udge.

9 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor , i f I coul d j ust

10 i nt er j ect , you r ul ed t hat i f I was r ul ed compet ent

11 t hat I woul d be abl e to repr esent mysel f and I wi sh t o

12 do so.

13 MR. YOUNG: Your Honor , f i r st t hi ngs f i r st ,

14 what I woul d ask i s t hat you make a rul i ng on t he

15 r ecor d based on t he r epor t as t o hi s compet ency.

16 THE COURT: Al l r i ght .

17 Havi ng consi dered t he eval uat i on whi ch was

18 dat ed - - wel l , t he dat e of t he eval uat i on was 9/ 28 of

19 2012. The eval uat i on was conduct ed by Tom Dur ant e,

20 and t he concl usi on of t he r epor t was t hat Mr . Coughl i n

21 was compet ent t o r epr esent hi msel f . I ' m sor r y, was

22 compet ent and f ur t her , i t was t he wr i t er ' s

23 pr of essi onal opi ni on t hat Mr . Coughl i n al so cur r ent l y

24 meet s t hi s cr i t er i a t o be consi der ed t o compet ent t o


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1 st and t r i al . So t he cour t wi l l f i nd t hat he i s

2 compet ent t o st and t r i al .

3 Al so, Mr . Coughl i n i s abl e t o engage i n

4 r eci pr ocal di al ogue. Mr . Coughl i n demonst r at ed t hese

5 abi l i t i es and i t appear s t hat he can wor k wi t h hi s

6 at t or ney as wel l as par t i ci pat e i n t he l egal pr ocess

7 appr opr i at el y i f he so chooses.

8 So t he quest i on whi ch was propounded by Mr .

9 Lesl i e i n t hi s mat t er was answer ed i n t he af f i r mat i ve

10 t hat he i s abl e to wor k wi t h counsel i f he so chooses.

11 So I am goi ng t o f i nd hi m compet ent t o st and t r i al s.

12 So t hat ' s t akes car e of t he f i r st i ssue.

13 MR. YOUNG: Thank you, your Honor .

14 THE COURT: Then t here' s some di scuss i on, by

15 Mr . Coughl i n, as t o whet her or not he shoul d be abl e

16 t o r epr esent hi msel f whi ch I pr evi ousl y r ul ed t o t he

17 cont r ar y on t hat . Mr . Coughl i n has repr esent ed t hat I

18 i ndi cat ed t hat i f he was f ound compet ent , I woul d

19 al l ow hi m t o r epr esent hi msel f , and I don' t r ecal l

20 t hat f r ankl y so.

21 THE DEFENDANT: I t ' s on t he r ecor d, your

22 Honor .

23 THE COURT: So I ' m goi ng t o ask Mr . Lesl i e i f

24 he agr ees wi t h hi s cl i ent t hat I i ndi cat ed t hat i f he


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1 was f ound compet ent , t hat he woul d be abl e to

2 r epr esent hi msel f ?

3 MR. LESLI E: Your Honor , my r ecol l ect i on i s

4 t hat you di d make a comment al ong t hose l i nes or al ong

5 t he l i nes of t hat i f he came back compet ent af t er t he

6 Lakes eval uat i on, t hat you woul d be wi l l i ng t o

7 r econsi der i t . I don' t know i f i t was wi l l i ng t o

8 r econsi der or t hat you woul d j ust sor t of

9 aut omat i cal l y al l ow hi m t o r epr esent hi msel f . I t hi nk

10 t hat he woul d pr obabl y need t o pr ovi de at l east some

11 ver bal assurance to t he cour t t hat he woul d not be

12 di sr upt i ve i n t he pr oceedi ngs i f he r epr esent s

13 hi msel f .

14 THE COURT: Wel l , what I ' m goi ng t o do

15 bet ween now and t he cont i nued t r i al dat e, I wi l l make

16 t hat det er mi nat i on. I ' m goi ng t o r eser ve r ul i ng on

17 i t . I am goi ng t o r evi ew t he t r anscr i pt of t he l ast

18 pr oceedi ng as t o t hat i ssue, but I wi l l al l ow bot h

19 counsel t o comment on t hat . I ' ve hear d Mr . Lesl i e. I

20 wi l l hear f r om Mr . Young.

21 MR. YOUNG: Your Honor , as best as I can

22 r emember , I do recal l you sayi ng somet hi ng al ong those

23 l i nes, as Mr . Coughl i n has repr esent ed t oday. I don' t

24 r emember your exact words but i t sounds si mi l ar .


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1 MR. LESLI E: I f I coul d j ust add somet hi ng t o

2 t hat . What I woul d ask us t o consi der doi ng i s not

3 comi ng back on t he 19t h of November and maki ng a

4 r ul i ng on t hat i ssue.

5 THE COURT: No. What I envi si oned was

6 r eser vi ng r ul i ng unt i l I can r evi ew t he t r anscr i pt

7 because I don' t have i t her e t oday. I know Mr .

8 Coughl i n has r epr esent ed t hat and i t appear s t her e i s

9 some consensus at l east t hat I was goi ng t o rul e or

10 r econsi der my pr i or r ul i ng. I wi l l set a dat e f or

11 t hat at whi ch we can conduct anot her Faret t a canvas

12 and as wel l as - - assumi ng, f i r st of al l , t hat I f i nd

13 t hat I di d i n f act i ndi cat e t hat I woul d r econsi der

14 i t .

15 MR. LESLI E: And i f I may, my onl y concern

16 t her e as l ong as we pi ck a dat e t hat al l ows a

17 r easonabl e amount of t i me f r om t hat dat e - -

18 THE COURT: I ' m hopi ng t o do i t next week.

19 MR. LESLI E: Okay. And t he r eason f or t hat

20 i s I ' ve assur ed hi m t hat i f we swi t ch t o

21 sel f - r epr esent at i on, t hat t her e ar e cer t ai n what I

22 cal l handof f pr ocedur es t hat I need t o engage i n.

23 I n ot her words, I need t o make sur e he has

24 t he ki nd of evi dence t hat I have and t hi ngs l i ke t hat


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1 THE DEFENDANT: Do what ?

2 MR. LESLI E: I f you don' t want a l awyer and

3 you want t o r epr esent your sel f - -

4 MR. YOUNG: Your Honor , i f you want t o set i t

5 f or anot her day, t hat ' s f i ne.

6 THE COURT: No. I ' l l do i t r i ght now. We

7 have i t schedul ed t o do i t so. I was concerned about

8 t he i ssue of whet her or not I had even commi t t ed t o do

9 i t .

10 MR. YOUNG: Wel l and agai n, your Honor , what

11 I r ecal l you sayi ng i s somet hi ng al ong t he l i nes i f

12 he' s compet ent , he can r epr esent hi msel f . J ust

13 because you say t hat and Mr . Coughl i n enj oys doi ng

14 t hi s t hat i f says one t hi ng, he l at ches on t o i t l i ke

15 i t ' s gospel .

16 Regardl ess of what you di d or di d not say,

17 you coul d do a Faret t a canvas now i f you choose t o do

18 so but r egar dl ess of what you sai d back t hen on t he

19 r ecor d j ust because - - he does not aut omat i cal l y get

20 t o r epr esent hi msel f . They' r e t wo mut ual l y excl usi ve

21 i ssues. So i f you' r e goi ng t o do a Far et t a canvas.

22 THE COURT: I wi l l do t he Far et t a canvas now

23 and we' l l make det ermi nat i on.

24 MR. YOUNG: Your Honor , af t er your canvas, I


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1 woul d st i l l l i ke t o be hear d.

2 THE COURT: That ' s f i ne. We' l l do a Far et t a

3 canvas. Then we' l l make a det ermi nat i on as t o whether

4 or not you wi l l r epr esent your sel f , Mr . Coughl i n.

5 MR. LESLI E: I t hi nk you shoul d ask hi m up

6 f r ont i f he want s t o r epr esent hi msel f so we don' t

7 equi vocat e and wast e our t i me. I f he doesn' t want t o

8 r epr esent hi msel f , don' t wast e your t i me i s my

9 t hought . We' ve been here bef ore.

10 THE COURT: Mr . Coughl i n?

11 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor , can I ent er a f ew

12 t hi ngs f or t he r ecor d. Ther e' s been numer ous

13 vi ol at i ons of N R S- 178. 405 and t hat dur i ng t he

14 pendency of t he or der f or compet ency eval uat i on, t hat

15 counsel has proceeded t o swap hear i ngs and reset dat es

16 and f i l e mot i ons and do al l t he t hi ngs t hat ar e

17 verbot en under 178. 405 and t hi s has happened.

18 THE COURT: What di d he do, si r ?

19 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , I ' ve been subj ect t o

20 numer ous orders f or compet ency eval uat i ons t hi s year

21 and - -

22 THE COURT: That was me, si r , not counsel .

23 THE DEFENDANT: But t he st at ute says al l

24 pr oceedi ngs are st ayed dur i ng t he pendency of such


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1 or der s and yet Mr . Young f i l ed a f ugi t i ve document i n

2 opposi t i on - -

3 MR. LESLI E: Your Honor , are we conveni ng

4 anot her Marsden hear i ng?

5 THE DEFENDANT: Excuse me, Mr . Lesl i e.

6 MR. LESLI E: Ser i ousl y, your Honor .

7 THE COURT: I was t al ki ng about your counsel ;

8 has your counsel f i l ed any mot i on i n t hi s case

9 what soever?

10 THE DEFENDANT: Oh Mr . Lesl i e, I don' t t hi nk

11 he' s f i l ed a si ngl e wor d I ' m t al ki ng about ever at

12 al l .

13 THE COURT: Wel l , t hat ' s not t r ue.

14 THE DEFENDANT: Mr . Young f i l ed af t er t he

15 cl andest i ne t ype st at us conf er ence on Febr uar y 27t h,

16 he f i l ed - -

17 THE COURT: Si r , i f you end up r epr esent i ng

18 your sel f , you can ar gue about t hat l at er . I have not

19 consi der ed any mot i ons si nce t he date t hat we l ast

20 met . Ther e' s not hi ng t hat I have done ot her t han

21 r evi ew t he eval uat i on whi ch I j ust di d now i n f r ont of

22 you.

