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The Real Truth about the P-38 Lightning?From: [email protected] (CDB100620)

Subject: P-38 as best (was Re: Zero, P-40B...)Date: 12 Aug 1996

I'm offering the suggestion that the P-38L (and later J models) was the

best all-around fighter aircraft of World War II, not based on the numbers

or book references, but on the views of two WWII pilots who flew the

aircraft,and others in combat. One was my father-in-law, Elliott Dent(who

posted once to this group when he was visiting me) and Sidney Woods,a WWII

buddy of my father-in- law who fought in both Europe and the Pacific. I'll

refer to them as Elliott and Sidney.

Elliott flew P-40s in combat with the 49 FG before switching to P-38s.He

liked the P-40. His only complaint, and it was a major one, was that the

model he flew mostly, the N, was a pig at altitude.

The P-38, however, was a vast improvement. Things he cited as making the P-

38 superior to other WWII fighters:

First and foremost (although usually overlooked by nonpilots) was its

tricycle landing gear. WWII fighters had landing speeds too high for

conventional gear.There was always that critical point in landing when speed

had dropped such that the rudder was ineffective, yet the tail was still in

the air and trying to use wheel braking to control direction would collapse a

gear or lead to a ground loop. Exhausted pilots returning from multi-hour

combat missions didn't need the final challenge of a fast landing in a tail-

dragger. The P-38 floated in and planted itself. If you came in a little

fast, you could use the dive brakes to slow down before your wheels touched.

I'm sure everyone has seen the film of that F4U landing at Guadalcanal that

balloons and floats down the runway forever. That sort of thing couldn't

happen with a P-38.

Second, two engine reliability. Especially on long over-water flights,

the security of having a spare engine in case one quit, simply can't be

appreciated by a non-combat pilot. As much as he liked the P-40, Elliott

recalls that the tension of listening intently to the engine--what was that

noise? Was that a miss? Did it just stutter?--soaked his flight suit with

sweat. And many a compatriot who reported engine trouble and broke out of

formation was never heard from again.

Third, range. The P-38 could go where the action was, or trade range for

payload and carry a bomber's load. Only the P-51D and P-47N (which came

along very late in the war) were in its range playground.

Fourth, let's call steadiness. With engines turning in opposite

directions, the P-38 was stable in all maneuvers and could roll equally

well right or left. The big-engined, big-propped singles had torque and P-

factor problems that became increasingly pronounced as speed dropped, as in a

dog fight (which you shouldn't get into, of course, but sometimes you do

anyway). They always rolled faster one way than the other. The P-38 driverjust rolled the way they couldn't to escape. On the ground this made them

genuinely dangerous to operate.

Fifth, firepower concentration and range. The P-38's nose gun arrangement

got rid of all the problems of wing guns, specifically the need to be within

a specific range for the fire to tell. Anywhere within 1,000 yards would

give you hits. Given the tendency for inexperienced pilots to open fire too

far away, the P-38 offered the greatest chance for strikes. Much wing-gun

fire was wasted, especially by low-combat time pilots who fired at twice or

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three times nominal range. In head-on attacks, where it is virtually

impossible to hold your fire until you hit the "sweet spot" where the wing

guns converge, the P-38's advantage of pointing yourself at the enemy and

holding the trigger down was significant.

Sixth,dive brakes. Any aircraft that could reach the vicinity of 400 mph at

20,000 feet would have compressibility problems in a dive. Only the P-38J/L

offered a solution.

Elliot was credited with six kills and five probables. Among other medals,

he was awarded the DSC, the DFC, the Air Medal, the Purple Heart. He flew 251

combat missions. He piloted the P-40 and P-38 in combat, the P-39 and P-51

stateside.

Sidney flew P-40s and P-38s with the 49FG. He participated in the Battle of

the Bismark Sea. He flew 112 combat missions with the 49th. After a rest

stateside, he went to the 4th FG in Europe. He flew 68 combat missions in

Europe in P-51s. I don't know what he may have flown stateside.

Sidney shot down two Japanese planes with the 49th and 10 with the 4th

(one of these on the ground, as the USAAF in the ETO counted aircraft

destroyed on the ground as kills. The USAAF in the PTO did not). Five ofthe air kills were FW-190s. Among the medals awarded him that I know about,

were the Silver Star, the DFC, the Croix de Guerre and the Air Medal.

Sidney described the Mustang as a super P-40. He did not consider it in the

same class with the P-38. He often said that the P-40 and P-51

represented pre-war air combat thinking, and that the P-38 represented the

future. That's a broad statement, and I can't recall his specific reasons for

making it, but it does give you a sense of his feeling for the aircraft.

Sidney said that were he flying the P-38 in Europe he could have shot down

more planes than he did. On more than one occasion, for example, he noted

that while he was closing in to wing-gun range an FW would execute one of its

fabulous snap-rolls and split-S away. Had he been in a P-38 he could have

opened fire seconds earlier, gained strikes for certain, possibly destroying

the aircraft.

Sidney believed the poor showing of the P-38 in the ETO was the result of AAF

brass, who, pre-war were wedded to the unescorted heavy bomber

concept, and didn't dare admit, in the face of terrible bomber losses,

that they had a perfectly capable fighter capable of escorting their

bombers from day one to the farthest target they ventured to--but they

chose not to use it. Instead, they mutually, if unconsciously, fixed on

every reason they could find to discount the P-38 as a capable fighter. They

could then say they had no choice but to go unescorted until the P-51 came

along. Had they said, Yeah, we had a good escort fighter in the P-38 but

decided not to use it, congressional committees would have been demanding to

know who screwed the pooch (his phrase).

As far as a combat type went, I recall Sidney talking about how it wasimpossible to overshoot an aerial target in a dive with the P-38. If you saw

that you were overtaking faster than you liked, you popped the speed brakes.

Couldn't do that with any other plane. He also liked the low speed

maneuvering flaps, the hydraulically boosted ailerons, and the overall

ruggedness of the airplane.He felt that the AAF made a mistake in not

standardizing the P-38 as "the" fighter and having Republic and North

American build it as well as Lockheed.

L.S.



?From: [email protected] (CDB100620)

Subject: Re: P38 in Europe? A success?Date: 17 Dec 1996

Thirteen P-38 FGs were deployed in Europe and Med Theaters:

1, 14, 20, 55, 78, 81, 82, 350, 364, 367, 370, 474, 479.

Photo recon versions of the P-38 (F-4 and F-5) served in Europe and the

Med in five PRGs:

3, 5, 10, 67, 68.

The 1FG and 14FG were first to receive P-38 in spring, 1941.

P-38s equipped a total of 27 FG and 10 PRG.

In Europe, the P-38 flew some 130,000 sorties. That compares with about

214,000 for the P-51 and 423,000 for the P-47.

Aside from about 20 F-4/5s given to the Free French air force, only the

USAAF used P-38s during the war (a handful of non-turbo, non-handed

versions went to and were rejected by the RAF). One of these proved the

coffin of Antoine de Saint Exupery, author of "Wind, Sand and Stars" and

other aviation literature standards, who disappeared on a flight over

southern France, 31 July, 1944.

The first German plane shot down by the USAAF in WWII is generally

credited to a P-38 on 14 Aug., 1942, an FW-200C downed by Elza Shaham of 342

Composite FG.

The first allied fighters over Berlin were P-38s of the 55FG on 3 March, 1944.

The 1FG was the only USAAF fighter group during the war to win two

Presidential Unit Citations in less than a week, for actions in the MTO.

On two occasions, once in the Pacific and once in the Med, a lone P-38

escorting a group of bombers succeeded in driving off numbers of enemy

fighters attempting to attack the bombers, in each case shooting down one e/a

that got too close. The Pacific incident involved a P-38 from the 475FG,

which shot down a Ki-61 from a gaggle going after B-25s, and the Med incident

involved a P-38 from the 1FG that shot down an Me-109 from a gaggle going

after B-25s. In each case, the lone P-38 had been late off the runway,

missed the rendezvous and proceeded on alone hoping to catch up to the rest

of the squadron, which was, in each case, turned back by bad weather that the

late starter missed.

The leading P-38 aces in the Med were Micheal Brezas who shot down 12

German planes (2 Me-210, 4 Me-109, 6 FW-190) while serving with the 14FG, and

William Sloan, who shot down 12 German and Italian a/c (6 Me-109, 2 Mc-200, 1Mc-202, 1 Re-2001, 1 Ju-88, 1 Do-217) while serving with the 82FG.

The 55FG began operations out of England on 15 Oct., 1943, one day after

Black Thursday when some 60 B-17s were lost on the second Schweinfurt raid.

First encounter with Luftwaffe on 3 Nov., shot down 3 Me-109 with no loss to

selves. On 5 Nov., down five Me-109s with no loss. On 13 Nov., in a

sprawling, large-scale battle, shot down 3 FW-190, 2 Ju-88, 1 Me-109, 1 Me-

210 but lost 5 P-38s shot down. Two more were lost due to engine problems.

On 29 Nov. 7 P-38s were shot down for the loss of no German planes.

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Col Mark Hubbel took over the 20th on 17 March. He believed the P-38

was an excellent fighter against Luftwaffe and proved it by promptly shooting

down 2 Me-109 and sharing a third with his wingman. He may have downed a

fourth Me-109 which he was seen pursuing as it streamed smoke in a dive. He

was last seen chasing yet another Me-109, this time through the door of a

church. Neither planes nor church survived the encounter.

During the late winter of 1944 occurred the famous dual between a

Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG. Col. Lowell few the P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass. Lowell was able to

get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot

did. Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the

P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to

repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back

off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he

called a "cloverleaf" maneuver. After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft.

altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree angle, not vertically

down). Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38

almost hit the ground. After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the

engagement and flew home. This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the

ground.

Ultimately 7 P-38 FGs were operational in northern Europe. The 474th was theonly one to retain the P-38 till the end of the war. As pilots grew used to

the plane and developed confidence in it, it successes against the Luftwaffe

grew. On 7 July, '44, P-38s of the 20FG downed 25 out of 77 e/a destroyed

that day, the highest of any group.

The last UK-based P-38 ace was Robin Olds of the 479FG. On 14 Aug., '44,

while flying alone, he encountered two FW-190s and engaged them in a

dogfight, shooting both down.

On 25 Aug, P-38s from 367 encountered FW-190s of JG-6, a top Luftwaffe

unit. Wild, low-level battle ensued in which 8 P-38s and 20 FW-190s were

down. Five of the FWs were shot down by Capt. Lawrence Blumer. 367

received a Presidential Unit Citation as a result of this battle.

On the same day, P-38s from 474 shot down 21 FW-190s for the loss of 11

P-38s. The same day Olds' of 479 downed three Me-109s in a running battle

that saw his canopy shot off.On 26 Sept., P-38s of the 479 downed 19 e/a near Munster. Shortly after that

most P-38s were gradually replaced by P-51s.

The last long-range bomber escort in northern Europe by P-38s was on 19

Nov. '44 when 367FG escorted bombers to Merzig, Germany. FW-190s

attempted to intercept. P-38s downed six with no losses. No bombers were

lost either. It was a good way to end the P-38s air-superiority role in

northern Europe

?From: [email protected] (CDB100620)Subject: Re: P38 in Europe? A success?Date: 19 Dec 1996

The cockpit heating problem was taken care of on the P-38L, the definitive

Lightning, which made up about half the production run. But that didn't help

pilots in the ETO or MTO in 1943 and early 1944. There were many cases of

pilots being forced to abort mission because their hands and feet were

frostbitten.





One problem the P-38 had in dealing with the Me-109, but not the FW-190

(which was more of a low and mid-altitude fighter) was the Me's high

altitude performance superiority. Above 25,000 ft., cooling or

supercharger impeller or turbine speeds became limiting for the Lockheed, and

high speed capability started to fall off. At low altitudes, the plane could

max out at about 330-340 mph. This rose to well above 400 mph between 25,000

to 30,000. As the plane approached 30,000 ft, speeds over Mach 0.60 could besustained in level flight. Thus, maneuvering could quickly give the plane

compressibility problems. At Mach 0.65 (290 mph IAS, 440 mph TAS at 30,000

ft.; 360 mph IAS, 460 mph TAS at 20,000 ft.) drag began to soar as the plane

began to encounter compressibility. At Mach 0.67 shock waves began forming

and buffeting began at Mach 0.675. At Mach 0.74 tuck under began. Buffeting

developed at a lower Mach number in any maneuver exceeding 1 g.

What this meant to a pilot in combat in say, a P-38H such as that used by the

55FG or 20FG circa Jan. '44, was that if, at high altitude such as Me-109s

preferred approaching bomber formations, he locked on to the e/a and it

split-S'ed and dove away (typical Luftwaffe evasive maneuver), if he

attempted to follow, his P-38 would start to vibrate, then start bucking like

a rodeo bronco, the control column would begin flail back and forth so

forcefully it would probably be ripped out of his hands and begin pounding

him to crap. Once the plane dropped down to lower altitude where the speedof sound was higher, the buffeting declined and the trim tab could be used to

haul the airplane out of what seemed to be a death dive.

Recovery with trim tab resulted in 5 g pull-out. Many a low-time service

pilot would be so shaken by this experience that he would never dive the P-38

again, and might be so afraid of the airplane that his usefulness as a

fighter pilot was over.

The late J and L models solved this problem with the installation of a

dive flap. Extend the flaps at the beginning of a dive and all problems were

eliminated. Again, these models weren't available in the critical period

between fall 1943 and spring 1944 when the most desperate battles against the

Luftwaffe took place, and when the P-38s rep in Europe was established.

The reason P-38s were as successful as they were in Europe (and it should be

kept in mind they performed their escort role before it was decided to free

the fighters from the bombers to seek out e/a on favorable terms so they werealways forced to engage on unfavorable terms) was at least in part because

they were wonderful aerobatic airplanes with absolutely no maneuvers

restricted except the dive. Loops, Immelmans, slow and snap rolls, Cuban

eights...it could perform them all with perfection. It had a wonderful

ability to perform in the vertical, with an excellent rate of climb, splendid

zoom climb. It could easily change direction while executing vertical

maneuvers. It was also a very stable gun platform, being stable and very

smooth while executing maneuvers.

In contrast, the P-51, had far fewer compressibility problems at speeds

normally encountered in combat, including dives from high altitude. The D

model was placarded at 300 mph IAS (539 mph TAS, Mach 0.81) at 35,000 ft.

In a dive, the P-51 was such an aerodynamically clean design that it could

quickly enter compressibility if the dive was continued (in reality, a pilotcould, as a rule, catch any German plane before compressibility became a

problem). But, say, in an evasive dive to escape, as the P-51's speed in the

dive increased, it started skidding beyond what the pilot could control (this

could be a problem in a dive onto a much lower-flying plane or ground

target--couldn't keep the plane tracking on the target if speed was too

high). As compressibility was entered, it would start rolling and pitching

and the whole plane would begin to vibrate. This began about Mach 0.72.

The pilot could maintain control to above Mach 0.80 (stateside tests said



0.83 (605 mph) was max safe speed—but structural damage to the aircraft would

result).

The P-51's quirk that could catch the unprepared service pilot by surprise

was that as airspeed built up over 450 mph, the plane would start to get very

nose heavy. It needed to be trimmed tail heavy before the dive if speeds

over 400 mph were anticipated. However, in high speed dives, the plane's

skidding changed to unintended snap rolls so violent that the pilot's head

was slammed against the canopy. Depending on how much fuel was in thefuselage tank, on pull-out stick force reversal could occur, a real thrill

that could totally flummox a low-time service pilot diving earthward at close

to 1,000 ft per second trying to escape a pursuer.

The P-51 was a good dogfighter, positively stable under all flight

routines. A pilot didn't have to work hard to get it to the limits of its

flight envelope (that is, he wasn't sweating heaving and pushing and pulling

and kicking to get it to move its ass.) It was important to burn down fuel

in the fuselage tank to avoid longitudinal instability.

Cranking into a tight turn with too much go-juice in the tank would mean

instant stick force reversal and the pilot had to brace himself to oppose the

stick slamming backward into his solar plexus, and shove hard to prevent the

turn from tightening till, if he was lucky, he entered a high speed stall,

or, if unlucky, the wing ripped off.

Turns above 250 mph IAS were the killers, because they resulted in gforces high enough to black out the pilot so that he couldn't oppose the

stick reversal and the Mustang would, unattended, wind itself up into a wing-

buster.

So, which plane would rather go into combat against the Luftwaffe in?


Subject: Re: best ww2 plane surveyDate: 28 Aug 1997

Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii

>The P-38... had two heavy engines set out on the wings, way out from the

center of gravity for rolling, with the result that it had a poor roll rate.

The P-38 did not want to roll at all when aileron force was first applied

(inertial resistance), so there was a heartbeat of hesitation, then the plane

would very sluggishly begin to roll. This sluggishness persisted through

about 10 degrees of roll, after which the rate of roll became very good; in

fact, with the aileron boost of the later J and L models, the faster the

plane was going, the faster the rate of roll, giving the plane a terrific

advantage in high-speed maneuver combat.

The initial reluctance of the P-38 to enter a roll was easily

counteracted: throttle back the inside engine briefly as as you turn theyoke, then bring power back up. The plane would snap into a roll so fast it

might knock your head against the canopy. The trick was not to let the plane

get away from you when doing this. It took practice to get it right and

make it an automatic action, especially during the heat of combat.

The P-38 was splendidly maneuverable and had an excellent rate of climb

and rapid rate of acceleration. And, of course, its concentrated nose

armament was a distinct advantage. A good case could be made for the later

versions being not only the best American fighter of the war, but the best

piston-engine fighter, period. It flew the longest escort missions of the

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war (2200 miles round trip to the Borneo oil fields from bases in New

Guinea), successfully battling such very capable fighters as the Ki-44 over

the target. A P-38 fighter group (the 1FG in the MTO) was the only USAAF

fighter unit to win two Presidential Unit Citations within the space of 5

days (one PUC was for a long-range low level attack against Axis airfields at

Foggia, Italy flown from bases in North Africa, the other was for a bomber

escort mission during which some 30 P-38s fought off about 125 German

fighters, not letting a single bomber be shot down).The P-38's Achilles Heel was its high cost: the Army could buy two P-51s for

the price of one P-38. Lockheed had never expected to mass-produce the

design and did not engineer it for easy assembly, unlike the P-51, one of the

chief unsung virtues of which was its ease of manufacture. The P-38 was also

more expensive and time-consuming to maintain than single-engine fighters.

Here's an excerpt of a Luftwaffe expert's (Heinz Knoke, 52 kills, all in the

West) description of a duel with a P-38 (from "I Flew for the Fuhrer"):"...At

once I peel off and dive into the Lightnings below. They spot us and swing

round towards us to meet the attack.... Then we are in a madly milling

dogfight...it is a case of every man for himself. I remain on the tail of a

Lightning for several minutes. It flies like the devil himself, turning,

diving, and climbing almost like a rocket. I am never able to fire more than

a few pot-shots...."


Subject: Re: BEST Piston Fighter Date: 08 Jan 1998

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military

The "all-P-38 all the time" (other groups had various types at different

times) 475FG is officially credited with destroying 547 Japanese aircraft in

aerial combat while losing just 27 planes to enemy air action. That gives

them a kill ratio of 20.25:1.


Subject: Re: Best piston engine fighter ?Date: 12 Jan 1998


Dick Bong flew against Zekes and Oscars. The P-38 had a good record

against the second division opponents in the east. In the west, where up to

1943 the Luftwaffe was the yardstick, P-38s were not very good. P-38 units

occasionally suffered severe defeats at the hands of the Luftwaffe in Italy

in a way that P-47 or P-51 never did.

Greatest single loss of P-51s on a combat mission in the ETO for P-51s=11(363FG); for the P-38 = 8 (55FG).

The first quadruple kill by the USAAF in the ETO was accomplished by a P-38,

which downed 3 FW-190s and 1 Me-109. The three FWs were downed in a classic,

turning dogfight.

Re the P-47, Gen. Frank Hunter, commander of VIII Fighter Command, told Gen

Ira Eaker that the P-47 was not an effective escort fighter and did not want

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to send his fighters on maximum-range missions until he had enough aircraft

to crush the Luftwaffe by sheer numbers.

