richard huemer interview

8/13/2019 Richard Huemer Interview

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Interview of Richard Huemer

1.1. TAPE NUMBER I: Side One, (July 24, 1968

ADAMSON

Just to start with, I'll ask you when you were born.

HUEMER

I was born in Brooklyn, January the second, 1898: the turn of thecentury.

ADAMSON

And you first started to draw at the age of four.

HUEMER

es. If you'll !ardon a turn of the century !un""I first started todraw #y breath at the age of one #inute. I beca#e interested inani#ation when I was about ten years old, and I used to ani#atelittle figures in notebooks, and fli! the#, little figures of bo$ing, orathletic e%ents, and that really was the first ani#ation I e%er did. I

got the idea fro# little !hotogra!hic ani#ation books that werecurrent at the ti#e. Incidentally, that's where &insor c(ay got hisideas to do ani#ation, I understand fro# his son, who# I #et,while we were working on a )isney !icture. *here had been a fire inthe drugstore in the neighborhood, and they found nu#erous ofthese little fli!books, which were about three inches s+uare, andyou fla!!ed the#, and you saw a little scene. I su!!ose they hadbeen fil#s. *hey used to gi%e the# away in drugstores as anad%ertise#ent.

ADAMSON

&ere you scribbling in your own school notebooks

HUEMER

*hat's right. I#itating the#. I was the local high school cartoonist.I went to orris -igh chool in the Bron$, and Ale$ander -a#iltonin Brooklyn. And in both cases I drew cartoons for the annuals, andwhere%er cartoons were needed for bulletin boards. I always likedto draw, in other words.


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*he first fil# I e%er saw was the /elson"0an fight, which was at(oney Island. It was a fil# of the fight, of course. *hey had signsoutside of these little restaurants, which said, 'Basket 2arties&elco#e.' &hich #eant that you could go into these !laces, which

were filled with tables, and #y father would order a glass of beer orcoffee, and hot dogs for us kids, and we would o!en oursandwiches and eat the#, and they would !ro3ect these strange#o%ies. 4ne of which was the /elson"0an fight, and I'# sure wesaw so#e of 5u#iere's and other 6rench !roducer's !ictures then.In shocking !ink color, so#e of the# were. Ani#ated cartoon#o%ies were done then by so#ebody nobody e%er #entions:&allace (arlson. -e did so#ething called ')rea#y )ud.' And I saw

those about 1917 at the local theaters in the Bron$.ADAMSON

*his is after &insor c(ay.

HUEMER

About the sa#e ti#e. I saw his '0ertie the )inosaur' at the (retona*heater in the Bron$ and I was therefore able to recreate it later

on a )isney *.. show, where we reenacted c(ay's !erfor#anceincluding the !icture '0ertie' which, of course, as you know, stille$ists.

ADAMSON

&hat were your reactions to these fil#s

HUEMER

&e didn't ha%e the e$!ression then but if we had, I would ha%e saidI 'fli!!ed.' I really was sold on ani#ated cartoons. In%ol%e#ent withli%e"action fil#s see#ed out of reach. s!ecially as I liked to draw.I s!ent about a year at art school: Art tudents' 5eague, in /ework (ity. I studied under Bridge#an, the fa#ous anato#y teacher.;eally was fa#ous. )idn't rub off #uch on #e though.

ADAMSON

&hat did you do, 3ust sketch nudes and things

HUEMER


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es, that's right. tudied anato#y and !ainted a little. But I alwayswanted to be a cartoonist.

ani#ating business. &hen ;aoul Barre 5ooked u! fro# his desk andsaid, 'what can I do for you' in his strange (anadian brogue, Isaid, 'I would like a 3ob.' -e said, 'ou would like a 3ob' I said,'es.' -e said, '0o to the ne$t roo# and sit down, they'll !ut you towork.' It was as si#!le as that. And they !ut #e to work atso#ething that was called tracing.

*his was about 191= and they were doing utt and Jeff cartoons. I

had to +uit high school to go to the 5eague, that's how #uch Iwanted to be an artist, and now I was +uitting the 5eague to gointo cartooning. I was abandoning the fine arts. *hey already hadthe cell syste#, but it was not the way it's done today, which is thecells o!a+ued, to fit o%er the background. 4ur cells were used tocontain the background and whate%er lines on a scene were not'disturbed' by the character. All the action was carried on the !a!er.&e inked on !a!er, with %ery flashy techni+ues, in the i#itation of-einrich >ley, once in a while. And I would take a series of cells

that fitted o%er the !a!er to co#!lete the !icture. If the characterwalked in front of an ob3ect, the drawings that it took for hi# to!ass that ob3ect had to ha%e whate%er he 'disturbed' drawn on thatdrawing. *hat's where the tracing ca#e in, we traced that thing inthe background onto those fi%e or si$ drawings while he was!assing the ob3ect. And then that went on celluloid and stayedthere, because he wasn't disturbing it any #ore. But he waswalking in front of so#ething else now, and then that had to betraced. In other words, we broke the scene down into little grou!s

of areas that were disturbed, so that we could trace those onto!a!er. *he foreground stuff was on celluloid, and the ceiling wouldbe on celluloid""which was ne%er disturbed. o it took about threecelluloids. I think that's the #ost we used. And then with the !a!er,you had your co#!lete fra#e. I was doing the tracing, fro# thebackground that so#ebody laid out. I didn't do it %ery long inthree weeks, I was ani#ating. *hat's how easy it was in thosedays.

*he staff consisted of about fi%e ani#ators, and about fi%e or si$tracers. Actually, there weren't #ore than fifteen !eo!le at the


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studio. Barre #ade one fil# a week, that ne%er ran o%er 7?@ feet.And, belie%e it or not, it cost about a thousand dollars. And that'swhat he got for it, about a thousand dollars. *he #ost he e%er gotwas 1?@@ dollars.

ADAMSON

-ow did you get your !ro#otion

HUEMER

By asking for it. And the genial french#an said, '&hy not' -e wasa %ery fine gentle#an. Ani#ation in those days was not a difficultart. If it #o%ed, it was good. Actually, the no%elty carried it. *hebusiness got into trouble when the no%elty wore off, and the !eo!le

e$!ected to see gags, and better ani#ation and better ideas.&hich, of course, )isney e%entually succeeded in doing.

ADAMSON

-ow funny were these fil#s at the ti#e you wandered in

HUEMER

As we used to say in those days, as funny as a crutch. *his was ane$!ression. *hey weren't funny, actually. *hey really weren't. &egot %ery few laughs. I can re#e#ber taking #y fa#ily to see so#ebit of ani#ation I was !articularly !roud of, and, 3ust as it went on,so#ebody behind #e said, '4h, I hate these things.' &e actuallydidn't consider the audiences as #uch as we should ha%e. &e didthings #ore or less to !lease oursel%es. It was as though we wereen3oying oursel%es, doing what we liked, what we thought wasfunny. It was 3ust not understandable to audiences, %ery often. &e

were gi%en a !ortion of the !icture, o%er a %ery rough scenario.ery, %ery sketchy, no boards like we ha%e today, nothing like that.*he scenario would !robably be on a single sheet of !a!er, withoutany #odels, sketches, or anything, you #ade it u! as you wentalong. ou were gi%en a !art of the !icture, and, you did what youwanted. If it was a !icture about iceskating, you took a scene ofso#ebody on ice skates, and you used your own gags, and #ade itall u!. &e had so#e fa#ous !eo!le who ca#e later on to utt andJeff: ilt 0ross was one of the#, and 0regory 5a(a%a worked u!

there a while, and #en fro# the #againes like /anke%ille.

ADAMSON


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-ow were these stories written

HUEMER

&e all hel!ed. &e'd s!end an e%ening talking about it. And that's allit a#ounted to. o#eti#es, if so#ebody had an idea, he would doit hi#self. 0enerally it was !icking a the#e. I can re#e#ber so#eof the titles. 4ne was about house!ainting, and we calledit, Painter's Frolic. /ow, all you did was whate%er you wanted to,anything a !ainter did. Another one was called The Steeple Chase.*his was a roofto! thing. &e did !ictures about -awaii, we'd say,'5et's do a -awaiian !icture.' '6ine. I'll do the surf stuff, you do thecannibals,' or whate%er else. 6i%e ani#ators would do it, and we'd

do it all in a week. o#e artists were faster than others. o#ewere +uite fast. o#e of the# were really slashy with their !entechni+ues.

ADAMSON

5ike &insor c(ay.

HUEMER

*he ne$t thing that really was a tre#endous i#!ro%e#ent was theo!a+ue cell, which *erry was a great de%otee of, when he did hisAeso!'s fables. *erry's cartoons were already a little better. At least,the characters were cute, And at the end of each !icture he'd ha%ea little funny #oral: Aeso! said, '......' *he reason he could #akeslightly better !ictures was because he had a great deal with ;>4,who had bought into his studio, which assured that each one of his!ictures would !lay all their houses, for a good !rice. o *erry wasthe first one to really #ake #oney, in this business. 2at ulli%an

#ade #oney too, but in a different way: his !ictures were so!o!ular in ngland, that they got all sorts of ob3ects and artifacts,handkerchiefs with 6eli$ the (at on the#, and this, si#ilar to whatha!!ened to )isney, defrayed the cost of his !ictures and ga%e hi#a nice !rofit. 6eli$ the (at was bigger in ngland than it e%er washere.

ADAMSON

ee#s to be an occu!ational haard.

HUEMER


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/o, not really, we weren't as bad as news!a!er !eo!le. Ani#atorsactually were a %ery 3olly bunch. It used to be a lot of fun, workingin the studios, a lot of horse!lay. A lot of kidding. /o ti#eclocks oranything like that. &e did a lot of things like sending new !eo!le for

a bo$ of %anishing !oints, you know, that old gag. &hen a new guywould co#e in, they'd send hi# out for a fil# stretcher.

ADAMSON

5ike a day ca#!.

HUEMER

es, it was really fun. And we did our stints +uite co#fortably

there was no stress. After all, 7?@ feet for about fi%e or si$ #en todo, that's not such a chore, es!ecially if you like to draw.

ADAMSON

-ow #any drawings would you do in an hour

HUEMER

About twenty. aybe #ore. )e!ending. In those days, we did a lot

of hold !ositions, and 3ust #o%ed #aybe an eye. &hen a charactertalked, all we'd ha%e was a ;e!eat and ;e%erse of a #outh#o%e#ent, and the rest of the figure didn't #o%e at all. It wastraced on a cell. And then the #outh, 3ust this little bit, was on!a!er. *hen a balloon would co#e out, with lettering, and hold, andthen e$!lode. As his #outh #ani!ulated, the balloon ca#e out,%ery +uickly, 3ust bloo! in about fi%e drawings, and held while youread the balloon. And then it whirled away or e$!loded, we had%arious ways of acco#!lishing that. (haracters did %iolent takes,like all the hair flying off. 4nce had all the features fly off in the airand co#e back and sla! back in utt's face. *his was a 'take.' &ee$!eri#ented with all these cray things.

