The Vistar Method A Visionary Approach to Accessing Collective Consciousness

An interview with Ron and Victoria Friedman, Founders of the Vistar Foundation

March 18, 2008

About Ron and Victoria:

For over 16 years Ron and Victoria have been doing group work

centered on Gurdjief and Rudolf Steiner’s work and non-rules

tradition. They have simplified this and other work into what

they call The Vistar Foundation, a non-for-profit organization

dedicated to the power of collective consciousness. Through

this work they pioneered their own method of communication

an Evolutionary Meeting Structure for personal transformation.

Working with others helping to reveal a field of unity in a group

from which there are possibilities.

They are also accomplished in their own lives… Victoria has a BA in Fine Arts, she worked as

a ceramicist, selling to galleries across the US, and founded The ClayWay Arts Center for

the creative expression of The Source.

Ron received a BA in Physics received a BA in Physics from Columbia University and medical

training from New York University School of Medicine and Harvard Medical School. Ron is a

Pathologist

Tell us a little about the Vistar Foundation. How did you start the foundation

and what is your reason for being?

Victoria: Vistar Foundation started with a promise to Charles A. Hart who was a teacher

Ron and I studied with in 1980 and Charles A. Hart was a man who saved the lives of many

people. He had a foundation that was called the Foundation for the re-development of

individual character. When one entered his organization he promised to teach people to

help them in their lives to show them a new way of living and as a result all you had to do

was to promise him that we would give this away and share this with others. Vistar

foundation began with a promise and that is what we are doing, keeping that promise and

when we entered that foundation there is a way of meeting together. We just entered a

structure, the structure had the seeds of what we are doing now, but it was not complete,

we have developed it over years. That structure had a way of working together in a

circular form that was not defined. We entered that teaching with something that was

happening that had not been looked or become conscious of – that organization the

structure was used for the content… just a method of working together, there were no rules,

no name for it, we were not really conscious of what was happening, but It was a start of it.

Over the years we became more and more aware of the actual method with which we were

accessing the kind of knowledge, information and relationships that were happening in the

group and we began to develop and take a look at the process

What is your vision for the Vistar Foundation?

Ron: Our vision is to share with people and help them directly experience a way of working

which we call evolutionary… which is a new form of unity of the consciousness of the

participants in order to create what we would call a new unit a new entity with very different

properties than an individual working alone. We would like to share this and how to

approach this way of working this form of consciousness

Which really approaches vision that every human being has always had, which is a true

unity a true contact with each other and for me this vision was planted very early on to the

degree where first of all, I was raised in a kibbutz in Israel, where some people may know

Children are raised as a peer group, boys and groups together and they stay together for

many years at a time. I am not too sure which way it worked whether that influenced me in

my vision or it pre-existed.

The vision is of with people possibilities of something really wonderful, which is a whole

different sense of human communication and unification.

You were raised in a Kibbutz, then you really learned to be in community.

Ron: Also being very close to nature for the first 7 years of my life makes a very big

difference. Contact with nature, so essential so archetypal, this allows a certain soul

qualities to express themselves.

Victoria: In relation to the vision when we started this foundation 1994 we really just

planned to give a lecture. That lecture turned into a process of people, some of us are still

hear 14 years later. We had one plan but this is the plan that unfolded.

The vision of the Vistar foundation is always unfolding but what has happened is the Vision

has taken us. We become involved in meeting with people 3 times a week sometimes 3

hours per session. Our work is about finding new unity and unity beyond unity. We can’t say

we had planned this in any way

I think that is a mark of a true vision. You use the word collective

consciousness readily in your work. What are your views about why you see this

as important?

Ron: First of all there is a worldwide interest, a growing interest in what is called collective

consciousness.

- It is a form of presence, field, consciousness whose properties are beyond those of

the sum of the individual participants. In other words it is a sense a new appearance

with possibilities that occurs as a result of people coming together in consciousness

and aware of the value of their process

- Collective consciousness – one can see it almost, when we have meetings one can

sense this presence, which people know by the way. It is not limited to our meetings,

it occurs in many different settings but what is important to us is make people

conscious of their experience of the potential of what happens when people come

together.

