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PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Speaker: Hon. Carolyn Bertram Hansard, Published by Order of the Legislature

Second Session of the Sixty-fourth General Assembly

Friday, 4 May 2012 MATTERS OF PRIVILEGE AND RECOGNITION OF GUESTS ..................................................................................... 898 STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS................................................................................................................................... 901

EVANGELINE-MISCOUCHE (Canadian Blood Services) .............................................................................. 901 TRACADIE-HILLSBOROUGH PARK (Dave and Michelle Thompson) .............................................................. 901 STRATFORD-KINLOCK (Canada-Wide Science Fair) .................................................................................. 902

ORAL QUESTIONS .............................................................................................................................................. 902

LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (HST re: Home Heating) ............................................................................. 902 LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (HST and Children) .................................................................................... 903 LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (HST Support-further) ................................................................................. 904 GEORGETOWN-ST. PETERS (Premier and Travel to India) .......................................................................... 905 TIGNISH-PALMER ROAD (HW Minister and MLA) ....................................................................................... 907 TIGNISH-PALMER ROAD (Dialysis Services-further) ..................................................................................... 908 STRATFORD-KINLOCK (Liquor Commission Employees) ............................................................................. 910 ALBERTON-ROSEVILLE (Alberton Committee) ............................................................................................ 911 ALBERTON-ROSEVILLE (Western Hospital) ................................................................................................. 911 BELFAST-MURRAY RIVER (Supply Management System) ............................................................................... 911 STRATFORD-KINLOCK (Liquor Commission Employees-further) ................................................................... 913 SOURIS-ELMIRA (Dialysis Services-further) ................................................................................................. 913 SOURIS-ELMIRA (Government Plans) ........................................................................................................ 915

STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS ................................................................................................................................. 916

ENVIRONMENT, LABOUR AND JUSTICE AND ATTORNEY GENERAL (Emergency Preparedness Week) ........... 916 TOURISM AND CULTURE (Cruise Ship Season) ......................................................................................... 916 HEALTH AND WELLNESS (National Nurses Week) ...................................................................................... 917

TABLING OF DOCUMENTS .................................................................................................................................. 918 ORDERS OF THE DAY (GOVERNMENT) ................................................................................................................. 918

ESTIMATES ............................................................................................................................................. 918 HEALTH PEI .............................................................................................................................. 919

ADJOURNED ....................................................................................................................................................... 945

HANSARD PEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY 4 MAY 2012

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The Legislature met at 10:00 a.m. Speaker: Good morning, everyone.

Matters of Privilege and Recognition of Guests

Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, it truly is a great day to rise in the House and welcome all the guests in the gallery. Looks like we’ve got a full gallery today. I know we’ve got some students here from Holland College which are in the LINC Program. The instructors here today are Lorraine Beck and Mary Jaeger. I do extend a welcome to those and to all the regular guests that we have in the gallery, too. Extend a welcome there and best wishes on this day. I also extend a welcome to the folks out watching on EastLink and hope they have a great day. The weather is just phenomenal. This is day five in a row that’s just out of this world for the fishermen, the farmers. It’s just been a great stretch of weather and hopefully it’s a nice weekend so we can get our yard work done, shrubs fixed up and things that we need to do around our home. Truly is with regrets and condolences that I extend best wishes to the Louis McIsaac family. Louis passed away yesterday about 3:00 p.m. in the afternoon. I did have the privilege of sitting on some boards and committees with Louis McIsaac. He was a great ambassador for the agriculture community. He was also a great ambassador for the harness racing industry. Just a great individual that lived a great life. Certainly, he’ll be missed by his family and his community as well. Also, with a heavy heart, I do extend condolences to the family of Susan Harvey who passed away two days ago. She was a great civil servant - passed away unexpectedly – without question, at the age of 49. A very sad thing. She worked for government for many years and just was a great family lady with a great reputation in

the community. She’ll sadly be missed by her husband and her family and so on. It’s with regret that we pass on those condolences. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Leader of the Opposition: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’d like to rise, too, and on behalf of opposition also send out condolences to the McIsaac family. I also would like to welcome many visitors in the gallery today. My own mother-in-law, Nanny Shirley, is with us and my aunt Janice. Welcome. In addition to that, we have Heber Ross and his mother Pearle that’s with us today and I’d like to say hello to them as well. We’d like to welcome all the LINC students from Holland College and their instructors. When you look at the great programs that Holland College does – last night I was lucky enough to be at the adult education recognition ceremonies at Morell. Life is really about lifelong learning so we want to encourage all people that it’s never too late. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Charlottetown-Sherwood. Mr. Mitchell: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, would like to rise and welcome everybody to the gallery today. As mentioned by the deputy premier, we have a very full gallery today and it’s great to see so many in today. There are some regular visitors, it’s good to have you back. But I do want to make special mention to Shirley Affleck and Janice Crane who are with us today. It’s good to have them here. I mentioned to Shirley before in the past, as soon as I saw her in the House I would be sure to stand and recognize her, as Shirley


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and Janice and I have roots from the same area. It’s good to have you with us today. Also, too, I also would like to pass on my condolences to the Louis McIsaac family. Louis was a great friend of mine, a really great friend of my dad, and of course, most know, a really great Liberal. To everybody associated to this man, deepest condolences from myself and my family. As well, I’d like to remind all those that might be listening today via the Internet or on EastLink, from the Sherwood area or in fact from all the Charlottetown area, I’d like to remind them of the annual yard and bake sale that’s going on this Saturday morning between 8:00 and 11:00 a.m. at St. Mark’s Presbyterian Church on the corner of Brackley Point Road, Pine Drive. You will get all kinds of great buys and you’ll see the best homemade biscuits and homemade bread in Charlottetown from there on Saturday morning. Just a little reminder for that. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Mr. Myers: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, would like to welcome everybody here today and all those following along on EastLink. Heber and Pearle for coming in today. It’s great to see you here. Nanny Shirley, I’ve been hearing lots about your cooking, and certainly when the House closes in July I only live 15 minutes from Mount Stewart, I might take a pop over and find out for myself. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville. Mr. Murphy: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s a pleasure to rise in the House and welcome all those guests in the public gallery, as well as all those that may be watching at home.

I’d like to send out birthday greetings to a good constituent , Cheryl Horne, it’s her birthday today. I’d like to also mention I did attend the meeting in Alberton last night and there was some 300 people at that meeting. I would just like to thank all those individuals for taking the time to attend the meeting and letting their concerns be known. Thank you, Madam Speaker. An Hon. Member: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Mr. LaVie: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Welcome all members back again today, and anybody watching on EastLink, and especially the people in the gallery. Heber Ross and his mother Pearle are here today. Heber is not in my district, he’s in District 2, but we meet once in awhile. He’s a fellow firefighter and with mutual aid we see each other once in awhile. Their daughter Lindsay would be here today but Lindsay is on dialysis in Souris today. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Minister of Community Services and Seniors. Ms. Docherty: Thank you, Madam Speaker. What a gorgeous day we have to end the week, and a welcome to everybody in the gallery today and those watching us, of course, on EastLink. I, too, wish to express my deep concern and regret and sympathy to the McIsaac family. Louis, a great friend, constituent, husband, father, everything – great man. He’ll be missed by so many, although missed mostly by his family. It is an extreme loss to the community, and for that I send out my deepest sympathies to them. On a happier note, in the district we have the blessing of the boats at Nine Mile Creek wharf on Sunday for all of the fishers that will be going out for the lobster season, and


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for them I wish them a safe and yet a very productive fishing season. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Mr. Perry: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’d like to rise today and welcome everyone to the gallery, especially the students from Holland College in the Language Instruction for Newcomers to Canada program, along with their teachers, Lorraine and Mary. I would also like to say hi to Shirley and Janice in the gallery, and to everyone at home, I hope everyone has a very enjoyable and safe weekend. Thank you. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from West Royalty-Springvale. Mr. Dumville: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I, too, would like to welcome everybody here in the gallery, and say a special hello to all the residents out in West Royalty-Springvale. I, too, would like to recognize Heber. Heber and I are fraternity brothers, and I know he’s a great community man because I got down there one time in Kings County on my motorcycle, and it’s hard to get coin out of your pocket, but there Heber was with his firemen, with a big boot, and expected me to throw money in, and it’s kind of hard to do that without falling over. Anyway, he’s a great community man and we have a lot of laughs about that. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Summerside-St. Eleanors. Mr. Greenan: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

It’s indeed a pleasure to rise in the House today and welcome all our visitors to the gallery, and those watching on EastLink and following us online. I, too, would like to extend condolences to the Harvey family, especially Ricky, Susan’s husband, and her children, Jenna and Josh. Also to remind citizens of Summerside and area that Sunday afternoon at Credit Union Place we have our annual Walk for Hospice. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism and Culture. Mr. Henderson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, want to welcome those to the gallery here as well, and also to those that are watching on EastLink back in my riding of O’Leary-Inverness. Also I want to identify to the House that PEI Guitar Festival is going to be going on this – today and tomorrow, and I’m going to be emceeing at the Britannia Hall in Tyne Valley, and I think there’s also going to be performances at the Guild. I’m looking forward to hearing some really great guitar music and some of our Island performers. I also want to pass on condolences to the Harvey family on the passing of Susan. Rick, Josh and Jenna, they’re all family members of mine, and I wish them very well in trying to get through this troubled time, and take it from there. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Minister of Environment, Labour and Justice and Attorney General. Ms. Sherry: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, would like to rise and welcome a full gallery here to watch the proceedings on the floor.


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Also, I always like to remind my colleagues that we are serving democracy and we are the representatives of the people, so we need to be mindful of conducting ourselves in a way that we’ll be proud and great examples for all those viewing. I’d also like to wish everyone in my district and across the province a wonderful weekend. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader. Canadian Blood Services Mr. Gallant: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Canadian Blood Services is a not-for-profit charitable organization who manage blood and blood product supplies in Canada. They collect roughly 850,000 units of blood a year and thousands of patients benefit from these donations. A donation occurs at a clinic where a person voluntarily has blood drawn, which is then used in transfusions or made into medications. Human blood cannot be substituted, only blood from one person can save another. Blood donation is an act of charity that benefits many people. Approximately every minute of every day someone in Canada needs blood, and every pint of whole blood donated helps three to four people. Blood donations benefit accident victims and surgical patients. Some surgeries can use up to 10 pints of blood or more. People undergoing chemotherapy and radiation also may require blood transfusions. The benefits of giving blood does not stop at the patient. Often the donor also benefits. After completing a questionnaire a donor’s health is screened, blood pressure is checked and temperature taken. Once the health screening has been completed a qualified staff member of Canadian Blood Services will draw blood. Giving feels great, especially when you realize that one hour of your time and one pint of blood can help so

many people. The entire process takes about an hour. Islanders have always answered the call when donor clinics come to town. In 2001 the Canadian Blood Services began to hold mobile clinics at the Miscouche Rec Centre. It is not uncommon for potential donors to be turned away at the door in Miscouche due to all the appointments that have been booked. This June 4th, 5th and 6th people are encouraged to call 1-800-2DONATE to make an appointment for the Miscouche clinic or visit the Canadian Blood Services website for times in other areas of the province. On behalf of the members here in the Legislative Assembly I would like to thank staff of the Miscouche Rec Centre, the staff of Canadian Blood Services and especially our local donors. As the saying goes: Blood, it’s in you to give. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Tracadie-Hillsborough Park. Dave and Michelle Thompson Mr. Watts: Thank you, Madam Speaker. David and Michelle Thompson operated Dalvay-by-the-Sea, sharing the stories of this historic hotel. Recently, they received the 2012 Parks Canada Sustainable Tourism Award recognizing their 35-year commitment to managing Dalvay-by-the-Sea. I would just like to give the Reader’s Digest version of David and Michelle’s story about Dalvay. Dalvay was originally built as a summer home for Alexander MacDonald in 1896 at a cost of $50,000. After he passed away the property was left to his granddaughters, Helena and Laura, who in turn sold the property to the caretaker, William Hughes, after their fortune disappeared as a result of careless investing.


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After several owners, William O’Leary purchased the property and loaned it to his brother Bishop O’Leary, who used it as a summer retreat. The next famous owner was Captain Edward Dicks who used the property to smuggle rum. To hide his smuggling activities he turned the house into a hotel. After this failed it was sold to one of the captain’s creditors, former Lieutenant Governor George DeBlois. DeBlois turned the property over to the federal government so it could become part of the national park system. David’s grandparents took over operation of the hotel in 1959. In 1976, when David’s grandparents retired, he took over the helm. They passed over the reins to D.P. Murphy Hotels and Resorts last year. I want to congratulate David and Michelle Thompson on receiving this award. Without their dedication to preserving Dalvay-by-the-Sea’s story, much of it would have been lost. Their efforts have ensured locals and tourists alike can continue to enjoy its rich history. We have in the gallery with us today David and Michelle Thompson. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Canada-Wide Science Fair Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Today I rise to bring to everyone’s attention to a major event that’s upcoming. Between the dates of May 12th to the 19th in Charlottetown, but more specifically at the University of Prince Edward Island, the Canada-Wide Science Fair will be hosted. Canada-Wide Science Fair is a demonstration of Canada’s top young talent as it pertains to a variety of different scientific genres. This contest serves as the national championship, where finalists from regional science fairs across the country meet and compete in a demonstration of scientific excellence.

In bringing Canada’s top young scientists together, the Canada-Wide Science Fair aims to help participants benchmark their scientific achievements against those of their peers, but it also allows them to connect with role models who are knowledgeable in a variety of different scientific fields. I am proud to announce that this is the first time the Canada-Wide Science Fair is coming to this province in its 51-year history. This fantastic opportunity will mean that many of our Island’s youth will get to showcase their talents to many other youth across the country in a home field setting. I would also like to let the public know that there will be public viewings of the exhibits, and I urge as many Islanders as possible to get out and go in, walk through the exhibit hall at the university, and just soak up the knowledge that’s there. I mean, these are some of the brightest minds. The Canada-Wide Science Fair is a fantastic opportunity for this province and its youth. There will be well over 1,000 people involved in this event, between the participants – there are approximately 400 judges as well coming into the province to help judge all the projects, and it’s going to be a terrific economic impact to the Island through this conference. Therefore, I rise today to support the Canada-Wide Science Fair as it readies to come to this province, and I send my wishes of luck to all participants and congratulations to the host committee and volunteers who will be taking part in this event. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Responses to Questions Taken As Notice

Questions by Members Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HST re: home heating Leader of the Opposition: Thank you, Madam Speaker.


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The priorities of this government are simply not the priorities of Islanders. In fact, this government continues to attack Islanders by wanting to take $32 million out of their pockets. This government has become known as the government of spin. They spin, they say one thing, but they actually do the opposite. In regards to an exemption on home heating fuels, this government is exempting oil. But that’s not enough, because many people use wood pellets, they burn wood, propane, and electricity. My question is to the treasurer: Why are you not treating all Islanders the same? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance, Energy and Municipal Affairs. Mr. Sheridan: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. It’s a very good question, and these are the types of questions we need to talk about, the fact-based ones, with regard to harmonization and sales tax here on Prince Edward Island. We know, just looking back at the history of what harmonization has meant across this region, 10 premiers of all the leading parties have come and gone in the seats since 1997. None of them got rid of the harmonized sales tax and they did it for a very strong reason. They knew economically it was the best thing they could possibly do. With regard to what the hon. opposition leader is saying with regard to other heating sources, we exempted those that were of the nature that would save the environment in the previous taxation system. We have to review each and every one of those to go forward in the harmonization. What the opposition leader needs to know now is through consultation, through our pre-budget consultations this year, it was made very clear during our talk on harmonization that oil, through furnace heating oil, was the number one piece that Islanders wanted exempted. They made it very loud and clear. Ninety-four percent of all low- and modest-income Islanders heat their homes with oil. We can only exempt 5% of our total tax base. That’s all we’re allowed to exempt by federal rules.

