why ribbon mics on electric guitars

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Articles Making Better Recordings Why Ribbon Mics On Electric Guitars?

Ribbon mics on electric guitars are all the rage Why? Is aRoyer R121 or Cascade FatheadII really THAT more potent

than a Shure SM57?

We hear lots and lots of people talk about ribbon mics onelectric guitars. I bought my Royer R121 back in 2005 andpicked up a pair of Cascade Fathead II's in 2009. TheRoyer is my first choice on electric guitars although thethe Fatheads do very nicely as well.

Why Ribbon Mics On ElectricGuitars?

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Why Ribbon Mics On Electric Guitars?This is an article on Why Ribbon Mics On Electric Guitars? part of the Home Recording Forum community: Ribbon mics on electricguitars are all the rage Why? Is a Royer R121 or Cascade FatheadII really THAT more .

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Published on 10-31-201111:46 PM Number of Views:4091

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Why Not SM57?I want to point out that I'm not a ribbon purist and I

certainly don't just grab the most expensive microphone.

A Shure SM57 is a fine tool for recording electric guitars.Some of the best guitar tones of all time have beencaptured with an SM57. There's no reason to assume it'sincapable. In many shootouts it's clear that the difference

between a SM57 and a Royer isn't going to change aguitar tone that gets a 1 into a guitar tone that gets a

10. So expectations need to be held in check. The RoyerR121 is not magical. It's just a different tool....like using a

PRS instead of a Les Paul or something.

The SM57 does deliver a lot of bite. Some may call it fizz.It's easy to let the top end of a guitar get away from youwith an SM57 if you aren't careful. Of course, top end on

an electric guitar is often quite a bit lower in frequencythan we intuitively think. The treble knob of most amps israrely centered over 5k or so.

The Too Much Top ProblemPaul999 sent me a mix he's working on for his new(SUPER BADASS) diary we hope to launch in the not-too-

distant future. (I think this is going to be a reallyawesome product and can't wait.) I thought he had a

pretty smokin' mix. He also sent the mix to Ronan Chris

Murphy (big dog who offers pro critiquing services). One ofthe things Mr. Murphy recommended was putting a lowpass on the guitars to knock out the extreme top end.

I didn't find the electric guitars to be overly bright, but I'mdefinitely not gonna argue with a guy in the league ofRonan Chris Murphy. (The story goes that Mike Shipleyassisted Murphy for some time. If you haven't heard his

work, you haven't been on a float trip in a while.) This is

one of those rare opportunities to learn something HUGE.While I haven't heard the post-Ronan-Chris-Murphy-

critique mix of Paul999, I have done some experimentingon my own.

I recorded a screamo band about a month ago and amFINALLY making my way to get serious about mixing it. Idecided to use SM57s for these guitars mainly just to

change things up. (Lesson #1: Don't change things up!) I

was looking for more bite and the mellow tendency ofribbons on electrics was something I was trying to avoid.

Note: I've recorded some AGGGRRESSSSSIVE, bitey

guitars with the Royer R121. A ribbon-recorded guitar

track only sounds mellow if you place it that way. Much

of what the ribbon ignores may be noticeable on hi-hats

or overheads (al though rocker producers like Michael

Wagener and Ross Hogarth use ribbons on overheads allthe time), but for electric guitars that stuff is so high in

frequency that losing it is not nearly as dreadful as I

originally expected.

Anyhow, so I'm mixing this screamo project and I decide

to see if we can get more sparkle up top in the cymbalsand vocals by putting a low pass on the electric guitars. I

quickly figured out that I can get away with a TON oflow-pass filtering. Yes, the fizz will disappear (and maybeI miss a bit of that), but when doing this I immediately

heard those other kinds of guitar tones that I frequentlyhear on big boy records. I intentionally took it too far andwas shocked by how far I had actually gotten in terms of

ditching the top end.

There was a point where I had to knock out160Hzbecause I didn't have the top end to compensate for thelow mid stuff anymore, but even then I could go evenfurther if I was so inclined. (Lesson #2: High gain guitars

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can get away with exceptionally little top end and uppermid if you keep the low end in line.)

About halfway through my little experiment I realized thatthis didn't sound too much different than a ribbon on abad day. What do I mean? I mean that using filters alwayshas byproducts. Usually, if a filter is truly needed, it's

worth it, but there are strange phase thingies going on

any time you use a filter or EQ. That's why it's best toavoid the mess i f possible. In short, where I ended up

sounded like a cheap emulation of a ribbon mic. Well, hell.Why did I use the SM57? I already have ribbons!

