should women really be silent in church? question 3

Should women really be silent in church?

Question 3

The C of E have been accepting female deacons since 1981 and ordaining female priests since 1994 … the debate continues on female Bishops

Women in Newfrontiers churches lead worship, baptise new Christians, hand round communion, pray publicly, prophesy, teach, train counsellors, preach, run Alpha, steward, heal the sick, cast out demons, witness in the streets, administrate conferences…in fact everything men can do, so do they! But because we see in the Bible that overall responsibility both in the church and in the home has been designated by God to men, we do not have women elders

Wendy Virgo

Paul emphatically commanded that women should not teach or have authority over men in the church

Mark Driscoll

Men and women are equal in ALL areas of life, ministry and marriage

Godswordtowomen.org

‘Ministers of religion’ remains the only job title where it remains lawful to discriminate on grounds of gender

BBC news website

The beginning …

The beginning … Genesis 1

“And God said … … and it was good.”

Then God said ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness …… So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female, he created them.

(Genesis 1:26, 27 NIV)


Men and women BOTH created by God


Men and women BOTH carry the image of God


To gain a complete ‘echo’ of God’s image you have to consider men AND women

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

(Genesis 1:28 NIV)


The command to rule over the earth is given to men and women TOGETHER

WHY did God make woman?

The Lord God said, ‘It is not good for the man to be

alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.’ …

So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with

flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

The man said ‘This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man.

(Genesis 2: 18; 21-23 NIV)


Adam needed a helper


Adam was different from the animals etc


He needed a helper ‘on his level’ (ie created in God’s image)

‘It is not good for the man to be alone ...”(Genesis 2:18 NIV)

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

(Genesis 1:28 NIV)


Adam needed some help with increasing in number!

About Adam’s ‘helper’

‘Helper’ wasn’t an inferior role


15/19 uses of the word ‘helper’ in the OT apply to God. 3 apply to men.

Your face Lord I will seek … for you have been my helper

(Psalm 27:9 NIV)

The Lord is with me; he is my helper(Psalm 118:7 NIV)


Woman was a ‘helper suitable for him’


Original Hebrew suggests ‘corresponding to him’


Woman ‘complements’ man

Complement (defn): (noun) a thing that completes or brings to perfection(verb) add to something in a way that enhances or improves it; make perfect

To the woman he said, …

Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you.

(Genesis 3:16 NIV)

To the woman he said, …Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you.

(Genesis 3:16 NIV)

You’ll want to please your husband but he’ll lord it over you

(The Msg)

The sentence seems straightforward. Eve will long for intimacy with her husband but he will not reciprocate but rather will push her away

and become domineering over her… it is here that the element of hierarchy and headship comes into play for the first time, as part of the consequence of the fall, rather than being part of God’s original intention at creation.

(Derek and Dianne Tidball, The message of women)

The status of women in Palestine during

the time of Jesus was undoubtedly that of inferiors … women were not allowed to study the Scriptures. One first century Rabbi,

Elizer, put the point sharply: ‘Rather should the words of the Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman’

Danielle Strickland. The Liberating Truth – how Jesus empowers women

Both the OLD and NEW testaments contain numerous examples of strong male AND female leaders!

Women should remain silent in the churches.

They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their

husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

(1 Corinthians 14:34-35 NIV)

I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. I also

want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves,

not with elaborate hairstyles, or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but

with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God …

(1 Timothy 2:8-10 NIV)

… A woman should learn in quietness and full

submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one decieved; it was the woman who was decieved and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing – if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Does context matter?

Women should remain silent in the churches.

They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their

husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


Intelligibility in worship…

(1 Corinthians 14 NIV)

Anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the spirit … if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy? …

(1 Corinthians 14:2; 6 NIV)

Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue how will anyone know what you are saying? … Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church. For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say… otherwise how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an enquirer, say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving since they do not know what you are saying?

(1 Corinthians 14:9; 12; 13; 16 NIV)

2 or 3 prophets should speak and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

(1 Corinthians 14:29-30 NIV )

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.

(Luke 9:36 NIV)

God is not a God of disorder but of peace – as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people...

… Everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

(1 Corinthians 14:33; 40 NIV )

In a normal middle eastern cultural setting, meeting places were set out with men on one side and women on the other… The women who began hearing the scriptures for the first time would have had many questions for the men who had been taught about them but because of the seating arrangements, this meant shouting across the room.

Bishop Graham Cray. Women in leadership

In its context it seems Paul is asking women to remain silent if their interventions are disruptive, just as he asked prophets and tongue speakers to keep quiet a few verses earlier.

(Derek & Dianne Tidball, The Message of Women)

To Timothy, my true son in the faith…

… As I urged you when I went into Macedonia,

stay there in Ephesus(1 Timothy 1:2; 3-4 NIV)

To Timothy, my true son in the faith…

… As I urged you when I went into Macedonia,

stay there in Ephesus so that you may

command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote

themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work.

(1 Timothy 1:2; 3-4 NIV)

About Ephesus at that time …


- New Roman Women

“Changes in Roman law for the purpose of increasing economic justice for wives had unpredicted consequences.”

Steve Robbins. Paul and the new roman women

Caesar Augustus passed laws against the ‘new roman woman’ seeking young sexual partners … He legislated moral conduct: financial disincentives for remaining single, career advantages for getting married and having children … and dress codes for how respectable women were to dress in contrast to adulterers, high class prostitutes and others.

Bruce Winter. Roman wives, Roman widows


- New Roman Women

Ladette (defn): - Young women who behave in a boisterously assertive or crude manner and engage in heavy drinking sessions(Oxford university press 2001)


- New Roman Women“Roman jurisprudence distinguished between the traditional modest wife and the new roman woman by means of appearance … for women in first century Roman Empire, you were what you wore” Steve Robbins. Paul and the new roman women at Ephesus.

I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You yourself know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions.

(Acts 20: 33-34 NIV)

I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. I also

want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves,

not with elaborate hairstyles, or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God …


The ‘new roman women’ could be both brash and bold. In addition these women could often be outspoken, even aggressive in public settings.

Steve Robbins – ‘Paul and the new women at Ephesus’


- Worship of Artemis


- Worship of ArtemisIn the Artemis cult the female was exalted and considered superior to the male … among the extreme views were that women were responsible for the creation of men … teaching also encouraged an aversion to childbearingDerek and Dianne Tidball The message of women

… A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or

to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one decieved; it was the woman who was decieved and

became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing – if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Paul stayed on at Corinth for some time. Then he left … and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila.

They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila.

(Acts 18:18 NIV)

To Timothy, my true son in the faith… … As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work.

(1 Timothy 1:2; 3-4 NIV)

As for younger widows… they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to

house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busy bodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to. I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children …

(1 Timothy 5:11;13 NIV)

They are the kind who worm their way into

homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.


… A woman should learn in quietness and full

submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.


… A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.


… A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing – if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


If anyone wants to provide leadership in the

church – good! But there are preconditions ...

(1 Timothy 3:1 The Msg)

… A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a

sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing – if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Women saved through childbearing?!


NOT anything to do with being saved through having children!


- Birth of the child – Jesus?


- Typological? Adam = Jesus, Eve = church


Might it not mean that women need not fear that they will miss out on God’s salvation if they fulfil their role as Mothers, bearing and nurturing children?

Derek and Dianne Tidball. The message of women

In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and non Jew, slave and free, male and

female. Among us you are all equal.(Galatians 3:28 The Msg)

What is at stake is not the role of women as

much as the definition of the church as authentic biblical community… Jesus put a premium on the fact that the world would recognize the disciples because of the way they treated each other – with love. … the kind of love that knew no greek or Jew, slave or free, male or female. The kind of love that was a deliberate attack on the prevalent culture which insisted that a person’s value was based on usefulness, position and cultural norms.

Danielle Strickland. The liberating truth, how Jesus empowers women

Some people don’t ever feel aware of their gender in relation to their calling, but I can say that I’ve felt extremely aware of it in all the twelve years I have been in ministry. Twice I’ve been on the staff of churches that firmly believed women should not be allowed to

preach or teach. Both places made me feel second class – as if I couldn’t be taken as

seriously as men – like somehow I’d misheard that God was calling me to

communicate His word. It took a lot of my confidence away …

Vicky Beeching

should women really be silent in church? question 3

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