In order to get children’s clothing and footwear, which was number two and three in the consultation – those were the three that are exempted. We have to do something special for anything else outside of that and we’re reviewing that. That’s what we’re going to talk to Islanders about as we go end to end. Thank you very much. Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HST and children Leader of the Opposition: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This is the treasurer that doesn’t have a priority to have the dollars for a 10-year old that has diabetes that needs to save their lunch money to go see a Family Ties worker. This is the treasurer that, again, treats somebody in one way in regards to home heating costs. There are many Island families that use wood, wood pellets, they have to use electricity because they turned over to that because they thought it was more greener. Also propane. But this treasurer, no, he doesn’t treat them fair. Everyday Islanders, the costs continue to rise. At the same time our Island families are struggling. Government’s turned their backs towards Islanders, seniors, individuals and families. My question to the deputy premier. Your government is set to increase the costs. Your treasurer says he’s going to protect children’s clothing, but we know when you bring in HST, if a child wears an adult size, there’s no protection there. You’re going to put HST on child’s seats, car seats, you’re going to put HST on (Indistinct) lessons, and that is simply not treating Island families fairly. To the deputy premier: Why? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, we take a great appreciation for treating all Islanders equal.


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Our tax system over the years has been developed that high-income earners pay more tax. Lower-income earners or modest-income earners pay less tax. We’ve developed our HST program to actually meet the needs of that. We have a 5% exemption, if you like, 5% of the product, the goods and services, that Islanders need and buy that we can exempt. That’s why we exempted home heating oil. Because that touches everyone on Prince Edward Island. Every child needs affordable clothing, good clothing, so we exempted what we could. High-income earners, like everyone in this room, will probably pay a little bit more tax, and that’s only fair because that reflects the Canadian system and the Prince Edward Island system. Mr. Myers: (Indistinct) Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Webster: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Leader of the Opposition: Thank you. Madam Speaker, last night I was speaking with a gentleman in Morell at the recognition ceremonies. He said he was thankful when he stopped about this governments decreasing, with the HST, the cost of a pleasure boat, decreasing that cost. At the same time he has to get back and forth to work. The cost for him is going to go up on the 9% increase on gas, the new fees that are going to go up. In addition to that, the electricity. What he said to me: Those are the basic costs and this government is taxing basic costs, they’re not taxing the luxury costs. There are people being fired right now, programs are being shut down, vital programs. When we look at dialysis, whether that’s Souris or Alberton. This government continues at the same time to say that: HST is good for them. But the reality – they talk about children’s clothing. An Hon. Member: Do you have a question?

Leader of the Opposition: What about the child that needs an adult size? Speaker: Question, hon. member. HST support (further) Leader of the Opposition: Madam Speaker, Islanders are tired. Right now the cost of getting a hair cut with HST, it’s going to go up. School supplies are going to go up. Question to the deputy premier: Do you actually believe that Islanders support you on bringing in the HST and this extra tax burden? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition always speaks about what is increased, and there are a few items that there is tax on now that there wasn’t. But the modelling we did said that a household – An Hon. Member: Speedboats are cheaper. (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Webster: – of $55,000 combined by two people will not pay any more tax. That’s what the modelling said. Lower- and modest-income earners will most likely, with a rebate, pay less. Mr. Myers (Indistinct) speed boat. Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader, order, please! Mr. Webster: Hon. member, we have developed a system that we believe Islanders are supporting. We’re getting a lot of comments that are out there that are positive. If we stand in this House and speak only of what goes up, is that fair? No, it isn’t. We need to speak of what’s dropped and what’s reduced. There’s a lot of taxes reduced, Madam Speaker. Thank you.


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Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Leader of the Opposition: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The costs that have been decreased through HST appear to be more luxury items. The cost of getting a haircut for your child, that’s a basic need, the cost of electricity, that’s a basic need. Island families? He’s talking about modeling. He just said on 55,000 for two people. Wouldn’t we be lucky it was just two people? There are many families across PEI that the entire family’s income is 55,000 gross with three and four children. Their costs are going to increase through the roof. My question to the deputy premier. The election was back on October 3rd. At that particular time you did have the support of Islanders in terms of being brought in as government. But the alarm bells are going off. That support is not there anymore. Are you willing to reconsider and take another look at HST? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, there’s been a lot of dialogue and consultation in the last few months on HST. We’ve looked at that as a party. We believe this is the right direction to go in. Our businesses here are at a competitive disadvantage from the other provinces. It’s more expensive to do business on Prince Edward Island than it is in New Brunswick. That is fundamentally not right. We are approaching the HST in a positive way. We believe that this will create a level playing field so businesses here can compete with Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and elsewhere in Canada. If we increase the competitiveness of our businesses, that in itself will generate wealth. We don’t want to damage or injure or hurt in any way low- and modest-income earners, and we’re not doing that. Some things are going up, some things are going down. There’s an equivalency in that, Madam Speaker, and I think it’s the way to approach this. Thank you.

Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Premier and travel to India Mr. Myers: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We talk a lot about how the government has to bail itself out of the trouble it’s gotten us into to and how we have to tighten our belts and stuff, and it’s quite ironic to hear this. We know that the Minister of Innovation and Advanced Learning, he travelled to India. Question for the Minister of Innovation and Advanced Learning: When you flew to India, did you travel with the Premier? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Innovation and Advanced Learning. Mr. Roach: Yes I did, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Mr. Myers: Thank you, Madam Speaker? Did you sit with him on the plane? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Innovation and Advanced Learning. Mr. Roach: Madam Speaker, I was on the same plane for part of the journey but I did not sit with him. Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Mr. Myers: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Now I know you didn’t sit with him. I knew that going out. You flew on the same flight with him. Your flight cost $2,851. The Premier’s flight, it cost $7,460. Mr. LaVie: Shame, shame! Mr. Myers: Clearly the Premier flew first-class over to India. Now we’re talking about people getting fired here all over Prince Edward Island. We’re talking about having to bring in a tax


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to raise the tax to help pay for your mismanagement. A question to the finance minister. You’re responsible for Treasury Board. You’re responsible for the finances of this province. Can you explain why the Premier thinks that he needs to travel to India first-class? Mr. Perry: What a shame. Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance, Energy and Municipal Affairs. Mr. Sheridan: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Before the hon. member stands up and makes allegations in the House he should get his details right. Let’s just make sure that that takes place. Thank you very much. Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Mr. Myers: Thank you, Madam Speaker. By travelling to India first-class, the Premier’s charging Islanders twice as much as he needs to charge them to travel to India. Twice as much. Now he did this while he’s cutting budgets. He’s telling Islanders that it’s a time of austerity and we need to tighten our belts. Can the minister of finance tell us, in a time that he describes as tight, why does the Premier feel he needs to fly first-class? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance, Energy and Municipal Affairs. Mr. Sheridan: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I’m not the Premier’s travel person – Mr. Myers: You’re the treasurer. Mr. Perry: You’re the treasurer. Mr. Sheridan: – but we will make sure that we have the facts. The Premier at that time had about three junkets that he was taking part in. I would

expect most of the additional costs were the added flight pieces. This administration has been very close in watching all of travel and we’ll continue to do that through Treasury Board, Madam Speaker, and there’s no question about it. Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Mr. Myers: It’s a pretty flagrant way of spending taxpayers’ dollars and then to come back and tell us that road workers have to be sent home, to tell us that a 10-year old has to save her lunch money to travel to see their workers. Dialysis people, they’ve got to leave. You’re pulling dialysis right out of Souris and right out of Alberton. Shameful. Question to the deputy premier: Do you feel the Premier should set an example to Islanders? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, we have a great Premier here in Prince Edward Island. He has great credentials – Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Webster: – and a very brilliant mind, and a great amount of respect throughout Canada and throughout the world. Absolutely, we always buy as affordable as we can buy. We would need to look into this issue to see if there were different legs on the flight. You can book a flight today and it’s this much money, and if you want to go in a shorter time or something, a different time frame when it’s booked, those prices can be different. Mr. Myers: Or first-class. Mr. Webster: They can be different. Mr. Myers: With your feet up. Mr. Webster: I don’t think it’s appropriate to make statements that may not be true.


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Let’s get the facts, Madam Speaker, and clarify it that way. Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Mr. Myers: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The facts are something this government seems to be lacking every single day. Now we’re telling Islanders: Islanders, you have to make sacrifices, you have to tighten your belt. The finance minister says the economic climate has changed. Wow, can you imagine, the economic climate has changed? We are in the new economic times. New economic times now, can you imagine? We’re in new economic times and first-class travel. This is new economic times, folks. Question to the finance minister: Can you tell Islanders how many road workers we could have kept on had the Premier not travelled first-class and had travelled the same class as the innovation minister? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance, Energy and Municipal Affairs. Mr. Sheridan: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. As the deputy premier has spoken, as I have spoken, the hon. member can wait until he has what has taken place. He went to three different destinations when he was going. This hon. Premier went over and brought 300 jobs back to Prince Edward Island. Not another province in this country would not send their Premier first-class. However, our Premier does not do that. He does it because of just the exact reasons that the hon. member is talking about – Mr. Myers: You have the facts now. You didn’t have them a minute ago. Mr. Sheridan: So it is very important we show a little bit of respect in this House to the Office of the Premier. The work that the Premier has done over the last number of months with regard to the travel and bringing these jobs back to Prince Edward Island is exactly what we’re brought into this office for.

Mr. Myers: No health centre in Murray River yet. First-class Premier. Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Sheridan: We’ll continue to do just that, Madam Speaker. We always take a look at the very best way in which to do that. Thank you very much. Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader. Mr. Myers: I’m done. Speaker: The hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Mr. Sheridan: Show a little respect, would you? Speaker: Order, please! HW minister and MLA Mr. Perry: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Minister of health. Clearly at the meeting – minister of health, yeah. Did you meet with the MLA from Alberton-Roseville a month ago to inform him of any health care changes coming to West Prince? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I have ongoing conversations with MLAs and opposition in respect to the challenges to maintain health services in the province of Prince Edward Island with intense costs, aging population. The challenges facing governments all across Canada are very clear. The challenge is to make sure that we continue to sustain – Mr. Perry: Is it yes or no? Mr. Currie: – services, and those conversations will continue to happen. Governments today, and governments in the past, have had –


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Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Currie: Have had to make decisions in health care whether it’s in urban or in rural, Madam Speaker. Thank you. Speaker: The hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Mr. Perry: Madam Speaker, I’ll ask the health minister again. Apparently he doesn’t understand. Did you meet with the Member from Alberton-Roseville a month ago to inform him of health care changes in West Prince? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I did meet with MLAs from across the province to look at scenarios. In the process in regard to budget, Health PEI presented a number of scenarios. We told Health PEI that they have a budget envelope of 3.5 or 4% increase. They came back to our government with scenarios and options to meet their budget targets and there was a range of policy decisions that need to be made. Some of those policy decisions from Health PEI were very direct and they were policy decisions that we, as government, were not prepared to make, and we were prepared to protect health care in rural Prince Edward Island, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Mr. Perry: Thank you, Madam Speaker. He did put a press release out. On April 2 he did meet with the MLAs, and it was confirmed last night in a meeting in Alberton that you did meet with that MLA, and it was on – give them a heads-up on the cuts in health care.

Minister, had I had the same courtesy, 30 days ago I would have been on top of this House screaming for the people of West Prince to keep their dialysis. But thank you for not inviting me. Minister of health, did you meet with the Member from Alberton-Roseville yesterday to discuss – or what did you discuss with him yesterday? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I did have a meeting. I did invite the Leader of the Opposition and the caucus to my office for a discussion on health care. I’ve been very open and transparent with the challenges facing health care in this province. The challenge facing the delivery of dialysis services – Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Currie: – is that we’ve seen a 75% increase in demand. We’re going to continue to see another 75% increase in demand. The challenge for ministers of health in this country are to protect and sustain services today, but make sure we have services into the future for our seniors and for families in all communities across Prince Edward Island, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Mr. Perry: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s great that this government has a Premier that likes to travel around the world first-class but treats the residents of West Prince as second-class citizens. Mr. Myers: Shame, shame! Dialysis services (further) Mr. Perry: That’s just shame, Madam Speaker.


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Minister of health, clearly at the meeting last night in Alberton over 300 people met regarding dialysis, and the residents don’t want any changes. No changes to the service, to the quality services, that are provided there. Minister, will you reconsider your decision and keep hemodialysis in Alberton? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. As the minister of health I’m committed to making sure that we build an integrated sustainable health care system and recognize and be very transparent and talk very openly to Islanders about the realities facing health care. We’ve got an aging population in the Province of Prince Edward Island. One in five seniors will be turning 65. We’re seeing intense growth in chronic disease in communities all across Prince Edward Island. My job as minister is to make sure that we make decisions – An Hon. Member: (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Currie: – and at times those are tough decisions, to protect services to make sure that we provide health care to Islanders into the future. These are decisions that governments all across the country are being forced to make. It is about health care today, but it has to be about health care into the future, Madam Speaker. Thank you very much. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Mr. Perry: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This minister loves to talk about talking to the people. He didn’t consult with anyone. He didn’t consult with the patients, he didn’t

consult with their families, nor did he consult with the staff at these dialysis centres. There was a productivity engineer who did a study and found Alberton hospital to be the most efficient of these dialysis services across the Island. But yet, he’s got to pull it out from West Prince. You’re talking about consultation. Why didn’t you come up and speak to those people? You’re talking about age. Alberton has probably one of the most aged amount of residents across this Island, but yet you’re going to make them travel an hour or two hours more? Minister, one resident last night at the meeting said that PEI is a first-class world country yet the people at West Prince are being treated as second-class citizens and they’re receiving third-world health care. Minister, why do you continue to attack the most vulnerable? When will the mistreatment of West Prince end? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I do want to remind the Member from Tignish-Palmer Road that it was only three years ago, as a province, that Island patients suffering with kidney disease had to spend eight weeks during their initial assessments in – Mr. Perry: This is 2012, speak about now. Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness has the floor. Mr. Currie: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It was only three years ago that patients that were diagnosed with dialysis had to spend a minimal of six to eight weeks in Halifax. We’re fortunate here on Prince Edward Island. In our sister province in Nova Scotia, the policy for access to dialysis is a minimal of 90 minutes to receive that treatment. We’re very fortunate here on Prince Edward Island that we do have a second nephrologist.


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When we came in in 2007 we had Dr. Chaudhary. We recognized at that point in time that we needed to meet the demand and the growth of kidney disease here in the Province of Prince Edward Island. We were fortunate, after a number of years of recruitment, to recruit Dr. Bruce Jones who is one of the finest nephrologists in Atlantic Canada. He’s very much engaged in the vision and plan, and he’s very passionate about making sure that we have the best dialysis services and the best care that we possibly can provide here on Prince Edward Island. As a government, as minister, I’m committed to that. Speaker: The hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Liquor commission employees Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Tourism and Culture responsible for the PEI Liquor Control Commission indicated to CBC a number of weeks ago he was cutting 10 full-time equivalents from the liquor control commission. Question to the minister responsible for the liquor control commission: How many people will lose their jobs within the liquor control commission? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism and Culture. Mr. Henderson: Madam Speaker, as minister responsible of the liquor control commission, we’re always trying to run our operation in as efficient a manner as we possibly can, and we’re always reviewing our hours of operation and our staffing models. In the near future we’ll be unfolding those staffing models. I don’t see that there are going to be any significant changes, but there may be some in some locations. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

This government speaks in riddles. People are only numbers to them, and this is completely unacceptable. Minister, will you tell the House how many people are on the chopping block within the liquor control commission? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism and Culture. Mr. Henderson: Madam Speaker, like I had mentioned to the hon. member before, we’re always reviewing our hours of operation. In some cases we may be expanding hours of operation, maybe some cases we may be reducing hours of operation. That is going to have an impact on some of the staffing models that we have. At this point in time we have not made those decisions, and I think that we have to be responsible to the taxpayer in the operations of our liquor control commissions across the Island. That’s why we’re looking at some agency models. We’re doing all those things to try to improve our margins and our profits to the taxpayers to provide all the services that the opposition seems to be requesting across this province. We will continue to look at those operations to make them as efficient and manageable as possible. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Seasonal liquor store employees have yet to hear from this government regarding employment this summer. Can the minister inform the House if it’s cutting and slashing extends to casual employees on the call list? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism and Culture. Mr. Henderson: Once again, Madam Speaker, we are reviewing our staffing models, and we will be informing all our staff whether they’re going to be recalled or not.