USAAF boss Hap Arnold, discussing the P-38 vs. the P-47 in a letter to Eaker

in June, 1943, wrote: "I can't help but compare the excellent results

accomplished with the P-38...and the meager results accomplished by your

Fighter Command equipped with [the P-47].

Hunter himself described the P-38 as "a wonderful ship." (This is similarto the comment on the P-38 made by George Preddy, the leading Mustang ace.

In his diary he notes of the P-38: "This is a wonderful flying ship." About

the P-47 he wrote, "This is a nice flying ship." Later he wrote, "Sure

getting disappointed in the P-47." About the P-51 he wrote, "It's a good

flying ship.")

Demand was so great for the P-38 in North Africa and the Pacific, however,

that there was an insufficient supply and so, by default, the P-47 stayed in

the ETO.

Sid Woods flew against the Japanese with the 49FG (one confirmed kill). He

flew against the Germans with the 479FG and as CO of the 4FG (nine confirmed

kills). He considered the Japanese tougher foes than the Germans, the pilots

more skillful, aggressive and determined, the airplanes they flew formidable

fighters.

A PTO ditty ran:

"Don't give me a P-51.

It was all right for fighting the Hun,

But if fighting the Jap you try,

You'll run out of sky.

Don't give me a P-51."

The success of SWPA army pilots against the Japanese was a result of good

tactics. From the get-go, they flew free bomber escort, and ran fighter

sweeps ahead of bomber formations to break up intercepting fighter

formations. In combat areas, they flew "loose goose" formations with 1,000

ft. between planes, the element leader and wingman free to exchange positions

as the tactical situation warranted.In Europe, tactics were much poorer. In the MTO, throughout the war, pilots

were required to "beehive" around bombers, and were required to fly in units

no smaller than the four-ship flight, which did not break up into two-ship

elements. This meant one shooter and three wingmen, the No 4 man being like

the last kid in a crack-the-whip game. Once maneuvering began he could not

possibly maintain station and thus was frequently shot down.

In the ETO, while the two-ship element was allowed, the formation was very

tight, thus limiting ACM options. And, especially in the early days of long-

range fighter escort, they were forced to stick very close to the bombers--75

ft. at one time.

It's astonishing army pilots had any success in Europe at all employing such

poor tactics. Had army pilots fighting the Japanese used such poor tactics,

the Japanese would have mopped the floor with them.


Subject: Re: P-38 - Best piston engine fighter ?Date: 14 Jan 1998






Despite the presence of the P-38, the Germans appeared to be relatively

undeterred in their attacks on bomber formations

On 3 Nov. 1943 P-38s escorted bombers to Wilhemshaven. While the German

fighters were, as a result of the efforts of the P-38 drivers, only able to

shoot down three bombers, German fighter losses were sufficiently heavy,

II/JGS suffering particularly badly (curiously, the 55FG pilots only claimed

three e/a destroyed), that Gen. Galland held a special meeting with IJagdkorps' division commanders the next day. One of the key decisions made

at this meeting was to have the "wild sow" single-engine night fighter force

transferred to day jobs to counter the P-38s. (Here we have what could be

called "escort-once-removed"--P-38s were, in a way, performing "escort

duties" for RAF's Bomber Command--drawing fighters away from them.) And it

was

acknowledged that the era of the twin-engined interceptor as an significant

factor, was ended.

On Nov. 13, 45 P-38 escorted bombers to Bremen. Only two bombers were lost to

fighter interception. Throughout Nov and Dec, although the 8AF was sending

double the no. of bombers against German targets it had in the fall, losses

were never more than about 5 percent of the attacking force, and were often

only a mere handful--on the Dec. 13, 1943 mission against Hamburg, for

example, out of a force of 648 bombers, only 5 were lost. Many German fighterformations approached the bombers on this day, but when they saw the fighter

escorts, refused to engage.

At the end of Dec. Galland and the staff of Jagdkorp I admitted that their

tactics against escorted bomber formations had failed.

So before the P-51 became a significant factor in the air war over Europe,

the Luftwaffe was stymied. It should be noted, of course, that this was not

due to the P-38 being some sort of a "superfighter" as much as that it was

good enough to get the job done (just how good being a subject for debate),

which was all that was required.


Subject:Re: Best piston engine fighter ?Date: 14 Jan 1998


Imagine yourself in a fighter, flying towards a life and death combat

situation knowing you couldn't dive vertically or exceed a certain speed

limit or you might never recover from the dive?

That's pretty much true of any fighter of the era, and not unique to the P-

38. It's well documented that P-38 pilots in the ETO were afraid to dive

after German fighters, who quickly realized that fact, and took advantage of

it. The problem was not so much the P-38 as the familiarization of the

pilots with the characteristics of the P-38 and how to handle them. In the

case of a dive from high altitude in a P-38, the procedures was throttles to

idle--let gravity dothe work--when buffeting begins, bank right and left to slow the descent

(doing this also helps you keep an eye on what's going on around you).

Pretty straight forward. Why this wasn't practiced in the ETO is a question,

but much the USAAF did, fighter-wise, in the ETO is questionable.

Note also that if a pilot is intent on following an e/a all the way down in a

dive, he doesn't necessarily have to have a superior dive speed to his foe

(in fact, if he does, he will very likely overshoot), but he does need to be

able to keep him in sight until his foe pulls out of his dive. Actually,

being some distance behind your foe in a dive rather than being right on his





tail is the best position to be in, because it means he has most likely lost

sight of you and presumes himself safe, and, once he levels out or begins to

climb, his speed bleeds off rapidly while you still have the downhill

advantage. More

than one Lightning pilot in the Pacific was downed by a much slower diving

Zero that persisted in following him down and then reeled him in once he

leveled off. That's why the veteran P-38 driver in the Pacific would

immediately go into a corkscrew climb at the completion of a dive in order toclear his tail of any trailing e/a.

If the Me-109, for example, were able to outdive a P-38, the P-38 driver

could have reeled him in when he leveled out, or, if he were so far ahead as

preclude that, the superior low-level speed of the P-38 would have brought

him into gun range. Should the Me pilot have chosen to zoom climb, the P-

38's superior zoom ability would have come into play.

The real problem the P-38 pilot faced in the fall of 1943 in the ETO was, on

an equipment basis, the fact that the Me-109, in particular, had very good

initial acceleration in the dive--even better than a P-40 (which, given time,

could overhaul a diving Me). This would allow the Me driver to escape the

attention of the Lightning pilot, who was, in those days, constrained to stay

close to the bombers and so would not follow a diving Me 109 very far in any

case.

Weather was another major factor. Limiting it to the situation in immediateair combat, the superior initial acceleration of the Me over the P-38 would

enable it to disappear into clouds and escape.

Then there is the matter of training, with 55FG pilots having as little as 20

hours time in the P-38 before being sent on long-range missions in the

European winter, a time when, traditionally, fighter operations wound down.

The P-38 pilots faced an almost impossible job in the ETO with equipment that

had not yet been optimized for that job. Merely flying a single-seat fighter

in the kind of weather they encountered on such a long flight was a major

feat.

To escort bombers and fend off fighters while being forced to employ

incorrect tactics made their job almost impossible. Yet they accomplished

the job they were assigned--reduce bomber losses to fighter interception.

Even during the war, the P-38, P-47 and P-51 each had adherents who arguedthe favorable points of each, sometimes quite vehemently, and, obviously, the

arguments continue today. Capt. Jim Tapp was training supervisor of the 78FS

of the 21FG temporarily based at Bellows while it transitioned from P-47s to

P-51s. One day, he was flying a P-47 in company with two P-51s when they

were bounced by two P-38s. "They ended up chasing each other in a circle

with the performance pretty equal. I had the P-47 wide open and was turning

inside all

of them, but they seemed to be making two circles to my one. The P-47 would

have done better high up, but even at altitude the 47 wasn't a match for the

51 or 38."

Later, the P-47 adherents challenged the P-51 buffs to a race. A P-47D-26

belonging to the group CO, Col. Beckworth, was stripped of bomb racks, gone

over with extra care by the ground crew and waxed till it shone. Capt. Tapp

grabbed the first available P-51D he could sign out. The duo met up overKaena Point at 30,000 and headed for Bellows. When the P-47 was at full

throttle and full rpm, Tapp asked, "Is that all you've got?" When he

received an affirmative, he opened the Mustang's throttle to "full goose

bozo" position and simply ran away from the Jug. Tapp was back on the ground

sipping a Coke when

the Col's. P-47 touched down.

In a mock dogfight between the Mustang and the Lightning, the skilled P-38

driver would fight in the vertical, taking advantage of his superior climb

speed and aerobatic ability. The skilled Mustang pilot would attempt to



extend away and come back unobserved. Once either locked onto the tail of

the other, it would be very difficult to shake. The P-38 driver in such a

situation would want to work the speed of the engagement down into the stall

area where the Mustang couldn't follow him. He could also split-S, dive and

zoom, probably losing the P-51. The Mustang pilot with a P-38 on his tail had

fewer options.

At high altitude, he could point the nose at the ground and keep it there

till the Lightning dwindled, then zoom climb into a fast, shallow climb toextend away.

Interesting that the twin-engine fighter would have the advantage in a slow

turning contest, or in the vertical--loops, split-Ss.

What would typically happen if a Mustang bounced a Lightning would be that

the P-38 would split-S, the Mustang would follow through the roll but keep on

diving for some distance before pulling out, then circle around for another

try at a bounce. The Lightning pilot would continue the split-S up into a

loop and scan the sky for the Mustang. Typically, he would spot him some

distance below beginning a pull out. The Lightning driver would finish the

loop and fall on the climbing Mustang, locking onto his tail. The smart

Mustang pilot would

reduce the chance of this by rolling out of his escape dive into a climb in a

different direction. He might do a corkscrew climb. The "winner" of the

dogfight would be the pilot who better kept sight of his foe, who betteranticipated what his foe would do next, and who knew what to do with his own

airplane to counter that anticipated move; in other words, the better pilot

won--not the airplane.


Subject: Re: P-38 - Best piston engine fighter ?Date: 14 Jan 1998


Specifically the strike to Regensburg and the two to

Schweinfurt are good examples of catastrophic losses.

Through the first 10 months of 1943, 8AF bomber losses averaged 9 percent a

month. Once long-range escorts began accompanying the bombers in November,

the figure dropped to 3 percent. In 1944, sometimes the figure rose to the 5

percent level, but once the bombers had escorts, the unsupportable losses

ended. The chief reason was that the twin-engined "rocket ships"--which took

a serious toll of the bombers--were no longer able to leisurely form up and

execute attacks unmolested. Neither were single-engined fighters able to

motor

ahead of the bomber formations and prepare head-on attacks undisturbed.

The truth is that had a long-range P-47 been available, it would have

achieved the same result as the P-38 did initially in Nov and Dec and the P-

51 did later. The key was fighter escort all the way to the target.

?From: [email protected] (CDB100620)Subject: Re: P-38 - Best piston engine fighter ?/Better than Me 109Date: 27 Jan 1998


>>my impression is that the Messerschmitt was that it was

worse in [landing accidents] than any other fighter in the war.

More so than the P-38?


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Other than a fairly high sink rate, the P-38 was a sweetheart to land (or

takeoff), thanks to its tricycle landing gear. In particular, crosswind

landings were no problem at all.

The P-38 had so many positive attributes from a piloting perspective, from

easy taxiing to harmless power-on stalls, that it makes no sense to compare

it with the Me 109, which had so few.

It makes more sense to compare the 109 with the P-40, which, I would suspect,was the AAF's take-off and landing crash champ. It took a lot of rudder fed

in early on to keep it going straight. Legions of pilots lost it on take off

or landing. This was probably because the design was originally intended to

have a short radial engine ahead of the main wheels (P-36). The substitution

of a long, heavy liquid-cooled engine, with all the plumbing up front shoved

so much weight forward of the mains that the gear could barely handle it.

When the 49FG was equipped with P-40s after it arrived in Australia (most of

the pilots never having flown one), they busted up 140 of the 330 they were

issued, usually in spectacular ground loops.

Lt. Gen. Hal George and several others were killed as they stepped from a

transport plane that had just landed at Bachelor Field by a P-40 whose pilot

lost it on take-off. The pilot, who was practicing T/Os and landings,

simply let the airplane get away from him when he opened up full throttle on

that big Allison and he veered into the parked transport and the jeep Georgewas getting into. The result was a horrific accident that probably affected

the course of the war, as Gen. George was slated to take command of all the

fighter forces in

the Australia/New Guinea area.

The P-47 might be next in line for the crash on landing trophy, mainly

because the turbo exhaust vented where it could cook the tail wheel, leading

to blowouts which would throw the plane out of control. That was more of a

problem in hot climate operations than in northern Europe.


Subject: Re: Radial EnginesDate: 25 Mar 1998


Finally, the P-38 pilot executed something he refers to as a

"cloverleaf" turn (which I assume is some form of Yo-Yo).

The cloverleaf was a horizontal maneuver that took advantage of the P-38's

exceptionally gentle stall characteristics. It was a low-speed maneuver.

The pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and

let the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....

Viewed from above, the pattern the airplane flew through the air looked

something like a cloverleaf, and this simile was used in teaching the

maneuver.

No German fighter could stay with the P-38 in a turn.

Of course, this manuever was useless against Japanese fighters like the Ki-43and Zero, because they stalled out something like 30 mph slower than the best

the P-38 could do.

In Europe, the first quadruple kill in one combat by the 8AF was scored by

2Lt.James Morris of the 55FG on Feb. 8, 1944. He traded head-on passes with

a pair of FW 190s then turned and got on their tails while they were turning

trying to get on his. He easily outturned them and shot them down. Another

FWs 190 broke away and tried to run. Morris overtook him and shot him down.

Then he tangled with an Me 109 which tried to outdive him. Morris fell on

him like a cast-iron stove.

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Capt. Robin Olds while flying alone when he was bounced by two FW 190s. He

outturned them and shot both down.

In a scrape with the vaunted II/J.G. 6, Capt. Lawrence Blummer of the 367FG

shot down five FW 190s. He was part of a melee that began when 40 FW 190s

bounced 12 P-38s straffing an airfield and the Lightnings' top cover of 12

bounced them in turn. The German pilots claimed 11 Lightnings (seven

actually went down) and the Americans claimed 20 FWs (16 actually went down).

The German unit was so badly mauled that it was withdrawn from combat.The P-38 was a complex aircraft, and required time in the cockpit to learn to

operate it well, but in the hands of a skilled pilot, there was very little

it could not do.


Subject: Re: Radial EnginesDate: 31 Mar 1998


>Or is it that the turn was all in horizontal plane with no

vertical maneuvering ?

Your understanding of the maneuver seems spot on.

It was not a common maneuver, but a sort of last ditch hole card. Gerry

Johnson, ops exec of the 49FG used it to break contact with a Ki-44 he was in

a rough one-on-one with on a mission to the oil refineries of the DEI in the

fall of 1944. As he told it, he had fought the Tojo from 24,000 ft. down to

the deck, where it had latched onto his tail. He didn't dare straighten out

and try to run, because it was too close. He couldn't dive. He was forced

to try to out-turn it because he didn't have anything else to try. He

started clover-leafing and, to his great relief, the Tojo was unable to stay

with him and broke off contact, whereupon Johnson, master fighter pilot that

he was,

turned the tables on the Tojo and shot him down.

> Whew ! Outdive a P-38 ? The compressibility King ?

It's been pretty well documented that many P-38 drivers were often afraid to

follow German planes into a dive, especially the 109, which routinely broke

contact by Split-Sing. This has always puzzled me, because the 109 had a

practical dive limit of about 400 mph--well within the P-38's dive range--

because its controls became too heavy. Much has been made of the cold

weather of the northern European winter being a factor, along with the higher

altitudes the ETO boys flew at. But P-38ers in the MTO also seem to

frequently have been afraid to dive after 109s, and they flew in warm weather

and at moderate altitudes, doing a lot of medium bomber escorting.

In the SWPA, the Ki-61 had similar--if not somewhat better--dive

characteristics to the Me 109, yet no P-38 driver ever hesitated to plunge

after a Tony. The trick in the dive was: throttles to idle before droppingthe nose below the horizon, bank left and right to slow when buffeting began.

Pretty straight forward. In any case, compressibility was not a problem for

any model P-38 if the dive were entered from below 25,000 ft.

One thought is that most P-38 drivers in the SWPA transitioned from the P-40,

a diving sonofagun if there ever was one, or P-39 (also a good diver), and

they were used to making terminal velocity dives to save their hides. Both

these planes would yaw quite badly as speed built up in the dive and could

otherwise be disconcerting.

Aside from buffeting, which could easily be controlled, the P-38 was a





sweetheart in a dive compared to a P-40, so PTO pilots who had cut their

combat teeth on the Curtiss or Bell never had reason to fear it. If the ETO

boys were entering combat in the P-38, all the shock and confusion of first-

time combat would have been thrown onto the P-38, and its quirks magnified.

Just a guess.

> Do you know what version P-38 this was ?

J-10.

Many pilots considered this the worst of the Lightings, despite the much

better intercooler situation. Some preferred the G and--especially--the H,

which was substantially lighter than the early J. Their lighter weight and

somewhat better streamlining gave them excellent initial acceleration and a

general nimbleness lacking in the first of the J series. In the Pacific, at

least, these early models were able to follow the half-roll-split-S and dive

of a

Japanese fighter such as the Ki-61, whereas the early Js, being heavier,

generally would not be able to, and if the pilot tried, he could get in

trouble. The later Js and especially the Ls had no such trouble.

My guess is that what happened with the P-38 in the ETO was some pilots dove

after e/a without throttling back first, and when they ran into

compressibility didn't understand or notice (perhaps being mentally fixatedon the aircraft they were pursuing), then became alarmed and confused when

the control column began slamming them in the gut as the whole plane began to

shake, the dive steepened all by itself, and the plane did not respond to

their control imputs.

Definitely a scarey situation. If they survived, they told their buddies of

their experience in very graphic detail....

They also might have lost a nimble plane like the 190 when it rolled into a

split-S and gotten shot down (or at least shot at) by the FW's wingman who

would have no trouble rolling with them into the split-S. That certainly

happened with Japanese fighters like the Ki-43 and Ki-44 in the Pacific

especially with the early Js.

The handful of exceptional fighter pilots who made multiple kills in air

combat were generally superb fliers who easily understood and masteredwhatever airplane they were assigned to fly. Morris was obviously such a

one. I suspect he would have been a formidable opponent even were he in a P-

26. As luck would have it, he was shot down by the rear gunner of an Me 410

while on a mission over Germany, remaining a guest of that country until the

war ended, so his final score was not as high as it might otherwise have been.


Subject: Re: Airacobra questionDate: 16 Apr 1998


I'm not so sure about the "improved survivability of 2 engines".

>

If you lose an engine on a P-51, you're certain not going to

get home. If you lose an engine on a P-38, you may get

home but the odds are stacked against you. The problem is, you've

got twice as many opportunities to lose an engine on a

P-38.

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The P-38 flew just fine on one engine (it wouldn't taxi worth a damn,

however).It was *the* preferred fighter in the Pacific because of the

extra margin of safety it provided.

In his journal, Charles Lindbergh recounts one mission when he was low cover

for B-24s and lost an engine. He climbed up to fly with the heavies and

noted that he had to throttle back to stay with them--even though he had one

windmill feathered!


Subject: Re: Airacobra questionDate: 16 Apr 1998


Nearly as serious. Lose your only engine and you are not going home.

Lose one engine in a twin and you have a fighting chance. I'll take the

second option every time.

During the second Philippines campaign, some P-38 pilots heard a desperate

pilot calling on the radio in a voice on the edge of panic: "I'm losing

coolant! What should I do?" Assuming he was a new Lightning pilot with

little experience, they called back and told him to relax. Just feather the

prop and he'd get back okay. There was a moment of silence, then he

responded, "Feather it, hell! I'm in a P-51!"

There was a corollary experience. Returning from a long mission one day, a

bunch of P-38s, all flying on fumes, were jockeying to land first when a firm

voice came over the radio: "I'm coming in on one engine!" Naturally he got

priority clearance, and everybody looked around to see who was in trouble.

