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COURT RESUMES ON THE 15TH OCTOBER, 1959. APPEARANCE AS BEFORE.

BY MR. WELSCH; My lord, I am today appearing on behalf of

Accused No. 30, with my learned frierds ilr. Kentridge and Mr, O'Dowd.

ANDRE?/ HOUSON MURRAY ; Duly sworn; EXAMINED 3Y MR. DE VPS :

Professor Murray, your full names are Andrew Houson Murray? That is so.

You are .a Professor of Philosophy, not so? University of Cape Town.

And since v/hen? 1937 o 5 What are your academic qualifications?

Graduate M.A. Stellenbosoh; B. litt. Oxford and D. Phil. Oxford.

What is your particular function as Professor of Philosophy at the University of Cape Tov/n? I am 10 chiefly responsible for the work on political philosophy and political science and I have been doing predominantly that work since 1935.

Did your work in any way insofar as you dealt with political science, did that include dealing with 15 Communism? All political science in a modern world has to deal with Communism. I have to study Communism, and I give lectures - have given lectures for many years on Communism every year.

What method of study do you follow, very 20 shortly Professor Murray, how do you set about studying the phenomenon of Communism? Seen as a whole? Basically

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one refers of course to the Communist classics..., BY MR. MAISELS;

One moment please. Is the witness reading? It looked to us from where he is that he is, My Lord. BY MR. DE VPS; 5

My Lords, there are a few notes, and if my learned friend wishes to have a copy he may have it, BY MR. MA IS ELS;

I don't understand that, My Lord. If there are notes to refresh your memory, that is perfectly alright.10 I can understand that. But I don't understand what my learned friend is talking about notes. What notes? He is not refreshing his memory on this, surely? BY MR. DE YOS;

My Lords, Professor Murray has made a few 15 notes about his qualifications and the way he tackles his studies about Communism, that is all. My learned friend is quite welcome to have a copy of the notes. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFE;

A question of a copy isn't involved at all. 20 Either the witness gives evidence, or he reads his evidence. And if he wants to read his evidence, then he can say so, and say 'I am reading my evidence, and I am giving a copy to the Court and to the Defence.' If he wants to refresh his memory, then that should be 25 put. That is a different matter. BY MR. DE VPS;

My Lord, that is not a full note of his evidence. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER: 50

Is he entitled to look at any notes whilst giving evidence, unless....

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BY MR. DE VPS; On a purely personal matter, My lord, - it

is purely a personal matter about jotting down the points lie intends making, I am quite prepared® ©, BY MR, JUSTICE RUMPFE; 5

I really don't know what you are referring to, BY MR, JUSTICE KENNEDY;

What notes are they? BY MR. DE VPS:

Well, My Lords, I will ask Professor Murray 10 to read out the notes to the Court, exactly as it stands before him now. I am prepared also to take back the notes, and ask Professor Murray not to look at the notes at all. (NOTES HANDED BACK TO MR. DE 70S). When setting about studying Communism, Professor Murray, how do you do 15

it? One refers to the classics, basically - you base your work on a study of the Communist classics. One has to keep in touch with current, standard, recognised pub-lications by scientists from Russia and the Communist bloc and the Western world, and one maintains contact 20 with thinking people in this country and overseas, people who work along these lines.

Have you in fact done so insofar as people overseas are concerned? — - Yes, As a University Profes-sor one has overseas associations, one is in correspon- 25 dence with them, and once in a while meets them and one talks with these people.

Have you had any personal contact with convinced Communists - adherents of Communists in the Union? At the time when the Communist Party was still in existence, 30 some of my acquaintances were members of the Party, and

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we talked over things. Are you connected with a certain publication

called Keesings? I act as the specialist adviser to Keesings for South Africa and the Rhodesias,

What is Keesings, very shortly, Professor 5 Murray? Keesings is a publication which publishes fortnightly - republishes fortnightly important statements on politics from over the world, from various parts. It is advised by specialists on various parts of the world, and it publishes an account of important events, a direct 10 account of the important events which happen to have taken place during the last fortnight.

What is the status of Keesings? Keesings serves as a source of reference for scientific - social scientific workers. It is used in the Parliamentary libraries, University libraries. It is used by foreign departments of the Government and so forth. It is - it has a good reputation as being scientific.

You prepared a note on Communism? Yes. On the phenomenon of Communism as a whole, 20

You have it in front of you? I have it here. I'll now ask you to give evidence on the

basis of that note. My lord, I don't know whether Your lordships have a copy available, I could make it available to Your lordships if that may be necessary, 25 BY MR. JUSTICE EUM7FF?

What do you want the witness to do? What sort of evidence is this, to give evidence on a note? BY MR. DE VPS;

My Lord, this is a scientific resume of a... 30 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPEF;

What do you mean by giving evidence 'on a note'?

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Do you want him to read it, or do you want him to give evidence? BY MR, DE VPS s

No, My Lord, he is giving evidence. It is merely there to refresh his memory on th.3 points he has to deal with, that is all. It is a systematic setting out of the facts of Communism, to refresh his memory,,, BY MR, JUSTICE RUMPFE;

Have you any authority for this type of evidence? BY MR. DE VPSs

Yes, My lord, I refer Your lordships to what is said by Wigmore on this point, BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

Do you want him to read the notes, to expand on them in reply to questions put by you and do you want him to hand in the notes? BY MR. DE VPS;

No, My Lord, I am asking him questions. I want him to testify in reply to the questions I am putting to the witness. To assist him, he has a note before him. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

Why has he got to have a note before him? - If that note isn't going to be handed in? BY MR. DE VPS;

Ely Lord, I am quite prepared to have it handed in. It is a systematic survey of Communism, My Lords, containing numerous quotations, references and scientific statements, and it will be very difficult for the witness to give a complete scientific survey merely

u> speaking from memory. Now I ask him to have a note before him, in reply to my questions as I lead the material,....

