ROYAL COMMISSION INTO WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN ANY CORRUPT OR CRIMINAL CONDUCT BY WESTERN AUSTRALIAN POLICE OFFICERS COMMISSIONER: G.A. Kennedy AO QC Held at Perth on the 8th day of April, 2003 Counsel Assisting Mr P. Hastings QC Copyright in this document is reserved to the Crown in right of the State of Western Australia. Reproduction of this document (or part thereof, in any format) except with the prior written consent of the Attorney General is prohibited. .08/04/2003 9386

B1/1 POLICE AT 9.58 AM HEARING COMMENCED: COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Hastings? MR O'SULLIVAN: Sir, perhaps before my learned friend begins, may I have leave, please, to appear on behalf of (...name suppressed...), who I understand may be called today at some point. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: There's no problem with that, Commissioner. I'm not sure that - - COMMISSIONER: Yes. That leave is granted, Mr O'Sullivan. MR HASTINGS: I'm not sure that he'll be called today. MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Well, whether he's called today or tomorrow the problem is still there. He would also seek, sir, a suppression of his name. He wrote a note to one of the Commission officers. I don't know whether that's found its way to you. It relates to his particular special interest in operations. Perhaps I could hand you a copy if you don't have it. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR O'SULLIVAN: Otherwise, from just a quick reading this morning in the time I've had of your reasons in relation to other suppression orders, he comes to some extent within that. In a sense, while he's not in that area at the moment, that is his area of specialisation. COMMISSIONER: And he has been in that area. MR O'SULLIVAN: He has been, yes. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: I'm not sure that I've seen that, Commissioner. Might I - - MR O'SULLIVAN: And obviously you can review it after the evidence, but the suggestion is that he's being called because he was working at one time with someone of interest otherwise. MR HASTINGS: Commissioner, could that matter be left until we get close to the point at which (...name suppressed...) will be called, which won't be immediately; nor will he be mentioned before he's called again. .08/04/2003 9387

B1/1 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Well, if we confine this - - COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, if that could be done and - - MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Thank you, sir. COMMISSIONER: - - on that basis it will be preferred. MR HASTINGS: Commissioner, can I catch up with some housekeeping from yesterday? COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: There are a considerable number of documents that I propose to tender. May we adopt the technique that I will read out the documents concerned and their barcodes - - COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: - - and rather than have you go through the chore of repeating those details, you could then allocate the exhibit appropriate to the document that I've just identified. COMMISSIONER: That would be very satisfactory. MR HASTINGS: I don't think we have the same list. The documents that I propose to tender relate to the theft of the money, which was the subject of evidence yesterday, from the Maylands Mini-Storage, and some of them refer to the other unit which was leased as T4 described by the man who was supplying him with the ecstasy tablets. The name appears on a number of the documents, and I think mentioning it is unavoidable, so it seems that it may be appropriate, for various reasons, that you make a non-publication order in relation to references to that person, whose name is (...name suppressed...), so that as I tender each document we needn't deal with that aspect of it, but it will be covered by the general order that you make. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: I think it need only be an order in very general terms, Commissioner, that you direct that there be no publication of the name. COMMISSIONER: I simply direct that there be no publication of the name of the witness - - MR HASTINGS: He's not a witness, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: - - name of - - .08/04/2003 9388

B1/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: The person, (...name suppressed...). COMMISSIONER: - - (...name suppressed...). MR HASTINGS: Yes. With that, Commissioner, I then tender these documents. The first - - - .08/04/2003 9389

B2/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - these documents. The first is a lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J10, commencing 17 February 1999 and expiring 16 March 1999. The unedited version, which I ask be confidential, is barcoded D1025640. The public edited version is barcoded D1032574. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The first of those documents, being the confidential copy, will be exhibit 1343C. The public document will be exhibit 1343. EXHIBIT 1343C Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Confidential - Lease for (...name EXHIBIT 1343 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Edited version Lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J10, 17/2/99 to 16/3/99, barcode D1032574 MR HASTINGS: Thank you. I tender a lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J10, commencing 17 February 1999 and expiring 16 March 1999, which bears a stamp duty notation. The confidential version is barcoded D1025639 and the public edited version is barcoded D1032575. COMMISSIONER: The confidential version will be exhibit 1344C and the public version, 1344. EXHIBIT 1344C Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Confidential - Lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J10, bearing stamp duty notation, 17/2/99 to 16/3/99, barcode D1025639 EXHIBIT 1344 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Edited version Lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J20, bearing stamp duty notation, 17/2/99 to 16/3/99, barcode D1032575 MR HASTINGS: I tender an acknowledgment of terms of lease dated 17 February 1999, signed by (...name suppressed...). The unedited private version is barcoded D1025638 and the edited public version is barcoded D1032576. COMMISSIONER: The confidential version will be exhibit 1345C and the public version 1345. EXHIBIT 1345C Mr Hastings DATE 17.2.99 Confidential - Acknowledgment of term of lease signed by (...name suppressed...), barcode D1025638 .08/04/2003 9390

B2/2 POLICE EXHIBIT 1345 Mr Hastings DATE 17.2.99 Edited version Acknowledgment of term of lease signed by (...name suppressed...), barcode D1032576 MR HASTINGS: I tender a lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J10 commencing 29 September 1999 and expiring 28 October 1999. The private unedited version is barcoded D1025646 and the public edited version, barcoded D1032577. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The confidential version will be exhibit 1346C and the public version 1346. EXHIBIT 1346C Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Confidential - Lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J10, 29/9/99 to 28/10/99, barcode D1025646 EXHIBIT 1346 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Edited version Lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J10, 29/9/99 to 28/10/99, barcode D1032577 MR HASTINGS: I tender the stamp duty paid noted copy of the lease for (...name suppressed...) of unit J10 commencing 29 September 1999 and expiring 28 October 1999. The private unedited version is barcoded D1025645 and the edited public version barcoded D1032578. COMMISSIONER: The private version will be exhibit 1347C and the public version, 1347. EXHIBIT 1347C Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Confidential - Stamp duty paid noted copy of lease for (...name suppressed...), unit J10, 29/9/99 to 28/10/99, barcode D1025645 EXHIBIT 1347 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Edited version Stamp duty paid noted copy of lease for (...name suppressed...), unit J10, 29/9/99 to 28/10/99, barcode D1032578 MR HASTINGS: I tender the acknowledgment of terms of lease dated 29 September 1999 signed by (...name suppressed...). The confidential unedited version is barcoded D1025647 and the public edited version D1032579. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The confidential version will be exhibit 1348C and the public version 1348. EXHIBIT 1348C Mr Hastings DATE 29.9.99 Confidential - Acknowledgment of terms of lease signed by (...name suppressed...), barcode D1025647 .08/04/2003 9391

B2/2 POLICE EXHIBIT 1348 Mr Hastings DATE 29.9.99 Edited version Acknowledgment of terms of lease signed by (...name suppressed...), barcode D1032579 MR HASTINGS: I tender the (...name suppressed...) card account inquiry dated 1st January 1999 to 28 December 1999. The unedited confidential version is barcoded D1025635 and the public edited version D1032580. COMMISSIONER: The confidential version will be exhibit 1349C and the public version 1349. EXHIBIT 1349C Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Confidential - (...name suppressed...) card account inquiry dated 1/1/99 to 28/12/99, barcode D1025635 EXHIBIT 1349 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Edited version (...name suppressed...) card account inquiry dated 1/1/99 to 28/12/99, barcode D1032580 .08/04/2003 9392

B3/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: I tender the (...name suppressed...) card account inquiry dated 1st of March 1998 to 17 March 2001. The confidential unedited version is barcoded D1025642 and the edited public version D1042581. COMMISSIONER: The confidential version will be exhibit 1350C and the public version 1350. EXHIBIT 1350C Mr Hastings DATE 1.3.98 to Confidential - (...name suppressed...) card 17.3.01 account. Barcode D1025642. EXHIBIT 1350 Mr Hastings DATE 1.3.98 to Edited version (...name suppressed...) card 17.3.01 account. Barcode D1042581. MR HASTINGS: There are other documents which are relating to the use of the account, Commissioner, but I'm not sure that they add anything to the picture. So I'll move on to section 4 in the list. I tender the (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 270, dated 17 February 1999. The confidential unedited version is barcoded D1025637 and the public edited version D1032586. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The confidential version will be exhibit 1351C and the public version 1351. EXHIBIT 1351C Mr Hastings DATE 17.2.99 Confidential - (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 270. Barcode D1025637. EXHIBIT 1351 Mr Hastings DATE 17.2.99 Edited version (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 270. Barcode D1032586. MR HASTINGS: I tender the (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 80, dated 9 June 1999. The unedited confidential version is barcoded D1025636 and the edited public version D1032587. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The confidential version will be exhibit 1352C and the public version 1352. EXHIBIT 1352C Mr Hastings DATE 9.6.99 Confidential - (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 80. Barcode D1025636. EXHIBIT 1352 Mr Hastings DATE 9.6.99 Edited version (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 80. Barcode D1032587 .08/04/2003 9393

B3/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: I tender the (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 123 dated 29 September 1999. The unedited confidential version is barcoded D1025648 and the public edited version D1032588. COMMISSIONER: The confidential version will be exhibit 1353C and the public version 1353. EXHIBIT 1353C Mr Hastings DATE 29.9.99 Confidential - (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 123. Barcode D1025648. EXHIBIT 1353 Mr Hastings DATE 29.9.99 Edited version (...name suppressed...) user card access request for card number 123. Barcode D1032588. MR HASTINGS: I tender the access event history report for unit J10 bearing handwritten notes indicating that T2 wanted to know if any surveillance - - there was a surveillance video of access on 16 March 2000. The unedited confidential version is barcoded D1025632 and the public edited version D1032589. COMMISSIONER: The confidential version will be exhibit 1354C and the public version 1354. EXHIBIT 1354C Mr Hastings DATE 16.3.00 Confidential - Access event history report for unit J10. Barcode D1025632. EXHIBIT 1354 Mr Hastings DATE 16.3.00 Edited version Access event history report for unit J10. Barcode D1032589. MR HASTINGS: I tender some handwritten notes about the inquiries made by T2 to storage shed staff in relation to (...name suppressed...) and visits made by (...name suppressed...) to the office on the 16th of March 2000. The confidential unedited version is barcoded D1025643 and the public edited version D1032590. COMMISSIONER: The confidential version will be exhibit 1355C and the public version 1355. EXHIBIT 1355C Mr Hastings DATE 16.3.00 Confidential - Handwritten notes by T2 to storage shed staff. Barcode D1025643. EXHIBIT 1355 Mr Hastings DATE 16.3.00 Edited version Handwritten notes by T2 to storage shed staff. Barcode 1032590. .08/04/2003 9394

B3/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: I tender a unit layout sketch indicating the numbering and size of the units which is a public document barcoded D1025649. COMMISSIONER: The layout will be exhibit 1356. EXHIBIT 1356 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Unit layout sketch. MR HASTINGS: I tender a document which I showed yesterday to T1, which is a lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J52, commencing 25 November 1999 and expiring 24 December 1999, bearing a handwritten note that the person (...name suppressed...) did not have a driver's licence with him. Commissioner, that may be a public document. It's barcoded D1030317. COMMISSIONER: Yes. The lease will be exhibit 1357. EXHIBIT 1357 Mr Hastings DATE 25.11.99 to Lease agreement for 24.12.99 (...name suppressed...), unit J52. Barcode D1030317. .08/04/2003 9395

B4/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: I tender a further copy of that lease for (...name suppressed...) for unit J52 commencing 25 November 1999 and expiring 24 December 1999, bearing "Stamp Duty Paid" notation as well as a handwritten note made by storage unit staff indicating that the phone number given was either incomplete or incorrect. That too can be a public document. It's barcoded D1030318. COMMISSIONER: Yes, that will be exhibit 1358. EXHIBIT 1358 Mr Hastings DATE 25.11.99 Lease for unit J52 - barcode D1030318 MR HASTINGS: Again there are some other documents relevant to that unit, Commissioner, which I don't think we need to clutter the record with. I tender item 10, which is the reports on the subscriber checks for the number 0411 924629, indicating that the number did not exist. Those documents are barcoded D1031310, D1031434, D1030931, D1032543 and may be public exhibits. COMMISSIONER: Well, those documents will be together exhibit 1359. EXHIBIT 1359 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Item 10, subscriber check reports - barcode D1031310, D1031434, D1030931, D1032543 MR HASTINGS: I tender the subscriber check documents for the number (...suppressed...) , which are barcoded D1034053, D1032546 and D1025218, and ask that they be a confidential exhibit because they refer to information relating to T1. COMMISSIONER: Yes, those documents will together be exhibit 1360C. EXHIBIT 1360C Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Confidential - subscriber check reports - barcode D1034053, D1032546, D1025218 MR HASTINGS: I also tender checks for the address shown on the (...name suppressed...) lease, which was (...suppressed...) - that is showing the address did not exist - which is barcoded D1032542. That may be a public exhibit. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1061. EXHIBIT 1061 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Checks for address on lease - D1032542 MR HASTINGS: I also tender the licence checks for the .08/04/2003 9396

B4/4 POLICE driver's licence given on the (...name suppressed...) lease which was issued in 1976 but not in the name of (...name suppressed...). That is barcoded D1032544. That also may be a public exhibit. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1362. EXHIBIT 1062 Mr Hastings DATE (Unstated) Driver's licence check - barcode D1032544 MR HASTINGS: Now if I can move to the transcripts which I tendered yesterday, or which I played yesterday, rather, and tender them. There were three excerpts from a recorded conversation by a listening device on the 26th of November 2002. The first part is barcoded D1033185, if that can be a public exhibit, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: What number is that under? MR HASTINGS: That's number 13 on the list, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: Number 13. MR HASTINGS: It's D1033185. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, that will be exhibit 1363. EXHIBIT 1363 Mr Hastings DATE 26.11.02 Transcript of conversation - barcode D1033185 MR HASTINGS: The second part of the same listening device recording on the 26th of November 2002 is barcoded D1033186. That also may be a public exhibit. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1364. EXHIBIT 1364 Mr Hastings DATE 26.11.02 Transcript of conversation - barcode D1033186 MR HASTINGS: And the third part of the same recording on the 26th of November 2002 is barcoded D1033187. That also may be a public exhibit. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1365. EXHIBIT 1365 Mr Hastings DATE 26.11.02 Transcript of conversation - barcode D1033187 .08/04/2003 9397

B5/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: I also played yesterday part of a recording on the 15th of January 2003, transcript and video background of which is barcoded D1034428. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1366. EXHIBIT 1366 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Edited version Transcript and video background, barcode D1034428 MR HASTINGS: I tender the telephone intercept material that I played yesterday, which is later in the list of documents that you have, Commissioner. There is a second series which commence with page 1 of 8, headed, "Exhibit list - public hearing, Freeway Storage. COMMISSIONER: Yes. I have that. MR HASTINGS: On the second page, Commissioner, under the heading 15th of January 2003, I tender the text message, (...suppressed...) to (...suppressed...) at 1509 hours, the barcode of which is D1027570. That can be a public exhibit. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1367. EXHIBIT 1367 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message, (...suppressed...) to (...suppressed...) at 1509 hours, barcode D1027570 MR HASTINGS: Commissioner, I might omit the telephone numbers involved and just tender the text message by reference to the time, for convenience. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: The next text message is at 1511 hours on 15th of January. That's barcoded D1027571. COMMISSIONER: That's exhibit 1368. EXHIBIT 1368 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 1511 hours barcode D1027571 MR HASTINGS: The next is a text message at 1511 hours. That is barcoded D1027572. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1369. EXHIBIT 1369 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 1511 hours barcode D1027572 .08/04/2003 9398

B5/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: The next text message on the same date at 1513 hours is barcoded D1027573. COMMISSIONER: 1370 will be the exhibit number. EXHIBIT 1370 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 1513 hours barcode D1027573 MR HASTINGS: The next text message on the same date at 1516 hours, barcoded D1027536. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1371. EXHIBIT 1371 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 1516 hours barcode D1027536 MR HASTINGS: The next text message on the same date at 1517 hours, D1027538. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1372. EXHIBIT 1372 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 1517 hours barcode D1027538 MR HASTINGS: Then there was at telephone interception recording and transcript at 1554 hours, which is barcoded D1033036. I skipped one, Commissioner, and went to the next one down. 1033036. COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be exhibit 1373. EXHIBIT 1373 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Telephone intercept recording and transcript, 1554 hours, barcode D1033036 MR HASTINGS: And I skip the next two, and then there are three text messages. These are all on the 15th of January, one at 2008 hours, barcode D1027535. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1374. EXHIBIT 1374 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 2008 hours barcode D1027535 MR HASTINGS: The next, on the same day at 2009 hours, barcoded D1027539. .08/04/2003 9399

B5/2 POLICE COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 1375. EXHIBIT 1375 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 2009 hours barcode D1027539 MR HASTINGS: The next at 2010 hours, D1027540. COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 1376. EXHIBIT 1376 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 2010 hours barcode D1027540 MR HASTINGS: I omitted the next two and went to the next text message on the same date at 2015 hours, barcoded D1027543. COMMISSIONER: 1377. EXHIBIT 1377 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 2010 hours barcode D1027543 MR HASTINGS: The next is on the same date, a text message at 2016 hours, D1027544. COMMISSIONER: 1378. EXHIBIT 1378 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Text message at 2016 hours barcode D1027544 MR HASTINGS: I then moved to the 16th of January, the first text message at 0801 hours, barcoded D1033243. COMMISSIONER: 1379. EXHIBIT 1379 Mr Hastings DATE 16.1.03 Text message at 0801 hours barcode D1033243 MR HASTINGS: I omitted the next three and went to the telephone intercept recording at 1443 hours, which is barcoded D1033034. COMMISSIONER: 1380. EXHIBIT 1380 Mr Hastings DATE 16.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1443 hours barcode D1033034 MR HASTINGS: On the 17th of January 2003, there was a text message at 2117, which I tender, which is barcoded D1027550. .08/04/2003 9400

