1 case no. crim 24552 · 2 a. 3507 different method on june the 5th than you normally do? i can...
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CASE NO. CRIM 24552
SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE ) OF CALIFORNIA, )
) PLAINTIFF, )
) -VS- )
) KEVIN COOPER, )
) DEFENDANT. )
--------------------)
SUPERIOR COURT NO. CR-72787
MOTIONS
10 APPEAL FROM THE SUPERIOR COURT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY
11 HONORABLE RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE PRESIDING
12 REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT ON APPEAL
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14 APPEARANCES:
15 FOR PLAINTIFF-RESPONDENT: HON. JOHN D. VAN DE KAMP ATTORNEY GENERAL DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 110 WEST "A" STREET
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SU ITE 600 SAN DIEGO, CA 92101
19 I FOR DEFENDANT -APPELLANT: IN PROPRIA PERSONA
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REPORTED BY: LEONARD D. GUNN C.S.R. NO. 1109
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VOLUME ZiF OF ..!I:!:!..
AND JUDITH L. MORRIS C • S • R. NO • 2" 0 0 OFFICIAL REPORTERS
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CASE NO. CRIM 24552
SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE ) OF CALIFORNIA, )
) PLAINTIFF, )
) -VS- )
) KEVIN COOPER, )
) DEFENDANT. )
--------------------------)
SUPERIOR COURT NO. CR-72787
MOTIONS
10 APPEAL FROM THE SUPERIOR COURT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY
11 HONORABLE RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE PRESIDING
12 REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT ON APPEAL
13
14 APPEARANCES:
15 FOR PLAINTIFF-RESPONDENT: HON. JOHN D. VAN DE KAMP ATTORNEY GENERAL DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 110 WEST "A" STREET
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SU ITE 600 SAN DIEGO, CA 92101
19 I FOR DEFENDANT -APPELLANT: IN PROPRIA PERSONA
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REPORTED BY: LEONARD D. GUNN C.S.R. NO. 1109
,.-
VOLUME ZiF OF ..!I:!:!..
AND JUDITH L. MORRIS C • S • R. NO • 2" 0 0 OFFICIAL REPORTERS
26 l __ P_AG_E_S--~--_~--TH_R_OU_G_H_~--~_1--------~-----------____ ~ . I.
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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
KEVIN COOPER,
Defendant.
} ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
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NO. OCR-93l9
c(l-'~"7 VOLUME 35 Pgs. 3 r 02 thru 3624, incl.
REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT
BEFORE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
DEPARTHENT 10 - SAN BERNARDINO, CALIFOR.J."UA
APPEAP.rlNCES:
e'~r the People:
For the Defendant:
Reported by:
Thursday, June 14, 1984
DENNIS KOTTMEIER District Attorney
DENNIS KOTTMEI~R District Attorney By: JOHN P. KOCHIS Deputy District Attorney
DAVID McKENNA Public Defender By: DAVID NEGUS Deputy Public Defender
LEONARD D. GUNN Official Reporter C.S.R. No. 1109
and JUDITH L. r-iORRIS Official Reporter C.S.R. No. 2400
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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
KEVIN COOPER,
Defendant.
} ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
-------------------------)
NO. OCR-93l9
c(l-'~"7 VOLUME 35 Pgs. 3 r 02 thru 3624, incl.
REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT
BEFORE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
DEPARTHENT 10 - SAN BERNARDINO, CALIFOR.J."UA
APPEAP.rlNCES:
e'~r the People:
For the Defendant:
Reported by:
Thursday, June 14, 1984
DENNIS KOTTMEIER District Attorney
DENNIS KOTTMEI'ER District Attorney By: JOHN P. KOCHIS Deputy District Attorney
DAVID McKENNA Public Defender By: DAVID NEGUS Deputy Public Defender
LEONARD D. GUNN Official Reporter C.S.R. No. 1109
and JUDITH L. r-iORRIS Official Reporter C.S.R. No. 2400
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3 tVITNESS PAGE
4 DAVID C. STOCKWELL
5 Direct Examination Resumed by Mr. Negus 3502
6 Direct Examination Resumed by Mr. Negus . 3562
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12 I N D E X T 0 E X H I BIT S - - --,r~, 13
14 EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION IN EVIDENCE
15 H-16 Diagram 3562 r, U
16 H-244 Photograph 3522 , 17 H-287 Photograph 3529 , "18 H-288 Diagram 3545
" 19 H-289 Diagram 3598 U 20
" 21 S-21 Photograph 3599 U 22 0 23 --000-- :I 24 , 25
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3 tVITNESS PAGE
4 DAVID C. STOCKWELL
5 Direct Examination Resumed by Mr. Negus 3502
6 Direct Examination Resumed by Mr. Negus . 3562
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14 EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION IN EVIDENCE
15 H-16 Diagram 3562 r, U
16 H-244 Photograph 3522 , 17 H-287 Photograph 3529 , "18 H-288 Diagram 3545
" 19 H-289 Diagram 3598 U 20
" 21 S-21 Photograph 3599 U 22 0 23 --000-- :I 24 , 25
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0-1 3502
1 SAN BERNARDINO, CALIFORNIA: THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 1984; 9:33 A.M.
2 DEPARTMENT NO. 10
3 APPEARANCES:
HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
4 The Defendant with his Counsel, DAVID NEGUS,
5 Deputy Public Defender of San Bernardino
6 County; DENNIS KOTTMEIER, District Attorney
7 of San Bernardino County, and JOHN P. KOCHIS,
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Deputy District Attorney of San Bernardino
County, representing the People of the State
of California.
(Leonard D. Gunn, C.S.R., Official Reporter, C-1l09,
Judith L. Morris, C.S.R., Official Reporter, C-2400.)
THE COURT: Good morning. Everybody is present.
David Stockwell is still on the stand, still under oath.
Mr. Negus has the witness.
D A V I D C. ~ ! Q ~ ! ~ ~ ~~, having been previously
duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. NEGUS:
~ Showing you again H-79, do you recall now taking any
blood from the door where the 35 is riqht in front of?
26 A. There is a door there that hinges, and that door I did
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0-1 3502
1 SAN BERNARDINO, CALIFORNIA: THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 1984; 9:33 A.M.
2 DEPARTMENT NO. 10
3 APPEARANCES:
HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
4 The Defendant with his Counsel, DAVID NEGUS,
5 Deputy Public Defender of San Bernardino
6 County; DENNIS KOTTMEIER, District Attorney
7 of San Bernardino County, and JOHN P. KOCHIS,
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Deputy District Attorney of San Bernardino
County, representing the People of the State
of California.
(Leonard D. Gunn, C.S.R., Official Reporter, C-1l09,
Judith L. Morris, C.S.R., Official Reporter, C-2400.)
THE COURT: Good morning. Everybody is present.
David Stockwell is still on the stand, still under oath.
~1r. Negus has the wi tness.
D A V I D C. ~ ! Q ~ ! ~ ~ ~~, having been previously
duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. NEGUS:
~ Showing you again H-79, do you recall now taking any
blood from the door where the 35 is riqht in front of?
26 A. There is a door there that hinges, and that door I did
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3503
take blood samples from.
But that was the left side, right?
It was that door. That's what I recall taking it from.
That's the way I listed it in my notes.
By door, are you talking about the set of two panels or
the actual panel that the 35 is in front of?
The way my notes read, those two panels are a single
door and that's the door that I spoke of in my notes.
Showing you H-83, a photograph of a wall unit with a
36, did you put the 36 in that photograph?
Yes.
Where on that unit did you take blood from?
If I recall, the blood was taken fro~ the left dresser
unit there.
Can you show me where?
The particular spots, no.
On your notes, it says shelves; is that right?
That whole unit was a dresser, shelves, bookcase.
It says blood sample from wall shelves, right?
Yes.
And shelves means drawers?
As I said, that whole unit appeared as one unit.
So it could have been from anywhere on the unit?
Conceivably, yes.
Do you remember whether you took it from more than one
spot on the unit?
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take blood samples from.
But that was the left side, right?
It was that door. That's what I recall taking it from.
That's the way I listed it in my notes.
By door, are you talking about the set of two panels or
the actual panel that the 35 is in front of?
The way my notes read, those two panels are a single
door and that's the door that I spoke of in my notes.
Showing you H-83, a photograph of a wall unit with a
36, did you put the 36 in that photograph?
Yes.
Where on that unit did you take blood from?
If I recall, the blood was taken fro~ the left dresser
unit there.
Can you show me where?
The particular spots, no.
On your notes, it says shelves; is that right?
That whole unit was a dresser, shelves, bookcase.
It says blood sample from wall shelves, right?
Yes.
And shelves means drawers?
As I said, that whole unit appeared as one unit.
So it could have been from anywhere on the unit?
Conceivably, yes.
Do you remember whether you took it from more than one
spot on the unit?
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I would have had to have taken more than just one spot,
yes.
Were all the spots within five or ten inches of each
other, or could they have been as far apart as three
or four feet?
I believe they were reasonably close together. I really
couldn't assign a dimension to it.
Was there blood splattered allover different parts of
that wall unit?
I really don't recall.
Did all the wall units, all the blood on the wall unit,
appear to be the result of one particular action?
I really don't recall.
As far as the serological analysis is concerned, can you
get a complete genetic profile or at least as complete
as your lab was capable of doing in June of 1983 f'rom
a single drop of blood?
It depends on the size of the drop of blood.
Circling on H-79 one of the drops of blood, and I labeled
that A, is that size of blood sufficient to get a complete
genetic profile from?
I really can't tell from this photograph. I can't tell
how thick the blood crust is.
Because of the coefficient of friction of blood, blood
that drops from an object by gravity will be more -
all of them will be more or less the same size; is that
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I would have had to have taken more than just one spot,
yes.
Were all the spots within five or ten inches of each
other, or could they have been as far apart as three
or four feet?
I believe they were reasonably close together. I really
couldn't assign a dimension to it.
Was there blood splattered allover different parts of
that wall unit?
I really don't recall.
Did all the wall units, all the blood on the wall unit,
appear to be the result of one particular action?
I really don't recall.
As far as the serological analysis is concerned, can you
get a complete genetic profile or at least as complete
as your lab was capable of doing in June of 1983 from
a single drop of blood?
It depends on the size of the drop of blood.
Circling on H-79 one of the drops of blood, and I labeled
that A, is that size of blood sufficient to get a complete
genetic profile from?
I really can't tell from this photograph. I can't tell
how thick the blood crust is.
Because of the coefficient of friction of blood, blood
that drops from an object by gravity will be more -
all of them will be more or less the same size; is that
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2 A-
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correct?
I don't think I'd be prepared to say. I think there's
other variables that could come into play there.
Is there in the literature, in the criminalistic literatur~,
an average size for a drop of blood which is given for
about 50 milliliters?
Fifty milliliters?
Yes.
Or do you mean microliters?
Must be microliters.
I haven't come across that in the literature myself.
I think that's a rather large size of a blood drop. But
that could be. I wouldn't dispute that.
From 50 microliters, can you get a complete genetic
profile?
I've seen a substantial amount of work done on 30
microliters, so, yes, I believe it could be done.
In the thing you got from the crime lab, does it
recommend that if you run out of pill boxes you can
package blood scrapings in just pieces of paper folded?
I don't know if it states it in there. It's entirely
possible, yes.
Showing you Photograph H-85, when you were at the
Ryen residence did you notice the various drops of blood
that appear on the sliding doors of the desk unit?
Yes. I'm sure that I noticed them.
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3505
correct?
I don't think I'd be prepared to say. I think there's
other variables that could come into play there.
Is there in the literature, in the criminalistic literatur~,
an average size for a drop of blood which is given for
about 50 milliliters?
Fifty milliliters?
Yes.
Or do you mean microliters?
Must be microliters.
I haven't come across that in the literature myself.
I think that's a rather large size of a blood drop. But
that could be. I wouldn't dispute that.
From 50 microliters, can you get a complete genetic
profile?
I've seen a substantial amount of work done on 30
microliters, so, yes, I believe it could be done.
In the thing you got from the crime lab, does it
recommend that if you run out of pill boxes you can
package blood scrapings in just pieces of paper folded?
I don't know if it states it in there. It's entirely
possible, yes.
Showing you Photograph H-85, when you were at the
Ryen residence did you notice the various drops of blood
that appear on the sliding doors of the desk unit?
Yes. I'm sure that I noticed them.
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~ Did you take any of them?
k If I did, they would have been in A-36.
~ You don't know whether you took any of them or not?
k Not right now, no.
~ Your best guess, though, is that you didn't? You took
it from the shelves I mean from the drawers, right?
k I believe so.
Any reason why you wouldn't take it from the desk unit?
k No.
~ \'lhy didn' t you?
k That blood by the method that I was collecting blood on
that day was in a generalized location in about the same
area as the drawers of that unit.
~ What do you mean by the methods that you were employing
on that day?
k I was proceeding through the bedroom on the walls of the
bedroom by going to areas where there was generalized
areas of blood where you could see an area of blood on
a wall and the next area of blood was somewhere distant
from that. There was an intervening space on the wall
vlhere there was no blood.
\'las that method different than the method you used on
other days?
On other days? I'm not sure --
In collecting blood. You said that that was the method
you used on that day. Did you mean to imply that used a
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~ Did you take any of them?
k If I did, they would have been in A-36.
~ You don't know whether you took any of them or not?
k Not right now, no.
~ Your best guess, though, is that you didn't? You took
it from the shelves I mean from the drawers, right?
k I believe so.
Any reason why you wouldn't take it from the desk unit?
k No.
~ \'lhy didn' t you?
k That blood by the method that I was collecting blood on
that day was in a generalized location in about the same
area as the drawers of that unit.
~ What do you mean by the methods that you were employing
on that day?
k I was proceeding through the bedroom on the walls of the
bedroom by going to areas where there was generalized
areas of blood where you could see an area of blood on
a wall and the next area of blood was somewhere distant
from that. There was an intervening space on the wall
vlhere there was no blood.
\'las that method different than the method you used on
other days?
On other days? I'm not sure --
In collecting blood. You said that that was the method
you used on that day. Did you mean to imply that used a
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3507
different method on June the 5th than you normally do?
I can employ different methods for obtaining blood.
3 It's going to depend on the circumstances of the case.
4 Q. What are the alternative methods that you use?
5 MR. KOCHIS: That would be irrelevant. There are
6 so many variables, de?ending on the scenes he goes to.
7 THE COURT: This scene must be so unique to where
8 any other method that he's used would be irrelevant to what
9 w~'re doing now. I'll sustain the objection, Counsel.
10 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Was this scene to your mind so unique
11 that any other method would be irrelevant?
12 A. I wouldn't say that any other method would be irrelevant.
13 There might be other relevant techniques. The scene was
14 quite extensive, and there a lot more variables in an
15 extensive scene than there are in a noncomplex scene.
16 Q. In an extensive scene do you need more evidence than
17 you do in a noncomplex scene?
18 A. One might collect more evidence. I don't know that it's
19 necessarily required.
20 Q. Do you believe that the methods that you used in selecting
21 which blood samples to take were methods which are
22 generally accepted in the community of criminalists?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you discussed your removal of blood with any other
25 criminalists?
26 A. Within our own laboratory. I really haven't had a chance
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3507
different method on June the 5th than you normally do?
I can employ different methods for obtaining blood.
3 It's going to depend on the circumstances of the case.
4 Q. What are the alternative methods that you use?
5 MR. KOCHIS: That would be irrelevant. There are
6 so many variables, de?ending on the scenes he goes to.
7 THE COURT: This scene must be so unique to where
8 any other method that he's used would be irrelevant to what
9 w~'re doing now. I'll sustain the objection, Counsel.
10 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Was this scene to your mind so unique
11 that any other method would be irrelevant?
12 A. I wouldn't say that any other method would be irrelevant.
13 There might be other relevant techniques. The scene was
14 quite extensive, and there a lot more variables in an
15 extensive scene than there are in a noncomplex scene.
16 Q. In an extensive scene do you need more evidence than
17 you do in a noncomplex scene?
18 A. One might collect more evidence. I don't know that it's
19 necessarily required.
20 Q. Do you believe that the methods that you used in selecting
21 which blood samples to take were methods which are
22 generally accepted in the community of criminalists?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you discussed your removal of blood with any other
25 criminalists?
26 A. Within our own laboratory. I really haven't had a chance
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to discuss it with others, for instance in the
organization, the CAC.
~ Have you discussed your selection of blood on June the
5th with Mr. Gregonis?
A. Yes.
~ Did he agree with you that you took enough?
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I would object. Calls for
hearsay, and if it's not offered for the truth of the matter
asserted it's not relevant.
THE COURT: What's your response, Mr. Negus?
MR. NEGUS: He said his method was accepted within
the community of criminalists. The only co~~unity of
criminalists he's talked about it with is people from his
own laboratory. I'm asking him about that.
THE COURT: Asking him about conversation with
people in his own laboratory.
!-1R. NEGUS: He said that his method that he used on
,June the 5th was accef)ted in the community.
THE COURT: Counsel, how else can you inquire or
examine about methods other than on what he's experienced
himself, what he's read, and to whom he's talked?
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, he's trying to use an
out-of-court statement for the truth of the matter asserted,
and that's a hearsay statement. I imagine if he wanted to,
the way he proves whether or not !·1r. Stockwell is correct
is when Mr. Gregonis is on the stand he asks Mr. Gregonis.
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to discuss it with others, for instance in the
organization, the CAC.
~ Have you discussed your selection of blood on June the
5th with Mr. Gregonis?
A. Yes.
~ Did he agree with you that you took enough?
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I would object. Calls for
hearsay, and if it's not offered for the truth of the matter
asserted it's not relevant.
THE COURT: What's your response, Mr. Negus?
MR. NEGUS: He said his method was accepted within
the community of criminalists. The only co~~unity of
criminalists he's talked about it with is people from his
own laboratory. I'm asking him about that.
THE COURT: Asking him about conversation with
people in his own laboratory.
!-1R. NEGUS: He said that his method that he used on
,June the 5th was accef)ted in the community.
THE COURT: Counsel, how else can you inquire or
examine about methods other than on what he's experienced
himself, what he's read, and to whom he's talked?
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, he's trying to use an
out-of-court statement for the truth of the matter asserted,
and that's a hearsay statement. I imagine if he wanted to,
the way he proves whether or not Mr. Stockwell is correct
is when Mr. Gregonis is on the stand he asks Mr. Gregonis.
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3509
That's the way to do it in any fashion.
MR. NEGUS: \\'hat we're getting at now is Mr.
Stockwell's statement that his methods are accepted. And so
that has to do with his particular --
THE COURT: I can't let "that open the door to
properly objectionable matters.
MR. NEGUS: But things are -- it may be objectionable
for the purpose that Mr. Kochis states, but it is not
objectionable for the limited purpose that I'm seeking to
bring it out.
THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) Do you yourself still feel that you
collected enough blood from the Ryen residence on June
the 5th?
MR. KOCHIS: Well, Your Honor, I would object. His
state of mind today is ·not relevant as to what he did on •
June the 5th.
THE COURT: No, overruled. You may answer that one.
THE WITNESS: I feel that I did an adequate job in
collecting blood samples on June the 5th.
~ (BY MR. NEGqS:) Why did you go back on June the 30th?
~ On June the 30th we had additional information that we
did not have on June the 5th.
~ The only additional information that you had on June
the 30th which affected your decision -- I'll back up.
Was the only additional information you had on
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That's the way to do it in any fashion.
MR. NEGUS: \\'hat we're getting at now is Mr.
Stockwell's statement that his methods are accepted. And so
that has to do with his particular --
THE COURT: I can't let "that open the door to
properly objectionable matters.
MR. NEGUS: But things are -- it may be objectionable
for the purpose that Mr. Kochis states, but it is not
objectionable for the limited purpose that I'm seeking to
bring it out.
THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) Do you yourself still feel that you
collected enough blood from the Ryen residence on June
the 5th?
MR. KOCHIS: Well, Your Honor, I would object. His
state of mind today is ·not relevant as to what he did on •
June the 5th.
THE COURT: No, overruled. You may answer that one.
THE WITNESS: I feel that I did an adequate job in
collecting blood samples on June the 5th.
~ (BY MR. NEGqS:) Why did you go back on June the 30th?
~ On June the 30th we had additional information that we
did not have on June the 5th.
~ The only additional information that you had on June
the 30th which affected your decision -- I'll back up.
Was the only additional information you had on
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3510
1 June the 30th that affected your decision the
2 information that there was blood that did not come from
3 the victims in the house?
4 ~ Yes, as I recall it, that was the information that we
5 had that drew us back to the scene.
6 ~ Do you think that it was not reasonably foreseeable on
7 June the 5th that there would be blood in the house that
8 did not come from the victims?
9 MR. KOCHIS: Objection, calls for speculation.
10 THE COURT: We've been inquiring into his state of
11 mind ~s he went about his work on that date all along.
12 Overruled.
13 THE WITNESS: It was necessarily a possibility. I /---
14 wouldn't say it was reasonable to believe that there was
15 going to be blood from someone else there.
16 (No omissions.)
17
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3510
1 June the 30th that affected your decision the
2 information that there was blood that did not come from
3 the victims in the house?
4 ~ Yes, as I recall it, that was the information that we
5 had that drew us back to the scene.
6 ~ Do you think that it was not reasonably foreseeable on
7 June the 5th that there would be blood in the house that
8 did not come from the victims?
9 MR. KOCHIS: Objection, calls for speculation.
10 THE COURT: We've been inquiring into his state of
11 mind ~s he went about his work on that date all along.
12 Overruled.
13 THE WITNESS: It was necessarily a possibility. I /---
14 wouldn't say it was reasonable to believe that there was
15 going to be blood from someone else there.
16 (No omissions.)
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~ 13 A
14 Q
15 A
16 Q
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3511
So when you were collecting blood, you weren't looking
for blood from an assailant?
Certainly, I was. All the bleod I collected at that
time was of unknown origin. There is a high probability
it's from the victims, consicering the amount of carnage
at the scene, the number of aounds and everything. But
that does not discount there ~ight not be assailants' or
anybody else's blood at the scene.
Mr. Stockwell, you indicated~ I believe, yesterday that
one of your purposes in goin~ to collect blood samples
was to try and locate blood =~om an assailant: is that
correct?
That's one of the possibilities, yes.
\'I7as that one of your purposes?
Yes.
Then were you operating on tte hypothesis that you
wanted to collect -blood, you wanted to collect enough
blood to find the assailant"s blood if it was there?
If there was more blood that was not associated with any
of the victims, yes, we wantrd to find it.
From the master bedroom, did you collect, in your mind,
sufficient blood to find an ~ssailant's blood if it were
there?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection. That calls for speculation.
THE COURT: It calls for his expertise. Overruled.
You may answer.
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Q
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3 A
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7
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14 Q
15 A
16 Q
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19 A
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3511
So when you were collecting blood, you weren't looking
for blood from an assailant?
Certainly, I was. All the bleod I collected at that
time was of unknown origin. There is a high probability
it's from the victims, consicering the amount of carnage
at the scene, the number of aounds and everything. But
that does not discount there ~ight not be assailants' or
anybody else's blood at the scene.
Mr. Stockwell, you indicated~ I believe, yesterday that
one of your purposes in goin~ to collect blood samples
was to try and locate blood =~om an assailant: is that
correct?
That's one of the possibilities, yes.
\'I7as that one of your purposes?
Yes.
Then were you operating on tte hypothesis that you
wanted to collect -blood, you wanted to collect enough
blood to find the assailant"s blood if it was there?
If there was more blood that was not associated with any
of the victims, yes, we wantrd to find it.
From the master bedroom, did you collect, in your mind,
sufficient blood to find an ~ssailant's blood if it were
there?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection. That calls for speculation.
THE COURT: It calls for his expertise. Overruled.
You may answer.
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3512
THE WITNESS: To look for every possibilities of a
suspect's blood in the bedroom would have required collecting
every s~ple of blood that was in the bedroom. There was a
massive amount of blood in the bedroom which would require
a lot of time back at the laboratory. In that regard, no, I
did not do everything I could have to find a suspect's blood
in the bedroom.
Q (BY HR. NEGUS) In your mind, on June 5th, did you think
that you were maximizing your chances without taking
every drop of blood back to the laboratory but collecting
those blood patterns ~hich would maximize your chances
of finding an assailant's blood?
A I don't know if I could say I was maximizing the chances.
Q
A
Q
A
I thought I was doing everything I could given the hours
that I worked and the fact that knowing that criminalists
could go back at a later time if they thought it was
necessary.
After you finished, realizing the limits that you had
then ~ith time, did you think the job was done?
By no means.
Did you tell Mr. Baird or any of your superiors, "lie
need more blood"?
I don't believe I said specifically, "l-le need more blood.'
I said that the scene was very extensive. That it was
probably a good idea to have other criminalists look at
it for the sole purpose that more eyes are better than
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3512
THE WITNESS: To look for every possibilities of a
suspect's blood in the bedroom would have required collecting
every s~ple of blood that was in the bedroom. There was a
massive amount of blood in the bedroom which would require
a lot of time back at the laboratory. In that regard, no, I
did not do everything I could have to find a suspect's blood
in the bedroom.
Q (BY HR. NEGUS) In your mind, on June 5th, did you think
that you were maximizing your chances without taking
every drop of blood back to the laboratory but collecting
those blood patterns ~hich would maximize your chances
of finding an assailant's blood?
A I don't know if I could say I was maximizing the chances.
Q
A
Q
A
I thought I was doing everything I could given the hours
that I worked and the fact that knowing that criminalists
could go back at a later time if they thought it was
necessary.
After you finished, realizing the limits that you had
then ~ith time, did you think the job was done?
By no means.
Did you tell Mr. Baird or any of your superiors, "lie
need more blood"?
I don't believe I said specifically, "l-le need more blood.'
I said that the scene was very extensive. That it was
probably a good idea to have other criminalists look at
it for the sole purpose that more eyes are better than
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1-3 2 Q
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5 A
6
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9
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3513
just one set of eyes.
When you made that reco~~endation, did you furnish
Mr. Baird with your notes so that the other criminalists
woulc know what you had already done?
I wo~ld say he had access to my notes. I didn't
physically hand my notes to him, but my notes were in
the laboratory and they were accessible.
On J~e the 6th, did you discuss the scene with either
Mr. Gregonis or Mr. Ogino?
I do;m.at recall.
On J~e the 6th, did you have your notes with you when
you ~~nt to the autopsy, or did you leave them at the
labc::-atory?
The ~ctes that I took at t~e original scene, I believe,
were in the laboratory.
In E-78, there are some creps of blood on the right-hand
door that -~ there are sc~e trickles of blood on the
rig~~-hand door there.
~id those trickles appear to you to have been
consistent with a person ~i~~ either a bleeding hand
or broody hand touching the door?
Y-R. KOCHIS: Objection. That calls for speculation.
~ COURT: Read the guestion, please.
«Whereupon the record .as read by the
reporter as requested.)
XR. KOCHIS: And I have an additional objection that
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9
10 A
11 Q
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13 ~'
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3513
just one set of eyes.
When you made that reco~~endation, did you furnish
Mr. Baird with your notes so that the other criminalists
woulc know what you had already done?
I wo~ld say he had access to my notes. I didn't
physically hand my notes to him, but my notes were in
the laboratory and they were accessible.
On J~e the 6th, did you discuss the scene with either
Mr. Gregonis or Mr. Ogino?
I do;m.at recall.
On J~e the 6th, did you have your notes with you when
you ~~nt to the autopsy, or did you leave them at the
labc::-atory?
The ~ctes that I took at t~e original scene, I believe,
were in the laboratory.
In E-78, there are some creps of blood on the right-hand
door that -~ there are sc~e trickles of blood on the
rig~~-hand door there.
~id those trickles appear to you to have been
consistent with a person ~i~~ either a bleeding hand
or broody hand touching the door?
Y-R. KOCHIS: Objection. That calls for speculation.
~ COURT: Read the guestion, please.
«Whereupon the record .as read by the
reporter as requested.)
XR. KOCHIS: And I have an additional objection that
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3514
it assumes a fact that's not in evicence that there was
blood on there that's the result 0: a trickle. There is
no evidence of that.
MR. NEGUS: I have another closeup of the thing,
you~ Honor, H-78, if I could show you.
THE COURT: Start another ~Jestion and show the
wi tness that.
MR. NEGUS: I was going to show it to you to handle
Mr. Kochis' objection that there is no evidence.
THE COURT: Ask him about 78.
MR. NEGUS: This is a clcs~~p of the same photograph.
THE COURT: Show him H-7S, the witness.
As far as the speculation objection, I will overrule
that.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) H-78, does t~~t appear to be a closeup
of the door with the number 35 over it?
A Yes.
Q And there are a series of patte~ns of blood toward the
top of that photograph; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Six of them of what appears to be streamers of blood
running down from it; is that correct?
A Yes, they are running down the door due to gravity.
Q Commonly referred to as a trickle. correct?
THE COURT: Let's don't get lost on words.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Okay. Did these marks on the door appear
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3514
it assumes a fact that's not in evicence that there was
blood on there that's the result 0: a trickle. There is
no evidence of that.
MR. NEGUS: I have another closeup of the thing,
you~ Honor, H-78, if I could show you.
THE COURT: Start another ~Jestion and show the
wi tness that.
MR. NEGUS: I was going to show it to you to handle
Mr. Kochis' objection that there is no evidence.
THE COURT: Ask him about 78.
MR. NEGUS: This is a clcs~~p of the same photograph.
THE COURT: Show him H-7S, the witness.
As far as the speculation objection, I will overrule
that.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) H-78, does t~~t appear to be a closeup
of the door with the number 35 over it?
A Yes.
Q And there are a series of patte~ns of blood toward the
top of that photograph; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Six of them of what appears to be streamers of blood
running down from it; is that correct?
A Yes, they are running down the door due to gravity.
Q Commonly referred to as a trickle. correct?
THE COURT: Let's don't get lost on words.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Okay. Did these marks on the door appear
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3515
1 to you to be consistent with either a person with a
1-5 2 bloody hand touching the door or a person with a bleeding
3 hand touching the door?
