650 [COUNCIL.]

still to he seen in numbers, Thtey are pass-ing up the shore, going further north intothe warmi water, and probably many ofthem are passing over to the Queenslandcoast. There theyv can he taken with-out hindrance; certaiily' they are notlikely to return to our waters. It isabsolute folly for us to allow thedugong to be taken by somebody elsewithout any profit to uts. The hawk's billturtiv. ofi course, are there for all time,though, they are taken inl thonsainds byshaIrks, and aIlso by alligaitors in the creeks.'Mlos tlIr theY are taken when Young by thesharks. Time proposed comjpanly would notonly take the hawk's bill turtle and thle dti-gong and the trcetaug, but talso take th esharks. Tme comipany'~s operattionrs would1lt~Vt aL teadeiteY to eradicate the sharks

along that coast, therebyv affor-ding some pro-tection to the hawk's bill turtle and the do-gong, The Government have been asked togrant. anl exclusive license for 14 years,which termi we consider too lengthy. How-ever, we are prepared to consider a period ofS o r ' years, in which thle company shouild beable to get their itoney back. As regards thetrepang, it is a sea slug which clings tothe rocks at the bottomi of the sea, and is ofno use whatever to Europeans, but is worthas much ais £300 per tonl in the 'Easternmarkets. I hare given hon. iueinbers all1 theinformation I. possess. and, I think, all theinformtation that is necessary .As regardsthe dugong, we Lan have only' one companyoperating, and that company will be closelywvatched. If inl thle Opinion of thle FisheriesDepartment the company indiscriiniately de-stroy the products, %ye shiall step, in uinder thlelicense and say, "'You c-annot do it anylonger.'' The Governmient -will be able tocancel the license lit an,% tunec. Tt is ofcourse possible that soon- other companymight take up a strip of 75 miles furthernorth: but it is very iinprobale. seeing thatan expenditure of at least £34.000 would heneeded. Not maniy comipanies would bofoundl to spend £30,000 in order to comlpetewith another company. If time Bill is passedwe shall have no trouble inl getting a eon-siderable umoun11lt of British caplitol investedhere, ad, in addition, wve shall have the ad-vantage fm-em year to year of the rentalunder the exclusive lien-nec. I trust theHouse will pass thle set-end reading of thleBill.

Quest ion putl and passed.Hill read a second time.

in Commnittee.11r. Stmmbbs in the Chair, the ( olonial See-

n-tar V inl Charge1- of the nill.

Cfios;e 1-agreel to).

Clauise 2-Ameydineut of Section 30:Hon. W, C. ANGVWN:; T fid that this

clause was inserted onl thme reeen-inmendstionof Mr-. 'Male, a forner memiber for Riimmher-

Iey, merely for the purpose of distingauishingbetween the food turtle and the shell turtle.

Cluse put and passed.Cause 3-aigreed to.Title-agreed to.Bill1 reported without njulencillemt, and tle

tijient adopted.

I/oust iid.jouratce fit 10.101pm

tegwlative Council.Il'cdncsdoij,7tSeeme.19.

PAGEsQues8tionsl: Wheat POol, Governmenlt intentions.. 050Leave of absene ------------ 651Motion:; State Finanes, economy .. 8. 51Bills : Adoption of Children Act Ameadment, tit. 0 50

Fisheries Act Amendment, U. . . 8658State Children Act Amendment, 2a., Corn. 6 56Courts of Session, Corn., report .. 859Rtecliprocal Enforcement of Judgments, Corn.,

report------------------60Local Courts Act Amendment, Corn., report - 80Evidence Act Amendment. 2R., Corn., report ..-. 80Official Trustee, 2a. 861Frernantle Mmnielpal Tramways and Eiectric

Lighting Act AtinendInsaet, 2E., Corn. report 6]Adjournment--------------------1

Thle ]'Iti-SIlDENT took thle ('hair at 4.30p~. aimd read prars.

QU.ESTIOX'N-wl-'AI POtOL, (0'.lR-NIIIMN'S INTENTION8.

Ion, i). 1)l7'PFELt askedl the Minlister farilieationi: I , is it the intention of thle CIev-

ertumnent to c-su hlis ni wli at ila r ketlug poolfor the cotintg ha rtest ? 2. 11 f$0, (10 the(ineerntient preposo to lake tiny imarteitil re-sptoiisibility inl conti1ection with nti-h pool1? :1,it tile ansy, cr to thte latter qcsc-tion is in theaffil nat i ye, w-ill nit- Govern imet t unmderttake toalbi in the sani-tiun of Patlimoc-tit hefri in-tnt iring sir nli respontsibhility?

Thn- HINiSTER FONR i-HPt-tATION re-phied 1, I es. 2, IThe uile t espunitiliityimport the (.uvc-n-itneit will he in the- e-vent Ohthe fitial realisattins tnt equahlitig thn- itnitialnilvat t iL' onil n-'live r iti %1i-It is iltt t -it to he3s. pe htliisite , authi is coos ideretl a ;ien Fe ma r-girt in view or quotations forward. .3, Tiresanction of Jliall tatinr is at p te"i it he in g,sought.

650

j7 SEPTEMBER, 1921,105

LEAVE OP AIBSENCE.

Onl inotiozt by Hon. 0. W. Miles, leave ofabsence for six consecutive sittings grantedto lion, J. J. Holfoes On the round ofurgent private business.

MOTION-STATE FINANCES,ECONOM IV.

T o redar-c Pnrlictnicn tary Allowaences.

lleu. I. STI2'WART (Southi-Esast) [4.351:I move--

That tile finances of the State, demandthle exL'vtise of the miost rigid economy inexpenditure as well us eflicient and enter-prisintg admnt istration, and in the Oinion10of this Concnil tile C overniniet shiould legis-late far semie reduction in the Parliament-ary allon ance to imuptess upon the citizensof time State the seriousness of the positionand thle necessity for their suppoutA anti co.operation.

Ili nmoing thmis motion I ~popse briefly toreview the seriousness of the financial positionof' thle State and to give reasons u-by economlyshould be practised in tile admiinistration ofthe departments andi why this Honse shouldgive full osdrto to the various businessdepartments of the State as suggested in ansindirect way by Mr. H1olmnes and Mr. Lynn.When speaking on the Address-ini-rephy, 'Mr.Lynn said that heC hopedI thme question of

litmance would forni anl iniportant section ofthe businiess of this Oinler during the pre-secnt session. It' that, T ptresuiiie lie inferredthant different memibers should bring forwardpropositiotns dealing with the different busi-

iess activities of thle Governmnut, anti not formeumbers; to review% aa uniimber of conceerns atonce , laSha beenk :tteiit 1 troiii1 timeP totimec when we have dlealt withm tile whole ofthle trading etmucerns in a few brief remiarks.if homi. inmnhers took til intdividnal avenulesit' Covernumeut business, they wmould he inm-es-

tigatodl more thoroughly and by this mneansthe interest of iemnbers generallx- wonld bearoused and we would lie able to see what is

the, real positioni in counnetioni with tlte vani-nns concr-n s. Fronit i ue to I inie [ havecgiven a considerable mumiount of attemition tothese mnatters4 and the unsatisfactory part ofit all is that one 's time is, to a gi-eat extent,wasted beCause, unles inenihers tomitentrateupton one section of the business vout-ens antitiebate it tltoruughl'y, we 40lu int get thle ill-furotation wec require until wve have nearlyreached rthe e-nd of thle sessioti, when we dlealwith pul-ely legislative matters. When ottotakes note (if thle rpinrterly "Statistical Ab-stract," from whichi it is gathtered that since

11-12 tnaftinn has imtereamscd fm-out £C350,000to £Z955,00)0. it shows thatt the people havebeen called iupon to hear a largely increasedimeasurt- of tmxation. Reference to time samletahle, whic-h iappears 012 piage 5 of time "Ab-stract.'' shOws flint of the revenue of theState, aittoumting in 192Q-2 to £16,789),000,44 per cont. of it conies fromi time railw-ays,

tratiways, and electric power station. Indealing with thle cost of electricity and of theadministration of the Electricity Departmentlast night, Mr. Ewing carried out a valuablepiece of work, notwithstanding what ourviews may be regarding the appointment ofa Royal Commnission as lie suggested, Mrz.Sandlerson also accomplished a valuable pieceof work in drawing tile attention of 'nembiersto thle fact that only inscribed stoek bearssinking fund charges, and[ that somewherenear ten million pounds is at present floatinganti not bearing sinking fund charges. Thatbeing so, and as thle railway requirementsfern] such a tremendous portion of thle ex-pendittire Of this State, at compar'ison Withprevioiis years is Of interest. . dto not wishto compare last year's railway revenue withthe reiienue of the pr-evious yenr, but ratherwith the revenue of 1.912-1.3 or that of 1413-14. During a debate earlier in the session,when railway iiiatters were being discussedby Mr. Ewing, Iinterjected that there wasa sturplus in 1913-14 mid the Leader of the-House said that lie thought the surplus was

in 9I213.I find on looking into the matterthat inl 1912-13 there was a surplus, afterpaying interest and] working expenses, of only£25,000, whereas in 191.3, thle year to whichI referred, it was i28,000.

