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BR.IGEilANII YOUhqG UD{NVBR.SITY--IilAWAIItsetnavf,orol & Socflal Seiemqes Dflvisf,om

lLaie, Illlawaif, 96V62

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NARRATOR: nOBERT D. cRAIG

INTERVIEW NUMBER: 0H -te3

DATE OF INTERVIEW: 1 October I983

INTERVIEWER: Kenneth 1^l. Bal dri dge

SUBJECT: Ch.unch Co1 1 egBri:gha

f Hawa i. i. /QunE Uniyers j:ty---t{awai.i Campus

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INTRODUCTION

Robert D. Craig was born in Hamilton, Ohio in 1934, and after graduatingfrom high school in 1952 began employment as an office worker for theAtomic Energy Commission. He subsequently married, served two yearsin the arrny, returned to his AEC job and soon decided to enter college.Working full time while going to college, he graduated in 1962 from theUniversity of Cincinnati with a dual major in English and history. Hegained his master's degree from the same institution two years later andtwo years after that received his Ph. D. from University of Utah.

He accepted a teaching assignment at Texas A & M University in the fallof 1966 and the following year moved to Church College of Hawaii wherehe remained until 1981. After subsequent employment in Guam andWashington he moved to Alaska where he is now teaching history atAlaska Pacific University.

While at Church College of Hawaii/BYU--Hawaii Campus he wasregarded as an outstanding teacher and scholar by both students andcolleagues, although there were those who felt he was too controversialfor their liking. He was instrumental in establishing the Xi Deltachapter of the national history fraternity, Phi Alpha Theta, formulatingthe professional development program that is still in use and providingthe impetus for the creation of Pacific Studies, the widely-acclaimedjournal published by the Institute for Polynesian Studies.

I had the opportunity to interview Dr. Craig while I was attending anOral History Association conference in Seattle, Washington, in 1983. Hespoke very freely of his professional life on campus and described indetail some of the more noteworthy run-ins he had with administratorson campus. Reference to his private life was deliberately avoided in theinterview since he and his wife, Judy, both dear friends of my wife andme, have divorced and I felt the less said, the better.

Pornchai Junatrip transcribed the interview; Mele Vanisi and Alice Taydid the auditing; Alice Tay and Debbie Barker typed, proofread andcorrected the document and Debbie carried out the final assembly.Pornchai, Mele, Alice, and Debbie were all student workers for theBYU--H Oral History program. Grace Pratt, volunteer worker for ourprogram, and I did the editing.

Kenneth W. Baldridge, DirectorOral History ProgramBrigham Young University-

Hawaii

Laie, Hawaii5 January 1987

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SIDE A

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Childhood, work for Atomic Energy Commission, marriage,educational background.Teaching in Texas, first contact with CCH, first impressions of Hawaii.Faculty housing, circumstances surrounding David O. McKay lecture.Beard controversy: July 24th contest, student and Church regulation.Christmas nativity scene: community prize, use at BYU.Faculty organizations, EPC, promotional review committee, end ofsabbaticals, professional development program.Friction with President BrowerCreation of Phi Alpha Theta chapter.Sabbatical year in Connecticut, Brower visit, subsequent problems.END OF SIDE A

SIDE B

Cont'd trouble during Brower visit, looking for work.Dan Andersen new CCH president; "re-hiring" in history division,recount of several threatened firings.Beginnings of professional development program.Funding for professional development.Beginnings of Pacific Studies and the Institute for Polynesian StudiesLack of faculty contribution to the journal, tremendous amount oftime and work spent in creating the journal.Comment on past presidents.Work in Guam at Micronesian Research Center.END OF INTERVIEW

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Side A

INT It's October 1, 1983. This is Ken Baldridge; I'm in the Edgewater Innin Seattle, Washington, talking with Bob Craig about his experiencesat the Church College of Hawaii/Brigham Young University--HawaiiCampus.

Bob, first of all, let's establish your own personal background. Tellme, if you would, please, where and when you were born, verybriefly about your educational background and your experiencebefore you went into the field of teaching history. Would you dothat, please?

RC I was born in Hamilton, Ohio, in April, L934; spent most of mygrowing up years there. I graduated from the Monroe High School in1952 and started working with the Atomic Energy Commissionstraight out of high school in the office and spent ten years with theAtomic Energy Commission, eventually becoming office manager forthem.

I got married in 1955 and we lived in Cincinnati, Ohio, for a couple ofyears. And then I went into the army for two years. We had threechildren in the meantime and I returned back from the army, startedworking with the Atomic Energy Commission again and decided to go

to school, so I am a late educator. (laughter) Going to school, Istarted in business; so I switched, I think, five different disciplinesbefore I finally graduated with a bachelor's degree in English andhistory, a dual major.

I worked forty hours a week while I was going through college and

had a family. I look back now and I don't see how I did all of it, butI did; I managed. I decided in my senior year that--I was very muchinterested in college teaching, in being a professor. I knew, of course,that meant at least four more years of school. So I decided that I'djust go straight through and get it all done, get the Ph. D. So I got my

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master's from the University of Cincinnati two years after I got mybachelor's degree; it was a two-year program. From there I went tothe University of Utah where I got my Ph. D. under Doctor Aziz S.

Atiya who is in Middle Eastern Studies there; I got my Ph. D. in1966 in Medieval History.

I received my first teaching job in Texas at Texas A & M University.I had sent out resumes as all Ph. D. candidates do, you know, toseveral different places and I got several offers and I decided to takethe one in Texas. We were there in Texas until December, 1966,when I received a letter from CCH in Hawaii asking if I wanted a jobover there. I had sent out, I think, one of my resumes to them and Idecided, "Why not?" I always wanted to go to Hawaii, hadn't beenthere, and so we accepted a position at CCH, Church College of Hawaii,early 1967. And so that's how I got first contact with the ChurchCollege of Hawaii. We were living in Texas and we probably wouldhave stayed in Texas had I not gotten that, because I enjoyed the jobin Texas and teaching is very nice.