ADAMSON

-ow did audiences react then

HUEMER

*hey didn't get it. I swear, they didn't get it. 6or one thing, theti#ing was off. And we didn't ha%e sound. ound was the great


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sa%iour of the ani#ated cartoon. I was with Barre till about '1. Andthen the !lace folded as they so often did in those days. ou ne%ercould be sure of your 3ob. %ery s!ring was a crisis. *his wascontract ti#e, you know, with the releasing co#!any. I canre#e#ber being told, ')on't go far, we'll call you. )on't call us.' And

ne%er being called.

Barre was a %ery dedicated !erson, 3ust like &alt )isney was lateron. -is idea was to !low back e%erything into the business and notworry about #aking a !rofit for hi#self. -e rightly figured that ifthe !ictures were good enough, why, they would !ay their way, and!eo!le would de#and the#, which is what )isney e%entuallyacco#!lished. &alt's !ictures cost hi# #uch #ore than he got for

the#, at first e%en Three Little Pigs#ade not so #uch #oney asyou #ay think.

-e was such a nice little 6rench#an, who had a funny way oftalking. I can still re#e#ber, he would say things like, 'utt co#esinto de roo#, and throws the to#"a"toe at the cannery.' eaningthe to#ato at the canary. (ute guy, too bad he lost his #arbles.

utt and Jeff started as a co#ic stri! that had to do with

horseracing. It would !redict winners of each day's race. *hat's howit got its fa#e. It didn't #atter what the gag was, in the lastballoon, he'd say so#ething like, '&ell, I'# !utting #y #oney onBluenose in the si$th race.' -e did %ery well !redicting these things.6inally, he dro!!ed that, #aybe there ca#e a ti#e that he waslosing too consistently. It beca#e a regular ty!e co#ic stri!, one ofthe %ery few stri!s of the ti#e. *his goes way back to the ti#e of'*he ellow >id,' and co#ic stri!s like that. I don't know e$actlyhow Barre got it, utt and Jeff. I do know that he #ust ha%e gottenit through Bud 6isher, the guy who drew it. 6isher financed it, buthad nothing whate%er to do with the !ictures. &e saw hi# %eryseldo#. &e heard he was a #illionaire by then. %en then, he wasa fantastic business#an. -e 3ust had a knack for #aking #oney.*he stri! was enor#ously !o!ular, it was !robably the biggest stri!of its day. o#ething like '2eanuts' is now.

ADAMSON

&hat did he think of the cartoons

HUEMER


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I don't know if he e%er saw the# or ga%e a da#n about the#. Justfinanced it, it was another %enture of his. But he did watch thereleasing %ery carefully. I understand that he checked in on that,and he caught so#ebody who was robbing hi# and hauled hi#

o%er the coals. -e was really a %ery shrewd guy. ou know, he hada #illion in the days when it was like ha%ing a billion now.

ADAMSON

Is that why utt and Jeff continued, e%en after the Barrecor!oration folded

HUEMER

I think 6isher turned it o%er to so#ething called the Jefferson 6il#(or!oration, which was owned by 6o$. And 6o$ released the#.*here was always a utt and Jeff studio. Although it was run bydifferent !eo!le. *he !lace was run by Barre when he got out, itwas run by Bowers, who took it, and ran it for a while and then theJefferson 6il# (or!oration #o%ed in, and they ran it till it +uit. AndI ke!t working for the#. &e all ke!t working for the#.

ADAMSON

And how long did the Jefferson 6il# (o. run the thing

HUEMER

4h, 3ust a few years. /othing lasted %ery long.

ADAMSON

-ow #uch #oney did these fil#s #ake, do you know

HUEMER

/o, I don't. I don't think they knew either. *here was a ti#e whenthey were gi%en away with features. It was a !ackage deal. ou gota feature, you got a newsreel, you got so#e other strange thing,then you got a cartoon. ery often they didn't e%en run thecartoons. If the e$hibitor hated the cartoons, he didn't run the#.*hat's how interested they were.

ADAMSON


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o the cartoons ne%er really caught on, like the co#ic stri!.

HUEMER

&ell, utt and Jeff didn't. I think the 6ables caught on slightly. By

19@, so#ewhere in there, I think that Bray was #aking a li%ingand 6eischer, who was with Bray, started his '4ut of the Inkwell'around 191?. *hese were released in so#ething called states'righting. 4r I could buy the rights to run that fil# in a certainstate""say (alifornia. I ha%e the rights. I ha%e the fil#, now I canrelease it in any theater I want to. I !aid a certain a#ount of#oney for that, so that in the 7= states you were sure to at leastget a certain a#ount of #oney, 3ust for gi%ing the# the rights torun it. *hen you didn't bother about it any#ore. *hat was their

affair, to #ake !rints, to sell it, to send it a round, whate%er theywanted to do with it. It was kind of a !recarious business. And thatwas because there was no actual de#and for these things. /ot that!eo!le weren't thinking about i#!ro%ing the#. *here was a guy(arl 5ederer who thought of #aking a feature, way back in1919. Cinderella. *his was going to be a beautiful thing""silent, ofcourse. any had the idea. -e ne%er co#!leted it he died. *hissa#e fellow, (arl 5ederer, also had the idea of #ulti"!lane, or de!thin a cartoon. -e took three different s!eeds of a background,

#o%ed the# in different gradations: half"inch in the front, +uarterof an inch farther back, and then the sky, tracing all three on one!iece of !a!er, going back and laboriously tracing so that when youused these traced !ieces of !a!er, you got this effect of the s!eedin front, and then less and less in the back. *here was an a#aingfeeling of de!th. &e used it in utt and Jeff. &e used it o%er ando%er again he #ade two, one a country scene and one a cityscene. And they were great But I don't think the audiences noticedthe#. In general they were still faintly hostile to the cartoons.

ADAMSON

ou washed cells and used the# o%er again at this ti#e, didn't you

HUEMER

es, we had to. -ad to cut corners. &e counted !encils, too. &eturned back the stub of a !encil to get a new one. It was a tighto!eration. And I don't know whether we e%er got %acation I don'tbelie%e we e%er did. 4f course, we got a %acation at the end ofcontract ti#e, when we were out of work for a few weeks. &ithout


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!ay. And we worked half a day aturday. But then e%erybody did inthose days. As an ani#ator, I #ade about a hundred and twentydollars a week. *his was around 19@, and it was a lot of #oneyore than a lot of #y relati%es #ade. And I understand that at-earst's International, guys like 6rank oser did fabulously well.

*hey told #e that he #ade about 7@@ dollars a week 3ustani#ating. But he was lightning fast and could slash it out. -earsthad the International tudio, where he did all his >ing 6eaturescharacters, like -a!!y -ooligan, and >aten3a##ers, 'Jerry on theJob' all these things were done in ani#ated cartoon for#, as sort ofsubsidiary to the news!a!er stri!s.

ADAMSON

If it was such a tight o!eration, how could they afford to !ay you allso #uch

HUEMER

*hat's a good +uestion, isn't it

ADAMSON

It would see#, because (ha!lin was getting this unheard of 1@@

dollars a week in 1917. 6or fi%e years later, that would see# to be+uite a stunning fee for ani#ators.

HUEMER

ou know, that's so#ething I hadn't thought of in all these years:how they could do it. I know when I worked for 6leischer, in 19?, Iwas #aking 1? dollars a week. I guess #aybe they did #ake a goof it, barely. &hen I talk about counting !encils, I'# talking about

191?, when they were #aking the# for a round a thousand dollarsa !icture.

ADAMSON

ou were getting less at this ti#e

HUEMER

About C? dollars still a good salary. 4f course, I got se%en dollars a

week as a tracer.

ADAMSON


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;egardless of how, why do you think they did this *hey didn'tneed to attract !eo!le. *hey didn't need to te#!t the# with a largesalary.

HUEMER

*here weren't that #any ani#ators a%ailable, or that #any !eo!lewho would be interested, or e%en knew about the business. ou'dbe sur!rised how #any !eo!le didn't know about ani#atedcartoons, or !aid any attention to the#. A guy like oser a!!earedbrilliant to the#. *hey would get crushes on !eo!le, a boss would,and say, '4h, this is the best ani#ator in the business, he's awiard (an't lose hi#' o they would !ay hi# a good salary. It

actually ha!!ened to #e with the 6leischers.ADAMSON

&hen did you start working for the 6leischers

HUEMER

Around 19?.

ADAMSON

Is this after utt and Jeff

HUEMER

eah. I #ust ha%e had other 3obs, I was still an artist. I could !aintla#!shades.

ADAMSON

o you started with the 6leischers about '?.

HUEMER

ou better #ake that 'D.

ADAMSON

All right.

HUEMER

Eto ta!e recorderFou heard hi#.


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ADAMSON

ou started with the 6leischers about 'D. And they were doingwhat

HUEMER

4h, they were doing '4ut of the Inkwell.' >oko the (lown and a$were the only characters. *hen we introduced other characters as!rotagonists. 4nce we took hi# to ars, and he had artians tocontend with. *hose were actually !retty good cartoons, I stillbelie%e. *hey were definitely to #y #ind a ste! abo%e the utt andJeffs. *hey had better stories.

ADAMSON

&ere the ani#ators still #aking u! their own gags, or did you ha%ea little bit #ore su!er%ision

HUEMER

yself, I would work with )a%e 6leischer. a$ was the guy whoacted in the !ictures. )a%e was his brother and #ore or less thedirector of the o!eration. &e'd get together and talk about it. *hestudio was so s#all that you could walk fro# desk to desk. /ot likethe )isney studio, where it's full of roo#s, and where nobody e%ersees anybody or talks to anybody. ou could yell across the roo#,'-ey, )a%e. I want to talk to you. u!!ose we do this.' And thenwe'd sit down and talk it o%er and laugh our heads off at our greatgags, and then I would ani#ate it. But, of course, we had a basicthe#e. )id you e%er see the one about the fly *hat's the sur%i%ingone that you see around a lot. A fly is bothering a$ well, take it

fro# there, what can a fly do to disturb this o it was %ery rela$edat 6leischer's.