Hion. J1. Duffel]: Did that include sinkingfundI

lieu. 1-i. STEWART: NO, it did not in-clude sinking fund because that is not acharge referred to by the Commissioner ofRailways ini his report. Sinking fundl onthe railways canl very well be left toposterity to bear. It has always beenconsidered that the railway revenue shouldmeet working expenses and mnaintenance aswell as interest charges. The interestcharges last year amounted to £716,000 asagainst £557,000 in 1913-14. Wheni I wassp~eaking upon railway matters recently Mr.Panton referred to the fact -that wheat wasbeing carried at a loss. T do not knowwhat the position was exactly at that stage,and I said I intended to look into the mnat-ter. T find that Mr. Panton, quite unjustifi-ably, took as a rate for the cost of thecarriage of wheat the average rate of allgoods. When Air_ Pauton quotes fromt areport, hie should be catreful of thle factshie places before us, if hie wants this I-ousetu accept his opinions. Onl thle occasion Irefer to his statements were acctedti ontheir fa-(- value by certain lion. inenibers.

Mlember: You sp)eak for yonrpself.Honj. X, 'f. Panton: At any rate yeni

have not exploded mny statenlents yet.lion. TL. STEWART: When a mcniber is

comparing acts, his statcments shuld becaeullv considered and not hei such a

com11plain of on this occasion. It is a some-%%hat difficnlt matter to deal with a coinpre-honlsiiO table covering a jperiod of sonicrears unless members have the table beforethem. Careful consideration of thle figuresgoing back to 1912-13 leads mie to theopinion that the railways are not being

651

652 IcouNCIml

mlacncged in rte wray they should be. If weton11iare thme buLsiness done, time niumiber ofelimloyees, the train mnileage and time rateAcill voguec during time year .1913-14. whiichiums the rear before time war and biefore tiledrictight, With, those of last year, we findinteresting facts. .For iinstance iii that yeartile i rain mnileage run totalled 5,56.5,000.whereas the mileage for ]ist -year was4,918,000lt, just about 500,000 or 6110,000 less.This shows that there has not been anytreiious alteration in husi ne-ss. The totalearnings iii 1013-14 aionited to £2,237,000and l~ast Year they were £Z2,720,000. or about£E500,000 mote. f do0 sot Propose to go intotle whole of thle details at this stage, baltI Want to use these figures as anl illustrationin the hope thact if I brinig the subject for-ward for fuller consideration, efforts will bemia~de to ascertain whcether we are not justi-fied in concluding that there is somethingradically wrong with the administration oftile rsilways.

lion. .1. Corcill: %VII\* not petition for aspecia session'

li-on. ff. STEWART: Pu~tting it ratherI ia 1i 11c th West Atustraliani of the 5thA cist, quo1ting~ froat tile report Of thce (,oni-ii,iumoier for the i tiitar ecide' I 30th June,

.1!121, shows thcat thle icreaqse iil work-icig co!sts over those of 1918-14 a£gS-14,ltth. I hare looked through thereliort of the Commutissionier of Eailwat' vsfor 1921) iii which Ice slates that whereasbefore the award of IDecenmber, 19113, hieatnticiptated that thme tnew rates would nieanalti increase of £250,4100t. the)- inl effect re-suilted in an1 iccerease of ;E219,000t. 'Pakingthe figures givent by thle 'Minister as coiningfrom the Conmmissioner, tite expenses duringthle 'uice quatrter' just ecied, after al lowingfor abnormnal conditionis aind for thle pay-11ecit Of :tti aecnniilnated :cciint which hadto foe mcet, showced cil exess of £69,000 overthle corresponlding- quarter of tlte previousyear. Multiplying that sun bhr four inOrdcr to get ai roulgh average for tle yearit ie'ell~is hiticit £2'77'20. Tlwo, cccaiic ex-

cu uN a e beec', - ivh ' or ile posit in ofthe ra iln - . onle was thle fallimng off itttradle. I have a. ht utingg from the reportof thle C"overimmecit statist ician whi-h showsthat our exports were greater in 1920 thaniiii thte previous Year, Un fortutn ately welucre imot Yet got thle figures for tile yeCarended thce 30thi .lun, 19)21. so thtat we do notknow thle latest figures relating to prodne-tioci and ti-ade. Thle other excuse given forI lice posithioni of tile rciilwa ' s is timecarbitratin court awards. I have heardthle Minlister for Railways state that one oftime greatest diticulties ici eanection with theraqilways wvas thazt therec were so iany differ-eit Classes of business covered by the rail-wrnys;, and that under the arbitration courtaward in certain instances, unwarraqnted ex-rcccse cccs tlcccs -accsec. -Roughly 'Yspeakingthere has beenl anl extca, cost inl working ofover £SCIO,00 vet so far as [ can see, thme extracost fromt the arbitration courint awards. was

probichlY iot miore than about £E270,000. Itseems to tie that there is a wide discrepancyhere. I ive already indicated the difficultyof getting economical working under arbitra-tion Court awards, This seemns to beto sonc extent the fauilt of thle ad-mninistratioin, :in1d if tile falUlt doesexist, it is uip to thfe Governmentito eoil VY it. .ii-incenit ion a siccal ni atterto' illucstraite WhaIit is htappeninig il n anly partsof the State. .A pane of glass is broken ata station, sayv at Brooniehill .A inan goesthere fromi Narrogin or A,'lbany' to iinspect. -Aglcazier is then sent up1 br train to take themneasuremnents and he returns anti sends upanothcer luaui to put in the pante of glass.There are eases onl record where a sniall jobwhich should hare been dlone locally undersomte ordliiry and simple business arrange-mnent has run into a cost of £10, £E15 or £20,takiccg icnto alccounlt thle loss of tince ill travel-liug. This is a typical example of what isgoing onl in the railo-ar"s. if this is dule tothe arbitration awards stipulating that ocph

ii shall do only his own work-that one manshall oreet a gate and another shall he sent topaint it-then I contend that without doingharmn to any-one engaged inl industry. a com-nion sense arrangement could lie made to re-iciedy this state of affairs. [f ineuchers perusethe tabulated statements presented to theH-ouse for- the years 1912 to 1917, and" on-wards, acid review tile p~osition of the trainmileage, the busiies and thle work, they willfill(d there is a leakage which requires soni,good administrator to deal with it. La con-nection with mines culd Other business it isalwvaYs tile iaic at the top whlo is responsible.I hare known instances where thle. workingcosts of cines have been doubled because ofthe lack of grip, administrative ability andmcanagerial control. Fron a perusal of thesetcihles in general I ccii forced to the conclu-sion that it is necessarY for those in controlof thle railways to get some new outlook andto liring matngerial ability to bear so thatthe railway' s mar he dealt wvith in a business-like way.

