spi 223 over the shoulder: how campaign - smart passive income€¦ · spi 223 over the shoulder:...

Show NoteS: http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/session223

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SPI 223Over the Shoulder: How John Lee Dumas Launched a Successful Kickstarter CampaignJuly 20, 2016

http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/

http://smartpassiveincome.com/session223


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Pat: ThisistheSmartPassiveIncomePodcastwithPatFlynn.Session

number223.Herewego.

Announcer: WelcometotheSmartPassiveIncomePodcast.Whereit’sallabout

workinghardnow,soyoucansitbackandreapthebenefitslater,

andnowyourhost,heplays5on5basketballat5inthemorning,

PatFlynn.

Pat: Heywhat’supeverybody.PatFlynnhere.Thankyousomuchfor

joiningmetoday.Iamsohappytoshareanothergreatstorywith

youtoday,andthisisfromsomebodywhowealreadyknowfrom

EntrepreneuronFire.ThatisJohnLeeDumas.Heisthemaster,the

machine,andthemaniacbehindanawesomepodcastthatyoucan

listentooniTunes7daysaweek.Greatinterviewswithamazing

entrepreneurs.Iwasactuallyepisodenumber1,funfact,butwe’re

bringingJohnontodaytonottalkaboutpodcasting,buttotalk

abouthisrecentKickstartercampaignforsomethingcalledthe

FreedomJournal.

Igottotellyou,I’mgoingtobehonest,Ididn’teventellJohnthis,

soyou’regettingalittlebitofinsiderinformationhere,butwhen

hefirstpresentedthisideatome,Ihadthought,“ReallyJohn.Are

yousomebodyreallyqualifiedtodothis,”andmanhecrushedit.

He’smadealotofmoney,butmorethanthat,he’shelpingalotof

peopleachievetheirgoalswiththisprojectofhis,soI’mgoingto

havehimcomeonandtellyouaboutwhattheFreedomJournalis,

andIhavemyown,andit’sgreat,andI’mjustreallyexcitedtoshare

sometipsthatyoucanuseinyourbusinesstoo,whenlaunching

something,perhapsonKickstarter,ifyouchoosetogodownthat

route.

We’lltalkaboutwhenorwhennottouseit,andsomeofthepit

falls,andsomeofthealsobenefitsofusingitaswell,butwhether

youlaunchonKickstarterornot,thisisgoingtobeareallyhelpful

episodetoyoutoo,andifanything,atleastit’sgoingtobeinspiring,

becauseitwasinspiringtome.I’mnowhavingthegearsturninmy

headonwellwhatcouldIdoonKickstarter,andIknowthatcanbe

alittledangerousbecauseIknowthere’salotofotherthingsto




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focusontoo,butlet’sjustgetrightintotheinterview,andhowJohn,

andKate,andthewholeteambehindtheFreedomJournalraised

nearlyahalfmilliondollarsthroughKickstarter.Herewego.

What’supeverybody.PatFlynnhere,sostokedtobetalkingtoour

goodfriendJohnLeeDumas.John,welcomebacktotheshowfor

thethirdfriendmyfriend.Welcomeback.

John: Pat,thereisnoplaceI’dratherbethanrighthererightnowwith

you.

Pat: Wellwhenyousayrighthererightnow,physicallywhereareyou

rightnow?

John: PuertoRico.

Pat: PuertoRicodude.

John: Ijustfiguredouthowtopronouncecorrectly,andI’mstoked.

Pat: Howareyousupposedtopronounceit?

John: PuertoRico.IusedtosayPuertoRico,but...

Pat: PuertoRicoyeah.

John: YougottotrillthatR.

Pat: Wellyoulivetherenow,soforsure.Congratsonthemove.Isaw

partoftheplaceandkindofwhereyou’reat.Amazing.Amazing.

YouknowI’msurepeoplecangoovertoyourFacebookpageor

listentoEntrepreneuronFiretotalk,ortolearnaboutwhythatall

happened,butIwanttogetintosomethingthatIknowisonalotof

people’smindstoday,andthatisthesuccessofyourmostrecent

Kickstartercampaign,andyourfirstoneIbelieve?Right?

John: Myfirstever.

Pat: Yourfirstandmostsuccessful,andprobablyleastsuccessfultoo




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sinceit’syouronlyone,butitdidverywell.Canyougiveusa

rundownonwhatitisthatyoupromotedandkickstartedandhow

muchyoumadefromit?

John: WhatIdid,backinJanuary...OnJanuary4thof2016waslaunch

theFreedomJournalcampaign,whichisanactualphysicaljournal,

soit’safauxleather,becauseIloveanimals,goldembossedjournal

whereItakepeoplethroughprocessofsettingandaccomplishing

theirnumberonegoalin100days.WelaunchedonJanuary4th.

Wediditfor33days,soweconcludeditonFebruary5th,andthe

conclusionofthatKickstartercampaignwasoverseventhousand

backers,andover$453,000inrevenue,whichactuallymadeusthe

sixthmostfundedpublishingcampaignofalltime.

Pat: Wow,soalmosthalfamilliondollarsfromaKickStartercampaign.

John: Yes.

Pat: Congratulations.

John: Thankyou.Wellyouwereabighelpthere.

Pat: Yeah.Iknow,andIhaveacopyofthebookrighthere,andit’s

beautiful.Ihavesomanyquestions,soIthinkIjustwanttostart

rightatthebeginning.WhytheFreedomJournal?

John: Ithinkthisisagreatquestionbecauseyouansweredthisquestion

inalotofwaysinyourgreatbookWillItFly?,whichIveryhappily

promotedaswell,becauseit’sphenomenaloneverylevel.It’sall

abouthowcanIprovidevaluetomyaudience,mylisteners,my

fans,whoI’mgrowingbygivingfreevaluableconsistentcontent

overthecourseofmonths,youknow,years,justbuilditup.Ikept

askingthemthatquestion.Whatareyou,firenation,struggling

with?Iwouldjustlisten.I’dkickbackandlisten,anditbecamevery

obviousinearly2015thatthecommonanswerwas,“John.Isee

thatyourguestsonEOFireknowhowtosetandaccomplishgoals,

andthat’swhytheirsuccessfulentrepreneurs,andwe’restruggling

withthatverything.Howdowesetandaccomplishgoals?”




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Ilistened.Itwasaverycommonpainpointandobstacle,soIsat

down.Isaid,“HowcanIcreatethesolutionforthis,butinaunique

way.”Ididn’twanttojustcreatesomePDForsomeappthatcould

getlostinthecomputer,orthatcouldbereplicatedveryeasily,so

Idecidedtoreallysitdownandcreatesomethingspecial.Iwanted

ittobethat,youjustdescribed,abeautifulfauxleatherjournalthat

peoplewouldjustbeproudtohaveontheirdesks,andtheirnight

stands,takeittoStarbucks,whathaveyou,andthatitwouldreally

bethebridgeofthatgapthatpeoplehadinthatknowledge.Where

theydidn’tknowhowtosetasmartgoal,andthenaccomplishthat

goalinasetperiodoftime,whichIchoseas100days.Itwasreally

justaresponse,Pat,topeoplesaying,“John.Thisiswhatmypain

pointis.”Melistening,andthencreatingthesolution.

Pat: Ithinkit’sagreatidea.YouknowIwriteinajournaleveryday.The

fiveminutejournal,whichissimilarinthatyou’rekindofmeantto

writethingsdowneveryday.Reflectonwhatyou’vebeendoing,

butIlikeyours,becauseit’sveryspecifictowardanendpoint.That

youcontinuallylookforwardtoachievingthatgoal,andday-to-day

you’rekindofcrackingawayatit,andgettingcloser,andcloserto

thatfinaloutcome,whichisfantastic.Obviouslyalready,Imeanyou

haveaFacebookgroupofover5,000peoplewhohavepickedup

thebookandaresharingsuccessstorieseveryday.It’sawesome,

andsoyoursolutionisagreatone,andit’sobviouslyproviding

resultsforpeople.

Intermsofgettingitoutthere,Imeanyoucould’vepublishedthis

assomethingonAmazon.Youcould’vejust...Youhaveahuge

audiencealreadyonEOFire,whynotjustdoitthatway?Howcome

youwantedtouseKickstarter?

John: There’sanumberofreasons.Icankindofmaybestartwithnumber

one,whichIlovetransparency,andyouPatwereabigperson

thatkindofshowedmethelightbackin2011,asIwaskindof

gettingmyheadwrappedaroundlikewhatitmeanttobeanonline

entrepreneur.YouknowIstumbledacrossSPI,Iwaslike,wow.Ijust

lovehowagood,genuine,familyguyisprovidingvalue,andthen

he’ssharinghisincomereports.Ijustlovedthattransparency.When




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IstartedgeneratingrevenuewithEOFire,Iwantedtoreplicatethat

forpodcastersandIdidthesame.I’vebeendoingthatnowfor34

monthsandwillcontinuetodothatgoingforwardaswell.That’sa

bigpartofwhatwedoonoursite.

Ijustlovedthattransparency,andsoIsaid,“HowcanIbringthatto

areallycoolcampaignidea,”andIsatdownandIsaid,“Welllisten.I

couldrecreatethewheelrightnow,”becauseIhadtheopportunity,

Ihadthewebdeveloper,wecouldcreatesomethinglikea

Kickstarterthat’sareallycoolcampaignanditjustshowsdifferent

pledgelevels,etcetera,orIcouldjustdedicatemytime,energy,

andresourcestothebook,andtomakingtheFreedomJournalthe

bestjournalpossible,andutilizesomethingthatwasalreadythere.