What they saw was a Tac Recon smart ass in a P-40 slipping in on final.

Everybody started swearing--and then started laughing.

?From: [email protected] (CDB100620)Subject: Re: P-51D Escort (Was Re: ME-262 in 1942)Date: 23 Apr 1998


>With Berlin approximately 900 miles round trip from central England, the P-

38F would have to fly at 195 mph with 600 gallons of fuel on board to make

the round trip . Was that fast enough to escort bombers? Airspeed increased

to 305 mph with 230 gas, but range decreased to 350

miles.

In the SWPA the P-38H radius of action was considered to be 575 miles for

mission planning purposes (this was pre-Lindbergh). That was the absolute

outside max, with a provision for 10 minutes of combat power settings. The Jcould add 100 miles to that. Typical missions would range from 4.5 to 6.5

hours. After Lindbergh, the J and L could do 9.5-hour missions. Apparently

the 8AF never focused much on fuel management techniques. The ranges

mentioned in the quoted post would appear to have been flown in auto rich at

relatively high rpm. Also, I believe the P-38s were based in the west of

England, meaning they had to fly considerably farther than fighters based in

the SE of England.


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Never heard of anyone cruising a P-38 (or any other piston fighter) at over

300 mph. Since the heavy bombers cruised at anywhere from 130 to 170 mph, a

195mph cruise would be more than adequate to escort them.

Close escorts at 195 mph would be at a big disadvantage because they would

have an energy deficit compared to any attacking fighters. The advantage of

a free-ranging escort is that it can fly at fuel-conserving speeds until

combat could be "reasonably expected" as the phrase of the day had it, then

pick up speed, say, moving from 185 to 250, then when about to engage, theenemy in sight, go tanks off and balls to the wall.

>If a B-24 can fly 100 feet off the hard deck, why can't a P-38 do it as well?

In the SWPA, P-38s did indeed fly escort on the deck. This was not the

preferred option--that being to have height to dive on any intercepting e/a.

But weather sometimes forced close escort. On one of the Rabaul raids in the

fall of 1943, the cloud base was at 700 ft. The B-25s flew below that and so

did their P-38 escorts. So did the intercepting Japanese fighters. Quite a

furball ensued.

The preferred method of escorting an on-the-deck strike was a fighter sweep

in advance of the bombers to stir up action and suppress it before the dump

trucks arrived. That was also the policy when escorting heavies as well.

>> The P-51D was far from an excellent climbing fighter as

well. It's acceleration was rather poor in comparison

to many of it's contemporaries.

True. The P-38 was the best climber in active USAAF inventory and could

easily leave a P-51 choking on its heel dust. It also had brute acceleration

the P-51 could not match (although the P-51 could accelerate very well

indeed, the P-38

was better). The best accelerating P-38 was the H. Later models were

heavier, although the L got some more beans to play with.

The turbo really came into its own on the P-38 in the climb, providing sea

level horsepower to very high altitudes, so climb was smooth and consistent,

with 100 percent power being available at all altitudes. In earlier models,

inadequate intercooling limited the effectiveness of the turbos at highaltitude. This was corrected from the J. The P-51's two-stage, two-speed

mechanical supercharger caused it to lurch upstairs in a series of steps, HP

beginning to fall off immediately after a "gear change." The switch from the

first stage to the second stage of the supercharger occurred at about 17,000

ft. Just before the shift, the P-51 had performance about on par with a P-

40N at the same altitude. Then when the second stage kicked in, it became a

tiger.

>A fighter in the interceptor role at 14,000 ft?

The bombers dictate at what altitude an interceptor must perform best. If the

bombers come over at 14,000 ft., having a fighter that performs best at

30,000 ft. won't be of much use--that's one reason why the P-39 did well in

Russia and poorly in New Guinea (the Germans came over at low level, theJapanese at high levels).

It's [P-51] handling could be downright nasty with violent departure

and very little accelerated stall warning.

The P-38's stall was a gentle as a J-3's. Power-on stalls, usually fatal in

P-51s (and other single-engine fighters), were a piece of cake in the Thirty-

Eight. It gave plenty of stall warning.



Air combat above 20,000 ft. was, in fact, routine for P-38 pilots in the

SWPA. As was combat at medium altitudes, low altitudes and at altitudes that

were, as the saying went, "lower than the shortest tree in New Guinea."

P-38s didn't fly ground interdiction missions until after the Japanese air

strength was vitiated. That job was mostly handled by P-40s and P-47s, as

well as A-20s and B-25s.

It's worth noting that when the FEAF began receiving P-51s in the fall of

1944, they used them to replace P-40s and P-39s in Tactical Reconnaissanceunits--they did not use them to replace P-38s in Fighter Groups.

>I don't recall seeing P-38's accompanying B-29's to Tokyo.

That was an HQ decision based on rationalizing fighter plane procurement

(Both the P-38 and P-47 were considered for phasing out, along with the P-39,

P-40[both actually phased out] and P-63). The P-38 would have had no

difficulty escorting B-29s to Tokyo, or cleaning house when it got there.

The last dogfight the AAF fought in the war, on the afternoon of Aug. 14,

1945, was fought between P-38Ls and Ki-84 Franks over the Bungo Strait

between Shikoku and Kyushu. Five Lightnings of the 35FS tangled with eight

Ki-84s of the 47th Sentai and sent four of them down for the loss of one of

their own.

The L-5 was considered by those who flew it to be the very best fighter plane

the AAF had; there was simply nothing it could not do, from landing in a

strong crosswind--try that in a P-51--to flying the longest bomber escort

missions of the war (Biak to the DEI oil field refineries), to intercepting

Dinah recon planes at 40,000 ft. to chasing down Kamikazes coming in on the

deck.

That's not to say the P-51 was not a very good airplane, extremely versatile

and capable. But the P-38 was better.

>"There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold

pilots."

Not a maxim fighter pilots ascribe to.

?From: CDB100620 <[email protected]>

Subject: Re: P-51D Escort (Was Re: ME-262 in 1942)Date: 05 May 1998


Re climb and altitude performance of the P-38 vs. the P-51:

It has been stated in this thread that the performance of the P-38 declined

rapidly above 20,000 ft. This is not true.

The pre-J models could maintain sea-level power up to 25,000 ft., whereintercooler limitations began to reduce power. The J/L models could maintain

sea level power up to 30,000 ft., where turbo impeller speed limitations

began to reduce power. In neither case was power reduction sudden or

dramatic.

(Incidentally, the turbocharged P-47 could also maintain sea level horsepower

up to 30,000 ft.)

This means the P-38H would have close to 2500 horsepower (military power)

available at 25,000 ft and the J almost 2900 horsepower (military) at 30,000





ft. (The P-47 would have 2000 hp [military] at 30,000 ft.) The use of War

Emergency Power would boost those figures.

No WWII fighter--bar none--had as much available horsepower at altitudes of

25,000 ft and above as the P-38.

The P-51D with its multi-stage mechanical supercharger saw horsepower

(military) peak at a bit less than 1700 at 8500 ft. At 13,500 ft., it was a

bit over 1300 hp, then it jumped to about 1375 or so at 21,500 ft., after

which it declined steadily. At 25,000 ft. it was down to 1200 hp and at30,000 ft. power was only a little over 700 hp.

(This engine performance deterioration was typical for any mechanically

supercharged aircraft engine, whether the P-51, Spitfire or Me 109.)

The P-51D had only about a third the horsepower available to the P-38H at

30,000 ft. and only about a fourth of that available to the J. Of course,

the P-51 was a lot lighter than the P-38, but still, at a normal gross weight

of 17,700 lbs or so for the P-38J/L (about 1,000 lbs less for the H) and

10,200 lbs for the P-51D, the power loading for the P-38J at 30,000 ft. was

6.2 lbs/hp. (For the P-38H it would be a bit less than 6.7 lbs/hp.) For the

P-51D it was 10.6 lbs/hp. Even at 20,000 ft., where the P-51D was at its

performance peak, power loading for the P-51D was about 7.5 lbs per hp, while

the J was still 6.2 lbs./hp [6.7 for the H] (because the turbocharged power

was operating at sea-level efficiency.)

(P-47D power loading (military)at a gross wt. of about 14,500 lbs was 7.2lbs./hp at all altitudes up to 30,000 ft.)

This means that at 20,000 ft. the P-38--early or late model--could walk away

from the P-51 and at 25,000 ft. and above, it could run away from it. Because

of this power advantage, the P-38, whatever the model, could easily outclimb

the Merlin P-51, hands down, no contest. At military power, the P-38J could

beat the P-51 to 10,000 ft. by about 2 minutes and to 30,000 ft. by about

four minutes. The P-38H figures would be somewhat less but still superior.

In fact, in fun and games stateside, it was not uncommon for a P-38 driver to

challenge a P-51 jockey to a dogfight to begin at brake-release on the

runway, the airplanes side by side. The Lightning would be wheels up before

the Mustang had left the ground. It would climb to 20,000 ft., the Mustang

puffing along farther and farther behind, whereupon the P-38 driver would

commence a

relentless series of bounces from above, booming and zooming the Mustanguntil he got bored, the Mustang driver never having a chance to do little

more than dodge--if he could spot the Lightning coming out of the sun. The

higher up the fight took place, the greater the advantage to the P-38.

The P-38 could also easily out-accelerate the P-51, thanks to the brute

horsepower it possessed, leaving it behind in a throttle-up contest. At mid-

altitude mid-speed contests, the P-51 would do best against the P-38. But

even then, roll and turn rates would be about the same for the two airplanes,

with the Lightning having the advantage in acceleration, climb and initial

dive. At lower or higher speeds, the P-38 could out-do the P-51, using

maneuver flap setting at low speeds, and having greater control authority at

high speeds. Of course, at any time, the P-38 driver could push the contest

into--and through--the accelerated stall, which the P-51 driver dared not do:

the P-51 would depart controlled flight suddenly and violently, while an

accelerated stall in a P-38 was scarcely noticeable--a little mushing and thenose dropping a bit.

The bottom line is that the P-38 was one hell of a fine airplane. It was

complex for its day, and required the pilot to spend some time with it before

he was fully qualified to take advantage of its capabilities. But once he

understood the airplane and how to use it, there was no other fighter in the

air that could match the P-38.



Re range of the P-38 vs the P-51 in the ETO, the VIII Fighter Command's own

figures (available at AFHRA) show the P-38J with two 150-gal. drop tanks

having a range of slightly more than 600 miles, the P-51D with two 75-gal.

drop tanks slightly less than 600 miles. So both had a range sufficient to

carry them some 100 miles beyond Berlin. (Based on those fuel consumption

levels, the P-38H would have probably had a range comparable to the P-51D or

slightly less.)

Re reliability of the P-51's Packard Merlin engine vs. the turbo Allison in

the P-38, it has been stated in this thread that the P-51 brought a trouble-

free powerplant to the theater, replacing the troublesome engine in the

Lightning.

This is not true. The early Mustangs suffered their own share of troubles,

with many being lost to mechanical problems during the winter and early

spring of 1944. Biggest problems seem to have been with the cooling system.

If you want to discover why the P-38 was replaced in VIII Fighter Command by

the P-51, you will have to look elsewhere than aircraft performance or

reliability.



Subject: Re: P-51D Escort (Was Re: ME-262 in 1942)Date: 13 May 1998 22:20:48 -0400

>You put two supercharged Merlins in the Lightning and you have a war winner

brother!

>Those Damned Allisons!!

The Allison engines in the P-38 were just fine, and turbosupercharging beats

mechanical supercharging any day.

As a matter of fact, in 1941, Lockheed did an analytical study pitting the

Allison against the Merlin. This showed that converting to the Merlin would

add 1,000 lbs to the weight of the plane, while reducing rate of climb and

service ceiling.

The only place and time the P-38 encountered serious engine problems was when

flying out England in the fall of 1943. Brig. Gen. Benjamin Kelsey, who was

chief of the Fighter Project Branch at Wright Field (and the first person to

fly the P-38) and deputy chief of staff of the 9th Fighter Command in

England, then chief of the Operational Engineering Section of the 8th Air

Force, looked into the Allison engine problem in that theater and reported

that the problem

lay with the "poor aromatic fuels" available in England at the time. Once

the cause was known, the problem was corrected, the troubles ended.

Problems with the turbosuperchargers encountered in that theater were anothermatter. These were solved with the introduction of the core-type intercooler

on the J models.



Subject: Re: P-38 why effective in Pacific and not in EuropeDate: 16 May 1998 00:41:31 GMT


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...[The P-38 was a difficult plane to fly with some

handling characteristics that were dangerous.)

Ixnay!!

Other than knowing how to handle an engine-out situation on take-off (the

usual VMC business), the Lockheed offered no trouble. A complex airplane?

For its day, yes. A dangerous airplane? Not at all.

This P-38 debate is endless, but some things about the P-38 that made it sucha marvelous design haven't been brought up that probably should be:

To achieve high-speed capability, an airplane will have high wing-loading

(gross weight to wing area) and low power loading (gross weight to

horsepower).

The P-38 had very high wing loading (which provides other benefits, such as

when penetrating weather, etc.), higher than anything other than one-off

record-breaking and racing planes when it was introduced. And it also had

unusually low power loading; in fact it had the lowest power loading of any

US design (maybe any design) of WWII. Turbocharging ensured this power

loading would remain constant to very high altitudes.

This meant the airplane would be fast. But high wing loading would normally

degrade turning, climb and ceiling. With such high wing-loading, the P-38

should have been a dog in all but top speed. It wasn't because of two other

factors.One is its aspect ratio (span to chord ratio; that is, the relationship of

the length of the wing to its width). Another, related, factor is its span

loading (ratio of airplane weight to wingspan).

In turns or climbs, a plane's drag tends to increase and its speed to

decrease.

A way to counter this is to increase the wingspan. For any given wing area,

increasing the span decreases the chord, providing a higher aspect ratio.

For structural and other reasons, most WWII-era fighters had aspect ratios of

6 or less. The P-38 had an amazing aspect ratio of 8, meaning that it could

gain the advantage of high wing loading for speed and still not lose in

maneuverability, climb or ceiling.

A large wingspan, however, generally degrades a plane's rate of roll because

the wing surface is so far out from the fuselage and center of gravity.

Making the wing tips narrower by tapering the plan form does a lot to counterthis.

Normal fighter configurations had a taper ratio of about 2 (the wing tip

being only about half as wide as the wing root). The P-38 had a taper ratio

of 3.

So, you had an airplane that was fast yet a good climber, a good turner and

good roller.

But wait--there's more:

Power has to be converted to thrust thru a propeller. Big powerful engines

need big propellers to handle that power, but the diameter of a prop is

limited by tip speed. So power has to be absorbed by adding blades or

increasing their width. But a prop working harder on a given volume of air

has inherent aerodynamic inefficiencies requiring performance compromises.

Bottom line being that propeller inefficiency limits the value of engine

power.But because the P-38's power was in two "sections" (engines), each with its

own propeller, it was able to use its power as efficiently as a much lower-

powered airplane operating at lower speeds. And the increased propeller disc

area of the two props ensured that the plane's power and thrust would be

maximized throughout the maneuver range.

This thrust efficiency made for an airplane that leaped into the sky on

take-off and could accelerate in the air like a drag racer.

Pretty neat, huh?




Ordinary fighters of the day had a tail length ratio (number of times the

wing chord goes into the distance from the center of gravity to the tail

surfaces) of between 2 and 2.5. This ratio might be compared to wheelbase on

a car. A shorter wheelbase makes for a choppier, less stable ride. The P-

38's tail length ratio was a whopping 4. This means it had excellent

damping, or the tendency to slow the rate of departure from a trimmed

position. This made it a great plane for flying long distances in, with one

finger on the wheel, or for instrument flying, or as a steady gun platform orfor dropping bombs.

The large tail length ratio required a smaller than normal tail surface area

because of the increased arm at which the surface worked. This reduced drag

and made for a truly excellent flying airplane.

Not bad, huh?


The width of the horizontal tail surface was determined by the spacing of the

booms. The result was a very high aspect ratio for the tail plane. The

endplate effect of the two vertical fins and rudder surfaces on the end of

the booms produced an aerodynamic apparent aspect ratio that was even higher.

This had the effect of providing very rapid changes in force with small

changes in the aircraft's angle of attack. This great sensitivity, combined

with superb damping, meant that less trimming force was necessary for

stability and thatthere was a wide range of CG position or stability available without

degradation of flying characteristics.

Like, wow, man!


The high aspect ratio of the horizontal tail also produced narrow chord

elevators, which in a turn meant light control forces for maneuver. Ditto

for the vertical tail surfaces and rudders. Net effect, the pilot could dance

the airplane all over the sky without breaking a sweat, while bellowing out

the latest tunes from "Oklahoma!" to drown out the curses in his headphones

of any other pilot in some lesser machine that he chose to sky-wrassle with.

Because the engines rotated in opposite directions, they produced a

symmetrical slip stream flow which eliminated the need the carry rudder

displacement, thus

reducing a source of drag. And there was no change in trim with changes inspeed, which was a pure blessing in maneuver combat, er, dogfight.

Then there is the Fowler flap system which actually increases wing area,

tricycle landing gear, centerline fire guns, plenty of internal fuel, a roomy

cockpit....

The P-38 also had an amazing degree of detail refinement compared to other

planes. All its external surfaces were smooth with no disturbances from

rivets or lap joints, for example.

One negative was necessarily small ailerons because of the wing taper,

meaning large aileron displacement would be necessary to initiate a roll.

That meant high aileron forces. That's why the control wheel was used, and

why the later models had aileron boost. Savvy pilots would blip the inside

throttle when they wanted a smart roll ASAP. Less savvy pilots did lots of

pushups. And there was the cockpit heating and defrosting thing (by the way,

it's just as cold at 25,000 ft. in the tropics as in Europe), which did getsolved about as soon as it became apparent. Cooling was never as effectively

solved.

But, all in all, a pretty damned good flying machine.

As pilots of the day said, if Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a

P-38.

?From: [email protected] (C.C. Jordan)




Subject: Re: P-38 why effective in Pacific and not in EuropeDate: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:24:34 GMT

On Sun, 17 May 1998 05:47:01 GMT, polo <[email protected]> wrote:

>Because of my interest in military aviation, I read and researchas many aircraft that I can [which does not make me an authority],

but if a number of historians each confirm a fact, I am prepared

to believe them. I am also prepared to be proven wrong.

I will then add the facts that proved me wrong to my collection

of information.

>Having said that, I would like to ask you, if you wouldn't mind,

to give me the identification ISBN number so that I can track it

down, and buy it.

Here it is: "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" By Warren M. Bodie.

ISBN 0-9629359-0-5, published by Wideing Publications, distributed

by Motorbooks international. Price? About $40.

If you want another Bodie book of equal value, his monster study ofthe P-47 ( really of Seversky and Republic Aviation ) is a must.

"Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt, From Seversky to Victory."

ISBN 0-9629359-1-3, also published by Widewing Books and

distributed by Motorbooks International. The price is also about $40.

>There were many books written shortly after WWII, that do not stand

up to scrutiny today because of the release of facts that

were protected by the ...Secrets Act.

In the case of Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WWII, I think the rush to release

the volume greatly contributed to the errors of fact or data not listed.

>One example of this pertains to Ultra, Enigma and Bletchly.

After about 20 years the story of Ultra [et al] was revealed

to the public by a person who had been associated with Bletchly

but in fact did not have access to the total operation.

>Because of the errors and omissions the British war department

asked a historian to write the whole story about ULTRA.

All wartime [ secret] information was made available to him.

This was done so that a comprehensive and accurate

picture could made of the total operation at Bletchley.

>

>> Factory sources are far more reliable. Save the Jane's for coffee table

decoration. The most accurate source for P-38 data is Warren Bodie's "The P-

38 Lightning" and our friend CDB, P-40 and P-38 ace of the 49th Fighter Group.

>

>Why is Bodie's fact list the most accurate??? I would believe that

he is a historian, and his facts have been confirmed by other

reputable historians. Do you suppose that all

the contributors to Jane's are spinning tales???