ADAMSON

-ow big a !art did a$ !lay in these cartoons

HUEMER

-e would o!en it, and in so#e trick way the clown would co#e out

of the inkwell. a$ would take the cork off the inkwell, or othercle%erer ways, then >oko'd be loose, so he'd !lay against a$. -e'ds+uirt ink at hi#, whate%er the gags were. *hen in the end he


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always went back into the inkwell, and a$ !ut the cork back on. Acircular effect, to co#!lete the thing.

ADAMSON

&hat would you say was the #a3or reason for these cartoons beingbetter than the others

HUEMER

*hey had #ore interesting ideas, for one thing. *hey had li%eaction, which is understandable right away. -ere is a$, a li%e!erson that they got to like after a while. a$ was not a great actoror co#edian, but at least, if you saw a few of the#, you got toknow hi#, and you were sy#!athetic to his troubles. Another thing

they did was so#ething they called ;otosco!e. *hey did that rightfro# the %ery start. )a%e 6leischer would !ut on a clown suit, andthey would !hotogra!h hi# and then they would take those!hotogra!hs and work o%er the#. A si#!le !rocess, but it ga%eastonishingly lifelike action. Incidentally, c(ay's action was %erylifelike, too, in so#e of his early cartoons, which was a#aing,because he didn't use ;otosco!e. -e didn't base it on any li%eaction. -e did a little thing about /e#o, which was %ery natural,really %ery beautiful ani#ation. It's sur!rising, because he did thatbefore anybody else, and then in between that ti#e and when)isney ca#e along, there was a lot of this raunchy"looking stuff""not good drawing or action. c(ay hit a high !eak at the %ery start,after which +uality went down and then ca#e u! again when)isney entered the !icture.

ADAMSON

&insor c(ay didn't use the inbetween syste#, did he -e would

go straight fro# one drawing to the ne$t.

HUEMER

*hat's right. &e found that out at a ban+uet we ga%e in 198. Itwas called the Ani#ators' Ban+uet. &e in%ited hi#, and he was theguest of honor.

ADAMSON

ou didn't do this e%ery year, did you

HUEMER


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/o, they wouldn't let us because after we were through the ownerof the hotel says, ';aus "" and don't co#e back' *he last I saw thenight of the brawl was so#ebody trying to kick off the chandelier.Anyway c(ay got u! and he had a few under his belt, as we all

did""there were only about thirty of us, that's all there was in thebusiness, in those days.

ADAMSON

c(ay was a sober, ti#id sort of !erson, wasn't he

HUEMER

&ell, he wasn't sober this night. -e got u! and he said, '/ow I'#

going to !ut you fellows wise to so#ething that I'%e 3ustdisco%ered,' he says, 'Instead of working straight ahead, which#a$es it hard to know where you're going in ani#ation, why don'tyou take drawing no.1, and then look ahead and #ake drawingno.? and now look, you can !ut drawings no. , D, and 7 right inbetween' -e was telling us about the inbetween syste# 4f course,we res!ected hi# so #uch that nobody said, 'Aw, co#e off it, we'%ebeen doing it since 191?.' o that's how we know that he #ustha%e ani#ated straight ahead.

ADAMSON

o you were doing the inbetween syste# fro# the ti#e youstarted

HUEMER

4h, yeah. And we wouldn't let anybody touch our inbetweens. &ehad no inbetweeners. It was !retty i#!ortant that we did all thisoursel%es. It was too !recious to let so#e 3erk co#e in who #aybedidn't know how to draw, and #onkey with your stuff. As a #atterof fact, for the record, in all #odesty, I'# the first one to useinbetweeners. And it ca#e about when I was working for the6leischers. *hey""!oor fellows""liked #y work so well that theysaid, '&hy don't you do #ore of it I #ean by ha%ing so#eone dothe inbetweens' And #y first i#!ulse was '4h, yeah' 'I will, likehell' *hen, being basically a %ery lay fellow, I thought, '&hy not'

o, Art )a%is was assigned to #e.

ADAMSON


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Is inbetweening in%ariably tedious

HUEMER

&ell, it's not creati%e. ou don't dare be creati%e aboutinbetweening. *he e$tre#es create the action, the #ood, orwhate%er you want to !ut o%er the !oint. )id the s!acing, too.

ADAMSON

&ere you satisfied with his work

HUEMER

4h, fine. )idn't know the difference.

ADAMSON

&hat !ercentage of the drawings did he end u! doing

HUEMER

About se%enty"fi%e. &e e$!osed our own ani#ation right on the!a!er. &e didn't e%en ha%e e$!osure sheets. &e drew downin the

corner. u!!ose you had so#ebody re!eating an action, we'd say,'; and ;'""re!eat and re%erse""'fi%e ti#es sto!!ing on 8,' then yougo ahead. 4f course when sound ca#e along, you ha%e to ha%ee$!osure sheets.

*his is an a#using incident that e$!lains how careful we were indrawing our things when we worked in !en and ink with 0ilott !en!oints""they had to be 0ilott's 9@'s, these fa#ous nglish !en!oints. o#e guy was ani#ating an e$!losion and he noodled u!

this drawing of s#oke and things breaking, and e%erything and he#ade such a beautiful drawing of one of these new inbetweens thathe held it for fi%e e$!osures. -e couldn't stand ha%ing the thing gothrough in one e$!osure, as it should ha%e. -is work of art #ightha%e been #issed I could tell you his na#e, but he's a friend of#ine. *he inking techni+ues were %ery interesting, so#e guys were%ery good. ou'd !ut shading on the leg that was behind the otherone, if you wanted to. &e did the clown in the ri! and slash syste#,which is cutting !a!ers out to fit o%er each other like a !ule. &e

used to noodle u! closeu!s of the clown's head with shading allaround the eyes, and e%erything. &e used a %ery hea%y outline in


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those days %ery, %ery thick outline, all around the figure. *hat wasbecause in the !rinting and de%elo!ing of the fil# if we didn't ha%ea hea%y outline, %ery often, it would bleed out. o it wasn't 3ust anaffectation, it was necessary to do it.

*he 6leischers only used o!a+ue cells when the clown worked o%era !hotogra!h. ay he was on the desk. *hen he would be""as we dotoday""on an o!a+ue cell. 4f course, he was 3ust black and whitewhite"faced, black suit. )idn't use any grays that I can re#e#ber.;otosco!e was how he co#bined the cartoon with li%e action. 6irst,he had a ca#era abo%e and below a 0lass !late, with !egs a!ro3ection #achine was below that shooting u!, and a ca#era wasshooting down. 6irst he #ade a #atte of the clown. *his was used

for !utting cartoon with li%e action, !utting the# on the sa#e fil#.*hey were a !retty in%enti%e bunch, the 6leischers. *he bouncingball thing was in%ented by the#, the idea of bouncing a ball onwords. *hey got an old"fashioned washing #achine, and letteredthe lines of the song, white letters on black, and then tacked it onthis round dru#. *hen they co%ered the whole thing black, andwhen they turned the dru# a line would co#e into the o!ening of aslit and go down, and then the ne$t line would co#e. *hen, theyhad a black !ointer with a white dot on the end, so that when the

line #o%ed in""you ne%er saw where it ca#e fro#""then the !ointerwould go, dee"dee"dee"dee"dee"dee. ou didn't see the !ointerbecause it was black against black. ou saw the white ball: it lookedas though the though the white ball was 3u#!ing fro# word toword.

ADAMSON

*his wasn't an ani#ated white ball

HUEMER

/o, no It was done this way, with a !ointer. 6il#ed in li%e action*he !ointer doesn't !hotogra!h because it's black. *hey ne%er letthe !ointer go in front of the letters. It's going abo%e the letters.*hey'd knock it off in no ti#e at all. *he first one they #ade wascalled '4h, abel,' and I ani#ated it. It was a song slightly !o!ularat the ti#e: '/eath your window I a# waiting, oh, abel'""so#ething to that effect. I would ani#ate the lines in, and I had a

little figure 3u#!ing to accent: '/eath"your"win"dow"I"a#"waiting'""and she'd 3u#! back as the ne$t line ca#e in"" '4h...' and ride


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along the thing rode along in !anora#a. And we did strangethings. &e'd turn words into funny ob3ects and we'd e$!lode words.*hey'd drift down, grow, shrink, other characters would co#e inand chase the# off. I didn't do the bouncing ball that was alwaysthe chorus. I 3ust did the %erse. *he %erse was always so#e figure

ani#ated that was a!!ro!riate, like 'In the shade of the old a!!letree' and the word would ani#ate u! into a tree. *hey were whiteon black, but they were negati%e. &e'd ha%e to #ake a black faceso that when it was re%ersed it would be a white face. '*hen theletters, being black would co#e out white. It was so successful thatwhen they ran Goh, abel' at the (ircle *heater, in (olu#bus (ircle,/ew ork, it brought down the house, it sto!!ed the show. *heya!!lauded and sta#!ed and whistled into the following !icture,which they finally sto!!ed, and took off, and !ut back the '4h,abel' cartoon again. *hey ran it again to the delight of theaudience. I always say that was an indication of the audience. Ialways say that was an indication of what sound would so#eday dofor the ani#ated cartoon, because it was a sound idea. *he use ofsound co#bined with action e%en though the audience su!!lied thesound, ne%ertheless, it !artook of that feeling. *hey sang their littlehearts out. It was %ery successful. &ith utt and Jeff we didso#ething called 'ound your A' in which utt and Jeff a!!eared on

the screen, and see#ed to talk to a$ anny, the dru##er of thetrand *heater, whose idea it was. -e stood u! in a s!ot light in theorchestra, and he'd say, '&ell, utt, how are things today' Andthen the character would see# to look down at hi#, and a balloonwould co#e u! and say, '6ine.' *hey !layed back and forth, andthis, again, was, in a sense foreshadowing what sound would doso#eday. It was %ery, %ery successful. *his was the #ost successfulutt and Jeff.

ADAMSON

*his was so#ething like what c(ay did with '0ertie the )inosaur,'now, wasn't it

HUEMER

;ight.

ADAMSON


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&as there great si#ilarity between your work and other ani#ators'work 4r was the difference i#!erce!tible enough, since they wereusing the sa#e techni+ues

HUEMER

&ithin a !icture, say there were three ani#ators doing it, youwould ha%e to look %ery closely to tell the difference in ani#ators'drawings. But you could tell, instantly, whether it was a *errytoon,or a 6leischer, or a utt and Jeff, or a 6eli$ the (at. At least I could,I i#agine audiences could too, if they cared. *hey were sta#!ed,they were indi%idual. Always the sa#e way of doing it.

ADAMSON

o that your work took on a different look when you changedstudios.

