wintersresearch.files.wordpress.com · web viewmr: i think the snap election came as a surprise...

Ready Dundee 1 Pre FG 2

THE QUALITATIVE ELECTION STUDY OF BRITAIN 2017

Dundee Pre-election Leaders Pre Debate Group

Transcribed Focus Groups Dataset

Version 0.5

Date of release: 21 September 2017

Principal InvestigatorDr. Edzia Carvalho, University of Dundee

International Co-InvestigatorDr. Kristi Winters, GESIS, Cologne

Co-InvestigatorDr. Thom Oliver, UE Bristol

Funded by: GESIS-Leibniz InstituteUniversity of Dundee

UE BristolThe UK Data Archive

QESB Contacts

[email protected] [email protected] [email protected]

Website: qesb.info

1Transcribed by: Just Write Secretarial Services, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Contact: [email protected]

‘QESB’qualesb2015 @qualesb

mailto:[email protected]


READ ME

Early Release of Transcribed Focus Groups Dataset Version 0.5

On copyright and attribution

Copyright of this transcript belongs to Drs. Edzia Carvalho, Kristi Winters and Thom Oliver. Individuals may re-use this document/publication free of charge in any format for research, private study or internal circulation within an organisation. You must re-use it accurately and not present it in a misleading context. You must acknowledge the authors, the QES Britain project title, and the source document/publication.

Recommended citation: Carvalho, E. , K. Winters and T. Oliver. 2017. 'The Qualitative Election Study of Britain 2017 Dataset', version 0.5. Last accessed Date of website visit. Available at: www.qesb.info

On the transcription

All participants’ names have been changed and any direct or indirect identifiers removed to protect their anonymity

The transcripts in this version also do not include extensive instructions given to participants at the beginning of the groups, introductions by participants, and some exchanges between participants and moderators during exercises.

Initial Transcription by: Just Write Secretarial Services, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Contact: [email protected]





We'll start off talking about the snap elections, could you perhaps tell me what are your thoughts on the prime minister calling a snap election, and this time we'll go around the group. If I could call on you, Blake?

MR: I think the snap election came as a surprise to everyone. You have to wonder what the motive for the election being called was. I personally felt that it was a bit opportunistic and to set the cat amongst the pigeons a wee bit, and a lot of people think otherwise. I think it's been divisive on the part of the Tory party. But I feel a bit more optimistic about it now. I think there's some credible opposition beginning to appear, and since Theresa May has been on television, I think a lot of what she said has been very ill thought out and quite a mistake, actually, and has probably alienated a lot of her core voters. So I think they've shot themselves in the foot quite a bit, and she's tried to do a bit or backpedalling since as well, I think.

You mentioned that you felt that it was divisive; can you just explain that a little bit, I'm interested in that?

MR: I think there's a massive rift in the Labour party. For me, there's a huge difference between the Labour party in Scotland and the Labour party down south. The press were certainly all parroting this Corbyn bad thing all the time and running stories about how he's an IRA sympathiser, and just negating all the other facts about how every political party that's ever been in power has actually negotiated with terrorists. So, divisive in that sense. I think they saw an opportunity that they might win and it would give some, how would you say, key doubts to the decision about Brexit as well, which I think surprised them a bit. I think they called it because they thought it was the right thing to do but I think the result surprised them, in a sense.

Thank You. Danielle?

FR: I agree with a lot of what you said. I've got visions of The Thick Of It, of Malcolm Tucker sneaking behind the scenes or something, and they've told Theresa May that's she's on a roll there and she's called an election and then it seems to have gone a bit haywire since then. I agree with the divisiveness, because I think if you look, especially at the media, it's getting very difficult to tell what's satire and what's real stuff now. Really, you have to read things several times to work out if this is a real policy or whether someone is making it up. And, yes, I think that Theresa May kind of grasped the idea, thought it was a good idea to completely Clareihilate Labour, while they were at it, to shut up the people who kept on about they wanted to remain and to just roll over the top of the Scottish folk so they could get back in their box. And I don't think it's working out the way she expected it to. I think things are beginning to unravel a bit, and even the people who were in favour of a lot of the Conservative policies are beginning to say "no, that's a step too far for us". I'm not sure how much can change before the election but, again, I'm not sure how much can change and




then go back. So... it'll be interesting. I don't think it's going to be particularly well thought out; I think there's going to be an awful lot of knee jerk reactions.