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BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF; Will you just refer me to the authority.

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF; The notes which Professor Murray has prepared

and written down, are they on many pages of foolscap? What are they? BY MR. DE VPS;

There are twenty-three typewritten pages, approximately, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

Now why didn't you have those notes typed? And why don't you deal with them as written evidence prepared by Professor Murray on which he is going to expound? He quotes a note, he reads it, he says this is my copy, he hands it to the Defence and to the Court, as he deals with that. BY MR. DE VPS;

My lord, that has been done so far, and the Defence has a copy of the^note. My lords, I refer Your lordships to Wigmore, paragraph 758, Volume 3. The heading is "Present Recollection Revived"; "Principle is stated where any writing may be used to stimulate and revive a recollection, since the narration of communication should represent actual recollection, it becomes necessary to

use various artificial written aids capable of misuse by these expedients - but these expedients for stimulating recollection may be misused so that the witness puts before the Court what purports to be but is not in fact his recollection and knowledge...." BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

How is that relevant here?

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BY MR. DE VPS; }By Lord, I am coming to the point,

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF; What recollection do you want to refresh?

BY MR. DE VPS; 5 My Lord, Professor Murray's scientific recol-

lection - his scientific statement with a full scientific analysis of a certain point, certain scientific point, plus the references to certain classical writers which he has put together in a form of a properly constructed note, so IP as to give it to the Court in systematic form. I could of course take away the note and let the witness proceed... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

But are you not going to ask him questions? BY MR. DE VPS; 15

I am, certainly, My Lord. I am certainly going to ask him questions, but quite obviously, My Lord, on certain points Professor Murray could hardly remember exactly the tenor of the reply he has to give, for instance.. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER; 20

What type of point have you in mind? BY MR. DE VPS;

Reference to classical works, BY MR. JUST ICE BEKKER;

Shouldn't he have the classical works here 25 then? BY MR. DE VPS;

Quotations from certain classical works, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF; 30

Shouldn't he have the classical works here? BY MR. DE VPS;

He has, My Lord,

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BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER; Then he doesn't need the note, does he?

BY MR. DE VPS; But he does need the reference at least, My lord.

It is merely the reference to the classical works, appended 5 to the statement. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF:

Appended to what statement? BY MR. DE VPS;

To a scientific statement of what he proposes IP to state. But I'll take the note, My Lord... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

Then you want him to read his evidence. BY MR. DE VPS;

Not necessarily, My Lord. 15 BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

Then you want him to give evidence which he previously reduced to writing? And you want him to read that. But that is not the way to give evidence in this Court. 2P BY MR. DE VPS;

My Lord, not on ordinary facts, not in the sense that you give evidence on a certain accident for instance or what happened on a certain day, quote obviously not, My Lord. But if there is a scientific systematic statement 25 of a certain scientific subject, I submit My Lords, that it is quite in order for a witness to - a qualified, expert witness to prepare a written note to assist him in putting the case properly before the Court. BY MR.' JUSTICE KENNEDY; 30

Apart from what you have read from Wignore, what else do you rely on?

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BY Ml. JUSTICE RUMPF?; On the very proposition that you have no?/ put,

that a scientific expert, an expert witness can reduce his %

evidence to writing and then read it out? BY MR, DE VPS; 5

For instance, My Lord, I refer to the practice which is wellktiown to the Court of medical men reading in Court a written report, and he hands that in as a "basis for his evidence. He goes through the facts in that particular report, as Your Lordship will know quote well from 10 experience, and he is asked to testify on those facts. His evidence is really what he speaks about, what he says, but he has that written report containing the technical terms and what he intends saying about that particular post mortem, and so forth, before him, 15 BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER;

Isnft the position this. You are calling an expert. He is going to give the Court the benefit of his opinion, as an expert. He relies on certain books, authorities, to assist him. Those books and authorities 20 which the witness will use or may use, should be in Court here, because if he reads from a Document, the Defence cannot cross-examine that document. He should have the authorities here to make use of. Wouldn't it be "better to take away the notes and proceed? Let the witness give 25 his own evidence, BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

In the matter to which you have referred to, now there is a report on the mental condition of a person, I take it that is what you referred to. I am 30 referring to what you mentioned, A report in connection with the mental condition of people.

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BY MR. DE VPS; Of medical men, yes,

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF; What they put in the report are the facts

which, after an examination, they have written down, and they are entitled to refresh their memories, because they wrote it down so many months ago, and they now say 'May I have the report and refresh my memory in regard to the facts', and on those facts they give their opinion, which they don't read from the document, BY MR. DE VPS;

My lord, not merely that... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

What else is there? What other authority have you got? BY MR. DE VPS;

May I just read this, My Lord. I read from Scoble, page 198; "In the ordinary course of the evidence of medical men his opinions are furnished in the form of a written report which the medical man reads in Court and hands in as his evidence, though he should be examined as to his data and basis of conclusions." That refers then to Rex versus van Schalkwyk BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY:

No authority is needed for that, Mr. de Vos. We know that. But this is on an entirely different footing, is it not? Though the District Surgeon or whoever conducts the report, relies on facts, which he has discovered of himself from an actual examination. Now if Professor Murray is going to give evidence, should he not have all the books before him, and as you put questions to him, if he wants he supports his opinion

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by referring to his source. Isn't that the proper way to do it? BY MR. DE VPS.-

I can do it in that way, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE REMEDY: 5

Is there any other way of doing it? BY MR. DE VPS;

% Lord, in my submission, it is quite in order for a man of science to have a systematic survey of the subject he is dealing with before him, setting out syste- IP matically the subject matter he is to cover. That could only assist the Court and proceedings in Court in expediting the position, putting it very clearly, whereas a man who has to deal with matter, even matter with which he is fully conversant, if he deals with that ad lib 15 BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY;

The Prosecutor could put questions to the witness, and then he can give an answer and say 'for my opinion on this I rely on such and such..,' and then refer to that work and quote from it, and hand the work in, 2P