4 MR. KOCHIS: That's compound, the question. I would
5 object on that ground.
6 THE COURT: He can answer broadly yes or no first.
7 THE \'lITNESS: Are you asking if at that time,
8 June the 5th, I had that opinion?
9 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Yes.
10 A I didn't come to any such opinion.
11 Q Did you examine that particular pattern of blood at all?
12 A To what regard? As to what may have caused it?
13 Q When you were collecting the blood and trying to maximize
( 14 your chances of finding blood from the assailant, did
15 you look at it?
16 A I'm sure I looked at it.
17 Q Did that particular pattern appear to you to have a
18 higher chance of yielding an assailant than some of the
19 other blood?
20 HR. KOCHIS: Objection. That calls for speculation.
21 THE COURT: That's his job, Mr. Kochis, to look at
22 the patterns and, in a sense, to be a detective. Overruled.
23 THE \'lITNESS: I really didn't associate that blood
24 pattern as being any more significant or important than any
25 of the other blood in that general location.
26 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Did you request that Mr. Duffy take a
on u
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3515
1 to you to be consistent with either a person with a
1-5 2 bloody hand touching the door or a person with a bleeding
3 hand touching the door?
4 MR. KOCHIS: That's compound, the question. I would
5 object on that ground.
6 THE COURT: He can answer broadly yes or no first.
7 THE \'lITNESS: Are you asking if at that time,
8 June the 5th, I had that opinion?
9 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Yes.
10 A I didn't come to any such opinion.
11 Q Did you examine that particular pattern of blood at all?
12 A To what regard? As to what may have caused it?
13 Q When you were collecting the blood and trying to maximize
( 14 your chances of finding blood from the assailant, did
15 you look at it?
16 A I'm sure I looked at it.
17 Q Did that particular pattern appear to you to have a
18 higher chance of yielding an assailant than some of the
19 other blood?
20 HR. KOCHIS: Objection. That calls for speculation.
21 THE COURT: That's his job, Mr. Kochis, to look at
22 the patterns and, in a sense, to be a detective. Overruled.
23 THE \'lITNESS: I really didn't associate that blood
24 pattern as being any more significant or important than any
25 of the other blood in that general location.
26 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Did you request that Mr. Duffy take a
on u
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1-6 2 A
3 Q
4
5
6 A
7
8 Q
9
10
11 A
12 Q
i'\ 13
14
15
16 A
17 Q
18 A
19 Q
20
21
22 A
23 Q
24 A
25 Q
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3516
closeup of it?
I don't recall doing that.
Circling some smears on the door, did those appear
on June 5th, did those appear to you to be finger
impressions?
I don't recall making any such examination or coming to
any such conclusion about that.
Did you spend approximately an hour and a quarter
collecting the ten blood samples that you took from
furniture and the wall in the master bedroom?
Actually collecting it, it appears so.
During that period of time, were you -- Did that
include the process of taking a knife or thread, as
the case may be, and removing the blood from the wall
or furniture?
Yes, the physical act of collecting the blood.
And then writing on the little pill box as to what it was
Yes.
And did that also include the process of taking the
photographs that I have been showing you with the
little numbers in them?
No.
When was that done?
I believe prior to my collection of the blood.
Was it done prior to your collection of blood from the
carpet as well?
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5
6 A
7
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9
10
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17 Q
18 A
19 Q
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21
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23 Q
24 A
25 Q
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3516
closeup of it?
I don't recall doing that.
Circling some smears on the door, did those appear
on June 5th, did those appear to you to be finger
impressions?
I don't recall making any such examination or coming to
any such conclusion about that.
Did you spend approximately an hour and a quarter
collecting the ten blood samples that you took from
furniture and the wall in the master bedroom?
Actually collecting it, it appears so.
During that period of time, were you -- Did that
include the process of taking a knife or thread, as
the case may be, and removing the blood from the wall
or furniture?
Yes, the physical act of collecting the blood.
And then writing on the little pill box as to what it was
Yes.
And did that also include the process of taking the
photographs that I have been showing you with the
little numbers in them?
No.
When was that done?
I believe prior to my collection of the blood.
Was it done prior to your collection of blood from the
carpet as well?
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3517
A Which carpeting? In the bedroom?
Q Yes.
A I don't believe so. I think the photographs of the
walls came after that.
Q The last sample that you took of non-victims' blood
was at 10:40, correct?
A Yes.
Q And the sample number 31 from the east wall was at
11:05?
A Yes.
Q ~oJas that a period of time when you took the photos that
you made your decision as to which areas you were going
to take the blood from?
A No. I had made that decision before.
Q When?
A I don't recall.
Q Was it after the victims had been removed from the
bedroom?
A I believe so.
Q The last victim As the victims were being removed
from the bedroom, that's when you were picking up your
hair samples; is that correct?
A I believe I picked up the hair samples before the
victims were removed.
Q The last victim -- The last hair sample you picked up
was picked up at 9:08, correct?
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3517
A Which carpeting? In the bedroom?
Q Yes.
A I don't believe so. I think the photographs of the
walls came after that.
Q The last sample that you took of non-victims' blood
was at 10:40, correct?
A Yes.
Q And the sample number 31 from the east wall was at
11:05?
A Yes.
Q ~oJas that a period of time when you took the photos that
you made your decision as to which areas you were going
to take the blood from?
A No. I had made that decision before.
Q When?
A I don't recall.
Q Was it after the victims had been removed from the
bedroom?
A I believe so.
Q The last victim As the victims were being removed
from the bedroom, that's when you were picking up your
hair samples; is that correct?
A I believe I picked up the hair samples before the
victims were removed.
Q The last victim -- The last hair sample you picked up
was picked up at 9:08, correct?
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-3518
1 A Yes.
1-8 2 Q So you had approximately an hour to make your decision
3 as to what blood to seize; is that correct?
4 A I wouldn't say that.
5 Q \,zell, it was done after the hair was removed, right?
6 A The process is ongoing at all times. From the time I
7 walked into the bedroom, I could see blood splatters
8 on the walls. That's not to say that maybe I formed
9 the intent to collect that blood right then, but it
10 was in my mind.
11 I really can't say that, yes, at such and such time
12 I formed the idea to collect a certain amount of blood.
13 Q Did you ever sort of like walk around the room and look
14 at the walls and attempt with your training as best
15 you could to interpret which patterns would be most
16 significant to collect?
17 • I did walk around the room, did look at the blood on A
18 the walls and did decide which samples of blood I was
19 going to take as far as the general location of blood.
20 THE COURT: Would you ask him how he made that
21 decision, Mr. Negus, at so~e point, and what basis he used
22 for deciding where to collect blood?
23 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) What basis did you use?
24 THE COURT: What system did you have? Tell us how
25 you made that decision.
26 THE \HTNESS: Okay. Throughout the room, there were
f l
f l
,. l , .. .. -
-3518
1 A Yes.
1-8 2 Q So you had approximately an hour to make your decision
3 as to what blood to seize; is that correct?
4 A I wouldn't say that.
5 Q \,zell, it was done after the hair was removed, right?
6 A The process is ongoing at all times. From the time I
7 walked into the bedroom, I could see blood splatters
8 on the walls. That's not to say that maybe I formed
9 the intent to collect that blood right then, but it
10 was in my mind.
11 I really can't say that, yes, at such and such time
12 I formed the idea to collect a certain amount of blood.
13 Q Did you ever sort of like walk around the room and look
14 at the walls and attempt with your training as best
15 you could to interpret which patterns would be most
16 significant to collect?
17 • I did walk around the room, did look at the blood on A
18 the walls and did decide which samples of blood I was
19 going to take as far as the general location of blood.
20 THE COURT: Would you ask him how he made that
21 decision, Mr. Negus, at so~e point, and what basis he used
22 for deciding where to collect blood?
23 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) What basis did you use?
24 THE COURT: What system did you have? Tell us how
25 you made that decision.
26 THE \HTNESS: Okay. Throughout the room, there were
f l
f l
,. l , .. .. -
1
1-9 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
.,~.
3519
several areas where there was blood and then there were
several areas where there was no blood that would be
indicative of a certain degree of action taking place there,
whatever wounding patterns.
Those areas I felt would be pretty much consistent
with the same type of blood. There were multiple actions
with each and every general area, but I could not say that
that action occurred between two people, three people or
four people.
My best inclination was to take general blood from
the area there as best I could. If I were to take just one
drop of blood, that would not be enough to perform all the
serological examinations in the laboratory that would be
required. It takes mostly
There were quite a few drops of blood which meant
mixing actions and so forth. So what I did was just take
patterns of blood.
For example, from the east wall, there was an area
there that you could see some action had taken place. I
took general blood samples from that wall. I moved to the
bed itself. There was blood crusted on the bed. I took
samples of that. There was blood above the headboard of
the bed. I took samples of that. There was blood on the
nightstand to the right side of the bed. I took blood from
that.
And that's how I progressed through the room where
j 1
1 I
I
,. l
,. l
,. l ,. ..
1
1-9 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
.,~.
3519
several areas where there was blood and then there were
several areas where there was no blood that would be
indicative of a certain degree of action taking place there,
whatever wounding patterns.
Those areas I felt would be pretty much consistent
with the same type of blood. There were multiple actions
with each and every general area, but I could not say that
that action occurred between two people, three people or
four people.
My best inclination was to take general blood from
the area there as best I could. If I were to take just one
drop of blood, that would not be enough to perform all the
serological examinations in the laboratory that would be
required. It takes mostly
There were quite a few drops of blood which meant
mixing actions and so forth. So what I did was just take
patterns of blood.
For example, from the east wall, there was an area
there that you could see some action had taken place. I
took general blood samples from that wall. I moved to the
bed itself. There was blood crusted on the bed. I took
samples of that. There was blood above the headboard of
the bed. I took samples of that. There was blood on the
nightstand to the right side of the bed. I took blood from
that.
And that's how I progressed through the room where
j 1
1 I
I
,. l
,. l
,. l ,. ..
1
1-10 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
,~ 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3520
there were areas where action appeared to have been taking
place.
(No omissions.)
.~.-'.,'~' .... ~:.. -r, u
I , I-' U
I , I ,
I-' U
1
1-10 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
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,~ 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3520
there were areas where action appeared to have been taking
place.
(No omissions.)
.~.-'.,'~' .... ~:.. -r, u
I , I-' U
I , I ,
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2-1
/---"
3521
1 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Wi thin each of those areas where
2 actions appeared to have beer. taking place, was your
3 selection of whic~ particular drops to take essentially
4 just arbitrary, random?
5 A. Usually, except for the fact that I attempted to take in
6 most circumstances larger spots of blood.
7 Q.
8 A.
9 Q.
10
11 A.
12
13 Q.
14
15 A.
16 Q.
17
18 A.
19 0.
20
21
22 A.
23 Q.
24
25 A.
26 0.
So size was the only criterion that you used?
Yes. It was one of the major criterion I used.
How far approximately was Peggy Ryen's body from
Jessica?
Several feet, ap?roximately. I don't know. I didn't
take the measur~nts.
How far was Peggy Ryen's bocT from Christopher Hughes,
just the best you can recollect?
Again, several feet.
And between Peg~· Ryen and Ctristopher Hughes, was there
clothing which was identifie~ to you as Joshua's?
Yes.
Showing you Photograph H-2l3. does that depict the
location of Jessica, Peggy, C~ristopher, and Joshua's
clothing?
Yes.
And Peggy's hand is almost touching Joshua's clothinq:
is that correct?
It's very close.
Given the general proximity of those victims together
on u , , " U
I , I , I ,
2-1
/---"
3521
1 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Wi thin each of those areas where
2 actions appeared to have beer. taking place, was your
3 selection of whic~ particular drops to take essentially
4 just arbitrary, random?
5 A. Usually, except for the fact that I attempted to take in
6 most circumstances larger spots of blood.
7 Q.
8 A.
9 Q.
10
11 A.
12
13 Q.
14
15 A.
16 Q.
17
18 A.
19 0.
20
21
22 A.
23 Q.
24
25 A.
26 0.
So size was the only criterion that you used?
Yes. It was one of the major criterion I used.
How far approximately was Peggy Ryen's body from
Jessica?
Several feet, ap?roximately. I don't know. I didn't
take the measur~nts.
How far was Peggy Ryen's bocT from Christopher Hughes,
just the best you can recollect?
Again, several feet.
And between Peg~· Ryen and Ctristopher Hughes, was there
clothing which was identifie~ to you as Joshua's?
Yes.
Showing you Photograph H-2l3. does that depict the
location of Jessica, Peggy, C~ristopher, and Joshua's
clothing?
Yes.
And Peggy's hand is almost touching Joshua's clothinq:
is that correct?
It's very close.
Given the general proximity of those victims together
on u , , " U
I , I , I ,
2-2
2
3
4 A.
5 Q.
6
7 A.
8 Q.
9 A.
10
11 Q.
12
~, 13 A.
14 Q.
15 A.
16 Q.
17 A.
18 Q.
19
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24 A.
25
26 Q.
/~
3522
in the room, were you able to, for example, associate
the blood in the northwest corner of the room with any
of those particular victims?
Not at the scene.
Showing you H-95, a photograph with a number 37 on it,
did you take blood from the typewriter in that?
No.
Why not?
I felt that it was in proximity to the northwest wall,
and that is where I collected the blood sample from.
Where did you collect it, which blood in that photograph
H-95 did you collect from the northwest wall?
I don't recall.
Was it smear or drops?
I don't recall that independently.
Do you have notes of it? •
No.
Blood sample 38 was taken from the door which appears
in the right hand corner of the photograph H-2IS; is
that right?
Yes.
There was blood on the side of the door; is that
correct?
The side of the door? I'm not sure what you mean by
that.
The edge of the door, I guess is a better --
" U , , I-' U , , , , ~,
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9 A.
10
11 Q.
12
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14 Q.
15 A.
16 Q.
17 A.
18 Q.
19
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24 A.
25
26 Q.
/~
3522
in the room, were you able to, for example, associate
the blood in the northwest corner of the room with any
of those particular victims?
Not at the scene.
Showing you H-95, a photograph with a number 37 on it,
did you take blood from the typewriter in that?
No.
Why not?
I felt that it was in proximity to the northwest wall,
and that is where I collected the blood sample from.
Where did you collect it, which blood in that photograph
H-95 did you collect from the northwest wall?
I don't recall.
Was it smear or drops?
I don't recall that independently.
Do you have notes of it? •
No.
Blood sample 38 was taken from the door which appears
in the right hand corner of the photograph H-2IS; is
that right?
Yes.
There was blood on the side of the door; is that
correct?
The side of the door? I'm not sure what you mean by
that.
The edge of the door, I guess is a better --
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,~
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15 0-
16 A-
17 0-
18 A-
19 0-
20
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23 A-
24 0-
25
26 A-
"~,
3523
I really don't recall if there was or not.
There were drops on the door and two large smears as
well; is that correct?
According to this photograph I see smears.
Showing you H-244, that's a photograph of the general
area that you took the blood from; is that correct?
Yes.
And the 38 is set up where you did it? You set the
38 up?
Yes.
Can you see what appears to be drops on the door?
Yes.
Do you recall whether you took drops or smears?
I don't recall.
And you don't have any notes?
I don't have them in my notes, no.
Do you have them in some other place?
No.
Showing you Photograph H-106, and that is a photograph
of the area from which you took A-39; is that correct?
Yes.
And that shows drops and smears?
Yes.
You noted that you took that particular sample from a
smear, correct?
Ms. Schechter has that as her notes.
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3
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9
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12 A-
13 0-
14 A-
15 0-
16 A-
17 0-
18 A-
19 0-
20
21 A-
22 0-
23 A-
24 0-
25
26 A-
"~,
3523
I really don't recall if there was or not.
There were drops on the door and two large smears as
well; is that correct?
According to this photograph I see smears.
Showing you H-244, that's a photograph of the general
area that you took the blood from; is that correct?
Yes.
And the 38 is set up where you did it? You set the
38 up?
Yes.
Can you see what appears to be drops on the door?
Yes.
Do you recall whether you took drops or smears?
I don't recall.
And you don't have any notes?
I don't have them in my notes, no.
Do you have them in some other place?
No.
Showing you Photograph H-106, and that is a photograph
of the area from which you took A-39; is that correct?
Yes.
And that shows drops and smears?
Yes.
You noted that you took that particular sample from a
smear, correct?
Ms. Schechter has that as her notes.
" U , , 1-' U , , , , ~,
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3
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14
15
16 A.
11 Q.
18
19
20 A.
21
22
23
24 Q.
25
26
"~ . .,.. ..
3524
Were you telling her what to put in her notes?
I don't believe so. She was watching me as I collected
the samples.
Do you recall which smear that's shm..rn in that photograph
you took the sample from?
No, I do not.
And finally, H-I07 shows the general area from which
you took the sample A-40; correct?
Yes.
Do you recall from ,,,here on that photograph you took
that particular sample?
I don't recall which particular samples, no.
Showing you H-I09, a photo of the closet doors in that
particular room. There appears to be blood up toward
the top of those doors; is that correct?
Yes.
That would be separated by three or four feet from the
blood that is down at the bottom from the area where
you took A-40; is that correct?
There is blood at the top, there's blood in the middle,
there's blood at the bottom. I really wouldn't call it
a separation. There is a difference between the top
and bottom by three or four feet.
Does there appear to be a concentration at the bottom
and concentration at the top and scattered drops in
between?
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14
15
16 A.
11 Q.
18
19
20 A.
21
22
23
24 Q.
25
26
"~ . .,.. ..
3524
Were you telling her what to put in her notes?
I don't believe so. She was watching me as I collected
the samples.
Do you recall which smear that's shm..rn in that photograph
you took the sample from?
No, I do not.
And finally, H-I07 shows the general area from which
you took the sample A-40; correct?
Yes.
Do you recall from ,,,here on that photograph you took
that particular sample?
I don't recall which particular samples, no.
Showing you H-I09, a photo of the closet doors in that
particular room. There appears to be blood up toward
the top of those doors; is that correct?
Yes.
That would be separated by three or four feet from the
blood that is down at the bottom from the area where
you took A-40; is that correct?
There is blood at the top, there's blood in the middle,
there's blood at the bottom. I really wouldn't call it
a separation. There is a difference between the top
and bottom by three or four feet.
Does there appear to be a concentration at the bottom
and concentration at the top and scattered drops in
between?
. .--.-... ";"~:..><-"."'"
n u
"
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I , I ,
U ,
2-5
1 A.
2 Q.
3
4 A.
5 Q.
6
7 A.
8
9 Q.
10 A.
11
12 Q.
13 A.
14 Q.
15 A.
16 Q.
17 A.
18
19 Q.
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24 A.
25 Q.
26
/~.
3525
That would be a fair assessment.
There are scattered drops allover the whole bedroom,
right?
There are drops of blood throughout much of the bedroom.
Was there any particular area that you can recall that
did not have any drops of blood in it?
The area that I can recall is the northeast side or
corner of the bedroom.
Was there an exercise bicycle in that corner?
There was an exercise bicycle there. I don't recall
if that was the exact location of it.
Did the exercise bicycle have drops of blood on it?
I don't recall.
Was there an exercise board in that corner?
I don't recall.
\\'as there an ironing board in that corner?
There was an ironing board near the north wall. I don't
recall if it was towards the east corner or not.
Showing you H-133, does that appear to be a picture
at least showing the general area of the northeast corner?
Yes.
And there is laying on the wall near the northeast corner
an exercise board: correct?
There's a board. I guess it would be an exercise board.
Whatever that board is, do you recall it having drops
of blood on it?
" U
"
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I , ,:J
2-5
1 A.
2 Q.
3
4 A.
5 Q.
6
7 A.
8
9 Q.
10 A.
11
12 Q.
13 A.
14 Q.
15 A.
16 Q.
17 A.
18
19 Q.
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24 A.
25 Q.
26
/~.
3525
That would be a fair assessment.
There are scattered drops allover the whole bedroom,
right?
There are drops of blood throughout much of the bedroom.
Was there any particular area that you can recall that
did not have any drops of blood in it?
The area that I can recall is the northeast side or
corner of the bedroom.
Was there an exercise bicycle in that corner?
There was an exercise bicycle there. I don't recall
if that was the exact location of it.
Did the exercise bicycle have drops of blood on it?
I don't recall.
Was there an exercise board in that corner?
I don't recall.
\\'as there an ironing board in that corner?
There was an ironing board near the north wall. I don't
recall if it was towards the east corner or not.
Showing you H-133, does that appear to be a picture
at least showing the general area of the northeast corner?
Yes.
And there is laying on the wall near the northeast corner
an exercise board: correct?
There's a board. I guess it would be an exercise board.
Whatever that board is, do you recall it having drops
of blood on it?
" U
"
, , U , ,
I , ,:J
2-6
'~"
/~~
3526
1 A. I don't recall.
2 0-
3 A.
Did you look at it?
Probably. I don't recall off hand explicitly looking
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
at it.
Do you recall explicitly looking at the bicycle, the
exercise bicycle?
A. No, not explicitly.
Do you recall explicitly looking at the ironing board?
A. I did look at the ironing board.
0- Did you see drops of blood on it?
A. I really don't recall.
0- You didn't collect any blood whatsoever from that
A.
0-
A.
0-
A.
0-
northeast corner, correct?
No.
Do you recall how much time you spent walking around
the room looking at the walls deciding which ten areas
you were to choose blood from?
No.
You indicated that you purpose for collecting the
bedding was not for serological analysis; is that
correct?
My only purpose was not, although that was not something
that could not have been done.
When you were seizing the bedding and packaging it,
you were not seizing it and packaging it for the
purpose of serological analysis; is that correct?
1-' U , , , , ,o
2-6
'~"
/~~
3526
1 A. I don't recall.
2 0-
3 A.
Did you look at it?
Probably. I don't recall off hand explicitly looking
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
at it.
Do you recall explicitly looking at the bicycle, the
exercise bicycle?
A. No, not explicitly.
Do you recall explicitly looking at the ironing board?
A. I did look at the ironing board.
0- Did you see drops of blood on it?
A. I really don't recall.
0- You didn't collect any blood whatsoever from that
A.
0-
A.
0-
A.
0-
northeast corner, correct?
No.
Do you recall how much time you spent walking around
the room looking at the walls deciding which ten areas
you were to choose blood from?
No.
You indicated that you purpose for collecting the
bedding was not for serological analysis; is that
correct?
My only purpose was not, although that was not something
that could not have been done.
When you were seizing the bedding and packaging it,
you were not seizing it and packaging it for the
purpose of serological analysis; is that correct?
1-' U , , , , ,o
II
2-7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3527
A. My intent at the time was not serological but the way
that I packaged it was not opposed to having it later
analyzed serologically.
(No omissions.)
'n u , , " U , , , , , ,
II
2-7
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3527
A. My intent at the time was not serological but the way
that I packaged it was not opposed to having it later
analyzed serologically.
(No omissions.)
'n u , , " U , , , , , ,
3-1 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
~ .. 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~,
3528
Q If textiles are to be preserved for serological analysis,
it's necessary that before the seizure they be thoroughly
dried, correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether, for example, the bottom sheet,
A-lO, was dry when you seized it?
A The vast majority of it was. If there was any dampness
left, it was on the portion that Douglas Ryen was leaning
against.
Q Do you know whether it was dry?
A I don't recall offhand right now whether it was or was
not.
Q When you are packaging textiles for serological analysis,
you are required by your laboratory procedures, are you
not, to wrap them so that one surface of the textile
doesn't come in contact with another surface?
A I don't recall ever having read that procedure.
Q I think right there on the corner of the table there is
H-195. On pages 6 and 7 of that particular document,
there· are procedures for transporting moveable objects,
right, packaging, looking at page 7, B(3) (a)?
TH~ COURT: If you are going to· put these manuals
and things into evidence, bring out from him what was done
then the document will speak for itself. You can make
arguments therefrom. Why now try to get him to come around
to an admission that he didn't follow the manual, if that's
" U
"
~ , U
~
• ~ ,
., o
3-1 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
~ .. 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~,
3528
Q If textiles are to be preserved for serological analysis,
it's necessary that before the seizure they be thoroughly
dried, correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether, for example, the bottom sheet,
A-lO, was dry when you seized it?
A The vast majority of it was. If there was any dampness
left, it was on the portion that Douglas Ryen was leaning
against.
Q Do you know whether it was dry?
A I don't recall offhand right now whether it was or was
not.
Q When you are packaging textiles for serological analysis,
you are required by your laboratory procedures, are you
not, to wrap them so that one surface of the textile
doesn't come in contact with another surface?
A I don't recall ever having read that procedure.
Q I think right there on the corner of the table there is
H-195. On pages 6 and 7 of that particular document,
there· are procedures for transporting moveable objects,
right, packaging, looking at page 7, B(3) (a)?
TH~ COURT: If you are going to· put these manuals
and things into evidence, bring out from him what was done
then the document will speak for itself. You can make
arguments therefrom. Why now try to get him to come around
to an admission that he didn't follow the manual, if that's
" U
"
~ , U
~
• ~ ,
., o
3529
1 what you are asking?
3-2 2 MR. NEGUS: I really just want to ask him why. I
3 mean, if I could do that without Mr. Kochis saying "It
4 assumes facts not in evidence."
5 THE COURT: Go ahead.
6 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) It says that in that -- In that
7 particular manual, it says that you are supposed to
8 package small, moveable objects in such a way that one
9 stained region will not rub against another surface: is
10 that correct?
11 A That's part of what (3) (a) says.
12 Q Why didn't you do that?
13 A I felt I was doing the reason for that: that is,
14 guarding against contamination, blood being transferred
15 from one area of the sheet to another.
16 To my knowledge, dry blood on sheeting material
will not transfer, at least for serological purposes,
18 unless it's wet or damp.
19 Q But you don't know whether it was damp?
20 A The bottom sheet I don't recall.
21 Q Showing you H-287, that's a photograph of the bottom
22 sheet, correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And the areas, dark areas on that bottom sheet are
25 blood, correct?
26 A Yes.
" U , , I-' U , , , , '-~, :;
3529
1 what you are asking?
3-2 2 MR. NEGUS: I really just want to ask him why. I
3 mean, if I could do that without Mr. Kochis saying "It
4 assumes facts not in evidence."
5 THE COURT: Go ahead.
6 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) It says that in that -- In that
7 particular manual, it says that you are supposed to
8 package small, moveable objects in such a way that one
9 stained region will not rub against another surface: is
10 that correct?
11 A That's part of what (3) (a) says.
12 Q Why didn't you do that?
13 A I felt I was doing the reason for that: that is,
14 guarding against contamination, blood being transferred
15 from one area of the sheet to another.
16 To my knowledge, dry blood on sheeting material
will not transfer, at least for serological purposes,
18 unless it's wet or damp.
19 Q But you don't know whether it was damp?
20 A The bottom sheet I don't recall.
21 Q Showing you H-287, that's a photograph of the bottom
22 sheet, correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And the areas, dark areas on that bottom sheet are
25 blood, correct?
26 A Yes.
" U , , I-' U , , , , '-~, :;
3530
Q There are distinct areas of saturated sheet; is that
3-3 2 correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q One is on one side of the bed and one on the other side
5 of the bed?
6 A Yes.
7 Q When you packaged that, did you know whether that blood
8 carne from the same person or not?
9 A No.
10 Q \'las it at least a reasonable possibility that it didn't?
11 A It was a possibility, yes.
12 Q And therefore, in packaging it, ~ould you want to try
13 and preserve one side of that from touching the other
14 side?
15 A If the blood is dry and there is no possibility of
16 contamination, there is no reason to prevent one side
17 touching the other.
18 If one side is wet, yes, there would be if what you
19 are collecting it for is serological purposes.
20 Q You and Miss Schechter together folded the sheets, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And what you did is you put your arms out and walked
23 together and folded it in halves, then quarters and
24 then eighths?
25 A Basically, that was the method, yes.
26 Q When you did it, you first took the side that -- one of
~
n u , I
" U , I
:I L n U
3530
Q There are distinct areas of saturated sheet; is that
3-3 2 correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q One is on one side of the bed and one on the other side
5 of the bed?
6 A Yes.
7 Q When you packaged that, did you know whether that blood
8 carne from the same person or not?
9 A No.
10 Q \'las it at least a reasonable possibility that it didn't?
11 A It was a possibility, yes.
12 Q And therefore, in packaging it, ~ould you want to try
13 and preserve one side of that from touching the other
14 side?
15 A If the blood is dry and there is no possibility of
16 contamination, there is no reason to prevent one side
17 touching the other.
18 If one side is wet, yes, there would be if what you
19 are collecting it for is serological purposes.
20 Q You and Miss Schechter together folded the sheets, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And what you did is you put your arms out and walked
23 together and folded it in halves, then quarters and
24 then eighths?
25 A Basically, that was the method, yes.
26 Q When you did it, you first took the side that -- one of
~
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:I L n U
it
1
3-4 2
3
4
5 A
6 Q
7
8 A
9 Q
10
11
12 ~,
13 A
14
15 Q
16 A
17 Q
18 A
19 Q
20 A
21
22
23
24 Q
25
26
~"
3531
you took the side where Douglas Ryen had been found
the the other of you took the side across from where
Douglas Ryen had been found and you walked those two
sides together; is that correct?
I don't recall if that was the exact procedure used.
And you don't know whether the side that had Douglas
Ryen's body on it was dry or not, correct?
I don't recall at this point.
After you learned that there was blood that didn't come
from a victim in the Ryen house, you then went through
all three of the items of bedding there and took some
39 samples; is that correct?
I don't recall how many samples I took, but I did go
through those items of bedding, yes.
Does 39 sound in the approximate order of magnitude?
Possibly, yes. •
Do you have notes?
Yes.
Could you check them?
On the bottom sheet, A-IO, I have items A through J.
On the top sheet, items A through K. And on the
comforter, items A through T, however many that counts
up to.
And you found time in your laboratory work to yourself
do serological analysis on each of those 39 samples,
correct?