In terms of policy?

FR: In terms of policy and in terms of reaction to the policy and the way various things are within the world, with Trump and terrorism and everything. There is so much mudslinging going on, which I don't think is going to help anybody.

Thank you. Desmond?

MR: The snap election took me by surprise. I thought two years into the term they're in, I thought another three years and there will be an election internally. It came out in the news, an election, I thought "wow!" And when she said it’s because of Brexit, she wants to strengthen UK's position in the Brexit negotiations, I thought "No, that's not why she's doing it". Yeah, the Labour party is divided; it has been divided for a long time. A lot of MPs don't like Jeremy Corbyn, but the majority of the party voted for him so they've got to accept that. If they don't accept that, then why are they still MPs? But the whole issue of the election being called for Brexit is nonsense, because again, I think it's still an opportunity for her to see "oh, that's happening, that's happening, that's divided, they're not dealing with that, I've got a chance to get another five years in power here." It's all gone haywire; it's all gone wrong, because people realise now her policies are divisive in itself. She's the one that's driving a debate about Scottish independence, because in the pamphlet put through the doors, the Tory party pamphlet mentions independence numerous times. It didn't mention the health service, it didn't mention education, it didn't mention anything but independence. So the people that are driving the independence today are the Conservatives. Labour, to a point, in Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't seem to be bothered about the Scottish referendum or not, there's a bit of confusion about that. Is he for it, is he against it? He's not bothered, but Kezia Dugdale says she's totally against it. I'm not too bothered about independence at the moment, all I'm concerned about is basically getting this country back on its feet, getting people treated well, and this is a chance, all the parties have risen up to the challenge, Labour has risen up to the challenge, SNP has consolidated more and have put forward arguments and are in a very strong position to actually offer a battle. Conservatives won't win it easy and, to me, it's going to be a fight. It'll be close but I think I know what will happen. Another four or five years Conservative rule will put this country so bad, the UK in such a bad position, regarding Europe, regarding the UK itself, all sorts of things could happen. To my mind, she's pushed a button and hoping for a result, but it's backfired on her. But the final result will be on June 8th when, no matter what way Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland vote, it’s the core vote in England, and Labour has got to do well in England and actually get that election victory, and that remains to be seen at the moment. But that's the way that I see it.




Thank you. Clare, your thoughts on the snap election?

FR: I think she called it, obviously, because she was a Remain and she wanted power. She wants to be the head of the Labour party so she called the election to keep the Tory party in line, because of Brexit people were taking over her. So she thinks if she calls an election then that gives her the mandate to do what she wants. So it was to keep her party happy, and it was thrown right in the middle of the council elections, so people were actually struggling then to get out the word. I think the Tory party, what they're doing is bumming up how wonderful they are and how much seats they've got and how good they're doing or whatever, so what's happening there is that they seem to forget that the SNP got 56 seats in the ...

2015 election.

FR: Yes, and then the Labour seats that they got... a lot of people don't understand the politics. The seats in the Scottish parliament, most of them were won by the SNP, people don't really realise that Labour and Conservatives got less seats, which is free seats. So the people have actually rejected the Tory party and they've rejected the Labour party, but, because of the way the Scotch parliament is working, they have to be given free seats so that the one party can't take over. The same for the council elections. They keep going on about how many seats the Conservatives got, how many seats they got... they never really got any seats, they got free seats. So I don't know if everybody understands the way that the voting goes, percentage, and then once you get your first seat, which SNP has got the first seat, then they've got the second seat and then his votes go down and down. I was at the count. The Labour party had to go 10 counts before they got a seat, the Tory party was the same, but because of the mainstream media they're putting out "Oh the Conservatives have done great!"

Can we come back to the snap election?

FR: Right, right, oh I thought that was all to do with it. I think she's going to get [chopped ??] The Labour party will not win. The Conservatives will definitely get in anyway, right. The Labour party...I think they'll make...I think they'll go up but they won't make any... but in Scotland it will be the SNP party, they're definitely going to be in control. The Labour party has shot themselves in the foot because of 11:32. So now they're getting called, they've always been Socialists. They've always been strong. Now, why can they not beat the Tories for the council? If they would just get their heads together with Kezia and say "look, concentrate on Scotland instead of going down there!" And the same with Ruth, they're too busy concentrating on English politics than on Scotland, and that's where they're going to get in trouble.




