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Ep. 113 – Theo Epstein 1

The Axe Files - Ep. 113: Theo Epstein Released January 16, 2017 [00:00:06] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now from the University of Chicago, Institute of Politics and CNN, "The Axe Files," with your host David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILES" HOST: I've always said if you're going to have a hall of fame career, get out of the way, really. Theo Epstein has done that. As a 30-year-old general manager, he helped the lead the Boston Red Sox to its first World Series title in 86 years. And then came over the Chicago Cubs and helped break 108 year drought last November and making, himself, the toast of the town. We thought this was the appropriate day to post this conversation as Theo and the Cubs are visiting with President Obama today in his final days in office. Theo Epstein you are a classic story of a guy who grew up on the right side of the tracks and made good. Tell me about your -- I mean, I'm in completely engrossed in the fact of your grandfather and his brother writing my favorite -- one my favorite movies of all time. THEO EPSTEIN, PRESIDENT OF BASEBALL OPERATIONS, CHICAGO CUBS: Yes, my grandfather Philip and his identical twin, Juli, were a screenwriting duo. They actually -- They went to Penn State together and were of boxing champions together. Back when college boxing was in there. AXELROD: Your twin as well. EPSTEIN: I'm a twin as well and my mom has a twin, so, three straight generations. And they moved out to L.A., and became a writing team. Ended up working for a long for Warner Brothers, and had a real contentious relationship with Jack Warner, actually, and were called before the House Committee on American activities -- AXELROD: Yes, I was going to ask you about that. I mean, you know the blacklist was vicious. EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: So, they were -- EPSTEIN: They were embroiled in that. And that at one point, they were asked if they were members of any communist organization, they said "Yes, Warner Brothers." AXELROD: So they were, but they weren't blacklisted? EPSTEIN: No, but they stood up for their friends who were and work sort of right on the line. But they -- yes, they wrote many movies together including "Casablanca". And my grandfather died in 1952. So, I never knew him. But Juli became sort of surrogate father for my dad and a surrogate grandfather to me. And every time I would ask him about "Casablanca" and what made it so great. He would just say, "Ah, that one, same old crap." So, he is really modest about it. But we're very proud of it. And he won the Academy award for


it. And so that's it to my, you know, my dad's mantle on the roads (ph) -- AXELROD: And along with the -- along with the World Series trophy? EPSTEIN: Along with -- Yes, the 2004 World Series ring that I gave my dad, yes. AXELROD: That's cool. That's great. So, your dad's writer as well? EPSTEIN: Yes, my dad is a long time novelist. And the -- created the Creative Writing Program at Boston University and has published many books and prior to King of the Jews, the best known as -- of the New York Times, best seller list, a Holocaust novel. Writes a lot of historical fiction, mixes any, a lot of Yiddish, to make sure it's just about unreadable of for most of in the population. But, he is a great author and teacher. AXELROD: So the question -- and your mom runs a business as well. She runs a clothing store? EPSTEIN: Yes, my mom is, kind of, had the opposite upbringing of my dad. So, my dad grew up in Hollywood because his parents -- because his dad worked in the movies. My mom grew up in Brooklyn. And spent a lot of time and a lot of time, in a lot of foster homes with her twin sister, and had to start working during high school. And was very much self-made woman, and she ended up opening a women's clothing store. AXELROD: How did they meet? EPSTEIN: They met when my dad was a teaching in English class at Queens College at night, sort of a night education class. And my mom's twin sister was taking the class. And she was married. But she thought the teacher was handsome. So, she told my mom to come out of the class. So, she came and then they, you know, followed him home to the subway one time, and they ended up -- AXELROD: Because that's like a script. EPSTEIN: Yes, it is. And he is sure as we teased him about that a lot. But soon when my mom, you know, no college whatsoever. But started this clothing store, you know, 40 years ago with her twin sister and with her best friend in the studio apartment of the best friends, it was called the studio, and it's still going. AXELROD: In Brooklyn? EPSTEIN: In Brooklyn, yes. So she -- AXELROD: Makes her tying to put a little business? EPSTEIN: Yes. In Harvard, one time I asked him to come teach a class on women and small business. [00:05:02] And one year, she made it more than my dad. My dad taken home right, you know a


college professor salary. And when the economy was really booming, my mom made more than my dad in one year and we all love that, because he had the, you know, all the Yale education in the post graduate degree and everything. And my mom is a big success. AXELROD: So, I guess the obvious questions, what the hell happened to you? EPSTEIN: Yes. So, yeah, my -- that I don't know, my dad asked me that all the time. Yes, he, you know, he did push literature a lot and -- in school, in general, and scholarship. Then he made us read a ton when we're growing up. And I thank him for that. But my parents say I was always in love with baseball, you know, from the time I was two-years-old. They say I don't know if these stories are true and not what say. But attract a big crowd in Central Park, hitting home runs with a football -- and with football bat. And then when I was five, if they ever needed me to relax and calm down. They just sit me in front of the baseball game on T.V. And they say, when I was eight they asked me what I wanted to do. And I -- when I grew up, and I said well, I can't see myself being happy if I'm not working in the baseball in some way. And, you know, I was just a typical kid growing up in Boston, initially in New York and in Boston, wanting to play shortstop with the Red Sox. And that pretty clearly didn't work out. So, I had to fan another avenue. AXELROD: Now, you -- What -- We spoke in the spring down in Arizona. And you told me that one of the highlights of your youth was when the program came out for the computer game, the G.M. Game, G.M. and -- so, you could do trades on that. EPSTEIN: Yes, yes, so I was -- I grew up playing this game called MicroLeague Baseball, which was, sort of the computer version of Strat-O-Matic Baseball. AXELROD: Yes, like my generation played Strat-O-Matic. EPSTEIN: Yes, and I played Strat-O-Matic a little bit, too. But when -- it was kind of a big deal, remember when the Apple IIc came out, everyone could have an Apple in their house. And MicroLeague Baseball was the most sophisticated baseball stimulation along the line with Strat-O-Matic, which actually does a great job of teaching you the percentages of baseball strategy. And, went about -- were not about when to run, and when not to run, it's pretty interesting. But to MicroLeague was a game I used to play a lot with my brother. And then, one year they came out with this add-on desk that allowed you to not only display the games but also trade players and construct your own team, just called the general manager/owner's desk and I fell in love with that right away. And it was fascinating to make deals and construct your own teams and looking back on this by a pretty good training. AXELROD: Do you -- You talked about percentages and obviously data has become a huge thing. Were you, kind of, empirical guy back then, who has dated something that interested you? Because you are -- EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- a writer. I know you wrote.