23 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , si r , somet hi ng had t o

24 have been done t o have t hi s become a combo hear i ng.


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1 THE COURT: I t ' s not a combo hear i ng.

2 THE DEFENDANT: We' r e not her e on 067980?

3 THE COURT: I have t he f i l e her e.

4 THE DEFENDANT: I t was r epresent ed t o me t hat

5 we' r e her e on t hi s and f ur t her , we wer e set f or

6 November 15t h.

7 THE COURT: Wel l , we' r e here on t he

8 compet ency because t he compet ency i ncl uded your

9 competency aut omat i cal l y i n ever y case.

10 THE DEFENDANT: And t hat was t o occur on

11 Oct ober 15th, yet somehow, we got t hi s Oct ober 22nd

12 dat e and i n t he i nt er veni ng per i od, t he Oct ober 15t h

13 dat e was swi t ched wi t h Mr . Dogan' s case 650630 and i t

14 wasn' t unt i l I began maki ng i ssue - -

15 THE COURT: I ' m not goi ng t o wast e t i me on

16 t hi s anymor e. Ei t her you want t o r epr esent your sel f

17 or you don' t , "Yes" or "No"?

18 THE DEFENDANT: I cl ear l y do, your Honor .


20 Then we' l l move t hr ough t he Faret t a canvas

21 and ever yone wi l l be abl e t o ar gue. As t o t hi s ot her

22 case i s - - Mr . Coughl i n, t he ot her case i s set bef or e

23 J udge Cl i f t on. You can ar gue bef or e J udge Cl i f t on on

24 t he ot her case.


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1 THE DEFENDANT: And, your Honor , I ' d l i ke t o

2 pr eserve my obj ect i ons t o t he ext ent t hat we' r e havi ng

3 an unnot i ced Far et t a canvas her e t oday and t hat Mr .

4 Young i s not f or ced t o f i l e a mot i on seeki ng t o set

5 asi de the l aw of t he case whi ch you r ender ed f r om t he

6 bench at t he pr evi ous hear i ng wherei n you announced - -

7 THE COURT: I ' m maki ng t hat det ermi nat i on. I

8 had as I - - you i ndi cat ed t hat my r ecol l ect i on i s t hat

9 I di d not aut omat i cal l y say t hat you woul d r epr esent

10 your sel f . So I bel i eve - - s t i l l bel i eve t hat t her e i s

11 an i ssue as t o whet her or not you shoul d r epr esent

12 your sel f i n t hi s mat t er , but I wi l l come back i n and

13 we wi l l do t he Far et t a canvas and t hen you ar e al l

14 f r ee t o ar gue.

15 ( A r ecess was t aken. )

16 THE COURT: Pl ease be seat ed.

17 Al l r i ght , s i r . I wi l l once agai n advi se you

18 of your r i ght s wi t h r espect t o sel f - r epr esent at i on. I

19 wi l l r ead t o you Supr eme Cour t Rul e 253 whi ch pr ovi des

20 t hat where a def endant appear i ng i n cour t chooses

21 sel f - r epr esent at i on, t he cour t shoul d make a speci f i c

22 penet r at i ng and compr ehensi ve i nqui r y of t he def endant

23 t o det ermi ne whet her or not t he def endant underst ands

24 t he consequences of hi s or her deci si on t o pr oceed


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1 wi t hout counsel .

2 The cour t ' s observat i on of t he def endant

3 shoul d r eveal t hat t he def endant appear s t o under st and

4 t he nat ur e of t he pr oceedi ngs and i s vol unt ar i l y

5 exer ci si ng hi s or her i nf or med f r ee wi l l . The cour t ' s

6 i nqui r y shoul d r eveal whet her t he def endant shoul d

7 consul t wi t h appoi nt ed counsel t o di scuss t he

8 consequences of sel f - r epr esent at i on bef or e deci di ng t o

9 pr oceed i n pr oper per son.

10 Wi t h r espect t o t hat i ssue, I bel i eve you

11 cer t ai nl y have consul t ed wi t h counsel ; i s t hat

12 correct?

13 THE DEFENDANT: Wi t h r espect t o?

14 THE COURT: Sel f - r epr esent at i on. You' ve done

15 i t here i n cour t numerous t i mes; ar e you denyi ng t hat

16 you have consul t ed wi t h counsel , si r ?

17 THE DEFENDANT: Wi t h r espect t o t he

18 consequences of sel f - r epr esent at i on?

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , I haven' t been abl e t o

21 r ecei ve any r esponse f r om Mr . Lesl i e t o a gr eat deal

22 of my i nqui r i es. He has made i ndi cat i on - -

23 THE COURT: I ' m aski ng about speci f i cal l y

24 whet her or not you shoul d r epr esent your sel f .


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1 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , Mr . Lesl i e - - I

2 r evi ewed t he - -

3 THE COURT: Si r , I ' m not goi ng t o pl ay games

4 wi t h you. Ei t her you have consul t ed wi t h hi m or you

5 haven' t .

6 THE DEFENDANT: You r ef er r ed t o on t he

7 r ecor d, your Honor , I hear d and Mr . Lesl i e - -

8 THE COURT: Wel l , l et me go f orward, t hen,

9 si r .

10 The cour t shoul d i nf or m t he def endant of some

11 of t he dangerous di sadvant ages and consequences of

12 sel f - r epr esent at i on whi ch I ' m goi ng t o do.

13 "A. Sel f - r epr esent at i on i s of t en unwi se, and

14 a def endant may conduct a def ense t o hi s or her own

15 det r i ment . " Do you underst and t hat ?

16 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, si r .

17 THE COURT: "B. A pr oper per son def endant i s

18 r esponsi bl e f or knowi ng and compl yi ng wi t h t he same

19 pr ocedur al r ul es as l awyer s and cannot expect hel p

20 f r om t he j udge i n compl yi ng wi t h t hese pr ocedur al

21 r ul es. " Do you under st and t hat ?

22 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, your Honor .

23 THE COURT: And "C, t he def endant proceedi ng

24 i n pr oper per son wi l l not be al l owed t o compl ai n on


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1 appeal about t he compet ency or ef f ect i veness of hi s or

2 her r epr esent at i on. " Do you under st and t hat ?

3 THE DEFENDANT: Wi t h r espect t o my own

4 sel f - r epr esent at i on?

5 THE COURT: Yes.

6 THE DEFENDANT: But not wi t h r espect t o Mr .

7 Lesl i e' s pr evi ous r epr esent at i on?

8 THE COURT: Wel l , I presume you woul d be abl e

9 t o, i f you had a l egi t i mat e basi s, t o compl ai n about

10 pr evi ous r epr esent at i on, yes. We' r e t al ki ng about

11 sel f - r epr esent at i on.

12 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, si r , your Honor but i t

13 seems as t hough a maj or i t y of t he t r i al has t aken

14 pl ace al r eady under Mr . Lesl i e' s wat ch.

15 THE COURT: Si r , t hat ' s not t r ue. The

16 def ense hasn' t st ar t ed yet whi ch i s, as I under st and

17 i t , t he most cri t i cal par t of your def ense.

18 MR. YOUNG: For t he r ecor d, your Honor , I

19 haven' t r est ed yet .

20 THE COURT: And Mr . Young has not r est ed yet .

21 THE DEFENDANT: I under st and, your Honor , but

22 you pr evi ousl y i ndi cat ed t hat we' r e goi ng t o go r i ght

23 t hr ough when t hi s t r i al r esumes and i t ' s goi ng t o be

24 qui ck and expedi t i ous and we' r e not goi ng t o have any


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1 sor t o f - -

2 THE COURT: Si r , you have t he r i ght - - wel l ,

3 you have t he r i ght t o subpoena wi t nesses i f you wi sh.

4 THE DEFENDANT: And I ' ve been depr i ved of

5 t hat by Mr . Lesl i e so f ar .

6 . THE COURT: Wel l , you' r e not bei ng depr i ved

7 of i t i f you r epr esent your sel f . We' r e t al ki ng about

8 sel f - r epr esent at i on.

9 THE WI TNESS: But I was at t he Mot i on To

10 Suppr ess hear i ng whi ch i s of t en where these cases ar e

11 won and l ost .

12 THE COURT: Wel l , si r , you have t he r i ght , i f

13 you r epr esent your sel f t o subpoena wi t nesses.

14 I ' m goi ng t o cont i nue. "D. The St at e wi l l be

15 r epr esent ed by exper i enced pr of essi onal counsel who

16 wi l l have t he advant age of ski l l , t r ai ni ng and

17 abi l i t y. " Do you under st and t hat ?


19 THE COURT: "E. The proper per son def endant

20 i s not ent i t l ed t o speci al l i br ar y pr i vi l eges, " but

21 si nce you' r e i n cust ody, I don' t bel i eve t hat ' s a

22 probl em.

23 THE DEFENDANT: You say I ' m i n cust ody, your

24 Honor?


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1 THE COURT: Si nce you' r e not i n cust ody.

2 THE DEFENDANT: Oh, I ' m sor r y, your Honor ,

3 okay.

4 THE COURT: Do you underst and t hat ?


6 THE COURT: "F, a def endant unf ami l i ar wi t h

7 l egal pr ocedur es may al l ow t he pr osecut or an advant age

8 and may not make ef f ect i ve use of t he l egal r i ght s and

9 may make t act i cal deci si ons t hat pr oduce uni nt ended

10 consequences. "

11 THE DEFENDANT: I under st and t hat , si r , yes.

12 THE COURT: And "G. The ef f ect i veness of t he

13 def ense may wel l be di mi ni shed by def endant ' s dual

14 r ol e as at t or ney and accused. "

15 THE DEFENDANT: I under st and t hat as wel l ,

16 your Honor .

17 THE COURT: And t hese are quest i ons t hat I

18 must ask of you.