Right. Can we come back to the election then, and maybe we'll see if your predictions come through, Clare?

FR: They always come true.

So the second thing that we have on the agenda is to talk to you about your impressions about the leaders, and, for us, it’s very exciting, because we don't have any data on Jeremy Corbyn before this, so we are really interested in finding out what you think about Jeremy Corbyn, and also May. I'll go through Theresa May first, then Jeremy Corbyn and then Farron and finally, Nicola Sturgeon. We'll do these four leaders, we'll do positive and negatives for each of these leaders. So we'll start with Theresa May, and if you could just call out the phrases that you wrote. That's why I gave you the sheets. If you could take a couple of more minutes to refresh your memory about what you wrote. You can add to this or delete it or amend it in whatever you want.

FR: Spot the positive comment!

It's fine not to have any positive comments, so don't worry about it. I'm not forcing you to write something positive. So if you've had a chance to look at your comments, then any positives for Theresa May that you've written?

MR: No.

MR: No

MR: It was based on the photograph as well, I must say. Is that okay?

Yeah, it's usually you see a photograph and what comes to your mind.

MR: I tried not to draw on my strong dislike of her, because of everything that I know about her and think about her, and base it more on the photograph, that's what I'm trying to say. She never comes across positively, in my opinion, photographically or in film or anything.

FR: Yeah, even with a cuddly little animal she turns into Cruella de Ville... she just can't...

MR: She hasn't got the face for it.

FR: And I feel quite guilty, because she's female and everybody is always picking on how women look. But she... well...

Negatives then.

FR: This is really strong, but she is, she's actually evil. She doesn’t care about the poor, just the rich, right? So you're going on the picture, I just think she's evil...Cruella de Ville, so if she was in Disney she'd be in the scary evil group, Cruella de Ville and all them, they'd put her in there.




MR: The bad witches...

FR: So really there's another career there for her.

FR: With Disney.

FR: Pantomime

[laughter]

MR: I thought she looked insincere, and that was me trying to be detached from what I know about her. She looks insincere in photographs, so I think that's really negative for a politician, because in my opinion, Nicola Sturgeon always manages to sound sincere, even when she's been berated and attacked from all sides, her body language, her facial expression, the tone of her voice. Theresa May just doesn't seem to manage it.

FR: She can't even speak without notes. That's why she won't do any interviews, because she's not got any people skills. She’s not got people skills. You need a leader with people skills, because that's what you're doing, you're leading people.

MR: I put "over confident", she looks over confident in the photographs, 16:18. Too confident, she's looking far too confident and that's going to just... Confidence is a good thing, if you're confident about something, but overconfidence, you're just fooling yourself and she's going to just go bang! That's what I thought she looked like. I thought she looked very overconfident, in that particular photograph anyway.

FR: I've got "cruel and cold", and I think it's a combination of that and over confident. And she's "oh well, you little person, you might think that doesn't sound very nice but I know best", and it very much all comes across like that, which I don't like. Also, money driven as well, that that comes first, rather than people.

FR: I think it's also "you do as you're told", "do as I tell you because I'm the boss." Even when she's doing a speech, it's not the Tory party she speaks about, it's her, it’s her. Instead of "the Tory party will be strong, we'll be there." I've noticed she's getting worse, just by saying she's the Tory party. She's not the Tory party.

MR: Her team is the Tory Party. I thought that was going a bit too far, "me and my team, the Conservative party" I thought "what?"

FR: Or wait a minute "the Conservative and Union party." It's now become the Conservative and Union party.

MR: They've made that more prominent again, haven't they?

FR: We can divide them as well.




I must say about the photographs, they are from the party websites.

FR: That's interesting.

That's why they look different and so on, because we've decided why should we add our bias, we'll just give them the party website.

MR: They need to sack their PR Company then, from what we're saying, don't they?

FR: I was wondering how that... I didn't know if we were all given the same photos?

Yes.

FR: That would be an interesting one, to actually give different people different photos.

MR: I wonder what a Conservative person would say?

FR: Yeah.

MR: Because I tried not to let my knowledge influence me, I really did try.