EPSTEIN: Yes. Yes, I love to read, love to write. I did pretty well at math. But, you know, it was no mass savant at all. I think I grew up appreciating the game from both perspectives. You know, I played the game through high school. It was pretty good, you know, for a little Jewish kid from my Brooklyn. So, not good by any other standard but -- AXELROD: Not another Hank Greenberg. EPSTEIN: No, no, and certainly not saying any Koufax. But I love playing the game was always thinking about the game, watched a ton of baseball in person. A found my booth a half-mile from Fenway Park, and watched a ton of baseball in T.V. So, I could appreciate it from the traditional standpoint the way a fan would or even the way scout would watching players and thinking about what they might do next, projecting their future performance so to speak. But then I also got exposed to Bill James writing. AXELROD: Yes. EPSTEIN: At a pretty young age. My dad bought me some of those abstracts in their Bill James baseball abstracts in the early 1980s. AXELROD: And the father of sabermetrics. EPSTEIN: Yes. Yes, he really was -- he really is. And, you know, it -- in some -- to some extent started with Branch Rickey. We have hired a statistician and he understood, you know, the importance of on-base percentage versus batting average. For example -- But Bill was an amazing writer and quite the iconic class and was publishing these truths about baseball, you know, from his basement essentially, while holding down a job at a factory. And there is a night watchman at a Frank 'n Beans factory or something and, you know -- AXELROD: It's amazing. EPSTEIN: It really is. And was quite the writer too, so, you know, you ended up reading the whole thing cover to cover. And his principal -- I know Sandy Alderson who is currently the G.M. of the Mets and was the G.M. of the A's in late '80s through the '90s. He was a fan of Bill's writings and applied some of those principles and that helped those A's teams when ultimately he win a World Series. [00:10:10] And then Billy Beane, he picked up the mantle from Sandy. He was the assistant G.M. under Sandy and then Moneyball really, you know, brought it to a more popular light. But yes, so, I grew up in reading Bill's books and starting to look at the game from an objective standpoint as well. And understanding some of the basic truths with the numbers of the game and I think that's -- AXELROD: Like basic truths? We'll talk little bit about the basic truths that he uncovered. EPSTEIN: Just, you know, the best one to talk about is when I just mentioned, you know, that Branch Rickey understood just because it's easy like to grab onto just how much more important on-base percentages to scoring runs and batting average for example, until the whole


industry was based on batting average. You know, if you watch the game on T.V. they showed the hitters batting average. Everything was about becoming a 300 hitter, and it didn't matter how much you've walked and how much you got on base. But if you're trying to build a team to win, you know, winning is all about scoring as many runs as you can and preventing runs. You would essentially ignore batting average and focus just on how much a hitter got on base. And Bill understood that and I think Branch Rickey understood that and that's why his teams won so much. And Sandy understood that and then Billy and then the whole world with Moneyball. And of course, that's just the surface level inside and you can drill -- the great thing about baseball is you can drill as deep as you want. And there's so much more that we don't know about the game than we do. We probably understand, you know, three or four percent of the game and the rest is a great unknown that you can research to just try to find the slivers of insights that might help you. AXELROD: I want to talk a little bit more about that in a minute. But you've mention Branch Rickey, in a lot of different ways he seems like sort of the prototype of the modern baseball person in the way he approached the personnel, in the way he approached training, in the way he approached, as you say statistics. EPSTEIN: Yes, I think he'll forever be the best of baseball executive of all time. Because of his innovation, then really he modernize the game and by most importantly, integrated the game, you know, in a very courageous way by signing Jackie Robinson. But yes, he invented the modern farm system. He understood the importance of finding the quality through quantity. You know, by assigning, you know, a hundreds of players to play in your farm system and through evaluating the performance is the best ones would rise to the top. And he was the first one to really understand the importance of statistics in evaluating players and projecting their future performance. AXELROD: And you guys have this manual, a Cubs way and but he did that 60 years ago? EPSTEIN: Yes. He had his whole organization vertically integrated from top to bottom of their entire farm system. And then out of his impact on the Dodgers came out Campanis and he's the one who I think officially wrote the first manual, the Dodger Way of Playing Baseball. Campanis wrote that and that helped to lead the way to just up to the Dodger's dynasty in the '60s. And then I was working for the Orioles in the early '90s and saw Cal Ripken Senior's in the Oriole way of playing baseball. So, they made an impression on me and I realize that if you wanted to get the whole organization on the same page about how you wanted to play the game, how you want to teach the game was really important to codify it. So, that was one of the first things we did at the Red Sox and then hear the Cubs. That was I think literally the first thing we did after the press conference to sat down together to find how we wanted to play the game.


AXELROD: You -- let's get back to your -- your narrative you -- so you follow your father's footsteps and you went to Yale. David Leonhardt who is now a prominent columnist at the New York Times told me that when you were sports editor there you were the best writer there but you were focused on baseball. EPSTEIN: Yes. That doesn't speak well of the other writers at the Daily News at that time. AXELROD: Maybe it follows minus in this part. I don't know. EPSTEIN: That's a nice complement. Yes. So, I went to Yale and I was choosing between Yale and Williams, which is a Division III school where -- AXELROD: Where you can play a baseball? EPSTEIN: Yes. I would hope that I can continue to play baseball and soccer, but I ended up going to Yale and was not nearly good enough to play there. So, I was looking for other ways to stay involved in sports in the Daily News. I ended up in a great opportunity where I met some great people and threw myself into that. And it also helped me realize if I did not want to become a sports writer, I just got some exposure to professional sports writers. And to me it seemed a little bit too solitary of a pursuit to individual or pursuit for me to pursue, but have a tremendous respect for sportswriters in and for the media as a whole. [00:15:12] AXELROD: Well, you -- you're very -- you're good at it. I mean you're good at dealing with those guys. I talked to some of them when I was working on a piece about you and the Cubs for the New Yorker and one guy said that Theo can give you an answer that has three meanings and they'll all be true, which is a talent to if people think you're not misleading them. EPSTEIN: Right. AXELROD: I mean, as an old reporter in you're -- as an old reporter can appreciate that. So, did that experience help you deal with the reporters? EPSTEIN: Yes. I think it did. And then I also in breaking into baseball, I've got my first start for year so in public relations so got to see the game from that standpoint to the -- AXELROD: Tell the story about how that happened your job with the Orioles. EPSTEIN: Yes. So, I wrote letters to a number of teams and sort of, you know, the old-fashioned good old boy network, the Yale connection came through. I'm a little bit embarrassed to say but end up in a great break at Calvin Hill, the great Yale football player, the father of Grant Hill the basketball player and still a big force in sports. He's is currently working for the Cowboys. But Grant Hill at the time -- Calvin Hill the time was the vice president of administration for the Baltimore Orioles and he got my cover letter and resume in saw Yale on it. And I think I'd mentioned a couple of the research projects that I had done on the on the Negro leagues. And I caught his attention and then he ended up calling me. We were getting an early start on the weekends, one fry -- spring Friday at our dorm in Yale.