19 A. What i s your age, si r ?

20 THE DEFENDANT: I ' m 36.

21 THE COURT: And what ' s your educat i on?

22 THE DEFENDANT: I have a Bachel or of Sci ence

23 f r om U N R i n Bi ol ogy, and I have a J ur i s Doct or at e

24 f r om U N L V. I n ' 99 Bi ol ogy, May of ' 99, December of


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1 ' 01, U N L V, J D. I ' m cur r ent l y l i censed bef or e t he

2 Uni t ed St at es Pat ent and Tr ademar k Of f i ce. My l aw

3 l i cense i n Nevada i s on a t empor ar y suspensi on.

4 THE COURT: I asked about your educat i on, not

5 your Bar st at us.

6 THE DEFENDANT: That ' s t r ue.

7 THE COURT: And you are l i t erate?

8 THE DEFENDANT: I bel i eve so, yes, your

9 Honor .

10 THE COURT: And your backgr ound asi de f r om

11 bei ng a l awyer , what pr i or exper i ence di d you have

12 wi t h l egal pr oceedi ngs, si r , ot her t han your own

13 personal exper i ence. Have you r epr esent ed def endant s

14 i n cr i mi nal cases?

15 THE DEFENDANT: You say ot her t han my own

16 per sonal exper i ences, as a pr o se cr i mi nal def endant ?

17 THE COURT: Yes. Ot her t han bei ng a pr o se

18 cr i mi nal def endant , have you r epr esent ed anyone el se

19 i n a cr i mi nal case?

20 THE DEFENDANT: I ' m not sure of f t he t op of

21 my head, your Honor .

22 THE COURT: You' r e not sure. Have you done

23 ci vi l cases.

24 THE DEFENDANT: Oh, yes, si r .


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1 THE COURT: Have you r epresented def endants

2 i n ci vi l cases?

3 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.

4 THE COURT: And pl ai nt i f f s?

5 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.

6 THE COURT: Ar e you f ami l i ar wi t h t he Rul es

7 Of Evi dence?

8 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, your Honor .

9 THE COURT: And what i s your cur r ent heal t h,

10 si r ?

11 THE DEFENDANT: I ' m f i ne.

12 THE COURT: Ar e you t aki ng any medi cat i on?

13 THE WI TNESS: I f I may, your Honor I ' d l i ke

14 t o pr eser ve my obj ect i on t o t hat i nqui r y on pr i vacy

15 gr ounds but - -


17 Wel l , ar e you under t he i nf l uence of al cohol ?

18 THE DEFENDANT: No, si r .

19 THE COURT: At some poi nt t hough, si r , you

20 can pr ovi de i t t o me conf i dent i al l y or not , but ar e

21 you t aki ng any psychot r opi c dr ugs?

22 THE DEFENDANT: I don' t bel i eve I know what

23 i s i ncl uded wi t hi n t he pur vi ew of t hat t er m, si r .

24 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Wel l , l et me go on t o


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1 C t hen. Do you have any ment al heal t h hi st ory?

2 THE DEFENDANT: I ' m not sur e what ' s meant by

3 t hat . Your Honor , I bel i eve we al l have ment al heal t h

4 hi st or y.

5 THE COURT: Wel l , have you r ecei ved t r eatment

6 f or any ment al heal t h pr obl ems?

7 THE DEFENDANT: And t hi s i s par t of a Far et t a

8 canvas?

9 THE COURT: Yes. Your ment al heal t h hi st ory

10 i s cer t ai nl y one of t he i ssues.

11 THE DEFENDANT: I ' m not sure what ment al

12 heal t h pr obl ems i ncl udes, your Honor .

13 THE COURT: Wel l , any ment al heal t h probl ems

14 t hat woul d af f ect your abi l i t y t o r epr esent your sel f .

15 THE DEFENDANT: No si r , I don' t bel i eve I

16 have.

17 THE COURT: So you have no mental heal t h

18 hi st or y or cur r ent ment al heal t h pr obl ems t hat woul d

19 af f ect your abi l i t y t o r epr esent your sel f ?

20 THE DEFENDANT: I do not bel i eve so.

21 THE COURT: And have you been t hr eat ened or

22 coer ced i n any way t o wai ve your r i ght t o an at t orney?

23 THE DEFENDANT: I wi sh t o r epr esent mysel f

24 because I bel i eve i t gi ves me t he best chances i n t hi s


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1 set t i ng.


3 And you underst and you have t he r i ght t o

4 r epr esent or t o r epr esent at i on at no cost i f you' r e

5 unabl e t o pay f or i t ?

6 THE DEFENDANT: That ' s what I ' m t ol d.

7 THE COURT: Wel l , you are r epr esent ed r i ght

8 now, si r , at no cost ?

9 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , I ' m t ol d I can subpoena

10 wi t nesses and yet Mr . Lesl i e has r ef used t o do so.

11 THE COURT: No, si r . I t ol d you i f you

12 r epr esent your sel f , you wi l l subpoena any wi t ness t hat

13 you want .

14 THE DEFENDANT: But I woul d have t o have t he

15 $25 t o pay t hem t hei r subpoena f ee.

16 THE COURT: We haven' t even - - t hat ' s not an

17 i ssue bef ore us r i ght now. You can appl y t o subpoena

18 wi t nesses i f need be.

19 THE DEFENDANT: I was unawar e of t hat , your

20 Honor .

21 THE COURT: Okay.

22 But you are aware t hat you can be r epr esent ed

23 at no cost . You have Mr . Lesl i e r i ght now?



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2 Now, I need t o r evi ew wi t h you your

3 under st andi ng of t he el ement s of each of t he cr i mes

4 t hat you are charged wi t h. One of t hose cr i mes, Count

5 I , i s pet t y l ar ceny whi ch i s a vi ol at i on of Washoe

6 Count y Code 53. 160 and 125. 020.

7 What i s your underst andi ng of t he el ement s of

8 t he of f ense, s i r ?

9 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor , my underst andi ng

10 i s t hat i n Nevada, f or l ar ceny and i t seems t o be t he

11 case whet her under t he Nevada Revi sed St at ut es ver si on

12 of t he Washoe Count y Code i t ' s t he speci f i c i nt ent of

13 cr i me r equi r i ng a f el oni ous i nt ent at t he t i me of t he

14 t aki ng and any subsequent l y af t er acqui r ed f el oni ous

15 i nt ent wi l l not suppor t a l ar ceny char ge.

16 The ot her el ement s t her ei n woul d be t he

17 t aki ng or t hef t , car r yi ng away of t he pr oper t y of

18 anot her val ued at l ess t han $250 wi t h an i nt ent t o

19 per manent l y depr i ve t hat per son t her eof .


21 And t he second of f ense i s possessi on of

22 st ol en pr oper t y and what i s your under st andi ng of t he

23 vi ol at i on of NRS- 205. 275?

24 THE DEFENDANT: My underst andi ng i s t hat


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1 under St aub V St at e, t hat t hat char ge i s i mpr oper and

2 t hat t he St at e has f ai l ed t o - -

3 THE COURT: I ' m aski ng but t he el ement s of

4 t he of f ense not whet her i t ' s pr oper or not , si r .

5 THE DEFENDANT: But t hi s goes t o one of t he

6 el ement s, si r , wi t h r espect t o t he St at e' s r equi r ement

7 t hat t hey pl ead i n t he I nf or mat i on t hat Coughl i n t ook

8 t he pr oper t y of anot her and t he St at e f ai l ed t o do so

9 under t he St aub V St at e case.

10 I bel i eve Di st r i ct At t or ney Young l acks an R

11 P C 3. 8 pr obabl e cause basi s f or br i ngi ng t hat

12 dupl i cat i ve char ge i n t hat i t was not not i ced i n t he

13 I nf or mat i on. My under st andi ng of t he el ement s i s

14 that - -

15 THE COURT: There was no I nf ormat i on i n t hi s

16 case, s i r .

17 THE DEFENDANT: I t ' s not an I ndi ct ment . I

18 bel i eve t her e i s i n t he compl ai nt .

19 THE COURT: There i s a compl ai nt , yes.

20 THE DEFENDANT: Whi ch has t o i ncl ude speci f i c

21 f act s or i nf or mat i on suppor t i ng each el ement t her eof .

22 THE COURT: The quest i on, si r , s what ar e t he

23 el ement s of t he of f ense of possessi on of st ol en

24 pr oper t y?


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1 THE WI TNESS: I bel i eve i t i s possessi on or

2 r ecei vi ng pr oper t y one knows t o be st ol en at t he t i me

3 - - and t hi s cor r el at es wi t h t he speci f i c i nt ent at t he

4 t i me of t aki ng f ound i n t he l ar ceny anal ysi s. The

5 same r ul e appl i es i n a possessi on. One has t o know,

6 at t he t i me t hat t hey possessed or r ecei ved t he

7 pr oper t y f r om anot her under St aub V St at e t o be - - t o

8 have t he r equi si t e f el oni ous i nt ent t o suppor t a

9 possessi ng or r ecei vi ng f el oni ous pr oper t y char ge.

10 The r emai ni ng el ement s go t o wi t h an i nt ent

11 t o permanent l y depr i ve I bel i eve and knowl edge t hat

12 t he pr oper t y was st ol en at t he t i me of possessi ng i t .

13 Your Honor , I ' ve submi t t ed t o t hi s cour t a

14 mor e det ai l ed anal ysi s of t he el ement s of t hat char ge

15 as wel l and I ask t hat t hose wr i t i ngs be i ncor por at ed

16 by r ef er ence i nt o t hi s anal ysi s t o t he ext ent t hat

17 t hey pr ovi de suppor t .

18 THE COURT: Wel l , si r , t hat has t o do wi t h

19 t he mer i t s, not t he el ement s of t he of f ense.

20 So agai n, do you underst and t hat one of t he

21 el ement s of t he of f ense i s possessi ng, r ecei vi ng or

22 wi t hhol di ng pr oper t y; do you under st and t hat , si r ?

23 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, I do r ecal l t hat , your

24 Honor .


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1 THE COURT: "G. Def endant s under st andi ng of

2 t he possi bl e penal t i es or puni shment s and t he t ot al

3 possi bl e sent ence t he def endant coul d r ecei ve. "


5 backt r ack f or one second, wi t h r espect t o t hat

6 wi t hhol di ng i t has t o be pr oper t y one knows bel ongs t o

7 t he ot her . So i f I can j ust c l ar i f y t hat or

8 r easonabl y bel i eves bel ongs t o t he ot her , wi t h r espect

9 t o t he movi ng f or war d anal ysi s concer ni ng I bel i eve

10 you r ef erenced t he penal t i es one may r ecei ve - -

11 THE COURT: Yes . What ar e t he maxi mum

12 penal t i es t hat you ar e f aci ng i f you ar e convi ct ed of

13 bot h count s?