Member: W1hoic do y.ou suggest is ait faultiHlon. 1T. STEWVART: The hecad is always at

fal t. It does not matter hlow able a mianmight lie ill genceral capacity, if lie cannot puthis finger onl the weakneS, someionle else h1as totake his Joh. T do not believe in the proposi-tiocn of the Leader of the Honse that thereshould lie three Comnmissioners, nor do T agreewvith hmim in blam-ing this Honse for the pre-sent position because -ce objectedI to the ap-pointccient of three Comnmisioner's. FPancy threeConmmiissioners for a business with a total turn-over of only two millions, and one in which.time wrk is so scattered! Soonl after T wasretuirned to Parhinucent, T tried to get returnsbcearintg onl the losses sustained by the rail-ways which would havwe been vailuable to thoseresponsible for the administration of the rail-wnrys and to nmecmbers considering the posi-tiocn. 'Retnrns hare been moved for in an-other plac to show the relative recnlunerativa.ness of the metropolitan and country traffic,

652

653[7 SEPTEMBER, 1921.j

hut titer hare not beeis iiade available. Now1 finsd tisat tie Commnissionser in his latest re-po'rt iloes not give the details witht regard todistrict and isolated railways as lie used todo. Oss page 15 of the report the Commnis-siner states that this piractice has beens aban-doned as the returnss canl be given approxi-asasel v if wanted. Yet if wve ask for suchreturns, 5cc are told that the cost of preparingthenk is stot 1ssstitied. M1ost ming companiesin Australia, particularly the big osses aisd alltile msininug compaiesC iii thle Transraali segre-gate their costs iii order to findl out their in-cidence in relation to work, anid thus they areable to determine ]louw to effect econoamics.The question arises whether thle many and]volumntous returnss attached to thle Commils-sioner 'a annual report are of the best type todlemonstrate how the working of the railwaysmay 1) m eiore effectively economisedI. Thetramnways of Perth are equaflly euilpathle. Thlereason we shiouldl he concerned in particularabout the traisswayrs is that thmer contributeno0thing ill tile war of actual production to thecountry itself. Theoy are wthsat msight he termeda convessienee for the comsfort of the lpeople inthle metroipolitasn airea..TIn 19.13 F directed theattentois of thle Mtinister to tlse fact that thonunsber of persons emsploycd in the trainwaysllad increased in four years hr.% 23 per cent.,whsile thle net profits after payinig wrorking ex-penses and insterest hiad decreased by' 77 percent. T conumented onl that occasion tlsat ifthe iatsagensent coistinued ott similar lines,tise profit wousld d~isappear altogether, fIt 1919,instead of a. profit, the Perth traniranys shotweda deficit of £14,900. fn is1920 thsere wais a tpro-fit of £10,000, but last year there was a, de-ficit again of £V,334. Now it is proposed toextesid time tranway sy-stemt. i'nstead of ex-tending tile s'-~stenl txhick trill do0 nothing toiserease the ti-attic ois the railways but prob-ably wilt conmpete with thetm, the Gorerisnmentmlight acqluire some of the land alomsg thle rail-way to M.idland Jimition or alomig otlier liniesanti] pist inl sidings. Then they- would psrovidlecheap land for people to huild on and wouldget traffic for the railwatys. 'Ar. Ewisng indealinsg with thle electricity supply yesterdlay,referred to the agreensent with the Pert], CityCouncil. Last rentr the 0overnment lost£11,500 inl su]Plyiig r)ower to tile Per'th CitrCouncil aif the price stipulated, Onl tise figure'spuhlished for tlse last four rears, I' have coin-puted timat the loss to the Goveriient inthis Connseetion has beens aboust £40,000.Thsere is another point in the tables frons,which MAr. Ewing quoted yesterday. It isastonishinsg to find thsat the alternatingcurrent huilk supplies, apart frost thosefur'lisihe to tle tran-wax-s anld tle PerthsCity Council, lhav-e ben isirnislsed to othsercoustonsers at a loss. The total cost perunit produceri in 1918 was 1.12d., and tlsosellinsg price waws 1.5-d. There was a siillar1loss on this account during .1919; and in1.920 the total cost per unlt was 1 .89d., aniofinitessssal1 profit per usnit heing umade Oilthe sales to the transways and to thealternating current bulk customuers.

lion. R, J1. Lynn: if thle Goves-ninit hiadnot sold those bulk supplies, the general losswould have been greater.

Fron. H. STE WA RT: Yes, herause of theoverhsead charges. For the last year thetotal cost per unit has beens LAM., and theseiling price tar alterntating current balkwias .991d. The position ili connection. withelectricity snpply is something likhe that oftho Wyndhami Meat Works: if thie worksare not run? there is a, loss; and if they' arerun,' tihere is a less also. The miatter is onewQ have to eonsider very scrioisi;.

lHon. Sir Edward Wittessooiu: 'What do.you suggest doing?-

iron. 1t, STEWART: Mfy personal opinionis that the Government should be limited tathle carrying on of such enterprises, apartfromn special utilities, as cannot well andeffiviently he handled, firstly by privateenterJprise, and seconud].) by munici pal eniter-prise. in the present conditiois of WesternA ustralia, 'with so mnuch territory to tie-velop, and with otur opportunities anrapacity so limited, we should be ver 'y care-ful h]ow we spend mier in other direct-lions. That is wlsv I regard it as irsadvis-able to build a1 tr'atuwa extensionl Just now.

Hfon. J1. l),sffell : Anld yet '%-ott advocatei lust the Stare should find mnoney to goat-autee rise farier111 aga'Tinst loss oil isis whleat.

H Ion. 11. STEIVART: h IUavenver adVO-rated aniything of the ktind. If thle figureswereV exansined, it would be seen that tilerevenue from ouir lanIds SNI beenk Msuchgreater rhan u a isv exlpeinditure on thedeCvelopment of ag ricoltore and tile foster-ing of farming in p~articular. We shoutidcarefully consider thle variouis avcuues ofState es peisi itre, anad endeavouir to ascot-taut what is wrong and how to reissodY it.Idare say my ittirude of to-day will have

rlhe apiproval -of MNr. Lynni, though net ofnsanr other mseisbers. M-Nr. Lvyn ishas stressedthe dlesirability* of deatling with Sense ofIti mtters to whiti jer imhve referred. The

replort and balance sheet of the Stare Fist.pletient Works ihave heens to ime ratherlpleasi ug. _No doubt if an loin. mnenmhertabledl a inotion nu this subject. we shouldhe able to get full sod detailed isnforisatioinregardinag the Operations of the State 'in-plenisnt Works. Acco2rdinig to tlse balaisesliert, rlse acessusulated logs onl those worktsanseunts to 2,5.Tlse report states thatlast year's rssrnorer was 91.24,000. of which£:58,00 represented enigirseerissg, ansd £64000manufacture of LgriciilItisral sssaclsiserN andspare parts. Before it is asserted that theloss onl the works is to he blained on theagrieulturitl inedustry, we should he in a1position to state how msoeh, Of thle loss hasarisen froma the enginseering side and isowssssmel from tile agricuiltural impleiment side.However, let me point out to tisose lion.msembers who criticise adversely an;- ex-penditure outside thle econgested areas, tisathere we hax-e. at worst, an aseeuimulatedloss of about £.3,000 on the State Inmplemsent

64[C01'NCTJ]

"Works, while the trains have produced aless of 191000 in a single year.

Heon. R. J,. Lynn:- What became of the£120,000 of capital written off by% the StateImtplenment Wvorks?

Uin. H, STEWA\ IT' These interjeetionsare caiusitig lao to take a little longer titanI had intended over this inotion- If Mr.J~ymum will read tile report of tile '-t)ate i In-pleinent Wor-ks, hie will iearn that the Miin-ister cotntrolling theta, who prides himselfon being a business administrator, wentover the works immediately after takingcharge of them, viewed the assets, andarrived at the conclusion thatt tile valuewas not there, that tile assets did not repre-seat tile capital. Accordingly he wrotedown the capital, ais can be seen en refer-ence to the suspense account. I haveroughly indicated tlly belief that a, generalexamination and -eviow of the railwaytables shows that the positiotn of the Rail-way Department is such as to prove thatthere is something wrong with oar railwayadm inist ration. Steps should be taken toalter the position. One of the reasons giveafor the unsatisfactory position of railwvayfinances is the falling off in trade. Thelatest figures available front the Govern-mneat Statistician ini this connection arethose for 1919-20, and these are of specialvalue because the railway position has beengetting worse from year to year. I ecannotdeal with the year Just expired, anti there-fore I think it fair to adduce the figures ofthe preeeding two years. In 1918-19 ourimplorts were £8,023,000, and in 1919-20they were £1.2,368,000.