Bodie obtained the full endorsement of Kelly Johnson and Ben Kelsey

prior to publication. Both men contributed to the book, Kelsey wrote

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the prologue and Johnson, the forward. Bodie was the founder of the Split-S

Society which led to today's P-38 National Association. To most of the P-38

community, Bodie is looked at as "the keeper of the flame".

Bodie is also a remarkable aviation historian. Bodie had access to

Lockheed's wartime records, likely due to his friendship with Johnson

and Kelsey. A great deal of what Bodie presents, has never been

published before. Why? Because no one has had access to the records

to the extent that Bodie has.

As to Jane's: No they were not spinning tales. They did however, lack

a great deal of information, most of which was indeed available. Their

publishing deadline, undermined the gathering of that information.

>Jane's must have gotten their information from

the manufacturer, or from people who were closely associated

with the P-38. Jane's was able to publish photos

of most of the aircraft, including the P-38.

The data presented by Jane's could have been found in a WWII

era edition of Popular Mechanics. Just about everyone who was

stationed at an airfield had taken photos of P-38's.

By the way, Border's Books frequently has both of Bodie's books

on the shelf. Bodie has teamed up with Jeffrey Ethell to release

a stunning photo book ( of early Kodachrome photos ) depicting

America's golden age of aviation, as well as WWII. I don't recall

the title, however, I was fortunate that my local library obtained a

copy.

Regards,

C.C. Jordan

"Passion and prejudice govern the world; only

under the name of reason".

John Wesley

http://www.Aerodyne-controls.comAerodyne Controls: A division of Circle Seal Corporation.



Subject: Re: Pilots' Favorite Fighter Date: 21 May 1998 13:40:50 -0400

> [The P-38] was a "bear" of an aircraft to control on one engine.

No. Using the rudder tab, it could be trimmed to fly quite well on one

engine.In fact, at normal continuous power setting on the remaining engine, the P-

38 had a ceiling of over 26,000 ft., and could cruise at over 250 mph. You

could even do go arounds in the landing pattern on one engine as long as you

didn't employ full flaps or didn't descend below 500 ft. before initiating

the go-around.



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Subject: Re: RR vs Packard Merlins (was: The Ultimate piston Engine fighter ?)Date: 11 Nov 1998 05:44:42 GMT

On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 23:23:48 -0500, Bob Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:

>Twice?? I very much doubt it, no matter which model of P-38 you

compare to which model of P-51. I think climb rates between the twowere generally similar, with the edge going to the P-51 against most

models of the P-38.

>>

Obviously Mike was overstating. Nonetheless, ANY model of the P-38,

from the F through the L could outclimb the P-51B, C or D. That is not

even debatable. The P-51 was at best, a mediocre climber. The L model

(the most common variant) held an 800 fpm advantage from sea level, and

it only got greater as they went up. That is the result of the

turbocharged engines making constant power whereas the Merlin made

power in steps, so to speak, due to the two speed, two stage

supercharger. The P-38L also accelerated notably better as well.

>

>I only have book figures:

P51B-1-NA -- 3.6 min to 10,000ft; 7 min to 20,000ftP38F-15-LO -- 4 min to 10,000ft; 8.8 to 20,000ft

There are lots of published figures bouncing about in various books. The

problem with most of these is that there is never a source listed.

The USAAF did a great deal of testing with every variant of the P-38. Most of

the data generated is available through the USAF Historical Research Center.

This requires one to travel there and perform a search. You can usually hire

a student to do your research if you don't mind parting with some green stuff.

The following climb figures appear in various test documents from several

different test facilities.

Time to height:P-38F from sea level to 10,000 ft at 48 in. Hg. MAP, 2,900 rpm: 3.56 min.

P-38F from brake release to 10,000 ft.: 4 min, 35 sec.

P-38J sea level to 23,800 ft, 60 in. Hg. MAP, 3,000 rpm: 6.19 min., still

maintaining 2,900 fpm at that altitude.

P-38L sea level to 20,000 ft. 60 in. Hg. MAP, 3,000 rpm: 4.91min, still

maintaining 3,450 fpm at that altitude.

>This book also shows P38J climb very similar to P51B climb, no figures

for P38L climb. If the great superiority in climb of the P38 over the P51

only occurred at sea level, then perhaps that should have been stated.

>But it is debatable.

No debate at all.... The P-38 was the best climbing USAAF fighter, period.

>> Let's review a few facts.

>> 1) The P-38F was a bit faster than the Bf-109F (406 mph vs 388 mph)

>

>Well, my book shows 395 mph for the P38F. Perhaps showing different max

speeds at different altitudes would be more meaningful here, but I don't have

enough of these figures either.

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The 395 mph figure comes from a test series done at Elgin in 1942. The

maximum manifold pressure utilized was 44.5 in. Hg. At 48 in. Hg. 406 mph was

attained.

The lower MAP was selected for the test to reduce the danger of detonation

due the limited cooling capacity of the intercoolers. In combat, not such low

limit would be adhered to.

2) The P-38, any model, could easily out turn the Bf-109F.

>

>Easily? Bt what criteria, at what speed and at what altitude?

Yeah, easily, at any altitude or speed.

>If the Bf109F could take on the Spitfire it could surely take on the P-38.

Says who? The P-38F was about 35 mph faster than the Spitfire Mk.Vb

It could disengage from a Spitfire at will. The P-38, with its fowlers

deployed could turn with the Spit initially and flying the classic yo-yo,

remain behind.

>Turning is not the only measure of an aircraft’s maneuverability.

Roll rate, acceleration, and energy retention are also important.

Roll rate in early models was directly related to pilot skill. Proper use of

differential throttle would induce a remarkable high roll rate (in either

direction) not attainable by aileron alone. Acceleration was always very good

with two airscrews generating thrust. As for energy retention, the P-38 was a

difficult aircraft to slow down. It did not bleed energy as fast as most of

its contemporaries.

>If the LW had found the 109F lacking against an ungainly twin, they would

have ordered a completely new fighter design.

There was nothing ungainly about the Lightning. At 250 mph it could turn with

the A6M Zero. At 275 mph, it could turn inside the A6M. Try that with any Bf-109 variant. One problem faced by the 109 was ill effects of torque.

Torque could limit roll rate in one direction while enhancing it in the

other. The P-38, with its engines and props turning in opposite directions,

did not suffer from the P factor. The 109, on the other hand could induced to

snap spin out of a tight turn. The P-38 could maneuver on the edge of a stall

with good control. Not so the Bf-109.

The Bf-109 was clearly outclassed by the P-38, especially the J and L models.

>> 3) The P-38F could climb as fast as the Bf-109F.

>

>If the P-38F could not outclimb the P-51, it surely couldn't outclimb the

109. I seem to recall the 109F climbed at around 4,000 ft/min at sea level,

but I can't find the figures now. What climb figures do you have for the P-38 which are so impressive?

Above 25,000 ft, the P-38F climbs better than the 109F. Below that, the 109F

has the edge, with the exception of a zoom climb.

>>

>> 4) The P-38F was better armed.

>> 5) The P-38F had a vastly greater range.



>>

>> Obviously the Bf-109F was not "superior in every way to the P-38F".

>

>Actually, I said superior in every way except range and firepower.

>

>>

>> Most of the mission profiles in the MTO kept the P-38's below 15,000 ft.

Down there, the Luftwaffe had nothing that could handle the Lightning.>

>Except the Bf-109 and the FW-190.

Unsupportable rubbish. P-38's killed Luftwaffe fighters, over their own

Airspace, at a rate of 4 to 1 in air to air combat. The P-38L achieved

a kill ratio of 6 to 1. This excludes losses not related to aerial combat.

When the P-38L arrived in the ETO and MTO, the Bf-109 was, for all

purposes, obsolete. The Fw-190A series was not far behind. Only the

Fw-190D and Ta-152 series were "state of the art".

>>

>>

>> >>> >I agree with the earlier post which stated that it took too long for the

P-38 to get up to snuff in the ETO. The USAAF needed range and

performance when it entered the war, and the P-38 was the best it

could find in a pinch. It had more than its share of teething pains,

though.

>>

>> The only thing that prevented the P-38 from getting up to snuff in

>> the ETO was the 8th AF command. It was "the" fighter in the MTO

>> and SWPA before being replaced by the cheaper and easier to

>> maintain P-51.

>

>It was very successful in the SWPA, no question there.

>Cheaper and easier to maintain are important attributes, don't you think?

>>> The Mustang held no edge in performance.

>

>Range and speed are performance elements.

The P-38 was faster than the P-51 above 30,000 ft, and just as fast below

15,000 ft. As far as range goes, the P-38 had a significantly greater range

than the Mustang.

>However, over the Pacific it is understandable that pilots prefered 2

engines to 1, especially when the P-38s weaknesses at high altitude were not

a problem in a theater where most of the air combat was at mid and low

altitude, against significantly slower planes.

P-38s routinely flew above 25,000 ft in the SWPA, and it's just as coldat that altitude in the Southwest Pacific as it is in the ETO. The

problems encountered in the ETO could be largely laid at the feet of the 8th

AF command.

>

>Most of the P-38s problems were solved with the L model, but reading

>about the teething pains of this aircraft is in itself painful.



Every aircraft suffered problems that were not corrected until they were

discovered in actual combat service.

Ask the guys who flew both in combat. I did.

>

>I would be more interested in knowing what the guys who flew against both in

combat say. I've never heard of a German pilot referring to the P-38 in any

particularly reverential way.

You need to read more.

>

>In 'The First and the Last' Galland refers to a B-17 raid on

>Wilhelmshaven on 27 January, 1943: 'The bombers of the Eighth AAF were

escorted by P-38 Lightnings. This was a twin-engine long-distance

fighter which had similar shortcomings in combat as our ME-110. Our

fighters were clearly superior to it'. This from the General whose job

it was to know such things.

You want an honest opinion, read Steinhoff. You want to read a Luftwaffe

apologist, read Galland's self justifying nonsense. If the P-38 was clearly

inferior, why did they kill four Luftwaffe fighters for each of their own

lost to German fighters? P-38's were rarely encountered in the ETO. I doubtif Galland ever faced them himself.

>The P-51 and the P-47 were both respected by the LW pilots, especially at

high altitude. In 'The Final Hours' Steinhoff refers to the P-47 and P-51 as

being superior to the German piston engined fighters.

The P-38 was the hot fighter in the MTO, where it did better than the P-47

and the P-51. I'm sure there are a lot of dead German pilots who had great

respect for the Lightning.

>

>Now I'm really digressing, I just wanted to say that the P-38 couldn't

>climb twice as fast as the P-51.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan

Now online - Flying Prototypes by Erik Shilling:

The Curtiss YP-37 and the Bell YFM-1.

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An online WWII aviation history magazine.

A member of the WWII Web-ring.

"In reality, there exists only fact and fiction. Opinions result from

the lack of the former and reliance on the latter."



Subject: Re: The P-38 recordDate: 14 Nov 1998 21:20:07 GMT

On 14 Nov 1998 18:31:03 GMT, [email protected] (Bejewelled) wrote:


http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/index.html

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_ugroup=rec.aviation.military&as_uauthors=Jordan&as_usubject=record+38+p&as_drrb=b&as_mind=13&as_minm=11&as_miny=1998&as_maxd=15&as_maxm=11&as_maxy=1998&sitesearch=groups.google.com






>A thing that stands out in the P-38 record is the number of bad days that

even the good groups had. For the Med groups it was Ploesti 10 June 44

(date?). Some 9AF groups had bad days too. This doesn't seem to be the case

with the other two fighters, excepting the first missions of a group.

There are some important considerations to be weighed before any conclusions

are drawn. A great many fighter groups transitioning to the P-51 had alreadylogged many missions flying the P-47 and the P-38. They were not novices at

aerial combat as were most of the P-38 squadrons when they arrived.

Additionally, P-38's were the prime long range escort in the MTO, meaning

that they encountered far greater numbers of Luftwaffe fighters.

Even some of the very best outfits had bad days. The 56th FG lost 16 aircraft

on September 18th, 1944. An additional 26 were damaged. All were lost to flak

on a low level sweep.

It must be remembered that the bulk of the P-51 squadrons arrived after the

Luftwaffe had been significantly degraded by the P-47 and P-38 squadrons that

were in combat before them.

There is one very good comparison between the P-38 and the P-47 in the SWPA.

The 49th FG entered combat in March of 1942 with three squadrons. The 7th, 8th

and 9th FS. Initially, all three flew the P-40. The 9th squadron was re-

equipped with the P-38F in November/December 1942. The kill rate soared. In

December 1943, the tired, worn out P-38's were replaced by P-47D's. Down went

the kill rate. Those pilots who had "cut their teeth" on the P-38 were not at

all happy with the "Jug". Sure, it was faster than the Lightning, rolled

better, and it could be pushed into a dive at high altitude without the

terror of the P-38.

Nonetheless, the pilots of the 9th found it to far less forgiving than the

big Lockheed. It couldn't climb nearly as well. And, what about turn rate?

The "Jug" was not nearly as agile. The pilots complained that they missed the

firehose like concentration of guns in the nose. They found that the P-47

required 3 times the ground run to get airborne, not a calming experience ontheir short packed earth runways. The pilots complained that the big

Thunderbolt could not fight worth a damn in the vertical. Whereas the P-38

could be hung on her props at speeds as low as 85 mph, and still have good

control in all axis. In general, the P-47 was considered a step back from the

Lightning. Several pilots requested a transfer to the 7th or 8th FS where

they could fly their old faithful P-40's.

Kills broken down by types:

7th FS

P-40 - 114

P-38 - 66

8th FSP-40 - 152

P-38 - 55

9th FS

P-40 - 39 (1942)

P-38 - 130 (1942-43)

P-47 - 8 (1943) **Only 8 kills in 19 weeks**

P-38 - 77 (1944-45)



Headquarters pilots

P-40 - 8

P-38 - 19

______________

Total 668

Meanwhile, Gen. Kenny, a strong advocate of the P-38, and a commander

who listened to his fighter pilots, requested and received more Lightnings.In April of 1944, the 9th once again transitioned to Lightnings, this time,

P-38J's. The entire Group eventually got P-38's by September '44. The kill

rate went right up again.

How good was the 49th Fighter Group? Real good, when you consider they

flew mostly P-40's until late 1944. They scored a confirmed 668 kills in air

to air combat. Compare that to the 354th FG of the 9th AF with 701 (suspected

to be about 65 too high) and the 56th FG with 674. The 357th Fg was the only

other to top 600 air to air kills. In addition to the 49th's 668 kills are

105 probables and 61 damaged. Another 336 are believed destroyed on the

ground. However, unlike the ETO, pilots were *not* given credit for aircraft

destroyed on the ground. That gives the 49th a grand total of 1,004 enemy

aircraft destroyed. The 56th FG, with ground kills, has 1,006.

So, who flew for the 49th? No one special unless you consider the following:

Dick Bong 40

Gerry Johnson 22

Bob DeHaven 14 (perhaps 16)

George Preddy (in P-40's before transfer to the ETO) 26

John Landers 10

Joel Paris 9

Arland Stanton 8

Bob Aschenbrener 10

Grover Fanning 9

Wally Jordan 6

Elliott Dent 6

Ernest Harris 10

Fernley Damstrom 7

Any many more.......

Ask the guys from the 49th or the 475th if they thought the P-38

was inferior to the Mustang or Thunderbolt. You already know

their answer.

My best regards,

C.C. Jordan

Now online - Flying Prototypes by Erik Shilling:

The Curtiss YP-37 and the Bell YFM-1.

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a lack of the former and a reliance on the latter."







When the American bombers have fighter escort:

1. The twin engine German fighters and bombers become extremely vulnerable

and lose much of their usefulness.

2. The single engine German fighters are no longer able to position

themselves ahead of the bomber formation and arrange themselves for attack

unmolested, losing much of their effectiveness.

2a. The additional gun packs the German single engine fighters carry make

them vulnerable to attack by the American escort fighters, limiting theirusefulness.

2b. Some single-engine fighters have to be stripped of these weapons and

directed to protect the anti-bomber fighters from the American escorts

fighters, reducing the total number of German fighters sent against the

American bombers.

The P-38 proves effective at protecting American bombers. Is this good?

For bomber crews, yes. For certain career military professionals, no.

It's bad enough that they are forced to acknowledge that the theory of

unescorted bombers successfully fighting their way to the target is wrong.

But to admit that they had a fighter available that could have, from the

beginning of European bombing operations, been escorting those bombers and

thus helped prevent those losses--but they shipped it off to an unimportant

theatre....Well, can you spell "senate investigating committee"?

Far better to waffle and say that, yes, the P-38 was, technically, available

when needed, and yes, theoretically, could have been escorting bombers all

through 1943, reducing bomber losses substantially. But, look at all these

problems it had. Look how the pilots complained about it. In practice, it

really couldn't have done the job, so there is no blame to allocate. Our

hands are clean. There was nothing we could have done until the P-51 became

available, and as soon as it was, we used it. We are innocent of errors of

judgment that killed thousands of our own aircrew.

(Never mind that both the P-47 and P-51 had their own teething problems, some

quite severe. Never mind that many pilots positively loathed the army's

chosen fighter, the P-47, and that RAF types ridiculed it.)

Every statement in this post is based on evidence in published material

readily enough available that, on becoming interested in this thread, I was

able to find it, flip through it and jot down the points noted above, all of

which are supportable by this published material.

I grant that this may not be the truth of the matter. But knowing that the

military (any military) is first and foremost a vast government bureaucracy

inhabited by great numbers of drones the chief aim of which is to dodge blame

for anything while steadily advancing up the ladder to that golden prize--

retirement at the highest possible rank at the earliest possible time--it has

a ring of truth to it.

Makin

?From: [email protected] (MakinKid)

Subject: Re: The P-38 recordDate: 20 Nov 1998


Art Kramer wrote:

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>As a guy who flew those missions,

You flew unescorted 8th air force B-17 missions in 1943? Your post doesn't

indicate that.

>You quote an unnamed source.

No. I said I was able to find every point I made in published material soreadily available to the general public that I was able to find it quickly

and pick out those points. I was indicating that these conclusions were not

the result of serious research but merely what appeared evident from a

cursory examination of published material.

Here are some of the sources I used:

Thunderbolt by Warren Bodie

The Lockheed P-38 by ditto

The 56th Fighter Group in WW2 by William Hess

JG26 by Donald Caldwell

Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mark Spick

1000 Destroyed by Grover Hall

An Escort of P-38s by John Mullins

Carl Spaatz Master of Air Power by David Mets*The Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus Bekker*

The Fundamentals of Aircraft Combat Survivability Analysis and Design by

Robert Ball

Courage and Air Warfare by Mark Wells

America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing by Richard Hallion*

Big Week by Glenn Infield

The Luftwaffe by Williamson Murray*

To Command the Sky by Stephen McFarland and Wesley Newton*

Peter Three Eight by John Stanaway

And on and on....

*Indicates especially pertinent.

>outragous and unfounded charges?

I was merely presenting a theory. Don't become cranky if you disagree with

it. Produce evidence to refute it. If you're right and I'm wrong, I'll be

happy to acknowledge the fact and count myself a little more educated.

I don't hold a position on the P-38. But I do find it curious that a

long-range escort fighter was available and carrying out combat operations in

the Med at the same time bombers were sent unescorted over Germany. The

first, disastrous Schweinfurt raid of unescorted 8th air force bombers took

place on Aug 17, 1943. If memory serves, 55 heavy bombers were shot down.

On Aug 25, 1943 some 140 P-38s flew a mission of over 1,000 miles from North

Africa to Italy to bomb and strafe airfields. Is it outrageous to speculate

what would have been the effect of those 140 long-range fighter planes had

they been based in England rather than Africa and escorted the B-17s on the

August Schweinfurt raid? I think not. I believe it is a legitimate questionto ask.

In Sept and Oct 1943 8th air force heavy bomber losses were horrendous. The

one Sept raid deep into Germany--Stuttgart--lost 45 bombers. On Oct 8 the 8th

hit Bremen and lost 30 bombers. On Oct 9 28 bombers were lost on raids to

Danzig. On an Oct 10 raid to Munster, another 30 were lost. On Oct 14, the

second Schweinfurt raid, 60 bombers were shot down. As a result of these

losses, there was an outcry in

the US press and Gen. H.H. Arnold was put in the public hotseat.