BY MR. DE VPS; My Lord, that cculd be done up to a certain

point, because it makes it more difficult for the witness to cover a fairly vast subject like that of Communism.,.„ 25 BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY s

That may be, it is a difficult subject, BY JiR. DE VPS;

I prefer to do it ijft that Miiner, My Lord. My Lords^ as I say I was intending merely to hold Professor $0 - to have Professor Murray use his note as an aid memoir to assist M a in r)utt?ng systematically his point of view,

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But I am quite prepared... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

You have quoted no authority for this pro-cedure, Mr. de Vos, and it is a novel procedure. The man can write down his evidence and then refer to it. 5 BY MR. BE VOS;

My lord, it is merely the writing of views to revive recollection, without being part of the evidence, and that is dealt with - that position, by Wigmore in the sections quoted, 758 to 763. "Writing used to revive 10

recollection is not part of the testimony, yet the jury may see it to determine the propriety of its use." BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER;

But what recollection has this witness got to revive if he is an expert? 15 BY MR. DE VOS;

My Lord, quite obviously, even an expert is - may not always rely on his memory.... BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER;

Then he must have the material on which he 20 relies in Court. BY MR. DE VOS;

Yes, but it is difficult for him to have all that material in his head, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY; 25

He needn't keep it in his head. You can ask a question and say - on this point ask the witness 'Have you any views or have you formulated any opinion on this point'. 'Yes, I have. This is the situation, I rely on this authority'. 30 BY MR. DE VOS;

At least, My Lord, I submit the authorities

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on which he intends relying for a certain proposition, in that way his memory could "be refreshed. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF:

Well, the authorities should then • ••• BY MR. DE VPS;

» Yes, but the reference to a particular authority on a particular point - he is not always in a position to

» remember half a dozen different authorities supporting a particular statement he wishes to make. If he has to do that purely frommemory and without the aid of a note, it might be a grave disadvantage to the witness concerned, and I submit that there is no... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

Well, if he is an expert, he is an expert. BY MR. DE VPS;

ly Lord, but even an expert cannot hold forth with all the data from memory purely, and not without any reference to legal works, for instance - in the case of a legal expert, to scientific works of various kinds. BY MR. JUSTICE REMEDY;

I always thought that the proper way to do that is that if you are going to quote from any authority - what every Counsel does himself, he tabulates what he is going to do, and puts a tab in in regard to the quota-tion which he wants to use, exactly as you have done in your books there. That is the way. You must know your briefs, and rely on those authorities for this statement, BY MR. DE VPS:

My Lord, if that is so, then I submit it cannot do any harm to have that particular reference, the page number and the reference put to the expert, or having it in front of him as a note.,,.

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BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF; There can't be any objection to a work of

reference being put to a witness. It has never been objected to. If he is an expert, then he is entitled to refer to that. That is not what you want, 5 BY MR. IE VPS;

Hot the whole of it, My lord. As Your lord-ships please. I'll ask the expert to hand me the notes. EXAMINATION BY MR. IE VPS CONTINUED;

Now, Profess or Murray, dealing with Communism,10 the constituent elements of Communism broadly, what are they? My lords, Communism is a philosophy which covers all things. It has a philosophical basis. It implies a system of organisation and is also a philosophy which demands that the philosophy should be put into practice. 15 It is not merely scheme of thought, but it stands in direct relation with things happening in the world.

Could you then concisely summarise what you consider to be the elements of Communism? Very concisely?

It consists, primarily, as I said, of a philosophy 20 which is the wellknown dialectical materialism and histori-cal materialismc. It then consists of a social philosophy which has to do with the State - a society rather, better than the State, a society. And it has to do particularly with economics, political economics involving criticism 25 of certain systems and proposing other systems of exchange and so forth.

Now will you with regard to the theory of Communism, or we can call it the doctrine of Communism, - what is that called? Dialectical materialism, and a 30

part of that of course is historical materialism. Have you any other collective name for the

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the whole "body of theory of Communism, the "body of the doctrine which is the basis of Communism, which might be considered by you to be the basis? Just a question of terminology? It is usually referred to as dialectical materialism, the basis of the philosophy of Communism, 5

^ What is the underlying doctrine called? Of dialectic materialism?

|H We will leave it for the moment at that,

Professor Murray. What are - what would you call - what are the classical work3 on which the doctrine of Communism 10 is based? The classical works of Communism are based on Marx - the works of Marx and Bngels, then Lenin, and in more modern times the works of Stalin and I would mention Mao-Tse-tung, as one of the classics of Communism. The whole doctrine of course is called Marxism-Leninism, it is 15 referred to as Marxism-Leninism very obviously.

That is the term I was alluding to a moment ago, Professor. Now very shortly, what is the origin of Marxism-Leninism? Marxism-Leninism derives from the writings of Frederick Engels and Karl Marx, who propounded 20 the basis of the theory, and it was then developed by Lenin, as I said a minute ago, and ultimate - further on by Stalin, and Mao-Tse-Tung and there are a few other classical works association with this.

What is the importance to Communism of these 25 classical sources you have mentioned? Communism stays very close to the classics. It inculcates the classics into the members of the party, and it adapts its policy or applies the teachings of the classics to its practical policy in economics, politics and in other spheres. 30

Returning to the term Marxism-Leninism, will

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you give basic sub-divisions of that term? Or that con-cept? Of the philosophy developed in it?

Yes? It consists basically of dialectic materialism and historic materialism, and then it goes on to a social philosophy and onto a political theory.

