well , it looks like plan b .....

a while back there was a conversation happening about new materials , new techniques, the pressure on the

existing industry , i remember commending greg loehr for being willing to pound the pavement and bring new

materials and concepts to the existing surfboard industry ...

myself , having had my fair share of pounding the pavement and pushing something different , was quite

happy to sit back and watch things change , for better or worse ,,, it wouldnt really affect me coz ive got more

work than i could do in a lifetime .....

so ive decided i can do my bit for an industry that is feeling pressure from many sides ,,, and thanks to

swaylocks i can do it from the comfort of my own small production set up and not have to pound the pavement

.....

what ive got in mind for this thread is showing you guys the principles of vacumn forming and building

custom sandwich boards ...

i know some crew will think its crazy to just give so much away ...

but ive been doing this for so long now that ive pretty much solidified my position in this field ,, i feel i dont

have to hide things anymore , even if plenty of board builders went in this direction , it wont change anything

for me , im not giving everything away , but i will show stuff that i was doing years back and some

construction concepts thatll have some of you foaming at the mouth ...the reality is , its not as easy as people

think , to invent something then make big money from it , ive got to the stage where all i wanna do is go

surfing and enjoy life , every possible way there is to make a dollar from intellectual property always involves

, hard work , more hard work and sacrifices im just not willing to make anymore ,,, lifes just to easy these days

, hanging with the family , going surfing,skating,or sandboarding with the kids , and making a few boards each

week ,, so if im just gonna sit on this knowledge and do nothing with it , then i might as well pitch in and help

out with what i know ....and if any of you guys run with it and incorporate it into a production , just remember

me , where you got it , and maybe give me a mention ....

for me thats a way nicer scenario then having to deal with corporate bullies who just wanna cut you out the

picture , or run with your ideas claiming they own it , coz they have the money to say what they want ...at the

end of all this i might get some better offers or opportunities , you never know ???

i know the asian production houses can benefit from some of this stuff , but the ones that will benefit most will

be the custom board builders , coz as it stands at the moment surftech have surged into an open market with no

competition ....companies like salomon and surftech have set a benchmark pricing structure , but none of them

can deliver true customability , so already you should be able to see a margin there , plus a competitive edge

.....

this guy is overseas , but the amount of crew who i see in the water and who come to the factory , who are so

bummed out coz they dont want to wait a year for a board , but end up being forced to ride second rate

equipment coz they have no other choice ...

i know there are the knockers out there , but they only knock coz they cant compete ,,, so they figure, better

write off the emerging technology to save there own arses .....

another motivation for doing this thread is to show cobra that they dont have all the answers ...

at the end of this thread itll be common knowledge how to make a pvc custom sandwich board ,,,,

but cobra will still have no idea about how i do my woodies and how i get the results i do ....

thatll basically end there assumption that there leading the way in surfboard construction technology .....

ive got everything i need in stock now to build this board , i said i was going to sell it , but i might keep it for

myself , i wanna try something different with the outer glass job ,,,...

theres so many variations with the vacumn forming technique , mr j did a thread a while back , bluejuice does

sandwich work as well ,, so if you guys wanna pitch in with some photos that show variations , feel free ,,

especially the rails ....if anyone has questions along the way ,jump in and ask ....

im going to build this board around my current work schedule so it wont happen over night ...

ill show the cheapest easiest way of doing each stage , plus ill show a few pics if you wanna step it up and go

for a long term production set up , the type of equipment and tools youll need to build more ....

ok i will start this baby tommorow ...

the truman show starts soon ....

one of the ingredients ....

well i cant believe it ...

i ripped into this after work today , and still managed 20 photos in the first session , ill just have to pace the

shots and put a few in on the days im not working on the board ....ok .....

first things first ...

the bag ... i was going to buy some clear plastic from the hardware store , but i had an old bag laying around , i

cut it down and retaped it ,, the general idea , is make a big plastic bag big enough for your board and your

support ....

once youve made a bag , youll need to connect a hose to it ...

i went fossicking around and found this ,,, a peice of radiator hose and the back up pad from a sander ...

the general idea is a hose bonding solidly to a flat plate so you can mount the connection to the bag ....

ok next step ,, using the multi purpose adhesion stripping (2" masking tape ) have to try and make it seem

complicated ...join the hose and plate , cut a small hole near the open end of the bag , say 30 cms away from

the opening ...

tape hose support base to bag ...

your pump ...

realistically , the pump will be the biggest investment , i got this little baby 11 or 12 years ago and it still cost

me $1,000.00 back then ,, this one is called an ov4 , its a carbon vaned pump , it clears 4 cubic meters an hour ,

you could vacumn 2 boards at once with this as long as your bags were in mint condition , it can pull up to - 75

kpa or 11 psi ...i remember at the time , that paying a grand for this baby felt like a big step , coz prior to this i

was using vacumn cleaners , which were between 30 and 50 dollars from the secondhand shop .. they would

burn out and i would get another one ...

one day a vacumn cleaner burnt out while i was doing a mal , the job was beyond salvation , i was already

using my wifes cleaner coz mine had burnt out days earlier ,,i couldnt get a replacement at short notice,,,, after

2 blowouts in quick succession and losing a whole board , the costs started to justify them selves ...i had one

previous vacumn cleaner last me 3 years , they do work, but i had built a frame to exagerate the vacumn and

was using it mainly for doing timber decks on polyester boards back then , when i made the switch to

production epoxy sandwich , a vacumn cleaner just didnt handle being on for such long periods ....

like others have said on other threads ,, look around , things like milking pumps , refridgerator vac pumps ,

other stuff does work thats not so expensive ,, also the cost of new pumps has come down in the last decade as

well , like digital watches ,,, once 300 dollars , now 2 dollars ....