HUEMER

*hat's right. %en though you retained a little you couldn't hel!doing things certain ways. But audiences were e%er aware ofanything like that. %en to us there wasn't #uch. 4f course, I knew#y own work, I could tell #ine in a #inute. I saw an old utt and

Jeff cartoon that I'd worked on, and I could tell #y own work. *hiswas one that was done when we had a little outfit called *heAssociated Ani#ators, and all we would need would be the inkersand the !ainters of the cells""by this ti#e #ost cartoons were donein the o!a+ue syste#. &e were the first coo!erati%e in theani#ation business. It was #yself, Burt 0illette, Ben -arrison,anny 0ould""and we decided to be both the owners andani#ators we wouldn't need a staff we would sa%e all that #oney.6inally we went to utt and Jeff or rather Bud 6isher's attorney and

got the rights to do the utt and Jeffs again. *hey had la!sed for awhile. &e did a nu#ber of these, and I saw one 3ust the other day:it wasn't too bad. Incidentally, we couldn't #ake any #oney. Itwasn't a successful o!eration. Besides, I think utt and Jeff wasfading away, and Bud 6isher withdrew his financial su!!ort, andthat ended it. *hat was the end of utt and Jeff.

ADAMSON

As ani#ation ad%ances, fro# about 191@ into the thirties, therewas less and less a!!earance of hu#an figures, and ani#als beganto take o%er.


19/152

HUEMER

&ell, ani#als were always %ery !o!ular, because when you doso#ething with an ani#al, it's unconscious satire. And it see#ed to

be #ore sy#!athetic. %en )isney went to ani#als. -e had thislittle girl, re#e#ber the Alice cartoons. And, of course, *erry had6ar#er Alfalfa character in his, but all the rest was ani#als.Ani#als were %ery successful, they always were.

ADAMSON

6ar#er Alfalfa was #ore or less 3ust a stooge for a lot of cats and#ice, as I re#e#ber.

HUEMER

*hat's right. Alice was sort of a stooge too.

*hen the ani#ation business was looking %ery shaky to #e, and Idecided to get out of it. I drew a co#ic stri! called '0ood"*i#e 0uy'for the etro!olitan /ews !a!er ser%ice, which ran for about ayear or two. It was a !eo!le"ty!e stri!. *he guy who did 'lla(inders' Bill (onsel#an wrote it, and I drew it. &ell that folded too.

*hen I went back to the 6leischers. I was with the# in 199 whenthe crash occurred, I can re#e#ber it, crashing.

ADAMSON

)id this affect you %ery seriously

HUEMER

/ot !ersonally, no. I didn't own any stock. I didn't understand it.

&ho did *he ani#ation industry looked awfully bad, at that ti#e.)isney, of course, had already entered the field, and had doneso#e oswalds. *hey were far su!erior to anything any body haddone, in #y esti#ation. And we, #e, -arrison and 0ould, used togo seek the# out, find out where they were running and studythe#. And, bad as they look today""Eand I'%e seen the# recently,and they are !retty badF""they were tre#endously su!erior to ourthing. *hat was our o!inion as crafts#en of the business. I waswith 6leischer again when sound broke on the scene and the'keleton )ance' took /ew ork by stor#, and naturally e%erythingwent to sound.


20/152

ADAMSON

And you went to (olu#bia.

HUEMER

*hat's right, we did cra!!y and *oby the 2u!. *hat's the first thingwe did, *oby the 2u!. ort of a nondescri!t little character. A blacklittle beast, that walked on its hind legs, and had a big #o! of blackhair. A weird dog"like thing with long ears.

ADAMSON

&as he sy#!athetic &ho create hi#

HUEMER

id arcus created hi#. -e and I ca#e out to start the series. &eleft 6leischers together. int #o%ed to (alifornia, and we wentwith hi#, and started *oby the 2u!. int also brought out -arrisonand 0ould to continue >ray >at, which they had been doing. *heyran concurrently.

*he 6leischers naturally 3oined the gold rush after )isney's stunningsuccess with his first sound cartoons. *heir first was a 2o!eye shortcartoon with a /oah's ark the#e. I'# under the i#!ression thatso#e of the dialogue was not !rescored. *heir own original #ethodof synchroniing cartoon and sound was the in%ention of 0eorge;ufle, who was one of their ani#ators. It consisted of!hotogra!hing a bouncing ball, attached to the botto# of a batonwhich occu!ied the s!ace at the left side of the fil# reser%ednor#ally for the sound track. In effect, this acted as a #etrono#e

and could be !hotogra!hed to !ro%ide any desired beat, #ore!articularly, the ones established and deter#ined in ad%ance by theani#ation itself. As the recording session, the #usical director hadonly to watch the baton going u! and down in the !ree#!ted soundtrack s!ace and guide his orchestra accordingly. usicians and%ocalists also carefully watched the cartoon to add their soundeffects and dialogues. It was the answer to !re%ious and ha!haard#ethods of synchroniation such as ha%ing a flower which hadnothing whate%er to do with the action wag back and 6orth in the

corner of the scene for the #usical director to watch.


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As far as I know the 2o!eyes hit it off %ery well, and after the#ca#e Betty Boo!, and a re%i%al of >oko in the ong (artunesetting""all with sound, of course. But I was long gone fro# the6leischers by then. I s!ent three years with the (harles int outfitand established #yself with the studio of #y choice"")isney's.

A!ro!os of the great !o!ularity of the 2o!eye cartoons, there's astory that concerns &alt )isney while he was on one of his tri!s toouth A#erica. I wasn't on the tri!. Joe 0rant and I had been leftbehind to finish u! Dumbo.

Anyway it was at so#e big social function the locals were throwingto honor their fa#ous %isitor. ost of the crowd were nglish. *hety!ical kind. All e%ening long as &alt danced, so#e guy would gi%e

the fa#ous wink, in !assing hi# on the dance floor and nodknowingly. *hen he would gi%e the 2o!eye 'Bee! Bee!' and whirlaway with his !artner, satisfied no doubt that he knew he hadshown )isney that he was aware of a thing or two about what waswhat in cartoons. It's hard to bla#e the !oor guys, since actually,the great #a3ority of !eo!le of the world !robably thought that)isney was the only one who #ade ani#ated cartoons.

*echnical ite#: &hen I ca#e to the utt and Jeff studio in 191=

they were already using the *o! 2eg syste# of registry. Before thatthey had used %arious different ways of kee!ing the drawings inregister. 4ne way was to ha%e a nu#ber of !inholes on each sheetof ani#ation !a!er at the to!. *hese coincided e$actly with relati%eholes in the ani#ation board. *he ani#ator !ut the !ins, ordinarystraight !ins, through the !a!er and into the holes and also underthe ca#era. It worked until the !eg syste# ca#e along. Anotherstrange de%iation fro# co##on !rocedure was that 2aul *erry andalso his brother John *erry did all their ani#ation on trans!arent

tissue !a!er. %erybody else, as far as I know used the so"called5ight Boards and regular !a!er. After all, how can you fli! tissue!a!er

5et #e tell you the story that I'%e told #any ti#es, about what!eo!le thought of the business at first. &hen we o!ened oursecond utt and Jeff studio in 6ordha#, we were in the 6ordha#Arcade. And down below on the street le%el, there was this tailor,

who had a s#all sho! that we ani#ators !atronied. -e was 3ustburning u! with curiosity about what we fellows were doingu!stairs. &e were in this loft that was #eant for light


22/152

#anufacturing, and he couldn't figure it out. '&hat are you boysdoing u! there' he !ersisted. And we e$!lained, '&e're #akingani#ated !ictures,' or at least we tried to e$!lain...and finally I saidone day, '&ell, co#e on u!, r. 2incus, or whate%er his na#e was.I'll show you what we're doing.' And one day sure enough, he

a!!eared at the door, hat in hand. I took hi# in tow and lead hi#around, fro# board to board. I fli!!ed drawings. I showed hi# theinstructions, how we did it...as #uch as you can e$!lain it. %entoday you can't do it #uch different, you know, it's still #uch thesa#e !rinci!le. &ell, I showed hi# e%erything, and he 3ust stoodthere, shifting fro# foot to foot...occasionally he'd go, '*sk, tsk,tsk,' or 'h###.' /e%er a word. I thought #aybe he wasn'tlistening. 6inally, it was all done, I said, '&ell what do you think,r. 2incus' And he said, '*ell #e...fro# this, you are #aking ali%ing' And that would be a good title for a book about this !eriod,'6ro# *his ou Are aking a 5i%ing.' It was all co#!letelyinco#!rehensible to hi#. a#e as the word 'ani#ation.' It didn't#ean anything at all to !eo!le. As far as so#e !eo!le knew, it#eant #ating ani#als.

ADAMSON

0i%e us an idea what the studio looked like.

HUEMER

*he Barre studio was in an enor#ous bare loft, about a hundredfeet by about se%enty"fi%e...without any breaks...well, yes, at oneend there was a wall for an office. *he studio !art had these longbenches, with roo# for three or four light boards on each side,facing each other.

ADAMSON

5ight boards...

HUEMER

&ell, that's what we called the ani#ation boards. *here was a longshelf in the #iddle, on which you could !ut your drawings, andwhich se!arated you fro# the guy on the other side""to who# youcould talk through these shel%es. And there were about twel%e of

these units, standing right in the #iddle of the roo#. *wel%e ofthese benches or tables, containing about, oh, eight !laces forani#ators""which was far #ore than were needed when Barre set


23/152

the !lace u!. -e ne%er filled it. At no ti#e was it e%er co#!letelyfilled. &e only occu!ied, well, #aybe, four rows of these boards fortracers and ani#ators. *hen there was a ca#era fro# Barre whichoccu!ied another roo# to the side. *he loft was %ery bleak and itwas %ery cold in the winter. *he heating was totally inade+uate. &e

often had to go ho#e, because our fingers got stiff fro# cold. *hatwas when the oil heaters no longer hel!ed. &e had these little oilheaters that stood around on the floor. *hey don't e$ist any#ore,but we had the# in those days before little electric heaters.

ADAMSON

5ike s#udge !ots

HUEMER

&ell, e$ce!t that they didn't s#udge. *here was a little tank on thebotto#, with a round cylinder, where the heat ca#e fro#""no, theywere clean enough. I guess it was kerosene oil they burned orso#ething that didn't #ake a s#udge. *he whole studio was %erybare looking.

ADAMSON

/o drawings hanging on the walls, or anything

HUEMER

4h, no refine#ents, no, indeed. /o curtains or car!ets. &e hadbare board flooring.

ADAMSON

/o, I #ean like sketches.

HUEMER

*hey couldn't afford it. /o.

ADAMSON

&hat did you do with your old drawings after you had #ade yourlittle fil#s

HUEMER

*hey were always thrown away.