Returning to terms you used, dialectical materialism is the one term, shortly what do you mean by that? Very shortly for the moment just - you mentioned a few terms. You mentioned dialectical materialism. You have also mentioned historical materialism. You have also mentioned a certain system flows from that. Now what is the relationship to begin with, between dialectical

materialism and historical materialism? Dialectical materialism in the first place is a materialist philosophy. The basis of things is matter, matter which has certain qualities, and from the nature of matter derives the other aspects of the universe, of life. But the nature of matter is the basis from which the rest, including society, derives. It is called dialectic because the main characteris-tic of this type of matter, this quantitive matter, is that it is dialectic, that is that it moves, is in move-ment, is always in self-movement and moves through its opposites. I should perhaps say there are three laws governing dialectic movement. The first is the law of unity and strikes (?) ofopposites. The second is the law of the negation and the third is the law by which quantity becomes quality. It is an old concept in phil-osophy that things exist by virtue of their opposites, and that evolutional process takes place through the synthesis of two opposites into a higher form of synthesis. I should perhaps just say this, further on

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in that development - I could go on, but the theory is that the development of experience of the universe generally takes place through leaps. The thesis contains its own opposite in it and the opposite and the thesis strife -have strife or struggle, and then there is a leap and a 5 new situation in which both these are absorbed occurs, is created.

How does this in basic philosophy or these concepts you refer to, which are contained in dialectical materialism, how does that link up with historical materialism?10 What is the relationship between the two? Historic materialism is the application of the principles of dialec-tic materialism to the world of human history. On this doctrine history also worked dialectically. A certain situation takes place, it evolves its own opposite, 15

the two have a struggle, and then a new situation is developed. Especially Engels more particularly, but Marx also and Lenin applied this to the economic history of society. They regard all society as always having been in a struggle - in a state of struggle, and the 20 process is a process of evolution, if you like, or rather of leaps by which new forms appear out of the struggle of the two earlier forms.

Now will you very shortly refer to the political economy concept as part of Marxism-Leninism? 25 What is the theory... BY MR. MAISEIS:

My Lord, I am sorry to interrupt my learned friend, but the witness referred to Marx and Engels having said these things. Presumably they said it some- 30 where, and therefore he should tell us where they said it.

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BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF; I take it you will get more detail later,

I think this is all introductory. I heard Counsel say "say very shortly", and I was amazed at the attempt to get little things like that very shortly, but I take it this 5 is mere introduction. BY MR. DE VPS;

That is so, My Lord, The witness will be asked to refer to authorities as we go along. It is an attempt at this stage to get the context of a few ideas, IP and the meaning, in broad outline, EXAMINATION BY MR. DE VPS RESUMED;

Pn a theory of political concept as it exists - the theory of a concept of political economy as it exists as part of Marxism-Leninism, will you shortly say 15 what it means, what it amounts to? In the Marxist-Leninis.t political economy the principles of historic materialism are applied to the economic v/orld and the political structure in which economic relations operate and exist, and the thesis is the theory developed, that 20 there also is a struggle between opposites and ultimately a further solution will be achieved when the thesis and the antithesis finally disappear.

And the term Marxist-Leninist socialism, what does that mean? By Marxist-Leninist socialism 25

a is meant the type of s ociety when private property -production for profit is no longer the basis of the economic processes, but when ultimately a position will be achieved which is really more technically referred to as Communism, when people will receive not according to 30 their work, but according to their need.

Now what points - if you think back on the

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question of dialectical materialism, Professor Murray, which you stated to be the philosophical basis, as I under-stood it of Marxism-Leninism, what are the points in that system of philosophy which deserve special mention or which you would like to emphasise? — - I could emphasise many 5 points. I think the important features of dialectical materialism is primarily that it puts the emphasis on matter, the world outside is the real world, ideas are really - the way of thinking of people are the - in the result of the processes of nature, of matter outside. 10

The world is not made by mind or constituted by mind, it consists of matter, and mind is a reflex of the material conditions. In that way society is conditioned by the material conditions on which it is based. The form of society, the institution of the society, the ways of 15 thinking of society, are the outcome of the material con-ditions which according to Marx-Lenin carry that society.

Professor Murray, are you in the position -I am afraid I am taking your notes now - but are you in a position to refer at this moment now to the classical 20 works supporting your theory on dialectical materialism and historical materialism. If you are not in a position,

now, will you please tell me that and I'll,,..? There are so very many references to dialectical materialism and historical materialism. Das Kapital uses that 25 principle, Marx uses that principle in the analysis of capital, the nature of capital economy. The materialism appears more particularly in Feuerbach, Thesis on Feuer-bach. The Antiduring (?) has a good deal of that, that is by Engels. Lenin wrote his Imperial Criticism, which 30 is a criticism of a certain elements in materialism and believes that there should be - he puts his materialism

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theree I could mention these things which are spread all over the text. Stalin, I may say, in his leninism, has an article on that.

Nov/, given time to extract your references, you could give all these quotations to the Court? I 5 could give closer references certainly, I can't carry them in my head.

Quite obviously note And the references are on the notes which you had before you? Some of them. There are many references on this point, 10

My Lord, my difficulty at present is that I won't be able to put those references to the witness.... BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF;

If the witness has made a list of works, with pages etc. then he can look at it and say 'This is the 15 list of works that I have prepared, this Volume 1, page so-and-so, title'. Obviously he can do that. BY MR. DE VPS;

I realise that, Ely Lord, but unfortunately the witness has not separated that particular list of 2P authorities from the rest of his notes, so it is part of the note as a whole, and I am not in a position to nut the references to him now. EXAMINATION BY MR. DE VPS RESUMED;

You referred, Professor Murray, to the basis 25 of society being a certain - consisting of - what were the elements that you mentioned? — - The theory of society is that it is a super-structure based on a sub-structure.

Nov/ will you very carefully explain to t^e Court first of all what do you mean - what is meant by the 30

sub-structure? The theory is that there is a sub-structure which is basically materialist, and the super-

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structure is then the society in its various forms. In

the capitalist system the sub-structure consists of the

material conditions of production. There are animate and

inanimate conditions of production. The inanimate condition

of production are the things like climate, mountains,

ground, type of soil etc. The animate conditions of

production are the activities of the type of worker who

works there or who lives there and the type of pooplo who

operate under these conditions. In that way you get the

forces of production which still belong to the sub-structure

But as people co-operate to make a living, they naturally

establish relations of production, and so there arises the

super-structure ...

