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Proceedings

Armstrong & Okey, Inc., Columbus, Ohio (614) 224-9481

BEFORE THE OHIO SECRETARY OF STATE

- - -

In the Matter of the Protests Against the Candidacy

of Charles R. Earl and Sherry L. Clark as Libertarian

Party Candidates for Governor and Lieutenant Governor

and

In the Matter of the Protest Against the Candidacy of

Steven R. Linnabary as Libertarian Party Candidate

for Attorney General

- - -

PROCEEDINGS

before Mr. Bradley A. Smith, Hearing Officer, at 180

East Broad Street, 11th Floor, Room 11B, Columbus,

Ohio, called at 9:09 a.m. on Tuesday, March 4, 2014.

- - -

ARMSTRONG & OKEY, INC.

222 East Town Street, 2nd Floor

Columbus, Ohio 43215-5201

(614) 224-9481 - (800) 223-9481

Fax - (614) 224-5724

- - -

LPO, et al. v. Husted Case No. 2:13cv00953

Memo Contra TRO EXH. A, p|1

Case: 2:13-cv-00953-MHW-TPK Doc #: 63-1 Filed: 03/11/14 Page: 1 of 270 PAGEID #: 1232

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1 APPEARANCES:

2 Zeiger, Tigges & Little, LLP

By Mr. John W. Zeiger, Esq.

3 Mr. Steven W. Tigges, Esq.

Mr. Daniel P. Mead, Esq.

4 3500 Huntington Center

Columbus, Ohio 43215

5

On behalf of Protestors Felsoci and King.

6

Mularski, Bonham, Dittmer & Phillips, LLC

7 By Mr. David M. Kennedy, Esq.

107 West Johnstown Road

8 Gahanna, Ohio 43230

9 David P. Rieser, Esq.

844 South Front Street

10 Columbus, Ohio 43206

11 On behalf of Protestor Akers.

12 Mark R. Brown, Esq.

303 East Broad Street


14 Mark G. Kafantaris, Esq.

625 City Park Avenue


16 On behalf of Candidates Earl, Clark, and

Linnabary.

17

McTigue & McGinnis, LLC

18 By Mr. Donald J. McTigue, Esq.

Mr. J. Corey Colombo, Esq.

19 545 East Town Street

Columbus, Ohio 43215

20

On behalf of Ohioans for Liberty

21 and Mark A. McGinnis, Esq.

22 Markovits, Stock & DeMarco

By Mr. Paul M. DeMarco, Esq.

23 119 East Court Street, Suite 530

Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

24

On behalf of The Strategy Network.

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1 ALSO PRESENT:

2 Jack Christopher, Deputy Assistant Secretary

of State and Chief Legal Counsel

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1 INDEX TO WITNESSES

2 - - -

3 PROTESTOR WITNESSES (EARL/CLARK HEARING) PAGE

4 Robert Bridges

Direct Examination by Mr. Zeiger 34

5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brown 57

Redirect Examination by Mr. Zeiger 59

6

Kevin J. Knedler

7 Direct Examination by Mr. Tigges 75

Cross-Examination by Mr. Brown 81

8

Oscar C. Hatchett, Jr.

9 Direct Examination by Mr. Zeiger 84


10

Mark A. McGinnis



12 Redirect Examination by Mr. Tigges 145

Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Tigges 201

13

Emily Baker



15

Andrew Goldsmith



17

Samuel Runta



19

Ian James


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1 INDEX TO WITNESSES (Continued)

2 - - -

3 PROTESTOR WITNESSES (LINNABARY HEARING) PAGE

4 Carl Michael Akers

Direct Examination by Mr. Kennedy 248

5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brown 254

Redirect Examination by Mr. Kennedy 256

6

Kevin J. Knedler

7 Direct Examination by Mr. Brown 258

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1 INDEX TO EXHIBITS

2 - - -

3 PROTESTORS EXHIBITS IDF'D ADM'D

4 P-1 Protest of Gregory Felsoci -- 211

5 P-2 Voter Information Report of 14 211

Gregory Felsoci

6

P-3 Voter History of Gregory Felsoci -- 211

7

P-4 Protest of Tyler King -- 211

8

P-6 Bylaws of the Libertarian Party 36 211

9 of Ohio

10 P-8 Internet Posting of Oscar C. -- 211

Hatchett, Jr.

11

P-9 Libertarian Party Disclosure of -- 211

12 Payment to Hatchett of $700

13 P-10 Disclosure of Payments to Oscar -- 211

C. Hatchett, Jr.

14

P-11 Hatchett Checks and Invoices 90 211

15

P-12 Easy Access Petitions Website -- 211

16

P-13 Hatchett Criminal and Sex -- 211

17 Offender Registry Records

18 P-14 Hatchett Part-Petitions 86 211

19 P-15 Exhibit to Hatchett Subpoena 85 211

20 P-18 Disclosures of Payments to -- 211

Sara Hart

21

P-19 Affidavit of Ian James -- 211

22

P-20 Sworn Statement of Sara Hart -- 211

23

P-21 Letter from Process Server 22 211

24 Regarding Sara Hart

25 P-22 Hart Part-Petitions 18 211




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1 INDEX TO EXHIBITS (Continued)

2 - - -


4 P-26 Form 14 of Ian James, dated 215 211

January 29, 2014

5

P-27 Voting History of Ian James -- 211

6

P-30 Form 14 of Strategy Network, 226 211

7 dated January 29, 2014

8 P-31 Form 14 of Strategy Network, 226 211

dated January 29, 2014

9

P-33 Wire Transfer Report 123 211

10

P-34 Copy of Check Payable to 205 211

11 The Strategy Network

12 P-36 Copy of Check Payable to 133 211

The Strategy Network

13

P-37 Form 14 of Ohioans for Liberty 131 211


15 P-38 Form 14 of Ohioans for Liberty -- 211


16

P-39 Campaign Contribution Disclosure 125 211

17 of Ohio Democratic Party

18 P-40 Voting History of Mark A. McGinnis -- 211

19 P-41 Website Information of McTigue & -- 211

McGinnis, LLC.

20

P-42 Analysis of Political Expenditures -- 211

21 Paid to McTigue & McGinnis, LLC.

22 P-43 Ohioans for Liberty Articles of 114 211

Incorporation

23

P-44 Ohioans for Liberty Trade Name 117 211

24 Registration

25 P-45 Ohioans for Liberty IRS Filings 121 211




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2 - - -


4 P-47 Form 14 of Samuel Runta, -- 211


5

P-48 Linked-In Profile of Samuel 189 211

6 Runta

7 P-50 Runta Part-Petitions 196 211

8 P-53 Form 14 of Andrew Goldsmith, -- 211


9

P-55 Goldsmith Part-Petitions 182 211

10

P-58 Form 14 of Emily Baker, -- 211


12 P-60 Baker Part-Petitions 159 211

13 P-61 Pepper Petition Signed by Baker 169 211

14 P-67 Pepper Petition Signed by Voorhees 165 211

15 P-68 Form 14 of Eileen Voorhees, -- 211


16

P-69 Voter History of Eileen Voorhees -- 211

17

P-70 Petition Signed by Eileen Voorhees 27 211

18

P-71 Voorhees Part-Petitions 26 211

19

P-72 Voorhees Linked-In Profile -- 211

20

P-73 Form 14 of Sarah McHenry, -- 211


22 P-78 Form 14 of James Winnett, -- 211


23

P-79 E-mail string between O. Hatchett, 50 211

24 C. Earl, and B. Bridges

25




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2 - - -


4 P-80 E-mail string between M. McGinnis, 138 211

I. James, S. Dawkins

5

P-81 The Strategy Network, LLC's 219 211

6 Privilege Log

7 P-82 E-mail string between B. Coogan, 63 211

C. Earl, D. Olthaus, K. Knedler,

8 B. Bridges, N. Eberly, A. Keith

9 P-83 E-mail string between C. Redfern, 220 211

E. Greathouse

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1 Tuesday Morning Session,

2 March 4, 2014.

3 - - -

4 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We're going to

5 see if we can't get started this morning. We have a

6 busy day here, much to be done, and it would be

7 really wonderful if we could finish both of these

8 protests today. So I will call this hearing to

9 order.

10 This is the protest, first, of the

11 declaration of candidacy and petitions filed on

12 behalf of joint candidates Charles R. Earl and Sherry

13 L. Clark as Libertarian Party candidates for Governor

14 and Lieutenant Governor. We have two protests which

15 we will handle simultaneously. These are the protest

16 of Tyler King and the protest of Gregory Felsoci.

17 First, we have attorneys here for the

18 protestors. Mr. Zeiger.

19 MR. ZEIGER: Good morning, Professor

20 Smith. John Zeiger on behalf of Greg Felsoci and my

21 partner Steve Tigges --

22 MR. TIGGES: Good morning.

23 MR. ZEIGER: -- and our colleague Dan

24 Mead.

25 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So it's




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1 "Fell-so-si." Okay.

2 MR. ZEIGER: "Fell-so-si."

3 HEARING OFFICER: Very good. Thank you.

4 And for the candidates.

5 MR. BROWN: Mark Brown and my co-counsel

6 Mark Kafantaris.

7 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Thank you

8 very much.

9 I will just refer to them, by the way, as

10 "the candidates." I think the statutory term is

11 persons whose candidacies are protested or some such

12 thing, but we'll just call them "the candidates"

13 today.

14 Now, before we start -- okay. Before we

15 start here or go further, I should say, you've

16 received copies of the procedures for this hearing.

17 As you know this is an informal hearing. We're not

18 strictly bound by Rules of Evidence or many of the

19 other rules that would obtain in a courtroom and I

20 have the authority to limit what seems to be

21 cumulative testimony so that we can move things along

22 and get things done on a prompt basis.

23 Objections such as hearsay and other

24 things are not necessarily applicable here. I will

25 take objections as people want to raise them, but I




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1 do want folks to understand that, both counsel and

2 those in the audience.

3 As well, we have a court reporter here,

4 so I do ask people to try to speak clearly and use

5 the microphones, which I've had to be reminded of

6 already, when we can, so we have a good record of

7 this hearing today.

8 I want to, first, before we go any

9 further, address just, Mr. Brown filed a short motion

10 in limine this morning after seeing some of the

11 proposed exhibits. There were two items that

12 Mr. Brown moved to exclude.

13 The first was a mention of a criminal

14 conviction of one of the witnesses in 2000. I'm

15 going to allow that in. I'm obviously aware of it.

16 We're not talking about a jury situation here, so

17 there's no point in pretending at this point that I'm

18 not aware of it. It's been brought up. I take

19 Mr. Brown's point that the Federal Rules of Evidence

20 normally would exclude evidence on veracity that's

21 more than -- of a conviction that's more than 10

22 years old, and I will, I think, take that into

23 account and, generally speaking, attempt to give this

24 information, should it be brought up, the weight that

25 it deserves.




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1 The second issue went to proposed

2 stipulations of fact that were exchanged between

3 counsel. I am going to agree with the motion in

4 limine, grant the motion in limine, and exclude that.

5 I don't think that we really want proposals and

6 negotiations back and forth between attorneys to

7 become part of the final record.

8 People oftentimes in those negotiations

9 might offer things in expectation of getting

10 something in return, and if the final agreement

11 doesn't come through as to how those things are going

12 to be used or limited, I just, they're things I would

13 rather not know and I don't know that they

14 necessarily reflect the truth or the reality as much

15 as can be reflected in the actual testimony of the

16 witness and the documentary evidence presented. So,

17 on that, I am going to agree that what is exhibit, I

18 think it was proposed Exhibit 23, I think it was,

19 yeah, proposed Exhibit 23 will be excluded from the

20 record.

21 All right. With that, as you're aware,

22 under the procedures for the protest hearing, we have

23 said that counsel for both the protestors and the

24 candidates may make an opening statement if they

25 would like to do so. I would ask you to try to keep




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1 those relatively brief and remember again that, you

2 know, this isn't a jury trial, I'm here, and if you

3 can -- if you have an opening statement that you

4 think will help frame the evidence and the law in a

5 way that will be helpful to me as we move through the

6 hearing, I invite you to make opening statements now.

7 We'll start with the protestors. Would

8 you like to make an opening statement, Mr. Zeiger?

9 MR. ZEIGER: Thank you, Professor Smith.

10 As you are already aware, we represent

11 Protestor Greg Felsoci -- -soci, excuse me, in the

12 protest that he has filed today. As Exhibit P-2

13 demonstrates, he is a registered member of the

14 Libertarian Party of Ohio and, as such, has standing

15 to bring this proceeding.

16 There was a dispute raised by the

17 candidates' counsel about Tyler King's standing to

18 bring this proceeding. While we believe that

19 Mr. King has full standing, we see no necessity of

20 pursuing those issues and complicating something that

21 we think is very straightforward, so Mr. King is

22 withdrawing his protest at this time. We will

23 proceed only on the protest of Mr. Felsoci.

24 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you.

25 MR. ZEIGER: At this point, Professor




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1 Smith, we would ask for a separation of the witnesses

2 who have been subpoenaed to participate in this

3 proceeding.

4 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Brown, do you have

5 any problem with that?

6 MR. BROWN: I do because some of the

7 witnesses who are subpoenaed are clients, so they

8 have a right to be here and I object to their being

9 excluded from the proceedings.

10 HEARING OFFICER: Which witnesses would

11 those be?

12 MR. BROWN: I believe we've got Kevin

13 Knedler and Bob Bridges are both LPO officers and we

14 have the candidates themselves. They're all clients.

15 MR. ZEIGER: Professor Smith, we would

16 agree that the candidates are in fact entitled to be

17 here for the proceeding. We would also agree that

18 the Libertarian Party of Ohio, if it wishes to

19 designate one representative, that representative

20 should be allowed to participate in the hearing as

21 well. I'd like to amend my motion to exclude the

22 witnesses to include not only those subpoenaed but

23 all other witnesses as well, excluding the three that

24 I've just indicated should be allowed to stay.

25 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Brown.




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1 MR. BROWN: I still object to the

2 exclusion of any of the LPO officers. I've got two

3 LPO officers I think have a right to be here.

4 HEARING OFFICER: All right. I think the

5 LPO officers and the candidates are entitled to be

6 here. I would ask then the nonparty witnesses to be

7 separated.

8 Mr. Christopher, do we have a place where

9 we can make these witnesses --

10 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Yes.

11 HEARING OFFICER: -- comfortable during

12 the day?


14 HEARING OFFICER: So what we'll ask is

15 those that have been notified that they may be asked

16 to testify as witnesses, either under subpoena or

17 otherwise, we're going to ask you to leave the room

18 and hopefully we'll be able to make you comfortable

19 and I appreciate your being here today and we'll see

20 you when it's time to testify. Thank you.

21 Okay. The witnesses have been separated.

22 Mr. Zeiger, go ahead with your opening

23 statement then.


25 As you articulated your position twice




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1 when we had our conferences on discovery issues

2 yesterday, there are two issues in this matter.

3 The first is the violation by the various

4 parties supporting the Libertarian candidates for

5 Governor and Lieutenant Governor of Revised Code

6 Section 3501.38 in terms of the petitions that were

7 filed to support the candidates being placed on the

8 ballot.

9 As you know, 3501.38 says that the

10 circulator shall, a mandatory term, identify the name

11 and address, quote, of each person employing the

12 circulator to circulate the petition. And indeed,

13 under 3513.05, if there's failure to fully comply,

14 the statutory word "fully comply," then that petition

15 shall be deemed invalid and be rejected. Those are

16 mandatory provisions of the Ohio Revised Code

17 designed to protect the electorate against voter

18 fraud and manipulation.

19 Here, a majority, over 900 of the

20 petition signatures submitted on behalf of the

21 candidates of the Libertarian Party for Governor and

22 Lieutenant Governor failed to comply with those

23 statutes. The facts, I don't believe are going to be

24 in serious dispute.

25 The Libertarian Party hired Oscar




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1 Hatchett, Jr. and paid Oscar Hatchett, Jr. to go out

2 and collect approximately 660 of the nearly 1,500

3 petitions that were filed on behalf of those

4 candidates.

5 But you will see, in Exhibit P-14, the

6 part-petitions Mr. Hatchett circulated with

7 approximately 660 signatures, not one of them

8 identifies the statutorily required name and address

9 of the person employing the circulator. Indeed, from

10 the face of the documents, it would appear that

11 Mr. Hatchett did this out of his own volition rather

12 than being a paid partisan circulator. As such,

13 Mr. Hatchett's petitions that he circulated violate

14 3501.38 and are invalid under 3531 -- excuse me,

15 3513.05.

16 But there's more. Mr. Hatchett, we

17 believe the evidence will show, retained a lady by

18 the name of Sara Hart who is also a paid professional

19 circulator as the evidence will show. And Sara Hart

20 also circulated petitions on behalf of the

21 Libertarian candidates. She collected an additional

22 241 signatures out of their nearly 1,500 signatures.

23 But, again, if you look at Exhibit 22,

24 the petitions that she circulated, again not one of

25 them complies with 3501.38, and thus they are invalid




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1 because she did not disclose the name or address of

2 the person paying for those petitions.

3 So we believe the evidence, Professor

4 Smith, will show that 901 of the signatures contained

5 on the part-petitions supporting the candidacy of the

6 Libertarian candidate for Governor and Lieutenant

7 Governor were invalid as a matter of law on the face

8 of the statute for absolute noncompliance.

9 We do understand that there are arguments

10 between the parties as to whether these people were

11 independent contractors or merely employees. The

12 law, as set forth in our brief, is clear that it

13 makes no difference. Indeed, the Secretary of State

14 of this state, Mr. Husted, has already held in

15 pleadings filed in a federal proceeding that it

16 doesn't make any difference as long as there is a

17 payment. And -- let me restate that. It was not a

18 federal proceeding, it was a state proceeding, and in

19 fact the Ohio Supreme Court in that proceeding said

20 that his decision on that was entitled to deference

21 and is controlling.

22 So the controlling law that is before you

23 today is that whether they, Ms. Hatchett -- or,

24 Mr. Hatchett or Ms. Hart are employees or independent

25 contractors is irrelevant. The fact they were paid




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1 and failed to disclose it violates the two statutes.

2 Their part-petitions are invalid. When you

3 invalidate them, the candidates must be taken off the

4 ballot.

5 There is a second issue that we will

6 present evidence on today and that is that Ohio law

7 is very clear, could not be more clear, that the

8 circulator of a petition must be a member of the same

9 political party as the candidates on whose behalf

10 they are soliciting. A provision designed to stop

11 Democrats from soliciting petitions to impact

12 Republican candidates or Republicans to solicit

13 petitions for third-party candidates that would

14 impact Democratic candidates.

15 3513.05 is very clear. Each separate

16 petition paper shall, again the mandatory word

17 "shall," be circulated by a, quote, member of the

18 same political party as, in this case, the joint

19 candidates for Governor and Lieutenant Governor.

20 There has been some suggestion that that

21 provision is an irrebuttable presumption that means

22 that if you are not registered for any party, no

23 matter what your commitment to another party might

24 be, if you're not registered as a voter in a

25 Republican or Democratic or other primary, then you




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1 can be a member of all parties for purposes of this

2 statute.

3 Well, the law is clear. This is a

4 presumption. And how do we know that this is a

5 presumption? We heard yesterday that there's no laws

6 that determines this to be a presumption.

7 Well, actually that's wrong. Because if you will

8 look at page 8 and 9 of our brief, you will see that

9 no less a court than the Sixth Circuit Court of

10 Appeals for the United States has said that words

11 almost identical to the statutory language that is

12 involved here were held to be a rebuttable

13 presumption.

14 And just in case there's any question

15 about federal law being different than state law, you

16 will see that the same language, the language that

17 shall be considered is a rebuttable presumption has

18 also been held in the Wolf case by the Eighth

19 District Court of Appeals.

20 And, as such, the legal issue of whether

21 or not the presumption is rebuttable, we believe, is

22 subject to controlling law. The Supreme Court has

23 said where the presumption is not indicated to be

24 irrebuttable, it is in fact rebuttable.

25 What difference does that make in this




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1 case? Well, to start with, if you have to be a

2 member of the same party as the Libertarian

3 candidates under this statute as we believe, then all

4 of Sara Hart's petitions that she circulated, again

5 totaling 241 signatures, have to be excluded because

6 Sara Hart is not a member of the Libertarian Party.

7 Indeed, the evidence will show that just

8 three months prior to the time she signed a statement

9 under penalty of election falsification that she was

10 a member of the Libertarian Party, she filed a

11 statement with the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections

12 indicating at I believe Exhibit P-20, indicating that

13 she was in fact a member of the Democratic Party,

14 showing a Democratic Party affiliation there in the

15 middle of the page on Exhibit P-20.

16 And you'll note, under the little box at

17 the bottom, that Sara Hart not only said she was a

18 member of the Democratic Party, she said so under

19 penalty of perjury. So three months before she

20 solicits the petitions she is declaring, under

21 penalty of perjury, she's a Democrat, and then she

22 signs the petition saying she is not a Democratic,

23 that she is a member of the Libertarian Party. It is

24 clear, we believe, that the sworn statement, under

25 penalty of perjury, invalidates any suggestion she is




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1 a member of the Libertarian Party.

2 We would have liked to have had Sara Hart

3 here, but as another exhibit shows, Ms. Hart has left

4 the state, was not subject to the subpoena power, and

5 thus we will not be able to produce her for testimony

6 today. But we have included a number of exhibits

7 that shows she is a paid professional circulator. We

8 have included Exhibit 20 which shows that she swore,

9 under penalty of perjury, that she is a Democrat, and

10 we believe that that rebuts the presumption contained

11 in the statute and, therefore, it will take

12 affirmative evidence from Sara Hart and/or the

13 Libertarian candidates to overcome the evidence of

14 Exhibit No. P-20. So, again, Sara Hart's petition

15 should be excluded for a second reason.

16 But there is more, as you know. The

17 Democratic Party became concerned in late January

18 that the Republican candidate for Governor and

19 Lieutenant Governor would not have an opponent on the

20 right side to detract ballots from that Republican

21 Gubernatorial and Lieutenant Gubernatorial candidate.

22 So the Ohio Democratic Party, through its

23 leading law firm in central Ohio, the McTigue and

24 McGinnis firm, and through its leading political

25 operatives, Strategy Network and Mr. Ian James,




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1 jumped into action when they realized that there

2 wouldn't be enough valid signatures to make sure the

3 Libertarians were on the ballot.

4 So in late January of 2013 [verbatim],

5 there was a flurry, I believe on January 29th, the

6 documents are all in our exhibit books, of filings,

7 because these people know the law and they know how

8 to work with the law, they complied with at least

9 part of the law and that is they filed these Form 14s

10 showing that Ohioans for Liberty was retaining

11 Strategy Network, and Strategy Network was then

12 retaining a group of its employees to go out and

13 circulate petitions for the Libertarian candidates.

14 Seems strange that the leading Democratic

15 organizations and law firms would be in the middle of

16 soliciting petitions for other candidates of a

17 different party affiliation.

18 We have gone back and dug out the other

19 filings with the Secretary of State and you will see

20 at the top of our chart that Ohioans for Liberty, at

21 least in publicly-filed documents, has only received

22 two contributions in its history that we could find.

23 The most significant was the Ohio

24 Democratic Party contributed $828,000 to Ohioans for

25 Liberty. And there was a much smaller, I believe in




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1 the 10- or 15,000-dollar range contribution from

2 AFSCME. But, otherwise, the money that is funding

3 this effort to go out and get these additional

4 signatures came from Democratic sources that

5 admittedly organized and managed the effort of

6 obtaining additional signatures to make sure that the

7 Libertarian candidates were on the ballot. The

8 evidence will show that.

9 And in particular there were four of the

10 paid solicitors by the Democratic Party and Strategy

11 Network who in fact did provide the signed petitions

12 that were filed as part of the Libertarian

13 candidates' filing to qualify for the ballot.

14 Along the bottom you will see four names

15 in addition to Ian James who is the, I believe,

16 political mastermind behind this effort. You will

17 see the name Eileen Voorhees, Samuel Runta, Emily

18 Baker, and Andrew Goldsmith.

19 We don't know if Eileen Voorhees will be

20 here or not. We believe she was validly served from

21 the information we have received from the Secretary

22 of State's office. An adult accepted the subpoena at

23 her place of residence, but we have been told by

24 counsel for other witnesses that they do not

25 represent her and have not heard from her. So we




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1 don't know if she'll be here or not.

2 But that doesn't make any difference. We

3 can again show that she is a member and affiliated

4 with the Democratic Party rather than the Libertarian

5 Party even though she was required to be a

6 Libertarian to circulate petitions for these

7 candidates.

8 How do we show that? Well, what we know

9 is that she collected signatures over a four-day

10 period on the petitions that are Plaintiff's -- or,

11 excuse me, Protestors Exhibit 71. That four-day

12 period was January 30th through February 14th of this

13 year. Again, the rush job at the end by the

14 Democrats to make sure there were enough valid

15 signatures.

16 On each of those she signed a circulator

17 statement, under penalty of election falsification,

18 that she was a member of the Libertarian Party. But

19 what you will see is that the truth is different. At

20 Exhibit 67, in our witness exhibit book, you will

21 find a copy of the Declaration of Candidacy and

22 Petition of David Pepper. As you know, Mr. Pepper is

23 a Democratic candidate for Attorney General in the

24 upcoming elections.

25 And you will note in the second signature




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1 down on Mr. Pepper's petition, we have the signature

2 of Eileen Voorhees. And you can tell it is her

3 signature because of the address that is set there.

4 The address is much more clearly written, but you'll

5 see from other documents that that is Eileen

6 Voorhees' address. And indeed what you will see is

7 that above that she has been warned, as all

8 signatories are, that you must be a member of the

9 Democratic Party to sign this petition.

10 So on January 20th, 2014, she certifies

11 that she is a member of the Democratic Party and

12 then, roughly two weeks later, she again is

13 certifying that she is a member of the Libertarian

14 Party. We believe that this evidence is indicative

15 of the fact that she was in fact a member of the

16 Democratic Party.

17 Just to make sure that the point is

18 clear, take a look at Exhibit No. 70. This is a

19 Declaration of Candidacy for Jim Prues. Mr. Prues is

20 a congressional candidate in Cincinnati for the

21 Democratic Party. And if you turn to the second page

22 of that exhibit, the signature on line 19 again is

23 Eileen Voorhees saying that she is a member of the

24 Democratic Party. Again, that signature is placed

25 there on January 20th of 2014, again within 14 days




Proceedings


28

1 of the time she certifies petitions as being a

2 Libertarian candidate.

3 We could go through the exhibits for the

4 remaining three, Samuel Runta, Emily Baker, and

5 Andrew Goldsmith, but we'll do that in examination.

6 And I believe when you have heard the testimony

7 regarding them and seen the same kinds of documents

8 regarding them, you will concur that again these were

9 not members of the Libertarian Party, that the

10 rebuttable presumption that they could be members of

11 the Libertarian Party has been rebutted by the

12 evidence in this procedure -- proceeding, and that in

13 fact their petitions that they circulated need to be

14 declared invalid and excluded as a violation of the

15 statute.

16 We just ask that the statutes as written,

17 that apply to every other citizen, be applied to

18 these people as they read. And, if that happens, the

19 petitions of the Libertarian candidates for Governor

20 and Lieutenant Governor need to be excluded and

21 invalidated and them ruled off the ballot.

22 Thank you, Professor Smith.

23 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Zeiger.

24 Mr. Brown.

25 Mr. Brown, I just -- just before you




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29

1 start, just to be clear, you have not submitted a

2 brief at this point on the issues.

3 MR. BROWN: No, I did submit a brief,

4 your Honor.

5 HEARING OFFICER: Oh, you did. Okay.

6 MR. BROWN: In fact, I've got more copies

7 if you did not get it.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Sure. If you've got a

9 copy handy, why don't you give it to me now. I'm

10 sure that Mr. Christopher has it and it just hasn't

11 gotten transferred or at least I haven't found it.

12 He probably has given it to me in all the late

13 filings.

14 MR. BROWN: I submitted it Sunday.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Ah. Wow, this is

16 indeed a brief.

17 MR. BROWN: Well, some of those -- some

18 are exhibits. The brief itself is only 17 pages.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All right.

20 Thank you very much, Mr. Brown. Proceed.

21 MR. BROWN: Well, since you didn't get a

22 chance to read it beforehand, Professor Smith, I'll

23 give you the CliffNotes version.

24 There are really two issues here, your

25 Honor. One of the issues is whether the circulators




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30

1 for the Libertarian Party had voted in any other

2 party's primary over the course of the last two

3 calendar years, the previous two calendars. That's a

4 look-back provision in Ohio law. That's in 3501 --

5 I'm sorry, 3513.05. It says if you did not vote in

6 the -- in another party's primary in the preceding

7 two calender years you are considered to be a member

8 of the party for which you're circulating. That's

9 not a presumption. It's not rebuttable. That's the

10 law in Ohio.

11 So the question here is whether any of

12 the circulators, the named circulators that have been

13 challenged I should say, for the LPO had voted in

14 another party's primary within the previous two

15 calender years.

16 The Secretary of State directs all Boards

17 of Elections to check for that using the State voter

18 database. So the fact that the Boards of Elections

19 have cleared all the circulators being challenged and

20 the Secretary of State has cleared all the

21 circulators being challenged, demonstrates, I don't

22 know that it's conclusive, but I think it's certainly

23 really good evidence, demonstrates they have not

24 voted in another party's primary in the previous two

25 calendar years. So, under 3501 -- 3513.05, they are




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31

1 valid circulators.

2 The challengers, the protestors, bluster

3 and innuendo is that they're really Democrats or that

4 they really belong to a party other than the

5 Libertarian Party. That's irrelevant, your Honor.

6 And, as the evidence is presented, we will object

7 based on relevancy grounds to the extent they're

8 trying to prove that they are members of another

9 party, but have not voted in another party's primary.