IlookedatKickstarterandIsaid,“Manit’saphenomenalplatform.

Peopletrustit.TheyknowthenameKickstarter.Theyhavethatjust

beliefthat...youknow,ifIdon’tquiteknowJohnLeeDumas,if

Ihaven’tmaybeheardofhim,atleastIknowthatwithKickstarter

thatthey’relegit,andifthisallfallsthrough,”they’relike,“I’llgeta

refundorwhatever.”Ilikedthattrustthatthethirdpartybroughtin.

PlusPat,somethingthat’snearanddeartobothofourhearts,

PencilsofPromise,Iwantedtobringthemonboard,andsoIsaid,

“PencilsofPromise.Iwantyouonboard.Iwantyoupartofthis,

becauseeverytimewehitafundinggoal,I’mgoingtopersonally

writeacheckonbehalfofthebackersfor$25,000tobuildaschool

inadevelopingcountry,”becauseIreallywantedtobeabletosay

Firenation,andanybodyelsewhowantstheirFreedomJournal,

giveyourselfthegiftofaccomplishingyournumberonegoal,and

alsogivethegiftofeducationtothoselessfortunate.Thatwas

reallyanimportantfactorformecreatingthisbigcampaignaround

theFreedomJournal,andIwantedPencilsofPromisetobe100%

comfortablethattheyweregoingtoseethebacks,theyweregoing

toseethenumbersbyathirdparty,separated,fullytransparent,

fullytrusted.




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ThosewereanumberofthereasonsthatIsaid,“HeyI’mjust

goingtogothere.Thewheelsalreadybeencreated.Icancreate

coolpledgelevels.Makethisreallyfun.Everything’stransparent

onKickStarter.Peoplecanwatchit.Theycanseeit.Theycanget

updatesonEOfire.Let’sdothis.”

Pat: IloveKickstarter.I’vebacked,Idon’tknow,adozenorsodifferent

projects,includingyours,andyouknow,it’sjustoneofthoseplaces

whereitdoescomewiththatleveloftrust.Obviouslyyou’resharing

alittlebitofthatincomethatcomesinwithKickstartertoutilizetheir

platform,butifyourprimarygoalisactuallygettingthewordout

thereandspreadingtheideabehindjustreachingthesegoalsand

gettingtheFreedomJournalinpeople’shands.Imeanit’sdefinitely

Ithinkaverywisedecision.NowI’mthinkingaboutjustwhatit

wouldbeliketocomeupwithaphysicalproductandpromoteiton

Kickstarterandlaunchacampaign,andthefirstthingthatcomesto

mindnowislike,okay.Youhavethisidea.Wheredoyouevenstart

withgettingsomethingphysicaldone?Imean,Ialsowanttotalkto

youaboutkindofthecontentinthebookaswell,butintermsof

manufacturingandstuff,wherewouldonestartwiththat?Where

didyoustartwiththat?

John: Phenomenalquestion,andIreallythinkthisisoneofthosethings

thatwhenyouputstuffoutthereintheuniverseyoujustattract

things.It’scrazy.Youknowwhenyoubuythatnewcaryou’relike,

ohIneverseethiscarontheroad,thenlikeallyouseeisthatcar

forthenextcoupleyears.You’relikewhat,whatwasIseeing.It’s

thesamething.Whenyoujustputsomethingoutthere,andIwas

like,“ManIactuallywanttocreateaphysicalproduct,”becauselike

you,IwasafanoftheFiveMinuteJournal.Iwouldwriteinitevery

singleday,andIstillutilizeitforsure.Youknowmyonethingwith

thefiveminutejournalwasIwasjustdoingthesamethingevery

day,andIdidn’tnecessarilyfeellikeIwasgettingtowardsagoal

thatIwasaccomplished,soIsaid,“ThisiswhereIreallyfitinina

uniquewaywiththeFreedomJournal.Thisiswhat’sgoingtosetit

apartandmakeitaveryspecial.Thatonegoalin100days,which

wasreally,reallyimportanttome.”




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Iputitoutthere.SaidIwantedtocreateaphysicalproduct,and

loandbehold,thenextroundofinterviewsIdidforEOFire,I

interviewedagreatguy,bythenameofRichieNorton,whowrote

thisgreatbookcalledStartSomethingStupid.Wejustreallyhititoff,

andafterourchat,hesaid,“HeyJohn.Iwantedtorunanideaby

youbecauseIheardyoumentionsomethingaboutaproductthat

youwanttocreate.Physical.Ijustlaunched,andit’sbetarightnow,

butIjustlaunchedanewcompanycalledProuduct.Combination

ofproudandproduct,soProuduct.com,andthat’sexactlywhatwe

do.Wetakeentrepreneursidea,andwedoallthework.Wedothe

legworkintheUnitedStates.Wefindtheperfectmanufacturerfor

you.WhetheritbeintheUSoroverseas.Wepriceitoutforyou.All

ofthesethings,”soIwaslike,“Um.That’sperfect,becauseIdon’ta

thingaboutaphysicalproduct.WheredoIsign?”

IsignedupRichieontotheteam.Thatwasbackinearly,early2015,

andweworkedtogetherallyear,andPat,thisguyjustsaid,“Goto

BarnesandNoble.Grababunchofjournalsthatyoulike.Showme

thethingsthatyoulikeandwhatyoudon’t.Senditallovertome

andwe’llkindofFrankensteintheperfectjournaltogether.”Hesent

histeamovertheChina,becausewetriedtogetinmanufactured

intheUnitedStates,andeverycompanysaid,“Wejustcan’tdo

thiswhatyouwant.Thegoldedges.Thegoldembossed.Thefaux

leather.Wejustcan’tphysicallydothis.”

Hejustkeptgettingano,sohesenthisteamovertoChina,bythe

waypeopleonhisteamspeakMandarin.Theyfoundtheperfect

manufacturingplantinChina,andIgotagreatstoryaboutthatlater,

andthentheyinkedadeal,andfor$6.50perFreedomJournal,

andPatyou’reholdingthatthing.Thatisasolidbigbookwithfaux

leather,goldleaf,there’sbookmarks,there’sstraps,likeIreally

wentalloutwiththisthing.It’slikeaCadillacofjournals,andIwas

abletogetitfor$6.50,20,000printedinChina.Shippedtothe

UStomymanufacturingplant...Imean,sorry,tomydistribution

plantinLA,whichisagreatcompanycalledShipwire,wherethey

fulfilleverythingattheclickofabutton.IntegratingwithShopify,

younameit.Boom.Myhandswerebasicallyofftheentireproject.

Prouducttookthisbabyhome.




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Pat: Geeze.Thatsoundsamazing,butIthinkitgoesalongwithwhata

lotofusentrepreneursdon’trealizewhenwe’refirststartingout

isthatthere’scompanies,therearepeopleoutthere,whoknow

alotmorethanwedo.Ifwehavesomethingwewanttodo,and

wedon’tknowhowtodoit,there’slikelypeoplewhodothatwe

canconnectwithandworkwith.Whatwereyourkindofdealswith

them,ifyoudon’tmindmeasking?Iknowitmightbesomething

inparticularthatyouguyshavedonetogether,butwhatcouldone

expecttoshareintermsofworkingtogetheronaproductlikethat?

John: Pat.It’sJLD.Anyquestionyouask,you’regettinganumber,you’re

goingtogetthe100%.That’swhatIpridemyselfon.Thanksto

inspirationfrompeoplelikeyou,so100%brother.I’mgoingtogive

youthefullmontyrighthere.Richiesaid,“ListenJLD,we’reinbeta

rightnow.Wedon’thaveanycustomers.ThisisanideathatIhave.

Here’smywebsite.ThisiswhatIwanttodo,andIjustwouldloveto

haveyouonboard,andIknowthatbringingyouonboard,you’re

goingtogetmassivepopularity.You’regoingtohaveallofthis

mediaattention.Etcetera,etcetera.Thisisgoingtobehugefor

me,soletmehandlethis.Allyouneedtopayiscostofgoods,we’ll

dotherest.Thiswillbealossleaderforus.”

Iknowyou’vehadalotofgreatscenarioslikethat.Powerpeople

thathavecometoyouandsay,“Hey.Wewanttodothisforyoufor

free,becauseweknowifwedoagreatkickbuttjob,peopleare

goingtobelikePat.Howdidyougetthatappmade?”Youcanbe

like,“Wellhere’sagreatcompany,”boomthey’reofftotherace.

That’sexactlywhathappenedtoProuduct.IcantellyouIdoknow

thatifyougotoProuduct.comtheykindoflistthingsout,andit’s

goingtobeapercentageoftheoverallspendthatyouhave.For

me,itwasonlycostofgoods,soitreallywasasweetheartdeal,

butnow,youknow,RichieandProuductarealloverSPI,whichis

oneofthebestpodcastsintheworld,soIthinkit’sbeenworthitfor

them.

Pat: Thankyou,andI’mlookingatitrightnow,anditsoundslikeagreat

deal.Youknow,that’soneofthethingsthatIwasalwayswondering

about.Howdoyouactuallygoaboutmanufacturing,gettingthe




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stuffdone,andI’veheardofstoriesofpeopleactuallygoingto

Chinaandtryingto,orgotoAlibaba.comandtryingtoworkitwith

itthatway.Ifthere’ssomebodyelsethatdoesitforyouthat’sgreat.