INT Had you had any personal contact with Jerry Loveland [thenchairman of the Department of History and Social Science, OH-371 oranybody?

RC No, no. The first time I saw Jerry he came flying down to Bryan,Texas, in a little two-prop airplane (laughter) landed at a very smallairfield and here Jerry gets off the plane. He spent a couple of daysin Bryan, Texas over the weekend--Sunday--and attended a class--Itaught in Genealogy there, I think--and returned back to Hawaii andsent me a formal contract, and I agreed to go to CCH.

INT You did not know at the time that he left Texas whether you had thejob or not?

RC It sounded awfully promising. I was pretty sure that I would get anoffer, yes. In fact, I think that they gave me a tentative offerthrough the mail first that they were very much interested, and Ithink Jerry's flying down there just sort of confirmed everything.

INT Well, what was your impression when you arrived in Hawaii? Was itwhat you expected or was there any degree of culture shock?

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RC No, I don't think I ever had any culture shock. I remember the planeflight there was exhausting and then after that the long trip out toLaie was especially exhausting and I wasn't too impressed, being sotired and the children being tired and Judy being tired andeverything, but a couple of days rested us up and everything wasjust fine.

INT Did you move into Moana Street?

RC We were on t55-5331 Naniloa Loop, Behling's apartment the firstyear we were there, a small apartment which we were verydisappointed in. We were told we would get faculty housing--a nicehome--but we got that sort of three-room apartment with our sixchildren. So the first year was very bad, living-wise, but we gotfairly used to it. I told Nephi [Georgi, academic dean, OH-66] by earlythe next year, calendar year, that if I did not get a nicer home, Iwasn't going to stay. (laughter) And so we got a nicer home thatnext year on Moana Street.

INT Did you move around very much after you arrived on Moana Street?

We were in that same house most of the time on Moana Street downby the Church, third one up from the corner on the left hand sidelooking towards the church t55-433 Moana Streetl. It was one of thenewer ones at the time and then from there, because of size offamily, we moved over to |55-l2ll Puuahi Street. We had the firstoption in Puuahi Street, the houses over there, and then from therewe moved back to 155-4741 Moana Street after my sabbatical.

INT So [you made] three moves after you got into faculty housing?

RC Right, that's right.

INT One thing that always impressed me was your being asked to givethe David O. McKay Lecture--actually, it was the year I arrived--1968, I suppose--in Februily, 1968. It really was your first yearthere, wasn't it?

No, I had been there one year. It was my second year there. I gaveit in February, L969. I had been there one year and I was asked atthe beginning of the school year to give it. They did not announce it

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a yeff in advance in those days. They only asked you at thebeginning of the semester, I think. I had been there one school yearand then they asked me at the beginning of the next school year if Icould give it in February.

INT But that still holds the record for the shortest tenure of time betweenthe arrival and being asked to give the address. To what do youattribute that? You must have made quite a splash that first year.

RC I don't know, really. I think I was very gung ho and very energeticand very enthusiastic and I just--you know--I brought this with meand I've always been that way. I'm always somebody on the go,doing things, and I must have impressed somebody because maybe, Idon't know, but maybe it was my discipline or my interest orsomething, or lbecause I was] such an oddity (laughter) that theythought I might give something that would be different andinteresting, I suppose. (laughter)

INT One thing I thought that might possibly provide some explanationwas that you had your doctorate at that time and there weren't thatmany, were there?

RC They had all started getting them. I think Nephi Georgi had justgotten his and Jerry had just gotten his and they were getting them,yes. And I was not the only one, no. There were quite a few, but itwas right at the beginning.

INT You seemed to be one of the first ones who had been hired as a Ph. DNot the first, I'm sure of that, because some of the original facultyhad them.

RC That's probably true. They were starting to hire Ph. D.'s rather thanmaster's degrees and the older ones had gone back and got theirdoctor's degrees.

INT But I think Jery had just given his [David O. McKay Lecture] the yearbefore [in 1967).

Yes, Jerry, I think, had given his the year before I came, not the yearI was there, because I did not hear Jerry's. That must be the yearbefore I came.

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INT There were two out of the division quite close together which isanother surprise. I was not at all surprised that you'd be asked togive one so early; it was the fact of only being there one year.

RC I think it was just new blood. They were just interested in what Ihad to say more than anything else.

INT Well, that's good. Now, of course, Jerry was our departmentchairman there for a good many years. Finally he just went full-timeinto the Pacific Islands thing and you took over as chairman. Now itwas before that--in fact, it seems like it was about the first year Iwas there, that there was all this brouhaha about the beard you had.You want to tell me a little bit about that? Did you have a beardwhen you were hired?

RC No, I started growing a beard when Jerry and LaMoyne [Garside] andI went to the Big Island to do some research on petroglyphs, and so

we all sort of let our beards grow a little bit. So I decided, "Well, I'lllet mine grow" because I never had one before. When we came back,I think, Jerry and LaMoyne shaved theirs off. I don't know whetherthey even had intended to keep it. They, just for convenience sake,had not shaved and so I decided, "Well, I'll keep mine" because Isort of liked it. And I started sporting it around, and I'm alwaysconscious of the way I dress. In Texas I got--the first year I wasthere I got the best-dressed professor award. (laughter) Thenbeards were becoming stylish and so I decided to leave it on. So Ihad it for almost a year, I think, not quite.

INT Where did the static come from? Did it come from Nephi's level orOwen's [Owen J. Cook, president of CCH 1964-t971. OH-105] level,or...?