AXELROD: As folks were wanted to go in college. EPSTEIN: Yes, exactly. And the phone rang and it was Calvin Hill with the Orioles. So, I kind of snuck off into it at the one quiet room I could find talk to him and he invited me down. So, I was interviewed with him and with Charles Steinberg of the Orioles during my spring break, a freshman year and got an internship and then end up becoming, you know, a great start. AXELROD: We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Theo Epstein. So, from Baltimore now you're graduating from Yale and you get this opportunity go to San Diego. EPSTEIN: Yes. So, my last internship with the Orioles ended in August of 1994 with the baseball strike that ended up canceling the World Series, the last real labor stoppage in baseball. So, you know, the prospect of the job seemed to be waiting at that point and I started to apply to law schools and other things. I wasn't really all that interested and then I got a call out of the blue from Charles Steinberg and Leila Aquino who had just gotten an opportunity out in San Diego. And I've never been to San Diego, but they offer me the job. There was about -- AXELROD: This time in Padres. ESPTEIN: -- these were the Padres. There was 10 inches of snow at my dorm room window in New Haven so, I said yes so I don't see and accepted and then flew out there on the day after I graduated to start a new job, a new life in San Diego. AXELROD: And you moved up pretty quickly in that organization. EPSTEIN: Yes, I did P.R. for a year there, but -- AXELROD: So, you deal with the reporters' everyday? EPSTEIN: Yes. And then I didn't love it. But I was working in baseball, it's all that matter. But I befriended the general manager, Kevin Towers with the time was a new young general manager there and we hit it off. He was married and I was single in 21, right out of college so, he was kind of living vicariously through me a little bit. And I got to hang around in his office and listen to how they evaluated players, and in the different things that were go on in the baseball operations department. And he took a liking to me and started taking me out to teach me how to scout and seeing amateur players and then quickly brought me over to work in the best baseball operations department, which was my ultimate dream. AXELRDO: And you end up running that department at what the hell were you in? ESPTEIN: Well, I didn't run -- the general manager runs at the department, but he'd promoted me to something called director of baseball operations. Which is basically, you know, it's just a jack of all trades to do a lot of things in the baseball operations department. So, as in my mid-20s and the great thing about the Padres at that time is there was a small market team so we had to be resourceful and it was a really small shop.


So, there were another organization might had 20 folks in their baseball operations department in the home city. We had four or five. And so, I got to do a little bit about everything, I had to work in pro scouting, I got to go out for the draft, I got to help out in player development, I got to help out a major league transactions. And it's really where I formed my current view of the game. [00:20:00] My office was situated, literally between the scouting director and the statistical analyst that they had a time. They're one of the first teams to have stats guy on staff. And those two, the scouting director who saw the game really traditionally would go out and evaluate players subjectively with his eyes. He and the stats guy who would evaluate players objectively and then they'd want to see them play. We'd only want to see the track record. Those two hated each other but they both like me. Again, I think just because I was young and going out and -- AXELROD: Eager. ESPTEIN: -- Eager and yes. And you're here to please them and help them out. I got to -- here the best from both of them. And maybe some things I didn't agree with as well. And they would try to lobby me on why, you know, their way of seeing the game was the right way. And what I determined is that they, you know, they were both great baseball guys and really insightful about the game about the game. But that I thought I saw the clearest picture about players and about projecting players' future performance by looking through both lenses, by looking through the traditional scouting lens, and at the same time also looking through an analytical, more objective lens. And if you could find the transaction that made sense looking through both those lenses it was probably a pretty good move for your team. AXELROD: You know, the thing about the small operation is interesting to me because kids always asked me like how do you get to be, you know, the strategies for the present and so on? And what how do you started? I was telling ago find some small campaign where you can do everything. And where you, you know, you're not pigeonholed and where you if you're eager and you're willing to help. You can learn the whole deal. And the same is true obviously for you. EPSTEIN: Yes, I think had I worked initially at a big market team that that would have the bigger staff. And maybe didn't have to be as innovative to solve problems or as aggressive and resourceful. It would have been the same experience and what I was tell kids when they're first starting on baseball is, you know, whoever your boss is or your bosses are that they have 20 percent of their job that they just don't like, and so you can ask them or figure out what that 20 percent is. And figure out a way to do it for them. You'll both make them really happy and improve the quality of life and their work experience. And also gain, you know, invaluable experience for yourself and if you do a good job with that though start to give you more and more responsibility. And that's really what happened with me at the Padres.


AXELROD: We ended up back in Boston a few years later, Lucchino went back to Boston brought you back there? EPSTEIN: Yes. Larry got involved with the new ownership group of the Red Sox in late 2001. And by the end of spring training to March 2002 he had brought me back there is Assistant General. AXELROD: Any reluctance to leave San Diego it's kind of a sweet life out there? EPSTEIN: It was. It was. I got to be out there from age 21 to 28 and had some great experiences. I turned down assistant G.M. job elsewhere. Just to stay with the Padres at a lesser position because we had such a tight ethnic group. And it was such a nice life out there. But it felt like time and really the Red Sox that was my ultimate dream, right. I grew up half a mile from Fenway Park as huge fan of the team. They were sort of the ultimate Ivory Tower franchise where you really had to know somebody. It was the -- AXELROD: The old jockey. EPSTEIN: Yes. The old jockey regime and they were just a close shop and I didn't even when I was working in baseball. It was a pretty insular operation over there at the Red Sox. And I -- it was hard to ever envision myself working there. So when the opportunity came up to work for people that I really respected and to go over there as assistant G.M. It was that, it was an instant yes. And Kevin even supported, supported me and said, you know, you have, have to take this opportunity. AXELROD: So, a lot of people would be bewildered if I said there's a way in which Theo Epstein is just like Dick Cheney? But you got assigned the task of trying to find a general manager for the Red Sox shortly after you arrived there? And somehow you ended up in the jaw? How did that happen? EPSTEIN: Yes. You know, I'm innocent of any scheming I guarantee you. But no, I got the job in March of 2002. I was named the assistant general manager. But there was no full-time general manager. There was an Interim General Manager, Mike Port. Dan Duquette had been fired a few months earlier as the full-time general manager and what the owners decided was that we would go through the season with just an interim general manager. And with me is assistant G.M. that they name a permanent general manager after the season. So, we had a pretty good team and in 2002 but didn't make the playoffs. And they tasked me with leading the search for our next general manager. And it led me the two to individuals, J.P. Ricciardi who was a disciple of Billy Beane, who was the -- at the time, the general manager, the Blue Jays but a western native and someone who I thought would be really interested in the job. And out of loyalty to the Blue Jays, he declined the opportunity. [00:25:16] And then thinking big, we decided to go after Billy Beane without a tremendous amount of success. It was the Oakland A's -- AXELROD: would be immortalized in the pages of Moneyball and in the movie. And after this, you miss the opportunity had Brad Pitt played you.