24/152

ADAMSON

Just thrown away...

HUEMER

4h, sure. ou couldn't draw on the other side of the !a!er, couldyou

ADAMSON

%en though you did sa%e the cells...

HUEMER

As I say, we sa%ed the# and washed the#. *hat was a regular 3obfor so#ebody, to be continually washing cells. A rs. alloy didthat. *hat wasn't too easy to do either. *he ink stuck to the cells.&e had to use a##onia and one thing and another. /o, the olderstudios were !retty bare, 3ust utilitarian.

ADAMSON

-ow did the 6leischers look

HUEMER

a#e idea. 4nly &alt )isney definitely took !ride in the a!!earanceof his studio. ade beautiful desks, nice furniture, landsca!ed thegrounds, had full"ti#e gardeners all o%er the !lace. &ell, he hadthe #oney. &e didn't ha%e the #oney for that. /ot In those !ioneerdays.

ADAMSON

&ell, it's also a #atter of care. 4ut of one roo# you ha%e se%eralhundred drawings co#e out e%ery day. ery often, in the !lacesI'%e seen, they'll take a cell and a background, and o%er, lay the#o%er, and then 3ust !ut the# u! on the wall.

HUEMER

/o, we ne%er did that.

ADAMSON


25/152

/e%er bothered with that.

HUEMER

&ell, as a #atter of fact, they weren't that good.

ADAMSON

I see.

HUEMER

*hey Ethe 6leischersF started with 2o!eye 3ust as soon as soundbeca#e obligatory.

ADAMSON

)o you know why they !icked hi# u!

HUEMER

sure, It was a good !ro!erty because 2o!eye was the #ost !o!ularco#ic stri! at that ti#e.

ADAMSON

5ike utt and Jeff.

HUEMER

eah, sure. It was a %ery big feature Enews!a!er that isF. It was+uite a !lu# to ha%e. If you should ha!!en to see one of the old2o!eyes you #ay notice that there is ne%er a +uiet #o#ent""in thedialogue, that is. )ialogue that is crucial to the story will be workedout and synched to action. But in between there is a constant

strea# of #uttering, often unintelligible. But it was %ery effecti%e, ade%ice to kee! the thing ali%e. es, sound did wonders for theani#ated cartoon. *here'd be none without sound, I don't think.(ertainly %ery little !ublic acce!tance.

ADAMSON

>illed off the two"reel co#edy, at the sa#e ti#e.

HUEMER

eah, and a good thing.


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ADAMSON

&hy

HUEMER

I don't know. I didn't care for the#.

ADAMSON

&hen did you start noticing the#

HUEMER

I'# sure it was around 1917. (ha!lin did so#ething called His NewJob. *his was the first one of his !ictures that I e%er saw. It 3ust

flattened #e. It 3ust killed #e. And e%erybody else too. uddenlye%erybody was talking (ha!lin.

ADAMSON

*his is the one #o%ing the !iano.

HUEMER

I don't know what, e%en what it was about.

ADAMSON

ou re#e#ber the title

HUEMER

es, that was the title: His New Job.

ADAMSON

&ould you say this had any effect on what you were doing

HUEMER

ou #ean, did we i#itate (ha!lin

ADAMSON

/ot i#itate e$actly.

HUEMER


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*he only one who was e%er really influenced by (ha!lin was &alt.-e 3ust couldn't get hi# out of his syste#, you know. -e thought ofickey ouse actually as a little (ha!lin. /ot that he walked likehi# or looked like hi#, but &alt ke!t the feeling of this little drollkind of !athetic little character, who was always being !icked on.

But cle%erly co#ing out on to! anyway. 4ther !eo!le influenced&alt, too, )ouglas 6airbanks, and other outstanding !erfor#ers.&alt had a wonderful gift of ada!ting things that were good andchanging the# so that you couldn't recognie the#. Actually#aking the# better.

As far back as 191=, when I ca#e to the utt and Jeff studio, theywere trying to i#!ro%e their ani#ation. &hen I got there, they

were all talking about a bit of ani#ation done by a cha! na#ed;igby, which has two goats, butting each other or so#ething. Bytoday's standards it's less than nothing, but this was considered sogreat, when I ca#e there. ;igby was the studio hero for a fewweeks. *his was 191=. And then around 1918, Albert -urter, whodid such great work at )isney's later on, had to draw an A#ericanflag and he looked out the window, saw a flag, and, wonder ofwonders, he actually co!ied the #o%e#ent""studied it and co!iedit. o#ething which nobody had done before. If you had done a

flag before, you would take three drawings and ha%e it #erely sortof %ibrate. But he analyed the action, and its folds, etcetera. -ewas such a #agnificent artist And when this scene ca#e out, we3ust thought, '*his is the end *he li%ing end *his is the greatest'In other words we weren't blind to i#!ro%e#ent. As a #atter offact, another thing done at this ti#e, which &alt also did later, waswhat Barre""or Bowers, one or the other""instituted, art classes. &ewould co#e back at night to study the hu#an for#. elf"i#!ro%e#ent, so that we drew better. Another )isney !rece!t. *he

studio would hire a #odel to co#e to !ose for us. And therebyhangs a tale. &e had this nude #odel !osing for us one night, andet Anderson who used to draw for Puckand LieEthey called hi#et because he was a %eteran of the !anish"A#erican &arF usedto kee! his tobacco loose in his !ocket, and fill his !i!e by di!!ing itin the !ocket full of tobacco. &e were all drawing one night thisnude #odel when, all of a sudden, she, gi%ing no e$cla#ation,stalked off the !latfor# and left the roo#. &e looked at each otherwondering, '&hat's the #atter' o one of us ran after her asking,'&hat's wrong' And she said, '*hat #an...with the red face. &hyis he leering so e%illy' /ow this was his habitual e$!ression when


28/152

he concentrated. et always s#iled anyway. But she thought hewas leering, en3oying her nakedness. But we did ha%e art classes,and we did, as I say, study the !en techni+ues of -einrich >ley andother !eo!le. &e thought 4!!er of -a!!y -ooligan fa#e was a finedraughts#an. 0ibson was the greatest !en and ink #an, of course.

&ho could i#itate hi#

ADAMSON

ou didn't stay at 6leischers' long after sound ca#e in.

HUEMER

&ell, I was in and out of 6leischers' se%eral ti#es. I left to go intothe Associated Ani#ators""a co#!any I hel!ed for#. *hen I ca#e

back again. *hen I left to no #y co#ic stri!. *hen I ca#e backonce #ore. And then I left to go with (harlie int. *he last ti#e Ileft a$ said, 'All right now, this is the last ti#e you're gonnalea%e' -e didn't really #ean it. -e was a lo%ely guy. I lo%ed a$.-e said, '*hat's a fine thing, lea%ing #e...that's the last ti#e you'regonna do it to #e.' Ben har!steen had been touting #e to &alt)isney. E*here was only about ten or twel%e of us ani#ators in theworld, you know, and I was one of the#.F and when &alt )isneyca#e to /ew ork on a business tri! he looked #e u! with the ideaof getting #e to work for hi#. I in%ited hi# to dinner. -e didn'tknow /ew ork, and I took hi# to a !lace called *he (hili illa,which e%en to this day I think ser%es the finest e$ican food I'%ee%er eaten. i#!ly #agnificent. I took &alt and his wife 5ily thereto talk things o%er. It was understood right away that I wouldconsider working for hi#, e%en before we went to dinner. But Iwasn't sure. -e said, 'es, let's talk anyway.' o we went to (hiliilla on 7?th treet. And all through the #eal I don't think &alt

addressed fi%e words to #e. -e sat and brooded and ate thishea%enly food, and ne%er said anything about how great it was, or#uch of anything else. o I s!oke #ostly to his wife. And Ithought, '*his is certainly a strange guy. I #ean nobody has e%erdone this to #e in #y life.' &ell, later I found out that he was in%ery dee! trouble, and was brooding. -e had so#e serious set"back. o#ething about the business end of it, I think. *hat's whyhe'd co#e to /ew ork. o that was #y strange introduction to&alt )isney. I finally agreed to work for hi#, but a day later I got a

better offer fro# int and decided to take that. &hen I called &altu! and told hi#, there was silence for a while. 6inally he said, '&ell,


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okay, but you'll be %ery sorry.' And I was. Because I should ha%egone with hi# right then and there. I would ha%e had a better ti#e,and I'd ha%e en3oyed working in the business with a real genius.Although I #ust say the #oney he offered wasn't nearlyco#!arable to what int was going to !ay #e.

ADAMSON

;eally &hy was that

HUEMER

&ell, I guess int thought I was that good. -e offered #e a!ercentage cut besides.

ADAMSON

&hen was this first #eeting with &alt

HUEMER

19D@. o, then I went to int. And stayed until 19DD. &hen inttried to cut our salaries during the de!ression we went on strike.And so I left int. Instead of going on strike though, I went o%erto )isney's at last. I had regretted turning hi# down as he had!redicted.

ADAMSON

But was there that #uch difference in salary

HUEMER

*here was +uite a co#e"down in salary""al#ost half. &alt was notone for !aying big salaries at that ti#e

ADAMSON

int was

HUEMER

&ell, int was si#!ly because I had the re!utation of being one ofthe #en he badly needed to start a new series. -e under!aid the

rest of the staff besides.ADAMSON


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&hat was it like, working for int

HUEMER

4h, fine. In a way you did what you !leased. -e didn't know whatwas going on. -e didn't care. -e wasn't really interested #uch inthe !ictures. -e was 3ust a !ro#oter, he bankrolled it. ou couldn'te%er do anything without a release and his big 3ob was to wranglethat with (olu#bia and ;>4.

ADAMSON

4h, I see.

HUEMER

int was a business#an. -e had nothing to do with the creation ofit. -e left it u! to #e and id arcus. 6or *oby and era!!y and>ray >at was done by 0ould and -arrison. *hey handled it to suitthe#sel%es. id arcus and I directed and did the stories. But wealso had to ani#ate at the sa#e ti#e. 4nce you'd laid the !ictureout, and ti#ed it, why, there wasn't #uch else but to ani#ate it.&e were still our best ani#ators, certainly better than any

neo!hytes we could hire. -arrison and 0ould did the sa#e. *heyani#ated #ost of their >ray >ats.

ADAMSON

)id you ha%e inbetweeners now

HUEMER

es, we did. &e had e%erything.

ADAMSON

And inkers and !ainters

HUEMER

e!. &e used the o!a+ue cell syste# which had been uni%ersal fora long ti#e now.

ADAMSON

And !re"recorded sound


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HUEMER

es.