- This is a new form and it is evolutionary because there is nothing in the universe that

works alone. Everything is increasing complexity to serve a greater simplicity… you

can see it in the body.

- Cells become an organ. Organ becomes the organ system and organ systems

eventually serve higher and higher levels of instructions of directorship and it is true

of our bodies of human beings, of societies and galaxies.

Victoria: Also a lot of people gather in Collective unconsciousness. That is the problem it is

not that we don’t know what to do, that we have the wrong people or the wrong facilitator,

it is the collective unconsciousness.

When we get to the rules they really help helps us with that… We have an ego – an egoist

mind that is unconscious, when we have 10 egoist minds in the room we have collective

unconsciousness.

To move into the collective consciousness we want to be in a collective consciousness.

We feel respected, heard, create together, we can hear other people, when we leave feeling

something beautiful happened that we love humanity. Most meetings are not like that and

that is not where they will end. We want to end up in a better place.

Well said, collective unconsciousness, groups of people are so much more

complex. They come together expecting things to fall into place as simply as a

task we might individually do and instead we are confronted with complexity and

problems. So what is the magic of the Vistar method? What can you share with us

about it?

Ron: The fact that there is magic in this group interaction is itself magic. The magic begins

with a prerequisite that is a vision – a conscious vision that people share to one degree or

another – that the meeting is something special. Not only does it have an issue it wants to

address. But the fact that people are coming together and are you willing to follow the

rules and have a joint vision. Whatever the topic is and that vision serve something beyond

the individual alone. When those prerequisites are in place then something happens and

that is the beginning of magic

That is why we say this is the prerequisite that needs to be defined in the beginning of the

meeting.

The rules following these prerequisite ask us invariably to put aside programs, beliefs, or

the force of our ego wishing individual expressions according to opinion. We put our egos

aside and value the meeting process itself as an access to a different level of intelligence

and unity. So the magic seems to be connected to the willingness to go beyond oneself to

something that is beyond oneself and at the same time the individual talent is necessary for

this to happen and the magic is in this kind of appreciation, within this kind of motivation

magic happens. Something joins us or is recognized that has completely new qualities

magical qualities

Victoria: People intrinsically want to come together and create and work together. We

have gathered together from the beginning of time for everything from destruction to

creation. We love to get together, we want to get together, we want to do something we

want to have a good outcomes being in the space of consciousness

Even though we want the best outcome, it is not enough to want it… because what gets in

the way is the ego as it is mechanical and programmed. We all do things that we wish we

hadn’t. We could be in a meeting and wanted to be really quiet and we weren’t, we wanted

to speak up but we didn’t. We have these personalities that are programmed and

conditioned.

We find that when people want to get together and have great intention something has to

come in and curtail that ego personality and give us that little extra help. The four rules in

the Vistar Method of Communication (VMC) can do that.

The four rules can help that Ego, in each one of us… even in the leader… put it aside just a

little. The rules contain it to some degree, but actually allow it an authentic expression

For example the first rule of the VMC is:

1. People sit in circle and they have to raise their hands to contribute to the

meeting

They cannot speak out whenever they want randomly – in a meeting there is a leader. The

Leader is not the expert /not authoritarian person. The leader is the focus of the meeting.

There is a topic in the meeting that is called the thread and that is the focus.

Just the fact that I have to raise my hands and be called on before I speak.

. Takes the ego and puts a little bit of harness on it.

Some people have a hard time with it and they speak without ever being called on.

2. Each individual has to contribute directly to the leader on the topic.

Now again to speak to the leader on a topic… most people in the postmodern age are into

leadership… everyone wants to speak up. People will start talking and take over the

meeting… everything they do will be in a leadership tonality. It may not be good or bad, but

in terms of Collective consciousness coming together in some kind of harmony, it does not

work well.

All these rules have to be understood by everyone in the meeting…

With Shared leadership in the meeting, I’d rather follow the rules, contribute to the leader.

In this way, nothing is diminished. As a matter of fact, I am heard clearly, I haven’t given

up my power in any way, and I don’t feel like I’ve been swallowed up by the group.