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In most cases everybody will be coming back, but there are some instances, because of the changes that we’re making in the hours of operation, and our staffing models may be a little excessive in some locations. We’re always reviewing that to be as efficient as we possibly can. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville. Alberton committee Mr. Murphy: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wasn’t aware that I had to share my schedule with the Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Anyway, my question is to the hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. I did attend that meeting in Alberton last night. There was a committee struck up at that meeting, and I’d like to ask the hon. Minister of Health and Wellness if he would meet with this committee. Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I want to compliment the Member from Alberton-Roseville for his advocacy. He’s doing a tremendous job in keeping me informed on the issues. We’ve had a lot of conversation about the potential challenges in health care facing – which is a $25 million increase in budget spending. I would be more than glad to meet with the Member from Alberton-Roseville and a committee to talk about some initiatives and ideas. I think that any time any community group wants to meet me regarding ways that we can work together and be collaborative on solutions, I’d be more than willing to do that. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville. Mr. Myers: Consultations after the fact.

An Hon. Member: (Indistinct) call centre. Speaker: Order, opposition members! Western Hospital Mr. Murphy: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The statement was there made last night at that meeting, from the Member from Tignish-Palmer Road, regarding the future of Western Hospital. He was saying that Western Hospital is doomed, that it’s about to be closed and a lot of fearmongering. Could the hon. Minister of Health and Wellness please state clearly this government’s intentions regarding Western Hospital? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. An Hon. Member: I asked the same question (Indistinct). Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. We, through this budget process, with a contained budget, were presented a number of scenarios from Health PEI on opportunities and ranges. There was a lot of push back in respect to what our beliefs are from a policy perspective. This government is committed to health care on rural Prince Edward Island, but we’re also committed to making sure that we make the investments that are strategic in prevention and making sure that primary health care is protected. As long as this government’s in power we’ll be protecting health care services in the Province of Prince Edward Island. Thank you. Speaker: The hon. Member from Belfast-Murray River. Supply management system Mr. McGeoghegan: Thank you, Madam Speaker.


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My question this morning is to the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Minister, current federal budget cuts and trade negotiations could jeopardize the Canadian supply management system. Are measures being put in place to protect PEI dairy and poultry farmers if the quota system is removed? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, great question from the Member from Belfast-Murray River. Milk, chickens and eggs in this great country of Canada are sold under the basis of supply management. It’s a system that’s been out there for about 30 years and it’s a great system. Those industries are profitable here in Canada and Prince Edward Island. We maintain our share and that is a great system. Just for an example, ADL will purchase milk from producers here on PEI and the farm gate receipts on that milk would be in the range of $70 million. They take that $70 million and value-add that to about $130 million. We support always supply managed system structure that we have here in Canada. It’s just a great program and we’ll continue to do that. Speaker: The hon. Member from Belfast-Murray River. Mr. McGeoghegan: To the same minister: Is your department aware of any conditions in the federal CETA trade deal that could effectively prevent provincial governments from protecting their own farmers and resources? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, marketing of agricultural products now is becoming a bit more globalized. Just last week I sent a letter to our federal Minister of Agriculture, Gerry Ritz, in

support of Quebec and Ontario letters to say that we absolutely, unequivocally, want to maintain our supply management system here in Canada. Quebec and Ontario have about 75% of the quota system, actually, for dairy products, and eggs and poultry as well. They asked us for support. We know there are discussions going on with the Canadian European Trade Agreement, and we absolutely insist that the supply management system that we have now, and that structure that we have in place, that served us so well, be maintained here in Canada. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Speaker: Second supplementary. The hon. Member from Belfast-Murray River Mr. McGeoghegan: Yes, to the same minister again: Is your department making plans to protect PEI’s food sovereignty when nationally there is a push to align government policy with global agribusiness? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, there’s an evolutionary process that happens in everything. Of course, our milk and our poultry and our egg system probably only dealt nationally in Canada. There are trends now globally so it makes it a little different so we have to approach this in a very careful way. We insist on protecting what we have. We believe there are opportunities in other parts of the planet for agriculture products, there’s more demand for food in many different areas, and we’ll be doing everything possible, as a province and as a nation, to protect and preserve that. It’s a collection of great industries, and it’s very good. We will constantly, reinforce, as we always do at our FPT meetings – which is our federal-provincial-territorial ministers meetings – that Minister Ritz and the federal negotiators always respect the system that we have in place. We’ll continue to do that, Madam Speaker.


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Thank you. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Liquor commission employees (further) Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the casual employees with the liquor control commission have yet to hear about their employment, can the minister inform the House when these people will be notified regarding their employment with the liquor control commission for this coming summer period? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism and Culture. Mr. Henderson: Yes, Madam Speaker. Once again, the liquor control commission, we have about $90 million worth of sales, we have 19 retail outlets across Prince Edward Island, and one current agency outlet. We are always trying to model those staffing models comparable to sales at those particular facilities, the seasons, in ways that we can try to grow this business so that we can return. Last year 15 to $20 million of revenues were returned to the province. Once again, we’re reviewing those staffing models currently, and we would hope to have some letters out to the recall workers that provide a great service to our agency stores and our liquor stores. When those sales in the summer increase we need to have more staff, so we’ll be doing that in the very near future, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Dialysis services (further) Mr. LaVie: Thank you, Madam Speaker. On today’s segment of Island Voices I would like to ask my questions on behalf of John from Souris.

The last time I drove from Souris to Charlottetown it was the same distance from Charlottetown to Souris. Was it too far of a drive for you and your government members to come to Souris last night for a meeting with the residents who are concerned with the loss of dialysis service in the community? My question is to the deputy premier. Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, I’ve visited Souris on many occasions, and there’s some great folks in Souris, and the highway’s the same length both ways. We want to provide the best health care service we can provide to Islanders. It has to be affordable. We discussed this yesterday in the House. There’s only so many dollars to go around, and – An Hon. Member: (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Webster: – we have to make sure we have the best technology within our hospital systems. The technology is ramping up. The equipment in the facilities that are in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital is phenomenal. Just for an example, as a hospital. You have to have that latest and greatest piece of technology – Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Mr. Webster: You have to have – Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Speaker: The deputy premier has the floor. Mr. Webster: You have to have the qualified people to run that equipment, and that’s so important. We need to provide that service for all Islanders. We care about every single Islander, Madam Speaker, and the quality of care and the demands are increasing, and we need to be there for all Islanders. Thank you.


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Speaker: The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Mr. LaVie: Madam Speaker, last night I attended a meeting also, and it was a heated meeting at the Souris health centre, with hundreds of residents who are outraged and severely disappointed in this government. Communities like ours and Souris are being bled, we’re being drained of services because this government has an addiction to spending. Question to the minister of health: Why didn’t you talk to Islanders, to the people of Kings County and the people of West Prince, before you cut this service? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the meeting, I was doing budget estimates on the floor last night. If you look at our government’s investment in communities across Prince Edward Island, it was the hon. Member from Souris-Elmira’s community that received a replacement of Colville Manor. When we came in we worked very closely with the community, and actually we moved the opening and the building of Colville Manor up by a year because of the condition that that administration left that facility in. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Currie: When I came into government in 2007 we were left with a situation. As I drove down to Souris - An Hon. Member: Twenty-three million dollar surplus. Speaker: The minister of health has the floor. Mr. Currie: As I drove to Souris, I believe it was in early June, faced with the decision that we inherited, one physician in the town of Souris, and we worked hard with the community. We reinstated the complement, I believe up to three and at times four. We’re

going to continue to work with the community. I welcome an opportunity to meet with the hon. Member from Souris-Elmira and a group to talk about health care in the community of Souris. Our commitment as government is to make sure that we continue to – An Hon. Member: (Indistinct). Mr. Currie: – enhance government service, but at the same time balance the challenges. As I said before, health care has to start to transcend politics. We’re really going to sustain our health care system, I’d be more than willing to hear suggestions and opportunities. Actually, I’ve been sitting on the floor talking about budget estimates, and I haven’t heard any ideas or solutions from that government today, Madam Speaker. An Hon. Member: That’s not true. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Currie: I look forward to conversations, and I’m very open. I’ve had an opportunity to welcome them into my office, and I think half of them showed up to talk about one of the most important issues – Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Currie: To talk about one of the most important issues facing Islanders. I will continue to work with opposition, I’ll work with my own members, I’ll work with government, physicians, nurses, LPNs, to make sure that we work together to protect the great health care system that we have here in the Province of Prince Edward Island, Madam Speaker. Speaker: The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Mr. LaVie: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This government, and especially this minister, knew 30 days ago dialysis treatments were being cut and slashed.


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Question to the minister of health: Why is it that every time your government makes a decision they do it in secret without even talking to all Islanders? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. An Hon. Member: (Indistinct) hurt your leadership bid. Mr. Currie: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. This government has a strong track record of investments in health care. In the last five years we had to make some tough decisions. We faced the reality in 2007. When I came in as the minister I asked for the strategic direction in June of 2007, and I was given a document that I dusted off that had the year 2001 on it. We basically, as a government, had to make some decisions, and during that time there were 20 key initiatives, things like the establishment of primary health care networks, investments in long-term care and home care, the development of a single physician leadership group, enhancement in physicians, nursing positions, the accelerated nursing program, the new school of nursing, the replacement of five manors that, honestly, were an embarrassment to walk in as the minister back in June of 2007. Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Mr. Currie: We’re going to continue to work with Islanders, we’re going to continue to work in communities, to make sure that we protect health care and make sure that we continue to sustain a system that is under constant pressure, Madam Speaker. Thank you very much. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: Final question. The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Government plans Mr. LaVie: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This government has shut down dialysis treatment, they have shut down the walk-in

clinic, they have put people out of work, they’ve racked up the province’s finances. Question to the deputy premier: When will it stop? Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and Deputy Premier. Mr. Webster: Madam Speaker, obviously, to build an economy on Prince Edward Island you need to have a vision. An Hon. Member: (Indistinct). Mr. Webster: We have a vision – Speaker: The member is speaking. Mr. Webster: – and six months ago the people endorsed our vision to go forward and build an economy, spend (Indistinct) – An Hon. Member: Go back and ask them again. Mr. Webster: – invest in Islanders, and that’s what we’re doing. We invested in education. We invested in health care. We invested in highways and bridges. I think wise investments are the way to go. We’ve believed fundamentally in a day’s work for a day’s pay. People have to be efficient at what they do. If we find deficiencies within a department, should we maintain and continue to leave people on a position that isn’t justified anymore? I don’t think that’s the way to do it. The minister of transportation has efficiency now in his system. Now we can relocate people to other positions, there are other opportunities, that they will do better - An Hon. Member: (Indistinct). Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Webster: That will help us all. If everybody engages in the challenge that we have, Madam Speaker, we can clearly bring this province forward, and that’s what we aim to do. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


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Speaker: End of Question Period.

Statements by Ministers Speaker: The hon. Minister of Environment, Labour and Justice and Attorney General. Emergency Preparedness Week Ms. Sherry: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Emergency Preparedness Week takes place across Canada May 6th to the 12th. Although we have been quite lucky in recent years, we are certainly aware that an emergency can happen any place and anytime and that we must always be prepared. Public safety begins at home, and being prepared will reduce the impact when an emergency does happen. Learn about the risks in your area and make a personal plan for your family to deal with those risks. Put together and update annually your own emergency preparedness kit containing items such as bottled water, cash, medications, a wind up or battery operated flashlight and radio, and other supplies. The Office of the Public Safety can help individuals, municipalities and organizations learn more and take steps towards emergency preparedness. Click on the EP Week link at www.peopublicsafety.ca or call 894-0385. The website links to the Emergency Preparedness Guide in English, French, Simple Chinese character, Punjabi, Inuktitut and Traditional Chinese character; and also to a guide for persons with disabilities and special needs in English, Chinese, French, Italian, Portuguese, Punjabi and Spanish. I encourage everyone to visit our webpage, participate in a survey, and enter your name to win a prize, sign up for public safety alerts and download checklists and children’s activity sheets. You can even get information on caring for your pets during an emergency. Facebook and Twitter users can also follow us @PEIPublicSafety. I wish everyone a happy and safe Emergency Preparedness Week.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Minister of Tourism and Culture. Cruise Ship Season Mr. Henderson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A sure sign that summer is just around the corner is the arrival of the first cruise ship of the year. This Sunday, Holland America’s Maasdam ship will arrive in Charlottetown with more than 1,200 passengers and 557 crew members. The arrival of the ship will launch another record season for our cruise ship sector. In total, 57 ships with nearly 80,000 passengers and more than 35,000 crew members are expected to visit Prince Edward Island this year. There are eight ships planning their inaugural visit to Prince Edward Island this year, the largest of which is the Emerald Princess with 3,100 passengers. The cruise ship sector is an important partner in strengthening the province’s tourism industry. Prince Edward Island’s reputation as a top cruise ship destination continues to grow. Our stunning beaches, fresh food straight from the land and the sea and warm Island culture make Prince Edward Island a welcoming destination. The cruise ship sector benefits Islanders, businesses and our economy. In 2011 the cruise season generated $12.9 million in economic spin-offs and is expected to grow more than 35% for 2012. A strong cruise sector also plays a key role in extending the province’s tourism season as the majority of ships visiting Prince Edward Island are in the spring and the fall. I’m proud to represent a government that recognizes the importance of supporting our tourism partners. A strong tourism industry benefits all Islanders through job creation and revenues that are reinvested in services such as health and education.


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In closing, I want to wish all our tourism operators on Prince Edward Island a good 2012 summer season and cruise ship season as well. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: Responding to the minister’s statement, the hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’d also like to congratulate the industry for really focusing on the cruise ships. I have to tell you, living in Stratford, it’s just majestic to watch these huge ships come in, especially through the narrows of the Charlottetown harbour between Rocky Point and Stratford. One thing I would like to ask, though, if the minister of tourism could bring it back to his department. There are day trips, and those are wonderful. But I hear from many different communities on PEI, Georgetown being one of course, that really would like to be involved in this lucrative tourism industry and the day trips with the cruise ships. So if your department could set up committee or start the conversation, the dialogue, to help market those other areas that we could get more of those people out across all of the Island instead of just a couple of concentrated little spots, that would be great, Mr. Minister. Thank you very much. An Hon. Member: Hear, hear! Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Currie: Thank you, Madam Speaker. With your indulgence, I’d like to recognize guests in the gallery. Would like to recognize Mona O’Shea in the gallery today, and I’ll be speaking in the statement, but want to acknowledge her commitment and her leadership for nurses across Prince Edward Island. She does a great job and she does a good job holding me accountable and

I look forward to an upcoming meeting that we’ve scheduled. Also would also like to acknowledge Heather Rix, a nursing policy analyst and Becky Gosbee in the gallery today as well. Thank you very much. National Nurses Week I’m pleased to stand in the House today to recognize National Nursing Week, May 6th to 12th, 2012. This week is a wonderful opportunity to show appreciation for the very important role nurses play in the Prince Edward Island health system. Next week, several appreciation events will take place, and I will have the pleasure to be part of award presentations for the Marjorie Vessey Award and Emily A. Bryant Award which go to members of our province’s dedicated nursing staff. I would like to take the opportunity to congratulate all who were nominated for these prestigious awards, for dedication to their professional and exceptional achievements. Our nurses deserve recognition for their commitment to the profession, not only this week, but every day for the important role they play in providing comfort, care and expertise to their patients on a daily basis. This government values the importance of nurses. I would like to express my sincere appreciation to all our Island nurses for the value they bring to patients, families, and communities across our great province. As Minister of Health and Wellness I’ve had the opportunity to see firsthand the hard work and dedication of our nursing staff in facilities across the province. The level of care, expertise and teamwork of these nurses is truly outstanding and helps define what is working so well in our health care system, and we are committed to work with our frontline nurses to build a quality-driven integrated health care system. I deeply thank all the nurses in our province. Thank you very much.