That’sProuduct.PROUDUCT.Ofcourseallofthelinksaregoingto

beintheshownotesandstuff,andI’msuretherewillbemorelinks

afterwecontinuethisconversationhere,butyouhadmentioned

somefunnystoryofsomethingthathappenedrelatedtoyour

manufacturing.Canyousharethat?

John: Yeah,sobasicallyitwasallgettingmanufacturedkindofatthe

endof2016.Sorry,attheendof2015,whichiskindofaround

mybirthday,soRichieactuallywentoverthereandhewaslike

juststandingamongstpilesandpilesofFreedomJournal.Just

thecoversandthepage,likeitwas20,000copies,whichtotaled

uptothreemillionpages.Theyliterallydedicatedthiswhole

manufacturingplanttojusttheFreedomJournalprinting,because

theywerereallygettingitgoingsowecouldhaveitintimeforour

January4th,2016launch.Hekindofjustmentionedoffhand,he’s

like,“Hey.It’skindofcrazy.It’sactuallyJohn’sbirthdaytoday,”and

itwasDecember16th,andapparentlytheChinesepeoplewere

like,“Weneedtodosomethingspecialforthisguy.Heisliterally

keepingourplantrunningrightnow.Weprobablywouldbeshut

downotherwisefortheholidays.Thishasjustbeenagreatorder

forus.”

Theyallgottogetherandtheysingmefirsthappybirthdaythen

happybirthdayinChinese.Sentmethevideo,whichIofcourse

sharedwithmyentireFreedomJournallist,whichIwasbuilding

uptothelaunch,andeverybodyjustlovedit.That’swhatIlove.

You’llhearalotofpeople,andI’msurewe’llgetacommenthere

ortherelike,“Whydidn’tyouprintintheUSA?”Numberone,we

didtry.WereallywantedtoprintintheUSA.I’manarmyveteran.

Iserved8yearsintheUSarmy.IwenttoIraqfor13months.I’m

aproudAmericanthroughandthrough,andIwishwecould’ve

doneitonalotoflevels,butwejustcouldn’tdoit,andgettingthat

video,Iwaslikemanthesearepeople.Thesearehumans,and

theyaresohappytohavethisworkthatthey’redoingforus.Now

they’regoingtobeabletogobacktotheirfamiliesandhavealittle




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betterholiday,becausethere’sabigChineseholidayrightaround

Christmastimeaswell,anditjustreallykindofhithomeandreally

madeitspecial.

Pat: That’sawesomeman.That’sreallycool.Thengoingbacktothe

contentofthebook,it’snotjustblanksthatyoufillin,there’salotof

greatcontentinthefrontpartofthebook.Howwasthatallfigured

out?Wasitallresearched,orwasitjustyoucameupwithitand

putitoutthere?Obviouslyifyou’reprinting20,000booksyouwant

whatyoureallywantinthere.Telluswhatallwentintothat.

John: Thatwasalaborofloveforayear.IknewthatifIwasgoingtodo

this,ifIwasgoingtoinvestupfront,bythewayover$130,000

iswhatIhadtoputintotheprojectbeforeweevenlauncheda

Kickstartercampaign,soitwasabigleapoffaithonFirenationand

onthisproductreallybeingsomethingthatpeopleneeded,butI

saidhey,Ireallywantthistobespecial.Ipouredeverythingintoit.

Ireallyfocusedmytime,energy,andeffortonlearningeverything

Icouldaboutgoals,abouthabits,aboutx,y,andz.That’swhere

Isaid,“Hey.Ireallywanttomakethebeginningpartofthebook

somethingthatwillguidepeopleinsettingasmartgoal.”That’s

wherepeoplefailPat.

Let’sjustsaysit’sJanuary,Februaryofanyyear,youhearpeople

say,“Iwanttoloseweight.”Thereasonwhytheyfailisbecause

they’renotsettingasmartgoal,whichisspecific,measurable,

attainable,relevant,timebound.Iwanttoloseweightisjust

specific.Youneedtoaddmeasurable.Iwanttolose10pounds.

Isitattainable?Wellitisattainableforme,becauseI’m175now,

andIknowIcangetdownto165.I’vebeentherebefore.Wellisit

relevant?WellyesitisforbecauseIwanttolookbetter,feelbetter,

havemoreenergy.Isittimebound?WellthankstotheFreedom

Journalit’s100days,andI’mblockingitonforthat.

Ireallywantedtostartthebeginningofthebookbysaying,“This

ishowyousetthatsmartgoal.Letmetrainyou.Letmeshowyou

aspecificexample,”andIactuallyshowedanexampleofwriting

abookintheFreedomJournalofhowyoucandothat.Settinga




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smartgoal.Thenonceyougetgoingandsetthatsmartgoal,the

next100daysisallaboutguidingyouintheaccomplishmentof

thatbig,bigonefocusedgoal.Those100days.It’snotjustlikeday,

night,daynight,again,whichIlovethefiveminutejournal,butI

wantedtoreallystructurethisinasettingandaccomplishingone

majorgoal.

Youstartofdayonewithatendaysprint,becausethere’stenten-

daysprint.Everysingletenthday,you’reaccomplishingamicro-

goal,soondayten,you’re10%oftheway.Onday20you’ve

accomplishedasecondmicro-goal.You’re20%oftheway.Allthe

waythrough,soyou’recontinuingtobuildmomentumandtohave

winsalongtheway.Every25thdaywedowhat’scalledaquarterly

review,whereyoulookbackontheprevious25daysandyousay,

“Whatworked.Whatdidn’t.Howcanweamplifywhatworked.How

canwemaybeadjustandtweakthingsthatdidn’twork.”

Thenofcourseeverysingledaywehavespecifictasks,andevery

singlenightwehavegreatrecapswithquotes,andwithgreat

affirmations.Justmakingsurethatyouarestayingtotaskevery

singleday.IamputtingarocksolidJLDguaranteethatifyouseta

smartgoal,therightway,whichagainabigpartofthesmartgoalis

attainable,andyoufollowthe100daysoftheFreedomJournalyou

willaccomplishthatbignumberonegoalin100daysperiod.

Pat: Loveit.ThankyoufortheJohn.Wherecanpeoplegogetthebook?

Justshoutoutthelinkheremid-showrightnow.

John: Yeah.OnethingthatIreallywasexcitedaboutwasduringthe

FreedomJournalcampaign,ofcourse,wewerewantingtosend

peopletotheKickstarterofit,butassoonasitendedonFebruary

5th,weshutiteverythingdown.WefulfilledthoseKickstarter

orders.ThenonMarch1st,weopeneduptheFreedomjournal.

com,whichisjustconnectedstraighttoaShopifyaccountwhich

syncsupperfectlywithShipwire.Everysingleday,Pat,we’redoing

between20to40ordersadayoftheFreedomJournal,andthat’s

notactualbooksales.Thoseareorders.Peopleareordering

2packs,5packs,10packs.We’redoing20to40ordersaday




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throughourShopifyaccountattheFreedomjournal.comanditis

completelyhandsfree.

NowPat.You’reMr.SmartPassiveIncome.Weknowthat,andthere

wasnopassivenessformebuildinguptothis,butnow,I’vebeen

movingtoPuertoRicoforthelastweek.We’vebeendoingover

athousanddollarsinsalesadayontheFreedomJournal,andI

haven’tliftedafingeronthat,becauseitisallautomatic.

Pat: Lovethat,butyouputinthehardworkupfronttomakeitall

happenofcourse.Let’stalkalittlebitaboutthemarketingand

gettingtheKickStartercampaignkindofstarted.Foranybodyout

therewho’sinterestedinKickstarter,whatwouldyoutellthem...

Whatdotheyneedtopreptoreallyknockitoutoftheparkwhen

theygoalong,whentheylaunch?

John: Absolutely,andIlovehowyoujustreallygettothemeatand

potatoesinyourinterviewsPat.Imeanit’ssocritical,soI’mgoingto

getintothingsthatreallyworkedforthemarketingoftheFreedom

JournalKickStartercampaign.Thenifyouwanttowecangetinto

whatI’mcurrentlydoingnowtoreallymarkettheFreedomJournal

nowthatit’sjustsittingthereatthefreedomjournal.com.

ThebestthingIcansaynumberonetothrowoutalinkis,Kate

wroteakillerarticleonhowtocrushKickstarteratEOFire.com/

kickstarter.ShealsoputitonMedium.Youknowhowtheytellyou

likehowmanyminutesittakestoreadanarticleonMedium?Itsays

62minutes.Thisisnotashortarticle.

Pat: Ireadthatarticle.Itwasfantastic,soKate,ifyou’relisteningtothis,

awesomejob,andeverybodyshoulddefinitelygo.EOFire.com/

kickstarterifyouwanttocheckitout.

John: That’sit.Thoseare100%ofthedetail,butreallytopullthe

highlightsout,Iknowwhatmymajorleveragepointswereasthe

hostofEOfire,andthatisexactlythat.That’sthepodcast.Imean,

Pat,Ilaunchedthepodcastbackin2012,andit’sbeenthemain

focalpointofeverythingthatI’vedonesince.Iknowforyou,your




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story’salittledifferent,you’vecometoseeyourpodcastasamain

focalpointovertheyears,andit’sjustexplodedforyou,andyou

haveAskPatnow,andallthesegreatthingsgoingon,butformeit’s

alwaysbeenthefocalpoint.IknewthatthatwaswhereIwasgoing

tofocustheFreedomJournalKickstartermarketingon.

