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Women’sCaucusHistoryTape:RecordedMarch9th,1997atPatDavitt’shouse

Thosepresent:PatDavitt,AnneRoberts,MarcyToms,AndreaLebowitz,EllenWoodsworth,JeanRands

TranscribedbyPatDavittandAnneRobertsin2013.Materialinparenthesesisexplanatoryandwasaddedlater.Materialinbracketsisparentheticalandpartoftheoriginalrecord.

Transcript:

Andrea:Whatwearegoingtodotodayisachronologyandtodefinesomequestionswethinkarepertinentandcansharewithotherpeople.

Ellen:Yeah,tolayoutthequestionssothatthelargenumberofwomeninWomen’sCaucus(WC)canjoininthisdiscussionwe’rehaving.Wecanstartwiththequestion:WhywastheWCformedatthistime,ascomparedtootherkindsofwomen’sthingsthatwerestartedatthistime.I’dliketoseeakindoftreenetworkofwhatwasactuallyonthetreeandthekindofsplitsthatbranchedoutofthatintoneworganizations.

Marcy:TheFeministActionLeague;thatwastheprecursor!Thereasonthatitwascalledthatwasbecauseitneededaname,becauseDodieWepplerandIwerewritingapapertogether.Itwasintheearlyspring–somewhereApril/May,anditcoincidedwithafairlyrambunctiousseriesofstudentactionsoncampusconcernedwithdemocratization–quote,unquote:studentrepresentationonvariousadministrativebodiesatSFU–theSenateandtheBoardofGovernors,plusthiscrisisofwhoactuallycouldgetadmittedtotheuniversitythroughtransfercreditsfromthevariousjuniorcolleges.Thethesisthatsomeofusheld–thatthereweredifficultiesunlessyouhappenedtobeofamiddle-classbackground,gettingintoSFU.

Sothereareanumberofdifferentthingsgoingon.There’sstudentsgettingorganizedatSFU;therearethingshappeningonthecollegecampuses;andthere

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wastheTempletonthingin1967,andthatwaspartofthewholesortoflabour/studentfermentinPSA.

Anne:WhatwastheTempletonthing?

Andrea:WhengraduatestudentsfromthePSADepartment,whichwasPoliticalScience,Sociology,AnthropologyandArcheologywereallonedepartmentchairedbyTomBottomore,who’snowdead.Threegraduatestudents--weusedtocallthem“TheBeatles”becausetheywereallfromEngland,remember?PhilandMartinLoney,andChrisHuxley.Andwhowastheotherguy?Philwho?PhilwastheboyfriendofMargaretSinclair!That’sright!(Laughter!)SomeoneelseisdoingthePSAHistory!

SothesethreeguyswentdowntoTempleton(SecondarySchoolinVancouver),andtheytalkedaboutFreeSpeechatalocalhighschoolandtheyweregoingtogetsuspendedatSimonFraser,andtherewasthatwhole“inlocoparentis”thing,anddoublejeopardyandalltherestofit.So,Idon’tknowifthatwasthefirstevent,butitwasabigcatalystingettingstudent-typepeopleworkedup.

Whenwasthesit-in?

Marcy:Thesit-inwasinthe(SFU)BoardofGovernorsoffice,whichwasaroundthewholeissueofdemocratization,andalongatthesametime,DodieandIwrotethispaperwhichwassupposedtobeafeminist,awomen’sperspective,are-writingoftheCommunistManifesto,andwedecidedthatsincewe’dwrittenthis,andthestuffdidmakesense,andtherewasstuffhappeningatanumberofdifferentlevelsthatweknewabout,inCanadaandelsewhere,thatmaybeweshouldgettogetherandhaveororganizesomekindofwomen’sgroup.Wedidnotgivewhatwe’dcallanythoughtatall(tonamingit).ThereasonitwascalledtheFeminine--orwasittheFeminist?--ActionLeague–Ican’tremember.

Voice:IthinkitwasprobablyFeminine.Marcy:Ithinkyou’reright.

Marcy:IthinktheinfluenceforthatwasthatDodiewasinvolvedintheLSAortheYSA,beingtheYoungSocialistAlliance?

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Jean:IthinkitwascalledjustYS.

Marcy:OK,theYS,whichwasaTrotskyistgroupinCanadaatthattime,whichwaswhytheLeaguestuffcamein.Anyway,sowehadanumberofmeetings...(Voice:whereweretherestofyoucomingfrom?)Onthecampus...(WeretherestcomingfromaTrotskyistbackground?)No,no.No!Iguesswewerejustemergingsocialists.Wewereseventeen,eighteen,nineteenyearsold,andwewerefairlyunformed,Iwouldthink.Ifitwereotherwise,I’dbefairlysurprised.

AndtheninthesummerMaggie(Benston)andBrendaMorrowgotinvolved,byaboutMayofthatyearandatthesametime,weoccupiedtheBoardofGovernors’roomintheoldAdministrationBuildingatSFU,whichwasstillintheLibrary.(Who’swe?)AnumberofpeopleconnectedtotheSDU(StudentsforaDemocraticUniversity)plusthewomenwhowereinvolvedinthisinitialorganization:Mayof1968.That’swhenwehadtheidea,thesamegroupofwomen,whoIcan’treallyremembertheirnames,Dodieandmyselfforsure,wehadthisideaatthesametimeoftryingtoturnthisintoadaycare.Soitwasallkindofgoingonatonce.(MelodyKillianwasthere.AndMaggie.Melodyhadachild...that’swhyyouthoughtofthedaycare!!!!??Laughter)AndthenJeangotinvolvedatthesametime,inthesummertime.

Jean:Idon’tthinkso;IwasinTorontointhesummertime.

Marcy:Whendidyoucomeback?Andsomeonehadtheideaofhavingapsychologist(notbecauseshewasapsychologistbutsheseemedtobeaninterestedwoman)cometooneofourmeetings.

(Whathappenedtotheoccupation?)

Marcy:Oh,itended.Ican’tremember.

Youweredoingthisasthiswomen’sgroup?

Marcy:Itwasveryamorphous;itwasaveryfluidkindofthing.

Jean:Isn’tittrue,thewayIrememberit.Ican’tevenrememberwhenIleftVancouverandmovedtoTorontoandthencameback.Itwaslikesixmonthsthat

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Iwasaway,soalotofthisstuffhappenedduringthattime,buttheimpressionIhadwasthattheoccupationoftheBoardofGovernors’room,anSDUoccupation,somekindofliberationoftheuniversitykindofthing,butthatintheend,itkindofwentonandonandonbecausetheBoardofGovernorssaid:wedon’tcareandwehavetheBCHydroBoardroomdowntown.GordonShrumwasChancelloroftheuniversity.

Marcy:AndJackDiamondhadsomerole.

Jean:AndthewayIrememberitisthatalthoughitwasanSDUaction,itendedupbeingafeministactionarounddaycareandtheuniversity,andthattheoccupationwasresolvedbythemgivingusspaceforadaycare.

Marcy:Itwasattheendofthesummerthatwechangedthenamebecauseitbecamemoreexpresslypolitical.

Pat:Brenda(Morrow)satmedowninmykitchenandsaid:Wehavetodosomethingabouttheconditionofwomen.Ithought,“OhGod,Brenda,givemeabreak!”Sosherattledonatmeforaboutfiveminutes,andIwent:“Oh,you’reright;hmmm.”Iwasveryeasilypersuaded!Mostlybecauseshewasright!IwasastudentbythenatSFU,aPHDstudentinSociology(PSA).SoweorganizedameetinginMaxineGadd’sapartmentinthenextbuildingtousat4thandBurrardwiththepsychologist.IthinkitwasBrendawhodredgedupthispsychologist;Ican’trememberhernameatall.WhatIrememberwasthatMaxinewaslivingasahippypoetandwaitedtables;shedidanything.Shewasjustsortofscrapingbyandoccasionallygoingtoschoolandwhatever.Soshedidn’thavemuchfurnitureandweweremostlysittingonthefloor.Butshehadonechair,andsowehadtogivethevisitingpsychologisttheonechair.SoshesatupinthisratherornateVictorianchairwithcarvedarms,andtherestofusweresprawledalloverthefloor,andwelistenedtothiswomantellusthatgirlsgrewupnaturallytobewomen.Theydeveloplikeflowers!Andwe’reallsittingtheregoing:HolyFuck!Whereisthisbroadcomingfrom?Butwewereverypoliteinthosedays;weletherdribbleonforahalfhourorsoandthenshestopped.Andthen,Ithinkitwasyou,actually(Marcy:Idon’trememberanyofthis!),thisvoicepipedup:“Well,that’sallverywell,butIwanttotalkaboutasocialistanalysisofwomenin

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society!(Ireallydon’trememberthat!).Andfromthispointon,thispoorwomanwastotallyignored(Laughter)!TherewasherandthiswomannamedRosemaryNash;shewasmarriedtoGaryLocke;shewantedtocontinuethisdiscussionaboutgrowinguplikeflowers,buttherestwerereallyintoMarcy’sperceptionhere,thatwhatweneededwasasocialistanalysisinCanada.