Ron: A great difference is the priority of what is actually going on in the meeting…

3. No questions while the meeting is in progress

We encourage questions after the meeting is over. This contradicts many traditional ways of

how meetings are conducted. The reason for it is again is to focus everyone’s consciousness

on the evolution of the meeting atmosphere itself.

EQA: energy, quality, atmosphere of the meeting is actually evolutionary moving towards

the experience of collective consciousness which is the primary focus of the meeting. Just as

important as the meeting topic, this demands a level of understanding and consciousness by

each participant.

In light of the circular ascending energy moving toward collective consciousness, questions

tend to short-circuit this energy, interrupting the flow of the meeting. Most questions

redirect group movement of the energy towards the individual.

As Facilitators, a key skill is to ask intelligent questions, without questions

what do we have left?

Ron: What you have left is a different quality of attention and access to a more essential

nature of yourself. Now that does not mean that questions don’t arise during the course of

the meeting. They arise many times. Many Questions are sincere while many are powered

by the Ego. But we have found that if they are held, if they are willing to participate in the

larger movement of energy, those questions will be answered as a result of the natural flow

of the group energy.

As soon is the meeting is over, we welcome questions but it is interesting to note that the

people who object the most early on, rarely have any questions at the end of the meeting.

Victoria: We have asked participants to write the question on a piece of paper and at the

end of the meeting those questions are gone. Most often people don’t ask questions

because they want to hear an answer, most questions are asked to divert energy or to

argue.

We are taught to disagree through questions, you are right, the more I think

about that the more I think we often are evaluated in terms of our participation by

the quality of our questions. Answers are generated from intelligence from

beyond the sum of the group. Answers will emerge – I don’t mean to be

facetious, but let us open up to some questions from the group.

Jon Barb: A comment more than a question. I love this structure. The fact that people are

coming together and because of the rules they have to subordinate their individual ego’s get

merged together and somehow collective consciousness comes up in the meeting itself. For

30 years I have been doing communications training and 80% of questions mask ideas or

mast rejection, only 20% of questions are for information anyway.

I just got done reading Patrick Lencioni’s ‘Death by Meeting’ he suggests 4 meeting types.

This can be added to make meeting come alive.

Ron: You got it, it is not that the questions are good or bad, it is more a question of the

movement of group energy towards an agreed upon vision.

I believe that in every one of us there is a desire for a higher level of communication,

creativity and self-expression from a true area of responsiveness. This is actually what

happens in these meetings. It is not whether the question of right or wrong, it is more a

question of respect and evaluation to move the group energy to access one’s own creativity

and the group’s creativity

Victoria: This way of meeting creates the space. When we have agreed to contain the ego,

it feels more spacious. In that space we find ourselves able to speak in a different way.

Mina: This sounds to me like some of the delineation between the Left and Right brain, is

that valid?

Ron: Between the Right and Left there is Corpus Callosum, which is a huge bundle of fibers

that connects what we call the energies of one side to the energies of other. When one part

of the brain is damaged the other part will take over the functions. It’s a remarkable

mechanism.

What we are allowing here is going beyond R/L to an integration of both. We are letting go

of old patterns, old associative networks in the brain and we are trusting what we are – our

true nature in the group has the ability to respond, creatively.

So the element of sacrifice of old way of thinking is so essential, atomically it allows both to

work together to cooperate in a way which they don’t usually do, because one takes over

the other. Not one over the other.

Mina: For those who are interested there is a Website called www.ted.com

Ron: One thing is obvious that the right and left brain are not the source but rather the

instruments of its expression. That is what happens in our meetings, this field is actually a

project or realization of its presence, beyond the individual physical form.

Rule #4. No cross talk.

This rule is to maintain the orderly flow of energy in a meeting. Now what is cross talk? The

most obvious one is two people having a side conversation. Another form of cross talk is

subtler like exchanging glances, or where people use body language to agree or disagree

with what the leader has said. There are many ways in which ego wants to disturb the flow

of the meeting.

Another form of cross talk is what is going on between males and females in the room.

What is the attitude of Men towards women and women towards men?

Victoria: We are in this field of Collective consciousness; we try to get beyond the very

personal agendas. In the field of consciousness there is a point of recognition, not an

agreement but this is how we all want it… to get there those side conversations need to be

put aside.