Oh yeah, the trick definitely works. The top end sparkle ofthe mix definitely shines when you clean up the offending

fizzy tracks a bit.

What Went Wrong With The SM57 Tracks?Part AWhen engineering electric guitars, the worst thing you cando is think. It's an engineering instinct to think of EQ as

the solution to most of our problems. In most cases, EQcuts off the icing when we need to make alterations to thecake. When a guitar isn't quite right, you know it. You

know it because you find your hands reaching for knobs oryour finger reaching for a plugin.

I teach in Killer Home Recording that you NEVER want tofeel the need to EQ a guitar track while tracking. Youknow you are on the right track when you feel no urge totweak. When you say, Well shit, I can't make those

better. or What would I even do to it if I was forced totweak? then you know you've got the cake right. You canalways add icing when you mix.

Why You Will Hate Ribbons The First TimeThe reason that most guys start out their love affair withribbons with a huge fight is the same reason these SM57

tracks had problems. The abundant top end in dynamics,which we've already established is optional in guitar land,

can mask problems in the bottom end. Ribbons don't have

such a top end and will put a microscope on that zit in thelow end.

I'll never forget the first time I used a Royer R121. I was

rocking a modern rock band. I told them I had a $1,100ribbon microphone that all the engineers were justravvvvvving about. The band, of course, was excited. I putthe mic in the usual place I start with an SM57. (On the

edge of the dustcap about 1 from the grill.) It was mud,

mud, mud, mud, and more mud.

As usual, all the hype from recording land resulted in alighter wallet and me scratching my head as to what I did

wrong. I let out a sigh and went to work. Actually, I'm noteven sure if the R121 made it onto those guitar tracks. Imay have said, Screw it!, and used a mic I was morefamiliar with.

There were a few mistakes I made that day.

Ribbons require different mic placement thandynamics or condenser mics.

Ribbons, permanently stuck in Figure 8, have themost intense proximity effect of all microphones.

Ribbons inherently have WAY more low end than

your usual dynamic.

Ribbons inherently roll off that top end that isoften unnecessary.....although no one told me thatthis top end was optional at the time.

Get the low end right with a ribbon and you can

often call it a day.


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What Went Wrong With The SM57 Tracks?Part BSo ultimately what happens is a good ribbon mic on agreat sounding guitar cab placed in the right spot is goingto automatically get everything above 1k right. (Again, ifyour tonal preference requires lots of fizz, you may need

to figure something out.)

Note: Another way of wording that statement is if

anything above 1k sounds weird, you should be able to

ENTIRELY solve the problem with mic

placement....assuming the guitar sound is perfect.....good

luck on that.

In the exact same situation, the SM57 is going to give usdramatically more fizz and MAYBE more bite. Again, a

well-placed ribbon can get very bitey in a hurry. All thatfizz forces us to make a decision. Do we like the fizz? Do

we want less of it? How much? If we decide we want totame the top end significantly, on a non-exceptional day

of work in the studio we will notice that we've got somelow end problems, too.

Maybe in this situations, we should have the discipline todeal with the low end issues first, and then go back to the

fizz. Maybe there is something to temporarily killing the

fizz, dealing with the low end, and then bring the fizz backin. Not sure.

All I know is the SM57 on electric guitars forces us to fight

a Two-Front War. We have to think about two sides of theseesaw at once, balance them, make sure one isn'tmasking problems in the other, and come out with a kickass tone. If we kil l too much fizz, the low end gets out-of-

whack. If we kill the low end, the top end gets weird

again. (We are seeing the immediately need to ditch this2-dimensional oversimplification of sound.) All the while

dealing with some distracting guitar player talking aboutsomething he read in Guitar World. At least he can read.

My experience with ribbons suggest, as mentioned, thetop end is gonna be right. We shouldn't have to worryabout the guitars fighting with the sparkle of cymbals.

They already have that covered in a way I consider to be

superior to EQ. With ribbons, all we have to do is get thelow-end right. You will hear more low end beef/mud thanyou are used to with a dynamic if using the same micplacement as the dynamic. So you gotta back it off a bit

and move it towards the center of the speaker...somethingI've never gotten right with an SM57.http://forum.recordingreview.com/f8/...et-away-42158/

Note: For the sake of our sanity, I've referred to sound inonly two dimensions. (Low end, top end.) We all know

that sound has about 20,000 dimensions. I needed a

breather from reality.