(Ellen:Atthispoint,wastheCommunistPartyinVancouver?Answer:Oh,theCommunistPartywashereinVancouver.)

Marcy:Buttheyhadnothingtodowiththis.

Ellen:Didyouusetheexpression:Iwantedasocialistanalysis?

Marcy:Ican’tremember,butitwassomethinglike...

Pat:Socialorsocialist;clearlywewantedapoliticaldiscussion.

Jean:PeoplewereactiveinSDU,right?We’dbeenhavingallthesediscussionsuntilwewereblueintheface,usingtheuniversityasredbaseskindofstuff,andendlessargumentsabouttheletterof(Antonio)Gramscitosomebodyorother,andwhathehadtosayaboutcivilsociety.

Andrea:Andanotherthingthat’simportantaboutthisisthatalthoughtheanalysismayhavebeenfairlynaive,therewasananalysis,andwedidn’tthinkwomenwerenaturallybornasflowers.Andtodayallthisanalysisaboutthe“construction”ofwomen;weweren’tusingthosetermsbutwewerecertainlytryingtofigureouthowwomenare“made”whattheyare;wedidn’tassumethatitwassomeessential“given”,forbetterorworse.AndIthinkoftenpeoplelookingback,theirthesisisthatweweresonaive.Well,wewerenaiveinmanyways,it’squitetrue;butweweren’tsonaivethatwehadnopoliticalanalysis,andweallkindofbelievedthatwomenwere“constructed”bytheirsociety.Otherwise,howthehellcouldweun-constructorchange?

Ellen:Jeanwassayingyouwereallsocialists.

Marcy::Well,weallcalledourselvesthat.EW:Whatwouldyouhaveincludedasyourbasictext?Manyvoices:Marx!

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Pat:VeryfewofushadeverreadMarx,youunderstand,butwehadattendedenoughofthesediscussionstoknowexactlywhathehadprobablysaid...(Butdon’tforgetthecourseswehadtaken;therewasalotoftalking;peoplereadCapital.)Ididn’t.

Anne:ButPSAatthetime,withBottomoreasChair,attractedalltheMarxistfaculty,andtherewasanamountofintellectualmaterialthatwasbeingreadanddiscussionsandallwithinthatcontext.

Jean:Weweretalkingaboutthepositionofwomenincapitalistsociety,andwewerealsotalkingabouttheroleofwomenintherevolution.ThepapersthatIwaslookingatwerecalledthingslike“WhyWomenwillbetheVanguardoftheCanadianRevolution”Voice:Whowrotethatone?Jean:Idid!(Muchlaughter!)

Ellen:SopeopleweretalkingaboutKollontai?;whowerethewomenwhowerethereferencepoints?

Marcy:IcertainlybythattimehadreadAlexandraKollontai;IthinklotsofusknewabitaboutClaraZeitkinandRosaLuxemburg;IstillhavesomereallygoodbiographiesofRosaLuxemburgthatIboughtatthattime.Itwasallhappeningconcurrently,sowewereexaminingabunchofdifferentquestions,learningsomeofthetraditionalsocialisttextsandtryingtofindsomeotheranalysesthatweresocialistbutalsohadwomeninvolved.

Jean:SomeofthethingsIwenttowerealmostleadingdiscussiongroupssomeofthefirstmeetingsthathappenedoffcampus,atBrenda’splace,andtheywereaboutthingslikeJulietMitchellandthingsintheNewLeftReview.

Pat:Afterthatfirstmeeting,justtobackupabit,wehadtwoorthreeothermeetingsoffcampusthatreallywerelikeconsciousness-raisinggroupsandtherewouldbelike,Iwouldgo,Brendawouldgo,Maggie(Benston)wouldgo.Acoreofpeoplefromthatinitialgroup,andotherwomen–thewordwouldgooutandotherswouldcome.Itwasverycleartousthatifwedidn’tgetbetterorganizedforthosemeetings,whattheyreallywerewereconsciousness-raising.Peoplecomplainedabouttheirpartners,theirrelationshipsandwhattodoaboutit,theirjobsorwhatever,andthenwe’dneverseethemagain,andthenextmeeting

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wouldbeanothergroupofpeopledoingthesamething,andwe’ddoour:“Youknow,thisiscapitalistsocietyandtheroleofwomen....da,da,da,da,da,andthey’dgoaway,andthereweretwoorthreemeetingslikethatinthatsummerof’68,andthenwedecidedthatthiswasn’tgettingusanywhere.Itwasobviouslyuseful,wellmarginallyuseful,forthepeoplewhowerecomingin,andgoingawayhavingdecidedmaybeitwasn’ttheirfault--buthowlongcouldyouholdontothatidea--butitwasn’tgoingtochangeanything.Whatwewerereallyinterestedinwassomekindofsocialmovementthatwouldactuallymakesomechanges.

Marcy:Yes,tohavesomespecificprojectstoworkon,too.Andwedidhavesomeconferences.

Women’sconferences??Yes.

Jean:WhathappenedinthatfirstsummerwhenIwasn’there?Wasn’ttheWomen’sCaucusofSDUformed?

Andrea:Yes,becausetheCaucuswasformedatSimonFraserbecauseitwasacaucusofsomething.

Chorus:No.No.N0.

Pat:TherewastheFeminineActionLeague.Itdidn’texistanymore.Whatwehadwasthiscoregroupofwomenwhowantedtodosomething.Attheendofthatsummer,wedecidedweweregoingcallourselves“VancouverWomen’sCaucus”.Itwasn’tinreferencetoSDUoranythingelse,infact,thatCaucusexistedasapoliticalorganization.

Marcy:Itwasn’t,aswewouldunderstandit,perhapsfromamoresophisticatedpointofview,acaucusofanything.

Pat:Ithinkweknewthatthen.Itwasawordthatwouldtotallydefineusasbeingpoliticalratherthanaconsciousness-raisinggroup,whichwasthemajordealatthetime.

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Andrea:AlthoughitcontinuedtoexistatSimonFraserasaclubbecauseremember,weusedtogetmoney.

Pat:Ohabsolutely!Wewerenotabovebeingaclub!

Marcy:Ithinkwegotmoney,ahundredbucksayear.

Anne:Maybepeopleshouldtalkabouttheformationofit;thedominantthinggoingonintheStateswasconsciousness-raisinggroups.That’swhatwewereawareof,theconsciousness-raisingstuffcomingoutoftheStates.NotsomuchinreferencetoEasternCanada,werewe?Therewassomethingthatpeoplewerereactingagainst.

Andrea:No,that’snot...Ithinkwewereahead,actually.Therewereconscious-raising(c-r)groupsintown,largelyveryinformal,privateones.Wecertainlywereaheadofthepeopleintheeast,becauseevenpeopleintheeastwillsaythatwegotittogethertobeanorganizationsooner.Ithinkwealwaysthoughtofourselvesasthevanguard.That’showIrecollectit:thatweweremoreinformed,thatwehadmoreanalysis;weweremorepolitical.

Pat:Andwhatwerespondedto,youwereright,werespondedtowhathappenedwhenwestarteddoingthis.Whenyouhavethreemeetingsinarowandyouhavepeoplebleatonandon,it’susefulintheshortterm,butifthat’swhat’shappening,butthat’snotwhatwewantedtodo.Thisisn’tworking.Nowwe’regoingtohavetolookatsomeotherwayofdoingthis.

Ellen:Ithinktherewereothergroupsintown;therewasawomen’sgroupatUBCwhichIdidn’tjoinbecauseIthoughtitwasverymiddle-class;itwaswithLynnSmithandAnnePetrie(whowaslaterhostofaCBCradioshow)andanumberofotherwomenwhodidstartagroupatUBC.Itwasn’tconnectedtoWomen’sCaucusalthoughIwasthepersonconnectedtoWomen’sCaucus.

Anne:Whenwasthat?Whendidtheyform?(Itwasin’68or’69;Idon’tknow.)Ithinkitwas’69;wecanprobablyfindit–they’veprobablywrittenitdown.IthinktheycameabitafterinresponsetothefermentaroundtheWomen’sCaucus.

Pat:Andwedidsomestufftoo.

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Anne:Buttheyweregoingtoformaseparategroupthatwasabitdifferent,andtheywereverymiddle-classandprofessionalwomenconcernedaboutaspecificrangeofissues.

Marcy:Theywereallstudentsatthatpoint.

Anne:Buttheyknewwheretheyweregoing.