heres the production baby .....in its own outbuilding outside , i have a 40 m3 per hour pump , connected via a

pipe through the wall to an evacuation chamber , then 5 seperate outlets , tapped and gauged ....

back when i was running some serious production , i had a t piece off each outlet , combined with a process

where we could bag 2 boards back to back in one bag , i could vacumn up to 16 boards at one time ,, 1 valve

was left solo for other purposes , which probably wont get discussed for a few years , till some of you guys

start experimenting ....

you can see the top gauge is my tank pressure , that will determine the most pressure you can run for any job

....ive got 3 jobs running now while i took this photo ,, one at - 20 kpa another at - 40 kpa and the last equalling

tank pressure at - 80 kpa ,,,,

the pump can pull - 100 kpa , but when your running 3 jobs and 2 are being purposely bled for resin transfer ,

it starts to drain the system a bit ....

its an oil vaned pump , the main pump is immersed in oil so air cant escape back through the system ....

ive connected the spare hose to a permanent bag on top of the tank , mainly to show the bag ....

its solid plastic , the stuff they use for annexes and outdoor restaurants , its been plastic welded to seal it , a bag

can be up to $200.00 ...

in the early days i used bagging tube , taped off the ends , i usually got about 10 vac jobs out of one bag , it

was cheap only about 10 cents a meter ..

but there was time involved in making a new bag every 5 boards , retaping and changing connections ,, then

there was the drama of chasing holes in the bags when they got worn before you got frustrated and changed the

bag ...

so if your doing more , it ends being way more economical to have permanent bags ,, one of my first

permanent bags is still running , its probably done 900 maybe 1000 vac jobs and still going strong ...ok

i will leave it there for today ...

the good stuff comes tommorow ....

this is my setup:

no 4 on the table. But until I complete this one thats all i have time for right now, so I'll leave you to finish this

thread and watch before adding any more detail of what i do

well i dono how much im gonna add tonight ???

so surfed out at the moment , i can hardly raise my hands to type ...

ok preparation time ...below is some of the basic ingredients for the first stage ,, the board im making is a 6-8

....so ive got a 6-9 blank . i dont want to use the 6-9 rocker so im pressing it onto a 7-3 rocker block ...i have

my contour mat ....

im cutting the rails out of 12mm h 60 divinycell ,i place my 7-3 rocker template onto the divinycell and trace

bottom curve , cut with a razor , then clean up with a sanding block , then using that tool that holds a pencil

and allows you to follow a curve at a set distance (whats it called??), draw another line 30 + mm in ,following

your bottom curve ,, cut it off and repeat the process ...i havent built boards like this for a while , but when i

did i would use one sheet of divinycell for each rocker style , that helped minimise waste ...

ok , so the rails are cut , next get your blank , mark the outline and cut it just like a conventional board , using a

planer attachment make sure your outline is 90 degrees to your bottom ...

below is a picture of something i call a contour mat , with out saying to much , the introduction of this concept

, allowed me to discover principles which have made it possible to leap to another level ....this particular mat

was still collecting dust , im glad i still had a few laying around ,,, the one pictured here is my single blending

into a double inside a single concave mat ....

in the past , people would come in and ask if i did normal boards to???? i would ask what they wanted as far as

shape ... if i already had a bottom contour mat matching what they wanted , i would tell them to see the guy up

the road , im not interested in making boards that self destruct , but if they requested a shape that i didnt have a

contour mat for , i would yield and build it for them , so i could rip an imprint off the bottom of there board ...

next is a pic of the rocker bed , a piece of flexible sheeting , but not to flexible , my contour mat taped to the

middle of the sheeting ,,, and a piece of 3mm divinycell with dry glass laying on it....

now ive mixed up 150 grams of epoxy , ive rolled up and folded my glass into a neat package , then placed it

in my tub and wet it through ....

the divinicell is sitting on the rocker bed/flexible sheet/contour mat , ive got the glass and strained it out so its

quite dry then i rolled it out and flatten it down with a sweegee

once your glass is smoothed out onto the d cell , place your outlined blank in the centre of your bed making

sure it lines up with centre lines , then using excess resin lightly brush the rails ...

next , grab your precut h 60 rail sections and place them down , pinch them together at the nose and tape

around the front of the nose to hold them ,,(i had previously sanded the tips of the rail pieces so when they

meet at the nose they line up and come together ) do the same for the tail ...dont worry about how the rails sit ,

the bag takes care of that ... then some tape over the top at each end so the board doesnt move while you put it

in the bag

now load the whole lot into your bag ,,, now the next step is vital ....

get some shade cloth , bubble plastic or tontine ,,, something that allows air to move through it ,,, if you dont

have this , you connection will suck to the job and block itself off , you gauge will read mach pressure and

your bag will be loose ,, the mesh spreads the vacumn and stops the opening of your hose from sealing it self

off ...the larger the mesh the better it works ,,, i have permanent rocker beds with the whole flat side covered in

mesh , my permanent bags also have mesh stuck on the inside of the hose plate ,,, that stops any loose items ,

pieces of foam going down your hose and blocking the system up ....

often people ask me questions like , can i shape a board from eps then get you to vacumn on a skin for me ???

thats almost impossible i say ...

what makes vacumn forming and bagging complicated is when you think in terms of conventional

construction ,,, that then acts as a constraint to what you can do with the bag ...

you can bag before you shape , in fact as you will soon see if you havent already worked it out you can use

your bag to shape ....

this process is more of a shaping tool then a glassing tool , its a bit of both ...