10 It's immaterial.

11 The second issue, your Honor, is whether

12 the circulators erroneously failed to disclose their

13 employers under 3501.38 subsection (E)(1) of the Ohio

14 State code. The law is clear, as made -- as pointed

15 out in our brief. In Ohio there is a distinction

16 between employers and -- employees and independent

17 contractors. The Ohio Supreme Court has said such,

18 the Court of Appeals in the Evans case, which is

19 cited in our brief a lot, has said such, that's the

20 law in Ohio. The Secretary of State in a couple --

21 in both of those cases argued to the contrary, tried

22 to argue that you had to disclose payors and the

23 courts rejected those arguments.

24 So the law in Ohio is you only have to

25 disclose your employer, you don't have to disclose




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32

1 your payor. So if you're an independent contractor

2 you do not have to disclose, you don't have to

3 disclose your payor, and you don't have to disclose

4 yourself as your employer. That's all there is to it

5 in Ohio.

6 In response to those two opinions,

7 rejecting the Secretary's argument to the contrary,

8 the Secretary of State issued directives acquiescing

9 in the court's opinions, and the directives say to

10 the Board of Elections that the employer statement is

11 a mere technicality. So, if the circulator gets it

12 wrong, you shall not exclude his or her petitions

13 based on an erroneous employer statement. Secretary

14 Blackwell said that; Secretary Brunner said that.

15 Secretary Husted has not said one way or the other,

16 but he has not rescinded either of those directives.

17 Those directives are the law in Ohio.

18 So, your Honor, even if the circulators

19 made a mistake, even if they were actually employed,

20 the mistake is a technicality. It does not require

21 the invalidation of the part-petitions.

22 The part-petitions include more than 500

23 valid voter signatures; the Secretary, the Boards of

24 Elections have so determined. What we have here,

25 your Honor, is the continuation of a Republican




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33

1 effort to exclude the Libertarian Party and its

2 candidates from the ballot. The legislature, the

3 Governor attempted to do that with SB 193, the

4 Libertarian Party went to federal court and we got a

5 federal court order saying you can't do that.

6 So now the Republican Party has lost in

7 federal court, the Libertarians are on the ballot,

8 and now they're renewing their efforts before you to

9 selectively kick their candidates off the ballot

10 using technicalities in Ohio law, using bluster and

11 innuendo.

12 I think the Secretary of State is smarter

13 than that. The Secretary of State recognizes the

14 game's over, the federal court, the federal judge put

15 the Libertarians on the ballot, it's time to move on,

16 and I think that's what we're here today to

17 establish, your Honor. Thank you.

18 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Thank you,

19 Mr. Brown.

20 All right. Let's proceed directly along.

21 By the way, if it's determined at some point

22 that, you know, somebody needs a break, just ask and

23 we'll see what we can do. We'll take a break at some

24 point later in the morning. But, with that, why

25 don't we go ahead and the protestors can begin to




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34

1 present their case and call their first witness.

2 MR. ZEIGER: Professor Smith, we will

3 call Robert Bridges.

4 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Bridges, we're

5 going to ask you to be seated here at this end of the

6 dais that way there's a microphone there so you can

7 be recorded for the transcript and I'll ask the court

8 reporter to swear you in as a witness.

9 (Witness sworn.)

10 MR. ZEIGER: May I approach?

11 HEARING OFFICER: Yes.

12 - - -

13 ROBERT BRIDGES

14 being first duly sworn, as prescribed by law, was

15 examined and testified as follows:

16 DIRECT EXAMINATION

17 By Mr. Zeiger:

18 Q. Mr. Bridges, I'm going to be asking some

19 questions about various documents. I will give you a

20 tab number and you will find the documents I'm asking

21 you about under that tab.

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. Okay? If you have any question or

24 concern about which document I'm asking you about,

25 just let me know.




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1 A. Certainly.

2 Q. Mr. Bridges, do you have any affiliation

3 with the Ohio Libertarian Party?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And what is that affiliation?

6 A. I am currently the elected vice chair of

7 the executive committee and I'm also the political

8 director of the party.

9 Q. Sir, how long have you been the political

10 director of the party?

11 A. Since 2011.

12 Q. And you held that position throughout all

13 of 2012 and '13 and this year as well?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And the same, sir, how long have you been

16 the elected vice president?

17 A. Since 2012.

18 Q. And, again, have held that position

19 continually since that day?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And that's the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. All right. Have you had occasion in that

24 position to review the bylaws of the Libertarian

25 Party of Ohio?




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36

1 A. Quite a few times.

2 Q. And you're familiar with them?

3 A. Lightly.

4 Q. I'm sorry?

5 A. Lightly.

6 Q. "Lightly." Well, I'll only ask you

7 lightly.

8 A. Thank you.

9 Q. If you'll turn to page -- or, Exhibit

10 P-6. In the book, No. 6, I'd like you to take a look

11 at that multi-page exhibit and tell me if that is in

12 fact the bylaws of the Libertarian Party of Ohio.

13 A. Without going through them verbatim, line

14 by line, it appears that they are.

15 Q. All right. Well, I'd like you to focus

16 on three lines, and that is under the first page,

17 "Bylaw 100 - Membership." Do you see that there,

18 sir?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. And it is true, is it not, that

21 membership in the Libertarian Party of Ohio "shall

22 consist of registered voters who participate in the

23 Libertarian Primary" and then some additional

24 language about others as well.

25 A. Yes, correct.




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1 Q. All right. So any person who

2 participates in a Libertarian primary is, by the

3 bylaws of the organization, deemed a member of the

4 Libertarian Party, correct?

5 A. The Libertarian Party of Ohio.

6 Q. Of Ohio. Thank you for the correction.

7 Sir, do you know a gentleman by the name

8 of Oscar C. Hatchett, Jr.?

9 A. I am aware of a gentleman by that name.

10 Q. Don't know him personally?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. All right. How did you become aware of

13 Mr. Hatchett?

14 A. Through a phone call initially back in

15 November of 2013.

16 Q. And that was a phone call to you?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And who was that phone call from?

19 A. Oscar Hatchett.

20 Q. All right. And can you share with us the

21 substance of that call?

22 A. He was inquiring how our candidates were

23 doing on their petition effort and if anybody, any of

24 our candidates would need his services. Since I'm

25 the political director, I'm assuming that's why he




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38

1 contacted me.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. That's what the conversation consisted

4 of.

5 Q. Did he describe what services he could

6 provide?

7 A. Yes. He said he could collect signatures

8 for me.

9 Q. On candidate petitions.

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. All right. And did Mr. Hatchett indicate

12 that he would like to be compensated for these

13 services?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. And what was the basis of the

16 compensation that he was to receive for these

17 services as he proposed it?

18 A. A paid-per-signature rate.

19 Q. All right. And how much was that?

20 A. It fluctuated between $2.00 and

21 two-and-a-quarter.

22 Q. Based on --

23 A. I think some of them were even cheaper at

24 a $1.50.

25 Q. All right. And did he explain to you why




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39

1 they would fluctuate?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Did the Libertarian Party of

4 Ohio ultimately engage Mr. Hatchett to collect

5 signatures on behalf of its candidates for Governor

6 and Lieutenant Governor?

7 A. Through Easy Access Petitions, yes.

8 Q. All right. What is Easy Access

9 Petitions?

10 A. It is -- I know it to be Oscar Hatchett's

11 company. Even though, I guess --

12 Q. I'm only interested in what you

13 personally know, sir.

14 A. There you go.

15 Q. Okay. So what you know is that Oscar

16 Hatchett does business under the name "Easy Access

17 Petitions" and you understand that to be his company.

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. In fact, Mr. Hatchett delivered 75

20 part-petitions for the Libertarian candidates for

21 Governor and Lieutenant Governor with approximately

22 662 signatures on them to the party, did he not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. And those were petitions that

25 he personally circulated.




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40

1 A. To my knowledge, yes.

2 Q. All right. Those were the ones where he

3 signed them as the circulator, correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. All right. And in fact the Libertarian

6 Party of Ohio paid him for those services?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you turn to No. 11 in the book?

9 Let's start with the second page of that

10 exhibit. Mr. Hatchett's directed a bill to you at

11 the Libertarian Party, dated November 18th, 2013, in

12 the amount of $700 for collecting signatures,

13 correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And indeed he said direct all inquiries

16 to Oscar Hatchett down in the bottom left-hand

17 corner?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And he said to make out the check to him,

20 didn't he?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. All right. And to his personal bank

23 account for transfer information.

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. The top, there's some handwriting,




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41

1 11/21/13, Check No. 1263; is that your handwriting?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. All right. Do you know whose it is?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the first page of

6 that exhibit. Can you tell me who Mr. Callagan is?

7 A. Mr. Bryant Callaghan is the treasurer of

8 the party.

9 Q. "Callaghan." I couldn't read the

10 signature. Thank you. He's the treasurer of the

11 Libertarian Party of Ohio.

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. All right. And that's his signature

14 there on the check that's got No. 1263 on it?

15 A. I am unfamiliar with Mr. Callaghan's

16 signature, so I cannot testify that that is his

17 signature or not.

18 Q. Fair enough.

19 MR. ZEIGER: We released him, Professor

20 Smith, from the subpoena, because he was going on

21 vacation, with assurances that there could be

22 satisfactory, knowledgeable testimony. If there's

23 any dispute about that being Mr. Callaghan's

24 signature, I think --

25 MR. BROWN: We -- we don't dispute that.




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1 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. And, again, I

2 remind all parties that we're not under strict

3 Federal Rules of Evidence and authentication and so

4 on.

5 Q. And, sir, in fact that was a check for

6 $700, paying the invoice which is page 2 of that

7 exhibit, correct?

8 A. Correct, it appears so.

9 Q. And it was paid by the Libertarian Party

10 of Ohio out of its funds.

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. There were subsequent payments to

13 Mr. Hatchett as well, were there not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. And if you turn to what I

16 believe to be the fourth page of that exhibit.

17 Again, there are -- there is an invoice directed to

18 you from Mr. Hatchett, regarding signatures collected

19 for Charlie Earl, as it says, and it shows that you

20 owed him a thousand dollars, correct?

21 A. That's what this invoice shows, yes.

22 Q. All right. And indeed the next page is

23 another invoice, dated January 8th, a week earlier,

24 from Mr. Hatchett, covering travel expenses and

25 deposit for printing petitions in the amount of $85,




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43

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And again that was sent directly to you.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And those were both, as you understood

6 it, sent to you in your position as political

7 director of the Libertarian Party of Ohio.

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And then if we'll turn back to the, what

10 I believe to be the third page, yes, the third page

11 of that exhibit, there is a check dated January 17th,

12 2014, in the amount of $1,085 from the Libertarian

13 Party to Oscar Hatchett, correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. So it's fair to say, as you understand

16 it, the Libertarian Party of Ohio paid Mr. Hatchett

17 for each and every one of the signatures that he

18 collected on the part-petitions that he signed as

19 circulator, correct?

20 A. The Libertarian Party of Ohio paid the

21 bill that was billed to us, so I would have to say

22 yes, we paid for every signature that we were billed

23 for.

24 Q. All right. And you understood

25 Mr. Hatchett was billing you for all the signatures




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44

1 that he was collecting?

2 A. For the Libertarian Party of Ohio, yes.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you.

4 Was Mr. Hatchett collecting signatures

5 for anyone else beside the Libertarian Party of Ohio

6 based on your knowledge?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who else was he collecting signatures

9 for?

10 A. I knew it to be Freedom to Marry. I

11 think you guys have a business name that they operate

12 under.

13 Q. I'm unaware -- it's not important to our

14 discussion here today.

15 A. Fair enough.

16 Q. But you were aware he was collecting

17 signatures and being paid for collecting those

18 signatures on behalf of the Freedom to Marry

19 Committee in Ohio.

20 A. Correct. After I had terminated the

21 relationship between the Libertarian Party of Ohio

22 with Oscar Hatchett, he asked if I knew of anybody

23 else that was looking for petitioners and I had said

24 I heard Freedom to Marry was looking for some

25 petitioners, you may want to check with them.




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1 Q. All right. Why did you terminate

2 Mr. Hatchett's employment or involvement with the

3 Libertarian Party of Ohio?

4 A. Because I blew my budget.

5 Q. All right. And when did you advise him

6 that you could not continue to engage him?

7 A. I would have to say that would be

8 mid-January sometime.

9 Q. Of 2014.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Did you know how many petition signatures

12 the Libertarian of Ohio had at that point to get the

13 Gubernatorial and Lieutenant Governor candidates on

14 the ballot?

15 A. Around 900-and-some. 985, I think.

16 Q. All right. Were you concerned that that

17 would not turn out to be a sufficient number of

18 ballot signatures to get the candidates on the

19 ballot?

20 A. Very concerned.

21 Q. What action did you take to try to

22 resolve that concern, if any?

23 A. I did a continuous plea to members of our

24 party to continue the petition drive. I reached out

25 to any and everybody that would listen to me that




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46

1 would help us out that would donate to our party so I

2 could continue paying a petitioner, because efforts

3 were -- were kind of weak and I wasn't at the numbers

4 that I was comfortable with with turning in.

5 Q. Was one of those people that you reached

6 out to a person by the name of Jason Dawkins?

7 A. I've never heard of that name before.

8 Q. All right. Did you have occasion to

9 reach out to representatives of the Ohio Democratic

10 Party for help?

11 A. Not on this matter.

12 Q. But on other matters?

13 A. Nothing concerning petitioning.

14 Q. All right. And -- and -- I've been

15 corrected. The name was Seth Dawkins. Do you know

16 Mr. Seth Dawkins?

17 A. I do not.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 When you indicated that you reached out

20 to anyone who would listen, did that include any

21 representatives of Strategy Network?

22 A. It was unknown to me that they were at

23 that time.

24 Q. All right. And who was the individual

25 you reached out?




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1 A. James Winnett.

2 Q. Mr. Winnett is one of the senior

3 executives at Strategy Network, correct?

4 A. Again, I did not know that. I knew him

5 through the Freedom to Marry.

6 Q. All right. And in fact you now know he

7 is a senior executive at Strategy Network.

8 A. If what you're stating is true is

9 correct, then yes.

10 Q. All right. And when did you first have a

11 conversation with Mr. James Winnett about assisting

12 with the collection of signatures for the Libertarian

13 candidates?

14 MR. BROWN: Objection, your Honor.

15 Relevance here. Again, there are two questions and

16 this doesn't go to either question.

17 MR. ZEIGER: Mr. Chair, clearly we are

18 establishing what we thought we would establish which

19 is that an effort was undertaken by the Democratic

20 Party to get a candidate on the ballot whose own

21 party would not have produced enough signatures to

22 get them on the ballot and that the evidence goes to

23 the validity of the certifications of each of the

24 four people from Strategy Network who were out

25 soliciting petitions claiming to be Libertarians when




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48

1 they were in fact not Libertarian.

2 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I'm going to let

3 you go ahead here, but I do want to stress that again

4 the protest does not say that it's illegal for, you

5 know, or invalidates the petition if the Democratic

6 Party strategizes or otherwise provides certain types

7 of assistance. We are looking at the two issues, as

8 you define in your opening statement: Were the

9 petitioners members of the party and were they paid,

10 so. And, again, we have a lot of witnesses today and

11 a lot to cover, so I would just urge you to use your

12 time wisely and keep us moving along, but I will let

13 you go ahead at this point, but please keep those

14 facts in mind.


16 Q. (By Mr. Zeiger) Sir, when did you reach

17 out to James Winnett and have the first conversation

18 with him?

19 A. Comfest 2011.

20 Q. What month was that?

21 A. The month of June.

22 Q. Did you renew those discussions with

23 Mr. Winnett after you terminated the services of

24 Oscar Hatchett?

25 A. I talked with Mr. Winnett probably weekly




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49

1 upon various subjects.

2 Q. Let me restate the question.

3 A. Most importantly, real quick, the Freedom

4 to Marry is how I know James Winnett. The

5 Libertarian Party of Ohio was the first political

6 party in the state of Ohio to endorse the measure.

7 Q. Yes, sir.

8 A. And we petition religiously for them.

9 Q. Sir, my question was did you have

10 occasion to reach out to Mr. Winnett, following the

11 time you determined you didn't have enough money to

12 pay solicitors to continue to solicit petitions on

13 behalf of the Gubernatorial and Lieutenant Governor

14 candidates of the Libertarian Party?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And that would have been in late January

17 of 2013 -- of 2014?

18 A. Mid-January.

19 Q. And as a result of that, Mr. Winnett

20 engaged Strategy Network to go ahead and do

21 petitioning for you?

22 A. I have no idea.

23 Q. All right. Let me back up for a minute.

24 Do you know a person by the name of Sara Hart?

25 A. I know of a person named Sara Hart.




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1 Q. How do you know of Sara Hart?

2 A. She contacted me, stating that she was

3 petitioning for Oscar, and she was unable to get

4 ahold of Oscar and would like to know if I could get

5 ahold of Mr. Hatchett. I'm sorry to use first names.

6 Q. No, that's fine.

7 And she indicates she was petitioning for

8 Oscar on behalf of obtaining signatures for the

9 Libertarian Party?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And in fact you understood

12 that she was a paid solicitor of signatures on behalf

13 of the Libertarian Party.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Sir, I'm going to hand you what's been

16 marked as Exhibit P-79.

17 MR. ZEIGER: May I approach?


19 Q. This was a document that was produced to

20 us this morning. Following your call with Sara Hart,

21 you e-mailed Mr. Hatchett, did you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you, in that -- and this is in fact a

24 copy of that e-mail?





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51

1 Q. And, sir, in that e-mail you describe

2 Sara Hart as Mr. Hatchett's petitioner, correct,

3 "your petitioner"?

4 A. That is the words I state.

5 Q. And that was your understanding of her

6 role.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Was to assist -- assist Mr. Hatchett in

9 obtaining signatures on the petitions for the two

10 Libertarian candidates.

11 A. How Mr. Hatchett came to get Sara Hart to

12 collect signatures for the Libertarian Party and its

13 candidates is unknown to me. I had no direct contact

14 with paying Ms. Hart nor has the Libertarian Party of

15 Ohio paid Ms. Hart.

16 Q. All right. But your understanding was

17 that she was working at the direction of and behest

18 of Oscar Hatchett to collect signatures on behalf of

19 the two Libertarian candidates, correct, sir?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And you understood that Sara Hart was in

22 fact a paid petition solicitor, did you not?

23 A. I assume she was being paid by

24 Mr. Hatchett.

25 Q. All right. Sir, did there come a time




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52

1 when you received a series of part-petitions that

2 Sara Hart had circulated?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. And that was shortly before

5 the filing deadline for the Libertarian Party

6 candidates to be on the ballot?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. And at that point did you

9 make any inquiry as to whether the Libertarian Party

10 owed Sara Hart any money?

11 A. No.

12 Q. All right.

13 HEARING OFFICER: If I may, excuse me a

14 moment. Do we have, Mr. Zeiger, do you know, do we

15 have Mr. Hatchett here today?

16 MR. ZEIGER: I don't know that, your

17 Honor. We believe he's validly subpoenaed, but

18 there's been a suggestion he would not appear.

19 MR. BROWN: He's here, but they've

20 sequestered him.

21 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. He is here

22 today.

23 MR. ZEIGER: He is here. Okay. Thank

24 you.

25 HEARING OFFICER: What I wonder is if we




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53

1 can't get simpler answers to this quicker simply

2 through the testimony of Mr. Hatchett, and if, at

3 that point, you feel it's necessary to re-call this

4 witness to try to make further proof, we could do

5 that.

6 But, again, in the interest of moving

7 along, I wonder if that would be something that would

8 perhaps be more efficient in this case. I'll leave

9 that to you, but I want to suggest that that might be

10 a way that we can try to get going with this hearing,

11 because we're 20 minutes into examining Mr. Bridges,

12 whom I don't take to be a key witness for the

13 protestors. And I'm afraid that if we're going at

14 this rate, we're going to be here past the statutory

15 deadline of Friday.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. ZEIGER: Well, I'm always encouraged

18 to follow advice from the Chair. I might say I

19 disagree with the characterization that he's not a

20 key witness because I think they have just laid the

21 predicate for the violations on the first issue

22 beyond any dispute.

23 MR. BROWN: If it will move things along,

24 your Honor, we're willing to stipulate that the LPO

25 paid Mr. Hatchett.




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1 HEARING OFFICER: I think the question

2 here he's trying to get at is whether Mr. Hatchett

3 paid Ms. Hart; is that correct?

4 MR. ZEIGER: Yes, that is correct.

5 HEARING OFFICER: Do you want to

6 stipulate to that or you're not --

7 MR. BROWN: I have no knowledge of that,

8 your Honor, but.

9 HEARING OFFICER: Well, again, my

10 thinking is that Mr. Hatchett can probably testify

11 directly on that, and if he surprises you in his

12 testimony and you want to re-call someone else,

13 Mr. Bridges or others, again I'm just thinking that

14 might move us along a little bit.

15 MR. ZEIGER: That stipulation is not

16 forthcoming?

17 MR. BROWN: What? That Mr. Hatchett --

18 MR. ZEIGER: Paid --

19 MR. BROWN: -- paid --

20 MR. ZEIGER: -- Ms. Hart.

21 MR. BROWN: -- paid Ms. Hart? We'll

22 stipulate to that.

23 MR. ZEIGER: For the collection of

24 signatures --

25 MR. BROWN: We don't know, but to move




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55

1 things along, it's not going to, like you said, your

2 Honor, it's not key, then we'll stipulate to that.

3 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So you're

4 prepared to stipulate that Mr. Hatchett paid

5 Ms. Hart, either Mr. Hatchett or the company, which I

6 take it to be a sole proprietorship, so it would be

7 the same, but Easy Access Petitions.

8 MR. BROWN: Exactly, your Honor, yes.

9 HEARING OFFICER: Does that satisfy --

10 MR. ZEIGER: As long as that it's clear

11 that it was paid to collect signatures for the

12 part-petitions for the two Libertarian candidates for

13 Governor and Lieutenant Governor which I think was

14 implicit in his stipulation.

15 MR. BROWN: Yes, that's fine.

16 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I'll let you --

17 I don't know if you have other questions for

18 Mr. Bridges, I'll let you carry on. Thank you for --

19 pardon the interruption.

20 MR. ZEIGER: No, that's quite all right.

21 At any time, please.

22 Might I have a second?

23 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, of course.

24 Mr. Christopher, could we get the witness

25 some water?




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56


2 MR. ZEIGER: Mr. Chairman, there is a

3 document that we received this morning that is being

4 copied and hasn't yet come back and I would like to

5 reserve the right to re-call this witness as soon as

6 we have that or we can wait as you'd prefer.

7 HEARING OFFICER: Well, why don't --

8 unless we think it's going to be here like in 60

9 seconds, why don't we reserve the right to re-call

10 the witness.

11 And I'm sorry about this, Mr. Bridges,

12 but we will need to ask you of course to stick around

13 and of course at this point you may be examined by

14 Mr. Brown, too, or at least after Mr. Zeiger is

15 finished if he has any other questions.

16 Q. (By Mr. Zeiger) Mr. Bridges, other than

17 Oscar, Hart, and perhaps, as stipulated, Sara -- I'm

18 sorry, Mr. Oscar Hatchett and Sara Hart, did the

19 Libertarian Party of Ohio pay anyone else to solicit

20 signatures on behalf of the Gubernatorial and

21 Lieutenant Governor candidates?

22 A. To my knowledge, no.

23 MR. ZEIGER: Mr. Chair, subject to the

24 right to re-call for the document that has been

25 delayed, I have no further questions at this time.




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1 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you,

2 Mr. Zeiger. And, again, thank you for bearing with

3 me and kind of interrupting the flow of your

4 examination.

5 MR. ZEIGER: Not a problem.

6 HEARING OFFICER: Maybe that helped us

7 get -- I think that helped us move things along some.

8 Mr. Brown, do you have questions?

9 MR. BROWN: Thank you.

10 - - -

11 CROSS-EXAMINATION

12 By Mr. Brown:

13 Q. Mr. Bridges, are you an employee of the


15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Do you know if the LPO, the Libertarian

17 Party of Ohio, has any employees?

18 A. We haven't had an employee for some time

19 and --

20 Q. Any idea how long?

21 A. Years.

22 Q. Years?

23 Was Mr. Hatchett an employee of the


25 A. No, sir.




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1 Q. Was he an independent contractor?

2 A. I assume so.

3 Q. To your knowledge did the Libertarian

4 Party of Ohio withhold payroll taxes when it paid

5 Mr. Hatchett?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did Mr. Hatchett have an office at the

8 LPO?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Was he required to be anywhere at any

11 specific time by the LPO?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did he punch a clock?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you tell him or to your knowledge did

16 anyone with the LPO tell him how to go about

17 collecting signatures?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you frequently meet with him?

20 A. We met on a couple -- frequently, no. A

21 couple occasions, yes.

22 Q. A couple? Maybe two, three occasions

23 over --

24 A. I would have to say two occasions that we

25 met face-to-face.




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1 MR. BROWN: Just one second.

2 Q. Did you or anybody for the LPO supervise

3 Mr. Hatchett?

4 A. No.

5 MR. BROWN: That's all I have, your

6 Honor. Thank you.

7 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you.

8 Mr. Bridges, you can step down. We'll

9 ask you -- do you want to come back?

10 MR. ZEIGER: I would like brief redirect

11 limited to what --

12 HEARING OFFICER: Sure. Go ahead,

13 please.

14 MR. ZEIGER: -- has been asked

15 previously.

16 - - -

17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

18 By Mr. Zeiger:

19 Q. Sir, if you would turn to Exhibit 14,

20 P-14 in the book. Let's just look at the first page.

21 I believe that the rest of the pages of that exhibit,

22 as at least on the front of the page are identical.

23 Did you provide Mr. Hatchett the Declaration of

24 Candidacy that he was to use in soliciting

25 signatures?




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1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. All right. And, sir, I see that the

3 first page of P-14 shows that it has been filled out.

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. It's got handwriting in all the blanks,

7 correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. All right. And you provided to

10 Mr. Hatchett the Declaration of Candidacy with all of

11 the wording that's on the front page in handwriting

12 or script for him to use in soliciting signatures?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And in fact you were -- strike that.

15 Who filled that form out?

16 A. Mr. Charles Earl and Ms. Sherry Clark.

17 Q. All right. So where the word

18 "Libertarian" is found in the first section of the

19 Statement of Candidacy for Governor, that printed

20 word "Libertarian" was put there by who?

21 A. That would have been myself.

22 Q. Okay. And indeed in the second Statement

23 of Candidacy for Lieutenant Governor, the word

24 "Libertarian" was put there by who?

25 A. On the back part?




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1 Q. No, no. On the second -- I'm sorry. The

2 second statement down on the first page, "I, Sherry

3 L. Clark," with an address, "I further declare I

4 desire to be a candidate for nomination of the office

5 of Lieutenant Governor as a member of the" blank

6 party. Who filled in "Libertarian"?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. All right. And you filled in all the

9 date and information there for Sherry Clark?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the same thing would have been true

12 for Charles Earl other than his signature?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the same thing would have been true

15 on the petition for candidate at the bottom, you

16 filled in Libertarian, Charles R. Earl and Sherry L.

17 Clark?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And the only forms that you provided to

20 Oscar Hatchett had all that information laid out in

21 them, correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And you told Mr. Hatchett to use that

24 form for solicitation of signatures, correct?

25 A. Correct.




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1 Q. I notice on the back there's also a word

2 down in the circulator statement, printed the word

3 "Libertarian," do you see that?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. "I am a member of the Libertarian Party."

6 Who printed the word "Libertarian" there?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. All right. And so the form that you told

9 Mr. Hatchett to use was prepared by you in all

10 substantive respects other than the signature by him

11 and the petitioners.

12 A. And the signatures of the candidates.

13 Q. And the candidates. Thank you. That's

14 correct, is it not?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And did you have a conversation with

17 Mr. Hatchett about whether he should complete the box

18 at the bottom right on the second page of the first

19 document in Exhibit 14 about whether he was being

20 employed by someone to circulate these?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. You did not give him any kind of

23 direction as to whether to complete it or not?

24 A. Correct.

25 MR. ZEIGER: All right. Thank you,




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63

1 Mr. Chairman. Reserving our -- oh, excuse me.

2 MR. BROWN: No further questions.

3 MR. ZEIGER: Might I have just a moment,

4 please?


6 MR. ZEIGER: I apologize, Professor

7 Smith, but we just received these this morning and,

8 as you know, it's a little complicated to do things

9 on the fly. I have marked this document as Exhibit

10 P-82.

11 Q. (By Mr. Zeiger) Mr. Bridges, do you know

12 a gentleman by the name of Nathan Eberly?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. All right. That's E-b-e-r-l-y?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. And who is he?

17 A. He is the field development director of

18 the Libertarian Party of Ohio and also a candidate

19 for the Libertarian Party of Ohio for the statehouse.

20 Q. State representative or state senator?

21 A. State representative.

22 Q. Sir, and who is Bob Coogan?

23 A. Bob Coogan is a member of the Libertarian

24 Party of Ohio and was a candidate for Ohio auditor --

25 Q. All right.




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64

1 A. -- at this time when this e-mail was

2 printed.

3 Q. And -- and the top e-mail, this appears

4 to be printed off your e-mail because your name's

5 across the top of that, is that correct, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you provided this pursuant to the

8 subpoena that was served?

9 A. I was never served a subpoena, sir.

10 Q. All right. But you provided this, this

11 morning, through your counsel.

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. All right. And I want to make sure that

14 that's true of all four pages of the exhibit.

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. The first section is addressed to Bob and

17 Daryl and that's from Bob Coogan to who?

18 A. Myself and Daryl Olthaus.

19 Q. Who is Mr. Olthaus?

20 A. Mr. Olthaus is the secretary of the


22 Q. All right. And did you understand at

23 that point that "a quick status on petition

24 signatures" meant candidacy petition signatures?

25 A. Yes, sir.




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65

1 Q. All right. And what did the No. 3 for

2 Earl/Clark mean as you understood it?

3 A. Those were individual numbers from

4 individual people petitioning around the state. I

5 had asked for -- just a little back story -- I had

6 asked for spot check, give me numbers where you're

7 at. This is a snapshot of where Bob Coogan was when

8 he was collecting signatures and that is addressed to

9 me and Mr. Olthaus.