Ellen:Butthecontextwasdifferentbecauseyouallhadbeenpartofthestudentmovementinarebellionthatreallyhadsomepowertoitandreallyhadsomeclearsensethatyouweregoingtogetsomevictories,eventhoughyoudidn’tgetwhatyouwantedin....somethingwasstrengthened.WhathappenedatUBCinthestudentmovement–weoccupiedthefacultyclubandthatwasquitedifferent:therewasthiswomen’sgroupthatwasn’tactiveinthatoccupationatall,oranyoftheanti-Vietnamstuff,ortheRedPowerandBlackPowerstuff.Thatwomen’sgroupwasn’t.Acoupleofuswerebutthenwejoinedwithyou.

Andrea:Ithinkthecontextsareverydifferent,becauseSimonFraserwasonlythreeyearsold.Itwasinallkindsofupheavalinstitutionallybecausethefacultywereprettyrevoltingtoo!(Inmorewaysthanone!)SothatmadeprobablyareallybigdifferencewithUBC.Like,Iwasfaculty;IcametoSimonFraser(Butyouweren’trevolting!).That’sprobablywhythewomen’sgroupswerequitedifferentbecauseoftheircontext.UBCwas,andstillis,averydifferentinstitution.

Anne:Whendecisionsweremade,you’resayingtheendofthesummerof’68,andthat’swhenthedecisionsweremadetoformWomen’sCaucus.

Pat:Wenamedourselvesandessentiallyredefinedwhatitis...well,westartedtoredefine...IrememberwehadameetingatSimonFraser:MaggieandmeandawomannamedOrnette??Orlene,somethinglikethatandacoupleofotherpeople.Andwehadthisdiscussion:wheredoyoustart?Everythingiscircular,intermsofsocializationofthechildren,andsocializationofgirlsinschool,there’stheworkforceandeverythingconspirestomakewomenwhattheyare.Butwheredoyoustart?Andwehadthislongdiscussion,lookingforthekey(Andrea);no,lookingforawayin.Imeanlookingforawayin,becauseyouseethistotally

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circularthing,andwedecidedthat,OK,we’reintheeducationalsystem,sowherewe’regoingtostartiswhereweare.

Marcy:Didn’twedecidetodosomeeducationalaswellastodo...(Andrea:charmschools;youusedtogointoclasses,doyourememberthat?).No,IremembersomeofthethingsinthecafeteriasbutIthinkthatwasaboutayearlater;thiswasrightatthebeginningofthefallof’68.Wasthatwhenwedecidedtodosomeeducational,amoreformalkindofthingwiththeguerillatheatrethings.Also,rememberwhenwepicketedtheEngineer’sClubandwehadanumberofotherkindofthingsthatwerekindof,Getour....

Andrea:No,thatwaslater,in’69,wasn’tit?

Marcy:Andinthefallof’68,therewasthebuild-uptotheoccupation.Cananyoneremember.Wasthatin’68?Yes,itwas,becausethestrikewasin’69,sointhefall(of’68),theremusthavebeensomekindof...

Pat:ButthatwasmoretheStudentsforaDemocraticUniversityandthemajorissuethere--rememberLyleOsmundson(andSueClaus)fromLangara(College)/issueoftransfersfromcommunitycollegestouniversity.

Marcy:ButIthoughttherewassomeeducationalworksdowntownthathappenedthen.(Andrea:thatwasayearlater)Andwealsohadaconference.

Pat:Therewasaconference,thatfall,MarcyCohenwassayingthatwehadatUBC.Thatwas’69.(Generalagreement)It’sthegapinthefallof’68thatwe’rehavingproblemswith,andIdon’thavethenexteditionofthePedestal.

Marcy:ThefirstPedestalcameoutinthefallof’69.I’msurewedidsomethings.

Andrea:Well,whenwastheMcGill(BurnabyPublic)Libraryseries,afreeseries....

Marcy:Ithinkthatwasconnectedtothestrike.

Andrea:Yeah,Idon’trememberexactlyeither.Butgoingbacktoyourpointthatwedecidedoneducationandoneofthefirstthingsthathappened(Who’swe?Itwasquiteanamorphous“we’;wewereWomen’sCaucus).Pursuingtheeducationthing,therewasanon-creditcourse...

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Ellen:Wereyoupeoplemeetingregularly?

Andrea:Yes,butitwasasmallplace;thereweren’tthatmanypeople:wehadcoffee.Itwasn’tlikemeetingattwelve;wewereinandoutofeachother’slivesallthetime.

Jean:Butthereweremeetings;therewereallkindsofformalmeetingssetuptoo.Weren’tthere?Therewereformalmeetingsbythefallof’68whenIarrivedinthemiddleoftheoccupationorjustbeforeit.

Marcy:Andremember,inMarchof’69wehadanInternationalWomen’sDaycelebrationattheLabourTemple(inVancouver)(Voice:thatterriblethingwedid?)

Marcy:Sowespentsometimeorganizingthat.

Andrea:IthinktheMcGillLibrarythingwaslater;IwasjustgoingoffonatangentfromwhatPatwassaying,wasthatonethemethatgotdevelopedwastodosomekindofeducationwork:goingintoclasses;doingpresentationswith“fellow-travelling”faculty,etc.ThentherewastheMcGillnon-credit,thentherewerethefirstcreditcourses:GeographyofGender(quiteabitlater).Thatwholeeducationstreamwentoffthatway.

Pat:Buttherewasalso“WomeninTeaching”thatcameafterthesplitwiththeTrots,in1970.That’swhatyou’resaying,thatdifferentbitsofit(theeducationstream)continuedoffofitindifferentways.

Marcy:Wheredoesthisfitin?AnumberofusincludingPatandMelodyandJeanwrotesomepapers(Idon’tknowifAnnewrotesomething)onvariousaspectsoforganizingwomenandtheywerepresented,butIdon’tthinktheywerepresentedat...(wasn’tthatatthetimewehadanoffice?)No,itwasearlierthanthat;Idon’tthinkitwasin’69.Idon’tthinkitwasforthatjointconferencewherethewomenfromtheUnitedStatescameup.

Pat:No,thatwastheIndochineseWomen’sConference.

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Marcy+others:No,itwasoneatUBC,withthatwoman,LauraX,remember?(ManyscreamsofOHYES!Andlaughter).Shewassoflaky,andwecouldn’tbelieveit!Oh!My!God!AndwethoughtallthosefolksfromSanFranciscowouldbesopoliticallysophisticated(muchlaughter)andtheydidn’tknow...theywerenotwellversedinwhatwethoughtwasimportantinanalysis.

Jean:AndallthesepeoplecamefromSaskatchewanandAlbertaandtheywerehorrified.

Pat:That’sright!That’sright!

Marcy:Ithinkwedidsomethingofawomen’sconferencetypebeforethat.

Longpause:“Really?”

Marcy:Ithinkso..Whyelsewouldwehavewrittenthesepapers?Andyouwrotesomething,Jean,andPat,youdidtoo.Melody,too.

Pat:Irememberthatyou(Marcy)andsomebodywroteapaperwhichwaspresentedtotheSDU.

Jean:That’sthis:(readstitle):AReportBacktotheSimonFraserLeftonWomen’sCaucusSummerOrganizing,September,1969byMarcyCohenandJeanRands

Ellen:Whywereyoureportingbackifyouwereindependent?

Jean:IthoughttheWomen’sCaucusbasicallywasacaucusofthestudentleftinthebeginning.

Marcy:Itwasanditwasn’t.Itformallywasn’tandinformallycouldsayitwas.

Anne:Getthatdown:yourwholesenseofit.

Jean:Firstofall,Iwasn’tthereatthebeginning;Iprobablyhavethatpartwrong.WhenIcame,itwasinthemiddleoftheOccupationandallthatstuff...actually,duringthatperiodoftime,Women’sCaucusbecametotallyinactive.Itwasstilloneofthosethingsthatfelloffthebottomofpeople’sprioritieslist.Wedidn’thavetimetogospeakinginclassesandstuff;weweretryingtokeepthisbloody

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Occupationgoing!Anyway,soatthatpoint,itprettymuchwasacaucusoftheSimonFraserLeft.But,accordingtothis(JeanandMarcy’sarticle),itwasFebruaryof’69thatwebegantomoveoffcampus.

Marcy:Yes,andthatwouldfitrightinwiththeLabourTempleandtheInternationalWomen’sDaything.

Jean:BySeptember‘69,accordingtothis(?),wewerehavingregularmonthlymembershipmeetings,wehadtheofficeintheLabourTempleandamembershiplistofover200.Andanewspaper:thatwouldbethePedestal,whichhadjustbarelystarted.

Pat:ThatwasthefirstissueofthePedestal,thatcameout...

Jean:InlateAugust,earlySeptember

Anne:That’sawonderfuldocument!