14 THE DEFENDANT: I bel i eve nei t her of t hese

15 are gr oss mi sdemeanors. They' r e bot h what I woul d

16 deem as s i mpl e mi sdemeanor s or pl ai n mi sdemeanor s,

17 i t ' s up t o $1, 000 f i ne or si x mont hs i n j ai l ,

18 possi bi l i t y of communi t y ser vi ce or some ot her - -

19 THE COURT: I sai d t he maxi mum, si r , whi ch

20 woul d be - -

21 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , i t ' s my underst andi ng

22 you can onl y be convi ct ed of one i n Nevada. So t he

23 maxi mum woul d be up t o si x mont hs i n j ai l or $1, 000

24 and/ or $1, 000 f i ne.


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1 THE COURT: Si r , I underst and what you' r e

2 sayi ng your under st andi ng i s but i f you wer e convi ct ed

3 of bot h, do you under st and i t coul d be consecut i ve

4 sent ences of up t o one year and $2, 000; do you

5 under st and t hat ?

6 THE DEFENDANT: I under st and you' r e

7 i ndi cat i ng t hat , your Honor .

8 THE COURT: And "H, what i s your

9 under st andi ng of t he pl eas t hat may be avai l abl e?"

10 THE DEFENDANT: Ther e' s t hr ee t hat I ' m awar e

11 of your Honor , gui l t y, not gui l t y and no cont est .

12 THE COURT: Okay.

13 And def enses - - I t hi nk you' ve j umped ahead

14 on t hi s but what i s your under st andi ng of t he def enses

15 t hat may exi st ?

16 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , t her e' s a gr eat var i ety

17 of t hem, si r . I bel i eve cl ai m of r i ght woul d be one.

18 THE COURT: I ' m sor r y, I di dn' t hear you?

19 THE DEFENDANT: Cl ai m of r i ght under l et ' s

20 say a hypot het i cal scenar i o. I f t hi s i Phone had been

21 abandoned and i t was no l onger t he pr oper t y of one

22 cer t ai n t hat i t was hi s, t hen t her e woul d be a cl ai m

23 of r i ght of def ense.

24 I f t hi s i Phone woul d be i n t he r i ver but f or


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1 t he i nt er vent i on of some par t y, I t hi nk t her e' s some

2 cl ai m of r i ght of def ense and I ' m speaki ng

3 hypot het i cal l y i n r egar d t o al l of t hese pot ent i al

4 def enses.

5 Ot her def enses woul d i ncl ude a l ack of

6 f el oni ous i nt ent par t i cul ar l y at t he t i me of any

7 al l eged t aki ng or possessi ng. I suppose under t he l aw

8 par t i cul ar l y wi t h a speci f i c i nt ent cri me such as t hi s

9 whi ch I bel i eve t hi s i s under common l aw, r egar dl ess

10 of what t he Washoe Count y Code says, t hat i ncapaci t y

11 coul d be pot ent i al l y a def ense or i nt oxi cat i on, i f

12 t hat wer e at al l an i ssue i n a hypot het i cal scenar i o,

13 ot her pot ent i al def enses.

14 Wel l , I mean t her e' s a gr eat deal of

15 def enses, your Honor , t hat one coul d pur sue, and I ' m

16 not sur e I t ot al l y under st and i n what way you' r e usi ng

17 t hat t er m "def enses. " I mean, one coul d pur sue an

18 excl usi on of evi dence. I don' t know i f t hat ' s

19 t echni cal l y what you' r e i nvoki ng when you ask me wi t h

20 r espect t o def enses.


22 " I . Do you under st and t hat I may appoi nt

23 st andby counsel and by st andby counsel , i t ' s not

24 somebody t hat you can cal l on seat ed next t o you, i t ' s


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1 somebody who wi l l i n t he event t hat I t er mi nat e your

2 sel f - r epr esent at i on, woul d become t he appoi nt ed

3 counsel i n t he r emai ni ng pr oceedi ngs. "

4 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, si r . I ' m awar e of t hat .

5 THE COURT: And " J , t hat i f st andby counsel

6 i s appoi nt ed, st andby counsel i s not r equi r ed t o

7 advi se or pr ovi de a pr oper per son def endant wi t h l egal

8 advi ce. " Do you underst and t hat .

9 THE DEFENDANT: I ' ve been made awar e of t hat

10 pr evi ousl y by you, your Honor .

11 THE COURT: And you al so under st and t hat you

12 have 30 days wi t hi n whi ch t o f i l e an appeal f r om t he

13 ent r y of a j udgement of convi ct i on?

14 THE DEFENDANT: I bel i eve i t ' s t en f r om t he

15 r endi t i on, your Honor , and i n a cr i mi nal mi sdemeanor

16 such as t hi s under NRS- 189. 010.

17 THE COURT: And I t hi nk we went t hrough t hi s

18 bef or e and you ar e cor r ect . Thi s i s wr i t t en f or t he

19 di st r i ct cour t .

20 Then bef or e I make any f i ndi ngs, I wi l l al l ow

21 counsel t o ar gue as t o your competency t o r epr esent

22 your sel f i n t he r emai nder of t hese pr oceedi ngs. I

23 wi l l f i r st st ar t wi t h Mr . Lesl i e and t hen I wi l l hear

24 f r om Mr . Young and t hen I wi l l hear f r om Mr . Lesl i e


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1 and t hen I wi l l hear f r om you, i f you wi sh t o add

2 anythi ng.

3 MR. LESLI E: Wel l , si nce we wer e her e l ast

4 t i me and because of t he cour t ' s comment , what ever

5 exact l y i t was, about i f he was f ound competent t hat

6 somehow we woul d addr ess t he sel f - r epr esent at i on i ssue

7 and i n l i ght of what I bel i eve ar e mul t i pl e

8 expr essi ons by Mr . Coughl i n t o i n f act r epr esent

9 hi msel f .

10 I went back and I r evi ewed t he cases and one

11 of t he t hi ngs t hat st ands out I t hi nk i t was t he

12 Vani si case t hat was a capi t al mur der case where

13 ul t i mat el y, he was not al l owed t o sel f r epr esent but

14 t he cour t di d have an extensi ve di scussi on of t hat

15 i ssue. They t al ked about t he Cal i f or ni a r ul e. They

16 made comment and I bel i eve ci t ed some other cases, I

17 don' t r ecal l , about how Nevada l ooks at i s he

18 compet ent underst and what we woul d cal l a Far et t a

19 canvas.

20 Addi t i onal l y, Nevada, t he case l aw appear s t o

21 say i n sever al i nst ances t hat j ust as i mpor t ant i s

22 t hat t he r i ght of sel f - r epr esent at i on i s i mpor t ant and

23 t hat a deni al of sel f - r epr esent at i on, i f i t t ur ns out

24 t he def endant was reasonabl y capabl e of r epr esent i ng


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1 hi msel f , he doesn' t have t o be some per f ect hot shot

2 at t or ney but i f he' s r easonabl y capabl e and he want ed

3 t o r epr esent hi msel f and he was deni ed t hat , I r ecal l

4 a case t al ki ng about t hat wi l l not be vi ewed as a

5 har ml ess er r or and t hat ki nd of pi qued my i nt er est .

6 The addi t i onal t hi ng t hat t he cases t al k

7 about i s i f t he def endant appear s r easonabl y capabl e

8 under Far et t a, t hen Nevada j ur i s pr udence i s al so

9 i nt er est ed i n basi cal l y and t hese ar e my wor ds i s l ook

10 i f t he def endant i s r easonabl y capabl e under Far et t a

11 and i f he under st ands he coul d be t aki ng on - - he

12 coul d be maki ng a mi st ake, i f he under st ands t hat

13 r epr esent i ng hi msel f coul d end up backf i r i ng on hi m,

14 t hat ' s suf f i ci ent , as l ong as he knows t hat goi ng i n.

15 He doesn' t have t o be some gr eat l egal mi nd. He

16 doesn' t have t o be t he best or at or . He doesn' t have

17 t o al ways agr ee or di sagr ee wi t h what t he cour t does

18 but i f he' s r easonabl y capabl e of st andi ng up f or

19 hi msel f i n a cour t r oom. I f he knows what he' s get t i ng

20 i nt o and he knows t he r i sks, t hen he shoul d r epr esent

21 hi msel f .

22 Now, I woul d you know, echo t he concer ns t hat

23 I ' ve had and I t hi nk ot her s have had i n t hi s case t hat

24 t her e' s al ways, based on t he r ecor d i n Mr . Coughl i n' s


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1 conduct , t he r i sk t hat he' s goi ng t o be di sr upt i ve.

2 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor , i f I coul d

3 i nt er j ect , Mr . Lesl i e cont i nues t o make hear say

4 st at ement s wi t h r espect t o what ot her s ar e sayi ng.

5 THE COURT: Si r j ust st op. You ar e

6 i nt er r upt i ng r i ght now.

7 THE DEFENDANT: That sai d - -

8 THE COURT: Si r , do you underst and t hat ? You

9 ar e bei ng di sr upt i ve r i ght now and i f I do al l ow you

10 t o r epr esent your sel f , you wi l l not be abl e t o be

11 di sr upt i ve because t hen you wi l l be i n cont empt of

12 cour t ; do you under st and that ?


14 THE COURT: I ' m gi vi ng you a r i ght t o speak.

15 I ' m al so gi vi ng Mr . Lesl i e a r i ght t o speak. You may

16 di sagr ee wi t h what he says and you' l l be abl e t o

17 addr ess t hat when you make your cl osi ng argument . Al l

18 r i ght ?