B5/2 POLICE COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1381. EXHIBIT 1381 Mr Hastings DATE 17.1.03 Text messge at 2117 hours barcode D1027550 MR HASTINGS: I didn't refer to the next. I then moved to the 20th of January and there was at telephone interception recording at 2014 hours, which I tender, which is barcoded D1033030. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1382. EXHIBIT 1382 Mr Hastings DATE 20.1.03 Telephone interception recording at 2014 hours, barcode D1033030 MR HASTINGS: I didn't play the next. And on the 21st of January there was a telephone interception recording and transcript which is barcoded D1033032, which I tender. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1383. EXHIBIT 1383 Mr Hastings DATE 21.1.03 Telephone interception recording and transcript, barcode D1033032 MR HASTINGS: I then moved over the page to the 28th of January - - - .08/04/2003 9401

B6/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - 28th of January and played a telephone interception recording and showed a transcript which is at 1024 hours, D1033027. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1384. EXHIBIT 1384 Mr Hastings DATE 28.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1024 hours, with transcript, barcode D1033027 MR HASTINGS: I also played the next, which is a telephone interception recording at 1840 hours, again on the 28th of January 2003, which is barcoded D1033028. COMMISSIONER: 1385. EXHIBIT 1385 Mr Hastings DATE 28.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1840 hours, barcode D1033028 MR HASTINGS: I then moved to the 29th of January and played the last telephone intercept recording at 1225, which is barcoded D1033026. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1386. EXHIBIT 1386 Mr Hastings DATE 29.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1225 hours, barcode D1033026 MR HASTINGS: I then moved to the 30th of January and referred to a text message at 1326 hours, which is barcoded D1027568. COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 1387. EXHIBIT 1387 Mr Hastings DATE 30.1.03 Text message at 1326 hours, barcode D1027568 MR HASTINGS: And then I played the last telephone intercept passage on the 30th of January, which is timed at 2133 hours and barcoded D1033005. COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 1388. EXHIBIT 1388 Mr Hastings DATE 30.1.08 Telephone intercept recording at 2133 hours, barcode D1033005 MR HASTINGS: And for the 31st of January 2003 I played the telephone intercept at 0734 hours, which is barcoded D1033006. COMMISSIONER: 1389. .08/04/2003 9402

B6/1 POLICE EXHIBIT 1389 Mr Hastings DATE 31.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 0710 hours, barcode D1033006 MR HASTINGS: Then the telephone intercept at 0915 hours, which is D1033007. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1390. EXHIBIT 1390 Mr Hastings DATE 31.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 0915 hours, barcode D1033007 MR HASTINGS: I omitted the next and went to the following telephone intercept at 1059 hours, which is barcoded D1033009. COMMISSIONER: 1391. EXHIBIT 1391 Mr Hastings DATE 31.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1059 hours, barcode D1033009 MR HASTINGS: I played the next telephone intercept, which was at 1246 hours, barcoded D1033010. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1392. EXHIBIT 1392 Mr Hastings DATE 31.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1246 hours, barcode D1033010 MR HASTINGS: And the next telephone intercept on the same day, which was at 1520 hours, barcoded D1033011. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1393. EXHIBIT 1393 Mr Hastings DATE 31.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1520 hours, barcode D1033011 MR HASTINGS: And the next, which is timed at 1641 hours and barcoded D1033012. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1394. EXHIBIT 1394 Mr Hastings DATE 31.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 1641 hours, barcode D1033012 MR HASTINGS: Then over the page, Commissioner, there are some listening device transcripts which - - COMMISSIONER: Is there one - - the third-last in that 31st of January? Or is that - - .08/04/2003 9403

B6/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Yes. Yes, I'm sorry, Commissioner. That should be added. That is a telephone intercept at 2210 hours, which is barcoded D1033019. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1395. EXHIBIT 1395 Mr Hastings DATE 31.1.03 Telephone intercept recording at 2210 hours, barcode D1033019 MR HASTINGS: Then the listening device transcripts which I played yesterday were for the 15th of January 2003, which is barcoded D1033184. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1396. EXHIBIT 1396 Mr Hastings DATE 15.1.03 Listening device transcript, barcode D1033184 MR HASTINGS: Then in relation to the transcript of a meeting on the 30th of January 2003, as to the first part, the version I played and which I now tender is barcoded D1034430. COMMISSIONER: 1397. EXHIBIT 1397 Mr Hastings DATE 30.1.03 Listening device transcript, barcode D1034430 MR HASTINGS: The second part of the same recording which I played is the version barcoded D1034431. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1398. EXHIBIT 1398 Mr Hastings DATE 30.1.03 Listening device transcript, barcode D1034431 MR HASTINGS: The third part of the same recording which I played and tender, which is barcoded D1034432. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1399. EXHIBIT 1399 Mr Hastings DATE 30.1.03 Listening device transcript, barcode D1034432 MR HASTINGS: The fourth part which I played and tender is D1034433. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1400. .08/04/2003 9404

B6/1 POLICE EXHIBIT 1400 Mr Hastings DATE 30.1.03 Listening device transcript, barcode D1034433 MR HASTINGS: And the fifth part of the same recording, the version played and which I tender, is barcoded D1034434. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1401. EXHIBIT 1401 Mr Hastings DATE 30.1.03 Listening device transcript, barcode D1034434 MR HASTINGS: Which I think brings us up to date. .08/04/2003 9405

B7/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Commissioner, I call (...name suppressed...), would you come forward, please? (...name suppressed...) called: COMMISSIONER: Could I have your full name, please? (...name suppressed...) COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? (...name suppressed...): No, I don't, sir. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. If you would take the Bible in your right hand - - (...name suppressed...): The only thing is I don't have any legal representation at this point in time, sir. COMMISSIONER: Are you seeking to have representation? (...name suppressed...): Yes, sir. I have asked for it but it hasn't been provided to me at this stage. MR HASTINGS: Well, I'm reasonably flexible about it, Commissioner. I certainly don't want (...name suppressed...) to be disadvantaged. COMMISSIONER: No. MR HASTINGS: Can I just ask, sergeant, have you been given an indication of when you will receive some advice about your representation? (...name suppressed...): I'm sorry, sir, I - - MR HASTINGS: Have you been told by Legal Aid when you will be told that you can be represented? (...name suppressed...): I spoke to Mr Cassidy from the union this morning and there's supposed to be someone coming down that he is going to have represent me. MR HASTINGS: Well, Commissioner, perhaps then if we can leave (...name suppressed...) for the time being, and if you can approach my solicitor when your lawyer turns up or have your lawyer approach us. (...name suppressed...): Sure. .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) 9406

B7/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Thank you. MR O'SULLIVAN: I think Mr Laskaris was expected down here. I don't - - well, that obviously hasn't happened. He's not here, so - - COMMISSIONER: He is representing this - - MR O'SULLIVAN: I think that was what was intended. COMMISSIONER: I see. MR O'SULLIVAN: But I don't know what firm arrangements have been made, sir. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: As it turns out, I think, Commissioner, we can adjust that by dealing with Mr O'Sullivan's client, (...name suppressed...), who is here and can be called. MR O'SULLIVAN: As my learned friend said, I do appear for (...name suppressed...). He understood he was going to be giving evidence tomorrow so he's not dressed in the way that he would have preferred to be dressed but if you can excuse him that - - COMMISSIONER: We're not worried about that. MR O'SULLIVAN: He's happy to give his evidence today. COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. (...name suppressed...) called: COMMISSIONER: Can I have your full name? (...name suppressed...): (...name suppressed...). COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? (...name suppressed...): No, sir. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. If you would take the Bible and read out the oath. (...name suppressed...) sworn: COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Sit down, please. MR HASTINGS: Commissioner, we just need to be reminded. I think that there's a non-publication order with respect to .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) 9407

B7/4 POLICE (...name suppressed...)'s name which was made yesterday. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR O'SULLIVAN: That was made yesterday on my application, sir, thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: But we won't allocate a code number. It will just need to be remembered that his name is not to be published. EXAMINED BY MR HASTINGS SC: MR HASTINGS: (...name suppressed...), (...suppressed...). And were you stationed in that position in January of this year?---I commenced in that position on the 20th of January this year. Right. I just want to ask you about some activity which seemed to be occurring in and around the 31st of January this year, and particularly concerning the possibility of some ecstasy arriving in Western Australia from the eastern states?---Yes. Do you recall that matter?---Yes, I do. Was that an investigation in which you were involved?---I was advised of the investigation. I conducted some inquiries in relation to that, yes. And what was the original advice that you received about the matter?---I was advised by the officer in charge of the inquiry at the time, Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...), in relation to a possible ecstasy process coming from the east. I submitted an (...suppressed...) information report detailing what I had received. I think we have that on the system, and could this be brought up, please, for (...name suppressed...)'s screen first? It's barcoded D1034055. There's an edited version I think now on the screen - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9408

B8/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - on the screen?---Yes, that's correct. Does that seem to be the information report that you compiled in relation to the matter?---That's correct, yes. The version in front of you on the screen has the bottom half blacked out. Do you recall that on the bottom of that form there were some research notes that accumulated some information which you had gathered in relation to some of the personalities apparently involved in the matter?---Yeah. In conjunction with (...suppressed...), yes. Yes. At the time when you had this conversation with Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...), who we refer to as T2, what was his association with you?---He was (...suppressed...) at the time. And does the information report - which in fact can be brought up on all screens because it's been edited - accurately record the information that you were given by T2?---In relation to information that he - - yes. It was basically what I was advised and it was enhanced further by (...suppressed...) as a result of a conversation with some of the officers there attached to the (...suppressed...). Can we just go through the document then to identify which information you received from T2 and that which you received from (...suppressed...)? It purports to say in the "Information" heading: "(...suppressed...) have received information from a

criminal source who has received information from a third party that about $500,000 of ecstasy will arrive in Western Australia from the eastern states between 02 and 03 February 03."

Where did you get that from?---From Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...). It goes on to say: "The ecstasy will be couriered to Perth in an unknown

vehicle via Esperance, Albany and then, upon arriving in Perth, it will be stored in an unknown self-storage unit in the metro area."

Where'd you get that from?---Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...). "The source also advises that the storage unit has

already been obtained by the third party and currently holds $200,000 in cash."

.08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9409

B8/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: From where did you get that?---Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...). "The principals of this activity in Perth are believed

to be involved in the matter in the management of the unknown night club."

Sorry. I'll read that again: "The principals of this activity in Perth are believed

to be involved in the management of an unknown nightclub and is believed known as (...name suppressed...) or similar. (...name suppressed...) is also believed to be (...suppressed...)."

WITNESS: (...name suppressed...) was obtained through (...suppressed...) through their database. At the time, I believe all we had was that he was of (...suppressed...) descent. MR HASTINGS: "It was also ascertained from the source that the east coast principals" - it reads "with"; it probably means "will" - "will arrive by air shortly after the shipment arrives. The east coast principal is only described as being a (...suppressed...) European, and will be in company with a (...suppressed...) who will act as security." Where did you get - -?---Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...). "The source will be in a position later this evening,

31 January 2003, to provide police with further details of the alleged shipment."

Where did you get that from?---From Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...). Right. I think you - - you seem to have in front of you, do you, an unedited version of the document which has the additional information on the bottom?---Yes, I do. Yes. Which purports to provide further information concerning (...name suppressed...) and aliases and associations?---That's correct, yes. Where did you get that information from?---That was obtained through (...suppressed...), through the analyst and also at the time I believe all we had was a first name, and we conducted some checks on the IDM system. And as it turned out, there was a fair degree of information on the system, it would seem, in relation to (...name suppressed...) under a different alias?---That's correct, yes. There's information there. .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9410

B8/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Well, apart from compiling the information report in the form in which it now appears, did you take any other action to pursue an investigation into the matters which Detective Sergeant T2 had informed you of?---I - - as a result, some addresses were identified and I believe some checks were conducted to identify who was residing at those addresses. Addresses for what?---In relation to (...name suppressed...), some addresses in (...suppressed...). I was recalled on the evening of the 31st of January - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9411

B9/2 POLICE WITNESS: - - - the 31st of January to conduct some drive-bys of some addresses in the metro area, (...suppressed...) and others. MR HASTINGS: Were they residential addresses or industrial?---Residential addresses. What time on Friday the 31st of January were you called in?---From memory, it was around about 9 pm I was recalled to the office where I met Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...). Were other officers called as well?---No. And as a result of the drive-bys that you did, did you ascertain any relevant information?---I conducted some vehicle registration checks through the East Metro IMU Unit and the Police VKI and I couldn't identify one of the principal targets to be residing at the address. Did you carry out any further duties that evening?---No. Had you been put on notice that there may have been some work to be done at the weekend, in relation to this job?---Yes. I was - - at the office, it was discussed that other officers would be recalled, if we could identify an address for the issue of an execution of a Misuse of Drugs search warrant. What happened about that?---As a result of the actual drive-bys, I spoke to Detective Sergeant (...name suppressed...) and advised him that I didn't think we could justify a search warrant be executed as we couldn't identify a principal address for the target. What did he say?---He - - I believe - - from memory, I can't remember exactly, but acknowledged - - advised that he wouldn't be attending the following day. Was any other action taken thereafter in relation to this job?---I spoke to (...suppressed...) in relation to the information report, but no further action was followed up through there. I was advised that the job had finalised. Were you ever given any information by Detective Sergeant T2 about the whereabouts of any storage unit in which the drugs may be stored or money may be stored?---No. We conducted some inquiries in relation to trying to identify a storage unit, but to my knowledge, no storage unit was identified. When you met with Detective Sergeant T2 on the Friday evening, where did you see him?---He contacted me early at home and I attended at the (...suppressed...). Were you present yesterday?---No. Had he rung you shortly before that, or had there been an arrangement made earlier in the day that you would meet at .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9412

B9/2 POLICE that time?---No. Inquiries were conducted that - - a possibility to attend work that evening, so I was approved for a vehicle to be taken home and I received a call around about 9 pm that evening to attend the office, and I was contacted on my mobile phone. MR HASTINGS: Apart from the information which was given to you by T2 about the possibility of the ecstasy being couriered across from the east, had you been able to establish any other information which related to a current job, which connected with it?---There was a current - - from memory, from the report dealing with (...suppressed...). I spoke to (...suppressed...) in relation to that. Did that seem to involve some potential for the two jobs to be connected?---At that time, I didn't have a great deal of information, so I relied on the resources from (...suppressed...) and their (...suppressed...) liaising with some of the case officers and also the (...suppressed...). Just a moment, Commissioner - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9413

B10/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - moment, Commissioner? We might in fact have the phone call that you received from T2, which is barcoded D1033018. You might listen to this. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Does that seem to be a recording of the conversation that you had with T2 - - ?---Yes. That's correct. - - when he asked you to come in?---Yes. We know now, of course, that shortly before this T2 had stolen $10,000 from a storage unit. Did he ever say anything to you to intimate that he'd been involved in that?---No. And he talked during that call of having "a little bit of drum" including a mobile number of "the guy that's supposed to be organising it". Do you remember him giving you any information of that type when you met?---Yes. He did give me a number. Did you make inquiries about it?---It was accessed on the IDM system to see if a positive - - a hit was made, but there was no hit on the actual - - the phone. Meaning that the phone call wasn't - - ?---Well, there was no intelligence on - - on that particular phone number. Then there is a recording of a conversation between you and T2 on the following day, the 1st of February. You might listen to this. That's barcoded D1033022. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9414

B11/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: And was that a conversation between you and Detective Sergeant T2 in which you were giving him a report on your drive-by inquiries the night before?---Yes. It's pretty clear, I suppose, from what we now know as to what T2 had been up to in terms of stealing the money from the unit, that he was just sending you on a wild goose chase?---I was only doing what I was told, so - - Mm. There's one further call later the same day. We might just listen to it. It's barcoded D1033023. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: And was that a further conversation between you and T2 relating to the same matter?---Yes, it was. It would seem, from what you were saying, that not only you but also other officers were carrying out inquiries in relation to the matter on that Saturday?---Yes. You refer to "the boys couldn't even establish an address" etcetera, so while Detective Sergeant T2 was playing golf, he had you people running around making inquiries in relation to a fiction, in effect?---Like I said, I was only doing what I was asked to do. Yes, indeed. I want to make that very clear, that there is no suggestion that you've done anything improper at all. Commissioner, I think that's all, thank you, that I need from Detective (...name suppressed...). COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr O'Sullivan? MR O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR O'SULLIVAN: MR O'SULLIVAN: You didn't get any of the 10,000, did you?---No. No, all right. Nothing, thank you, sir. May (...name suppressed...) be relieved from the subpoena, the summons. COMMISSIONER: Yes. You're excused from further attendance under the summons. WITNESS WITHDREW .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN XXN 9415

B11/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: I call Mr Joseph Lau. COMMISSIONER: Could I have your full name, please? MR LAU: Joseph Lau. COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? MR LAU: No. COMMISSIONER: If you would take the Bible and read the oath, please? JOSEPH LAU sworn: COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Sit down, please. MR HASTINGS: Might the witness have in front of him, Commissioner, the code list? COMMISSIONER: Yes. EXAMINED BY MR HASTINGS QC: MR HASTINGS: Do you see the person whose name appears second on that list, Mr Lau, alongside T2?---Yes. Is he somebody you know?---Yes. I just want you to watch something which will come up on the screen. It's barcoded D1034424. The screen will appear in a minute. I just want you to look at something. VIDEO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9416