10 Q. All right. The next line down, next

11 three lines down under the signature of Bob, meaning

12 Bob Coogan, reflects an e-mail you wrote to

13 Mr. Coogan, does it not, on January 11th, 2014?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that message you sent to Mr. Coogan

16 on January 11th, 2014, it was, quote, okay, just as I

17 am ready to fold, I get a message from outside the

18 party. We should know something Monday. If not, my

19 source will come to Columbus on, I assume that's

20 supposed to refer to Wednesday, to see what he can

21 do. I hope all is not lost at least not yet.

22 That was your statement to Mr. Coogan on

23 January 11th, correct?


25 Q. All right. And when you say "I am ready




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66

1 to fold," you meant fold the entire solicitation of

2 petitions on behalf of the two candidates of the

3 Libertarian Party for Governor and Lieutenant

4 Governor, correct, sir?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Then let's go down to the next message

7 with Mr. Eberly on Saturday, November -- I'm sorry,

8 Saturday, January 11th. This is an e-mail from

9 Eberly to you and Mr. Knedler, is it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who is Mr. Knedler?

12 A. Kevin Knedler is the chair of the


14 Q. All right. And there are other

15 addressees there. They were all members of the

16 Libertarian Party leadership?

17 A. Either -- either leadership of the party

18 or they were candidates at that time or petitioning

19 to be candidates at that time.

20 Q. All right. And Mr. Eberly's e-mail to

21 the addressees, including you, is: "This was a

22 failure at all levels for LPO, save a few instances

23 or bright spots with petitioning. We still have many

24 people that have not stepped up to the challenge,

25 even though the profess" -- I assume "they profess"




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67

1 is what was intended -- "the strong desire to see

2 success for the LPO and Liberty in Ohio." See that,

3 sir?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. When there's a reference to "failure at

6 all levels for the LPO" that meant in the

7 solicitation of enough signatures to get candidates

8 for Governor and Lieutenant Governor on the ballot,

9 correct?

10 A. Negative, sir. All our statewide slate.

11 Q. Including the Governor and Lieutenant

12 Governor candidates.

13 A. To be included, yes.

14 Q. All right. Let's drop down slightly

15 further. At that time Mr. Eberly indicated, quote,

16 we are in crisis mode. Do you see that, sir?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. All right. That meant in terms of the

19 failure to collect enough signatures to get statewide

20 candidates including Gubernatorial and Lieutenant

21 Governor candidates on the ballot, correct?

22 A. The crisis mode was more --

23 MR. BROWN: Objection, your Honor, again

24 just on relevance grounds. I don't see where this is

25 going. This is not tied to whether or not anybody




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68

1 was paid or employed. No relevance.

2 HEARING OFFICER: I do just have the

3 sneaking suspicion that we can get to the crux of

4 this issue much more quickly. Isn't the question did

5 the LP recognize that at that point in time or

6 believe that it was unlikely to gather enough

7 signatures, did it accept help from someone else, and

8 does it know that those people were paid. I mean

9 isn't that something along the lines of where we're

10 at?

11 I just, I am concerned, we're not in a

12 court of law, and we don't need all of the specifics

13 and admissibility and foundation that we might

14 necessarily need in a court of law and I really am

15 concerned about moving this along today. We're now

16 -- we're about 40 minutes in since we called this

17 witness and you've got about 15 witnesses you want to

18 call today. This isn't going to work if we can't

19 move it along.

20 MR. ZEIGER: I appreciate the admonition.

21 Please understand that we believe that there are

22 facts here that demonstrate illegality and need to

23 invalidate important candidacy petitions. I

24 apologize if we're taking longer than expected, but I

25 do believe --




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69

1 HEARING OFFICER: As I understand it, the

2 facts we're concerned with are were these individuals

3 paid and it strikes me that we can get at that much

4 more quickly than without worrying about what was the

5 atmosphere in the Libertarian Party organizations in

6 early January.

7 MR. ZEIGER: The other issue is did the

8 Democrats work with the Libertarians or without the

9 Libertarians to get enough signatures when the

10 Libertarians had decided that they were going to

11 otherwise fail.

12 HEARING OFFICER: My understanding is you

13 have agreed, unless I misunderstood when you laid

14 them out in your initial comments, that's not really

15 a legal problem, it's not part of your protest, as I

16 understand it, that you're suggesting that the law

17 makes it illegal for people outside the party to work

18 with people in the party. It merely makes it illegal

19 for paid petitioners not to disclose that they're

20 paid and it makes it illegal for someone who is not a

21 member of the party to actually be a petitioner.

22 MR. ZEIGER: I believe that the relevance

23 is that it shows that those who represented on their

24 part-petitions that they were Libertarians were not

25 in fact Libertarians. That is what we're offering it




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70

1 for.

2 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Well, I think

3 we're approaching that status of being cumulative.

4 And, again, it strikes me that we're spending a lot

5 of time on a witness that might move much more

6 quickly if we just ask Mr. Hatchett if he's a

7 Libertarian and see what he has to say about that or

8 focus on others.

9 Maybe it's just the order in which we're

10 calling witnesses, but I feel like we're spending a

11 lot of time laying something that some other witness

12 might just give us one question, one answer, and

13 we're done with proving that point. If the answer is

14 different and then you want to build a circumstantial

15 case that that witness's credibility is at stake, you

16 know, then it seems to me it might be more relevant

17 to work in this direction.

18 Again, I'm going to give you leeway to do

19 this, I want you to build your case as you think it's

20 appropriate, but we really need to avoid long,

21 cumulative evidence and, again, we don't need to

22 structure the questions quite as formally as we might

23 were this a court of law.

24 The question I would have -- well, I

25 won't do this now, but I may decide that I'll ask




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71

1 some questions at some point, but I'll let you go

2 ahead. Again, I'm just -- we are not going to get

3 through your witnesses today if we don't pick it up

4 and at some point I'm going to say this is cumulative

5 so I don't know which witnesses you think are most

6 important, we need to move through most quickly,

7 that's the challenge, I think we face.

8 MR. ZEIGER: Thank you. Thank you,

9 Professor Smith.

10 Q. (By Mr. Zeiger) Sir, Turning to the

11 bottom of the second page of this exhibit.

12 A. P-82?

13 Q. Yes. Last paragraph on the page. This

14 is from Kevin Knedler to you and to other leaders and

15 candidates of the Libertarian Party?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On Saturday, January 11th, 2014?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. States that you need a minimum of --

20 excuse me, that you need 500 valid signatures?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And so the goal was to have a minimum of

23 850?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And at that point you did not have 500,




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1 correct?

2 A. January 11th, I had over 500, almost a

3 thousand at that point for our Governor and

4 Lieutenant Governor candidate.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. My other statewide candidates, with the

7 exception of Mr. Linnabary who had already filed for

8 Attorney General, were what we were majorly concerned

9 about, that would be Secretary of State, auditor, and

10 treasurer.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 The next paragraph in that e-mail says,

13 from Mr. Knedler, "I have been working with some

14 folks outside...the party in the shadows." Who is

15 that referred to? Who was he working with outside

16 the party in the shadows?

17 A. No idea.

18 Q. Did you come to learn that that was

19 Strategy Network and Ian James and his people?

20 A. Again, I have no idea who Mr. Knedler was

21 conversing with or what he was referencing that to.

22 Q. All right. And then, sir, on the third

23 page there's an e-mail from you to Kevin Knedler,

24 "The time has come for me to admit defeat. The party

25 has failed to collect enough signatures to ballot




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73

1 qualify your candidacies." Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. "To date I have in the office only

4 handfuls of petitions for each," correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. That's what you were telling Mr. Bridges

7 at an unidentified date in January?

8 A. I am Mr. Bridges.

9 Q. I'm sorry. I apologize. You were

10 telling Mr. Knedler that.

11 A. Yes. I'm a pessimist.

12 Q. Going back to the first page, third line

13 of the e-mail. "Just as I am ready to fold I get a

14 message from outside the party." Again, sir, did you

15 understand that to mean Strategy Network and Ian

16 James and his colleagues?

17 A. No.

18 Q. All right. Who did you understand that

19 to mean?

20 A. James Winnett. I'm sorry, I spoke "no"

21 too quickly.

22 Q. So that was on January 11th of 2014, you

23 were writing that you were ready to fold until you

24 got a message from Mr. Winnett and Strategy Network.

25 A. From Mr. Winnett only. I, again, for




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74

1 clarity sake, I did not know until this hearing that

2 he worked for Strategy Network or whatever.

3 Q. And what was the content of the message

4 from Mr. Winnett?

5 A. Basically that they would be able to help

6 us out petition because we helped them petition.

7 Q. "They" being the Ohio Democratic Party?

8 A. "They" being Freedom to Marry.

9 Q. And ultimately Strategy Network did

10 obtain more than 50 signatures for your Gubernatorial

11 and Lieutenant Governor candidates, did it not?

12 A. If you say so. I -- I don't know.

13 MR. ZEIGER: Thank you very much, sir.

14 I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Brown.

16 MR. BROWN: No questions.

17 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Mr. Zeiger

18 -- I'm sorry, Mr. Bridges, you're excused for now.

19 Again, we would ask you to stay here because we did

20 have a -- we still had a document or do you think

21 we're done with Mr. Bridges. Do you want to release

22 him?

23 MR. ZEIGER: We just used the document we

24 had obtained. Thank you.

25 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Now, do you plan




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75

1 to call him this afternoon in the -- or, you're not

2 representing Mr. Linnabary.

3 MR. ZEIGER: I am not.

4 HEARING OFFICER: And Mr. Kennedy is not

5 here, is he?

6 MR. ZEIGER: No.

7 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Have you

8 been -- okay, well, you're not under subpoena, so I

9 guess you are free to go, Mr. Bridges. Thank you

10 very much.


12 like to call Mr. Knedler to the stand.

13 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Knedler is in the

14 room. He was not asked to remove himself.

15 MR. ZEIGER: Sure.

16 HEARING OFFICER: All right.

17 Mr. Knedler, I'll ask the reporter to swear you in.

18 (Witness sworn.)

19 MR. TIGGES: Thank you.

20 - - -

21 KEVIN J. KNEDLER




25 By Mr. Tigges:




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76

1 Q. Good morning. Could you state your full

2 name, please.

3 A. Kevin J. Knedler -- John Knedler.

4 Q. And do you hold a position with the


6 A. I do. I'm the executive committee

7 chairman --

8 Q. And for how long?

9 A. -- of the Libertarian Party.

10 Q. For how long have you held that position?

11 A. Came in 2007.

12 Q. Mr. Knedler, there should be somewhere in

13 front of you certain exhibits, documents, and one I

14 believe is loose which is marked as Protestors

15 Exhibit 82.

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. If you could find that and let me know

18 once you've had an opportunity to look at it.

19 A. I have P-82.

20 Q. And specifically, sir, my questions of

21 you will pertain to the e-mail that appears at the

22 bottom of the second page of P-82. If you would find

23 that and let me know once you've had a chance to look

24 at it, please.

25 A. Okay. I've found the bottom of page 2.




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1 Q. That is an e-mail you sent on Saturday,

2 January 11th, 2014?

3 A. Yeah. Yes.

4 Q. And you sent it to Mr. Bridges and other

5 members of the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you make a statement in there, "I

8 have been working with some folks outside of the

9 party in the shadows." Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What do you mean "in the shadows"?

12 A. Anybody outside of the Libertarian Party

13 of Ohio.

14 Q. Specifically "in the shadows," what does

15 that mean?

16 A. Anybody outside the Libertarian Party of

17 Ohio.

18 Q. Who specifically were you referring to in

19 this e-mail that you were working with in the

20 shadows?

21 A. Well, I was talking to the National Party

22 for one thing.

23 Q. Who else?

24 A. I was talking to some Tea Party people,

25 this was in general conversations, Ron Paul people,




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78

1 if I could find them, and any independents I could

2 talk to.

3 Q. Okay. Were you talking to anyone

4 affiliated with the Ohio Democratic Party?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who?

7 A. I had a breakfast meeting that I had been

8 trying to plan with some leadership of the Democratic

9 Party, but I would have welcomed a similar meeting

10 with the Republicans.

11 Q. Specifically who were you communicating

12 with at this time?

13 A. I had a short breakfast with Mr. Redfern.

14 Q. And did you discuss with him, at that

15 breakfast meeting, the crisis mode in which you found

16 your party relative to the collection of signatures

17 for candidacy petitions?

18 A. The crux of the breakfast was a thank you

19 for standing up for freedom and Senate Bill 193 which

20 the Republicans did a go job thwarting that, did a

21 great job, so, therefore, it was a thank you for them

22 to stand up and say, you know, there needs to be

23 voter freedom and suffrage in the state. That was

24 the crux of the breakfast.

25 Q. And during the course of the breakfast,




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1 though, did you have discussion with Mr. Redfern

2 regarding the problems you were facing, the crisis

3 mode that you were facing regarding the collection of

4 signatures of candidates?

5 A. The crisis mode was January 8th there was

6 a rendering from the court, federal courts that we

7 were going to be on the ballot and we knew we had one

8 month to go and we had the worst weather in 60 years,

9 that was -- that was the reality of the situation.

10 Q. Did you discuss that with Mr. Redfern at

11 the meeting?

12 A. I did state if there's any help that can

13 come from anybody out there, we'll appreciate it.

14 That was it though.

15 Q. Help in collecting signatures.

16 A. If that's what it meant, that's what it

17 meant.

18 Q. Did you discuss this problem you were

19 confronting with other members of the Democratic

20 Party?

21 A. I don't follow your question.

22 Q. You said you had this discussion with

23 Mr. Redfern at the breakfast meeting. Now, aside

24 from talking to him about it, did you speak with

25 others affiliated with the Democratic Party about the




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1 problems you were having collecting signatures?

2 A. He has an assistant I spoke to on the

3 phone once, but that was it. I left it to them if

4 they wanted to do anything. I did not manage or get

5 involved in anything.

6 Q. Who expressed to you their hesitancy to

7 donate because of the continuing court battles and

8 appeals?

9 A. Well, there were people that were -- this

10 was a general statement, some of it was conjecture on

11 my part, was that there was a feeling that people

12 didn't want to donate because at that point, before

13 January 8th, we weren't sure that we were even on the

14 ballot yet. We could have lost that court case, that

15 appeal, so therefore there were people that were

16 hesitant and I, you know, would be one of them. Why

17 donate money to pay a petitioner if you don't even

18 know you're going to be on the ballot. It's a waste

19 of money. Save that money for a later time.

20 Q. In terms of the people you were working

21 with in the shadows, did that include anyone

22 associated with the Strategy Network?

23 A. No. I -- I don't even know who they

24 were.

25 Q. Or Mr. Winnett?




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1 A. I've never met him. I don't know who

2 this person is.

3 Q. Or anyone affiliated with Ohioans -- Ohio

4 for Liberty?

5 A. I don't know these people.

6 MR. TIGGES: Nothing further. Thank you,

7 Professor.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Tigges.

9 Mr. Brown.

10 MR. BROWN: Just a couple of questions,

11 your Honor. This is kind of outside the scope of

12 direct, but we're going to call Mr. Knedler in our

13 case. Just for efficiency purposes maybe I can ask

14 them now.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Again, the nature of

16 this hearing we don't have to be overly concerned

17 with direct and cross and so on. In fact I'm going

18 to give people a lot of leeway to lead even friendly

19 witnesses if it will help us to get to answers

20 quickly, so.

21 MR. BROWN: I'll just ask these few

22 questions.

23 - - -


25 By Mr. Brown:




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1 Q. Mr. Knedler, are you an employee of the


3 A. No.

4 Q. Does the Libertarian Party of Ohio have

5 any employees?

6 A. No. They have not since March of 2006.

7 Q. Are you familiar with Oscar Hatchett,

8 Jr.?

9 A. I found out his name through Mr. Bridges

10 in mid-January, early January, but actually I have

11 never spoken to him. I saw him here today, but I've

12 never had any conversation with him.

13 Q. Did you direct his circulation effort?

14 A. No, not at all.

15 Q. Did you supervise his circulation effort?

16 A. No, not at all.

17 Q. Was he an employee of the Libertarian

18 Party of Ohio?

19 A. No, he's not.

20 Q. To your knowledge were any payroll taxes

21 withheld from payments made to Mr. Hatchett?

22 A. I'm not aware of anything, no.

23 Q. Did you -- well, you already said you

24 never met with him. Is it your understanding that he

25 was just an independent contractor?




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1 A. Yes, independent.

2 MR. BROWN: I have no further questions.


4 Mr. Tigges, anything else?

5 MR. TIGGES: No, your Honor.

6 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, very much,

7 Mr. Knedler. I'll ask you to step down.

8 And, Mr. Zeiger, Mr. Tigges, I'll let you

9 call -- now, this is the pace we want to see with

10 witnesses.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. ZEIGER: Your Honor, you're only

13 going to encourage his comments later after the

14 hearing, so please. We would call Oscar Hatchett,

15 Jr.

16 HEARING OFFICER: If we can send out for

17 Oscar Hatchett. He's waiting, I think.

18 And again, Mr. Zeiger, I don't mean to

19 step on you presenting your case. I am really

20 concerned about the time for our witnesses especially

21 for us just to get to a resolution that will allow

22 the Secretary time to get a recommendation and review

23 it, so.

24 MR. ZEIGER: I appreciate the sensitivity

25 of the issues in terms of timeliness.




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1 (Pause in proceedings.)

2 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Hatchett, why don't

3 you just sit there at the end of the dais, please,

4 and I'm going to ask the court reporter to swear you

5 in for your testimony. Thank you for being here with

6 us.

7 (Witness sworn.)

8 MR. BROWN: Mr. Hatchett, Mr. Zeiger will

9 question you first.

10 Mr. Zeiger.


12 - - -

13 OSCAR C. HATCHETT, JR.




17 By Mr. Zeiger:

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hatchett.

19 A. Good morning.

20 MR. ZEIGER: If I might approach?


22 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions,

23 Mr. Hatchett, about some documents. Most of them are

24 going to be in this big book in front of you, and

25 when I give you a number, turn to the tab with the




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85

1 documents behind that number, okay? But we're going

2 to start with the one that's not in the book.

3 Mr. Hatchett, you're here pursuant to a

4 subpoena issued by my office, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. And that subpoena had an

7 attachment on it, identifying the documents you were

8 to bring to the hearing today. That attachment has

9 been marked as Exhibit 15. Do you have any

10 documents, sir, that are responsive to this?

11 A. No, I do not.

12 Q. None at all?

13 A. No.

14 Q. To any of the four categories?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. All right. Sir, where do you reside?

17 A. 501 Mineola Avenue.

18 Q. And that's in Akron, Ohio?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Sir, were you engaged by the Libertarian

21 Party of Ohio to circulate petitions on behalf of

22 Charles Earl and Sherry Clark?

23 A. Sherry Clark?

24 Q. Yes. Sherry L. Clark.

25 A. Yes.




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1 Q. All right. And, sir, if you would turn

2 to Exhibit 14 there in the book.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. And I understand you won't be able to

5 tell if they're precisely the ones that you

6 circulated, but let's take a look at the first couple

7 and tell me if those are in fact photocopies of

8 petitions that you did circulate on behalf of

9 Mr. Earl and Ms. Clark.

10 A. I believe so, yes.

11 Q. Okay. For example on the bottom

12 left-hand corner of the second page, the back page of

13 the first document, that's your signature, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that you were

16 paid by the Libertarian Party of Ohio for each and

17 every one of the signatures you collected on those

18 petitions?

19 A. I'm an independent contractor, yes, sir.

20 Q. That wasn't my question, sir. If you'll

21 answer my question, please. You were paid for each

22 and every one of the signatures on those petitions.

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And that payment came from the





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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 From whom did you get the petition form?

4 A. I got it from Bob Bridges, sir.

5 Q. And he is the political director of the


7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. All right. Didn't get it from anybody

9 else.

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. The time that you received the part -- or

12 the petition form, was the entire front page filled

13 out?

14 A. I don't understand what you're saying.

15 Q. Would you look at -- let me rephrase the

16 question, I apologize.

17 Would you look at the document that has

18 the exhibit sticker down in the corner, it says P-14.

19 Do you see that, sir?

20 MR. ZEIGER: Might I approach?

21 HEARING OFFICER: Sure. Try to point out

22 to you exactly what we're referencing here.

23 Q. On the first page of Exhibit 14, it has

24 the sticker down in the corner, P-14.

25 A. (Nodding.)




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1 Q. Okay. Was this form totally filled out

2 when you received it?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. All right. There was -- all the

5 handwriting, all the printing was there?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Okay. And on the back is it true that

8 the word "Libertarian" was filled in at the time you

9 received the form?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The hand printed word "Libertarian"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And so on each of the forms that you

14 circulated, each of the part-petitions, it was the

15 Libertarian Party that filled in the word

16 "Libertarian" under your circulator statement.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. And no one gave you any

19 option to fill in any other term, did they?

20 A. No. I mean --

21 Q. You weren't directed to do that by

22 Mr. Bridges when he said --

23 A. You know, you're supposed to be

24 unaffiliated or --

25 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't




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1 hear you, sir.

2 A. I don't know --

3 Q. Let me rephrase the question for the

4 benefit of the reporter.

5 Sir, you weren't given any option as to

6 what to fill in for the party affiliation; that came

7 to you from the Libertarian Party at the time they

8 provided the form to you.

9 A. It was on the petition.

10 Q. And "they" were, the Libertarian Party

11 was the one that put it on the petition.

12 A. I guess.

13 Q. All right.

14 HEARING OFFICER: Is it fair to say when

15 you got the petition, that had been filled in by

16 someone?

17 THE WITNESS: I believe most of them were

18 filled out like that. I believe. Yeah, I mean.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And you got the

20 petition from the Libertarian Party.

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

22 Q. And just to be perfectly clear, sir, you

23 never printed the word "Libertarian" on any of the

24 circulator statements at the bottom of the back page

25 of each of the petitions, did you?




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1 A. You know, I filled -- I turned in so many

2 of those things, I might have wrote a couple of them

3 down on a couple of them, but I'm pretty sure that

4 they were already filled out.

5 Q. Just what the Libertarian Party told you

6 to put there.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Mr. Hatchett, would you just take a quick

10 look at the exhibits under tab 11. I think there are

11 three separate invoices there and several checks. Is

12 it fair to say, sir, that the invoices were issued by

13 you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. And is it fair also to say

16 that the payments that are shown there by checks, you

17 received?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. And that all came from the


21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. Did there come a time the

23 Libertarian Party of Ohio told you to stop collecting

24 signatures?

25 A. Yes.




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1 Q. And when was that, sir, do you know?

2 A. I guess when they were trying to figure

3 out who they actually really wanted to actually put

4 forward to be on the ballot. They told me to hold

5 up.

6 Q. All right. And was that in mid to late

7 January of this year?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Mr. Hatchett, you should have there --

10 MR. ZEIGER: If I again may approach?


12 Q. -- you should have a single sheet of

13 paper that says Exhibit P-79 on here.

14 A. Right here.

15 Q. Yes, that's it. Would you take a look at

16 that, please?

17 MR. ZEIGER: Mr. Chairman, you should

18 have a copy.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Which exhibit are we

20 at? P-79?

21 MR. ZEIGER: Yes. It's the --

22 THE WITNESS: Okay.

23 MR. ZEIGER: -- e-mail.


25




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1 Q. Sir, did you receive an e-mail from Bob

2 Bridges, reflecting as -- as reflected there on

3 January 23rd, 2014?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that e-mail indicated that you should

6 call your petitioner Sara, she is trying to get ahold

7 of you. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And your response was that you would.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Is Sara, Sara Hart?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. She assists you in collecting

14 signatures?

15 A. Sara is just a petitioner. I work for

16 ABC Nationwide Petition Agency. I just know her from

17 just previous campaigns. She's not one of mine --

18 she doesn't work under me. She's just one of my

19 petitioner friends.

20 Q. All right. Did she have any role in

21 collecting signatures for the Gubernatorial and

22 Lieutenant Governor candidates of the Libertarian

23 Party?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. You knew she was collecting




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93

1 those signatures?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And you were coordinating her

4 efforts on doing so?

5 A. Coordinating her to the Libertarian Party

6 but not like helping her get the signatures. She's

7 her own person, she gets her own signatures.

8 Q. So you were the one who connected her

9 with the Libertarian Party.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. She is a paid signature solicitor, is she

12 not?

13 A. She is an independent contractor, yes.

14 Q. All right. I didn't ask about

15 independent contractor. She's a paid signature

16 solicitor, is she not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And your understanding was she was being

19 paid to solicit the signatures she solicited on

20 behalf of the Libertarian Party.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know who was paying her?

23 A. The Libertarian Party.

24 Q. All right. Thank you.

25 Sir, let's go back to Exhibit 14. Do you




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94

1 see that?

2 A. P-14?

3 Q. P-14. Let's turn the first page of that

4 exhibit over so we're looking at the back of the

5 first page. Sir, that box down there, "To be

6 completed by circulator, if applicable."

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You didn't fill that in on any of the

11 part-petitions that you circulated on behalf of the

12 Libertarian Party candidates, did you?

13 A. No, because I've never, never had to ever

14 in my career.

15 Q. My question was, sir, you didn't fill it

16 in, did you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And, sir, were you advised by the

19 Libertarian Party what to do with that box?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you discuss that with Mr. Bridges or

22 anyone else on behalf of the Libertarian Party.

23 A. I -- I discussed it with him. I asked

24 them if I needed to fill it out. I've never had to

25 fill out that part of a petition in my 12 years of




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95

1 petitioning because I'm an independent contractor, I

2 don't report to anyone.

3 Q. Well, we'll come back to your status. My

4 question was did you have occasion to discuss with

5 the members of the Libertarian Party the question of

6 how you ought to fill that box out or whether you

7 should fill it out?

8 A. I just asked him if I should fill it out

9 and he said I didn't.

10 Q. And who was the person that you asked?

11 A. Bob Bridges.

12 Q. All right. And Mr. Bridges told you

13 what?

14 A. He said that he wasn't sure and I told

15 him that I'm an independent contractor, you guys

16 aren't my employer, so I didn't fill it out.

17 Q. All right. And Mr. Bridges agreed that

18 that would be the way that you would proceed, not to

19 fill that box out.

20 A. That's -- actually -- actually, I just

21 shipped them to the Libertarian Party and he kind of

22 talked to some people, like lawyers and things, and I

23 was going to come up here to fill out that box if I

24 needed to, but I guess that I didn't need to because

25 I never had --




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1 Q. Okay. So let's be clear you and

2 Mr. Bridges had a conversation about making the

3 disclosure in the box.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Bridges told you not to do it and --

6 A. No.

7 Q. -- that he would check further.

8 A. No, no, no, no, no. I just shipped him

9 the petitions.

10 Q. Let's back up. We're still talking about

11 the first telephone conversation where you asked the

12 question of Mr. Bridges, should you fill it out, and

13 he told you not to, but that if he needed you to, he

14 would have you come to Columbus to do so.

15 A. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No.

16 Actually, I shipped all my petitions to the

17 Libertarian Party without filling this box out. And

18 then I called Bob, telling him that, you know, we had

19 this conversation about, you know, I didn't fill out

20 that box, da, da, da, should I fill out the box, and

21 Bob really didn't know what to really tell me, and I

22 told him just from my previous experience as a

23 petitioner that I've never had to fill out that box.

24 Q. Right. So you decided you would leave it

25 in Mr. Bridges' hands to determine whether you needed




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97

1 to fill out the box and you would be available to

2 come to Columbus to fill out the boxes if he

3 requested.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. So you were prepared to do

6 whatever the Libertarian Party told you to do in

7 terms of filling the box.

8 A. Well, I wanted my signatures to count.

9 Q. So the answer is yes.

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Sir, you've always understood that you

12 could circulate petitions only as long as you did not

13 affiliate with a particular political party?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. And you always understood

16 that an affiliation with a particular political party

17 would substantially restrict the opportunities you

18 would have to make money circulating petitions.

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. So it's fair to say you have never been a

21 member of any political party.

22 A. I am unaffiliated, yes.

23 Q. And indeed you have never been a member

24 of the Libertarian Party.

25 A. No.




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1 Q. You have never been a member of the

2 Libertarian Party, correct?

3 A. No. I'm not -- I'm unaffiliated, sir.

4 I'm not part of the Libertarian Party.

5 MR. ZEIGER: Thank you.

6 I have nothing further.


8 Counsel.

9 - - -


11 By Mr. Brown:

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hatchett.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. I believe you stated you're an

15 independent contractor; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you also stated that you have been

18 circulating petitions in Ohio for how many years?

19 A. I've been petitioning across the United

20 States of America forever. So back in maybe the

21 casino petition back in 2000, what was it -4, or -6,

22 the last time.

23 Q. And that's here in Ohio.

24 A. Yeah, yeah.

25 Q. So that'd be, if it's 2004, it's been 10




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99

1 years; if it's 2006, it's been --

2 A. Yeah, about.

3 Q. And you've done that as an independent

4 contractor; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you testified that you've never

7 filled out the employer statement form on any

8 petitions?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Have you ever had any of your petitions

11 to your knowledge invalidated because you did not

12 fill out the employer statement form?

13 A. Nope.

14 Q. Just how many petitions, part-petitions

15 do you think you filed in Ohio in the last six,

16 eight, ten years?

17 A. You guys saw them. Maybe 20- to 50,000,

18 maybe.

19 Q. Part-petitions or signatures?

20 A. Signatures. Well, yeah, signatures, so,

21 okay. So 10,000. Let's just say 10,000.

22 Q. 10,000 part-petitions and not one has

23 been invalidated because you did not fill out the

24 employer statement.

25 A. No.




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1 Q. Did you have an office at the Libertarian

2 Party -- Libertarian Party of Ohio headquarters?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you have any withholdings from the

5 payments, tax withholdings, payroll tax withholdings,

6 made by the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you have a clock you had to punch?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Where there hours that you had to work

11 according to the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did they direct in any way how you went

14 about collecting signatures?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You made that choice on your own.