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Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: Responding to the minister’s statement, the hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’d also like to rise and recognize the special guests that have joined us here today in the gallery. It’s always great to see you up there. I’d also like to recognize the National Nursing Week, May 6th to 12th. However, I would like to remind this government that, as they’re rolling out their various models of care, we’re continually hearing from the unions that represent nurses that we’re losing nursing positions. I would like to remind the government, and particularly the minister of health, that this is unacceptable, that we do have these hard working individuals, these dedicated individuals that work tirelessly to provide excellent health care on PEI, and we just cannot afford to go backwards and reduce the number that we have working in our health care system. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Speaker: I’d now like to call upon the hon. Minister of Fisheries, Aquaculture and Rural Development for recognition of guests. Mr. MacKinley: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I’d like to recognize Michelle Johnston and her daughter, all the way up from Montague. She works with us in the department of fisheries in Montague. It’s good to see that Michelle and her daughter made it in here today, and I hope her daughter goes out for treats when she leaves here. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Presenting and Receiving Petitions

Tabling of Documents Speaker: The hon. Opposition House Leader.

Mr. Myers: Madam Speaker, by Command of Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor, I beg leave to table the two documents I referred today, it’s the Trade Mission to India, hon. Premier, Trade Mission to India from the hon. Minister of Innovation and Advanced Learning and I move, seconded by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, that the said document be now received and do lie on the Table. Speaker: Shall it carry? Carried. Reports by Committees Introduction of Government Bills Government Motions

Orders of the Day (Government) Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance, Energy and Municipal Affairs. Mr. Sheridan: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the hon. Minister of Health and Wellness, that the 2nd order of the day be now read. Speaker: Shall it carry? Carried. Clerk: Order No. 2, Consideration of the Estimates, in Committee. Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance, Energy and Municipal Affairs. Mr. Sheridan: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health and Wellness, that this House do now resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House to take into consideration the grant of supply for Her Majesty. Speaker: Shall it carry? Carried. I’ll now call upon the hon. Member from Tracadie-Hillsborough Park to Chair the Committee. Chair (Watts): The House is now in a Committee of the Whole House to further consider the grant of supply to Her Majesty.


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Mr. Minister, do you wish to – Mr. Currie: Yes, I’d like to bring Denise Fleming back onto the floor please. Chair: Permission for the minister to bring – Mr. Myers: Absolutely, bring her on. Chair: Permission granted. For the benefit of the House, we are in the middle of page 108 on Provincial Clinical Services. Before we start this portion of it, I would just ask the members of the House to please use respect to one another. Both sides of the House. I’m sure this will go much smoothly if we do show respect. There are lots of questions to be asked, and rightly so, by every member of this House. Anyway, that’s all I ask, that everybody respect one another. Mr. Myers: Did we just finish PCH last night? Mr. Currie: Yeah, we finished that one. Chair: Yes. That was carried and now we are on Provincial Clinical Services. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Leader of the Opposition: In terms of diagnostic imaging, this is in lab services. This section is for all those services at all our hospitals right now? Mr. Currie: Yeah. I’ll just give you a quick overview. The division is responsible for the day-to-day operations of the provincial clinical servicing programs while working closely with all health care facilities and primary health care services across. Everything delivered through the QEH, PCH, Souris, Kings County Memorial, Stewart Memorial, Western Hospital, and provincial pharmacare programs. Leader of the Opposition: Minister, how many different diagnostic tests in regards to blood would be done at the QEH? Do you have people doing those services from midnight on? Because my understanding is

that they are extremely busy there and can’t keep up to the demand that’s there right now. I’m curious what you’re doing about it. Mr. Currie: Excuse me for a minute. Yeah, basically right now the profile of key statistics and measures, laboratory tests were – almost 1,900,000 tests that were done across the province. Leader of the Opposition: Across the province. Mr. Currie: Yeah. Leader of the Opposition: Do you know if there is a lot of pressure on the lab services at the QEH? The reason why I’m asking, it’s my understanding that they have to deal with blood work coming across the province. They deal with people coming in through out-patients, the hospital itself, and they’ve been understaffed the last couple years. I’m just curious if that’s still the case and if so, what you’re doing? Mr. Currie: The lab director and the lab manager are currently working on utilization. There is obviously a high volume. I shared this statistic last night on the floor of the House that currently at the QEH, for example, there’s approximately, not counting the cancer treatment centre or patients coming in, nor the emergency room, we have approximately 700 Islanders per day coming in for various services. That’s 700 per day, which is a very high volume, and those demands continue to grow. There are processes going on right now to look at utilization. They are obviously looking at ways to – there is a lot of demand on physicians for diagnostic services and there’s conversations about: Is there a need for so many? They’re constantly evaluating what – I mean, physicians will run a range of tests and needs in respect to diagnosis because of liability and so on. Leader of the Opposition: Just on that – Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Leader of the Opposition: I know your government keeps speaking about efficiencies and streamlining. In the area of blood work and diagnostic tools that the


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present people are using, mostly at the QEH, they still do lots of things, I guess, with the human touch. I know one of their concerns is that you have started to implement more equipment that requires less people. As you’re starting this huge conversation on health with people, are you going to be looking at cutting out people that are trained and going more with machines that do something similar but quite different? Mr. Currie: I’ll just say a comment and then I’ll get Denise to get a little more detail. The Member from Georgetown-St. Peters, regarding technology, technology is evolving in health care and our intention is not to replace health care professionals with technology. We believe in the professionals that we have and the work. There always will be huge demand. If you see the intense growth and demand on health care systems, we’re going to constantly be continuing to grow, for a period of time, the number of health care professionals in our system. Denise? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: There is opportunity, like you mentioned, to use technology so that we can redeploy resources where the human touch is needed the greatest. For example, looking at point of care testing, which is testing at the bedside. Those are some of the initiatives that the executive director of clinical services is overseeing in order to help improve patient care. Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Leader of the Opposition: This is all continuing on this part. Yesterday, minister, and I believe today, there was a couple of opportunities when we were referring to Tyne Valley hospital. I think it may have been yesterday that you suggested you were moving the blood services from the hospital over to your health centre. Now my question is – because blood services, as you just mentioned, at QEH are vital in order to have the hospital. They’re also vital in order to have the Tyne Valley hospital. In terms of in Tyne Valley, there are three, if not four, rooms that deal with blood tests because it’s an acute hospital right now as well. By moving those services over to the clinic, what’s the impact of that? Because you’ve mentioned in the past that you’ve definitely

– blood services are controlled from out-patients in Tyne Valley and that service is being shut down and moved. What’s the impact of that going to be on Tyne Valley? Mr. Currie: First of all, you continue to use the word shut down and we are shutting down – I mean, we’ve got an opportunity in Tyne Valley. There was a needs assessment done on Tyne Valley a number of years back which clearly demonstrated to health care professionals and government what the needs were, from addictions, mental health, chronic disease. With the advocacy of the MLA from Tyne Valley and her commitment to the community to build a million-dollar facility, we need to make sure that we utilize our facilities. It’s a brand-new facility across the street. We want to make sure that we’re using those facilities as we provide services. When we talk about primary health care, primary health care is right now, in communities across Prince Edward Island, the biggest demand and pressure point that’s facing health care in the province. It’s not acute care, it’s primary health care, because of the growth and incidence of chronic disease. We’re seeing, you know, the statistics. My staff, there’s a meeting today with Dr. Bruce Jones to get a clearer picture on the pressures and the big picture on services when it comes to dialysis. We’re facing some very (Indistinct), very challenging times and we as a government believe strongly that we need to sort of adjust and adapt and make the changes to move towards a system that we can afford to have, and that we have good access for health care. Chair: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, another question, and then we’ll go to the hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter. Leader of the Opposition: Thank you, sure. Last week when we met with some of the nurses and some of the people from the foundation, one of the physicians sat in with us and she told us of many examples when people come in to see her because of her particular skills and what’s available at the hospital there. She spoke in detail about a


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particular lady that she discovered had a couple of lumps and she was able to remove the lumps, sew them up, send them for analysis. She told us that the wait list – she recognized that there was something wrong with the lump and it didn’t look good, right? She recognized if she referred this lady to a specialist it would take eight or 10 months. She was able to remove the lump, get it sent for diagnosis – it was a fast-growing melanoma - and was able to get the lady not only seen, but the lump out and back on the road to recovery, where time was essential. If she had not done that through the hospital, this lady probably, with the type of cancer, would have had a really bad diagnosis. Anyway, I’m coming back to the notion from the doctor, herself. She explained to us that having blood services over at the clinic, some services, is not the same as having blood services, again, in Tyne Valley in the hospital. I’m going with what the doctor had told us, the nurses, and how they felt very strongly that when you move those services to the clinic it is not the same services. It’s not duplication. They need the blood services the way they are in order to keep the same kind of services in Tyne Valley, if you’re going to keep it as a hospital. Mr. Currie: I made public statements to Islanders that we do have quality services and very reasonable access to great care. If you look at mammography, and you look at emergency response times to diagnosis with procedures, they’re probably as good as any in the country. Once again, I continue to be very clear that we can have services in communities all across Prince Edward Island, but at the same time we have to make sure that we have reasonable good access to the best service possible. I can’t speak specifically about this situation. I’m not a physician. I’m not a clinician. But we have to make sure with the intense growth in the demand on our health care system and the complexity of the patients that are coming into our facilities – all our facilities can play a vital role in services. I don’t see why the Stewart Memorial Hospital can’t be an extension of the Prince County Hospital and/or the QEH.

We’re a population of 143,000 people and it doesn’t have to be services in isolation. I don’t think that is the best care for patients anyway. When we’re talking patient safety, patient care, that has to be the number one priority. It’s about taking away. It’s not about expanding. It’s about making sure that we’re providing the best services and reasonable access with the best trained professionals who have the expertise in a range of areas. We have reasonable access to blood services all across the province, probably better access to blood services in this province per capita than any other province in Canada. Chair: Thank you. I want to go to the hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter and then it will be the hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. The hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter. Ms. Biggar: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. I think, perhaps, the Leader of the Opposition has not read the Guardian this morning. I want to thank the minister for our meeting yesterday. It was certainly clarified, without a doubt, that our blood services at Stewart Memorial Hospital are not being moved to the clinic. I just want to clarify that for the Leader of the Opposition. She might want to check the Guardian this morning. In terms of having met with the community groups several times since budget day, we’re in a dialogue at the moment, which Health PEI and the minister’s very engaged in with us, looking at what opportunities over and above the hospital are that we can provide at the clinic. When the clinic was built in 2009 it was built to provide services for other professionals. Now, we do have two doctors, one of which was mentioned, who has been a dedicated member. What was discussed, I believe, and I’ll get to my question here around this as well, because it all ties in, is providing, since we’re going to be closing the out-patients – we have the two doctors still there, and rescheduling hours and whatnot – an opportunity there to also have the ambulatory care services that I think the


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Leader of the Opposition mentioned as well. Those are opportunities that still can be provided. I just wanted to clarify that we have had discussion around the blood services and just to not confuse the residents as to where that situation is as of this morning, and that the minister has clarified that, and I thank him for that. Diagnostic imaging at Tyne Valley hospital, we do provide that. It’s an ongoing challenge to keep equipment updated in the smaller community hospitals. We have a portable x-ray machine that we can take right to the patient’s bed. We’re in the process, I believe – the foundation has to update that. It is always a challenge to keep the equipment updated in those local areas. I know our community’s very dedicated to providing equipment. I guess that’s something that if you want to comment on the community hospitals, and their challenges in keeping up the equipment in that particular ranges, diagnostically. In terms of the blood services, our community goes in for monitoring, process, and all those do go out to the Queen Elizabeth lab. But, if you want to comment a little bit, maybe on the equipment challenges at the community hospitals, if you can. Mr. Currie: We’re fortunate that we have our hospitals, the QEH and the PCH and community hospitals. We have very active, engaged foundations. As the minister I’m very grateful for the commitment and the work they do. We’ve been fortunate in Tyne Valley. It was quite a challenge, as you know, hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter, to attract a second physician because of the current health care structure there. Now with the clinic there, that was probably the main reason why we were able to get a second physician. We were struggling with locums. We couldn’t fill the (Indistinct). When we came in as government in 2007 we had one physician. We recognized that one of those physicians has been in the community for a long time. These conversations in Tyne Valley are really important. I had a great conversation

with you yesterday about the direction. The community is very open to new ideas in respect to protecting services, but also realizing that we have to move away from, maybe, some traditional models of health care delivery because of the challenges, the aging population. I think there are tremendous opportunities in Tyne Valley to maintain services, but at the same time a level of service that meets the needs. The community assessment gives a clear demonstration of the needs of the community. When you have needs in the community, as a responsible government and health care system you need to respond to those needs. You can’t be trying to do something and provide something when the need is completely different to what the demand is. When we talked about acute care, when we talked about acute delivery, like acuity ones, and twos and threes, they really need to be in full-functioning acute care hospitals, like the PCH and the QEH. I guess, if you’re an individual and you go into cardiac arrest in Tyne Valley at 10:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m., you really need to be in an ambulance with a paramedic 3 heading to Prince County Hospital or the QEH in conversation, while you’re in transit, to make sure that you’re getting the best care and the best interventions to stabilize that cardiac arrest until you get to the facility. If you look at the bypass protocol that’s currently in place, I think that it was in the best interest of safety and protecting Islanders in times of a trauma, or head-on collisions. In rural Prince Edward Island it puts about another 40 minutes on the treatment time and access to that health care provider in the main referral hospitals, particularly when you don’t have the volume in some hospitals that have the experience and the consistency to deal with those kinds of acute trauma or the supports to meet those interventions, too, to keep Islanders alive. I think we have to be mindful of that, as we move forward. But I think there are huge opportunities in Tyne Valley and, as I said on the floor, I’m open and willing to have conversations and very open-minded in respect to ways that we can be creative.


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I think there has to be a conversation and a dialogue, and I’m committed. Part of the business plan is that in the department there is a clear direction to Health PEI, that there will be a public engagement strategy that I will be leading in conjunction with Health PEI, and communities all across Prince Edward Island, to start talking about health care. We need to start a conversation on health care. We need to work with communities. We need to provide information for communities to really understand some of the real pressures and challenges. This is not something that I want to do in isolation. I’m going to be engaged. I just wasn’t able to have those conversations, a high-level public engagement strategy. There’s a clear message to Health PEI from the public in the campaign, pre-election environment, that there’s this attitude about this unelected, unaccountable board. I’ll tell you right now, that board is accountable, and through the budget process we were pushing back on their suggestions for services that they felt needed to be realigned, and we stood strong. We stood strong as government on that and we’re prepared to go down that road. But at the same time, I as the minister have to recognize that the pressures – we are containing growth in the budget, but we need to engage. I want to hear from Islanders. I want to hear suggestions and strategies. I welcome opportunities from opposition, from MLAs. This is a very serious conversation and this conversation has to transcend politics because when you’re making health care policy decisions on political cycles you’re not doing the right thing for future health care in this province. And I stand by that statement. Ms. Biggar: Just one follow-up. Chair: The hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter. Ms. Biggar: In regard to we’re now in a process of transition with the Tyne Valley Stewart Memorial health decision to close the out-patients, and we’re going to be in a process. Do you have some kind of data? You know, what is provided in other – we’re being designated, I believe, as a primary

health care centre in Tyne Valley there, the new clinic. Do you have some information you can bring with us to look at what’s available? Mr. Currie: We are creating, as part of our strategic vision and direction by government, we’re basically supporting – I mean, we’re really behind the curve in respect to primary health care delivery in the province. Other jurisdictions have moved down this road and really, primary health care is really about providing – and I used this – the right provider in the right situation at the right time. It’s about access. We want to make sure that if you’re dealing with chronic disease that we’re providing those services to manage your chronic disease. If we don’t manage those issues on chronic disease it’s going to create more complex health issues, which is going to result in admittance to the main acute care hospitals. I know right now we talked last night about utilization. Basically when I talk about utilization, all utilization is is a very simple way to say that we want to make sure that we have acute care beds for our most sick Islanders in our main referral hospitals. I know right now if you look at hospitals across the province, if you look at the average length of stay for expected level of stays on a range of procedures, we are way off the mark in respect to – for example, if you go in for procedure A at the QEH, you’ll spend three to four days longer in the QEH than you would in a hospital that is identical size, which is a peer hospital in any other province in the country. When we talk about length of stays being – if we’re not efficient in that area, that’s going to create blockages in the emergency room. That’s going to make for longer wait times for medically discharged seniors. It’s going to mean that ORs are going to be interrupted. It’s going to mean that trauma patients coming in, surgeries are going to be slowed down. It’s going to mean that wait times for areas that need to be improved are going to be slowed because the access for the orthos to have access to volume of beds. Basically, we have made inroads. We reduced the number of bed closures from 80 to 40 and that’s a huge inroad, but more work needs to be done.