In three years’ time you can look up our data, it will be all anonymised.

MR: If I was a Conservative I wonder if I would sit here and say she was sincere rather than insincere?

FR: Yeah. You'd probably put "inspiring" or something.

FR: If you're a strong Tory person it doesn't matter what...as long as she's giving you what you want, your tax rates and all this stuff, so if you're a Tory person it wouldn't matter what she looked like, because she's delivering what you want.

Can we move to Jeremy Corbyn now, any positives that you have written for Jeremy Corbyn?

FR: He seems principled and he seems like a nice man, and he keeps being accused of being uncharismatic. Who decided that they have to be charismatic? I thought that was the problem with Tony Blair. It all went horribly wrong.

MR: That can be a problem, can't it? I mean, look at Hitler. For goodness sake, he was very charismatic!

FR: I'm sorry, but Jeremy Corbyn seems like the kind of person... I would disagree with him on Scottish Independence, but I'd happily go for a pint with the man.

Any other positives?




FR: I've got "he's honest", right, but he has to throw some ball or he'll get walked over. If he would just come out and just throw some balls and just say "look, this is it." He's a wee bit wimpy, but he's a nice man. His principles are honest, but, when he's working with the Tory party, he just can't cope, he hasn't got the... you know. But a nice man.

FR: The statement he made on the terrorist attack in Manchester was really nice. It was really honest, and how upset he was, how people should look after each other. It wasn't put on the main news or anything like that, it was hidden away. And folk are saying "well actually, have a look at this", and he does come across as a normal human.

MR: I think he's knowledgeable, forthright, he seems to know his stuff, he seems to know what he's doing, he's thought it through and he's forthright in putting it across. He believes he's ... that's his plan, his view on it, whether other people back it or not is a different story. But you can say that of any party. Rather than a dogmatic stance and something.... It's "this is what we need to do, let's work it out", rather than "this is what I want to do and you better do what I tell you." So he seems to know his stuff, he's determined and forthright in putting it forward, and he seems to know where he wants to go. But, as I say, he does appear a bit quiet sometimes and withdrawn. Now, whether that's a positive thing or not, a good thing, it could be positive or it could be negative, it could be neutral, it depends on the situation .

FR: But when he's in parliament at question time, I mean, they just laugh at him and just totally... and he just stands there. I know you don't want to be starting swearing, but yeah it's like... I feel sorry for him.

Let's do some negatives for him then...

FR: Well, that's a negative. He's standing in Westminster at Prime Minister question time and they're actually laughing at him and they're taking a loan at him, and he just stands there. It's like...and you voted for him to fight for you? Compared to Angus Desmondson, who stands there and goes "right..." I like him, but when you see him standing there you think "don't take that! Your members are standing there waiting for you to fight for them and you’re just..." A bit wimpy, you know. But anyway, that's just my view.

Any other negatives for Jeremy Corbyn?

MR: I can't think of any other negatives.

FR: My negative was more I think it’s more the party that's gone wrong. He's maybe the good guy, they're basically setting him up for their ills, because they're all busy bitching at each other and being pale conservatives and things. Yeah, I don't know what the poor man is supposed to do, and I think in the future we'll look back and say "actually, maybe he was right."




FR: I think he's right, he's a genuine person who wants to do good, but he just doesn't have....

FR: I used to be a teacher, and you'd got some teachers who stand up in front of the class and they would seem really wishy washy, and if everybody supported them they did great, and it's whether or not you get that support makes how you look. So maybe there's no point in him doing anything else if he's not ever going to be given the support of his party.

Thank you, that's a really interesting point of view of the two main leaders and the contrast you have shown in your impressions of them. So that's very interesting.

MR: Can I just say, I didn't say something positive. I think he looks really friendly in the picture, and I think that's really important. If, as you say, that's going to be your first contact, that internet interface, then it's a good image he's portraying.

Let's move on to the Lib Dem leader, Tim Farron, any positives that you have for him?

MR: Again, I think he looks friendly in the picture, and that's quite positive.

MR: Yeah, I think he appears positive, but in a nervous way.

In a nervous way?