'" U , , " U , , :I L , ,
it
1
3-4 2
3
4
5 A
6 Q
7
8 A
9 Q
10
11
12 ~,
13 A
14
15 Q
16 A
17 Q
18 A
19 Q
20 A
21
22
23
24 Q
25
26
~"
3531
you took the side where Douglas Ryen had been found
the the other of you took the side across from where
Douglas Ryen had been found and you walked those two
sides together; is that correct?
I don't recall if that was the exact procedure used.
And you don't know whether the side that had Douglas
Ryen's body on it was dry or not, correct?
I don't recall at this point.
After you learned that there was blood that didn't come
from a victim in the Ryen house, you then went through
all three of the items of bedding there and took some
39 samples; is that correct?
I don't recall how many samples I took, but I did go
through those items of bedding, yes.
Does 39 sound in the approximate order of magnitude?
Possibly, yes. •
Do you have notes?
Yes.
Could you check them?
On the bottom sheet, A-IO, I have items A through J.
On the top sheet, items A through K. And on the
comforter, items A through T, however many that counts
up to.
And you found time in your laboratory work to yourself
do serological analysis on each of those 39 samples,
correct?
'" U , , " U , , :I L , ,
3-5 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
3532
A Not on every single one of them. Some of them, yes.
Mr. Gregonis did some testing on the others.
Q All 39 were tested; is that correct?
A I don't recall if every single one of them was run.
I would have to go through the notes for that.
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. 39 samples from
where particularly?
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) The 39 samples that I have been talking
about are from the comforter that was on the bed and the
two bedsheets; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Were there also two pillows in the room?
A One was definitely in the room. One was sort of
Q
A
Q
A
Q
between the bedroom and the bathroom right in the door
jamb area.
One of them was on the bed on Douglas Ryen's side of
the bed, the side where Douglas Ryen's body was found,
right?
Yes.
And the other was over propped up against the door
leading from the master bedroom into the master
bathroom; is that correct?
Yes.
You never actually did preserve the sheets or any of
the bedding for serological analysis, did you?
wait a minute. toJithdraw the question.
" U
"
, , U , , :I l. :I t:
3-5 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
3532
A Not on every single one of them. Some of them, yes.
Mr. Gregonis did some testing on the others.
Q All 39 were tested; is that correct?
A I don't recall if every single one of them was run.
I would have to go through the notes for that.
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. 39 samples from
where particularly?
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) The 39 samples that I have been talking
about are from the comforter that was on the bed and the
two bedsheets; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Were there also two pillows in the room?
A One was definitely in the room. One was sort of
Q
A
Q
A
Q
between the bedroom and the bathroom right in the door
jamb area.
One of them was on the bed on Douglas Ryen's side of
the bed, the side where Douglas Ryen's body was found,
right?
Yes.
And the other was over propped up against the door
leading from the master bedroom into the master
bathroom; is that correct?
Yes.
You never actually did preserve the sheets or any of
the bedding for serological analysis, did you?
wait a minute. toJithdraw the question.
" U
"
, , U , , :I l. :I t:
1
3-6 2
3 A
4
5
6
7
8 Q
9
10 A
11
12 Q
13 A
14 Q
15
16
17 A
18
19
20
21 Q
22
23 A
24 Q
25
26 A
3533
Did you ever preserve the sheets and the bedding
for serological analysis?
In some ways, yes, and some ways, no. Those articles
we just talked of, 39 of them were frozen. That would
be preserved for serological purposes.
The vast majority of the sheeting was kept in just
boxes at room temperature.
Therefore, they were not preserved for serological
analysis; is that correct?
For a vast majority of serological typings, that's
correct. You could still go back and do some of them.
ABO?
ABO, possibly some other antigens.
The only antigens that you could do at this particular
point in time would be ones in this particular case
wouldn't discriminate among victims or suspects, correct?
The ABO antigens would not discriminate. There are
possibly some other antigens that we do not necessarily
do in our laboratory that might be able to be run on
those sheets at this stage.
H-102 shows the pillow that wasn't on the bed; is that
correct?
Yes.
And the pillow case has various blood patterns on it;
is that correct?
Yes.
n u
"
~ , U
~ , , 1--, :J
1
3-6 2
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5
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11
12 Q
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14 Q
15
16
17 A
18
19
20
21 Q
22
23 A
24 Q
25
26 A
3533
Did you ever preserve the sheets and the bedding
for serological analysis?
In some ways, yes, and some ways, no. Those articles
we just talked of, 39 of them were frozen. That would
be preserved for serological purposes.
The vast majority of the sheeting was kept in just
boxes at room temperature.
Therefore, they were not preserved for serological
analysis; is that correct?
For a vast majority of serological typings, that's
correct. You could still go back and do some of them.
ABO?
ABO, possibly some other antigens.
The only antigens that you could do at this particular
point in time would be ones in this particular case
wouldn't discriminate among victims or suspects, correct?
The ABO antigens would not discriminate. There are
possibly some other antigens that we do not necessarily
do in our laboratory that might be able to be run on
those sheets at this stage.
H-102 shows the pillow that wasn't on the bed; is that
correct?
Yes.
And the pillow case has various blood patterns on it;
is that correct?
Yes.
n u
"
~ , U
~ , , 1--, :J
1
3-7 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 '~"
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/",
3534
Q Did you preserve that pillow case for serological
analysis?
A I did not freeze it or a portion of it.
Q Why not?
A At the time I collected it, I was not collecting it
for the primary purpose of doing serological testing
on it.
Q Nhy not?
A I didn't feel the test would be warranted.
Q l\,hy not?
A There was blood associated with that pillow on the floor,
the bathroom floor, and I did collect that blood and
that blood was tested.
Q Did you make the inference when you were collecting that
that the pillow had been propelled through the air from
some spot and had landed hitting the bathroom door?
A Yes.
Q Did you also infer that all the blood on the pillow was
the same?
A I did not necessarily infer that, no.
(No omissions.)
n u , , " U , , :J L U ,
1
3-7 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 '~"
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/",
3534
Q Did you preserve that pillow case for serological
analysis?
A I did not freeze it or a portion of it.
Q Why not?
A At the time I collected it, I was not collecting it
for the primary purpose of doing serological testing
on it.
Q Nhy not?
A I didn't feel the test would be warranted.
Q l\,hy not?
A There was blood associated with that pillow on the floor,
the bathroom floor, and I did collect that blood and
that blood was tested.
Q Did you make the inference when you were collecting that
that the pillow had been propelled through the air from
some spot and had landed hitting the bathroom door?
A Yes.
Q Did you also infer that all the blood on the pillow was
the same?
A I did not necessarily infer that, no.
(No omissions.)
n u , , " U , , :J L U ,
/---'\
4-1
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
r-" 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/""'.
Q.
A.
Q.
3535
Did you believe that no useful information could be
obtained by doing serological analysis on the pillowcase?
I wouldn't say that no useful information could not be
derived. To how much benefit it would be, that I
thought was in question, seeing as I did collect blood
that I felt was associated with that pillow already and
that was examined.
Did you think that no useful information could be
obtained from the sheets?
MR. KOCHIS: Well, Your Honor, I'm going to object,
vague as to the word use ful. \,lha t 's he ta lking about? In
whose definition? A Hitch motion, trial, his own curiosity?
THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer.
MR. NEGUS: Just for -- if I could rephrase the
question.
Q.
A.
Q.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NEGUS: I like Mr. Kochis's objection.
(BY MR. NEGUS: ) All the evidence that you were collecting
was being collected for the purpose of either identifying
an assailant or to determine what had happened during
the crime; is that correct?
That's a pretty good explanation of the purposes for
collecting this evidence.
Okay. Now, did you think that there was no useful
evidence that could have been preserved by freezing the
sheets for those purposes?
. ,-, U , , " U , , ~, ,--,-"3
/---'\
4-1
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
r-" 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/""'.
Q.
A.
Q.
3535
Did you believe that no useful information could be
obtained by doing serological analysis on the pillowcase?
I wouldn't say that no useful information could not be
derived. To how much benefit it would be, that I
thought was in question, seeing as I did collect blood
that I felt was associated with that pillow already and
that was examined.
Did you think that no useful information could be
obtained from the sheets?
MR. KOCHIS: Well, Your Honor, I'm going to object,
vague as to the word use ful. \,lha t 's he ta lking about? In
whose definition? A Hitch motion, trial, his own curiosity?
THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer.
MR. NEGUS: Just for -- if I could rephrase the
question.
Q.
A.
Q.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NEGUS: I like Mr. Kochis's objection.
(BY MR. NEGUS: ) All the evidence that you were collecting
was being collected for the purpose of either identifying
an assailant or to determine what had happened during
the crime; is that correct?
That's a pretty good explanation of the purposes for
collecting this evidence.
Okay. Now, did you think that there was no useful
evidence that could have been preserved by freezing the
sheets for those purposes?
. ,-, U , , " U , , ~, ,--,-"3
1 A-
2
3
4
5
6
7 0-
8
9
10 A-
II 0-
12
~ .. 13 A-
14
15
16
17
18
19 0-
20
21 A-
22 0-
23
24
25
26 A-
I~'"
3536
I'm not saying that some useful information could not
have been derived from it. What I'm saying is the
benefits that one would receive from it were not justified
by the amount of time that would be put into it, at
least at that stage of the game what we were speaking of,
what they were thinking.
How much time would it have taken to wrap the sheet in
paper so that -- each of the sheets in paper so that one
surface didn't come in contact with another?
Minutes.
How much time , .. ould it have taken to put the sheet in
the freezer?
Minutes.
THE COURT: Would you like to have a recess?
HR. NEGUS: Sure. That's fine.
THE COURT: Let's take the morning recess.
(Recess. )
THE COURT: Go ahead.
(BY HR. NEGUS:) How many locational patterns did you
see in the Ryen bedroom?
I wouldn't really say I did find any.
You indicated that your criterion for selecting was
based on locational pattern where there were a significant
amount of space between the different patterns of blood,
right?
Yes.
" U
"
, , U , , -:, C
6
~ ..
1 A-
2
3
4
5
6
7 0-
8
9
10 A-
II 0-
12
13 A-
14
15
16
17
18
19 0-
20
21 A-
22 0-
23
24
25
26 A-
3536
I'm not saying that some useful information could not
have been derived from it. What I'm saying is the
benefits that one would receive from it were not justified
by the amount of time that would be put into it, at
least at that stage of the game what we were speaking of,
what they were thinking.
How much time would it have taken to wrap the sheet in
paper so that -- each of the sheets in paper so that one
surface didn't come in contact with another?
Minutes.
How much time , .. ould it have taken to put the sheet in
the freezer?
Minutes.
THE COURT: Would you like to have a recess?
HR. NEGUS: Sure. That's fine.
THE COURT: Let's take the morning recess.
(Recess. )
THE COURT: Go ahead.
(BY HR. NEGUS:) How many loeational patterns did you
see in the Ryen bedroom?
I wouldn't really say I did find any.
You indicated that your criterion for selecting was
based on locational pattern where there were a significant
amount of spaee between the different patterns of blood,
right?
Yes.
" U
"
, , U , , -:, .--6
3537
1 0. And how many different patterns did you see in the
2 Ryen bedroom?
3 A. According to that criterion, ten.
4 0. At the Preliminary Hearing, Volume 19, Page 86, you
5 testified that it was somewhere between 10 and 20; is
6 that correct?
7 A. I suppose so. I'd have to reread the transcripts.
8 0.
9 A.
Do you have your transcript with you?
No, I do not.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Kochis, you can stipulate if it's --
11 MR. NEGUS: I was just going to ask to read it from
12 Lines 14 through 18.
13 THE COURT: Go ahead.
14 MR. NEGUS: Question: \iell, let's -- let'S just
15 talk about the locational patterns where you don't have a
16 problem with the time where you could be reasonably
17 confident that the blood came from the same source.
18 Answer: Between 10 and 20.
19 0. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Why did you collect the low end rather
20 than the high end of the patterns?
21 A. I felt that was sufficient.
22 0. Why didn't you apply the maxim that it's better to
23 take more than less?
24 A. I felt that what I had taken was sufficient. I really
25 don't know how to apply what my answer is to the maxim
26 of more than less.
1
';";.' ,-, U , , I-' U , , ~,
C -, ,
3537
1 0. And how many different patterns did you see in the
2 Ryen bedroom?
3 A. According to that criterion, ten.
4 0. At the Preliminary Hearing, Volume 19, Page 86, you
5 testified that it was somewhere between 10 and 20; is
6 that correct?
7 A.
8 0.
9 A.
10
I suppose so. I'd have to reread the transcripts.
Do you have your transcript with you?
No, I do not.
THE COURT: Mr. Kochis, you can stipulate if it's --
11 MR. NEGUS: I was just going to ask to read it from
12 Lines 14 through 18.
13 THE COURT: Go ahead.
14 MR. NEGUS: Question: \iell, let's -- let'S just
15 talk about the locational patterns where you don't have a
16 problem with the time where you could be reasonably
17 confident that the blood came from the same source.
18
19 0.
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24 A.
25
Answer: Between 10 and 20.
(BY MR. NEGUS:) Why did you collect the low end rather
than the high end of the patterns?
I felt that was sufficient.
Why didn't you apply the maxim that it's better to
take more than less?
I felt that what I had taken was sufficient. I really
don't know how to apply what my answer is to the maxim
26 of more than less.
1
';";.' ,-, U , , I-' U , , ~,
C -, ,
~,
/---"
3538
Q. If there were between 10 and 20, why didn't you take 20
2 to apply the maxim it's better to take more than less?
3 A. Simply because I felt what I was doing was sufficient,
4 that taking 20 samples would not reveal any more inforrna'-
5 tion than the 10 samples.
6 Q. When you first arrived at the scene, were you briefed
7 by Sergeant Arthur?
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A. Yes. Ne had a briefing outside of the residence.
Q. Did Sergeant Arthur tell you any evidence that he wanted
collected?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall if he told you that he wanted to have
collected a sample of blood that was a representative
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
sa~ple of blood from each action as you defined it
yesterday?
I don't recall him saying that.
When you discussed with Mr. Baird your plan of action,
what advice did he give you?
He told me what he had already seen at the crime scene.
He told me a fe~o1 pieces of evidence, for instance the
rope in the driveway, that should be collected fairly
soon. Other than that, he didn't really give me a
tremendous amount of advice.
Well, you did discuss with him what procedures, I mean
what methods you were going to use to collect the
evidence, right?
----, •
n u
I , I-' U
I , -:,
1--.-:, o
~,
/---"
3538
Q. If there were between 10 and 20, why didn't you take 20
2 to apply the maxim it's better to take more than less?
3 A. Simply because I felt what I was doing was sufficient,
4 that taking 20 samples would not reveal any more inforrna'-
5 tion than the 10 samples.
6 Q. When you first arrived at the scene, were you briefed
7 by Sergeant Arthur?
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A. Yes. Ne had a briefing outside of the residence.
Q. Did Sergeant Arthur tell you any evidence that he wanted
collected?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall if he told you that he wanted to have
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
collected a sample of blood that was a representative
sa~ple of blood from each action as you defined it
yesterday?
I don't recall him saying that.
When you discussed with Mr. Baird your plan of action,
what advice did he give you?
He told me what he had already seen at the crime scene.
He told me a fe~o1 pieces of evidence, for instance the
rope in the driveway, that should be collected fairly
soon. Other than that, he didn't really give me a
tremendous amount of advice.
Well, you did discuss with him what procedures, I mean
what methods you were going to use to collect the
evidence, right?
----, •
n u
I , I-' U
I , -:,
1--.-:, o
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
~, 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3539
& I don't even recall having that conversation.
~ At the time that Mr. Baird and you went down to look
at the ax, would that have been between the time that
you collected A-8 and A-9?
k I don't believe so.
~ There's a two-hour gap between the time that A-8 and A-9
were collected; is that correct?
According to our notes -- excuse me, yes, there is about
a two-hour time there.
~ Assuming that the ax was discovered about 3:40 would
that have been consistent, then, with that occurring
between the collection of A-8 and A-9?
& Yes, that's possible.
(No omissions.) .' rl U
I , I-' U
I , ~I 1--'~I :I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
~, 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3539
& I don't even recall having that conversation.
~ At the time that Mr. Baird and you went down to look
at the ax, would that have been between the time that
you collected A-8 and A-9?
k I don't believe so.
~ There's a two-hour gap between the time that A-8 and A-9
were collected; is that correct?
According to our notes -- excuse me, yes, there is about
a two-hour time there.
~ Assuming that the ax was discovered about 3:40 would
that have been consistent, then, with that occurring
between the collection of A-8 and A-9?
& Yes, that's possible.
(No omissions.) .' rl U
I , I-' U
I , ~I 1--'~I :I
1 Q
5-1 2
3
4 A
5 Q
6 A
7 Q
8
9 A
10 Q
11
I~ 12 A
13 Q
14
15 A .. 16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20
21 A
22
23 Q
24
25
26
/"
3540
After you had collected those eight items, did
Mr. Baird give you any advice or suggestions as to
how to proceed further .ith the work?
I don't recall any specific instructions or advice.
Did he ever tell you that you were taking too long?
No.
Did Mr. Baird discuss .ith you how many blood samples
to take?
I don't recall having any discussion like that.
Did Mr. Baird discuss with you whether to document the
precise locations from .hich you seized blood?
I don't recall any conversation to that nature, either.
When you were seizing the various items of evidence from
the bed, there was also a mattress pad; is that correct?
Yes.
~'Jas the mattress pad dried?
I don't recall if it was completely dry or not.
When you were packaging the items, you originally
packaged the mattress pad and the bottom sheet, A-la,
together, right?
I don't recall. I would have to go back to the laborator'
and look at that evidence.
The notes there, you can look at your notes there.
If you look at A-12, that's the mattress pad,
correct? And look at A-la, that's the top sheet, correct
And it indicates that A-IO was originally packaged with
i
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3
4 A
5 Q
6 A
7 Q
8
9 A
10 Q
11
I~ 12 A
13 Q
14
15 A .. 16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20
21 A
22
23 Q
24
25
26
/"
3540
After you had collected those eight items, did
Mr. Baird give you any advice or suggestions as to
how to proceed further .ith the work?
I don't recall any specific instructions or advice.
Did he ever tell you that you were taking too long?
No.
Did Mr. Baird discuss .ith you how many blood samples
to take?
I don't recall having any discussion like that.
Did Mr. Baird discuss with you whether to document the
precise locations from .hich you seized blood?
I don't recall any conversation to that nature, either.
When you were seizing the various items of evidence from
the bed, there was also a mattress pad; is that correct?
Yes.
~'Jas the mattress pad dried?
I don't recall if it was completely dry or not.
When you were packaging the items, you originally
packaged the mattress pad and the bottom sheet, A-la,
together, right?
I don't recall. I would have to go back to the laborator
and look at that evidence.
The notes there, you can look at your notes there.
If you look at A-12, that's the mattress pad,
correct? And look at A-la, that's the top sheet, correct
And it indicates that A-IO was originally packaged with
i
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9
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13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3541
A-12, correct?
A That's the notes that Miss Schechter has written down
here. I don't recall that offhand.
Q Do you recall that -- Do you recall at 9:15 or so
taking the mattress pad out from the bedsheet and doing
it separately?
A Excuse me?
Q Do you recall at approximately 9:15 that evening taking
the mattress pad and the bottom sheet, A-la, and
separating them to separate packages?
A I don't recall that, no.
Q t\hen you talked to Mr. Baird, did he tell you anything
about the order in which to collect the items?
A I don't believe so.
Q The item that Mr. Baird pointed out to you was a rope on
the driveway: is that correct?
A Yes.
Q That was A-3?
A Yes.
Q Then did you make the decision as to which order to
seize that?
A Yes.
Q When you testified yesterday, you said that there were
other items in the master bedroom that were more pressing
than the carpet as far as collecting evidence. Do you
remember that?
I I
.. ,. LI
I ,. LI
-
5-2 2 A
3
4 Q
5
6
7 A
8 Q
9
10
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12 Q ~.
13
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15 Q
16
17 A
18 Q
19 A
20 Q
21
22 A
23 Q
24
25
26
3541
A-12, correct?
That's the notes that Miss Schechter has written down
here. I don't recall that offhand.
Do you recall that -- Do you recall at 9:15 or so
taking the mattress pad out from the bedsheet and doing
it separately?
Excuse me?
Do you recall at approximately 9:15 that evening taking
the mattress pad and the bottom sheet, A-la, and
separating them to separate packages?
I don't recall that, no.
t\hen you talked to Mr. Baird, did he tell you anything
about the order in which to collect the items?
I don't believe so.
The item that Mr. Baird pointed out to you was a rope on
the driveway: is that correct?
Yes.
That was A-3?
Yes.
Then did you make the decision as to which order to
seize that?
Yes.
When you testified yesterday, you said that there were
other items in the master bedroom that were more pressing
than the carpet as far as collecting evidence. Do you
remember that?
I I
.. ,. LI
I ,. LI
-
1 A
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3 A
4
5
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8
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14
15
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17
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19
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21 Q
22
23
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26
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3542
I recall saying something like that, yes.
What evidence was more pressing than the carpet?
Most of the evidence such as the sheets for the mere
reason that it was closer to our entrance point into
that bedroom.
The sheet was closer than the carpet?
There was nothing on the carpet that we were going to
collect between the area from the entrance to the bed
other than the telephone.
What about A-23 and A-24?
That still isn't in the direct path between the door
and the bed.
Leaving aside the telephone, I think we established
yesterday when you started collecting evidence, you
started at the foot of the bed; is that right?
I don't recall that I exactly started at the foot of
the bed. That's where the tourniquet was.
And the comforter was more toward the foot of the bed
than the other bedding?
It was amassed near the foot of the bed, yes.
The crown was on the side of the bed furtherest away
from the sliding glass door? That was the one that
you did after the comforter; is that correct?
Yes.
And then the blanket that you did after the crown was
also toward the foot of the bed?
·7·· .......... -· ..... ..., ....... -.'7"" ..
. " U I ,
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19
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22
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26
/~
3542
I recall saying something like that, yes.
What evidence was more pressing than the carpet?
Most of the evidence such as the sheets for the mere
reason that it was closer to our entrance point into
that bedroom.
The sheet was closer than the carpet?
There was nothing on the carpet that we were going to
collect between the area from the entrance to the bed
other than the telephone.
What about A-23 and A-24?
That still isn't in the direct path between the door
and the bed.
Leaving aside the telephone, I think we established
yesterday when you started collecting evidence, you
started at the foot of the bed; is that right?
I don't recall that I exactly started at the foot of
the bed. That's where the tourniquet was.
And the comforter was more toward the foot of the bed
than the other bedding?
It was amassed near the foot of the bed, yes.
The crown was on the side of the bed furtherest away
from the sliding glass door? That was the one that
you did after the comforter; is that correct?
Yes.
And then the blanket that you did after the crown was
also toward the foot of the bed?
·7·· .......... -· ..... ..., ....... -.'7"" ..
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3543
A Yes.
Q So you started from the foot of the bed; is that correct?
A That's where most of the items were, yes.
Q So you passed A-24 and A-25 to get to the foot of the
bed, right?
A
Q
A
I walked around them, yes.
And likewise you passed A-14 to get there, right?
Yes.
Q Did the bed appear to you to have been contaminated?
A I don't understand the question. Contaminated from
wha t source?
Q Well, did the bed appear to you to have had additional
items deposited on it after the crime was over and the
assailants fled?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection. That assumes a fact that is
not in evidence that there were assailants, for one.
MR. NEGUS: Assailant or assailants.
MR. KOCHIS: And it calls for speculation as to what
may have been on the bed at the time the assailant left.
THE COURT: He saw it. He can explain it.
Overruled.
THE WITh~SS: There was a tourniquet or an elastic
material there that was used for a tourniquet on the bed
that is something I don't think was there other than when
the paramedics were inside the bedroom.
Q And the tourniquet appeared to be tucked in underneath
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20
21
22
23
24
25
26
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3543
A Yes.
Q So you started from the foot of the bed; is that correct?
A That's where most of the items were, yes.
Q So you passed A-24 and A-25 to get to the foot of the
bed, right?
A I walked around them, yes.
Q And likewise you passed A-14 to get there, right?
A Yes.
Q Did the bed appear to you to have been contaminated?
A I don't understand the question. Contaminated from
wha t source?
Q Well, did the bed appear to you to have had additional
items deposited on it after the crime was over and the
assailants fled?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection. That assumes a fact that is
not in evidence that there were assailants, for one.
MR. NEGUS: Assailant or assailants.
MR. KOCHIS: And it calls for speculation as to what
may have been on the bed at the time the assailant left.
THE COURT: He saw it. He can explain it.
Overruled.
THE WITh~SS: There was a tourniquet or an elastic
material there that was used for a tourniquet on the bed
that is something I don't think was there other than when
the paramedics were inside the bedroom.
Q And the tourniquet appeared to be tucked in underneath
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17
18
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21 A
22 Q
23
24 A
25 Q
26
,~~
3544
some of the covers; is that correct?
I don't recall.
Showing you H-211, does it appear to be tucked in
under the covers there?
No. It appears to me to be laying on top of the
comforter.
Did there appear to you to be any feces on the sheet?
There was some material which may have been fecal matter
on one of the sheets. I don't recall offhand whether it
was the top or the bottom sheet.
Showing you H-l52, does that depict in brown there fecal
matter?
That's the material that I'm speaking of, yes.
And was there fecal matter on Josh's clothes on the floor
Yes.
Would there appear on the sheet right ~ext to the fecal
matter a series of parallel lines impressed in blood or
some other substance?
There is that pattern, yes.
Did that appear to you to be the result of contamination?
It could have been.
Why was the material on the bed, then, more pressing
than the carpet?
I'm still not understanding the question.
You said that there were lots of items in the bedroom
that were more pressing as far as seizure than the
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4
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26
,~~
3544
some of the covers; is that correct?
I don't recall.
Showing you H-211, does it appear to be tucked in
under the covers there?
No. It appears to me to be laying on top of the
comforter.
Did there appear to you to be any feces on the sheet?
There was some material which may have been fecal matter
on one of the sheets. I don't recall offhand whether it
was the top or the bottom sheet.
Showing you H-l52, does that depict in brown there fecal
matter?
That's the material that I'm speaking of, yes.
And was there fecal matter on Josh's clothes on the floor~
Yes.
Would there appear on the sheet right ~ext to the fecal
matter a series of parallel lines impressed in blood or
some other substance?
There is that pattern, yes.
Did that appear to you to be the result of contamination?
It could have been.
Why was the material on the bed, then, more pressing
than the carpet?
I'm still not understanding the question.
You said that there were lots of items in the bedroom
that were more pressing as far as seizure than the
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( 1
5-6 2
3
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19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
carpet. Why were the items on the bed more pressing
than the carpet?
}ffi. KOCHIS: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
3545
THE WITNESS: For the ease of access. It was near
our entrance point into the bedroom.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Showing you this H-288, does it appear
to be a diagram originally prepared by yourself,
slightly modified?
A Yes.
Q Can you put the location where A-6 was found?
A Red ink?
Q Fine.
A (\-htness complied.) This is the approximate location.
Q That's on the opposite side of the room from your
exit and entrance; is that correct?
A Yes. Opposite side of the bed. The opposite side of the
room is the entrance to the hallway.
Q Nell, it's in close proximity to the west wall and your
entrance is on the east wall; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q \"las its proximity to your entrance the reason that you
thought that the crown was more pressing, it was more
pressing to seize the crown than it was to do the
carpet?
A I'm not quite certain what you mean by seizing the
n u
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24
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26
carpet. Why were the items on the bed more pressing
than the carpet?
}ffi. KOCHIS: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
3545
THE WITNESS: For the ease of access. It was near
our entrance point into the bedroom.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Showing you this H-288, does it appear
to be a diagram originally prepared by yourself,
slightly modified?
A Yes.
Q Can you put the location where A-6 was found?
A Red ink?
Q Fine.
A (\-htness complied.) This is the approximate location.
Q That's on the opposite side of the room from your
exit and entrance; is that correct?
A Yes. Opposite side of the bed. The opposite side of the
room is the entrance to the hallway.
Q Nell, it's in close proximity to the west wall and your
entrance is on the east wall; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q \"las its proximity to your entrance the reason that you
thought that the crown was more pressing, it was more
pressing to seize the crown than it was to do the
carpet?
A I'm not quite certain what you mean by seizing the
n u
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24
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3546
carpet. You mean items from the carpet?
If I misspoke, I will try and ask the question again.
\vas the proximity of the crown to your entrance the
reason you thought it was more pressing to seize the
crown than the process the carpet?
No.
Why did you think it was more pressing to seize the
crown than to process the carpet?
The crown was along with the bedding material. We were
processing the bedding material, and rather than lose
the items of evidence on the bed, once we had started,
we continued with that.
Why did you think it was more important to preserve the
items on the bed than it was to preserve the items on
the carpet?
No particular reason, other than I didn't feel that the
carpeting was all that necessary. There had already been
numerous people in there which had contaminated, or
whatever you want to call it, the area near our entrance
point.
Why did you go back in the third week of June to vacuum
the carpet?
Because we were asked to.
(No omissions.)
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1
5-7 2 Q
3
4
5
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7 Q
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22
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24
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26
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3546
carpet. You mean items from the carpet?
If I misspoke, I will try and ask the question again.
\vas the proximity of the crown to your entrance the
reason you thought it was more pressing to seize the
crown than the process the carpet?
No.
Why did you think it was more pressing to seize the
crown than to process the carpet?
The crown was along with the bedding material. We were
processing the bedding material, and rather than lose
the items of evidence on the bed, once we had started,
we continued with that.
\-ihy did you think it was more important to preserve the
items on the bed than it was to preserve the items on
the carpet?
No particular reason, other than I didn't feel that the
carpeting was all that necessary. There had already been
numerous people in there which had contaminated, or
whatever you want to call it, the area near our entrance
point.
Why did you go back in the third week of June to vacuum
the carpet?
Because we were asked to.
(No omissions.)