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Ms. Biggar: Thank you. Mr. Chair, I guess I apologize to the rest of my colleagues. I veered off of this section and went into community hospitals, so I’ll have some more questions when we get to that. Chair: Thank you, hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter. Now we’ll go back to the hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Myers: All right, thank you. During Question Period today you mentioned that you sat on the floor here and did your budget and you didn’t get one single suggestion from the opposition. If you rewind to last night – Mr. Currie: Did I say that? Mr. Myers: You did say that. You did say that. Mr. Currie: It’s in the Hansard? Mr. Myers: It’s in the Hansard. Now I’m going to call you back on that. Last night we talked about dialysis and we talked about dialysis moving out of Alberton. We talked about dialysis moving out of Souris. I know the hon. member, because I know you were engaged in the conversation. You were listening as well. What I suggested was if you were going to pare it down to only two, why not put it in Alberton and why not put in it Souris? Why would you take it out? That was a legitimate suggestion in my opinion. I know you brushed it off, but certainly – Mr. Currie: I didn’t brush it off. I listened. Mr. Myers: Well, it was a suggestion, though, and you said that you were sitting here and nobody’s making suggestions to you. Is it fair to say that that was a suggestion that I gave you last night? Mr. Currie: I think yeah, that was a suggestion. But at the same time, when you look at decisions on services, clinicians and, in the case of dialysis, nephrologists are very

much part of those discussions. If you look at the trends across the country in respect to jurisdictions which are smaller and even larger than the Province of Prince Edward Island, basically you’re seeing clinical decisions based on putting dialysis into acute care hospitals to support other services that are available in those main (Indistinct) hospitals. That becomes a decision around clinical supports to that dialysis patient who – usually most dialysis patients as they sort of go through their dialysis treatment, the complexities around their overall health continue to diminish because of the impact that chronic disease has on their overall health. Heart disease. I think when we look at suggestions – which, as I said, I’m open for suggestions, and I believe that we as politicians can sit here and debate what we’re doing and what we’re not doing, or what we can do, but at the same time, we have to go back and talk to the experts and say: Is that doable? Is that possible? Is that the best care? Is that making sure that patient safety is the number one priority? Mr. Myers: Yeah, okay. On to the topic at hand – Chair: The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Myers: Oh. I’m still okay? Chair: Yeah, go ahead, hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Myers: The topic at hand here, we’re talking about the clinical services. In the clinical services area, does Souris currently have a full complement of clinical services, comparable to the other outlying hospitals that aren’t Prince County or QEH? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: To the best of my knowledge the technician positions that are at Souris are all filled. But I would have to also confirm that with the hospital administrator. Mr. Myers: So they have blood services. Denise Lewis Fleming Director: Yes, because they do have to take care of their in-patient beds as well.


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Mr. Myers: There’s no fear of them losing any of their clinical services as we wind on down this road, besides dialysis. Mr. Currie: The discussion, this conversation that we continue to debate, talking about health care, one of the things about services, like clinical services in community hospitals, is that we know that there is – I talked last night about making sure that we have access to most sick Islanders in our larger acute care facilities because they have the volume of specialists and the range of equipment and so on. Communities in Prince Edward Island and facilities can very much play a very active part. When we talk about primary health care, when you’re talking about access to services, access to services is very important as we’re committed to developing five primary health care networks. I believe I’m waiting for a phone call on a group from Morell on that conversation around the health clinic. Leader of the Opposition: On my clinic. Thank you. Mr. Myers: You have documents to table about that too, right? Mr. Currie: Yeah. So there are opportunities and it’s just sort of how we evolved to those opportunities. It’s not about – I mean, we need to make sure that we have services and protect services. We have a huge growth in our budgets and pressures on that growth so we want to make sure that we make decisions and we align our self to make sure that we protect services. When we talk about primary health care we need those services to work and deliver primary health care. That’s just part and parcel. We can’t have everybody come to Charlottetown for service because they can’t maintain. Right now, currently, we’re seeing 700 Islanders a day and that number’s rising for a range of services. We need to make sure that we’re managing. Now, some of those services could be services that aren’t available because of certain technologies, certain specialists, but we need to make sure that we’re working our system and making sure that we’re sufficient to make sure that there is access to services across the province.

Mr. Myers: Should they fear that they’ll lose more services, then, in the clinical services area? Mr. Currie: I don’t. There’s no reason. It’s the same discussion in Tyne Valley. There are opportunities to maintain services, but make sure that we have services there and make sure we’re not duplicating services five minutes down the road or 15 minutes down the road. I mean, we have to balance what’s reasonable and what’s sustainable. Mr. Myers: Do you have the documents for Murray River and Morell that I asked for? Mr. Currie: Not yet. Mr. Myers: Okay. Mr. Currie: If you look at the number of –currently right now we’ve got approximately 25, 30 patients receiving dialysis in Summerside, approximately 40, a little over 40, patients at Beach Grove in the basement receiving dialysis. In Souris there’s approximately 11 and some of those are not all from Souris. Some of them are travelling in. Alberton, some of those are not all from Alberton, some of those are coming from Summerside. Just sort of to give you some numbers about – Mr. Myers: Yes, and, I understand that you have a higher volume in Summerside and Charlottetown. I think that what I was trying to point out to you, that it’s silly to expect people – you wouldn’t expect people from Charlottetown to drive to Souris. So it’s silly to expect the people from Souris to drive to Charlottetown when they have the services currently in their hospital. You built it, you built a unit for them to – Mr. Currie: Part of the discussion that’s on the table with Health PEI, I said: Listen, we’ve got a Prince County Hospital and there’s no reason why, if there are current services that are being provided at the QEH, that may be not provided at PCH, or if they are, there are longer wait times at the QEH –we need to start sending people living in Charlottetown, Stratford and Cornwall to Summerside.


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That is evolving. It’s starting to happen. We’re seeing more and more of it. We’re starting to see – Mr. Myers: That’s still closer than Souris to Charlottetown. Mr. Currie: Still an hour. Charlottetown to Summerside’s an hour, or maybe on a good day, with the wind at your back, 50 minutes. I see the Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. If we’re respecting the speed limits, it’s probably 50 minutes. Mr. Myers: Okay, fair enough, then, carry on. Chair: Thank you, the hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. We do have an order here. Next is the hon. Minister of Environment, Labour and Justice and Attorney General, then it’ll be the hon. Member from Souris-Elmira, then the hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. The hon. Minister of Environment, Labour and Justice and Attorney General. Ms. Sherry: Thank you. Minister, when you talk about dialysis services, it’s probably one that’s near and dear to my heart. Over, probably, a nine-year period I advocated for people in the Summerside and west area for top-notch, acceptable dialysis services in the Prince County area. I don’t know how many members have actually visited the unit where they were providing this service at the Summerset Manor. But as a family member of somebody who was receiving the service and spending time with them – it’s not my own family, and I thank God for that, but with people who I’ve dealt with – it was, I felt, a demeaning place to go when you’re receiving that type of care. We have to always respect the issues around patient care, dignity and all of those things. We can’t lose sight of the experience for the patient, and we can never lose sight of the fact that we have to make sure they’re safe when they’re receiving services. We also have to realize that we cannot give those services every 10 minutes down the road.

It’s not acceptable. And be to sustain them, and make them safe, and make them respectful, and to be surrounded with competent staff. There are other underlying issues when you’re dealing with dialysis patients and I think, minister, you mentioned that. I know in the Beach Grove setting there was a constituent of mine who was a patient at the QEH. He was elderly. I remember getting a phone call about 11:30 one night. His wife was just beside herself because they had transported him from the QEH out to Beach Grove for dialysis, because they didn’t have it at the QEH at the time, and in that transfer from one unit to another he ended up having a fall, broke his hip and he never recovered. We have to be mindful that people who are receiving dialysis are not just coming in as out-patients. That some of the people are actually receiving the services in an in-patient bed, and it eliminates one more move for somebody who maybe receiving chronic services. Mr. Currie: As patients who are receiving dialysis treatment, as they move through their experience with dialysis treatment, there is a high risk of more complications as a result of kidney disease, chances of them being in the hospital more frequently. The dialysis is a reality. If you look at the decision by the experts, the nephrologists, to move towards a major acute care facilities, one of the main reasons is to make sure they have better access to a full range of services as a result of the complications of the kidney disease. I understand that this discussion, there’s more of an inconvenience, there’s more of a time demand to traveller access, and I appreciate that. I appreciate the additional costs, but we do have some programs for low-income Islanders who are experiencing financial difficulty. Through discussions with the hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville, and hopefully the hon. Member from Souris-Elmira, will continue to have conversations about ways that we can look at it. The challenge for me, as the minister, as I look at all these individual decisions and discussions, the challenge is that I recognize,


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and it’s been communicated to me, that the demand in six years would have gone from an increase of 73% the last year to another almost 150% increase in the demand. So how do we make decisions today to be able to provide and to meet the demand? There’s no sign of that demand slowing down. Very similar patterns in jurisdictions all across the country. That’s some of the back and forth that we have to sort of wrestle with. As I said, I’m open for conversations, but as the minister responsible for health in the province, I have to respect the nephrologists, I have to respect the commissions. They’re the experts. Most importantly, I have to respect patient care and patient safety. Chair: The hon. Minister of Environment, Labour and Justice and Attorney General. Ms. Sherry: Just another point, and it’s a personal story, really. I was speaking with somebody, who delivers specialized services in Prince Edward Island, just this week. I’m sure it was a point that I took very clearly from somebody who I truly respect as a professional in the province, and that was Dr. Mitton. He performs specialized surgeries here in the province. Through the conversation, I’m always, when I’m in a hospital, or if I’m anywhere where I can actually get feedback from people, I listen very intently to their messages, because as an elected representative who is involved in the decision making for the province, we always have to be mindful of what their perspectives are on these types of things. In the conversation I had asked him about some of the services that he provides. One of the things that he talked about was some of his work that he did in Haiti in regards to helping people with cleft palates in the third world country and the surgeries that he did. He’s very passionate and very dedicated to the work that he does. I asked him if he ever did those surgeries here. He said: No, because I don’t do them enough. I see patients who have those issues, but, because I do not do those surgeries, I refer all of those patients with cleft palates issues to a Dr. Precious at the

QEHII in Halifax, which is a very good point. That’s the other side of it. I also spoke with a constituent who had a family member who had very serious health issues that could not be handled here in either the Prince County Hospital or the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Charlottetown. They were very relieved, the response time to get that patient over to Halifax to see the doctor that they were required to see. It saved their life. I think we also have to be very mindful with specialized services. Doctors go to school for years to learn those skills so that they can actually practise those skills. From a personal perspective, if I had a family member who was dropped in a rural area, let’s say, in the back of Port Hill on my brother-in-law’s farm, I’ve seen it happen before. They’re going to want to go to Prince County because they’re not going to take the chance that they’re going to go to the Stewart Memorial, for example, in a heart attack situation to have people who do not see or treat people with a heart attack and make that stop that could cost them some valuable time. We always have to be mindful of not only the patient, but also those who are very eager to provide top-notch care, to be on the edge of top-notch services when you get into these critical care situations. I think sometimes we lose sight of their dedication and the importance to them of providing critical care in a very expert fashion. Mr. Currie: One of the things that, right now, I mean, if you look at the mortality rate of individuals – I mean, we have one of the lowest mortality rates in the country, which is a compliment to the health care system. The lowest mortality rate in the country. If you look at the success of Islanders living longer with the investments that we’ve made in dialysis, it was in the late 1990s that we actually started to – we opened our first dialysis facility here in the province at the Beach Grove Home in the basement, where it currently is today, in a very crowded environment. If you look at prior to our investments in kidney disease treatment, the mortality rate


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was very high for Islanders living with kidney disease. It was only three years ago that we were sending every dialysis patient that was about to start dialysis had to be transferred, had to spend, back and forth, and at times eight weeks in Halifax. Today we’ve moved even further. We’ve got a second nephrologist from one nephrologist. We’ve expanded the capacity. We’re responding to the demands and we’ve got two nephrologists that would be looked at as two of the best nephrologists in Atlantic Canada. I think that we have to be thankful for that as we continue to try to provide the best service possible. We have to sort of kind of manage these changes as we go forward. If you look at the evolution of dialysis services in the last 12 years, we’ve come a long way. Ms. Sherry: Just in conclusion to that. I can speak to the evolution myself. Thirty years ago my dad had cancer. At that time it was an air ambulance trip to Halifax. My mom had to go over with him. They spent weeks and weeks while he had radiation and chemotherapy. We were home, the family was disjointed, there were two younger children who were in school, so somebody had to come and care for us. Then, as everyone knows, my own mother was ill just in the last four or five years and she received all of her cancer treatment at the Prince County Hospital and ambulatory care. We were very thankful to have those professionals who provided those services in Summerside and kept the family together, and we were able to support one another through that. We can never forget where we were and the journey to where we would like to get in order to really provide good services for Islanders. I don’t believe it’s pitting rural against urban that’s going to make us find solutions for the health care issues in this province. It’s about getting together and recognizing that we want to ensure the best possible care, the best possible treatment with the best possible outcome. If that sometimes needs an hour drive as opposed to a trip across the bridge or an airplane ride, we really have to concentrate on what we want to preserve for the future of Prince Edward Island because it’s an economy of scale as well.