Isaid,“Hey.AllofJanuary.Fromthe4thtoFebruary5th,I’mgoing

tojumpoutofthenormalEOFiremode”,whichishavingguests

oneverysingledaysayingwhat’syourworstmoment,what’syour

ahhamoment,lightninground,etcetera,andIwasgoingtobring

on33ofmytoppastguests.PeoplelikeChrisBrogan,DanMiller,

MichaelHyatt,fillintheblanks.JustthetopgueststhatI’vehadon

EOFire,andeverydayfor33daysIwasgoingtobringthemonand

weweregoingtotalkaboutgoals.Agoalthattheyset.How’dthey

accomplishthatgoal.Whattheythinkwasthereasontheywere

successfulforsettingandaccomplishinggoal.Toreallymakeitthat

monthofjustthatremindereverysingledaylet’sfocusongoals.

Itwaskindofthemonthoffreedomandthemonthofgoal,which

wasreallyimportant.Whatwasreallycoolisthat,andthisisa

flexibilityofpodcastingthatIlove,alittlebitofaninjatrick,Pat,

somethingthatIthinkyou’vedoneinthepast,butyoucouldreally

doprettyeffectively.Iwenteverysinglemorning,andrightbefore

Ipublishedtheepisode,IdidalivereadwhereIsaid,“Heyfire

nation,we’recurrentlyat$10,000and1,000backers,”or“Hey

wejusthit$25,000.WejustbuiltourfirstschoolwithPencilsof

Promise.”EverydayIwouldgivealiveupdateoftheFreedom

Journalcampaign.Everysingledayfor33dayspeoplewere

remindedrightaway,“ohyeah”,like,“I’vebeenmeaningtogetover

there.Letmegocheckitoutnow.Thefreedomjournal.com.”Itjust

directedthemovertotheKickstartercampaign,andthatwasso

huge.Thatdailyreminderofaliveupdate.Itwassobig,butwhat’s

thereality?

Idon’twantpeopletogobacktothosekiller33episodesandhear

liveupdatesofaKickStartercampaignthat’sdead,soIjustwent

back.Ire-editedthoseepisodes.Ipulledoutthatliveread,andI

replacedtheepisodes.AssoonasFebruary5thhit,anybodythat




14

goesbackandlistenstothoseepisodes,they’renotgoingtohear

thoselivereads.Itwasjustduringthose33days,soitstaysvery

relevant,andit’snotsomeannoyinglivereadthat’snotrelevant

anymore.Foranypodcastersoutthere,justareallygreatwayfor

youtokindofdiveinandgetalittleninjathere.Whatdoyouthink

Pat?

Pat: Yeah.I’vedonethatbeforeonasmallscaleandit’ssomethingthat

Ifeel...ThatIwishcouldbedonealoteasier.Imeanit’salittlebit,

ittakessometimetodothat,butit’sdefinitelysomethingthatyou

cando.Whetherit’schangingtheadsinyourshows,orthecallto

actionsifyouhavesomethingelsecomingup,youcanaddalittle

pluginattheendforyourcoursethat’scomingoutoverthenext

twoweeksforexampleandtakingitoutafterwards.

There’salotthingscanbedonewithalittlebitofextrawork

goingbackintoyourbacklogofepisodesandchangingsome

thingsaround.Ilovethatyoumentionedthatthere.That’sagreat

reminderformeactually,sothankyouforthatJohn.Whatdoes

somebodydoifthey’reinterestedinKickstarterandtheydon’thave

anaudiencelikeyoudid.Whataresometipsthatyou’velearned

throughyourresearch,gettingintoKickStarterandstuff,thathave

workedreallywellforothers,forexample,toreallygettheword

outthere.Ithinkitwasgeniuswhatyoudid,andyoudiditinthe

absoluteperfectway,butdoyouhaveanytipsforpeoplewhoare

juststartingout,whohaveagreatidea,theyhaveagreatproduct,

butjustneedsomehelpgettingitoutthere?

John: Absolutely,andwecanevenstickonthetopicofpodcasts,

becausethiswasbyfarthesecondbestthingthatIdidthathad

nothingtodowithmypodcasts.Iwentonaguestpodcasting

spree.Ireachedouttopeoplethatwerepodcastingforyears,for

months,evenforweeks.Inthebusinessfield,inthehealthfield,

becauseagain,theFreedomJournalisnotbusinessspecific.It’s

anybodythatneedstoaccomplishtheirnumberonegoal.Iwas

saying,“Hey.HowcanIaddvaluetoyourpodcastingaudience,”

becauseIjustknowthatpodcastingissuchanincrediblewayto

gettoknowsomebody.Tobuildincredibleknow,like,andtrust,and




15

intimacy.Just20,25,30minutes.It’sjustunlikeanyothermedium.

Ididn’teventry,tobehonest,guestpostingatall.Thatjustwasn’t

somethingthat’smystrongsuit.Ididn’tevengodownthatroad,but

Isetup40guestpodcastingspots.

ThatIsaidtothepeople,“Listen.It’sNovemberorit’sDecember,

Iwouldlovetorecordthisnow,butcanyoupleaseholdoffand

releasethiseitherJanuary4thorsoonthereafterasyoucan.”Allof

asudden,boom.OnJanuary4thIhadalltheseguestpodcasting

spotsgoon,andinfact,inAskPatyougavemeacoupleofshout

outsoftheFreedomJournalandIwassothankful,andthatwas

oneofthethingsthatwereallyfocusedon.

Saying,“Hey.Howcanwereachouttopodcasterswhohavean

audiencethatwouldmakesenseformeandjustgivevalueto

them,”soIwouldhavesomecoolthingslikeIwanttoprovidevalue

toyouraudience,here’sacouponcode.Here’ssomethingthatI

wanttodo.MaybeI’llbringyouonEOFirecomingupinthenext

couplemonths.Howcanweexchangevaluesoyou’llmakethis

happen,andthatwassopowerful.Infact,itlaunchedEOFire,my

podcast,intothetopfiveinallofbusinesspodcastsfortheentire

month,becauseIwasguestpodcastingonsomanypodcasts,

andPat,youknowhowhardthatis.WithTimFerrisandStartUp,

andPlanetMoney,it’slikeimpossibletocrackthetopfive,but

itpropelledEOFiretothetopfiveforthatonemonthbecause

everybody’slike,“Ohyeah.I’veheardofEOFire.Letmegocheck

itout,”andIwasgettingallthesenewsubscribers.Itwasjustthis

whirlwindofawesomeness,soguestpodcasting.

Pat: Yeah.That’sagreattip.Youwereveryfocusedonthis40days,

ornot40days,butduringthosefewdayswhenyouweredoinga

bunchofthoseinterview,becauseIknowyouliketobatchprocess,

whichIthinkissmart.Whenyou’rethatfocusedonsomethingyou’ll

getthoseresults.Ithinkalotofpeoplearejustkindofarelike,“Oh

I’lldoonehere,andonethere,”butifyouhaveabiglaunchcoming

up,batchthem,andyouneedtoaskthemtocomeoutwiththose

episodesatacertaintimeperiod.Likeyoudidwithme,andlikeI...

ThisistheexactsamethingIdidwhenWillItFlycameout.Iguest




16

podcasts.

Ididn’tguestblogpostbecauseittakesalittlebitmoretimeand

youcould’veusedthattimewithyourvoiceandbuildastronger

relationshipwithpeopleIfeelthroughthepodcaststhatareout

there.Obviouslythere’salotoutthere.WhateverKickstarter

campaignorproductyou’retryingtocreate,gooutthereandfind

podcastswhomayberelevantforthatparticularproduct,andthat’s

thethingthatIthinkisgoingtohelpyouthemost.YouknowJohn

andI,webothhavebignamesinthepodcastingworld,sosomeof

youlisteningtothismightstillbelike,“Ohyeah,wellthat’sJLDof

coursearepeoplearegoingtosayyes,”or“Ohyou’rePatFlynn.

Ofcourseifyoucomeoutwithabookpeoplewillwantyouon

yourshow,”butifyouhaveaproductthatisgreat,andyoushare

thatproductwiththepodcasthost.Maybeyoueven...Youhad

mentionedyourbookisonlysixbucks.

John: Right.

Pat: Ifyoudidn’thaveanycloutinthisspace,Icouldveryeasilysee

yousendingthisbooktosomebodyandsaying,“Hey.Ihavethis

journal.I’dlovetoshareitwithyouandyouraudience.I’mrunning

thisKickstartercampaign.I’dlovetocomeontheshowandtalk

aboutgoalsettingforyourpeoplewhoaretryingtoloseweight,”

andthatcouldgooververywell,andit’dbealotmoreconvincing

forsomebodytosayyestoyou,especiallyifyoushowthemthat

productatfirst.Evenifyoucan’tshowthemthatproductphysically

inhand,atleastshowthempicturesofitandthewholestory

behindit.Again,storiesagreatwaytoreallyconnectwithpeople,

andsoifyou’reaskingforsomething,thosearesomethingsyou

cansharewithpeopletogetthemtosayyessothatyoucan

becomeaguestontheirshow.

John: Iloveit.

Pat: Okay.Beforewegetintowhatthecampaignwaslikeduringit.I

wanttotalkmoreaboutthat.Whatelseyoudidduringtokindof

getmoreeyesandearsonthecampaign.What...Canyougiveusa




17

basicchecklist,forexample,ofthingsthatImightneedtoconsider

beforedoingaKickstartercampaign?Iknowyouhaveforexample

thevideowhichyoudidwithCalebWojcik,who’smyvideoguy,and

hedidagreatjob.Iknowyouguysworkedonthatscriptforquitea

while,whichreallysetthetoneforwhatthisjournaldoes,anditwas

great.Whataresomeotherthings.Achecklistofthingsthatpeople

needtohave,orunderstand,beforetheygetintoaKickstarter

campaignlaunch?