17 A. Yes, sir. I'm my own boss.

18 Q. Time of day, the location.

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. So you're not an employee of the


22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Have you ever been an employee of the


25 A. No, sir.




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1 Q. Have you ever been an employee of any

2 political party?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Have you, in the last two calendar years,

5 the preceding two calendar years, voted in an Ohio

6 political party primary?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. The checks paid to you by the Libertarian

9 Party of Ohio were made out to you as Oscar

10 Hatchett; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. On the invoices, the invoices also

13 indicate Easy Access Petitions.

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Is that a separate corporation?

16 A. No, no. It's just a website. It's how I

17 kind of get clients and stuff. I'm not like a

18 corporation.

19 Q. So it's just you.

20 A. It's just me, man.

21 Q. It's not a separate business entity.

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Sara Hart, you testified that Sara Hart

24 does not work for you.

25 A. No.




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1 Q. Has she ever worked for you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you ever done any payroll tax

4 withholdings for Ms. Hart, have you taken out FICA,

5 for example --

6 A. No.

7 Q. -- Social Security tax --

8 A. No.

9 Q. -- or --

10 A. No.

11 Q. You've not provided any unemployment

12 insurance to her?

13 A. I mean I wish I had it like that, but no.

14 Q. Is it safe to say to your knowledge she's

15 an independent contractor?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. You stated that to your knowledge the

18 Libertarian Party of Ohio paid Sara Hart, is that

19 correct, did you state that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How do you know that?

22 A. That she got paid?

23 Q. That she was paid by the Libertarian of

24 Ohio.

25 A. Because -- I believe you guys paid her.




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1 Q. But to your knowledge you really don't

2 know.

3 A. I really don't.

4 Q. To your knowledge was Sara Hart ever an

5 employee of the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

6 A. No.

7 MR. BROWN: I have no further questions.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Brown.

9 Anything else here?

10 MR. ZEIGER: Thank you. Professor Smith,

11 we do not. We can excuse the witness as far as we're

12 concerned.


14 Mr. Hatchett, we, I believe, also have you under

15 subpoena for this afternoon's hearings, so I'm afraid

16 we're going to ask you to remain -- well, no, he's

17 not under subpoena for the afternoon hearing, is he?

18 MR. CHRISTOPHER: No.

19 HEARING OFFICER: He's not. Okay.

20 MR. RIESER: Your Honor, if I may. I'm

21 David Rieser, I work with Mr. Kennedy.

22 HEARING OFFICER: Oh, okay. Good.

23 MR. RIESER: And if we could ask,

24 obviously, as may have been informed by the parties,

25 we didn't have sufficient enough time to request




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1 those administrative subpoenas due to the time that

2 Mr. Akers received the notice from the Commission

3 giving us a time frame in which to issue the

4 subpoena. We would ask, by agreement of the parties,

5 if Mr. Hatchett would remain and be subjected to the

6 subpoena that was issued previously.

7 MR. BROWN: I can't agree to that, your

8 Honor. What I would agree to is I'll stipulate to

9 the use of his testimony or I'll stipulate to just

10 having examination right now.

11 HEARING OFFICER: Well, I was going to

12 say, there's, I think, a couple ways we can handle

13 this.

14 Mr. Hatchett, are you available to remain

15 through the day?

16 THE WITNESS: I mean if it's really

17 needed, but I don't know why it's really needed.

18 HEARING OFFICER: Is there an objection

19 if Mr. Rieser goes ahead and does any examination he

20 wants to do for this afternoon's hearing at this

21 point in time?

22 MR. ZEIGER: No objection from us, your

23 Honor.

24 MR. BROWN: No objection.

25 HEARING OFFICER: Would that be




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1 acceptable, Mr. Rieser? Do you think you're prepared

2 to do that? I know this is now short notice on you.

3 MR. RIESER: Unfortunately, my file and

4 the notes that we were going to address Mr. Hatchett

5 are back at the office. I had not anticipated, I had

6 a court matter that was continued, that's the reason

7 I came down to listen. If you could give me about

8 half an hour, your Honor.

9 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All right. We

10 will -- Mr. Hatchett, I will ask you if you will

11 remain for re-call, it may be possible -- we have two

12 protests going on today and you're under subpoena for

13 one of those and it may be requested that you --

14 THE WITNESS: What's the other one? I

15 don't even know what the other protest is.

16 HEARING OFFICER: Well, it relates to

17 Mr. Linnabary. Did you --

18 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Did you collect

20 signatures --

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

22 HEARING OFFICER: -- for the Linnabary

23 effort?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

25 HEARING OFFICER: So I think the




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1 questioning will be quite a bit along the same lines

2 as we just had so I hope it will be fairly short. If

3 you can wait. There could be a possibility you could

4 be re-called. If you could stay available for us for

5 about an hour or so, a half hour, and let Mr. Rieser

6 prepare, and we will then call you back and then let

7 you try to get on your way and get on with your day

8 It's very much appreciated. I thank you very much.

9 So I will excuse you now and ask you if you will --

10 if we can take Mr. Hatchett back to the waiting area.

11 And thank you very much, Mr. Hatchett, I appreciate

12 it.

13 Mr. Rieser, when you are ready then, why

14 don't you just come in and you can let

15 Mr. Christopher and the reporter know and we can do

16 that. And that will be, I think, convenient for

17 Mr. Hatchett which is nice to do.

18 MR. RIESER: Thank you.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Zeiger.


21 call Sara Hart. It is our understanding that a

22 subpoena was issued. We have no reason to believe

23 that the subpoena is being honored, but we,

24 nonetheless, call her if she is here to testify.

25 HEARING OFFICER: Is Sara Hart --




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1 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I do not believe so,

2 but I will go downstairs.

3 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We will

4 doublecheck on that.

5 Now, you know, we can attempt to enlist a

6 process in fining her if she's not here, legal

7 services, but again the indications are she has left

8 the state and is very unlikely to be available to us

9 on a timely basis.

10 Again, I point out that we're not subject

11 to strict Rules of Evidence, we can take hearsay,

12 we've heard some comments from Mr. Hart -- or, I

13 mean, from Mr. Hatchett and Mr. Knedler and we can

14 hear others, and if you want to build a

15 circumstantial case that way, including use of

16 hearsay, we can certainly do that today.

17 And, again, I'm also free to draw some

18 inferences from her absence that might not be drawn

19 if we were in an Article III, you know, court of law

20 or something, so, but we'll see if she's here first

21 and see if we can go from there.

22 It's 11:09. If we want to take about a

23 10-minute break. Why don't we take about a 10-minute

24 break while they bring Ms. Hart in. And if we can

25 convene -- reconvene at 11:20 promptly, please. I'd




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1 appreciate it.

2 (Recess taken.)

3 MR. DEMARCO: Do you want me to do my

4 proffer?

5 HEARING OFFICER: Sure. Sure. Okay.

6 MR. DEMARCO: I represent the following

7 people who received subpoenas in this case: Ian

8 James, Samuel Runta, Emily Baker, and Andrew

9 Goldsmith. And I rise to state my objections to this

10 proceeding. There -- the statute 3513.05 under which

11 we're operating, requires the Secretary of State to

12 hear this matter. We know of no statutory authority

13 that allows them to fulfill this duty by assigning it

14 in whole or in part to anyone else including to

15 Professor Smith. Therefore, we do not believe that

16 Professor Smith has the authority to conduct this

17 hearing.

18 This leads us to two conclusions. The

19 Secretary of State has no authority to compel my

20 clients to appear before Professor Smith pursuant to

21 a subpoena and to answer questions against their

22 will. Second, my clients cannot entrust Professor

23 Smith, because of his lack of authority, the

24 determination of privilege claims in this case,

25 including their claim of the associational privilege




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1 under the First Amendment to the Constitution.

2 So that while my clients are willing

3 voluntarily to provide documents and have provided

4 documents voluntarily and oral information that may

5 be potentially helpful to Professor Smith, they

6 cannot place before Professor Smith, even for a

7 private review, documents they contend are privileged

8 under either the attorney-client privilege or the

9 associational privilege under the First Amendment,

10 and my clients cannot depend on Professor Smith to

11 defend and protect their constitutional rights in

12 this matter.

13 Nothing I say in this proceeding shall be

14 deemed as a waiver of Professor Smith's lack of

15 authority to conduct this hearing.

16 I also want to make a proffer with

17 respect to what Ian James would testify to. We're

18 objecting to testimony of Ian James beyond the

19 matters discussed in the prior conference call.

20 Specifically, if he were asked these questions he

21 would give these answers:

22 Were you a circulator of petitions for

23 the Earl/Clark campaign? He would give the answer

24 no.

25 Were you involved in organizing,




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1 managing, and supervising the circulators of

2 signatures for the -- of petitions for signatures of

3 the Earl and Clark campaign? He would give the

4 answer yes.

5 Would being compelled to disclose the

6 identities of persons with whom you communicated

7 regarding the management, organization, and

8 supervision of the signature-gathering for the

9 Earl/Clark campaign alter how you communicate in the

10 future? He would answer yes.

11 Would compelled disclosure of such

12 communications with such persons make you less

13 willing to engage in such communications in the


15 Would compelled disclosure of the

16 identities of such persons and your communications

17 with them make them less likely to become involved --

18 make you, rather, less likely to become involved in

19 such activities in the future? He would answer yes.



22 with them make it less likely that others would ask

23 you to become involved in such activities in the


25 As part of your work in political




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1 campaigns, do you depend on your ability to attract

2 like-minded associates willing to engage with you in

3 such political activities? He would answer yes.



6 with them make you less -- I'm sorry -- negatively

7 affect your ability to attract such associates and

8 form such associations in the future. He would

9 answer yes.

10 Thank you.

11 (Off the record.)

12 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I'd like to call

13 this hearing back to order on this day.

14 We had -- Mr. Zeiger had asked to call

15 Sara Hart. I've been informed that Ms. Hart is not

16 in fact with us. So, Mr. Zeiger, how would you like

17 to proceed? Or you have matters, other matters

18 related to Ms. Hart?

19 Mr. Tigges.

20 MR. TIGGES: We would like to call

21 Mr. McGinnis.

22 HEARING OFFICER: Do we need to send out

23 for Mr. McGinnis?

24 MR. MCTIGUE: I'll go get him.





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1 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I believe

2 Mr. McGinnis is here.

3 MR. MCGINNIS: I am.

4 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. McGinnis, we're

5 asking witnesses to sit here at the end of the

6 dais --

7 MR. MCGINNIS: Okay.

8 HEARING OFFICER: -- and speak into the

9 mic.

10 And, before we start, there have been

11 some questions raised prior to our hearing today

12 about whether certain items and testimony is covered

13 by attorney-client privilege, and I note that might

14 be raised today, we might have to pause to look at

15 something in camera as well.

16 Mr. McGinnis is an attorney, so I trust

17 him to be pretty sharp on attorney-client privilege,

18 but you are represented by counsel here today, as

19 well, I understand. Is that correct?

20 MR. MCGINNIS: That is correct.

21 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. McTigue.

22 MR. MCGINNIS: Yes.

23 HEARING OFFICER: What I told the lawyers

24 for both sides is that given the informal nature of

25 this hearing, Mr. McTigue, I will allow you to object




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1 from back there if you think an attorney-client

2 privilege is going to be breached on the basis of the

3 question. It's one of the nice things about the

4 informal nature of this hearing, maybe one of the few

5 nice things, but a nice thing about it.

6 So, with that, I will ask the reporter to

7 swear Mr. McGinnis in.

8 (Witness sworn.)

9 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Tigges.


11 - - -

12 MARK A. MCGINNIS



15 DIRECT-EXAMINATION

16 By Mr. Tigges:

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. McGinnis.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Can you state your full name, please?

20 A. Mark Alan McGinnis.

21 Q. And you are a lawyer?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. Admitted to the bar of Ohio?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You are here pursuant to a subpoena that




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1 was served on you?


3 Q. Served on you personally.

4 A. Left at my house, yes.

5 Q. The protestors also served a subpoena on

6 Ohioans for Liberty. Are you also here pursuant to

7 that subpoena?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is Ohioans for Liberty?

10 A. A 501(C)(4) organization, I believe.

11 Q. And what is its purpose?

12 A. Social welfare.

13 Q. What do you mean by "social welfare"?

14 A. The articles of incorporation state

15 social welfare and all permissible purposes under

16 501(C)(4).

17 Q. And you referenced the articles of

18 incorporation. You, in fact, are the incorporator of

19 Ohioans for Liberty, are you not, sir?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. In the exhibit book if you could look at

22 Protestors Exhibit 43, please.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. And you recognize those as the articles

25 of incorporation for Ohioans for Liberty?




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1 A. I do, yes.

2 MR. TIGGES: If we refer to this as "OFL"

3 to save time?

4 HEARING OFFICER: That will work.

5 MR. TIGGES: We'll all be on the same

6 page.

7 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.

8 MR. TIGGES: With your Honor's

9 permission. Thank you.

10 Q. OFL was incorporated on October 19th,

11 2012?

12 A. I apologize. I'm just reading from the

13 articles. It says October 26th, 2012.

14 Q. You're correct. I apologize. October

15 26th, 2012. And the articles identify you as the

16 incorporator?

17 A. Yes, as the statutory agent. Yes, as the

18 statutory agent.

19 Q. And as incorporator, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who are the officers of OFL?

22 A. We believe that's privileged. That

23 hasn't been -- that isn't contained on any public

24 filing.

25 Q. That doesn't make it privileged, sir. My




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1 question is who are the officers.

2 MR. MCTIGUE: It's attorney-client

3 privilege in terms of who the principals are and the

4 officers unless it's required to be filed.

5 HEARING OFFICER: Why doesn't everybody

6 come up here for a minute.

7 (Bench conference.)

8 HEARING OFFICER: Carolyn, you might let

9 the record show that we're giving Mr. McTigue some

10 time to confer with his client on this and then we'll

11 resume the questioning.

12 (Attorney-client discussion.)


14 MR. MCTIGUE: Thank you.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I've asked the

16 reporter to note on the record that we did have a

17 brief conference up here and then Mr. McTigue had

18 some time to confer with his client.

19 And Mr. McTigue -- or, I'm sorry,

20 Mr. Tigges, I'll let you go ahead and we'll see how

21 far we get.


23 Q. (By Mr. Tigges) Does OFL currently have

24 any officers?

25 A. No.




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1 Q. Does it have any directors?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Has OFL ever had any officers?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Has it ever had any directors?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, prior to its date of incorporation

8 on October 19th, 2012 --

9 A. I'm sorry, 26th.

10 Q. I'm sorry. I'm going to make a note of

11 that because that's the second time I got it wrong.

12 I apologize.

13 Prior to OFL's incorporation on

14 October 26th, 2012, what was OFL?

15 A. Nonexistent.

16 Q. Well, if you take a look at Exhibit 44,

17 sir. Do you recognize Exhibit 44 as a trade name

18 registration for Ohioans for Liberty?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Filed by your partner, correct?

21 A. Don is getting credit for that one. I

22 thought I filed that.

23 Q. Is that your signature that appears?

24 A. I signed it, yes.

25 Q. All right. And this was filed in




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1 November of 2010?

2 A. Correct. November 12th, 2010.

3 Q. And you did in fact sign and file this

4 with the Secretary of State?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. And on the second page of Exhibit 44,

7 toward the bottom half of the page, there's an area

8 that says the "registrant is" and then you're

9 supposed to check a box there. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what box did you check?

12 A. Unincorporated association.

13 Q. So prior to its incorporation, OFL was an

14 unincorporated association?

15 A. Actually, I don't agree with that.

16 Q. That's the box you checked on this form

17 that you filed with the Secretary of State, correct?

18 A. So I agree that Ohioans for Liberty that

19 we're looking at here, the name registration was an

20 unincorporated association based on the box that was

21 checked, yes.

22 Q. And when it was an unincorporated

23 association, who were the members of OFL?

24 MR. MCTIGUE: I'm going to have to object

25 to this line of questioning. There is a -- there was




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1 a different organization with the same name in 2010

2 that was registered as a 527 organization, that's the

3 unincorporated association that these questions are

4 directed to. Mr. McGinnis isn't -- wasn't subpoenaed

5 with respect to any information regarding the 2010

6 organization.

7 So -- and I'm offering this, in part, to

8 try to clear it up because I can understand why the

9 questions are being asked, but that was actually a

10 separate organization, organized under Section 527 of

11 the Internal Revenue Code which now -- which was

12 terminated later.

13 A. Actually, I believe the last page here is

14 the consent to use of name on Exhibit 43, for use of

15 a similar name.

16 Q. That's part of the articles of

17 incorporation or attached to the articles of

18 incorporation at least.

19 A. Okay. That may be how they do it when

20 you file it; that may be.

21 Q. Now, when you incorporated OFL, at that

22 time was the unincorporated association terminated?

23 A. I don't recall.

24 Q. At the time that OFL was incorporated did

25 the unincorporated association have a bank account?




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1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Let me see if I can help you. If you

3 look at Plaintiff's Exhibit -- oh, were you ever an

4 officer of OFL, the unincorporated association?

5 A. I'm not sure that it had officers.

6 Q. Well, let's look at Plaintiff's Exhibit

7 45, sir.

8 MR. MCTIGUE: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to

9 make an objection here. He's asking questions about

10 a different organization. Mr. McGinnis is not here

11 as a representative of that organization.

12 HEARING OFFICER: He is also here under

13 an individual subpoena. I think certainly he knows

14 if he was an officer of a prior organization or can

15 say if he doesn't recall which I think he said he

16 didn't recall.

17 MR. MCTIGUE: I'd like to also register a

18 relevance objection to 2010, a different

19 organization, has no relevance to what we're talking

20 about today.

21 HEARING OFFICER: Well, you know, again,

22 as I've indicated to the two parties involved, I'm

23 going to let some of this evidence get on. I

24 understand the Plaintiff's theory. I have to say

25 that I question the extent to which some of this




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1 material is relevant. Again, I see this case as

2 having a couple of discreet legal issues that were

3 outlined in Mr. Zeiger's opening argument.

4 I'll give you some leeway to go ahead and

5 do this to the extent that Mr. McGinnis has

6 recollection of events, I think I know where you're

7 going in trying to talk about the two entities, and

8 at least a couple more questions will perhaps reveal

9 whether you're straying offline from that, so I'm

10 going to let it go at this point.

11 MR. TIGGES: Thank you, your Honor.

12 Q. (By Mr. Tigges) Exhibit 45, sir, is a

13 series of forms filed by OFL, the unincorporated

14 association, with the Internal Revenue Service. Do

15 you see that?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. And you filed them, did you not?

18 A. Yes, I did. I'm sorry, I'm looking

19 through each.

20 Q. The first form is a Form 8872.


22 Q. That goes on for three pages. And then

23 the second form is a Form 8871, correct?


25 Q. And it lists you as the custodian of




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1 records -- or, it lists your law firm as the

2 custodian of records for OFL, correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. It lists you as the contact person?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And then on the second page of that form,

7 8871, it states that the purpose of the organization

8 is to support/oppose candidates for public office.

9 You caused that to be written there?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Then on the next page of Form 8871,

12 there's a list of all the officers, directors and

13 highly compensated employees and you have listed

14 yourself there as the treasurer of OFL, correct, sir?


16 Q. That was the position you held at the

17 time?

18 A. That is what the form says.

19 Q. For how long did you hold the office of

20 treasurer of OFL?


22 Q. Were there ever any other officers?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, if you could turn with me, sir,

25 to --




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1 MR. TIGGES: Well, first, can I approach

2 the witness, your Honor?



5 A. I'm sorry, you know, could I say -- were

6 there officers, actually I'm going to say I don't

7 recall. I just don't recall.

8 Q. Sir, let me hand you what's marked as

9 Plaintiff's -- or, Petitioners Exhibit -- Protestors

10 Exhibit 33. Mr. McGinnis, do you recognize Exhibit

11 33?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. What is it?

14 A. It appears to be -- it's a confirmation

15 of a wire transfer that occurred into Ohioans for

16 Liberty Incorporated's account.

17 Q. And this was at a point in time when you

18 were the treasurer for Ohioans for Liberty?

19 A. I apologize. I'm looking for the date of

20 the transfer. I apologize.

21 HEARING OFFICER: I think the date on the

22 transfer, it looks like just below all the little

23 icons in the center of the page it says "Run 26

24 October 2012."

25 A. 2012.




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1 MR. MCTIGUE: Mr. Hearing Officer, the

2 question was the transfer to Ohioans for Liberty, but

3 the document actually shows it was Ohioans for

4 Liberty Inc. I'm bringing this up because we're

5 talking about two different organizations.

6 Mr. McGinnis testified he was a treasurer of the 527

7 from 2010. We have a separate organization here,

8 Inc., which he's testified he's not a treasurer for.

9 MR. TIGGES: Mr. McTigue is getting to

10 the heart of one of the issues I wanted to clear up

11 with this witness.

12 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. At this point,

13 again, I'd like to steer forward. And at this point,

14 Mr. McTigue, as I indicated I'm happy to allow

15 objections relating to privileges from the floor, but

16 I think otherwise the reality is I don't want to

17 stretch the informality too far at this point.

18 You're not a party to the proceedings,

19 and if Mr. Brown cares to object, but, you know,

20 again I'm happy to take objections to things that you

21 think are privileged, and shouldn't be on relevance

22 and so on, I prefer that we leave that for the

23 parties at the table if we can.

24 Again, Mr. Tigges, let's try to keep it

25 relevant to the narrow issues here before us and see




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1 if we can't move along.

2 Q. (By Mr. Tigges) Exhibit 33 documents a

3 wire transfer to Ohioans for Liberty Inc. from the

4 Ohio Democratic Party, correct, sir?


6 Q. And that wire transfer occurred on

7 October 26th, 2012?

8 A. Yes, that's what the document says, yes.

9 Q. In the amount of $828,000?

10 A. Correct. That's what the document says.

11 Q. Now, was that donation by the Democratic

12 Party to Ohioans for Liberty, was that to Ohioans for

13 Liberty the corporation or Ohioans for Liberty the

14 unincorporated association?

15 A. That appears to be to Ohioans for Liberty

16 the incorporation.

17 Q. And if you could turn to Exhibit 39, sir,

18 in the notebook. That is a record we obtained from

19 the office of Secretary of State showing that Ohioans

20 for Liberty has received two contributions; one, the

21 contribution from the Ohio Democratic Party that we

22 just discussed, and a second from AFSCME also in

23 October 2010. Do you see that?

24 A. I do see that.

25 Q. And the AFSCME contribution is in the




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1 amount of $10,000?

2 A. Yes, that's what the document says.

3 Q. Has Ohioans for Liberty had any other

4 source of funding aside from these two contributions?

5 MR. MCTIGUE: Can I see the document that

6 we're talking about?

7 Thank you.

8 Okay. So one is from 2010 and one is

9 from 2012, okay.

10 MR. TIGGES: Correct.

11 MR. MCTIGUE: Okay.

12 A. I apologize. Can you repeat the previous

13 question? I apologize.

14 Q. Has Ohioans for Liberty had any source of

15 funds other than the two donations that are reflected

16 on Exhibit P-39?

17 MR. MCTIGUE: I'm going to object to

18 that. I think in terms of, first of all, I think

19 he's asking about Inc., correct? Donations to --

20 HEARING OFFICER: Well, I was thinking

21 the same thing. It has been stated that we have two

22 organizations, one that existed in 2010 and another

23 that was incorporated in 2012 that is not related to

24 that. So, Mr. Tigges, how are you framing that

25 question?




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1 MR. TIGGES: Let me re-ask it, your

2 Honor.

3 Q. Has Ohioans for Liberty Inc., the

4 incorporation, had any source of funds other than the

5 $828,000 contribution by the Ohio Democratic Party?

6 MR. MCTIGUE: I'm going to have to

7 object. I think that's attorney-client privilege

8 except to the extent that donations are publically

9 reported. We're talking about donations to a (C)(4).

10 It's -- it's privileged confidential information.

11 HEARING OFFICER: Well, I think the

12 question there as to whether it's privileged is

13 whether this is something that the witness would know

14 from serving as the -- as an attorney for the group

15 versus other public information or having learned it

16 from any role that he might have held in the group.

17 So I'll let the witness invoke the privilege if he

18 thinks that is appropriate. And if he thinks he

19 knows the information from some other -- on some

20 other basis, then I think he has to answer the

21 question.

22 Again, you can't make things privileged,

23 simply by being an attorney doesn't mean that

24 everything you get is privileged, nor can you make

25 something privileged that's not privileged simply by




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1 handing a copy of it to your attorney.

2 So I'll leave it to the witness whether

3 he believes it's appropriate to invoke

4 attorney-client privilege. At this point this would

5 really be you raising this question in this matter.

6 A. I apologize. Can you restate the

7 question?

8 Q. Has Ohioans for Liberty corporation, had

9 any source of funds other than the $828,000

10 contribution from the Ohio Democratic Party?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What other sources of funds have there

13 been?

14 A. That, I believe, is privileged.

15 Q. Are the sources of funds, donations from

16 someone other than the Ohio Democratic Party?

17 A. That, I believe, is privileged.

18 Q. Are you the person who has been

19 responsible for filing the disclosure forms with the

20 Secretary of State regarding donations that Ohioans

21 for Liberty has received?

22 A. Ohioans for Liberty or Ohioans for

23 Liberty Inc.?

24 Q. Either one.

25 A. On Ohioans for Liberty, it appears that I




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1 filed the 8872s, the Form 8872.

2 Q. My question though, sir, is regarding

3 disclosures to the Secretary of State of

4 contributions made to Ohioans for Liberty. Are you

5 the person who has been responsible for making those

6 filings?

7 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Can I ask

8 counsel to come up again for a moment?

9 (Bench conference.)

10 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Tigges.


12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 Q. (By Mr. Tigges) Is there any

14 relationship between Ohioans for Liberty and the

15 Libertarian Party of Ohio to your knowledge?

16 A. I believe that to be privileged.

17 Q. So there is a relationship and you can't

18 disclose it or there is no relationship?

19 A. It's privileged and I can't answer the

20 question either way.

21 Q. Well, your answer suggests there is in

22 fact a relationship; that's what I'm trying to get

23 at. Do you know there to be a relationship that you

24 can't disclose the details about or is there no

25 relationship at all?




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1 A. My answer suggests nothing other than

2 that I am unresponsive.

3 Q. Well, I believe you have to respond, sir.

4 MR. MCTIGUE: I'm sorry, Mr. Hearing

5 Officer. Can I have a moment?

6 HEARING OFFICER: Yes. Yes. I'm going

7 to give Mr. McTigue a moment to talk to his client.


9 Q. (By Mr. Tigges) To your knowledge, sir,

10 is there any relationship between Ohioans for Liberty

11 and the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

12 A. No.

13 Q. To your knowledge have there been any

14 communications between Ohioans for Liberty and the

15 Libertarian Party of Ohio regarding the Earl and

16 Clark petitions?

17 A. Communications with the Libertarian

18 Party?

19 Q. Or persons affiliated with it, yes.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. I think we have a stipulation to

22 this effect, but you are in fact a registered

23 Democrat.

24 A. I voted in the last Democratic primary

25 election.




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1 MR. MCTIGUE: There's a stipulation.

2 Q. If you would look at Exhibit 37, sir.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Do you recognize this as a Form 14 that

5 you caused to be filed with the Secretary of State's

6 office?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. You filed this on behalf of Ohioans for

9 Liberty?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In what capacity did you cause this to be

12 filed on behalf of OFL?

13 A. As their attorney.

14 Q. And this form reports that Ohioans for

15 Liberty will compensate someone for supervising,

16 managing, or organizing an effort to obtain

17 signatures for Mr. Earl?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Why did you file this?

20 A. Because Ohioans for Liberty was going to

21 compensate an individual or entity related to the

22 petition.

23 Q. And did Ohioans for Liberty in fact

24 compensate anyone for supervising, managing, or

25 organizing an effort to collect signatures for




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1 Mr. Earl?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who?


5 Q. Who you paid compensation to is

6 privileged?

7 A. That hasn't become a public record.

8 MR. TIGGES: May I approach the witness,

9 your Honor?


11 Q. I've handed you what's marked as Exhibit

12 P-36. That's a check drawn on the account of Ohioans

13 for Liberty Inc., paid to The Strategy Network, dated

14 January 28th, 2014 for $12,000, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this check in fact given to The

17 Strategy Network?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was this check given to The Strategy

20 Network for purposes of collecting signatures for

21 Mr. Earl?


23 Q. Based on what, sir? Who did you

24 communicate with regarding this check that makes

25 everything you know about it privileged?




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1 MR. DEMARCO: I need to admonish the

2 witness to respect the privilege of the -- of my

3 client.

4 THE WITNESS: I think --

5 MR. MCTIGUE: Mr. Hearing Officer --


7 MR. MCTIGUE: -- just to correct the

8 record, I know we've had this discussion on

9 conference calls. The law firm, McTigue and

10 McGinnis, had two clients, one, The Strategy Network

11 and the other Ohioans for Liberty Inc. And any

12 communications between the law firm and the

13 representative of either of those organizations at

14 the time we believe is attorney-client privilege.

15 We have produced the documents, in other

16 words, the bank records that were requested under the

17 subpoena, you know, based on the conference call we

18 had.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Let me ask a few of

20 these points here quickly. As I indicated to counsel

21 here at the bench, in my view most of these

22 communications do not meet the attorney-client

23 privilege at least without some further evidence as

24 to why they would meet the attorney-client privilege

25 which might have to be reviewed in camera or




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1 otherwise.

2 Again, this is not an Article III court,

3 and the practical matter is the time frame. If the

4 witness is going to invoke attorney-client privilege

5 and decline to answer, we're going to be limited in

6 the ability to act on a timely basis.

7 I have no reason to believe that the

8 witness is invoking attorney-client privilege in bad

9 faith. I guess we can take that as an admonishment

10 that, as you well know, you can't invoke it in a

11 good-faith belief that it's correct. But at this

12 point I'm not sure that there's a lot more that as a

13 practical matter we can do if that is going to be the

14 implication. Again I've expressed my opinion to

15 counsel here, but time wise there's simply not much

16 we can do.