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~.
6-1 3547
1 Q. By whom?
2 k By the investigators.
3 ~ Why did you go back to luminol?
4 k Because we were asked to.
5 Q. By whom?
6 k By the investigators.
7 Q. Do you know specifically which investigators?
8 I don't recall off hand.
9 Q. By doing a microscopic examination of hair, can
10 criminalists distinguish between different types of
11 cutting instruments that were used to cut it?
12 XR. KOCHIS: Objection, no foundation on his part.
/-------- 13 THE COURT: You're asking him about the competency
14 of other people now. That' sa good objection.· Sustained.
15 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Are you aware generally of the
16 criminological literature concerning hair?
17 k Some aspects of hair.
18 Q. Yesterday you testified that in your knowledge
19 criminalists can tell whether hair has been cut; is
20 that correct?
21 k Yes.
22 Q. When they tell that, are they able also to distinguish
23 between different types of cutting instruments?
24 k I don't know that.
25 Q. When did you come to the opinion that Josh was not in
26 the bathroom?
n u , , ,-, U , , ~,
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~.
6-1 3547
1 Q. By whom?
2 k By the investigators.
3 ~ Why did you go back to luminol?
4 k Because we were asked to.
5 Q. By whom?
6 k By the investigators.
7 Q. Do you know specifically which investigators?
8 I don't recall off hand.
9 Q. By doing a microscopic examination of hair, can
10 criminalists distinguish between different types of
11 cutting instruments that were used to cut it?
12 XR. KOCHIS: Objection, no foundation on his part.
/-------- 13 THE COURT: You're asking him about the competency
14 of other people now. That' sa good objection.· Sustained.
15 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Are you aware generally of the
16 criminological literature concerning hair?
17 k Some aspects of hair.
18 Q. Yesterday you testified that in your knowledge
19 criminalists can tell whether hair has been cut; is
20 that correct?
21 k Yes.
22 Q. When they tell that, are they able also to distinguish
23 between different types of cutting instruments?
24 k I don't know that.
25 Q. When did you come to the opinion that Josh was not in
26 the bathroom?
n u , , ,-, U , , ~,
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3548
1 ~ I didn't come to that opinion.
2 ~ When did you discover that Josh had not been found in
3 the bathroom?
4 ~ I don't believe I was ever told that.
5 ~ Yesterday you said that you had some unfounded information
6 that Josh was found in the bathroom, correct?
7 The information was from a source I don't recall, maybe
8 an investigator or something. But as I said, it was
9 unreliable is what I termed it, not unfounded.
10 ~ Sorry. When did you determine that is was unreliable?
11 ~ The time when the investigator told me that he had
12 gotten it secondhand or whatever. I don't recall the
13 exact nature of it, but it in essence was unreliable at
14 the time.
15 ~ You found Josh's cut-off clothing between Peggy Ryen and
16 Christopher Hughes: is that correct?
17 ~ His cut-off clothing, yes.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~ And at the time there was a pool of blood between Peggy
and Chris in close proximity to his cut-off clothing:
is that correct?
~ There's blood near the clothing, yes.
~ It's a round -- it's not just a drop, but it's a large
area, is that correct, a couple feet across?
~ Well, there's much blood right in that general vicinity.
~ You had identified the clothing, that multi-colored
clothing, between Chris and Peggy as Josh's before you
, i
L.--f ";"~T'''''_'''''-
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3548
1 ~ I didn't come to that opinion.
2 ~ When did you discover that Josh had not been found in
3 the bathroom?
4 ~ I don't believe I was ever told that.
5 ~ Yesterday you said that you had some unfounded information
6 that Josh was found in the bathroom, correct?
7 The information was from a source I don't recall, maybe
8 an investigator or something. But as I said, it was
9 unreliable is what I termed it, not unfounded.
10 ~ Sorry. When did you determine that is was unreliable?
11 ~ The time when the investigator told me that he had
12 gotten it secondhand or whatever. I don't recall the
13 exact nature of it, but it in essence was unreliable at
14 the time.
15 ~ You found Josh's cut-off clothing between Peggy Ryen and
16 Christopher Hughes: is that correct?
17 ~ His cut-off clothing, yes.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~ And at the time there was a pool of blood between Peggy
and Chris in close proximity to his cut-off clothing:
is that correct?
~ There's blood near the clothing, yes.
~ It's a round -- it's not just a drop, but it's a large
area, is that correct, a couple feet across?
~ Well, there's much blood right in that general vicinity.
~ You had identified the clothing, that multi-colored
clothing, between Chris and Peggy as Josh's before you
, i
L.--f ";"~T'''''_'''''-
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/----',
3549
1 decided what blood to take out of the bathroom; is that
2 correct?
3 A.
4 0-
5 A.
6
7 0-
8
9 A.
10 0-
11 A.
12 0-
13
Yes.
How did you identify that?
One of the investigators told me that that was in fact
Josh's clothing.
And did they also tell you that that's where Josh was
found?
No.
Did you draw that inference?
No.
Did you know that the only person that the paramedics
had administered to was Josh?
14 A. I didn't have that information.
15 0- Were you told that all the other victims were dead
16 when the bodies were discovered?
17 A.
18
19 0-
20
21 A.
22 0-
23
24
25
26
Not in so many words, but that W3S the inference that I
had.
And the tourniquet from the paramedics was found in the
bedroom rather than the bathroom, right?
Yes.
At the time that you decided to make what -- at the
time you decided which blood to seize from the bathroom,
did you still believe that Josh had been discovered lying
in the bathroom?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that aSSll..'nes a fact that's
n u
"
I , U
I , :I ~
o ~
1
2
3 A-
4 0-
5 A-
6
7 0-
8
9 A-
10 0-
11 A-
12 Q.
13
14 A-
15 0-
16
17 A-
18
19 Q.
20
21 A-
22 Q.
23
24
25
26
3549
decided what blood to take out of the bathroom; is that
correct?
Yes.
How did you identify that?
One of the investigators told me that that was in fact
Josh's clothing.
And did they also tell you that that's where Josh was
found?
No.
Did you draw that inference?
No.
Did you know that the only person that the paramedics
had administered to was Josh?
I didn't have that information.
Were you told that all the other victims were dead
when the bodies were discovered?
Not in so many words, but that W3S the inference that I
had.
And the tourniquet from the paramedics was found in the
bedroom rather than the bathroom, right?
Yes.
At the time that you decided to make what -- at the
time you decided which blood to seize from the bathroom,
did you still believe that Josh had been discovered lying
in the bathroom?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that aSSll..'nes a fact that's
n u
"
I , U
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3550
1 not in evidence. He's never testified that he believed
2 Josh was found lying in the bathroom.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 0. (BY MR. NEGUS:) You had information which at one point
in time you believed Josh was lying in the bathroom, 5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
correct?
A. I had information that was -- that I did not use. I
mean, there was information, but it was of a source that
was not reliable, so I did not use that information.
And, no, I do not and have not said that I thought Josh
was in the bathroom.
0. Why did you seize blood from the carpet in the bathroom?
A. Because that was away from the area of the majority of
the action which had occurred in the bedroom.
0. Can feces be serologically analyzed?
A. There are some methods for determining whether a material
is consistent with being fecal matter or not, but
serological testing is unreliable with fecal matter.
Q. Is it possible to get genetic markers out of feces, any
genetic markers?
MR. KOCHIS: I'm going to object absent some
foundation that he has some background in this area in
analysis of
THE COURT: If he doesn't know, he can say he doesn't
know. He's been giving his opinion on everything so far.
0. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Are there any genetic markets which
.. : ... .; .. ,~.
,. LJ
I
l I , .. ~
/",-- .... "
3550
1 not in evidence. He's never testified that he believed
2 Josh was found lying in the bathroom.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 0. (BY MR. NEGUS:) You had information which at one point
in time you believed Josh was lying in the bathroom, 5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
correct?
A. I had information that was -- that I did not use. I
mean, there was information, but it was of a source that
was not reliable, so I did not use that information.
And, no, I do not and have not said that I thought Josh
was in the bathroom.
0. Why did you seize blood from the carpet in the bathroom?
A. Because that was away from the area of the majority of
the action which had occurred in the bedroom.
0. Can feces be serologically analyzed?
A. There are some methods for determining whether a material
is consistent with being fecal matter or not, but
serological testing is unreliable with fecal matter.
Q. Is it possible to get genetic markers out of feces, any
genetic markers?
MR. KOCHIS: I'm going to object absent some
foundation that he has some background in this area in
analysis of
THE COURT: If he doesn't know, he can say he doesn't
know. He's been giving his opinion on everything so far.
0. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Are there any genetic markets which
.. : ... .; .. ,~.
,. LJ
I
l I , .. ~
1
2 A.
3
4
5
6
7 0-
s A.
9
10
11
12 0-
13
14
15
16 A.
17 0-
18 A.
19
20
21 0-
22
23 A.
24
25
26 0-
/~
3551
are typable from fecal matter?
I wouldn't -- I myself would not feel anything would
be reliable. You could do such things as ABO typing,
but it could very well be contaminated with bacterial
organisms that would change your results. So I would
not feel comfortable with any of the genetic markers.
What about proteins?
It's possible, but again, I would not feel comfortable
calling them. I don't know if there are others in the
field who may have more expertise than I do. But that's
an area that I haven't studied very thoroughly.
Why didn't you seize a sample of that fecal matter for
preservation or that -- erase the question.
Why didn't you seize a sample of that brown stain
to determine what it was?
Which brown stain?
The one that is shown in Photograph H-152.
I seized the entire article, the entire sheet upOn which
that is placed, and it could be collected at a later
time.
Was it preserved so that the kind of testing which is
done to determine fecal matter can be done?
The general test for which fecal matter is determined is
not really affected too much by whether the sample is
frozen as far as I am aware.
Fecal matter often contains blood; is that correct?
.. ,- ..
'n u
I , I-' U
I , LI , , ,
1
2 A.
3
4
5
6
7 0-
s A.
9
10
11
12 0-
13
14
15
16 A.
17 0-
18 A.
19
20
21 0-
22
23 A.
24
25
26 0-
/~
3551
are typable from fecal matter?
I wouldn't -- I myself would not feel anything would
be reliable. You could do such things as ABO typing,
but it could very well be contaminated with bacterial
organisms that would change your results. So I would
not feel comfortable with any of the genetic markers.
What about proteins?
It's possible, but again, I would not feel comfortable
calling them. I don't know if there are others in the
field who may have more expertise than I do. But that's
an area that I haven't studied very thoroughly.
Why didn't you seize a sample of that fecal matter for
preservation or that -- erase the question.
Why didn't you seize a sample of that brown stain
to determine what it was?
Which brown stain?
The one that is shown in Photograph H-152.
I seized the entire article, the entire sheet upOn which
that is placed, and it could be collected at a later
time.
Was it preserved so that the kind of testing which is
done to determine fecal matter can be done?
The general test for which fecal matter is determined is
not really affected too much by whether the sample is
frozen as far as I am aware.
Fecal matter often contains blood; is that correct?
.. ,- ..
'n u
I , I-' U
I , LI , , ,
1 A.
2 0-
3
4 A.
5
6 0-
7 A.
8 0-
9 A.
10
11
12 ,~
13 0-
14 A.
15 0-
16 A.
17 0-
18
19 A.
20
21
22 0-
23
24
25 A.
26 0-
/~,
3552
It can contain blood, yes.
And the blood in fecal matter can be reliably typed;
is that correct?
I'm not aware of that. At least I would not feel
comfortable typing that.
Why didn't you freeze it?
I did not feel there was a need to.
Why not?
Because we were not going to conduct any particular
tests on it that I was aware of, and if anybody was going
to, it would probably have been a decision by someone
else.
Who?
Perhaps Mr. Gregonis.
Did you tell Mr. Gregonis that the stain was on it?
I don't recall.
When you were preserving things, were you just preserving
it for use by your own laboratory?
'~e preserve samples mainly for our use, but also if
there's sufficient sample for later analysis should
that ever become necessary.
Do you try to preserve stuff that you seize and take
into custody so that even if you don't analyze it somebody
else can?
In certain situations we do.
What situation~ are those?
" U , , 1-' U , , U , .:.1 -
1 A.
2 0-
3
4 A.
5
6 0-
7 A.
8 0-
9 A.
10
11
12 ,~
13 0-
14 A.
15 0-
16 A.
17 0-
18
19 A.
20
21
22 0-
23
24
25 A.
26 0-
/~,
3552
It can contain blood, yes.
And the blood in fecal matter can be reliably typed;
is that correct?
I'm not aware of that. At least I would not feel
comfortable typing that.
Why didn't you freeze it?
I did not feel there was a need to.
Why not?
Because we were not going to conduct any particular
tests on it that I was aware of, and if anybody was going
to, it would probably have been a decision by someone
else.
Who?
Perhaps Mr. Gregonis.
Did you tell Mr. Gregonis that the stain was on it?
I don't recall.
When you were preserving things, were you just preserving
it for use by your own laboratory?
'~e preserve samples mainly for our use, but also if
there's sufficient sample for later analysis should
that ever become necessary.
Do you try to preserve stuff that you seize and take
into custody so that even if you don't analyze it somebod~
else can?
In certain situations we do.
What situation~ are those?
" U , , 1-' U , , U , .:.1 -
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ~~~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3553
k In situations where a type of evidence, for instance
blood, could very well be in question as to its source
but we do not have particular time right then and there
to do the work on it. We do not even know if the case
is going to go to court. And so the sample is frozen.
~ Wasn't this such a case where there was all kinds of
blood that people might want to know what the source
was and you aren't going to do the work on it?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that calls for speculation
on his part as to what other people down the line may have
wanted to do.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WI~ESS: There was a problem pretty much with
the time factor. The massive amount of blood in the scene
would have required days of just shear processing to
literally fill wha~space we have, freezer space, for one
individual case. And that was something that I do not think
our laboratory is capable of.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) Would you agree that it would take
two criminalists, two or three days to thoroughly process
the crime scene, seizing all useful serological informatio~?
k According to the standards that I hear you setting forth
in these procedures, no, not even in two or three days
with two criminalists could we do that type of work.
~ Was there other blood in the Ryen house that would have
taken appreciably longer to collect than the blood sample~
n u
"
~ , U
~ , LJ , J ;J
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ~~~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3553
k In situations where a type of evidence, for instance
blood, could very well be in question as to its source
but we do not have particular time right then and there
to do the work on it. We do not even know if the case
is going to go to court. And so the sample is frozen.
~ Wasn't this such a case where there was all kinds of
blood that people might want to know what the source
was and you aren't going to do the work on it?
MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that calls for speculation
on his part as to what other people down the line may have
wanted to do.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WI~ESS: There was a problem pretty much with
the time factor. The massive amount of blood in the scene
would have required days of just shear processing to
literally fill wha~space we have, freezer space, for one
individual case. And that was something that I do not think
our laboratory is capable of.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) Would you agree that it would take
two criminalists, two or three days to thoroughly process
the crime scene, seizing all useful serological informatio~?
k According to the standards that I hear you setting forth
in these procedures, no, not even in two or three days
with two criminalists could we do that type of work.
~ Was there other blood in the Ryen house that would have
taken appreciably longer to collect than the blood sample~
n u
"
~ , U
~ , LJ , J ;J
1
2
3 A.
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3554
that you did? Could you all collect them in approximately
the same way?
I'm not sure I quite understood the question.
(No omissions.)
n u , , I-' U , , U , l/
1
2
3 A.
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3554
that you did? Could you all collect them in approximately
the same way?
I'm not sure I quite understood the question.
(No omissions.)
.. ' ... ~~.
n u , , I-' U , , U , l/
1 Q
7-1 2
3 A
4 Q
5
6 A
7 Q
8
9
10
11 A
12
~ 13 Q
14
15 A
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20 A
21
22 Q
23 A
24 Q
25
26 A
/~,
3555
It took you an hour and 15 minutes to collect the ten
samples that you did; is that correct?
In the bedroom, yes.
So the process of collecting the samples is seven or
eight minutes apiece; is that about right?
Approximately, yes.
Ivas there anything about the vast majority of the blood
in the bedroom on the walls, for example, that if you
took 30 samples, it would take you three hours and
45 minutes, approximately?
According to the method I have been using, yes, that i~
reasonable.
And while you were doing your work, all ~s. Schechter
was doing was taking notes, right?
I wouldn't say that.
\-;'ha t else was she doing?
I don't know. You would have to ask her.
Did you just see her -- She was just standing there
with a note pad in her hand most of the time, wasn't she?
You can certainly do other things while you are taking
notes.
She wasn't collecting any evidence; is that right?
Not at that particular point, no.
And all the information she was taking down was
information that you wrote on your pill boxes, correct?
Basically, yes.
.:,.:....-,.~ ... ~ ... \..
, ,-, U ,
I 1-' LI ,
I U , ,J
1 Q
7-1 2
3 A
4 Q
5
6 A
7 Q
8
9
10
11 A
12
~ 13 Q
14
15 A
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20 A
21
22 Q
23 A
24 Q
25
26 A
/~,
3555
It took you an hour and 15 minutes to collect the ten
samples that you did; is that correct?
In the bedroom, yes.
So the process of collecting the samples is seven or
eight minutes apiece; is that about right?
Approximately, yes.
Ivas there anything about the vast majority of the blood
in the bedroom on the walls, for example, that if you
took 30 samples, it would take you three hours and
45 minutes, approximately?
According to the method I have been using, yes, that i~
reasonable.
And while you were doing your work, all ~s. Schechter
was doing was taking notes, right?
I wouldn't say that.
\-;'ha t else was she doing?
I don't know. You would have to ask her.
Did you just see her -- She was just standing there
with a note pad in her hand most of the time, wasn't she?
You can certainly do other things while you are taking
notes.
She wasn't collecting any evidence; is that right?
Not at that particular point, no.
And all the information she was taking down was
information that you wrote on your pill boxes, correct?
Basically, yes.
.:,.:....-,.~ ... ~ ... \..
, ,-, U ,
I 1-' LI ,
I U , ,J
7-2 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
3556
Q When you \.yere collecting this evidence from the master
bedroom, were you aware of the possibility of
crirninalists other than yourself reconstructing the
actions of the crime from the physical evidence in the
bedroom?
A I knew at that time that reconstructions are possible
to some degree. I don't know that every single action
that occurred that night could be reconstructed, even
allowing for the physical evidence.
Q But you were aware then at least it's possible in some
cases to do reconstructions and other cases not, but
you have to have the evidence preserved in a certain
fashion in order to even attempt it, correct?
A Yes.
Q And were you aware that in some instances that kind of
analysis can answer the question of how many assailants
were involved?
A In certain situations, that is possible.
Q And that it could answer the question as to whether or
not there was any sort of, for example, torture involved
in the case?
MR. KOCHIS: I would object as not being relevant.
First of all, it calls for speculation on his part.
Second of all, as to what type of case we are talking about.
In a case where you have a confession from somebody
and you maintain the physical evidence, perhaps you can
.~. ,",
j ,. lJ
j
L I
•• e
7-2 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
3556
Q When you \.yere collecting this evidence from the master
bedroom, were you aware of the possibility of
crirninalists other than yourself reconstructing the
actions of the crime from the physical evidence in the
bedroom?
A I knew at that time that reconstructions are possible
to some degree. I don't know that every single action
that occurred that night could be reconstructed, even
allowing for the physical evidence.
Q But you were aware then at least it's possible in some
cases to do reconstructions and other cases not, but
you have to have the evidence preserved in a certain
fashion in order to even attempt it, correct?
A Yes.
Q And were you aware that in some instances that kind of
analysis can answer the question of how many assailants
were involved?
A In certain situations, that is possible.
Q And that it could answer the question as to whether or
not there was any sort of, for example, torture involved
in the case?
MR. KOCHIS: I would object as not being relevant.
First of all, it calls for speculation on his part.
Second of all, as to what type of case we are talking about.
In a case where you have a confession from somebody
and you maintain the physical evidence, perhaps you can
.~. ,",
j ,. lJ
j
L I
•• e
1
7-3 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
~ 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
~--.-..., 3557
reconstruct the action. But absent someone who survives
giving an account, I think it calls for speculation on his
part whether he can reconstruct.
MR. NEGUS: I think the questions have all assumed
that we are dealing with physical evidence alone, reconstruct
from physical evidence alone.
THE COURT: Confine your answer to that based upon
physical evidence without regard to confessions and I will
permit it.
THE \\TITNESS: I don' t know of any sources that have
said anything about reconstructing whether a person has been
tortured or not. In any case, some of that might be more
pertinent for a forensic pathologist.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Were you aware that in some instances
the sequence in which the victim dies can be
reconstructed? • A In certain circumstances, that could be possible, yes.
Q And where the victims were in the room at the time that
they were attacked can be reconstructed?
MR. KOCHIS: I object to that as not being relevant
unless we are talking about this particular case. The fact
that in another case, for example, in Barstow where there
is one person, he is tied in a closet and has five bullet
holes in his head
THE COURT: I would like to limit the questioning
here, believe me I would. But under the issue framed, the
n u , , " U , , U , , ,
1
7-3 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
~ 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
~--.-..., 3557
reconstruct the action. But absent someone who survives
giving an account, I think it calls for speculation on his
part whether he can reconstruct.
MR. NEGUS: I think the questions have all assumed
that we are dealing with physical evidence alone, reconstruct
from physical evidence alone.
THE COURT: Confine your answer to that based upon
physical evidence without regard to confessions and I will
permit it.
THE \\TITNESS: I don' t know of any sources that have
said anything about reconstructing whether a person has been
tortured or not. In any case, some of that might be more
pertinent for a forensic pathologist.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Were you aware that in some instances
the sequence in which the victim dies can be
reconstructed? • A In certain circumstances, that could be possible, yes.
Q And where the victims were in the room at the time that
they were attacked can be reconstructed?
MR. KOCHIS: I object to that as not being relevant
unless we are talking about this particular case. The fact
that in another case, for example, in Barstow where there
is one person, he is tied in a closet and has five bullet
holes in his head
THE COURT: I would like to limit the questioning
here, believe me I would. But under the issue framed, the
n u , , " U , , U , , ,
1
7-4 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 r-' , '
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3558
issue before the Court, I do~'t feel I can properly do so.
MR. KOCHIS: I know c~ no case that has been cited
to this Court, whether it's =itch or any case after Hitch,
that treats a crime scene as a piece of evidence which must
be preserved.
THE COURT: We are g~ing to get into that issue
later on. First we will get the evidence. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: I've fcrgotten the question.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Can phys:'cal evidence be used to determin
the position of various ~ictims in a room at the time
that they are attacked?
A Again, in certain cases¥ it's possible.
Q When you were collecting the evidence, were you aware if
that was possible in the Ryen murders?
A I knew that there are te=hniques for doing that, and if
you are asking for my opinion as to whether it was
possible in this case, t=at's a different matter.
Q I'm asking you had you =orrned that opinion.
A I think you are asking me -- You are asking me did I
have the facts or is it ny opinion?
Q At the time that you were collecting evidence, did you
know at that time or die you have an opinion at that
time whether or not it .as possible to do a crime scene
reconstruction from that evidence?
A Yes, I knew at that time that it's possible to do
reconstructions based or:: physical evidence.
n u , , I-' U , , LI , '~I o
1
7-4 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 r-' , '
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3558
issue before the Court, I do~'t feel I can properly do so.
MR. KOCHIS: I know c~ no case that has been cited
to this Court, whether it's =itch or any case after Hitch,
that treats a crime scene as a piece of evidence which must
be preserved.
THE COURT: We are g~ing to get into that issue
later on. First we will get the evidence. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: I've fcrgotten the question.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Can phys:'cal evidence be used to determin
the position of various ~ictims in a room at the time
that they are attacked?
A Again, in certain cases¥ it's possible.
Q When you were collecting the evidence, were you aware if
that was possible in the Ryen murders?
A I knew that there are te=hniques for doing that, and if
you are asking for my opinion as to whether it was
possible in this case, t=at's a different matter.
Q I'm asking you had you =orrned that opinion.
A I think you are asking me -- You are asking me did I
have the facts or is it ny opinion?
Q At the time that you were collecting evidence, did you
know at that time or die you have an opinion at that
time whether or not it .as possible to do a crime scene
reconstruction from that evidence?
A Yes, I knew at that time that it's possible to do
reconstructions based or:: physical evidence.
n u , , I-' U , , LI , '~I o
1
7-5 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
"~~
3559
Q Now, with respect to the Ryen crime scene itself, the
Ryen homicides, did you know \'I1hether or not it would
be possible to do a crime scene reconstruction of the
Ryen homicides?
HR. KOCHIS: I'm going to object as to vagueness.
What type of reconstruction are we talking about? How many
people died? How many assailants were there? It's a vague
question and an answer to that question --
THE COURT: I'm not going to break it down to
sUbparts. Proceed. Overruled.
THE \\'ITNESS: Based on my opinion of that particular
scene and based on the amount of action that had taken place,
I don't think that a full reconstruction is possible.
Q (BY HR. NEGUS) I have got up here on the board --
THE COURT: Now, Hr. Negus, apparently I have given
you the idea that it's proper to break down reconstruction
and do all the various subparts. I'm simply not going to
take all that time.
You have established a foundation as to why he did
certain things and I will permit argument on it and perhaps
permit other witnesses, but to take this witness and go
through each and everyone of them --
MR. NEGUS: The reason I was writing them down is
so I wouldn't have to go through each and everyone of them.
THE COURT: Mr. Negus, the patience of the co:t i~ being sorely tested and it has been for a long tl.me.
" U
"
, , U , , U , o :I
1
7-5 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
"~~
3559
Q Now, with respect to the Ryen crime scene itself, the
Ryen homicides, did you know \'I1hether or not it would
be possible to do a crime scene reconstruction of the
Ryen homicides?
HR. KOCHIS: I'm going to object as to vagueness.
What type of reconstruction are we talking about? How many
people died? How many assailants were there? It's a vague
question and an answer to that question --
THE COURT: I'm not going to break it down to
sUbparts. Proceed. Overruled.
THE \\'ITNESS: Based on my opinion of that particular
scene and based on the amount of action that had taken place,
I don't think that a full reconstruction is possible.
Q (BY HR. NEGUS) I have got up here on the board --
THE COURT: Now, Hr. Negus, apparently I have given
you the idea that it's proper to break down reconstruction
and do all the various subparts. I'm simply not going to
take all that time.
You have established a foundation as to why he did
certain things and I will permit argument on it and perhaps
permit other witnesses, but to take this witness and go
through each and everyone of them --
MR. NEGUS: The reason I was writing them down is
so I wouldn't have to go through each and everyone of them.
THE COURT: Mr. Negus, the patience of the co:t i~ being sorely tested and it has been for a long tl.me.
" U
"
, , U , , U , o :I
7-6
1
2
Mr. Kochis, in your last remarks, you indicated
that you know of no case that imposes a duty upon police
3560
3 to preserve a crime scene as opposed to your objections as
4 to particular evidence from time to time in this motion
5 hearing.
6 Are we simply wasting our time? Is that your
7 position? Why do you wait until now to do that or make
8 that type of an objection? You don't contend, do you, for
9 a moment that there may not be a Hitch violation involved
10 here or many Hitch violations involved? At least it's
11 possible?
12 MR. KOCHIS: No, I don't feel there is a Hitch
13 violation involved in the manner in which the officers
14 processed this scene. I believe there is an issue, but I
15 don't think
16 THE COURT: You are not suggesting for a moment
17 I that this hearing i,s not necessary? If there is an issue,
18 then we reust permit the evidence; is that correct?
19 MR. KOCHIS: As to the issue to which it applies,
20 I do believe that's correct. But I don't know of any
21 case that says the crime scene is a piece of evidence to
-----.r-be preserved. 22
23 THE COURT: Of course, he is talking
24 of the crime scene and the actions of the investigators.
25 Then we have got to go ahead and continue
26 this long motion.
'-, U
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1
2
Mr. Kochis, in your last remarks, you indicated
that you know of no case that imposes a duty upon police
3560
3 to preserve a crime scene as opposed to your objections as
4 to particular evidence from time to time in this motion
5 hearing.
6 Are we simply wasting our time? Is that your
7 position? Why do you wait until now to do that or make
8 that type of an objection? You don't contend, do you, for
9 a moment that there may not be a Hitch violation involved
10 here or many Hitch violations involved? At least it's
11 possible?
12 MR. KOCHIS: No, I don't feel there is a Hitch
13 violation involved in the manner in which the officers
14 processed this scene. I believe there is an issue, but I
15 don't think
16 THE COURT: You are not suggesting for a moment
17 I that this hearing i,s not necessary? If there is an issue,
18 then we reust permit the evidence; is that correct?
19 MR. KOCHIS: As to the issue to which it applies,
20 I do believe that's correct. But I don't know of any
21 case that says the crime scene is a piece of evidence to
22 -----.r-be preserved.
23 THE COURT: Of course, he is talking
24 of the crime scene and the actions of the investigators.
25 Then we have got to go ahead and continue
26 this long motion.
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1 How much longer, Mr. Negus?
3561
""c..'--""f •
2 MR. NEGUS: A long time. I don't anticipate finishin~
3 today.
4 l-1R. KOCHIS: A day and a half.
5 THE COURT: For lack of some better idea as to a
6 way we can expedite it, proceed.
7 MR. NEGUS: Could we just take the lunch recess right
8 now and let me do a little more writing on the board, then I
9 will complete my thing and Mr. Kochis can object or you can
10 sustain the objection?
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THE COURT: 1:30.
(\~hereupon the noon recess was taken.)
(No omissions.)
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1 How much longer, Mr. Negus?
3561
""c..'--""f •
2 MR. NEGUS: A long time. I don't anticipate finishin~
3 today.
4 l-1R. KOCHIS: A day and a half.
5 THE COURT: For lack of some better idea as to a
6 way we can expedite it, proceed.
7 MR. NEGUS: Could we just take the lunch recess right
8 now and let me do a little more writing on the board, then I
9 will complete my thing and Mr. Kochis can object or you can
10 sustain the objection?