Hon. J. Duffell: Practically a 50 per cent.increase.

Hon. H. S;TEWVART: Yes. For 1918-19our exports were £1.0,022,000, and for 1.919-20 they were £l16,068.000-another largc in-crease. Atid yet during the year 1919-20the position of the railways was mnuchworse titan in the preceding year. Thefigures for the year ended on thle 30th Junelast are, as T hlave said, not yet available;hut I do uot think there is any ground fors upposing that the business of the Railway]Department has not fallen off considerablymore than would be justified by any de-crease in trade.

lien. F.. IT. Harris: The trouble is thatrailway freights are too high.

Hon. H. STEWART: That is one of thereasons. Tile railway atoitlnistrtition ais awhole has come to realise that it is im-practicable to impose higher rates, becausethe effect of such a proceeding is merely torestrict buusiness still further. The wholefinancial position is full of' difficulty.We are now subjected to three times thetaxation that was imposed in 1911-1.2.Ever since f have been a inihuer of thisHouise I have expressed, anti otemasionallyhlave stressed, nltat I believe to be the dutyof every man in private life, narnely, tomake his revenue and expendituire balance,

ando I have cotnsistently initained that themvle .111 lv is equn liv in -ittibenit onl the Geov-

et nnlteit. During the past few years thereIlt:Iv(, lietir variois; upliortutiitieq to effectevoni~iis of a few thousand ionds here

:ulthere, hut the (iovcrunents in powverItsvo seein in gly1 tak en il e view thait it Was"only :2"001 or ' only 0,i00'-sorte-

1 llng to piltryV to)H\t Tie tiuveranientshould take whtever steps theyv 43.1 to itistilI-oilfille011e into ti people. TPie financialposition is bal, anti calls for careful adminis-tration and the strictest conomy. Any-fhIiig I hat en" be done1 to rlite te 1,ost ofgovernment ouight to lie done. Out, step inthat direction, has beein the atalgarnation oftire Stat, and Federal Taxation Depart-nittts. It fi he Governmient will take stepsto reduice the numiber of memberst in thisChinabet-, or even the number of nenmbers-of Parliatment as a whole, they will have mysuipport- as theyv would have had it for sucha. course any tiit during the aist foucty(-ar. r feel it incumbent umpont myself, ataniy rateQ, to afford titis Chamber an oppor-tuity of expressing its opinion as to thedesirableness of giving a lead to the cent-utunity in economies, of bringingl home to thecitizens of the Staite the urgent. tired for thepractice of every economy that will not in-terfere with. efficiency, atnd thle imperativenecessity for secupring enterptising and effi-cient bitt etonottuieai admniistrattion. if weare of that opinion, let its back it by de-claring hiur readiness to submit to somne re-durtion in our Parliatmeatary allowances.

IIon. .... ORNELI, ( South) r[5.15]Roun1dedl up1 and SttbduedC(, Mr. Stewart's re-marks 4-c ti nder two caitigorics: lie hasindualged iii a mnass of verbiage and a welterof perplexing figurres; and when all is saidatnd dotne lite has left rte Housew just as en-lightenred as it was when he star-tedl. He re-ferr-ed to h)ad management in the railways,andl to the loss- onl the railways. Every hot.mnimaer is wveil aware of the loss onl the rail-,ways and moreover, of leases iii other de-plmtments. But, beinug aware Of thtose facts,imost ritemnhers tile; have dlealt wvith themhave, tqdeavouired to pit forward somethingconstricetive, a-in] ha v e poiniited ouit that itwas essential that help;ful suiggestions shouildbe made for the ;issistatice of these now incomtroi. Indirectly, Vt. Stewart has chargedeither thme Commtissioner of Railways or tieMli. te. xv W it i iD eI)tet let. Hfis reinarksP0ot1id lie suIMmled t11ill lin[o other way. In aptreviouis spl'(1 i ,ittcd oct tiiat the Coin-missioner of Railways had beetn appointedfor a deflutte period? witht the sminetion of hothHouses of Parliantent. A~t the time Of hisalopoititineat none lint eulogisitic references-wvere muade to Mitiaid to his enterprise,abIlily and energy. Noir We ire, told by thelion, tacuthe-who dlid not qttestion the Corn-missioner's qualifications; at tlte time of hisaptpointuient-titat the Conttisrqioner is, tosay the least of it, incompetent to fill hisposition.

654

[7 SEPTEMBER, 1921.) 5

Hou. H. Stewart: Tire lion. member'~s iii- tii n £ hi i memibrs' allowaiices. Let usterpretatioa of ray remarks is quite unjusti-fled. I was talking of the general admninistra-tive position of the railways. I cast no re-flection onl anybody. [ said that the headwas responsible in ai general way. I addedmy belief that the railway administratin, re-quired sonic ra' licitI alteration. aiid L re-atinded the Hfouse that the 'Minister lijuiseifhad already said this.

Hfon. J. CORNELL: [ will leave it atthat . After half ant hoar's fuilmination,and generalisation of the railwaiy position,t ho lion. ii' her has riot iiade one hlpfulIsuggestion, oth~er th a, that referrinag to thlerepairing of a ltle of glass. T will supportan lion,. rmenmber who comes forwarid withtan~gible cvidienve of incmipetenc~e iii arT'Ypublic servant or official, but I will alwaysraise iiy coloce against general charges notbacked ip by tangible evideiice Thle ob-ject the lion1. member desires to achieve b 'his miotion is to seat in the inids of, tilepeople a restoratioin of confidence. I haverepecatedly said that eve,, if lion. mnemiherspossessed the oratory of Deimosthencs andthe logic of Aristotle, it would riot have theslightest effect oil members of another pla icewho, after all, control thre public purse.Therefore it is only a wvaste of tie andenergy or, the part of those who attempt any-thing of the sort. What plainer hall-marhdoes thme lio,,. member requmire than the mai-dlate given hy the electors in March loat? Thleposition was fully placed before the peopleduiring the e leetimms, notwitloianinrg whichthe people restored the Premnier to time posi -tion lie had hmeld on the expiration of thelevious parliament. Not only that, but theparty with which -,r. Stewart is associatednow conitrol half the Governmnmt majorityarid hold im equal share ii, the goveronmentof the countr ' v. Tie people were content toreturn the Government. arid[ until such timeas the Ciovmiient have been given a fairtrial, we must iiot resist thme mainda te of theelectors. Thme last point of the lion. mciiher's speech which .1 will deal with mauy besaid to contain the kernel of the miotiomn.

Eton. A. 11. Panton: T. looked for thme ker-nel. Where is it?

Hon. J. CORNELIL: It is a veiny smallone. It will be found in this clase: '"ThleGovernment should legislate for sotte re-duction in thme Paqrliainentary allowamees toimpress upon the citizens of thme State theseriousness of the posi tioni a ad the meossitvfor their support andt co-operatom.

Hon. A. I[. Paintoii: That 's the kernel, isit?

Hon. J. CORNELL: I expected that thmehon. miembler who mloved the mnotiont wouillaunch iiis latta loris onl thmis e sseniutal poili .But be neglected to do that. He is contentwith the pious hope, the fervent wish that itshould not be done, inmasnuch as he has noteven suggested to the Leader of the House towhat extent we shounld make a beginning. Thelion, member lits not even suggested to theMinister that lie should start wiflh a. redme -

assumne for the sake of argument that lion.memibers with one voice said to the Preuider,''Repeal the last amendment of the i'arlin-nientary Allowances Act and cut off the ex-tra £100 per anunm which "-as giveni to men,-bem-s of both Houses.'' What would itimean? It would] mean in the aggregate asum of about £7,000 per annum. The ques-tion of whether our salaries ought to be re-duiced or increased] should be viewed froni thisaspect: not whethe r or not it is a livingxrage, but what is a reasonable amiount to payieibers of Parliament for thre work they

put in as miemubers. There are two bases ofreasonimig from which this question canl beapproached, namely, should( members lie paidaurnd, if they are to he paid, should theyhe paid a reasonable renmnneration3 Some ofliy electors have gone so far as to declarethat mnnners of Pa rliamncit should 1)0 paid.bjut that before being paid they should under-go a' intelligence test and he paid accordingto the results.