Conclusion

Rolling off the top end of high gain e lectric guitar

tracks can definitely give the impression of moresparkle in the mix without actually adding it.

You can (optionally) ditch tons and tons of topand upper mid bite in electric guitar tracks and

come out with them sounding pretty good. In less

extremes, a person could use shelving instead ofthe low-pass and get similar benefits in mix sparkleby simply taming the top of the guitar tracks just a

bit.

Well-placed ribbon mics will automatically solvethis top end problem and put you on the fast track


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of already exposing the low end problems thatwould, most likely, be there in the dynamic mictracks, too.

There's no reason you can't knock off all the fizzin you tracks recorded with an SM57, check for mud,deal with it (one the amp or with mic placement),and then bring the fizz back in as you feel inclined.

This does add a step in the process which can be

tough to pull off when a guitar player is flapping hisjaw about how Creed records their guitars.

You can avoid all the BS in this article by simplyslapping any old mic (dynamic or ribbon) up on aperfect sounding guitar amp.

Categories: Electric Guitar Recording

Tags: celestion g12h30, celestion greenback, celestion vintage 30,dynamic, electric guitar recording, ribbon, royer r121, shure sm57

14 Comments

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jdejonge likes this.

PunkGuy - 11-01-2011, 10:18 AM

Best EQ quote ever!

I think the W word is quite applicable

when it comes to ribbon mics. I don'tthink it is only high end that ribbons rolloff, though, I think the sound is alsomellowed out, probably because ribbons

tend to smooth out transients a bit. Thiscould be a good or bad thing on guitar,depending on the sound one is going for.

Of course I'm generalizing microphonesnow, but whatever...

In most cases, EQ cuts off

the icing when we need to

make alterations to the

cake.

Reply

solidwalnut - 11-01-2011, 12:56 PM

...or (and/or), learn multiple mic and micplacements so that they can blend tone

and come up with what you want, andchoose between certain tones for the

mix.

Reply

andresix - 11-01-2011, 03:09 PM

i've gone Ribbon/dynamic (beyerdynamic

m160 + sennheiser md421) on a high

gain guitar tone lately and shit it soundedsweet. I find the ribbon to be the most

straightforward mics to work with, on aacoustic guitar a good ribbon mic (whenwe're looking for a big, nice, ballady

Reply


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tone, not a Foo Fighters kra kra)slammed in front of it deals with thething just perfect. No Eq, no shit, it

sounds good. Rarely a case ^^

vodski - 11-01-2011, 03:10 PM

First time I tried a ribbon mic it was acheapo 60 one . After a few minutes ofmessing around , I found that putting it

about 8" away on the edge of thespeaker made the recording sound justlike what I could hear in the room. Ofcourse it was picking up a lot of the room

being figure 8 pattern, but it sounded

good. I've always found close mic-ing ,with a dynamic, to change the sound and

be less natural.

Reply

Danny Danzi - 11-01-2011, 03:24 PM

On the royer stuff, I think the problem isthe 121. If you get a chance, use the

R-101 next time. I find it works waybetter than the 121 because the morefidelity you get from a mic, the worse it

sounds for a dirty guitar. Sometimes thisfidelity comes by way of mud, other timesit comes by way of too much high end.

-Danny

Reply

dudermn - 11-01-2011, 03:46 PM

Recently worked with a Roland amp anda Fender Tele. I had to get out of tweed

to ultra-sonic bright without any

distortion while keeping the ball s. My firstidea was to place a cooking pan behind a

mic in-front of the speaker I broughtin alot of top end with a few EQs for it,kinda sounds like nylon strings on a steel

lap. I hate the sound but, if ze clients izthappi.....