11
12
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25
26
THE COURT: 1:30.
(\~hereupon the noon recess was taken.)
(No omissions.)
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3562
S~~ BERNARDINO, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 1984; 1:32
DEPARTMENT NO. 10 HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
(Appearances as heretofore noted.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Negus.
D A V I D C. ~ ! Q ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~, having been previously
duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATIO~ (Resumed)
BY MR. NEGUS:
~ Looking behind you at Exhibit H-16, there is a list of
seven items. Can all of those be determined in some
cases by the examination and analysis of physical
evidence?
MR. KOCHIS: I would object as not being relevant
unless we're talking about this case.
MR. NEGUS: It's merely foundational.
THE COURT: As much as I deplore the time to be
spent upon it, I think I'll allow it. Overruled.
You're speaking generally, now?
MR. NEGUS: Generally, just in general.
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, the other objection I would
have is vague as to what type of case, because obviously
in cases where suspects give film reenactments, this would
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3562
S~~ BERNARDINO, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 1984; 1:32
DEPARTMENT NO. 10 HON. RICHARD C. GARNER, JUDGE
(Appearances as heretofore noted.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Negus.
D A V I D C. ~ ! Q ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~, having been previously
duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATIO~ (Resumed)
BY MR. NEGUS:
~ Looking behind you at Exhibit H-16, there is a list of
seven items. Can all of those be determined in some
cases by the examination and analysis of physical
evidence?
MR. KOCHIS: I would object as not being relevant
unless we're talking about this case.
MR. NEGUS: It's merely foundational.
THE COURT: As much as I deplore the time to be
spent upon it, I think I'll allow it. Overruled.
You're speaking generally, now?
MR. NEGUS: Generally, just in general.
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, the other objection I would
have is vague as to what type of case, because obviously
in cases where suspects give film reenactments, this would
,-, U , , 1-' U , , .:r :I ....
1
2
3
4
5
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7
8
9
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12
(-~" 13
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~
3563
not seem pertinent to our discussion.
MR. NEGUS: The question was physical evidence and
that's all I'm talking about.
THE COURT: Number one, number of assailants; number
two, position of victims when attacked; number three,
sequence of attack; four, type of weapon used; five, whether
or not victims --
MR. NEGUS: Moved from room to room.
THE COURT: -- moved from room to room; six, clues
as to
MR. NEGUS: 1.0. or identity of assailant or
assailants. And seven, the nature, if any, of victim
resistance.
THE COURT: Now, Mr. Kochis, you wanted to amplify.
MR. KOCHIS: He limited his question further.
THE COURT: Can you answer?
THE WITNESS: I'd have to say any of those areas could
be shown by physical evidence, some easier than others,
and not all necessarily in the same case. Maybe one or
another in one case, but not all of them.
Certain ones, like number three, sequence in which
the victims were attacked, are a little bit harder to form
unless you know something other than what physical evidence
is there. You know, eyewitness testimony as to where a
person was to begin with, things like that. Some of these
just require more information that what physical evidence is
I-' U , , ,-:I ~,
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
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12
(-~" 13
14
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3563
not seem pertinent to our discussion.
MR. NEGUS: The question was physical evidence and
that's all I'm talking about.
THE COURT: Number one, number of assailants; number
two, position of victims when attacked; number three,
sequence of attack; four, type of weapon used; five, whether
or not victims --
MR. NEGUS: Moved from room to room.
THE COURT: -- moved from room to room; six, clues
as to
MR. NEGUS: 1.0. or identity of assailant or
assailants. And seven, the nature, if any, of victim
resistance.
THE COURT: Now, Mr. Kochis, you wanted to amplify.
MR. KOCHIS: He limited his question further.
THE COURT: Can you answer?
THE WITNESS: I'd have to say any of those areas could
be shown by physical evidence, some easier than others,
and not all necessarily in the same case. Maybe one or
another in one case, but not all of them.
Certain ones, like number three, sequence in which
the victims were attacked, are a little bit harder to form
unless you know something other than what physical evidence
is there. You know, eyewitness testimony as to where a
person was to begin with, things like that. Some of these
just require more information that what physical evidence is
I-' U , , ,-:I ~,
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
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12 /~
13
14
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26
I~
3564
going to give you.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) So the one that you would say would
require more evidence than the physical evidence would
be number three?
~ That's one. That's just an example. There's difficulties
with each and everyone of those.
~ But in some instances, just in general, in some cases,
all of those questions can be answered by physical
evidence?
~ I would say you couldn't rule out the possibility of that.
Some of those I have seen documentation that, yes, they
were shown by physical evidence. I don't know if I've
seen all seven of those proven by physical evidence
before.
Would there be any of those that you would rule out as
being possible to be proved by physical evidence?
r.1R. KOCHIS: I \o,'ould object. That calls for
speculation if he hasn't seen that happen.
THE COURT: He's already answered that all of them
may be determined partially by physical evidence.
MR. NEGUS: If that's what he answered, I'll withdraw
---
r! l ,. l
the question. ." .. (BY MR. NEGUS:) In the Ryen crime scene, was there .. physical evidence such that had it all been collected t and analyzed all seven of those questions could have been
answered?
1
2
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7
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26
I~
3564
going to give you.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) So the one that you would say would
require more evidence than the physical evidence would
be number three?
~ That's one. That's just an example. There's difficulties
with each and everyone of those.
~ But in some instances, just in general, in some cases,
all of those questions can be answered by physical
evidence?
~ I would say you couldn't rule out the possibility of that.
Some of those I have seen documentation that, yes, they
were shown by physical evidence. I don't know if I've
seen all seven of those proven by physical evidence
before.
Would there be any of those that you would rule out as
being possible to be proved by physical evidence?
r.1R. KOCHIS: I \o,'ould object. That calls for
speculation if he hasn't seen that happen.
THE COURT: He's already answered that all of them
may be determined partially by physical evidence.
MR. NEGUS: If that's what he answered, I'll withdraw
---
r! l ,. l
the question. I .. (BY MR. NEGUS:) In the Ryen crime scene, was there .. physical evidence such that had it all been collected t and analyzed all seven of those questions could have been
answered?
1
2
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3565
MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that would call for
speculation.
THE COURT: No. I'll overrule that objection.
THE \oJITNESS: I don't know.
Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) \'lhen you were collecting the physical
evidence in this particular case, were you able to
determine that any of those questions could not have
been answered by the physical evidence?
MR. KOCHIS: Well, I would object, that assumes a
fact that's not in evidence, that he considered those. If
he didn't consider them, then he would have no way of knowing
when he collected whether or not they could be answered.
THE COURT: I believe the question was in examining
the crime scene did you ever exclude any of those in effect.
And that calls for a statement of fact, either he did or
didn't. If h~ never considered it, then he obviously didn't
exclude it. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Depending on the conclusiveness of
what evidence we had before us, some of those could be
answered.
For instance, the types of weapons used, that was
fairly easily answered by the wounding patterns. Something ...... 0::..
that' has to do with a sequence of time, however, was much
more remote and would be more difficult to answer.
So something such as number three, the sequence in
which the victims were attacked, I would say is not
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3565
MR. KOCHIS: Objection, that would call for
speculation.
THE COURT: No. I'll overrule that objection.
THE \oJITNESS: I don't know.
Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) \'lhen you were collecting the physical
evidence in this particular case, were you able to
determine that any of those questions could not have
been answered by the physical evidence?
MR. KOCHIS: Well, I would object, that assumes a
fact that's not in evidence, that he considered those. If
he didn't consider them, then he would have no way of knowing
when he collected whether or not they could be answered.
THE COURT: I believe the question was in examining
the crime scene did you ever exclude any of those in effect.
And that calls for a statement of fact, either he did or
didn't. If h~ never considered it, then he obviously didn't
exclude it. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Depending on the conclusiveness of
what evidence we had before us, some of those could be
answered.
For instance, the types of weapons used, that was
fairly easily answered by the wounding patterns. Something ...... 0::..
that' has to do with a sequence of time, however, was much
more remote and would be more difficult to answer.
So something such as number three, the sequence in
which the victims were attacked, I would say is not
.." U , , " U , , ,:I ,-~
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2
3
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7
8
9
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/~,
3566
answerable on physical evidence alone from what we had at the
crime scene. And such things as whether victims moved from
room to room, that depends on time also.
If they were bleeding, yes, it would have been
possible to show that they moved from room to room. If they
weren't bleeding, then that would be made much more difficult,
if not impossible.
Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Well, we're focusing in on the Ryen
crime scene. The victims were bleeding, right?
A. At some point, yes.
Q. So there was evidence which would have at least
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
suggested a partial answer to all the questions except
number three; is that correct?
I'm saying ther,e may have been evidence to assist in
determining some of that.
And you didn't exclude it when you were analyzing the •
cri~e scene yourself? In other words, you didn't say
to yourself, oh, there's no evidence here from which
we could get a clue as to the identity of the assailant
or no, there's no evidence from which we could determine
the nature of any victim resistance?
I did not exclude that possibility, no.
And with the exception of number three, you considered,
did you not, each of those possibilities as you were
analyzing the crime scene; the possibility of finding
evidence which would help answer all of those six
" .. ~ .. ~ ..
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2
3
4
5
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7
8
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12
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14
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3566
answerable on physical evidence alone from what we had at the
crime scene. And such things as whether victims moved from
room to room, that depends on time also.
If they were bleeding, yes, it would have been
possible to show that they moved from room to room. If they
weren't bleeding, then that would be made much more difficult,
if not impossible.
Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Well, we're focusing in on the Ryen
crime scene. The victims were bleeding, right?
A. At some point, yes.
Q. So there was evidence which would have at least
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
suggested a partial answer to all the questions except
number three; is that correct?
I'm saying ther,e may have been evidence to assist in
determining some of that.
And you didn't exclude it when you were analyzing the •
cri~e scene yourself? In other words, you didn't say
to yourself, oh, there's no evidence here from which
we could get a clue as to the identity of the assailant
or no, there's no evidence from which we could determine
the nature of any victim resistance?
I did not exclude that possibility, no.
And with the exception of number three, you considered,
did you not, each of those possibilities as you were
analyzing the crime scene; the possibility of finding
evidence which would help answer all of those six
" .. ~ .. ~ ..
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3567
1 questions?
2 A. I wouldn't say I was specifically thinking about each
3 of these areas when collecting evidence, but the idea
4 of collecting evidence may have helped to answer those
5 questions.
You were attempting, were you not -- well, using physical
7 evidence to answer questions, those particular questions,
8 in the field of criminalistics, that process is
9 referred to as crime scene reconstruction; is that
10 correct?
11 11.. Yes. I don't know that I've ever seen it spelled out
12 in those specific terms, but it certainly seems reasonable
13 .:Q. Within the concept of crime scene reconstruction, the
14 answer to those seven questions is what is included; is
15 that correct?
16 ~ To varying degrees, yes.
17 11 And you were attempting, were you not -- were you
18 attempting to collect evidence so that a crime scene
19 reconstruction would have been possible? .
20 11.. I'm sorry, but that's too vague for me to answer. I
21 don't know what you mean by crime reconstruction. There
22 are many possibilities involved.
23 ~ We just defined crime scene reconstruction as answering,
24 for example, those questions. Okay? Within that
25 ' defini tion.
26 A I don't believe I was collecting evidence consciously
n u , , " U
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3567
1 questions?
2 A. I wouldn't say I was specifically thinking about each
3 of these areas when collecting evidence, but the idea
4 of collecting evidence may have helped to answer those
5 questions.
You were attempting, were you not -- well, using physical
7 evidence to answer questions, those particular questions,
8 in the field of criminalistics, that process is
9 referred to as crime scene reconstruction; is that
10 correct?
11 11.. Yes. I don't know that I've ever seen it spelled out
12 in those specific terms, but it certainly seems reasonable
13 .:Q. Within the concept of crime scene reconstruction, the
14 answer to those seven questions is what is included; is
15 that correct?
16 ~ To varying degrees, yes.
17 11 And you were attempting, were you not -- were you
18 attempting to collect evidence so that a crime scene
19 reconstruction would have been possible? .
20 11.. I'm sorry, but that's too vague for me to answer. I
21 don't know what you mean by crime reconstruction. There
22 are many possibilities involved.
23 ~ We just defined crime scene reconstruction as answering,
24 for example, those questions. Okay? Within that
25 ' defini tion.
26 A I don't believe I was collecting evidence consciously
n u , , " U
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3568
with that in mind to answer each and everyone of those
seven ideas that you've postulated there. That is more
reconstruction that I would consider possible given the
scene.
~ We struck out number three, let's -- you're not considerinJ
that. So we're talking about questions one and two,
four through seven.
Were you collecting evidence to attempt to do a
crime scene reconstruction, to wit, answer those six
questions?
k I was not collecting evidence for that very purpose,
for that very purpose alone, no.
~ You may have had other purposes, but were you collecting
for that purpose?
THE COURT: You see, you don't answer precisely his
question. When you qualify your answer, you're answering
some other question. Try and just anSwer strictly the
question he asks, and if you can, answer it to a point.
THE WITNESS: According to his question, no, I did
not collect it for the purpose of reconstruction, if by
his definition he means this type of reconstruction.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) How do you use the term? What do you
use the term crime scene reconstruction to mean?
THE COURT: Oh, Counsel.
Is there another definition that you would prefer?
THE WITNESS: All I'm really saying is that the
~
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3
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12 ,~,
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23
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3568
with that in mind to answer each and everyone of those
seven ideas that you've postulated there. That is more
reconstruction that I would consider possible given the
scene.
~ We struck out number three, let's -- you're not considerin~
that. So we're talking about questions one and two,
four through seven.
Were you collecting evidence to attempt to do a
crime scene reconstruction, to wit, answer those six
questions?
k I was not collecting evidence for that very purpose,
for that very purpose alone, no.
~ You may have had other purposes, but were you collecting
for that purpose?
THE COURT: You see, you don't answer precisely his
question. When you qualify your answer, you're answering
some other question. Try and just anSwer strictly the
question he asks, and if you can, answer it to a point.
THE WITNESS: According to his question, no, I did
not collect it for the purpose of reconstruction, if by
his definition he means this type of reconstruction.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS:) How do you use the term? What do you
use the term crime scene reconstruction to mean?
THE COURT: Oh, Counsel.
Is there another definition that you would prefer?
THE WITNESS: All I'm really saying is that the
~
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3569
1 degree
2 THE COURT: You're not answering my question.
3 You're not saying there's another definition. is that
4 correct?
5
6 0-
7 A.
8 0-
9 A.
10
11
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26
THE WITNESS: There is more than one definition, yes.
(BY MR. NEGUS:) What definition do you use?
I would have to think about that.
Please do.
By my definition of a reconstruction, I would say those
points which can be used by investigators to help find
the cause of an action in a case, something that is
going to help them solve a material aspect of a case.
For instance, who a suspect is.
Therefore, if a reconstruction in my terminology
would lead to evidence that would link a suspect to a
scene, yes, that is reconstruction.
For instance, looking for blood from a suspect at
a scene, looking for possible areas where blood from a
suspect might be found, things of that nature is the
type of reconstruction I felt I was doing on that day.
(No omissions.)
\.
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e
3569
1 degree
2 THE COURT: You're not answering my question.
3 You're not saying there's another definition. is that
4 correct?
5 THE WITNESS: There is more than one definition, yes.
6 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) What definition do you use?
7 A. I would have to think about that.
8 Q. Please do.
9 A. By my definition of a reconstruction, I would say those
10 points which can be used by investigators to help find
11 the cause of an action in a case, something that is
12 going to help them solve a material aspect of a case.
13 For instance, who a suspect is.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Therefore, if a reconstruction in my terminology
would lead to evidence that would link a suspect to a
scene, yes, that is reconstruction.
For instance, looking for blood from a suspect at
a scene, looking for possible areas where blood from a
suspect might be found, things of that nature is the
type of reconstruction I felt I was doing on that day.
(No omissions.)
\.
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e
3570
THE COURT: You are obviously having trouble finding
9-1 2 something, Mr. Negus.
3 MR. NEGUS: That's true. My outline has got three
4 volumes now. I now need an outline of an outline.
5 THE COURT: Can't you make a note and look it up
6 during the recess and come back to it?
7 HR. NEGUS: I thought I had it but I don't.
8 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) When you testified at the preliminary
9 hearing, do you recall being asked to define what crime
10 scene reconstruction, what type of crime scene
11 reconstruction that you were collecting evidence for?
12 MR. KOCHIS: May I have the volume and page?
13 MR. NEGUS: Volume 19, page 120.
14 THE \HTNESS: I don't recall the explicit question
15 or my answer. I remember discussing crime scene
16 reconstruction at the preliminary hearing.
17 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Do you remember saying that one of the
18 things that you included in your definition of crime
19 scene reconstruction that you were trying to collect
20 evidence for was whether the victims moved from room
21 to room?
22 A I don't recall if I said that or not.
23 Q Was that one of the purposes that you were doing it?
24 A If there was, for some reason, a material aspect to
25 help solve one of the aspects of the crime, yes.
26 Q Did you say that you were trying to collect evidence to
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8
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3570
THE COURT: You are obviously having trouble finding
something, Mr. Negus.
MR. NEGUS: That's true. My outline has got three
volumes now. I now need an outline of an outline.
THE COURT: Can't you make a note and look it up
during the recess and come back to it?
HR. NEGUS: I thought I had it but I don't.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) When you testified at the preliminary
hearing, do you recall being asked to define what crime
scene reconstruction, what type of crime scene
reconstruction that you were collecting evidence for?
MR. KOCHIS: May I have the volume and page?
MR. NEGUS: Volume 19, page 120.
THE \HTNESS: I don't recall the explicit question
or my answer. I remember discussing crime scene
reconstruction at the preliminary hearing.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Do you remember saying that one of the
things that you included in your definition of crime
scene reconstruction that you were trying to collect
evidence for was whether the victims moved from room
to room?
A I don't recall if I said that or not.
Q Was that one of the purposes that you were doing it?
A If there was, for some reason, a material aspect to
help solve one of the aspects of the crime, yes.
Q Did you say that you were trying to collect evidence to
." U I ,
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9-2
f~
(
3571
1 determine where the victims may have been injured?
2 A Yes, I believe I said that.
3 MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, again I need a page.
4 MR. NEGUS: Same page.
5 MR. KOCHIS: Then I need a volume other than 19 and
6 a page other than --
7 z..1R. NEGUS: 112.
8 o (BY MR. NEGUS) And did you also say that one of the
9 purposes you were collecting evidence was to determine
10 where the victims may have been?
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A
o
A
o
A
o
Yes, I believe I said something to that effect.
And then you also indicated that those three things that
you just mentioned were just examples and there were
other things as well; is that correct?
Are we speaking of this particular case, or in general
again?
This particular case. h~at you were trying to do when
you were collecting evidence, you yourself, on June 5th.
I really don't recall at this time exactly what all I
said.
If I could read from page 112, lines 5 to 11.
"0 t"lhat type of crime scene
reconstruction did you think your
collection was adequate for?
"A A limited one.
"0 What does that mean?
n u , , ,-, U , , C o , ,
9-2
f~
(
3571
1 determine where the victims may have been injured?
2 A Yes, I believe I said that.
3 MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, again I need a page.
4 MR. NEGUS: Same page.
5 MR. KOCHIS: Then I need a volume other than 19 and
6 a page other than --
7 z..1R. NEGUS: 112.
8 o (BY MR. NEGUS) And did you also say that one of the
9 purposes you were collecting evidence was to determine
10 where the victims may have been?
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
A
o
A
o
A
o
Yes, I believe I said something to that effect.
And then you also indicated that those three things that
you just mentioned were just examples and there were
other things as well; is that correct?
Are we speaking of this particular case, or in general
again?
This particular case. h~at you were trying to do when
you were collecting evidence, you yourself, on June 5th.
I really don't recall at this time exactly what all I
said.
If I could read from page 112, lines 5 to 11.
"0 t"lhat type of crime scene
reconstruction did you think your
collection was adequate for?
"A A limited one.
"0 What does that mean?
n u , , ,-, U , , C o , ,
t 1
9-3 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
/~ 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
" .... ~
3572
"A Determining areas where victims
may have been, where they may have been
injured, if they moved from room to
room, et cetera."
Do you think that your collection of evidence on
June the 5th was adequate to answer questions I to 2
and 4 to 7 on the diagram?
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I have to object because
that assumes facts that aren't in evidence.
THE COURT: I think he indicated previously that
all except number 3.
MR. KOCHIS: In some cases, not in all cases. To
determine whether or not an assailant is there and whether
or not you can determine that from collecting evidence, you
have to speculate and assume the assailant deposited
something there. He can't speculate. The answer calls
for speculation.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE NITNESS: I don't think you would be able to
answer those questions with the evidence that I collected
on that date, all of those questions.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Which questions do you think you could
answer?
A Number 2, to a limited extent. Number 4, although that
was really determined by the pathologist. That's his
specialty.
" U , , " U , , ,a :J '-
t 1
9-3 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
/~ 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
" .... ~
3572
"A Determining areas where victims
may have been, where they may have been
injured, if they moved from room to
room, et cetera."
Do you think that your collection of evidence on
June the 5th was adequate to answer questions I to 2
and 4 to 7 on the diagram?
MR. KOCHIS: Your Honor, I have to object because
that assumes facts that aren't in evidence.
THE COURT: I think he indicated previously that
all except number 3.
MR. KOCHIS: In some cases, not in all cases. To
determine whether or not an assailant is there and whether
or not you can determine that from collecting evidence, you
have to speculate and assume the assailant deposited
something there. He can't speculate. The answer calls
for speculation.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE NITNESS: I don't think you would be able to
answer those questions with the evidence that I collected
on that date, all of those questions.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Which questions do you think you could
answer?
A Number 2, to a limited extent. Number 4, although that
was really determined by the pathologist. That's his
specialty.
" U , , " U , , ,a :J '-
(
9-4 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
,~, 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3573
Number 5 to a limited extent. Number 6. And
number 7 to a limited extent.
Q How is number 2 limited?
A Basically, the method used was the collection of blood
from the various walls, from the splatter patterns around
the room.
Q How was it limited?
A It's limited in that there is a sequential order which
can't really be postulated at. If the person was not
bleeding from a particular attack, that method would
not work. And the fact that there had been so much
action in there, blood could have been transferred
some distance, so that would make the interpretation
a little bit more difficult to interpret.
Q How is number 5 limited?
A The only way that I would have known on that day
particularly was by blood samples. If there was no
blood in adjacent rooms or something, someone very
conceivably could have been there, but I would not
have detected it.
Q How would number 7 have been limited?
A The victims could have had a hand struggle with the
assailant, which would be a little bit hard to show
except by wounding patterns on the body. and that
would have to be postulated at by a pathologist and
a search for possible weapons that the victims may
I 1"',.....,..--,.-. I __ ... ~ ..... ...:
n u , , " U , , ~ o :J ~
(
9-4 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
,~, 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3573
Number 5 to a limited extent. Number 6. And
number 7 to a limited extent.
Q How is number 2 limited?
A Basically, the method used was the collection of blood
from the various walls, from the splatter patterns around
the room.
Q How was it limited?
A It's limited in that there is a sequential order which
can't really be postulated at. If the person was not
bleeding from a particular attack, that method would
not work. And the fact that there had been so much
action in there, blood could have been transferred
some distance, so that would make the interpretation
a little bit more difficult to interpret.
Q How is number 5 limited?
A The only way that I would have known on that day
particularly was by blood samples. If there was no
blood in adjacent rooms or something, someone very
conceivably could have been there, but I would not
have detected it.
Q How would number 7 have been limited?
A The victims could have had a hand struggle with the
assailant, which would be a little bit hard to show
except by wounding patterns on the body. and that
would have to be postulated at by a pathologist and
a search for possible weapons that the victims may
n u , , " U , , ~ o :J ~
1
9-5 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3574
have used to protect themselves were not found, so
that's a limited conclusion.
Q tvhen you were collecting the blood, did you note any
blood on the sliding glass doors leading to the outside?
A Yes.
Q And did that include some on the sliding glass door
that's closest to the exercise bicycle there in H-I33?
A Yes.
Q Did you collect any of that?
A No.
Q Other than the master bedroom and the master bathroom
and the hall, did you collect evidence from any other
part of the house?
A What locations did you give me again?
Q The master bedroom, the master bathroom and the hallway
where Jessica was found.
A Yes.
Q Where?
A The driveway.
Q In the house.
A On that particular day, the only thing other than the
rope in the driveway was the single hair that was found
on the sliding screen door to the bedroom which was
actually outside the house.
Q So the answer was no?
A Everything else was inside the house, yes, and in those
" U , "' 1-'
U , , C o U ,
1
9-5 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3574
have used to protect themselves were not found, so
that's a limited conclusion.
Q tvhen you were collecting the blood, did you note any
blood on the sliding glass doors leading to the outside?
A Yes.
Q And did that include some on the sliding glass door
that's closest to the exercise bicycle there in H-I33?
A Yes.
Q Did you collect any of that?
A No.
Q Other than the master bedroom and the master bathroom
and the hall, did you collect evidence from any other
part of the house?
A What locations did you give me again?
Q The master bedroom, the master bathroom and the hallway
where Jessica was found.
A Yes.
Q Where?
A The driveway.
Q In the house.
A On that particular day, the only thing other than the
rope in the driveway was the single hair that was found
on the sliding screen door to the bedroom which was
actually outside the house.
Q So the answer was no?
A Everything else was inside the house, yes, and in those
" U , "' 1-'
U , , C o U ,
9-6
3575
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
locations, the bedroom or the bathroom or the adjacent
hallway. -THE COURT: You may feel, Mr. Stockwell, that you
are happy to stay here for weeks and days, but I'm not
tolerant of that position.
Would you just answer the doggone question, please? -When it calls for a yes or no, say it.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Did Mr. Arthur consult with you on the
9 5th about whether or not you had completed working in
10 the living room area?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q On the 5th, did you make any determination yourself as
13 to whether or not there was anything of evidentiary
14
15 A
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20
21
22 A
23 Q
24
25
26 A
value in the living room?
Yes.
t-ihen was tlia t?
I don't recall the exact time.
Do you recall seeing at some point in time a group of
people from the Bureau of Administration and other
high-ranking people in the Sheriff's Department in
the living room?
Yes.
Do you remember whether you did go in there and look
at the living room and made a determination before you
saw them in there?
I had been in the living room. Whether I made that
1
rl U
I , I-' U
I , .--a ,-J
9-6
3575
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
locations, the bedroom or the bathroom or the adjacent
hallway. --THE COURT: You may feel, Mr. Stockwell, that you
are happy to stay here for weeks and days, but I'm not
tolerant of that position.
Would you just answer the doggone question, please? -When it calls for a yes or no, say it.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Did Mr. Arthur consult with you on the
9 5th about whether or not you had completed working in
10 the living room area?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q On the 5th, did you make any determination yourself as
13 to whether or not there was anything of evidentiary
14
15 A
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20
21
22 A
23 Q
24
25
26 A
value in the living room?
Yes.
t-ihen was tlia t?
I don't recall the exact time.
Do you recall seeing at some point in time a group of
people from the Bureau of Administration and other
high-ranking people in the Sheriff's Department in
the living room?
Yes.
Do you remember whether you did go in there and look
at the living room and made a determination before you
saw them in there?
I had been in the living room. Whether I made that
J
rl U
I , I-' U
I , .--a ,-J
1
9-7 2 Q
3
4 A
5
6 Q
7
8 A
9
10
11 Q
12 /----.
13 A
14 Q
15
16 A
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~.
3576
decision at that time, I don't recall.
How many samples of blood did you remove from the
hallway?
Two samples from the walls of the hallway and there was
one from beneath Jessica, a known blood sample.
How did you determine to pick the two samples that you
did from the hall?
The two were apart from each other by a sizeable
distance. There was nobody in the immediate vicinity.
to those blood samples, so I collected them.
Showing you H-178, does that appear to be the sample
that you collected at A-41?
Yes.
And you can tell from that photograph which sample you
actually collected; is that correct?
I can see the sample, yes.
(No omissions.)
n u ~ ,
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,a .a
1
9-7 2 Q
3
4 A
5
6 Q
7
8 A
9
10
11 Q
12 /----.
13 A
14 Q
15
16 A
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~.
3576
decision at that time, I don't recall.
How many samples of blood did you remove from the
hallway?
Two samples from the walls of the hallway and there was
one from beneath Jessica, a known blood sample.
How did you determine to pick the two samples that you
did from the hall?
The two were apart from each other by a sizeable
distance. There was nobody in the immediate vicinity.
to those blood samples, so I collected them.
Showing you H-178, does that appear to be the sample
that you collected at A-41?
Yes.
And you can tell from that photograph which sample you
actually collected; is that correct?
I can see the sample, yes.
(No omissions.)
n u ~ ,
" U ~ ,
,a .a
10-1
1 0-
2
3 A.
4 0-
S
6
7
8
9 A-
10 0-
11
12 A-~,
13 0-
14
15 A-
16 0-
17 A-
18
19 Q.
20
21
22
23 A-
24 0-
25 A-
26
3577
The reason you could tell is it's the only one that's
in the area, right?
That I can see, yes.
Showing you A-42, does that appear to be the area that
you collected the sample -- excuse me. Take it back.
Showing you Photogra~~ H-177, does that appear to
you to be the photograph of the area from which you
collected the blood sample A-42?
Yes.
Can you see the particular drops of blood that you
collected on that photograph?
I don't recall which spo~s of blood I actually collected.
Did you take a sample of ~he carpeting which you didn't
think you had any blood C~ it from that hall?
Yes.
Why?
In case we had to do a t~ace analysis for fibers. The
hallway carpeting is made up of fibers.
In your department is it recommended that when you take
blood samples that you also take samples from areas near
where the blood is but w~ich doesn't appear to have
any blood on it?
In certain circumstances, yes.
What are the circumstances?