MR: I think he looks confident that he's going to do something, he's going to achieve something, although I think he’s fighting a losing battle because his party has lost all credibility, and that's not his fault, it's because Nick Clegg went into coalition with David Cameron. And Tim Farron has got to bear that on his shoulders. The party has lost all credibility, but he I think looks confident but is unsure about the way things are going.

Any other positives for Tim Farron?

FR: Unremarkable.

As a positive?

FR: He comes across as a Splitting Image puppet. He's hyper; he just bounces and twitches. To his favour, he did create a poll to go out to Scottish voters, saying "what actually do you believe in?" It's basically "Well, what stops you from voting Liberal?" So whether he'll actually take that on board, I don't know.

FR: I've got neutral-

We'll just talk about the positives and negatives.

FR: Sorry...




That will be in a minute. Negatives?

MR: He's invisible, isn't he? And I think that's the thing for me, I've not been able to form a real opinion about him, other than based on what other people have said about him on Facebook or something like that, and my opinion would be based on how he's let religion colour his politics, which he should have steered away from. I don't know if that's being done by third parties to discredit him or if that's really what's happened. So that's my opinion about him; I'm not sure.

Danielle, you were going to say something?

FR: I agree that the homophobic comments, he's just not going to get rid of them, and the more he protests, it's just too little, too late, really. And I've also got "nobody else would do the job."

Okay, finally, Nicola Sturgeon, any positives?

FR: She's as determined as ever, she's always been determined, but I put "wiley in a positive sense", because that seems to be a character... She doesn’t do it in a negative way, she's typically Scottish and that's what typically Scottish people are, wiley.

As a positive?

MR: Yes

FR: I've got "trustworthy and she just wants what’s best for Scotland and its people." That's her main objective.

Any other positives for Nicola?

MR: Friendly. She's very statesman like, if you can use that word to describe a woman, very composed.

FR: I've got "I think she's very shrewd". I think she's playing an absolute blinder, I think she can be very professional and statesman like and then have the selfies taken the next minute and be popping up all over the internet and things like that. I think she's played it really well.

Negatives for her? Okay, you don't have to search; if it's not there, it's not there.

FR: It's interesting, I've noticed that people who criticise her will criticise her appearance, and when you resort to that you're struggling for your arguments.

MR: Compared to Theresa May though, I think she's far better than Theresa May in that sense. She's photogenic, Theresa May is not photogenic, she's good with people Theresa May is not good with people.




FR: It's interesting, she developed herself into that. If you look back 10 years, I mean, the woman is about five years younger than me, and she's got a pudding bowl hairstyle and everything, and she has absolutely reinvented herself.

FR: But then once you become that person you get all the things that go with it, the hairdresser, you get...

FR: No, I think she's done it all really well.

So the most important question for us now is how you're thinking of voting. So what we're interested in is what are the issues, what are the considerations, what really is going on in your mind when you're thinking about how you're going to vote this time around? Not necessarily who you're going to vote for, although if you want to tell us that, that's brilliant, but more about how you're thinking about voting this time, what are the issues, what are the considerations that are going behind it? So I'll start with you, Clare?

FR: There's not any thing about me voting, because I want what’s best for Scotland, and I think what's best for Scotland is to break away from the union, simply because they're running Scotland down so they can then say "well, you want to be independent", and obviously, if you go into loads of detail, you'll find that they're taking all our assets, like our shipping thing, and 30:50 took half of Scotland’s fishing rights away just so we can get a Scotch parliament, and I feel that if we don't get all these MPs back into parliament then Theresa May will dissolve the parliament, she'll dissolve the Scottish parliament, we'll be out of Brexit, she'll take us all out of Brexit and all these good points... everything will go, your safety, your work things, the Europeans going back and forward, and we'll be even poorer. We’ll be the poorer of the poor, because they'll have complete control, and that's what she's wanting, complete control, and for Scotland to progress we've got to stand on our own two feet, and I feel that it will probably be hard in the first few years, but what's ahead of us, if we don't do that, is a hundred times worse. I worry for my grandchildren, my great grandchildren. This is my worry. I don't want to go to my grave thinking that they're struggling, that they're living in poverty, they've got no homes, that they're living off food banks. I've worked with food banks; I know what it's like. That's what I want. I just wish people would wake up to what's going on in their own country, and you try to get the voice out to them and say "this is what's going to be happening", and if it ends up being too late, we can't go back and say "well, I told you what it was going to be like." So I'll be voting for SNP, and we're working hard to get there.