RC When I grew it, of course, I had no idea anybody would object tosomebody growing a beard, you know, of having a beard. And thefirst I heard of any objection to somebody wearing a beard was afew weeks before school started that year. They had mentioned thatthe student body had voted to not allow students to have beards;they'd passed a student regulation. So I heard about it. I just--whenI said to Nephi, "Oh, look!" I said, "I'm sporting a beard here. I justheard the student body has passed a local student regulation thatthey do not want to have beards on campus. He said, "Yes." and I

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said--well, I wanted to know what the status of mine would bebecause I said, "I like it; my wife likes it--" everybody around likedit. (laughter) And he checked with President Cook and I was toldthat I would not be asked to shave off my beard. I said, "Fine. Iwant to leave it on." I kept it nice and trimmed, you know. It wasnot shaggy; I kept it trimmed very neatly and everything.

I suppose students who wanted to sport beards and could not startedlooking at me who had a beard and, of course, there was noregulation against faculty members having a beard and I wasspecifically told that I would not be asked--and I asked them severaltimes about it and word came back from the administration [that] Iwould not be asked. I got the impression eventually that I was goingto be asked, that they would like very much if I would do it. And so

I suppose the student body, some local students decided that theywanted to have the same rights as faculty members did, and theystarted putting pressure on President Cook.

So President Cook finally called me one Sunday evening and said thathe had met with students and he would like to have me shave off mybeard. And I said, "Well, you know, you told me that I can keep it."I said, "I really like it. I really, really would like to keep it simplybecause I like it." And he said, "Well, I'll tell you what I will do. Ifyou shave it off, I will work to get the regulation changed so that youcan wear a beard by the end of the year." I said, "Okay."

So Sunday night, on October the 22nd (laughter)fi shaved my beardoff and kept it in a little handkerchief for about two hours before Ithrew it away because I really liked it (laughter). I did not say a

thing to anybody. I made no complaints to anybody or never saidanything openly or publicly about anything in the whole deal.Nobody ever knew why I did it; why I shaved it off. Nobody knowsthe details, I think to this day. But that's the reason I shaved it off,because I was told that they would get the silly regulation changed.

INT So is this in 1968?

This is in October, L969. I started growing it in early 1969 and I hadit off in October 1969. Oh, I'll take it back. I'll take that back. I'vegot to retract something here. The beard I started growing on the

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Big Island I did shave off. I will tell you why I grew the beard forthe one that caused the controversy. They started to have a Julyl24th; Pioneer Duyl beard contest. You had to start with a cleanshaven face on the first of July t19701 for the contest. The beardcontest. The beard contest would be judged on the stake level, achurch function, on Jtily 24. My bishop asked me to do it. I shavedmy beard off, I think, before this time; I can't remember the details.

INT Was this [Owen] Robinson [then bishop of Laie Second Wardl?

RC No, this is Logan.

INT Easter?

RC Easter Logan, my bishop [of Laie Fourth Ward] asked me to grow abeard.

INT You were on Puuahi Street now, right?

My bishop asked me to grow a beard; I did not have it right then butI had had one before that time, I remember now. And so I said,"okay, I'11 grow another one." And so by July 24, we had the contestdown at the Hukilau grounds. I got the first prize for the nicest-looking beard and the first prize for the all-around beard and sothat's what I was sporting when school started in September and Ihad been asked by my bishop to grow it. (laughter) And so anyway,by october that one went, of course, under the condition that Cooksaid he would have a change. In the meantime, of course, Cook wasgetting wind that he was gohg to be replaced.

And so by the end of the year Cook was leaving, and in January Iasked Cook, I said, "I am still waiting for the change in the beardregulation." He gave me the reply that he was not going to doanything about it. I suppose he felt let down because [ofl his beingreleased and somebody else was going to be coming in or whatever itwas.

And, of course, in the meantime, student body at BYU had passed aregulation about it, too--the beard and the hair--and a group in SaltLake was pressing the General Authorities on the subject and so yousee it was a local regulation first on the campuses.

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INT It just did not appear to be the time to start growing a beard if youdidn't have one.

Oh, I don't know why it was such a big controversy, anyway, but itwas during a period of time, of course, a lot of sensitivity and.

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RC Yes, I suppose so. Somehow or other, people identify the beard as

rebellious.

INT Rebellion

INT Yes, I can remember now our experiences together there on PuuahiStreet. Especially when we got together and came up with theChristmas scene that you painted. Well, I think you painted most ofit, but I think Joann Lowe.

RC Joann Lowe helped out.

INT Did Marilyn Hunter tOH-252) help on that?

RC Marilyn cut out the plywood. They were using it at BYU.

INT They still are.

RC Are they still using that?

INT Still are.

I guess I'll go over and claim it. (laughter). They never did ask me ifthey could have it. I don't know how they got it.

INT I can't remember either. Seemed like we stored it for awhile but Idon't recall.

RC But anyway, it's.

INT Of course, we left Puuahi Street. Seemed like you got a prize oneyear for having the nicest Christmas decoration.

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INT We had some good times there--our block parties in which we set it[the nativity scene] up. It was good having both sides of the streetrepresented along there.

RC Yes, right.

INT Yes, that was quite good. Now, as you mentioned a little earlier,you've always seemed to have something going on; you were activein many different types of campus committees. Now they have theFaculty Advisory Committee, but I think initially it seemed like itwas something called the Educational Policies Committee. Was thatthe name of it; do you recall? Seems like EPC as I recall.

RC That was the later development, the EPC.

INT Okay, what was the first one that you recall, that particular type oforganization?

RC If I am not mistaken, they had a faculty senate at one time.

INT There was a faculty organization. Is this what you talked about--theEPC, the curriculum committee?

Well, that's fairly late. That was after Brower [Stephen A Brower.

[president 1971-1974, OH-107] got there.