John: Yeah,andjusttodoubledownonthatvideo,it’ssocritical,because

thefirstthingpeopleseewhentheygettotheKickstarteristhey

seethatvideo.Theypresstheplaybutton,andyouliterallyhave

15secondstodrawthemin.That’ssohuge.CalebandIworked

sohardtogetheronthattogetitunder3minutes,becauseevery

placethatIlookedandread,andeverybodyItalkedtosaid,“You

have3minutes.You’renotgoingtohavesomeonestaylonger,so

getyourmessageacrossin3minutes,”andwegotoursdownto

2minutesand41seconds.Ourcompletionratewasactuallyreally,

reallyhigh,becauseyoucantrackthosethingsonanalyticsfora

Kickstarter.Ireallydothinkthat’sagoodtime,under3minutes.

Thenextthingreallygottofocusonisyourpledgelevels.Ihad

twopeoplethatwereworkingreallyhardwithmeonmyKickstarter

campaignwhoarebothcrowdfundingexperts.Numberoneis

BrandonTAdams.HewroteagreatbookcalledKeystotheCrowd.

Ifyouwanttolearnalittlemoreaboutcrowdfunding,Indiegogo,

Kickstarter,younameit,hisbookKeystotheCrowdiskiller.Hewas

themainKickstarterfocalpointforus.Theguythattookthelead

andreallyknewKickstarterandjustmadesurewehaddottedall

theIs,crossedalltheTs.

ClayHebertwasanotherguywhohasjustrunatonofgreatcrowd

fundingcampaigns.Heactuallycameoverforfourhourswesatat

mycomputerandwewentthroughthepledgelevels.Ilovedwhat

hetalkedabout.Hesaid,“Youwantpeopletobegoingdowna

slipperyslope.Youwantthemtogetontoyourpageandsayoh

yeah.There’satwodollarPDF.Thefirst30days,butwhat’stheone

belowit.17dollars.Igetthe100daysforjust17dollarsinthepdf




18

version,butohIcangetthewholedigitalpackfor27,ohthenthe

hardcover’s39,”andallthewaydownyoujustwantpeopletobe

likeyes,yes,yes.

Yougetthatfirstyes,andyougetthemdownthatslipperyslope,

til,youknow,Ihadthreepledgelevelsthatwere$10,000.Me

keynotingataconferenceandthenafulldaywithJLD.Ihadtwoof

eachofthose,whichallgotscoopedup,soItookpeopledownthat

slope.Yourpledgelevelisreallyyournextcheckboxthatyoureally

wanttomakesurethatyougodownandreallyjustget,because

youwantpeopletosay,“Iseethevaluethere,”andhopefully,if

theyseethevalueinonehardcover,they’llseethevalueinthegift

pack,becauseyou’regivingalittlebitmoreandit’salittlelessper

book,etcetera,allthewaydown.

IdidsomereallyfunthingstooPat.IhadonewhereheyI’llbea

guestonyourpodcastandyou’llgetfiveFreedomJournalssigned

bymesenttoyou,andIdidn’tdomanysignedFreedomJournals,

andI’mnotonmanypodcastseither.Ireallylimithowmany

podcaststhatIappearon,becauselikeyou,Ijustgetbombarded

withrequestsonaday,month,weeklybasis,sothatwasreallya

focusofmine.

Ihavesomereallycoolpledgelevelslikethat,andit’ssocriticalthat

yourpledgelevelsmakesenseforyouraudience,foryourproduct,

andtheyreallywalkpeoplethroughinanon-overwhelmingway,

becausethemomentpeoplegetoverwhelmed,they’reout.They’ll

makenodecision.They’llgetparalyzed,soyouwantpeopleto

makeadecisioninaclearandconciseway.

Pat: Verynice.Ilovethat.I’veheardstoriesofpeoplewhohavetriedto

fulfillthings,orthey’vehadpledgeprizesIguessyou’dcallthem.

Pledgerewards.Theyjusthadanightmareofatimefulfillingthem.

Theyjusttakeoverthewholecampaignanditjustbecomesthey

wishtheyhadn’tevendoneit.Didyoucomeacrossanyofthose

struggleswithyourparticularpledgerewards?

John: I’mgladyoubroughtthatupforsurePat,becauseitissomething




19

youreallywanttothinkabout.Yougottopictureyourselffulfilling

everysingleoneofthosepledges,andIreallydidthat.That’swhy

IsaidIcouldprobablyfivedaywithJLDsfor10k,andthat’dbe

$50,000,butman,Ilovehavingthosefulldaysitdowns,butthat’sa

tonofbandwidth.That’sexhausting.Igivemyselftothose.It’sreally

important,soIkeptittotwo.Thenforkeynoting,IwaslikeIwantto

speak,butataverylimitednumberofconferences,andIwanttobe

atPodcastMovementofcourse,SocialMediaMarketingWorldof

course,soIdon’twanttojustthrowmyselfouttheretothewolves

andputfive,soIkeptittotwo.

IactuallyjustgotbackfromDesMoines,Iowatwoweeksagofor

myfirstofthetwothatI’mdoing,anditwasagreatexperience,but

I’mgladIonlydidtwo,becauseagain,IhavePodcastMovement

comingup,whereyouandIaregoingtobehangingoutinChicago,

thenI’mgoingtobespeakingatAgentsofChange,whereI’m

keynotingwithChrisBrogeninMaineinSeptember,whichPat

you’realsoalumniofofcourse.

Pat: Yep.Greatevent.

John: Ireallywantedtobefocusedonthat,somyanswertoyour

questionis,sitthereandactuallypictureyourselffulfillingthat.Ihad

tosignalotofcopiesoftheFreedomJournal,like40copies,andit

tookawhile,butIknewthatIwaswillingtosign40,butnot4,000,

andthatwasreallykey.Therehavebeensomereallyincredible

campaignsliketheCoolestCooler.Manypeoplehaveheardof.

$22,000,000theyraisedonKickstarter.Itwentviral.Guesswhat?

Theyhadamiserabletimefulfilling.Theyhavebeensued.They’ve

beeninlitigation.It’sbeenanabsolutenightmareforthem.Don’t

justlookatthehighpricesofpeoplethataregettingallthismoney

fromKickstarterandbelikewowtheyhititoutoftheroof.They

shotthemoon.That’samazing.

Youreallyhavetohaveyourfulfillmentinorder,andthat’swhereI

feelblessed,isthatIhadthefinancestopre-order20,000copies.

Havethemsittinginawarehouse,sothatthecampaignended

onFebruary5th,peoplewerereceivingtheirjournalsinhandon




20

February15th,whichisoutofcontrolforaKickstartercampaign.

Sometimesit’ssix,ninemonthsahead,andthat’sokay.Kickstarter

understandthat,andthat’stheprocess,butIhadmylogisticsdown

toaT.Ididn’tgetanyhiccups.Ididn’thaveanyproblems,butthat’s

ararity,butifyoudoitright,andyoureadthearticlethatKate

wrote,etcetera,youcanmakeithappen.

Pat: Nice.Yeah.Ijust...Funnywe’retalkingaboutthisrightnow,

becausejustlastweek,IreceivedaproductthatIbackedonthe

Indiegogo,whichwasasmartluggage,andithaslikeacharger

builtin,gps,soIalwaysknowwhereitis,andallthisothercool

stuff,andIhadordereditoverayearago,anditfinallyjustcame

in,butyouknowwhat,Iwasn’tmadaboutthat,becausetheyset

myexpectation.Theydidn’tevenhavethemevenbuiltyetbythe

timetheyweredoingtheIndiegogocampaign,whichisthecasefor

manyofthosetypesof...

John: Thenormactually.

Pat: Yeah.Itis,andsoyou’regoingtohavetoexpectalittlebitofa

delay,andifyouareproducingacampaignlikethatyouhaveto

setthatexpectation,andtheydidforme,andofcoursealongthe

way,theywerekeepingmeuptodateoneverything.Fromthe

manufacturing,fromwhentheyshippedtheirfirstonesout,and

howmanymoretheyhadtoshipuntilitwasgettingintomyturn,

anditkeptmehappyeventhoughIwaswaitingoverayear.Even

thoughIhadpaidhundredsofdollarsforthat,becausetheykept

meuptodate,andtheysetmyexpectation.Therewasnoproblem

there.

Icandefinitelyseecases,andI’vebeenapartofsomecampaigns,

wheretheysayyou’regoingtogetsomethingandyoudon’t,and

there’sjustnocommunication.That’sanotherimportantthing

youhavetorealizethatcomesalongwiththesecrowdfunding

campaigns.There’sgoingtobeacrowdthere,andthey’regoingto

wonderwheretheirstuffis.Anotherthingthatcomestomind...Isit

...Didyoudoliket-shirtsoranythingforpledgerewardsorno?




21

John: Ididnotdothat.