Yes with no cross talk a meeting can move to a deeper level. The energy we

use is focused on the collective consciousness. Let us talk about the whole idea

about musical and theatrical elements to your approach.

Victoria: In our organization there are a lot of people who were involved in theatre. We

had people who had been singers, in opera. One day we said why don’t we apply the VMC

to this?

We started a group called Voice point. We use VMC to create everything from scripting,

composing, and choreography. There is no director, no composer, no choreographer; we

have developed 2 CDs entire using the Vistar method.

Ron you had mentioned the whole process of musical improvisation can be

used as a catalyst to unfolding group consciousness.

Ron: Besides from using it for creativity in various areas, we are convinced VMC can be

used in any area. VMC can be used in any area of creation. Actual formal of the meeting is

musical – they way the group has evolved as a whole follows the musical law. I have

mentioned the work of George Gurjieff, the Russian mystic and teacher and he said that

there are 2 fundamental cosmic laws.

1. Law of 3s – forces that are necessary to create anything new

2. Law of 7s – how creation manifests itself.

They are true of a relationship between two people and they are true of the formation of

galaxies.

The law of 7, the musical aspect, is shown in our scale on the piano… and what it says is

there is an octave where you begin from the middle C to the next C, there are 2 places in

the progression where there is a missing black note. It says that in any enterprise, this

includes the evolution of humanity, where one will reach 2 points of difficulty and it is

predictable where they will occur. We have experienced that in our group and have found

help from the field of consciousness

In this sense our group journey has been evolutionary. We began with a different focus 14

years ago and we have moved to a different frequency and focus as an evolutionary

process. Following this musical law, the atmosphere itself established in collective

consciousness is itself evolutionary.

The leader becomes a part of the field also. It is an incredible process; it is a musical

process that describes the movement, development and growth of any enterprise. It is

predictable that any relationship will have difficulties and we need to find ways to go beyond

that.

Everything is of nature. I love looking to nature for answers. What kind of

results have organizations achieved using your approach?

Victoria: In terms of the people involved in Vistar Foundation, I think it has completely

changed our lives both internally and externally. The method has an awakening power.

A different sense of self emerges when we come together. It has its challenges, when you

take it to the outer life and live it in our outer life. In terms of how they see themselves,

what they see their limits are, relationship with other people, family challenges have

transformed, and people are better able to face challenges in the society.

We have had done workshops with other groups, with amazing results very quickly. One of

the questions that comes up when people hear about our method is can we do this, you

have been doing this for 14 years?

Absolutely yes, it really does not take time once one becomes conscious of its potential and

some of the ways of accessing the field. If you look at Athletic teams, when you hear Phil

Jackson talking about Chicago Bulls… where there is a sudden transformation within the

group the way they work together as a group, they are actually experiencing collective

consciousness so that the whole team comes alive in an amplified way. This happens in

meetings when the atmosphere comes alive.

People who have never sung before who are willing to follow the rules are able to transcend

and can sing. Professional singers feel more of a connection and feel they are singing from a

different place.

Just seeing the results in terms of production in people is amazing. In a minute the

limitations are gone. The transformation is clear.

Betsy: How much of this was initiated form Ron being in the nature, knowing how people

are being removed from nature, where are his thoughts about that?

Ron: We would recommend that people go out into nature… but it is not even so much the

contact with nature, it has to do with where are we in our ability to listen to take in nature.

And that is why the rules are the way they are, our freedom to contact, we can go out to

nature and not really be there.

The issue of relationship to nature is the same relationship to each other… when we are able

to listen to each other and put aside our mechanical responses and to take in the mystery of

another person, then we will naturally gravitate to nature and other people. It does not help

to tell people to go out to nature without changing their ability to relate to nature.

Tell us how people learn more about you and where would people go from

here.

Victoria: Check out our website www.vistarfoundation.org, where we have a summary of

the Vistar Method. We are offering workshops, introductory sessions, and we will be doing

a presentation for UN in Manhattan soon.

We provide phone consultations geared individually. We are looking at conferences in

California for next fall in 2009. Our plan is to let people see what happens when they come

together, some of it is obviously miraculous. We want to make people conscious of what can

really happen.

Closing

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