You are now on the second part? I am now

on the second part, I have gone on to the super-structure.

The super-structure consists of the institutions of the

society, government institutions, legal institutions,

social institutions, religious institutions, ertistic, etc.

and so forth, and it consists of the way the people who

live in these constitutions think. But the form and shape

- the point that Marx makes, is that the form and shape of

these institutions are the result of, or reflect, or are

conditioned by the sub-structure which are the material

conditions of production. And'" people think, not originally

but ^according to the institutions in which they live and

which form and condition the type of their thinking. I

think I can quote thero. Marx says that the consciousness

of man does not make society, but social conditions create

the consciousnesssof man. My quotation isn't quite correct

but it is near enough, I think.

'There do the classes or the theory of the

classes or the existence of classes, whatever you might

22. (A.H• MURRAH)

like to call it, where does that come in into the picture?

Following on what you have just said about sub-structure

and super-structure, is there any link between the two?

Yes. As conditions of production develop, the super-

structure, the way people think, is apt to lag behind. 5

The institutions don't always adapt themselves to the new

forms of production, the changed forms of production, the

changed material conditions and so forth. The result is

that two classes appear. The people who opera te the

production, who work in the conditions of production, form 10

one class. The people who have to do with the super-

structure, with the institutions of society, that is the

government and the so-called ruling class, form another

class, and each one has its own way of thinking, looking

at things and these two classes are quite separate from 15

each other.

They are separa te. What is the relationship

between these two classes, apart from their being separate?

The relationship develops according to Marx-Lenin into

a. relationship of struggle. The reason is that the pro- 20

ductive forces develop, they change. For instance, on the

feudal system to later - to the industrial system, whereas

the institutions of society lag behind. The result is

that your sub-structure is inclined to disappear from

under the super-structurc, and the class struggle consists 25

in the attempt of the class of the super-structure - let

us call it the capitalist class - to maintain its position,

to maintain its interests which were based on the elder

form of production, while the class of the sub-structure

demands now conditions of existence because of the changed JO

forms of production which have developed.

I would just like you to be very clear on this

23. (A.Hi MURRAY)

this point, Professor Murray- You talk about the class of

the sub-structuro and the class of the supcr-structurc•

Nov; could you shortly - what do you mean by the class of

the sub-structure end the class of the super-structure?

Marx callcd what I referred to as the class of the sub- 5

structure the proletariat. His argument is that originally...

Is that for all periods of history or for a

specific period? For a moment theory I am handling the

Marxist theory of the capitalist - development in the

capitalist period. His argument is that... 10

I am sorry to interrupt you again. You men-

tioned the name proletariat',. Will you just explain that

as you go along? I was going to do that now. His argu-

ment is that in history at some time every man who produced

a thing owned the tools with which he produced his goods, 15

which he sold or exchanged for a living. But as industrial

mothods of development were discovered and applied, it

happened increasingly that the man who produced was -

became disassociated from the instrument or the tools of

production. And all that the labourer therefore could sell, 20

all that he could sell to make his living from, was his

own labour power. And Marx refers to that class as the

proletariat, the class which lives by selling its labottfE'-

power with nothing more. It has no property to use for

production. The other class, which I referred to as the 25

class of the super-structure, the capitalist closs if

you like, or the dominating class, consists of the

people who have managed to get hold of the instruments

of production, that is the factories and so on, and that

was made possible by the particular feature of indus- 30

trialiscd production and latsr on financial techniques-

They own the instruments of production, and they are

24. (A.Hi MURRAY)

therefore able to dominate and control the proletariat

who can only sell their labour to the capitalist class

to work in the -factories. The struggle between these

two classes is the class struggle-

Now shortly, what is the scheme of history 5

as seen in terms of this theory you have expounded? Just

very shortly, Professor Murray, are there several stages

of hiatory according to Communism? Their argument is

that there always has been a class struggle, excepting in

the very, very primitive forms, when people were supposed 10

to live by hunting, when there was no exploitation. You

then get the stage of slavery, when the owner of the slaves

formed one class and the exploited the slaving class.

You then got the feudal system, with the system of the serfs,

when the feudal class - the baronial class, the landowing 15

class, I beg your pardon, the landowing class exploited

the serf class. Then comes the capitalist period in which /

we are now, when the capitalist, the owner of the instru-

ment of production exploit the proletariat, who have labour

power only to sell. .And the theory is that this stage will 20

mark the end of the historial class struggle, and that

under the - when Communism has been achieved, there will

not be production for profit, or there will not bo

individual ownership of instruments of production and

factories, and the class struggle will then cease. That 25

is very briefly put, the theory of history.

Now you talk of the achievement of Communism.

What do you mean by that? Is that a stage that is

historial or contemporaneous or how will you describe

that? If you could put it into a perspective of time? JO

Tho appeal there is to the dialectical mc+crialism,

of course, but I - The appeal there is to tho dialectical

25. (A.Hi MURRAY)

materialism. Matter has basically the nature that it

changes through its opposite- That is the law of nature,

so to say. It is a deeper law even than the law of

nature. So that this development of history which leads

to capitalism exploiting the proletariat, must inevitably 5

lead to the ultimate achievement of communism, because

capitalism produces its ovm opposite in it, namely the

proletariat. The proletariat will ultimately destroy

capitalism and then the classless society will be formed. ,10.

Is that a stage that has in fact been achieved 10

in history so far? I don't think anybody has suggested

that we have actually achieved the ultimate form of

Communism, but it has been claimed that history has

developed to a stage very near the ultimate achievement.

In what areas of the world would that be? Just 15

very shortly - I don't want a lengthy exposition?