]Font. A. Lovek in: Sonic of uts would umotbie hnere.

Iron. .i. CORNELL: I agree with that.}Iowvever, there is that aspect to be considered.I think lioii. members will agree that, speak-ing from the monetary point of viewv, therea ic members in both Hiouses who for intelli-gence and know-ledge, stand head and shortl-tiers above their fellows. That has bee,,l sofromi the beginning arid will be so to the end.Rut they will *not subscribe to the doctrinethat member~es shmoutll be paid o il an in tell i-genc basis. So long as meiibers ni-c paid,they should be paid reasonable remunci-atiomi.

'lhce "-as a terrible uproar whem the Pre-in ior brought down, and Parliament agreedto, the Bill to increase the ii lowantes ofmembers of both Houses. Those who sup.ported it were assailed withi the charge thatthey were responsible for the civil servicestrike, and assailed also in a direction wrhich,iiidicated thiat when the next election, aiea rou nd they woulhi be inembers rio longer.

Tire PRESIDENT:- Order! Tt will beiie-esary for the House to order that thedebate on miotions should be continued, iflion. - ncem-s so desire.

Resolved: That mnotionis be comtinued.Hon. .1. CORNELL: Ani election has takeii

place. I venturec to say that if tire caindidratesa ic analysed it will be found that as mianywhIo lidl not believe in the increase of salarylost their seats as there are those who "-ontheir seats ,ad did believe ini it. I amn per-fect]lv satisfied that the pirhlic. felt that itwas a legitimate increase warranted b~y thec-irennmstoances. I believe -Mr. Stewart, inconmimoii with other memb ers, has every desireto see this country prosper arnd is hilly it.hard~ with the desirec to bring about a change.Without ill a ny wa3- desiring to be personalin the mattecr I thmink lie "-ill ha'-e to pt ila, better ease this tiiie than lie did oti theprevious occasion.

no rmoti' n by litori .1. W. Ific-key, dleltaadjourned

656 [COUNCIL.)

BI LLS (2)-Fl RST READINO.I, Adoption of CPhildlien, Acet Antendmin t.

2. Fisheries Act Amiiendtment.R eceived fromt the Assemibly an re iad a

first tii.

BILL-STArE CHILDREN ACTAMENDM ENT.

Second reading.Dehate resuiied fromt the pirevious day.

The -MINISTER POR ED)UC(ATION (lion.Ii. 1P. Colebatch--ast) [5.33]: 1 intemnd tosupplort the Second reading of this Bill, andgenerally spieakiiig approve of its provisions.

Iask -%r. Lovekin if lie would be goodenolngli to defer the consideration of the inca-sure in, Commnittee for- a day or two, becausethee- aire one or two points in to tv iich Iishould like to have an opportunity oflook ii,:. Speakiing as the represelltativeof the C ovenment in this Chaimber Ishould like to echo the sentiments wichl havefallen ftrot icertain imcemb ers in regard tothe work wohic ohla s been p~er form ed by theChildren's Court. I have no doubt that insti-tution has thorbnghly justified its existence.It is doing good work. [ also feel I shtould belackiing in my duty if I dlid not say% the Goy-,-eri~nent fully appreciate the fact that muchof the good work that is being done by thleCourt is due to thle broad -syimpathy andsound common sense, asi well as; thle practicalgenerosity of the hln member who is in.charge of the Bill. He has, I amt certain,by the exercise of these character-istics, alleviated the sufferiiigs of at greatmany unfortunate pople. There are one ortwo points !in the Bill to which I should liketo direct the attentioin of members, so thatthe)' miay think oVer them before reaching thecommiittee stage. One provision it is intendedto mnake is to give to all memboers of theChlIdren 's Court the right at any time toenter any institution to which childrlen arecolmniit ted. It miuist he horne in ininid thatnia nv of these institutions arc carried onl vol-ntarily by different religious orgrinisationsat their own expense. So far as I know theyhave nlever raised any particular objection toinspection, but whether they would think itwas altogether a fair thing that any one ofthe 60 membeis of the Children 's Court shouldhe at libei-tv to visit these instituitions is aquestion ahon t wohi ch I amt do ubtful.-

Hon. A. Los'ekini: 'There are 1-5 ieihers.Thle 'MINISTER FOR EDUCATION

There are 153 in Perth, 63 al Freinantle. andi40 in dififeren t harts of thn, coun try.

lion. .1. Nicholson: Unless thle institutionswereilmited pa1rely to the districts in whichthe Court was particularly' adjudicating.

The MI\TNISTEHR VOlt EDUCATION: I donot see hoos that could be done. Thme Child-ren '5 onurt in thle eoun rY might he commit-ting a child to an institution tin Perth. Atpreseiit thle speciail magistrate of the Court,

null tiny justices auth orised by the Minister,call visit these instituitioins. and the 'Miniisterhas suggested that two wvomen justices andtwo mecn should1( he giveln power tovisit a.nt. of the institutions at any timethey like. Whether it is wise to extend thatpow er to visit inustitultions to the whole of the60 mlemblers of the Children's Court in theState is a poinit to which I should like mnen-hers to) give somne conisideration. T have nopart it-ulaIn st rong feeling in the miatter, butI believe that certain institutions which areb~eing ut-adcted voluntarily do object to anlyindiscriiminate right being given, to memberso' Ilhe (Ph id ren's (otirt to visit them. They donot object to certa in people being nomn, atedlw the( Court aiid approved by thle 'Minister,andt it that way given the right to visit. Ita a4 provided in the 19OI19 Act that in a easwunder tile Basta rdY Act a special magistratemu lst p reside. A rather aiiomalous positionfias at-iscut because in the Police Court n twojustuies of the peace may' conduct these eases.When the Act was passed there was no an -onlll a v

1 ceait'e al inumb er of tle in en ibers; ofti'e ('l tiCns CPoint were iot justices of tilepe:'ee. A iiai er of ladies had been apt-pointed as ilneibers of the Chijldren 's Court.r do ilot know that there 'vas ally part icular,lnnaly in saving that these illicmuhes of tileChlIdren 's (o,, ri who were not justices of tilepecace should not have and exercise all thepo'vcixs that justices of the peace could exer-rise. 'Now, however, atl aiionaly has beenceca ted because these ineibers of the Child-ren 's Court linv c been made justices of tilepeace. It is rather strange to say that whattwo justices; of thle peace canl lo in the PoliceCourt two justices of the peace cannot do inthe ClIdien,'s Court. That is the reason whyit was dune, and that is the position this Billseeks now to alleviate. The Bill seeks to setupt the position that ant of the m~emlbers ofthe Children's Conuit who are justices of thlepeace-

]]on. Sir Edward Wittenoom: Did yousay any two justices of tile peace Canl do thisunder the Bill?

The MTfN~rTqER FOR EDUCATION: Theycan do so without the Bill at till, if they aresitting in thle Police Court.

lion. Sir Edward Wi Itenoon,: I knowt that.The MTNISTER FOR EDUCATION: Un-

der this Bill, if it is passed, any. two nmembersof the Children 's Court call denal with theseto ses. I would show the reason why they,were not givei. the power to deal with thenin the past, and thle aniomnalis position wascreated by their being made justices of thepeace, by saying that two justices outside thePolice Conurt may deal] with these ca'ses buttwro women in the Children's Cou rt miay' iotdo so.

]Ton. Sir Edward Wittenoomi: Why didnot the Gloverrnmcet bring in the Bill?