if the shaper doesnt do this , then he has to work very closly with the person doing the bagging ,, i had 1 guy

do this for me for 8 years , we worked closely as a team between us we could put out 20 boards a week and

still go surfing ,, i would often work back at night and load his bay with outlines and deck shapes ,, that would

buy me time for a surf ,,, the guy was an elf ,, he would appear at some insane hour in the morning , have em

bagged and baked and loaded back in my bay before i even got to work the next day ,, im looking at a whole

bay full of work to do , as hes laughing while tieing his boards on the roof to go surfing ...

our little , try to swamp the other guy with work game , was good for production , while it lasted ......

ok thats me for another day ...

im hitting the hay .. should be waves again tommorow ....

this is old sckool for me now , thats why i dont mind passing it on , but these techniques , really opened the

doors to me ,in the sense of leading me to another level ...so i figure it should get some of you guys out there

up to speed and at least competitive with moulded imports ...

i get frustrated when i see millions getting pumped into the development of new technologies , coz the guys

spending the money have no idea how far behind they really are ...im not knocking development , but from my

perspective i see grand claims getting made through the media , i think to myself , "man thats gonna cost them

" i see dodgy product getting released and unsuspecting buyers lap it up only to get burnt ...anyway ill leave

that one there .. ive got plenty to say on that subject ,, that could be another thread ....

yea john , there is so many possibilities with vac forming , and completly customisable ....

before i continue ill answer your questions glenn ....

yep 1/8 h 80 bottom , 1/2 h 60 rails ....

that glass is 2 oz e , this board will be for me so im milking it all the way , if it was a guy off the street it would

be 4 oz e ,,, not that i would build a board this way for someone ,, this is purely a swaylocks dedicated project ,

to familiarise everyone with vacumn forming ....

as far as foam v balsa rails for stiffness ,,,,

your deck and bottom skins do most of the work as far as stiffness , thats why i havent done wood rails im

trying to make it flexier to counteract the thicker sandwich ....plus i dont want to show how i do my rails ...

i will lose spring tho , by not using wood , thats why its going to be a super small wave groveler designed to be

surfed flat in soft mush ...

you can do all of that stuff you mentioned , it will depend on the overall thickness of your rails and board in

general as to how much or little flex/stiffness you want or desire ....by moving layers around you can really

achieve so many different characteristics in performance and not even have to change the shape ...

thats why i want more people to understand sandwich construction , so then finnally crew will understand why

my shapes work so well even tho they shouldnt if appraised by conventional wisdom ...

ok back to the subject ,,, now youll notice the whole job in the bag , bag taped for a seal and the rail pieces

sitting wide and high nothing is where its supposed to be ...

ok i cheated a bit , i didnt use the little pump ,,,,my big pump was running and i had a spare connection , so i

hooked it up to the radiator hose on the bag ...now you can see the bag has pulled vacumn , everything is tight

and pressed against everything else , the bag has formed the rails tightly against the blank , the blank and rails

are being pressed tightly against the wet d cell im running about -30 kpa which is 300 grams of pressure for

every cm2 , so this job being about 2 meters x half a meter ,, means its recieving about 3 tons of weight spread

evenly over the job holding everything in place ....

heres the whole job being pressed , you see the rocker bed doing its job ,, in the first place the rocker is

computer designed , your off cut simply becomes the bed to ensure you have the correct rocker ,,, even if you

dont get your foam cumputer hotwired , its important to keep the offcut in good condition if your home

hotwiring ...its also possible to use the opposite offcut ,the deck one , if you use that one you can customshape

a bottom before adding your d cell , itll take a bit more work to get your rails on cleanly , plus you have to be

very careful when bagging the deck , coz you cant use the bottom bed in the same manner ...

its funny ive got all this stuff in the back ground i dont want seen , so if you see the same backgrounds from

different angles its because im moving blanks around in the background as coverups , coz im working in my

vac form room , if you saw some of the background stuff and these basic principles , im sure a few crew in

similar fields would put 2 and 2 together ....dont want any snakes and frogs looking in ,,, hehe .....

ok now its the next morning ,, board out the bag all the pieces locked together ...

now its into the shaping bay , rip off the excess d cell with the jigy , and clean up the outline with a sanding

block ...

heres another angle on the single into double in a single ....without taking one stroke with a tool ....if i was still

building boards this way , i could put that exact same concave on any board , length, width , outline , or rocker

...hows that for keeping control of your variables ...

and this was long before shaping machines were even invented in polyurethane construction ....from working

with these concepts in the past , its showed me how valuable a shaping machine is as a learning tool , because

without control of your variables , its mostly random guesswork and chasing your tail around trying to isolate

particular performance enhancing characteristics ,,, it can be done its just takes a lot longer ,,, i suppose its

typical that the early board builders even tho they learnt about shape , it just took alot longer and it was harder

than it would be for a new modern day shaper to grasp the same principles of design because of having access

to computer aided designing tools and shaping machines , plus still being able to consult the early board

builders as well ...

so all you young up and comings out there have got it made from a learning perspective ....

and here comes the shape ,,,

traditionally , its near on impossible to shape a piece of 3/4 lb eps , its just like shaping a floppy sponge , but

now you have something rigid with the h60 rails and bottom already pressed on ...

ive fully scooped out the deck ,under my feet would be barely an inch thick ,,, this contruction allows you to

explore shapes which are impossible in conventional construction ,,,so now a whole new world of shapes

opens up as well and more effective ways of designing specific boards without having to make comprimises

on shape because of being locked into design parameters , which are bound by current construction techniques

,,, how high can a 36 year old 100 kilo surfer boost , when your average grom is struggling for speed in the

same waves ???

below is a quote from a 40 year old plus surfer , hes working with similar principles and dimensions , also

breaking ground with variables of a unique nature based on common concepts ....