Pat: Iknowalotofpeoplewhohave,andhavehadtroublewithfulfilling

evenjustt-shirts.Ithinkalotofpeoplesay,“Ohwellyouknowwe’ll

justputat-shirtinthispledgelevelbecauseit’seasy,”butwhen

youthinkaboutit,it’sactuallynotthateasy,becauseyoustillhave

togetthet-shirtsdesigned,thenthere’sallthedifferentsizes,and

it’sjust...IguessthebiglessonherethatJLDistalkingabout,and

thatIwanttomentionalso,isyoujustdon’twanttothrowrandom

stuffinthere.Youwanttomakeitrelevant,andyourswerevery

relevantandlucky,forthekindofproductyouhad,youalsohad

somepledgelevelswithjustdigitalkindsofdownloads,whichnot

everybodyhasaccessto,butyouwereverysmartwithit,andI

thinkyouguystookagreatapproach,andsoI’mveryhappytosee

that.Youwerequicktofulfillalso,whichisawesome.

John: ThanksPat.

Pat: Yeah.Absolutely.Whatweresomeofthebigkindofunknowns,or

mistakesthatyoumade,orthingsthatyouweren’texpecting?

John: Here’sabigmistakethatImade,anditcomesallthewayattheend

oftheKickstartercampaign.WedidthisgreatBlab.Itwasafour-

hourliveBlabwherewegothundred,Ithinkweevenactuallybroke

athousandtotalviewersonthisblab,whileweweregoingover

thesefourhours.Wewouldhavepeoplecomeonandwewould

say,“Hey.I’maskingquestionsaboutgoalsaboutanything,”likean

openQandA,let’shangout.Iwasbringingpeopleinandtalking

abouttheirpurchaseoftheFreedomJournal,oranyquestionsthey

hadsoIcouldremovebarriers,andwedidsomanysalesinthat

lastfourhours.Infact,oneofmydaywithJLDsales,$10,000,came

onthatliveBlab.

ThatwasahugewinthatisnotmyhugestfailurethatI’maboutto

gettoinasecondhere,butthat’ssomethingtodefinitelydoguys.

HavealiveBlaboraHangout,ordosomethingwhereyou’rethere

answeringquestions,removingcomplaints,becausepeoplemight

justhavethisonetinybarrierthat’sholdingthemback.Likethey




22

mightsay,“OhcanyoushiptoEurope,”andI’mlike,“Wellofcourse

Ican.”Yeah.Okay.I’mgoingtobuyten.Iwaslike,“Sweet.”

Liketheyjustdidn’tknowthat.Maybeitwasonourpage,butwe

didn’tmakeitclearenough,sojusthavingtheseliveQandAswere

sohuge.Removingbarriers,andjustgettingthemomentumgoing,

andmebeingabletothankpeopleandknowingthatIwasgoingto

shoutthemoutiftheyactuallybought,andIsawthepledgecome

through,likeitwasjustareallycoolexperience.Thatwasabigwin,

butthenwehadthisbig20secondcountdown.Kindofliketheball

dropping,andthentheKickstarterjustends,andit’sover,andit’sso

funnyhowliketherushcameinduringthoselast20seconds.How

peoplewereemailingmeandbeinglike,“John.Ijustmissedit.Oh

mygod.”I’mlike,“Wherewereyouthelast33days.Didyoureally

havetowaittilrightnow.”Whatcanyoudoforme?I’mlike,“Ihave

nocontroloverthis.”It’sKickstarter.Thedoor’sclosed.We’llletyou

knowwhenthefreedomjournal.comcomesupinthebeginningof

March.That’sallIcandoforyou.I’msorry.

OnethingthatIdidn’tknowiswhenthedoordoesshut,itactually

shutsfortheactualcampaignhostaswell.Whatalotofsmart

peopledid,whohadexperience,andagain,Iputalittlebitofblame

onmycampaignmanagerstherewhosupposedlyknewKickStarter

andshould’vebeenalertingmeaboutthis,butofcourse,Itakeall

thefullbruntoftheresponsibility,becausethat’swhatyouneedto

doasanentrepreneurmyfriends,buttherealityis,whenthedoor

slammedclosed,youcan’tadjustanythingonthatKickstarterpage.

Alotofthesmartpeoplehadrightbeforechangedtheirimageto,

heytheFreedomJournalKickstartercampaign’sover,butgotothe

freedomjournal.comandyoucanorderyourstoday.Youhavelike

thisbookmarkthatpeoplecanjustgotoandalwaysknow,“Ohit’s

notjustover,overforever,butnowIcangotothefreedomjournal.

comandjustitregular,”soit’slikethisamazingbookmarkthat’s

justthereforpeople,becausethere’speopleeverydayPat,that

aresearchingthroughthetoppublishingcampaigns,becausethey

wanttoseewhatthebestcampaignshavedone,andsothey’re

comingtomycampaigneverysingleday,andlike,“ohthat’s




23

actuallyaprettycoolproduct.”

ThisisbythewayonereasonwhyIloveKickstarterforthis

evergreentypeofthing.Ohthat’saprettycoolproductandit’s39

bucks.I’llgosnagonerightnow,butit’slike,“ohtheKickstarter

campaign’sover,”andIdidn’tgiveanyfollowoninformationthere.

Yougottogetanimageinsertedbeforethecampaignclosesthat

says,“HeythisKickstarterisovernow.VisitthisURL.Orderyours

today.”

Pat: Theimagewouldgointheplacewherevideoistypicallylocated.

John: Exactly.

Pat: Canyouevenchangethetextonthebodyofthecampaign?

John: Youcanonlydoupdatesatthispoint,soeverythingisfrozenintime

forever.

Pat: Iguesstheywanttopreservewhatthecampaignwasessentially,

whichmakessense,butyou’reright.Ifyou’resmartaboutit,and

youknowthiswasyourfirsttime,soIdon’tblameyou,butmaybeI

doblameyourcampaignmanagerswhohavedonethisbefore.

John: Igotalltheresponsibilityinmyshoes.

Pat: Yeah.Thatmakessense.That’sagreatlittletacticaltipforpeople.

John: That’shuge.

Pat: WhenyouwereresearchingKickstarter,again,kindofgoingbacka

littlebit,werethereanyreservationsaboutgoingthisroute?Were

thereanydoubts?Werethereanysortoftheimpostersyndrome

settingin,likeamIreallysomebodywhoismeanttodoabookon

goals,likeyou’renoteducatedingoalsetting,buthereyouare

actuallyliterallychangingpeopleslivesnow.Gothroughwhatwas

goingthroughyourheadbeforeyoulaunchedKickstarter,because

IknowalotofpeopleouttherearenowexcitedaboutKickstarter,

butasbothyouandIknow,sometimesthatexcitementturnsinto




24

doubtoncewestarttoputinthework,sowhatcanyoutellthose

peoplewhoareexcitedaboutKickstarter,butthenthosedoubts

startsettingin,likeIdon’tknowifIshoulddothisornot,orIdon’t

knowifit’sgoingtowork.Didyouexperiencethat,andwhatadvice

wouldyougivetothosepeople?

John: 100%,andI’mreallygladyoubroughtthatup,becausetheimposter

syndromewillalwayslivewithinusall.Idon’tcareifyouareRichard

Bransonallthewaydowntosomeentrepreneurwhojustlaunched

theirfirstthingever,itisgoingtobethere,becauseit’spartof

beingahumanbeing.Itwilllivethere,andno.Iwasnottraditionally

educatedingoalsetting.Iwasdefinitelyself-educated.Ispenta

tonoftime,energy,andeffortgettingmyselfeducatedingoals,and

habits,andallofthesethings.There’ssomegreatresourcesforthat

forsure,butIdidn’thaveaPhDingoals.HereIwassaying,hey.

Peoplearegoingtoputtheirtrustinmeinthisbook,toaccomplish

theirbiggoalsthatcouldchangetheirminds,andifscrewitup,I

meanwhatdoesthatsayaboutme,aboutmybusiness,aboutwhat

Istandfor.

Therewasalotoffearthatwasgoinginthere.Therewasalotof

trepidationanddoubts.WhereIwassaying,“ManIknowthatFire

nation’shereandthey’retellingmethattheywantit,butdothey

really.ImeanI’mgoingtogooutthere,andit’sgoingtobepublic,”I

meanagain,oneofthebeautiesofKickstarteristhatit’spublic,and

that’swhatIwanted,becauseit’sgoingtoshowthenumbers,and

it’sgoingtoshowthebackers,butit’salsogoingtoshowzeroes

ifyougetcrickets,andthatisterrifying,becauseI’vehadalotof

successwithEOFire,andI’vegonefromstrength,tostrength,to

strength,withmanyfailuresmixedinthereforsure,whichwelove

talkingaboutontheincomereports,butitreallyhasbeenapretty

straightlineup.Isthisgoingtobejustsomethingthatwipesthat

allaway?ThelastthingthatpeoplerememberthatI’vedoneisthis

Kickstartercampaignthatjustflops.

Thereisallofthesefears.Nomatterhowmanypeoplelisten

toEOFire.Nomatterhowmanypeopleweresigneduptothe

KickstarteremailcampaignthatIsetup.Iwasstilllike,“Man.Isthis




25

goingtowork?”Iwassonervous.IcanstillrememberIwokeupat

3:30AMbecauseIwasonthePacificCoast,andIwantedtolaunch

usat7AMintheeastcoast,soIwaslikeabouttopresstheclick

button,andI’mjustshaking,andIclickedit.Thenitwaslikelive.

Youarelive,andIwaslikeuhoh,andthenIjustrememberlooking

atthescreen,andIwaslikeisanybodygoingtoknow.Isanybody

goingtocare?Thenthatfirstsalecameinfor$17.Somebody

boughtthe100pagepdf,andIwaslike,andsoitbegins.