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: TheGovernment are not bound to bring it in. Thenecessity for the Bill "-as realised chiefly bythose w'ho have to actually carry out the wvork.There are matters contained in the Bill of

656

(7 SEPTEMBER, 1921.)

which the Government do not approve. TheBill also providles to relpeal the Bast-ardy laws. [. do0 not see any panti-cular harmn in it fromn that point atview, hi order, however, to make thateffective it is proposed in the Bill tostrike ant die word ' State'' before the ward

c'hildren'' in tn-a or three sections of theState Children Act. That is necessary in orderthat all children may be brought unlder it.This point aiiS0s Whichl is worth consideration.lUnder the Bastardy laws action can only) betaken against the Alleged father of a childwithin a certain period, namnely 12 months.Under the State Children Act such action maybe taken at any time. If this Bill is passedin its present form it will meant that actionc!an he taken against the alleged father of achild at any time.

lIon. A. Lorekin: And quite right too,The MINITSTER FOR EDUCATION: I do

not say whether that is right or wrong. TheheON]. inienuber says it is right; it mnay be so.I an, sure there is not one Of 13S here but de-sires that the father of an illegitiinatd childshall nlot escape his responsibilities for themaintenance of such child. It is one of thecardinal priniciples of our laws that no mnwho is accused of anything shall be debarreda satisfactory opportnnity to defend himself.Tr think it is chiefly for that reason thatnot only, in regard to this matter but in re-gard to0 a great ninny other mnatters theperiod has been set clown within which the

ansdmust be brought to trial.I-on. A. LIovelcin: If lie absconds for 12

months lie is free.

Thle \MNISTER FOR EDUCATION:There are offences under which in a ease likethat action canl be taken. At present inthe case of a State child, eveni with thisamiending Bill, action could be- taken at anytimle. It really Wonld be possible to evadethe provisions. The mother might be insuch circumstances that she is willing tomaintain the child for four or five years,and would not bother about taking anyproceedings against the father. During theinterval, however, liar ei-rcumistanees inightalter and she might desire to make thefather mnaintain the child. U~nder theBastardy laws she would be out of court,but if site is not able to maintain the childit canl be brought before the Chiildren'sCourt and declared a State child. The childwould thien be enitrusted to thle nmother bythe Court, and shte would be paid a certainamount for its maintenance. It would be-coice a. State child then, and a ease wonl(]be brought against the father.

lien. A. Lovelkin: The very, reason forthis clause.

The INISTER FOR -EDUCATION: -.have no strong feelings iii the niatter. Thereis soume cause for what the hon. memiberproposes to do, but it is only right that theHotuse should know exactly what is in-tended.

lion, -I. Nicholson: There is also the viewthat many a womian will not miove withinthe yecar,

The 3J1INISTER FOR EDUCATION: Thatis so, but let us know what we are doinig.[t is also plrolposed to amiend Section 7 ofthe State Children Act Amnendmient Avt.1919. Section 7 1 think is printed oii page10 of tile coinpilationi anid is as follows:-

Where the offence charged against achild does. not amount to an indictableoffence, or where the alleged' offen;e -on-sists of the breach or tion-observance ofsonmc by-law, rule, or regulation promutl-gated by virtue of a statute, no suninnonsshall be issued or served upon such childunless a notice has beeni first posted to orserved u1pon1 such chl i t its usnalI plnt-cof residence and seh child has failed toappear in response to such notice.

That is an entirely proper provision, theintention being that a child shall not besuninoned if it can be aivoided. It is de-sired to exhaust every mnethod before doingso. It is now proposed that the principleshall also apply to the prosecution ofparenits for offences uinder the EducationAct, that is in the ease of parents whoneglect to send their children to school.Speaking off hand and without munch OppOr-tunity of looking into the mnatter, I do notapprovo of it. The Education Departmlentnlever prosecute parents; for not seniding achild to school until ample notice has beengivem and everything has been done to tryto get them to send the child to school. Ido not see whly a parent, having neglectedto obey the notiices sent, should not be lire0-ceeded against by way of summon-ls. 1 do0not like the idea of breaking down ally ofthe powvers of the Education De Partmjenlt inthis respect when, after repeated nt'oticeS,the parents continue their nieglc:t. .1 alsodirect the attention of thme hon. ineniber incharge of the Bill to Clause 9 whichi pro-poses to ameond Section 46. if the principleis sound of increasing the ago of the childfrom 18 to 21 the principle shonld also befollowedI it! Section 47.

lifon. A. Lovekin: 1 have a note of that,and intend to do it.

The MTINfSTER FOR EDUCATION: Itwould be better if the. words ''factoriesand shops and warehouses'' were left out.It is a mistake to have these things O~er-lapping. The Factories -and Shops Act dealssufficientlyv with that miatter. It is neces-sary that inspectors of the State ChildrenDep)artment. should go into, say, places ofpublic amuosentent where children may beem~ployed in contravention of the Act, butI doubt the wisdom of sending then, itoshops and factories, places which are -con-trolled by inspecCts uinder the Factoriesand Shops Act.

H-on. A. Lovekin:. It is only intended toapoply to boys. on probation.

The MINISTER FOR EDUC:ATrON: Sofar ais the renmaining portion of the Bill is

[COUNCIL.]

concerned, T have no particular objection toit. I support the second, reading.

N~on. Sir EDWARD WJTE-NOOM (North)[5.501 : Unfortuniately, I was absent yestcr-lky %%hl 21r. Lo0vekin mo1ved tile SC(-Old read-ing of the Bill, and therefore did not havethe oppoitunity of lheariiig thre lion. member 'sar~i-gints. I have, however, ca refuilly readthe report in this morn1ilng a newspaper, andit sems, to ito that we aire introducing_' Billsof a legal iiature, :in'l amending Statutesalready piassedl. We want to 'iise the utmostcare in this respect. I have no idea whereMr. Lovekin had tile Bill drafted, noer rio 1know lisi grounds for hringiwz! it torwa rd.There is no doubt whatever about this fatiiiii.arity u ith the work because of his. aissociatlionirtli the (hilrei 's Couirt, hut 'ye shall haveto trust to our friend, Mr. Nicholson, to seethat the legal phraseology in the mneasure iscorrect. The Bill has not conic froni anotherplace and1, n]either has it had the approval ofan Alto, ney General, for we have ito AttorneyGenieral at the present time. rn these ci rcum-stances, we should use t1e greatest care tosee that the Bill is correctly dirani. F k nownothing about the methods adopted in con-ducting the work at the ChlIdren 's Court, andtherefore shall not say anything in that re-gard, but onl reading the reports tin the news.papers fromt tirite to time, I1 have felt thatundue leniency is shown towards unany efn,-inally Inclined children. I renmenmber the easeof a lad of 16 or 17 Years of age wh6b wasconvicted for tile thirdH time, and the onlypunishment lie received "'as that lie wvas sentto an industrial school. My belief is tHantyoung p~eop~le should get a far miore impfres-sivo puinishmiienit than that given to thorn atthe present time; a good caning or a goodhi rchinrg wonuld be muich lietier.

Hfon. A. Lovekin: We have no power underthe Act to do that.

lioin. Sir FDWARD NVITTEN'OOMf: Thea,here is the opporturnity. I an, quite Surie thata good deal of juvenile tie vi ng arnd othercriminal ac-ts onl the part of children wouldhe elieckeil if a good birchinug were aidmi ais-tered.

lioin. A. Lovekin: You canl correct them bybetcte r nicals thain do gginrg.