On Nov 3, 1943 P-38s of the 55 fighter group escorted B-17s to Wilhelmshaven.

Only 7 bombers were lost, just THREE to German fighters. German fighter

losses were so heavy (II./JGS was virtually wiped out) that Gen Galland held

a special meeting with his fighter corps division commanders on Nov 4 and

meetings continued for the next several days in which it was decided to use

the single engine night fighter force (wild boars) to try to protect the twin

engine

fighter force while it attacked the US bombers, among other desperatemeasures (sacrificing an effective anti-Bomber Command force to combat the P-

38 escorts of the 8th air force was a serious step, indeed).

On Nov 14 45 P-38s escorted the heavy bombers all the way to Bremen. Only

TWO bombers were shot down by the German fighters. On Nov 26 the 8th was

back at Bremen and suffered fairly high losses (25, but only 5 percent of the

total bombers compared to about 20 percent at Schweinfurt when unescorted).

Only seven were lost to fighters, however. As a result of actions combating

these three raids the German air force lost 21 percent of its entire fighter

force in the west. This is astounding and is in a significant part

attributable to

operations of the P-38--sortieing in fairly small numbers. If 45 P-38s could

have such an influence, what would have been the effect of 200? That figure

could easily have been possible had the P-38s assigned to the Med been

instead assigned to England. The summer 1943 unescorted 8th air force raidsthat suffered so terribly--30 percent crew losses for three months in a row--

not to mention the Sept and Oct disasterous raids--could all have been

escorted by the P-38 groups that were operating quite effectively out of

North Africa at the

same time--and winning Presidential Unit Citations. Had the P-47 been

assigned to North Africa (where a lot of ground attack work was being done

anyway) and the P-38 retained in England for bomber escort work, the evidence

suggests that bomber losses would have been much lower. To me, the evidence

suggests that somebody screwed the pooch.

What evidence do you have that suggests otherwise?

Makin




On 20 Nov 1998 05:05:59 GMT, [email protected] (Ceullers51) wrote:

>Makin commented--

>

>> To me, the evidence suggests that somebody screwed the pooch.>

>You got that right. The Big Friends needed some Little Friends but SOMEBODY

had sent them all on a Club Med "vacation."

>

>Have a fondness for the P-51 however. But it just wasn't around in the

summer of '43. The P-38 WAS. Only in the wrong theater. SNAFU. What else

is new?

>

>





>

>George

In retrospect, isn't it rather stunning that the P-38 was not second sourced

until 1945? The Lightning was in heavy demand everywhere in early 1943.

You would think that one of those factories producing such utterly unwanted

aircraft such as the Vultee Vengence would have been utilized to manufacture

the one fighter everyone needed. Had a second source be established in mid1942, there would have been adequate numbers of Lightnings to provide for all

of the long range escort needs by early '43.

Certainly two or three groups of P-38's would have made a huge impact in

reducing heavy bomber losses early in the ETO bombing campaign. When you

study the effectiveness of the P-38 in minimizing bomber losses in the North

African theater and the MTO, it is plainly obvious that the same results

could have been obtained in the ETO. No longer could the Luftwaffe

concentrate its fighters just beyond the P-47's escort radius with impunity.

The system that worked so effectively in 1944/45 could have been in place by

the summer of 1943. That is, P-47 and RAF escorts to the German border, with

the longer ranging escorts taking the bombers to the target and the

Thunderbolts and Spitfires picking them up again on the way out. At this

point, the P-38's could have been released to hunt down the Luftwaffe as theyshuttled back and forth to their respective airfields to refuel and rearm.

The Luftwaffe could have been hammered into impotence 9 months sooner.

When one considers that the 5th AF was still flying the P-40 as its primary

fighter as late as July/August 1944, it is obvious that second sourcing the

P-38 would have had made a great impact throughout the AAF. So we can safely

conclude that stupidity as per the P-38 was not confined to the 8th AF but

went far higher to at least the War Production Board. Nonetheless, hindsight

allows us to see that the AAF was clearly negligent in its failure to

utilize the P-38 for long range escort in the ETO in 1943. I believe that the

once the 8th AF received their two groups, they were equally negligent in

their training and usage of the aircraft. The P-38 suffered far more from

neglect than from defects in design.

My best regards,

C.C. Jordan

Now online - The P-38: Was its size and shape a disadvantage?





Honor and remember the WWII vets.






On 20 Nov 1998 12:38:06 -0500, [email protected] wrote:









>[email protected] (C.C. Jordan) writes:

>

>You have not only dismissed what Zemke said, but you also seem to

dismiss what German pilots thought of the P-38. Generally, they

didn't think much of the P-38 either when compared to the Mustang

and Thunderbolt.

>>

>> I have little regard for the truthfulness of many of the postwar Luftwaffeapologists. If the P-38 was such an easy kill, perhaps these characters could

explain why, in air to air combat, the P-38 pilots shot down 4, yes, I said

4, Luftwaffe fighters for every P-38 lost to German fighters? In the MTO, the

ratio was closer to 5 to 1.

>>

>

>why would the postwar Luftwaffe be any less truthful than the postwar

USAAF? because we won, and they are bitter? I don't think so. I find

it very difficult to find any unbiased opinions. Trying to find the

"truth" is one of the things that makes this hobby interesting. ;-)

Many of the Luftwaffe survivors, especially some of the major figures,

overstated their case unabashedly. Moreover, their embarrassment

at being swept aside as they were, by overwhelming air power andsuperior technology in manufacturing made many of them very bitter.

The Luftwaffe myth has evolved much like that of Gen. R.E. Lee

and the Confederate States of America. The famous lost cause mentality

that claims that the south lost to the Union because they were out-manned not

out-fought. This effort at justification does nothing but reek of self-

delusion. And so it goes for the Luftwaffe apologists. To this very day, you

can certainly find former Luftwaffe pilots who believe that their largely

obsolete Bf-109's were not inferior to the P-38, P-47, Spitfire and Mustang.

How valuable is the opinion of someone with such a myopic view of reality?

>

>I'd be careful when you quote kill ratios. you have no real basis for

where those numbers originated.

I have a very real basis. The numbers are commonly known.

>Are they inflated? most likely yes,

Every air force overclaimed to some extent. Even if not, are you sure

they were against LW fighters? What about bombers, etc., which were

active in the MTO? what about Italian planes in the MTO, a lot of

which were inferior? What about the number of Bf-110's, or rocket

carrying Ju-88's, or SE fighters with wing packs? and, most

importantly, what about the quality of pilots? after march 1944, this

would be heavily in favor of the allies.

Inflated? No more that Luftwaffe claims, and possibly less so. As to

how many bombers and Italians are included: About 6-8% of the air

to air kills were bombers or non-Luftwaffe, as best as I can determine.

>

>my point is that kill ratios are not all that meaningful. There are

much more objective ways to compare the ACM of different

a/c. energy-maneuverability charts, for example. (for those that don't

know, they essentially combine a V-n, velocity vs g-available, with a

Ps, excess power graph. They are very useful to compare different a/c

in different flight regimes).



I was responding to the statement that Luftwaffe pilots claimed that the P-38

was an easy kill. That statement is directly in opposition to the loss ratio.

Ultimately, the effectiveness of an aircraft will be determined by its

contribution to the air war. As per the performance aspects of the P-38, you

will find few who are more aware of this aircraft's performance (short of an

actual P-38 pilot) than me. I have well over 1,000 hours in powerful radial

powered military twins. As a result, I also have more than a passing

understanding of the skills required to extract maximum performance from sucha platform.

>

>As far as the P-38 goes, I actually believe that the later versions

>(J-25 and higher) were perfectly capable a/c. I don't think that its

>"better" than a mustang, but I think they are close enough that its

>the pilot that matters.

This is precisely the point of those of us defending the Lightning.

In overall capability, I feel the P-38 has an edge. However, that

edge is offset by various quirks and its high maintenance requirements.

The P-38 was a complex aircraft and was a bit more difficult fighter to fly

well. Pilots of average skills benefited being in the P-51. Talented,

naturally skilled aviators could extract the full potential of the P-38.Performance levels were above that which the Mustang could obtain.

Yet, those pilots were not in the majority. Therefore the P-51 or P-47

was the better choice for them.

>

>later,

>kevin

>

>--

>--------------------------------------------------

>| Kevin Serafini | Phone: (412) 742-7317 |

>| FORE Systems | FAX: (412) 742-7300 |

>| Test Automation Group | |>--------------------------------------------------

C.C. Jordan












On 22 Nov 1998 10:33:27 GMT, [email protected] (Bejewelled) wrote:









>>

>>I have yet to see a single poster in the anti-P-38 side of the debate say

anything about the fact that the P-38 had the best weapons package and was

the best gunnery platform of any of the fighters being debated.

>

>Yes, but all three were good enough to take on German fighters. and the

quality of the guns matters not if you never get the sights on the target,because he's long gone downwards and you can't chase him. Zemke agreed the 38

had the best gunnery platform.

Just a couple of points, if I may........

Generally, Luftwaffe pilots would stay in the fight until they found a

fighter had gained position on them, Then, sometimes, they would elect to

split-s to escape. The use of a split-s was a standard tactic used

successfully against Spitfires since 1940. If the Spitfire followed he was

likely to find himself below the Bf-109. Why? Because the 109 with his

injected engine had full powered available inverted, and would accelerate

better, extend and then convert its speed into altitude. How does this relate

to the P-38?

The P-38 supposedly could not be put into a dive from high altitude because

of its rapid entry into compressibility. That's what most P-38 pilots in theETO believed and that is what the Germans assumed or learned from captured

pilots. However, it really wasn't true.

You could dive the Lightning safely if you understood the rules.

The P-38 has a relatively low critical Mach, and it reaches that speed

in an incredibly short time. To avoid getting into the range of speed that

induced compressibility tuck, you could do several things.

1) Pull off the power.

2) Set the props to fine pitch.

3) Maneuver (roll) while beginning the dive and continue until below 20,000

feet.

This entire exercise is unnecessary if below 20,000 ft. Here you can follow

the German down without undue drama.

>

>>Or we have the issue of combat radius performance in which the aircraft was

basically unchallenged, even by the Mustang.

>>

>

>Well, I'm not too sure about that, references vary according to model. I've

certainly got a USAAF doc which gives the 51D the biggest radius, even

against 38L.

The P-38L could carry in excess of 530 gallons of avgas per engine. It could

fly about 200 - 300 miles farther than the Mustang. Yet, the maximum range of

either was such that time in the cockpit was excessive and no one would want

to fly 8 to 10 hour combat missions.

>

>>Or even the ability to limp home on one engine, which none of the single

engined fighters could do.

>

>They all could, I'm very sure about that. Is that what you meant to

write??????

Adrian got ya on that one Carlo ! :-)



I think he meant to say the the P-38 would get you home with one engine

out.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan

Now online - The P-38: Was its size and shape a disadvantage?http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.htmlhttp://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/index.htmlThe "Planes and Pilots of WWII" website.









On Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:07:08 -0500, Bob Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:

>Carlo Kopp wrote:

>

>

>I have yet to see a single poster in the anti-P-38 side of the debate say

anything about the fact that the P-38 had the best weapons package and was

the best gunnery platform of any of the fighters being debated.

Most of the folks involved in this discussion would quickly concede these

facts.Also, most are aware that the P-38 found a very productive vocation as a

first rate fighter bomber, even in the ETO. There was no better aircraft for

dive bombing. As a strafing aircraft, the concentration of guns in the nose

was devastating, assuming you could bring them to bear. The P-47, with its

expanding cone of fire was more likely to hit the target, if not do as much

damage to it as the P-38. Against enemy troops, the P-47 tended to be more

effective.

Against harder targets, such as trains, the P-38 was more effective.

>

>'Anti-P38' is a bit strong, most posters are simply disagreeing with the

contention that the P-38's weak record in the ETO (compared to its record in

SWPA) was because of official ineptitude rather than the plane's weaknesses.

As far as armament, 6 or 8 .50 cal machine guns was adequate, 4 .50s and 120mm in the nose was indeed more than adequate. I don't think the US

military was ever dissatisfied with the .50 cal wing-mounted configuration,

later fighters designed to go up against Japanese fighters went back to 4 .50

cal (F8F,FM-2).

>

>

>>

>> <snip>

>> Or even the ability to limp home on one engine, which none of the









>> single engined fighters could do.

>

>There are probably no stats to answer this question, but I wonder how

>many pilots were killed by the twin-engined configuration.

Quite a few pilots died in P-38 accidents. Indeed, it was a handful when

losing an engine shortly after lift off. Nonetheless, as Milo Burcham and

Tony LeVier proved, proper training could eliminate virtually all of theseaccidents.

>It is well known that early in its deployment the P-38 killed many pilots

when an engine failed on take-off and control was lost. More training solved

this problem, but even a well trained pilot could conceivably spin in if an

asymmetrical thrust situation occurred suddenly at low altitude. A pilot

losing his engine in a single-engine fighter at low altitude may have a

chance to bail safely without having to fight for control first.

The first thing the P-38 pilot must do when losing an engine/prop was to pull

off power to the healthy engine. If very near stall speed, one had to push

the nose over to maintain airspeed while **slowly** adding power to the

remaining engine. Do it any other way and you **will** make a big hole. Do

not attempt to feather the prop until you have enough altitude to make thefield in a glide.

Do not lower the landing gear until you are certain to make the field. Lower

the flaps in increments.

>In other words, I wonder if the twin configuration was a life saver for some

and a killer for others. Obviously, those pilots who were saved by the 2nd

Allison would swear by the twin configuration, but those who were killed by

it never got a chance to give their opinion. Does anyone have stats to

compare the loss rates of ground attack units flying the P-38 with those

flying the P-47? This might be a better way to compare the real value of two

engines in combat, as actual rather than hypothetical survivability is the

issue.

I don't have such data, and I suspect that it was likely never to have beencompiled. But, I would offer this theory: I suppose survivability was very

close with these two types. The P-38 with redundant systems and the P-47 with

its remarkably durable R-2800 radial, both could suck up a fair amout of

abuse and still wobble on home. The Mustang certainly suffered more from

triple A than the other two.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan

















Subject: Re: P38 vs P-51 vs 109 vs 190 (was Re: Lindbergh in...))Date: 10 Jan 1999 20:44:15 GMT

On 10 Jan 1999 11:43:40 GMT, [email protected] (Bejewelled) wrote:

>>There are published figures on sustained roll rate. In this regard the

early P-38's were comparible to the single engine fighters of the day.

>>True. But the first 180 degrees took 1.5 secs longer than with a Fw190.

Pilot reports speak of applying aileron and waiting for the roll to come in.

At speed, neither differential throttle nor rudder make that much difference.

>George C was definite in his insistence that you left the throttles alone,

possibly because the combo of inconsistent turbo response and prop

response(curtiss electric) could result in overspeeding.

To quote George:

"Regarding the various comments about throttling back or up a P-38 engine to

increase maneuverability I can only repeat that this was not practiced as far

as I know. When I was overseas in 44 and 45, flying the J winter thru

summer, the policy was to drop tanks and push up MP to 45 inches when German

fighters were spotted in a position where an engagement was likely. When you

actually went for them, throttle up to WEP, 60 inches or so, rpm all the wayup too, up

past 3000 rpm. And there it would stay until the engagement was over and you

remembered to throttle back. You could easily be at WEP for 20 minutes or

more."

As far as he knows.... Several of the 475th and 49th FG veterans wrote about

being instructed by some of the hot pilots about the use of differential

throttle to induce a roll faster than merely cranking in right or left yoke.

You mention the term, " at speed". What speed? Most aerial contests took

place at speeds between 200 and 300 mph IAS. Frequently, even slower. Why was

this?

Because WWII fighters did not accelerate like modern jet fighters. Highspeeds usually required pushing the nose below the horizon. Because all

swirling dogfights eat up airspeed, the term "at speed" is not applicable.

Rudder effectiveness, while related to speed, was important at 200 mph.

Likewise the effects of torque were obvious at these airspeeds.

At 200 mph, torque is a significant problem for the Fw-190 or the 109. At the

same time, Torque can be, and was used by P-38 pilots to induce roll at these

speeds. Combining rudder input with throttle settings can induce the P-38 to

roll rather smartly. To rely only on aileron input is unrealistic. The proper

coordination of the controls is essential. I suspect that your calculations

tend to ignore multiple control inputs and rely only on ailerons for roll

rate. You are defining a snap roll. Snap rolls do little, other than scrub

valuable airspeed. Even rolling faster into a turn is of dubious value when

the enemy (in this case, a P-38) while a tad slower rolling, can easily cut

across your best turn and gun you down anyway. Worse, the P-38 can add a

little elevator, pulling into a high yo-yo, snapping out above the German in

perfect firing position. That's the benefit of the P-38's superb low speed,

high of attack handling. No single engine fighter in Luftwaffe service can

match this without snap-stalling out the turn.

I have no idea where you live, however, I suggest you save you dollars,

pounds, or Deutchmarks and buy yourself a ride in dual-control P-51. You can

experience the effects of torque on low speed roll rate for yourself. You can

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_ugroup=rec.aviation.military&as_uauthors=Jordan&as_usubject=lindbergh+109+190&as_drrb=b&as_mind=9&as_minm=1&as_miny=1999&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=1999&sitesearch=groups.google.com




also get a far better feel for how the controls stiffen at high speed. Roll

rate at high speeds is, of course, less than at low speeds. In some designs,

high speeds nearly freeze the ailerons, the A6M and Ki-43 being two good

examples.

>>The overwhelming majority of Luftwaffe fighters were shot down by an unseen

enemy.

>>Why did unseen 47s and 51s shoot down so many more LW fighters? Were the P-

38s seen? Or was there a difference in what constituted 'too late'? ie a P-38

in your six could be avoided if seen late, but a mustang could not.

Does the fact that there were a hell of a lot more Mustangs and T-Bolts than

Lightnings mean anything to you?

As to being able to avoid the P-38 and not the Mustang....

That depends on several factors. Altitude, model and orders. Below 20,000 the

P-38 could follow the Germans on down. If flying a dive flap equipped J model

or an L, diving away is no longer safe. These P-38's can chase you down into

the trees. However, they were under orders to stay with the bombers. Until

Doolittle released the fighters from close escort, the P-38 was stuck staying

close to the bombers.

>

>>Even if the German saw a P-38 sneaking up on him, so what? What are his

options? Roll into a turn? This won't work. The P-38F,G,H makes up for a

slower initial roll rate by having a markedly faster initial and sustained

rate

>

>And slower sustained roll than Fw190, which was one of the best rollers of

them all. Its turn was not good, with its high wing loading (only exceed by

P-38?).

>

>

>

>>If the German rolls into the engine torque, the P-38 will haveno trouble matching the initial roll rate.

>

>At medium speed, the engine torque is 25% (or less) as much as the aileron

torque. Roll acceleration is 12 times higher than the 38 one way, 20 times

the other. Differential torque for the P-38 has less effect than this on roll

acceleration as one Allison (throttled back, but not reduced to zero) has

less torque than a BMW801, and P-38 ailerons more torque than Fw190's.

Why would the P-38 have a higher roll acceleration in one direction? There is

no torque effect as both the engines and propellers turn in opposite

directions.

Explain please.

>>Assuming the German will split-s for the deck, who cares? He's out ofthe fight for some time, if not altogether. He won't be attacking the

heavies, so mission accomplished.

>

>He'll be back in five minutes. Against the next bomb wing. Or tomorrow. The

idea of escort is to kill interceptors.(In the 8th AF 1944 context). He

doesn't need to go to the deck unless the 38 pursues. In which case he (the

38) is out of the game too.



No he won't. He'll be 20 miles away and far below the bombers. To try to

climb back up is suicide. Once you bug out for the deck, your day is done.

Quoting George:

" As krauts got to know the 38 they would tend to dive sharply away from it,

convinced it would not follow. But that was just fine, because the 38's job

was to protect the bombers. If a gaggle of 109s approached the bombers,

escorting P-38s turned to engage them and the 109s bugged out for the deck,the 38's job was done. Those 109s wouldn't have enough gas to climb back up

to altitude, chase the bombers and position for an attack. And if they did,

the 38s would

turn in to them and the process would repeat."