INT Okay, I thought that antedated Brower.

RC No, no; oh, no.

INT Okay.

RC When I got there we had a Faculty Senate that discussed facultyproblems and faculty wants, you know, like other campuses. We hada faculty senate. That eventually went when Brower got there.

INT Okay, I know when he came it was called Faculty Association andthen, I think, Laurel Porter was the last president of the FacultyAssociation. I don't remember the faculty senate designation.

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RC Oh, maybe it was the Faculty Association

INT What I am talking about is more of a curriculum committee,curriculum planning.

RC I don't remember before the EPC, before Brower's time.

INT Okay, what was your involvement in faculty committees? I knowyou were on the promotional review committee, for example.

RC Well, this was the year after I got back from sabbatical. I was

INT When would that have been?

RC [It would have been] t974, 1975, 1976; from 1974-76; there's thattwo-year period.

INT So the fall of L97 4 you began.

And it was a new organization called the Promotional ReviewCommittee. I don't think they'd had one exactly like that before.They may have had, but I was appointed by Jay Fox who was tryingto initiate new guidelines for promoting faculty. Up to that time theyfelt that it was a little lax or at least they would like to tighten it upand to have more stringent requirements for promotion toprofessors, associates, and so forth. And so our committee, a two-year committee, elected--we were elected by the faculty members--Iwas chosen chairman by our committee; I was appointed chairman,elected chairman for two years; I had it two years. And at that timewe set up the criteria for promotion and to the various academicranks. At the same time, the sabbaticals had been superceded bywhat they wanted to be called the Professional DevelopmentProgram and they asked me to come up with a proposal whicheventually went to the faculty, the EPC. The EPC mulled around andrewrote it somewhat and came up with eventually the ProfessionalDevelopment Program.

INT I went on sabbatical in 1974-75 and I think that was about the lastunder that designation.

RC That's right.

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INT And I remember at that time they wanted to have some specific--that may have been the transitional view because they wanted toknow some professional development reasons that could be used tojustify that.

RC That was part of the Professional Development Program and thePromotional Review Committee was responsible for it the first twoyears. Now I don't think they are; they ate separate, aren't they?

INT You are right, yes.

And the promotional review committee that we had for two years--it's interesting. When we voted, you know, whether promotion ornot, every decision we made was unanimous. We had no dissentingvote for the two years I was chairman of that committee.

INT Were [the recommendations] always followed by the administration?

Yes, yes. The year previous to my going on sabbatical, you recall,Brower did--let's go back to the contention with Brower --thepromotional review committee voted for my promotion and for mysabbatical but Brower denied giving it to me. [Curtis] Van Alfen[academic dean, 1972-731 came in and Van Alfen came down andstepped in and said, "You cannot do this."

INT Said that to Brower?

Yes, it was only through Van Alfen's intervention that I was able togo on sabbatical that year and also was able to get my promotion forfull professorship.

INT Now, had your problems with Brower started before that time?

My problems with Brower started over the beard situation. See,

Cook passed on the word to Brower--whatever--about the beard.When Cook went out, Brower came in.

And so when Brower came in and called people into his office, I camein, you know, and he said, "Oh, you're the one.'l (laughter) I had noidea what he was talking about. He had me pegged, I think, as some

rebel or something, you know--for something--and that's what

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caused all the contention between me and Brower, was the fact that Iwas probably, in my outlook and everything, more liberal than whathe was; of course, I think most people were.

INT Yes.

But I've always believed myself to be very liberal and open-minded,you know, and I'm always very o'bjective in dealing with things and Idon't think that he liked that too well. But the contention came overthe beard--and, of course, the hair. I was wearing my hair at whatthey had called "the limit", you know? He said, "I've had my hair cutto the limit." He said, "Well, it grows such and such"--some amountof inches--"overnight," (laughter) and he had that figured out fairlypat and fairly accurate. And I just liked my hair the way I wasgrowing it.

I would, you know, be well-groomed and everything. I had no ideathat somebody out there was rebelling against the establishmentover this and that. I just liked it because I liked it--you know--stylish. We were always going around over my hair; after the beardit was the hair.

INT But you never had a beard while he was there?

RC Oh, no

INT Just the threat?

RC Yes, that I had had it and I really would like to have it back. And, ofcourse, by the time Brower got there, the year he got there--byrequest by student body and then faculty and then president, it wentup to the General Authorities and the General Authorities passed theruling about hair. Anyway, Brower got very touchy and very--Idon't know what--but anyway, we did not get along.

As I said, he denied my sabbatical and my promotion and if it hadnot been for Van Alfen--Curtis came down and Curtis and I had along talk and he wrote a long letter to Brower the next day. I stillhave a copy of that letter that stated that he saw no way that I wasin any type of rebellion against anything--my hair or my beard--and

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that my sabbatical and my promotion both should be approvedgot them because of Curt's intervention.

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INT Now, by this time you had resigned, I suppose, as departmentchairman, hadn't you? You took over from Jerry [Loveland].

RC I took over from Jerry. First, when Brower got there and we had theproblem over the beard and the hair, the pressure was being put onus for this and that. I decided, "Well, I just do not want to work withthe administration under these circumstances." I just told Browerthat I preferred not to be chairman of the History Department. Andso they appointed you.

INT Yes.

So I just did not feel like taking all the hassle--and then you're onlygetting two hundred dollars more a yeff for being chairman. You areunder his thumb all the time, and I decided it wasn't worth it. I hadmy things to do; I was interested in a lot of other things, so I just toldhim I'd rather not do it.

INT Now, before we get too far into the Brower period, we might flashback just a little bit more to when Owen was there, because the yearI arrived you were just in the process of creating the Phi AlphaTheta [chapter]. Will you tell me how that came about?