ok i will leave it there ,,, this board is in the bag at the moment having the deck pressed on , so theres more to

go now , but i will save it for tomorrow

ok guys i see some questions ,, i will answer any at the end ,, as most of them get answered as we go ,, i

already see some clever deductions being made , and its yes to most of them ....

ok so youve seen the shaped deck , once thats done , lay your board deck down on a sheet of divinycell and

trace around your board , then cut out the shape with a blade ....

so now you lay glass on your d cell , cut to shape and put some extra patches in the heavy traffic areas ...

now do your resin work directly onto the d cell ,, for the whole bottom which was a rectangle i used 150 grams

of resin ,,,but just for the deck with less area and working directly onto the d cell i used 240 grams ... the foam

sucks extra resin , but that helps support the deck better ...

now , get your wet sheet of d cell and place it on your deck , a few bits of masking tape to keep it in place so it

doesnt move as your sliping it into the bag ..because the bottom contours are already pressed into the bottom

of my board , at this stage its possible to press them out again if you dont support the shape youve made , so

while its not visible , the contour mat is taped to the bottom of the board ... this time around you dont need the

firm flexible sheeting underneath the board ,, that was only there to ensure the whole contour mat lefts it

imprint in the bottom of the board ,, without a hard base behind the contour mat , you would get a softened

version of your contour mat as half the mat would get pressed into your rocker support bed , which is only soft

foam ....

this is your last chance to do any rocker tweaks or curve modifications ,,, in this case im pressing a 6-8 onto a

7-3 block so i want a little more cosmetic nose flip , just a simple wedge under the nose will do that ...

once this layer is formed down and resin sets , the curves will be set in concrete , no way you can change

anything after that , at the moment the board still has enough flex to be pulled into a slightly different curve ...

as an example , if you get a few sheets of veneer or paper cardboard or even playing cards , bend them into a

curve , then press tightly at the ends as if youd glued them together and try to bend them the other way ,, for

something to flex it needs some shear movement , you can glue 2 flat sheets of something together and it will

still move a bit and spring back to its original shape a bit , but glue 3 sheets together and it stays that way

forever ....

now its back in the same bag , under vac ,,, you can clearly see the deck being pulled tight onto the board and

the board being tightly pressed into the bed

heres another angle on that wedge under the nose tweaking the nose rocker ..

now its out the bag every thing is set , the deck skin is still a little messy , at this stage its ready for a tail piece

to be added , unless youre doing a super tight pin , most of the time the tail section needs to be added later ,

you can see ive cut my tail ready to add some d cell ...now its quite clear where everything is as far as cross

section is concerned ...

heres the finished shape ....

and another angle ...

ready for some glass ,,i ended up spraying it on the bottom only on the flat , so the cross section of bottom skin

d cell is still visible and the green rails and joins will all be visible ... i was going to put fabric over it,, but the

industrial look started growing on me , so i thought id let it all be obvious in the finished thing ...

heres the deck , with finished shaped tail block (thanks halycon for the tail shape inspiration ).. you guys know

the rest from here.....

ok thats it ....

here comes some numbers and facts ...

firstly the weight and statistics ...

the board is 6-8 x 22 x ? ,,i havent even measured it , i knew what i wanted and when it looked right that was

ok for me ...

the board currently weighs before glassing 1263 grams ....

if it was a standard urethane blank using the lightest urethane possible , these same dimensions would be 1900

grams plus ... and thats being generous ...

if you glassed a urethane blank of that weight with 4oz bottom and 2x 4oz deck , youd pretty much have a

disposable board youd be pushing 3 months out of ....

where as the board i have here cant even be pressure dented with my thumbs in the stage its in now before

glassing , when i do press it it just springs back ,,, so what that means is , it will get glassed with 1 layer of 2oz

on the bottom and 1 layer of 4 on the deck , so the finished weight in the water and surfing will be about the

same as a superlight disposable urethane blank with 1 layer of 4 oz on the bottom unfinished before the deck is

even glassed ...

and on top of that , if it didnt handle a couple of years of constant abuse id be surprised ...

here youll have a board lighter than what any current pro would be riding , lighter than any surftech or

salomon ,,, and it wont snap in a hurry because the core is soft enough to let the top and bottom move past

each other in a shearing motion ,, where as the surftechs allow there cores to be penetrated with resin making

them brittle and snappable , plus making the outer skin work harder which means small dents will still appear

under the feet ...

and the salomons are running a cored skin that is to thick making it stiff , and on top of that the skin material is

to light so it cant support an outer glass job without folding under the front foot on any decent floater landing

or solid bottom turn ....

now the price ...

theres less shaping work to be done than a conventional handshaped p/u ,,,

the blank was 150 in materials ,, theres less work in the bagging stage than glassing a conventional board ,, so

if you were paying someone to bag , it would probably be the same rate as what a laminator would make ,,,

so you may add 100 aud to the price , but the reality is a urethane shortboard in oz can be anywhere from 400

to 700 dollars ...a poorly moulded surftech fetches 795 , not custom , not made for performance ... a salomon is

1400 ....

a board of this nature in oz , anyone would pay 1000 ,, see some margins there????

plus now youve all got the upper hand over all the profile brands on the market , mainly salomon and

surftech....

so after 15 years of r&d this is my legacy to the surf industry ....

and the best part is if you guys have been blown away by this , you would freak big time if you knew what i

build for a living , my techniques and strength to weight ratios on my current production boards ....

just talking randy french for a minute ...

i dont know the history of surftech , whether or not he ever tried to get it off the ground in the west through the

existing industry ,, so there could be other reasons it ended up being made in thailand ,, maybe randy can fill

us in ...

but the reality is randy has exposed alot of people to the concept of sandwich construction ...

so im grateful to randy for that because , its given me some exposure and credability for the work ive been

doing all these years ...all of a sudden im not branded as an eccentric anymore and given the label obtuse ...