B12/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Did you recognise the persons shown in that film?---Yes, I do. Was the person with his back to the camera you?---Yes. Sitting in the chair?---Yes. Was the person in the check shirt standing Detective Sergeant T2?---Yes. Did you hand him some cash?---Yes. Why did you hand him some cash?---When he request for the money of $45,000 to be put into trust account and I ask him can I borrow some money of that because I got not much money to use, and he say I can. I borrow from him 5000. That part of the money his repayment of the $5000. I see. Would you have a look at this further bit of footage, which is barcoded D1034425? VIDEO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Again do you recognise the people shown in that film?---Yes. Was the person in the white shirt to the left of screen you? ---Yes. And was the person to the right of screen Detective Sergeant T2?---Yes. In the course of that film did you seem to give some cash to Detective Sergeant T2?---Yes. The first occasion upon which the film was taken and which I showed you was the 9th of December last year?---Mm. Do you have any particular recollection of paying T2 money on that date?---Not off my head but I did have a record written in the piece of paper which I give to the investigating officer, Peter Moroney. And the second occasion on which the film was taken was the 22nd of January this year. Do you have any specific recollection of paying T2 on that date?---It's the same thing. I did note down in a piece of paper in a record card which I give to Peter Moroney, the investigating officer. All right. Well, can we go back to the beginning then? Were your first dealings with T2, that's the man on the list - - ? ---Yes. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9417

B12/4 POLICE - - in the year 2001 when he and another officer came to interview you? Do you remember that?---I don't remember the date but, yes, they did come on many occasion. Yes. MR HASTINGS: Well, the records indicate that on the 26th of February 2001 - - ?---Mm. - - Detective T2 - - ?---Mm hm. - - and some other officers came to your home and executed a search warrant?---Yes. Yes, I remember that. Yes. I don't remember the date but, yes, they did come. Yes. And they, according to the records that I have, say that you were then taken back to the office - - ?---Yes. - - of the police and interviewed?---No, they went to my office first. From my office I went to their office. All right. Well, perhaps you might say - - what's your recollection of the order of events on the day?---They came pretty early in the morning and I thought they were looking for something else but then they explaining - - they explain me what was going on and I say, "I got further document in the office if you want" so we drove back to our office. I waited for them before I open my office door, just in case - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9418

B13/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - just in case they think I'm trying to move the documents when I reached the office. When they arrive I open my office door, but the document was - - I was going to show them; they are not interested. So they ask me am I free to come to the office; I say yes. So they took me in their car to the office. MR HASTINGS: And you went to the police office, did you?---Yes. Right. Were you interviewed there? Asked questions?---Yes. Yes. Was any tape recording made of - - ?---Oh, I don't know. I don't know whether they tape it or not. I'm not sure. When you were there, did they ask questions about what seemed to be a fraud in which some Malaysian people had come to Australia and had made some credit card transactions?---Yes. Did they indicate to you or say to you that there were some records which showed that some of the money from that activity had come to you?---No. They show me in my house that do I know anything about this particular cheque. I say, "Yes, I do." And that was a cheque for $1.5 million?---Yes. That's right. And did they say to you then that they were investigating a fraud - - ?---Yes. - - which had led to that cheque being issued?---Yes. They say that this company or this cheque is involved in some kind of fraud case or credit card fraud case or things like that. Something to that effect, yeah. Did you tell them that you had known a Malaysian person who had given you the cheque?---Yes. Did you give information concerning that person?---Yes. You had received a different cheque, had you not, from that Malaysian person, which you'd processed through your bank account?---Only one went through my bank account. Yes?---Only one. And what happened was that from the cheque which had been given to you by the Malaysian person, you'd obtained a bank cheque on your account?---I bank it in. I ask the bank, "Is this cheque any good?" The bank say this company got plenty of money. Then the time it clear I make into a bank cheque. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9419

B13/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: The bank cheque was negotiated at the casino, was it?---Yes. By you?---Yes. Did you receive cash for it or - - ?---No. - - chips?---Chips. Did you receive 30 chips - - ?---On different occasion, yeah. - - for a value of $50,000 each?---Yes. What did you do with those chips?---He - - when he arrive at 2.00, 3 o'clock in the morning, on which day I do not know, I pass it off to him. This is the man from Malaysia?---Yes. Yes. (...name suppressed...). Did you tell all of this to Detective Sergeant T2 - - ?---Yes. - - and the others with him?---Yes. And from time to time after that, did you have contact with Detective Sergeant T2?---Yes. And according to the records which were kept, you provided some help to Detective Sergeant T2 when you had some information about where these people were or might be?---Yes. Yes, I did. And in particular I think that on one occasion you indicated that one of the people might be at the airport?---On that very day, yes. And on another occasion you told T2 that one of the people might be at the casino?---Yes. And you provided other information which may have helped them find that person - - ?---Yes. - - did you not?---Yes. Then as far as the original money and the $1.5 million and the casino chips was concerned, after you gave them to your Malaysian acquaintance did you receive some $50,000 chips back?---Not from them. Not - - not from - - another person. From another person?---Yeah. Another person, yeah. And did you cash those cheques at the - - those chips at the casino?---Yes, I did. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9420

B13/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Did you do a straight cash or did you do some gambling with them for a while and - - ?---No. I did a straight - - straight cash and telegraphic the money over to him, yes. There were four $50,000 chips, were there?---That's right. Yes. And did you get a total of $200,000 from the casino?---Yes. Yes. What did you do with the - - ?---I telegraphic the money over to them. He give me a name where to - - where to telegraphic it to. I did accordingly. Was that to Malaysia?---Yes. The money that you - - well, did you receive cash - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9421

B14/5 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - you receive cash from the casino for the four chips, or were they bank documents, or cheque - - ?---No. It's cash. Cash?---Yeah. It's cash; yes. So you had $200,000 in cash?---No, not in one go; not in one go. It was the morning or late in the day - not in one go. No. When you took the money to the bank to be transferred to Malaysia, did you take it in one go, or did you take it in smaller amounts?---I think in $50,000; then there was another 60,000. In that lot; yeah. After you had transferred the money to Malaysia, did you get contacted again by Detective Sergeant T2?---Yes. I did. Had you sent all of the money by then, or were you still sending it in bits?---I have sent all the money by then. When I came to my office he asked me did I send some money - - cash some money and send it over. I say "Yes. I did". I say: "In fact only last couple of days - - last couple of days ago, I sent the last lot over". How long before T2 came to speak to you had you sent the last lot?---About a day or two. When he came to you to discuss that, was he alone or with some other officer?---He was with another officer. Did you know that officer by name?---Yes. Who was that?---(...name suppressed...). Commissioner, in view of Mr O'Sullivan's pending application, perhaps it might be appropriate to make, at least for the time being, a non-publication order until that matter is resolved, in relation to the name (...name suppressed...). COMMISSIONER: Yes. I direct that there be no publication of the name (...name suppressed...). MR HASTINGS (TO WITNESS): Where were you when Detective Sergeant T2 and (...name suppressed...) came to see you?---In my office. Did you stay there, or did you go somewhere else?---No. From the office he took me to the bank and asked me to make a stop payment - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9422

B15/2 POLICE WITNESS: - - - me to make a stop payment on the last transaction. MR HASTINGS: Who went to the bank?---I did. They took me to the bank. I'm sorry? They took you?---Yeah. Did they come into the bank with you?---No, they did not come inside, no. But did they drive you there?---Yes, they did. And waited outside, did they?---Yes. And did you go into the bank?---Yes, I did. Did you do something about stopping the transfer of the funds?---Under the instruction from the officer, yeah, I went in to make a stop payment and it took quite some time because of some paperwork. I think it took more than half an hour, so after when it finish, I was walking out of the bank and I saw (...name suppressed...) coming towards me and he ask why it take so long. I just say it took so long. Did you get back in the car with them?---Yes. Where did you go after that?---Oh, they - - they took me to my house. What happened there?---Oh, I thought they wanted to see something in my house. I went towards the door, to open the door, but they were - - they not go to the house, and from there, they took me back to the office, but they don't reach the office. They took me back to the station, is it, their quarters, yeah. What happened at the police station?---I was left in the room. Were you alone or with another officer?---Most of the time I was on my own, then some other officer came and join me and just sat down with me, so after a while I got bored, I say I want to smoke and they took me downstairs to have a smoke. And we came upstairs again, so I said, "Why am I doing here? Why are you here?" He say, "Oh, we shouldn't leave anybody in the office by themselves." Should they - - should anything happen or they hung themself, then they are responsible. Do you know the name of that officer who was staying with you?---No, not really. For how long did you stay at the police office?---I think till late afternoon. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9423

B15/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Did anything happen? Were you interviewed or - -?---No. Taken into a - -?---No. Photographed or arrested - -?---No. - - or charged?---No, no. What happened at the end of your time there?---- Oh, he send two other officer to see me back to my office. Were you driven back?---Yes. Do you know the names of those officers?---Oh, one I can remember, one by the name of (...name suppressed...)?, surname (...name suppressed...). I'm not too sure, you know? I can recognise him, but name, not really, no. Now, did something happen the next day?---No. Or after that?---Yes, I don't believe he call, but they do come now and then, yes. Eventually, did the money come back to your account, that had been sent overseas?---Yes. How much of the $200,000?---Oh, only the last transaction came back. Only the last one which I stopped. I'll just find the documents in a minute, but did the money, the $50,000, come back within a day or so, or did it take longer than that?---No, no, no, no. It took longer than that. Approximately how long?---Oh, I remember receiving phone call on few occasion. They ask me whether, has the money return? I say, no. Who rang you?---Sergeant (...name suppressed...). Right. And did eventually the money come back into your account?---Yes. What happened after that?---They came to my office and ask me, has the money come - - Who came?---Sergeant (...name suppressed...) and (...name suppressed...). Yes. What did you say?---I say, yes, and he say, "Why didn't you inform us?" I say, "I did. I send a fax to you - - -" .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9424

B16/3 POLICE WITNESS: "- - - fax to you." MR HASTINGS: And had you sent a fax?---I sent just a fax just advise them that money has been into my account, "What do I do from here? What do I need to do from here?" When did you send the fax?---The day the bank call me up and let me know the money has credited into my account. Thank you - -?---And the lady that call me from the bank is (...name suppressed...), her name. (...name suppressed...)?---(...name suppressed...). You know - - (...name suppressed...)?---Yeah. Yes. I do have your bank statement, I think. It's barcoded D1031175. Can you see on the screen there what appears to be a statement relating to your bank account?---Yes. And if we go to the 14th of June, there's a deposit shown of $50,000?---Yeah. Does that seem to be the cash that you received - -?---Yeah. - - for the last chip?---Yes. Then on the 18th of June, what is shown as a withdrawal and a debit of $50,000?---Mm hm. Does that refer to the transfer of the money - -?---Yes. - - overseas?---Yes. Right. If we can go to the next page - - or the page after the next page number 47, page 3 of 4. No. We need to go to the next page again. No, sorry. We need to go to another barcode which is - - the next document which is barcoded D1031176. Again, that seems to be a statement of your bank account, does it not?---Yes. And if we go to the 30th of July - -?---Yeah. - - it shows deposit Belmont?---Yeah. $49,964?---Yes. Was that a return of the $50,000 that you transferred in June, less some charges - -?---Yes. - - for the bank's fees for - -?---Yes. - - the transfer and return of the money?---Yes. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9425

B16/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: So that was the 30th of July. Then if we go over two pages - - sorry. Another barcode. Sorry. We need to move to a separate document. That's barcode D1031177. Again, that seems to be a statement of your account and I can go to the next page, please. On the 23rd of August, do you see that withdrawal?---Yes. "000044"?---Yes. "Belmont $45,000"?---Yes. What did that transaction represent?---That is the money that Sergeant (...name suppressed...) ask me to withdraw and pass it on to him for - - he say is for further investigation and he going to put it into a trust account. All right?---Some kind of a police trust account. Why was the amount $45,000, when the original amount that you transferred over was $50,000 and the amount that came back - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9426

B17/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - and the amount that came back was $49,964?---I told him there were some other expenses previously with the 1.5 million when I withdrew it. There were some taxes here and there. I'm going to recount all that money but I can't give you the full amount. So you wanted to take out your expenses - - ?---Yes. Yes. - - before you handed over what was left?---Yes. I told him I've got expenses here and there, yes. On the day that this discussion took place, who was present?---Only Sergeant (...name suppressed...). Where did you have this discussion?---In my office. Had you already taken out the cash before the discussion, or did you have the discussion and then go to the bank and take out the cash?---I had the - - had the discussion first. Had the discussions, yeah. Did you agree in that discussion that the amount that he would be given would be $45,000?---Yes. Right. So did you go to the bank?---Yes, I did. Did you withdraw $45,000?---I did. Was that in cheque or cash?---In cash. I ask him, when he told me that his boss wanted the money, to investigate the money, he want the money to put in a trust account. I say, "I'll write you a cheque." He say no; he want it in cash. So I did it in cash. Having taken out the $45,000 did you give all of it to him or part of it?---I - - I give it all in two bundle. There were two bundle. One bundle of 20,000 each, another bundle of 20,000, another small envelope of 5000 each. As they're going through all these, "I need some money. Can you lend me some money for me to use?" So he lend me - - I thought he would lend me the $5000 and I gave him $40,000 in cash. Where did you hand that money to him?---In the - - in the office. Why did you want to keep $5000?---Oh, there were bit and pieces that I wanted to do, and I was really getting annoyed that I'm going through all these things for nothing. I did it innocently. From the start I did everything to help a friend, knowing - - not knowing that all this stupid thing that had come, or fraud or whatever. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9427

B17/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Did you tell Detective Sergeant T2 that you needed the $5000?---Yes, I did. I ask him to lend it to me first. I need it for some other purpose. In fact, you had plenty of money in your account, did you not, because you - - ?---Oh - - - - had a credit of $21,000?--- - - yeah. Mm. COMMISSIONER: Twenty-seven. MR HASTINGS: Sorry, Commissioner? COMMISSIONER: Twenty-seven. MR HASTINGS: Well, I was looking at the twenty - - COMMISSIONER: Immediately after, yes. MR HASTINGS: - - twenty-third of August; there's a credit remaining of 21,361. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: In any event, did Detective Sergeant T2 agree that you could hang on to the small bundle of $5000 in cash?---Yeah. He loan it to me, yes. And he emphasise that I've got to pay him back. The boss will know about it. The boss would or would not?---The boss would know about it. Right. Did you give him the other two bundles of $20,000 each?---Yes. Did you get a receipt or any other documents to indicate - - ?---No. I did ask for one. He say he will organise it, and a later stage I ask him again. He say, "Anybody ask for the money just say the cops got it." At the time when you handed the money to him but held back $5000, was there an arrangement for the time in which you would have to repay the $5000?---I told him, "When I get some money I'll start paying you back," yes. So it took me quite some time before I start paying him back. Well, the payments that we saw you paying on the 9th of December 2002 - - ?---Yes. - - and in January of 2003 to Detective Sergeant T2 on the film - - ?---Yes. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9428

B17/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - earlier; were they repayments of the $5000 that you kept - - ?---That's right. Yeah. - - on the 23rd of August?---That's right. That's right. Have you repaid all of that amount?---No. I got a - - I got a card that I note down which are the day I pay him and how much I pay him. I'll come to that in just a minute?---Yeah. Just in relation to the $40,000 in cash, did you ever receive any other record or acknowledgment from the police service that that money had been taken or put into a trust account?---No. All I was told that it was put in a trust account for further investigation whether this money is part of the $1.5 million or not. So I did, you know, what they ask me to do. Were you ever questioned again about the fraud and the money - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9429

B18/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - and the money?---I did - - I did - - I did mention. I say, "Are you" - - No, were you questioned? Did the police interview you or question you - - ?---No, no, no. - - again about - - ?---No, they didn't question me. I questioned them this time. I questioned them, to ask him, "Are you very, very sure that this money is part of the fraud money?" He didn't say "Yes" or he didn't say "No" but he's nod his head. Did you ever talk to T2 about whether that money could be refunded to you?---Yes. Once the investigation is over, yes. What did he say?---"Just hang on to it. Wait until it's over. We're still investigating." This all arose because somebody had given you four $50,000 casino chips - - ?---Yeah, yeah. Yeah. - - which you cashed - - ?---Yeah. - - and were supposed to transfer overseas?---Yes, I did. As a result of what happened you were $50,000 short - - ? ---Yes. - - on your transfer?---Yes. What happened about your commitment to the people who had given you the chips?---The people over there ask me on many occasion, "What happen with your money." I didn't know what to say and I told Sergeant (...name suppressed...) that - - "People is asking me for the money. What do I say?" In fact, I did send him a fax regarding this matter. I think Sergeant - - Officer Moroney might have a copy - - I've got those. I'll come to those in a second?---Yes, and as far as these people was - - he couldn't give a damn what happen or who took the money, grandfather or grandmother, they want their money back so I have to pay them back one way or the other. So you paid those people the missing 50,000?---Yes, I had - - I have to. I have to. But have you?---I have, yes. How did you do that?---Bits and pieces. Here 2000, here 1000, there 3000, here - - bits and pieces. Did you take money out of your bank account in order to pay .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9430