Reply

KINFOLK- 11-01-2011, 05:30 PM

Hey Danny Its a bummer when you don'tget any thanks for your efforts in helping

out, sucks even. Sadly it happens all toooften. Seem most of us get caught up in

our own bubble, I wouldn't think in thiscase that it was anything intentional justmaybe an oversight. The only thing that

matters is the heart you put into what

you do. Seems to me from checking outyour website that you are the go to guywhen it really matters.Some time ago

you took the time to help me out and toget me thinking in the right direction,which I muchly appreciated. When youexplain things you say it clearly in anenglish that is easy to understand,

without the hype. When I'm logged in Ilook forward to reading your stuff. You

have earned my respect and I do thinkyou are highly esteemed by othermembers.n'uff said

Reply

jaystar - 11-01-2011, 08:30 PM Reply


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A great trick I learned as far as gettingrid of the "Fizz" is to use a de-esser onthe most annoying high frequencies. I

also learned a lot from watching the JoeBaressi training DVD for tracking goodelectric guitar sounds. So it might beworth looking into.

PeteWojMusic - 11-01-2011, 11:10 PM

his name is "Ronan Chris Murphy". i'm nottrying to be an over corrective douche oranything. I'm just saying. that would belike me calling you Drury Brandon. ; )

Reply

fHumble fHingaz - 11-02-2011, 08:19 AM

Brandon, this is a cool piece, made better(for me) by the fact that it parallels withwhat I'm mixing at the moment, & somesmall revelations I've had about guitarslately... I've been remixing a track for a

band that a previous mixer (a pro, I

think) had kind of turned into a bigmushy ball of energy - At first listen, Ithought he did a pretty good job, but theband felt the mix lacked definition &

clarity. When I got the raw multi-tracks, Irealized what they were complainingabout - the song had a lot of extra tastystring & piano parts that he simply buried

along with a lot of the emotional intent ofthe song. (the file is up for bashing here,btw: http://forum.recordingreview.com/f76...se-bash-42237/ )As I said, thetrack has a LOT going on, so clearing

away a space for each element was ultra-

important. The overheads were a hugeculprit in the lack of clarity. The drummer

was simultaneously pulverizing & ridingthe crash during the chorus. This meant

that, not only was the high endover-powering, but the high mids weretoo, because that crash was reallylighting up the 3-5k range. Naturally, the

guitars, piano & violins were beingcompletely masked. Obviously, theoverheads needed some drastic thinning,

but the other parts needed attentiontoo...Getting into mixing the track, I had

3 guitar mics to choose from, with boththe clean & distorted guitar tones - they

were: a 421 dynamic, an un-namedribbon, & an un-named tube condenser.In just about every case, (even clean

guitars) the ribbon won the contest.The

other thing that I discovered, was that,as Brandon says, the big boys often havea very interesting approach to guitar

sounds. The band gave some Muse mixesas references, & listening to them reallymade me change my eq decisions. Thistrack: Muse - Resistance - YouTube reallyhighlighted to me that the 1.5 - 2k range

can give you guitars that are really full,but have a pleasing soft top end that

really leaves space in the mix for otherelements. My previous tendency hadbeen to give them a little boost with a

Pultec @ 3k, but this often resulted in aharsh buildup that extended up higher . If

Reply


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you listen to Green Day's American Idiot(yes, very different from Muse) you canhear a similar approach frequency-wise

on the guitars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkmEZs_KcmsThe nett resultis that you can leave that higher rangeopen to really give the mix clarity with

fatigue setting in.I realize most

experienced dudes are probably going"duh!", but I just thought I'd share my

discoveries related to this subject, aboutwhich I discover something new everytime I do a mix.

paul999 - 11-02-2011, 09:22 AM

[QUOTE]

Danny, I love ya man. There is a ton ofreally exciting stuff going on with this and

your help and future help is a critical part

of this. Details are in an email I've sentyou.

Originally Posted byDanny Danzi

Man this place never ceases

to amaze me. I get people

asking me to master stuff

that just don't even reply

back, gave tips and triedmy best to help out around

here...sheesh, I was nuts! I

wonder if this Chris Ronan-

Murphy guy spent 6 hours

with Paul going over this

mix like I did and dropped

what he was doing to

accommodate to help in

real time on the spot? I

helped Paul with all the

important stuff on this mix.

I disagree with the

low-pass on the final mix I

heard. Yep, truth be told,

Paul and I talked on the

phone while I gave my

in-depth help in real time to

a mix Paul sent me that

was in need of work that

launched a near 4 hour

discussion/question and

answer session on how to

fix it all. Next, another 2

hour conversation about the

final mix and how it had

improved and what would

happen from there. Surely

some of the stuff I helped

with remained in the mixand I was at least worthy of

a mention somewhere? I

guess I probably didn't

know what I was talking

about as usual. Balls

man...you got balls. It's all

good though...live and

learn, and learn I have.