RC Well, the first year I got there--I am always interested, of course, inacademic things and professionalism and so forth. So when I gotthere, I found that there were no academic fraternities on campus ororganizations, I guess I should call them. So I asked theadministration if they would mind if I petitioned the nationalheadquarters if we could get a chapter. They said they would bevery glad to help out. And so I went and [did] all the footwork andthe paperwork and the requests and the petitions and so forth andsent it to the national headquarters for Phi Alpha Theta and wefinally got word that it was approved. We had to send all kinds ofinformation on the school and the school's credentials and how manystudents we had, our student body make up and a lot of paperworkhad to go into it. But we got it approved and that there would be tworepresentatives from the mainland flying over to install the newchapter. [Xi Delta, 18 September 1968]

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So the chapter of Phi Alpha Theta was installed and we initiated thestudents in it and we began the first academic association on campus.It was very active the first three or four years because we weren'tinvolved in length of hair or length of beards, lou know.

INT Yes, I guess that had actually begun the year before I arrived. Yourfirst year, I guess, you got it going.

RC Yes, right away.

INT Well, I still have all the material in a box in my office but nothinghas been done.

RC It's still inactive?

INT Yes, it went inactive. When did that kind of go inactive, do youremember?

RC It was during the Brower period. We lost some of our good students.

INT Yes.

And it's very difficult to--I should say it was very difficult to try tohave social-fraternal-academic organizations going on whileeverybody was involved in all this reorganization of the wholeuniversity. As you know, the whole--everything--I mean every typeof organization was threatened. The whole school organization had toprove what it was there for and the traditional organization was allquestioned and so we never knew whether we were coming or goingor whether we were going to be there one year or not. HistoryDepartment was going to be folded; we weren't going to have aHistory Department anymore; you recall that. The history major wasgoing to be eliminated. Brower said that he had told me when I wason my sabbatical that I might as well not come back because therewas going to be no history major for me to work in or we were goingto cut back on this and I had to be teaching something else.

INT Okay, tell me about that sabbatical year you had. That was quite a

trauma for everybody that went on sabbatical that year, but [whatwas] your experience?

RC

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RC What they were doing at this period of time, of course, they werecutting back on faculty members. That was one of the mandates Isuppose Brower was given--that you have to eliminate expense andso one way is to eliminate faculty members. And I suppose we werea little heavy, you know. And so the way they decided to do it wasto give individual sabbaticals and just suggest that they not comeback, or encourage them not to come back, to use this sabbatical totry to find a job on the mainland.

INT Were you told before you left that you would not have to come backto repay your two years, that you should try to find a job?

RC No, oh, no.

INT Okay, that did not take place until he came to that historic visit in thesnowstorm or whatever it was. When you left, you left with theassumption that--you were at Yale as I recall.

RC Yes, I was visiting professor at Yale that year.

INT So you were going to be at Yale for a year and then would return?

As you recall when we left Puuahi Street that day of the move, wetook everything with us that we owned.

INT That's right.

You recall we had all those boxes. I took every box. We tookeverything we owned with us on that flight to New York because Iknew from what had been said--and others the year before going onsabbatical had been asked not to come back, or had been encouragedto try to find work elsewhere, and so I had left, thinking, "Well, I amgoing to look," you know. But he did not say [we] would not comeback.

INT I remember your philosophy of always having a few offers on yourdesk; you had told me one time that it always came in handy whensalary negotiations came up, you had a few offers in hand. Yes, Iremember now that if things had worked out the way you had hopedthat you probably would not have come back. If something wouldhave materialized.

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RC Yes, something probably would have.

INT But then, of course

That was the energy-crunch--the worst one we had; the employmentcrunch was the worst we ever had in 1973.

INt Okay, so you went hoping that you might find something but thenfeeling that you still had a job to come back to?

RC Yes. But, you know, [I was] very apprehensive about coming backbecause Brower was still there and hoping that I could findsomething.

INT At this point you still felt you had CCH as an ace in the hole, didn'tyou? In case your hopes on the mainland did not materialize?

RC Yes, that still was available, yes, yes--until Brower came [toConnecticutl in February. I got a letter or telephone call from himthat he wanted to come to see me, that he was visiting all the facultymembers on sabbaticals. Of course I knew, essentially, what he wasdoing in visiting all the faculty members on sabbatical. And so he

came to Connecticut where I was living on a cold wintery day inFebruary. I went down to pick him up at the small airport he flewinto.

I was three hours late because I was taking a Greek exam. I wastaking a class in Greek and had an exam that morning and he called,said he's going to be there just, you know, right out of the blue. Andso Judy told him I was going to be late. So I got there and he cameover to our house and we sort of talked. He said that he was visitingall faculty members for the purpose of knowing what they wanted todo and what their intentions were on sabbatical.

He wanted to let me know that he did not believe there would be a

history program the next year and that if I came back that he couldnot guarantee that I would be teaching history. I could teach religionor genealogy or something. And that, in other words, it boiled downto that he would rather not have me come back because of all theproblems in the financial situation of the college and so forth. And so

I told him I was not coming back, then. I told him, "Okay; I won't be

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coming back." and so he left with the understanding that I was notcoming. I did not want to go back with Brower being the presidentof the college.

INT Was this a relatively amiable sort of meeting?

Yes, it was amiable. It was very, very cool, but nothing[controversial] was said about anything; he did not bring up any oldthings. In fact, we'd never had any words. Brower and I never hada word to each other. It was always behind each other's back, Iguess, that things were going wrong because I never said--I don'tthink I ever confided in anybody what was going on. In fact, Iwound up going to a psychiatrist while Brower was there,immediately thereafter, because what he was doing was--he justwent against everything I ever thought of in academic doings, youknow. And so I took him over to the airport and it started snowing.(Shall I go on with this part?)

INT Yes, go ahead.