B18/4 POLICE them?---Some - - sometimes. Sometimes a bit of winning? here, sometimes a bit of cash here, take from bank card. Everywhere, whatever money I could find. MR HASTINGS: Did you transfer the funds to them?---No, no. They send somebody come collect it from me. What, they've come - - ?---I was scared shit then, yeah. Come back to Perth, have they?---Whether they come back to Perth or these people are from Perth I do not know. I see?---Yeah. But they've taken money from you here in Perth - - ?---Yeah. - - in cash, have they?---Yes, yes. Did you keep a list of the payments that you've made to them?---I used to have a list, yes. It's just so much, so much, so much, yes. Until now, after I pay the full amount, nobody has to owe? me no more. Have you paid the full amount of - - ?---Yes, I did. - - $50,000 that was short?---Yes, yes. COMMISSIONER: Would that be a convenient time, Mr Hastings? MR HASTINGS: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: We will adjourn until ten to twelve. AT 11.24 AM HEARING ADJOURNED .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9431

B18/4 POLICE AT 11.54 AM HEARING RESUMED: COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Hastings. MR HASTINGS: Commissioner, before I go any further might I tender the two videos that I played earlier? The recording of the 9th of December 2002 is barcoded D1034424. That may be a public exhibit. COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be exhibit 1402. EXHIBIT 1402 Mr Hastings DATE 9.12.02 Video tape - barcode D10344224 MR HASTINGS: And I tender the video of the 22nd of January 2003, which is barcoded 1034425 as a public exhibit. COMMISSIONER: That will be exhibit 1402. EXHIBIT 1403 Mr Hastings DATE 22.1.03 Video tape - barcode 1034425 COMMISSIONER: As I understand, Ms Boston has an application. MS BOSTON: Yes, sir, I seek leave to appear on behalf of (...name suppressed...). COMMISSIONER: Yes. That leave is granted. MR HASTINGS: Mr Lau, apart from the moneys that you have talked about so far with the $50,000 chips and the transfers to Malaysia and the refund or repatriation of the $50,000 back and the $45,000 was there not another cheque for $25,000, a cheque credit from the casino that came into the possession of Detective Sergeant T2 as well?---Yes. What happened about that?---I questioned him many, many times, on many occasion. Can I just go back? How did it happen that you had possession of the cheque credit from the casino for $25,000? Where did the money come from?---Some time during the night, yeah. The winning, you know. The winnings. Winnings?---Yeah. You just put it into a cheque credit because you're going to use it on a daily basis anyway. Well, was that connected with cashing one of the casino cheques - - ?---No, no, no, no. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9432

B18/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Chips, rather, for $50,000?---This has got nothing to do whatsoever. Just your own winnings, were they?---Yes. That's right, yes. Right, and you have that cheque in your possession when Detective Sergeant T2 was talking to you about getting the money back from Malaysia?---Yes. How did he know that you had that cheque?---It was not T2 that noticed it in the first time. It was (...name suppressed...). All right. How did he know that you had the cheque?---I was talking to him. He put his hand into my pocket and just took out whatever is in my pocket. You're indicating your shirt breast pocket?---Shirt pocket, yes. Right?---Yeah. What, he just reached over and took - - ?---Yeah. - - something out of your pocket?---Whatever was there, yes. Right?---Yeah. Was the cheque in amongst other material or - - ?---Yes, yes. - - on its own in your pocket?---No, no, no, with many other things. And when did that happen in relation to the money that you've talked about so far?---It is quite early in the stage. I see?---Before - - before the - - Before the four chips became cashed?---Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right?---That's right. And were you asked questions about the $25,000 cheque credit from the casino?---Yes. He said he would investigate and then I think he must have investigated it and found that that is my money and he gave it back to me later on. I see. Have you ever presented that cheque?---Oh, yes. Now, you mentioned earlier that you kept a record of the payments that you made to T2 - - ?---Yes. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9433

B18/4 POLICE - - to repay the $5000?---Yes. MR HASTINGS: If I can just hold up - - ?---Yes. - - a small card. Does that appear to be - - ?---Yes. - - the record you kept?---Yes. If we can have that brought up the screen. It's barcoded D1031133. (TO WITNESS): Does that seem to be the document, ignoring - - the handwriting is yours, is it not, apart from where that circle is and the date of 21.11.01? That's not your writing, is it?---That's correct. But the rest of the writing is yours, is it?---Yes. Apart from the fact that somebody has signed the document as a receipt for it?---Yes. And do the dates and the amounts shown on the document record the amounts that you paid to T2?---Yes. On those occasions did you pay T2 alone or was he - - ? ---Alone. - - accompanied with someone? They show payments of 400, 300, 300, 200, 150 and 200 dollars respectively but for the first payment of $200 there's no date recorded. Why is that?---Just something you just forget. Busy. Doing other things. It's not all the money I pay. Did you create this record on the day when the money was paid or did you go back later and try to remember the days?---No, it's always on the same day - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9434

B20/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - on the same day. MR HASTINGS: And how is it that you didn't make a note of the date of the payment of $200?---Sometimes you are doing something, phone call come in, some customer come in. You just leave it as that, yeah. So is that a complete record of the moneys that you repaid T2?---Yes. Yes. It totals $1550, which seems to be short of the $5000 that you owe?---Yes. What has happened about repaying the balance?---I'm just in financial difficulties. Firstly, I have to - - Sergeant (...name suppressed...) took the 40,000 and told - - I have to pay the Malaysian people 50,000, which they don't care what happen to it. As far as they're concerned they want their money back and I have to struggle to get their money to pay them. So they come before I pay Sergeant (...name suppressed...). All this put me into a lot of stress; nothing more than that. All I got from this was just high blood pressure. Right. Were the people in Malaysia people you regarded as a threat to your safety?---Of course. Were they the same people who'd been involved in the original cheque for $1.5 million?---No. They were not. Did you understand them to be associated? Connected in some way?---The reason I say they are connected because - - just because everybody is involved in horses - racehorses I mean - so because the person is all involved in horses I presumed they must know one another, or associate in one way or the other; that's all. That's my presumption only. The casino chips are not marked or numbered in any way, are they?---Not that I know of, no. Were you able to tell whether the four chips that came back to you later were part of the 30 chips that you'd been - - ?---Oh, no. - - able to obtain with the cheque?---No. You said that you had sent a fax or two to T2?---Mm hm. You had some of those faxes in your records when you were spoken to by investigators from the Royal Commission - - ?---Yes. - - did you not?---Yes. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9435

B20/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: And you were able to hand them over?---Yes. I might just get you to explain them as we go through. One is barcoded D1032566. Is that your handwriting?---Yes. Does that seem to be one of the documents, a copy of which you faxed to T2 and (...name suppressed...)?---Yep. Mm. There's no indication on it when the message was sent. Are you able to say when you sent that document?---Not really, no. Oh, the fax record should be able to provide that. Yes. It says in the first paragraph, "Fax (...name suppressed...) bank copy of transfer investigation"?---Yeah. "Copy enclosed (modified)." What was that a reference to?---That was a copy of stop payment of the last transaction from the bank, because they keep asking me, "What happened to the money?" I said, "There is a bit of problems." So I faxed a copy of it. I blank out a few items here and there to let him know that this money's actually been held up by the bank somewhere here and there. "(...name suppressed...)" is the person to whom you were to send the money, was he?---Yes. Then in paragraph 4 you say: "(...name suppressed...) is making a trip to Perth

shortly. If I ever call your hand phone and I call you by name that is (...name suppressed...), that means that I have him with me. I will let you know where I am. Would like to have (...name suppressed...) hand phone number if possible just in case I can't get hold of you."

WITNESS: Mm hm. MR HASTINGS: Did you get (...name suppressed...)'s phone number?---I think I did, yes. Did you ever have a situation in which - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9436

B21/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - situation in which you had (...name suppressed...) with you so that - -?---No, he didn't - - - - you could call the number?---He didn't make the trip. All right. In paragraph 5 you say: "Fund has not returned from Malaysia. Will inform you

when I receive it." WITNESS: Mm hm. MR HASTINGS: Does that indicate that you've sent this message in between the time when you stopped the transfer and the time when the money came back?---Yes. Thank you. Then if I can have the next document which is barcoded D1032567? Is that another document in your handwriting?---Yes. Addressed to T2?---Yes. Detective sergeant?---Yes. Was that another document which you faxed to him?---Yes. Again, the document doesn't particularly indicate when it was sent, but it does refer to (...name suppressed...) calling you on the 17th of August - -?---Yes. - - 2001?---Yeah. Would that be approximately when you sent it?---Yes. Then there's reference to a person called (...name suppressed...)?---Yes. Who was someone else associated with credit card - -?---Yes. - - scams, was she not?---Yes. And again, the 17th of August was at a time at which the money had come back but you hadn't handed it over yet, according to your statement?---No, there was another fax to say the money has arrived. If we could have a look, please, at document D1032565?---Can I interrupt you, sir? Yes?---Right at the bottom of the fax is written, "Not faxed. Spoken to Sergeant (...name suppressed...)." You're quite correct, yes?---That is to say that this was not actually faxed. Before I could fax it, Sergeant (...name suppressed...) came to my office. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9437

B21/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: I see. You're quite right. Thank you. You did provide to investigators a print from your fax, did you not, showing - -?---Yes. - - messages that you had sent to Detective Sergeant T2?---Yes. And the numbers bearing the ticks - -?---Yes. - - refer to his phone number, do they not?---Fax number. Yes, but the activity report at the beginning seems to indicate that it relates to the 15th of November 1999. That would seem to be at a time before you had any contact with T2, the first of which was early in 2001?---Mm. I - - Had you had any prior dealings with T2 before he came to you - -?---No, no. - - to speak to you about the credit card fraud?---No. I think there's another document, part of this barcode. No. It's a separate barcode then. There's another one which is D1032564. That seems to be another page of activity report from your fax, does it not?---Yes. And again it has ticked the numbers which indicate faxes to the number of Detective Sergeant T2?---Yes. Or the number. The date of that activity report seems to be the 12th of July - -?---Yes. - - 2001?---Mm. Do you have any recollection of what fax it was that you sent on that day - -?---No, not really. - - or is there any way of finding out?---Not really. Then there is a third sheet which perhaps we needn't bring up, which similarly indicates that on the 26th of July you sent a fax to T2's fax number but you're not able to identify the particular document which you sent, are you?---No. The reason I gave this activity report to the investigating officer is because I did say I did send number of faxes to T2. Right?---So that was just to back up my story, or to back up what I say was true. Thank you. Now, if we can go to document D1032610? You were able to provide to the investigators from the Commission, were you not, a copy of the - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9438

B22/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - a copy of the document which you had signed to stop the transfer of the money?---Yes. And is that the document now in front of you?---Yes. It shows, does it not, that the transfer of the funds went on the 18th of June - - ?---Yes. - - 2001?---Yes. Then towards the bottom on the left-hand side where it's headed "Telegraphic transfers" it says: "Purchaser requests cancellation and refund. Quoted

reason for refund below, non-receipt of fund." WITNESS: Mm hm. MR HASTINGS: Did that mean anything?---That is the previous question you ask me. I did say I modify the paperwork to send the fax to (...name suppressed...), because he keep asking me, "What happen to the money?" So I send him this copy, and secondly I say "Non-receipt of fund". What; you wrote that in afterwards, did you?---Yeah. Yeah. Previous fax you show me just now, that was the fax, a modified copy sent to (...name suppressed...). This is the modified - - the thing I modified is "non-receipt of fund", just to let him know that the fund has not - - I don't know what happen to the fund. So you'd gone to the bank, signed the form - - ?---Yeah. - - and later, to make (...name suppressed...) happy, you sent him - - ?---Yeah. Yes. - - a form with the words added?---That's right. Yes, that's right. But leaving those words out, the form is as you signed it, is it, to stop the transfer of the funds - - ?---Yes. - - and get them back?---Yes. Thank you. Then you also produced some further notes which are barcoded D1032611. They were some notes you made, were they, of a call on the 22nd of June 2001?---Yes. Yes. The name of T2 and (...name suppressed...) appears on the notes?---Yes. Had you contacted either of them at about that time to give them the information?---Yes. I think this is the time that they ask me to give (...name suppressed...) a call in Malaysia to find out whether he got any more chips that he could give it to me to change, but he didn't have any more. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9439

B22/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Then you kept other notes, I think, which you were also able to provide of other activity. There's a further page. Now, does that mean anything to you?---No. This has got nothing to do with it. And the next one?---Yep. Are they further notes you kept of some action happening at about the 22nd of June 2001?---Mm hm. What does all that mean?---Oh, this - - the first one, (...name suppressed...), 9.52 on this date, he call from Malaysia. And the rest are the number - - what number - - because they ring that - - that time I receiving - - I was receiving a lot of phone call, and everybody was shouting at me. I don't know who they are. Some come up with certain number. I note it down and I pass it on to Sergeant (...name suppressed...). Then there's a note in the little box towards the bottom of the page which says "9.12 (...name suppressed...)" and a phone number. "Money has not returned from Malaysia bank"?---Yes. That was the - - "Request again" it says?---Request again, yeah. And then on the top of the right-hand side there seem to be various items of cash. What does that mean?---This is the total value of the 200,000 I supposed to send to (...name suppressed...). At the last transaction was the last 50,000. At the bottom he? wrote "Stop TT to Malaysia". Right. And if I can go to a separate document, please, which is barcoded D1034074. I think you were given a business card of - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9440

B23/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - a business card of T2 at some point, were you?---Yes. Is that the card you were given?---Yes. If we can go to the bottom of it, which I think shows the reverse, you've written some further information on it. Is that what you had written on the reverse of the card on which (...name suppressed...)'s name appears and a phone number?---Mm hm. Was that number given to you to contact (...name suppressed...)?---No - - yes. Number one is (...name suppressed...) number, I think. I can't memorise his number. And the bottom number 001160, that was (...name suppressed...)' number. I call him from the police office. Right?---Mm. They had a tape - - they did tape the conversation when I called, yes. All right. Thank you. Now, can I just go back to the money that you received back from overseas and the $45,000 in cash which you withdrew from your bank on the 23rd of August 2001?---Mm hm. We've seen from the film that you were still making payments to T2 on the 9th of December last year and as late as the 22nd of January this year?---Mm. Some year and a half later?---Mm. How did it happen that you were still making repayments 18 months after the first arrangement to hand over the cash?---Well, he didn't - - I say I need it for personal thing. He didn't ask me for the money until later stage where he say he - - I got to start paying back the money because his boss is after it, and I told him to - - "I'm financially not well. Have to start paying you off bit by bit" and he says "Okay." Wasn't it part of the original arrangement when you held back the 5000 that you would have to repay it?---Yes. How long was it after that before he first came to you and wanted some repayment?---There was a date on the card that was the first repayment. It must be few days before that. The first date on the card is the 25th of October 2002 - -?---Yeah, something like that. - - which is over a year later - -?---Yea. - - before he had come back to you for some payment?---Yeah. In between, he did ask me have I got money. I said "No, I'm pretty tight." Until he came down and say really, his boss needed some money. I have to start doing something. And he .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9441

B23/3 POLICE was getting annoy at that time because he say because I can't pay him back the money that I borrow, the boss was not happy with him because of debt. He was not promoted to be a senior sergeant. MR HASTINGS: Yes. Did he tell you who his boss was?---No. I've never met the boss. I don't know who the boss was, no. And did he ring you just occasionally or did he ring you regularly - -?---Regularly. - - pressing you to make money - -?---Yeah. You might listen to some of these calls. Can I have played, please, a telephone intercept which is barcoded D1031840? This is a recording made on the 30th of July last year, 2002?---Mm hm. At 8.56 in the morning. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9442

B24/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Was that you talking to T2?---Yes. And was that an example of how he indicated that he had to talk to his boss?---Yes. Did he ever say what involvement his boss had in the money transferred, or the money handed over?---Oh, he say he told the boss the money that he collected from me, 45,000, got put into a police trust account or something like that, I'm not too sure, and $5000 is missing. So the boss is asking where - - what happen to the 5000, when are you going to collect the 5000 back. And because that I can't? provide the money in time for him or didn't pay on a regular basis, his reason was, he was trying to become a senior sergeant and he was not promoted because of this, so I - - I - - putting a lot of pressure on me to - - You said in that call: "I waited for their call. They call me and this is

only - - they told me they talking to (...name suppressed...) whatever, he's coming up to head office."