I’m sure, minister, you would agree with that, that the number of people that we have living in the province, 145,000 people, that economy of scale is hard to be able to provide those services. In conclusion, last summer I made a trip to Ontario to visit family. While I was there we had an elderly aunt who had a fall. She was about seven kilometres away from the hospital. It was called Toronto’s East End Hospital. We were 47 minutes, a seven kilometre trip, to a hospital to get services, and you would not believe the wait in the emergency room. There were three large emergency room waiting services in order for her to get care. I think we kind of have to look at the bigger picture and we also have to look at what we want to preserve. We should be very thankful that we are able to interest these specialists from across the country to come to Prince Edward Island and practice, and we don’t want to lose that. Mr. Currie: Thank you, those are great points. Chair: Thank you, minister. The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Mr. LaVie: Thank you, Chair. Minister, we know those dialysis patients, it’s all about the patients. Last night after the meeting there is a patient, he takes dialysis, he can’t drive after the dialysis. What does he do? Does he stay in the hospital, do you take him in, leave him in the hospital? Mr. Currie: Hon. Member from Souris-Elmira, when decisions are made, whatever action, there is a reaction. One size doesn’t fit all. I appreciate the struggle myself as an elected official, and I represent constituents that are travelling now because they can’t get a chair at Beach Grove Home and they go to Summerside. I have those conversations. The balance is, as you try to look at the big picture and look at the intense growth, but the same time, how do you work with these individual situations. As I indicated, I clearly sent a message to Health PEI that we need to be mindful. We need to be mindful of all these situations. Sometimes when we’re driving policy and


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change, sometimes we lose touch of some of these real issues. As the minister I welcome the opportunity to sit with you if you want to put together a group and we can meet. I would be more than glad to do that to identify the individual needs and see what we can do. The challenge is: How do we – as we know that residents in your community, we’re going to see more demand on dialysis and even with the current status quo, we’re going to see an expansion to even contain what we currently have. I welcome that conversation and am very open to look at ways that we can address the needs of Islanders, particularly Islanders who are in tougher situations. Mr. LaVie: Yeah, and there will be a group that will meet with you. Mr. Currie: Sure. Mr. LaVie: When we’re talking individual groups, before the closure I never heard from any dialysis patients or there was any problem up there. Where did this problem arise from? Mr. Currie: It’s not necessarily a problem, it’s basically looking at the ability to expand to meet the needs and the demand. I don’t think anybody would disagree before this House that the numbers are there, the growth is there, the demand for more dialysis. The move towards dialysis treatment in larger acute care facilities to provide a wider range of services is part and parcel to the discussion. This is not a decision that, as an elected official – these are decisions that are made by people who are leading health care, who are providing services and clinicians in the province. Chair: The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Mr. LaVie: These patients don’t want to leave the area, they want to stay in the area. For these patients to travel, they’re all over Kings County. But let’s say from Souris to Charlottetown. It will probably put an extra expense of probably 11,000 dollars. Plus, this patient is living home with his mother and he’s on social assistance. Over 11,000

dollars, actually, if you figure it out three times a week, 52 weeks of the year. Mr. Currie: I recognizes that’s a significant cost, particularly somebody who is living at home on assistance. These are the conversations that we need to look at. As we look at trying to protect and provide services in the future, how do you manage the current realities of those pressures? When we meet I’ll have conversations with you in the days and weeks to come to look at some sort of structure on that conversation. Mr. LaVie: You say these are situations that you’ll look at? Mr. Currie: Yeah. Mr. LaVie: Does that mean that you can reverse your decision? Mr. Currie: Right now I will look at all of these situations and have these conversations. I’m very open to these conversations. I’m not going to ignore the fact, or be disrespectful of the fact, that there are individuals – we’ve got approximately 90 Islanders receiving dialysis. I think we’re looking at approximately – I think the numbers are about anywhere from 16 to 20 Islanders that are receiving dialysis in Alberton and Souris. Regardless if it’s 18 to 20 or 100 that live in those communities, I will be very respectful to those individuals’ needs in that conversation and look at ways that we can try to manage some of these issues. Mr. LaVie: Just one more question, Chair. The dialysis service in Souris Health Center on the first floor, when was it last upgraded? Mr. Currie: I don’t have that exact information. You may know that yourself. We can bring it back when we do the section on dialysis. Mr. LaVie: Yeah, and can you bring back what it costs, too? Mr. Currie: Of the upgrades? Mr. LaVie: Yeah. Mr. Currie: Okay.


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Chair: Thank you, hon. Member from Souris-Elmira. Now it’s on to hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road, question on this section. Mr. Perry: Thank you, chair. Minister, I’m not going to dispute that the new hemodialysis in Summerside is not a good thing. I think it’s a fantastic thing for the residents of East Prince. But I represent West Prince, right? Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Chair: Members, we’re having trouble hearing here, so just respect the other side. Go ahead, the hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Mr. Perry: Thank you. As I was saying, the new hemodialysis centre in Summerside is a fantastic centre for the people of East Prince. However, West Prince has needs, too, and now they’re used to having this service provided within their area. Last night at the meeting there were a lot of concerns that were brought up. When you’re talking about the consultation part, and talking to people, I question why weren’t these consultations done prior to making this decision to understand the impact that this is going to make on those patients and the families and the staff? Mr. Currie: To answer that question, it’s times, in these positions, decisions need to be made. When you look at – part of my responsibility as the minister, I do have to look at the big picture at times because I have the responsibility of health care in the province. Sometimes decisions need to be made. There were a lot of interesting scenarios put forward by Health PEI that, in order to meet their budget targets, and from a policy perspective in government we made it very clear that we were not interested in going down that road. So there’s that. The responsibility of Health PEI is to stay within their budget envelope of 548, 49 million. Sometimes decisions need to be made, but at the same time this decision, there was

change, but also there’s a – with the hiring of a second nephrologist, the expansion of the dialysis area in the PCH, the expansion of ambulatory care, those are substantial investments in kidney disease treatments. I certainly respect your question and your point. I was looking at to getting out to have a conversation with Islanders on a range of health care discussions prior to the budget, but it was just physically impossible with the time. As part of my speech on the throne, and our commitment and the direction and the mandate (Indistinct) Health PEI, I clearly communicated to them that we will be engaged in a high level, very broad conversation, public engagement on health care, which I’m hoping that opposition will be very much part of, to hear suggestions and ideas, but also to be very open-minded in respect to the pressures and realities. If you look at, I guess, as we evolve health care, and governments for the last 20 years had to make decisions on health care; 20 years ago we were delivering babies in O’Leary, we were performing surgeries and procedures, we had emergency rooms in Tyne Valley, Souris and O’Leary. As the system evolves governments, ministers, and politicians have to make those decisions, and they’ll have to continue to be made. If you look at the intense growth, even with a 3.5 increase currently, or 4% increase in health, that’s a $25 million budget. We’re outpacing our ability to pay for health care in the province, so that’s some of the challenges that we’re faced with. At the same time, when we get down to the decision that impacts that patient sitting in the chair that has to travel, they don’t necessarily always see it that way, and I appreciate that. We will have conversations through, and as I’ve said, I’m open for really realistic, sustainable suggestions how we can maintain services in the province and stay within the budget envelope. Because if we don’t it’s going to have a huge impact across budgets in government. We’ll impact tourism budgets, community services and seniors budgets, transportation budgets, we’ll impact education budgets, because just the intense growth and pace of the reality. We’re in very challenging times when it comes to sustaining health care in this province, and we’re no different than – this is a conversation that’s going on nationally


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every day in provinces. If you look at Ontario, look at the decisions that they’ve been directed to make, major policy decisions. If you look at what’s going on in Nova Scotia today, and New Brunswick, the changes that they’re making. That’s sort of: How do we find that balance of good care and making sure that we have the best care and access in a reasonable time to make sure services are there into the future? Mr. Perry: But, again - Chair: The hon. Member from Tignish-Palmer Road. Another question on this section? Mr. Perry: I don’t mean to keep digging at this, but this was brought up many times last night, and it was a consultation. I’m open to have consultation now moving forward with the health care future of West Prince especially, but there was no consultation with staff, patients, or anybody prior to making this announcement. If you’re not there, if you don’t live it, you don’t know what goes on, right? My problem is I don’t understand how you can make this decision without actually going there and speaking to the people in that area. Plus, you talk about efficiencies. What about the productivity engineer who did the study on it and found that Western was the most efficient on the Island? Mr. Currie: What about the fact that we do have – and I’ll use an example. When you talk about efficiencies, look at the overnight emergency hours. We have physicians that are home on call in their beds – Mr. Perry: We’re talking dialysis here – Mr. Currie: No, I know – Mr. Perry: I’m not talking about that. Mr. Currie: No, you’re not talking dialysis, you’re talking efficiencies. So I’m going to give you an example of efficiency, okay? Mr. Perry: Okay. You want to spin it. Mr. Currie: Let’s talk about efficiencies. If you want to really look, and I’ll be – there were scenarios on the table to look at all these services. This government said: No, we’re not interested in going down that road

at this point in time. We’ve had no conversation with Islanders – Mr. Perry: Exactly. Mr. Currie: – on the big picture. We haven’t. Mr. Perry: We know that. Mr. Currie: I was very conscientious of that. If you want to look at efficiencies, we’ve got an emergency room in Western that’s averaging two, three, four, five patients a night that are coming in with very low acuity levels. We have physicians that are getting paid substantial costs to sustain that service, but we as a government said: You know what? We are prepared to protect that service. When you look at efficiencies, these are conversations that need to be had. I’m not making the decision, but we’re saying: Okay, you want to look at efficiencies and innovation, that’s the sort of conversations that need to start being had. Because are we better off saying: Okay, we’ve got a budget envelope of x, what services do we want and what services are we prepared to give up on? You’re right, that conversation didn’t take place, and I’m very aware of that, and I was very – my track record on consultation and conversation with Islanders in my position, in my portfolios, is good. The challenge of this is we went from an election to be appointed, get reacquainted with the portfolio, December, here we are getting back and forth the budgets, and there were all kinds of scenarios put on the table, all kinds, very drastic policy decisions that were presented to us, particularly me, as government. I said: Whoa, hold on, slow the boat down here, boys and girls. We need to make sure that we – we haven’t had a conversation or discussion. I would prefer to go in your community with a very positive dialogue about what is it that we want, what is it we need, and what is it we can afford in communities all across Prince Edward Island. I think that’s a fair conversation – Mr. Perry: But you came to our community and you didn’t even tell me you were there.


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Mr. Currie: No, we, I mean, basically, there were policy decisions put in front of us, very drastic policy decisions on health care in this province, very drastic, and we said: Listen, right now I haven’t had the decency and the courtesy to walk into communities and have those conversations, and I plan to do that. It’s right in the document, if you want to get a copy, I’ll table my priorities as minister and the business plan. I’ll bring that to the House and you can look at it. It’s a very well laid out document. You can look at the concerns around mental health and addictions, public engagement, that’s what we need to do. But there were decisions that needed to be made in a short period of time. There were decisions that needed to be made at the QEH, too, that they’re not very happy about right now today. We’re trying to manage all this, but I need to have a conversation with Islanders. What is it we can afford, what is it we want, and what is realistic, and what is it we can sustain and afford? I think that’s a fair question that you raise. Just unfortunately – but I will show you the document that clearly demonstrates, in my business plan, that I directed to Health PEI, said: We are making no hard policy change on health care policy until we go in and let Islanders have an understanding of the pressures and what is it we can work together on in communities across Prince Edward Island. (Indistinct.) Mr. Perry: That’s contradictory to what you did. Mr. Currie: Pardon? Mr. Perry: That’s contradictory to what you did. Mr. Currie: Yeah. That contradicts, but the point I’m trying to make is that there was – Mr. Perry: So what good is that? Mr. Currie: – a major policy shift. There was examples. We could have made all kinds of policy changes – Mr. Perry: But you’re saying one thing and doing another.

Mr. Currie: What I’m doing is I’m going to engage in a conversation with Islanders. An Hon. Member: After the fact. Mr. Perry: After the fact, exactly. Mr. Currie: After the fact on this policy decision. There’s all kinds of – on this policy decision. Mr. Perry: But if you – you talk about track record. If you have a record, then you did not consult with these people, but now you’re going to say: Oh, yes, we’re going to talk about people on the next issues, how can we, as Islanders, trust that you’re going to do that? You’re talking about a track record and consultation. You want to go into that, did you consult with the people of the eastern school board, the parents, before you underhandedly and without merit fired them? Trustees? Chair: Members, we’re doing estimates on health (Indistinct). Mr. Perry: But he wants to talk about his records. Chair: I’m going to give way to the hon. Member from Charlottetown-Sherwood for recognition of guests. Mr. Currie: Yeah, we’ve been off clinical services (Indistinct). Mr. Mitchell: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’d like to take a moment to recognize somebody that came into the gallery just a few moments ago. It’s one of our former Pages, Sarah MacLean, who has dropped by today to say hello. Sarah is actually a constituent of the Member from Stratford-Kinlock, and she spent a lot of time and did a lot of great work for us as members in the House a couple of years ago, but she still continues to do that for some of the MLAs in this House as a dedicated staff member at Home Hardware in Sherwood. She’s always willing to give you a hand when you walk in the door. An Hon. Member: (Indistinct) material. Mr. Mitchell: Good to have you in, Sarah.


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Oh, and she’s reading the – she’s got her copy of the budget up there as well. So, she’s following along. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Chair: Thank you, hon. member. I, too, will take the opportunity to welcome Sarah here. It’s nice to see her smiling face when I go into Home Hardware every once in a while. Thank you. Let’s stick to clinical services. Don’t get off-task. Mr. Perry: You’re talking about Beach Grove going to Summerside and the Summerside patients going to Alberton. Are there patients right now travelling from Summerside using the dialysis services in Alberton? It’s clinical services. Mr. Currie: No, it’s not. Mr. Perry: We’re not at clinical services? Hospital Clinical Services. Mr. Currie: If you give me a minute I’ll clarify that. The section and the delivery of dialysis services comes under home care. So it’s not in clinical services. Clinical services are a range of services, diagnostic imaging, and ultrasound, and so on. We can continue to get into that when the time comes. I’m just trying to, I mean, this is a very important section of the budget, and these are about services that are all across the province. In all due respect, if we could – Mr. Perry: No, that’s good for the clarification. Chair: Next, we go to the hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters, then the hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock, and then the hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter.

The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Myers: On professional contract services you have budgeted for purchased service and lab, and it’s 528,000. Could you tell me what that’s for? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: It’s comprised primarily of purchase services for the chemistry lab, for hematology lab and for the microbiology. They have to, on occasion, send out specialized tests to other labs out of the province. Mr. Myers: Are these other hospitals they get sent to? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: They could be other hospitals. I can’t confirm exactly where they go to. Mr. Myers: You can’t give me a breakdown of who that money goes to? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: If you give me one moment. Mr. Currie: Yes, we’ll get a breakdown. That would be when they need broader evaluation on the diagnosis. That would be – so the biggest one would be Capital District Health Authority, Nova Scotia, who we have a strong partnership with, that would be almost 300,000. You look at the IWK-Grace Health Centre, that’s 233. If you look at purchase service lab, that would be almost 700,000. The Athena Diagnostics Inc., Children’s hospital medical centre, Children’s Hospital of Eastern Ontario, East Coast Genetics, Eclipse, Federal Express Canada, obviously 600 bucks, NeuroScience Inc., Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, Saint John Regional Hospital, University of Florida, University of Prince Edward Island– Mr. Myers: Can we get a copy of that? Mr. Currie: Yes. Mr. Myers: Can we also get a copy of the one above it, which is purchase services general? Mr. Currie: Yes.


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Mr. Myers: Okay, thank you. Chair: Let’s go to the hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock for a question on this section, Provincial Clinical Services. Mr. Aylward: Mine is right along the same line with the hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. With specific line on the detail breakdown, the purchase service lab, again, as he mentioned, 528,700, I’m just wondering what the reduction is from the previous year, where you were at 626,500, basically, 100,000 savings there? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: The forecast number is higher than the current year budget, because last year we had some one-time only costs due to new equipment coming in and correlation services being required. That would be part of the decrease. There was also, in that particular year, a spike in the demand for some specialized tests, which is what caused it to be a little higher in 2011-2012. Mr. Aylward: Okay. Then, within that, the equipment, would diagnostic equipment be included in those purchases within clinical services? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: No. Most of the diagnostic equipment is supported by funding from the QEH Foundation, as well as the other foundations across the province. Mr. Aylward: So, as an example, this fall, when the plan, right now, is to close down those two facilities in the eastern and western ends of the Island, will those pieces of equipment be taken out and moved into Summerside and Charlottetown? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: I am not aware of any plans to close diagnostic imaging centres in the eastern or western ends of the province. Mr. Aylward: Sorry, I meant, with referring to the dialysis equipment. Denise Lewis Fleming Director: The dialysis equipment we can address when we get to home care, but those pieces are actually bought by Health PEI, not by the foundations.