Non. Sir- EDW\ARD WITTENOOMr: WThileI dto not knowr what those means ire, Thope thle.% will be included in thle Bill. Iknow fi-ro experience how impressive a goodfloguing is. 2Alany people w-ill say that be-cause you give a boy a thrasghig you w-illrui that boy for life, but it is necessary tomnake examples of sonme. Evenx i, hi blicalhistory one had to dlie for everybody as anlexamnide. Here, if we do riot maike exaniples,these juveniles will have nothing to fear. rtis like permnitting- theiii to go under the FirstOffendlers Act. I coinrien Mir. Lovelcia forwhat lie hasa done tin eon nectioii with tlie chlidmoveiment of tile State, hut I trust hie w-illadd to the aoieaclments which are already onlthe 'Notice Paper by p~rovidinig effective

means to prevent runny of these 'youngsterscafrryinig onl in the way they ai-c doinig.

lioni. A. LOVEXIN (Metropolitan-in re-pily) I15.531 : 1 appreciate the remarks whichhave fallen from lion. members and the supl-port of the Lender of the H-ouse. In orderto get riri of the Bastardly Act, it is jieces-sary to repeal the word ''State'' in oiiO ofthle sca-tionis of the State Children Act, batwhere we reiiove that wordI we leave mecrely"child' and then that w-ill itic-ude a Stte

chlId. The object of thle a omiiis todeal with abscondinog rinle parents.. Wil stwe maly hie tr-inig to noake these cildrenState ihiIl ret, the mil has gone, an tlIheState is compelled to foot thle bill for themintranine of the child . Aiithter maiterthat thle 21 miiister- referred to wais that the,Bastardy Act providl that no I roceedirngs(-olI be taken aft 12 nionth%. That is oneof thre reasons why' the p)rovision in theState Children Act has been left asit is. There is no reasoh, whatever why amanl if lie runs a way should become exenmptfrom dloing what lie should dto, namely, payfor thle maintenance of is children. Iti"'asonly to-day that my attention was drawn bythe Clerk of the Court to a ease where amian has been away for four years,and the miothier of his child has beensupiported by the State. The man hasimow returned to Pertlh. Under the Bas-tardy Act nothing can be done to that man,but if wue allow the provision to remain as itis in the Bill before uts, the mail cant be dealtwith.

Hon. .1. 'Nicholson: 1s that particular childa State child?

Hon. A. LOVEIX: The child has neverbeen or, the State.

The Mtinister for Education: This willmake it at State child.

Nion. A. LOVEKIN: N o. Thle ease"-as brouiight uinder in inotice to-day.The Minister also referred to -Section7 of the aniendirtg Act of 1919, andlie drew a. distinction between the easeof chi l~ren and the ease of adults. Thatsec-tiorn provides that wheic at chlId has to bothi-ought befo-e the court instead of a sumi-tuins being served, a, notice may be posted. Tarii glad to be able to say that in everY case,w-here such a notice has been sent, thle chil-diet, have atteiided acconiparnied by their,ameitts. There has never been tire need to

issue a stuor ons. -Memberis of the court desireto apply that procedure to parents againstwhen nc-lion is to be taken under thre Edo,-cation Act. Of course it is often the childthat is the truant, though under the Esduca-tioii Act the parenrt is responsible. Scores ofpeople calie before the Childreni s Count fromtinme to time wanting food, people who aredependent solel , upon thle State. It is hairshthat summionses should be served and thatthese people should be compelled to pay tn-nieeessi- costs. Even if it be ii, thle case,of a wilful offender, why heap uip costs3There should not be any desire onl the partof the State, even though it is til an unfor-

[7 SEPTEMBE5R, 1921.]69

tunate financial position, to mnake a le-.shillings out of the serving of a summons.

Hoin. G. IV. MIiles: Do the parents takeheced of thle notices?

H-on. A. LOVSTCIN: We canl only go byexperience. In all eases where notices havebeen sqent hrN post, the parents aind thle chil-turea have attended the court without fail. Itis also myv belief that poor pteople againstwhom proceedings miay be taken iler theEducation Act will attend if they receivethese notices. The next point to which Idlesiro to draw attention is tile clause inwhich the Alinister snggests the strikingout of the words '"shops and( factories.''I do not know that these words arenecessary h ut they cannot do any harmiin the section, as it is only thle pro-tation officer-lie is the officer who looksafter bors who are on probation-who willmnake use of this part of the measure. It is,perhaps, right that thle prohetien offiecrshould ho ahle to go to the shops anld fac-tories in order to see thle boys who arc emi-ployed there. Tile officer does not desire tosee Nwther they are working the properhours, or whether the belting onl the maclh-inery is right, or to investigate such likemnatters, but hie wants to see what the boysare doing and hlow they are getting oil in theparticular shops and( fsctories where they areemployed. We have a very good manl in thepresent probation officer, Mlr. A. H4. Bulley.

Hfon. .1. A. Creig: How many probationofficers have you employed?

I-Tonl. A. LOVEKCIN: Only one. This offi-cor goes round thle billiaird saloons and vari-ouis other places at night, and hie is, doing ex-cellent wvork, so mnuch so tihat two reforma-tory institutions hare been closed: andI sinceFebruary last we have been able to reducethle number of boys onl probation from 93to 52. 'f rlmis result is duo to the good workthis officer is doing. I am sorry to say, how-ever, that although hie has been in the servicefor 14 years, hie is still a, temporary officerreceiving a salary of i5s. a day. Ii doingwork such as this officer carries out, it amustnecessarily cost hini something in order todischarge his duties properly, and I amn con-vinced that steps should be taken to have apermanent probatioa officer attached to thecourt. These are the only points that theMXinister referred to respecting which I wishto comment. I would say to Sir 1EtiwardWitteaoosu, who believes in the doctrine laidby Solomon of sparing the rod and spoilingthe child, that like Queen Anne, Solomon isdead and that the methods that mnight have.applied in those days are aot suitable to-day.

lion. Sir Edwardl Wittenooi: Do not mnakeally mnista~ke about that.

lion. A. LOVEKiN: Had tile lion. inem-her been here last night lie would have heardthe different mnethods whichi havre beenadopted by those administering the Chl-dren 's Court. I emi certain that better re-suilts have been obtained through thosemnethods titan all the flogging ini thle worldcould achieve.

lion. Sir Edward AWittenoom: \ hy are of-fences amiongst the youngsters so0 lnumerous?

Hon. A. IZOVEICTN: . amn glad to saythat the offences are diminishing. There aicmnore cases in the Children's Court this yearcompared with last year, but thle bulk, in factnearly all the i-eases are due to neglectedchildren. and not to criminal offences. Wehlardly get one criminal offence a wveek atthe present rime and T have no doubt thatcrime is really diminishing amiong the ehil-drn.

lion. Sir, Edwaird Wittenoomn: That is goodnews.

Question put anid passed.Bill read ai second tlime.

In Committee.Ron . J. Ewving iii thle Chair; Hlon, A.

Lovekin in charge of the Bill.Clause 1-agreed to.Clause 2-N\o execution or detention in

default of liayneult of fine.Progress reported.

BTI-COURTS OF SESSION.In. Coninittec.

Hon. J1. Ewing in the Chair; the 'Ministerfor Education in charge of thle Bill.

Clauses I to 5-agreed to.Clause 6--Cenrts of Sesson:HeIn. Sir EDWARD) WLTTEUTOOM: I

was ]]ot here yesterday and I would be gladif the -Ministe- would explain to me brieflywhat is thle real object of m aking the changeindicated in tis new clause.

The M,:12IiSTEIR FOR EDUCAT[ON': Thereal ob:ject, as I exp)lainied yesterday, is thatthe courts of session at the present time aregoverned by anl old ordinance dated 1Sd--5,which was passed for the purpose of providingfor courts of session at Albany and otherremote pl)aces. lia mafny respects tis oldordinance is altogether inadequate now. itdoes not peruilt of the constitution of propercourts of session in different parts of theSqtate where they arc required. This Billis to overcomte that difficulty.

Hon. Sir Edward Wittenoomn: I take ittront your explanation that if yeu were toestablish a court at Marble Bar, it would notbe necessary to go to floebourac to have acase tried. The ease would be dealt with atM\arble Bar.

The M-INISTER FOR EDU.CATION: Thecourt of session would be established for themagisterial district, with the resident inagis-trate as chairman. The courts of sessionwould be foir the whole district and not forone particular place such as Marble Bar. Ido net know what the magisterial districtsare in that part of the country and whetherit includes Port Hedland.

Hon., G'. W. MILES: There are magisterialdistricts at Marble Bar and Port Hedland.