WITNESS: Mm hm. MR HASTINGS: Was the position during which you were indicating to T2 that you were trying to arrange some money through the bank?---Yes. Yes. Was (...name suppressed...) your accountant?---No. (...name suppressed...) is one of the just normal officer from the bank. Oh, right. Would you listen to this next call, which is barcoded D1031841, which is on the following - - 2 days later, the 1st of August 2002, at 8.18 in the morning. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Was that another example of Detective Sergeant T2 threatening to go to his boss about you not paying the money?---Yes. Would you listen to the next one, which is D1031842, which is on the same day, the 1st of August 2002 at 11.04 am. In the previous call you'd said: "I call them about 9.30 when they open, you know." Was that a reference to the fact that you proposed to contact the bank when they opened?---That's right. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9443

B25/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Was that another conversation with T2 in which he was pressing you for payment?---Yes. You seem to indicate that you had been to the bank. Had you in fact gone to the bank or contacted the bank, or were you calling his bluff?---No. At the end of the day I did get the loan. I did get the card. Did get the - - ?---Credit card which I applied for. To be able to withdraw some money to pay T2?---Mm. Yes. He seemed to be threatening you that the matter might go to court. Was that the matter which had previously been discussed, that you might end up in court over this?---No, he say - - he say something to the effect that if I don't pay up the full amount I could be sued and taken to court. Yeah, to that effect. Had he ever threatened you that you might be charged in relation to the fraud?---No. Had he ever threatened you that you might be charged with money laundering?---No. Were the payments that you were making to him to avoid being charged over the fraud or the money laundering?---No. The payment I make to him is the money I borrow from him. The $5000. There's a further call on the next day, the 2nd of August 2002, which you might listen to, which is barcoded D1031844. I'm sorry, it's not the 2nd, it's the 8th of August 2002. It's at 1648 hours - 4.28 in the afternoon. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: In that call T2 seemed to state that there was a deadline, tomorrow, and he might have to go upstairs - presumably, that was a reference to a senior officer - in the morning?---There were hundreds of calls, there were hundreds of deadlines, so I don't know which deadline. I'll move on to a later call, which is barcoded D1031857. This is a call on the 23rd of September 2002 at 1441 hours. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: You mentioned earlier there had been an occasion when he told you that he'd been knocked back for a promotion? ---Yes. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9444

B25/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Was this one of those situations where he told you that?---Yes. This is - - I told you before, you ensure me this conversation - - I been told so many time - - he put me to a lot of pressure when you got no money and they want some money and you can't produce it, and then they say they miss out on their promotion, make me feel very bad - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9445

B26/1 POLICE WITNESS: - - - make me feel very bad. I thought this thing was all real. I don't know it came to this. I didn't know. MR HASTINGS: He does say in the course of that conversation, "Yeah. It's been going on for 8 months"?---Mm. Bearing in mind this was in September last year, that would seem to mean that he'd been endeavouring to get some money out of you since about January in 2002?---From the beginning I told him I can't pay him straight away, but when he need the money to let me know and I try to organise it for him. But as time goes by my financial position was not very strong and I going through all kind of things, and I just simply don't have the money to pay him. I ask him to hang on till I organise it, you see. I'll now ask that you listen to this call, which is barcoded 1031862, which is a call recorded on the 11th of October 2002, remembering that your card shows the first payment on the 25th of October 2002 of $400. You might bear that in mind. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Was that another conversation about Detective Sergeant T2 trying to get some money out of you?---Yes. The point about this one seems to be, given that you've said that the card is accurate and the first payment of $400 was made on the 25th of October of 2002 - - ?---Mm hm. - - here on the 11th of October, some 2 weeks earlier, T2 said: "Because the boss is saying, well, you know, there's

been no - - you haven't done anything since you paid that 1000."

WITNESS: There was no 1000 payment to him. What I pay him is recorded on the chart accordingly. MR HASTINGS: Well, in this conversation you said, "Yeah," and he said: "Um, so we've really got to work on getting

something." WITNESS: Yes. I don't know - - MR HASTINGS: Do you want to hear it again?---I don't know about the 1000 but I have never paid him 1000 in cash before. Never. And that is the record that I have. I pay him accordingly. I don't know whether that add up to 1000 or not. I do not know. But prior to that I have never given him any money, no. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9446

B26/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: But according to your note you didn't pay him anything until the 25th of October - - ?---That is accurate. - - 2002 which was $400 - - ?---Yes. - - and certainly by the 13th of November you'd paid a total of 1000 - - ?---Yes. - - but here you are before all of that, on the 11th of October, in a call with T2 and he says you've already paid 1000?---No. I don't know. Maybe referring to the - - I'm not sure, but I have record of what I pay him. I've never paid him $1000 cash or anything, no. And he threatened to send the bailiff to my house. That was over the same $5000 debt, was it - - ?---Yeah. Yeah. - - that he was threatening to use the bailiff?---Yeah. Well, he did say: "We're going to have trouble delaying them, putting it

up to the bailiff." WITNESS: He - - he did say that he already arrange for the bailiff to come and see me, yeah. And then went on to say: "All right. Because the boss is saying, well, you

know, there's been no - - you haven't done anything since you paid that 1000."

WITNESS: Yeah. As my previous conversation, I keep emphasising that he always use the name "boss" so I do not know who his boss - - I have not met his boss so I don't really know. MR HASTINGS: No?---I don't know. I have not met any of his boss or - - And you can't explain the reference to the fact that he's saying you've already paid 1000?---No. I've never paid 1000. It could be add up all the money there to be 1000, no. I do not know - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9447

B27/3 POLICE WITNESS: - - - do not know, but definitely no other money been paid. No, I don't know. Most of the call I receive is a similar call, similar - - Yes. Were you just making excuses to avoid having to pay him, or were you - -?---Oh - - - - genuinely having trouble finding the money?---Genuinely having trouble finding the money. Genuinely. But sometimes you have to tell him grandmother story, you don't have this, you don't have that, just to avoid him, yeah. Because of your continuing contact with T2, did you develop something of a friendship?---Not really a friendship, but more - - more like, you just have to - - firstly, I been feeling bad because he emphasise he been knock back to become senior sergeant because of what - - the way - - the pay - - I pay the money to. If everything has been finalised then things will be different for him, as - - as he did mention in one of the conversation. That make me feel very bad. I thought this thing was really happening, really happening. Because you had this relationship with him, in which you were promising to pay him money, did you feel that you would be able to get favours from him as a police officer because you were paying him?---I got no favour from him. Were you led to expect that if you paid him money, you would get something in return?---If I pay him the money at the end of the - - final of the investigation they investigate and if the money is not part of the fraud money or whatever you going to call it, they will return it back to me, yeah. Well, you might just listen to this call which is barcoded D1031865. This is a call which took place on the 18th of October 2002. Again, still it would seem, at least according to your card, before you'd paid any money, but getting close because you say the first payment was on the 25th of October. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9448

B27/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: That was T2 playing his promotion card again, was it?---Mm. In addition to that, however, at the beginning do you remember you said - - when he said "Still looking good for next week?" and you said "Yes, yes, yes" - and remember this is the 18th of October and you - - according to your note, the first payment was on the 25th of October - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9449

B28/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - 25th of October - - ?---Mm hm. - - you then said, "After that I want you to do something for me"?---Yes. And you wanted someone "fucked up" to use your words - - ?---Yes. - - "for good". Did you have somebody in mind that you wanted the subject of some treatment by T2?---No. Not treatment. Actually I want to find out where this particular person live. Right?---Yeah. That was what I - - nothing more than that. But you didn't say, "I want you to find out for me where someone lives"?---Yeah. I screw him up because he owe me some money and keep dragging me on and on and on. And I got the number plate of his car, but that turn out to be the wrong car. Wrong person. I thought I got that number plate, yeah. Had you been led to believe by T2 that if you started to pay money then he'd be able to do favours for you?---No. Did you expect that if you paid him money he would do favours for you?---No. Because what the - - the money I'm paying him is the money that I borrow. I didn't give him any other money, no. You did seem to say that, in effect, "When I pay you the money next week I want you to do something for me"?---Yeah. That was the one regarding that car number plate, yeah. Well, you didn't say that?---Nothing - - You said you wanted someone "fucked up for good"?---Yeah, but that was - - it never happen. And I got the wrong number plate, got the wrong person, everything. It was a small debt owing to me. It's got nothing to do with this. Right?---Yeah. Nothing. I was trying to find the person where he lives to approach him, that's all. But you did ask T2 to find that person, didn't you?---Yes. But I give the wrong number. I mean, I give a number plate which is wrong. Don't belong to him at all, no. And he did check the computer for you to find the number, didn't he?---Yes, he did. Yeah. Did you expect him to do that because you'd been paying him money?---Oh, no. No. No. No. I just - - this is one - - just one-off thing. I'm trying to track this particular person down, yeah. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9450

B28/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: You might just - - ?---And then after that I got the proper number plate; then he give me the name of the person, yes. Would you listen to this call, which is barcoded D1031991? This is a call which took place on the 30th of October?---Mm. According to your card you'd started the first payment on the 25th of October. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Is that a recording of a conversation between you and T2 when you gave him the name of the person who you wanted him to check out?---Yes. Was he somebody who owed you money?---Yes. Why did you ask T2 - - ?---I don't know where he lives. - - to help you?---I do not know where he lives. Right?---I give - - as I say earlier on, I got a number plate but I give the wrong number plate, wrong information. Then I say if I got his hand phone number can you help me? So I give him his mobile - - mobile phone number and at the end I got the address. And you expected T2 to check the police computer system, did you, to try and find the address - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9451

B29/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - find the address?---I don't know he find it. I ask him, "Could you help me to find out this person?" and he say he could. Whether he go to the police record or other means I do not know. Well, how else was he going to find out the address?---I don't know. I don't know. Would you listen to this call, which is barcoded D1031990, which is on the following day, the 31st of October 2002, at 1623 hours. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Did T2 give you the bloke's address?---Yes. Were you saying it was the wrong address or something? ---No. When I gave him the registration - car registration number plate - it was the wrong - - wrong one. Right?---But when I give him the mobile phone number he track it down for me. Yes. He was able to come back to you the next day with that address?---Yes. The person's address, was he?---He did. Yeah. Were you able to go to that person?---He happen to live two, three street away from me and - - yeah. Did you ask T2 to help you again to - - ?---No, no, no. I - - - - get the money from him?---Just to - - just to get the address for me, that's all. Yeah. Just to get the address. You say according to the card that you kept that the 25th of October was the first payment - - ?---Mm hm. Would you listen to this call, which is D1031869, which is a call on the 25th of October, the same day, at 11.35 am. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9452

B30/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: This is the day on which you made the first payment, according to your record, of $400?---Mm. You did talk on this occasion of keeping money aside, and by opening an account and putting some money in it in 6 weeks' time, you'd finish paying everything?---Mm. That seems to be different from what you were saying earlier, about endeavouring to get a credit card so that you could draw on it?---I did all kind of things. I want to do these, but never - - never happen. Just that simply - - I just simply don't have money. Yeah, it's simple. Simple as that. T2 said: "Okay, mate, if you've got something for us today,

I'll be over there about 1 o'clock." I sense that might be just a manner of expression, but he did seem to talk about payment to "us". Did he ever indicate to you that he was to share the money with any particular individual?---Not that I know of. No. Throughout all of these dealings that you had with T2 about paying back the $5000, did you ever have any communication with (...name suppressed...) about paying money?---No, not to (...name suppressed...) no. Did he ever at any time raise with you the question of the $40,000 going into trust? (...name suppressed...)?---No, (...name suppressed...) - - when - - the very first time the money was taken, to money from me, I have never seen (...name suppressed...) there after. And throughout all this time, when T2 was hassling you for money, you didn't have any communication with (...name suppressed...)?---No, no. Would you listen to this next call which was on the same day? It's barcoded D1031870. This is still on the 25th of October, the day when your card says you made the first payment. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: And according to your card, he must have come later that day and picked up $400?---Sometimes he say he's coming, but sometime he don't show up. Except that your card says that on the 25th of October, which is the same day, you paid him $400?---Yes, yes. Yes. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9453

B30/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: The card says that on the next occasion, was the 1st of November?---Mm. Would you listen to this call, which is barcoded D1031873. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9454

B31/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: And according to your card, as I mentioned, on the 1st of November, the same day, you paid $300. That would seem to indicate that T2 turned up, as he said, later in the afternoon and - - ?---The card is accurate. - - he got some money. Now, the next date on the card that you've nominated is the 13th of November. Before I just get to that date can I play you a call on the 8th of November, which is D1031889? It's another reference to "the boss". AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Again that seems to be a reference by T2 to a boss being involved but he never told you who that person was?---No. Until today I've not met the boss or do I know the boss or if there is a boss. Or he might have just been calling your bluff?---I don't know. You say, according to the card, that on the 13th of November you paid $300?---Mm. I won't go into that. There is a recording again of the arrangements to make that payment. The next payment you might remember has a blank date - - ?---Mm. - - because you didn't make a record of it at the time, and the suggestion is that you may have received it on the 21st of January - 21st of November, I'm sorry. Did T2 come to your office on occasions when he didn't get money or did he only come when there was a certainty that you would be able to pay him?---No, he only come for money. He only came for money?---He don't just wander around, no. No, the reason I suggest that the missing date might be the 21st of January is that surveillance on your premises indicated that T2 came to your office on the 21st of November?---Apart from this there was one occasion he came to buy two batteries, sealed batteries for the gold buggy, and that is only time. All right. In any event, according to your note, $200 was paid on that date?---Mm. And you say, according to the card, on the 9th of December last year you paid $150. There's a short call which I might play - D1031888, which is on that same day, the 9th of December 2002. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9455

B32/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: That call seemed to be consistent with your card that on that day you made a payment to T2?---Mm hm. Commissioner, I notice the time. Is that convenient? COMMISSIONER: Yes. We'll adjourn now till 2 o'clock. AT 1.01 PM HEARING ADJOURNED .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9456

B33/2 POLICE AT 2.05 PM HEARING RESUMED: COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Laskaris? MR LASKARIS: Good afternoon, Commissioner. I have received instructions to act on behalf of (...name suppressed...). I've spoken to Mr Hastings about this just briefly before you came in. Mr Hastings has advised me that he's likely to call (...name suppressed...) tomorrow in relation to this matter. Could I ask, Commissioner, that the suppression order be made to extend to (...name suppressed...)? I see my friend - - MR HASTINGS: I just don't recall whether - - Commissioner, I'm sure his name won't be mentioned between now and tomorrow. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: So if we could leave it until the morning? I'll have a chance to talk to Mr Laskaris before we go on with it tomorrow. COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR LASKARIS: Yes. May it please you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Hastings? MR HASTINGS: Mr Lau, I want to ask you to listen to another call, which is in January of this year, and it is barcoded D1031899. I asked you before whether you thought that because you were paying money to T2, you thought you could ask favours from him. Do you remember me asking you that?---No, I didn't. I didn't expect any favour from him, but asked him something, if he can get - - help me in certain ways to get information which is good, yeah, but not to get a favour, no. Did he ever offer to do favours for you?---No. This is a call on the 20th of January this year at 11.18 am. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: Do you recall that conversation with T2?---Yes, this is - - Do you remember now what you were talking about?---Yeah, this is regarding my cousin who own a company called (...suppressed...) in Kelvin Road, Maddington. Is a personal thing I want to find out because he been putting every relative name on the board of director and he play? all of us out, so I know if - - find out what can he be charged for or how to get him into trouble. Is a personal matter, this one. Yes?---Mm. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9457

B33/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: But after you had explained that to T2, he then said to you, "You need something done?" Do you remember him saying that in this conversation?---Yeah, but I just want to find out what will happen to this company, is called (...suppressed...) in Maddington. Is my cousin. I want to find out where will he be, what will happen if he use other people name; cousin, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, put them as a director, not to our knowledge. Was it part of your understanding with T2 that because you were paying him money, you could go to him and get things fixed?---No, no, no. Only to find out the truth, what will happen with this other thing. Is he a fraud charge, or is not fraud charge or where do I go? I was finding that information for my own relatives. That's all. Nothing more than that. But having said that, T2 in effect said do you want him to do something - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9458

B34/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - to do something for you?---I say "If they happy, you charge him. If you happy, charge him"; that's all. Nothing more than that. Are you sure it wasn't part of your understanding that - -?---No, no. - - because you were paying him money, you could ask special favours - -?---No. I ask a few other people regarding this - - a few opinions. You know, not only him, no. The man who's come up occasionally in the phone calls who works for you is named Gus, is he not?---Yes. And he sometimes works in the same office as you?---Yes. Did you ever tell him, after a phone call from T2, that you were sick of paying for this special protection money?---I never say "protection money". Special protection - - did you ever say to him "I'm sick of paying this special protection"?---I don't think I recall the conversation at all. I don't think so. The last payment that you have on your card is - -?---Yeah. - - the 22nd of January, I think it is; 22nd of January this year. I'll just play you this call - -?---Mm hm. - - which is on the 21st of January?---Mm. It's barcoded D1031902. It's on the 21st of January at 3.14 pm. AUDIO TAPE PLAYED TO COMMISSION MR HASTINGS: And as your card notes, you paid some money on the next day, the 22nd of January, and in fact we've seen the film of you handing over the money - -?---Yes. - - to T2 this morning?---Mm. Are you sure that when that call finished, you didn't turn to Gus and say you're sick of making these payments?---It's not payment. This money I got to pay, the 5000 I got to pay, no matter one way or the other. I had to pay. It's just that I'm very, very tight with money, that's all, and many times I await the call, you know, "You have the money?" Is a different matter. I just don't have the money, or is very tight, you know. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9459

B34/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Were you, on occasions, avoiding T2 coming because you just didn't want to pay him the money?---Yes. It's not I don't want to pay him the money. I just don't have the money at times, that's all. If I have, I pay it off and finish off, that's all. Did you tell Gus - after that call that I just played that you wanted to - to use your words, "fuck him around"?---I did. Yes?---Mm. Was that because you were getting sick of paying the money?---No, is not sick of paying the money. Just at times, I'm - - "You ring me up every day and I don't have money every day in my pocket." If I have money in my pocket, is a different matter. Did you have a talk to Gus about whether the police were still watching you?---There was some conversation in early this year. If I may bring out a card? Early this year, or towards end of last year, there's Australian communication authority came around my premises with the scanner. Scanner, yeah?---Scanner. Before they arrive, there was some other guy using the scanner and the scanner keep pointing to my side of the building. My building is divided into three units, and then when these people came they say they need to check my office and I say "By all means, go and check." They say there's something disturbing the communication system around Welshpool area, around the airport area. I did not know what it was. I asked him carry on and check and at the end of the day they found some kind of - - I don't know, transformer, receiver. I don't know what is there, and they took it away. Yes?---I got a card. You can speak to the person concerned. But I was asking you whether you had a talk with Gus about whether you might still be under surveillance?---Oh, yeah. I said because of this maybe I could be under surveillance, or what. I'm not sure. People marking? on me, or checking on me, or what. I'm not sure. Because never had this problem before. And wasn't it then that you told Gus that you were sick of paying for special protection from T2 - -?---I never used the word "protection money." No, never did. You did produce to the investigators some copies of - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9460

B35/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - some copies of faxes that you had sent to the police, and the one that you had not sent?---Yeah. Could I ask you to look at another document which has come from the records of the police themselves, which is barcoded D1031185? Do you recognise the handwriting on that document?---Yes. It seems to bear some fax details on the top - - ?---Yeah. - - indicating it was sent on the 20th of March 2001 at 11.47 from your business, does it not?---Yes. And does that seem to be a fax that you sent to T2?---Yes. It concerned the man (...name suppressed...), who had some involvement with the cheque, does it?---Yes. Yes. And there's a second page to it which seems to have your name and a date?---Mm. That, of course, in March was before the question of getting the money back from overseas arose?---Oh, yes. Long, long before, yeah. Thank you. I've finished with that. You also kept some records, did you, of what was happening in June and July?---Mm. If you have a look at these documents, which are barcoded D1034739. Is that your handwriting?---Yes. Is that a copy of an entry you made in a form of diary?---Yes. I - - prior to this I had another diary where it was - - I fill in a lot of things. Basically a book, just putting on all these details. My office was broken into some time during that year and one item missing was that book. So did you try to recreate the entries in the old book - - ?---No. No. No. - - or were these just fresh entries for what - - ?---Fresh entries. - - happened from then on?---Fresh entry. The robbery at your premises was in May of last year, was it?---Some - - somewhere around there. There was a few. There was a few break-in, yes. Was there? When was the break-in when the diary was taken? Was it last year or the year before?---I think last year. I'm pretty sure it was last year or the year before. I'm not too .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9461

7B35/1 POLICE sure. We had a - - because of my premises, it was the end of the street. Whether it been targeted for that reason or not I do not know. But no major thing been taken. A few small item has been taken, yes. MR HASTINGS: There is a report of a robbery at your premises on the 19th of May 2002 - - ?---Mm hm. - - which is described as: "Offenders smashing top glass panel to front door to

gain entry. Once inside have searched office area, desk, cupboards, etcetera. No informant available so no property appears stolen at this time."