If the criminalist feels that for some reason there's
going to be contaminatio~ from something.
n u I ,
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10-1
1 0-
2
3 A.
4 0-
S
6
7
8
9 A-
10 0-
11
12 A-~,
13 0-
14
15 A-
16 0-
17 A-
18
19 Q.
20
21
22
23 A-
24 0-
25 A-
26
3577
The reason you could tell is it's the only one that's
in the area, right?
That I can see, yes.
Showing you A-42, does that appear to be the area that
you collected the sample -- excuse me. Take it back.
Showing you Photogra~~ H-177, does that appear to
you to be the photograph of the area from which you
collected the blood sample A-42?
Yes.
Can you see the particular drops of blood that you
collected on that photograph?
I don't recall which spo~s of blood I actually collected.
Did you take a sample of ~he carpeting which you didn't
think you had any blood C~ it from that hall?
Yes.
Why?
In case we had to do a t~ace analysis for fibers. The
hallway carpeting is made up of fibers.
In your department is it recommended that when you take
blood samples that you also take samples from areas near
where the blood is but w~ich doesn't appear to have
any blood on it?
In certain circumstances, yes.
What are the circumstances?
If the criminalist feels that for some reason there's
going to be contaminatio~ from something.
n u I ,
I-' U
I , .-o , ,
1 0-
2
3 A-
4
5 0-
6 A-
7 0-
s
9
10 A-
II 0-
12 ~,
13
14
15
16 A-
17 {l
18
19 A.
20
21 0-
22 A.
23 Q.
24 A.
25 0-
26
r-',
3578
Did you take any control samples in this particular
case?
General control samples for the carpeting in the hallway
and the carpeting in the bedroom.
Any others?
No.
In the Exhibit H-195, there's no exception made, is
there, for some situations -- that is, that's the
thing from the academy. Do you still have that up there?
Yes. What's the question?
On Page -- let me withdraw that question for a moment
and I'll come back to it.
\ihen you were examining and collecting the evidence
in the hallway, how much time did you spend looking for
blood in the hall?
I don't recall how much time I spent.
I mean, was it a shorter period of time or hours?
I mean, how much time?
I don't think it was an overly long period; 15, 20
minutes at most.
Did you look on the carpet area?
I did look at the carpeting.
Were you looking for blood?
Yes, visible blood.
How thorough a search did you do of the carpet when
you were looking for the visible blood?
" U j ,
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j , .-e .~ o
1 0-
2
3 A-
4
5 0-
6 A-
7 0-
s
9
10 A-
II 0-
12 ~,
13
14
15
16 A-
17 {l
18
19 A.
20
21 0-
22 A.
23 Q.
24 A.
25 0-
26
r-',
3578
Did you take any control samples in this particular
case?
General control samples for the carpeting in the hallway
and the carpeting in the bedroom.
Any others?
No.
In the Exhibit H-195, there's no exception made, is
there, for some situations -- that is, that's the
thing from the academy. Do you still have that up there?
Yes. What's the question?
On Page -- let me withdraw that question for a moment
and I'll come back to it.
\ihen you were examining and collecting the evidence
in the hallway, how much time did you spend looking for
blood in the hall?
I don't recall how much time I spent.
I mean, was it a shorter period of time or hours?
I mean, how much time?
I don't think it was an overly long period; 15, 20
minutes at most.
Did you look on the carpet area?
I did look at the carpeting.
Were you looking for blood?
Yes, visible blood.
How thorough a search did you do of the carpet when
you were looking for the visible blood?
" U j ,
Ii U
j , .-e .~ o
1 A.
2
3
4 0-
5 A.
6 0-
7 A.
8 0-
9
10 A.
11 0-
/-----~ 12
13 A.
14 0-
15
16 A.
17
18 0-
19
20
21 A.
22 0-
23 A.
24
25 0-
26 A.
~
3579
I got down close to the caroeting, but I wasn't always
on my hands and knees for the entire length of the
carpeting either.
Did the drop of blood A-41 strike you as odd?
Odd in what way?
Odd that it was sort of isolated by itself?
Well, that's one of the reasons that it was collected.
Did you search the carpet around A-4l with extra care
to look for other blood in the area of that isolated one?
In the immediate area, yes.
Did you also search the walls in the immediate area of
A-4l looking for other drops of blood?
I scanned them, yes.
Did you search carefully to see whether there was
another isolated drop of blood in that particular area?
8I::;.~ o.
j
I looked at the walls to see if ·there,was blood in the •
irr~ediate area of A-41, yes. I did not see any.
Sho~ing you H-176, appears to be another photograph of
the sa~e general area as A-4l. There's a drop of blood
that's circled. Did you see that drop?
I may have.
Why didn't you collect it?
It may not be relevant at all. I can't tell if that's
blood or not. If it's not blood, it's not worth collectin •
Well, do you recall determining that that was not blood?
If ~hen I saw it it certainly didn't look like blood.
! Ir:::-"::~-~'
n u , , 1-' '-, , , ,-a .-:, ~
1 A.
2
3
4 0-
5 A.
6 0-
7 A.
8 0-
9
10 A.
11 0-
/-----~ 12
13 A.
14 0-
15
16 A.
17
18 0-
19
20
21 A.
22 0-
23 A.
24
25 0-
26 A.
~
3579
I got down close to the caroeting, but I wasn't always
on my hands and knees for the entire length of the
carpeting either.
Did the drop of blood A-41 strike you as odd?
Odd in what way?
Odd that it was sort of isolated by itself?
Well, that's one of the reasons that it was collected.
Did you search the carpet around A-4l with extra care
to look for other blood in the area of that isolated one?
In the immediate area, yes.
Did you also search the walls in the immediate area of
A-4l looking for other drops of blood?
I scanned them, yes.
Did you search carefully to see whether there was
another isolated drop of blood in that particular area?
8I::;.~ o.
j
I looked at the walls to see if ·there,was blood in the •
irr~ediate area of A-41, yes. I did not see any.
Sho~ing you H-176, appears to be another photograph of
the sa~e general area as A-4l. There's a drop of blood
that's circled. Did you see that drop?
I may have.
Why didn't you collect it?
It may not be relevant at all. I can't tell if that's
blood or not. If it's not blood, it's not worth collectin •
Well, do you recall determining that that was not blood?
If ~hen I saw it it certainly didn't look like blood.
n u , , 1-' '-, , , ,-a .-:, ~
Q.
2 A.
3 0-
4
5
6 A.
7 0-
8 A.
9
10 0-
11 A.
12 0-
13
14 A.
15 0-
16 A.
17 0-
18 A.
19 0-
20 A.
21 0-
22
23 A.
24
25
26
3580
Well, did you go back and collect it 01. June 30th?
Not that particular spot, no.
Do you have a particular memory at that time as to
whether in fact you saw that spot in Photograph H-176
or not?
I really don't recall it.
So you can't say whether it was blood or not?
I looked in the general area for blood and I saw nothing
else that looked like blood.
You may just have missed that; is that correct?
That's a possibility.
Were you present when Mr. Duffy was taking h1s pictures
of various blood spots in the hall?
I was in the vicinity. I don't know if I was with him.
That Photograph H-l76, did you see it taken?
I don't believe I saw him take this, no.
Was the drop A-41 pointed out to you by somebody?
Yes.
Who?
I really don't recall at this point.
Is that why you took it, because it was pointed out to
you?
The person who pointed it out drew my attention to it.
I collected it because it was a blood spot that was not
consistent with blood anywhere else in the hallway. It
was off and by itself.
" U
"
~ , U
j , , , " U
Q.
2 A.
3 0-
4
5
6 A.
7 0-
8 A.
9
10 0-
11 A.
12 0-
13
14 A.
15 0-
16 A.
17 0-
18 A.
19 0-
20 A.
21 0-
22
23 A.
24
25
26
3580
Well, did you go back and collect it 01. June 30th?
Not that particular spot, no.
Do you have a particular memory at that time as to
whether in fact you saw that spot in Photograph H-176
or not?
I really don't recall it.
So you can't say whether it was blood or not?
I looked in the general area for blood and I saw nothing
else that looked like blood.
You may just have missed that; is that correct?
That's a possibility.
Were you present when Mr. Duffy was taking h1s pictures
of various blood spots in the hall?
I was in the vicinity. I don't know if I was with him.
That Photograph H-l76, did you see it taken?
I don't believe I saw him take this, no.
Was the drop A-41 pointed out to you by somebody?
Yes.
Who?
I really don't recall at this point.
Is that why you took it, because it was pointed out to
you?
The person who pointed it out drew my attention to it.
I collected it because it was a blood spot that was not
consistent with blood anywhere else in the hallway. It
was off and by itself.
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3581
1 ~ Did you look at the door at the end of the hall?
2 A. I saw it, yes.
3 ~ Did you look behind it?
4 A. I don't recall looking behind it on that day.
5 ~ Showing you H-175, a door with some blood smears on
6 it. Did you see those blood smears on June 5th?
7 A. I don't believe I saw those on June the 5th.
8 ~ On June the 30th, you came back to that house; is that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 ~ And on that day you and Mr. Ogino collected those blood
12 samples; is that correct?
13 A. A sample of them, yes.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~ Just a sample? You didn't take the whole thing?
A. I don't recall how much of it I took.
~ Was there enough blood there that you thought that you
could just take a little bit of it?
A. I tried as best I could to scrape as much blood as I
could off that door. That's not to say that I got all
of it.
~ You did that by scraping?
A. As I recall, yes, that's a scraped sample.
~ Other than just missing it, there's no reason why you
didn't take it on June 5th; is that correct?
A. That's right.
~ Mr. Duffy was there with you on June the 5th, right?
. ~/--"'-
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3 0-
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9
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14 0-
15 A-
16 0-
17
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19
20
21 0-
22 A-
23 0-
24
25 A-
26 0-
~
3581
Did you look at the door at the end of the hall?
I saw it, yes.
Did you look behind it?
I don't recall looking behind it on that day.
Showing you H-175, a door with some blood smears on
it. Did you see those blood smears on June 5th?
I don't believe I saw those on June the 5th.
On June the 30th, you came back to that house; is that
correct?
Yes.
And on that day you and Mr. Ogino collected those blood
samples; is that correct?
A sample of them, yes.
Just a sample? You didn't take the whole thing?
I don't recall how much of it I took.
Was there enough blood there that you thought that you
could just take a little bit of it?
I tried as best I could to scrape as much blood as I
could off that door. That's not to say that I got all
of it.
You did that by scraping?
As I recall, yes, that's a scraped sample.
Other than just missing it, there's no reason why you
didn't take it on June 5th; is that correct?
That's right.
Mr. Duffy was there with you on June the 5th, right?
. ~/--"'-
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3582
1 A. Yes.
2 ~ And did you ever go into the kitchen?
3 A. I believe so.
4 ~ Did you see a refrigerator in there?
5 A. Yes.
6 ~ Showing you Photographs H-l83 and H-l84, did you ever
7 see those stains that are on the side of the refrigerator
8 there?
9 A. I don't believe I looked inside the refrigerator.
10 ~ Do you recall Mr. Duffy telling you that there were
11 stains inside the refrigerator?
12 A. No, I don't recall him telling me that.
13 Q. Did you see any blood on the walls of the bathroom,
14 master bathroom?
15 A. I don't recall on June 5th seeing any blood on the
16 walls in there.
17 ~ Specifically did you ever see any blood on a light
18 switch in the master bathroom?
19 A. No, I don't recall that.
20 ~ Showing you H-222, does that appear to be a wall in
21 the master bathroom?
22 A. Yes.
23 ~ There's some drips of some substance or another on the
24 wall shown on the wall there. Do you recall seeing those
25 when you were searching the master bathroom?
26 A. No, I don't recall seeing those.
" U
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3582
1 A. Yes.
2 ~ And did you ever go into the kitchen?
3 A. I believe so.
4 ~ Did you see a refrigerator in there?
5 A. Yes.
6 ~ Showing you Photographs H-l83 and H-l84, did you ever
7 see those stains that are on the side of the refrigerator
8 there?
9 A. I don't believe I looked inside the refrigerator.
10 ~ Do you recall Mr. Duffy telling you that there were
11 stains inside the refrigerator?
12 A. No, I don't recall him telling me that.
13 Q. Did you see any blood on the walls of the bathroom,
14 master bathroom?
15 A. I don't recall on June 5th seeing any blood on the
16 walls in there.
17 ~ Specifically did you ever see any blood on a light
18 switch in the master bathroom?
19 A. No, I don't recall that.
20 ~ Showing you H-222, does that appear to be a wall in
21 the master bathroom?
22 A. Yes.
23 ~ There's some drips of some substance or another on the
24 wall shown on the wall there. Do you recall seeing those
25 when you were searching the master bathroom?
26 A. No, I don't recall seeing those.
" U
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3583
1 0. In the master bathroom, did you look at the sink, the
2 north sink?
3 THE COURT: Sink in the bathroom?
4 0. (BY MR. NEGUS:) In the master bathroom, did you look
5 at the north sink in that bathroom?
6 A- I suppose I did. I don't recall specifically looking at
7 it.
8 0. Showing you Photograph H-l66, does that appear to you
9 to be the north sink in the master bathroom?
10 A. Yes.
11 0. And directing your attention to an area of staining
12 on the bowl there that's circled in orange, did you see
,~ 13 that?
14 A- I don't recall seeing that specifically.
15 0. There was a second bathroom over by the kids' bedrooms:
16 is that correct?
17 A- There was another bathroom. I don't recall quite where
18 it was in the house.
19 0. Did you ever examine that other bathroom for the
20 presence of blood?
21 A. I think I walked through it just scanning it.
22 0. Just a quick look?
23 A Yes.
24 0. Do you recall whether there was a sink in the bathroom?
25 A I don't recall.
26 0. You don't recall, then, examining a sink in that bathroom
-.... ~
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3583
1 0. In the master bathroom, did you look at the sink, the
2 north sink?
3 THE COURT: Sink in the bathroom?
4 0. (BY MR. NEGUS:) In the master bathroom, did you look
5 at the north sink in that bathroom?
6 A- I suppose I did. I don't recall specifically looking at
7 it.
8 0. Showing you Photograph H-l66, does that appear to you
9 to be the north sink in the master bathroom?
10 A. Yes.
11 0. And directing your attention to an area of staining
12 on the bowl there that's circled in orange, did you see
,~ 13 that?
14 A- I don't recall seeing that specifically.
15 0. There was a second bathroom over by the kids' bedrooms:
16 is that correct?
17 A- There was another bathroom. I don't recall quite where
18 it was in the house.
19 0. Did you ever examine that other bathroom for the
20 presence of blood?
21 A. I think I walked through it just scanning it.
22 0. Just a quick look?
23 A Yes.
24 0. Do you recall whether there was a sink in the bathroom?
25 A I don't recall.
26 0. You don't recall, then, examining a sink in that bathroom
-.... ~
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3 Q.
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5
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14
15
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17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/-~
3584
to see whether there was any blood in it?
No.
At some point in time on June 5th, did the investigators
and other people inside the Ryen house begin using that
other bathroom as a bathroom?
I don't recall.
Were you ever consulted by Sergeant Arthur as to whether
you'd done any serological any investigations for
blood in that second bathroom any time that evening?
Did he ever ask you if you were done with it?
I don't believe so, not specifically speaking of that
bathroom.
Well, did he ever ask you are you done with the rest
of the house beside the hallway, master bathroom, and
master bedroom?
I don't even recall him asking me that.
(No omissions.)
.. " ..
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2 A.
3 Q.
4
5
6 A.
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8
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10
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12
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14
15
16 A.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/-~
3584
to see whether there was any blood in it?
No.
At some point in time on June 5th, did the investigators
and other people inside the Ryen house begin using that
other bathroom as a bathroom?
I don't recall.
Were you ever consulted by Sergeant Arthur as to whether
you'd done any serological any investigations for
blood in that second bathroom any time that evening?
Did he ever ask you if you were done with it?
I don't believe so, not specifically speaking of that
bathroom.
Well, did he ever ask you are you done with the rest
of the house beside the hallway, master bathroom, and
master bedroom?
I don't even recall him asking me that.
(No omissions.)
.. " ..
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11-1 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
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14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
-----~'-,
3585
Q Showing you Exhibit H-47, which appears to be a
A
Q
A
photograph of a screen with a couple of rips in it.
do you recall seeing that on the day of June the 5th?
Yes, I saw that.
Is your laboratory equipped to do an analysis of rips
in screens such as that to try and determine what
caused them?
I suppose there are analyses in the laboratory that
could·be. performed on it.
Q Microscopic analysis, among others?
A Yes.
Q And performing those analyses, can one -- is your
laboratory able to distinguish a rip caused by a dog's
claw from a rip caused by an ax, for example?
A I don't know.
Q toJho does that in your laboratory?
A Mr. Kellett. I believe Mr. Wallis also does it.
Q Showing you Exhibit, again, H-288, the modified sketch
of the bedroom, there are on there a number of letters
in purple.
Did you put those letters in purple on that diagram
at the preliminary hearing?
A Yes. I believe so.
Q And do they indicate the approximate location within
the room of the exhibit numbers which correspond to
the numbers you put on the diagram?
n u , , n u , , , , 5
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11-1 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
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14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~-,
3585
Q Showing you Exhibit H-47, which appears to be a
A
Q
A
photograph of a screen with a couple of rips in it.
do you recall seeing that on the day of June the 5th?
Yes, I saw that.
Is your laboratory equipped to do an analysis of rips
in screens such as that to try and determine what
caused them?
I suppose there are analyses in the laboratory that
could-be_ performed on it.
Q Microscopic analysis, among others?
A Yes.
Q And performing those analyses, can one -- is your
laboratory able to distinguish a rip caused by a dog's
claw from a rip caused by an ax, for example?
A I don't know.
Q toJho does that in your laboratory?
A Mr. Kellett. I believe Mr. Wallis also does it.
Q Showing you Exhibit, again, H-288, the modified sketch
of the bedroom, there are on there a number of letters
in purple.
Did you put those letters in purple on that diagram
at the preliminary hearing?
A Yes. I believe so.
Q And do they indicate the approximate location within
the room of the exhibit numbers which correspond to
the numbers you put on the diagram?
n u , , n u , , , , 5
( 1
11-2 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3586
A Yes.
Q \-lhen you attended the autopsies for the three Ryens and
Christopher Hughes, did you take any samples of blood
from the surface of their bodies?
A I did in an offhand manner wit~ tape lifts.
Q Did you preserve that blood fo=- serological analysis?
A I did not freeze it, no.
Q If you want to preserve something for serological analysi
in your laboratory, the standa=-d procedure is to freeze
it, right?
A Yes.
Q Were you able to determine that all of the blood on the
bodies of the four vict~5 came from their own bleeding?
A No.
Q When you took your tape lifts, did you take tape lifts
of all of the people, all four victims at the autopsy?
A No.
Q Which ones did you take of?
A From Jessica Ryen, Douglas Ry~~ and Christopher Hughes.
Q Did you take from them all of ~he hair and other trace
evidence that was adhering to the bodies?
A I attempted to, yes.
Q Did you remove any hair from trp- body of -- Strike
that.
Did you take part in a debriefing at the Ryen
residence before you left it on the night of June the
n u , , " U , , , , .a
( 1
11-2 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3586
A Yes.
Q \-lhen you attended the autopsies for the three Ryens and
Christopher Hughes, did you take any samples of blood
from the surface of their bodies?
A I did in an offhand manner wit~ tape lifts.
Q Did you preserve that blood fo=- serological analysis?
A I did not freeze it, no.
Q If you want to preserve something for serological analysi
in your laboratory, the standa=-d procedure is to freeze
it, right?
A Yes.
Q Were you able to determine that all of the blood on the
bodies of the four vict~5 came from their own bleeding?
A No.
Q When you took your tape lifts, did you take tape lifts
of all of the people, all four victims at the autopsy?
A No.
Q Which ones did you take of?
A From Jessica Ryen, Douglas Ry~~ and Christopher Hughes.
Q Did you take from them all of ~he hair and other trace
evidence that was adhering to the bodies?
A I attempted to, yes.
Q Did you remove any hair from trp- body of -- Strike
that.
Did you take part in a debriefing at the Ryen
residence before you left it on the night of June the
n u , , " U , , , , .a
3587
5th?
I recall a discussion before we left. I don't recall
if it was actually a debriefing.
Who participated in the discussion?
I don't recall everyone that was there.
Who do you recall?
There were several investigators. I don't recall which
Anyone besides "several investigators"?
Miss Schechter was there with me.
Was Sergeant Arthur there?
I don't recall if he was present or not.
At that point in time, was there any discussion of what
had been done as far as processing the crime scene?
In a general fashion. I don't think I listed every
item that had been taken.
t,hat did you tell them that you had done?
Generally, the processing of the bedroom as far as
items of bedding, hair samples taken from the carpeting,
blood samples, things like that. General information.
Did you tell them anything that still had to be done?
I told them that further work could be done by other
criminalists who could come out at a later time.
Did you describe what that work would be?
I don't recall saying anything specific.
What, in your opinion, at that point in time, should
" U , , I-' U , , -, , -, ,
3587
5th?
I recall a discussion before we left. I don't recall
if it was actually a debriefing.
Who participated in the discussion?
I don't recall everyone that was there.
Who do you recall?
There were several investigators. I don't recall which
Anyone besides "several investigators"?
Miss Schechter was there with me.
Was Sergeant Arthur there?
I don't recall if he was present or not.
At that point in time, was there any discussion of what
had been done as far as processing the crime scene?
In a general fashion. I don't think I listed every
item that had been taken.
t,hat did you tell them that you had done?
Generally, the processing of the bedroom as far as
items of bedding, hair samples taken from the carpeting,
blood samples, things like that. General information.
Did you tell them anything that still had to be done?
I told them that further work could be done by other
criminalists who could come out at a later time.
Did you describe what that work would be?
I don't recall saying anything specific.
What, in your opinion, at that point in time, should
" U , , I-' U , , -, , -, ,
1 I, \
11-4 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3588
have been done additional to what you had already done?
A I thought it was possible for one of the criminalists
who has more knowledge about blood splattering than I
do to come out and look at the blood splatters in the
bedroom and see if he could derive any more information
from that. Also to look again through the house to see
if I had missed anything.
Q Did you communicate that thought to anybody?
A \.yhen? The night of the so-called debriefing or the
next day?
Q Either one.
A I'm sure I discussed it with my supervisor.
Q That would be Mr. Baird?
A Yes.
Q That would have been the next day?
A Yes. ~
THE COURT: Are we talking about the 5th and 6th?
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Are you talking about June the 6th?
A June the 6th.
Q And was that in the morning before you went to the
autopsy?
A I believe so, yes.
Q Did you tell him that you felt that you had collected
adequate blood samples from the house to do a limited
reconstruction, in your sense of the word?
A I don't believe we discussed the amount of evidence
I
1
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a
1 I, \
11-4 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3588
have been done additional to what you had already done?
A I thought it was possible for one of the criminalists
who has more knowledge about blood splattering than I
do to come out and look at the blood splatters in the
bedroom and see if he could derive any more information
from that. Also to look again through the house to see
if I had missed anything.
Q Did you communicate that thought to anybody?
A \.yhen? The night of the so-called debriefing or the
next day?
Q Either one.
A I'm sure I discussed it with my supervisor.
Q That would be Mr. Baird?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Yes.
That would have been the next day?
Yes.
THE COURT: Are we talking about the 5th and 6th?
(BY MR. NEGUS) Are you talking about June the 6th?
June the 6th.
And was that in the morning before you went to the
autopsy?
I believe so, yes.
Did you tell him that you felt that you had collected
adequate blood samples from the house to do a limited
reconstruction, in your sense of the word?
A I don't believe we discussed the amount of evidence
I
1
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a
1
11-5 2 Q
3
4
5 A
6
7
8 Q
9 A
10 Q
11
~, 12 A
13 Q
14 A
15
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20 A
21
22
23 Q
24
25
26. A
/~
3589
collected and I don't believe we discussed reconstruction
Did you tell him -- You told him what could have been
done. Did you tell him that there was anything else
that should be done?
I don't think I was in a position to tell my supervisor
what had to be done. He is the one who makes the
decisions.
Do you tell him your own opinion?
Yes. Yes, my suggestion.
Did you suggest other than observing of the blood
pattern?
Yes.
\-Jhat was that?
I suggested that we could do a luminol technique of
the house.
Anything else?
I don't recall offhand anything else we discussed.
What information did you suggest that you would get
from the luminol?
A possible exit made by the suspect, if he had
traveled either to the driveway or in a different
direction, things like that.
And did you make any recommendations as to how to
preserve the crime scene so that spraying luminol would
provide useful information?
No.
·n u
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1
11-5 2 Q
3
4
5 A
6
7
8 Q
9 A
10 Q
11
~, 12 A
13 Q
14 A
15
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20 A
21
22
23 Q
24
25
26. A
/~
3589
collected and I don't believe we discussed reconstruction
Did you tell him -- You told him what could have been
done. Did you tell him that there was anything else
that should be done?
I don't think I was in a position to tell my supervisor
what had to be done. He is the one who makes the
decisions.
Do you tell him your own opinion?
Yes. Yes, my suggestion.
Did you suggest other than observing of the blood
pattern?
Yes.
\-Jhat was that?
I suggested that we could do a luminol technique of
the house.
Anything else?
I don't recall offhand anything else we discussed.
What information did you suggest that you would get
from the luminol?
A possible exit made by the suspect, if he had
traveled either to the driveway or in a different
direction, things like that.
And did you make any recommendations as to how to
preserve the crime scene so that spraying luminol would
provide useful information?
No.
·n u
~ , " U
~ , , , ., J
1
11-6 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /--~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3590
Q Having seen the numbers of people coming through the
house and the numbers of people wandering around the
grounds on the 5th, did you believe that it was still
A
Q
possible to get useful information by spraying with
luminol?
Yes.
Why did you think that spraying with luminol was a
preferable procedure to collecting trace evidence before
people had been wandering allover the area?
A I don't think I follow your question. Will you repeat it
Q You decided that it wouldn't be worthwhile, for example,
vacuuming the carpet by segments to pick up trace
evidence when you started to work on the 5th. Why did
you think that luminol several hours later or even
several days later would be more likely to provide
useful information than vacuuming the carpet, for
example, in sements on the 5th?
MR. KOCHIS: I'm going to object. That assumes a
fact not in evidence and it's argumentative. That's
Mr. Negus' position that was inconsistent, not this
witness·.
THE COURT: I'm not sure about the assumption.
State it again, please.
MR. NEGUS: I'll withdraw the question.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Did in fact you return to the house to
spray luminol?
I f.
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. --............... ..
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" u
1
11-6 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /--~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
,~
3590
Q Having seen the numbers of people coming through the
house and the numbers of people wandering around the
grounds on the 5th, did you believe that it was still
A
Q
possible to get useful information by spraying with
luminol?
Yes.
Why did you think that spraying with luminol was a
preferable procedure to collecting trace evidence before
people had been wandering allover the area?
A I don't think I follow your question. Will you repeat it
Q You decided that it wouldn't be worthwhile, for example,
vacuuming the carpet by segments to pick up trace
evidence when you started to work on the 5th. Why did
you think that luminol several hours later or even
several days later would be more likely to provide
useful information than vacuuming the carpet, for
example, in sements on the 5th?
MR. KOCHIS: I'm going to object. That assumes a
fact not in evidence and it's argumentative. That's
Mr. Negus' position that was inconsistent, not this
witness·.
THE COURT: I'm not sure about the assumption.
State it again, please.
MR. NEGUS: I'll withdraw the question.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Did in fact you return to the house to
spray luminol?
I f.
L' -. ..... "
. --............... ..
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11-7 2
3
4
5
6
7
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10
11
12 ,~.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
3591
A Yes, we did.
Q When was that?
A I think about a week later.
Q \'las that after the furniture had been removed from the
house?
A Yes.
Q And after the carpeting had been removed?
A Yes, from the bedroom, as I recall,. and adjacent hallway
and the bathroom. I don't recall that everything was
removed from the house.
Q Did you take any notes -- Nell, did you also participate
in spraying the residence at 2991 English Road with
luminol?
A Yes.
Q Was the Ryen house done at the same time as the vacant
house?
A No.
Q \ojas it done on different days?
A Yes.
(No omissions.)
,., lJ
j ,lJ
j ,o
11-7 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ,~.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/~
3591
A Yes, we did.
Q When was that?
A I think about a week later.
Q \'las that after the furniture had been removed from the
house?
A Yes.
Q And after the carpeting had been removed?
A Yes, from the bedroom, as I recall,. and adjacent hallway
and the bathroom. I don't recall that everything was
removed from the house.
Q Did you take any notes -- Nell, did you also participate
in spraying the residence at 2991 English Road with
luminol?
A Yes.
Q Was the Ryen house done at the same time as the vacant
house?
A No.
Q \ojas it done on different days?
A Yes.
(No omissions.)
,., lJ
j ,lJ
j ,o
f"'"
12-1
( 1 0-
2 A.
3 Q.
4 A.
5 0-
6 A.
7 0-
8 A.
9
10
11
12 /-----'"
13
14 0-
15 A.
16
17
18
19 Q.
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24
25
26 A.
3592
Do you have any notes as to what date it was?
I have notes as to the date that we did the Ryen home.
That's what I'm concerned about.
Yes.
l'lhat date was that?
June the 10th.
What effect does luminol have on visible blood?
It can have the effect of diluting the blood, because
llli~inol is sprayed as a wet reagent on the blood samples.
So you dilute the blood. There's not as much blood there.
That may detract from the results that way.
The luminol reagent itself may have an effect
on enz}~atic typings.
Does it make it impossible to do it accurately?
I wouldn't say impossible. I think it depends on the
amount of luminol reagent sprayed on the sample, how
much trace you had to start with originally, and other
factors. I really couldn't say without knowing more.
For traces of blood that are not visible by the human
eye, l~~inol could make those visible; is that correct?
Yes.
And if the trace is not visible, then you're not going
to lose anything by spraying it with luminol; is that
correct? You're not going to lose the ability to type
something you couldn't see to begin with?