17 I would add though, once again, the

18 informal nature of this hearing allows us to operate

19 with a bit more leeway than a court. We have a

20 number of documents that would seem to indicate, at

21 least be somewhat probative I should say, of the

22 point I think the protestors are trying to make, and

23 I have some leeway to draw inferences from those

24 documents and from the implication of privilege.

25 It's not entirely clear to me that at the end of the




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1 day all of this information will be incredibly

2 relevant in any case.

3 So, with that, we're simply looking at

4 the practical realities of this type of hearing and

5 the tight time frame under which we have to operate

6 and, you know, I guess to both sides let's answer the

7 questions you think you can and let's not spend the

8 day just arguing over privilege.

9 I would appreciate it, I think, if we

10 just left it here where if the witness wants to

11 invoke the attorney-client privilege, the witness

12 could do that. If you'd like me to specifically rule

13 on any particular claim, I will do that for you,

14 Mr. Tigges. But again, as a practical matter, even

15 if I do, I don't think we're going to be able to get

16 an order on a timely basis. If you really want to do

17 that, we can try, and everybody's going to have to go

18 to court and take a lot of time and I really prefer

19 to avoid that.

20 So, with that, I'll let the two of you

21 continue. And, again, I ask you to answer those

22 questions that you can and to not try to beat a horse

23 until it's dead if it's clear that we're not going to

24 get an answer today. Thank you.

25 MR. TIGGES: Professor Smith, my question




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1 was simply who did he communicate with regarding this

2 check that renders his knowledge, in his mind,

3 privileged. It was simply a question of who he

4 talked to and that is not privileged. I'm entitled

5 to lay the basis for his assertion of privilege to

6 see if there really is any privilege here in the

7 first place.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Typically, in my

9 understanding of the privilege, the fact that people

10 met is not normally privileged.

11 MR. DEMARCO: Except he inserted the

12 words regarding this check.

13 MR. TIGGES: That doesn't make it

14 privileged either, your Honor.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Well, I suppose it

16 might if that reveals the contents of the

17 conversation.

18 Q. (Mr. Tigges) Let me ask it this way:

19 Mr. McGinnis, did you speak to anyone about the

20 payment that's reflected by the check marked as

21 Exhibit P-36?

22 MR. DEMARCO: Same assertion.

23 HEARING OFFICER: Again, the witness is

24 an attorney and the witness should be the one

25 invoking the attorney-client privilege.




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1 I guess, Mr. DeMarco, if you're alleging

2 that your client Strategy Network --

3 MR. DEMARCO: My privilege --

4 HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry, that's

5 right. I was thinking we were with Mr. McTigue here,

6 who I --

7 MR. MCTIGUE: Well, it's also our

8 privilege on behalf of Ohioans for Liberty.

9 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. But he

10 represents Ohioans for Liberty as well, so I think --

11 MR. TIGGES: Your Honor, I don't think

12 they can play this shell game and have everybody hide

13 behind one law firm and then claim it's all

14 privileged.

15 HEARING OFFICER: I tend to agree, but

16 we've talked about the practical realities of what's

17 facing us today.

18 MR. TIGGES: I understand. And I would

19 ask, as your Honor's already noted, we do have a

20 separate subpoena out to Ohioans for Liberty and I

21 would ask that they produce a non-attorney

22 representative here who can answer these questions

23 without having to deal with frivolous objections and

24 that will be our next witness, your Honor.

25 Q. (By Mr. Tigges) Did Ohioans for Liberty




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1 make any payments to Sara Hart to your knowledge,

2 sir?

3 A. Not to my knowledge.

4 Q. What was the source of funds for the

5 payment reflected by Exhibit P-36?

6 A. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. The

7 contributors?

8 Q. Where did the money come from?

9 A. The Ohioans for Liberty Incorporated bank

10 account.

11 Q. And how did it get in there? Where did

12 it come from to get into that bank account?

13 MR. BROWN: Let me -- again, I'm going to

14 ask counsel one more time to come up.

15 (Bench discussion.)


17 your Honor?


19 Q. Let me hand you what's marked as

20 Protestors Exhibit 80.

21 MR. TIGGES: And I'll note for the record

22 this was produced to us by The Strategy Network

23 pursuant to the subpoena.

24 Q. Do you recognize this e-mail chain, sir?

25 A. Yes, I do.




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1 Q. And is this an e-mail chain that pertains

2 to The Strategy Network arranging to circulate

3 petitions on behalf of Mr. Earl?

4 A. This pertains to the Form 14 filings.

5 Q. That's the one we looked at earlier that

6 was filed for the Earl campaign?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And it appears that this was sent from

9 somebody by the name of Seth Dawkins to Ian Smith.

10 Do you see that? Oh, I'm sorry, Ian James.

11 A. Ian James.

12 Q. Who is Seth Dawkins?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You've never met him or corresponded with

15 him?

16 A. Not that I can recall.

17 Q. Did Mr. James forward on to you the

18 petitions for the Libertarian Party candidates that

19 Mr. Dawkins sent to Mr. James?

20 MR. DEMARCO: I admonish the witness not

21 to get into communications with Mr. Ian James.

22 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?

23 Q. Let's make it simpler. In the middle of

24 the page it starts out, on Exhibit 80, on Tuesday

25 January 28th at 4:23, Ian James wrote: "See the




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1 petitions attached in regards to the Circulator

2 Statement." He wrote that to you, did he not?

3 A. He wrote that to me.

4 Q. And those were the petitions that the

5 circulators were going to circulate for the Earl and

6 Clark candidacies?

7 A. I apologize, I can't see what the

8 attachments were that he sent me.

9 Q. Did he send you the petitions for the

10 Earl and Clark candidacies?

11 MR. DEMARCO: I admonish the witness not

12 to get into communications with Mr. James.

13 HEARING OFFICER: Well, at this point, we

14 have documents here. I'm not sure that a privilege

15 can be invoked here as to the question of whether or

16 not these petitions were sent out. We've got a

17 document in which we've got an e-mail saying I've

18 sent petitions to you and they are attached. I think

19 he can answer whether or not they were attached. I

20 don't see how that has anything to do with privilege

21 at this point.

22 MR. DEMARCO: As long as he doesn't get

23 into other communications he may have had with my

24 client that --

25 HEARING OFFICER: No. The question, as I




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1 heard it, was are the petitions -- were the petitions

2 attached.

3 MR. DEMARCO: As long as he's not getting

4 into other communications besides this one.

5 Q. Did Mr. James send you the petitions?

6 A. Yes, there were petitions attached to

7 this.

8 Q. And then you responded: "Originals in

9 blue on my desk." What does that mean?

10 A. The originals refer to the Form 14.

11 Q. And "in blue" means the original ink

12 copies?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And then you say: "Confirm that these

15 line up with what you have." What does that mean?

16 MR. DEMARCO: To the extent that's a

17 communication that he is going to derive his

18 knowledge from other communications with Mr. James in

19 this e-mail, that would be privileged.

20 A. I would say this is privileged.

21 Q. Well, sir, your client produced this

22 document. How can you now claim privilege over it?

23 What's the answer to my question? What did you

24 mean ---

25 MR. DEMARCO: His client is claiming




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1 privilege, sir.

2 MR. TIGGES: I'll move on, your Honor.

3 It's obvious --

4 HEARING OFFICER: Again, I would just

5 state for the record that I think the privilege

6 claims are ill-founded and, you know, if the

7 protestors want it to, we could seek to force

8 answers, but again it's a practical matter as to the

9 protestors and we discussed that may not be the best

10 course of action for them to take today.

11 Q. Just a few more questions, sir. If you

12 could go back to Exhibit 36, please.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. That's the check.

15 A. Yes, the check.

16 Q. Who signed the check?

17 A. The check is signed by the Donald J.

18 McTigue stamp, signature stamp, it appears.

19 Q. Your law partner?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Does Ohioans for Liberty have any

22 representatives who are not lawyers?

23 A. Representatives?

24 Q. Officers, directors, employees, someone

25 who is not a lawyer who can testify on behalf of the




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1 organization?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Are all of those lawyers with your law

4 firm, the lawyers who would be representatives of

5 Ohioans for Liberty?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. TIGGES: Nothing further, your Honor.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We have a couple

9 things here. Thank you, Mr. Tigges.

10 Mr. Brown, you want to ask some

11 questions?

12 MR. BROWN: Yeah.

13 HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry, I'll let you

14 do cross and then I've got a couple things I want to

15 cover.

16 Mr. Brown, before you start, I don't mean

17 to interrupt, let me ask if we can do one other

18 element here. That is, Mr. Rieser for the protestor

19 for this afternoon has agreed to release

20 Mr. Hatchett, assuming your stipulation that you had

21 earlier agreed to incorporate by reference his

22 previous testimony into the Linnabary proceeding is

23 acceptable. If that's there, if that is still valid?

24 MR. BROWN: Yes.

25 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Then I will ask




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1 if the administrative personnel will go ahead and

2 tell Mr. Hatchett he is free to leave today and thank

3 him very much for his time. You don't want to

4 re-call him at all, Mr. Hatchett at this point?

5 MR. ZEIGER: We do not need to re-call

6 Mr. Hatchett. Thank you.

7 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, please, thank

8 Mr. Hatchett for his time and let him know he can go

9 back to living his life.

10 Mr. Brown, your cross-examination here.

11 - - -


13 By Mr. Brown:

14 Q. Mr. McGinnis, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You are here on behalf of Ohioans for

17 Liberty Incorporated; is that correct?


19 Q. I think you testified to that fact.

20 Did Ohioans for Liberty Incorporated, to

21 your knowledge, employ Oscar Hatchett?


23 Q. Did Ohioans for Liberty -- can I just say

24 "OFL"?





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1 Q. Did OFL employ Sara Hart?


3 Q. Did OHL -- OFL employ Eileen Voorhees?


5 Q. Did OFL employ Samuel Runta, Runta?


7 Q. Did Ohioans for Liberty, OFL, employ

8 Emily Baker?


10 Q. Did Ohioans for Liberty employ Andrew

11 Goldsmith?


13 MR. BROWN: That's all I have. Thank

14 you.


16 Mr. Tigges, brief redirect.


18 - - -


20 By Mr. Tigges:

21 Q. Who did employ Ms. Voorhees to collect

22 signatures for Mr. Earl?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. What about Mr. Runta? Do you know?

25 A. I don't know.




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1 Q. Ms. Baker?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Mr. Goldsmith?

4 A. I don't know.

5 MR. TIGGES: Nothing further.


7 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Mr. Zeiger,

8 Mr. Tigges, let me ask you, it's, what do we have

9 here, about 12:20. How do you folks stand? I'm

10 trying to think what might be a good time to break

11 for lunch.

12 MR. TIGGES: It may be a good time.

13 There's one housekeeping issue here. The witness

14 just testified there are no nonlawyer representatives

15 of Ohioans for Liberty.

16 HEARING OFFICER: Right.

17 MR. TIGGES: Yesterday, on the conference

18 call, Mr. McTigue indicated there was. If there is,

19 we would like that witness here. And so, taking a

20 break now might be appropriate so that that's the

21 time that the witness can travel down to this

22 proceeding. Otherwise, we're ready to keep going or

23 break now. Whatever you want to do, your Honor.

24 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. McTigue,

25 your client is Ohioans for Liberty, they have been




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1 served with a subpoena. Is there any nonlawyer

2 personnel who can honor that subpoena for Ohioans for

3 Liberty?

4 MR. MCTIGUE: I think, for the record, I

5 think the question was whether there are any

6 nonlawyer officers or directors which I believe

7 Mr. McGinnis answered correctly. As I indicated in

8 conference calls that we had, there is a what I would

9 loosely classify as a principal, an individual that

10 we deal with as a representative, he's not an

11 officer, but whether he's available I don't know, I

12 mean I'd have to find out. But we, as a law firm, we

13 deal with an individual who we consider to be

14 principal for the client.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Well, let's try

16 to get that person down here, but I again, you know,

17 I do ask the protestors to think about how central

18 this is to your case. There's a lot of documentary

19 evidence and I'm -- again, what I'm interested in,

20 what I understood you in your opening remarks to say

21 was the case was that certain petitioners were

22 members of the Democratic Party rather than the

23 Libertarian Party or at least were not members of the

24 Libertarian Party, maybe that was the statement, and

25 I'm not sure that going back up through this chain of




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1 financing really proves anything one way or the other

2 as to the status of these petitioners.

3 Now, I'm letting some of this information

4 come in because it's my general disposition to just

5 let information come in, but I think that a lot of

6 what we're producing here is cumulative and probably

7 not as dispositive as other information that has

8 already been elucidated in this hearing or that might

9 be further elucidated when those witnesses are put on

10 the stand. So do you really want to try to call down

11 this person? Do you think you are going to get more

12 information through him that will be helpful to you?

13 MR. TIGGES: Yes, your Honor. It will be

14 a brief witness, but there are areas where there were

15 facts that were not available for this record because

16 of the false implication of privilege and we need to

17 put on that witness.

18 By the way, your Honor, my questions were

19 not nonlawyer, officer, or director; it was

20 nonlawyer, director, employee, representative, anyone

21 who can speak for the organization. And it's

22 troubling that this witness said no, and his law

23 partner now stands up and said oh, there is in fact

24 somebody. But it will be a brief witness. I can't

25 imagine more than 10 or 15 minutes unless we have




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1 this repeat performance of all these objections.

2 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Well, I

3 would ask that we try to get someone down here who

4 can honor the subpoena for Ohioans for Liberty.

5 I'm going to excuse this witness for now.

6 Thank you, Mr. McGinnis.


8 HEARING OFFICER: And we will reconvene

9 at 1:30, so a short lunch break, because again we've

10 got a lot yet to do. All right?

11 MR. ZEIGER: If we could just be clear,

12 we would like to reserve the right to re-call

13 Mr. McGinnis.

14 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, we have the right

15 to re-call Mr. McGinnis.

16 We're adjourned until 1:30.

17 (At 12:25 p.m. a lunch recess was taken

18 until 1:30 p.m.)

19 - - -

20 HEARING OFFICER: All right. We'll call

21 back to order this hearing on the protests on the

22 candidacies of Earl and Clark after a recess for

23 lunch. And we will continue with the protestors

24 presenting their case. Mr. Zeiger or Mr. Tigges.

25 MR. TIGGES: Thank you, your Honor. The




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1 protestors would call the nonlawyer representative of

2 Ohioans for Liberty.

3 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. At this point is

4 that individual here? We don't know that person is

5 not here to our knowledge, is he, Mr. Christopher?

6 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I think we better check

7 on that one.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Is that person here?

9 Mr. Colombo, I see you're here.

10 MR. COLOMBO: Yes.

11 HEARING OFFICER: Are we going to see

12 that person today?

13 MR. COLOMBO: Professor Smith, Don

14 McTigue, another attorney in this office, is trying

15 to reach him. Don is on his way to Youngstown. So

16 we're trying to get him here. In the meantime, we

17 would propose having Mr. McGinnis return to the

18 stand, he's also a representative of this entity, and

19 has refreshed his recollection on some of the

20 financial records. We believe that he would, you

21 know, be able to answer questions. And if those

22 weren't satisfactory, we could have -- try to get

23 that representative here this afternoon.

24 HEARING OFFICER: Well, it's not a

25 question of recollection, it's a question of whether




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1 we're going to have the privilege invoked over and

2 over and we don't want to waste time on that. If we

3 think we might be able to move forward, I'm happy to

4 do that. Would we be able to move forward here?

5 Do you want to give it a try, Mr. Tigges?

6 MR. TIGGES: Your Honor, we heard this

7 morning what their position is on the privilege. I

8 don't agree with it. I don't believe your Honor

9 agrees with it. But we have a time crunch here and

10 we need to move forward. I would ask if you could

11 have either Mr. McGinnis or Mr. Colombo identify for

12 the record who this man of mystery is, so we know who

13 we're waiting for, and if that person shows up, and

14 he should, because he is subpoenaed, then we'll

15 question him.

16 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Colombo, can you

17 give us the name of who it is we're trying to wait

18 on?

19 MR. COLOMBO: Yes. And we provided that

20 name when we returned after break. It's William

21 DeMora, he's a consultant.

22 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Maybe I'll

23 just go ahead, again I love the informal nature of

24 these proceedings, and I can ask Mr. McGinnis back

25 there: In terms of the privilege, do you think




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1 there's been any change on anything that you've

2 reconsidered as to whether you can properly invoke

3 privilege?

4 MR. MCGINNIS: Yes, sir. I do want to

5 answer financial questions and to look at the

6 documents again, subject only on the privilege to the

7 privileges asserted by The Strategy Network.

8 HEARING OFFICER: I'll leave it up to you

9 if you want to give it a try or if you want to go on

10 and call the next witness and we'll see if Mr. DeMora

11 comes in later?

12 MR. TIGGES: I think it's a more

13 effective use of our time to await for someone who

14 can't invoke the privilege. If we get to the end of

15 the day and that person has not honored the subpoena,

16 then we can revisit the question of Mr. McGinnis.

17 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Well, let's

18 proceed in that order. Thank you, Mr. Kemps and

19 Mr. McGinnis -- Mr. Colombo and Mr. McGinnis, getting

20 my own students' names wrong.

21 I'll ask you then if you want to go ahead

22 and call your next witness and, again, if Mr. DeMora

23 makes his appearance, I'll let you decide where you

24 want to fit him in to the bracket of things.

25 Mr. Zeiger.




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1 MR. ZEIGER: Professor Smith, we could

2 call, at this point, Eileen Voorhees. We understand,

3 from the Secretary of State's office, that she has in

4 fact been subpoenaed to be here today and that there

5 is an affirmative return of service. I know that's

6 being copied at the present time and we, upon

7 receiving it, will move it into the record. I don't

8 know if she is here or not. There was some

9 suggestion yesterday she might not be.

10 HEARING OFFICER: My understanding is

11 that we do have a return of service on her. Do we

12 know if she's here?

13 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I don't think so, but I

14 think I will doublecheck.

15 MR. ZEIGER: And why don't you, at the

16 same time, in case, just to save an extra trip, if

17 Eileen Voorhees is not here, would you ask Emily

18 Baker to come up.


20 HEARING OFFICER: All right. So if we

21 don't have Ms. Voorhees, we will go with Ms. Baker.

22 MR. DEMARCO: While we're waiting, can I

23 address something we talked about yesterday?

24 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, do you want to do

25 it here at the bench or --




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1 MR. DEMARCO: Yes. Just for privacy

2 reasons.

3 (Bench discussion.)


5 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Who do we have

6 here? You are?

7 MS. BAKER: Emily Baker.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Emily Baker.

9 That indicates then to me that Ms. Voorhees is

10 apparently not here at this time.

11 So, Ms. Baker, thank you. I will ask the

12 court reporter to swear you in.

13 (Witness sworn.)

14 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Zeiger.


16 - - -

17 EMILY BAKER




21 By Mr. Zeiger:

22 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. You are Emily Baker?

25 A. Correct.




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1 Q. And, Ms. Baker, with whom are you

2 employed?

3 A. I'm employed by The Strategy Network.

4 Q. All right. What is The Strategy Network?

5 A. They're a company that puts political

6 issues on the ballots.

7 Q. Who are the senior executives of The

8 Strategy Network?

9 A. Steve Latourneau and Ian James.

10 Q. And based upon -- strike that.

11 How long have you been employed there?

12 A. Eight months or so.

13 Q. Where were you employed previously?

14 A. Starbucks.

15 Q. Any other employment prior to that?

16 A. How long do you want me to list? I

17 mean --

18 Q. Let me rephrase the question then. Have

19 you been employed by a consulting firm of the nature

20 of Strategy Network previously?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Have you been employed by the Democratic

23 Party or any of its affiliates previously?

24 A. Nope.

25 Q. What is the nature of your duties at




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1 Strategy Network?

2 A. I do whatever they need me to do. I

3 clean, I data entry, I collect signatures.

4 Q. All right. Other than for the

5 Libertarian candidates for Governor and Lieutenant

6 Governor, have you collected other signatures for

7 candidates?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And has that been during the eight months

10 you've been employed at Strategy Network?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. All right. Can you identify for me each

13 of the other candidates for whom you have collected

14 signatures?

15 MR. DEMARCO: We have taken the position

16 that anything outside of the scope of the inquiry is

17 subject to the associational privilege.

18 HEARING OFFICER: That's overruled.

19 That's overruled. That's -- I think that's malarkey.

20 Go ahead, Counselor.

21 MR. DEMARCO: I need to be able to advise

22 the witness and I will advise the witness. If you

23 would like me to approach or if you would like me to

24 put it on the record, I'll --

25 HEARING OFFICER: You can put it on the




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1 record if you want. This is at a point where I would

2 probably recommend, although we can't really get

3 anything in terms of this hearing, that we proceed to

4 seek contempt. There is no associational right of a

5 non-attorney in this situation not to talk about her

6 job which is precisely at issue in this case.

7 MR. DEMARCO: Well, then, if you will

8 just allow me to speak to the record.


10 MR. DEMARCO: We challenge the authority

11 of the Hearing Officer to conduct this hearing.

12 Under section 3513.05 it requires the Secretary of

13 State to hear this matter. The Secretary of State is

14 not hearing this matter. We don't --

15 HEARING OFFICER: Good luck with that

16 challenge.

17 MR. DEMARCO: May I be allowed to

18 complete my statement?

19 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, you may, but I

20 will be free to speak when I feel it's appropriate.

21 MR. DEMARCO: Okay.

22 HEARING OFFICER: You are, Mr. DeMarco,

23 to be frank, testing my patience in the extreme,

24 which I think may be obvious here.

25 MR. DEMARCO: Okay. We know of no




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1 statutory authority that allows the -- Professor

2 Smith to fulfill this duty in place of the Secretary

3 of State. That leads us to the conclusion that the

4 Secretary of State was not authorized to compel my

5 clients to appear and answer questions against their

6 will. So we will be asserting the privilege and we

7 will be advising our clients of what they need to do

8 to --


10 Mr. DeMarco, I'm not going to allow you, I think, to

11 object further. You're not a party to this case.

12 This is a public hearing. I do not take objections

13 here. Your client has heard your objection and --

14 but, I just don't even know how to respond to this at

15 this point.

16 Mr. Tigges, if you want to go ahead and

17 try whatever questions you can. If the witness

18 refuses to answer, she refuses to answer. But I am,

19 again, recognizing the difficulty of getting anything

20 that would help us get testimony in time, on a timely

21 basis for this hearing. I, nonetheless, may

22 recommend that we attempt to take some action at this

23 point because I do think there's an absurdity at this

24 point.

25 MR. DEMARCO: I just want to be clear,




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1 I'm not going to be permitted to advise my client or

2 even consult with my client.

3 HEARING OFFICER: Well, at this point you

4 are not an attorney of record in this hearing. You

5 have advised your client, I think, before she has

6 taken the stand, and so she can make the decisions

7 based on the advice that you have given to her. But

8 I don't need to allow you to object during the course

9 of this hearing.

10 MR. DEMARCO: Okay.

11 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Zeiger, if you want

12 to try to continue, I'll let you do that.


14 Q. (By Mr. Zeiger) I'm going to come back to

15 the question that's pending, but would ask that you

16 turn to Exhibit 60 in the notebook there in front of

17 you, and if in fact you need some assistance with

18 that I'll be glad to come over and show you what I am

19 talking about.

20 A. I think I can see No. 60. Okay.

21 Q. That is a Declaration of Candidacy that

22 you personally circulated, the first page of Exhibit

23 60?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And indeed the second page of Exhibit 60




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1 is also a Declaration of Candidacy that you

2 personally circulated.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. All right. You mentioned earlier that

5 you have circulated petitions on behalf of other

6 candidates since you were employed at Strategy

7 Network.

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Were they identical, other than the

10 candidate name and candidate information, to the form

11 that is Exhibit P-60?

12 A. Not particularly. I mean there was a

13 place where they sign and their address and

14 everything, but.

15 Q. All right. And were those petitions then

16 subsequently filed as part of the candidacy of

17 candidates for public office?


19 Q. All right. So they are public records,

20 to your knowledge, with either the Board of Elections

21 of a particular county or the Secretary of State of

22 Ohio?

23 A. To my knowledge, yes.

24 Q. All right. Again, I would ask the

25 question that was pending previously and that is




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1 would you identify for me each such candidate for

2 whom you circulated petitions since joining Strategy

3 Network?

4 A. I do not know those off the top of my

5 head.

6 Q. You don't know the name of the candidates

7 for whom you personally sought signatures?

8 A. I would respectfully decline to answer

9 that question.

10 Q. On what basis?

11 A. I don't think it really pertains.

12 HEARING OFFICER: All right. We're going

13 to take -- I'll give you a few minutes recess. I'd

14 like to keep this brief. I'll set a time limit on

15 it. Mr. DeMarco, I will let you confer with your

16 client. As you see, I'm just flabbergasted that

17 you're making this objection. I think, personally if

18 I can say this, I think you may be getting your

19 client into some real trouble if she's not prepared

20 to answer questions. These questions are answered in

21 courts across this country every single day in a wide

22 variety of settings, totally unrelated to ballot

23 access, related to ballot access, and everything.

24 I have signed and authorized, myself, in

25 past positions, subpoenas for exactly this type of




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1 testimony. I've never seen one successfully

2 resisted. It appears to me that you are clearly

3 attempting to run out the clock by preventing the

4 protestors from putting on evidence which they

5 believe would be helpful to their case.

6 With that, though, I will allow you to

7 confer with your client about her legal obligations,

8 but then I will not allow you to object during the

9 course of the proceeding. So I'll give you, let's

10 take a few-minute break, you can confer, you may

11 confer privately if you would like, and then we'll

12 put her back up on the stand and we'll see what we

13 can do from there. Thank you.

14 We'll take a brief recess.

15 (Recess taken.)

16 HEARING OFFICER: We'll call this back

17 into session here.

18 MR. DEMARCO: I would suggest you re-ask

19 the question.

20 HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Baker has conferred

21 with her attorney and, Mr. Zeiger, I would turn

22 things back over to you.


24 Q. (By Mr. Zeiger) Ms. Baker, please

25 identify for me each other candidate for whom you




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1 have circulated petitions that were subsequently

2 filed with a public office for election to a public

3 office in the state of Ohio or any of its

4 governmental subdivisions since you joined Strategy

5 Network.

6 A. I've circulated petitions for Mr. Earl,

7 the other Libertarian candidates that were up for

8 getting on the ballot, and those are the only

9 candidates that I have circulated for.

10 Q. Okay. Prior to joining Strategy Network,

11 have you circulated such petitions?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So the only ones you've ever circulated

14 are the ones you've just described.

15 A. For candidates, correct. I've circulated

16 for issues but not for candidates.

17 Q. All right. Do you know a lady by the

18 name of Eileen Voorhees?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. And who is Ms. Voorhees?

21 A. She's also an employee of The Strategy

22 Network.

23 Q. All right. And was she an employee of

24 The Strategy Network at all times since you joined

25 The Strategy Network eight months ago?




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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what is her position with The

3 Strategy Network?

4 A. I don't know her title.

5 Q. If the website indicated director, would

6 that be consistent with your understanding?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. All right. Did you have occasion to be

9 with Eileen Voorhees in Cincinnati on or about

10 January 20th of this year?

11 A. I was with Eileen for one event. I do

12 not remember the date.

13 Q. All right. What event was that?

14 A. We were circulating petitions for another

15 issue.

16 Q. All right. And did you have occasion to

17 meet a gentleman by the name of David Pepper at that

18 time?

19 A. I believe he was there. I do not believe

20 I met him.

21 Q. All right. Did you have occasion to sign

22 Mr. Pepper's petition that day in Cincinnati?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. I'd like you to turn to

25 Exhibit P-67 in the book, please.




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1 A. Okay.

2 Q. You had occasion to read the petition

3 prior to signing it?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. All right. And so you knew that you were

6 representing, as you signed it, that you were a

7 member of the Democratic Party as related in the, I

8 guess that would be the fourth line under the

9 Petition for Candidate section at the bottom of the

10 document?

11 A. To my understanding, since I have not

12 voted in a primary over the last two years for any

13 particular party, I am therefore affiliated with any

14 party of the document that I sign.

15 Q. You know, if we could have an answer to

16 my questions rather than questions that might be

17 asked to you by other counsel, I would appreciate it.

18 Make the process move along a lot more expeditiously.

19 Did you in fact read and understand that

20 you were representing yourself to be a member of the

21 Democratic Party when you signed that petition on

22 January 20th, 2014?

23 A. That particular time, yes.

24 Q. All right. And you understood that you

25 were making that representation under the penalty of




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1 election falsification, did you not?

2 A. Can I please confer with my attorney?

3 Q. That is up to the Chair.

4 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, you may briefly

5 confer.


7 MR. BROWN: If I might, your Honor, while

8 they're doing a little conference here, I'd like to

9 continue the objection on relevance grounds. I'm not

10 sure exactly what this line of testimony proves

11 relative to LPO's case other than embarrassing this

12 poor witness.

13 HEARING OFFICER: I understand your

14 point. Again, I'm going to let this evidence in

15 because its relevance it seems to me ultimately

16 hinges on a determination of law in this case that,

17 and even regardless of my own determination, could be

18 helpful to others should this case be reviewed at

19 another level.

20 All right. Ms. Baker is back in the

21 seat, under oath.

22 Mr. Zeiger, do you want to repeat the

23 question?

24 MR. ZEIGER: Yes, ma'am -- yes, sir.

25 Q. (By Mr. Zeiger) Ms. Baker, you understood




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1 when you signed this petition you were indicating you

2 were a Democrat, a member of the Democratic Party,

3 and that you were signing it under the penalty of

4 election falsification, correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. I notice that there is a -- well, strike

7 that.

8 What is your address, please?

9 A. I just recently moved. Which one do you

10 want?

11 Q. Why don't we have the one that was your

12 address on January 20th. Thank you for being helpful

13 with that.

14 A. 1418 Bryden Road.

15 Q. All right. And is it fair to say that on

16 Exhibit P-67, the third line down on the front page,

17 was your signature and your address placed by you

18 there on January 20th, knowing that Mr. Pepper was a

19 Democratic candidate?

20 A. The one that's crossed out?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yeah. Correct.

23 Q. All right. Let's go to one immediately

24 above that.