at last more people are experiencing first hand the performance differences in different materials ,,, for me now

the last few years have been a real buzz , having long time critics at last come up and say " wow so you were

right for all those years "....

if you look at the real reasons why this technology has been so slow in getting to the industry ,, youll see a

handful of players supressing technology breakthroughs and putting up there own version of anti eps epoxy

propaganda ...

so another bonus for me is the crew who actually made it hard for me to get access to the materials and

purposely tried to belittle the advantages of this contruction through blatant propaganda , are now in a position

to actually get nothing out of this construction style ....

appart from guys like greg loehr , you wont need to deal with any conventional surfboard material wholesalers

, theyve basically cut them selves out the market by not embracing the new ideas as they were introduced ...im

sorry to say , i forsee a time when a urethane blank will be considered redundant technology and grommets

will say " check out the old skooler on that peice of junk"...

again , to me it shows that guys like greg were thinking ahead ,, in the sense of moving in the direction of

wholesaling refined epoxy resins and offering alternatives .....

thats me ...

im off surfing , more refinement and r&d is calling me .....

ps , you guys at salomon , if you want some real breakthrough stuff and you reckon your reputation is worth

salvaging ,,, then you know what to do next time around ....whats that movie with the french karate guy ???

wrong bet ,or something like that ???

my purpose for doing this thread was to show the principals of vac forming ,whats possible and how you

knock off 30 to 50 % off the weight and add 5 to 10 times the life expectancy to your board ...

i hear so many complaints about surfboards and how weak they are , well now its all here , the amount of

information delivered in one hit , each picture and stage shows alot ...

once more crew work out whats possible , and the ammount of combinations that can be achieved , then

finnally crew will appreciate what else can be achieved ...

because people will still be questioning how i get my current results ...

the board i showed you is still heavier and weaker with less performance than what i do now ..

but what i do is so far removed from current surfboard making techniques , that unless i showed some basics ,

everyone would continue to treat it as a novelty and put it in the to hard basket ....

at least now youve got somewhere to start ...

i reckon for what ive showed corecell is a better option ....

the secret to performance sandwich is shear movement , something that can bend along way and not fail is the

key...

polywaffle versus crunchie ....

once more guys step into the playing field then well have more to talk about ....

right now , just go do the ideas that your thinking ....

hey bluejuice .. i was wondering if you would show how you do your d cell rail wraps ??

the biggest reason i ran in the parabolic rail direction in the first place was both a performance one , and

having trouble wrapping a tight surfboard rail , with either timber , other foams or purpose built sandwich

skins ...

surely you must have sections of sailboard rail that get as tight as a surfboard ???

another question , that core in one of your pics looked blue , or was it just the light or that blue filler they use

for boats ???

its ok waaahoo , it wasnt for my benefit , i made that comment for others benifit , so everyone might get

another variation on sandwich construction ...i know how to bend it now , but when i first strated playing with

it i didnt , thats what lead me to rail stringers , so im kinda glad that at the time i didnt work out how to wrap it

, coz that opened up some new doors ...

ahhh , now it makes sense , when i was looking at the pictures you sent me , i thought "what the hell is the

spacer for ?" but the fact your using a rocker bed as well , you need clearance for the d cell wrap...

yea i was using the dow foam at one stage under sandwich skins ...

i can see the benifit for a sailboard ...

the biggest problem with xtr is it has poor shear properties , but in a thicker sail board which is sandwiched it

wouldnt be flexing as much so it wont fatigue like it would in a surfboard...

i found in the surfboards using xtr i couldnt get them light enough without having to reduce the thickness of

the skins , they then got back to the point where the flex was then shearing the foam again ,,, at the end of it all

i was at the point where , when i was finnally happy with the structual integrity of the board , it was to heavy ,

and a little to stiff... i reasoned i might as well sell a guy a waterloged eps , coz it was about the same weight ...

so while the end product was more problem free in xtr , it lacked the magic of a new or properly cared for eps

...

i can really see the benifits with running skinned xtr in sailboards ,,, in surfboards , needing them way thinner

and flexier meant to many comprimises for me ...

even tho i never did a big chunky surfboard in xtr ,, i reckon it would work well doing it your way in big

volume surfboards , where someone isnt looking for that flex , and just wants a nice big floaty light strong

wave getter ....

hey pinhead , im not sure what you were thinking inregards to running perimeter stringers combined with a

centre stringer ,,, it works ok if its not a sandwich board ,,, if you do all that stringering and a sandwich , you

end up with something , that feels every bump and feels more at home in supersmall clean waves ...

if you wanted clarification on the perimeter stringers versus centre stringer ...

the outline stringers will allow more lengthways flex , but less rail twisting under load , also when under load

will give kind of a load limiting feel where they only let your board twist so far then when you back off that

load itll spring out with more force ....

the centre stringer will not have as much lengthways flex , but will allow the rail to twist off further ....

hey john , ive never seen the video , but what brennan mentioned all makes sense ...if you dont mind mowing

excess foam , then a rocker table that is adjustable , allows you to use flat sheets of foam and just press them

into shape ...

youd be surprised how many different rockers you can build with a handful of beds and wedge inserts then a

sheet of ply laying over the top to smoothe the curve ,,,

sometimes if i want to try a variation of a rocker and i want it exact , and i want to know where every mm of

curve is , i just order 1 blank then i get a new rocker bed included ,, if the rocker was no good well i still got

the blank , and the extra wastage of only getting 1 blank in a block might have cost me an extra 15 dollars ....

these are cheap easy solutions to some of your questions ...