659

600 [COUi' L.]

In the past we have had no court held inthose parts, and people had to go to Roe.bourne in order to have cases dealt with.This has resulted in the ends of justice beingdefeated because people could not afford tojourney 300 or 400 miles to prosecute people,and, therefore, action has not been taken insuch cases. Sir Edward Wittenoon, raisedthe point to ascertain whether a court couldbe held] at those centres, thus avoiding thenecessity' for litigants going to Roebourne.That point haes come before different Gov-(runteits du ring the past 10 years, and if theulifficultY can be overcome byv this mecasure,that is w~ha t we require.

The 'Miniister for Educaition: This wouldgive the Covernor-in.Couucil power to miakethe part iculanr divisions referred to, sessionsdi ivisious. Of course wvhethuer that would( bedlone or not woulId all depend upon practicalconsid eratioens.

Cla use put and passed.

Clauses 7 to 84-agreed to.

Clause 35-Ainendint of Section 9 of theCircuit Courts Act, 1597:

lo. .CORNELL: I doubt the wisdom ofemibodyi ng an ainendinen t to another Act iiithis Bill I f such amendmuents are to bemade, they shld be made by mnics of theintroduction of a Bill for that purpose.

Clause put and passed.

Clauses 36, 37-agreed to.Clause 88-Contempt of Court:Hon. Sir ED)WARD WITTENOO2E: Can

the Minister tell me whether it is the law ofthe countrJ now that Juries may bring inverdicts iby majorities, or wh ether verdictsmust be unanilnous?

The Minister for Educationi: In criminalcases the verdicts must be unanimous, and incivil cases they must be imunnious too, unlessthe parties concerned agree to accept amajority verdict.

Clause put and passed.

Schedules 1 and 2-agreed to.Title-agreed to.Bill reported without amendment and the

report adopted.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.50 ).in.

BILL-REOFPROCAL ENFORCEMENTOF JUDGM.%ENTS.

In Committee.Bill passed through Committee withot

debate, reported without amnendmnent, andithe report adopted.

BILL-LOCAL COURTS ACT AMEND-MENT.

In Committee.

Hon. J. Ewing in the Chair; the Ministerfor Education in charge of the Dill.

Clause 1-agreed to.

Clause 2-Amendment of Section 29:Hon. Sir EDWARD WVITTENOOML: I

would like an explanation of this clause.Nearly all the latitude given by the pro-p)osed prvs is emibodied in the existingAct, all' the amendinen t therefore iilppflrtto be redundant.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Thewvhole quest ion lies iii the words of thle Actpermitti ng the Judgment creditor to berepresented by any clerk or servant or suchother person ''by special leave.' Withoutthe special leave, the plaintiff must appearpersonally or be represented by counsel. Asat matter of practice one mnagistrate is vcryloth to give special leave. Wh'en a casereachles the stage that the creditor haes toshow that the debtor haes means and there-fore should be commnitted to prison for per-sistent refusal to pay, the ease is prettydesperate. The creditor has little chanceof recovering anything, and it is considereduinfair to put him to the expense of employ-ing a solicitor to appear for him. A clerkor sonic other person should be sufficient torepresent hint.

Hlon. Sir Edward Wittenooni: What doesthe solicitor say to that?

The )ITNISTER FOR EDUCATION: Ithink 31r. Nicholson considers it a reason-able proposal. At tie present tinme themagistrate may exercise discretion andallow some other person to appear. Wepropose that the Judgment creditor may berepresented by his clerk or servant withoutspecial leave being necessary.

lHon. Sir Edward Wittenoom: The Act ispermissive nod the amendnmcnt compulsory 7

The MINISTER FORl EDUCATION:That is so.

Clause put and passed.

Clauses 3 to 5 and Title-agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment and thereport adopted.

BILLrENTIDENCE ACT AMIEND-MENT.

Second Reading.

Order of the Day read for the resnrnp-tion from the previous day of the adjourneddebate on the second reading.

Question put and passed.

Bill read a second time.

in Commnittee, etc.

Bill passed through Committee without de-bate, reported without amendment, and thereport adopted.

660

[7 Szra'sMsaa, 1921.] 0

BILL-OPFICIAL TRUSTEE.

Second Reading.Order of the Day read for the resumption

from the previous day of the adjonraeddebate on the second reading.

On motion by Hon, S. Nicholson debate fur-ther adjourned.

]IIL-PREMTANTLE MdUNICItPAL 'VRAM_%-AY.NS AND ELECTRIC LIGHTI.NG

ACT AMTENDM1ENT.Second Reading.

Haon. R, J,. LYNN (West) (7.18] in, mov-ing the secoiid reading said: This is a veryshort aut simple measure required by theFremantle Trainways Trust in order to facili-tate their operations. Doubtless many lion.inembers are aware that that trust was speci-ally created] by an Act of Parliament. TheFrequntle tramnway system, although ownedby the two municipalities of Frenmantle andEast Fremnantle, is controlled and managed bya trust consisting of two representatives ofeach municipality, and the 'Mayor of Fremian-tie ex officio. I had the privilege of being oneof tile first mnembers of that trust, and for15 years I have held a seat on it. During theperiod of its existence, the trust has paid in-terest to the aniount of £97,000, and has cre-ated a depreciation and reserve fund, in actualcash, of £E57,000. Seone of this cash, I shouldexplain, has been utilised in connection with

anew sub-station, equipped with transform-ers, which was renderedI necessary by the tak-ing of power supply from the Perth powerhouse. ]\o loan was floated for that purpose,the whole of time cost being umet out of thereserve fund. In addition, time trust have asinking fund of £43,000 in the State Treasuryand in the Commnmwealth Rank. Thus theFremnantle tramnway system, against a totalflotatiou of £150,000, to-day has £102,000in handl. .I mention these facts merely to showwlhnt a very successful undertaking time systemhas5 Proved. When the principal Act waspassed, no provision was made for time trustto obtain an overdraft. The result has beenthat although theb bank with which the trusttransact their business is quite willing to grantthemn an overdraft for special purposes, theyunfortunately cannot avail themselves of thebank's willingness, because legally they haveno right to incur such a liability. Thme twomnunicipalitics concerned, and in fact all par-ties concerned, approve of power beinggranted to the trust to borrow on over-draft to the extent of not more than£5,000. During the last few monthsthe necessity for such accommodationmade itself specially felt, because a con-signnment of lightimng material arrived unex-pectedly and the trust hadl to borrow a sumof 92.500 fromn a municipality in order to paythe duty. All surplus moneys at the end ofthme financial year, over and above the provi-sion for interest, siimking feuid, and deprecia-tion, arc handed over to the municipalities

concerned. Up to date there has been distri-buted in this way a total of £E7,672. Tbatamnount represents surpltus moneys over andabove all the various provisions rendered nie.cessary by the Act, The Bill merely asks thattile trust should have this little stand-by inthe form of an overdraft, and not he. incon-venienec in a way that a conunercial under-taking ought not to be. That is the effectof Clause 2. I move-

That the Bill he nowy read a second time.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

in Committee, etc.Bill passed through Comamittee without de-

bate, reported without amiendmnent, and the re-port adopted.

ADJOURNMENT.The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION

(Hon. H. P. Colebateb-East) [7.53]: Inorder to mueet the convenience of hon. memt-bere as far as possible, it mzay be advisablethat I should intimate now that in view ofthe condition of our business paper, and thleimprobability of obtaining any importantmeasures front the Legislative Assemblyduring the next three or four days, it is un-necessary that we should meet next week. Ofcourse it nwill be necessary for us to meet to-inorrow in order to deal further with variousBills. I merely throw out thle intimation thatiii view of the condition of our Notice Paperit is not mly intention to ask hon. membersto meet next week.

floe. Sir Edward Wittenooni: A fortnight'sadjournment would bie better. There is theshow the week after next.

The MNINSTR PH OE EDUCATION: I willtalk that over with the lhon. memiber later. Ir'iove-

That thme House do niow adjourn.

Question put amid passed.

House adjourned at 7.55 pmn.

661