25 A. Okay.




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1 Q. Do you know whose signature that is?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Are you aware that Eileen

4 Voorhees resides at 4105 Heyward, Cincinnati, Ohio?

5 A. I did not know that was her address.

6 Q. You were aware, however, that she was

7 present and signing the petition at the same time you

8 were in Cincinnati, correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And again that is a petition that states

11 that the signatories are members of the Democratic

12 Party, correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. There's a strike-through in the third

15 line with your signature because you reside in

16 Franklin County, correct?

17 A. Yes, I realized the mistake.

18 Q. All right. You were the one that

19 realized that.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Okay. And in fact as soon as you signed

22 the document, did you realize the mistake or was it

23 sometime subsequent to that?

24 A. It was just a few minutes after that.

25 Q. All right. And so you were the one who




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1 drew the line, striking it through.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. All right. Well, then, let's take a look

4 at Exhibit 61, if we may. That is another petition

5 for candidacy of David Pepper as a Democratic

6 candidate for Attorney General, correct?

7 A. Correct. The correct county.

8 Q. The correct county. This is a Franklin

9 County petition.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. All right. And you are the first

12 signatory to that petition.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Again, knowing that you were

15 representing, under penalty of election

16 falsification, that you were a member of the

17 Democratic Party.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. So you signed not one but two

20 petitions for Mr. Pepper under penalty of election

21 falsification.

22 A. One crossed out, recognizing an error.

23 Q. All right. You had indicated previously

24 that a number of -- well, strike that.

25 Is Mr. Ian James the senior executive of




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1 The Strategy Network?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. To your knowledge has he indicated to you

4 that he is a supporter and member of the Democratic

5 Party of Ohio?

6 A. I mean my assumption would be yes.

7 Q. And that'd be based upon everything you

8 see in the office and in your conversations with

9 Mr. James? Yes?

10 A. I mean --

11 MR. DEMARCO: This was subject to the

12 stipulation. We entered into stipulation.

13 MR. ZEIGER: I'm asking about this

14 witness's knowledge.

15 MR. DEMARCO: Fine.

16 A. Am I assuming by looking at something?

17 I've never really had a direct conversation about

18 what party he --

19 Q. Let me withdraw the question and

20 rephrase.

21 You understand Ian James to be a

22 prominent Democrat, do you not?

23 A. Yes, with the issues that I've

24 circulated.

25 Q. And in fact did you mention




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1 Mr. Latourneau as one of the senior executives?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And he is also a prominent Democrat, is

4 he not?

5 A. I assume.

6 Q. That's your understanding.

7 A. My assumption, yes.

8 Q. Okay. And in fact the company, Strategy

9 Network, does a lot of counseling for Democratic

10 candidates and Democratic issues, does it not?

11 A. As well as other things, correct.

12 Q. All right. Have you had occasion to

13 discuss with Eileen Voorhees her political

14 affiliation?

15 A. No, I never have.

16 Q. All right. Are you a Democrat?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. All right. Are you an Independent?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you a member of any political -- do

21 you have any political affiliation?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And indeed have never had a political

24 affiliation of any kind including membership with the

25 Libertarian Party of Ohio, correct?




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1 A. Like I said before, I am under the

2 understanding --

3 Q. I didn't ask your understanding. I asked

4 you if you have ever had a political affiliation or

5 membership in the Libertarian Party of Ohio.

6 A. Membership, no. Circulating the

7 Libertarian candidate, I am therefore affiliated with

8 the Libertarian candidate.

9 Q. Well, let's be clear on that. You are

10 relying on a statutory provision or presumption,

11 we'll leave that for Professor Smith to resolve, that

12 says that if you're not affiliated in any way with

13 the Libertarian Party you still could circulate

14 petitions; is that correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. All right. Putting that assumption on

17 your part that that is appropriate aside, you've

18 never been a member of the Libertarian Party, have

19 you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And indeed you have never been affiliated

22 in any way with the Libertarian Party other than by

23 circulating the petitions that you previously

24 described, correct?

25 A. Correct.




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1 Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of

2 Seth Dawkins?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Who was it that asked you to circulate

5 petitions on behalf of the Libertarian candidates?

6 A. Ian James.

7 Q. All right. Did he tell you that was part

8 of your employment duties with Strategy Network?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. Did you understand that he

11 was asking you to do that in that context?

12 A. I volunteered for it. I did not get

13 paid.

14 Q. You volunteered for it, but you did not

15 get paid.

16 A. It was not in my duties. I -- I did not

17 get paid for circulating the petitions.

18 Q. Would you turn with me to Exhibit 60,

19 please. Your testimony under oath is you were not

20 compensated for circulating petitions for Libertarian

21 candidates.

22 A. The total of three signatures that I

23 received took about a total of two and a half minutes

24 to collect.

25 Q. That wasn't my question. My question is




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1 your testimony under oath is you were not compensated

2 for getting those signatures on those two petitions?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No, you were not compensated?

5 A. I work for The Strategy Network, but I

6 did not get compensated for gathering those

7 signatures.

8 Q. And it was not part of your employment

9 duties to gather them is that your testimony? Now,

10 you said earlier it was part of your employment

11 duties to gather signatures. Is it now your

12 testimony it was not part of your employment to

13 gather those signatures?

14 A. It's my choice whether or not I want.

15 They're not going to fire me if I decide not to

16 circulate a petition.

17 Q. Was it part of your employment duties to

18 gather the signatures, yes or no, please.

19 Your counsel can't answer the question

20 for you, ma'am.

21 THE WITNESS: Can I confer with my

22 counsel?

23 HEARING OFFICER: I think you should

24 answer the question at this point. You should know

25 the answer if this was a part of your employment




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1 duties or not.

2 A. I've not read anywhere particular that

3 lays out my employment duties, but part of my job is

4 to circulate petitions.

5 Q. So it was one of your employment duties

6 to circulate these two petitions we've marked as

7 Exhibit 60. Is that your final answer?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you look at the second page, the

10 back of the front page of the first Declaration of

11 Candidacy under tab 60.

12 A. The back of the front page?

13 Q. Yes, please.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. That's your signature down in the

16 left-hand corner?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And who was it that filled in that you

19 were a member of the Libertarian Party?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. You printed the word "Libertarian" there?

22 A. I believe so.

23 Q. All right. You were not given a petition

24 that had that previously filled in?

25 A. No.




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1 Q. And who was it that placed the stamp in

2 the right-hand box on that page?

3 A. I have no idea.

4 Q. It wasn't you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And in fact you would agree that there is

7 an indication there that the person employing you to

8 circulate this petition was The Strategy Network.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And that's true of the other petition as

11 well.

12 A. Correct.

13 MR. ZEIGER: I have nothing further.

14 Thank you, Ms. Baker, for your cooperation.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Ms. Baker.

16 Mr. Brown, do you want to question?

17 - - -


19 By Mr. Brown:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Baker.

21 A. Hi.

22 Q. Just a couple of small questions.

23 Have you ever voted in the previous two

24 calendar years in any party primary?

25 A. No.




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1 Q. You did testify that you circulated

2 part-petitions for LPO candidates. To your knowledge

3 did you ever circulate part-petitions for Steven

4 Linnabary?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You reported that The Strategy Network

7 was your employer on the part-petitions that you

8 filed on behalf of Charles Earl; is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Are you employed by Strategy Network?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are you paid on an hourly basis?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you testified that one of your

15 employment duties was to gather signatures for


17 A. (Witness nods.)

18 THE COURT REPORTER: Is that a "yes,"

19 ma'am?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry.

21 Q. So your employer statement on your

22 petitions for Mr. Earl is correct.

23 A. Correct.

24 MR. BROWN: I have no further questions,

25 your Honor.




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178

1 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Brown.

2 Anything further?

3 MR. ZEIGER: Nothing. Thank you.

4 HEARING OFFICER: Ms. Baker, thank you,

5 you may step down. You are excused.

6 MR. ZEIGER: We would reserve the right

7 to re-call her.

8 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Ms. Baker,

9 they've reserved the right to re-call, so the

10 subpoena is still in effect. We'd appreciate it if

11 you would remain on the premises, put you back in our

12 waiting room, and a reminder that you're not to talk

13 to other witnesses about your testimony here while

14 this hearing is in session.

15 Okay. Mr. Zeiger.

16 MR. ZEIGER: Andrew Goldsmith, please.

17 HEARING OFFICER: Andrew Goldsmith.


19 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We have Andrew

20 Goldsmith here. Mr. Goldsmith, before we swear you

21 in, which we will do in a minute, I'll ask you,

22 without revealing the contents of these discussions

23 at all, have you spoken with an attorney before

24 appearing today about testifying, without revealing

25 any more contents than that?




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1 MR. GOLDSMITH: Yes, I have.

2 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All right. I do

3 want to note at this point for the record, in light

4 of some of the objections that have been raised under

5 3599.37 of the Revised Code, it is clear that "No

6 person having been subpoenaed or ordered to appear

7 before grand jury, court, board, or officer in a

8 proceeding or prosecution upon a complaint,

9 information, affidavit, or indictment for an offense

10 under election law shall do either of the following:

11 1) Fail to appear or, having appeared,

12 refuse to answer a question pertinent to the matter

13 under inquiry or investigation." Then there are

14 further provisions dealing with production of

15 documents and the penalties would specify that it is

16 a misdemeanor of the first degree.

17 I will ask, Mr. Goldsmith, for the

18 reporter to swear you in at this point.

19 (Witness sworn.)

20 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Zeiger.


22 - - -

23 ANDREW GOLDSMITH






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2 By Mr. Zeiger:

3 Q. Sir, please state your name for the

4 record.

5 A. Andrew Goldsmith.

6 Q. And what is your address, Mr. Goldsmith?

7 A. 1611 Bryden Road, Columbus, Ohio 43205.

8 Q. Okay. Are you an intern with Strategy

9 Network?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. How long have you been an intern with


13 A. January.

14 Q. Of this year?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. From the 1st of January?

17 A. I believe it was the 13th. It was

18 whenever my school semester started.

19 Q. All right. Are you currently enrolled in

20 school?

21 A. I am.

22 Q. Where?

23 A. Ohio University.

24 Q. Have you had any employment, other than

25 your university experience, prior to starting this




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181

1 internship?

2 A. With The Strategy Network or --

3 Q. Well, start with that, that's a good

4 question.

5 A. No, I've never had any affiliation with

6 The Strategy Network prior to my internship.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. But in regards to just my general work

9 history, I have been employed since I was 15.

10 Q. All right. And those have been basically

11 typical youth jobs?

12 A. Yeah, yeah. Definitely nothing out of

13 the ordinary.

14 Q. Are you involved in political issues at

15 Ohio University?

16 A. I'm not.

17 Q. All right. Have you worked on any

18 political campaigns?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Never. How was it that you came to be

21 affiliated with The Strategy Network?

22 A. Emily Baker is a friend of mine who is an

23 employee for TSN and I was looking for an internship

24 for school. It seemed like it would work out well

25 working with some friends -- or, a friend.




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1 Q. Good.

2 Were you requested in late January to

3 circulate petitions on behalf of the Libertarian

4 candidates for Governor and Lieutenant Governor?

5 A. I don't remember the date, but I was

6 asked to do it, yes, sir.

7 Q. All right. Who asked you to do it?

8 A. Steven Latourneau.

9 Q. Who is Mr. Latourneau?

10 A. He's the COO, I believe, of TSN.

11 Q. All right. And did he indicate to you

12 that that was part of your internship?

13 A. Yeah. Yes, sir.

14 Q. All right. And he indicated -- well, let

15 me ask: Is the internship paid or unpaid?

16 A. It's unpaid.

17 Q. Unpaid. So he asked you to circulate the

18 petitions for the Libertarian Party candidates as

19 part of your internship duties with Strategy Network?

20 A. He did, uh-huh.

21 Q. And in fact you did so?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Would you turn to Exhibit No. 55 in that

24 big book in front of you?

25 A. Yes, sir. Oh, I'm sorry, let's try that




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1 again. Got it. Sorry about that.

2 Q. Let me -- this is in fact a Declaration

3 of Candidacy that you circulated?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. If you'll flip over to the back of the

6 single page of the paper.

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Is that your signature down in the

9 left-hand corner?

10 A. It is indeed. Very sloppy, but yes.

11 Q. And the address printed there is printed

12 by you?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And the box on the right was filled out

15 by you?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. All right. Did Mr. Latourneau or someone

18 else tell you to fill it out that way?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. You made that decision on your own.

21 A. To fill out the --

22 Q. The box.

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. That's who I was circulating it for, is




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1 that not correct?

2 HEARING OFFICER: You're talking about

3 the box on the lower right of the second page?

4 MR. ZEIGER: Yes, I'm sorry.

5 HEARING OFFICER: Maybe you should

6 approach the witness and point out exactly, because

7 I'm not sure that he's exactly clear that you two are

8 in the same place.

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. That's the one.

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And that's your handwriting in the box on

13 the lower right-hand corner of the back of the

14 petition?

15 A. Yes, sir, it is.

16 Q. All right. And you filled that out

17 yourself?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. And your recollection is you did that on

20 your own initiative?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Sir, do you -- have you ever been a

23 member of the Libertarian Party?

24 A. I'm not a member of any party. I'm

25 unaffiliated.




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185

1 Q. You're unaffiliated. So you're not a

2 member of the Libertarian Party.

3 A. That would be correct.

4 Q. And you're not in any way affiliated with

5 the Libertarian Party other than circulating this one

6 petition.

7 A. I guess that I would be affiliated in the

8 sense I don't have any candidacy with anybody else.

9 Q. All right. The legal issue is for the

10 Hearing Officer to make a decision about.

11 Other than circulating this petition,

12 you've never had any affiliation with the Libertarian

13 Party of any kind, correct?

14 A. With the Libertarians or Democrats or

15 Republicans, correct.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you.

17 You certainly don't consider yourself to

18 be a member of the Libertarian Party in general.

19 A. I don't consider myself to be a member of

20 any party.

21 Q. All right. Thank you.

22 Do you know a lady by the name of Eileen

23 Vorhees?

24 A. I do know Eileen, yes, sir.

25 Q. All right. Is she employed by Strategy




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186

1 Network?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. Is she a director of Strategy Network?

4 A. I don't know what Eileen's position is

5 honestly.

6 Q. All right. Are you aware of her

7 political affiliations?

8 A. I've never really talked to her about

9 political affiliations.

10 Q. All right. So the answer is you are not

11 aware of her --

12 A. I am not aware. Sorry, sir.

13 Q. It's all right.

14 MR. ZEIGER: Nothing further. Thank you.

15 I appreciate you coming.

16 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Zeiger.

17 Mr. Brown.

18 - - -


20 By Mr. Brown:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Goldsmith.

22 A. Hello, sir.

23 Q. Just a couple questions.

24 Have you voted in any party's primary in

25 the preceding two calendar years?




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1 A. I've never voted in any primary.

2 Q. Did you circulate any part-petitions for

3 Steven Linnabary?

4 A. Is he one of the candidates?

5 Q. He is the LPO candidate for Attorney

6 General.

7 A. I don't know that I circulated that

8 petition.

9 Q. You simply circulated -- to your

10 knowledge you simply circulated petitions for Charles

11 Earl for Governor; is that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. You say you were an intern for Strategy

14 Network. Is it your understanding that you were

15 employed by Strategy Network?

16 A. I'm not employed by Strategy Network.

17 MR. BROWN: Okay. I have no further

18 questions.


20 Anything else?




24 Mr. Goldsmith, thank you very much. You may step

25 down.




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188

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. Have

2 a good day.

3 MR. ZEIGER: We would call Samuel Runta.

4 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Colombo, will you

5 step up for a moment while we gather Mr. Runta.


7 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Mr. Runta

8 is here. And you're seated, comfortable and ready to

9 go. I'll ask the reporter to swear you in.

10 - - -

11 SAMUEL RUNTA




15 By Mr. Zeiger:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Runta. Is it Runta?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you please state your full name and

19 address for the record.

20 A. Samuel Runta. And it's 1986 Summit

21 Street, Columbus, Ohio 43201.

22 Q. Thank you, sir.

23 Are you employed?

24 A. I am, yes.

25 Q. Why don't we turn, in that big book there




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189

1 in front of you, there is a series of exhibits and

2 I'd like you to turn to the one under tab 48, if you

3 would, please.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. You see that document, sir?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Is that an accurate representation of

8 your LinkedIn page?

9 A. No.

10 Q. No? All right. Let's go through each

11 item then.

12 A. Wait. Here we go. Sorry, I was on 47.

13 Q. Oh, okay.

14 A. My bad.

15 Q. Take a look at the one that has the

16 little sticker on the right-hand corner that says

17 Exhibit P-48.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. Is that your LinkedIn page?

20 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

21 Q. All right. And that shows that your

22 current employment includes employment as a page for

23 minority leader Armond Budish at the Ohio House of

24 Representatives?

25 A. That's not updated. I'm now just working




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190

1 with the minority caucus.

2 Q. All right. And by "minority" you mean

3 the Democratic members of the House of

4 Representatives.

5 A. That caucus.

6 Q. That caucus.

7 All right. And prior to that you were a

8 page for the Democratic leader of the House of

9 Representatives, Mr. Budish.

10 A. Yes, briefly, for a couple of months.

11 Q. All right. And you have also been

12 involved in Democratic campaigns, have you not?

13 A. That's true.

14 Q. All right. One of them was for Maureen

15 Reedy?

16 A. Absolutely.

17 Q. All right. And what was your position

18 with that campaign?

19 A. I was just a volunteer and we decided

20 that it would be an internship.

21 Q. With her?

22 A. With her.

23 Q. All right. And what position was she

24 elected to that provided the internship?

25 A. She was not elected to any position. She




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1 lost the election.

2 Q. I see. But you were an intern with her

3 campaign?

4 A. With her campaign.

5 Q. All right. And, again, she was a

6 Democratic Party candidate.

7 A. That's true.

8 Q. All right. You've also been involved in

9 other campaigns for Democratic Party candidates.

10 A. That's true.

11 Q. And, in addition, you were employed --

12 well, you had duties as a finance intern with the

13 Ohio Democratic Party from June through July of 2013,

14 did you not?

15 A. For one month, yes.

16 Q. And you were also an intern for Lee

17 Fisher for Ohio during June through November of 2010,

18 approximately six months.

19 A. That's true.

20 Q. And Mr. Fisher was a Democratic

21 candidate, was he not?

22 A. That's true.

23 Q. And at that time he was running for

24 United States Senate; is that correct?





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1 Q. So you've been involved on behalf of

2 Democratic Party candidates in quite a number of

3 endeavors for being as young a person as you are,

4 correct?

5 A. I suppose.

6 Q. All right. Mr. Runta, have you been at

7 any time employed or associated with The Strategy

8 Network?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. All right. When did you first become

11 employed with The Strategy Network?

12 A. I generally just do a few hourly things

13 from time to time. If they need help with extra

14 jobs, maybe data entry or something like that.

15 Q. Okay. When did you first start those

16 responsibilities?

17 A. Summer of 2013.

18 Q. And have had off and on work with The

19 Strategy Network since that time?


21 Q. And you've been paid by The Strategy

22 Network for those duties?


24 Q. All right. Did there come a time when

25 the people at The Strategy Network asked you to




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193

1 circulate petitions on behalf of the Libertarian

2 candidates for Governor and Lieutenant Governor?


4 Q. And who was it that asked you to

5 circulate petitions on behalf of those candidates?

6 A. It was Ian James who did.

7 Q. All right. And you understood that to be

8 part of your employment responsibilities with

9 Strategy Network?

10 A. That was not part of my employment

11 responsibilities. I chose to do so.

12 Q. I'm sorry?

13 A. It was not part of my employment

14 responsibilities. I chose to do that work.

15 Q. All right. And were you paid for those

16 services?

17 A. I was.

18 Q. All right. And you were paid on an

19 hourly basis for those services?

20 A. Per-signature basis.

21 Q. Per-signature basis. All right.

22 Sir, would you -- and when I say "paid,"

23 you were paid by Strategy Network on a per-signature

24 basis for gathering the signatures for the

25 Libertarian Gubernatorial and Lieutenant Governor




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1 candidates, correct, sir?


3 Q. Sir, I'd like you now to turn to Exhibit

4 50 in the book. Take a look at that group of

5 documents and I'll ask you, sir, if those are in fact

6 the petitions you circulated for Charles Earl and

7 Sherry Clark as Libertarian candidates for Governor

8 and Lieutenant Governor respectively?


10 Q. All right. And on the back of each of

11 those pages in the left-hand corner that is your

12 signature and address placed there by you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I see that there's a stamp in the box

15 on the right bottom of each of those petitions that

16 says "The Strategy Network, LLC." Was that something

17 you filled in or was that something Mr. James or one

18 of his staff people filled in for you?

19 A. I filled those in with the -- with the

20 stamp that was placed there.

21 Q. All right. And you did that because you

22 were soliciting these petitions under the employ of



25 Q. It is true, is it not, sir, that you are




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195

1 not and have never been a member of the Libertarian

2 Party?

3 A. That is not true as of now.

4 Q. Okay. Other than solicitation of these

5 petitions, have you ever done anything to indicate

6 membership in the Libertarian Party?

7 A. Other than this, that's also not true.

8 Q. Okay. Are you a member of the Democratic

9 Party?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. Did you have to make indication to

12 Mr. Budish and others to obtain employment with the

13 Democratic caucus that you were a member of the

14 Democratic Party?

15 THE WITNESS: May I consult with my

16 attorney on this?

17 MR. ZEIGER: To me it's an easy question

18 to answer.

19 HEARING OFFICER: No. I think this is a

20 straightforward question. It's not a privileged

21 matter here. You can answer did you make that

22 representation.

23 A. I, at the time, was -- I have been -- I

24 have considered myself in line with Democratic values

25 and I did not make an indication that I -- I did not




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1 make an indication that I was a member of the

2 Democratic Party when I began work with Armond

3 Budish. It was assumed that I would comply with

4 anything they asked me to do because I was under the

5 employ of the House of Representatives.

6 Q. And it was assumed that you were a

7 supporter of the Democratic Party to obtain the

8 position, correct?

9 A. I'm unsure.

10 Q. Sir, when was it that you first -- strike

11 that.

12 What step, if any, did you take, other

13 than circulating the petitions that have been marked

14 as Exhibit P-50, to indicate membership in the


16 A. I have attended multiple events.

17 Q. And when were those events held?

18 A. They were both June of last -- of 2013.

19 Q. And other than that, you have not, at any

20 time, taken any further steps to indicate membership

21 in the Libertarian Party; is that correct?


23 Q. You never told Mr. Budish that you were a

24 member of the Libertarian Party.

25 A. I never met Mr. Budish.




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1 Q. All right. Did you ever tell anybody in

2 the General Assembly in the Democratic caucus that

3 you were a member of the Libertarian Party?

4 A. I did not.

5 Q. All right. Did you tell any of the

6 people who hired you as a finance intern at the Ohio

7 Democratic Party that you were a member of the


9 A. I did not.

10 Q. Did you tell anyone at the Lee Fisher

11 campaign that you were a member of the Libertarian

12 Party?

13 A. At that time I was not a member of the

14 Libertarian Party.

15 Q. So the answer would be no, you didn't; is

16 that correct?


18 Q. Other than your testimony here and

19 anything implicit from the circulation of the

20 petitions at Exhibit 50, have you ever told anyone,

21 other than your testimony here today, that you were a

22 member of the Libertarian Party?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. When did that occur?

25 A. In a conversation with Ian James and




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198

1 conversations with my friends.

2 Q. All right. When was the conversation

3 with Mr. James?

4 A. I can't recall. Right around the time

5 that they were discussing doing these petitions for

6 Charlie Earl.

7 MR. ZEIGER: I don't believe I have any

8 other questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.


10 Mr. Brown.

11 - - -


13 By Mr. Brown:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Runta, is that how

15 it's pronounced?

16 A. "Run-tah."

17 Q. "Run-tah," I'm sorry, I apologize.

18 Have you voted in any party's primary in

19 the preceding two calendar years here in Ohio?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Were you employed by The Strategy Network

22 to circulate petitions for Charlie Earl, Charlie

23 Earl's campaign?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you, in your part-petitions you




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199

1 submitted for Charlie Earl, disclose that Strategy

2 Network was your employer?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was that correct?

5 A. That was correct.

6 Q. Did you, by chance, circulate any

7 part-petitions for Steven Linnabary, the Attorney

8 General candidate for the Libertarian Party

9 candidates of Ohio?

10 A. I believe I did.

11 Q. Did you also indicate in those petitions

12 that you were employed by Strategy Network?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you in fact employed by Strategy

15 Network at that time?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. Was that disclosure correct?

18 A. That was absolutely correct.

19 MR. BROWN: Thank you. No further

20 questions.


22 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Mr. Runta,

23 thank you very much. You are excused. Thank you for

24 your time.





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200

1 MR. TIGGES: We would re-call

2 Mr. McGinnis.

3 HEARING OFFICER: All right. The

4 protestors would like to call -- re-call Mike

5 McGinnis -- or, Mark McGinnis, I'm sorry.

6 Is Mr. McGinnis here in the room with us?

7 All right. We're going to send for

8 Mr. McGinnis here.



11 Mr. McGinnis, do you want to take the stand.

12 MR. MCGINNIS: Yes, sir.

13 HEARING OFFICER: I will remind you that

14 you are still under oath. We don't need to

15 administer that again, but you're still under oath at

16 this time.

17 Mr. Tigges.

18 MR. TIGGES: Thank you. Professor Smith,

19 as a preliminary matter, I think it would be

20 appropriate to have Mr. Colombo put on the record

21 what he informed us at sidebar.

22 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Colombo, could we

23 have that done?

24 MR. COLOMBO: Yes. We approached, during

25 a break I informed the Hearing Officer that




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201

1 Mr. William DeMora is unavailable this afternoon, but

2 we would appreciate the opportunity for Mr. McGinnis

3 to answer questions. During the break, Mr. DeMora

4 did waive attorney-client privilege on behalf of the

5 client, so I think that's all that we need to get on

6 the record.


8 MR. MCGINNIS: Thank you.


10 Mr. Tigges.

11 - - -

12 MARK A. MCGINNIS



15 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

16 By Mr. Tigges:

17 Q. Mr. McGinnis, what is Mr. DeMora's

18 affiliation with Ohioans for Liberty?

19 A. He is the principal. The individual that

20 I consult with.

21 Q. Does Ohioans for Liberty have any other

22 principals aside from Mr. DeMora?

23 A. No. Other than to the extent you would

24 consider me, no.

25 Q. Do you consider yourself a principal of




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202

1 Ohioans for Liberty?

2 A. No. I am the statutory agent.

3 Q. Mr. DeMora is a consultant for the Ohio

4 Democratic Party?

5 A. He's a consultant generally. I

6 believe -- I believe, and I could be incorrect, it's

7 The DeMora Group is the name of his consulting firm,

8 I believe.

9 Q. And he consults for the Ohio Democratic

10 Party, does he not?

11 A. He may, yes. I don't know.

12 Q. And in fact he was the executive director

13 of the Ohio Democratic Party from 1999 until 2003?

14 A. Honestly, I don't know the dates, but I

15 do know that he was, yes.

16 Q. One of the questions I asked you this

17 morning was whether Ohioans for Liberty had any

18 sources of funding aside from the payment in the

19 amount of $828,000 from the Ohio Democratic Party,

20 you said yes, and then declined to answer what those

21 sources were. Would you please answer that question,

22 now, sir.

23 A. Yes. It was the Ohio Education

24 Association.

25 Q. How much?




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203

1 A. I'm sorry. I believe it was $6,000. I

2 believe.

3 Q. That's fair. That's fair. Any other

4 sources?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. If you could look at Plaintiff's

7 Exhibit 37. This is the Form 14.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did Mr. DeMora authorize you to file

10 this?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. DeMora having

13 Ohioans for Liberty compensate someone to organize or

14 manage or supervise obtaining signatures for the Earl

15 campaign?

16 A. Yes, he discussed it with me, yes.

17 Q. He brought it up to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did he tell you?

20 A. He told me who to pay, which checks

21 needed to be cut, and authorized me to file Form -- I

22 informed him of the requirement of filing Form 14 and

23 he authorized me to file it on the organization's

24 behalf.

25 Q. Who did he tell you to pay?




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204

1 A. The Strategy Network.

2 Q. Did he say why he wanted the payment to

3 go through The Strategy Network?

4 A. He said it was -- it was to compensate

5 that entity for the management of the collection of

6 signatures.

7 Q. Did Mr. DeMora tell you why Ohioans for

8 Liberty was going to support a Libertarian candidate?

9 A. No, he did not.

10 Q. Do you know why?

11 A. No, I do not.

12 Q. Did Ohioans for Liberty in fact

13 compensate someone to supervise, manage, or organize

14 efforts to collect signatures for the Earl campaign?

15 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I hesitated because it

16 was for the group of petitions was my understanding.

17 Q. It was not only the Earl campaign, it was

18 the entire group of Libertarian candidates?

19 A. That was my understanding.

20 Q. And you have that understanding based on

21 your discussions with Mr. DeMora?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who -- to whom did Ohioans for

24 Liberty make the payment?

25 A. We made that, that payment is, and I




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205

1 believe that's, I can refer to the exhibit, Exhibit

2 P-36, and there may be another check as well to The

3 Strategy Network. Is that right?

4 Q. P-36 is the check for $12,000?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And you believe there was a second check

7 to The Strategy Network?

8 A. I believe so.


10 your Honor?


12 A. I think in this sequence there's another

13 document after it.

14 Q. I've handed you Exhibit P-34. Is that

15 the second check to The Strategy Network from Ohioans

16 for Liberty?

17 A. Yes, it is. And, I apologize, I can't

18 read the number, but yes, it is.

19 Q. Actually, I think if you look at where

20 it's spelled out in the second line.

21 A. Up at the top. I'm sorry, yes.

22 Q. $6,000?

23 A. $6,000, correct.

24 Q. And was a stop payment issued on this

25 check.




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206

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Why is that?

3 A. I spoke with Mr. DeMora who informed me

4 to -- actually, I'm trying to think if I was the one

5 who spoke to him. I believe someone in our office

6 spoke to him, I apologize, and it was my

7 understanding that a stop payment was put on that

8 check.