also dont forget every time you get blanks you get a new bed , i have customers who may have a certain board

which is a discontinued rocker , no problem coz all the rockers ive ever used are on file at the foam cutters , i

just ring and say i want 1 x 8 gun v-1 fitted in with the other 4 x 8 gun v-3 flat all in the one block , make sure

you put the v-1 as the bottom blank so i get the bed ...

hey daddio , eps does suck water , but the fact the water has to get through glass , your sandwich then another

layer of glass means your core is fairly well insulated , plus with the right procedure its easy to get water out if

you should hole through all that ....

performance is the biggest factor behind eps ,, maximun shear movement without failing ....

eps allows everything to move , so you can optimise the characteristics of whatever structure your using ...

glenn you posted a good link the same as the one john posted as well , some good information on that site as

far as general overviews of the different processes, the net composites one ...

i thought it was interesting , coz i see people quoting certain methods as the way you would do a certain

technique ,,,

but in reality once you move into this method of construction so many other possibilities open up that you

could resin transfer, infuse , then autoclave all in the one operation , or any combination of those techniques

together ....

or even purposely allow air to enter a resin transfer operation so the resin bubbles and becomes foamy , giving

it greater bulk without the weight ....

theres a whole new world in there ....

which is not that out of reach for the custom board builder ...

1 - Do you vacuum pack the hotcoat?

2 - Do you need a vent?

3 - Do you spray on to the divinycell or do art after you've glassed?

4 - How many points do you give to the eps cutters to cut the rocker?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 - that depends on what techniques you figure out ...

2 - that depends on how much resin you allow into the core , if you saturate the core , then no , if you want

maximum shear movement and good performance then yes ....

3 - up to you , you can even tint and pigment ... core cell is better in that regard for finish ...

4 - ask them what they need ....

yep thats right about the large scrap grinders , the polystyrene companies recycle a percentage of munched up

off cuts and put it back into new foam ....

i cant remember the percentage , but there is a maximum allowable limit by law of how much recycled stuff

they can legaly put back in ....

ok , on your marks ,get set ,GO ....

im curious to see what you guys come up with , judging by some of the emails and messages ive had , a few

are jumping in the deep end and taking a leap of faith ....

have fun exploring ..

i was thinking a custom s core for my next thread , but with a full eps core for more support ...

but if i do it , i need another hotwire cutter...unless salomon want to donate a few 10 mm sheets for the project

???

thats a fair trade in exchange for a few pointers hey guys ... thats a little cheaper than plowing through 12 mill

...

stoked dave ....

you took the plunge ,, i know we spoke like 10 years ago , back then you wanted to get into vac bagging ,, but i

was probably somewhat elusive with my answers ..

in fact for years i would give ridiculous answers to questions , just to throw people off the scent ...

im sure if you had any specific questions these days , i would give you the real story and point you in the right

direction ....

im not really into the business keep the competitive edge situation anymore ...

im into enjoying life and building a few boards to support my leisure activities ....

so just give us a hoy if you need anything dave ...

looks like some action going down at your place tonight , if i jumped in my car now i should get there in about

4 days ,, so better not wait up for me ....

hey pinhead , your summary of flex versus stiffness and some of the other variables was pretty good ...

with perimeter stringers you get proportionatly more flex as you get closer to the middle in comparison to a

conventional stringered board ,, or in reverse it gets stiffer as you get closer to the nose and tail with perimeter

stringers ...

thats where the horisontal stringer comes in , it gives the middle a little more support under heavy load , so

now you can get that snappy twang from more front foot oriented moves , especially as the boards get longer ,

when they would normally feel floppy ....

see ,,, 100 kg or 220 lb , standing on a rockered performance 8' mal and it can still support my weight in the

middle without hitting the floor ...not bad for a board that weighs 7 lb or 3.2 kilo ...and is 2 3/8 thick ,,,see the

1" increments drawn on the foam block ....

this man is a surfboard builder , so we cant show you his face on tv ....

sabs !!! that looks hot .. and the weight is good ..

i can guarantee , that not 1 pro would have a 7' board that light made out of pe/pu ....

what youve done there , was show just how real and how achievable doing a vac formed board can be ...

im impressed ...

you did well with the fins ...

for a second board , that was hot ...

man keep em coming like that and ill be trying to talk you into putting sunova stickers on them and reping in N

Z ...

i think youll turn a few heads , showing that you can build something like that in your first few attempts ....

once again well done sabs ...

hey sabs , how did you finish your tail off ???

if this helps , i make a large laminated block , then i cut sections out of it and stick it to the tails ,and noses on

longboards then i can just shape the wood ..

the tails get alot of punishment , so it helps with the knocks with an eps core ...

yea thats no problem gray ,, i think i even mentioned it further up the thread or it could have been on another

one???

if you have a good bed , a flat blank will work fine ,, ive used that same system with sheets of xtr before ...

having the blanks cut to size , means you get a new bed with every new rocker you design , plus you wont

have to mow as much foam ....

if your doing it for a living , the time you save offsets the few extra dollars ...

that will all work fine , you may get a little spring back with one side formed on , but once both skins are

vacumned on it wont spring back at all ....

hey guys another update on the vac board ...

its glassed and been waiting for fins for like a week and a half ...

i wanted superlight fins ,, was thinking about using my fin system , but that would be almost 20% of the

weight of this board , plus the wood fins and boxes would look out of place on this board ...

so i got some 12mm d cell foiled some nice full small wave fins , then glassed with tooling urethane ...

check out the weights ..

on the scales are one 7mm thick red x fin at 122 grams ..

then 3 foam cored urethane fins at 12mm plus weighing 119 grams ...

im going to do glass ons .. my goal is keep the board under 5.5 lbs , ive only got 250 grams left up my sleeve