And:

"About the 38 and the 190, the 38 could handle the 190 at any altitude. All

the 190 had going for it was a great split-S. But that was an escape

maneuver. If the kraut wants to run away, let him. The early J could not do

a good split-S. About all it could manage was a jenny immelman. But the

models with dive flaps and aileron boost could follow a 190 through a split-

S, surprising the

bejesus out of Herr Uberman."

>

>

>>By Sept. 1944, the Fifth AF was flying four full groups of P-38's. They

were BETTER trained than their ETO counterparts.

>

>The ETO groups had plenty of time to learn the 38. Didn't some outfits in

SWPA change straight into 38s from P-40, with no training, and do OK?

Sorry, it didn't happen that way. There was always transitional training.

Another important factor to consider was that there was a wealth of combat

experienced P-38 pilots to learn from in the SWPA. Not so in the ETO.

>>The better fighter, in terms of highaltitude was clearly the Me-109. 109 units used to sit above the 38s,

threatening the bounce and paralyzing the 38 groups ability to act. The old

1935 dog could operate in formation at 35,000ft.

Once again let George speak to the issue:

"The krauts figured this out pretty soon and knew they had to hit the 38s.

They would climb very high (109s, the 190s weren't seen at very high

altitudes) and bounce the 38s, who would be cruising at around 220 or so if

they hadn't spotted the krauts. Most losses were the result of surprise

bounces, the krauts keeping on moving so there was no chance for retaliation.

The 38 formation would be broken up, with guys turning looking for the enemy,

leaving a way open for other German fighters to hit the bombers.

The only solution to the surprise bounce was to open up the escort fighter

formation, have high cover several thousand feet above the bombers and closeescort, and keep your head on a swivel. Of course, simply having MORE escorts

also helped. (I would wager that was a big problem for the two early 38

groups. They just didn't have enough people to play both the infield and the

outfield.) The trick was to spot the Germans as they maneuvered into

position for a bounce. That's where having outstanding eyesight mattered,

mattered a

LOT more than dive flaps or a few more horsepower. One man in a squadron

with exceptional eyesight was a real lifesaver. If a high group of krauts

was spotted, some of the escort would be tapped to go after them. They



didn't have to shoot them down to succeed. All they needed to do was break

up their party and force them to dive away."

>

>

>>As to the Japanese.... The Ki-84 was at least as good as the Fw-190A and a

good match for the Dora as well. The Hayate was as fast, climbed better and

could turn rings around any Focke Wulf. It was certainly better than the P-38F. A good pilot in a Ki-84 could give a P-38L all it wanted. Had the

Japanese been able to supply higher octane fuel, the Hayate would have been

even faster. On 100-130 avgas a Ki-84 reached 426 mph when tested by the

USAAF.

>

>But it did 388 on the fuel they had. And was not effectively piloted. In

fact the game was all one way before the Ki-84 arrived. Shiden too. I do

appreciate their qualities.

Some sources quote speeds of 392, 406 and 385 mph respectively. The really

impressive fact is that the Ki-84 was capable of reaching 380+ at 5,000 feet.

That's cookin'. Faster than the P-51D down on the deck. Once down on the

deck, the Mustang could not out-turn, out-run nor out-climb the Hayate. It

was American style teamwork that overcame the Ki-84 down low, not anyperformance edge. Much the same for the Shiden, which while a bit slower than

the Ki-84, was more robust airframe capable of more abuse.

>

>

>

>

>>. When he does extend, you leave. This can work even if being pursued by a

large number of 190's.

>

>P-38 units in MTO had to use defensive circles against LW fighters. They

were unable to disengage. Unit tactics for the LW faced with P-38 in s spiral

climb should be to split. Some follow (losing ground) and some extend, to

return with speed.

A high speed spiraling climb is tough to counter with the Fw-190. It doesn't

climb very well, especially above 15,000 feet. Below 15,000 feet, the P-38

can easily out-turn the 190 or the 109. Down here a lone P-38 is plenty

dangerous. A well oiled team of two or more is more than most Luftwaffe

pilots will want to deal with.

Any group of P-38 pilots who assume a defensive circle are obviously very

green and lacking in confidence. Experienced fighter pilots would not even

consider such tactics while flying the faster, better handling aircraft.

>

>

>

>>Which why is some groups were soldiering on with the P-40N as late asmidsummer 1944 in the SWPA. They were doing OK with P-40 too. Would they have

done so in the ETO? Hmmm.

They did well against the Japanese. Largely because of superior tactics. How

would they do against the Luftwaffe? Below 15,000 feet, a well flown P-40N

was a match for the Fw-190A of the Bf-109. It could out-turn either, and

rolled as fast as the 190. In terms of speed, the lower altitude the better

for the P-40N. About 365 mph at 5,000 feet, fast enough to keep up with the

Germans.



As seen in the MTO, When protected by a high cover of P-38's, the P-40's

could, and did give the Luftwaffe all they could handle. In the hands of

pilot who knew how to use the P-40, it was formidable. Obviously, it was

unsuitable for high altitude escort work.

>

>I think that after 1943 the Pacific was the USAAF equivalent of the eastern

front for the Luftwaffe. Think of all those ostfront experts who went homeand got shot down by the allies.

That was not the case with the USAAF. Pilots going from the SWPA to the ETO

found it less demanding. Pilots coming from the ETO found that they still had

a steep learning curve in the SWPA. The tactics that defeated the Luftwaffe

were less suitable in the Pacific. The tactics developed in the SWPA, speed,

speed, more speed, altitude, altitude and more altitude were effective

against the Germans. Moreover, they finally had an enemy in the Luftwaffe

that they could out-turn in a close-in knife fight.

>Did any USAAF pilots move from Pacific to ETO in 44? (not Jim Howard, he

didn't serve in the easy time against japan).

Howard was with the AVG in 1942.

>On the P-47s tanks, it was possible to fit more tankage, as it was done

later. This would be far less of a task than re-engineering the 38 for

different engines. I have no idea why these changes (bigger drop tanks) were

left to in-theatre initiatives in every case.

The USAAF didn't grasp the fact that the heavies were going to need escorts

until well into 1943.

>

>

>>The roll and dive problem were minimal concerns, offset by intelligent

tactics.

>>You say that. Hub Zemke says different.

What exactly did Zemke say? This is what our fiend George says:

"Somebody mentioned the FW 190 being able to outdive the 38 by 60 mph and be

five miles ahead very quickly. It would depend on the aggressiveness of the

38 pilot and how desirous the 190 jockey was to get away. In the days when

the 38 was introduced into the long range escort role in the ETO, whenever a

38 pilot was likely to encounter a German he was among a lonely few Yanks and

a LONG way

from home. Plus he had orders to stick close to the bombers. Plus the

Germans he was likely to encounter were still pretty sharp then. Would YOU

have gone balls to the wall chasing some guy to hell and gone who absolutely

positively has friends of his lurking around that you haven't spotted? By the

time of the 51's heyday (and a fine little airplane it was), there was a lotmore of the guys in white hats around, fewer of the guys in black hats and

they were beginning to lose their edge.

Was the 38 worse than the 51? No. Just different. Did more pilots have

better luck in the ETO with the 51 than the 38? Seems so. Why? Tactics was

one reason. Freed from the bomber formations to chase the wiley kraut back

to his lair, corner him and finish him off, they were able to rack up more

kills.

Another reason was the K14 gunsight. You could make kills using that sight

in situations where without it firing your guns would be a waste of



ammunition. I grant you that a lot of people preferred the 51 to the 38. The

51 was a wonderful airplane, so it is easy to understand why. But then,

believe it or not, there were some people who preferred the P-40 to the 51.

I've talked with people who served in the 325 who were heartbroken to trade

their Peter 4-0s for Jugs. And there were some who got positively sick on

their first mission in the 51 after trading their 47s for them. The spamcan

seemed so insubstantial after

the Jug. Then there were those who had motored along in whatever they hadbeen flying, doing OK until one day they got to plant their feet on the

rudder pedals of a Mustang and suddenly they realized that THIS was what they

were born for. This was their airplane, and they really went to town with it.

Maybe that was the way it was for Bong with the 38 or Johnson with the 47.

Some things are beyond facts and figures."

>>The big problem in the ETO was reliability

>

>I don't agree. I have criticized the 38 on its record in contact with the

enemy. I dismiss the cold and engine troubles as things used as an excuse by

unsuccessful units, or rather as consolation for the fact that other groups

did far better with other equipment.(I don't mean to criticize the guys who

flew P-38s, I think they were as good as anyone else. When they got 51s they

proved it.) The early V-1650 was unreliable. P-51 units had as many aborts asP38.

There is faster way to kill confidence than to suffer from mechanical

failures…combat, hundreds of miles from safety. Remember, Mustangs did not

suffer aborts from engine failures. They simply crashed. Most mustang aborts

were due to less catastrophic problems.

>

>

>>The Merlin would have largely eliminated these problems.

>

>Not in early 44. It would also have reduced the range, but not made the 38

faster. Low alt climb would be better, high alt worse. Worst of all it woulddeprive the USAAF of two mustangs per merlin P-38.

Lockheed did its Merlin proposal in 1940. Obviously in plenty of time to make

the big show in 1943. As to costing two Mustangs per P-38...

Didn't you ever hear of increasing production? Building engines is

easy to do. The auto industry could have been producing Merlins

within 90 days.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan

The Planes and Pilots of WWII online magazine

http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/A member of the WWII Web-ring.

Honor and remember the WWII veterans.






http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/







>The 38 couldn't turn better than the fw190.( ref AFDU test of captured 190

vs P-38F).

>>>>There is a big difference between a P-38H/J and a P-38F Adrian,

especially in WEP output and hence power loading and thus sustainable

turn performance.

>

>The P-38F was tested against the captured 190A-3 with de-rated engine. That

sub-type had been in service for a year when the 38F came out. Later the 190s

de-rating was removed, and it got MW50 boost. The power loading differences

aren't so great, and have little effect on sustained turn because none of the

fighters of the time could sustain much of a turn anyway. A well-flown 190

wouldn't go near the best sustained speed of a P-38. I've read hundreds of

accounts of ETO combat. I'm sure you have too. I've seen very few accounts of

long turning fights or scissoring matches , or yo-yos. The account of the

38s turning over Ploesti in their defensive circle (not a bunch of nuggets,

but one of the top MTO groups), has the 109s ducking in and out of the circletaking snapshots, and the 38s unable to do anything but hang on. You'll find

it in Price's WW2 fighter combat book.

>

>

>>Why is it that instantaneous turn performance was not an issue for the P-38

in the Pacific where the opposition was exceptionally good at rolling/turning

maneuvers and highly inclined to practice acrobatically oriented maneuvers ?

>

>See the current Zero/P40 thread. Boom and zoom is the answer. It's easy to

excel when you have a 80mph speed advantage. That's what the 38 did not have

in the ETO. Although it was not much different in max speed compared to 190

below say 22,000 ft, its dive was inferior. At height the formations were

paralyzed by higher 109s.

Actually, the P-38 was notably faster than the 190 above 21,500 ft. At these

altitudes, the BMW radial was running out of breath. The Turbo Allisons,

OTOH,were still pumping out maximum power.

As to 109's paralyzing the P-38 Squadrons with greater height: That is far

too strong a word. The pilots who flew those mission would use a different

term. Harrassed, perhaps.

One other point, the P-38 did not have an 80 mph speed advantage over the Ki-

44, Ki-61, Ki-84, Ki-100, N1K1, N1K2, or the J2M. Especially below 20,000 ft.

were most PTO/SWPA/CBI combat took place. Furthermore, all the above listed

could dive with a P-38.

Typical speeds Avg. climb rate to alt. at left

Ki-44 378 mph @ 17,500 ft. / Climb: 3,700 fpm.



Ki-100 366 mph @ 19,700 ft. / Climb: 2,750 fpm

N1K1 363 mph @ 17,700 ft. / Climb: 2,510 fpm.

N1K2 371 mph @ 18,400 ft. / Climb: 2,675 fpm.

J2M3 365 mph @ 17,900 ft. / Climb: 3,570 fpm.





P-38G 345 mph @ 5,000 ft. / 402 mph @ 25,000 ft.(METO) / Climb: 2,885

fpm.avg.

P-38H 352 mph @ 5,000 ft. / 409 mph @ 22,000 ft.(METO) / Climb: 3,070

fpm.avg.

P-38J 360 mph @ 5,000 ft. / 421 mph @ 22,500 ft.(METO) / Climb: 3,585

fpm.avg.

P-38L 365 mph @ 5,000 ft. / 442 mph @ 22,500 ft. (WEP) / Climb: 3,750

fpm.avg.

The point of this chart is to illustrate that the speed advantage of the P-38

over many of the Japanese fighters was far less than 80 mph. Note that

several of the Japanese fighters held an advantage in climb rate up until the

Late J model and the big L. Every one of the Japanese fighters could match

the P-38 in a dive. The Ki-44, much like the Fw-190 could dive away from the

Lightning above 20,000 ft.

Your 80 mph claim is based upon the Ki-43 and early A6M. These two aircraft

do not accurately reflect the entirety of Japan's fighter forces. If anyone

should desire specific Japanese production numbers, I can post that data as

well.

>

>>There were obviously difficulties with training and tactics (read

experience) in the ETO. Blaming it on aircraft handling idiosyncrasies

is avoiding the issues.

>

>Performance, not handling. Dive speed and allowable angles mean a BnZ

surprise attack was not always easy to achieve. (15 degrees dive angle

limitation before the brakes).

This is not accurate. The P-38H could be dived vertically if the following

were observed:

1) Pull the power off.

2) Props to fine pitch.

3) Maneuver to kill excess speed.4) Below 15,000, adding power is safe.

In the J-25 of L, simply pop the dive flaps and go get 'em.

>Roll performance meaning the 190s anti-Spitfire tricks worked

against the 38. The tactics should have been the same as for the P-47. Dive,

zoom, don't mix it up.

>The groups were unable to make the formula work. Even Zemke had trouble.

They had plenty of experience by mid-44, but no improvement in kills ( they

did learn to survive a bit better than at the end of 43.).

Let's let Arthur Heiden address some of these issues. Via e-mail Art writes:

"Aug 43, 8thAF has retrieved some Bomber Gps and has several original

Spitfire/P-47 FGs. Two P-38 FGs, 1-P-51 FG that will not be operational tilllate Oct and have to workout tactics and maintenance problems, which all are

severe. Highly inadequate supply of A/C."

"Nov. 43, P-38Hs and P-51Bs beginning ops. Find themselves in a climate

environment none had experienced before and a superior opponent with 10 times

the numbers. Forced to take the bombers to, over and withdraw them. Lucky to

get half of what they had to the target after aborts/early returns. Sometimes

as few as four fighters made it to target under attack continuously going and



coming. Five minutes of METO power was planned into the profile. Meaning that

if you fought over five minuets you wouldn't make it home. Remember, you were

being bounced continuously."

"Feb 11, 44, 357thFG goes on Ops (P-51). 4thFG converts to P-51s. 2-weeks

later and other groups are converting by end of Feb. Now fighter groups don't

have to go the whole to, over, and from target. The escort is now

Penetration, Target, and Withdrawal, each leg is assigned to only one FG. andmany operational problems are being resolved. Internal fuel on P-38s has been

greatly increased with Wing and Leading edge tanks. P-47s are starting to get

external fuel tanks."

"The last half of 43 brought horrendous loses, had forced German

manufacturing underground and had forced Germany to go to synthetic oil. This

had increased the cost of war to increase exponentially to the Germans."

"Feb 44 we went back to Schwienfurt with acceptable loses. March 3rd the 20th

& 55thFGs went to Berlin--Bombers were recalled. March, April, and May

brought vicious battles, often with heavy loses. However, Germany were

throwing their valuable flight instructors and 100hr students in to the

battle. The Luftwaffe was at last starting to die."

"The 8th was, at last, being flooded with Mustangs and well trained pilots.

The Mustang was a delight to fly, easier to maintain cheaper to build and

train pilots for, and had long legs. In those respects you can rightfully

call it better,>>> but it could not do anything better than a P-38J-25 or

L.<<<

Just remember who took the war to the enemy and held on under inconceivable

odds. Enough of the crap."

My regards,

C.C. Jordan











[snip]

>

>>What speed? Most aerial contests took place at speeds between 200 and 300

mph IAS. Frequently, even slower. Why was this?

>

>It's unlikely that a properly flown 109 or 190 would want to engage at low

speed. 300 IAS is fast though. It's 450 at 25,000ft, isn't it? That's a dive









speed only for these guys. Over on the P-40/Zero thread you explained how the

P-40 is in no danger of losing the fight if he keeps his speed up. Why can't

our 190 pilot do the same?

I typed IAS by error. I should have written TAS. After one 360 degree turn,

one would be fortunate to being carrying 200 mph TAS into the next maneuver.

The Fw-190 is up against a faster machine. The P-38J-25-LO or the P-38L-5-LOcan out-run, out-climb and out-turn the 190. The old split-s doesn't work

very well against these P-38's either. They can and will follow. The P-38 can

beatthe 190 at whatever game the German wants to play. BnZ, stall fighting,

either way the German is in serious danger.

Even the 190's faster roll rate, in a turn or even a split-s, the P-38 will

be, what, 1/2 second behind in a 180 roll? That isn't anything to crow about.

Why? Because, the Lightning accelerates very quickly in a dive. Or if the 190

rolls to some other vector, the P-38, while beginning in a lag pursuit

position, will quickly pull through to a lead pursuit. About all the 190

driver can hope to do is roll and pull, roll and pull, hoping that the P-38

pilot loses sight long enough to allow the 190 to extend away. Note also that

all this rolling and pulling will be downhill. Uphill, the P-38 will eat him

alive.

>

>>At 200 mph, torque is a significant problem for the Fw-190 or the 109.

>

>If it's equal to aileron torque at 100mph, which it has to be for low speed

safety, then it's 25% at 200mph. Enough to affect roll rate, sure, but who's

gonna roll to the right given a choice. and even if they do, they'll be

inverted before a P-38.

That's assuming he does not snap stall.

>(Single-engine planes have rudders too.)

Yes and they are trimmed to counter torque. Something the P-38 does notneed to do.

>

>

>

>>Even rolling faster into a turn is of dubious value when the enemy

(in this case, a P-38) while a tad slower rolling, can easily cut across your

best turn. Get him rolling, then reverse.

But, the smart 38 driver can counter with a tightened chandelle/high yo-yo,

coming out on the Fw's six with altitude to covert to speed. This is an

excellent counter to being beat on the reverse. Do it right and you have

maintained the tactical advantage. Do it wrong, and the Fw gets away.

>You know all this perfectly well. What your

>saying is that once a 38 is in your six, in range, with a little overtake,

he has a shot. Wouldn't that apply to any fighter? You still have a better

shot at a break turn against a 38 than any other US fighter.

I decided to ask a P-38 pilot about this comment. His response:

"No way. The 190 was a great roller, but not much better than a 38J-25.

Even flying my J-10, I could hang on to him good enough. Let the Kraut



reverse all he wants. The more reverses, the slower he gets. The slower he

gets, the sooner he gets drilled."

>But you only break long enough to lose him. Then you're gone.

The problem is, you won't lose him.

>The way a P-40 might handle a Zero in his six.>The way the BnZ fighter always has, when bounced.

Here's the problem with your argument. If you wait until the Zero is close on

your six to break, he just might shoot you down, or at least make some holes

in your P-40. Why? Because a break turn will eat your energy, and the Zeke

will jump all over you unless you pitch over and run. If you make more than

one or two break turns, the Zero will break you down to a stall and kill you

dead.

You had better spot him before he gets close enough to fire. That way you can

break into his attack, creating a meeting engagement which will allow you to

extend some to gain airspeed after passing.

Another reason this does not apply is that the P-40 is 30 mph faster than theA6M2. The Fw is slower than the P-38. Therefore, it has no speed advantage to

exploit.

>

>>Does the fact that there were a hell of a lot more Mustangs and T-Bolts

than Lightnings mean anything to you?

>>

>

>Two things. One, that they were preferred to Lightning because of better

ability.