ADAMSON

o, you're !retty so!histicated by this ti#e.

HUEMER

es, we were co#!arable to all the other studios. After I left int,they went on for #any years doing >rat >at #ostly. y lea%ingdidn't ruin the#.

ADAMSON

&hat did you think of what you turned out at this ti#e

HUEMER

/ot #uch. o#e of the# were all right. But they didn't co#!are to)isney's cartoon. 5et's !ut it that way.

ADAMSON

&ell, without taking )isney into account: did you find the# goingo%er better than what you'd done before

HUEMER

I'# afraid they didn't do #uch better at all. /ot in #y o!inion. *heyweren't in color. &alt did the first color cartoon: '6lowers and *rees.'&hen I ca#e to )isney's, they had already finished se%eralcartoons. *hey had done '6lowers and *rees,' which was the first

'illy y#!hony' and they were 3ust finishing Three Little Pigs,which I didn't work on. &hich, as you know, was a s#asheroo.

ADAMSON

)id cra!!y #ake a !rofit for the studio

HUEMER

I couldn't tell you that. It's #y i#!ression though that cartoons

again were %icti#s of block booking. *hey ga%e the cartoons awaywith their features. 4ne of those things.


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ADAMSON

o the audiences weren't that concerned about the !roduct.

HUEMER

/ot #uch I guess. It wasn't like )isney, where they de#andedickey ouses""re#e#ber the slogan, '&hat"" /o ickey ouse'*here was nothing like that with cra!!y or >ray >at. *he !eo!lelaughed a little. But not like at )isney's !ictures, which were belly"laughs. /o, )isney brought careful !lanning, in e%ery !hase of the#aking of an ani#ated cartoon. (areful !lanning and #eticulousattention to detail, and ideas, and gags, gags, gags I #ean he washis own best gag #an. -ad the best gag #ind I e%er ran across.

1.2. TAPE NUMBER I: Side T!", (July #1, 1968

HUEMER

4ne whole incident started when I drew great big teeth on >oko,so#ething the 6leischers ne%er had done u! to that ti#e. &ell,)a%e started kidding #e about it, baring his teeth at #e e%ery ti#e

I looked at hi#. 4r he would draw an enor#ous tooth on #ydrawing !a!er when #y back was turned. *hen finally one night on#y way ho#e, I !ut #y hand into #y !ocket and fished out ahandful of teeth, -u#an ones. -e'd gotten the# fro# a dentistfriend of his. I forget what #y ne$t #o%e was""!robably sli!!ingone or two into his dessert at lunch, or so#e other disgusting thing.And then ca#e the #orning when I raised #y drawing board toswitch on the light and #y hand touched so#ething sli#y. *heredra!ed o%er the light bulb was the lower half of a cow's 3aw, re!lete

with great big yellow teeth and shreds of unhealthy"looking flesh./aturally I couldn't let hi# +uit while he was ahead. o I sneakeddown to the street when he wasn't looking and !laced the cada%eron the #otor of his 6ord. I was only sorry I wasn't there when hestarted to s#ell roast beef on his way ho#e. *hat kind of ended thewhole rib. /either of us could find a to!!er after that. Althoughthirty years later, when I #et )a%e accidentally in a theatre lobby,the first thing he did was to #ake big teeth at #e.

)id I tell you the trick with the stuffed dates *here was always agood deal of horse!lay in those !rehistoric ani#ation studios. *here


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was this guy who was an irritating kind of character. -e was +uitehard of hearing, and wore the first hearing aid I had e%er seen u!to that ti#e, but I guess he was 3ust naturally unlo%able. A#ongother odd things Ehe was also a !oetF was his de%otion to healthfoods. -e brought all sorts of uncon%entional foodstuffs for lunch.

-e was !articularly addicted to stuffed dates, that is, dates stuffedwith cho!!ed nuts and raisins and things. 4ne day while he was outof the roo#, we took his stuffed dates, re#o%ed the filling, andsubstituted a #i$ture of our own"#ostly tobacco. *hen we allwaited at lunchti#e for the big horselaugh would you belie%e it -e!icked the# u! and ate the# all &ithout e%en #aking a face&ere we frustrated. *he only conclusion I could co#e to was thathe was hard of tasting as well as hearing.

At the utt and Jeff studio, 0eorge 6oster was our cha#!ion ribber.-is fa%orite trick was to get hold of so#e newco#er to the studiowho was all eager to learn the business, and 0I hi# thebusiness. 0eorge was the oldest of the ani#ators""thirty"fi%e, Ithink, but that was old for our new industry. -e had gray hair andthis #ock !ontifical #anner of s!eaking. -e would sell the !oor guyon the idea of so#ething called 'still life ani#ation.' *he i#!ortanceof it, that you had to learn it before you could ani#ate. -e in%ented

all sorts of strange words and gi##icks. In regular art in thosedays, one first concentrated on still life before tackling the hu#anfigure. &ell, this was the sa#e basis for learning how to ani#ateyou had to first study still life ani#ation and that was his gag.


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gag of a chicken laying eggs and little auto#obiles hatching out, allbecause it was scared by an auto#obile or so#ething. Bower's cribof Barre's idea was done, howe%er, in li%e action""sto! #otion. Andit was really +uite good.

ADAMSON

&ho #ade the auto#obiles

HUEMER

-e did all of it, I i#agine he !ut the whole thing together. &here itis now, I don't know. But anyway when &alt asked #e about hi#. Itold hi# what he'd done to !oor old Barre, and what an all"aroundunreliable sort of a guy he was. o &alt said, '*hank you,' and that

washed out the whole deal. And that was #y re%enge

ADAMSON

-ow old was he

HUEMER

*hat's the strange thing. /obody knows -e was one of those #enwho could be any age. -e was wrinkled and yet he wasn't, and hewas %ital, and actually you couldn't tell. *his was one of the big!ules about hi#. -ow old was Bowers""used to be one of thegags. /obody e%er found out. And he wouldn't tell anybody. It's #yi#!ression though that he wasn't %ery young. At that ti#e he #ustha%e been say in his forties""which was old for the business thenbecause we were #ostly in our twenties. )id I tell you about howhe conned so#ebody out of so#e #oney, and when the suckerca#e to collect it, and he started arguing with Bowers. And the guy

!icked u! a blotter on which there was an A#erican flag, and in hisanger threw it down on the ground, not knowing what he wasdoing, and Bowers yelled, 'to! ou know what you'%e done ouought to be asha#ed of yourself. *he A#erican flag ou'%edesecrated 4ld 0lory' It was during the war, you know, andforeigners were looked on with sus!icion. Anyway, Bowersco#!letely cowed hi# and he left. But that's the kind of a guyBowers was. -is wife worked at )isney studios for a long ti#e. Alo%ely +uiet wo#an. he #ay still be around and in the business

so#ewhere. A sort of #ousy wo#an. /ot the kind you'd e%er thinkwould #arry such a raffish character.


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ADAMSON

&as she still #arried to hi# at the ti#e

HUEMER

I don't know. -e died. I think, in the late D@'s. he was one of the!ainters, I think. 5et #e !oint out that the ani#ated business is notlike being a !olice#an, or a doctor, or going around ha%ingad%entures. ou're 3ust sitting at a board""sitting tight. Andani#ating all day fro# nine to fi%e. 6i%e days a week, then goingho#e and co#ing back to#orrow to do it again. All these littlethings tell you are 3ust incidental. *he horse!lay and these littleribbings are 3ust incidental stuff.

ADAMSON

)idn't you feel at all restricted, working in that sort of fra#ework,nine to fi%e, fi%e days a week

HUEMER

/o. ou were co#!letely absorbed in what you were doing. &e alllo%ed to do it. Ani#ating is fun. It still is. /ot for #e though, I

dislike it %ery #uch now. It see#s %ery tedious now, #edie%al. Butwhen you're young, it's great. Besides it's %ery in%enti%e, you wereyour own story #an, and your own ca#era#an in the sense thatyou e$!osed your scene yourself. ou did %ery #uch what you feltlike.

ADAMSON

our own layout #an

HUEMER

4h, by all #eans. &hat there was, was %ery si#!le. ure, you weree%erything. %en your own dialogue #an. *he little balloons thatthe characters s!oke in would be what you !ut in the#. ou satdown and #ade it all u! fro# the whole cloth. o that was %eryabsorbing. And %ery satisfying too. If it ca#e out all right, that is.

ADAMSON

ou didn't feel that being called u!on to be creati%e was an outrageor an i#!osition


36/152

HUEMER

-eck, no, you welco#ed it. *hat's what you were there for. *hat'swhy you were in the business. a#e as when I went into story at

)isney's. *hat was fun too. *hat was creati%e. y, how the dayflew *he creati%e !art was great. *he fact that you had thefreedo# to do this. *hat your re!utation hung on what you did, asan artist, as an ani#ator, as a creati%e !erson.

ADAMSON

)idn't #ake you tense u! at all

HUEMER

4f course not. Anyway it wasn't that critical. ery often the!roducer was darn glad to get the footage. Because he had to ha%eso #uch e%ery week. ind you I'# talking of the early days""not)isney's.

ADAMSON

ou didn't get #uch friction as far as the stuff not co#ing u! to !ar,or anything like that

HUEMER

/o, %ery little of that. 4ur standards were !retty #odest.

ADAMSON

ou did no !encil tests.

HUEMER

4h, no, )isney started that. *he way we worked it at 6leischers,)a%e would co#e o%er to your board and sit down with you andtalk about what we were doing. It was %ery infor#al. As I told youthe other day, we had a basic story line, of course, that we stuckto. 6or instance, if a character went to ars, it had to be artianstuff and not -awaiian But that's about it. If you entered fro# theleft, you went out at the right.

ADAMSON


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&as there any !roble# of the ends not 3oining, or the !ieces not#eshing

HUEMER

/one whate%er. A si#!le hook"u! sufficed.ADAMSON

ou didn't feel, at any ti#e, that you were !art of the fil##akingindustry, then, did you

HUEMER

/ow, that's a %ery interesting +uestion, because ne%er did.

Ani#ated cartoons were sort of the backwater of the #o%iebusiness""I al#ost said, 'Asshole' *hat's what so#e used to call it4f course, you know, they didn't !ay any #oney for the# in thetheaters. )istributors ga%e the# away. *hey ne%er got any re%iewsin the trade 3ournals. *hey didn't get re%iews until )isney ca#ealong, and sound had #ade the cartoons really good at last.

ADAMSON

ou said there was no actual de#and for the cartoons

HUEMER

(orrect /ot way back in 191=.