In the areas I suppose commonly known as the Communist

bloc, if I may use a newspaper term. In the areas where

revolutions have taken place and where the society has

reached the stage of a dictatorship of the proletariat 2<

or is just about reaching that stage.

The concept of the dictatorship of the prole-

tariat will be dealt with hy you at a later stage aga$s

But for the moment we leave it at that. Nov; what is the

relationship between theory and practice in Communism? 25

How do they s tand - in what relationship do they stand?

Communism puts emphasis on the point that theory

and practice.are closely united, they are really identical.

That comes from the fact that the mind reflects the

material development. So that in order to achieve this 50

change which must come in society, it is absolutely

necessary that the proletariat should be informed, that

26. (A.Hi MURRAY)

they should understand their position clearly, they should

have good theoretical foundations, they should be politically

se 1 f-3c'Gaci6vit;> because the theory reflects - is condi-

tioned by the material conditions of a particular situation-

Now crming to a criticism of capitalism as 5

stated by Communism* Uhnt would you term the basic

principle on which that criticism is based? What basic

principle on which that criticism is based? What basic

point of departure do the Communists use when they criti-

cise the capitalist, system. What is their point of

departure? Their point of departure is that at the 10

present stage capitalism has come to its end - the end of

its historical development- It is now showing signs of a

final disruption, when the revolutionary stage will take

over •

Just before you get to that, Professor Murray, 15

what the Communist -cheery of value? 01' surplus value?

The Communiat...

The Communist theory, and what is it? — - It

is accepted by the Communists, yes. Marx based his

criticism of capitali:r: on the particular theory of value, 20

which is basically the labour theory cf value- His argu-

ment is that under capitalism, when the proletariat has

nothing to 3ell foi a living but its lobout, the owners

of the instruments of production are able to buy that

labour at their own terms. Nov; the value cf a commodity 2^

which is produced is for Marx basically expressed in the

amount of' labour that is put into that value, into that

commodity to produce it. In other words, the class which

really produces the commodity is the class which labours

in the production of that commodity. That is called the 50

labour theory of value. Nov/, under the capitalist system

2 7 . (A.Hi MURRAY)

the owner of the factory hires the labourer and pays him a

subsistence wage for his labour, no more- The labourer

is able to eara just enough to retire to his home in the

evening to replace the energies which he spent during that

day in production. But, he is expected - he is forced by 5

the capitalist to work for longer hours than is necessary

to earn his subsistence, and a reasonable extra to keep

the factory going. In other words, the labourer may

produce enough commodity to pay his wage, his subsistence

wage by working shall wo say three hours. And perhaps 10

another hour to pay wear and tear and so forth on the

factory, on the machinery. Actually, he is made to work

eight or ten or twelve hours. The remaining hours - the

value produced by his labour in the remaining hours goes

to the capitalist, and that amount, that item Marx referred 15

to es the surplus value. In other words, the labourers do

not get the full value of whet they produce, but he is

paid a subsistence wage and the capitalist gets the rest.

Where docs this theory of surplus value lead

to? What follows on that in terms of Communist...? 20

According to the analysis - the analysis then goes on.

As the capitalist class increases its surplus value,

they are able to build more factories and therefore they

get more surplus value. Meanwhile the capitalists them-

selves compete with each other and the stronger push out 25

the weaker, so that ultimately the proletariat class

grows increasingly by being joined up by the smaller

petit bourgeois class, which has been pushed into their

ranks, because they can't maintain themselves under the

higher concentration of capital. There are throe effects JO

of surplus value, three laws as Karl Marx calls them:

The law of the accumulation of capital, that is to say the

!

28. (A.Hi MURRAY)

capital is inclined to be accumulated into the hands of a

smaller and smaller group all the time, - I beg your pardon,

the law of the accumulation of capital refers to the fact

that money flows where there is money. Capital is inclined

to get - to be collected in the hands of the people who 5

have already got capital. The second is the law of the

concentration of capital, which means that within the

capitalist system there is a concentration of capital in

the hands of groups, which become smaller and smaller.

And the third is the law of increasing misery. As a result 10

of the other two laws, the proletariat class grows, poverty

increases, misery increases and therewith the antithesis

between the two classes increases.

You mentioned one term, Professor Murray. I

don't think you have explained it before, and will you do 15

so shortly now. You mentioned the term bourgeoisie and a

form of petit bourgeoisie. Will you just explain these

terms? By the bourgeois class is understood the class

which owns instruments of production, which is therefore

independent, can make its living by the property which it 20

owns. The petit bourgeoisie, petty bourgeoisie in English,

is the smaller capitalist, the man who has a little money

and is able to make an existence, to be independent in a

smaller way. The distinction there between them is what

we would commonly call tho big capitalist and I should say 25

the upper middle class-

Now flowing what you have just said about

the concentration of capital, what are its contradictions

inherent in capitalism as seen by the Communists. Flowing

from what you just said about the concentration of 50

capital, and - accumulation and concentration of capital

and so forth? What are tho contradictions of capitalism?

29. (A.H. MURRAY)

- As seen by the Communists? The capitalist system

at the present stage consists of various contradictions, a

whole long listtof them. The one is the repeated crises.

There are periods of inflation and deflation which bring

social unhappiness. There is the waste of production, over- 5

production and the waste of production and so forth. The

main contradiction - there is of course the fact of wars.

Capitalists compete on a National basis, and the result is

that capitalism inevitably brings a war. The main contra-

diction in capitalism on a Marxist analysis, is the fact 10

that capitalism breeds its own opposite, contains the germ

of its own death. But there can't be capitalists unless

there is a proletariat. Because of the laws of accumulation

of capital and concentration of capital, the capitalist

class gets smallor and smaller, and the proletariat class 15

gets larger and larger, until ultimately the capitalist

class must disappear undor the force which it has itself

bred in the proletariat, or the proletarian class. In

other words, following the dialectics capitalism contains

its own opposite, its own death within itself. 20

Apart from these more specifically economic

objections to capitalism, what are - possibly what could

be colled moral objections to capitalism as chiefly

emphasised by Communists? - — The Communists morally

object to capitalism, because it produces a state in which 25

there is an oppressor class and an oppressed class, and

the one class in the state, oppressive of the other

class, nationally and internationally the criticism is

that the capitalist system produces oppressor nations

with colonial nations, which consist of the people who 50

are oppressed. They also speak of semi-colonial people

and so on.