I have spoken with and read the writings of a fair amount of pilots who flew

both the P-38 and the P-51 in combat in the ETO. Not one of them, not Heiden,

nor Ilfrey, nor Ceuleers, agrees with that statement. Even the guys whopreferred the Mustang will tell you that the P-38,especially the later

variants, gave nothing up to the P-51 in ACM.

>Two, when there were two groups of 38s and two of 51s, the 51s

out-scored the 38s, on the SAME MISSIONS, by six to one, taking slightly

higher losses. And as you know, I've quoted kills and losses per sortie.

Groups would operate in their own area, so the presence of more P-47 groups

elsewhere wouldn't affect kils/sortie for any one group.

I have posted Art Heiden's answer to this. Only the P-38 flew the entire

mission on most deep penetrations.

>

>>>Until Doolittle released the fighters from close escort, the P-38 was

>>stuck staying close to the bombers.

>>

>

>Same missions, same rules, mustangs out-scored 38s by six to one. SIX. 6.

They outscored the 38 in the MTO too, probably by a lesser factor.

By May of '44 the P-38's were detailed to far more pre-invasion ground work

than the Mustangs, who were escort fighters first and foremost.



>

>>No he won't. He'll be 20 miles away and far below the bombers. To try to

climb back up is suicide. Once you bug out for the deck, your day is

done.

>

>Not so. He's under orders to go to the nearest field , refuel and join a

scratch group to engage again. Before the close escort rule ended he couldclimb back to the next bomb wing say five miles out parallel to the bomber

stream and the escort was forbidden to bother him. See your own post.

Much of this depends on where he is in relation to the target and the egress

route. If he is within 100 miles of the target, he will be hard pressed to

return. Figure on 90 minutes to land, refuel, rearm and climb out to

altitude, at a minimum. All of this assumes he has not suffered any battle

damage.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan


http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/A member of the WWII Web-ring.






Subject: Re: What is the weakness of Zero?Date: 26 Jan 1999 00:22:51 GMT

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:57:47 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,

> Carlo Kopp <[email protected]> wrote:

>

>>Use of differential throttle, power boosted ailerons, and rudder could not

accelerate roll entries on the P-38J/L. This despite some very detailed

discussion of the handling issues and the performance

attributes of the aircraft.

Oh yeah? My contacts with 5th Air Force 38 drivers say that, yes, the

throttles were used to induce or assist a roll. I am querying my 8th AF

contacts for their recollections as well.

My regards to all,

C.C. Jordan







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Subject: Re: U.S. 55th Fighter Group (was: something else)Date: 4 Feb 1999 10:40:32 GMT

On 4 Feb 1999 06:51:17 GMT, [email protected] (DBSDESIGN) wrote:

>Carlo Kopp <[email protected]> wrote:

>

One important factor that has been overlooked by this debate is the effect of

mechanical failures on the effectiveness of the 20th and 55th FG's.

Additionally, the missions of late 1943 and early 1944 were often flown

with the majority of the aircraft being the P-38H. This is important to

the results. Worse still, was the policy of placing pilots without regard to

their previous training.

After talking to several of the pilots involved in these early missions, some

simple conclusions can be drawn.

1) On the typical mission (deep escort) as many as 60% of the fighters

were forced to turn back due to engine failures and related problems.

2) It is impossible to generate high kill numbers when the Group can only put

as few as 12 fighters over the target.

3) The P-38H had considerably less fuel capacity than the P-38J. The net

result being that these fighters had considerably less reserves for combat.

On some missions, spending more than 5 minutes at METO power meant that you

would not have enough fuel remaining to cross the Channel on the return trip.

Thus, the pilots were forced to fly at reduced power settings or break off

combat and head for home.

4) Replacement pilots. One veteran reports that not one replacement pilot

received by his unit had any twin engine time. All were single engine trained.

Therefore, the learning curve was very steep. New pilots arriving in Britain

and slated for P-47 and P-51 Groups were first assigned to ground school and

spent many hours being instructed in the in's and out's of combat flying.

Those earmarked for P-38 units were simply delivered to their squadron and

any training received was usually limited to a quick checkout. They learned

how to fly the 38 on actual missions. The 8th AF did not provide ANY training

for the P-38 designates, while those destined for single engine fighters went

through an extensive ground school and at least 40 hours of training flights.

Therefore, when you lost your experienced pilots, you went back to squareone. What is even more remarkable is that several hundred pilots coming from

stateside P-38 RTU's, were assigned to P-47 and P-51 squadrons!!

But, they at least got some training in Britain before venturing out to

combat. Whereas those pilots trained on T-Bolts and Mustangs in RTU's were

suddenly thrust into complex multi-engine fighters without much more than the

standard "good luck Mac". So remember, when an experienced P-38 pilot was

lost, they were almost always replaced by a pilot WHO HAD NEVER EVEN SAT IN A

P-38. Arthur Heiden was one of the exceptions. He, at least, went thru an P-

38 RTU prior to being assigned to the 20th FG in Feb. '44. Perhaps that is

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why Art survived well over 300 hours in combat in the 38. Add to that another

40 to 50 combat hours in Mustangs.

This illustrates the error of simply citing stats to make a case. Without an

understanding of the circumstances that produced the stats, the wrong

conclusions will, almost always, be arrived at. Moreover, many of the pilots

who flew these aircraft are available to provide the circumstances. Not to

use their knowledge and experience to provide context for the statistics isthe ultimate "blunder".

My regards,

C.C. Jordan










On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:20:35 +0000, "Paul J. Adam" <[email protected]>

wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, C.C. Jordan

><[email protected]> writes

4) Replacement pilots. One veteran reports that not one replacement pilot

received by his unit had any twin engine time. All were single enginetrained. Therefore, the learning curve was very steep. New pilots arriving in

Britain and slated for P-47 and P-51 Groups were first assigned to ground

school and spent many hours being instructed in the in's and out's of combat

flying.

>>Those earmarked for P-38 units were simply delivered to their squadron and

any training received was usually limited to a quick checkout. They learned

how to fly the 38 on actual missions.

>

>At this point, I swear loudly and profanely; startling my wife, scaring the

cat and scorching the paint on the walls.

>

>I've been scanning this thread with interest but without depth, since

>it's being handled by people far more expert than I in the period and

>the aircraft, but this I could not let pass.>

>CC, I don't doubt your posting, it's just that what you say is all but

>incredible to me. Probably it's too much hindsight, but were the 8th

>Air Force really throwing in pilots at the level of Derek Robinson's

>fictional RAF replacements from "Piece of Cake"?

>

>

>"How many hours in Hurricanes?"

>









>"Twelve, sir."

>

>"Do much gunnery practice?"

>

>"Well... they said we could learn that at our squadron, sir."

Paul, I spent a great deal of time on the phone and scanning through e-mail

gathering facts from the guys who flew the fighters. By March 1944, the 8thAF was not very careful about who was assigned to the P-38 Groups. These

pilots had better that 100 hours in fighters, but most had zero time in the

38. The 8th managed to create a situation which they then tried to rectify by

juggling around Group leadership. The whole episode was badly handled from

the outset. Doolittle decided that the quickest solution was to get rid of

the 38's.

Remarkably, the 20th and 55th Groups were barely able to get 5 to 10 hours in

the Mustangs before they went operational. They simply climbed aboard with

the TOs.

I'll let Art Heiden explain;

"P-51 Transition: We got the TO's and especially the Flight 01, tried to

memorize it, sat in the airplane till able to give each other blindfoldchecks and cranked up and went flying. We were to get 5hr's flying time

before combat."

One can see the lack of emphasis placed on fighter pilot training in the 8th.

Especially when it came to the P-38 Groups.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan










On 6 Feb 1999 16:16:32 GMT, [email protected] (C.C. Jordan) wrote:

>On 6 Feb 1999 13:13:58 GMT, [email protected] (Bejewelled) wrote:>

>>>However, in late '43 to early '44 the 20th and 55th did not lack for

targets. Their problem was one of too many German figthers. They were so

badly out-numbered that they were totally defensive for most of the mission.

>>

>>I'd like to see the German reaction figures, on what were often over-sea

missions to coastal targets. I'd like to compare this out-numbered thing

with, say, Battle of Britain, Malta, Java, Bataan, Guadalcanal, JG27 in the

desert, whatever you like. When the 354th had aborts in Dec-Jan 44, same









missions as the 55th and 20th, they seem to have got a lot of kills. Remember

that as late as October 43 they were in the USA flying P-39s.

>

>Adrian, you never cease to amaze me with your fixation for numbers.

>Never mind that the combat reports and mission debrief records show

>P-38 pilots reporting "at least six large groups of fighters of at least 50

planes each." You tend to discount comments such as " After they came through

our formation I didn't see anyone except my wingman until we reached theChannel. I did see a hell of a lot of 109's. They were everywhere, dozens of

them." Or, " I was too busy trying to shake them off of my tail to do much

else. I did get a few snap shots at a couple but I didn't see any strikes."

>When one pilot was asked by a debriefing officer, "Didn't you pursue the

Messerschmitts?" He responded with anger: "Listen Major, I had five of 'em on

my tail. So, the last thing I was thinking about was chasing the other ones."

>

>Those are but a few of many reports that all indicate that the P-38 Groups

faced very lopsided odds over Germany during the time span in question.

>Besides, I'm quite sure that the Luftwaffe records will show 200 to 400

fighters opposing deep penetrations during that same time window.

>

>As to your comparisons...

>>The Battle of Britain: Escorting German fighters were within 100 miles

>of a friendly air field, frequently much less than that. We should also

remember that the Brits did not have a significant advantage in numbers of

fighters. What hurt the Luftwaffe was being required to fly close escort.

>The 8th AF would make the same mistake three years later.

>

>The rest of your selections are not applicable because in each case

the defending and out-number fighters fought in close proximity to their own

air fields. The Lightnings were hundreds of miles inside enemy air space.

That is a major stumbling block to any attempt at making comparisons. It

does, however, clearly illustrate how statistics can be removed from context

and mis-applied. Please don't take this as an insult Adrian, it's not meant

to be one, but.... I honestly don't think you have yet developed the tactical

perception to correctly apply the numbers that you have so far crunched.Don't be surprised that I say this. Most of the kind people who inhabit this

group have not developed that same tactical perception either. That is

another advantage of the combat pilot, he understands that once in combat,

all bets are off, all plans fall apart and statistical analysis is of no

value. Luck, both good and bad, supersedes skill and courage much of the time.

Some additional citations as to the ratio of Luftwaffe fighters to AAF

escorts.

Bob Johnson:

"I was on three of the early Berlin raids. I was the lead airplane on

March 6. I had only eight airplanes to protect 180 bombers."

Later he spotted fighters heading towards the heavies. At first he thoughtthat they were P-47's from the 56th. They turned out to be Focke Wulfs.

"We were line abreast, all eight of us and we just opened fire and went right

through some 60 or so 190s and 109s. As we turned to get on their tails, we

saw another 60 or so above and another 60 or so to their left. Probably 175 -

180 German aircraft. Eight of us."

After the fight erupted into a free for all, Johnson comments:



"I didn't have to think about the situation, it was there. I thought only of

survival, and hitting the enemy. If there are crosses, shoot at 'em."

An additional citation about the training given pilots reporting to P-38

Groups:

Max Woolley of the 364th FG says:

"I had about four or five hours of training in England before I went 'active'.

A pilot learned combat by being in combat."

On March 15th, Woolley's squadron ran into what he estimates as 120 German

fighters. The rest of the Group was about 5 miles away when his squadron C.O.

led them into the Germans. Only 12 P-38s taking on ten times as many of the

Luftwaffe. This was Woolley's first combat mission. After surviving by out-

turning several 109s who had worked onto his tail and shredding the rudder of

one 109, Woolley noted that the fight had been "a great lesson."

My regards,

C.C. Jordan

The Planes and Pilots of WWII online magazinehttp://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/







Subject: Re: U.S. 55th Fighter Group (was: something else)

Date: 11 Feb 1999 14:31:58 GMT

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:31:26 +0200, Yama <[email protected]> wrote:

>C.C. Jordan wrote:

>>

>> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:30:26 -0500, Bob Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >

>> >The Merlin powered P-51 was faster than the P-38L at all altitudes.

>>

>> This is incorrect. The L was capable of 442 mph in WEP at 22,500 ft.

>> Futhermore, the L was still producing 1,320 hp per engine at 30,000 ft.

>> The Merlin was down to 1,090 hp at this height. The turbos were more

>> efficient than the Merlin's blower.

>>All figures I've seen about top speed of P-38J/L are in the range of

>660-680km/h, that is 410-422mph. In what configuration L was

>supposed to break 710km/h (about same than P-51D)? Painted, guns

>loaded, all equipment onboard? How much fuel? Italian and French

>manufacturers, for example, almost always presented performance

>figures which were 5-10% better than in real life, because they used

>'Reno configuration'.

The most commonly printed max speed numbers for the P-38L state









414 mph. How interesting. Consider that the L was fitted with the -30

Allisons, as opposed to the -17 on the J. There is a big difference, and I'll

go into that a little later.

The typical numbers presented for the J are 421 mph IN WEP.

The typical numbers presented for the L are 414 mph IN METO.

This is one of the pitfalls of using commercially available data. It

usually isn't researched very well. The difference between METO andWEP is 600 hp. The -30 produced a minimum of 1,725 hp in WEP.

As opposed to 1,425 hp in METO.

The -17 installed in the P-38J had the same METO rating as the -30

at 1,425 hp. However, the -17 only made 1,600 hp in WEP. The

additional power could push the L to speeds over 440 mph. Warren

Bodie concludes the maximum speed in WEP as 443 mph at altitudes

between 20,000 and 23,500 ft. Bodie obtained his data directly from

Lockheed, where he was employed as an engineer on the U-2 and

F-117 programs. Therefore, I tend to accept Bodie as a more credible

source than Green and Swanborough et al.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan










On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:07:08 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,

> [email protected] (C.C. Jordan) wrote:

>

><snip>

>

>> The most commonly printed max speed numbers for the P-38L state

>> 414 mph. How interesting. Consider that the L was fitted with the -30

Allisons, as opposed to the -17 on the J. There is a big difference, and I'll

go into that a little later.>>

>> The typical numbers presented for the J are 421 mph IN WEP.

>

>Which J, with or without leading edge tanks? This looks like a -15 with

them.

>

>> The typical numbers presented for the L are 414 mph IN METO.

>> This is one of the pitfalls of using commercially available data. It

>> usually isn't researched very well. The difference between METO and









>> WEP is 600 hp. The -30 produced a minimum of 1,725 hp in WEP.

>> As opposed to 1,425 hp in METO.

>>

>> The -17 installed in the P-38J had the same METO rating as the -30

>> at 1,425 hp. However, the -17 only made 1,600 hp in WEP. The

>> additional power could push the L to speeds over 440 mph. Warren

>> Bodie concludes the maximum speed in WEP as 443 mph at altitudes

>> between 20,000 and 23,500 ft. Bodie obtained his data directly from>> Lockheed, where he was employed as an engineer on the U-2 and

>> F-117 programs. Therefore, I tend to except Bodie as a more credible

>> source than Green and Swanborough et al.

>

>C.C., a couple of points. First, in addition to being heavier (so more

induced drag), IIRC the L had the APS-13 tail warning radar, which had an

external antenna. This had to add a parasitic drag component, and at the

speeds in question it may have been significant (I don't know).

Second, judging by an anecdote recounted in the Osprey book on the F-101,

Lockheed seems to have had a bit of a reputation among other manufacturers

for overstating their performance data. Whether this is true in this

particular case, I don't know, but until we get official air force

performance numbers at WEP, I'd hold off judgment.

The WEP numbers for the P-38J ARE USAAF numbers. From the Experimental

Engineering Division, Fighter Branch. 421.5 mph@25,800 ft. The aircraft was a

J-10 # 42-67869. Takeoff weight was 15,597 lbs with ammo ballast.

As to drag, I doubt that APS-13 antenna made any more drag than a couple of

static wicks or a single unsnapped Dzus fastener.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan



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On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:35:16 -0500, Bob Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:

>

>

>"C.C. Jordan" wrote:

>

>> The typical numbers presented for the J are 421 mph IN WEP.

>> The typical numbers presented for the L are 414 mph IN METO.

>> This is one of the pitfalls of using commercially available data. It

>> usually isn't researched very well. The difference between METO and

>> WEP is 600 hp. The -30 produced a minimum of 1,725 hp in WEP.









>

>>

>> The -17 installed in the P-38J had the same METO rating as the -30

>> at 1,425 hp. However, the -17 only made 1,600 hp in WEP. The

>> additional power could push the L to speeds over 440 mph. Warren

>> Bodie concludes the maximum speed in WEP as 443 mph at altitudes

>> between 20,000 and 23,500 ft. Bodie obtained his data directly from

>> Lockheed, where he was employed as an engineer on the U-2 and>> F-117 programs. Therefore, I tend to except Bodie as a more credible

>> source than Green and Swanborough et al.

>

>If Lockheed was testing its own aircraft, I would call this commercially

available data :)

It should be obvious that Lockheed would do exhaustive testing on their

own aircraft. Lockheed's internal test reports were not released publically.

Nor were Allison's.

>

>Without knowing how this plane was loaded or configured (ammo, bombracks,

fuel load), or how its engines were tuned and prepped for the test, I would

stick with the figures which at least claim to be measured 'under typicalcombat loads'.

The testing in question is always performed at combat weight with ballast

added for ammunition. In other words, full load, clean configuration.

>

>I'm sure Lockheed could get a P-38L to hit 443 mph, but I wonder how fast

North American could get a P-51D to go? :)

443 in WEP.... That means you have about 5 minutes of maximum horsepower.

The above speed is not sustainable. Nor, for that matter is METO sustainable.

Why? Overheating. Even for the Mustang, METO was not sustainable for long

periods.

>

>Also, the published WEP hp for the -30 is 1600, where does 1725 come from?

The difference represents 9% of a power setting which is already supposed to

be extremely high.

There's that word again: "Published". Published by who?

Allison spent a great deal of time and money on the "dash thirty" program.

They produced volumes of dynometer data for Lockheed and the AAF.

Lockheed did their own testing and confirmed the Allison numbers. Hence, the

installation of the -30 in the L model.

The following are the CORRECT stats for the Allison V-1710F-30.

Write 'em down somewhere....

Ratings [minutes] Power RPM Manifold [in.Hg] Altitude [ft]

Normal (no limit) 1,100 2,600 44 30,000

Take Off (5) 1,475 3,000 54 SL

Military (15) 1,475 3,000 54 30,000

WEP (5) 1,725 3,000 60 28,700

My regards,

C.C. Jordan




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"In reality, there exists only fact and fiction. Opinions result froma lack of the former and a reliance on the latter."



Subject: Re: P-51/MerlinDate: 7 Jul 1999 00:11:54 -0400

On Wed, 07 Jul 1999 18:38:32 GMT, [email protected] (Gavin Bailey)

wrote:

>On 6 Jul 1999 03:56:46 GMT, [email protected] (C.C. Jordan)

>wrote:

>>I think you are confusing the Lockheed model 322 program with a Merlin

powered P-38. The 322 was ordered by Britain. Unfortunately, they insisted on

deleting the turbochargers and wanted the engines to rotate in the same

direction. Both requests were remarkably short sighted and in simple terms,

stupid.

>Why? The turbochargers had numerous problems when deployed in USAAF

>P-38's later in the war, and the Mosquito and Lancaster and almost

>every other British aircraft apart from the Hornet managed fine with

>single-rotational engines.

Gavin, the turbochargers were remarkably reliable. Even in the cold of

30,000 feet of Germany the turbos were seldom a problem. There were someproblems with frozen turbo regulators, but they were not excessive. The big

problem was the Allison engines coming apart due to burned pistons and

valves. This was rectified by reformulated higher octane fuel and a redesign

of the intake plenum.

The main reason for right and left "handed" engines was to eliminate

torque. You could change power settings in the P-38 and not have to

retrim the airplane. The P-38 did not require generous amounts of rudder

when advancing the throttles on takeoff. To quote one notorious P-38 pilot:

"Because the engines rotated in opposite directions, they produced a

symmetrical slip stream flow which eliminated the need the carry rudder

displacement, thus reducing a source of drag. And there was no change in

trim with changes in speed, which was a pure blessing in maneuver combat."