ADAMSON

&ell, why do you think they were done

HUEMER

)on't ask #e. I don't know. /obody #ade #uch #oney out ofthe#. It was 3ust a no%elty. &hy are no%elties #ade

ADAMSON

ostly to #ake #oney, it see#s to #e.

HUEMER

&ell, if so#ebody was #aking #oney, they didn't let #e know. Idon't know who was #aking it. &ell, co#e to think of it, 6ables


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#ade #oney, as I told you, because it was kind of a ke!t wo#an!ro!osition. ;>4 ran the# in their theaters, and they had to !ay so#uch !ershowing because they had bought ownershi! in *erry'sstudios. *hat was a different thing entirely. *hey had a ready"#ade#arket with their enor#ous chain of theaters in which they could

run these things. And they were therefore guaranteed a certainsubstantial a#ount for each fil# it wasn't a hit"and"#iss affair likeother cartoons had to contend with.

ADAMSON

But if there wasn't an actual de#and, how do you think they gotstarted -ow or why &hat were these !eo!le's attitudes towardwhat they were doing &ere they 3ust doing it for kicks or what

HUEMER

ou #ean the !eo!le who !roduced the# *hey were allfunda#entally artist fellers, to begin with. &insor c(ay, of course,was an e$tre#ely good cartoonist, one of the %ery greatest. AndBarre was a fine artist and !ainter. *erry and !eo!le like hi# werecartoonists, and it was a challenge to try this new #ediu#. It wasintriguing and it was fun to do, too. *hey en3oyed the#sel%es. I canne%er say that it wasn't fun to ani#ate. /or did I e%er #eetanybody who didn't thoroughly en3oy doing it. &e were all glad tobe in the business. It was new and it !aid %ery well. And there werethose of us who e$!eri#ented, like arl -urd, who in%entedthings...the 6leischersHand later )isney.

ADAMSON

It was #ostly for the artistic interest, then.

HUEMER

I guess you could say that. &e all lo%ed being cartoonists. &hichwe had of course set out to be. &e all got !aid for it. &hen I toldyou the other day that so#e of the artists #ade about three or fourhundred dollars a week, and you were wondering how that couldbe, in those !oor ti#es, well, those ani#ators like oser worked for-earst. -e had organied the International (artoon tudios. -e had#oney to throw away, and he could run it at a losing !ro!osition

and !ay those salaries.

ADAMSON


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o that Bud 6isher and !eo!le like this ran the things as one oftheir %entures, didn't care whether it #ade #oney for the# or not.)idn't care if it lost a little, a!!arently.

HUEMER

I'# not so sure, but Bud 6isher #ay ha%e #ade so#e #oney out ofit, too. -e had the knack. But I'# sure -earst lost on hisInternational 2ictures %enture.

ADAMSON

But he thought it was doing his whole business good.

HUEMER

$actly. It was !ublicity for cartoon characters in his news!a!ers.

ADAMSON

&hat sort of !erson was 6isher

HUEMER

I ne%er s!oke to hi#. -e would 3ust !o! in and !o! out, had so#any interests, and this was !robably the least of his %entures. -esee#ed to be a %ery +uiet guy. -e ga%e so#e of us the feeling thathe was trying to be su!erior, you know, as the boss. Although hewasn't acti%ely the boss he ne%er bossed anybody, or stayed longenough to tell anybody what to do. -e 3ust hobnobbed with Barre.*hat was his only contact. &e 3ust saw hi# walk in and out, that'sall. Besides, he was doing his stri! at the ti#e, which was #aking agreat deal of #oney. As I told you, he was a #illionaire.

ADAMSON

o there was a co#radeshi! in the Barre grou!.

HUEMER

4h, wonderful co#radeshi!, yes.

ADAMSON

-ow long would it take the# to shoot one of the fil#s, then,between the ti#e you ani#ated the stuff and saw it on the screen


40/152

HUEMER

4h, that was %ery +uick. &e #ade one a week, so they o%erla!!edin !hotogra!hy and other o!erations. &e used to look at our own

work and laugh like hell. EAda#son laughs like hellF &e did, wethought it was great. But in the theater, they didn't. &e were!leasing each other, you know. ery strange thing. I re#e#ber ascene I did with utt and Jeff !laying instru#ents. As well as I canre#e#ber offhand, Jeff is blowing like hell on this big tube. All of asudden a brick flies out and hits hi# on the head. Big laugh in the!ro3ection roo#. 0ags like that. 5ater, he blows a flute and a snakeco#es out, it was do!ey stuff. &e thought that was %ery funny. But,the stuff really wasn't built u! to the way )isney subse+uently

learned to do. *hat is, to !re!are, to establish things. &e ne%ersee#ed to bother #uch with that, or !erha!s it ne%er occurred tous to do it. )isney always %ery carefully !lanned things, so thate%erything was understandable, and one thing ha!!ened afteranother, logically. *here's gotta be logic in hu#or, I guess.

ADAMSON

o the serious !art of co#edy was what you were #issing.

HUEMER

4ur #istake was we weren't establishing anything first. &e weregi%ing the !ayoff without the buildu!. 4f course, I'# only talkingabout #yself, #aybe other !eo!le did things differently. -owe%er,the o!eration was %ery #uch as I describe it all o%er. In otherwords, that you sat by yourself and did what you felt like. And if itwas good, you !leased the boss, if it wasn't you didn't work thereany#ore. i#!le as that.

ADAMSON

ou said you ne%er felt like a (a!ricorn.

HUEMER

/o, I'# not a !erfectionist. I'# %ery careless, and %ery lay. And Icouldn't care less about #ost things. And that's the funny thingabout it, I got away with it. 6ro# this I #ade a li%ing *ell #e #oreabout (a!ricorns.

ADAMSON


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42/152

4h, no, that's what I #ean. It was #ore in between that and the%ery straight drawing you often see nowadays. I don't know if youknow of an artist by the na#e of /or#an 5ind. -e was %ery!ro#inent in the twenties. -e laid the characters out for thesyndicate and then they got #e in to draw the#. -e designed

the#.

But 'Buck 4' ;oo' I wrote originally and so#ebody else drew it.*ried that co#bination. And that didn't work either. $ce!t for acou!le of years. /ow I write the )isney stri!"'*rue 5ife Ad%entures.'

ADAMSON

ou write the# Based on what

HUEMER

All based on ani#alsH#a##als and birds and fish.

ADAMSON

I #ean does so#ebody hand you the infor#ation or so#ething

HUEMER

/o, I get it out of books. I read all the ti#e. I search through#againes, books. And I'll get a nub of an idea. *hen I ha%e tochange it a round to #ake it an ad%enture, and I get into the#erest touch of what's called anthro!o#or!his#. Just a touch.Because too #uch is no good. 2honey. *he feature is an outgrowthof the )isney fil#s, '*rue 5ife Ad%entures.' 4nly I can't use the#o%ie #aterial, because it doesn't ada!t to a single !aneltreat#ent. It de!ends on a gi%en dra#atic situation. I'%e been

doing it for thirteen years.

ADAMSON

0ot out of the ani#ation business.

HUEMER

eah. 4h, well, I did that long ago. I got out of actual ani#ationway back in 'D8.

ADAMSON


43/152

-ow co#e

HUEMER

I got tired of it, finally. Bone weary. I went into regular cartoon

direction, I directed, a cou!le of )isney shorts. '0oofy and &ilbur Gwas one, and the other was '*he &halers'""'0oofy and &ilbnur' wasthe first ti#e 0oofy was used as a #ain character. Before that, he'dbeen 3ust one of the cast.

ADAMSON

&hy was it you finally left cartoons altogether

HUEMER

&hy I went into doing the news!a!er end *hey asked #e at thestudio. o I did it.

I used to like to gi%e shows, as a kid. 5ittle shows with a littletheatre with a little !rosceniu# and a little stage and then I'd !ut#y hands into the scene, you know, like a !u!!et show. I was inshow bi.

ADAMSON

ou did that regularly or 3ust fro# ti#e to ti#e

HUEMER

/o, once in a while. 4therwise I was a nor#al boy.

ADAMSON

&hat kind of cartoons did you do in high schoolHUEMER

6or instance, they were #ostly things like headings for articles.*here was the lettering, '6ootball,' and so#e a!!ro!riate figureunder it kicking or doing so#ething like that. I didn't tel1 you about#y career withJudge#againe, did I 6or #any #onths, al#ost ayear or so, I drew s!ot gags forJudge.

ADAMSON

&hen was this


44/152

HUEMER

&ell, that's when I was with the Associated Ani#ators. &e had ourown ani#ation business, and I used to do that on the side.

*he New !orker3ust started about that sa#e ti#e. I ne%er #ade it.Although, I tried to sell the# a nu#ber of things.

ADAMSON

&hen you ran the Associated Ani#ators, was the idea for the threeof you to share the !rofits, the three of you

HUEMER

es, four of us !artners.

ADAMSON

4r did you !ay each other salaries, or...

HUEMER

&ell, we took what was left. &e had a staff of about ten !eo!le.And one other ani#ator, a guy na#ed I. >lein who subse+uently

got into theNew !orkerand did a lot of stuff. -e's one of the!ioneers.

ADAMSON

-e was !aid a salary

HUEMER

es, he got his salary. 6orget what it was, it wasn't #uch. But, as I

told you, we #ade the# for 1@@ a week. And we had to !ay therent, and buy su!!lies and fil#, and !ay !eo!le to ink and !aint.And we had two ca#era#en.

ADAMSON

o the four of you arranged all the finances

HUEMER


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es. &hen we deli%ered the negati%e, we got 1@@. 6ro# Bud6isher's attorney. I'# afraid we didn't take ho#e #uch #oneyoursel%es.

ADAMSON

Is that why you ga%e it u!

HUEMER

/o, finally Bud 6isher decided not to do it any#ore. -e ga%e it u!.o we didn't ha%e any #oney. I went straight back to 6leischersfro# there. But 0ilette went with Bowers, and -arrison and 0ouldwent with int. But we had been, as I told you, the first co"o!erati%e.


46/152

)isney finally did %ery successfully""releasing his own !ictures. Itwasn't successful for the reason that in establishing these littleagencies and booking offices, he !aid out #ore than he took in forthe fil#s. It 3ust didn't work out. And that's the story as Iunderstand it. a$ was really the front #an, but of course he was

in e%ery one of the >oko the (lown cartoons.

ADAMSON

-e s!ent #ost of his ti#e in the front office and as an actor.

HUEMER

es, it see#ed to kee! hi# %ery busy. I ne%er saw hi# #uch in thedrawing roo#s. I #ean acti%ely !artici!ating. )a%e took o%er that

chore. )a%e handled it. And %ery well. It was fun working with)a%e.