,,,, i blew it , coz the board was so wide i didnt have any 4 oz big enough to wrap when laminating the deck ,

so i used 6 oz , i reckon i lost 200 grams plus just doing that ....

post finished weight and dimensions eventually ...

when i get some work done , instead of letting the kids talk me into sandboarding ....

regards

BERT

hey sabs looking forward to the fins ...

im working on something at the moment , no screws or pins , just clip in and out ...

screws and threads are a hassle , plus it means you can clip out your fins to paddle over shallow reef , just put

em down your wet suit ....

hey glenn . the contour mat isnt really needed ...

its just a quick easy way of reproducing bottom contours on any board , with out the need of a highly skilled

craftmen or shaping machine ....

what mrj and sabs said is right ...

you can still shape bottom contours and still use a bed as well tho ...

use your deck off cut , cut the outline in your board , shape the bottom , then press your flat unshaped deck

against the deck off cut acting as a bed while your forming on your bottom skin , with a bit of jigging you can

still put your rails on at the same time , its just takes a bit more planning ....

when you go to form the deck on , do it mrj's way , by bagging and then placing the whole job on your bed and

weighting it down .....

fiished pics of that board by the end of the week , i finish coated one side today ...

ready soon ...

divinycell doesnt compare to balsa for strength ...

gives a dead ride as well in comparison ....

the only reason i used d cell in the vac forming thread was to show the principals involved , plus having a

super light version of each construction , my customers can clearly see which one is better ....

d cell is more suited to production , readily available , known size and density ...

even tho i have a great balsa supplier , there is still a huge amount of variation in density and grain ,,, so while

i can get good consistency with my methods .. every now and then a magic board pops out because all the right

pieces of wood came together for that board ...

it certainly is a con indeed ...

less wood , less soul ...

wood gives the board a feeling of being alive and in tune with the rider ...

even tho i might make sandwich variations for different customers ...

the day i stop riding balsa over eps will be the day ive found something better ...

and for the last 13 years i havent found it ....

ok heres a few pics of the sandwich board in the thread ...

i havent finished it yet , i was supposed to cut it back and polish it today but i ran out of time ,, i wont be

posting for a few days , so i thought i would show a few pics of the nearly finished article , i did a simple

colour job to highlight the natural features of the board ,, ive never been much of an artist in the sense of

artwork and colour ... but it suits me ...

finish and surf it next week , not that happy with the weight ...

2.7 kg or 5.94 lb , explain my mistakes later ...even tho its heavier than i wanted it its still at least 800 grams or

nearly 2 lb lighter than the lightest possible p/u p/e combo , only difference is , its about 10 times stronger , i

can squeeze as hard as i want and cant pressure dent it ....

how could you go back to something that dents every time you look at it , self destructs with use , and decays

with water and sunlight , surfs like a wet sponge and starts to feel lifeless with age as fatigue sets in ....

it certainly is a con my friends ...

there is this mentality that if the best surfers in the world are using it , it must be good ...

WOW!!!!! i just realised why board builders have to give boards to pro surfers ...

if they didnt get them for free , they certainly wouldnt buy them if they had a choice of buying something

lighter and stronger ...

of coarse you would ride something you have an endless supply of , even if its free , rather than pay for

something that will perform better ...

whats the real cost tho???

a potential world title ???

its only a matter of time ...

the cats out of the bag .....

ok here it is ...

the finished pics...

2 posts worth of pics..

and thats the finished weight...

i ended up making a few mistakes that i just couldnt make up for in the long run ...

the most cricial one was when i glassed the deck on the outside ,,, coz the board is 22" plus wide , i didnt have

any 4oz around wide enough ...so i glassed in 6oz ..

i lost a fraction of weight there ..

but because i was conscience of making it heavier , i strained my deck to much ...

that was the biggest mistake , i ended up getting heaps of pinholes on the deck glass job ...

after i sanded the board it weighed 2486 grams ...

but when i finish coated the deck , it all started going wrong ..

i kept loading the clear on so all the pinholes would be filled , after i loaded it with 2pac it weighed over 2900

....

i should have sanded the lot off , but i didnt want to respray the artwork ...

as you can see i still managed to cut a fair bit from the 2pac finish , but because of the artwork , i was babying

it so i wouldnt burn through into my artwork on the deck ...

i could have knocked another 200 grams from this weight had i just gone the 4 oz in the first place ...

but hey thats life ...

hey louis ...

any contour is possible ...

it just takes planning ..

yea john , balsa is definatly my preference as far as performance , plus strength to weight ratios ...

ive probably used about 45 to 60 different timbers at a guess over the years ...

my opinion is balsa , western red cedar and fiji cedar , give the best strength to weight and performance of the

timbers ive tried ...

i havent used pualonia or bamboo ..

both which also seem to have potential ....

with the pvc skins , the weight is almost as good as my woodies , but the ride is different ...

a little weaker in the denting department with pvc , theres something about the timing of the flex return with

wood that justs makes it feel that bit more natural under your feet in comparison to the pvc version , even tho

the weights are similar ....

enjoy ...

happy hunting ...

its cat season ....

colour is on the foam on the bottom and glass on the deck ...

theres no way those fins are to light performance wise ,, positive bouyancy in your fins cant be beaten ...

they may be to light strength wise ..

but i doubt it ...

i used to make carbon fins in a small autoclave i had ,, 60 grams for the set ...

i was gonna post a pic ,, but the upload icon didnt load on this page ?? weird ...

hey keith...

as far as thickness anything goes ..

depending on your methods and how much you sand off to get your final shape ...

ive used from 1mm to 9mm and all those boards are still in use ..

going thinner or thicker both have advantages and disadvantages ,,, 1/8th is a safe start ...

there will be certain problems that everyone will encounter going down the sandwich road , those problems

have made most of the other explorers give up and go back to standard construction ...