20 THE COURT: Mr . Lesl i e, cont i nue.

21 MR. LESLI E: I f Mr . Coughl i n had been pat i ent

22 and al l owed me t o f i ni sh, what he woul d have heard me

23 say i s t he f ol l owi ng: That not wi t hst andi ng t hat

24 concer n about hi s di sr upt i ve behavi or i n t he past , one


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1 t hi ng t hat I ' ve not i ced i s he appear s, si nce t he l ast

2 hear i ng, t o be mor e ear nest l y i nt er est ed i n

3 r epr esent i ng hi msel f . I t hi nk he' s capabl e of

4 r est r ai ni ng hi msel f and obeyi ng t he cour t . I f you

5 al l ow hi m t o sel f r epr esent , t her e wi l l be t i mes when

6 we may speak out of t ur n but i t ' s my pr edi ct i on, j ust

7 based on what I per cei ve r i ght or wr ong, cor r ect l y or

8 i ncor r ectl y t o be hi s pr esent at t i t ude, i t ' s my

9 per cept i on t hat he' s mor e wi l l i ng t oday t han he has

10 been i n t he past t o r est r ai n hi msel f and t o conduct

11 hi msel f i n an appr opr i at e f ashi on i n cour t .

12 Now, al l of t hat bei ng sai d, I am appoi nt ed.

13 I f he want s t o r epr esent hi msel f , my t wo cent s i s l et

14 hi m but i f you t ur n t hat down, your Honor , t hen I wi l l

15 cer t ai nl y do my best at t r i al and cont i nue t o t r y t o

16 do a good j ob f or hi m. I woul d pr edi ct under t hat

17 scenar i o, t hat t her e wi l l cont i nue t o be hi m want i ng

18 cer t ai n thi ngs done and me sayi ng as t he assi gned

19 counsel , "That ' s not how i t ' s done, " but t hat ' s f or me

20 t o deal wi t h and not t he cour t .

21 Thank you.

22 THE COURT: Mr . Young?

23 MR. YOUNG: Your Honor , as a pr el i mi nar y

24 mat t er , i t ' s your ul t i mat e cal l . I don' t bel i eve - -


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1 say i f you do go f orwar d wi t h conduct i ng i n your

2 di scr et i on whet her t o gr ant hi s r equest t o r epr esent

3 hi msel f . That ' s your pur vi ew, not mi ne.

4 As I br ought up l ast t i me t hough, t he case

5 l aw i s ver y cl ear t hat an i ndi vi dual has an

6 unqual i f i ed r i ght t o r epr esent hi msel f i f i t ' s

7 vol unt ar i l y and i nt el l i gent l y made. I f t he r equest i s

8 made i n t hat r egar d but t hese cases are cl ear t hat

9 t her e ar e si t uat i ons wher e a cour t , i n i t s di scr et i on,

10 may deny a r equest f or sel f - r epr esent at i on and on

11 t hose basi s, I obj ect as I di d t he f i r st t i me t hi s

12 r equest was made.

13 One of t hem i s i f t he r equest i s unt i mel y,

14 t hat was f r om t he Lyon' s case. Ther e' s a handf ul of

15 cases. The f i r st case I not i ced was Lyon' s, i t ' s 106

16 Nevada 438, i t ' s a 1990 case and t hi s basi s has

17 car r i ed over t hr ough t he Tanksl ey case whi ch i s 113

18 Nevada, 997, a 1997 case and t he Vani si case whi ch

19 counsel r ef erenced, whi ch i s 117 Nevada 330 a 20011

20 opi ni on.

21 I n Lyon' s, t he cour t f ound t hat t he r equest

22 f or sel f - r epr esent at i on made t he day of t r i al was

23 unt i mel y, deni ed i t on t hat basi s f i ndi ng t hat i t

24 coul d have del ayed t he t r i al . The Supr eme Cour t , on


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1 appeal , af f i r med and uphel d t he t r i al cour t ' s deci si on

2 t o deny t he request .

3 I n t hi s case, we' r e mi dway t hr ough t he t r i al

4 so we' r e even beyond t he f i r st day of t r i al , and we

5 have evi dence t hat ' s been admi t t ed. We have t est i mony

6 t hat ' s been t aken, t hat ' s i n t he r ecor d. So we can' t

7 go back, r egar dl ess of whet her Mr . Coughl i n r epr esent s

8 hi msel f or not , and r edo t hat evi dence and t est i mony

9 t hat ' s i n t he r ecor d. So I woul d obj ect on t hat

10 ground.

11 The second basi s t hat a cour t can deny a

12 r equest f or sel f - r epr esent at i on i s i f t he r equest i s

13 equi vocal . I st i l l have not hear d a "Yes" or "No"

14 answer and even at t he very begi nni ng of t hi s when you

15 asked Mr . Coughl i n i f he want s t o r epr esent hi msel f ,

16 i t wasn' t a "Yes" or " No" . He gave an expl anat i on.

17 I ' m st i l l i nt er ested i n j ust a ver y s i mpl e, "Yes, I

18 want t o r epr esent mysel f . No, I don' t want t o

19 r epr esent mysel f , " or t he answer s we t ypi cal l y get

20 f r om Mr . Coughl i n whi ch i s some sor t of a wor dy answer

21 whi ch does not 100 percent say "Yes" or " No". I woul d

22 be i nt er est ed i n t hat and I t hi nk t hat ' s somet hi ng f or

23 you t o consi der .

24 Anot her basi s i s whet her t he r equest i s made


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1 sol el y f or pur poses of del ay. I cannot speak f or Mr .

2 Coughl i n obvi ousl y. I don' t know what hi s bases ar e

3 f or want i ng t o r epr esent hi msel f but I woul d ask t hat

4 t hat be somet hi ng t hat you consi der and possi bl y

5 i nqui r e of Mr . Coughl i n. We ar e set t o cont i nue t o

6 t r i al November 19t h at 8: 30 whi ch i s l ess t han one

7 mont h away.

8 The f our t h basi s i s whet her t he def endant i s

9 unabl e or unwi l l i ng t o abi de by r ul es of cour t r oom

10 pr ocedur e. Thi s i s l ai d out agai n i n t hose t hr ee

11 cases I ci t ed but most not abl y Tanksl ey and Vani si .

12 The r i ght t o r epr esent , your Honor yoursel f , your

13 Honor , does not al l ow a def endant t o engage i n

14 uncont r ol l abl e and di sr upt i ve behavi or i n t he

15 cour t r oom, t hat ' s out of Tanksl ey and what t hat case

16 al l ows you t o do, your Honor , i n det er mi ni ng

17 di srupt i on, i s t hat t he def endant ' s pr et r i al act i vi t y

18 i s rel evant i f i t af f or ds a str ong i ndi cat or t hat t he

19 def endant i s - - wi l l di sr upt t he pr oceedi ngs i n t he

20 cour t r oom and you may, agai n f r om Tanksl ey, not onl y

21 consi der hi s pr i or behavi or i n t hi s case but f r om t he

22 r el at ed cases t hat you' ve sat on.

23 Agai n, t hat ' s your cal l , your Honor , i f you

24 bel i eve he' s goi ng t o be di sr upt i ve. I cer t ai nl y


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1 t hi nk i t ' s a concer n, and I t hi nk i t ' s f r ankl y a bi g

2 concer n but agai n, t hat ' s your basi s.

3 Those ar e t he bases t hat a cour t , i n hi s

4 di scr et i on, may deny a r equest f or

5 sel f - r epr esent at i on. Even i f you f i nd hi m compet ent

6 t o go f orwar d, t hose ar e separ at e bases. Whet her you

7 f i nd hi m compet ent or not , t hat ' s ent i r el y your cal l ,

8 and I pl ay no par t i n t hat .

9 THE COURT: Mr . Lesl i e?

10 MR. LESLI E: Wel l , j ust t o r espond on a

11 coupl e of ver y l i mi t ed poi nt s, t he comment ar y we j ust

12 hear d about whet her or not t he request f or

13 sel f - r epr esent at i on i s made sol el y f or pur pose of

14 del ay and t hat ' s sor t of r el at ed t o t he i ssue of t he

15 t i mel i ness of t he r equest and j ust t o gi ve you some

16 backgr ound, t he r eason t hat we ent ered i nt o t he

17 st i pul at i on t o have t oday' s compet ency hear i ng and

18 t hen have t he t r i al be sever al weeks l at er i n

19 November , was f or t hat ver y r eason so t hat Mr .

20 Coughl i n woul d not be di sr upt i ng.

21 I n ot her words, i f we came back here t oday

22 and he was f ound competent and t hen he want ed t o sel f

23 r epr esent and you gr ant ed t hat , t hen he coul d j ump up

24 and say, " I need a cont i nuance t o pr epare. " We want ed


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1 t o avoi d t hat and t hat ' s why we spl i t t he mat t er out

2 wi t h t r i al i n November .

3 Then sor t of t he ot her si de of t hat same coi n

4 i s t o make sur e t hat Mr . Coughl i n has t he oppor t uni t y,

5 i f he' s al l owed t oday t o sel f r epr esent , t o r ecei ve

6 any handof f mat er i al s t hat I need t o gi ve hi m sor t of

7 as a counsel t o sel f r epr esent i ng counsel handof f j ust

8 l i ke what woul d happen i f anot her l awyer had been

9 hi r ed and I woul d need t o t r ansmi t document s t o t hat

10 new l awyer .

11 Al l I can t el l you, j udge, wi t h r egar d t o hi s

12 r i sk of bei ng di sr upt i ve i s my per cept i on, based on

13 what I per cei ve t o be hi s desi r e t o sel f r epr esent .

14 My per cept i on i s t hat he' s wi l l i ng t o r ei n i t i n. I

15 don' t di sagr ee wi t h Mr . Young but you shoul d r ecei ve a

16 cl ear "Yes" or "No" f r om Mr . Coughl i n about whet her he

17 want s t o sel f r epr esent .

18 I have a dut y of candor t o t hi s cour t , and I

19 woul d i ndi cat e t hat I t oo t hi nk t hat t hat cl ear answer

20 r emai ns t o be pr ovi ded and t hat ' s somethi ng t hat you

21 shoul d consi der i nqui r i ng of bef or e you make a f i nal

22 deci si on.

23 THE COURT: Mr . Coughl i n, you wi l l be al l owed

24 t o pr esent your own argument at t hi s t i me but bef or e


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1 you do so, I do have some pr el i mi nary quest i ons f or

2 you.