That's right. If you couldn't see it to begin with,
n u
"
• , U
• , a o J L
f"'"
12-1
( 1 0-
2 A.
3 Q.
4 A.
5 0-
6 A.
7 0-
8 A.
9
10
11
12 /-----'"
13
14 0-
15 A.
16
17
18
19 Q.
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24
25
26 A.
3592
Do you have any notes as to what date it was?
I have notes as to the date that we did the Ryen home.
That's what I'm concerned about.
Yes.
l'lhat date was that?
June the 10th.
What effect does luminol have on visible blood?
It can have the effect of diluting the blood, because
llli~inol is sprayed as a wet reagent on the blood samples.
So you dilute the blood. There's not as much blood there.
That may detract from the results that way.
The luminol reagent itself may have an effect
on enz}~atic typings.
Does it make it impossible to do it accurately?
I wouldn't say impossible. I think it depends on the
amount of luminol reagent sprayed on the sample, how
much trace you had to start with originally, and other
factors. I really couldn't say without knowing more.
For traces of blood that are not visible by the human
eye, l~~inol could make those visible; is that correct?
Yes.
And if the trace is not visible, then you're not going
to lose anything by spraying it with luminol; is that
correct? You're not going to lose the ability to type
something you couldn't see to begin with?
That's right. If you couldn't see it to begin with,
n u
"
• , U
• , a o J L
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /~'~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3593
you'd never get a serological examination from it.
~ But conversely, is it true that if you can see it to
begin with, there's no need to spray it?
~ I guess there's some subjectivity to it in that some
blood can be seen if you get close enough to it or use
a magnifying glass, something like that. But luminol
may help you find it.
Let's just take blood that, you know, just with normal
=-.-.."
I
careful examination with your naked eye, not a magnifying
glass, you look and you see a blood spot or a blood
smear. In that situation, there's nothing useful done
by spraying with luminol and there can be some harm;
correct?
~ Yes.
~ Were you present on the 10th when all the luminol was
sprayed?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: On your next trip, could you perhaps
bring me the exhibits that have already been introduced.
No rush.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS: ) Showing you Exhibit J, does that appear
to be a diagram of the Ryen house with the areas, letters
and numbers put on there by yourself at the Preliminary
Hearing?
~ Yes.
~ And do the letters in purp:e that are listed A through J,
'~"':':."
" U
"
, , U , , o o :I :J
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /~'~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3593
you'd never get a serological examination from it.
~ But conversely, is it true that if you can see it to
begin with, there's no need to spray it?
~ I guess there's some subjectivity to it in that some
blood can be seen if you get close enough to it or use
a magnifying glass, something like that. But luminol
may help you find it.
Let's just take blood that, you know, just with normal
=-.-.."
I
careful examination with your naked eye, not a magnifying
glass, you look and you see a blood spot or a blood
smear. In that situation, there's nothing useful done
by spraying with luminol and there can be some harm;
correct?
~ Yes.
~ Were you present on the 10th when all the luminol was
sprayed?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: On your next trip, could you perhaps
bring me the exhibits that have already been introduced.
No rush.
~ (BY MR. NEGUS: ) Showing you Exhibit J, does that appear
to be a diagram of the Ryen house with the areas, letters
and numbers put on there by yourself at the Preliminary
Hearing?
~ Yes.
~ And do the letters in purp:e that are listed A through J,
'~"':':."
" U
"
, , U , , o o :I :J
1
2
3 A-
4 0-
5
6 A-
7 0-
8
9 A-
10
11 0-
12 A-
~" 13 Q.
14 A-
15 0-
16
17
18
19
20 A-
21 0-
22 A-
23 0-
24 A-
25 0-26 A-
/---,
3594
do those correspond to the places in the Ryen house
that you saw a luminol reaction?
Yes.
Did you spray Exhibit H-166, the area depicted in
H-166, with luminol?
Yes.
And where it's circled in orange, did you see a luminol
reaction?
I don't recall if that specific area gave a luminol
reaction.
Did you collect that stain before you sprayed it?
No.
Why not?
I don't know.
On June the 22nd, did you spray the carpet from the
master bathroom and master bedroom that was being
stored in the I.D. loft with luminol?
If you want to look at Exhibit TT, that might give
you a clue.
On what date did you say?
June 22nd.
Yes.
And what happened when you sprayed it?
Got lots of reaction from the luminol.
Were you able to observe any patterns?
More so than what I could see with the naked eye, no.
'r, u , , I-' U , , '~I o U ,
1
2
3 A-
4 0-
5
6 A-
7 0-
8
9 A-
10
11 0-
12 A-
~" 13 Q.
14 A-
15 0-
16
17
18
19
20 A-
21 0-
22 A-
23 0-
24 A-
25 0-26 A-
/---,
3594
do those correspond to the places in the Ryen house
that you saw a luminol reaction?
Yes.
Did you spray Exhibit H-166, the area depicted in
H-166, with luminol?
Yes.
And where it's circled in orange, did you see a luminol
reaction?
I don't recall if that specific area gave a luminol
reaction.
Did you collect that stain before you sprayed it?
No.
Why not?
I don't know.
On June the 22nd, did you spray the carpet from the
master bathroom and master bedroom that was being
stored in the I.D. loft with luminol?
If you want to look at Exhibit TT, that might give
you a clue.
On what date did you say?
June 22nd.
Yes.
And what happened when you sprayed it?
Got lots of reaction from the luminol.
Were you able to observe any patterns?
More so than what I could see with the naked eye, no.
'r, u , , I-' U , , '~I o U ,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ,~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3595
The whole thing glowed; is that right?
A. Where there was visible blood, yes, it glowed.
Q. tvhy did you sJ?ray the visible blood?
A. It was hard to spray areas where there was not visible
blood and miss the areas where there was visible blood.
Q. What information were you hoping to get from spraying
the carpet with luminal on the 22nd?
A. Anything that might be raised, any blood that we couldn't
see with the human eye, and that might possibly give
us some clues as to what was happening that night.
Q. You didn't think it worth your while to look for shoe
A.
A.
A.
prints, for example, on June 5th when you first started
out, is that correct, on that carpet?
I wouldn't say it wasn't worth my while.
Well, you didn't do it because other things were more
pressing?
I wouldn't even say that I didn't do it. I looked at
the blood spots on the carpeting, those that I could
see with my eyes.
Did you look -- excuse me. Maybe I misunderstood you.
I thought you said yesterday that you did not examine
the carpet for f~ot impressions on the 6th?
I looked at blood spots to see if I could discern any
thing that was entirely consistent with just feet on the
carpeting, and I didn't corne up with anything, such as
just that.
I
j I
I
:, ... ~~ -- ................... &~.
0:" U , , ,-, U , , o o ,-:I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ,~,
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3595
The whole thing glowed; is that right?
A. Where there was visible blood, yes, it glowed.
Q. tvhy did you sJ?ray the visible blood?
A. It was hard to spray areas where there was not visible
blood and miss the areas where there was visible blood.
Q. What information were you hoping to get from spraying
the carpet with luminal on the 22nd?
A. Anything that might be raised, any blood that we couldn't
see with the human eye, and that might possibly give
us some clues as to what was happening that night.
Q. You didn't think it worth your while to look for shoe
A.
A.
A.
prints, for example, on June 5th when you first started
out, is that correct, on that carpet?
I wouldn't say it wasn't worth my while.
Well, you didn't do it because other things were more
pressing?
I wouldn't even say that I didn't do it. I looked at
the blood spots on the carpeting, those that I could
see with my eyes.
Did you look -- excuse me. Maybe I misunderstood you.
I thought you said yesterday that you did not examine
the carpet for f~ot impressions on the 6th?
I looked at blood spots to see if I could discern any
thing that was entirely consistent with just feet on the
carpeting, and I didn't corne up with anything, such as
just that.
I
j I
I
:, ... ~~ -- ................... &~.
0:" U , , ,-, U , , o o ,-:I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
.~ 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
/--------
3596
Q. Well, in fact, you didn't observe any shoe impressions
inside the bedroom on June 5th except for one heel
print on a pair of jeans; is that correct?
A. That's correct. I didn't see anything that I could
conclusively call a footprint other than that.
Q. On the 22nd, did you collect samples from the area that
you were spraying with luminol before you sprayed them,
of the blood?
A. We vacuumed the carpet before we luminoled it, but as
far as collecting various tufts of carpeting or blood
samples, no.
Q. You knew when you sprayed the luminol that you were
A.
Q.
A.
going to either make very difficult, if not impossible,
enzyme typing of all the blood on the carpet, correct?
I wouldn't say that. I knew that luminol can affect
blood typing, but then just the mere. fact that the
carpeting was being stored in an unfrozen state up in a
loft was destroying the enzymes also. So it wasn't as
if I was intentionally destroying the blood.
In your opinion on the 22nd of June, 17 days after the
discovery of the crime, would that have been such a
long period of time that enzyme typing could no longer
have been done?
I would say that some enzymes would already have
dissipated, certain proteins. Some enzymatic activity
might have remained.
n u , , " U , , CI o ,-o
1 Q.
2
3
4 A-
5
6 Q.
7
8
9 A-
10
11
.~ 12 Q.
13
14
15 A-
16
17
18
19
20 Q.
21
22
23
24 A-
25
26
/~
3596
Well, in fact, you didn't observe any shoe impressions
inside the bedroom on June 5th except for one heel
print on a pair of jeans; is that correct?
That's correct. I didn't see anything that I could
conclusively call a footprint other than that.
On the 22nd, did you collect samples from the area that
you were spraying with luminol before you sprayed them,
of the blood?
We vacuumed the carpet before we luminoled it, but as
far as collecting various tufts of carpeting or blood
samples, no.
You knew when you sprayed the luminol that you were
going to either make very difficult, if not impossible,
enzyme typing of all the blood on the carpet, correct?
I wouldn't say that. I knew that luminol can affect
blood typing, but then just the mere. fact that the
carpeting was being stored in an unfrozen state up in a
loft was destroying the enzymes also. So it wasn't as
if I was intentionally destroying the blood.
In your opinion on the 22nd of June, 17 days after the
discovery of the crime, would that have been such a
long period of time that enzyme typing could no longer
have been done?
I would say that some enzymes would already have
dissipated, certain proteins. Some enzymatic activity
might have remained.
n u , , " U , , CI o ,-o
~"
1 Q.
2 A.
Which ones would have gone?
''leI 1 , something like the protein Gc, group specific
3597
3 component. It degrades very quickly. And r'm sure that
4 would not be detectable after that length of time.
5 Q. There's some 11 or 12 different genetic markets that
6 your laboratory does analysis for: is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would the other, oh, 10 or 11 of those have been
9 detectable still on the 22nd?
10 A. Maybe.
11 Q. How long would it have taken to take samples from the
12 different spots in the carpet that you hadn't taken on
13 the 5th?
14 A.
15 Q.
16
17 A.
18 Q.
19
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24
25
26 A.
It depends how many areas we would collect from.
Say you took 10 different areas. How long would that
• have taken?
To document it, possibly several hours.
In your mind was it a sound scientific decision to spray
the carpet with luminol, or were you just doing it because
the investigators wanted it?
I felt that it was appropriate.
What did you think in your -- did you think that there
was a higher probability of getting some sort of useful
information from spraying the carpet with luminol as
opposed to taking samples of the blood for typing?
I think that's a fair assessment.
,-, U , , ,-, U , , o L' , ,
~"
1 Q.
2 A.
Which ones would have gone?
''leI 1 , something like the protein Gc, group specific
3597
3 component. It degrades very quickly. And r'm sure that
4 would not be detectable after that length of time.
5 Q. There's some 11 or 12 different genetic markets that
6 your laboratory does analysis for: is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would the other, oh, 10 or 11 of those have been
9 detectable still on the 22nd?
10 A. Maybe.
11 Q. How long would it have taken to take samples from the
12 different spots in the carpet that you hadn't taken on
13 the 5th?
14 A.
15 Q.
16
17 A.
18 Q.
19
20
21 A.
22 Q.
23
24
25
26 A.
It depends how many areas we would collect from.
Say you took 10 different areas. How long would that
• have taken?
To document it, possibly several hours.
In your mind was it a sound scientific decision to spray
the carpet with luminol, or were you just doing it because
the investigators wanted it?
I felt that it was appropriate.
What did you think in your -- did you think that there
was a higher probability of getting some sort of useful
information from spraying the carpet with luminol as
opposed to taking samples of the blood for typing?
I think that's a fair assessment.
,-, U , , ,-, U , , o L' , ,
1 Q
13-1 2 A
3
4
5 Q
6 A
7
8 Q
9
10 A
11
12 Q ~,
13 Q
14
15
16
17
18 Q
19
20
21 A
22
23
24
25
26 Q
~
a:-:;:--., 3598
And what did you expect to find out?
\-:e were looking for possible clues, blood tha t was not
visible at the time that would be made visible that
might tell us something.
You knew you had lots of blood, right?
There was lots of visible blood, but there were areas
on the carpeting where there was no visible blood.
If there had been any visible blood there, what would
it have told you?
It could have told us lots of things. I can't speculate
everything it might tell us.
Give me an example.
It might outline a figure on the floor or something to
tell us that a body had been moved possibly after, from
the time the body first fell to somewhere else. It
might show us footprints in ~n area that we didn't
realize a struggle had occurred, things like that.
Except for the area under the bed and under the
furniture, didn't you believe that the struggle had
taken place throughout the whole room?
In a large portion of the room, yes.
MR. NEGUS: Should we take our break now?
THE COURT: Take the afternoon recess.
(Whereupon the afternoon recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Go ahead, please.
(BY MR. NEGUS) Exhibit H-289, the letters in orange
. I ,
I , ~ 1
L
n u , , I-' U
I , .-., o CI o
1 Q
13-1 2 A
3
4
5 Q
6 A
7
8 Q
9
10 A
11
12 Q ~,
13 Q
14
15
16
17
18 Q
19
20
21 A
22
23
24
25
26 Q
~
a:-:;:--., 3598
And what did you expect to find out?
\-:e were looking for possible clues, blood tha t was not
visible at the time that would be made visible that
might tell us something.
You knew you had lots of blood, right?
There was lots of visible blood, but there were areas
on the carpeting where there was no visible blood.
If there had been any visible blood there, what would
it have told you?
It could have told us lots of things. I can't speculate
everything it might tell us.
Give me an example.
It might outline a figure on the floor or something to
tell us that a body had been moved possibly after, from
the time the body first fell to somewhere else. It
might show us footprints in ~n area that we didn't
realize a struggle had occurred, things like that.
Except for the area under the bed and under the
furniture, didn't you believe that the struggle had
taken place throughout the whole room?
In a large portion of the room, yes.
MR. NEGUS: Should we take our break now?
THE COURT: Take the afternoon recess.
(Whereupon the afternoon recess was taken.)
THE COURT: Go ahead, please.
(BY MR. NEGUS) Exhibit H-289, the letters in orange
. I ,
I , ~ 1
L
n u , , I-' U
I , .-., o CI o
1
13-2 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
/~ 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3599
were put there by yourself at the preliminary hearing;
is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And they correspond to the numbers in the UU series of
blood that you and Mr. Ogino collected on June the 30th;
is that correct?
A Yes.
Q How many of those had you sprayed with luminol?
A Five.
Q \ ... hat were their numbers?
A -10, 11, 12, 13, 14.
Q 'i\Thy didn't you collect those samples before you sprayed
the luminol?
A I don't know.
THE COURT: What was the date that you sprayed with
luminol?
THE 'iHTNESS: Excuse me, your Honor?
THE COURT: What was the date that you sprayed
luminol on the Ryen residence?
THE 'iHTNESS: June the 10th.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Showing you S~21, is that the hatchet
you saw on the 5th of June?
A I believe so, yes.
Q And asking you to look at some marks on the side of the
hatchet which has plaintiff's Exhibit 19-A tagged on it,
there are some little line-like impressions right to
"n u , , 1-' U , , .-., o CI J
1
13-2 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
/~ 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3599
were put there by yourself at the preliminary hearing;
is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And they correspond to the numbers in the UU series of
blood that you and Mr. Ogino collected on June the 30th;
is that correct?
A Yes.
Q How many of those had you sprayed with luminol?
A Five.
Q \ ... hat were their numbers?
A -10, 11, 12, 13, 14.
Q 'i\Thy didn't you collect those samples before you sprayed
the luminol?
A I don't know.
THE COURT: What was the date that you sprayed with
luminol?
THE 'iHTNESS: Excuse me, your Honor?
THE COURT: What was the date that you sprayed
luminol on the Ryen residence?
THE 'iHTNESS: June the 10th.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Showing you S~21, is that the hatchet
you saw on the 5th of June?
A I believe so, yes.
Q And asking you to look at some marks on the side of the
hatchet which has plaintiff's Exhibit 19-A tagged on it,
there are some little line-like impressions right to
"n u , , 1-' U , , .-., o CI J
1
13-3 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /,--~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3600
the right of that label, correct?
A Yes.
Q Is that where the hairs were?
A I really couldn't say. I was not the one who collected
the hairs from this item.
Q Did you ever see the hairs on it?
A I don't recall seeing them, no.
Q Assuming that that was the spot that the hairs were,
could you have collected those hairs off there without
disturbing any fingerprints on it?
A possibly, yes.
Q One of the ways you can collect blood is through a
thread?
A Yes.
Q That is a piece of cotton thread that you put in
distilled water and it soaks up blood?
A Yes.
Q Could you have taken blood off that hatchet without
disturbing any fingerprints that might be helpful?
A If there were fingerprints in the area, I think that
would be affected by doing it by the thread method.
Q Could you have found areas on there in blood that would
not have been affected?
A I don't think I'm following your question.
Q Was it possible to lift blood off that hatchet using,
taking a thread sample without destroying any
r, u , , 1-' L' , , .-., :I 1-' U
1
13-3 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 /,--~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3600
the right of that label, correct?
A Yes.
Q Is that where the hairs were?
A I really couldn't say. I was not the one who collected
the hairs from this item.
Q Did you ever see the hairs on it?
A I don't recall seeing them, no.
Q Assuming that that was the spot that the hairs were,
could you have collected those hairs off there without
disturbing any fingerprints on it?
A possibly, yes.
Q One of the ways you can collect blood is through a
thread?
A Yes.
Q That is a piece of cotton thread that you put in
distilled water and it soaks up blood?
A Yes.
Q Could you have taken blood off that hatchet without
disturbing any fingerprints that might be helpful?
A If there were fingerprints in the area, I think that
would be affected by doing it by the thread method.
Q Could you have found areas on there in blood that would
not have been affected?
A I don't think I'm following your question.
Q Was it possible to lift blood off that hatchet using,
taking a thread sample without destroying any
I-' L'
I , .-., :I I-' U
" 1
13-4 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ~"
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3601
fingerprints?
A Yes, but I don't believe I '-"Quld do it by the thread
method.
THE COURT: He just asked you about the thread
method. To use the thread method, do you first have to put
water on the thread?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: But it could be done without disturbing
fingerprints: is that right?
THE t""ITNESS: It's possible, but it's more likely
to destroy fingerprints using that method than by just
scraping the blood sample.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Could you remove it by scraping without
destroying the fingerprints?
A Yes.
Q And on June the 5th, you had both thread for taking.
thread samples with you: is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And knives for scraping?
A Yes.
Q t-lhen you returned on June the 30th, was there still
blood on the walls of the master bedroom?
A I really don't recall seeing any blood on the walls.
Most of the items that had been affixed to walls and
things like that had been removed.
Q The east wall was still there, right?
n u I ,
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13-4 2
3
4
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3601
fingerprints?
A Yes, but I don't believe I '-"Quld do it by the thread
method.
THE COURT: He just asked you about the thread
method. To use the thread method, do you first have to put
water on the thread?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: But it could be done without disturbing
fingerprints: is that right?
THE t""ITNESS: It's possible, but it's more likely
to destroy fingerprints using that method than by just
scraping the blood sample.
Q (BY MR. NEGUS) Could you remove it by scraping without
destroying the fingerprints?
A Yes.
Q And on June the 5th, you had both thread for taking.
thread samples with you: is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And knives for scraping?
A Yes.
Q t-lhen you returned on June the 30th, was there still
blood on the walls of the master bedroom?
A I really don't recall seeing any blood on the walls.
Most of the items that had been affixed to walls and
things like that had been removed.
Q The east wall was still there, right?
n u I ,
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I , ,-, :J
I ,
>. 1 A
13-5 2 Q
3
4 A
5
6 Q
7
8 A
9 Q
10 A
11 Q
12 A
13
14
15 Q
16
17 A
18 Q
19 A
20 Q
21
22
23 A
24 Q
25 A
26 Q
3602
Yes.
And was blood still on that or had somebody come and
scraped it off?
I really don't recall looking at that to see if there
was blood still there.
The closet doors on the northeast corner, they were
still in place, right?
Yes.
That ~ould include the closet door that's shown in H-I09?
Yes.
And they still had blood on them, correct?
I don't recall looking for the blood. I didn't look
specifically for the blood. I can't say whether it was
there or not.
You didn't collect those doors when you were there on
June the 30th, right?
That's correct, I did not.
And nobody else in your presence did, either?
That's correct.
And on Exhibit H-289, could you circle in green the
closet doors which were still in the master bedroom on
June the 30th?
These northeast closet doors?
Right.
(Witness complied.)
And was the door from which you took 00-5 and 6, was that
'n u , , n u , , o J
2
>. 1 A
13-5 2 Q
3
4 A
5
6 Q
7
8 A
9 Q
10 A
11 Q
12 A
13
14
15 Q
16
17 A
18 Q
19 A
20 Q
21
22
23 A
24 Q
25 A
26 Q
3602
Yes.
And was blood still on that or had somebody come and
scraped it off?
I really don't recall looking at that to see if there
was blood still there.
The closet doors on the northeast corner, they were
still in place, right?
Yes.
That ~ould include the closet door that's shown in H-I09?
Yes.
And they still had blood on them, correct?
I don't recall looking for the blood. I didn't look
specifically for the blood. I can't say whether it was
there or not.
You didn't collect those doors when you were there on
June the 30th, right?
That's correct, I did not.
And nobody else in your presence did, either?
That's correct.
And on Exhibit H-289, could you circle in green the
closet doors which were still in the master bedroom on
June the 30th?
These northeast closet doors?
Right.
(Witness complied.)
And was the door from which you took 00-5 and 6, was that
'n u , , n u , , o J
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13-6
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3603
still there, too?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you leave it there?
4 A I left the door there. We took the doorknob.
5 Q The closet doors circled in green were the only doors
6 left in the master bedroom except for the sliding glass
7 doors, right?
8 A I don't recall. I didn't make notes as to what was left.
9 Q On June the 7th, you went to a residence at 2991 English
10 Road in the Chino Hills; is that correct?
11 A
12 Q
13 A
14
15 Q
16
17 A
18 Q
19 A
20 Q
21 A
22 Q
23 A
24
Yes.
And what time did you arrive?
In the evening hours sometime. I believe approximately
7:00 p.m.
\-Jhen you got there, how many people were inside the
house?
I don't know.
How long after you arrived did you go in the house?
Veri shortly thereafter.
When you went in, how many people were there?
I don't know. I didn't count them.
Who do you remember seeing?
There were
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. We have established
25 this by so many witnesses now, under 352 I will not allow it.
26 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) When you got inside the house, did you
ii
'n u , , " U , , .-., :; -., :I
13-6
{ ,
3603
still there, too?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you leave it there?
4 A I left the door there. We took the doorknob.
5 Q The closet doors circled in green were the only doors
6 left in the master bedroom except for the sliding glass
7 doors, right?
8 A I don't recall. I didn't make notes as to what was left.
9 Q On June the 7th, you went to a residence at 2991 English
10 Road in the Chino Hills; is that correct?
11 A
12 Q
13 A
14
15 Q
16
17 A
18 Q
19 A
20 Q
21 A
22 Q
23 A
24
Yes.
And what time did you arrive?
In the evening hours sometime. I believe approximately
7:00 p.m.
\-Jhen you got there, how many people were inside the
house?
I don't know.
How long after you arrived did you go in the house?
Veri shortly thereafter.
When you went in, how many people were there?
I don't know. I didn't count them.
Who do you remember seeing?
There were
THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. We have established
25 this by so many witnesses now, under 352 I will not allow it.
26 Q (BY MR. NEGUS) When you got inside the house, did you
'n u , , " U , , .-., :; -., :I
13-7
3604
1 see a counter in the living room?
2 A \oJhat are you describing as the living room?
3 Q Did you enter by a doorway on the south side of the
4 house?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And when you went to that doorway, was there a room
7 that went from the south side up to the north side?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And did it seem to have light blue chairs and a carpet
10 in it?
11 A
12
13 Q
14 A
15
16 Q
17
18 A
19 Q
20 A
21 Q
22 A
23 Q
24 A
25 Q
26 A
I don't recall the color of the chairs but there were
chairs, a couch, those sort of things.
And it had a counter in it?
Yes. The counter separated it from a minor hallway
leading to a bedroom area.
At that point in time that you entered, ~as the counter
covered with fingerprint powder?
I don I t recall.
Did you look in that room for signs of visible blood?
Yes.
Did you see any?
Yes.
lihere?
On porcelain doorknobs to the counter in that room.
Anyplace else?
Not at that time.
_ .. • :j."
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13-7
3604
1 see a counter in the living room?
2 A \oJhat are you describing as the living room?
3 Q Did you enter by a doorway on the south side of the
4 house?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And when you went to that doorway, was there a room
7 that went from the south side up to the north side?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And did it seem to have light blue chairs and a carpet
10 in it?
11 A
12
13 Q
14 A
15
16 Q
17
18 A
19 Q
20 A
21 Q
22 A
23 Q
24 A
25 Q
26 A
I don't recall the color of the chairs but there were
chairs, a couch, those sort of things.
And it had a counter in it?
Yes. The counter separated it from a minor hallway
leading to a bedroom area.
At that point in time that you entered, ~as the counter
covered with fingerprint powder?
I don I t recall.
Did you look in that room for signs of visible blood?
Yes.
Did you see any?
Yes.
lihere?
On porcelain doorknobs to the counter in that room.
Anyplace else?
Not at that time.
_ .. • :j."
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1 Q
13-8 2 A
3
4
5 Q
6
7 A
8 Q
9
10 A
11
12
13
( 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~.I
3605
At any other time did you see any?
Yes. There was blood to the right of the doorway as
you are entering from the south entrance. There was a
very snaIl spot do~~ by the large patio windows.
Did you see that on the day that you were first in the
house?
No.
Did you look at a wall that was to the east of the room
where the counter hit the wall?
I don't remember particularly looking right at it.
There is a wall there.
(NO omissions.)
'r,· u , , 1-' U , , ., :I ,-J
1 Q
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3
4
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6
7 A
8 Q
9
10 A
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13
( 14
15
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17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
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3605
At any other time did you see any?
Yes. There was blood to the right of the doorway as
you are entering from the south entrance. There was a
very snaIl spot do~~ by the large patio windows.
Did you see that on the day that you were first in the
house?
No.
Did you look at a wall that was to the east of the room
where the counter hit the wall?
I don't remember particularly looking right at it.
There is a wall there.
(NO omissions.)
'r,· u , , 1-' U , , ., :I ,-J
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C 1 0-
2 A-
3 0-
4
5 A-
6 0-
7 A-
S 0-
9
10 A-
II 0-
12 A-
13 0-
14
• 15 A-
16 0-
17
18 A-
19 0-
20 A-
21 Q.
22 A-
23 0-
24 A-
25 0-
26 A-
3606
Well, did you ever --
There's a wall there.
While you were in the living room were you searching
for blood?
Yes.
Did you see any on the east wall above the counter?
I don't recall seeing any blood there.
Approximately what time were you searching that area
for blood?
I don't recall what time.
Was it on the night of the 7th?
Yes.
Did you also participate in processing a bedroom on
the eastern end of the house?
Yes.
While you were in that bedroom, did you vacuum the
carpet for trace evidence?
I did not vacuum that carpeting, no.
Did somebody else?
Yes.
Who was that?
Mr. Ogino.
Did you participate in the decision as to doing that?
I don't believe so.
Mr. ogino just did it on his own?
I believe so, yes.
n u , , " U , , o J ,-a
14-1
C 1 0-
2 A-
3 0-
4
5 A-
6 0-
7 A-
S 0-
9
10 A-
II 0-
12 A-
13 0-
14
• 15 A-
16 0-
17
18 A-
19 0-
20 A-
21 Q.
22 A-
23 0-
24 A-
25 0-
26 A-
3606
Well, did you ever --
There's a wall there.
While you were in the living room were you searching
for blood?
Yes.
Did you see any on the east wall above the counter?
I don't recall seeing any blood there.
Approximately what time were you searching that area
for blood?
I don't recall what time.
Was it on the night of the 7th?
Yes.
Did you also participate in processing a bedroom on
the eastern end of the house?
Yes.
While you were in that bedroom, did you vacuum the
carpet for trace evidence?
I did not vacuum that carpeting, no.
Did somebody else?
Yes.
Who was that?
Mr. Ogino.
Did you participate in the decision as to doing that?
I don't believe so.
Mr. ogino just did it on his own?
I believe so, yes.
n u , , " U , , o J ,-a
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2
3
4
5
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7
8
9
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11
~, 12
13
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20
21
22
23
24
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..... -. ~
3607
Q. When Mr. Ogino did it, did he take the room and divide
it into quadrants and separate the stuff that he swept
up in each of the four quadrants in different sacks
as far as labeling is concerned?
A- Yes.
When you and Mr. Ogino went down to the loft to unroll
the carpet, was there any mildew on it?
A- I believe so.
0. Where?
A- In one portion, I don't recall, that was exceptionally
heavily saturated with blood.
Q. Would that have been the spot where Doug Ryen had been
resting when the carpet was in the room?
A- I don't recall making a note as to which position that
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
came from.
Do you know how much area the mildew covered?
No.
\-vhen you and Mr. Ogino got finished spraying the carpet
with luminol, was it damp?
Fro~ the liminol?
Yes.
Not appreciably.
Did you let it dry?
Yes.
HoW long?
Maybe 15 minutes.
~T, fr.