Lanc's and Mossies were not dogfighters. Sorry Mossie fans, it was a great

aircraft, but it could not hold a candle to a Lightning as a fighter.

>The later versions of the P-38 were very potent aircraft, but that

>doesn't detract from the fact that the earlier versions were somewhat

>less successful (although still good operational aircraft).



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All combat versions of the P-38 were potent aircraft. The P-38F beat the hell

out of the Luftwaffe in North Africa, Sicily and Italy. The G was better than

the F. The H was better than the G. The J was better than the H and the L was

the best of the lot, fully equal to anything flying(piston engine) in the

ETO. However, the P-38F was still a match for the FW-190A and better than

the Me-109F or G.

The P-38 was the most successful fighter in the Pacific war. In the Med, ithad no equal until the the P-51D arrived. And the Mustang's only edge was in

speed between 22,000 and 27,000 feet. The P-38 was a better dogfighter and

climbed at a rate 20% better than the P-51D. The P-38 had a greater range

than the Mustang too.

Early war P-38 ops proved beyond any doubt that it was a first rate

fighter.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan

The Planes and Pilots of WWII Internet Magazine

http://www.worldwar2aviation.com




Subject: Re: P-51/MerlinDate: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 01:22:53 GMT

On 18 Jul 1999 12:06:44 -0400, [email protected] (Gavin Bailey)

wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:00:40 GMT, [email protected] (DBSDESIGN) wrote:

>

>>Anyway, the Spitfire pilot was supposed to land after the>>engagement to lecture on the excellence of his ship except

>>that he never landed. He returned to his base and was never

>>heard from again.

>

>Interesting, if true. However, most sources give the Spitfire XIV a

>better performance than this account would give credit for - e.g. the

>rate of climb for the P-38L and Spit XIV were similar. In fact the

>earlier, single-stage supercharge Griffon II-powered Spitfire XII had

>comparable (in fact slightly better) performance figures at low and

>mid-altitudes than the P-38L (372mph @ 5,700ft and 397mph @ 18,000ft).

The basic performance figures for the P-38L are as follows (from Lockheed

factory test logbooks):

Max speed at sea level: 352 mph

Max speed at 5,500 ft : 369 mph

Max speed at 23,500 ft. 440 mph (WEP) 5 minutes max.

Max speed at critical alt: 444 mph @ 25,800 (WEP) 5 minutes max.

>

>

>It might be worth restarting the relevant performance figures of the

>Spitfire XIV with the improved Griffon 65 at this point - climb to

http://www.worldwar2aviation.com/






>20,000ft in just over 5 mins, 40,000ft in 15 minutes and a maximum

>speed of 447mph @ 25,600ft (approx 370mph @ 2,000ft) and a service

>ceiling of 44,500ft.

The P-38L, continued

Max climb rate at sea level: 4,225 fpm (50% fuel, normal ammo)

Max climb rate at 23,400 ft: 3,940 fpmTime to 23,400 ft: 5.94 minutes

Time to 30,000 ft: 8.86 minutes

Service Ceiling: 44,000 ft.

Add to this the ability to carry up to 4,000 lbs of underwing ordnance

and an absolute maximum range of just over 3,000 miles, and one can

see that the P-38 is a superb fighter. By the way, the bomb max bomb

load and max range are, naturally, mutually exclusionary.

>

>So far as I am aware, all of these figures exceed the performance of

>the P-38L Lightning, although I would say that both aircraft were

>broadly in the same category in terms of performance. Too much

>attention tends to be paid to paper performance figures in this kind>of debate, but then these debates are usually fuelled by (understandably)

individual subjective prejudice more than anything

As you can see, the Spitfire Mk.XIV is in a virtual dead heat with the P-38L.

One of the major misconceptions to evolve since the war was that the P-38 was

generally inferior to the other major American and British fighters. This

unfounded belief is difficult to overcome because of 54 years of status quo

aviation and history writing.

Great fighters have certain characteristics that if exploited, can be

overpowering to an enemy. Bob Johnson showed that the P-47D could

easily over-match the Spitfire IX if one avoided a turning engagement and

used the superior roll rate, dive acceleration, speed and zoom ability of the

Thunderbolt.

Remember this rule, it is the gospel (prior to missiles):

"The faster fighter determines the rules of engagement."

In the case of a P-38L vs a Spitfire Mk.XIV, the fighter carrying the

greater speed into the fight will likely win, pilot skill being equal.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan


http://www.worldwar2aviation.comHonor and remember the WWII veterans.



Subject: Re: Mosquito vs Fortress (again) (was: Lancaster)Date: 25 Feb 2000 08:39:34 -0500

On 24 Feb 2000 00:16:01 -0500, Harri Pihl <[email protected]> wrote:


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>"C.C. Jordan" kirjoitti:

>

>> When we look at a resin impregnated, molded plywood such as that

>> used in the Mosquito, we will see that the material's modulus of rigidity

>> and modulus of elasticity is substantially below that of the commonly used

>> aluminum alloys of the time. Moreover, the yield strength of the plywood

>> is much lower as well.>

>Well, this is partially true but Mosquito was made from plywood and

>balsa composite. This stuff was much thicker (20-30mm) than conventional

>moulded plywood (3-10mm) but still lighter. And overall molded plywood

>is very rigid if stress can be divided to large area, this is why

>plywood molded fuselages were generally pretty light and strong.

Yes, molded plywood can be quite rigid, but as I said above, the yield

strength is relatively low. Under localized stress, the plywood will fail

before alloy.

>Infact my opinion is that Mosquitos fuselage was probaly lightest possible

and

>light alloy construction could not have been any lighter. BTW De>Haviland used this sanwich system even in their jets (Vampires front

>fuselage) despite there was no shortage of light alloys.

Again, this is a given. lightly stressed areas of the airframe can be

constructed of wood. However, the problem with the material is its

inability to handle high stress. The Mosquito was not certified for the

g loads commonly experienced in fighters. IIRC, the Mossy was stressed

for 6.5 g momentary, and only 5 g's sustained. That is a direct reflection

on its construction material.

>

>But in wing construction situation is different;

Indeed it is. The tail surfaces are another area where high stressesare encountered. Again, that is why the Mosquito was g limited.

>

>> Let's look at a comparible aircraft, in terms of size. An Me 110 has

similar dimensions and wing area. Yet, the 110 weighs considerably less empty

than the Mosquito, empty.

>

>This kind of comparision is plain bogus. Mosquito is faster, it has

>longer range, normally it carries heavier bomb load and so on...

How is this bogus? Speed has nothing to do with the issue. Neither

does range. Bomb load?

>Why don't you compare the P-38J and the Mosquito? P-38J was smaller and ithad higher empty weight than Mosquito (6400kg vs. 6000kg).

You have overlooked several important factors.

1) The P-38s gun suite weighed 621 lbs. A normal ammo load weighed

in at 712 lbs., not counting the links. So, you already have 1,333 lbs.

Remove another 245 lbs of armor and the P-38 is now actually lighter than the

Mosquito. You need also understand that the P-38J was stressed for 7.5 g

continuous. Therefore, it is constructed for far higher stresses than the

Mossy. Comparing the P-38J to the Mosquito is a true apples and oranges



equation. Actually, the Me 110 is a better choice because of the closer match

in size and designed stress considerations.

>Overall the Mosquito was pretty light aircraft and very good evidence

>which proves that wooden aircraft can be light and strong if right

>construction techniques are used.

More importantly, the Mosquito was designed as a bomber, not a fighter.

It was not designed for the extreme g levels of high speed aerial combat.

> Another good example is lightened LaGG-3 from 1943.

>Well Mr. Jordan, seems that you have learned something about aircraft

>contruction,

I can always learn something. However, I was trained in aircraft maintenance

and repair in the military. I have participated in the building of three

home-built composite construction aircraft. 24 years ago, I was part of a

design

team that developed a successful Formula car chassis (aluminum monocoque

tub). I am not ignorant of the subject of aircraft construction.

>last summer you wrote something about benefits of the high

>wing loading ;)

Stable gun platform, superior weather penetration, stable bombing platform,

etc.

Two can play this silly game......

I seem to recall that you argued that the P-38, with dive flaps deployed was

still all but out of control. You argued despite my having Tony LeVier and

Jimmy Mattern's test reports right in front of me. Mattern said that the P-38

was "as docile as a kitten when the dive flaps were out." Corwin "Corky"

Meyer agrees.

You wrote:

"In this thread I have seen parts of Le Viers test report and I agree

that with dive brakes P-38 could dive better than without them. But

Le Viers test report is also very clear prove that diving qualities

of the P-38L were still far from acceptable; plane was hardly under

control."

Get a copy of the WWII Fighter issue of Flight Journal magazine and

read Meyer's test report on the P-38 with dive flaps. Corky was Grumman's

chief test pilot (after Bob Hall).

My regards,

C.C. Jordan

http://www.worldwar2aviation.com - The Planes and Pilots of WWII Internet Magazine

http://www.cradleofaviation.org - Cradle of Aviation Museum




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Subject: Re: P-38 with Merlin EnginesDate: 17 Aug 1998 04:05:37 GMT

On 16 Aug 1998 20:25:09 GMT, "Edward L. Prichard" <[email protected]> wrote:

>OK. so Warren Bodie's book on the P-38 "Lightning" was right: General

>Motors' political influence kept the P-38 from having the wretched Allison

engines replaced by the Merlins. Is this new news? Politics and money donot care about death. But Bodie has a tantalizing look at the Lockheed test

of a Merlin 60 powered Lightning.

Bodie describes a Merlin powered P-38. However, no sample was ever built.

Re-read what Bodie has written. Lockheed went as far as designing an

installation package in the hope that the Brits would want to try the

conversion. They didn't and neither did the U.S. War Production Board. All

numbers cited by Bodie are PROJECTED performance figures, not actual test

data.

>Think about that: Not a crappy Allison

V-1710 with its inability to handle high-altitude temperatures, forcing man

P-38's to return home before their escort mission with 8th. AF. But--withoutthe turbo-superchargers, and the attendant plumbing, (and weight) and huge

frontal area for air-to air intercooling....???

Crappy Allison??!! Hardly.

First off, let's look at the facts before we start making unsupportable

claims.

1) When used in the Pacific and MTO, the Allison engine proved to be at

least as reliable as the Merlin 61 used in the P-51B, C, D, and K.

2) It is just as cold at 30,000 feet over Leyte as it is at 30,000 feet over

Germany in the dead of winter. So why weren't they having problems

at altitude anywhere but the ETO?. Two big reasons. Low grade fuel.

Turbocharged engines cannot survive long on 87 octane dishwater. Once

the problem was traced to poor fuel, detonation failures were non-existent.The second problem was turbocharger/oilcooler related. It seems that the

turbos require consistent oiling or the bearings fail very quickly. Earlier

model Lighnings were mostly afflicted with this type of failure. I spoke to a

crewchief of a P-38 about a year ago. He claims that up to half of the turbo

failures were due to pilots flying at cruise setting with the cooler doors

wide open. The oil temperature would drop below recommended levels and the

viscosity would rise significantly. Worse, the pilots normally cruised at

very low MAP and relatively high RPM. This would reduce cylinder headtemps to

the operational minimum. The combination of the two would almost

always lead to turbo failure. Had the pilots used high MAP / low RPM cruise

settings, cylinder head temps would have remained in the center of the gauge

and would have kept much more heat in the engine, and by extension, the oil.

Add to this the relative crudeness of 1940's turbocharger technology.

Turbocharger overspeeding was one problem that would occur. Spin too fast,

and it will eventually come apart.

As to the reduction of frontal area. Yes, a Merlin installation would be

cleaner. It would likely resemble the export model Lightning I that the Brits

ordered without the turbos. The so called' "castrated Lightnings". Except,

the thrustline was higher on the Merlin and would have required a slightly

taller nacelle. Please take note that the Merlin originally considered for

the conversion was the Merlin XX. This is the same engine that powered the

Hurricane Mk.II series. This engine was not a stellar performer above 25,000

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feet. Using the Merlin 61 would have been far better. However, this engine

was not available in 1941 when Lockheed looked at the concept.

>

>What I want to know is this: where is the test report of the P-38 test with

Merlins on board?

As stated, no test report exists because the plane was never built.

>That would mean no air-to air intercolers, but air to

>liquid and the smoothing of the P-38 forward nacelles--increasing the

>critical Mach number.

The critical Mach of the P-38 was not related to the intercooler installation.

The cleaner Brit export model had the same critical Mach as any other

variant. What limited the critical Mach was the airfoil design. This is why

the P-38 would get into compressability trouble so quickly. The dive flap

installation on later "J" models and all "L" models prevented the airflow

across the underside of the wing from reaching supersonic. This allowed the

P-38 to dive at high speed and retain control. It did not, however,significantly raise the critical Mach. It only allowed some control within

that regime.

> And the Merlin never had a problem with high altitude!

The Merlin XX sure did ! By late 1943, all of the problems had been worked

out of the V-1710. With the introduction of the P-38L, there was no reason to

consider the Merlin. Not even the Merlin 61. Why? Because the Allison V-

1710F-30 engine handily out-performed the Merlin 61 in the Mustang at all

altitudes, and especially above 25,000 feet. The late model Allison engines

were superb. Remember, they were selected (supercharged version)for the P-82

twin Mustang. The P-38L was making up to 1,725 hp per engine in WEP, and at30,000 ft, was still making 1,390 hp in Military power. Whereas, the P-51's

Merlin V-1650 was down from 1,520 hp to about 1,030 hp. At these heights, the

P-38L would simply walk away from the Mustang. We must not forget the Allison

powered P-38L could out-climb the P-51D by a factor of 30%,

at any altitude. Few aircraft, from any nation, could out-perform the P-38

above 30,000 feet. The P-47M was faster. So was the Ta-152H. But neither of

these could survive a turning fight with the P-38L, again, at any altitude.

>(If only General Bullmoose would have allowed it: "What is good

>for General Motors is good for the country." And thank you Al Capp.)

>Did General Motors sacrifice American aviators to sell engines--and junk

engines at that--to maintain market positions? No one but a nazi-communist

would think that! Meanwhile, does anyone know where I can get a copy of theLockheed report on the flight tests of the Merlin-powered P-38?

Nowhere. None exists. Sorry.

However, if you really want to get you hackels up, read about the P-38K

andwhy the War Production Board killed it. The P-38K would have been the best

fighter available to the USAAF during the war, had it been built beyond two

prototypes. To read about this fighter, visit the "Planes and Pilots of WWII"

website at the address in my sigfile. Click on "Whatever happened to the P-



38K" on the main index page. The reluctance of the War Production Board to

work

with Lockheed will make you heartsick. And could anyone hope to explain why a

second source / manufacturer for the Lightning was not in place until 1945?

Had not millions of dollars and countless man-hours been wasted on useless

underachieving junkers like the Fisher XP-75, Lockheed could have built the

superlative P-38K.

You are correct, GM had / has too much clout with the Fed's procurement

people.

Just think how many "real" fighters could have been made with these wasted

resources. GM should have limited itself to proven Naval aircraft, instead of

wasting taxpayers time and money on the Edsel of WWII fighters.

My best regards,

C.C. Jordan

Now online - Hawker's "storm" fighters at:




Where veterans can publish their memories

on their own webpage.Veterans are encouraged

to submit articles, stories and essays by

e-mail. Write me for details, or click on

the "Submission guidelines" link on the index

page of the website. A member of the WWII

Web-ring.



Subject: Re: 15 planes of ww2Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:28:25 GMT

On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:45:21 GMT, R SVEINSON <[email protected]> wrote:

>Louis Capdeboscq wrote:

>

>

>> Besides, my point is that the Americans would eventually have developed a

long-range fighter (and the P-38 could have gained air superiority over

Germany if the United States had had to produce it instead of the P-51P-47).

>

In his book "The First and the Last" Adolf Galland, who fought>against them said that the P-38 was no better than the ME-110

>so called fighter. If P-38s with better performance had been built they may

have had a better chance.

>

>

We have had some exhausting debates on the merits of the P-38; both

here and over at rec.military.aviation. Much of the effort in these debates

has been to overcome the post war myth that the P-51 was best fighter to



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emerge from WWII. Let's establish a few undisputed facts. Undisputed by those

who have done the research. Frequently disputed by those who have not. I'll

provide ten reasons why Galland's comments should be dismissed as mere piss

and wind.

1) Adolf Galland has never been accused of being the standard of objective

writing, or public speaking. A fine pilot and tactician, Galland frequent

wrote

and spoke about things, of which, he had minimal firsthand knowledge and

understanding. About 15 years ago he got into a discussion with several

former P-38 pilots about his comments in the First and the Last. Pressed, he

admitted that his comments were not so much his own, but those of some of his

pilots. He also admitted that a well flown P-38 was a very dangerous foe. One

of the P-38 pilots involved in this discussion is still alive today and a

personal friend.

2) Any P-38 pilot was eager to encounter an Me 110. They were very easy

kills for the Lightning.

3) From the P-38J-25-LO on, the Lightning was likely the finest fighter

package flying in 1944. It offered versatility unmatched by any other fighterin any theater, flown by any nation. There was virtually no mission beyond

its means.

4) In terms of range, a properly flown P-38J or L (this means using the

correct power and propeller settings) out-ranged the P-51D by as much as 200

miles.

5) The Japanese considered the P-38 to be a far greater adversary than the P-

47 of the P-51.

6) The TRUE maximum speed of a P-38L was not the much published 414 mph.

This reflects Military Power, not War Emergency Power. In WEP, a clean P-38L

could exceed 440 mph. The P-38J with its lower rated engines could pull

speeds in the low to mid 420's.

7) At corner speed, any P-38 model could EASILY out-turn any fighter in the

Luftwaffe inventory.

8) The P-38L could out-climb the P-51D and Fw-190D by better than 30%.

9) Most Luftwaffe pilots felt that it was suicide to make a head-on attack

against a P-38. The P-38's four .50 caliber MGs and one 20mm cannon

concentrated in a 30 inch circle was devestating.

10) The P-38 was the only fighter in the ETO that could be flown into an

accelerated stall at 1,000 ft. without fear of torque-rolling into an

unrecoverable attitude. Nothing in the ETO could stay with a P-38 down in the

tree tops. Absolutely nothing.

I should give 10 reasons why the P-38 a problematic fighter, to balance the

scales a bit.

1) Early models had only one generator. Suffer a failure of the associated

engine and you were in deep trouble, especially at high altitudes where the

battery had been cold-soaked and produced inadequate power. Without power, it

became impossible to control the Curtiss Electric propellers, which would go

into feather.



2) Models prior to the P-38L-5-LO had terrible heaters and defrosters.

3) Models prior to the P-38J-25-LO lacked dive flaps and were dangerous

to dive at speeds beyond Mach .68. This allowed German pilots to escape

in a steep dive and P-38 pilots were reluctant to follow.

4) At high altitudes, P-38s prior to the P-38L-1-LO tended to suffer enginefailures. This was related to a poorly designed intake manifold, intercooler

over-efficiency and poorly formulated avgas.

5) The lack of automatic engine controls in early models.

6) Poor roll response in early P-38's. Roll rate in later models with

hydraulically boosted ailerons was outstanding.

7) The P-38 required nearly twice the man-hours to maintain the fighter. It

also consumed 80% more fuel than a P-51D for a given distance.

8) Access to engines and systems was poor due to the tight fitting

cowling and crowded booms.

9) Unreliable turbocharger regulators in early models.

10) Poor rear vision, especially below .

The P-38 was not without serious problems. However, as a combat

plane it was among the very best. Galland was wrong, and he knew it.

Perhaps there was something about a big twin out-flying his 109 that

caused him to refuse to acknowledge what he KNEW to be true. Of

course, that is just speculation. Nonetheless, the fact that Galland could

not stand up to the challenge of the P-38 pilots indicates that he was being

less than honest in his memoirs. Another fact, that he himself barely escaped

with his scalp from a lone P-38L, should settle any arguments.

That P-38, by the way, had to break off due to fuel limits being exceeded.

The U.S. pilot was from the 364th FG. Galland was flying a Fw-190D.Galland avoided discussing this event unless pressed hard.

My regards,

C.C. Jordan


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