3 Number one, do you wi sh t o r epr esent

4 your sel f , si mpl y "Yes" or "No"?


6 THE COURT: Number t wo, t her e wi l l be no

7 cont i nuance of t he cour t dat e on November 19t h at 8: 30

8 A M; i s t here any r eason you cannot be pr epared t o

9 move f or war d as schedul ed on November 19t h at 8: 30 A

10 M?

11 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , your Honor , I ' ve

12 cer t ai nl y done a l ot of wor k on t hi s case l at el y, and

13 I ask that t he mat er i al s submi t t ed t o t hi s cour t l ast

14 week be i ncor por at ed her ei n by r ef er ence par t i cul ar l y

15 by t he ext ent t o whi ch t hey al er t t he cour t t o some

16 i ssues t hat - -

17 THE COURT: Wel l , I ' m aski ng you, si r - -

18 THE DEFENDANT: I have a hear i ng wi t h t he

19 St at e Bar t hat i s set f or November 14t h. I f I ' m t ol d

20 I have t o do i t , I ' l l put my game f ace on and show up

21 f or bot h of t hem and do i t but i t ' s a hear i ng wi t h t he

22 St at e Bar , i t ' s an S B N, i t ' s a 105 compl ai nt ,

23 i nvol ves a l ot of t hi ngs t hat I need t o addr ess her e

24 t oday, your Honor , speci f i cal l y somet hi ng I r ef er enced


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1 ear l i er .

2 I f you' r e t el l i ng me t her e wi l l be no

3 cont i nuance, t hen f i ne, I want t o do i t .

4 THE COURT: Si r , t hi s has not hi ng t o do wi t h

5 your St at e Bar hear i ng.

6 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , t hat r emai ns t o be

7 seen, your Honor . I bel i eve I deserve a chance t o

8 est abl i sh t hat .

9 Wi t h r espect t o t he sel f - r epr esent at i on

10 argument s put f orward by Mr . Young, under Pope V

11 St at e, Mr . Young f ai l ed t o oppose any mot i on f or me t o

12 appear as my own counsel . Mr . Young di d f i l e a

13 f ugi t i ve document af t er bei ng awar e of an or der f or a

14 competency eval uat i on bei ng ent ered whi ch i s a

15 vi ol at i on of NRS- 178. 40f i ve.

16 Fur t her , Mr . Young at t empt ed - -

17 THE COURT: I di d not consi der any mot i on

18 f i l ed af t er t he or der f or your compet ency eval uat i on.

19 THE DEFENDANT: I ' m t al ki ng about

20 Febr uar y 27t h at 2: 55 f i l e stamped opposi t i on i n t hi s

21 case t o my Febr uary 15t h mot i on, and you di d consi der

22 i t , your Honor , at t he pr evi ous t r i al dat e. Any

23 document f i l ed by Mr . Young, t hat or der - - I need t o

24 go i nt o t hi s, your Honor . Febr uar y 27t h t her e was


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1 a - -

2 THE COURT: Wel l , si r , I t hi nk you' r e not

3 answer i ng t he i ssue bef ore us t oday and t hat ' s whet her

4 or not you are compet ent , not whether or not Mr . Young

5 di d somet hi ng i mpr oper , not whet her or not Mr . Lesl i e

6 di d somet hi ng i mpr oper .

7 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , he' s ar gui ng t hi s al l

8 t hi s Tanksl ey and al l t hi s stuf f .

9 THE COURT: No. I ' m aski ng you t o addr ess t he

10 i ssue of whet her or not you' r e compet ent t o r epr esent

11 your sel f , not t o ar gue your case.

12 THE DEFENDANT: You l et Mr . Young make al l

13 t hi s argument - -

14 THE COURT: The onl y t hi ng t hat he argued - -

15 si r , what he ar gued was t i mel i ness, whet her or not you

16 had gi ven a si mpl e "Yes" or "No" answer t o r epr esent

17 your sel f , whet her t hi s woul d del ay t he t r i al and

18 whet her or not you woul d engage i n uncont r ol l abl e or

19 di sr upt i ve behavi or .

20 So t hose ar e t he i ssues t hat I want you t o

21 addr ess and otherwi se, I have no quest i on about your

22 i nt el l ect ual abi l i t y. You don' t have t o demonst r at e

23 i t f or me her e t oday by ar gui ng about t he l aw or

24 whet her or not Mr . Young has done somet hi ng i mproper


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1 bef or e. The i ssue i s whet her or not you wi l l be abl e

2 t o r epr esent your sel f .

3 THE DEFENDANT: Mr . Young has ci t ed l egal

4 aut hor i t y t oday Tanksl ey and made l egal argument t hat

5 t he cour t al l owed hi m t o make.

6 THE COURT: Cor r ect .

7 THE DEFENDANT: Rel at ed t o Tanksl ey and t he

8 t i mel i ness of t hi s, t he ext ent t o whi ch he has

9 pr evi ousl y opposed i t and al l t hese ar gument s I ' m

10 maki ng go di r ect l y t o r ebut t he ar gument s t hat Mr .

11 Young has made. To t he ext ent t hey br i ng t o l i ght

12 mat t er s t hat ar e uncomf or t abl e t o t he Publ i c

13 Def ender ' s Of f i ce wi t h r espect t o t he pot ent i al

14 mi sconduct i n t hi s case, shoul d not pr ecl ude me f r om

15 bei ng abl e t o addr ess t hese i ssues.

16 Under Pope V St at e, i f t he St at e does not

17 oppose a mot i on, I shoul d wi n on t hat mot i on. Fi l i ng

18 a f ugi t i ve document dur i ng the pendency of a

19 compet ency eval uat i on on Febr uary 27t h f i l ed st amped

20 at 2: 55 P. M. - -

21 THE COURT: Okay, l et ' s make t hi s cl ear . I ' m

22 t al ki ng about t oday, not Febr uar y.

23 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , but t hat goes t o t he

24 t i mel i ness t hough. Fur t her t o t he ext ent t hat I was a


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1 l i censed at t or ney - -

2 THE COURT: Al l r i ght , si r , l et me make i t

3 t hi s even easi er . The t i mel i ness i ssue, t o me, i s not

4 an i ssue i f you ar e pr epar ed t o go f or war d on

5 November 19t h at 8: 30 A. M. because i t wi l l not del ay

6 anyt hi ng i f I al l ow you t o r epr esent your sel f but i f

7 you, by r epr esent i ng your sel f , ar e not goi ng t o be

8 abl e t o go f or war d on 11/ 19, t hen i t i s an i ssue. So

9 why don' t you addr ess t hat .

10 THE DEFENDANT: I ' l l be abl e t o go f orward.


12 Number t wo i s whet her or not you' r e goi ng t o

13 engage i n uncont r ol l abl e or di sr upt i ve behavi or and by

14 t hat what I mean i s i f you go f or war d, I wi l l hol d you

15 st r i ct l y t o t he nor mal cour t decor um whi ch i s t hat

16 when Mr . Young i s exami ni ng a wi t ness, f or exampl e,

17 you do not i nt er r upt . When a wi t ness i s speaki ng, you

18 do not i nt er r upt except t o pose a l egal obj ect i on.

19 When you cal l a wi t ness, t he same r ul es wi l l appl y t o

20 you. You wi l l not be abl e t o t est i f y. By t hat , I

21 mean make ar guments whi l e you ar e exami ni ng a wi t ness

22 or speaki ng as an at t orney when you' r e.

23 On t he st and, of cour se, you' l l be abl e t o

24 t est i f y i f you wi sh t o t est i f y but ot her wi se, you wi l l


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1 Washoe Count y Publ i c Def ender hel d a st at us conf erence

2 t hat t hey had not i ced me on.

3 THE COURT: Mr . Young does not prosecut e i n

4 Muni Cour t so I don' t know what st atus conf er ence he

5 hel d i n Muni ci pal Cour t .

6 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , I t hi nk t hat ' s a

7 r el evant i nqui r y t he ext ent t o whi ch Mr . Young, publ i c

8 def ender s and t he Di st r i ct At t or ney' s Of f i ce

9 communi cat ed wi t h J udge Dorot hy Nash Hol mes pr i or t o

10 our r et ur ni ng t o Muni cour t and hol di ng a t r i al

11 despi t e t he pendency of an order f or a competency

12 eval uat i on t hat day.

13 Mr . Young at t empt ed t o hol d a t r i al i n t hi s

14 case on May 7t h despi t e - - i t was onl y May 9t h when

15 J udge El l i ot t r et urned CR12- 0376 back t o J ust i ce

16 Cour t .

17 THE COURT: Si r , I ' m si mpl y t el l i ng you t hat

18 i f I do or der t hat you r epr esent your sel f , you wi l l

19 not be abl e t o engage i n di sr upt i ve behavi or ; do you

20 under st and t hat ?

21 THE DEFENDANT: I under st and t hat , your

22 Honor .

23 THE COURT: And do you underst and t hat

24 di sr upt i ve behavi or i ncl udes speaki ng out of t ur n?


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1 THE DEFENDANT: I do, si r .

2 THE COURT: I nt er r upt i ng counsel ,

3 i nt er r upt i ng wi t nesses, t est i f yi ng when you ar e act i ng

4 as an at t orney?

5 THE DEFENDANT: I do, si r . Lat el y, I ' ve

6 t aken a gr eat deal of ef f or t t o get bet t er at t r i al

7 pr act i ce wi t h r espect t o not maki ng argument dur i ng my

8 quest i oni ng and bet t er compar t ment al i zi ng t he

9 di f f er ent par t s of a t r i al , wher eas pr evi ousl y t hose

10 had bl ed t o i nt o one anot her . I ' ve l i st ened t o t he

11 evi ct i on mat t er sever al t i mes and I ' ve l ear ned f r om

12 that.

13 THE COURT: Wel l , per f ect i on i s not r equi r ed

14 but i nt er r upt i on i s si mpl e. So per haps aski ng an

15 i mpr oper quest i on i s a l i t t l e bi t di f f er ent because

16 Mr . Young can obj ect , and I can sust ai n t he obj ect i on

17 but i f you i nt er r upt hi m or a wi t ness or engage i n

18 argument dur i ng t i me when you' r e supposed t o be aski ng

19 quest i ons, t hen t hat woul d be di sr upt i ve; under st ood?