Pat: Andsoitbegins.Nice,nice.That’sawesome.Canyoutakeus

through,okaynowthatthecampaign’slaunched.Youclickedthat

button.You’relive.Whenwerethesalescominginalot,andwhen

therethosekindoflikedullmomentswhereyou’relikeuhoh,

maybeit’sdone.

John: Yeah,sogreatquestion.Thisisgoingbacktotheanalyticsthat

Kickstarterprovides,whichbythewayarekiller.Idon’tknowhow

goodtheywerebackinthedaywhentheylaunched,buttheyhave

definitelyfocusedonthisoverthelastnumberofyears,because

yougetkilleranalytics.Youknowwhereyou’retraffic’scoming

from.Youknowhowmanysalesarehappeningperday.Youknow

thedollaramountsperday.Itactuallygivesyouatrendaboutwhat

theythinkyou’regoingtocloseat.It’sincredibletheseanalytics

thatyouget.It’salmosttooincrediblebecauseit’slikesomuchfun

tojustkeephittingrefreshandtoseetheanalyticsadjust.You’re

like,“Ohmygod.AmIgoingtodoanythingelsefor33days.”

Thatwassomuchfuntoseejustthenumberscomeinandto

reallyfocusontheanalytics,andtosay,“Hey.Whataregoingto

betheleversthatIcankindofpushtoamplifythesethingsup,

andwhataregoingtobethethingsthatjustaren’tworkingthat

Ithoughtmightwork.”ThereweresomethingsthatIreallywas

kindofbankingonthatweregoingtoworkthatjustdidn’t.Wecan

definitelytalkaboutsomeofthosethings,butPat,whatwasyour

specificquestionagain?

Pat: Thequestionwasabout,okay,likewhenwerethebigrushesof

salesandthenlikethedullmoments?




26

John: Yes.Totally.Thebig,bigrushatthebeginning.Wedid$25,000in

thefirstthreehours,andI’llneverforgetthatbecausethatwasour

firstpledgelevel.Isaidthefirst$25,000thatwehavecomein,I

amwritingachecktoPencilsofPromisefor$25,000onbehalfof

thebackers.Thatfirst25kisgoingstraighttoPencilsofPromiseto

buildaschoolindevelopingcountries.Thatwasahugemilestone,

andthefirstdaywasmassive.Wealmostgotto$100,000byhour

48.Thisbigrushcame,andtheneverybodythatwasthere,your

biggestfans,theyrushinthefirst48hours,thenyouliterallygointo

thisnicelittleplateau.

Idosaynicelittleplateaubecauseforsomepeopleit’snotnice.It

goesdowntonearzero,butbecauseofthepodcastinterviewson

EOFire,becauseofmyguestpodcasting,somethingelseIhaven’t

mentionedyet,butIloveemails.Pat,youloveemails.Iknowyou’re

abigfanofConvertKitandthey’reamazing,Iwasdoinganemail

everysingledaytomyemaillist.NotjustpumpingtheFreedom

Journal.Itwouldby95%ofjustgreatkillercontent.600to800

wordsofkillercontentononetopic.ThenattheendI’dsay,“Hey

bytheway.TheFreedomJournalcampaignishappening.Click

heretocheckitout.”For33daysIwouldhavetheemailsgoout,so

becauseofthat,wedefinitelyhitavalley,butitwasanicevalley.

Wewerestillgetting100salesaday,200backersday.Athousand,

twothousand,threethousanddollarswerecomingin,likeit’sthis

nicesteadyvalley.Thenattheendwereallyrampedthingsup.We

rampedupourFacebookads,whichwassomethingelsethatwe

didreallyeffectivelymarketingwise.WedidsomekillerFacebook

andInstagramads,andthenyou’dseethesurgestartagain.It’s

reallylikethisbellcurvethatjuststartsuphigh,goesdown,levels

off.Whatcanyoudoduringthatvalleytokeepthingsgoing,andall

thethingsthatImentioned,plusotherthings,werethingsthatwe

weredoingeverysingleday.TheliveBlabs.TheHangouts.Wedid

multipleofthose,andthenthesurgecameattheend.Itwasreally

thisbigUthatwasshapedup,andthat’swhereyoureallyhaveto

focusyourenergyandjustsay,“Hey.Iknowthere’sgoingtobea

valley.I’mnotgoingtogiveup.I’mgoingtokeeppushinghard,and

I’mgoinggetallthewaytothefinishline.”




27

Pat: It’sdefinitelynotalaunchandjustkindofasetandforgetittypeof

thing.

John: No,no.EverydayIwaspoundingthedoors.Boom.Boom.Boom.

Pat: Awesome.ManJLD.Thishasbeenafunridetohearaboutthis

wholejourney.Iknowthat...IreadthatpostwithKate,butitwas

nicetohearitfromyourvoiceandjusthearthewholeprogess,

andsomeofthestruggles,andalotofthewinsobviously.Iwant

tothankyouforcomingonandsharingtheFreedomJournaland

it’sjourneywithus,andit’sdefinitelynotover,becausewhatare

youdoingnowtokindofmarkettheFreedomJournalnowthatthe

KickStartercampaign’sdone?

John: RightnowwearejustlivingandbreathingtheFreedomJournal

becauseit’ssomethingthatwelove.Weareseeingincredible

resultsformpeoplethataregettingclosetotheir100daysalready.

It’sinsanethatpeoplehavealreadygottentheirjournalandare

nowalmostattheend,andthey’relike,wheredoIordermynext

one.I’mlike,“Yes.Youwantanotherone.Hitthatnextbiggoal.I

loveit.”AnotherreasonwhyIlikethestrategic100days,andso

we’remarketingitinsomereallygreatways.

Numberone,goingbacktomypodcast,ifyougotoEOFire,you’re

goingtohearintheintroandtheoutro,there’sgoingtobeacall

toactionfortheFreedomJournal.Noteverysingleday.Once

everyfiveorsixdays,becauseagainIhaveadailypodcast,so

that’sspacedoutprettygood,sothat’shuge.Somethingelsethat

we’redoingreally,reallyeffectivelyiswe’rebringinginanaffiliate

program.We’reusingagreatprogramcalledGetAmbassador,and

itjustallowspeopletocomeinandbecomeaffiliates.Nowwe’re

onlygoingtobehavingasetofVIPaffiliatesforthatofcourse,but

whenwesetthatup,it’llprobablybelikeinmid-summertothefall.

I’mgoingtoapproachpeoplethatreallyfeelliketheyhavevalue

withtheFreedomJournalandsay,“Hey.Ifyouwanttomakethis

partofyourmarketingplan,ifyouthinkthatyouhaveclients,or

customers,orfans,orfollowersthatitwouldmakesenseforthem

toaccomplishtheirnumberonegoal,I’dloveyouonboardforthis.”




28

Nowofcourseit’saphysicalproduct.There’salotofcostupfront.

Wecandolikeyourtraditionalproduct50,50split,butwhenwe

getthisaffiliateprogramsetup,it’sgoingtobesomethingthat

we’rereallygoingtobeabletohavesomekeypartnersintokeep

buildingthatup,andthat’ssomethingthatwe’rereallylooking

forwardtogettingimplementedassoonaspossibleforsure.

Pat: Nice.

John: Emails.Emailsaresoimportant.Everytimewesendoutanemail,

I’mgivingsomecalltoaction.WhereIsay,“Heyguys,bytheway.

Todayisthedaywhereyoucouldbestartingtoaccomplishyour

numbergoalifyouhaven’talready,”andit’snotthefirstthingthat’s

onanemail,orthemiddle,it’sinaverygentlenudgereminder

thathavereadtheentirepieceofcontentandgottensomegreat

value,andnowthey’removingforward.We’redoingthesamething

onsocialmedia.Reallyinterspersingit.Justmakingitpartofour

overallcontentmarketingplan,andPat,you’rethemasterofthis.

Yournewsitelaunched,andit’sjustbeautiful.

Pat: Thankyou.

John: Onhowyouarenowinterspersingthingsthatgeneraterevenue

foryou.Providevaluetoyourcustomers,toyourfollowers,toyour

listeners,toyourblogreaders,onaveryvalue-firstbasis.

Pat: Yeah.Awesome.Manitsoundslikeit’sjustgettingstartedactually,

soeventhough...Imeanthat’sreallywhatKickstarter’sallabout.

Justlaunchingwithasplash,butthen...

John: Validating.

Pat: Validating,andyou’redoingtherightthingstokeepitgoingIthink.

Theaffiliatethingespecially.Idon’tseealotofKickstarterpeople

doingaffiliates,soIthinkthat’scool.I’veusedget...

John: LetmekindofjumpinhererealquickPat,becausethere’sreally

somethinginterestingthatwhileyou’redoingyourKickstarter




29

campaign,there’sagreatcompanycalledKickbooster,thatallows

you,withjustacoupleclicksofthebutton,yousetupanaccount,

andnowyoucanshareaffiliatelinkswithanybodythatyouwantto

actuallypromoteyourwhateverKickstarterproductthatyouhave.

YoucangetateamofaffiliatesnowduringKickstarter.

Pat: Noway.

John: It’ssomethingthatIlearnedaboutalittlelateunfortunately,but

Ihadthecompanyreachouttome.Iactuallyinterviewedtheir

founder,andtheymakeitsosimple.Youcandoitintra-campaign

now.Kickbooster.

Pat: Kickbooster,andyoucanactuallyhavethemtrackthesalesand

wherethey’recomingfrom?

John: Totally,andit’saflat10%iswhattheydo.