Mr. Aylward: Okay, thank you. Chair: Thank you, hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Now, we’re going to the hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter and then the hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville. Ms. Biggar: Actually, my question was in regard to the purchase lab fees and stuff. So, I do have some other questions in the next section. Chair: So, you are okay? Ms. Biggar: I’m done, yes. Chair: Thank you. The hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville. Mr. Murphy: I’m just wondering when the Alberton and Souris clinics are scheduled to close dialysis clinics. Mr. Currie: We can talk about dialysis. Actually the section we’re on right now is – Mr. Murphy: Oh, we passed it already, did we? Mr. Currie: No, no, we’re moving into it. I’m just trying to stay focused on this budget. It’s an important area, and it’s not getting – Chair: Do you have a question on clinical services or are you okay? Mr. Murphy: I do have another question. Tests and stuff, are there a lot more tests being ordered by doctors now than, say, five years ago? Mr. Currie: There is a huge demand on a range of services. We’re seeing growth. It’s 1.9 million assessments or tests being required. We are seeing an impact on growth. A lot of times when a physician is working with a patient, from a liability perspective they want to make sure they’re very thorough with their assessments. But we are looking at ways to look at utilization and ways that we can manage that moving forward. Because it’s putting, with a


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high volume of tests that are coming on the system, a huge demand on our diagnostic services. We’re looking at ways to be more efficient and utilized, and work with the physicians to say: Maybe, instead of four tests, you’ll need two tests. But it becomes that discussion around liability and their professional ethics and things like that. Chair: Thank you. The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters, you have another question on this section? Mr. Myers: Yes, well, I’m waiting on the breakdowns that we asked for before we move on. Denise Lewis Fleming Director: I will bring them back. Mr. Myers: Oh, okay, I thought we were getting them copied right now. We’re not going to have them today? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: No, I will have them delivered. Mr. Myers: I’m done asking questions as long as they’re going to bring them back. Chair: Thank you, member. Shall it carry? Carried. Mr. Currie: So you want a list of those, on that 575,000, those companies that we outsourced to to support diagnostic services? Mr. Myers: Yes, and the same with the general. Mr. Currie: Okay. Chair: Total Hospital Clinical Services: 32,817,300. Shall it carry? Carried. Now, we’re going to the section on the bottom of page 108. Provincial Ambulance and Drug Programs.

“Appropriations provided for the delivery of provincial drug programs and ambulance services on PEI. The provincial drug programs are mainly delivered through community retail pharmacies or, in the case of Provincial Pharmacy delivered programs, directly to clients.” Administration: 72,000. Equipment: 5,600. Materials, Supplies and Services: 549,000. Professional and Contract Services: 1,054,700. Salaries: 1,346,500. Travel and Training: 46,700. Grants: 48,097,500. Total Provincial Ambulance and Drug Programs: 51,172,000. The hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter. Ms. Biggar: Minister, there was a recent decision to go with the generic drugs under the pharmacy for seniors’ programs, especially. There are a couple of seniors I was talking with who went to renew their blood pressure medicine and the pharmacist gave them the generic, but the generic drugs do not work for them as determined by their doctor. They ended up paying $70 to renew their prescription out of their own pocket. What provision is there in a case where it’s proven by the doctor that the generic drugs do not keep their blood pressure under control? Mr. Currie: I can’t speak specifically, obviously that’s a clinical discussion. I know that this whole discussion around drugs, we pay the most for generic drugs than any province in Canada today and that has to change and it will change. One of the things that we’re looking at, we’re acting on now, is we’ll be bringing legislation in, the fair drug pricing legislation on the interchangeability. We’re currently working right now – the agreement with the pharmacists expired. Currently there is a rebate that goes back to pharmacists when a drug comes off a brand onto a generic. There are rebates that are placed back to the pharmacists and the owners. We as government are saying, as the last province in Canada, that we are taking back a percentage of the rebate and we are going to be opening up – we’re in agreement right now with the pharmacy association and we’re having good conversations.


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They’re looking at obviously losing the rebate. We see some opportunities to negotiate new services that they’ll be remunerated for as part of losing that rebate. But also, that rebate will be reinvested back in expanding drugs on our provincial formulary. As government we recognize, and all of us have heard the questions, the cost of, for example, high cost of cancer drugs. We’ve increased drug spending in five years. We’ve added probably about 155 new drugs to the formulary in five years. We really have come a long way from where we were, but more work needs to be done. As we take back the rebates we’re going to make sure that we reinvest some of those resources back into expanding formulary for particularly low-income Islanders. I’ve got a constituency and I’ve got a number of seniors’ housing units and this is a big issue for seniors. We’re increased the co-pay. We’ve made inroads in reducing the cost of the diabetic strips which is about $100 a month for type 2 diabetics. We’ve made some inroads. We’re the last province that has not gone after the generic rebate. I’ve been very clear with the pharmacists and the owners and operators that this will no longer continue and we will be creating listing agreements with the pharmacy. We need to get in line with other jurisdictions that are facing the same pressures, particularly on the intense cost and the changing revolution of drug therapy and with the technology and the cost of drugs. In respect to your question around generic versus brand, my understanding is that it’s very individual. Sometimes generics respond very well. Individuals who change medications and go on to generics respond very well. Some respond better, but some don’t. Very difficult for me to make a determination of a clinical drug therapy consult. Ms. Biggar: All I want, minister, is clarification on if there is an option for them to go to where it’s been determined – Mr. Currie: Part of the work that we’re doing on the negotiation, we’re looking at the generic rebates coming back to Islanders. We’re looking at the pharmacy agreement. We’re also looking currently

right now at the – right now we’ve got probably 30 different drug formularies. For example, every senior in the Province of Prince Edward Island has access to the same level of drugs. Even if your retirement income is 100,000 you have the same level of access in the public program that an Islander, senior, living who’s making 15,000 a year. We need to look at all the programs and we will. We need to look at equity. We need to be respectful of access. It’s one of my priorities as the minister that we go into a full engagement to look at ways that we can provide fair drug access to seniors living particularly on fixed incomes. That’s really important. I know everyone in this Assembly would support that. Ms. Biggar: Okay. Chair: Thank you, member. Before we move on, I want to go to the hon. Minister of Environment, Labour and Justice and Attorney General for recognition of guests. Ms. Sherry: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just noticed in the gallery this afternoon I have constituents, Doreen and Clem Gallant and Noel and Elaine Gaudet, friends, neighbours and great community people from the great city of Summerside. Welcome. Thank you. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Chair: Thank you, minister. I want to take this opportunity also, I know Clem and Doreen from about 75 years ago. The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Myers: Okay, thank you. There is a day truck in Kings County, an ambulance, and quite often a high percentage of time when it starts for the day and signs in, it goes to the Crossroads fire department and it sits there until it’s called. It’s a Montague truck. It’s their day truck


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and it’s the truck that was supposed to help cut down on wait times in that area. I guess what it boils down to is what I’m hearing is there is probably a need for two more trucks so that the Montague truck can stay in Montague and the volume of calls in Charlottetown can still be met. How do we go about making sure that that’s properly addressed so that we’re getting reasonable wait times for an ambulance in the country? Mr. Currie: What, to expand the number of vehicles? Mr. Myers: Yeah. Mr. Currie: We have expanded the number of vehicles. Right now – and I do have some information coming back that you asked for. I was looking at it this morning, but I need to – I pushed it back to make sure the numbers were accurate and confirmed. Right now, I think I saw the statistics that average wait time in the area is approximately anywhere from 20 to 23, 24 minutes per call. That’s average 90% of the time. We have expanded, if you look at the number of ambulance posts. The vehicle, I believe, that you’re referring to in St. Peters is a day vehicle so it’s only there during the day. Mr. Myers: It’s the Montague truck. I guess it’s supposed to be the day truck for St. Peters, but it hasn’t gone to St. Peters since August. Mr. Currie: To clarify that, there are 2 trucks in Montague and there is a day truck in St. Peters. Mr. Myers: It’s never in St. Peters, it goes to Crossroads. Mr. Currie: I made a note on – when that information came to me I said it was brought to my attention that – so anyway, I’ll get confirmation on that and bring that information back. Mr. Myers: I’ll go to St. Peters tomorrow and I’ll go Sunday and I’ll go Monday and I’ll tell you how many times I see it there. I’ll sit there all day if I have to.

Mr. Currie: I may be driving through St. Peters on the weekend. Mr. Myers: It will probably be there now that they know you’re coming. It didn’t matter if I was coming. Mr. Currie: I’ll wear a pair of glasses and a (Indistinct) moustache and drive an old beat up truck. Chair: The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Myers: We know that there is added stress on the ambulances and that’s why I say I think that we still need more vehicles. There are the off-Island transports and we know that there are a lot of trucks that do that. But there are a lot of trucks now tied up because of diversions. Can you bring back to the House for us – I know you probably don’t have it on you – how many total hours the QEH ER has been on diversion the last six months? Mr. Currie: Sure. Mr. Myers: Just to use. Because we know for those hours trucks are tied up transporting people. They could be going to Prince County or – Mr. Currie: (Indistinct) understanding as I’ve learned about (Indistinct) services, you’ve got what’s called a dynamic system. What a dynamic system is is that we have a system that responds to volume. If we have four calls coming in within the range of 60 minutes, which could happen in the eastern part of the province, then there is a redeployment of vehicles to support those four calls. As calls come in vehicles are moving. They work very closely with the advanced care paramedics. It’s a dynamic system in respect. A vehicle just doesn’t go to a call and then drive back, vehicles are moving to back up all the time. For example, if two vehicles are required in Murray River, then the St. Peters vehicle could move into Montague, for example. Because they evaluate the volume of calls per area. If you look at the demand of volumes by base, right now we’ve seen an intense growth on ambulance calls over the last number of years. Summerside, for


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example, the volumes are approximately 18% of total calls. Charlottetown is approximately 42%, Alberton 9%, O’Leary 9%. Montague is 17%. Souris is 5% of the total calls. Our total calls in 2011 were approximately almost 14,000 calls. It’s a dynamic system. The system is responding depending on the level of acuity and the level of triage and support that’s needed. For example, if it’s a cardiac arrest it may need a certain level of vehicles. There’s a professional approach how they attack, and it’s all about volume and vehicles are moving all the time. Mr. Myers: I do understand that. Just back to the diversion thing, and the diversion is part of what’s causing the vehicles to be moving all the time, as I understand it. My understanding is from many conversations – Mr. Currie: No, no. I talked about it last night. Diversion is a result of hospitals in this province not meeting their expected level of stays. Because what’s happening, I used the example last night, if you’re not meeting expected levels of stays, if your hospital beds are tied up because we’re extending patients in those beds compared to other hospitals, that’s resulting in bed blockages and that’s resulting in seniors being medically discharged. As a result, it’s impacting the wait times in the emergency room and it’s impacting the number of people that can be triaged. It’s basically a flow issue. That’s what I talked about. Mr. Myers: I understand that. What I’m saying to you, though, is when they’re on diversion it causes ambulances to be travelling more and because they’re travelling more, they’re not able to respond. When they’re on diversion, instead of stopping at the QEH and that’s it, they’re done, and then they’re back in the system, they’re being diverted. Now they have to go to maybe the Prince County ward to Kings County. I believe sometimes they’re even transported to Moncton when they’re on full diversion. Mr. Currie: The issue’s not as much about diversion. I mean, a lot of times there’s diversion, but there’s still – Mr. Myers: But what I’m saying is it causes stress on the ambulances.

Mr. Currie: Well, no. The volume of calls – vehicles are constantly moving. Some Hon. Members: (Indistinct). Mr. Currie: Vehicles are constantly moving in (Indistinct) – Mr. Myers: You guys may not want to believe it, but it’s true. I’ve done more research into this than you fellows have. Mr. Currie: No, no. I think I’ve got a pretty good handle on the department. Mr. Myers: I’m not talking to you. I’m talking to the ones that are smirking at me over there. Mr. Currie: Anyway, I need to make a point here. Mr. Perry: Diversion is when you don’t answer questions. Mr. Currie: Yeah. Mr. Myers: That’s aversion. Mr. Currie: We’ve got a dynamic system. Diversion is a result of the volume of calls on the ambulances. If you’re – Mr. Myers: Yes. See, that’s fine. Mr. Currie: If you’re a code one coming in from Montague, you are going into triage immediately. You’re the number one priority. There’s a code one called. The urgent trauma or code ones, twos and threes are getting immediate priority regardless if vehicles are moving anywhere. If there’s a patient that’s coming in because they are not feeling good and they had a fall and it’s non-urgent, they may be diverted in respect to the priority if it’s a code one coming in. So number one priority is the code ones, code twos coming through in the emergency rooms. They get first priority because they’re the most urgent. Mr. Myers: Okay. So just tie it back up then, because – Chair: The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters.


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Mr. Myers: – it is an important issue and I’m not trying to open debate on diversion. What I’m trying to talk about is ambulances. Why don’t we go for a year? How many hours QEH has been on diversion in a year, how many hours Kings County Memorial Hospital’s been on diversion in a year, and how many hours Prince County Hospital has been on diversion for the year? Mr. Currie: But I do want to clarify there’s two factors. This factor of diversion is not necessarily because of – ambulances are constantly moving, okay? Mr. Myers: No, I know. Yeah, I know. Mr. Currie: The other issue is the big part of this discussion around diversion is that our facilities, and that’s why we’re looking at utilization and looking at supports from other hospitals. If we’ve got bed vacancies in Montague, in Tyne Valley, in Alberton and O’Leary, we need to transition Islanders that are in those beds that are not acute patients, are on post-surgery recovery. As a hospital, if we’re not matching and not meeting our length of stays compared to other hospitals, it’s a huge impact on our ability to provide services in a range of areas in the hospital. That’s part of diversion too. Mr. Myers: Yeah, very much. The whole system impacts on itself and I understand that. But having the information and having the response time information altogether, it certainly builds a bigger picture for all of us when we have this discussion. We’re not limited by what we don’t know anymore. That’s the reason that I ask, because it’s – Mr. Currie: Okay. We’re also working currently right now, like, we purchased the dual vehicle and basically three years ago we were dealing with single vehicles going back and forth to the IWK, the QEII. Those vehicles were coming off the road. The transport vehicle was purchased. Now that alleviates the number of vehicles that are leaving the province to stay on the roads of Prince Edward Island. Plus we’re also working with EMS to look at inner facility transfers to look at ways that we can be more efficient. Anytime you have a vehicle with an individual in the facility and they’re just transporting, that’s taking that vehicle off the road in respect to emergency calls.

So we’re looking at ways. There’s constantly ways that we’re evaluating to look at more efficiencies. We recognize the volume going up, but our response times in respect to the average response times are, you know the provincial average is 23 minutes 90% of the time. That’s a broad statistic, but there could be a situation on one particular call where there’s another call and there’s a five-minute delay on that, beyond that average length of time call. It’s just a constantly moving – Mr. Myers: The stats will show that when you table them. Mr. Currie: Yeah. Mr. Myers: I don’t mind going through the stats and picking the anomalies out for you. Mr. Currie: Oh, yeah. Chair: Thank you, member. Now we’re going to the hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock, and we do have a lineup after Stratford-Kinlock. Then we’re going to the hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter, then to the hon. Member from Souris-Elmira, then to the hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville. Question, the hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock, on this section. Mr. Aylward: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Minister, I understand from a statement previously that by the introduction of the new generic drug plan and working with the pharmacies that it’s going to save your department basically 2.5 million. Is that correct? Mr. Currie: We are going to say I don’t know. Denise Lewis Fleming Director: (Indistinct). Mr. Currie: Yeah, that was in the speech. That’s right. Basically what the generic, right now when a drug comes off patent, pharmacists and owners and operations get rebates back to support the generic. Mr. Aylward: Right.