20 THE DEFENDANT: I under st and, your Honor , and

21 i f I coul d j ust qui ckl y addr ess t he ext ent t o whi ch

22 Mr . Young has pur por t ed case l aw al l ows you t o

23 consi der ot her mat t er s beyond t hi s proceedi ng and t hi s

24 anal ysi s, I woul d obj ect t o t he ext ent t hat I was - -


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1 THE COURT: I ' m consi der i ng t hi s mat t er , si r .

2 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , but pr evi ousl y on t he

3 r ecor d, you' ve r ef er enced evi ct i on mat t er s.

4 THE COURT: I di d and I wi l l t el l you t hi s,

5 you don' t even need t o go any f ur t her because I ' m

6 goi ng t o gr ant your r equest . However , I ' m goi ng t o

7 appoi nt Mr . Lesl i e as st andby counsel . I f you di sr upt

8 t he pr oceedi ngs i n any way, not onl y wi l l I hol d you

9 i n cont empt but I wi l l have hi m f i ni sh t he t r i al ; do

10 you underst and t hat ?


12 THE COURT: And I wi l l f ur t her or der i f you

13 pr epar e a pr oper mot i on I n For ma Pauper i s t hat you' l l

14 be abl e t o subpoena wi t nesses wi t hout expense and - -


16 i nt er j ect , woul d t hat ext end t o Subpoena Duces Tecum

17 as wel l ?

18 THE COURT: I t wi l l except we have no f und t o

19 pay f or t he wi t ness f ees so t hat i s - - I wi l l enabl e

20 you t o subpoena wi t nesses. I don' t know how we

21 compensat e t hem.

22 THE DEFENDANT: I woul d i magi ne t he Washoe

23 Count y Publ i c Def ender has some means of doi ng that .

24 MR. LESLI E: I f he' s goi ng t o r epr esent


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1 hi msel f , he doesn' t di p i nt o our publ i c f unds.

2 THE DEFENDANT: You haven' t spent a di me on

3 me yet .

4 THE COURT: Si r , I am goi ng t o al l ow you t o

5 subpoena wi t nesses, and you need to get cr acki ng on

6 t hat so you get i t done.

7 THE DEFENDANT: I t ' s my underst andi ng t hat ' s

8 a r i ght of mi ne as a cr i mi nal def endant t o be abl e t o

9 subpoena wi t nesses.

10 THE COURT: I t i s, t he onl y t hi ng I ' m

11 al l owi ng you t o subpoena t hem wi t hout advanci ng t he

12 f ees.

13 THE DEFENDANT: Okay.

14 THE COURT: I may, at a l ater poi nt , or der

15 t hat you pay t hose f ees but i n t he meant i me, I wi l l

16 al l ow you t o subpoena wi t nesses wi t hout advanci ng t he

17 f ees.

18 THE DEFENDANT: Al l r i ght , yes, si r , and your

19 Honor , I woul d j ust pr eser ve my obj ect i on t hat t he

20 Washoe Count y Publ i c Def ender shoul d have t o pay.

21 THE COURT: I t ' s not an obj ect i on, si r .

22 THE DEFENDANT: Or make a mot i on t hat t he

23 Washoe Count y Publ i c Def ender ' s - -

24 THE COURT: Wel l , you can make a wr i t t en


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1 mot i on separ at el y f r om t oday' s pr oceedi ng.

2 MR. LESLI E: So now I get t o l i t i gat e wi t h

3 hi m? Ser i ousl y, your Honor , i s t hat what we' r e doi ng?

4 THE COURT: No. I n f act , on r econsi der at i on,

5 you cannot do t hat .

6 THE DEFENDANT: I ' m sor r y, your Honor what?

7 THE COURT: You cannot argue as t o t he Publ i c

8 Def ender payi ng t he f ees. You' r e choosi ng t o

9 r epr esent your sel f .

10 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, si r , your Honor .

11 THE COURT: So at a l at er poi nt i n t i me, I

12 wi l l det er mi ne your f i nanci al abi l i t y t o pay t he

13 wi t ness f ees.

14 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, si r , and woul d t hat al so

15 ext end t o t he Subpoena Duces Tecum f ees as wel l ?

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 THE DEFENDANT: Transcr i pt , you r ef erenced a

18 t r anscr i pt ?

19 THE COURT: No, I ' ve al r eady deni ed t hat .

20 THE DEFENDANT: Okay but when you r ef er enced

21 one, you wer en' t r ef er r i ng t o t hat has or wi l l be

22 pr epar ed i n t hi s mat t er ? I suppose you wer e r ef er r i ng

23 t o t he audi o.

24 THE COURT: There' s no t r anscr i pt pr epar ed,


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1 no, t he same t hi ng we have f ur ni shed t o you, si r ,

2 whi ch i s t he di sk.


4 THE COURT: We have no t r anscr i pt .

5 THE DEFENDANT: And, your Honor , i f I coul d

6 j ust preser ve or make a mot i on f or t he r ecor d t he

7 ext ent t o whi ch you have pr evi ousl y i ndi cat ed t hat

8 your r ul i ng on t he mot i on t o suppr ess i s not f i nal ,

9 t hat i t i s open t o f ur t her i nqui r y and I woul d submi t

10 t hat I shoul d be af f or ded a r i ght t o l i t i gat e t hat ,

11 your Honor , par t i cul ar l y gi ven t he pr ej udi ce t o t hi s

12 mat t er and hopef ul l y - -

13 THE COURT: Si r , you wi l l have t he r i ght t o

14 obj ect dur i ng t he bal ance of t hese pr oceedi ngs t o any

15 t est i mony whi ch i ncl udes t hi ngs t hat have not been

16 r esol ved by t he cour t , however , t he mot i on to suppr ess

17 i f you bel i eve t hat i t was not a f i nal deci si on, you

18 wi l l need t o pr esent t he cour t - - you have t he

19 t r anscr i pt .


21 THE COURT: So you can t ype out t hat sect i on

22 of i t and pr ovi de i t t o t he cour t .

23 THE DEFENDANT: I n t hat r egard, your Honor ,

24 may I be af f or ded t he seal ed por t i ons of t hat


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1 t hat t he mot i on t o suppr ess was not f i nal .

2 THE COURT: I sai d i f you pr esent me wi t h

3 evi dence of t hat , I wi l l consi der i t at t he

4 appr opr i at e t i me.

5 MR. YOUNG: Your Honor , I need t o set a

6 r ecor d now.

7 When we had t he mot i on t o suppress, you

8 act ual l y gr ant ed i n par t t he mot i on. Ther e was

9 cer t ai n evi dence t hat you excl uded f r om t he t r i al t hat

10 at t r i al , we di d not admi t based on your r i l e r ul i ng.

11 However , you deni ed, i n par t , t he mot i on t o suppr ess.

12 To my knowl edge, you di d not - - t hat was not an

13 equi vocal or der . So i f Mr . Coughl i n want s t o f i l e a

14 mot i on t o suppor t t hat i t was equi vocal , t hat ' s f i ne

15 but i t ' s my under st andi ng i t was a f i nal or der t hat

16 you made i n t he mot i on t o suppress.

17 THE COURT: Wel l , t hat ' s my underst andi ng as

18 wel l , but Mr . Coughl i n i ndi cat ed t hat he has some

19 l anguage i n t he pr i or r ul i ng of t he cour t t hat made i t

20 equi vocal . So i t ' s up t o you t o pr esent t hat wi t h

21 ki ndl y not i ced t o t he Di st r i ct At t or ney and i t has t o

22 be i n t i me f or hi m t o r espond i n t he pr oper f or mat .

23 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, si r . I f I may make a

24 mot i on t o have t he t r anscr i pt pr epar ed?


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1 THE COURT: You can' t make a mot i on t oday. A

2 mot i on t o what ?

3 THE DEFENDANT: Have t he t r anscr i pt prepared

4 at publ i c expense?

5 THE COURT: Deni ed. You have a copy of t he

6 di sk. I mean, what you' r e t al ki ng about i s pr obabl y

7 one or t wo paragr aphs.


9 THE COURT: Whi ch you can t ype out .

10 Anyt hi ng el se?

11 MR. LESLI E: The onl y r emai ni ng t hi ng, your

12 Honor , i s what I ' l l do i s cer t ai nl y bef or e t he end of

13 t he week, hopef ul l y by t omor r ow, I ' l l e- mai l Mr .

14 Coughl i n and we' l l make ar r angement s f or hi m t o pi ck

15 up mat er i al s such as copi es of di sks of var i ous

16 r ecor di ngs t hat he I t hi nk want s t o t r y t o pr of er i nt o

17 evi dence, an addi t i onal handof f copy of pol i ce r epor t s

18 and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . We have an ongoi ng di sput e

19 about whet her he ever r ecei ved hi s di scover y or not

20 but now t hat he' s t aki ng over hi s own counsel , I t hi nk

21 a cour t esy wi t hi n t he l egal i ndust r y i s t hat I gi ve

22 hi m a copy of ever ythi ng t hat he mi ght need f or t r i al

23 r egar dl ess of whet her he' s pr evi ousl y r ecei ved i t .

24 THE DEFENDANT: And I ' d ask t hat i t be


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1 pr esent ed di gi t al l y by e- mai l or f ax and t her ef or e,

2 t her e wi l l be no di sput e i n t hat r egar d.

3 MR. LESLI E: I f he can qui t , I ' l l f i ni sh my

4 wor ds.

5 THE COURT: Si r , you' r e i nt er r upt i ng. I t ol d

6 you t hat I woul d hol d you i n cont empt of cour t i f you

7 i nt er r upt . I don' t know how t o make i t any cl ear er .

8 Thi s i s t he l ast t i me I wi l l advi se you; i s t hat

9 underst ood?