I
n u , , " U , , o ~ , ,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
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13
t' 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26 ,~
..... -. ~
3607
Q. When Mr. Ogino did it, did he take the room and divide
it into quadrants and separate the stuff that he swept
up in each of the four quadrants in different sacks
as far as labeling is concerned?
A- Yes.
When you and Mr. Ogino went down to the loft to unroll
the carpet, was there any mildew on it?
A- I believe so.
0. Where?
A- In one portion, I don't recall, that was exceptionally
heavily saturated with blood.
Q. Would that have been the spot where Doug Ryen had been
resting when the carpet was in the room?
A- I don't recall making a note as to which position that
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
Q.
A-
came from.
Do you know how much area the mildew covered?
No.
\-vhen you and Mr. Ogino got finished spraying the carpet
with luminol, was it damp?
Fro~ the liminol?
Yes.
Not appreciably.
Did you let it dry?
Yes.
HoW long?
Maybe 15 minutes.
~T, fr.
I
n u , , " U , , o ~ , ,
i' 1 0-
2 A-
3 0-
4
5 A-
6
7 0-
8
9 A-
10 0-
11
/'~"" 12
13
14 A-
15 0-
16
17 A-
18 0-
19 A-
20 0-
21 A-
22 0-
23
24 A-
25 0-
26
/~
3608
And then you rolled it up again?
Yes.
At the 2991 residence were there people controlling who
went in and out of the house?
It was a secure area. yes. Exactly who was controlling
it, I don't know.
Did the controls appear to be more stringent then they
were at the Ryen house?
I really wouldn't be able to make a comparison.
Were there considerably fewer people inside the Lease
residence during the time that you were working than.
there were inside the Ryen house during the time that
you were working on June 5th?
Yes, there were fewer people.
During the tirne that you were inside the Lease house.
did you inspect -- how many days were you there.total?
At the Lease house? Two days that I recall.
The 7th and the 8th?
Yes.
Were you there all day the 8th?
A large portion of the day. yes.
During either of those two days, did you look inside a
washer-dryer that was in the kitchen area?
I don't recall if I looked in there or not.
Did you ever see any clothing in the Lease house that
had stains that appeared like there might be blood on
" U ,. I
I-' U , , .-., :I .-., o
i' 1 0-
2 A-
3 0-
4
5 A-
6
7 0-
8
9 A-
10 0-
11
/'~"" 12
13
14 A-
15 0-
16
17 A-
18 0-
19 A-
20 0-
21 A-
22 0-
23
24 A-
25 0-
26
/~
3608
And then you rolled it up again?
Yes.
At the 2991 residence were there people controlling who
went in and out of the house?
It was a secure area. yes. Exactly who was controlling
it, I don't know.
Did the controls appear to be more stringent then they
were at the Ryen house?
I really wouldn't be able to make a comparison.
Were there considerably fewer people inside the Lease
residence during the time that you were working than.
there were inside the Ryen house during the time that
you were working on June 5th?
Yes, there were fewer people.
During the tirne that you were inside the Lease house.
did you inspect -- how many days were you there.total?
At the Lease house? Two days that I recall.
The 7th and the 8th?
Yes.
Were you there all day the 8th?
A large portion of the day. yes.
During either of those two days, did you look inside a
washer-dryer that was in the kitchen area?
I don't recall if I looked in there or not.
Did you ever see any clothing in the Lease house that
had stains that appeared like there might be blood on
" U ,. I
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,~,
1
2 A.
3 0.
4
5
6
7
8 A.
9 0.
10 A.
11 0.
12
13 A.
14 0-
15
16 A.
17 0-
18
19 A.
20 0.
21
22 A.
23
24
25
26
3609
them?
I don't recall having seen any such clothing.
Did you ever go to the bedroom in the southwest corner
of the house, the bedroom that had the made-up bed in it,
in order to test any stains on any pants with ortho
tolidine to see whether or not they were presumptive of
blood?
I didn't do that, no.
Were you present when anybody else did?
No.
Showing you H-266, a photograph of some pants, did you
ever see those pants?
I don't recall having seen them.
In the kitchen area did you ever see a partially opened
can of food -- excuse me, partially eaten can of food?
I don't recall that, no.
Did you seize those knobs on the counter yourself, the
ones that you thought had blood on them?
Yes.
Other than those knobs, did you seize any evidence
outside of that eastern bedroom from the house?
There was a grocery list, a black and red flashlight,
a block of wood, and a slip of paper with writing on it
that I received from Lieutenant Bellomy. And I don't
know where he obtained them.
And also Mr. Ogino collected a few other items in
n u I ,
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I , '-~I :I '-~I :J
1
2 A.
3 0.
4
5
6
7
8 A.
9 0.
10 A.
11 0.
~ 12
13 A.
14 0-
15
16 A.
17 0-
18
19 A.
20
21
22 A.
23
24
25
26
3609
them?
I don't recall having seen any such clothing.
Did you ever go to the bedroom in the southwest corner
of the house, the bedroom that had the made-up bed in it,
in order to test any stains on any pants with ortho
tolidine to see whether or not they were presumptive of
blood?
I didn't do that, no.
Were you present when anybody else did?
No.
Showing you H-266, a photograph of some pants, did you
ever see those pants?
I don't recall having seen them.
In the kitchen area did you ever see a partially opened
can of food -- excuse me, partially eaten can of food?
I don't recall that, no.
Did you seize those knobs on the counter yourself, the
ones that you thought had blood on them?
Yes.
Other than those knobs, did you seize any evidence
outside of that eastern bedroom from the house?
There was a grocery list, a black and red flashlight,
a block of wood, and a slip of paper with writing on it
that I received from Lieutenant Bellomy. And I don't
know where he obtained them.
And also Mr. Ogino collected a few other items in
n u I ,
I-' U
I , '-~I :I '-~I :J
2 Q.
3 A-
4
5 Q.
6 A-
7 0-
8 A-
9 Q.
10
11 A-
12 Q.
13 A-
14
15
16
17 Q.
18
19 A-
20 0-
21 A-
22
23 0-
24 A-
25 Q.
26
" .. .... ~ .~.
.. , .. , 3610
the house.
I'm just asking about you personally.
Yes. Other than that, everything that I collected
was from the northeast bedroom.
\'Jere the knobs the last thing that you collected?
No.
What time did you collect the knobs?
12:50 the morning of the 8th.
While you were processing the vacant house, did you lose
track of one of the items that you had seized?
Yes.
t'1hich was that?
There was a blanket that was taken from the closet area
of the northeas~ bedroom that was not assigned a number.
It was not lost track of. It was brought in with evidence
but it was not assigned a separate item number.
It wasn't listed on the original list of stuff that you
had seized?
That's correct.
And you didn't find that until August the 16th, correct?
We knew we had the blanket. We didn't realize that
we had not itemized it until August.
Had you done any work on the blanket prior to August?
I had not. Mr. Ogino was doing some work on it.
On June the 10th, when you were doing the luminol at the
Ryen pouse, did you photograph any of the reactions?
I ~
, .. lJ
c , .. ~ , .. L
2 Q.
3 A-
4
5 Q.
6 A-
7 0-
8 A-
9 Q.
10
11 A-
12 Q.
13 A-
14
15
16
17 Q.
18
19 A-
20 0-
21 A-
22
23 0-
24 A-
25 Q.
26
" .. .... ~ .~.
.. , .. , 3610
the house.
I'm just asking about you personally.
Yes. Other than that, everything that I collected
was from the northeast bedroom.
\'Jere the knobs the last thing that you collected?
No.
What time did you collect the knobs?
12:50 the morning of the 8th.
While you were processing the vacant house, did you lose
track of one of the items that you had seized?
Yes.
t'1hich was that?
There was a blanket that was taken from the closet area
of the northeas~ bedroom that was not assigned a number.
It was not lost track of. It was brought in with evidence
but it was not assigned a separate item number.
It wasn't listed on the original list of stuff that you
had seized?
That's correct.
And you didn't find that until August the 16th, correct?
We knew we had the blanket. We didn't realize that
we had not itemized it until August.
Had you done any work on the blanket prior to August?
I had not. Mr. Ogino was doing some work on it.
On June the 10th, when you were doing the luminol at the
Ryen pouse, did you photograph any of the reactions?
, .. lJ
c , .. ~ , .. L
•
1 A-
2 Q.
3 A-
4 Q.
5 A-
6
7 Q.
8
9
10 A-
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3611
No.
Did you rnake sketches of any of the reactions?
No.
Were you looking for patterns?
That was one of the possible things we were looking for,
yes.
Basically when you spray luminol on invisible blood and
it glows, that's essentially what luminol tells you,
isn't that true, the patterns?
It may show a pattern, but one which may not be
decipherable or that you could describe as being
attributed to something.
(No omissions.)
L
:-n U
~ , " U
~ " U
~ ,
•
1 A-
2 Q.
3 A-
4 Q.
5 A-
6
7 Q.
8
9
10 A-
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
3611
No.
Did you rnake sketches of any of the reactions?
No.
Were you looking for patterns?
That was one of the possible things we were looking for,
yes.
Basically when you spray luminol on invisible blood and
it glows, that's essentially what luminol tells you,
isn't that true, the patterns?
It may show a pattern, but one which may not be
decipherable or that you could describe as being
attributed to something.
(No omissions.)
L
:-n U
~ , " u ;:J -" U
~ ,
: ~.
15-1
I . I
":" .. 1
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
3612
In your experience, if you see a pattern which you don't
understand, is it easy to remember the pattern?
It depends on the complexity of the pattern.
Is it easier for you to remember patterns that you did
understand than those that you didn't?
Yes.
~vhy didn' t you take sketches of the patterns that you
saw?
It was my feeling as long as Mr. Ogino was there, we
could obtain quality photographs back in the laboratory
of the items that we were collecting.
Had you ever tried to do that before?
We have tried to take photographs of luminol before. I
don't recall having luminoled something such as
carpeting and then bringing it back to the laboratory,
reluminoling it and photographing it there.
That was something you tried new for this particular one?
Yes.
You are a member of the California Association of
Criminalists, correct?
Yes.
And you are also a member of the American Academy of
Forensic Sciences?
No, I'm not.
Do you receive the Journal of the American Academy of
Forensic Science?
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
3612
In your experience, if you see a pattern which you don't
understand, is it easy to remember the pattern?
It depends on the complexity of the pattern.
Is it easier for you to remember patterns that you did
understand than those that you didn't?
Yes.
~vhy didn' t you take sketches of the patterns that you
saw?
It was my feeling as long as Mr. Ogino was there, we
could obtain quality photographs back in the laboratory
of the items that we were collecting.
Had you ever tried to do that before?
We have tried to take photographs of luminol before. I
don't recall having luminoled something such as
carpeting and then bringing it back to the laboratory,
reluminoling it and photographing it there.
That was something you tried new for this particular one?
Yes.
You are a member of the California Association of
Criminalists, correct?
Yes.
And you are also a member of the American Academy of
Forensic Sciences?
No, I'm not.
Do you receive the Journal of the American Academy of
Forensic Science?
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3613
1 A Our laboratory subscribes to that, yes.
2 Q Was your laboratory Had you done luminol very many
3 times before this?
4 A Personally, I had done it several times.
5 Q How many?
6 A Several times. Once or twice.
7 Q Once or twice?
8 A As I recall.
9 Q And had you read, for example, any articles on how to
10 take photographs of luminol reaction?
11 A I don't recall at tha~ time having read any articles on
12 photography of luminol.
13 Q
14 A
15 Q
16
17
18 A
19 Q
20
21 A
22 Q
23
24 A
25
26 Q
Have you since?
Yes.
And that was an article published either in the Journal
of Forensic Scie~ces or the Journal of Forensic Science
Society; is that correct?
I believe it was the Journal of Forensic Science.
And that was published six years ago, something like
that?
That sounds appropriate, yes.
Why didn't you try and look that up before you started
trying to take pictures of luminol?
No real reason behind that. There were others with me
who had experience with luminol.
Who was doing the actual photograph Take it back.
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3613
1 A Our laboratory subscribes to that, yes.
2 Q Was your laboratory Had you done luminol very many
3 times before this?
4 A Personally, I had done it several times.
5 Q How many?
6 A Several times. Once or twice.
7 Q Once or twice?
8 A As I recall.
9 Q And had you read, for example, any articles on how to
10 take photographs of luminol reaction?
11 A I don't recall at tha~ time having read any articles on
12 photography of luminol.
13 Q
14 A
15 Q
16
17
18 A
19 Q
20
21 A
22 Q
23
24 A
25
26 Q
Have you since?
Yes.
And that was an article published either in the Journal
of Forensic Scie~ces or the Journal of Forensic Science
Society; is that correct?
I believe it was the Journal of Forensic Science.
And that was published six years ago, something like
that?
That sounds appropriate, yes.
Why didn't you try and look that up before you started
trying to take pictures of luminol?
No real reason behind that. There were others with me
who had experience with luminol.
Who was doing the actual photograph Take it back.
-.. ". ""~.--:,
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1
15-3 2
3 A
4 Q
5
6 A
7 Q
8 A
9 Q
10 A
11 Q
12 i~
13 A
14 Q
15 A
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20 A
21 Q
22
23 A
24
25 Q
26 A
,,~,
3614
At ~he Ryen house, did you attempt to -- did you
also l~inol the Lease residence?
Yes.
At that point in time, did you attempt to take
photographs?
No.
Did sc~2body else?
No.
\'lere p:-::::-tographs taken in the Lease residence?
There .ere photographs taken, but not of the luminol.
\\'ere yc::. present when the luminol was sprayed in the
hallwa~ that leads into that eastern bedroom?
Yes.
And no photographs were taken?
Not of those impressions, no.
Any i~=essions in the Lease residence?
Not in the Lease residence, no.
Was Mr. Roper from the 1.0. Bureau there when you were
doing the luminol?
He may have been.
Nhy di-::n't you take photographs of the reactions in
the Lease residence?
Maybe I'm mistaken in interpreting what you are saying.
Was I taking photographs or was somebody else?
I thi~< I asked you both.
Maybe I interpreted it wrong. I was interpreting it
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3 A
4 Q
5
6 A
7 Q
8 A
9 Q
10 A
11 Q
12 i~
13 A
14 Q
15 A
16 Q
17 A
18 Q
19
20 A
21 Q
22
23 A
24
25 Q
26 A
,,~,
3614
At ~he Ryen house, did you attempt to -- did you
also l~inol the Lease residence?
Yes.
At that point in time, did you attempt to take
photographs?
No.
Did sc~2body else?
No.
\'lere p:-::::-tographs taken in the Lease residence?
There .ere photographs taken, but not of the luminol.
\\'ere yc::. present when the luminol was sprayed in the
hallwa~ that leads into that eastern bedroom?
Yes.
And no photographs were taken?
Not of those impressions, no.
Any i~=essions in the Lease residence?
Not in the Lease residence, no.
Was Mr. Roper from the 1.0. Bureau there when you were
doing the luminol?
He may have been.
Nhy di-::n't you take photographs of the reactions in
the Lease residence?
Maybe I'm mistaken in interpreting what you are saying.
Was I taking photographs or was somebody else?
I thi~< I asked you both.
Maybe I interpreted it wrong. I was interpreting it
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3 I A
4 Q
5 A
6
7 Q
8
9
10 A
11 Q
12
13 A
14 Q
15
16
17
18 A
19 Q
20
21 A
22 Q
23
24
25 A
26 Q
3615
did I take photographs.
Did somebody else?
It's possible.
Did you see that?
I don't recall right now if anybody was photographing,
somebody other than the Crime Lab, in the Lease house.
How about Mr. Ogino? Let's focus on him.
Did he take photographs of the reaction in the
Lease house?
I don't recall.
Did you ever see any negatives that were completely
overexposed from the Lease house of the luminol reaction?
I don't recall.
Back to the Ryen house.
Did you attempt to take all of the items that you
sprayed with luminol and got a reaction on back to the
laboratory so you could photograph them there?
Not everything, no.
Given your A through J on your diagram there, which
ones did you take back?
A and B were on one item. E and F.
The other items, the other reactions that you got were
on materials that it was not practical to transport
back to the laboratory: is that correct?
That's correct.
Why didn't you try and photograph those reactions at
" U j ,
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1
15-4 2 Q
3 I A
4 Q
5 A
6
7 Q
8
9
10 A
11 Q
12
13 A
14 Q
15
16
17
18 A
19 Q
20
21 A
22 Q
23
24
25 A
26 Q
3615
did I take photographs.
Did somebody else?
It's possible.
Did you see that?
I don't recall right now if anybody was photographing,
somebody other than the Crime Lab, in the Lease house.
How about Mr. Ogino? Let's focus on him.
Did he take photographs of the reaction in the
Lease house?
I don't recall.
Did you ever see any negatives that were completely
overexposed from the Lease house of the luminol reaction?
I don't recall.
Back to the Ryen house.
Did you attempt to take all of the items that you
sprayed with luminol and got a reaction on back to the
laboratory so you could photograph them there?
Not everything, no.
Given your A through J on your diagram there, which
ones did you take back?
A and B were on one item. E and F.
The other items, the other reactions that you got were
on materials that it was not practical to transport
back to the laboratory: is that correct?
That's correct.
Why didn't you try and photograph those reactions at
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3616
1 the scene?
2 A Items C and o were close to the living room where there
3 was no practical way to shut out the light coming in
4 through the windows and that would cause problems with
5 photography.
6 G and H were really nondescript as far as patterns.
7 Q What was the result when you got back to the laboratory
8 and attempted to take them?
9 A The images on the carpeting which we had collected had
10 diffused so that when \.;e reluminoled and tried to take
11 photographs, the images that we had seen that night had
12 diffused into so that the patterns were not distinct
13 any longer.
14 Q You have been the recipient of numerous photographs
15 taken by the I.D. Bureau of the soles of people's shoes
16 that \vere in the Ryen house; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you have also received shoe impressions from a few
19 of them that you don't have photographs of; is that
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Of all those shoes, the patterns that you saw in the
23 Ryen house that night were different and inconsistent
24 with coming from all those shoes; is that correct?
25 A Overall, yes.
26 Q \ihat do you mean by "overall, yes"?
~.,-,
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3616
1 the scene?
2 A Items C and o were close to the living room where there
3 was no practical way to shut out the light coming in
4 through the windows and that would cause problems with
5 photography.
6 G and H were really nondescript as far as patterns.
7 Q What was the result when you got back to the laboratory
8 and attempted to take them?
9 A The images on the carpeting which we had collected had
10 diffused so that when \.;e reluminoled and tried to take
11 photographs, the images that we had seen that night had
12 diffused into so that the patterns were not distinct
13 any longer.
14 Q You have been the recipient of numerous photographs
15 taken by the I.D. Bureau of the soles of people's shoes
16 that \vere in the Ryen house; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you have also received shoe impressions from a few
19 of them that you don't have photographs of; is that
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Of all those shoes, the patterns that you saw in the
23 Ryen house that night were different and inconsistent
24 with coming from all those shoes; is that correct?
25 A Overall, yes.
26 Q \ihat do you mean by "overall, yes"?
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
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14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~,
3617
A There is one set of boots, namely my own, which are
consistent in pattern but not in size, and there are
other shoes which are consistent in size but not in
pattern.
Q In criminalistics, when you compare impressions, in
order for something to be consistent with coming from
something, it has to be consistent both in pattern and
in size?
A Yes.
Q The impressions C and D, they were on a hard surface;
is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did you attempt to take measur~~ents of them?
A I don't recall taking measurements of them.
Q Did you make any sketches of them?
A No.
Q Khy not?
A I felt that they were consistent with what we were
seeing on the carpeting samples. We were going to take
the other carpeting samples back to the laboratory and
photograph them. We assumed that the photographs
would be the same at the laboratory as the pattern
we were seeing at the scene.
Q The properties of fibrous carpets which cause the
diffusion of the image that you saw, were those
properties of fibrous carpets unknown to you before you
a::=-~
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15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~, /
3617
A There is one set of boots, namely my own, which are
Q
consistent in pattern but not in size, and there are
other shoes which are consistent in size but not in
pattern.
In criminalistics, when you compare impressions, in
order for something to be consistent with coming from
something, it has to be consistent both in pattern and
in size?
A Yes.
Q The impressions C and D, they were on a hard surface;
is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did you attempt to take measur~~ents of them?
A I don't recall taking measurements of them.
Q Did you make any sketches of them?
A No.
Q Khy not?
A I felt that they were consistent with what we were
seeing on the carpeting samples. We were going to take
the other carpeting samples back to the laboratory and
photograph them. We assumed that the photographs
would be the same at the laboratory as the pattern
we were seeing at the scene.
Q The properties of fibrous carpets which cause the
diffusion of the image that you saw, were those
properties of fibrous carpets unknown to you before you
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
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13
14
15
16
17
18
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20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3618
attempted to do this?
A I didn't realize that it would happen to the extent
that it did.
Q You realized that there was a possible problem?
A There was a possibility. I really didn't think about it
at the time.
Q Did you attempt to consult with anybody in the field of
criminalistics to find out whether somebody had done
this particular procedure before?
A No.
Q \vhy not?
A I had consulted with very few people in our laboratory
as to the use of luminol, but this was something that
we had never done and just in the field, I hadn't
talked with any criminalists to see if this particular
procedure had ever been done.
Q There are numerous different organizations of
criminalists in the state and country that are glad
to provide advice to people if you ask them, correct?
A Yes.
Q \\1hy didn't you try and consul t them?
A I don't know when I would have had a chance to call them.
I mean, it happened the night we luminoled.
Am I to get their opinions then? Before we went,
we didn't know what we would come across.
Q h~en you went out there to luminol, you knew that you
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
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13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~
3618
attempted to do this?
A I didn't realize that it would happen to the extent
that it did.
Q You realized that there was a possible problem?
A There was a possibility. I really didn't think about it
at the time.
Q Did you attempt to consult with anybody in the field of
criminalistics to find out whether somebody had done
this particular procedure before?
A No.
Q \vhy not?
A I had consulted with very few people in our laboratory
as to the use of luminol, but this was something that
we had never done and just in the field, I hadn't
talked with any criminalists to see if this particular
procedure had ever been done.
Q There are numerous different organizations of
criminalists in the state and country that are glad
to provide advice to people if you ask them, correct?
A Yes.
Q \\1hy didn't you try and consul t them?
A I don't know when I would have had a chance to call them.
I mean, it happened the night we luminoled.
Am I to get their opinions then? Before we went,
we didn't know what we would come across.
Q h~en you went out there to luminol, you knew that you
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15-8 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ,~"
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
: .... ~,
3619
were going to luminol when you went out there, right?
A Yes.
Q What did you do when you went out there to try and
preserve the results that you got?
A We had a camera with us to take shots if we thought
they were appropriate. t-lhen we were at the scene, we
decided that due to the lighting conditions and other
things, that it might be best to take the items back
to the laboratory to attempt to photograph them.
(No omissions.)
•
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15-8 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 ,~"
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
: .... ~,
3619
were going to luminol when you went out there, right?
A Yes.
Q What did you do when you went out there to try and
preserve the results that you got?
A We had a camera with us to take shots if we thought
they were appropriate. t-lhen we were at the scene, we
decided that due to the lighting conditions and other
things, that it might be best to take the items back
to the laboratory to attempt to photograph them.
(No omissions.)
•
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4 Q..
5
6 A.
7 Q..
8
3621
You'd been out there at nighttime on June the 5th,
right?
Yes.
And one of the peculiarities of the Ryen house was it
didn't have any draperies, right?
Yes.
And so that made ambient light from outside -- there was
a lot of ambient light from outside coming into that
9 particular house because of that fact, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Did you perceive the problem you might have before you
12 went out there?
13 A.
14
15
To some extent. We could block off light from small
windows, but I don't -- we didn't have anything really
to block out light from, say, in the living room, the
16 massive glass wall that was there.
17 Q..
18 A.
19 Q.
20 A.
21 Q.
Well, A and B there, they are in the hallway, right?
Yes.
No problem blocking those off?
We could have, that's correct.
Well, did you think this thing through before you went
22 out and did it?
23 A.
24
25
Enough to take the luminol and the photographic equipment
and some means to block out sunlight.
But not enough to think about the effect of trying to
26 respray with luminol the carpeting?
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14-1
2
3 A.
4 Q..
5
6 A.
7 Q..
8
3621
You'd been out there at nighttime on June the 5th,
right?
Yes.
And one of the peculiarities of the Ryen house was it
didn't have any draperies, right?
Yes.
And so that made ambient light from outside -- there was
a lot of ambient light from outside coming into that
9 particular house because of that fact, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q.. Did you perceive the problem you might have before you
12 went out there?
13 A.
14
15
To some extent. We could block off light from small
windows, but I don't -- we didn't have anything really
to block out light from, say, in the living room, the
16 massive glass wall that was there.
17 Q..
18 A.
19 Q.
20 A.
21 Q.
Well, A and B there, they are in the hallway, right?
Yes.
No problem blocking those off?
We could have, that's correct.
Well, did you think this thing through before you went
22 out and did it?
23 A.
24
25
Enough to take the luminol and the photographic equipment
and some means to block out sunlight.
But not enough to think about the effect of trying to
26 respray with luminol the carpeting?
-c j ,.
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14-2
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
r-, 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~' - .. J
3622
~ That's correct. We really didn't go out there with
that in mind.
~ What areas did you spray when you went out there?
& In the Ryen house?
Q. Yes.
~ The floors of the house, the shower areas, the sinks,
the exits, the patio, sidewalks, and the west driveway.
The majority of the inside stuff was carpet?
~ A large portion of it, yes.
Q. Did you spray the second bathroom?
~ I believe so, yes. At least the floor in there.
~ How about the sink?
~ I don't recall if we did the sink or not.
Q. Hm .. about the shower?
~ I don't recall.
Q. When you testified at the Preliminary Hearing, Page 42
of Volume 20, Lines 24 through 2, do you recall saying
that you didn't believe that you sprayed the second
bathroom?
~ I don't recall saying that.
MR. NEGUS: Could I read that particular statement,
Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NEGUS: Question: Did you spray the second
bathroom?
Answer: I dqn't believe so.
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
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14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
~' - .. J
3622
~ That's correct. We really didn't go out there with
that in mind.
~ What areas did you spray when you went out there?
& In the Ryen house?
Q. Yes.
~ The floors of the house, the shower areas, the sinks,
the exits, the patio, sidewalks, and the west driveway.
The majority of the inside stuff was carpet?
~ A large portion of it, yes.
Q. Did you spray the second bathroom?
~ I believe so, yes. At least the floor in there.
~ How about the sink?
~ I don't recall if we did the sink or not.
Q. Hm .. about the shower?
~ I don't recall.
Q. When you testified at the Preliminary Hearing, Page 42
of Volume 20, Lines 24 through 2, do you recall saying
that you didn't believe that you sprayed the second
bathroom?
~ I don't recall saying that.
MR. NEGUS: Could I read that particular statement,
Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NEGUS: Question: Did you spray the second
bathroom?
Answer: I dqn't believe so.
i
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14-3 3623
1 Q~estion: \';hy no~?
2 An.swer: No obvious entrance or exit according to
3 the hallway outside that.
4 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) \ihen you \vent back to the second bath-
5 room, did you consult with -- excuse me.
6 \\hen you went back to spray the Ryen house, did you
7 consult with Mr. Gregonis as to .hether or not he had
8 done any presumptive test for blood when he'd been out
9 there on the 6th?
10 A. No, I don't believe so.
11 Q. Were you aware of a test done by ~lr. Gregonis on the 6th
12 in the second bathroom for blood?
13 A. No, I'~ not aware of that.
14 Q. In t~e Ryen house the A through F were all consistent
15 with being the shape of shoes; correct? .
16 A.. Yes.
17 Q. And A and B were impressions with the toes. Which
18 direction were the toes pointed in that, on A and B?
19 A. Towards the west.
20 Q. Would that be away from or to Jessica?
21 A. That wO·.lld be away from Jessica.
22 Q. The toes would be pointing as if they were going back
23 towards the kitchen; is that right?
24 A. I believe so.
25 Q. And E and F, the toes would be pointing up the stairs as
26 if the person were mounting the stairs? /~~
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14-3 3623
1 Q~estion: \';hy no~?
2 An.swer: No obvious entrance or exit according to
3 the hallway outside that.
4 Q. (BY MR. NEGUS:) \ihen you \vent back to the second bath-
5 room, did you consult with -- excuse me.
6 \\hen you went back to spray the Ryen house, did you
7 consult with Mr. Gregonis as to .hether or not he had
8 done any presumptive test for blood when he'd been out
9 there on the 6th?
10 A. No, I don't believe so.
11 Q. Were you aware of a test done by ~lr. Gregonis on the 6th
12 in the second bathroom for blood?
13 A. No, I'~ not aware of that.
14 Q. In t~e Ryen house the A through F were all consistent
15 with being the shape of shoes; correct? .
16 A.. Yes.
17 Q. And A and B were impressions with the toes. Which
18 direction were the toes pointed in that, on A and B?
19 A. Towards the west.
20 Q. Would that be away from or to Jessica?
21 A. That wO·.lld be away from Jessica.
22 Q. The toes would be pointing as if they were going back
23 towards the kitchen; is that right?
24 A. I believe so.
25 Q. And E and F, the toes would be pointing up the stairs as
26 if the person were mounting the stairs? /~~
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A. Yes.
And C and D. the toes were pointing as if they were
going towards the stairs; is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. ~EGUS: I think that's all for luminol in the
Ryen house.
THE COURT: All right.
You must return again tomorrow.
MR. NEGUS: Not tomorrow.
THE COURT: ~onday. All right. 9:30 on Monday.
(Whereupon the proceedings concluded
at 4:02 p.m.>
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A. Yes.
And C and D. the toes were pointing as if they were
going towards the stairs; is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. ~EGUS: I think that's all for luminol in the
Ryen house.
THE COURT: All right.
You must return again tomorrow.
MR. NEGUS: Not tomorrow.
THE COURT: ~onday. All right. 9:30 on Monday.
(Whereupon the proceedings concluded
at 4:02 p.m.>
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