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Mr. Currie: Basically other provinces have gone in. Ontario was the first five years ago. They were one of the first that did this and then other provinces lined up and followed behind. New Brunswick, I think, is almost there and we’re moving in that direction. I’m saying as minister that rebate has to come back to the province for reinvestment in health care, reinvestment in expanding the formulary. We’re going to work with – we’ve got a very positive conversation going on right now with the pharmacy association. Pharmacists are saying if we’re going to look at expanding our scope and provide services, we want to get paid for those. That’s reasonable. Currently, right now, it could be medication consults, it could be pharmacists providing flu shots. We’re in negotiation right now and that’s a very important conversation we’re having. We respect the role of pharmacists in communities across Prince Edward Island. I am all about and very supportive of pharmacists working to expand its scope to take pressure off walk-in clinics, physician offices. Pharmacists have direct frontline contact with Islanders and they play a very important role. But I’ve been very clear that that rebate has to come back. We’re looking at taking back a percentage of that to reinvest back into the agreement, reinvest back into new drugs to the formulary, and making the ability for Islanders to have a more accessible, affordable access to generic drugs. Mr. Aylward: What percentage of the rebate is the government getting back that you’re taking away from the pharmacists? Mr. Currie: Yeah. To be honest, we’re currently negotiating that right now so it’d be premature for me to interrupt to make a public statement, and I’m not up to speed. But there is a negotiation going on. That rebate is being negotiated. The pharmacists are going to try to – but I’ve been very clear that the expectation is going to be: You’re not getting all the generic rebate back. It’s just not happening. We’re going to follow in line with other jurisdictions and we’re going to be very respectful. They’re an important player in the health care system, but we’ll negotiate that and we’re currently doing that right

now. It’s premature for me to say what percentage is going back on that rebate. Mr. Aylward: Okay. I want to be on record as well that I’m fully supportive of increasing the scope of the pharmacists. I think it’s a great direction to be going in and I think, potentially, you’re going to see cost savings there as well, in particular the shelf life of vaccines and things like that. Mr. Currie: I think there’s some opportunity. I think that. We also recognize that the volume keeps coming. Like the demand on the system, if you look at ambulance calls, or you look at the emergency rooms, or you look at wait times for long-term care, the demand keeps coming. It’s trying to sort of manage the demand and kind of get ahead of it. I don’t think we’ll ever get ahead of it, but I think we can try to manage it. But pharmacists are going to be – they’re highly engaged, I’ve been highly upfront with them. I’ve made public statements that they are very much part of the direction that we’re going in in health care, particularly primary health care. We look at clinics in Murray River, potential primary networks in Morell, Tyne Valley, the new one we built, so there’s opportunities there. Mr. Aylward: Okay. The next question would be with regards to the projected $2.5 million in cost savings for your department. Has there been any consideration at all introducing a catastrophic drug plan, which has been asked for for many years now, particularly by the NGOs and the Canadian Cancer Society and different organizations such as that? Mr. Currie: You just made the comment about cost savings. I don’t see the generics as a rebate, as a cost savings. I see it as an opportunity to expand the relationship and services with pharmacists, but also reinvest. For example, there’s a high percentage of public money, taxpayers’ money, that goes into public programs that Islanders pay for. Those rebates that are currently going to pharmacy now will be reinstated back –reinvested, I should say, back into pharmacists and new opportunities.


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In respect to a catastrophic drug program, we as government have made substantial investment in overall spending in drug programs. I think it’s about a 40% increase since 2007. I think the increase – we’ve added approximately 154 new drugs to the formulary. To say that we’re going to introduce a catastrophic program today, we’ve been working closely with the federal government, in partnership. That conversation has been going on now for years. The federal government has made it very clear that they’re not interested in getting into catastrophic drug partnerships, so as a province we recognize we have to find ways to add more drugs to the formulary, and this is exactly what we’re doing here right now. We’re looking at current programs, we’re looking at access, equity, we’re looking at the rebates coming back to reinvest in the formulary. We’re looking at other ways. Currently, right now, the fiscal, to add a catastrophic drug program, I don’t know the cost, but it’s fairly substantial. As opposed to sort of just – not saying we can’t do a catastrophic drug program, I’m looking at other ways on the agreement, on the generic rebate, on evaluating and making the current programs more efficient. Is it fair and reasonable to Islanders who are making 15,000 a year on a fixed income to have the same access that Islanders that have a retirement income of 100,000? These are all things that we’re evaluating and looking at, just like every other province in the country. It’s about equity, access and drug fairness. Mr. Aylward: Okay. Another question. Chair: Go ahead, the hon. Member from Stratford-Kinlock. Mr. Aylward: On your budget line for materials, supplies and services, I’m just wondering why we would see basically a half a million dollar increase this fiscal year as compared to last fiscal year? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: That particular drug line, the majority of it, almost $506,000, relates to funding for the drug Avastin - Mr. Aylward: Sorry, to the drug? Denise Lewis Fleming Director: Avastin.

Mr. Aylward: Avastin. Okay. Denise Lewis Fleming Director: Which is a cancer treatment drug. It was previously located down within the public drug programs. However, it has to be delivered through cancer treatment centre, so therefore it falls now under materials, supplies and services. It’s just a budget adjustment from one line to the other. Mr. Aylward: All right. Thank you. Chair: Okay. Thank you, the hon. Member for Stratford-Kinlock. We’re now going over to the hon. Member from Tyne Valley-Linkletter. Ms. Biggar: A couple of lines there under your grants, they’re kind of, I think, tied together. The high cost drugs, I see you have a bit of a reduction in that coverage, and just on the line above it, the financial assistance, there seems to be a reduction there. I know I have a person who takes a needle for colitis. It’s very expensive. Mr. Currie: Yeah. Basically, that is directly tied in to the fact that we’re bringing in legislation on the interchangeability drug act which we’ll be tabling before the House. That’s a result of the savings from bringing in the rebates, going from a patent to a generic. Ms. Biggar: Okay. How many drugs are under that high cost drug program? Do you have how many people are accessing the service? Mr. Currie: Right now we’ve got the Seniors’ Drug Cost Assistance Program, right now we’ve got total paid claims over 400,000. Ms. Biggar: That’s under high cost drugs? Mr. Currie: No, I’m just giving you a little bit of an overview. Ms. Biggar: Oh, okay. Sorry.


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Mr. Currie: That’s a cost of almost 15 million. The high cost cancer drugs, approximately 115 persons using the program per year. The coverage of medication is provided through the high cost drugs and therapies program to cancer patients who meet at established clinical criteria. Income assessment is completed to determine co-pay amount. Drugs currently covered are Gleevec, Sprycel, Tarceva, Sutent. Avastin is another one. Some of these high cost drugs are very costly. We also have the multiple sclerosis medications cost assistant program. That also supports the high cost to MS drugs for Islanders needing that. Currently, total claims there is almost 800 and the budget amount there is approximately 1.1 million. Ms. Biggar: I just know someone else who is on another high cost drug, so I just want (Indistinct) that in. Mr. Currie: (Indistinct) in this discussion on expanding drug formulary, and I’m very passionate about policy and ways that – but I’m not prepared to sit around and wait for the federal government to say: We’re in with you. I think we got to act now and that’s why we’re bringing in legislation in the generics. We need to find ways that we can provide access to expand our formulary. It’s all about drug fairness and equity and access for Islanders that need it. Ms. Biggar: Thank you. Chair: Thank you. The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira, question on this section. Mr. LaVie: Thanks, Chair. I want to go back to the ambulance because it’s a hot issue up my way too, right. When you drive through St. Peters don’t bother looking in at the fire hall because the ambulance will not be there. We’re first responders, St. Peters is first responders. We have a little idea and it hasn’t been there for some time now. Every time Montague ambulance is diverted, the ambulance in Kings County is diverted to Montague from Souris. Once our ambulance gets a call there is no ambulance to cover us.

Why is that? If the Montague ambulance is diverted it’s gone. Ours goes down to Montague. But if ours is on a call, there is nobody comes up to cover us. Mr. Currie: I don’t have specifics on the – when I use the term dynamic, I’m referring to the process how the vehicles move. As I said, I will bring the information back. I’ll certainly take your question – I will challenge you, Member from Souris-Elmira. Some of the statements about these phantom vehicles that are located in various – Mr. Myers: (Indistinct) they’re leaving. There’s a big difference, they’re leaving, big difference. Mr. Currie: Can I finish the statement? Mr. LaVie: Finish. Mr. Currie: That’s been clearly asked of me, explained to me, that these vehicles are supposed to be there but they’re never there. What I need to find out, and I have taken the question under advisement, I will bring that information back. I do have some information that I received this morning but I didn’t have time to make sure it was accurate. I sent it back to Island EMS and I said: I want 110% accuracy on the facts and where these vehicles are, and we’ll bring that information. I’m not going to get into a debate. If I’m being told the vehicles are there, you’re saying they’re not there. Mr. Myers: (Indistinct). Mr. Currie: I’m not arguing, I’m just saying. I’m getting information here that is conflicting. One from your side, which you’re supposed to challenge. Mr. Myers: I know how much truth there is in (Indistinct) 100%. Mr. Currie: I can’t verify that until I get the facts. Chair: The hon. Member from Souris-Elmira, you have another question. Mr. LaVie: You’re going to bring the information back to Georgetown –


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Mr. Currie: I’ll bring it back to the opposition. We can share it. Mr. LaVie: So, you tell us what type of calls these are? Mr. Currie: Yeah. Mr. LaVie: You’ll tell us the type of calls they are? Mr. Currie: I’ll get a breakdown. The volume right now – this is in 2011. The volume in Souris was 5% of the total calls of 14,000 calls. Looking at the time – if you look at the emergency calls, the provincial average is around 23 minutes, in Souris it’s around 24 minutes. Mr. LaVie: But when you say emergency calls, will you let us know if it’s a stroke, if it’s heart, if it’s – Mr. Currie: The emergency calls that were deemed emergency were 305 calls in Souris. Three hundred and five is the breakdown, which is the 5% of the total overall calls in the province. The emergency calls were 305, the urgent calls were 137, 215 transfers from Souris, for a total calls of 657. Mr. LaVie: You’ve got all the numbers there, but it doesn’t say if it’s heart, stroke, broken leg. Or will I get that? Mr. Currie: What I’ll do, I’ll bring that back. There are two columns here. One is emergency. That would probably be a code 1, 2 or 3. An urgent could be a level 4 or 5 (Indistinct). I’ll bring that back. Chair: Thank you. Next to the hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville. Mr. Murphy: Thank you. I have two questions on it. What is on the EMS? Does it have to be EMS that provides non-emergency services? If there is a person from Maplewood Manor who has to be transported to the Western Hospital, does that have to be EMS, or could that be some other provider? Mr. Currie: We do have a contractual arrangement that we – and the service that

we have on Prince Edward Island, as far as ground ambulance, the EMS, which is Island EMS here, which was brought in prior to us coming into government. We’ve had the opportunity to build on the number of vehicles to reduce wait times. We’ve had the ability to purchase multi-passenger vehicles. The system is expanding and we’re constantly evolving the system and we’re building on it. Currently, right now, Island EMS is working with Health PEI to look at ways they can manage inter-facility transfers. You raise a good question, hon. Member from Alberton-Roseville: Is there another service that could be available? But when you’re transporting somebody from one hospital to the other, my first priority would be safety, making sure that we have the appropriate level of trained personnel that are training them, making sure that we have appropriate vehicles transfer. There is always the discussion, too, of infection control. That’s why when you look at vehicles in a single-transport vehicle you can’t have two people because of the risk of close contact with infections. There are medical decisions that are made. Part of the discussion, right now, they are looking at ways they can be efficient. But we do have a contract. I respect all contracts. It’s a substantial contract. It’s about a $9 million investment that we make every year. If today it’s 23 minutes on average length of call, why aren’t we shooting for 20 minutes, or why aren’t we shooting for 18 minutes? My expectation is that we always can be better, but it’s an evolution of how we – is it just about more vehicles? These are constant conversations that we have with EMS. Mr. Murphy: I guess my thought was just that if there was another service or another business providing that non-emergency transfer service, then it would leave the EMS to better respond, I guess. The trucks wouldn’t be – Mr. Currie: Yes, it’s really about the equipment that’s in the vehicle. Mr. Murphy: Right, and I understand that.


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Mr. Currie: And it’s about the professionals. These are the sort of conversations that are going on. They’re always looking at ways to do better. Do first responders have the ability to solely manage a level of non-urgent transfers? I don’t know. I know there’s been a number of people who have approached government to look at: I’ve got a little company here, I can transport whoever you want to transport. But we do have an agreement with EMS and we need to be respectful to that contract. Mr. Murphy: My second question was concerning the drug plan. Are we in any agreement? I know one time, I think, you were looking at – I don’t know if it was you who was the minister or the former minister – was looking at volume buying when it comes to drugs with other provinces. Mr. Currie: Yes, well, right now, after being sworn in – and I was into this discussion back in 2007-2008. There’s no reason, in this day and age, particularly from a regional perspective, just looking at Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, that we aren’t looking at strategies. We’ve done a few, we’ve made a few inroads in bulk purchasing. There is no reason why we aren’t looking at major bulk purchasing from a regional perspective. It’s economies of the scales. If you look at the Province of Ontario, they’re the largest drug buyer in North America. Mr. Murphy: Maybe we’ll have a good connection there now (Indistinct). Mr. Currie: I’ve directed my deputy to start aggressive conversations around bulk purchasing of drugs. If we can be more efficient because of economies of scales and access drugs at a cheaper price as opposed to being a sole-source buyer, that is the way we have to go. There’s been a more collaborative conversation around that at the senior deputy table because of the fiscal challenges that Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are in. I’m optimistic that we’re going to make some progressive steps in that. Chair: Thank you.

The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Currie: Just another think I want to add. Chair: Oh, okay. Mr. Currie: Health PEI has just recently joined a national organization for bulk purchasing with other jurisdictions. So Health PEI, too, is looking at ways that they can buy supplies and be more efficient, and drugs too. Chair: Thank you. The hon. Member from Georgetown-St. Peters. Mr. Myers: Back to ambulances again. When an ambulance leaves, and we talk about the rural areas. Probably the Member from Souris-Elmira can speak to this better, because he is the fire chief. But – An Hon. Member: He’s the fire chief? An Hon. Member: You’re the fire chief, right? Mr. Myers: Yeah, he’s the fire chief. An Hon. Member: Plus he’s a fisherman. Mr. Myers: Plus he’s a fisherman, plus he volunteered to run the rink. Chair: Multi-tasker. Mr. Currie: When does he sleep? Mr. Myers: He comes here and works, and then he’ll sleep in July. Mr. Currie: Are you planning on sleeping here? Mr. Myers: So whenever they get rerouted or they get pulled out or say that the Souris truck goes to Montague, when there’s need for an ambulance quite often the fire department will get called. They have a great fire department. I know it happens in St. Peters, and they have a great fire department too. It’s credit to them. But a lot of the members, their firefighters and their first responders have jobs. They all have


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jobs. Whenever they have to go – not that anybody’s complaining about it – but when they go they’re leaving their jobs to do the ambulance’s work sometimes. They don’t get paid anything for that. They’re volunteers. Has there ever been any thought to, especially in places where they’re filling the void that Island EMS can’t fill, that there’s extra money that could be granted for those calls to the fire departments to help them keep their gear up? Because, I mean, it’s expensive, and he can probably speak to it better than I can, but it’s expensive just to buy the turnout gear for one. Mr. Currie: Yeah. Those are good questions. When I was the minister responsible for public safety I got a stronger appreciation for the role of first responders and the role of community fire departments, and got brought up to speed on the opportunities and the roles that first responders can play. I was very much part of a government that was very much supportive of community fire departments in respect to I think the Island Community Fund supported a lot of facilities across the province. I know that I was very much engaged with the East River Fire Department. We were able to support them to purchase a Jaws of Life. Through that discussion, sort of understanding as we met with them, they explained to me sort of the number of calls they get to – Ms. Casey: Call the hour. Mr. Currie: – in a timely manner in respect to the time of the ambulance to get there. It’s pretty interesting, but anyway, we’ll get – Chair: The hour has been called. Mr. Currie: Mr. Chair, I move the Speaker take the chair and that the Chair report progress and beg leave to sit again. Chair: Shall it carry? Carried. Madam Speaker, as Chair of a Committee of the Whole House, having had under consideration the grant of supply to Her Majesty, I beg leave to report that the committee has made some progress and begs leave to sit again. I move that the report of the committee be adopted.

Speaker: Shall it carry? Carried. The hon. Government House Leader. Mr. Gallant: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move, seconded by the hon. Member from Summerside-St. Eleanors, that this House adjourn until Tuesday, May 8, at 2:00 p.m. Speaker: Shall it carry? Carried. Have a good weekend, members. Some Hon. Members: You too. The Legislature adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 2:00 p.m.