Does that seem to be the robbery that you're talking about?---Yeah. Well, that was in May of 2002?---Yeah. I - - yeah; about that time, yeah. A security alarm was apparently set off - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9462

B36/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - apparently set off?---Yeah, but the funny thing about this robbery is normally when the alarm is set off they call me to the premises to say that the place been broken into, but with this one no one inform me. I didn't know about it until the following morning. And then there seems to be another robbery which has been reported on the 29th of June 2000 on your premises? ---As far as I know there were about nine break-ins. Nine break-ins?---Yeah, that's right, yeah, but most of this thing when they break in they did not steal anything but it's always the mess-up of paperwork or item missing. All right. Well, can I go back to the document on the screen? Could you just interpret that for me by reading it? The 19th of June 2001 seems to be the first date. "Office" - - ? ---"Office" - my English is not very good. My spelling is not very good. What I'm trying to say officer - - officer arrive at my home - - I think you just might need to speak up a little louder and nearer the microphone?---Officer arrive at my office 11 am. Told me to lock my office and take me down to the station. "(...names suppressed...) send me back to office at

3.20 pm." Right, and then for the 22nd of June?---I rang (...name suppressed...) regarding the cheque ready of $25,000. Yes, and then the 29th of June?---I rang him again on the same thing. And the 3rd of July 2001?---Yeah, this is all the same thing. I keep on pestering him - - What does that say? "Rang (...name suppressed...)"?---Yeah, "regarding the cheque ready. Say he will see me tomorrow." What's the bottom line say?---I don't really know. All right. We go then to the next document, which is separately barcoded, which is D1034740. Just before we get on to the next document, do you say that this sheet that I just showed you you wrote on each of the days that something happened?---Yeah. Or did you go back later and try and remember what had happened and on the dates that - - ?---Most of my book - - it's more like a diary but I don't have a date on it, is a blank page. .24/03/2003 LAU, J. XN 9463

B36/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Yes?---A blank page. I got two - - two - - two books. Wherever I am I just write it down, you know? Whether I'm in the back office or front office, yeah. Did you write those entries on the dates which are shown? ---Yes, on the same day. Yeah. Why did you write them down?---Well, I was talking with somebody, I saw I was a bit concerned about this, what is happening down here, and advise me to note everything down, whatever happen, should some day something arise, so I do that. Ever since I started writing it. Even the - - to the later stage of the Royal Commission officer that came to my office. I note down whatever I want to note down, just for memory, that's all. But did you write this down for the investigator or had you already written this - - ?---No, it was already there. It doesn't seem to refer to you going to the bank to stop the transfer which, according to the bank document you produced, took place on the 20th of June?---Mm. If we can just go back to the top of that page. You'll see that you start on the 19th of June and then move to the 22nd of June. Do you see that? You start at the 19th of June and then go to the 22nd of June - - - .24/03/2003 LAU, J. XN 9464

B37/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - the 22nd of June. Do you see that? You start at the 19th of June and then go to the 22nd of June - - ?---Mm hm. - - and according to the bank transfer document that we looked at earlier, the action took place on the 20th of June to stop the transfer and get the money back?---Mm. I must have written it somewhere very - - it's in this book or the other book; I do not know. Right?---I must have written it somewhere, yeah. All right. If you can go then to the second of these documents, which is barcoded D1034740. In fact, these may be out of order. The page bears the date 18th of June 2001, and perhaps should have been before the last one. "11.15 am Detective (...names suppressed...) arrive at

office. Detective said that Burwood have said" - something.

What's that next word?---"I cash a few pieces of $50,000 chips." MR HASTINGS: "I said, 'Yes.' I produce document to the officer

with receipt of money - - " WITNESS: "Sent". MR HASTINGS: " - - sent overseas by TT." WITNESS: Mm hm. MR HASTINGS: "Question me and left me - - " WITNESS: "Take me". MR HASTINGS: " - - take me to my home." WITNESS: Mm hm. MR HASTINGS: "From house to bank to stop payment. Belmont. From

bank to police station then" - is it? .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9465

B37/1 POLICE WITNESS: "Send me back". MR HASTINGS: "Send me back to office - - " WITNESS: "Office". MR HASTINGS: " - - at 2.15 pm." Well, again, that seems to be dated the 18th of June, whereas the bank transfer request to send the money back was dated - - seems to have on it anyway the date of the 20th of June. But unless I'm reading it wrongly - - if we could just - - can I have that brought back up, please, which is D1032610? In fact, that might be my mistake. (TO WITNESS): Do you recognise - - this is the document that you provided for the investigators with your handwritten addition in the bottom left-hand corner?---Yeah. It does bear the date 18th of June in the top left-hand corner?---Mm. Mm. But then seems - - in the bottom right-hand corner, under "Branch use" seems to refer to the officer from the bank, (...name suppressed...), doing something on the 20th of June?---Mm hm. Are you able to shed any light on which day it was then that you made the request?---Not really at all. I just go according to document. Not really, no. Well, the 18th of June in fact was the day when the $50,000 was withdrawn from your account to go overseas?---Mm hm. It wasn't on the same day, was it, that you sent the money that you went to stop it?---Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. COMMISSIONER: That just expresses the date issued, doesn't it? The 18th of June. MR HASTINGS: Yes. It's a bit ambiguous, I suppose. It would seem - - it's just referred - - what I'd assume to be the date of the telegraphic transfer - - COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HASTINGS: - - which is consistent with the bank statement which shows the money coming out of the account on the 18th of June, hence I'd assume that the 20th of June was probably the date when the stop was made. MR O'SULLIVAN: I may be wrong, but when I was looking at that bank statement I thought that was the 16th that the money came out of the account. I may be wrong there. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9466

B37/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: No. That's the 18th. The money went in on the 14th and came out on the 18th. (TO WITNESS): Anyway, you can't shed any light on that, Mr Lau?---No. All I can tell you is this thing did take place. The date, well - - All right. We'll seek some clarification from the bank - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9467

B38/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - from the bank. Otherwise, Commissioner, I have no further questions of Mr Lau, thank you. COMMISSIONER: Mr O'Sullivan? MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes, thank you, sir. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR O'SULLIVAN: MR O'SULLIVAN: Mr Lau, you know who we're referring to when we talk about T2, don't you?---Yes. Yes, all right. Do you remember the first occasion that you ever met T2?---It was the early morning that he came with a warrant and some officer to my house. And that was to your house?---Yes. And he came with other officers?---Yes. How many? Do you remember?---Quite a number. All I know is all male and one female. Yes, all male and one female?---Yes. But a number?---Yes. And was (...name suppressed...) there, do you remember?---Yes. Yes, all right, and was that the day that you had the cheque credit on you?---No, no, no. No. That wasn't the day?---No, no. That wasn't - - No. So what happened to you on that day?---They came inside, identified themselves - - That's T2?---T2 and he say, "We got a search warrant." I say, "Yeah, come in." So I open the door and he ask me - - the first thing he ask me do I own a firearm here. I say, "Yes." "Show me." So I took him to the room where I kept my firearm. I show it to him and he check my firearm, and it was all safe, and he give it back to me and the next thing he said, "Bring out all the money that you have in the house, credit card and any chips from the casino", so we produce everything. Yes, and the search was completed there. What happened after the search of the house was finished?---I went back to my office. He ask me a few question about my cards. I say, "I've got some documentation in my office, I can show you in my office" and they left. They all left. I think about three cars. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9468

B38/4 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes?---And (...names suppressed...) came to my office. Later I was in the office. Before they reach my office. Yes?---So I say, "I open the office now, give you the document" and when I open the office, no, he doesn't want to look at any document and ask me am I free to come to the station with them. I say, "Yeah." Yes, and what happened when you got to the station? ---Basically ask me question about all these things, about (...suppressed...). About what, I'm sorry?---About a person name is call (...name suppressed...). Yes?---From (...name suppressed...). Yes, all right. So did you know what they were investigating by then?---First when they came to my house, no, but at the end when they told me what happen then I knew, so I helped them to find (...name suppressed...). Yes, all right?---Mm. And that's what some of these faxes that we've been looking at - - ?---Yes, yes. - - are all about - - ?---Yes. - - isn't it, that you were helping them to try and find the people who had been involved a fraud?---Yeah. Is that right? All right, and did you make any phone call to anybody at the station at that time?---No. (...name suppressed...) - - my phone that - - I call a person called Eddie. I say, "I got nothing - - nothing to do - - I must be banging my table. My phone was not locked", and they accuse me of making a phone call. I say, "No, I did not", and after a few argument and everything settle down when I was going down the lift with them for a smoke again it happen. I bang against the lift, that phone trigger off. I did not make a call. All right. So you weren't asked on that occasion to make any phone call to anybody so that they could listen in on the phone call?---No, I don't think is on that day, no. But that happened later, did it?---Yes. Yes, and was (...name suppressed...) involved in doing that?---Yes. And the purpose of that was, was it not, to see if they could .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9469

B38/4 POLICE get some evidence against somebody else - wasn't it - of what the fraud was?---He asked me to ask (...name suppressed...) whether - - has he got any more chips, that he can bring it over here, I will change it for them, so I - - MR O'SULLIVAN: And the - - sorry?---So I made a phone call to (...name suppressed...) and I think they taped our conversation. And that was - - (...name suppressed...) asked you to do that?---Yes, yes. And the idea was to try and get this man to come back into Australia - - ?---Yes, yes. - - so they could perhaps arrest him?---Yes. Yes?---Yes. All right, but that happened later?---Eh? That happened not on the first occasion but later on?---No, no, no. Later - later on. Yes, all right. Okay, now, there was another occasion they came to your house, was there?---There were a few occasion they come. A few occasions?---Yeah, yeah. Well, what was the occasion when you had the cheque credit taken from you?---I'm not sure where it happen but I was talking to (...name suppressed...), T2 you call him - - Yes?---While I was having my conversations (...name suppressed...) put his hand into my pocket - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XN 9470

B39/3 POLICE WITNESS: - - - into my pocket, my front shirt pocket - - MR O'SULLIVAN: Mm hm?--- - - and took out whatever I have in there and he look through whatever papers and he saw the cheque for $25,000. He hand over to (...name suppressed...). Yes. He gave it to (...name suppressed...)?---Mm hm. And that, you say, was just something to do with your own personal winnings at the casino - -?---Mm. - - and had nothing to do with any other matter?---Nothing. Nothing to do whatsoever. Yes. And subsequently you got that back?---Yes. And who gave it back to you? Do you remember?---(...name suppressed...). (...name suppressed...) gave it back?---Yeah. Do you remember when that was?---Not really. All right. How much contact did you have with the police officers up to the point where you went and tried to retrieve the money that had been sent through the bank?---A lot. I was helping them to track these people down and also there was a lady involved in this as well, but she was locked up in the women prison - - Yes?--- - - and they ask me whether I could help them to get more information from this lady. When you say "they asked" you, who asked you?---Oh, (...names suppressed...). I think it's (...name suppressed...), yeah. Yes, all right. And was (...name suppressed...) still involved in the matter at that point or not?---I don't - - actually, I don't think so. I don't think so. Because he dropped out of it at some stage, didn't he?---Yes. Yes. Because in fact he moved, didn't he? Were you told that he'd gone and worked somewhere else?---No. I ask - - I say "What happen to (...name suppressed...)? Don't come no more" and he say he's moved to another department or something, or transfer. I'm not sure where. I'm not sure. So that was T2 told you that?---Yeah. Yeah. All right?---The reason I ask because I always see them together usually. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XXN 9471

B39/3 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: All right?---Yeah. And then we came to the date, whatever date it was - the 18th or the 20th of June - when you went to the bank - -?---Mm. - - to tell the bank to cancel the transaction sending the money overseas?---Mm hm. Whatever date that was. (...name suppressed...) was there then, wasn't he?---The stopping? Yes, the stopping?---Yes, (...name suppressed...). Yes. In fact, it was his idea, wasn't it, to do that, or don't you know?---Both of them were there first. Both of them?---Yeah. All right. Okay. So they both knew that that's what you were going to the bank to do?---Yes, asked me to go and do it. Yes. And they went with you?---Yes. And they stayed outside?---Yes. And you went in?---Yes. And you did what had to be done in the bank?---Mm hm. And that took a longer time than you thought it would?---Yes. And you were coming out and in fact at the same time(...name suppressed...) was coming in to see what you were doing?---Yes. All right. So did you - - and you had put through the document we've looked at - -?---Yes. - - and the transaction was stopped?---Mm hm. - - and you were only able to stop the last one?---Yes, and there was no guarantee as well. The bank say they - - after when I meet (...name suppressed...) outside, he ask me what did the bank say. I say "The bank say if the money has gone oversea and if the person over there have cash it out, there's nothing they can do." Yes?---"But if the money is still there, hopefully they can do something and return it." Yes. And the idea of that was this money was thought to be the proceeds of a fraud, wasn't it?---He's think it is. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XXN 9472

B39/3 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: That's what the police were telling you they thought, wasn't it?---Yeah, they think it is, yeah. And the idea was to get it back so it could be paid back to the people who'd been defrauded, wasn't it?---No, no. No, that was not the idea. He say "Send it back. Tell them the money is here, or we send it again, try to track these people." So it would be used to track the people who had - -?---Yeah. - - committed the fraud?---Yes. Right. Okay. So that happened and in the end it was only the one 50,000 transaction less a bit of cost money - -?---Yes. - - that came back to you?---Yes. And that took quite a bit of time - -?---Yes. - - and you didn't get that back into your account apparently, on the papers, till the 31st of July?---Yes. Yes, all right. And in the meantime, you were sending faxes to the police about the fact that it hadn't arrived and - -?---Mm. Because from time to time they call me to ask me about the money. Did you have any contact with (...name suppressed...) after the time you stopped the payment?---No, I don't think so. No? All right. So after that, all your dealings were with T2?---Yes; (...name suppressed...), yes. And after (...name suppressed...) got out of the matter, was no longer around, did T2 have another partner with him? Anyone else with him - - - .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XXN 9473

B40/1 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: - - - anyone else with him?---On first few occasion there was - - he came with a guy or two to ask me something about a lady in the prison, or ask me if - - try to find out more information about (...name suppressed...). Yes, there was one or two officer come with him. Thereafter, no; he was on his own. After that he was on his own?---Yeah. And when those one or two officers came with him, was that after the bank stoppage or before?---Oh, I can't recall that. You can't really recall?---No. But anyway, it was after (...name suppressed...) didn't seem to be around any more?---Yes. Yes. Yes. All right. Okay. And so then eventually you told Mr T2 that the money had arrived back in your account?---I sent him a fax, but according to him he did not receive the fax. He came to my office with (...name suppressed...) and asked me about has the money come in; I say, "Yes. It came in." I say, "I have - - I send you the fax." He say, "No. I did not receive it." And the next question was asked by (...name suppressed...), did I spend any of the money, and I said, "No. I did not touch any of it." How long after the stoppage was this conversation?---Pardon? How long after you'd stopped the payment was this conversation?---That was a conversation after the day or two when the money arrived back. After the money arrived back?---Yes. So after the 31st of July?---Yeah. Yes. All right. But certainly before the 23rd of August when you paid it over to - - ?---Oh, yes. - - T2?---Yes. A long time before that?---Yes. Yes. So close to the 31st of July and still a fair way away from the 23rd of August?---Yeah. Is that right?---Yes. Yes. All right. So was that the last time you saw (...name suppressed...) in relation to the matter?---The last time I saw (...name suppressed...) when he came and ask me, "Has the money arrive?" and - - and after that never see him again. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XXN 9474