9 Q. Do you know the reason why?

10 A. I do not know the reason why.

11 Q. So $12,000 was the total amount that

12 Ohioans for Liberty paid to The Strategy Network to

13 collect signatures for the Libertarian Party

14 candidates?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How was the $12,000 amount arrived at, if

17 you know?

18 A. I do not know.

19 Q. Do you know who The Strategy Network paid

20 with that money?

21 A. I do not know.

22 Q. What was the source of funds for the

23 $12,000 payment?

24 A. The source of funds, if I'm understanding

25 correctly, was the Ohioans for Liberty bank account.




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207

1 Q. Which had money in it from three sources:

2 The Ohio Democratic Party, AFSCME, and The Ohio

3 Education Association?

4 A. I -- the AFSCME --

5 Q. Okay. Fair.

6 A. The earlier entity, right.

7 Q. Right. Did those monies end up in the

8 Ohioans for Liberty Inc. bank account, the monies

9 from AFSCME?

10 A. I apologize. I don't know. I don't

11 know. I apologize.

12 Q. Were there any invoices from The Strategy

13 Network to Ohioans for Liberty --

14 A. No.

15 Q. -- for the work relating to this matter?

16 A. No, there were not.

17 Q. Do you know if any payments were made by

18 Ohioans for Liberty or anyone else to Sara Hart?

19 A. I do not believe any payments were made

20 to Sara Hart, no.

21 MR. TIGGES: Thank you, Professor Smith.

22 Nothing further.


24 Mr. Brown? Nothing?

25 MR. BROWN: I have no questions.




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208

1 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Are we

2 finished then with Mr. McGinnis for the day?

3 MR. TIGGES: Yes.


5 Mr. McGinnis, thank you very much for your time.


7 HEARING OFFICER: You are excused.


9 HEARING OFFICER: All right. We have,

10 what, two more witnesses you want to bring up?

11 MR. TIGGES: Should we reserve the right

12 to re-call Mr. McGinnis?

13 HEARING OFFICER: That's why I asked that

14 last question.

15 MR. TIGGES: I apologize. I guess I

16 should have mentioned it.

17 MR. ZEIGER: Yes, we'd like to reserve

18 the right to re-call Mr. McGinnis, please.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. McGinnis, I know

20 that you have -- do you have appointments outside of

21 this building that you need to attend to?

22 MR. MCGINNIS: I do. I apologize.

23 MR. TIGGES: Perhaps he can leave a cell

24 phone number.

25 HEARING OFFICER: If you can do something




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209

1 like that. Hopefully we won't need you at all, but

2 if you could do that, I'd appreciate that, if you

3 could leave that with Mr. Christopher and we will

4 contact you.

5 MR. MCGINNIS: Absolutely.

6 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you again. I

7 appreciate the time of all the witnesses who always

8 for these things don't get much in return for their

9 service.

10 You have two more witnesses then? One?

11 MR. TIGGES: Just one.

12 HEARING OFFICER: And that one is the

13 last petitioner, I think?

14 MR. TIGGES: No. It's Ian James.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Oh, Ian James. Okay.

16 We've gotten all the ones --

17 MR. TIGGES: Except for the one that

18 didn't show up.

19 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, not counting the

20 ones who weren't here.

21 Mr. Brown, let me ask you, while we're

22 waiting, do you expect to call any witnesses yourself

23 on this matter or are you relying just on

24 cross-examination and the points of law that you

25 made?




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210

1 MR. BROWN: I tried to do it all on

2 cross, your Honor, and I don't think I'm going to

3 call any witnesses.

4 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Obviously

5 if you change your mind in the next few minutes that

6 would be all right. So we may be not even too far

7 behind. We were supposed to start the Linnabary

8 hearing at 3:00, that will be delayed a bit as we

9 complete this hearing, but it looks like we're making

10 pretty good progress at this point.

11 At this point in time, Mr. Tigges, while

12 we wait, do you want to go ahead and make a motion

13 to, I don't know even know if we need a motion, that

14 we will accept all of these exhibits into the record,

15 expect for Exhibit 23, which I excluded earlier, that

16 was the proposed stipulations?

17 MR. TIGGES: So moved.

18 HEARING OFFICER: All right. So,

19 Mr. Brown, do you have any problem with that,

20 anything else, any others of these that you think

21 should not be part of the hearing record?

22 MR. BROWN: I have a continuing objection

23 on relevance grounds, your Honor, to --

24 HEARING OFFICER: Okay.

25 MR. BROWN: -- many of the documents.




Proceedings


211

1 HEARING OFFICER: All right. I will

2 consider that, again, as I review the documents and

3 the basis of my reading of the law. So all of these

4 exhibits are admitted as part of the record. Again,

5 I say, "all these exhibits," with the exception of

6 Protestors Exhibit 23.

7 (EXHIBITS ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)

8 MR. ZEIGER: And while we're dealing with

9 those kind of procedural issues, if I might, I'd like

10 to make a motion that an adverse inference be drawn

11 against Eileen Voorhees for her failure to appear

12 pursuant to a validly-served subpoena, the inference

13 being that the failure to show is indicative of the

14 fact that she is not a member of the Libertarian

15 Party as represented in her petition.

16 HEARING OFFICER: Well, I don't know if I

17 will make that particular adverse inference, but as I

18 have made clear to counsel and I do believe that in

19 this type of informal hearing, as generally in more

20 formal civil hearings, adverse inferences can be

21 drawn from refusal to show and to testify, and any

22 such adverse inferences I rely on will be in my

23 ultimate recommendation to the Secretary of State.

24 MR. ZEIGER: Please note that we'd also

25 request an adverse inference drawn from the failure




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212

1 of Sara Hart to appear.

2 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. That's so noted.

3 MR. BROWN: Can I interject?

4 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Brown, yes.

5 MR. BROWN: I don't believe Ms. Hart was

6 ever subpoenaed, so I don't know that the adverse

7 inference applies to her.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Well, that's a valid

9 point. Ms. Hart was subpoenaed. I will check the

10 subpoena log. If she was not validly served, then

11 you are quite correct, I would not want to draw that

12 adverse inference in that case, so.

13 Mr. Rieser, I see you back there, if I

14 could ask you perhaps to -- we have the hearing on

15 Linnabary in a few minutes. Some of the other

16 witnesses in this proceeding are asking if they are

17 free to go, if we might request them to stay for a

18 further proceeding, including the petitioners that we

19 just heard from, Ms. Baker, Mr. Runta, and so on.

20 Again, I would believe it to be

21 appropriate that we can stipulate to the testimony

22 they've given at this hearing for Linnabary, but,

23 obviously, if you have other questions that you would

24 want to ask, that would make a different scenario

25 obviously.




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213

1 MR. RIESER: Yes. Obviously, I've

2 discussed it with my co-counsel, Mr. Kennedy, and it

3 is our position that if everybody is in agreement

4 that we could just adopt by inference all the

5 testimony that's been given.

6 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. In that case I

7 am going to suggest, first, that we appreciate these

8 witnesses actually asking if we wanted them to stay

9 around, they are not under subpoena for this hearing,

10 and I appreciate your cooperation in speeding this

11 along. So we'll let those witnesses know that they

12 can be released. Thank you.


14 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Zeiger, you had

15 specifically requested at the start of this hearing

16 that witnesses be removed. At this point do you have

17 a problem with witnesses who have testified and are

18 still here being present for Mr. James' testimony and

19 any closing statements? Some have expressed that

20 desire to be present.

21 MR. ZEIGER: I believe that's fine.

22 Thank you. We appreciate the separation and if they

23 would like to be in a public hearing, that's fine.

24 Thank you.





Proceedings


214

1 Okay. Mr. James, thank you.

2 MR. JAMES: Hello. Thank you.

3 HEARING OFFICER: I'll ask the reporter

4 if she will swear you in.

5 - - -

6 IAN JAMES




10 By Mr. Tigges:

11 Q. Would you state your full name, please.

12 A. Ian Andrew Steven James.

13 Q. And what do you do for a living, sir?

14 A. I'm a political consultant, grassroots

15 consultancy -- owner of a grassroots consultancy and

16 advocacy firm.

17 Q. The firm you're referring to is The


19 A. It is indeed.

20 Q. You are one of the owners?

21 A. I am.

22 Q. You are the chief executive officer,

23 correct?

24 A. I am.

25 Q. You are a registered Democrat?




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215

1 A. I am proudly.

2 Q. And a long history of being very active

3 in the Ohio Democratic Party.

4 A. Indeed.

5 Q. If you could look in the notebook in

6 front of you, Mr. James --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- to Exhibit P-26.

9 A. I take it these are just kind of loose?

10 Q. There are some loose ones up there, but

11 the one I'm asking you should be in the notebook

12 behind, with any luck behind tab 26.

13 A. There I am.

14 Q. That is a Form 14 that you filed?

15 A. I'm sorry. Sorry about that. Yes.

16 Q. That is a Form 14 that you filed,

17 correct, sir?

18 A. Someone filed it for me.

19 Q. Is this in your hand?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. Do you know who filed it?

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. And this is for to receive compensation

24 for supervising, managing, or organizing efforts to

25 obtain signatures for Mr. Earl?




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216

1 A. It would appear to be so, yes.

2 Q. Did you in fact supervise, manage, or

3 organize any efforts to obtain signatures for

4 Mr. Earl?

5 A. I did some of that, yes.

6 Q. What did you do?

7 A. I made sure that we had people that were

8 going to collect signatures.

9 Q. Did you personally collect signatures?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. You just gathered a group together and

12 directed them to do so?

13 A. I don't know if I would characterize it

14 that way, but I've actually made sure people were

15 hired to be trained to collect signatures.

16 Q. Hired by your company, The Strategy

17 Network?


19 Q. Who hired The Strategy Network to do

20 this?

21 A. It was the, what is it, the Ohioans for

22 Liberty.

23 Q. What is that?

24 A. That is the entity that hired us. I

25 don't know what that is.




Proceedings


217

1 Q. Did you speak with anyone about this

2 effort to gather signatures for Mr. Earl prior to

3 being hired to do so?

4 A. I spoke with, I don't know if it would be

5 attorney-client privilege, but I spoke with Mark

6 McGinnis.

7 Q. What did you and Mr. McGinnis discuss?

8 A. That I would be picking up a check for --

9 from the Ohioans for Liberty.

10 Q. Did you speak with anyone else about

11 this --

12 A. I spoke with -- yes, I had some

13 communication with Erik Greathouse and I believe

14 Chris Redfern back in January, early of January,

15 about the possibility of collecting signatures. I

16 had conversation with Mark McGinnis and then

17 subsequently I had conversations with Jerid Kurtz.

18 THE WITNESS: Is there any water?


20 Q. Who is Mr. Greathouse?

21 A. Erik Greathouse, I've known Erik for a

22 while. He's -- I believe he raises money for the

23 Ohio Democratic Party.

24 Q. Mr. Redfern is the executive director of

25 the Ohio Democratic Party?




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218

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. What is his position?

3 A. He is the chairman.

4 Q. What about Mr. Kurtz, what does he do?

5 A. I believe that he is the outgoing

6 communication director.

7 Q. For the Ohio Democratic Party.

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. What did you discuss with Mr. Greathouse

10 about collecting signatures for Libertarian

11 candidates?

12 A. There was a need to make sure that

13 Libertarians made it to the ballot.

14 Q. Why?

15 A. From -- as a political consultant, I read

16 polling every once in a while and I can see that

17 when, like, Charlie Earl is on the ballot that it

18 does actually pull away votes from John Kasich.

19 Q. Okay. And that was the reason that the

20 effort was undertaken?

21 A. I don't know why it was undertaken, sir.

22 You asked me why to me.

23 Q. Did you discuss it with Mr. Greathouse

24 that this would pull votes potentially from Governor

25 Kasich?




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1 A. I'm not certain -- I don't have any

2 recollection directly what our conversation was, but

3 I know I mentioned that to him.

4 Q. What did you discuss with Mr. Redfern

5 about this effort to collect signatures for

6 Libertarian candidates?

7 A. Nothing directly except for what's in

8 the, it was the January 2nd e-mail.

9 Q. And what about Mr. Kurtz, what did you

10 discuss with him?

11 A. The only thing I talked to him about was

12 just how the collection was going.

13 Q. That would have been later in time?

14 A. Yes. We may have talked about what the

15 process was.


17 your Honor?


19 Q. Your counsel provided -- this is marked

20 as Exhibit P eighty --

21 A. One.

22 Q. 81, I apologize.

23 A. It's all right.

24 Q. Your counsel provided that this morning

25 and you mentioned, I think, one of the documents on




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1 here, the second item, a January 2, 2014 document.

2 Who are the parties to that document?

3 A. I don't have it in front of me.

4 Q. Your best recollection, sir.

5 A. Best recollection was the -- I think it

6 was Greathouse and Redfern, but I don't have it in

7 front of me.

8 Q. And yourself?

9 A. And myself, of course.

10 Q. When it says "discussing strategy," whose

11 strategy?

12 A. Again, I'd have to see the e-mail, sir.

13 I don't recollect.

14 Q. But it had to do with Democratic

15 interests collecting signatures on behalf of

16 Libertarian candidates?

17 A. If I can see the e-mail, I'd be happy to

18 give you --

19 MR. DEMARCO: We can submit it to you for

20 -- those are actually all the documents on that list.


22 (Discussion at the bench.)

23 MR. ZEIGER: May I approach the witness?


25 Q. Sir, let me hand you what's marked as




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1 Exhibit P-83. Those are the January 2, 2014 e-mails

2 we were discussing?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. There are two e-mails in that document.

5 Is that right?

6 A. It appears to be so.

7 Q. And the first one, who is it from and who

8 is it to?

9 A. It looks like the first one is from Erik

10 Greathouse.

11 Q. To who?

12 A. To Chris Redfern. It looks like I must

13 have been -- I must have been copied on it, because

14 there would be no reason for me to have it.

15 Q. And since that's the only copy, could you

16 read for the record what the message is? I believe

17 it's fairly brief.

18 A. Yes. "Chris in regards to the

19 libertarian candidate. What do we need to do on

20 petition front... Ian James is ready and willing.

21 But what did you find out from them when you met with

22 them..??"

23 Q. And it says "libertarian candidate,"

24 singular?

25 A. Singular.




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1 Q. Do you know what that's referring to?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. And what's the second e-mail on Exhibit

4 P-83?

5 A. Right. It appears to be my reply. "We

6 obviously want this to be helpful to the ODP both

7 short and long term. So let us know what we need to

8 do for this to be truly value added across the

9 board."

10 Q. Okay. And ultimately it was determined

11 that you would engage in this effort to have

12 signatures collected for the Libertarian candidates,

13 correct, sir?

14 A. The Ohioans for Liberty did in fact

15 engage us, yes.

16 Q. Do you know what the affiliation is

17 between Ohioans for Liberty and the Ohio Democratic

18 Party?

19 A. Your guess is as good as mine.

20 Q. I probably got more than a guess, but

21 that's okay.

22 A. I'm not in a guessing game and neither

23 are you.

24 Q. Who within your firm, The Strategy

25 Network, worked on this project to collect signatures




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1 for Libertarian candidates?

2 A. Well, let's see, it was me, then there

3 was James Winnett, Drew, would have been Sam, would

4 have been Eileen, would have been Emily. I think

5 that was it.

6 Q. Okay. Sam is Sam Runta?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Eileen is Eileen Voorhees?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Emily is Emily Baker?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And Drew is Drew Goldsmith?

13 A. Correct. We're on a first-name basis.

14 Q. Does Eileen Voorhees still work for you?

15 A. Eileen does not work for us.

16 Q. Did she ever work for you?

17 A. Yes, she did.

18 Q. When did she cease working for you?

19 A. I believe after this collection.

20 Q. Okay. The collection for the Libertarian

21 Party candidates.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Have you had any communications with

24 Eileen Voorhees regarding this proceeding here today?

25 A. I have talked with her, but I'm not




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1 certain exactly what we talked about.

2 Q. When did you speak with her?

3 A. The other day. She was moving.

4 Q. Moving from where to where? Do you know?

5 A. Cincinnati to Columbus.

6 Q. So she's in Columbus now as far as you

7 know?

8 A. As far as I know.

9 Q. Did she say anything to you about this

10 hearing?

11 A. I don't recollect.

12 Q. Was The Strategy Network paid for its

13 work on collecting signatures for Libertarian

14 candidates?

15 A. Say again.

16 Q. Was The Strategy Network paid for its

17 work on collecting these signatures?

18 A. Yes. We received two checks; one was for

19 12,000, one was for 6,000.

20 Q. And those checks came from where?

21 A. The Ohioans for Liberty.

22 Q. And was the second check, the $6,000

23 check, subject to a stop payment order?

24 A. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

25 Q. Did Ohioans for Liberty stop payment on




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1 the $6,000 check?

2 A. I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. Now, did you -- did you compensate

4 Mr. Runta for his efforts to collect signatures for

5 the Libertarian candidates?


7 Q. How did you do that?

8 A. I am not in charge of the financial part

9 of this company.

10 Q. Did you compensate Mr. Goldsmith?

11 A. I believe that he is a unpaid intern.

12 Q. So the answer is probably not or no?

13 A. Probably not.

14 Q. Okay. What about Ms. Baker, was she

15 compensated for collecting signatures?

16 A. She was collecting signatures, but she

17 was also working on a number of other projects. So

18 she was compensated as part of that, she would have

19 been collecting signatures, probably -- I think

20 probably not many.

21 Q. Was Ms. Voorhees compensated for

22 collecting --

23 A. I would think so, but I would have to

24 look and find that out.

25 Q. Where did The Strategy Network obtain the




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1 funds to make these payments to the signature

2 collectors?

3 A. Ohioans for Liberty.

4 Q. If you could look at Plaintiff's -- or,

5 I'm sorry, Protestors Exhibit 30.

6 A. Yes, sir. Can I just put these up here?

7 Q. Yeah. Please.

8 A. Okay. Yes.

9 Q. This is a Form 14 that The Strategy

10 Network filed in order to receive compensation for

11 collecting these signatures for the Libertarian

12 candidates?

13 A. It would appear to be so, yes.

14 Q. And who is Sara McHenry?

15 A. She works in the office. She helps with

16 accounting.

17 Q. So the purposes of this Form 14, Exhibit

18 30, was for your firm to receive the funds, receive

19 the monies from Ohioans for Liberty.


21 Q. And if you look at Exhibit 31, sir.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's a Form 14 that The Strategy

24 Network filed in order to compensate others for

25 collecting the signatures from Mr. Earl, correct?




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2 Q. You mentioned a Mr. Winnett. And I

3 understand he's had some unfortunate situation here

4 recently. What was his involvement in the signature

5 collection process?

6 A. He was more day-to-day involved in the

7 process of working with Libertarian chairs across the

8 state, working directly with petitioners.

9 Q. So Mr. Winnett would communicate with

10 representatives of the Ohio Libertarian Party as part

11 of this effort?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Did you ever do so?


15 Q. And was Mr. Winnett --

16 A. I'm sorry. I do take that back. I did,

17 at the very end, some gentleman, but I couldn't

18 recall his name, if he was standing here in front of

19 me I could point him out, but I don't know, I've

20 never met him before.

21 Q. Do you know what his position was?

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. Was Mr. Winnett the person responsible

24 for managing the day-to-day efforts of the signature

25 collectors themselves?




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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Did Sara Hart ever collect any signatures

3 for The Strategy Network as part of this project?

4 A. I would have to look back and see. I'm

5 not certain.

6 Q. Do you know Sara Hart?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know whether The Strategy Network

9 paid Sara Hart for collecting signatures for

10 Mr. Earl?

11 A. Again, I'd have to look back at the

12 records to find that out.

13 Q. Would you be willing to do so and, if you

14 find anything, deliver it to us and the Hearing

15 Examiner so we can make it a part of this record?

16 A. I can take a look. Sure.

17 MR. TIGGES: If I can have moment.


19 MR. TIGGES: Nothing further.

20 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. James, before you

21 go here. Mr. Brown, questions?

22 MR. BROWN: No questions.

23 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Mr. James,

24 how long do you think it would take you to review

25 those records Mr. Tigges asked you for? Could we get




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1 those by late this evening or first thing in the

2 morning?

3 THE WITNESS: It would have to be -- it

4 will be soon, but it's not going to be this evening.

5 Everybody is on a -- working on another project.

6 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Is it possible

7 to have those by say 10:00 a.m.? I mean we've got a

8 -- I've got a --

9 THE WITNESS: With all due respect, sir,

10 I run a business.

11 HEARING OFFICER: I understand.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't run a panel.

13 HEARING OFFICER: I understand. But

14 we --

15 THE WITNESS: I will try my best to get

16 them to you in an expeditious way, and I'm here

17 voluntarily, but I don't know exactly when I can get

18 them to you. I will do everything in my power to

19 make sure I get this to you expeditiously.

20 HEARING OFFICER: Well, what does

21 "expeditiously" mean?

22 THE WITNESS: I will try tomorrow.

23 HEARING OFFICER: I mean, with due

24 respect, we also have a ship to run here under the

25 Ohio statutes and Revised Code --




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1 THE WITNESS: As do I, sir.

2 HEARING OFFICER: And you have been

3 served, I believe with a subpoena.

4 THE WITNESS: Sir, I am here voluntarily.

5 HEARING OFFICER: I believe you were

6 served with a subpoena.

7 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm here

8 voluntarily, sir.

9 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, but you were

10 served with a subpoena and that requires your

11 production. So I am going to ask that you have those

12 to us by noon tomorrow. I understand the

13 inconvenience. A great many of us --

14 THE WITNESS: I'll do my best.

15 HEARING OFFICER: -- including many

16 witnesses are inconvenienced today and your best may

17 not be good enough if it's not by noon tomorrow.

18 Thank you very much.

19 MR. TIGGES: One --


21 MR. TIGGES: One solution, perhaps, if I

22 ask a few more questions I may be able to just clear

23 this up.

24 HEARING OFFICER: All right. I'll go

25 ahead and let you ask a few questions --




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1 MR. TIGGES: I don't know. I'll try.

2 HEARING OFFICER: -- and we'll see what

3 we can do.

4 I'm not trying to be a hardass here,

5 Mr. James. I'm simply trying to get work done that

6 has to be done under the laws of this State and you

7 won't find many people sitting in this position who

8 are more sympathetic to the issues of a small

9 businessman, but --

10 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that, sir.

11 HEARING OFFICER: Again, this is what we

12 have to do.

13 THE WITNESS: Most of our people are

14 actually out of the office, so when I return -- when

15 I leave this --

16 HEARING OFFICER: Well, let's see if we

17 can get --

18 THE WITNESS: -- when I leave this panel

19 today, sir, I will be the only person in the office,

20 so. And, again, I don't, you know, I'm the CEO, but

21 I don't run the ship, you know, when it comes to the

22 financial side of this.

23 HEARING OFFICER: Well, again, I tried to

24 point out that many of the people in this proceeding

25 that it's not ideal, we all have to put an extra




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1 effort in.

2 THE WITNESS: Correct. Very good.

3 HEARING OFFICER: Maybe Mr. Tigges can

4 solve this for us.

5 MR. TIGGES: I'm going to try.

6 Q. (By Mr. Tigges) Were Mr. Runta,

7 Mr. Goldsmith, Ms. Baker, and Ms. Voorhees the only

8 persons that collected signatures on behalf of

9 Strategy Network for the Libertarian effort?

10 A. To my -- again, to my knowledge that is

11 the case, but I would have to look back and see what

12 the Form 15s --

13 Q. Did your firm use any professional

14 signature collection agency such as Arno, for

15 example?

16 A. No, sir.

17 MR. TIGGES: Okay. If you could check

18 those records --

19 THE WITNESS: I will. Again, I'll do my

20 best, but when I return to my office I will be the

21 only one person there, and asking me to turn on

22 QuickBooks, you are looking for disaster here.

23 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Anything

24 else?

25 MR. ZEIGER: No, Professor.




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1 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. James, you

2 are excused. Thank you very much.

3 Mr. Brown, he has nothing.

4 Any more witnesses for the protestors

5 here?

6 MR. ZEIGER: No. Thank you so much for

7 the time and attention, but we rest our case.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Brown, do

9 you want to introduce any other witnesses or call any

10 witnesses today?

11 MR. BROWN: No, your Honor. We rest.

12 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Brown, you

13 had submitted a number of exhibits with your prior

14 brief; is that correct?

15 MR. BROWN: Yes, your Honor.

16 HEARING OFFICER: All right. So we have

17 accepted those into the record. We've accepted other

18 exhibits. Are there any other exhibits that anybody

19 wants to admit other than that which we're waiting

20 for from Mr. James?

21 MR. ZEIGER: No.

22 HEARING OFFICER: We will -- what we will

23 do on this is we will hold the record open for those,

24 for that request, and if there is anything else that

25 one thinks of that you think is probative, you may




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1 submit it. If it comes in without objection, we'll

2 take it up until, oh, let's say noon tomorrow, I can

3 do that.

4 Now, I -- give me one brief moment here.

5 Okay. I want to ask each of you if you

6 would like to make a brief statement, no more than a

7 few minutes and we will -- Mr. Brown, I'll ask you if

8 you'd like to go first and have any comments that you

9 think would be helpful for me in framing the issue

10 and reaching the appropriate decision.

11 MR. BROWN: Sure, your Honor.

12 Just a couple issues in this case. One

13 of the issues is whether the circulators of the

14 candidates' petitions were -- I'm sorry, whether they

15 had voted in another party's primary within two

16 calendar years. If they did not, then they are, by

17 law, considered to be Libertarian Party members for

18 the purpose of circulating and their collection

19 efforts are lawful.

20 The rest of the evidence that the

21 protestors put on about them really being Democratic

22 operatives and being Democratic agents and being

23 funded by the Democrats is all irrelevant. It has no

24 bearing on that issue whatsoever. It is not unlawful

25 for Democrats to pay circulators who are circulating




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1 for Libertarian Party candidates. It's not unlawful

2 for the Libertarian Party to seek support from

3 anybody and everybody. So that's just a smoke

4 screen, your Honor.

5 The other issue is whether the

6 circulators, the candidate circulators properly

7 identified their employers. I think we saw testimony

8 that the circulators for Strategy Network did, they

9 worked for Strategy Network and they all identified

10 Strategy Network as their employer.

11 As far as Oscar Hatchett goes, he

12 testified he's an independent contractor, so he did

13 not disclose anyone. He has never disclosed anyone.

14 He's circulated for years. So that's proper.

15 As far as Ms. Hart, she didn't testify,

16 but there was testimony from Mr. Hatchett that she

17 was an independent contractor, so you can draw your

18 inference from that testimony that she was an

19 independent contractor and therefore did not have to

20 disclose her employer.

21 It's a very simple case, your Honor.

22 That's -- that's the end of it.


24 Mr. Brown.

25 Mr. Zeiger or Mr. Tigges. Mr. Zeiger.




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1 MR. ZEIGER: Ohio statutes are clear and

2 direct. 3501.38 says the circulator shall, not an

3 equivocal term, a mandatory term, shall identify the

4 name of the person employing the circulator to

5 circulate the petition.

6 The evidence is undisputed. Oscar

7 Hatchett was employed by the Libertarian Party, each

8 of his part-petitions containing over 660 signatures,

9 failed to comply with 3501.38 and as such, under

10 3513.05, the lack of full compliance means that the

11 petitions shall, shall be determined to be invalid

12 and shall be rejected. There is no question that

13 Mr. Hatchett was paid. There's no question that he

14 did not make the proper disclosure.

15 Likewise as to Sara Hart, the evidence is

16 that she is a paid professional circulator.

17 Mr. Hatchett acknowledged as much. We have various

18 other documents in the materials that have been

19 submitted that acknowledge that she is a paid

20 circulator. It's hard to say that she was doing this

21 for some altruistic reasons when she signs documents,

22 under penalty of perjury, that she's a Democrat, so

23 she's not doing this out of the goodness of her

24 heart.

25 So we have, I believe, the preponderance




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1 of the evidence that Sara Hart is also a paid

2 professional circulator who was paid in this

3 proceeding to generate those 250-odd additional

4 signatures, each of which, each part-petition again

5 failed to comply by showing the name and identity of

6 the person paying her for her services.

7 You, Professor, have been clear

8 throughout that there are two legal issues that are

9 going to control the outcome of this. I believe as

10 to the first issue there is really no factual

11 dispute. The real dispute is knowing that these

12 people were paid to circulate the petitions, that

13 being Hatchett and Hart, and knowing that they did

14 not disclose the identity and address of the party

15 paying them, the question is: Is that on its face a

16 violation of Ohio law. The answer is clearly it is.

17 And the only defense we've heard is that there's some

18 distinction between employee and independent

19 contractor. But the statute doesn't say that you

20 have to disclose the employment relation; it says you

21 have to disclose the identity of the person that is

22 employing you. And that identity was not disclosed.

23 The Secretary of State, who you're acting

24 on behalf of, filed a brief in the Rothenberg case in

25 the Ohio Supreme Court and in that brief, as we laid




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1 out in the brief we have submitted, he said that the

2 question of compensation is the issue, not the

3 question of whether there's an independent contractor

4 or whether there's an employee relationship.

5 And what did the Supreme Court say? They

6 said we agree and we acknowledge that the opinion of

7 the Secretary of State on that issue is entitled to

8 deference. So the law of the land, at least this

9 state, has already established that the argument of

10 the Libertarian Party that it makes a difference

11 whether a person is an employee or, alternatively, an

12 independent contractor has been rejected and has been

13 rejected by the Secretary of State and the Supreme

14 Court of Ohio.

15 Additionally, as you review this, you

16 would, if you believe that that distinction makes any

17 difference, you need to focus on the fact that every

18 one of these part-petitions submitted by Hart and

19 Hatchett were completed in substantial respects by

20 the Libertarian Party.

21 There's this argument that Mr. Hatchett

22 and Ms. Hart were just off doing whatever they wanted

23 to do. Well, if you'll note the word "Libertarian"

24 on every single circulator's petition in this case

25 was put there by one person, we heard his testimony




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1 as the first witness in this proceeding, and that is

2 a substantive direction that was given to each of

3 them to control their conduct in completing these

4 forms.