Jean:Yes,asfarasfactsgo;therestisallpolemics!(Muchlaughter)OneofthethingsthatalwaysstrikesmewhenIgobacktothisstuff,ishowharditwas,howhorriblethemenwere,unbelievable!!!Doyouremember...whendidthoseGermanSDS’erscomeover?FrederickWolfe...

Marcy:Itwasduringthestrike.

Jean:Thatwas’69already,(Marcy:theypicketedwithus)andeventhatlate,IrememberwehadameetingwithHeidithatwaswomen-only,andthemenweretryingtoknockthedoordown!!!Itwasjusttakenforgrantedthatwomenorganizingseparatelyatallwereperfectgroundsforanykindofviolenceonthepartofmen.

Marcy:That’sright,becausewhenwehadourfirstmeeting,withthegroupDodieandIstarted,wehadtolockthedoorsinthemeetingroomintherotundabecausetheyweretryingtopeekaroundthewindowsandthroughthedoors;itwasquitejuvenile.

Jean:IwasinTorontointhefallof’68,andthereitwas,evenifanything,worse.TherewasagroupcalledTorontoWomen’sLiberation,whichsimplyconsistedof

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LaurelLimpusandPauletteGiles;Ithinkthatwasaboutit.Buttheypublishedacoupleofpamphlets,andeverybodywasgoingaroundsaying“whattheyneedisagoodfuck!”

Anne:DuringthatOccupation,whenyousaidwomen’sthingsareatthebottomoftheagenda,partofthethingwasthatwomenweredoingthatold“gestener/gettingtheleafletsout/makingthecoffee/cleaningup/gettingthefood:thatwasallpartofwhatwomenwerereactingto.Andtherewerelotsoftensionsaroundthat,too.Alotofbreakingup,alotofdestructivethingsallthroughthat;itwashardonpeople.Theseweren’t:youjustgotomeetingsandyouhavefun;therewasalsoalotoftensionaroundthis.

Andrea:Ithinkalotofpeople...Imean,myrecollectionofthefirstfouryearsofSimonFraser,isthateveryonechangedpartners.Foronereasonoranother...weweredoingitforpoliticalreasons,butotherpeopleweredoingitforotherreasons(laughter).Butit’sthepointthatyou’remaking,Jean,thattheviolenceofit–I’dsortofforgottenthat.Andjusthowyouhadtodefendjusthavingameetingwithonlywomen;Imeanthatwasacauseforsomuchangst.

Marcy:Anger,realanger.

Pat:Iwasn’tupatSimonFraseryet,butallyouguyshadtheFeminineActionLeague,andthejokesaboutFAL...

Marcy:Oh,Ididn’thearthat,butIdidwritealittlearticlesayingthatweweredoingthis,andtheyput...itwaseitheranarticleoraletter...andthePeakeditorsputtheseearsonthetopofthenewspaper(Likebunnyears?):Twobreasts,bare!Irememberthat,becausethenIwasforcedintothepositionofwritinganotherletterback(Laughter)!Fightingthesexualtrivialization,orsomething!

Anne:Andwhatthemenweresayingisthatthiswasunderminingthewholerevolutionandweweresettingitbackforeverforourownlittlepettypersonal....

Marcy:Themostbourgeoisonesweretheonessayingthat!

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Jean:Iremember...therewasaconferencesponsoredbytheNDY(NewDemocraticYouth)worker-studentallianceorsomething,anditwasinBanff;abunchofuswentuptoit.Thisconference...Idon’trememberwhen...

[Thenextsectionofthetapeisanattempttodistinguishvariousconferencesin1968or1969,andJean’srecollectionofJimHarding’sspeechclaimingthathehadstartedthewomen’sgroupatSimonFraser,butitwasn’tagoodidea,sohecancelledit!.]

Pat:Sobasically,whatwe’resayingaboutthefallof’68isthatalotofenergywentfrombeingintheWomen’sCaucustothatwholethingaroundtheOccupation,andIthinkwhoeversaiditwasright,IknowIwastotallyinvolvedandthenafterwardsittookahorrendousamountoftimeorganizingthedefenceandalltherestofit...Ispenttwoorthreemonthsworkingonthedefencecommittee,gettingpeopletogether,gettingpeopleorganized,tryingtofigureoutwhatweweregoingtodo.Then,ofcourse,weallwentinandpaidour$250fines,andthatwasit.Butthattookupquiteabitoftime,evenintoMarch’69orsomething.Alotofpeoplewereinvolvedinthat.

Marcy:Therewasstill,wemusthavebeendoingstillsomefairlyspecificwomen’sandpoliticalwomen’sactivitiesinorderforustobereadytoopentheofficeintheLabourTemple.Wehadtodotheotherthings.

Jean:itmusthavebeenFebruaryorMarch.

[AdiscussionofwhentheofficeintheLabourTempleactuallyopened.Thegroupconcludedthatan“action”–aWomen’sHistoryPageantofsomesort-hadtakenplaceattheLabourTemplebeforetheofficeopened.]

Marcy:Itwasterriblydidactic.

Pat:Itwasabsolutelyghastly!Ithaddifferentpeopledoingtheselongreadings,hideousreadings,really.And“BreadandRoses”:becausenobodyplayedmusicatthatpoint,anoldscratchyrecordingthatyoucouldn’tmakeitout;youcouldn’t

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eventellitwasmusic.Itwasunbelievablyawful.Fortunately,onlyabouttenpeoplecame.

Marcy:That’snottrue,Pat!Therewerelotsandlotsofwomenthere,includinganumberofwomenwhohadlefttheCommunistPartyin1968overtheinvasionofCzechoslovakia.Theyweresortofnotsureaboutthis,becausethey’dalwaysheldtheirownCPInternationalWomen’sDaycelebrationsandtheycametoours,because,ofcourse,theycouldn’tgototheonethattherumpoftheCPwasholding,andIreadsomethingfromanumberofwomensocialistsfromRussiaandIalsoreadsomethingfromourcomrade,LeonTrotsky.Icouldjustseethemdownthere.Theyallhadpracticallyapoplecticfaces,likethenameofTrotskybeingspokenthere!!!AndMaxSchnee--Ican’trememberexactly--shemighthavebeentheonebecauseshehadthosecontactswhogotthosewomencoming.

Pat:Youmayhavesaidthattherewerelotsofpeople,butwhatIremember,really,wasaverylargeauditoriumwithnotmanypeopleinit.

Jean:No,therewerewaytoomanyofthem(Laughter!!).

Marcy:Butremember,wethoughtitwasOK.Lookingbacknowwithmoresophisticatedandculturedeyes(laughterandexclamationsofOhno!!!).

Pat:Ohno!Weknewitwasadisasterevenwhileweweredoingit!That,Iremember!

Marcy:Itwasthefirsttime,though.

Pat:Itwasthefirsttime;wegotbetteratdoingallthesethings.

Marcy:Andthatwasatthesametimeaswewereorganizingtheabortioncounsellingservice.WithDonnaLiberson,andHelenPotrebenko.Everybodyknowsthatitwascompletelyandtotallyillegaltobedoinganythinglikethat.Wehavetomakesurethatwegetthat(fact)inthere.Somehowthatwasconnectedwithsomeoftheeducationalworkonbirthcontrolthatwedecidedweweregoingtodo.

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Pat:Weweredoingthatfrom1968;alongwiththeeducationalwork,wedecidedthattheotherrealareaofconcerntowomen,particularlywomenstudents,washowtogetanabortion.

Andrea:Andhowtogetbirthcontrol,becausethatwasillegal.

Pat:That,wedidn’tgetinvolvedin.Whatwedidgetinvolvedinwastherealbiggie–gettingpeopleabortions.Andwetookonepersonamonth(atSFU)beingthecontact-personforthefewresourcesthattherewere.WeevenranadsinthePeaksaying:Women,areyouhavingproblems:Well,youcancallthisnumber,withoutspecifyingwhatitwas.Butthewordgotaround,anditwasreallyhair-raisingwhenitwasyourturntodothis,because,firstofall,yougotacertainnumberofdesperatecalls,andthereweren’tverymanyresources.

Anne:WasitDonnawhodevelopedthecontactwithDr.Makaroff?

Marcy:Idon’tknowwhodid.

Jean:Well,Makaroffwasreallywellknown,goingbackto1964,whenIfirstmovedouthere.

Pat:Peopleknew,andthentherewasaclinicoverinWestVan,butwecouldn’tsendanyonetothat:theywould“takeyourappendixout”for$1500.Butnobodyhad$1500,butBobMakaroffwouldsometimesdoslidingscale.Hischargewasbasically$500,buthewoulddoitforless.

Ellen:Iseemtoremembersometripsacrosstheborderaswell.

Pat:Well,theyfinallyopenedupaclinicinRenton,justsouthofSeattle;wesentsomepeoplethere,andthenHarveysomebodyorother,inLAorOaklandwithvacuumaspiration,butthatwaslater,morelikethesecondyearthattheywereoperatingbecausewestillcouldn’tgetthemhere.Thatwasscary,butwedidit.