B40/1 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: Never see him again?---Yeah. So that was shortly after the 31st of July?---That's right. Yeah. And then you never saw him again?---No. So after the money - - well, in that conversation you had already told them the money had arrived, had you?---Yeah. They ask me, yes. So (...name suppressed...) knew the money had arrived?---Yes. Yes. All right. So then were you told - - did he tell you at that time, or did anyone tell you at that time what you were to do with the money?---He said, "Leave it there, then we give you instruction." Leave it till you got instruction?---Yeah. All right. And what was the first instruction that you got about it?---The first instruction I got was from (...name suppressed...). He say he has a discussion with his boss and realise that I'm not part of it. "I will just make use of it, so we - - we want you to get off it." You know, "We know you are not involved in this." And the boss say the leftover money got to hand it in and put it into a trust account of some kind. All right. So this was T2 telling you to do this?---Yeah. Yes. And that he had discussed it with his boss?---Yes. And I think you've told us before that you don't know who his boss was?---No. You never knew his boss was?---No. And he didn't give you any name?---No. No. And you agreed to go along with that?---Yes. And that's why you took the money out - - ?---Yes. - - as you've told us you did on the 23rd of August?---Yes. And gave him - - you took out 45,000 - - ?---Mm hm. - - and you gave him effectively 45,000 and asked for 5000 back. Is that the way you put it?---Mm. "Can I borrow - - can I borrow 5000 from you? First I make use of it and I pay you back." And he say, "Okay." .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XXN 9475

B40/1 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: And then the 5000 you've told us you were being - - it was annoying you to pay back the $5000 over the next year or so?---I will pay back. It's just that when the time he ask me he was putting a lot of pressure on me and I was - - I don't have much money with me. Business was not going - - doing good, and also he emphasise that because of my stuff up for not paying him in time - - in time, that he didn't get his promotion to be a senior sergeant. Yes. All right. And you got no receipt from T2 for the 40,000 that he took away?---No. No. Or from anyone else, for that matter?---No. And you don't know what happened to that money?---Well, as far as I'm concerned at that time I think it was still under investigation to see whether this money is part of the - - for the money or what. At the end of the day, if everything is clear they will return it back to me. That's my understanding. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XXN 9476

B41/5 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: So that was an understanding from T2?---Yeah. That if the money was found to be clean - - ?---Yeah. - - or not involved in a crime - - ?---Yeah. - - that you would get it back?---Yes. Yes. All right. Okay. But you don't know, after it was handed to T2, what he did with it?---I've got no idea. He being a police officer, I don't ask. Sure; and you certainly don't suggest that (...name suppressed...) got any of it, do you?---During that period of time I never see (...name suppressed...). But you're not suggesting he got any of the money, are you?---Oh, no. No. Okay. All right. Just to finish it off, you didn't see (...name suppressed...) again in relation to this matter, or at all. Is that right?---At all; yeah. Not at all?---Not at all. Have you seen him around in this room today at all?---Just today I saw him downstairs - - You saw him in the room?---Yeah. Is that the first time you've seen him - - ?---In the room? You've seen him here, have you?---No; downstairs. Downstairs? Okay. Is that the first time you've seen him for a long time? Is it?---Yeah. Thank you, Mr Lau. COMMISSIONER: Mr Laskaris, do you have any questions? MR LASKARIS: No, thank you, Commissioner. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LASKARIS COMMISSIONER: Mr Hastings? RE-EXAMINED BY MR HASTINGS QC: MR HASTINGS: Mr Lau, I showed you the notes which you said you'd written at the time, relating to the 18th of June, the 19th of June and the 22nd of June, 2001, etcetera?---Mm. .08/04/2003 LAU, J. XXN REXN 9477

B41/5 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Is this the book from which - - ?---This is one of the book; yes. In this book, which is a silver notebook with the name "Malaysia Airports" on the outside - - there seems to be nothing else in it, other than the notes you've made which we've seen on the screen, plus some notes in the pages following, of your contact with the investigators from the Royal Commission?---As I said earlier, there was another book that was full of all this sort of thing. Unfortunately I can't find it no more. It was the last of what I had written down all day?; yes. But I thought you said earlier that you'd made these notes of the 18th and 19th of June, etcetera - - ?---Mm hm. At the time?---Yes. Depending - - as I say earlier, I've got two books. It's depending where I am. Normally I use one book only. One is inside my office and one is outside my office. I just scribble them. Why didn't you scribble something else in this book - because the rest of it's entirely blank?---I got few other book there, laying in the office. And it seems the same blue pen is what you've used to write the entries for the 18th of June 2001, and the entries for March of this year, when you were spoken to by investigators?---I always use the same pen. All right?---The same pen. You're sure you just haven't made up these notes for the 18th of June 2001 and the 19th - - ?---No. I tell you why I did not - - - - as a reconstruction?---Why I tell you I did not, because when the Royal Commission officer came to my office, I just took the book and show it to him. All right. Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: May he now be released? MR HASTINGS: Yes. Thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes. You're excused from further attendance under the summons, Mr Lau?---Thank you. WITNESS WITHDREW MR HASTINGS: I call (...name suppressed...), Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: Can I have your full name, please, detective? .08/04/2003 LAU, J. REXN 9478

B41/5 POLICE (...suppressed...) COMMISSIONER: Do you have any conscientious objection to taking an oath on the Bible? (...name suppressed...): No, sir. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. If you'd take the Bible and read the oath out aloud, please. (...name suppressed...) sworn: MR HASTINGS: Commissioner, it might be remembered that Mr O'Sullivan asked earlier for a suppression order for (...name suppressed...), and I ask that it be deferred. I've had an opportunity now to see the document to which Mr O'Sullivan referred earlier, and I have no objection to the non-publication order being made in respect to (...name suppressed...)'s appearance as a witness. COMMISSIONER: Yes. I direct that no information or evidence or photograph or representation is to be published which might enable this witness to be identified as a witness of this Commission or as a person referred to in the evidence. I direct that there is to be no publication of his name. MR HASTINGS: Thank you. EXAMINED BY MR HASTINGS QC: MR HASTINGS: (...name suppressed...), according to the records that I have, which are not by any means guaranteed as being accurate - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9479

B42/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - as being accurate, you went to (...suppressed...) on the 24th of November 2000?---That sounds about right, yes, sir. And then were transferred out on the 17th of August 2001?---Late July/August, yeah. I can't remember off-hand, yes. Around those times. I've actually got your journal, I think somewhere. We can check that. You were then posted to (...suppressed...), according to my note?---(...suppressed...), actually. Which is part (...suppressed...), in some way - - same district. The (...suppressed...)'s file relating to the (...suppressed...) fraud seemed to indicate that the bank involved made a request for an investigation on the 20th of January 2001. Do you recall that independently, or - -?---No, I wasn't actually assigned this investigation as such. I assisted in certain points throughout it, but I've got no knowledge of the dates or whenever the investigation was brought to the attention of the (...suppressed...). Right. Did you understand it to be Detective Sergeant T2's job, in effect?---Yes, I did. Did he have a regular partner, the way things worked in the (...suppressed...) in those days?---No, not really. What happened, I was transferred to the (...suppressed...) and upon my arrival initially, Detective Sergeant T2 was on - - I think it was either sick leave or annual leave. I was given, I think it was, either two or three detectives to supervise and shortly after that, (...name suppressed...) returned from sick leave, and his role was to - - he was the nominated team leader of that team. Do you recall the circumstances in which you first had anything to do with the investigation into the (...name suppressed...) fraud?---Yes, I do. What caused that to happen?---My first recollection of my involvement was when we executed a search warrant at the premises of Joseph Lau. I don't know the exact date of that. But it was the search warrant he was talking about here today. From that point on, did you become part of the investigation?---Not - - not as such. I was on the same team as Detective Sergeant T2, but I had other responsibilities and other investigations. When he required the whole team, obviously on that day when we did the first search warrant, I assisted, and subsequently we developed some rapport with Mr Lau and I was involved in several meetings between myself, (...name suppressed...) and Mr Lau. .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9480

B42/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Did Detective Sergeant T2 remain effectively the officer in charge of the investigation?---Yes, he did. There's a note in your journal indicating that on the 22nd of February, it reads: "Then attention to (...suppressed...). Surveillance

of POI's home address, (...suppressed...) and then of his business, Tiger Batteries, Welshpool."

Which I think is a few days, in fact, before the search warrant was executed on the 26th of February?---Okay. Yeah well, perhaps we did some initial inquiries before we executed the search warrant, but from my memory, I thought my first knowledge of the investigation was when we did the search warrant. Oh, obviously perhaps the night before, because perhaps he would've had to brief - - brief the team the night before. I think we went there early in the morning to do the search. Before or in the course of the surveillance on the 22nd, or the execution of the search warrant on the 26th of February, did you become acquainted with the file, in the sense of understanding what the allegations were?---Yes. I - - I didn't actually read the entire file. It was only from briefings from Detective Sergeant T2. But I notice your journal says that on the 28th of February, which was 2 days after the search warrant, you went to Burswood Casino for a meeting with a person there regarding the (...suppressed...) file - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9481

B43/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - the (...suppressed...) file; do you recall that?---Yes. Detective Sergeant T2 seemed to have a very good relationship with the manager of the security there. I'd never actually met him before until that date, and he - - he was gathering information regarding this investigation from the chief of security at the casino. Right from the outset, the information from the bank had pointed to Lau being complicit in the offence, did it not?---Yes, it did. Hence your reference to him as a POI in your journal on the 22nd of February?---Yes. Because he was a reasonably obvious suspect because of his involvement in processing the $1.5 million through his account and converting it into casino chips shortly afterwards?---Yes. That's correct. Did it strike you then that there was the prospect, at least, of him being charged with money laundering?---Yes, it did. Was there a point at which he was no longer suspected of that offence?---From my point of view, no. He remained a suspect?---Yes. And indeed I think, judging from your journal, right up to the time when you left the squad you had been taking steps, had you not, to institute a telephone intercept on Lau's phone?---Yes. Obviously I wasn't the investigating officer but I was trying to encourage Detective Sergeant T2. I'd made approaches to the AFP and the NCA to assist us with this inquiry, which one of those inquiries I would have really enjoyed to get my own hands on to, but it wasn't my inquiry and I left shortly afterwards. But it had the potential of being a very good investigation. Your journal indicates that towards the end of your stay in the (...suppressed...) area there seemed to be some disputation over whether a warrant could be taken out for the interception of Lau's phone; do you remember that?---Yeah. Without reading my diary notes I'll be guessing a little bit, but I think perhaps with the lawyer up there there might have been some dispute between myself and him. Well, just reading between the lines, your journal certainly refers to conflict with (...name suppressed...) - - ?---Yes. - - who is a legal adviser for (...suppressed...)?---Yes. You may correct me, no doubt, but it seems as though you had been urging that a warrant be taken out to intercept Lau's phone, but you were meeting some opposition from the in-house .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9482

B43/1 POLICE legal adviser?---I think what was happening at that stage at the (...suppressed...) I suppose - - at the time they were pouring a lot of resources into the Finance Brokers Inquiry and I suppose I was getting a bit disheartened because I could see the potential for some of these type of investigations which we should be putting more resources into them. And I think that may be the basis why I did leave the squad early as well. I was a bit disheartened. MR HASTINGS: May we take it from what you say that, first of all, this seemed like a reasonably serious offence, did it not - - ?---Yes. - - because there'd been a fraud of $3 million?---Yes, it did. And a reasonably sophisticated offence because of the way in which it had been perpetrated?---Yes. And similarly, you, may we take it from what you've said, had a reasonable view that there was a prospect of being able to charge Lau if he'd been properly investigated?---Yes. But I think I was trying to encourage maybe Detective Sergeant T2 to perhaps - - I didn't believe Lau was the major person involved in this, but perhaps we could have used him to capture the other people involved. Lau had, in the first half of 2001, provided some assistance, had he not, in the sense that he was providing information about the possibility of some of the accomplices being in the country and/or being in particular locations such as the airport or the casino?---Yes. I've heard that evidence today, but perhaps what I'm thinking is I wasn't privy to a lot of that information. I've seen that now. I do recall at one stage Mr Lau mentioning that he sent a fax or some faxes, but myself, I don't think I was ever shown any of those faxes. A running sheet was kept, was it not, with respect to the investigation?---Yes, it was. That was kept by the case officer, Detective Sergeant T2. I didn't ever really go over the whole file, but I saw what he had there. I think he had either two or three - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9483

B44/2 POLICE WITNESS: - - - had either two or three lever arch folders with information in it. I was aware he was having a file review at least once a fortnight by the operation manager at the (...suppressed...), so it appeared to me that at that stage he was conducting the investigation appropriately. MR HASTINGS: The running sheet was maintained electronically, was it?---I don't know. Was that the usual procedure within the (...suppressed...)?---It differed from person to person. Some people would perhaps hand write it and then update it, maybe on a weekly basis electronically. Or some people would do it straight away electronically. The entry in the running sheet for the 26th of February, which was the day on which the search warrants were issued at the home and office of Lau reads: "Detective (...names suppressed...) attend at

(...suppressed...), and execute search warrant. Nil items seized. Occupant, Joseph Lau, was interviewed at premises and then conveyed to office of (...suppressed...) and further interviewed. Lau taken to work premises at completion of interview."

Did you have any part in the interviewing of Lau?---No. Were you aware whether he was interviewed in any formal way?---Yeah, I presume that's the reason he was brought back to the office, to be interviewed formally, yes. There do seem to be some notes on the file which purport to record information which looks like it's come from Lau. If I can find them, I'll ask that they be brought up. It's barcoded D1031198. Is that your handwriting?---No. Obviously not. Have you seen those notes before?---I don't know if I've seen the actual notes, but the actual gist of the information there I am aware of, yes. And that was the explanation generally given by Lau, was it not, at the time?---Yes. But you have no knowledge of the circumstances in which the notes were made?---No, I haven't. Thank you. Your diary, or journal, for the day, the 26th of February 2001 reads: .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9484

B44/2 POLICE "Office briefing regarding (...suppressed...), then to

(...suppressed...), execute search warrant. Then to occupant's business address, POI Joseph Lau. Tiger Batteries."

And the name of the street in Welshpool: "Convey Lau to office and interviewed. Then return

Lau to work address. Return to office." Were you meaning to convey by that, that you participated in the interview of Lau?---No. MR HASTINGS: It says "convey - -"?---It's quite open, I suppose. When you say "Lau interviewed"? Well, your words are, "Convey Lau to office and interviewed. Then return Lau to work address"?---I don't think that - - the way I've written that doesn't necessarily infer that I interviewed him. All right. Perhaps if we cut to the chase, then? Do you recall that in June some information was received from the casino that Lau had been at the casino, cashing chips?---Yes. It had been known from the first time that the matter was referred by the bank that the money which went through Lau's account was - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...). XN 9485

B45/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - through Lau's account was converted ultimately into $50,000 casino chips, was it not?---That's correct. And the information which came from the casino in June was that he'd been back in the casino cashing $50,000 chips?---That's correct. Did you go to Lau then, with Detective Sergeant T2, in order to raise that matter with him?---Yes, we did. Is it correct that you discovered that he had recently negotiated these chips and sent the money overseas?---Yes. Did you discover that the last one had been sent in circumstances in which it may have been retrievable?---Yes. Is it correct that you then went to the bank so that Lau could go into it and make arrangements to try to retrieve the money?---Yes; or to stop the transaction urgently. I thought that it was important to get that done quickly. And get the money back?---Yes. Why did you do that?---He'd explained to us that he'd only done that in the last - - I just heard his evidence now, but I think it was 1 or 2 days. Actually, thinking back on it now, I think it was my - - my suggestion that we attend to this ASAP because if we had to go back to the office, get a warrant and so forth, it could take unnecessary time and he - - he was consenting to do this. The - - I didn't know what the chances were that the money's already gone and it was gone forever. I didn't really know, and well, obviously, that wasn't the case at the end of the day, but yeah, that's the reason we did it; the urgency in the matter. The chronology seems to be, first of all, using Lau's bank account, that he had received the last $50,000 from the chip on the 14th of June because there's a credit to his account for $50,000 on the 14th of June, and then on the 18th of June that money was withdrawn, consistent with the money having been transferred overseas. I don't know whether you're able to see on the screen where you are that the bank transfer document that he produced to investigators seems to indicate that it may have been on the 20th that he went to the bank to stop the transfer and retrieve the money. Are you able to shed any light on the sequence of events, or the dates of them?---No. Well, a clue might be that in your journal - - perhaps I might, in fairness to you, have it brought up. It's barcoded D1032480. On the 20th of June you record: .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...). XN 9486

B45/3 POLICE "Going to Bill Hughes - -" Who was the casino person, was he not?---Yes, that's correct. "- - regarding Lau, (...suppressed...) file." Then it says: "To Tiger Batteries, Welshpool. Speak with Lau. See

running sheet as prepared by (...name suppressed...)." Just have a look. Have you seen the latter - - bottom half of the entries to "Casino. Speak with Bill Hughes." There seems to be nothing in your journal in the days preceding that to show you had anything to do with (...suppressed...). So would that appear to indicate that that was the 20th when the news came from the casino that Lau had been back, cashing - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9487

B46/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - back cashing casino cheques?---Yes, it could do, but I'm - - from memory, we did go and see Mr Hughes on several occasions but, yes, I think we can possibly draw that inference on that. Well, insofar as your journal defers to the running sheet, I can take you to that - if I can have, please, the document barcoded D1031680. This seems to be the running sheet for the (...suppressed...) fraud file. Have you seen it before?---Yes. We're on the first page - if we can go to the next, please, and go to the bottom of it. (TO WITNESS): You'll see the last entry on that page is the 26th of April 2001, which is: "Instructed by (...name suppressed...) to cease

inquiry due to Operation Mortgage." Was that a development that you recall that - - ?---Yes, I think that's what I referred to before, about the brokers' inquiry, the finance brokers. Right, and if we go over the page, the next entry is the 20th of June for which there are three entries, recording at 9 o'clock that Bill Hughes, Burswood Casino, telephones and advises that Joseph Lau has been at the casino and cashing $50,000 chips. 10.30 (...names suppressed...) attend at casino and speak with Hughes, "Info obtained re Lau", then 12 o'clock (...names suppressed...) attend at Tiger Batteries and speak with Lau re chips. "Lau stated he went to Singapore and met with a person

he named as (...name suppressed...). He then went with him to KL and was asked to take four $50,000 chips back to Perth and cash them and then transfer the money to an account in KL."