EPSTEIN: They would had to find their last handsome actor for sure. Had that than me but, you know, it was a week, we talked to Billy. And he actually accepted the job in. And then did a lot of soul-searching. And 24 hours later, call me and told me I just couldn't take the job. And there were -- he had -- but a lot of thought into and there are a lot of, you know, very legitimate personal reasons why I couldn't take it. And live family and move 3,000 miles away. So now, I've completely bungled the search for a full-time general manager. And I have to go back with the, you know, my tail between my legs to my bosses and tell them that, you know, the first two nominees are turning the job down. And so I did and -- AXELROD: So you failed up? EPSTEIN: I failed up. And, you know, eventually caucused and called me in and said, you know, we thought about it and we just want you to do it. And it was pretty stunning, you know, I was a 28-years-old at the time and had only been an assistant general manager for eight months, I think at the time. And it was a shock and I didn't say yes right away because I feel I was just 28 but I was brought from an emotional maturity standpoint, I was probably younger than that. And I think -- AXELROD: It what seven years in San Diego? EPSTEIN: Yes, exactly. And maybe working baseball too. But yes -- I, you know, the more I thought about it, I had -- it was just the opportunity of a lifetime. And I did feel like I knew the organization well. I've been there for a season. I work really hard to get to know everybody. I felt like new but our strengths where as an organization, what our weaknesses were. And what we had to do to take the next step. And I felt like I had, you know, been an observer of the game. And thought enough about the game where I could do some good things that I knew enough about what I didn't know too. That I knew enough to surround myself with great people and really listen. And yes, I just felt like it was an opportunity that I had to try to cease. AXELROD: But could -- but kind of daunting in your hometown, premier job in baseball like a marquee franchise. It had to be -- when did it hit you that, what am I into here? EPSTEIN: Yes, it -- AXELROD: Because you'd become a public person, you're act -- you're pretty, you're actually pretty shy person? And now you're the face of the Red Sox? EPSTEIN: That was my biggest hesitation and those few years were I realized the day I was announced as general manager. So, I left my -- I live really close to family. I walk to work. And I was completely anonymous. You know, one knows with the assistant general manager is and for good reason. I really cherish that anonymity. I am probably more an introvert that I am an extrovert and just appreciated being nobody.


And I like that. I really very happy in my and my skin at the time as a completely anonymous worker being at the Red Sox, and then that morning of the press conference, I walked downtown and there were five T.V. cameras right on my front step. You know their cameras right my face and followed me. Nothing I could say, we get them they go away. And they followed me every step on the on the walk to Fenway Park. And my heart was pounding and I realized at that moment that in my life will change forever. And that I've been thrust into this public sphere that that in these waters that would be uncomfortable and unfamiliar. And then have to find a way to navigate to succeed. AXELROD: Well, good news is that, that the Red Sox fans are very gentle and forgiving. So you can make mistakes and they would just say, well, he's learning. And that's important. EPSTEIN: Yes I'm sure that they would've been finding with us long learning process. And only causes a couple seasons. AXELROD: No, I mean, you know, the thing about sports and politics is that both are played under the watchful eye of millions and all of those millions think they know better than you or what should be done? And they make their views known? EPSTEIN: Yes and the media serves a role as a liaison between, you know, those who are actually in the trenches making decisions and those who follow it with tremendous passion. And some in these narratives get created out sometimes by the intermediaries. And so, fans sometimes end up the following the narratives more than they're actually following the reality of the game. [00:30:02] And so getting a handle on those narratives and understanding them and knowing how to manage them and knowing how to protect yourself from them becomes really important. AXELROD: We're going to take another short break. We'll be back with Theo Epstein. While you are at -- you won the title in 2004. And I need to advance the story because I'm burying the lead obviously here but -- in terms of what happened in this last year. But I'm interested in a couple of things. One is you talked before about not wanting to be sports writer because it was a solitary pursuit. And you've talk several times about surrounding yourself with people and so on. One of the things that strikes me is -- and it's a little bit like political campaigns. I mean the thing about campaigns when they're good is that it is the act of a lot of smart, talented people coming together harmoniously, and working toward one goal, and supporting each other. And you seem to thrive on that. You have this cadre of people who -- still young but they were very young when you brought around you in Boston. And that seems to be some that you -- that get your engine going. EPSTEIN: Yes. I've always been that way since I was a kid. You know, I just really like being around other people who I like and trust and respect and working towards a common goal is something that to me is really rewarding. So, any individual pursuit whether it's say, you know, playing golf instead of playing baseball. Or writing instead of working with others on a project to


me just isn't as meaningful. And. I know it's great for some people but I've always really gotten energy from other people and I love being shoulder to shoulder with people I like and respect and -- AXELROD: And challenging each other. EPSTEIN: And challenging each other. Yes, absolutely. So, and I think that's one of the great things about team sports and why, you know, I'm encouraging my sons to play team sports is that you learn about how rewarding that can be and you don't always have to be the best player. But, you know, there's a role for you on the team and you support your teammates. And the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts if you have the right attitude and if you really commit to the group. So, that's the way we approached or the way I approached building a front office team as well. And I had no -- when I got the Red Sox job at 28, I had zero management experience, very little leadership experience, and certainly no, you know, business school training or principles at all about how to manage. So, I think sort of out of necessity I ended up just pulling people who I had worked with, who are like-minded, who are about the same age, who shared the passion for baseball, and who I already worked with those peers. And so, I respected them and trusted them and knew that they were good. I pulled them close. And so we had an inner circle of 68 guys and we pulled all nighters together and we went about reshaping the Red Sox together. And that next year in spring training, we all live together. And we rented this little McMansion in that Cape Coral Florida near Fort Myers. And we just ate, breathe and sleep baseball and had a ton of fun at the same time. And now, if you look around baseball, you know, there are three or four -- AXELROD: A bunch of them were running teams EPSTEIN: -- of those guys have become general managers. And they're all V.P.s and, you know, working for teams. AXELROD: But you also apply that same standard of your teams. I mean it seems like you spent a lot of time thinking about the cohesion of the group. EPSTEIN: Yes. And it's something I didn't always believe in. You know, when I first started working in baseball, I felt that talent always put triumph in the end. And that in -- and talent is, you know -- AXELROD: Yes. And they got -- EPSTEIN: It's actually important ingredient. Yes, it's a rate limiting step. You have to have the talent. But with every year that I've spent in baseball, now it's 25 years. I've gained an increased appreciation for the importance of the chemistry of the group. The importance of filling your clubhouse with as many good teammates as he possibly can. The importance of those connection, the relationships, the conversations the buy-in to a group principal that that the


players have to have for you to have success since it's not always the most talented team, but the best group with the most talent that went. AXELROD: So, when you evaluate players to draft or to trade or for trades to obtain, how much you do examine their character and their approach to other people? ESPTEIN: As much as we possibly can. And, you know, I think fans would be shocked if they could sit in a draft room and this is not just us, I think this is most teams, but when you're assessing an amateur player for the draft whether it's a high school, senior, or college junior. [00:35:00] And if you spend in a draft room an hour talking about the player, I would say 40 minutes of the conversation is about off the field issues, what makes them tick as a person. What's his background? What's his upbringing? What kind of teammate is he? AXELROD: And you asked the Scouts to do what a lot of teams that didn't before. Maybe they do now, but to actually write essays on these kids and you give them objective tests and you evaluate these kids. EPSTEIN: Yes. Our scouts have to get to know the player off the field really well. And they need to write a case for why we should bring this player into the organization. Why it's going to be an asset for us beyond just his talent? Why is he going to fit into a group? Why he's going to be a contributing member of a championship team? And so, they get to know the player over several years. And chronicle all their interactions with him and they list multiple examples of how the player faced adversity in his personal life and how he responded, how we face adversity on the field and his baseball life, and how he responded, how he treats his teammates, how he treats the clubhouse guys, how -- what his girlfriend says about him. What his ex-girlfriend say about -- AXELROD: Probably even more in pain. ESPTEIN: Yes. What his friends and enemies keep say about him, what guidance counselors says that you're saying. AXELROD: Yes. EPSTEIN: And you get a pretty good feel for the player. And we really do focus on how a -- the individual response to adversity. Because baseball is a game in which -- AXELROD: Yes. You fell all the time. EPSTEIN: Adversity is and failures inherit in the game. AXELROD: Right. EPSTEIN: So, if you don't respond well to adversity, you're probably not going to have any kind of a long career in baseball. And on top of that we're taking amateur players who are usually the best player on the field. And this big fish in these little ponds and then thrusting them into an