Andrea:HowdidDonnagetintoitatthatpoint?

Pat:ShewasafriendofBrenda’sandafriendofmine;shelivedrightbesidemeinthenextapartmenthouse,andtheabortionstuff...Ihadafeelingthatshe’dhadatleastoneabortionherself.Anyway,somethingreallystruckanervewithher,

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andshehadthatentrepreneurialenergy.Shejustwantedtorunwithitandshedid.Becauseinthosedays,pregnancytesting,youwenttoadoctorandtheymightgiveyoutheresultsintwoweeks,ortheymightmakeyouwaitforsixorwhatever,whichwasdisgusting.Andsooncewehadtheoffice,itwasonceamonthorsoclinic,peoplecouldcome.Idon’tknowhowwegottoHelen.

Jean:Well,HelenwasinvolvedreallyearlyonbecauseIremembermeetingwithHelen;andtheotherpersonwhogotinvolvedreallyearlyonwasMaryStolk.Shehadbeenactuallydoingstuffaroundabortionformanyyearsalready,asaCatholic;shewasinvolvedinsomeCatholicwomen’sgroups,thatgotoutfirstofallinformationonbirthcontrol.Itwasallveryhush-hush.IthinkitwassoonafterIstartedworkingatSimonFraserthatIrememberedmeetingwithHelenandIthink,Mary;Marywasanurse.Shereallyputalotintothistoo.

Anne:Thatwouldbeanimportantthing,ifthosewomengettogethertoreconstructthatpartofit.

Pat:TheotherthingthatI’llsayisthatAnnThomsoniswritingabookaboutEverywoman’sHealthClinic,butshe’sgoingbackandfocussingquitestronglyonthebeginningsofthis,sotheremaybeawholebunchoftapesandinformation.ButIalwaysfindwhenit’sjustmeandaninterviewer,thatthere’ssomuchIdon’tremember.(WinningChoiceonAbortion:HowBritishColumbianandCanadianFeministsWontheBattlesofthe1970sand1980sbyAnnThomson.TraffordPublishingLtd.,2004)

Ellen:Thesegroupdiscussionsarehelpful.IthinktheotherthingthatIfindinterestingisthatit’sgonefromtheSimonFrasergroup(bothstudentsandworkersatSimonFraser)tosuddenly–I’minvolvedatUBCandotherpeoplewhoarenotstudentsareinvolved:thefocushasshiftedverymuchawayfromstudentpolitics.Andyet,iflookatallofuswhoareactive,we’renotincludinganyoftheotherthingswewerestillworkingon.WehadthiscoreofWomen’sCaucuswhichwecouldgotoforsupport,andthatwewereusingformanyofusasourcentralfocusinanalysisandpractice.Butwealsousedthatenergytofuelotheractivities.Andthat’swhyIthinkthe“tree”ideawouldbeuseful,becausesomany

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thingsgrewoutofthatanalysis.Aswegotstrongeraswomen,weusedthattofuelotherthings.

Andrea:Although,itstrikesmethatwhatwashappeningwas,asAnnesaidearlier,thatwomen’sissueswereatthebottomoftheagendaandthey’dfalloffifsomething(camealong),andIthinktheagendawasgettingreversed,sothatthewomen’sissueswerecomingtothetopoftheagenda,formepersonally,andthatifanythingwasgoingtofalloff,itwasgoingtobesomethingelse.

Anne:Butmymemoryofthat--andeverybodyhasadifferentplaceinhowthatdevelopedintheirhistoriesinthegroupingsandaroundWomen’sCaucus--whereitreallyascendedandtheothersdroppedoffwasmoreafterthestrikewhentherewerelegalappeals.Youknow,themenflounderedandtalkedabout--anddidsetup--somekindoflaboureducationcentre.Thewomen,whohadhadthisfermentofthingsdevelopingandthentheshiftwentwholehogonthat.Imean,Ithinkyou’reright;it’saprocess,andwhenexactlyitwasfordifferentpeopleanddifferentactivities...Butmysense,itdidn’tcomefull-bloomuntil’69,inthatperiod.

Jean:Well,’70,really.(Generalagreementonthedate)

Jean:BecauseIthinkthataroundthestrikein’69,thesamekindofthinghappenedthathappenedaroundtheOccupation,eventhoughsomeofuswerereallyfrustratedbyitanddidn’twantittohappen,andwantedtokeepfeministorganizingatthetopoftheprioritylist,weweren’tallthatsuccessful.WedidputoutthePedestal,andthattookalotoftime.Atthesametime,Ithinkwewereall...Ithinktherewasalotmoreaboutwomeninthestrikethantherehadbeenintheoccupation.

Ellen:Butthewholethingbecameakindofvortexcenteringontheabortion(issue)andallthedemonstrationsandralliesandactions,andthentheabortioncavalcadeitself.Itwentbyreallyfast.

Andrea:Goingintothesummerof’70...

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Pat:Somaybeweshouldbackupalittlebit;Ithinkwe’regettingaheadofourselves.

Anne:Throughthisperiod,through’68tothefallof’69,whentheabortioncounsellingserviceandtheeducationalworkisgoingon...Iwasjustsuggestingthatthosepeoplecouldreconstructtheabortioncounsellingservice,andthatmightbeathingtodoatsomepoint.Idon’tknowifpeoplewantanymorearoundthis,ordowewanttogointothesummerof’69:theofficeissetup.ItgoestotheLabourTemple.

Pat:Howdidthathappen?

Jean:Well,therewas...

Marcy:Weputthoseeducationalsonfirst,beforeweactuallygotanoffice,attheLabourCentre.

Andrea:Wethoughtweneededone;weconvincedtheLabourTempletogiveusthisspace.

Jean:Werentedit.

Pat:Thirtydollarsamonth.

Marcy:Itwasalotofmoneyinthosedays.Andaphone.

Jean:Yeah,aphone:that’samajorexpense.Irememberworryingaboutthat.Beforeweactuallygottheoffice,weorganizedsomeofthedemonstrationsaroundwomenintheworkforce.Andthatwasmajorlyimportant:likeallthestuffaboutthepostoffice,aboutequalpay.

Marcy:AndpicketingthePostOffice.

(DemonstrationsatChristmas,’69andanotherin’70:checkthePedestalfordetails)

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Marcy:Anumberofthingsinthatparticularperiodwedidgetpressinthemainstreampapers,forboththeEngineersClubandthefirstPostOfficepicket,andsomeotherthingsthatwedid.

[Ref.ToPedestal,Oct.’69fortheEngineers’Clubdemo.]

GAPINTAPE:PickupwithAndrea:

Andrea:Callingourselvesfeministsratherthanwomen’sliberationists

Anne:Itwastheotherwayaround;wewantedtobewomen’sliberationists.Wefeltverystronglythatthatwasdifferentthanafeminist.

Andrea:Infacttheterm“feminist”hastakenoverthepopularconsciousness.

Ellen:IthinkwhatIsaidisthatthat’swhenthereisamajorpoliticalshiftfromabaseinaclassanalysisconcernedwithinternationalrevolutiontoequalitypolitics.Idon’trememberitbeingabigdiscussioninternaltous–maybesomediscussiondownattheCarrallStreetoffice;Ican’tevenremember.Didn’ttheTrotsstartputtingthe“VelvetFist”in1971?Andusingtheterm“feminism”?ItwasaTorontopublication.

Andrea:Idon’tknowthatitwasussomuch,butthatgeneralshiftyou’rereallyrightabout–thatkindofshiftfromwomen’sliberationtofeminism.Itwasalinguisticsignal.

Marcy:Andalsomanywomenweredoingsomeresearchintohistory,organizingforwomen’srightsandcameupwiththeinformationthatwehadn’treallyspentmuchtimethinkingabout,whichwasthattherewasalong,longlineageofwhatwenowcallfeministthoughtandfeministorganizinginavarietyofareas.Perhapstherewasthatadditionofknowledgeofthepastthatwehadn’tspentalotoftimethinkingaboutbefore.

Pat:Irememberfindingsomemagazinesinsomejunkstoreorsomething–therewasamagazinecalled“TheArena”publishedaroundtheturnofthecentury.Ihadanumberofcopiesofthismagazine;itwassmallishinformat;itwasamagazineofsocialcomment;itdidn’thavepicturesoranythinglikethat.Every

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issuehadanarticleonwomen;thisislike1903,1904,1907andhonestly,Icanrememberthinkingatthetime,youjustchangeafewreferencesinthesearticlesandtheyweretotallyup-to-date.TheywereAmericanmagazines.Itwasjustarealeye-openerbecausesolittleoverseventy-oddyearshadchanged:therewasstuffonchildcare,stuffonworkingwomen,allthesethings,anditwasstillallthesame.