RC It was a small airport in Connecticut he had to catch a small flightdown to Kennedy in order to catch the big plane to go back to Hawaiior wherever he was going. So I said, well, I would drive him down tothe small airport. So we got down there and a skiff of snow wasalready on the ground and they told him that they could not take off.And so I said, "Well, I'll drive you down to Kennedy"--which is anhour and a halfs drive away from Yale [which is] in New Haven,Connecticut. He said, "Okay." And so we started driving; the snowgot heavier. And of course, it was a period of time when gasolinelines were two blocks long to get gasoline.

I did not have enough gas to get down to Kennedy Airport and, ofcourse, we only had--he had to be down there in two hours to catchthe big plane. And so it started snowing. I pulled oft the turnpikeinto this one filling station. Of course, the line was at least thirty carslong and just sort of sitting, waiting; they were pumping gas, butslowly. And so I had the nerve to buck the line and go up to thefront of the line and I said [to Brower], "Where's your ticket?" Andhe gave me his airline tickets and I flashed them to one guy in theline, "Can I get in front of you? I have airline tickets; I've got to getto the airport."

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The guy let me in, but I could only get a dollar and a halfs worth ofgasoline. (chuckles from both).

END OF SIDE A

Side B

A dollar and a half's worth of gas which was about two gallons orprobably less and so we got down to about fifteen minutes toKennedy Airport and it's just about time for his plane to take off and

the snow had come down almost a foot on the ground and all thetraffic on the freeway came to a dead stop right in Brooklyn. In themiddle of Brooklyn snow coming down and his airplane took off andwe could not get off the turnpike.

Finally, slipping and sliding and getting around, I got off the exit, theclosest exit, and we pulled into a motel. Of course, we could notmove; traffic was not moving so he suggested the motel. It wasabout five o'clock in the afternoon by this time and so we got into themotel for the night and spent a vory cool dinner (more ruefullaughter) and of course, we had separate rooms. He made flightreservations for early the next morning to go out.

By this time, my car was almost out of gasoline. So I was up atthree-thirty to get into those lines--you remember--in the snow, andI sat from three-thirty until six waiting for them to open to getgasoline--in the cold--and I finally got the gasoline, got back to themotel and there was a letter from Brower saying, "Goodbye, thanksfor everything." (laughter) He had taken a taxi to the airport. Andso that was the last time I ever saw Brower.

INT That was the last time you ever saw him?

RC Except when he came to visit [BYU--Hawaii in 1980]. That wasFebruary. [In] March I looked for work. I sent out over 250applications to different schools and I got approximately 200

[saying], "No, thank you." because there was nothing available, youknow. So I was very actively looking for something but, you know,by March most of the things had already gone. If I started inDecember, you see, it might have been different but not March,especially in my field, there's very, very few and far between.

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And so then I had received word that Brower was on his way outand that Dan Andersen IOH-1241 was going to be the new president.And I had met Andersen, but I did not know him. He had been thereonly one visit while I was there. Well, he came while I was onsabbatical so I did not know him totally except I just knew him fromthe few encounters I had the year before and I liked him. And so itwas in Muy, I think, that we had to move out of our house inConnecticut because these other people whose house we had takenwere moving in and so we were without a house.

We moved out having no job; school was over, and I did not knowwhat I was going to do--and so. .with six children in tow, you know.And so--I [thought], "Well, I'll go back. I'll see if the opening is stillthere. So, I called Andersen and talked to him and said that I hadbeen unable to find a job and is there still a position there? And hesaid--this was Sundry, I think--he said, "Yes." He had noequivocation. He said, "Yes, we would like to have you back. Theonly problem is whether we have the money to fund it or not." Isaid, "Okay." He said, "I'll call you back Wednesday." I said, "Fine,call me back Wednesday. Let me know what you can offer me andwhat housing you have available," and so forth. And so Wednesdayhe called me back and said, "We'll bring you back for what you leftwith, plus the raise that Brower denied you while you were here andyour home in Puuahi Street is taken." But they had a house in MoanaStreet, which--I wanted the one on Puuahi Street very much [more]than the one on Moana Street. So we decided then okay, we'd goback. And so that's why we went back.

INT That must have been joyful news to get considering the situation youwere in.

RC Yes, right, it was. We were out of the house; we were living--temporarily babysitting somebody's house for two weeks while theywere on vacation in Connecticut, and I had no job and no prospect fora job. I looked elsewhere for other things, you know, but--I couldhave found a job doing something, you know, but nothingacademically. And so, that's the reason we returned to BYU [HawaiiCampusl, because of Andersen. I would not have gone back there.Because of Andersen, my few contacts with him and I talked withhim over the telephone, and the fact that he said, "Yes, we'd very

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much like to have you back." They wanted me back, and plus thefact that he gave me the raise that Brower denied me the year beforeI was back.

INT Do you remember a letter from Wayne Allison [academic dean, l97I-TZlt It seems like it sort of "dropped the other shoe" after Browermade the initial slice, I guess. Because Wayne was in kind of a

hatchet man position there. But I kind of, in the back of my mind, Iremember a letter; I don't know whether Wayne.

RC In all, I consider that I was fired three times. (laughter). I think thatwas one of Allison's letters that you sent to me but that was.

INT I think that was the letter. I guess he had just sent me a copybecause I was still kind of a history coordinator or something. Ourdepartment arrangement, of course, had been all changed by thistime and we were the Division of International Heritage Studies orsomething. It may have been for that particular reason I wassending the letter, because I remember seeing that letter and Iresponded to it also.

Oh yes, that's right. That time it was Allison who asked me to resign.The implication of the letter [was] that I would not be welcomed.

INT Something to that effect; something that there was no place for you?

RC Something, yes. And I think that's when you stepped in that timeand saved my neck (laughter). That's right; I remember that now.