environment that's foreign to them where they're not going to have immediate success. They're going to be surrounded by other players who are more talented than them. And we're trying to project for this 17, 18-year-old kids how they're going to respond when they're part of hopefully a championship team 10-years later at age, you know, 27 and 28 when they're in their baseball prime. And so, this is a really interesting endeavor in our area scouts. I have to do a great job predicting, you know, how players personality will play in a group. We definitely factor that in. AXELROD: The other thing that you did in Boston was a pioneer this neuro testing which is still not the norm in baseball, but talk about that? EPSTEIN: Yes. So, you know, these days, you know, ten years plus past Moneyball, there's been -- and deep into the information age that there's so much data out there that's publicly available that the landscape is really flat now. You know, all 30 teams have statistical information, they have analytical staffs. We're all plumbing through the same numbers and you can get small advantages with finding new streams of data and maybe analyzing it in a little bit more sophisticated way in someone else. AXELROD: You've got a data analyst who here at the Cubs. EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: So, you obviously invest a lot in it. EPSTEIN: Yes, we do. We have a huge data team and most teams too, and you have to just to stay current. But 10 years ago, you get a huge competitive advantage by finding an insight. Let's say for example in the draft, finding some metric that you can use in assessing college players in their performance and projecting it going forward into professional ball and we did. But these days, it's so hard to find any competitive advantage based on exclusively on statistics that you have to get really -- AXELROD: Because everybody has got the same number. EPSTEIN: Everyone has got the same information. Everyone is hiring kids out of MIT, in Stanford and Ivy League schools to -- with advanced math degrees, to dice up the numbers and -- AXELROD: Kids who wanted to play baseball and couldn't. EPSTEIN: Yes, exactly. And so you we -- you have to look to other areas for competitive advantages. So, years ago, the Red Sox, we met these neuroscientists who were interested in what the brains of really great hitters look like, and if they could learn anything from them. And so, we developed a partnership with them where we give them access to all of our professional players from David Ortiz and Dustin Pedroia down through the lowest levels of the minor


leagues. And they would test these players on pretty simple baseball simulations on a computer, a little software. They look like computer games, video games essentially. And an exchange, we got some exclusivity for whatever insights they were able to drive from all these testing. And so, after many years, they were able to develop some test that properly and accurately assessed the different neural pathways that a great hitter might have. And so, you know, these tests would identify that David Ortiz and Dustin Pedroia has, and ranked them much higher than some of the lesser hitters. And certainly, higher than any layman who were totally out in a different level if they would test you or I. We would fail the test. [00:40:10] And so we just used the -- AXELROD: I'm sure of that. EPSTEIN: We would use these tests both for evaluative purposes. So, we take our laptops with us when we meet with high school players or their college players. We're thinking about drafting and give them the test so we could learn -- AXELROD: Check a videogame. EPSTEIN: Yes, like a videogame. We'd ask them to play. And we'd learn a little bit about how their brain worked and did they have the type of neural pathways that where the markers of maybe a future great hitter or they a just a, you know, more ordinary. And then we also used it to help develop some of the skills that the hitters need to thrive in major league baseball because the games are based on these algorithms that you can program them to make the game more and more difficult, the better that you do. So let's say simple one is reaction time. And it test all kinds of things, reaction time, dynamic hand, eye coordination, inhibitory control, which is the -- AXELROD: So, can you hold up when you recognize with a pitcher. EPSTEIN: Yes. When you see a pitcher that starts to be strike and then you recognize it's going to be ball. Can you check your swing and stop or can you recognize the spin on a ball and recognize its not fast balls or breaking ball. And then change your mind about swinging. It tests all of these things. And so, we use it in the minor leagues to train our hitters because it's -- you can't go out there and face live pitching day after day, except in a game. You might get four five bats in the game. But you can sit there on your laptop and take hours and hours of this sort of simulated baseball training. And what we found is you can actually improve the quality of the neural pathways in the hitter's brain a little bit. And push them to new heights with reaction time, with inhibitory control, with hand-eye coordination. And that's been -- so it's been a really useful evaluative and training tool. And, you know, I -- AXELROD: Well, some of the players who emerged as a result of this test. There are players who you actually advance --


EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- in the process because of how they performed on this test. EPSTEIN: Well, one good example of the Red Sox is Mookie Betts who our scouts did a great job identifying. He was a high school kid from Tennessee who was actually a better bowler than he was a baseball player in high school but extremely athletic, great kid. And he was just tough to evaluate because he didn't go to all the showcases. You didn't see him against great pitching. And you really had to project on the bat. Well, that was one of our first years is doing neural scouting and he scored just about 100 on all the test, he peeped in the test. It was at an elite level. And so that, along with the encouragement of our scouts allowed us to move him up the board for maybe a 12th or 10th round up to the fifth round. AXELROD: Yes. EPSTEIN: And that was -- AXELROD: And he's 23, 24-years-old now, and arguably, one of the top two or three players in the American League. Yes, he just finished second in the A.L. and V.P. voting this past year. And he's going to be a great player for years to come. Then here at the -- Kyle Schwarber great neural testing scores are just one of the factors that we use to move him up in the 2014 draft when we took him fourth over at all. AXELROD: And a lot of people thought that was -- you had drafted them too high. EPSTEIN: Yes. That was seen e a little bit as an overdraft, because he's not, you know, -- AXELROD: He's not poetry and motion -- EPSTEIN: Yes. He's not a super gifted defensive player as well. And I think the industry prior of them is a late first round pick and we took him forth overall. But we had complete conviction about his bat and about his character and I guess about his brain as well. AXELROD: Obviously you were -- you are now an iconic figure in Chicago history because you help break this string. You spent 10 years in Boston. You had two titles there. First of all, what was it like to be at these two -- they had an 86 year I think drought to be behind the building of organizations. That one is you said was well along, this one was a complete rehab and to be there at those moments. What is that like? EPSTEIN: Well, so many people contribute to building a healthy and thriving baseball operation. But as I look back in my time in Boston by, far the most meaningful part -- the part that resonates with me and stayed with me the most is the reaction to winning the World Series