50. (A.H. MURRAY)

Nov;, what is the view taken by Communism

of the status of a worker under the capitalist system?

Yes, I could have mentioned that as one of the moral

criticisms. Communism criticises the capitalist system

for reducing the worker to the status of merely a commodity. 5

The worker as a person does not share in the product, the

value of his product. He merely sells his labour on the

open market for the best price he can get for his labour.

His labour is one item of commodity as any other item of

commodity which is sold on the open market, and the 10

personal, the human element of the labourer and the

labouring class is disregarded.

Returning to the class struggle in bourgeois

or capitalist society. Is it correct to mention bourgeois

society as being synonymous with capitalist society? 15

Yes, generally, yes.

Nov/ coming to the class struggle in bourgeois

society, v/hat is the attitude of the proletariat towards

the bourgeois society or state in which they stand, in

which they live? According to the Communists? The 20

argument is that the bourgeois state must disappear, it

must bo destroyed, and it must make place for the

Communist state which shall operato -without profit, and

without class struggle.

V/hat are the conceptions as to loyalty towards 25

the state of society as held by the proletariat in a

bourgeois state? The Communist preaches that the

primary loyalty of the proletariat is to the interests

of the proletariat. The proletariat is an international

class, as the capitalists are an international class, JO

because capitalism has become international, and therefore

the interest of the opposing class are also international.

31. (A.Hi MURRAY)

Therefore the primary loyalty of the proletariat Is to proletariat Interests, and since these Interests have been achieved better in some - since the protection of these interests have been achieved bettor in some states, specially Russia, the primary loyalty of the proletariat and a 5 member of the Communist Party must be to Russia.

In this class struggle, what are the methods usod by the proletariat? Could you very shortly at this stage suggest tho type of methods - tho categories of methods thoy would use of conducting the struggle? 10 The theory of....

Are tho two linked, in Communism, the theory of method and tho practical application of the method? Ultimately yes, yes. You question concerns tho theory of method? 15

The theory of method? According to Communist theory, the method used to upset the State, to create the revolution, must fit the conditions which exist, and any and all methods must be used, moral or immoral, constitu-tional or unconstitutional, and legal or illegal, according 20 to the stage which the revolution has reached in that particular locality under these - at that particular time.

Now, Professor Murray, I want you to pass to a further phase of the theory, that namely dealing with imperialism. Will you very shortly explain what is meant 25 by imperialism in Communist parlance? For Communist doctrine, imperialism marks the end of the capitalist period of history, and the capitalist system of economics. Imperialism comes into existence when capitalism becomes JO international and goes to leave the homeland and penetrates other parts of the world for production and exploitation.

32. (A.Hi MURRAY)

Imperialism really arises when a certain amount of accumu-lation of capital and concentration of capital has taken place, ao that a system of monopolies, trusts, cartels and so forth arises, so that really free competition and individual initiative - free trade and free competition 5 are no longer operative, and the capitalist system is run by vast concentrated financial interests. These interests exploit all parts of the world, but they - but that stage shows that capitalism is reaching its climax.

As far as the world seen as a whole is con- 10 cerned, what is said to be from the Communist point of view, the relationship between imperial powers, imperial states? What do they do about the world as a whole? According to the theory there are today two camps - firstly, the imperial powers have divided the world among themselves, 15 so that the imperialist world consists of two groups of people or countries, the dominating country and the exploited or oppressed or colonial or semi-colonial country.

Looking at the world as a whole again, what is 20 the relationship between the capitalist or the imperial powers and the powers of the Communist bloc? How do they see that? On the Communist theory, the world is divided between the two inevitable opposites. On the one hand there is the communist bloc, which regards itself as on the way to the final achievement of communism, which is a peace-loving bloc, and on the ether hand there is the imperialist or capitalist bloc, referred in current Communist literature as the warmongering bloc, as the bloc of countries which want to protect capitalism and therefore must promote a war.

What in effect, flowing from that then,

(a.H. MURRAY)

•what in effect is the theory of peace as Communists see it? How is peace to "be achieved? — — Peace, on the Communist doctrine, can only be achieved when profit as a motive for production and productive activity has been abolished, so that people get there requirements according 5 to their needs and not according to their labour even, and much less according to the labour power which they sell on the open market. Peace therefore can only be achieved on a Communist system, whereas the nature of the competitive economics employed by capitalism inevitably 10 means and has meant in the past, war.

Now according to the Communists, can Imperialism as seen by them and peace be reconciled? No. Stalin, in his very last speech at the 19th Congress made the point that for peace to be made, imperialism must be 15 destroyed. BY MR. MAISELS :

My Lord, I object to that pieve of evidence, does this witness know what Stalin said at the 19th

Congress. That is a typical piece, which he cannot give 20 as an expert unless he was present unless he has some other source - unless he has some original information, but he cannot give it that way. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF :

Well, we don't know yet ... 25 BY MR. MAISELS :

Well, My Lord, the foundation must be laid initially, if Your Lordship pleases, not subsequently. Sub-structure before super-structure, to use the witness' own analysis. 3° BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF :

Well, he con refer to a document which purports

(A.H. MURRAY)

to represent Communist theory and containing that speech. BY MR. MAI3EL5 :

Not by itself, My Lord. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF:

No, when he says that Stalin sad so, that may 5 be inadmissible, it if he says that Stalin was reported to have said that, that is different. EXAMINATION BY MR. DE VPS RESUMED :

In any event, P " giving now when you speak: about imperialism - is it your 10 own opinion of the communist conception of imperialism? Yes.