INT I remember one of the things that I said. I think I may have L

mentioned it to you before, I'm not sure: that if we did not haveanybody like you on campus, we should get somebody. For somereason that particular phrase--because I remember you as beingkind of an academic prod trying to keep the whole institution in anacademic framework. And I appreciated that. You seemed to havesort of an academic framework about you that was woefully lackingespecially at that time, and that we badly needed. -

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RC Oh yes, I know.

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INT Okay, let's move on to another subject then. Your professionaldevelopment project that grew out of your tenure on the PromotionalReview Committee, was it a recommendation of this committee thatthis substitution for the sabbatical or what was the relationshipbetween your professional development concept and the traditionaland seven years' sabbatical?

RC Well, the sabbatical had gone out, you know, the concept wasgenerally--(pause)--when Brower's last year was there the idea ofsabbaticals was going out.

INT Yes.

And they wanted something to replace it that had to do with some

type of professional development. Oh, the idea was not mine. It'sjust the idea that they needed something to replace the sabbatical.

INT Do you remember it being the administration's idea that somethingdid need to replace the sabbatical or was it just that the sabbaticalwas through and there was not necessarily going to be anything toreplace it?

RC I think the original intent was that there would be no sabbaticals

INT Period.

Yes, because this was the idea of trying to save money; the money-crunch thing. Now some of these things I'm not quite sure--just theimpressions that I'd gotten.

INT So it may have originated from the faculty, then--the idea that theprofessional development leave might possibly be initiated?

RC I think when the administration started talking about doing awaywith sabbaticals the faculty then started. .loooking for alternatives.[The administration said]"You can't do this." So, I think it was sortof--"Let's come up with something that we can justify using themoney." You know, we can't give the money to somebody to go on a

trip around the world on sabbatical. We need to use the moneyeconomically and use the money for some purpose, you see, in a

tangible--you put your finger on it; that's what they wanted. And so

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I think I just simply volunteered to write that up for Nephi [Georgi],I think. And so I wrote it up and I think mine was much morestringent than what eventually came out of the EPC. They changed itaround a little bit. The concept, you know, the main concept wasthere.

INT Yes, so as long as somebody could identify a particular academicneed or something that would promote the welfare of the school.

RC At any time. It need not have been seven years or anything.

INT Right.

Now, there's one interesting thing that I was told while I was writingthis. I don't remember whether Allison was still there or whetherNephi was in the position [as academic dean]. We were told that theywere going to make extra money available for this new program andthat they were going to take--[for] one thing, they were trying toupgrade the quality of the faculty members; that's why they likedthe professional development idea.

And So, the first year--you know, the faculty was in uproar overgetting the sabbaticals [eliminated], you recall. So the first year in a

personal meeting between me and either Nephi or Wayne Allison--itmust have been Nephi--I'll just call it the adfrministration--theyshowed me the figures, how much they spent oh the sabbaticals forthe last year, fifty thousand dollars or possibly five hundredthousand. It could be five hundred thousand, but fifty lthousand]stands out. And he said, "Salt Lake had approved an equal sum to beput into professional development along with that same money andwe are actually going to have twice as much money the next year tofund this new program called Professional Development." I said,"Fine; that's what we want."

I think, if I am not mistaken, a year or so later it had been cut backto what the original sabbatical money had been, but I rememberthey'd said there's going to be far more money available for facultyto do professional development than what they had under the oldsabbatical program. I think at the time that this money becameavailable, that the uproar of the faculties on both campuses, Provo

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and BYU-Hawaii, had caused the financial or the Board of Directors todo something and so they decided this was what they were going todo. And then the next year, of course, it was back to the same

amount of what they had in the sabbatical program. I was gettingthe impression that we had a lot more money available. I don'tknow how it's operating today, how it's working.

INT Well, there ate still professional [development] projects that arefunded by Rick's [Eric Shumway, vice president for academics, 1980-86, OH-2701 office now, so it has no connection, of course, with anytype of sabbatical term at all.

One other thing, Bob, I think that you were involved in what was thejournal, Pacific Studies; how did that come about?

Oh, when we were writing this special development program, andwhen I was on the promotional review committee these two years.

INT Before you went on sabbatical?

No, this is after I came back. This is after the Brower period. Thefirst year I came back, Andersen put me on the promotional reviewcommittee and also I got involved with the professional developmentprogram so I was doing it all at the same time. And the problem ofpublication kept coming up; when we came to promotions, nobodyhad publications. And I said, "Well, now look, there's no reason wecan't originate a small press on campus." I had printing backgroundand had done publishing at one time and there is no reason we couldnot economically use some of this money and publish some nicepieces of work by faculty members.

We also suggested there is no reason why we can't issue somemonographs or maybe some type of a news thing or something rightfrom our campus. And Ron Safsten [public communications, BYU-Hawaiil backed me up. He got into it because he was in publications,you see. So we both sort of pressed for something to be done in theway of publications, something scholarly other than the Kula Manuand the Alumni News and so forth and so on. About the same time Ihad been given a professional development project of released timeto work on one project of mine, which is a little workbook, which Icame up with. And we got funds to publish it under BYU's name.

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INT Those ones on French?

The French workbook, yes. And so that was funded, and it came out.At the same time, then, the plans were made for funding an Institutefor Polynesian Studies. But even before the institute was organized,Jay Fox lacademic dean, 197 4-1980] and I had already decided thatthe BYU campus would print a journal--this had nothing to do withthe institute at first--BYU would publish a journal. And since wewere in the Pacific; that this would be our contribution. And wespent the whole semester trying to come up with some concept of a

name for it.

/ I had a long list of names and all kinds of things that we could dowith it and we finally came up with the title, Pacific Studies. Thiswas even before the Institute was in existence. So the work on thejournal came before the Institute was organized.