Pat: Wow.There’salotofnewbusinessescomingaboutrelatedto

KickStarter,Indiegogo.Thisisreallycool.AgainJohn,thankyou

somuch.Wherecanpeople,onceagain,goandcheckoutthe

FreedomJournal.ObviouslytheycangotoEofire.comtogetyour

greatcontent,andyou’restillpodcasting7daysaweekanddoing

someamazingstuffthere,butwherecantheygogettheFreedom

Journal?

John: FortheFreedomJournalallthemagichappensat

thefreedomjournal.com.Headonoverthere.We’vegotakiller

video.TheonethatCalebcreated.It’swaitingthere.Somegreat

detailsonthatpageaboutexactlywhatyouget,becauseyoustill

getthecompletedigitalpackwhenyoubuytheFreedomJournal.

Yougettheapp,yougetthepdf,yougettheaudiobook,youget

alotofgreatthingsbundledinwiththeFreedomJournal.Wehave

differentpackslikethe1,2,5,10pack,etcetera.Pluswereallygo

intodetailsaboutourpartnershipwithPencilsofPromise,whichis

nearanddeartomyheart,andIknowyoursaswellPat.Infact,I’m

lookingforwardtoseeingatthegalathat’scomingupinOctoberin

NewYorkCity.It’llbeablast.




30

Pat: Itwill.

John: Yeah.We’vealreadybuiltthreeschoolsthroughPencilsofPromise,

whichissoexcitingthat,again,weareallowingpeopletogive

themselvesthegiftofaccomplishingtheirnumberonegoalin100

days,andthengivethegiftsimultaneouslyofeducationtothose

lessfortunate,becauseifthere’ssomethingI’mpassionateabout

it’showeducationcanreallyjustbethatspringboardforanybody

anywhere,iftheycanjustgetthat.That’swheretheycango.

Thefreedomjournal.com.

Pat,ofcourse,I’mahugeFlynnaticmyself.IloveSPInationon

everysinglelevel,soIdoaprettykilleropportunityforyour

listenersthatIreallythinkthey’regoingtotakeabiteoutof,

becauseit’sprettycool,becauseyoumentionedearlierthatwe

havethisgreatFacebookgroupthat’sover5,000peoplethatare

apartofit.It’ssoactive.Peopletakingpictures,andvideos,and

hittingtheir10daysprints,andtheirquarterlyreviews,andit’sjust

somuchfuninthere.

Wehadthisthingthatkindofjustwentviralinthegrouptheother

daywhichwas,whatisyourdefinitionoffreedom,becauseweall

havedifferentdefinitions,rightfullyso,ofwhatfreedomis,andI

thinkifwecanreallydefinewhatoursenseoffreedomis,it’sgoing

helpus,numberone,settherightgoalstogetthere,butnumber

two,it’sjustgoingtogiveusthatcompassinlifewhichissocritical.

IamgoingtobecommittedthisFlynnatics,ifyou’relistening,Iam

goingtobegiving10hardcoversofWillItFly,and10hardcoversof

theFreedomJournaltopeoplewhodothefollowing.Gointothe

commentssectionofthispodcast,andgiveusyourdefinitionof

freedom.Keepitto30wordsorless,becauseIwantpeopletobe

concise.It’shardertobeconcise,soit’llreallymakeyouthink,so

keepitto30wordsorless.Givemeyourbestdefinitionoffreedom.

Thiswouldbeagreatexerciseforyoutoo,believeme.Ifyoucan

reallyjustdefinewhatfreedomisforyou,dothat.I’mgoingtobe

alloverthecomments,andPat,whenisthisgoingtobegoinglive

about?




31

Pat: ThiswillbegoingliveinJuly.

John: Okay.Let’ssaybySeptember1st,sogetinthere.Ifyou’rehearing

thisbeforeSeptember1st2016,getinthecomments.Giveus

yourbestdefinitionoffreedom.I’mgoingtobeinthere.I’llbe

respondingtoyou.Absolutely.We’llhaveagreatconversation

inthecomments,andI’mgoingtochoose10ofthegreatest

responsesthatIseefit,andI’mgoingtomailyou,again,ahard

copyofWillItFly,andahardcopyoftheFreedomJournaltoyour

door.

Thisisforinternationalpeople,sonomatterwhereyouarein

theworld,thisappliestoyou.IwillsendittoSiberia,ifyou’rethe

winner,andit’sjustgoingtobegreatforyoutodefinefreedom,

andagain,I’llbealloverthose.We’llchoose10andwe’llannounce

itonthatsamecommentsection,andforsure,andonelastthing,

becausethere’sonly10thatIcanactuallyphysicallymailtopeople

thatwe’redoingforthis,Ialsodowanttooffer,andthisisgoingto

belimitedtime,butcompletelyfreeshippingforthosepeoplewho

liveintheUSA.

IwishIcoulddoitforeverybodyaroundtheworld,butshippingis

insanity,sowe’regoingtodofreeshippingforthoseUSAresidents.

JustusethepromocodeSPI,allcaps,atcheckout,andyou’llget

freeshippingtoyourdoorstep.Forthoseinternationalpeople,

justshootmeanemail,andI’llgiveyouadifferentpromocodefor

adiscount,andwe’llmakeithappen,andsoit’llhelpdeflatethe

costs,butthat’sSPI,allcaps.Getinthere.

Pat: Awesome.ThanksfordoingthatJohn.Iappreciatethat,andbefore

Iletyougo,canyoudefinewhatfreedomisinyourterms?

John: Theabilitytowakeupeverymorning,lookatmycalendar,andsay,

“EverysinglethingthatI’veputinthatcalendarwaschoiceofmine.

Includingthisconversation.”

Pat: Nice.ThanksJLD.Iappreciateit.Weappreciateyou,anda

greatjobontheKickstartercampaign.Ilookforwardtohearing




32

everybody’sdefinitionoffreedom.I’llmentiontheshownoteslink,

andthelinkthatyoucangototocommentrightafterIhangupwith

JLDhere,butJohn,thankyousomuchforyourtime.Weappreciate

you.

John: Pat.Yourockbrother.

Pat: Allright.IhopeyouenjoyedthatinterviewwithJohnLeeDumas

fromEntrepreneuronFire,andofcourseThefreedomjournal.com,

andforthoseofyouintheUSwhowanttogetfreeshippingon

yourFreedomJournal,justgotothethefreedomjournal.comand

usethecodeSPItowipeouttheshippingcost,andlikeJohnsaid,

ifyou’reinternational,justheadonovertohiswebsiteEofire.com,

andsendhimanemail,orshoothimamessage,andhewillbeable

togiveyouadifferentpromocodetohelpoutwiththecost.Of

coursethisislimitedtimeonly.Idon’tknowexactlyhowlongthat’ll

be,butassoonasyouhearthis,jumpontothewebsiteattheshow

notes,andwe’llhaveinformationthere.

Justgoaheadandgotosmartpassiveincome.com/session223.

Again,that’ssmartpassiveincome.com/session223.Ofcourseifyou

trythediscountcodesanditdoesn’twork,perhapsthepromotion

hasended,butanyway,thankyousomuchJohnforcomingon.

Asalways,weappreciateyou,andyourfire,andyoursupport,and

justalloftheexperimentationthatyoudo,andthewaythatyou

sharewhatitisthatyou’velearned.Imeanthat’swhatIdo.That’s

whyyouandI,andwe’regreatfriends,andthat’spartlyreasonwhy.

Also,becauseyouhavecuterosycheeks.Notreally.That’sweird.

ShouldIleaveitinthere.YeahI’llleaveitinthere.NoI’mgoingto

takeitout.NoI’mgoingtoleaveitin.Okay.Anyway.Guysthank

yousomuchforyourtimeandattentiontoday.Iappreciateit.Head

onovertotheblogsmartpassiveincome.com.Ifyouhaven’tbeen

thereinawhile,newwebsitedesign.Actually,newthingsarebeing

addedallthetime,andyeah.

Justkeepcomingback,andIlookforwardtoservingyounext

week.WehaveagreatepisodewithamannamedMarkBarnes

whotalksabouthowtohackteaching,becausealotofus,mostof




33

us,teachonline.Wellhowdowehackthat?Howdowereallyget

ourstudentstosucceed?Wellwe’regoingtotalkallaboutthat,and

education,andgettingresultswithMarkBarnesnextweek,butuntil

then,keeppushingforward,keepmovingtheneedle,andkeep

workingononethingatatime,becausethat’showyougetthere.

That’showyougetthereguys.Onethingatatime,sowhat’syour

nextthing?Ifyoudon’tknowwhatthatis,wellfigurethatoutbefore

youdoanythingelse.Thankssomuch.Iappreciateyou,andI’llsee

younextweek.Bye.

Announcer: ThanksforlisteningtotheSmartPassiveIncomePodcastatwww.

smartpassiveincome.com.




34

ReSouRceS: EOFire.com

TheFreedomJournal.com

Kickstarter

“HowtoCrushKickstarter”

Prouduct

Shipwire

Shopify

CalebWojcik

BrandonT.Adams’Keys to the Crowd

ClayHebert

Ambassador

Kickbooster

FiveMinuteJournal

PencilsofPromise

Will It Fly?




http://www.eofire.com/

http://thefreedomjournal.com

http://kickstarter.com

http://www.eofire.com/kickstarter

http://www.prouduct.com/

https://www.shipwire.com

http://shopify.com

http://www.calebwojcik.com/

http://keystothecrowd.com

http://clayhebert.com/

https://www.getambassador.com/

https://kickbooster.me

http://www.fiveminutejournal.com/

http://pencilsofpromise.org

http://willitflybook.com


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