Ellen:RememberwhenwediscoveredKollentaiandsomeofthosediscussions,itwasWow!Allin1911.

Andrea:YesterdayintheSun(VancouverSun)inareviewof_____________Gates,andthepartthatstruckmewasthattherewasagenerationalbacklashafterthesuffragettes--sortoflikeyoungwomenandustoday.Thatwaskindofinterestingtoo,becausethatwasoneIhadn’tknown.Notonlyhavewegonethroughthewave,we’vegonethroughthebacklash!

Anne:Idon’trememberthedebatebeingbetweenwomen’sliberationversusfeminism.Idon’trememberthosewords.Irememberwomen’sliberationbeingimportanttousbecausetherewereliberationstrugglesgoingoneverywhere,andwewerepartofallthat,sowhatitwascounterposedto...

Andrea:No,thishappenedlater.Ithinkthefeminism-liberationthinghappenedaftertheCaucushadbasicallyceasedtobe,andIjustwonderedifwehadevertalkedaboutthat.

Anne:Wetalkedaboutsomething.Wetalkedaboutthosewords.Wedid,inthePedestal,wetalkedaboutwhetherwewereawomen’sliberationgroupbecausetherewasallthisstuffgoingonintheStates.Idon’trememberwhattheycalledthemselvesbutwewantedtobedifferentthanconsciousness-raising.

Pat:TherewasalsoReformvs.Revolution;thatwasthebigquestion:Arewereformistorrevolutionary?Inyourpapers(Jean’s)there’smentionofthat,andthere’sprobablyapapertitled“ReformorRevolution”!

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Anne:Andtherewaslotsofdiscussionofwhetherwomen’sliberationwaspoliticalornot,orwasitrelationshipsbetweenpeopleandworkingoutallthatstuff,andwewereverykeenonbeingpolitical.

Ellen:It’sinterestingthatthesixwomenaroundthistableallnoddedwhenyousaid:wecalledourselveswomen’sliberationandweidentifiedwithotherliberationmovements,soweclearlycamefromthatbase.

Andrea:Sothat’swhy,whentheword“feminism”tookover,Ifeltithadsnuckuponme.Ididn’tfeelthatIhadmadeaconsciouschoice,achangeinmythinkingthatIwasafeminist–notthatIobjectedtobeingafeminist.ButIthoughtthatyou(Ellen?)werereallyrighton:thatsignalledashiftevenifnoone...

Marcy:Iwonderhowmuchofthatwasfall-outbothfromtheNDPorCCFandtheCommunistPartyintermsoftheirattitudes,theirsupportofequalitystrugglesandthatkindofthing,butfeminismwasidentifiedbyboththeCPandatleastsomepeopleintheCCFassomehowverymiddleclassandsomewhatprivilegedanddismissivetotheworkingclass.Thatwassomethingthatwewereprobablyawareof.

Andrea:Ithinkfeminismgottobethedominantwordbecauseofacademics.

Marcy:That’sright.That’sareallyimportantpoint.

Andrea:Thattheyweretryingtomakethemselvesmoreacceptable...

Anne:Ordiditcomeoutofthesuffragettes,andwewereafraidofbeingjustthat?

Ellen:Well,therewasawholequestion:Irememberasking(formerNDPMP)GraceMacInnisifshewasafeministandshesaid:No,I’mnot.No,I’mdefinitelynotafeminist;I’masocialist.Andthensomeonestartedtosay:I’masocialistfeministandotherssaidI’mafeministsocialist.

Jean:Allthosekindofthingsaboutlanguagearecontradictory,Iguess,butIrememberfeelingthattheword“feminist”wastheonewedidwanttoclaim,thatpeoplewhoclaimedthatfeminismwasmiddle-classandstufflikethat,were

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attackingthewholeideaofanautonomouswomen’smovementandbasicallyatthetime,theCPCMLandtheCommunistPartylinewasthatwhatweweredoingwaswreckingandsplitting–that’swhatitcamedownto.AsIrecall(mymemoryisn’tallthatgreatonthatsortofstuff),Iwantedtocallmyselfbothafeministandawomen’sliberationist.Ididn’tseetherebeingadistinctionthere;Ididn’tseethosetwothingsbeingincontradiction.Ithoughtthatbothofthosewordsmeantmorethan“women’srights”.Youknow,peoplewhowouldsay“I’minfavourofwomen’srights,butI’mnotafeminist”.

Andrea:They’restillsayingthat!

Jean:Tome,beingafeministmeantthatwecoulddevelopawomen’smovementthathadarevolutionaryscope,sortof,oraglobalscope.

Ellen:ButIthinkthatwasbecauseatthatpointitwasjusttheuseofthewordtoholdusback.Later,itbecameawordthatcouldbeembracedbyKimCampbell(ConservativePrimeMinister).Thenwehadtodefinethedifference.That’sanextremeexample,butIthinkthenlateronwestartedtohavedifferenttendencieswithintheautonomouswomen’smovement.

Jean:Actuallythatwastrueevenfairlyearlyon.Itwastruethattheword“feminist”wasmuchbroaderthanwomen’sliberationbecausetherewasthatgroupinToronto–whowerethey?–theycalledthemselvesfeministsandtheywereprettyearly,weren’tthey?

Ellen:Well,IrememberEileenGregory;theyformedtheMP;theyweren’tMarxistoranything.

Pat:Whenyouthinkaboutit,women’srights,andfeministsgenerally–that’swhatitsortofreferredto:peoplewhowereinfavourofwomen’srights.Youcanbeinfavourofwomen’srightswithinthecontextof:menhavecertainrightsandthewomenshouldhavethoserights,oryoucouldsaythatwhattheworkingclasshaveingeneralisn’tenough.Thenyou’regoingwellbeyondtheissueofrights,becauserightsareoftenalreadydefinedby,they’realreadylegitimizedbecausewhatyou’resayingisthatthisgroupalreadyhastheserights,andtheothergroupshouldhavethem,withoutlookingatthequestionof:“wheredotheserights

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comefrom,andwhodefinesthem,andwholimitsthem,moretothepoint?”Wewereallmoreinterestedinpushingthelimitsandaskingthosemorefundamentalquestions.

Andrea:Iagreewiththat,andIthink,Imean,Irememberwehadlotsofdebatesaboutcouldworkingforequalrightsbeeitherbeneficialorhamperingtothe“greatworldofthefuture”.Butitisinterestingthatalotoftimesonethinksofasocialmovementgoingfromtheequityissuestocomingupagainstthepolemics(?)andthenbecomingmoreradical.ButIagreewithyou;Ithinkwedidittheotherwayaround.Notthatwewereagainstequityissues,butrightfromthestart,wedidn’tthinkthoseweregoingtodoit.

Marcy:Irememberframingitquitesimplybysuggestingthatweweren’treallyinterestedinbecomingCEOsofmulti-nationaloilcompaniesorforsomereasonthepresidentofShellOil;wedidn’twantthat.Thatissomethingthatstuckinmymindassomethingthatwasquiteconceivablethatwomenwouldwanttoworktowardsthat.Thatwasn’twhatwewerewantingtoworktowards.

Pat:IcanrememberMelodyKillian..(

(Uproaroversomethingliquidbeingspilledonpaper.AdditionalupdatefromPat2013:She,Melody,pointedoutthatwewerenottryingtoenablewomentobecomeGeneralsinthearmy;thatwasn’tourgoal.)

Anne:Whywerewe,orwhoeverbeganWomen’sCaucus,everybody–whywasitmorethatway,hereinVancouver?SayunlikemanypartsoftheStates,orotherwomen’sgroups?Whydidweendupwiththat.Wasitpersonalhistory?

Marcy:Itwasmorethanthat;itwaspeoplefromSaskatchewan.

Anne:ItwasobviouslyCCFhistoryinSaskatchewan,andthelabourmovementinBC.Youhavetolookatthose.

Ellen:Youhavegobackandlookatwhoweretheearlyagitators,andtheywereUkrainians.AlotofthemostprogressivepeoplewereUkrainians.Youknowthat,Jean.TheyweretheradicalswhostartedtheCP.AlotofthemostradicalmovementscameoutofVancouver,morethaninindustrializedEasternCanada.

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Pat:Butthenalotofthepeopleinvolvedearlyinthewomen’smovementherecameoutofthestudentmovement.Youcanalsolookattheeffectsofthatdepartment(PSA:PoliticalScience,SociologyandAnthropologyatSFU).Youknow,hundredsofpeoplesittingtherereadingMarxandLenin,and“WhatIsToBeDone?”

Andrea:Puttingthattogether,itseemstomethatthesituationherewasmorefertilebecauseofitshistory,andthenalltheseyoungpeople...alotofuscamefromtheStatesandhadbeeninalotofexperiences...