That would seem to make it more clear, would it not, that on the 20th of June this development occurred of the information coming to the casino that he had been back with four chips and when you went to Lau you ascertained that he had recently transferred that money overseas?---Yes. Definitely, now reading the running sheet. Which makes it reasonably certain, does it not, that it was the 20th that you then asked him to take steps to stop the transfer of the money?---Yes. So the question, I suppose, then is why you made no reference to that event in your journal or - - well, in your journal? ---So it's not mentioned in my journal? .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9488

B46/4 POLICE MR HASTINGS: No. Perhaps we can have it back?---Yep. It's D1032480, now in front of you?---Yes, you are correct. There's no entry there in my journal. May I say about that there's probably quite a few things I've done on a daily basis perhaps which I failed to put in, but I would have presumed that at least it would have been on the investigation running sheet. Yes. Well, we've seen that it wasn't?---Yes. I've observed that it wasn't, yes. Right, and indeed, your journal entry defers to the running sheet by saying in the second part of this relevant entry: "To Tiger Batteries, Welshpool. Spoke with Lau. See

running sheet as prepared by (...name suppressed...)." WITNESS: Yes. MR HASTINGS: I suppose one ought to at least ask you whether you deliberately omitted that from your journal because you did not want it recorded that Lau had been asked to bring the money back?---No, that's definitely not the case. Definitely not the case. Because it now seems reasonably clear that when the money did come back it was not dealt with properly?---Yes. Well, I must admit I've been quite shocked to hear the evidence which has come out in this Commission the last couple of days, and I can assure you that I've had no involvement whatsoever with any of this, as in the missing moneys. But in those circumstances your omission of any reference to the request that the money be brought back has certain sinister implications, does it not?---My admission here? Yes?---No, I don't think so. Why isn't it in there?---I've actually written down there to see running sheet as prepared by (...name suppressed...). And when we go to the running sheet there's no reference again to any trip to the bank to ask that the money be brought back. .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9489

B47/2 POLICE WITNESS: Well, I suppose when what I've heard over the last two days about what appears to be Detective Sergeant T2's behaviour, I - - you know - - actually, I'm shocked. MR HASTINGS: Well, be that as it may, why is it not in your journal?---I've explained to you that it's not there. It actually makes a reference there, "See running sheet" and that - - I must admit, not on every occasion that I would - - you'd probably find that some days in my journal there, there's some days which are completely blank and I may even just say refer to the running sheet, investigation running sheet. Yes, but here you didn't?---Yes, I did. I said, "See running sheet as prepared by (...name suppressed...)." Well, it's not completely blank, though, is it? It says: "To Tiger Batteries, Welshpool - -" WITNESS: No, no, it's not completely blank, but I was in the habit, on some occasions, of doing that. MR HASTINGS: There would have been no problem with adding an extra line, would there, so it read, "To Tiger Batteries, Welshpool. Spoke with Lau. Then to bank to stop payment of money"?---No, there would have been no problem doing that at all. In any event, you accept, do you, that you were well aware of the fact that Lau had put in motion steps to stop the money being transferred overseas and in fact to bring it back?---Yes. And did you make inquiries of him subsequently, to ascertain whether that had happened?---I can't recall if I made any direct inquiries to him or not. I've heard his evidence here today. He says I did on one occasion, but I seem to recall a phone call from Mr Lau to my phone towards the end of this period, or maybe just before, and I kind of just referred him to Detective Sergeant T2, and I've been thinking about it the last couple of days, trying to find out. I think he - - and I just can't remember what he actually said to me. He rang me up and it was very rare. I don't think he actually ever rang me up throughout this whole - - my involvement in this investigation. The records seem to indicate that you left (...suppressed...) on the 17th of August, as I mentioned, but you might like to check your journal to confirm that. The page is barcoded D1032497. Does that mean something to you?---Yes. That'd be my first day at (...suppressed...). .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9490

B47/2 POLICE MR HASTINGS: Right. The previous day you'd spent still at (...suppressed...), indoor cricket practise, (...suppressed...). It would seem to be the first day of your new posting at the new job, would it not?---Yes, appears to be correct. So in any time before you left for your new posting, did you become aware that the money had come back to Australia?---I - - I can't recall if I was aware or not. I don't think I was aware that it actually came - - had come back. You had continued to have some involvement in the investigation, had you not?---From when I was transferred to (...suppressed...)? Up until the time that you got close to leaving?---Yes, I presume I would've - - I can't recall exactly what involvement I had, but I would've been aware that the investigation was being continued, yes. If I can just remind you, without going through it all in great detail, the 20th of June was the day when it seems that the - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9491

B48/1 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - it seems that the payment was stopped. The 21st of June there's a briefing with (...names suppressed...). And then: "Back to Tiger Batteries, 22nd of June, Operation

(...suppressed...), discuss investigative strategies. To TIU seeking information regarding TI application regarding (...suppressed...). Meeting with squad solicitor."

25th of June: "Arrange meeting with (...name suppressed...)?

regarding (...suppressed...) inquiry. Meeting with (...name suppressed...)."

26th of June, another meeting with the legal officer concerning "conflict over TI submission". 28th of June: "Inquiries re (...suppressed...). Travel movements of

POI. Obtaining PACS? information." Then there's some investigations which went off into the woman who was in a related investigation, was she not?---Yes. I - - (...name suppressed...) somebody?---Yeah. I'd very little involvement. I think, by memory, I assisted on the search warrant of her - - of her house. 4th of July: "Supervision of team and inquiries on hand. Attention

to TI affidavit in (...suppressed...) ." 9th of July: "To Fraud Control Section of the bank. Liaising with

an officer there over (...suppressed...)." 16th of July: "To Burswood Casino, Bill Hughes, regarding (...name

suppressed...) and (...suppressed...) file." 18th of July: "Meeting re investigative strategies for

(...suppressed...) business case submission." 19th of July: "NCA meeting regarding (...suppressed...)." 20th: .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9492

B48/1 POLICE "Attention to business case submission regarding

(...suppressed...) costing analysis." More on the 7th of August "re (...name suppressed...)", which is: "Briefing for search warrant. Attended 95 Armadale

Road, Rivervale. Execute search warrant." 8th of August, back to the same address to execute a search warrant, and then on the 10th of August: "To Rivervale, Tiger Batteries. Speak to Joseph Lau

regarding (...suppressed...) file." I think that's the last entry. That is the 10th of August leading up to your transfer on the 17th?---Yeah. Just listening to those entries there, you can probably observe I was very keen to get this investigation up and - - up and running, and I think I was going all stops at that stage because I could see the potential. You know, this investigation could have been quite - - it was quite a serious offence, from my view. Well, presumably one of the matters that you would have been anxious to know was whether Lau had been successful in getting the money back from overseas?---Yes. We can see from his bank that it came back on the 30th of July, which is before the last of your entries on the 10th of August when you spoke to him. Did you learn at any time up until then that the money was back?---I - - I'm not sure if I was aware or not. I don't know. He mentioned something this morning, or it might have been this afternoon, that he thought part of the purpose in getting the money back was to use it then as a bait in order to track or trap, I'm not quite sure which word he used, the accomplices. Was that part of the strategy?---No. I think that - - I remember his concerns were if the money was stopped, what is he going to say to those people over there. What was he going to do? He was a bit fearful of what was going to happen if the money had been stopped. The initial reaction to go and stop that money was the urgency of it. Up to this day now I presume that Detective Sergeant T2 had made some formal liaison with the bank regarding once it gets returned what happens to it. To hear what came out in evidence today and yesterday, I'm still - - still a bit surreal. Well, given that it was your idea, it seems, in the first place to stop the money, how is it that up to and including the 10th of August, by which time the money was in fact back, you seem not to know of it - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN 9493

B49/3 POLICE MR HASTINGS: - - - know of it?---I don't know. Perhaps I'm - - when I answered that question I said "I'm not sure" but I seem to believe I didn't know the money had been returned. If it had come back, what had you proposed be done with it?---Well, the money would have had to have been seized under some type of warrant and - - and lodged with the Police Department. Did you ever raise with T2, even after you'd left (...suppressed...), whether the money had come back?---I actually recall - - well, upon his arrival - - I'm not exactly sure when he first got there at - - at (...suppressed...), or the (...suppressed...). I asked him "Whatever happened to the (...suppressed...) job?" and he said he'd passed it on to a certain detective there and it was still ongoing. Did he ever advise you, or did you ever ask him whether the money had come back as you had endeavoured to cause to happen?---I'm just trying to think how - - no, I can't recall if I did or not. No. And do we take it from what you've said that you had no idea until yesterday that Detective Sergeant T2 had taken this money when it came back?---Yes. And he hadn't shared any of it with you?---No. Yes. Thank you, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr O'Sullivan? CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR O'SULLIVAN: MR O'SULLIVAN: (...name suppressed...), I think at some stage the Commission investigators asked you for your journals for a spread of time, period of time. Is that right?---That's correct. How long ago was that?---Approximately 2 weeks ago. 2 weeks ago. And did you provide the journals that they asked for?---Yes, immediately. And did you keep a copy for yourself?---No, I didn't. No. So you haven't had the opportunity of looking at your journal over the last fortnight?---No. I actually supplied them the next day. Yes. The journals you provided covered what sort of period?---I think it was about 18 months to 2 years. .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XN XXN 9494

B49/3 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes. When you supplied them, were you given any indication of the particular sort of matter that might be of interest?---No. No. All right. Now, you've been asked some questions about the absence from your journal of any reference to the stopping of the overseas payment and your reference to the running sheet. Who kept the running sheet in this case?---Detective Sergeant T2. And how was it kept?---Well, I - - I saw the one on the screen there. It was a electronic version. Yes. Do you know whether he did it in one of the ways you mentioned - by doing it immediately and electronically or by doing it in some form of handwriting or typing, and then transferring it to electronic form?---No, I don't know. Yes, all right. Apart from it obviously being kept electronically, was it the practice, or did you know whether T2 kept a copy of the running sheet on the file in hard copy?---I'm unaware. When you wrote the note in your journal, did you at that time check to see what was in the running sheet in relation to the matter?---No. No. Why did you refer to "see the running sheet prepared by the other detective" if you didn't know what was in it?---Oh, I just presumed that he would record everything we done in the investigation in the running sheet, which was normal practice to record everything. Yes. In terms of it being the normal practice, was it the normal practice because it was just done that way or was it the normal practice because there was a direction that it should be done that way?---Expectation that it was done that way. Yes. Is that what you're trained to do and what you're expected to do within the office structure?---Yes. Yes, all right. And was your journal subject to review from time to time by superior officers?---Yes, it was. And in relation to the dates that we've just been looking at, would your journal have been looked at by superior officers?---Yes. Or a superior officer, presumably?---Yes. .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XXN 9495

B49/3 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: Mm hm. And if there was something deficient in that journal, were you told to rectify it from time to time?---Yes. And were you told to do anything about this particular journal?---No. You say that in your recollection it was not unusual for you to make a mention of something within your journal and - - or simply to make a reference - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XXN 9496

B50/2 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: - - - to make a reference straight to a running sheet?---No, it wasn't unusual to do that. It was done on occasions. So did you think there was anything unusual about the way you did this particular entry?---No. Was there any reason you felt that you should be more elaborate within the journal about that particular transaction?---Oh, I can see from here now that when I walk away from the Commission, I'll be recording everything I do for every second of the day. That's the way I feel at the moment. Yes. I suppose the - - what happened on that day, when you took Mr Lau to the bank, it's not something you do every day?---No. No. What was the purpose of your endeavouring to get the money back? What were you going to achieve by doing that?---It was the - - the urgent nature of the situation where that money could've been forwarded on to the people in Malaysia at any time. If we had to go back without his consent and get a warrant and so forth, it could have taken quite some time. I think every second, at that stage, counted. Yes. That deals with the timing of it, but what was the purpose of it? I mean, why bother to get the money, try and stop the money going away?---Oh, so obviously we could get some back for the complainant. Mm, and that was the bank?---Yes. And it was the bank which was loser in these transactions ultimately, was it?---That's correct. All right. So, I think you said that at - - it was put to you that you transferred out of the position where you were dealing with this particular matter and went to (...suppressed...), part of (...suppressed...)?---Yes. And I think you were saying at some stage that T2 ended up also in (...suppressed...). Is that right?---That's correct. And that you had a conversation with him about this particular investigation?---Yes. And what was that conversation?---I asked him what was the result of the (...suppressed...), and he advised me it'd been handed over to somebody to take over. Who was that somebody?---A (...name suppressed...), I think he said. (...name suppressed...). .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XXN 9497

B50/2 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: Did you follow it any further than that?---No. No. All right. Okay. I think you were asked some questions concerning - - well, sorry, asked some questions, and in response to them you said you - - they were questions about whether you knew whether the money had in fact come back into Mr Lau's account and you said you had a - - you have a recollection of there being a phone call to you, perhaps, from Mr Lau which you passed on to T2. Mr Lau had your phone number - - sorry, you have to say "yes" or "no". The microphone doesn't pick up a nod or a shake?---Oh, sorry. Yes. Yes, and in - - do you know how he got that number?---Yes, from the business card which was presented today, which was written by Detective Sergeant T2's handwriting on the back of his business card. Yes, all right. So the card that we saw on the screen today was in T2's writing, but with your - - that was your direct contact number, was it?---Yes. So it wasn't just a matter of dialling the police number and asking for you? It was a matter of getting through to you direct?---That's correct. Yes, and is that the only phone contact that you recall particularly with Mr Lau?---Yes. Yes. All right. Okay. The conversation that you had about what had happened to the investigation after you had got to (...suppressed...) and also T2 had got to (...suppressed...), do you remember how long after you arrived in (...suppressed...) that conversation was?---It was a good - - could've been up to 12 months, because he didn't - - I was out in the district for a good - - I'm just trying to remember the dates now. They said I got there in August. He wouldn't have got there until - - yeah, 8 or 9 months. So certainly it was after the 23rd of August, when we understand these moneys were taken out of the account and given to T2?---Yes. All right. And you've been asked by my learned friend did you get any money at all out of this matter?---No. I got nothing. You've heard evidence about an ongoing, said to be repayment, of $5000. Did you have any knowledge of that?---I've had no knowledge of anything about this. Yes. Certainly, did you get any money out of it?---No. .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XXN 9498

B50/2 POLICE MR O'SULLIVAN: No. Did you - - you heard the evidence about some form of cheque credit, I think it was referred to, that was taken from Mr Lau's pocket on one of the occasions when you were dealing with him, he says by you. Do you remember that?---I recall an occasion, I actually thought it was on the first time that we executed the search warrant at his house - - - .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XXN 9499

B51/4 POLICE WITNESS: - - - at his house but perhaps I'm wrong there. MR O'SULLIVAN: All right?---I don't know if I was the one who seized it or I was with somebody who seized it at the time. But you were aware that there was such a document seized - - ?---Yes. - - from him?---Yes, I was. And what, as far as you were concerned, happened to it?---It was eventually handed to Detective Sergeant T2 and would have gone on to the police property tracing system. So was there a reason for seizing it?---Yes. I believed that could have been part of the proceeds of the offence. You know, I was surprised when Mr Lau suggested that he got that back. All right. So it wasn't you who gave it back?---No. I think Mr Lau says it was given to him by T2?---Yes. All right. Nothing else, thank you, (...name suppressed...). COMMISSIONER: Thank you. MR O'SULLIVAN: And subject to anyone else may, (...name suppressed...) - - my learned friend may wish to re-examine. COMMISSIONER: Yes. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION MR HASTINGS: He can be excused for my part, Commissioner, thank you. COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, detective. You are excused from further attendance under the summons?---Thank you, sir. WITNESS WITHDREW MR HASTINGS: I have no further witnesses this afternoon, Commissioner. Might we adjourn until the morning? COMMISSIONER: Yes. We'll adjourn until 9.45 tomorrow morning. AT 3.36 PM HEARING ADJOURNED UNTIL 9.45 AM WEDNESDAY, 7TH APRIL 2003 .08/04/2003 (...name suppressed...) XXN 9500

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN ANY CORRUPT OR CRIMINAL CONDUCT BY WESTERN AUSTRALIAN POLICE OFFICERS COMMISSIONER: G.A. Kennedy AO QC Held at Perth on the 8th day of April, 2003 Counsel Assisting Mr P. Hastings QC Appearances Mr S. O'Sullivan appeared. Ms L. Boston appeared. Mr P.G. Laskaris appeared. .08/04/2003 9501