in 2004. And ending 86 years of futility and fans who never thought they might see the Red Sox won the World Series. And then we'd grew up going to games with their parents and with their grandparents, and you -- you never -- AXELROD: And you are one of those parents. EPSTEIN: I was one of them. Yes. I was on, you know, when the ball went through Bill Buckner's legs in 1986 in game six of the World Series against the Mets. The Red Sox were one strike away and one out away for about 40 minutes. [00:45:01] I was on top of the couch in our den with my brother, because when the ball -- when the final out went into a Red Sox fielders glove. We wanted to jump off the couch and be in midair when the curse ended. So, we ended up standing up. We were on top of our couch for 40 minutes. So, when the ball went through Buckner's legs, we just crumbled down to the ground, a really pathetic site. But, yes, so you know, and that had been basically the experience of Red Sox fans for 86 years. And we couldn't realize until we want, until we saw fans reaction how personal it was to them, how being fans of the Red Sox and not winning and then ultimately having the team come through and when connected fans with their brothers and sisters, with their parents, with their grandparents who had also waited, you know, who had literally waited 86 years to see it. And with those family members who hadn't quite made it all the way there. And when we landed to Logan Airport from St. Louis to drive back to Fenway and drive, we'd all had made hundreds of thousands of times before this one was special because there were businessmen and businesswomen stopping us on the freeway, they're hugging each other. I saw construction workers crying on side of that road. And we drove past the cemetery and already, you know, less than 12 hours after we had won. You saw Red Sox penance and Red Sox hats draped on gravestones and people sharing this in the most intimate possible way with their family members. They really transformed the lives of a lot of our fans. And probably nowadays has gone by since that happened that some Red Sox fan hasn't come up to me and thanked me and shared his story and what it meant to him and his family. So, just incredibly moving and it was by far the most rewarding part. Something I never thought I'd be able to feel in baseball that you help make an impact on that -- AXELROD: Jed Hoyer, your general manager has been with you from the beginning of all of this with the Red Sox and you brought him here to the Cubs. Said that after you won that title, that Chicago became something to think about in the future because you had experience that. And it was such a cool thing that this was -- that if that was a great mountain. This was ever, its right here in Chicago. How much of that factor into your decision to come to Chicago and take over the Cubs, which is was a kind of apically moribund organization. EPSTEIN: Yes. It was probably the most important factor. I think once you experience what we experience in '04 and you realize that all of the hard work in the sacrifice and the all nighters and the comradery and everything that you put into a team, to help them maybe when you when


you see that that can have an impact not just on your life and not just on the standings, and not just, you know, with the pennant, but it can really impact people's lives so many people and so positively. You can't -- you never really get away from that. So, we went from talking about the Red Sox in 86 years, to talking about the Cubs and what at that time was just about a century of waiting. And -- so it's always in the back of our minds that, you know, if we ever do leave the Red Sox, it'll be hard to just go to any team. You know, and just be hard to go to a team that maybe didn't have that passion in the fan base or that had a lot of success recently in one world championships. And the Cubs stood out as the one place that we can may be re-create some of that wonderful allusive feeling of impacting people's lives that way. AXELROD: Did you -- and you came here -- but when you came here, what you found was a lot of mediocrity. I mean, I'm kind of antiquated not to -- I know you don't want to denigrate your predecessors because they did some good things and some of your players now -- EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- you inherited. But it wasn't a 21st-century operation. EPSTEIN: Yes. And you know, it's interesting how each organization evolves independently. You know, these 30 silos out there in the organization, they don't share a ton of information. So, there's some common knowledge. But the Cubs are kind of the Galapagos almost where they had really -- they were really insular. And they, you know, they were owned by the Tribune Company. And in some ways the -- just putting content on WGN what was the most important thing, and maybe more so than winning. And then there was the note, you know, not having one in almost a century. And there is this desire to almost make next year. The year every year or make it appear at least that next year could be the year. And so -- AXLEROD: By buying a few free agents. EPSTEIN: Yes. By going out and, you know, you think -- convincing yourselves or convincing your friends. You're one player away and throwing money at free-agent and not taking time to really build something up a robust farm system, a long-term plan. You know, by enlarge it was -- it was a great opportunity to start from the bottom. [00:50:14] AXELROD: It was kind of interior down men (ph). EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: We're sitting right by Wrigley Field which was basically being rebuilt -- EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- in place. And that's kind of what you had to do with this organization. There was no vertical integration of all the different layers of the -- EPSTEIN: Yes.


AXELROD: -- minor leagues and the majors. EPSTEIN: So, when we got here, Tom Ricketts, the owner Cubs who hired me gave me a really clear mandate to "do things the right way". You know, don't take any shortcuts. Build it the way you think a successful, healthy baseball operation needs to be built. And we didn't have much talent at the bigwig level. And we didn't have much talent in the minor league. AXELROD: Which a bad combination. EPSTEIN: Bad combination where the most expensive team in the division and the least talented team in the division, the oldest team in the division. So, it was clear we had to start a new. And so the first winter, the most important thing we can do is not go out and sign a free-agent. We weren't -- we were in a player away. We weren't even six players away. We had to focus on building a robust baseball operation. So, we started with our scouting department and hired some new scouts and then defined what was important to us. And the currency of the draft is going -- is information. So, we're going to go about changing the way we gather information and process information using information. And then, equally as important, and if not more important, player development, the minor leagues. You can't in modern baseball succeed just by, you know, hiring manager at each level, a coach at each level and throw on the players out there and let the most talented players rise to the top. You have to treat the minor leagues, like almost like a university. Like you're getting these 16-year-old kids from the Dominican, 17, 18-year-old kids from high school, 20, 21-year-old kids from college. And used to help turn them into men, and help turn them into professionals, and help groom them so they can step into Wrigley Field in Chicago in the middle of the pennant race and play championship caliber baseball. AXELROD: Which we just saw. EPSTEIN: Yes. And so, we all got together as the first thing we did in player development. All of our scouts, all of our minor league coaches and managers and coordinators and major league staff, we all gathered at a hotel in Mesa Arizona. And for four days we talked about how we wanted to play the game. What we wanted to stand for as an organization. So, the Dodgers had their way in the '50s and '60s and the Orioles had their way in the '70s. What would the Cubs way of playing baseball be? What would it mean to be a Cub? So, we spent a down hitting. And we didn't all agree. But we got to some common ground. And we really borrowed quite a few things from the Red Sox and some the bigger principles. I wasn't going to stray from like controlling the strike zone was going to be a fundamental core of our hitting program. But, you know, there was tremendous collective baseball wisdom in the room. And we didn't know where we're going to end up. And we talk through it together. And we ended up with a hitting philosophy and hitting program. Day two was pitching, day three was defense and base


running, and day four was about makeup and character, what type of individuals we wanted to attract to our organizations players. And -- so we ended up with the Cubs way and we wrote it all down. It became our manual and our Bible into living, breathing document that changes each year. But it became this common vision we could all agree upon what we wanted to become. How we wanted to teach them, what we'd look like when we had got in there. And so, that the hard work of turning around our franchise really restarted at that level where, you know, we got most talented and we had the best morale at the low minor leagues. You know, and of course at this time we also -- instead of going out and signing Prince Fielder or Albert Pujols who are free agents, that winter we had a vacancy at first base. We traded for Anthony Rizzo. And that next year, we drafted Kris Bryant. And then after that Kyle Schwarber. And we made some other trades to bring in young talents. And we are single-minded about bringing in young talent. AXELROD: And about telling the fans what you were doing. EPSTEIN: Yes. We were -- so we were transparent about it. I feel like it maybe wouldn't worked in a big market to rebuild without just being completely open and honest and transparent about our plans. AXELROD: We kind of let everybody know that they were going to kind of suck for a while. EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: And -- EPSTEIN: Well, we said it. I didn't -- I wasn't quite that blind. I think I said, look -- AXELROD: But everybody knew what you meant. EPSTEIN: Yes. And every season is important. And if you have a chance to win, you have to take it. But planning for the long-term is more important. And so, where those two ideals collide our short-term interest and our long-term interest, we are going to defer every time to our long-term interest. AXELROD: And you got everybody interested in these kids you were drafting. I mean people were reading the box scores from the South Bend in Iowa more -- with more interest -- [00:55:08] EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- than they were reading the box scores from Chicago. EPSTEIN: I think baseball fans as a whole love to follow young players. You know, they love to maybe go to a minor league game or read about a player, when is he in minor league, and see him perform and then they almost feel connection to that player in the contracting through levels on minor league. And when he debuts and then maybe struggles but then goes on to become a