Desmond?

MR: I'm in a quandary. I would normally vote SNP, I voted SNP in the local elections, I voted SNP in the last elections. My mind was thinking of a national picture, putting aside the independence argument just now, because that is not... I'm putting that to the side for the




moment and looking at the national picture, and in this election I would have voted for probably Labour. However, whether that’s going to have effect in Scotland is very doubtful, because I would like to see some decent Scottish Labour MPs bolstering the rest of the UK party; however, I don't think that's probably going to happen. So I'm sort of in a quandary whether to go with Labour or to go with... because I agree with a lot of what they're doing, a lot of what they want to propose, or do I go with SNP and return... I think SNP will win in Dundee and will win in most of Scotland anyway, but I'm in a quandary just now whether it's Labour or SNP, and it doesn't matter which one it is, I still think that there will still be an SNP majority from Scotland, because SNP are just far too strong. But on the general election alone, without independence, I would be going Labour, but now I'm Labour or SNP. I'm still undecided, but how I vote will not make much difference to the picture in Scotland, there are too many SNP voters that are going to get their way. It's the English vote that Labour must win, ultimately, and Scotland can't do anything about that.

Thank you.

FR: I think it's coming down to a two party race, so I'll be voting SNP, which I usually do but I didn't in the council elections. But yes, just for all the social justice and a tough opposition, I think it has to be, and I can't see Scottish Labour coming back again till Kez does something. But yeah, that's the choice, one or the other.

Harold?

MR: I will vote SNP. I would have been a traditional Labour voter in the past, I would have rejected the SNP, but I will vote SNP because there's a kind of hierarchy for me, with independence at the top, and Labour are not pinning their colours to the mast about that at all. And then the Brexit thing. So, yes, SNP. Is that enough description?

Yes. The next question is about Brexit, so actually it's a really good segue. The question is a two part question and you can answer it in whichever order you want, but what I'm really interested in is a lot has happened in the last 12 months, with the EU referendum and then the aftermath of the referendum, and what's really interesting is about the effect that people say that the Brexit referendum has had on people's lives. So what I want to really understand is how, if at all, it has affected how you're going to vote, and, more importantly, how you think about politics in the UK? Desmond?

MR: David Cameron never wanted a referendum, in the first place. He only gave the referendum on the EU membership because of backbencher’s pressure. Theresa May was on the side to remain, lost the referendum, David Cameron resigned, Theresa May became the figure and now she's all out for leave. I thought "there's something wrong here. Two ministers who were for remain are now in charge of the Brexit negotiations, which doesn't make sense." So the Tory party and the whole Brexit episode hasn't really changed my




opinion about voting. I would still normally be SNP or Labour. I was a Labour party voter in the past, I went SNP, and as I've explained, I'm now undecided. But the whole episode of Brexit... I voted to remain, Scotland voted to remain, Wales voted to remain, but as soon as we got 39:00 dragged out by Westminster, which is all wrong. Nicola Sturgeon is right, Scotland voted to remain, it doesn't matter how many people voted, the turn out, there's no mandatory vote. In Australia there's a mandatory vote but in the UK there's no mandatory vote. People who voted, voted to remain, therefore Scotland should have a voice in that. The UK is four nations, it's not one nation, it's four nations and each has a separate voice.

How has Brexit changed how you think about politics?

MR: Not an awful lot. We're better off... EU nationals contribute a lot to the economy of Scotland, take out all these EU nationals and you're left with a very bare health service, public service, other things. Immigration is vital, and how far that goes is a different argument, because different people have different arguments on how far should you go on that issue. But, to me, politics hasn't changed. I've always looked on politics since the last referendum in 2014, and Scotland is far better on its own now. Economically, it may not be viable at the moment, but it will happen and it will be strong once it does happen. Other countries have proved that.