In fact, I think the journal had a little bit to do with the creation ofan institute around the journal--at least it started coming together--it sort of jelled together. But, the Pacific Studies originated beforethe Institute did, and we actually started working on it. I said itwould take me a year to get the first issue out. And in themeantime, the Institute was organized and the institute startedfunding it whereas before this time campus funds had been used forit.

So by the time the first issue came out, the Institute for PolynesianStudies had been organized and Pacific Studies had become part ofthat. And it's because of, I think, a lot--not everything--but thejournal had something to do with it. It was to be a campuspublication originally.

And we had decided what was to be in it, some of the concepts in itand so forth, and I had made contact with scholars, started writingand contacting scholars all over trying to get manuscripts and tryingto originate a concept of the journal: that this is going to besophisticated and professional and so forth, so that we could getnames in it.

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INT Now, you mentioned that initially being somewhat of a campus outletfor locally generated materials. Did you have any luck getting muchcampus participation? Because there never have been a whole lot [ofcampus participantsl.

No, there never was. We did not get--I don't think we got anymanuscripts at all from any faculty members for that first issue.

INT I had a book review in the first issue.

RC Yes. There were a lot of faculty members who said they'd like towrite something like this and this and this, you know. Well, I said,"Fine," and I gave them some guidelines: "Well, it's got to be up tocertain standards" and so forth, but I never did get any. And as youknow, there haven't been that many legitimate articles published.There have been some editor's forums and a few other things, but it'sgenerally been the [outside scholars].

INT Were there ever any things submitted or were they just kind ofscared off by the idea that it had to be something pretty thoroughlyacademic?

RC I think that was it. You know, they knew that it was going to be readcarefully and referred, and I think this kept many from submittingthem.

INT I know I'd always had in the back of my mind I would sometime, yotI still haven't. I've never had anything in it except that first bookreview.

But, I always encouraged anybody that wanted to, that I would helpthem, you know.

INT I remember that.

RC In fact, Ruby Johnson's article that appeared in one of thesubsequent issues, I helped her quite a bit in re-drafting it and so

forth to get it into what I felt was equal to the other articles thatwere in it. I did a lot of re-drafting. It's interesting that in receivingmanuscripts and articles from who you think were top notchscholars, were very sloppy (laughter) and I spent hours and hours

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and hours going over those. Sometimes we helped--suggesting thatthey redraft it this way or simply spending hours and days in thelibrary just simply cleaning up the bibliography that they wrote, youknow.

INT I remember that, all the hours you spent, too, on that encyclopediathat you were working on for so long.

rc Historical dictionary. [Craig and Frank P. King, eds., HistoricalDictionary of Oceania, Greenwood Press, 1981.1

INT Yes, it seemed like almost any hour of the day or night, I'd go downto the office and you'd be down there pounding away on thetypewriter or working with that word-processor or whatever it was.

RC It took a lot of work, lots of work. I don't think people realize thework that really went into getting that going, organizing, trying to getadequate equipment, trying to get a typesetter to begin with, tryingto get an office space. I was working in the back of the--my firstoffice was in the back of the auditorium. [It was] in a little cupboardback there. And they kicked me out of there and then I got officespace that Joe Spurrier tOH-401 vacated in the division there. Butnone of it was easy. I had to fight for every nickel and dime andevery little piece of anything we ever got in the beginning, and theywere not just given to me.

INT What was your perception of the relative merit--I have some ideawhere Brower might fit into your ranking--the relative merits of theadministration? You worked under Cook and Brower andAndersen

RC And Elliot Cameron [president, 1980-1986, OH-290].

INT That's right.

RC Then you want me to rank them; is that what you want me to do?

INT Just how do you evaluate them.

Oh, I believe I'm just going to tell you who I rank as my--as the one

that I felt I got along well with. I felt the top notch was withrc

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Andersen. Cameron was very helpful and very supportive, youknow. But I felt like Andersen would be the one I'd rank as the bestadministrator I worked under.

INT If Owen Cook had been president at the time you were coming backoff your sabbatical at Yale, would you have come back then?

RC You are writing history in the subjective (laughter) because thewhole situation would be entirely different. I have no idea; I haveno idea.

INT Now, I know that your relations with Owen sound as if they werefairly harmonious up until the very end.

RC Yes. I had the situation--Owen and I got along quite well togetherand I always liked him. Personally, I always liked him. I had noquarrel with Owen whatsoever. We liked both him and his wife verymuch.

INT You'd gone on your four-year summer-leave or something, hadn'tyou, when you had the opportunity to go to Guam?

RC Well, my four-year trip came in the summer of 1981 and theUniversity of Guam, the Micronesian Area Research Center, hadasked me twice to come to Guam and help them set up a similarprogram there as I was doing in Hawaii. And so it was in thesummer trip came up in 1981 I decided to accept the job in Guam,and gave my notice that I would not be coming back. And so fromHawaii then I went to summer on the mainland. Then in September Iflew to Guam to start working at the Micronesian Research Centerthere as the editor, to set up a journal there and to be head of theirpublications of their research center there.

INT So you were over there a year and a half and then came here toSeattle? And still hoping to get back into the academic ranks andthat possibility of getting back to Hawaii [East-West Center] would bequite exciting, if that should ever materialize.

Well, the position I'd very much like to have, really, of all the onesI've applied for in the last several months, that's the one that appealsto me quite a bit.

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INT Well Bob, I appreciate this very much. I always appreciated yourpersonal contribution to me as a colleague and, of course, as aneighbor and friend over the years and you left quite an imprint onBYU with your academic contributions both in the classrooms andcommittee rooms as well. (chuckles) We still have a multitude ofcommittees.

RC Well, I always tried; I did my best. I gave it my all.

INT Well, we appreciate it.

END OFINTERVIEW

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