good player than an All-Star. And then a part of a world champion. They can say, "Well, I saw that player when he was in A-bar. I knew that player was going to be good when they drafted." I mean -- and our fans really embrace that in and dove into it and -- AXELROD: You know my son, Ethan, who is of an avid baseball fan, a Cubs fan. Everyday was e-mailing some obscure clip about some obscure player and I mean, it was totally into -- EPSTEIN: Yes. AXELROD: -- watching all of these players evolved. EPSTEIN: And there was a real dichotomy in the organization through those early years because we were having tremendous success in the draft and in the minor leagues. And some trades that we pulled off went really well. And we had this really great group of talented players with high character in the minor leagues who were thriving. And we'd set up in the box that Wrigley are watching our major league team play we would say, "Oh yes, Brian to set another homer, or Schwarber is doubling in the gap. And we started to envision what the score might look like in a couple years when they be playing on the field together at Wrigley. But meanwhile our big-league team, understandably, because we haven't put a lot of resources into that. AXELROD: And you were training a bunch of guys to get more assets. EPSTEIN: We created 40 percent of our starting rotation. Three years on a row. And we put our fans through so much, and our managers through so much, and our major league players through so much just this by depleting the team to acquire more young players. But the dichotomy was, you know, so with be in this great mood watching our minor league players play maybe going out to see the double A team player. And instructionally, and then we come back and then, you have bigger team would lose them. And we'd have to literally wipe the smiles off our faces. So it -- going down into the clubhouse because then, you know, we had to have the postmortem from another loss and, you know, there was some players that weren't happy and with the manager who was suffering through these long season. AXELROD: Right. EPSTEIN: So, if -- but it was exhilarating. I think all of us at the Cubs, especially the minor league players, the minor league coordinators, and coaches, and scouts. We all felt like we are in on a secret. So we were getting a lot of criticism deservedly so it goes we were in last place and there is last of skepticism and we weren't spending money and -- but we all felt like we are in on this great secret. Look how talented our young players are. Look how good we're going to be when Brian set third, and Byers and Russell are in the middle infield. And we saw that first inch. Schwarber not on the play or on the field. Almora is in center. Look how good we're going to be and these are


not only really talented players. But they're great guys and they care about each other and they're proud of being Cubs. You know, that Cub went from being sort of a -- an insult or some sarcastic mocking term from when something went go wrong on the field. In our minor leagues, when someone would say that's Cub, that became a great complement. Like, "Hey, you just made a great player or backed up a base or help that a teammate. And so we felt like we're in on this great secret. And we just couldn't wait until our fans got to see it play out in front of them here out in the field. AXELROD: And you added a really big component a couple of years going you went out got Joe Maddon to manage the team. You would had rejected him when you were in Boston. EPSTEIN: Yes, I don't know if it was -- I mean, we did give him the silver medal. I mean, he was a bench coach. AXELROD: This is isn't horseshoes, but if you are to get the job or you don't -- EPSTEIN: No. And yes, so, when I was hiring to replace Grady Little after the 03 Red Season in Boston. The two finalists for the job were Terry Francona and Joe Maddon. AXELROD: Yes. EPSTEIN: And we chose Terry. And Joe ends up couple of years -- AXELROD: Not a bad choice. EPSTEIN: Yes, so it worked out well for Terry, work out well for the Red Sox. And then I think that well for Joe, because he ended up getting the job with the Rays who were essentially an expansion team. And he could operate in a small market in Tampa with all young players with no expectations. And it was like a great Petri dish form. We could try out his unconventional style and he could be himself and he could -- he could do things that would've been highly criticized in Boston and get away with it in Tampa and really be himself and figure out that, "Hey, I can do this at the big league level." So I think It worked out great, just as Terry Francona had to go through his Philly years to get to Boston. I think Joe and what, you know, standing job he did in Tampa helped set them up for a greater success in Tampa. AXELROD: Yes, he came here as a confident -- EPSTEIN: He was. AXELROD: -- and accomplished manager. EPSTEIN: He knew who he was. He knew -- he had to only be himself in order to succeed and --


AXELROD: What makes him so unique as a manager? EPSTEIN: I think what makes Joe unique is, he has an incredible knack, he was about 62 now, I think. He is just this incredible knack for connecting with players, 40 years as junior. And instantly putting them at ease, communicating to them, not just by telling them but through his actions that all they have to do is be themselves, and have fun and prioritize winning, and they'll be accepted. [01:00:18] And that's really hard. You know, it sounds simple, right. It's kind of what we want our teachers to do in some way. But in baseball that's really noteworthy because there had been this sensibility in baseball were young players, when they came up were to be seen and not heard. And with that they almost go through sort of a hazing of sorts from the veterans. And it's a really cut their teeth for many years before they'd have the ability to look their personality out at all, and to be heard in the clubhouse. And Joe really deconstructed that sensibility and said like, "No, it doesn't matter how experienced you are, it doesn't matter how old you are, it doesn't matter what you've done in this game." All that matters is that you are genuine and that your yourself and that we have fun together, and then play hard together. AXELROD: Yes, you know what's -- what was really interesting to me was how much you took the pressure off of these kids. And, like -- I know for my own experience, I think presidential campaigns are little like camp baseball seasons and they have peaks and valleys. And you know you're going to hit the valleys. And there going to be some times when everybody, you know, when all of the millions of people who watch are going to offer their helpful advice about what you should be doing in keeping your head about you and not losing focus is a really hard thing to do. And I have a leader who can communicate that and keep you at ease and focus, seems extraordinarily valuable. EPSTEIN: Yes. He came along at just the right time. So, he was right at that moment when our young players were starting to come up to the big league level. And there was -- and they had to start competing and winning some games. And all the scrutiny that would've gone to them really went to Joe instead. Because he's a mat -- he is just masterful with the media. AXELROD: I've never seen anybody as beloved by the people who cover him as he is. EPSTEIN: Yes. As much as politicians have to talk to the press, a major league manager has to talk to that much more. AXELROD: Right. EPSTEIN: It's twice a day, a 162 times in, 183 days, plus spring training, plus the postseason. So, you have to come up with something new and something newsworthy and something usable for them before the game and after the game. And that's really hard and it can lead to a contentious relationship. But Joe was just born to do it. And he is just naturally entertaining and -- AXELROD: And genuine.