pinholes, venting, delamination and shear failure ...

all these problems are perfectly solvable ...you may not have the patience to go through a series of boards

before you get the bugs out ..

the thicker wood you use the less chance you will encounter those problems ...

but then theres a performance trade off , the thinner you get the wood the better , but you get into the problem

zone ..

so while im not trying to steer people away from sandwich , its more a case of be prepared to deal with a little

pain here and there ,, and if your concerned about finance and doing things on the cheap , then that could be an

issue as well ...

oneula !! one of the biggest problems with putting different layers together without glass between them is

getting an even spread of resin or glue , it can actually end up lighter to use a fabric between every layer ,

because you can wet out the fabric seperatly with the bare minimum of resin without letting resin soak into

each laminate or being spread unevenly ,, which can lead to stiff zones or delams ...

not having a layer of glass on the outside is asking for trouble , let alone just a cover of polyester resin ..

if you want to make a board quick and easy , forget a sandwich board...the set up you described with foam

,glass, pvc ,wood then resin ,, i have done that combo , i never even surfed it , it was to heavy before i even

finished it ,, without glass your resin just disappears into your laminates ...

if you dont mind a little extra work and a few extra dollars for something light and strong that will out perform

any conventional board then a vac board is for you ..

with this construction you cant afford to take short cuts ..

i just realised , what i said ??

because ive covered so much ground , i can look back and evaluate whats a short cut and whats not .. so i

should be careful that im not quick to cut down ideas ...

sometimes it just takes a slightly different approach or another way of thinking , and you end up making

something work that others had written off as a bad idea ..

laminex or formica is made from paper ...

its just a matter of how you treat it ...

regards

BERT

o yea , i almost forgot ...

i heard a comment that came from the mouth of australias surftech rep ,, this is a secondhand comment , but

the story is that surftech have recently had the fortune of discovering some new contruction procedures and in

the near future will be able to offer custom sandwich boards ...

looks like someone sees value in building custom sandwich boards ,, but the reality is a local producer will

always be a in stronger position for the same sale ....that is if there is any local producers???

Hi Swaylocks crew

Ive had a request to post some pics of the construction

Bert Please take care not to hurt yourself while laughing when you see how many steps it has taken me

It was my second eps sandwich board I now feel that I can combine some of the steps with confidence first

you must crawl before running

This is the blank hotwired,bottom done with a template on the profile table , deck done by sticking a template

on to the foam

Now this is the perimeter stringer being attached,they are 3mm cherry

The things in the plastic bags? salt lick blocks for the cows! perfect for weights!!

Now I have added some cross grain veneer in the areas where i put my hands when standing and where my

knee goes when duck diving

The last board developed some cracking here due to the for aft grain and the hard edge of the stringer

Hopefully this should remove that hard edge

That done now ive layed up a layer of glass to each side ,first i put down a seal caot with resin micro ballon

mix

Next time I will miss this step and put the glass on to the veneer before bagging and not put the seal coat

down

go to the next post for the pic

bag on the pre joined balsa skins

Note the fridge compresser vac pump ,very cheap!!

The bag is plastic sheet folded in half joined with 3m double sided tape on one end and the side the open end is

sealed each time with masking tape

The vac take of is the top of a fruit juice bottle taped on this means that to remove the vac line you just undo

the cap

I put one of these on each bag i use be it be small or large

Next the rails were added these are three layers of 5mm balsa

Now the rails were shaped and then the top and bottom glassed

the bottom is a single 4 ox the deck is two by 4 oz these were laid up and peel ply applied in one hit then the

whole thing bagged again

After that all it required was a finish coat of epoxy which was then sanded down to 800 grit then buffed with

cutting compound

go to the next post for fins

The fins are balsa core with a carbon spar section

First glue together the balsa and carbon (carbon layup unidirectionals )

Then shape now lay out a sheet of plastic sized to cover three fins twice

Wet out two layers of 4 oz glass on the peel ply and plastic now lay the three balsa carbon fins on to it .Wet

out another two layers and lay this over the top ,cover with peel ply now fold the plastic over

Put this in a small vac bag and leave overnight

Now cut around the fins with sissors and sand smooth then top coat

These fins are so light and stiff you wont belive it to alter the stiffness play with the glass lay up

The sockets and plugs that they fit in to are

plugs good quality ply (10 to 12 veneers) covered with balsa and glass for looks the sockets are just mouldings

of the sockets

These are dead easy to make ,in two nights after work you can have a complete fin system

The board now has a do it your self system which gives you for and aft fin tuning and toe in adjustment

The total weight of the board with fins is 2.75kgs Im happy with that and looking forward to the next one

Hi pinhead

Yes these are cut out of 1 meter long sheets from the local hobby shop, i just put a little scaff join on each one

and made sure that all the joins were not on top of each other

Hi Bert

hay thanks for the comments

The tail, i just dug out some of the eps then inserted a bit of vertical grain balsa,that should help with

compression when it gets knocks

If it gets too damaged over time I will just cut it back and put a tail block on

The other reson I did it this way was now you can see the perimeter stringers which makes it easier to explain

when people ask me!!

The fins and boxs are great and real easy to do Ill do a bunch of pics when I make my next set then post it

GLENN

The shorter board is flat the longer has a concave mid to tiny v at the back

Its easy to shape in any thing you want

To make a contour mat I think you would have to get an existing bottom you like polish it then laminate 5 or 6

layers or maybe 1 glass layer coremat then another glass layer,if you polished it well it will release no

problems.

I think that you can fine tune shape just as well as a standard blank

Its just that the methods and tools are different ,after doing a couple I think it is a better constructon method to

achieve what you want compared to normal board building

And much much cleaner,I hate blank dust!!