On the royer stuff, I think

the problem is the 121. If

Reply


11 23.11.2011 19:0


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The funny thing about the guitars in the

mix in the upcoming video diary is thatone rhythm guitar was recorded with amesa amp and an Sm57 while the other

side was recorded with a Marshall and aribbon mic. When I listen back I can't tell

which is which and couldn't tell you rightnow which side is the ribbon and which is

the sm57.

you get a chance, use the

R-101 next time. I find it

works way better than the

121 because the more

fidelity you get from a mic,

the worse it sounds for a

dirty guitar. Sometimes this

fidelity comes by way of

mud, other times it comes

by way of too much high

end. But don't listen tome...I just talk a good

ballgame and don't have a

clue as to what I'm saying

anyway.

brandondrury - 11-02-2011, 04:34 PM

Oops. Fixed. For what it's worth, peopleusually remember my name being

"Brian".

It's my understanding that ribbons are a

bit slower. I'm not sure if that's the case.

The speed of a mic generally refers to theway it handles high frequency transients,

which is not something you generallyreach for a ribbon for unless you DON'T

want that. The one thing that is trickywith the "mellow" word is you can getguitar tracks that are AGGRESSSSSSSSIVEwith the Royer R121. I think that's whyit's so popular actually. So I'm generally

with you on the "mellow" word, but

guitars are an exception for me....forwhatever reason.

his name is "Ronan Chris

Murphy". i'm not trying to

be an over corrective

douche or anything. I'm just

saying. that would be like

me calling you Drury

Brandon. ; )

I don't think it is only high

end that ribbons roll off,

though, I think the sound is

also mellowed out,

probably because ribbons

tend to smooth out

transients a bit.

A great trick I learned as far

as getting rid of the "Fizz" is

to use a de-esser on themost annoying high

frequencies.

Reply


11 23.11.2011 19:0


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Awesome! I never real ly thought aboutthat. I guess it's just kinda sorta actinglike a multi-band compressor on that one

little band...but that could do the trick.

I've been meaning to pick this up. It

looks great.

I think you did great, Fingaz! You areright, that 2k think does nail the Musesound pretty well.

Well, as I mentioned at the end of the

article, none of this matters if you get thedamn source right.

I also learned a lot from

watching the Joe Baressi

training DVD for tracking

good electric guitar sounds.

So it might be worth

looking into.

This track: Muse -

Resistance - YouTube really

highlighted to me that the

1.5 - 2k range can give you

guitars that are really full,

but have a pleasing soft top

end that really leaves space

in the mix for other

elements. My previous

tendency had been to givethem a little boost with a

Pultec @ 3k, but this often

resulted in a harsh buildup

that extended up higher . If

you listen to Green Day's

American Idiot (

The funny thing about the

guitars in the mix in the

upcoming video diary isthat one rhythm guitar was

recorded with a mesa amp

and an Sm57 while the

other side was recorded

with a Marshall and a

ribbon mic. When I listen

back I can't tell which is

which and couldn't tell you

right now which side is the

ribbon and which is the

sm57.

Danny Danzi - 11-03-2011, 04:06 PM

[QUOTE=paul999;305059]

Danny, I love ya man.

There is a ton of really

exciting stuff going on with

this and your help and

future help is a critical part

of this. Details are in an

email I've sent you.

The funny thing about the

Reply


di 11 23.11.2011 19:0


11/11

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:03 PM.

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No worries....I'm sorry for my reaction to

you, Brandon and the site. It's been a

tough few weeks over here...and Iopened my mouth when I shouldn't have.Please accept my apology all.

-Danny

guitars in the mix in the

upcoming video diary is

that one rhythm guitar was

recorded with a mesa amp

and an Sm57 while the

other side was recorded

with a Marshall and a

ribbon mic. When I listen

back I can't tell which is

which and couldn't tell you

right now which side is theribbon and which is the

sm57.

garww - 11-03-2011, 05:56 PM

"It's my understanding that ribbons are abit slower. I'm not sure if that's the case.The speed of a mic generally refers to theway it handles high frequency transients,

which is not something you generallyreach for a ribbon for unless you DON'T

want that".

I think the key is working the multitude

of design compromises. A ribbon in bothMICs or speakers can be about thequickest dynamic motor available. Theylike to use those ribbons that look like

they were snipped off a quonset hut.

Reply

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