You convey your own opinion of the Communist conception of Com - of imperialism? Yes.

Your expert opinion? Yes. 15 You mentioned something...? Imperialism

and war. Now apart from what Stalin said, what is your

opinion about the Communist theory on that particular question? It is quite clear on Communist theory that 20 they regard Imperialism as Inevitably associated with war, and that if them is to be a state of peace on earth, imperialism must be destroyed.

And is that opinion of yours confirmed by something you - according to your Information, was said 25 by Stalin? BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF :

Are you going to refer to that now, or later? BY MR. DE VPS :

Later, My Lord. 30 BY ia.JUSTICE RUMPFF :

Then refer to it later.

35. (A.Hi MURRAY)

BY MR, DE VPS : I'll leave It then for later, My Lord,

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF : Well, the witness will certainly be given

an opportunity to deal with the authority in support of 5 the evidence that ho is giving now, EXAMINATION BY MR. DE VPS RESUMED :

Coming again to a different concept, Professor Murray, the concept of fascism in Communist theory again. Will you explain that to the Court? What do Communists 10 mean when they refer to fascism? Communists use the term fascism in a somewhat specialised sense. They under-stand by fascism that stage of capitalism when capitalism has become so concentrated in a country that it has destroyed liberalism and individualism and now shelters 15 behind the parliamentary system for its protection. The argument is that in the capitalist countries, where fascism has come in, the parliamentary system no longer operates on the liberal basis, but actually the State has become a police State, parliament is merely a camouflage for a con- 20 centration of capitalist power, and parliament is used as an instrument for - to protect and promote the Interests of the capitalist classof that country.

What flew s from this as far as the tactics employed by the Communists are concerned? In thoory to 25 be employed, in relation to Parliament? It follows In the theory of Communism that the class struggle is also a struggle against fascism and that the warmongering countries which do not bolong to the Soviet bloc, are fascist countries and that it Is the duty of the 30 Communists to operate, to act, to destroy the fascism of those countries.

36. (A.Hi MURRAY) Yes, but seen internally, as an internal

tactic in the countries concerned, could you dilate on

that. What tactic do they then use, following from their

concept of fascism as an entrenchment of capitalism in

the parliamentary system? 5

BY MR .MAI SSLS •

According to the theory, My Lord.

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPEF s

Why don't you ...

BY MR. DE YOS j 10 I am sorry, My Lord.

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPEE s

We are dea,ling with theory - this witness, as

far as I know. Put it on that basis, because your Ques-

tions are not on that basiso 15

BY MR. DE VPS :

I am sorry, My Lord, I intended to convey

that.

EXAMINATION BY MR. DE VPS RESUMED °

Yes, Professor? --- On the theory of Communism, 20

since parliament has become the instrument of classes and

is dominated by classes in the State, the proletariat

is justified in using extra-parliamentary methods and

indeed any other methods to upset that particular parlia-

ment. A parliament is no longer the liberal parliament. 25

The solution of the antithesis between the two classes

cannot be found any longer by parlaimentary procedure,

and therefore the proletariat must use extra-parliamentary

methods, illegal, unconstitutional methods, to achieve its

end. s o

Professor Murray, is it so that you have read

a vast amount of Communist propaganda matter from time to

37. (A.H.MURRAY) time? Yes.

Nov/ the term fascist, does that occur fairly often in Communist propaganda or not? Repeatedly, all the time.

Nov/, Professor Murray, coming to the next 5 point, will you deal with the political theory of Marxism -Leninism and in particular its theory of the State? Will you deal with the view taken by Communists in terms of their doctrine, of the State? What do they consider the function of the State to be? Communist theory regards 10 the State as an instrument which is used by the dominating class for oppression. The State is an organisation using subsidiary bodies, like police and army and so forth, and it is controlled by one section or class for the domination and oppression of other classes. 15

Now whst is the role of the State according to Communist theory in the capitalist system? In the capitalist system, the ruling class has managed to get control of the State. It controls the bodies, again such as police, army and so forth, and it uses the machinery 20 of the state and even parliament to promote its own interests, to safeguard its interests, and for purposes - for purposes of oppression.

You said "Its interests". What does that "it" refer to? The dominating class, the ruling class. 25.

That is the capitalists? For the Commu-nist the capitalist class is the ruling class in the state.

And the bourgeois class, is that again synonymous? Bourgeois is most synonymous with capitalists*

Now, what do Communists conceive, what does 30 Communism conceive in theory should be done with the State, with the bourgeois state, the capitalist state?

38. (A.Hi MURRAY)

In the last instance the State must be destroyed, the

state must disappear. As a first stage of the Communist

theory I beg your pardon. As a first stage of the

Communist theory of change over or revolution, the -

certain property changes must be made in the state, after 5

which the Communist Party will create the dictatorship of

the proletariat. At that, time the sta'-o is still neces-

sary, because the state power must be used to eliminate the

- to destroy all elements of the bourgeois society. Vhen

that has been done under the regime of the dictatorship of 10

the proletariat, the state will gradually wither away, and

when the state has withered away, in theory, the final

Communist classless society will be achieved*

And that final classless Communist society,

to which you have just referred, is that also the Communism

or the final Communist state to which you referred right

in th£ beginning of 3rour evid<—^e? Is that the same?

That is the final end, so to say the eschatological element

in the Communist doctrine., the end to which the whole

theory drives. It is at that stage where people will 20

re-reive not according to their labour, as happens in the

earlier stages, but will receive according to their

needs•

Could you explain it a bit fur trier, «*" vi

the term eschatological really signifies? In any 25

theory eschatological refers to that part of the theory

which has to do with last things. It is chiefly, I should

imagine a theological term, but it means the theory of

the last things.

How does the term - what role does the term 30

"police state" play in the Communist theory of the state?

Communist theory teaches that at a certain stage

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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