FR: I think the Brexit thing that came, you've got the ones that led the Brexit, the UKIP people, they got the country in such a state about immigration and hatred and whatever and it was never fully explained what Brexit was all about, but it was built up in hatred and "they've taken all our money, the EU have taken all our money...look what they’re doing to Scotland...taking all the money", and they built up so much hatred that the people who are in towns with a lot of emigrations, they were the ones that obviously voted for Brexit, whereas the south, they wanted to stay in because they knew they were better off down there. So even in Dundee, because I did a lot of canvasing for remain and stuff like that, a lot of people didn't understand it. And even going out in the streets and speaking to people... one woman said to me that she was voting to come out because her son can't get a job and "they're taking our jobs", this is what was generating. And even when you were explaining to her "has your son got any training?" "No." "Well, that's why they're bringing them in. You're going to have to get your son to go to college and get trained" and all the rest of it. So Brexit was whipped up in this fever of "yeah, let's get out of here" whatever, our money, but at the same time, it's actually been a good thing for Scotland because people have suddenly realised then that some of the things that will happen if we do come out of Brexit, plus it has given us a platform in the world. Now the whole world practically knows about Scotland, whereas when we did the referendum and you would go abroad people would say... "you voted no..." whereas now they know about Scotland, so that, in a sense, is quite good for Scotland and for Brexit. Plus, it's given us a platform. We've got this thing going forward that we voted to stay in, 62% to stay in, a lot of those votes were from people in the




rich areas of Dundee, a lot of them knew that they had to remain, so a lot of people that had voted No in the referendum were actually voting Yes in the European thing. So I think in one sense Brexit is destroying Britain, but, at the same time, it's pushing Scotland into the forefront of the world, so that's a good side, the other side. Not that I want to see 43:45, but that would be good, but if we don't wake up and realise what actually is happening then we're going suffer.

Just to recap the question, how much has Brexit influencing how you are going to vote in this election and how it has changed, if at all, how you think about politics in the UK?

MR: It's further polarised my dislike of the Tory party, for sure. I really think about it a lot and try to think what is the positive in Brexit and what is the negative, and the only positives that I can see are for a certain type of person that might benefit from the deregulation of industry and the further removal of workers’ rights. And it’s pretty disgusting, actually; I can't see any positives in it. I think it'll have a huge part perhaps in the collapse of farming in this country and the rural economy, potentially. It's like you said, they spoke about Brexit and nobody actually knew what it really meant and what good the EU do and why it was founded after the Second World War to try and unify Europe again after it being in such chaos. It had been a force for good.

FR: Yeah, but there's also faults, but then there is in anything.

MR: Of course there is, but change them.

FR: Yes, that's what I'm saying. If we had a voice of our own we could maybe put forward our ideas, but we don't have a voice, we've got to go with Westminster.

MR: And it's disenfranchising Scotland, isn't it, by forcing us to come out of it and making it doubly difficult for us.

FR: It's also opened up some possibilities, because you can look at all the other similar sized countries in Europe and say well actually, there are so many different ways of being aligned with the EU, so if people were to start to look at them and say "well, actually there's this option or there's that option, and there are all these countries that are getting on perfectly fine." But it's the mentality of you want to be a wee country just tooting along fine or do you want to be some superpower? Punching above your weight is the phrase that keeps being used, and it's like why does anybody want that, why is that something to aim for?

Has Brexit changed how you think about politics?

FR: Yes, because it has made things slightly more complex, because people have realised that... as you see, they've voted no to independence, but all of a sudden they're "wow, we didn't actually mean that we wanted... No, it's all going wrong". The farmers are realising




that voting No wasn't such a good idea, because they're really going to suffer. And again, academics, and there's so much... It's highlighted how much of politics is just done in stupid sound bites and all these people going "oh, we told those Europeans..." What do you think they do? "Oh the EU, it's bureaucrats, you know", and that's all they can say. And it's like so you have no idea what you actually voted to get out of? "Oh straight bananas." [laughter] There we go.

Thank you very much. One final question. There has been a lot of stuff going on about whether there was going to be debates or not, leader debates, and there's been a very complex resolution to that, which even I can't get my head around. There has been different debates and different people taking part in different formats and different times... But anyway, before all of that complexity, there was a discussion about whether the debates should be held, so I wanted to just find out very quickly if you thought the debates should have been held the way that they were the last time around, where you had, at least in one of them, all the seven party leaders stand on the same stage and talk about their policies.

FR: The reason why they didn't have all of them was because Theresa May refused, so that is one of them, and, because she wasn't on, Jeremy Corbyn refused. So how could you have a debate?

Is it still a desirable thing, if there was the option of having it, would you want it to continue?