Anne:ButitisinterestingthatmorethanintheStates,whenyoucametoCanada,whenyoucametoVancouver,peopleweresittingaroundreadingMarxandLenin,andtheywerenotinthecivilrightsmovementorthestudentmovementintheStates.Soourexperiencesinthosekindofthings–whathitmecomingtoCanada–waskindofthatwholeclassconsciousnessandlabourhistoryandconnectiontolabour,whichI’dneverexperienced.

Pat:It’samuchstrongerlabourhistoryhere.

Andrea:Well,itdependsonwhereyouwereintheStates.IwasattheUniversityofWisconsin,andithadaverylonghistoryofradicalism,sointellectuallyitwasn’ttotallyforeign.

Anne:DidyoureadMarx?

Andrea:Yes,Idid,actually,buttherewastheenvironmentherethatsupportedthatkindof...

Marcy:Theformalpoliticalenvironmentintermsoftheelectoralstuffaswellasthelabour...OneofthethingsIrememberDodieWepplerdoingwassheworkedonherMaster’sthesis.SheinterviewedMaryNorton,andIrecallthatbeingquitesomethingthatIwasawareofatthetime,andthatDodiewasactuallyinterviewingthosewomen,whenshedidthatthesisonwhitewomen’sactivisminearlyB.C.Sheactuallyinterviewedthem.Thiswouldbe1971-or’70or’69.SheinterviewedsomeofthewomenwhohadbeenB.C.suffragists,andthathadaninfluence.

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Ellen:ThereweretheDoukhobors.Nativewomenwereverystrongwithalandbasehere.Therewasabroad-basedradicalmilieu,intellectualcontextandthenIthinkofwhathappenedtoyouallatSimonFraserwastheimpetustotakeiton.

Andrea:AlsobecauseBCprobablyhadn’tbeenindustrialized;whereitwasinitsownsocio-economichistory,notjustitsleft-winghistory.

Jean:AlthoughVancouverthenwasamuchmoreindustrializedtownthanitisnow.But,Ithinkthatinsomeways,Ithinkthisstuffaboutthemilitancyandleft-wingnessoftheBClabourmovementwasabitofamyth.Itwasn’treallybuiltthatway.Butontheotherhand,Ithinkwhatwastruewasthattherightwing–boththerulingclassandtheright-wingwithinthetradeunionmovement–wassomuchstrongerintheeast,thatthatprobablyhadaneffect.Icanrememberfeelingwaymoreintimidatedasaleft-wingerandasafeministinTorontothanhere.Stillinthelate‘60sandearly‘70s,itwasstillalmostMcCarthyistinOntario.

Marcy:WhenwastheemergenceoftheWaffle?’69,wasn’tit?

Anne:McCarthyism,Ithink,isanimportantfactor.IntheStates,somanypeopleafraidofMarxismandofbeingcalledaCommunist,[Voice:heretoo]butnowhere(tothesameextent)...obviouslyitwasterriblyoppressive.Thewaypeople,whenIfirstcameupin’68,or’67itwas,Iwasreallysurprisedthewaypeopleusedthatterminology.Itwasthekindofthingyouwouldbestoned(withrocks)intheStatesifyousaidthosethings!!Ijustcansorememberhowdifferentitwas.

Marcy:ItwasOKtobealiberalintheStates,butcertainlynotaMarxist.Itwasbecoming(OKtobe)asmall-lliberalpoliticallyintheStatescomingoutofMcCarthyismandblack-listing,butyoucouldn’treallysay...IrememberRogerPerkinstellingmethatinthecityhewasfrom,whetheryousaidyouwerealiberaloracommunist:itwasthesamething!

Ellen:Thosepeoplewereblack-listedintheUS;mydadandIwerejusttalkingabouthowpeople(inCanada)losttheirjobsallacrosstheboard,andTimBuckgotjailedandshotatwhileinjail,andpeoplewerejailedforbeingspies.I’mjustsayingthattheeastwasdifferentfromouthere.

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Jean:IrememberwhenImovedoutherefromToronto.InToronto,itwasveryscarytogoonsomedemonstrations.IcanrememberbeingondemonstrationsinsupportofCubaandthinkingthatweweregoingtogetourheadsbashedinbyright-wingersandcounter-demonstrators.AndtheTorontocopsweremuchmoreaggressiveagainstthepeacemovementandstufftoo.Theyusedtorideintoourdemonstrationswithhorses,whichdidn’thappenhere.WhenIcamehere,oneofthefirstdemonstrationsthatIwason,Iwasamazedthatsomecopwaswearingabutton!Itwaslike:What’sgoingonhere?!

Marcy:Well,throughoutthe1950sandintothe‘60s,thepeacemovementmountedanumberofreallyfairlylargedemonstrationsinVancouver,which,whenIwasdoingtheresearchformythesis,Iwassurprisedtofind–theearly1960s–thereweresomereallybigdemonstrations.Iwentonmyfirstdemonstrationin1967.Itseemed...itwasn’tthatbig.Itwasn’tasbigastheonesfortheCubanMissilecrisisandwhentheBerlinWallwasbuilt.Butthereweresomeprettylargedemonstrations.

Jean:Wehadaprettybigonein1966;IrememberthatwasthefirstbigoneIwentto.

Marcy:Like600orsomething?

Jean:Ohno!Waybiggerthanthat!Liketwotofourthousand.[Ellen:Wow!]

Andrea:Ithink,Ellen,you’reright,becausewomen’sgroupingsintheeastatthetimewe’retalkingaboutlookedtous,here,asbeingveryavantgarde.AndIthinkit’sbecauseinTorontoandMontreal,theywerestillfeelingmuchmoreconstrainedbytheleftandtheright,thanwewere.Itmay,Jean,bemoreofamyththanareality,forpeoplecominguphere–Now,I’magreeingwithAnne--itwentlike:Wow!BecausewehadbelongedtotheNewLeftReviewinWisconsin.LikewhenwewentwiththeBayofPigsinvasionandallthat,itwassomescarytogoonthosedemonstrations.Asyoudescribedit,youmightgettheshitknockedoutofyou.ThiswasinMadison,whichwasaprettyradicalkindoftown.SoIcamehere,andyoucantalkaboutthesethings.Peoplewouldsay:Ohyes,butI

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disagreebecauseinthisvolume...(laughter!)anditwouldturnintoanintellectualdebateinsteadof“Youcangetyourteethknockedout!”

Ellen:Wehaven’treallytalkedaboutVoiceofWomen–hadalreadystartedandtheWomen’sInternationalLeagueforPeaceandFreedom–sowhatrelationshipdidtheyhave,ifanything,withWomen’sCaucus?

Jean:Notmuch.Andalso,theotherthingthathappened-I’veneverbeenabletotrackthisdowneither–thattheVancouverStatusofWomenactuallyformedaroundthattime...oracoupleofyearsafter.(Discussion:theiranniversarywaslastyear;their25thanniversary...1970-71?)

Jean:TherewasaVictoriagroupstartedbeforethat;Iremembertheywereinvolvedin...

Ellen:Theywerefocussedprovincially;Imean(NDPMLA)RosemaryBrownandGeneErringtonweretalkingaboutthatatthetwenty-fifthanniversaryabouttryingtochangeprovinciallaw.

Jean:IwasthinkingaboutthisgroupinVictoriathatsupportedworkingwomen’sstrugglesandstuff.ThatwascalledtheStatusofWomenActionGroup.

Anne:Anyway,wherearewegoingwiththis?[Aside:well,we’reprovidingcontext.]Dowefeelthatwehavethator...I’msorry,Idon’tmeantobetoodirective...[Voices:No,it’sgood!]

Jean:ButIdothinkweshouldtrytofigureouthowweweredistinguishedfromthoseothergroups.Maybethat’sfairlysimple,butIdon’tknow.Itseemstomethatitwas,likewewerethewomen’sliberation,basically,although,Idon’tknow...

Ellen:Well,therewastheWomen’sCaucus,buttherewastheVoiceofWomen,therewastheWomen’sInternationalLeagueforPeaceandFreedom,andtherewasagroupatUBCthatwasfocussedonUBCwomen.Werethereanyotherkey.......

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Jean:ThegroupatUBCwasconnectedtoWomen’sCaucus,wasn’tit?Therearesomereferencesinpapers...

Ellen:Thatwaslateron,butnotactively.Iwasthemain...therewereacoupleofusindependently,buttheWomen’sCaucusgroup,Idon’tthinktheywereasactive.

Jean:Itwasn’tthat...Itseemstomeatleastfrommypointofview–probablybecauseofwhatIwasfocussedonmyself–Women’sCaucuswasn’t....well,wetriedtobeafairlybroadorganizationandnotjust...notasortofavanguardofthewomen’smovement.Imeanyoudidn’thavetobearevolutionarysocialisttobeinWomen’sCaucus,andIthinkthatwedidorganizegroupsofbothhighschoolstudents,workingwomenandteachers.