ADAMSON

&hen you say it was fun, do you #eanH

HUEMER

)a%e had good ideas. &e laughed a lot, and said, '-ey, that'sfunny' 4r, '0reat &hy don't we do that.' *hat's how the businessof creation was carried on.

ADAMSON

ost of the !eo!le who ran ani#ation concerns then see# to gi%eout #ore than they take in. &hat ke!t their concerns going

HUEMER

&ell, I told you that 2at ulli%an #ade a lot of #oney on licensees.And *erry #ade #uch #oney on his being associated with ;>4. Iguess 6leischer #ust ha%e taken enough #oney in, at first, on his!ictures through states' righting the#. 4therwise he couldn't ha%eo!erated. At the ti#e I wouldn't say that he was a wealthy #en, asan owner of a co#!anyH certainly he was no #illionaire, the way)isney beca#e, or so#e of the others like -anna"Barbera, #y 0od&ow At any rate it was !retty touch and go. 6or a long ti#e. And

there was, as I told you, a crisis e%ery s!ring. &hether we weregonna get a new release or not...we called it getting a release. eryoften the release was out the front door.


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And wide #outh.

HUEMER

&ell, in a way, I su!!ose. &e did all our own inking. 6irst you

!enciled. And then you #ade the inbetweens, and you inked those.*hat re#inds #e now, I'# glad you #entioned thatH &ay back inutt and Jeff days when looking at a !iece of fil#, I noticed that%ery often the action was blurred in between, when so#ething was#o%ing fast. And I decided that I would sa%e all that work of in"betweening by 3ust ha%ing a bunch of lines or s#udges, 3ustscrabble, fro# !osition to !osition, when so#ething #o%ed fast. *o!ro%e it, I had an alar# clock flying through the air, and right in the#iddle of the action I !ut a brick. And when they ran the finished

fil# you didn't see the brick It !ro%ed that you didn't really seewhat was in the #iddle. But I o%erdid it, finally it looked likehaystacks in between, fro# !osition to !osition, and then Barre told#e to !lease knock it off. -e was always !olite. -e said softly, '5et's#ake the in"betweens like e%ery body else, eh' If you look at oldfil#s, you'll see often in a +uick action that the figure will beblurred. I got the idea of using lines to fill that s!ace in, going inthe direction of the action, roughly of course in the sha!e and sieof the character.

ADAMSON

*his is done today all the ti#e

HUEMER

It is done today By 0eorge I ne%er thought of that. /ow that you#ention it. *hat was really the "lue Streak, that's where #odernani#ationreall#ca#e fro#

ADAMSON

&hat do you #ean

HUEMER

I ean the stuff that -anna and Barbera do. In )isney's '*he*ortoise and the -are' we had the hare running so fast that he lefta blue streak trailing. &e always had this blue streak, and he 3ustwent across in about four drawing, lea%ing this long blue streak.*hat was the first ti#e it had been done. /ow they do the sa#e


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thing. Another )isney in%ention &hen I did it I had it #o%ing tooslow so you could see the lines.

*he (lown's not co#!arable to )isney's characteriation which, as Istarted to say before this, woke us all u! by trying for greater

realis#, which we either didn't then know enough to atte#!t orcare to atte#!t. At any rate we hadn't done it.

ADAMSON

ou were co!ying action off the ;otasco!e, isn't this the #ethodused to ani#ate the (lown

HUEMER

es. But that would only be one little scene in one of the shorts.And it was too e$!ensi%e to do. It #eant that all the action had tobeH first shot, !hotogra!hed, and then it would ha%e to be!ro3ected and so#ebody would ha%e to draw each fra#e. Andso#ebody would ha%e to change it, and so#ebody had to ink it. Allso that it didn't look too different fro# the ani#ation that washand"drawn.

ADAMSON

)id you do any of it

HUEMER

/o, I ne%er did any of it. *hat was !urely #echanical.

ADAMSON

It looked !retty realistic, though...

HUEMER

)id )a%e e%er #ention so#ebody by the na#e of )oc (randall

ADAMSON

/ot yet.

HUEMER

&ell, he should because when I ca#e to work for 6leischers he wastheir only ani#ator. -e used to do the ;otasco!e. -e used to


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trans!ose it fro# fil# to cartoon as well as do other bits ofani#ation.

ADAMSON

*here was only two of you, then, when you started with 6leischerHUEMER

/o, Burt 0ilette had gotten there before #e. And he got #e in.*hat's how it ha!!ened. -e'd been at utt and Jeff. -e had beensort of a sho! fore#an u! there. -e was head #an for a while, ranthe !lace. &hen it changed hands, after both Barre and Bowerswere out, 0ilette ran it for the Jefferson 6il# (or!oration. o whenhe left that !lace he went to the 6leischers, then he got #e in

there. It was a %ery s#all staff. I don't think there were #ore thanabout si$ !eo!le in on the !ro!osition.

ADAMSON

*he whole thing Including inkers and !ainters and ca#era#en

HUEMER

eah. o#ething like that. ay ten at the #ost.

ADAMSON

/ot e%en as big as Barre's !lace, then.

HUEMER

/o, it was %ery s#all, %ery coy little !lace. *hey were on the firstfloor of an old brownstone building on 7?th treet.

ADAMSON

*hey were #ore and less leading the field at the ti#e, weren'tthey

HUEMER

/o, *erry was already doing well. *erry had a head start, hadalready started his '6ables' o!erations. And 2at ulli%an was going

along too. I don't know of anybody else.ADAMSON


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)id you see #uch of the stuff turned out by the other studios

HUEMER

&hen I was with 6leischers, the only one who we consideredserious co#!etition and who we considered !erha!s as ha%ing theedge on us was the *errytoons. &e often went to see the# to studythe#. And we were often i#!ressed.

ADAMSON

&hen you say 'we' are you including the 6leischers

HUEMER

ure, the 6leischers too. &e were all friends, you know. It was as#all world.

ADAMSON

But they didn't resent the co#!etition

HUEMER

4h, no, nothing like that. *here wasn't enough in%ol%ed for that.)on't forget )isney was the big boy in those days, and there wasn'treally anybody that was anywhere near hi#. -e wasn't big at allbefore sound. In fact he was clearly nowhere before sound. I hadne%er heard of )isney until I went to the (olony *heater onBroadway and saw one of his silent '4swalds.' /ow this #ust ha%ebeen '=. 4r so#ewhere in there. And I liked it so well that it was acase of 'y gosh &ho was this guy, where'd he co#e fro#' And'*his is the best stuff' And, bad though it #ay look now, it looked,

wonderful to #e. And to usHother friends in the business. It wasn'tlong before sound ca#e out. &ith it ca#e )isney's s#ash cartoonssuccesses like '2lane (ray,' 'keleton )ance,' and 'tea#boat&illie.' But before that I think I'd seen about four or fi%e of )isney'sthings. I used to go deliberately to that theater 3ust to see the#. Ithought they were that good.

ADAMSON

-ow did you feel about this )id you feel any resent#entHUEMER


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2leasure.

ADAMSON

As a #e#ber of the industry

HUEMER

;ight. I ad#ired )isney as so#ebody who ga%e us so#ething to be!roud of. /o, there #ay ha%e been those who were 3ealous, but Ine%er was. And there were those who figured that if they tried to,and if they had &alt's secrets, and knew his tricks, they could dothe sa#e. %erybody thought &alt had so#e kind of dee! secretfor#ula. *hings known only to hi# that #ade his cartoons so good.

4utsiders really insisted that he had so#e cle%er trick or other. *heonly trick he e%er had was great genius and a!!lication, and his!erfectionis#. Boy, he had it It actually was a shot in the ar# forthe business. I was with the 6leischers and we all started #akingsound cartoons. *he only ones who did anything co#!arable at all,and they didn't e%er +uite reach )isney, were -ar#an and Ising.*hey occasionally would turn out a real good fil#. *hey workedso#ething like )isney. *hey had so#e of the feeling of a )isney,the only ones who e%er had it, they had it. *hey would occasionally

try to do so#ething significant. 5ike they would #ake a cartoonagainst war. &hich wasn't half bad. 4nce when they were in troublewith chlesinger )isney hel!ed the# out financially.

*here's a fa#ous story about &alter 5ant. -e used to gi%erunnings of his cartoons in theaters for kids on aturday. And oneti#e he ran all his 4swalds and then he a!!eared !ersonally onstage and talked to the kids. *hen when it was o%er he said, '/ow

what is the best cartoon in the world' And all the kids yelled out,'ickey ouse' *his actually ha!!ened.

ADAMSON

ou weren't %ery i#!ressed with the int organiation in the!eriod you were working there.

HUEMER

/ot too. I'll ad#it that we tried to #ake good !ictures. But, again,they didn't ha%e a %ery good release. I don't re#e#ber seeing#any of the# around. (olu#bia was releasing our stuff. ou see,


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(harlie int hi#self was a business#an. *o hi#, it was a goodway of #aking #oney. And that was the trouble with #any ofthe#. *hat was the trouble with chlesinger of &arner Brothers, itwas 3ust a source of inco#e for hi#. And while he was concerned,no doubt, in #aking the# good, he had no actual hand in

acco#!lishing this.

ADAMSON

&ell, describe working conditions at the int !lace.

HUEMER

*hey were fine for #e.

ADAMSON

ou had freedo#

HUEMER

4h, yes, co#!lete. It was !leasant for #e. And for those of us whowere bosses. 5ike -arrison and 0ould were there on '>ray >at.'And id arcus and Artie )a%is also, who were head#en of the'cra!!y' series.

ADAMSON

o you were directing

HUEMER

es, we directed. As well as ani#ating e%erything also.

ADAMSON

But you didn't ha%e to do your own inking or !ainting

HUEMER

/o. &hen you worked on !a!er, you did your own inking. &e did itat the 6leischers. %en the stuff that was trans!osed to cells, to beused o%er a !hotogra!h on the ;otasco!e, would be inked, And youdid you own inking.

-einrich >ley was a great !en and ink technician. &e ad#ired hi#.-e was a beautiful drafts#an. And the stuff had a cartoony,


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hu#orous a!!eal. &asn't straight drawing. And because, as I say,we sketched and did %arious e#bellish#ents with the !en and ink,which was fun to do, we tried to i#itate hi#. &e couldn't actuallyi#itate hi# because you couldn't actually i#itate his techni+ue. -isfigures were too full of lines. *hey weren't si#!le enough for the

tracing and retracing we had to do. &alt had a whole collection of>ley's stuff, -e !icked the# u! after the war, -e's got'e# fra#ed,down in )isneyland. *here's a !lace down there call

richard huemer interview

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