FR: I think they should have done what they did on Have I got News for You and just had the tub of lard for the people who didn't turn up and say, "Well, we've asked you. If you don't turn up..." it's like a broomstick for Theresa May, and I think they should have just done that. I think it was useful seeing all of them talking, and I think that is a huge turnaround in how... I know friends, especially in England and Wales, saw Nicola Sturgeon, and all of a sudden it was "Wait a minute, we were told this is the new screeching wee Harvardan and she's coming across as perfectly reasonable." So I think that was useful to see, other people that you don't usually, and I think you should put UKIP on the platform whenever you can, because they just absolutely blow themselves up.

MR: I watched a bit of the debate where Theresa May never turned up, and I thought "where's Jeremy Corbyn?" I heard later that he wasn't going to do it unless Theresa May turned up. Fair enough, he got on there, but Nicola Sturgeon got quite a good reception, a very good reception, some of the things she said made perfect sense and most of the audience, who were quite mixed, she got a very good response from. I thought "wow, she's making perfect sense here. She's lifting up Scotland, promoting Scotland, but at the same time she's not splitting away and calling England the enemy, whereas a lot of people on the Conservative, on the right, say "ah, she wants to break away from the UK, she won't talk to




you after. You'll have to get a passport to get across 50:33 guards." And I thought "nonsense, she wants...

MR: Business as usual.

MR: ...just as it is.

FR: That debate was a waste of time, that debate was a waste of time, because it was not about the General Election, it was about the devolved power. So what was the point? It was all about the devolved power and all the "plants" that were in the audience, so she did really well to support herself. Now, when you're having a General Election debate, it should be about, the debate should be about Trident, it should be about the world, it should have been about Brexit. What was it about? Education, national health service, you get that in the Scottish Parliament every Thursday in the First Minister questions, and that was what was wrong with that debate, it was a waste of space. Nicola Sturgeon was doing exactly the same thing as she does in the Scottish Parliament on a Thursday. There were no General Election questions.

She kept saying "Well in Scotland we have ..." blah, blah, blah.

FR: Exactly. They were pouncing on her. "Nurses get paid 1% more in Scotland than they do in England, and we get..." So these are all dissolved powers, so for people who know all this, or whatever, it was a waste of space, because it didn't actually get into anything about the General Election.

Final question and then you're free to go. I want to end on a light note, which is: if you think about the last 12 months, what kind of song do you think would summarise the last 12 months?

FR: Monthy Pythons Always Look on the Bright Side", I think. I think this might be the year where politics and democracy hit a low point.

MR: There's a song, I'm not sure if you know it, by Ian McNabb, a song is called Truth and Beauty off his first solo album. It seems to stick in my mind an awful lot, and just when you asked that question that song came into my mind straightaway. There's something about it, the truth is opened up and you can see what it's like and you can the reality and how bad it is and how good it could be.

That's very profound.

MR: I don't know if you know the song, but look it up on YouTube.

FR: There's a video of him doing it in Glasgow doing it at the Cottiers.

MR: So that's my song, Ian McNabb, Truth and Beauty.17

Transcribed by: Just Write Secretarial Services, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Contact: [email protected]



FR: Mine would be Hope over Fear... [laughter] I've got four coats, I do the support part for the 54:40 and I do the collection for the food bank ?? by Mohammad, and then I'm an SNP activist, so I'm pounding up the streets. This is hard work, by the way, you guys. We don't get this vote for nothing," pounding up tenements all over the place. And I'm also an activist for independence, so I'm always at the rallies. So if anyone is going to Glasgow, not this Saturday but next, there'll be over 20,000 ?? look out for it, and you'll see on Independence Live stream, 20,000 walking from the Botanic gardens all the way down to Glasgow Green. And I'll be there, and the Yes bikers, 250 Yes bikers. You've never seen anything until you've seen this!

FR: The BBC will be looking the other way.

FR: Well, we go down Argyle Street, you won't see this on the BBC! [singing]

Whoever is going to transcribe this focus group is going to have a real laugh!

[laughter]

Thank you very much.

Just to end it: SNP don't get where they are unless they've got activists, and I'm the top activist in Dundee!



wintersresearch.files.wordpress.com · web viewmr: i think the snap election came as a surprise...

Documents