12 Mr . Lesl i e?

13 MR. LESLI E: And I ' l l say t hi s I di d pr ovi de

14 hi m some mat er i al s by way of PDF and t hat ' s act ual l y

15 not a bad i dea. So I ' l l t ake hi m on hi s suggest i on on

16 t hat . The onl y except i on t o t hat mi ght be some of

17 t hese vi deo di sks or audi o di sks, we' l l make an

18 at t empt but when t he t i me comes i f we can' t t r ansmi t

19 ever yt hi ng by e- mai l at t achment , I ' l l l et hi m know

20 whi ch i t ems ar e avai l abl e f or pi ckup and i t wi l l be

21 hi s r esponsi bi l i t y t o pi ck t hose up f r om our of f i ce.

22 I ' m not goi ng t o get i n a pi ssi ng mat ch wi t h

23 hi m over t he next sever al weeks about whether or not

24 he' s recei ved document . I ' l l document t hat by e- mai l .


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1 The bur den wi l l be on hi m and he can get t hose.

2 So we' l l do t he handof f and he can pr epare

3 hi s t r i al . Then I ' l l be back her e on t he 19t h and

4 I ' l l si t i n t he audi ence i n case i s hel d i n cont empt

5 or i s ot her wi se unabl e t o act ual l y r epr esent hi msel f .

6 We had previ ousl y opposed appoi nt ment as

7 st andby counsel . I t hi nk t her e ar e a l ot of good

8 pol i cy r easons f or t hat especi al l y i n a case l i ke t hi s

9 but I wi l l be back her e on t he 19t h as or der ed by t he

10 cour t . Unl ess t her e' s anyt hi ng f ur t her , we woul d ask

11 t o be abl e t o be excused.

12 THE COURT: You may be.

13 MR. YOUNG: Your Honor , bef ore he' s excused,

14 we have anot her day t hat ' s set f or t oday f or a st at us

15 hear i ng t hat Mr . Lesl i e does r epr esent hi m on.

16 THE COURT: Oh, yeah. You do need t o st ay

17 t hen because I ' m not r ul i ng on t hat case. I t hi nk

18 t hat ' s up t o J udge Cl i f t on, i t ' s anot her depar t ment

19 but i t i s bef or e me f or a possi bl e pl ea.

20 Mr . Coughl i n?

21 THE DEFENDANT: Ther e i s one i mpor t ant

22 mat t er , your Honor , addi t i onal l y i s t hat t he ext ent t o

23 whi ch Mr . Lesl i e and t he pr evi ous publ i c def ender s

24 have i nsi st ed upon r edact i ng mat er i al s t hat ar e of


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1 mater i al r el evance t o my def ense i ncl udi ng t he phone

2 number s of t he 911 cal l s so that I can say t he

3 i dent i t y of i ndi vi dual I deem U F C guy i n var i ous - -

4 THE COURT: The what , t he U F C?

5 MR. LESLI E: I t hi nk I can addr ess t hat .

6 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , I ' d l i ke t o addr ess i t .

7 Mr . Lesl i e has r ef used t o pr ovi de me r esul t s

8 of a subpoena of Mr . Gobl e' s cal l r ecor ds dur i ng t he

9 ni ght or t he number s of t he 911 di spat ch r ecor ds

10 maki ng i t i mpossi bl e f or me t o ascer t ai n t he i dent i t y

11 of t he i ndi vi dual , Mr . Gobl e i dent i f i es t he most

12 physi cal l y aggr essi ve wi t h Coughl i n on t hat ni ght .

13 These ar e al l of mat er i al r el evance. I need

14 t o know who made what cal l and when and who t hose

15 account s bel ong t o, t o t he ext ent t hat t hey

16 necessar i l y i mpeach t he t est i mony of t hese wi t nesses.

17 Thi s has been made i nordi natel y di f f i cul t t o t he

18 extent t hat Mr . Lesl i e has r ef used t o pr ovi de me a

19 physi cal copy of Mr . Gobl e' s cal l r ecor ds as he

20 apparent l y has subpoenaed. Even wher e say the 911

21 di spat ch cal l s have been pr opounded, t he numbers

22 at t ached t o t hose cal l s have been r edacted.

23 Fur t her , I bel i eve t he St at e shoul d be

24 r equi r ed t o pr opound t o me di scover y and pot ent i al l y


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1 excul pat or y mat er i al s t hat have been wi t hhel d

2 speci f i cal l y di spat ch r ecor di ngs f r om t hat ni ght ,

3 ot her 911 cal l s t hat upon i nf or mat i on and bel i ef wer e

4 made by ot her i ndi vi dual s i ncl udi ng but not l i mi t ed t o

5 Tanner Chan.

6 THE COURT: Okay, si r , as t o what t he St ate

7 needs t o do or not , you' l l have t o make a pr oper

8 di scover y mot i on f or t hat .

9 As t o counsel , I wi l l hear f r om hi m as t o

10 what i t i s t hat - -

11 MR. LESLI E: And I ' m happy t o di scl ose t hi s

12 your Honor . We had subpoenaed t he cel l phone r ecords

13 of Mr . Gobl e and t hose cont ai n several pages of

14 ent r i es t o t ext messagi ng, dat a acqui si t i on and

15 t el ephone cal l s.

16 Ther e' s a comparat i vel y narr ow number of l i ne

17 ent r i es t hat act ual l y appl y t o t he r ough t i mef r ames

18 i nvol ved i n t hi s case when t he cel l phone was

19 al l egedl y t aken. I di d - - I ' l l be ver y candi d. I di d

20 r ef use t o pr ovi de t hose document s t o Mr . Coughl i n

21 because i t was my bel i ef , at t he t i me, t hat he woul d

22 abuse t hat i nf or mat i on and cont act peopl e i n t hose

23 r ecor ds whose phone numbers are di scl osed by vi r t ue of

24 t hose phone numbers bei ng i n t hose r ecor ds. I made


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1 t hat det er mi nat i on. I t hi nk i t was a sound deci si on

2 at t he t i me. I don' t have any pr obl em pr oduci ng hi m

3 an unr edact ed copy of t hat . I f he' s goi ng t o act as

4 counsel , t hen he' s subj ect t o di sci pl i ne and he' s

5 subj ect t o cont empt and he may be subj ect t o ci vi l

6 l i abi l i t y i f he abuses t hose number s i n any way but I

7 was not , as an of f i cer of t he cour t , wi l l i ng t o t ur n

8 t hem over t o hi m when he was my cl i ent .

9 THE COURT: Al l r i ght , si r , wel l t hat answer s

10 t he quest i on. You wi l l r ecei ve t hem, however , wi t h

11 t he caveat t hat i f you har ass t hose peopl e or do

12 anyt hi ng ot her t han what a nor mal at t orney coul d do

13 wi t h r espect t o cont act , t hen you coul d be i n cont empt

14 of cour t or i n vi ol at i on of t he l aw, ci vi l or

15 cr i mi nal ; do you under st and t hat ?

16 THE DEFENDANT: I under st and t hat , your

17 Honor . I al so underst and t here' s a 6t h Amendment

18 Ri ght t o conf r ont at i on and I bel i eve t he ext ent - -

19 THE COURT: Conf r ont at i on wi t h t he wi t nesses

20 agai nst you, not t hi r d par t i es t hat ar e not wi t nesses

21 agai nst you.

22 THE DEFENDANT: Wel l , cer t ai nl y a def endant

23 has an oppor t uni t y t o i nt er vi ew mat er i al wi t nesses.

24 THE COURT: That ' s t r ue but you' r e t al ki ng


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1 about conf r ont at i on, si r . Conf r ont at i on onl y appl i es

2 t o t he wi t nesses agai nst you.

3 THE DEFENDANT: Poi nt t aken, your Honor .

4 Wel l , t o t he wi t nesses - -

5 THE COURT: Yes, t hat ' s what conf r ont at i on

6 i s. Your ri ght t o conf r ont at i on.

7 THE DEFENDANT: And when you speak of t hi r d

8 par t i es, you mean t hose who have not been wi t nesses?

9 THE COURT: Not subpoenaed or wi t nesses i n

10 t hi s t r i al and t hen t he mat er i al i t y appl i es as t o

11 whet her or not t hei r pot ent i al t est i mony i s mat er i al

12 t o an i ssue t hat i s mat er i al i n t hi s case.

13 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, si r , your Honor . And so

14 t o cl ar i f y - -

15 THE COURT: I mean, i t ' s r el evant t o a

16 mat er i al i ssue i n t hi s case.

17 THE DEFENDANT: To cl ar i f y, your Honor , Mr .

18 Lesl i e i s t o pr oduce t o me unr edact ed ver si ons of al l

19 t hat pr opounded by t he St at e i ncl udi ng t he 911

20 di spat ch l ogs.

21 THE COURT: What he r ecei ved f r om t he St at e.

22 MR. LESLI E: They weren' t pr oduced by t he

23 St at e. We subpoenaed t hem.

24 THE COURT: Wai t , we' r e t al ki ng about t wo


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1 separ at e t hi ngs.

2 MR. LESLI E: Mr . Coughl i n, you ar e so out of

3 l i ne and of f base i t ' s l aughabl e.

4 THE DEFENDANT: How so? Your Honor , t hat ' s

5 pr ej udi ci al - -

6 THE COURT: Si r , l et ' s st op ar gui ng.

7 MR. LESLI E: I f you order me t o pr oduce t hem,

8 I ' l l pr oduce t hem but I onl y want t o do i t i f you

9 order me, I have t o be honest .

10 THE COURT: I ' m order i ng you t o pr oduce what

11 was f ur ni shed t o you by t he St at e, number one.

12 MR. LESLI E: Let me cl ar i f y and t hat wi l l be

13 done because al l di scover y mat er i al s wi l l be handed

14 o f f .

15 THE COURT: And number t wo, what you agr eed

16 t o ear l i er was t he unr edact ed subpoenaed i nf or mat i on

17 t hat he has been warned i s not t o be used i n any way

18 ot her t han f or pur poses of t hi s t r i al f or somet hi ng

19 t hat i s r el evant t o a mat er i al i ssue i n t hi s t r i al .

20 MR. LESLI E: And wi t h t hat under st andi ng, I

21 wi l l pr oduce t hose i n unr edact ed f or m as wel l .


23 THE DEFENDANT:

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