Marcy:Therewaslotsofinterestindoingfairlypracticalthings,aswellasdoingmoreesotericthinkingsortsofthings...

Jean:Andalotoftheactualactionswerearoundequalityissues,but,Ithinkthereisstill–althoughIthinkwestillhavetosupportalltheequalitystuff–butIthinktherearemajordifferencesbetweentheonesthataffectwholegroupsandtheonesthatbasicallyaffectindividuals.Thattofightforequalityintheworkforcecanmeanawholebunchofdifferentkindsoffights,andsomepeoplesawthatasmeaning...

Ellen:HowwastheWomen’sCaucusorganized?Youjustsaidthereweretheintellectualdiscussionsandthepoliticaldiscussions.

Andrea:Itseemstomewhathappenedwasthatoriginallyeverybodywasdoingeverything,becausethereweren’tthatmanypeople,butthenbecausetheactionswere-well,someofthemwerefairlyscarytonon-members–theywerereasonableactions–thenwhathappenedfairlyquicklywasthatwesubdividedintovariouscaucuseswithintheCaucus.Sotherewastheworkingwomen’sorganizationthatdidstuffmorearoundunionstuff,wagestuff.Therewasakindofeducationalwing,andthatdidstuffbotharoundteachersandaroundstudents;Ischleppedofftoanawfullotofclassesanddidmyroutinethere,andthatonesortofwentintostartingWomen’sStudiesprograms.Thentherewas

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thewholemediathing;youwereinvolvedinthat:youdidthatslideshowandtherewerevariousactionsaroundmedia.Andthentherewassortofsexualityissues:counselling,abortioncampaigns,etc.Somyrecollectionistherewasthose–themediawasprobablythelesser.Rememberwedidagit-proptheatre?Sothatwaskindofthemedia-artsywing.

Anne:Rememberthatbeautycontest?Wegotbigmediaresponsetothatthere.

Andrea:AndthatwaswhereMissCherry’sCharmSchoolcameinandwherewealsodid“ShiftAfterShift”;rememberthatwonderfulagit-proplittlesketch....Wehadaspeakers’bureau.(Discussion:weallwenttovariousschools;PointGrey;heldmeetingsforgeneraldiscussion).

Ellen:Werethoseclosedmeetingsoropen?

Jean:Theywereformembers,butitcosttwodollarsayearorsomethingtojoin.Anyonewhowantedtocouldjoin.

Andrea:AndIwasthetreasurer;wedidn’thaveanymoney.Irememberthatpart.Soweallmettogether;andIthinkthereweresub-caucusmeetingsaswell,right?(Discussion:wemetallthetime!!)Andthenifsomeonewasgoingtodoanaction,iftheworkingwomenweregoingtodoanaction,thentheywouldrecruitfromtherestofustohauloutanddowhateverthisthingwas.Imeanitwasn’tliketheyweretotallyexclusive.AndthentherewerethepeoplewhodidThePedestal.

Anne:ThePedestalwasveryimportantbecausetheneverybodytookthePedestaloneverydemonstrationthatwasgoingonatthattime,whichtherewerelots,besideswomen’sthings.We’dbesellingthePedestalandarguingwithpeopleaboutwomen’sstuff.Alotoftimewasspentonthatout-reach;Ithinkweactuallyspentafairamountoftimeonthat.

Pat:Wehadabigspeakers’list.

Jean:Wealldidthat.Irememberrunningaroundspeakingathighschools.

Ellen:Sowastherephones....

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Andrea:Yes,therewerephonetrees.

Ellen:Ifsomeonewantedaspeaker,wheredidtheyphone?

Anne:Let’sgoback;that’sagoodquestion,butlet’sgoback.WetalkedbrieflyaboutgettingthatofficeintheLabourTemple,andthenwehadaphone.Wedidn’tlastlong–twoorthreemonths?

Marcy:No,itwaslongerthanthat.(Discussion-wewenttoCarrollStreet;nowewerethereforatleastayear;generalbuzz)

Pat:Becausewehadalltheabortioncliniccounsellinginthatoffice.InMaywewerestillmeetinginit.

Anne:Beforewegototheendofit,let’sgotothebeginningofit:wesetuptheofficeintheLabourTemple.Let’stalkaboutwhathappenedthere.[Voice:Oh,that’sagoodthought!!!]

Pat:Sowedidhavemonthlymeetings.ThereasonIknowthat,notbecauseIdon’treallyrememberit,butbecauseJeanhasinherfolderacoupleofminutesthatsomebody,IactuallythinkitwasMaggie(Benston),diduponadittoandranoffandthey’retypedandeverything,andweallearnestlyreportedbacktothemeeting:whatwe’dbeendoingandso...IreportedonsomespeechI’dmade,andsomebodyelse,andsomebodyelseandsomebodyelse,andthere’sallthisstuffgoingonandpeoplearereportingbacktothemainmeetingwhat’shappening.

Jean:Thiswas1969.

Anne:Andabortioncounsellingwasalsogoingon.

Andrea:Andtherewaspeoplewho“personned”theoffice,toreceiverequestsforspeakersandtostafftheoffice.

Ellen:Wasthereamimeomachinethere?

Andrea:Oh,Idon’tthinkso.IrememberoneatCarrallStreetbutnottheLabourTemple.

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Jean:Well,Ithinkwedid,becauseIhavesomestuffleftoverfrompreviouslives.Didn’tIhavealittlemimeographmachine?IthinkIdid!

Anne:Ohgreat!Jeanandherlittlemimeographmachineunderherarm!Havemineo;Willmakerevolution!(Generallaughter)

Andrea:Andgestetner!

Jean:Thiswasn’titthough.ThiswassomethingthatMaggiedid;Ithinkyou’reright,becauseI’mprettysurethatthiswassomethingthatshedidatSimonFraser.

Marcy:Thisisgood,becausetherearesomehintsaboutwhencertainthingshappened.RememberweweretalkingaboutthatconferenceinBanff?InMayof1969!

Ellen:SowhatwashappeningwiththerestofB.C.?WasthereanyconnectionwiththerestofBC?OrToronto?TheStates?Orwasitkindofhaphazard?

Andrea:Weweretheonlygameintown,asfarasIcanrecall.Peoplecamethrough,butIdon’trememberanykindofmajorcontacts.

Jean:Intheseoldfiles,therearelettersfrompeopleinotherplaces,andthePedestalalwaysgotcorrespondencefrompeoplefromoutoftown.

Anne:Yes,wemailedthatout,acrossthecountry;peoplesubscribedtoit.

Ellen:AndthatcameoutoftheWomen’sCaucus,andwhendidthatcomeout?

Jean:ThePedestal?Yeah,in1969.IthinkwecalleditSeptember,butitwasreallyinAugust.

Pat:Buttheseminutesarejustwonderful...(seeminutesfordetails)

Anne:OK,we’rebackwiththis.YoustartedupintheLabourTemple;youhadabortioncounselling;youhadthesemonthlymeetings...

Jean:DidwefigureoutexactlywhenwemovedintotheLabourTemple?Wasn’tit...

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Anne:Lasttime,wesaidsomewherebetweenMayandAugustof’69.

Andrea:That’sright[Jean:earlierratherthanlater.]That’sright,andwestayedthereuntilthespringof’70,whenwemovedtoCarrallStreet.

Jean:WewerestillintheLabourTempleduringtheAbortionCaravan,sothatwasatleastuntilthesummerof’70.(No,no,no...muchheateddiscussionaboutdateofmove.)

Jean:IwasintheofficeinthebasementoftheLabourTemplewhenpeoplewerechainingthemselvestoParliament.WehadapressconferenceintheLabourTemple.Wehadpeoplethere;wegotawholebunchofotherunionistsfromtheLabourTempletocometoourPressConference.Wewerestillinthatoffice;wemust’vemovedshortlyafter.

Andrea:IhadbeeninQuebec,andwhenIcamebackinMay,andpeoplewerestillintheLabourTemple,andweveryquicklywenttoCarrallStreet.Itwasrightinthere.(June???)

Anne:Ican’tbelievemymemory;itmustbeoneblurthatputtheLabourTempleandCarrollStreettogetherbecauseIcansoclearlyseepeoplemeetingaroundtheabortioncaravaninCarrallStreet.

Andrea:Well,itwasstillgoingon;Ithinkitwasinbothplaces

Pat:Bythetimeeverybodygotback,andwewerestartingtohavethedebatesaboutwhathappenedandwhereweweregoing,wewereatCarrallStreet.IthinkitwasprobablyJuneof’70.

Anne:Juneof’70?Yup!

Marcy:Atonebenefit,weclearedtwenty-threedollars!

Andrea:Hey,thatwasbigbucksthen!(Laughter!)

ENDOFFIRSTTAPE(March9,1997)

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