5 So the question of whether they are truly

6 an independent contractor or whether they were

7 subject to the control on a fundamental point as an

8 employee I think is an open issue in the evidence

9 that has been presented.

10 So we believe that all of the petitions

11 of Hatchett and Hart where they were the circulators

12 have to be rejected under the mandatory provisions of

13 3501.38 as applied by 3513.05.

14 The second issue goes to this question of

15 whether the petition has to be circulated by a member

16 of the same political party as the joint candidates.

17 We've already heard Oscar Hatchett

18 testify under oath that he has never been a member of

19 the Libertarian Party. And we have the sworn

20 statement of Sara Hart, under penalty of perjury,

21 even though she's not here, Exhibit P-20 is her sworn

22 statement, under penalty of perjury, that she is a

23 Democrat. So we know that as a matter of fact, not

24 fiction, but fact, neither Hart nor Hatchett can

25 qualify as a member of the Libertarian Party for the




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1 purposes of circulating the petitions.

2 We believe that when you have an

3 opportunity to look at the Sixth Circuit decision

4 cited in our brief, as well as the Ohio Supreme Court

5 authority, that you will agree that the language that

6 the Libertarians depend upon to say that if you've

7 never voted in an Ohio primary you can be a member of

8 any political party, irrespective of what your true

9 political position is, is in fact a misconstruction

10 of a provision that is nothing more than a rebuttable

11 presumption. And given the testimony of Hart and

12 Hatchett, that presumption has been rebutted and

13 those petitions must be tossed out.

14 Finally, we come to the Democratic Party

15 effort to, as Mr. Ian James so honestly put it, try

16 to make sure there was a candidate on the right to

17 oppose the incumbent Governor for the benefit of the

18 Democratic Party. And what we know about that is

19 that we have established, I believe, by clear and

20 convincing evidence, that there was a Democratic

21 Party effort funded by money from the Democratic

22 Party to save the Libertarian candidates from not

23 qualifying as their e-mails otherwise indicated would

24 be the outcome.

25 We know that of the four solicitors, who




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1 were the paid agents of the Democratic Party through

2 Ohioans for Liberty and Strategy Network, we know

3 that Eileen Voorhees signed twice within a two-week

4 period prior to the time she was circulating these

5 petitions, we know she signed twice saying she was a

6 Democrat and supporting Democratic candidates.

7 We know that Emily Baker signed one time

8 within two weeks of the time she circulated petitions

9 saying she was a Democrat. In both cases for David

10 Pepper's candidacy for Attorney General and in

11 Voorhees' case also for Prues as a congressional

12 candidate. Those are Exhibits P-67, P-70, and, I

13 don't -- oh, P-61. So we know that two of those

14 circulators actually signed, under penalty of

15 election falsification, that they were members of the

16 Democratic Party. You can't have it both ways.

17 Again, we have rebutted the presumption as to

18 Voorhees and Baker.

19 Andrew Goldsmith was very direct. He

20 admitted he's never had any party affiliation,

21 including never having been a member of the

22 Libertarian Party, and so his petitions do not

23 qualify unless this artificial presumption remains.

24 And, finally, we'll leave to you the

25 credibility determination on Mr. Runta and whether or




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1 not he is in fact a member of the Libertarian Party

2 at the time that he did in fact circulate the

3 petitions. But what we know is that other than

4 Mr. Runta there is no legitimate argument that any of

5 these people were members of the Libertarian Party.

6 As such, we would ask that their

7 petitions, as well as those of Hart and Hatchett, be

8 declared invalid and stricken and that the

9 Libertarian candidates, who've been propped up by the

10 Democratic Party as a means of opposing the incumbent

11 Governor, be declared off the ballot.

12 Thank you so much for your consideration

13 and courtesy.

14 HEARING OFFICER: All right. I thank all

15 of you. This has been, again, very difficult given

16 the tight time frames that we need to work with under

17 the statute and under the practical need to inform

18 the election boards of what they need to do in terms

19 of printing ballots, so I appreciate everybody's

20 cooperation on that. And then, again, with the

21 possibility of a few late submissions to the record,

22 we will close this hearing.

23 We have another hearing for Mister -- the

24 challenge to Mr. Linnabary's candidacy and we haven't

25 had a break since lunch. I know that hearing is not




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1 going to go a long time, I think it may not, at

2 least, from my conversations with counsel, but I was

3 going to suggest that we take a break until 4:15 and

4 we will begin that hearing at 4:15. That's about 30

5 minutes from now.

6 And in the interim I think that the staff

7 here at the Secretary of State's office, which has

8 been incredibly helpful, has probably already taken

9 care of this, but we will want to make sure people

10 are on notice that we may need to run past normal

11 working hours, we want to try to do that and finish

12 this up here today. So, with that, this hearing is

13 closed and we will resume at 4:15 with the hearing on

14 Mr. Linnabary. Thank you.

15 (Recess taken.)

16 HEARING OFFICER: We will call to order

17 this hearing. This is a protest hearing. I lost my

18 caption page. The protest of Carl Michael Akers

19 challenging the certificate of -- the certification

20 of Steven R. Linnabary as a Libertarian Party

21 candidate for Attorney General.

22 We have here, representing the

23 protestors, David Kennedy and, I'm sorry, Mr. Rieser,

24 your first name was?

25 MR. RIESER: David.




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1 HEARING OFFICER: David Rieser. I'm

2 sorry. And Mark Brown for the candidates.

3 And at this point I'll -- all of you have

4 gotten a list of the procedures for the protest

5 hearing. I'll just remind you, as I have earlier,

6 and I think most of you have heard this already, this

7 is an informal hearing, we're not bound by particular

8 Rules of Evidence. If I think the evidence will be

9 probative and possibly beneficial, we'll admit it and

10 give it the weight that it would then seem to serve

11 at the appropriate time.

12 Similarly, I'm not sure we're going to

13 have much in the way of witnesses here, but I will

14 give you a lot of leeway to examine witnesses as you

15 like. If you think it would speed the testimony

16 along to be leading, even if they're friendly

17 witnesses, we're not, again, bound by some of these

18 strict rules. Our goal is to, of course, get to the

19 truth as it is in a trial, but we have a certain

20 flexibility that's added that's nice for us here

21 today.

22 Now, my understanding is that the parties

23 have agreed to stipulate much of the record with the

24 witnesses in this case. In fact, correct me if I'm

25 mistaken, but I believe the stipulation is to accept




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1 all relevant testimony and exhibits submitted in the

2 challenge we just heard, the protest of Gregory

3 Felsoci against Charles Earl and Sherry Clark; is

4 that correct?

5 Mr. Rieser, Mr. Kennedy; is that correct?

6 MR. RIESER: Yes, your Honor, that is

7 correct.

8 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Brown?

9 MR. BROWN: That is correct.

10 HEARING OFFICER: All right. So we will

11 do that. So we will have that hearing record, again

12 there were parts of that certainly that won't be

13 relevant to this, but those parts that are relevant

14 will all be considered part of this hearing record.

15 With that, I will offer each of you a few

16 minutes to make an opening statement if you wish to

17 do so; it's not required. Again, if the protestors

18 wish to make an opening statement that might help me

19 sort out the facts or questions of law in this case.

20 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, your Honor. Very

21 briefly.

22 HEARING OFFICER: Sure.

23 MR. KENNEDY: I think we all agree that

24 there's been substantial discussion on the issues and

25 I think they've been well vetted before the Professor




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1 today.

2 Mr. Akers' issue involves some slight

3 differences. The first issue to be resolved,

4 obviously, is the substantiative issue of the

5 application of Ohio Revised Code 3501.38(E)(1), the

6 requirement that a petition circulator, in their

7 circulation statement, properly disclose their

8 employer.

9 The second is the question, I think, of

10 standing that's been raised by Mr. Brown regarding

11 Mr. Akers' standing to bring this complaint. We're

12 going to put forth evidence and information that

13 indicates Mr. Akers is properly able to maintain

14 standing as a member of the Libertarian Party of Ohio

15 and bring forth an election protest by nature of his

16 First Amendment right to association and his choice

17 to be associated and affiliated with the Libertarian

18 Party of Ohio. Similar to the testimony of the folks

19 from earlier on today who, by nature of their own

20 choice, chose to be affiliated with the Libertarian

21 Party of Ohio for the purpose of circulating their

22 petitions.

23 Second, even if the Court were to find

24 that Mr. Akers lacks standing to bring an election

25 protest as a member of the Libertarian Party, the law




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1 and the evidence indicates that the Ohio Secretary of

2 State has an independent obligation to enforce the

3 laws of the State of Ohio and to enforce the

4 substantive provision of RC 3501.38(E) regardless of

5 whether a protest is properly brought by a member of

6 a political party or not.

7 That's all we have today. Thank you,

8 sir.

9 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Thank you.

10 Mr. Brown, you've had an opening

11 statement before, I don't know if there are other

12 issues in this case that you think deserves mention,

13 so please.

14 MR. BROWN: Just the standing issue, your

15 Honor. The LPO bylaws which we exhibited -- which we

16 submitted as Exhibit 1 -- it's been a long day.

17 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, it has.

18 MR. BROWN: Specifically state, and I

19 quote: "Membership in the party shall consist of

20 registered voters who participate in the Libertarian

21 Primary or otherwise cause their voter affiliation in

22 the state voter database to be 'Libertarian.'"

23 That's the Libertarian Party of Ohio's requirement.

24 In addition, protestors are treated

25 differently from circulators and signers.




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1 Circulators and singers are considered to be party

2 members if they have not voted in the primary of

3 another party within the preceding two calendar

4 years. That consideration does not extend literally

5 in the statute to protestors. Instead, a protestor

6 must actually be a party member under Ohio law; and

7 if not under Ohio law, then under the LPO's bylaws.

8 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Thank you.

9 I will turn to the protestors then and

10 allow you to make your case. I don't know if you

11 have witnesses you want to call other than those that

12 we've seen this morning whose testimony has been

13 incorporated. If there are, please proceed.

14 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, sir. We would

15 like to call Mr. Carl Michael Akers.

16 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Akers, I think you

17 might have seen this, we're asking the witnesses to

18 take a seat at this end of the dais and to use that

19 microphone.

20 MR. AKERS: Yes, sir.

21 HEARING OFFICER: And I will ask the

22 reporter to swear you in for your testimony.

23 - - -

24 CARL MICHAEL AKERS





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3 By Mr. Kennedy:

4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Akers. Would

5 you please identify yourself and give your voting

6 address for the record.

7 A. I will. My name is Carl Michael Akers.

8 My address is 8271 Cleveland Avenue Northwest,

9 Westerville, Ohio 43081.

10 Q. And do you know how long you have been

11 registered to vote at that address?

12 A. Three and a half years, I believe, sir.

13 Q. Okay. Have you voted either party's --

14 in a party's primary in the preceding two calendar

15 years?

16 A. No, I have not.

17 Q. Okay. What was the last election that

18 you voted in?

19 A. Primary election?

20 Q. No. Just the last election.

21 A. General Election 2012.

22 Q. Okay. And the last primary election that

23 you might have voted in?

24 A. 2004.

25 Q. Okay. In the past, have you voted for




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1 members of the Democratic Party?

2 A. I have.

3 Q. Have you voted for members of the

4 Republican Party?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Have you considered voting for members of

7 other parties?

8 A. I have.

9 Q. Including candidates for the Libertarian

10 Party?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Okay. Do you typically contribute money

13 to political candidates?

14 A. No, I do not.

15 Q. Okay. Do you remember the last time that

16 you made a contribution?

17 A. I have never made a contribution.

18 Q. When you choose to support a political

19 candidate with your vote, do you do it based on

20 solely party affiliation or based upon the

21 candidate's stated philosophy?

22 A. Based upon the philosophy, yes.

23 Q. And, to the best of your knowledge, what

24 is the philosophy of the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

25 A. To me, I think Jefferson said it best




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1 when he said simply that the government that governs

2 least, governs best. And I think that encapsulates

3 it, I can embrace that, and under that premise I am

4 there.

5 Q. I understand that you can embrace it. Do

6 you embrace it?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Okay. And have you reviewed some of the

9 information from the Libertarian Party of Ohio's

10 website?

11 A. I have.

12 Q. And they state that if you are fiscally

13 responsible and socially accepting, you are a

14 Libertarian; is that correct?


16 Q. Are you fiscally responsible and socially

17 accepting?

18 A. I am.

19 Q. Okay. As you sit here today, do you wish

20 to be affiliated with the Libertarian Party of Ohio?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And as you were -- as you sat there -- as

23 you signed your election protest on February 21st,

24 2014, did you wish to be affiliated with the





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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. To the best of your knowledge, are you

3 eligible to vote in the upcoming election for Ohio

4 Attorney General?

5 A. Yes, I am.

6 Q. And on the candidacy of Steven Linnabary?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. On February 21st you reviewed a series of

9 petitions; is that correct?


11 Q. And those petitions bore the signature of

12 Mr. Oscar Hatchett, Jr.

13 A. I'm sorry?

14 Q. And those petitions bore the signature of

15 Oscar Hatchett, Jr.?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And those petitions, which have already

18 been submitted to the Court -- to the Secretary as

19 evidence, did not bear any statement at all on the

20 second page regarding their employer, correct?

21 A. No, they did not.

22 Q. Was there any kind of information

23 whatsoever in the petition circulator's statement

24 that would indicate that Mr. Hatchett was a paid

25 circulator of any sort?




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1 A. No.

2 Q. Mr. Akers, do you think political parties

3 should follow the law on the circulation of their

4 petitions?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Do you believe that if there is a

7 sanction against Mr. Linnabary's candidacy, for

8 instance, the petition parts circulated by Oscar

9 Hatchett are invalidated, do you think the

10 Libertarian Party of Ohio would be more careful in

11 the future?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Do you think that if the Libertarian

14 Party is more careful in the future, they will derive

15 some benefit from these proceedings?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 MR. KENNEDY: I have no more questions

18 for Mr. Akers.

19 HEARING OFFICER: I wanted to ask one

20 question here just because -- actually, two things

21 very briefly.

22 You were asked if you had voted for

23 Democratic candidates in the past and you said yes,

24 you were asked if you voted for Republican candidates

25 in the past and I believe you said yes, and then you




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1 were asked had you considered voting for Libertarian

2 Party candidates in the past, and I was going to ask

3 that question framed in the same way: Have you voted

4 for the Libertarian Party candidates in the past?

5 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I have not.

6 HEARING OFFICER: And the other question,

7 correct me, Mr. Kennedy, you asked about a statement

8 that appears on the Libertarian Party website.

9 MR. KENNEDY: It's Exhibit D.

10 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We have that as

11 an exhibit. I just wanted to make sure.

12 MR. KENNEDY: It is. It's not as clear

13 on the exhibit. I came back to it so there was a

14 record identifying what the exhibit was.

15 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Very good. I

16 just wanted to be clear on that. Thank you.

17 Mr. Brown.

18 - - -


20 By Mr. Brown:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Akers.

22 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.

23 Q. Are you perhaps familiar with the LPO's

24 bylaws?

25 A. Somewhat.




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255

1 Q. Have you read the bylaw, and I'll quote,

2 that says: "Membership in the party shall consist of

3 registered voters who participate in the Libertarian

4 Party Primary or otherwise cause their voter

5 affiliation in the state voter database to be

6 'Libertarian'"?

7 A. Now I'm aware of that.

8 Q. Did you -- have you, in the past, ever

9 voted in the Libertarian Party primary?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. Have you caused your voter affiliation to

12 be shifted or to be listed as Libertarian Party in

13 the State voter database?

14 A. No, I haven't. As you know, currently

15 I'm registered as unaffiliated and that gives me the

16 latitude, if you would, to look at platform, to look

17 at party, and to look at the person and the integrity

18 factor, and then base my decision therewith. As I

19 look at the tenants of the Libertarian Party, I find

20 that very, very embraceable, I do so.

21 Q. Have you ever donated money to the LPO?

22 A. No, sir, I have not.

23 Q. And I think the Hearing Officer,

24 Professor Smith, has already discovered that you've

25 never voted for a Libertarian Party of Ohio




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256

1 candidate.

2 A. No, sir, I have not.

3 MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Akers, that's

4 all I have.

5 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Kennedy, do you

6 want to redirect at all?

7 - - -


9 By Mr. Kennedy:

10 Q. Do you remember the last time that a

11 Libertarian candidate appeared on the ballot that you

12 were able to vote for them in a primary?

13 A. Since I have not voted in 2004 in a

14 primary, I don't -- I don't know.

15 MR. KENNEDY: Okay. Thank you. No

16 further questions.


18 Mr. Akers.

19 MR. BROWN: I'd like to call Kevin

20 Knedler --

21 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Well, let me

22 first ask the protestors --

23 MR. BROWN: Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry.

24 HEARING OFFICER: -- if they have any

25 other witnesses. The way you were turning I wasn't




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257

1 sure if you were about to -- wanted to get to the

2 podium again. And, again, I'll let you do multiple

3 rounds of direct and redirect if you folks would want

4 to do that. Again, it's one of the pleasures of this

5 format.

6 Thank you, Mr. Akers. You're excused.

7 Mr. Kennedy, do you have anyone else that

8 you would wish to call at this --

9 MR. KENNEDY: No. We have no further

10 witnesses.

11 HEARING OFFICER: Again, I'd note that

12 we've agreed that some testimony will be carried over

13 into this.

14 Mr. Brown.

15 MR. BROWN: Just one quick question of

16 Mr. Knedler.

17 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Although we're

18 keeping the record, I think it will be, although the

19 testimony from earlier carries over, perhaps it's

20 best to re-swear in Mr. Knedler, just lest there be

21 any questions at all since this is technically a

22 separate hearing. So I'll ask you to swear in

23 Mr. Knedler.

24 - - -

25 KEVIN J. KNEDLER




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4 By Mr. Brown:

5 Q. Mr. Knedler, are you affiliated with the


7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. In what capacity?

9 A. I'm the executive committee chairman of

10 the State party and I'm also a member of the national

11 party.

12 Q. How long have you been the chair of the

13 LPO?

14 A. Summer of 2007.

15 Q. Has the LPO conducted primaries in Ohio

16 since 2007?

17 A. Since 2007, we had one in 2010, we've had

18 one in 2012, and now hopefully 2014.

19 MR. BROWN: No further questions, your

20 Honor.


22 Mr. Kennedy?

23 MR. KENNEDY: No, your Honor. Thank you.

24 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Thank you,

25 Mr. Knedler.




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1 Mr. Brown, anybody else?

2 MR. BROWN: We rest.

3 HEARING OFFICER: All right. Well, this

4 was a very pleasant, concise hearing, although

5 admittedly it helped that a lot of other people went

6 through some hard work on this earlier today.

7 We have all of the exhibits admitted. We

8 have the ones from the earlier hearing to the extent

9 they are relevant. We have the exhibits that are

10 attached to the brief that was submitted by the

11 protestors and by Mr. Brown's brief.

12 Is there anything else that we need to be

13 sure we get on the record?

14 MR. KENNEDY: Do you want to do closings?

15 MR. BROWN: I'll waive closing if you

16 will.

17 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And then if -- I

18 will say if you want to do a few minutes of closing,

19 Mr. Brown?

20 MR. BROWN: I'll waive if he will.

21 MR. KENNEDY: I have a few minutes. I'm

22 not going to -- we're not going to take all day, I

23 promise.

24 HEARING OFFICER: Do you want to go

25 first, Mr. Kennedy? We'll let you go first.




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1 Mr. Brown seems concerned about the possibility of

2 rebuttal, I think, so perhaps --

3 MR. KENNEDY: Which is fine.

4 HEARING OFFICER: -- we'll dispense with

5 the ceremony on the order and ask you if you want

6 to --

7 MR. KENNEDY: I'd be happy to, your

8 Honor. Thank you very much.

9 Your Honor, the substantive issue

10 regarding Revised Code 3501.38(E), we've heard it go

11 back and forth, it's a question of whether or not it

12 is a technical statute which maybe you have to comply

13 with it, maybe you don't have to comply with it, the

14 statute says "shall."

15 The Secretary of State has issued a

16 number of directives regarding particularities of

17 what has to be in there. Just some sort of technical

18 defect in your effort to disclose that you're a paid

19 circulator on your petition circulator statement

20 invalidated it, for instance, are you an independent

21 contractor, are you employed by the Libertarian Party

22 of Ohio. Your Honor, we don't contend that the

23 particularities would matter as much as the effort to

24 comply with the law as it is.

25 If Mr. Hatchett, as he testified earlier,




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1 is an independent contractor who was employed by --

2 who operates under a trade name and submits bills to

3 the Libertarian Party of Ohio under a trade name, if

4 that's his business and he is self-employed, then

5 he's under an obligation to disclose that, that he is

6 a paid circulator, that he works for that company,

7 that he's receiving compensation for this. That was

8 -- that was the essence of the Evans case that has

9 been submitted by Mister -- by Professor Brown.

10 This statute was created for the purpose

11 of protecting against fraud in elections and it's a

12 series of fraud. The Tenth District case that was

13 presented by Professor Brown also speaks to the vast

14 legislative intent of reasonable disclosure of who's

15 involved in the petition circulation process stemming

16 from significant fraud that took place in 2004.

17 Petition circulators working for

18 companies, who are paid on a per-signature basis,

19 swapped names out, made up names, illegally

20 registered voters, circulated petitions in the name

21 of people that didn't exist. The Quinn memo that was

22 submitted by Professor Brown lists extensively the

23 series of fraudulent acts that had taken place during

24 that election that led to the creation of this

25 statute.




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1 And so, your Honor, what we would submit

2 is that when a-good faith effort is made to disclose

3 an employer, whether it's the Libertarian Party of

4 Ohio is the employer or whether it is the ballot

5 access company that Mr. Hatchett owns or works for,

6 it's a little unclear which that is, and just

7 described himself as the person that he is the

8 employer of, to circulate these petitions, then that

9 would be arguably sufficient.

10 What makes this case different than all

11 of the others that have been argued by Professor

12 Brown and the Libertarian Party of Ohio is that

13 Mr. Hatchett made no disclosure of his status as a

14 paid circulator and, as a result, a person that's

15 reviewing a petition does not, first, have the

16 opportunity to decide, "I heard about all of this

17 fraud in 2004, do I want to give this person my live

18 signature on this ballot, on this petition, or do I

19 not want to?"

20 So the voter is first denied the

21 opportunity to make that reasoned choice whether or

22 not offering their signature in this particular

23 instance to this unknown person who's employed is

24 something they want to do.

25 Second, it denies the Secretary of State




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1 the opportunity for follow-up enforcement.

2 Disclosing who the employer is, while to some may

3 seem like a technical act, creates a paper trail, a

4 path by which the Secretary of State can cut to the

5 chase and try to figure out who is circulating

6 petitions.

7 You may recall that in the 2004 Ralph

8 Nader case, one circulator had completely taken

9 signatures from another petition and transferred them

10 over, I think it was an Equal Rights of Marriage

11 Petition, a Same Sex Marriage Petition, and then

12 taken those names and put them onto the Ralph Nader

13 petition in order to get Mr. Nader onto the ballot.

14 The employer provisions of the circulator

15 statement allowed the Secretary of State to go

16 directly to the source of these things and find out

17 what kind of supervision is taking place.

18 If, for instance, in the case of

19 Mr. Hatchett, Mr. Hatchett is employing himself, it's

20 fine, then the Secretary of State knows that

21 presumably there's no boss to go to, there's no

22 second company, there's no additional people we need

23 to follow up with as the employer.

24 But if they have, for instance, the

25 American Cancer Society, as was the case in Evans,




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1 then the Secretary of State can say okay, we know

2 this is the source of funds, we know people we can

3 talk to, we can ask them about their efforts to

4 supervise this petition effort.

5 They're not mere technicalities. They're

6 very important disclosures made for the purpose of

7 protecting the public interest which is to prevent

8 fraud in elections.

9 Regarding Mr. Akers' standing. We've

10 heard a lot of discussion about whether or not you

11 can just freely associate with the political party of

12 your choice.

13 I think it's somewhat -- disingenuous is

14 the wrong word, but it is not -- it is not consistent

15 to say that you can have Democratic-affiliated

16 individuals circulate a petition for the Libertarian

17 Party and that is okay, but it's not okay for someone

18 who shares the philosophical tenants of the

19 Libertarian Party to assert his own philosophical

20 beliefs as being aligned with the Libertarian Party

21 for the purpose of raising a valid issue before the

22 Secretary of State as is authorized by law.

23 I would contend that any person that

24 wishes to be a member of a political party is

25 eligible to be a member of that pollical party at any




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265

1 time that they may so choose.

2 For instance, young associates at a law

3 firm may choose to become associated with the

4 Republican Party if they find that the partners of

5 the law firm are all Republicans, because they feel

6 that that may advance their career. That is in no

7 way, shape, or form wrong. They can be members of

8 the Republican Party.

9 College students often affiliate

10 themselves with political parties or political

11 interests for all kinds of reasons, some of which

12 occasionally have to do with the politics of the

13 matter as well. They're perfectly entitled to do

14 that and they're perfectly entitled to establish

15 membership in any organization that they want to.

16 It's a right that's guaranteed by the First

17 Amendment, the freedom to association.

18 Even if the Court were to look at this

19 and determine that based on the bylaws of the party,

20 that I'm sure no one but the Central Committee has

21 read, then the Secretary of State still has an

22 independent obligation to enforce the election laws

23 of the state of Ohio.

24 There are two different provisions that

25 regulate the conduct of an election protest. Both of




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1 them refer specifically to a protest. The process

2 that's laid out in 3501.39(A)(1) and (2) deal

3 specifically with the provisions of an election

4 protest: Being a member of the political party,

5 being an elector, being eligible to vote at the next

6 election.

7 But section (A)(3) specifically grants

8 the Secretary of State the power to act when the

9 evidence and information presents substantial

10 evidence that someone has violated election law. And

11 that section of code actually requires, it says that

12 the Secretary of State shall invalidate that petition

13 if he finds that some other section of law has been

14 violated in the circulating petition.

15 Your Honor, we think that there's been

16 preponderance of the evidence to establish that Oscar

17 Hatchett, Jr. circulated petitions on behalf of

18 Steven Linnabary, that he did so as a paid petition

19 circulator, that in his petition circulating

20 statement he did not disclose any employer nor make

21 any effort to disclose an employer either through

22 filing of a form under -- a Form 15 under section

23 3501.38 -- 381, or in terms of how he signed the

24 petition circulator statement itself, the small box,

25 and that box does a lot.




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1 Your Honor, as a result of his failure to

2 sign -- to provide the information of his employer on

3 that part-petition, all of those part-petitions

4 should be invalidated and the Secretary of State must

5 then reevaluate the number of valid signatures on

6 Mr. Linnabary's petition and determine whether or not

7 he is qualified to be a candidate on the ballot.

8 Thank you.

9 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Brown.

10 MR. BROWN: He made me do it.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. BROWN: Just a couple of things, your

13 Honor. First, the employer statement is not affixed

14 until after the circulation is complete. So it's not

15 like signers are being defrauded in any way because

16 it's not going to be on there while they're signing

17 the petition.

18 Instead, if you look at the form, the way

19 the form is, it's the box at the very bottom, it's

20 filled out after the circulation is complete. It has

21 to be, actually, because the circulator, when he

22 fills it out is basically saying I collected all of

23 these signatures as an employee of this company. So

24 he's got to get all the signatures before he can fill

25 it out. It's not just on there. So there's no way




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1 you can defraud electors by not including it.

2 No. 2, there's no requirement that the

3 circulators file any Form 15. That's just not a

4 relevant issue.

5 No. 3, even if the circulators screw up

6 the employer statement, and I think we heard a lot of

7 testimony today strongly suggesting that it can

8 happen. We had one circulator who was an intern and

9 I think he did put down that he was employed by

10 Strategy Network. Well, I think he was telling the

11 truth, he thought he was employed, but, again, it's

12 all very complicated.

13 What about an independent contractor?

14 Does an independent contractor have to disclose he's

15 his own employer? Does he have to put his own

16 address again, which is already there in the other

17 box? I mean that's the kind of very technical stuff

18 that we're dealing with for that reason.

19 The Secretary, on two occasions, at least

20 two, has issued directives. Directive 2006-58, and

21 this is in the brief, your Honor, I apologize for

22 being redundant -- but you made me do it.

23 MR. KENNEDY: I know.

24 MR. BROWN: -- issued by Secretary

25 Blackwell states that, quote, Do not -- this is




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1 directions to election boards -- Do not invalidate a

2 part-petition if the employer information statement

3 is blank or incomplete.

4 Secretary Brunner, in Directive 2007-14,

5 reiterated again, do not invalidate a part-petition

6 if the employer information statement is blank or

7 incomplete.

8 We have two formal directives from the

9 Secretary of State, neither of which has been

10 rescinded, stating that the employer statement is a

11 technicality and if it's blank or incomplete you do

12 not use that to invalidate signatures.

13 And in this case, all the circulators --

14 or, I should say Hatchett anyway, he left it blank,

15 Sara Hart left it blank. So it's a technicality, it

16 cannot be used to invalidate their part-petitions.

17 And I think we're done, your Honor.

18 Thank you.


20 Anything else that needs to be noted for

21 the record?

22 I will note that we will add to the

23 record, I think it was noted, but we will add to the

24 record just so it's there, a copy of the procedures

25 that were used at these hearings, we'll add that in.




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1 And if there's nothing else, then I thank

2 you for your time and this hearing is closed.

3 (Thereupon, the proceedings concluded at

4 4:48 p.m.)

5 - - -

6 CERTIFICATE

7 I do hereby certify that the foregoing is a

8 true and correct transcript of the proceedings taken

9 by me in this matter on Tuesday, March 4, 2014, and

10 carefully compared with my original stenographic

11 notes.

12 _______________________________

Carolyn M. Burke, Registered

13 Professional Reporter, and

Notary Public in and for the

14 State of Ohio.

15 My commission expires July 17, 2018.

16 - - -

17

18

19

20

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22

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