EPSTEIN: -- interesting, and genuine. And so, he entertains them and even communicates to us players to the press sometimes. Where if we play a bad game and, you know, there's some tough questions after the game. He will just say, we're -- no, we're fine, did you see these four great things that happened and I know this player, made the key error in the eight inning. But he did such a good job backing up a base in the second. That's what's going to win this game. He just needs to keep playing hard. He is completely on the right path. Just saying it to the media, but the player has picked up on that they feel so supported by him. AXELROD: Yes. You mentioned Tom Ricketts who was kind of a unsung hero in the story here because he gave you the time and space to do what you needed to do. You -- I'd be remiss given, who I am in the nature of this podcast, not to ask you of this question. You come from a pretty liberal vantage point, a progressive vantage point, you -- your not in politics but you were supportive of Barack Obama when he ran for office. You did an event for Hillary Clinton. The Ricketts family slightly to the right of that in the -- EPSTEIN: Well, most of them. AXELROD: -- yes, not Laura Ricketts but Tom Ricketts' brother Pete is the governor of Nebraska, quite conservative, Todd Ricketts about to join the Trump Administration. Does it -- does that ever become an obstacle at all or does that stuff get parked away and -- EPSTEIN: Baseball gives us a lot to talk about besides politics, which is which is great. But, you know, I've never been one who feels that you know, if you disagree with someone about politics. You can't connect with them in other ways or with be friends with them or work constructively with them. So, there are differences. And I think it's probably more interesting when the four Ricketts siblings, you know, get on their weekly conference calls to discuss the state of the team and family affairs because Laura is -- AXELROD: Progressive leader in Chicago. EPSTEIN: -- of -- yes. AXELROD: And around the country. EPSTEIN: A big leader of the progressive movement here in Chicago and nationally, and as you said, Pete is now the Governor of Nebraska. And Todd, brace a lot of money both against Trump early -- AXELROD: In forum. EPSTEIN: -- during the primarily then forum later on is about to join the administration. And Tom, usually focuses just on baseball. So I'm sure, you know, those calls are, you know, would draw high ratings. If you and ever put them on the air. But, you know, by and large, we stay away from that. [01:05:07] And Tom, I told Tom because the Ricketts did some, you know, from time to time


they do some fundraising for conservative candidates. And I -- when that happens and it becomes link with the Cubs in the public affair. I felt an obligation to maybe balance it. And so, I asked Tom. I said, look, I feel like I need to do an event. But this isn't in 12 and so I feel like I need to do, you know, an event for Obama. And he was fine with that. He said, "Yes, that's totally fair." He said, "Just don't try not to make it all about the Cubs but you go and do it." We just did an event for a Republican. And then, this year, we did an event for Hillary. So, you know, just keep an open mind and communicate. You don't have to agree about politics all the time to agree about baseball and about the Cubs. AXELROD: You left the Red Sox after 10 years. And you told me that you felt that 10 years is about as long as people are willing to listen. You just sign another contract with the Cubs that would take you for 10 years. What do you see the future for you now that you've scaled Mount Everest here? EPSTEIN: Well, I think we have a lot more work to do at the Cubs first of all. I mean, the last time the Cubs won a World Series in 1908. It was a back to back championship. They won in 1907 as well. So, that's a great short-term goal for us. And we have the opportunity to win a lot. And I think our fans deserved that because they've been through a lot, about in 108 years, and then, even the last five years we've asked so much of them patients and understanding, and we'd love to win a lot, you know, especially over this next five years. We have our best players under control through 2021, basically the whole nucleus. And we'd love to go out and become one of those teams like the Yankees or the Braves that's synonymous with October baseball and plays in and hopefully wins multiple World Series. But, you know, I haven't thought much beyond that. I love baseball. I think I'll always have a passion for it, and always want to be connected with it in some way and -- AXELROD: Could you owning a team some time? EPSTEIN: Sure, yeah. I think you can do things as an owner that you can't necessarily do as an employee, helping the team really get involve in the community and doing some great work using baseball as a vehicle to do some important part of the society. AXELROD: And you do some stuff in the community particularly inner city, baseball and -- EPSTEIN: Yes. My brother, my twin brother is a social worker. And so, I try to view the world through his eyes and he's always telling me about what's really going on in the trenches. And the reality is, you know, these days so much of the most important work in society is done by these non-profits, you know, most of which don't get real government funding. And so, it's really important to identify the most impactful non-profits in your community especially in a city like Chicago right now that has battling so many critical challenges. And then, support them and again, baseball is just bread and circus, right? And then, what we do, we just entertain the masses and of course at this certain moments, it becomes really meaningful to people and transcends that, but by and large just bread and circus. But there are rich fans whose are willing to spend money to get access to games and sitting better seats or sitting in general manager's box or get autographs or have these experiences going to dinner


with players or with general mangers. And if you can use that and raise some money and redirect it to non-profits, I think that's a great thing and really our responsibility in some ways. So yes, and so, my brother had this idea to start a foundation which we started 11 years ago now. I think we've raised $8 million for non-profits both in Boston and Chicago along the way. It's been a lot of fun. AXELROD: You -- we should end with, we never finished the discussion of -- you talked about what it was like in Boston when Boston won the World Series. I was out of town when a big rally took place here in Chicago but no one's ever seeing anything quite like it. What was your reaction when you saw that -- I mean, the crowd estimate was 5 million or something. There are only 3 million or less than 3 million who live in the city of Chicago. EPSTEIN: Yes. And 5 million people would make I guess the seventh largest gathering of human kind in the history of civilization. So, I don't know. AXELROD: Yes. So, you could go for the sixth next year, that's another thing to -- EPSTEIN: Yes. And I don't know how accurate the estimate was. But I'll tell you, the rally was the -- the parade was incredible, and that we kept getting, you know, we started in Lake Wrigleyville and Lake View and went down Lake Shore drive, and then onto Michigan Ave. and made our way downtown. And we kept getting to a point where you can see nothing but people, and nothing but blue, and nothing but exaltation, and people hugging each other, and cheering the players. [01:10:07] There's a sea of people. And we felt like that was the pinnacle. That was where the parade -- the end of the parade route was. And we must be at the end. And this is the moment. And there must be a million of people we can see right here. But we just kept turning corners and then on Michigan Ave, and then, you know, back on to Ontario and to Chicago that there were probably 20 moments like that which was endless and -- AXELROD It's a beautiful thing when a community which does have problems and does have divisions. It's like a civic communion in which everybody takes part. EPSTEIN: Yes. That was the most wonderful part or the two most wonderful parts, how it connected families and everyone seems to watch the last out and celebrate it with their families -- AXELROD: Yes. EPSTEIN: And connect around something so wonderfully. And then, it also connected the city where, you know, it is divided in a lot of really important ways. And we are fighting critical life and death challenges as a city. But for really a whole month and even since then, the city has been completely united behind this team in the wonderful accomplishment, and we've seen the best of Chicago since. I mean, people in great mood, and smiling, and working together, and waiting to the cold winter together for spring training to come. AXELROD: There's always counting the days until pitchers and catchers report. Theo Epstein,


thanks for this and thanks for what you've done for this city. It really has been an extraordinary thing to watch. EPSTEIN: Thanks for those words. Thanks for having me on. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for listening to "The Axe Files", part of the CNN podcast network. For more episodes of "The Axe Files", visit CNN.com/podcast and subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite app. And for more programming from the University Of Chicago Institute of Politics visit politics.uchicago.edu.

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