olar. - harold weisbergjfk.hood.edu/collection/weisberg subject index files/g disk/guinn... · mr....
TRANSCRIPT
r 488
HS C
VO
L
7-F
fc—I
Com
mission?
expert o
pin
ion, d
id th
e FB
I do an
adeq
uate jo
b in
their b
allistics test after th
e death
of P
residen
t Ken
ned
y an
d fo
r the W
arren
explanation of? to
day
that y
ou w
ould
like to
com
men
t on o
r mak
e any ex
tra rev
olv
ers relating to
any o
f the testim
ony th
at has b
een g
iven
m
embers: Is there anything related to the rifle or either of the tw
o
olar. E
DG
AR
. Than
k y
ou. L
et me ju
st ask each
of y
ou as p
anel
Mr.
ED
GA
R.
Let m
e ask y
ou o
ne fin
al questio
n, th
en. In
your
Mr. C
HA
MP
AG
NE
. No, sir.
Mr.
CH
AM
PA
GN
E. I w
ould
say, co
nsid
ering th
e pressu
res at the
time, the F
BI did a very good job.
Mr. E
DG
AR
. Are th
ere any tests th
at you w
ould
hav
e done at th
e tim
e that were not done?
Mr. C
HA
MP
AG
NE
. No, sir.
. M
r. E
DG
AR
. Than
k y
ou. M
r. Chairm
an, I h
ave n
o fu
rther q
ues-
tions. C
hairman
STO
KE
S. The tim
e of th
e gen
tleman
has ex
pired
. The
Chair recognizes the gentlem
an from Indiana, M
r. Fithian.
Mr.
FIT
HIA
N. T
han
k y
ou, M
r. Chairm
an. I w
onder if th
e pan
el, any one of all of you, w
ould comm
ent on what has been one of the
widely w
ritten about and discussed features of the actual shooting. A
s I understan
d it, th
e distan
ce from
the w
indow
where O
swald
w
as supposed
to h
ave b
een lo
cated to
the P
residen
t was 1
65 feet.
With
that w
eapon w
hich
you n
ow
hav
e insp
ected an
d test fired
, how
difficult a shot is it with the scope or w
ithout the scope, sort of from
left to right? M
r. L
UT
Z. T
he an
swer I w
ould
giv
e, I believ
e, would
be th
at it w
ould
not ap
pear to
be a d
ifficult sh
ot w
ith eith
er dev
ice with
reaso
nab
le trainin
g o
r a reasonab
le capab
ility o
f a firer that w
as fam
iliar with that firearm
. I
perso
nally
feel that th
e iron sig
hts w
ould
hav
e pro
vid
ed a
better cap
ability
becau
se of th
e pro
blem
s of sig
htin
g th
rough th
e oth
er dev
ice, thro
ugh-th
e telescopic sig
ht, b
ut I feel th
at it could
have very easily been accom
plished from that distancae w
ith that rifle.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. And w
ith th
e car movin
g at th
e estimated
speed
? M
r. L
UT
Z.
Fro
m th
e data I h
ave ab
out th
e movem
ent o
f the
veh
icle and th
e speed
s involv
ed, I still feel th
at it would
not h
ave
been a difficult target at that distance. M
r. F
ITH
IAN
. Is there an
y o
ther m
ember o
f tlit pan
el who b
e-lieves that it w
ould be somehow
an exceptional feat to have hit the target from
that range? M
r. BA
TE
S. I don't believe so, no.
Mr. C
HA
MP
AG
NE
. No, sir.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. Mr. N
ewquist stated, I believe, that the panel could
not m
atch th
eir ow
n test•fired
bullets w
ith eith
er the F
BI's tests
from 1963—
maybe I rnisnderstood this—
or the so-called pristine bullet th
at has b
een so
much
talked
about an
d th
e bullet frag
-m
ents removed from
the limousine?
One of the reasons theorized that a m
atch could not be made w
as th
at the rifle h
ad b
een fired
too o
ften, so
meh
ow
destro
yin
g
or
altering the land-and-groove markings. D
oes anyone on the panel know
how m
any times the w
eapon was fired by the F
BI?
489
Mr. B
AT
ES
. No; I do not.
Mr.
CH
AM
PA
GN
E. A
re you referrin
g ju
st to th
e FB
I firing it o
r the num
ber of times it w
as actually fired? M
r. FIm
LA
N. I w
as just going in the order I though: it was fired
once it w
as acquired by the FB
I and then by the comm
ittee panel and by anybody else. I w
as trying to get at how m
uch actual wear
and alteration there has been. L
et me rephrase the question. I am
informed by our counsel that
the w
eapon h
as been
fired o
ver 1
00 tim
es. Is that su
fficient w
ear th
at it would
significan
tly alter th
e mark
ings an
d :h
e iden
tifica-tions?
Mr. C
HA
MP
AG
NE
. Yes; I th
ink w
ith th
is type o
f weap
on an
d th
e ty
pe o
f bullets in
volv
ed, th
at it is. I thin
k th
at pro
bab
ly th
e w
eapon has been fired more than 100 tim
es. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. M
r. Chairm
an, I have no other questions of this panel.
Chairm
an STO
KE
S. The tim
e of the gentleman has expired.
Gen
tlemen
, any w
itnesses ap
pearin
g b
efore th
is com
mittee are
entitled, after they have concluded their testimony, to 5 additional
min
utes in
which
to ex
plain
, amplify
, or in
any m
anner ex
pan
d
upon th
eir testimony. O
n b
ehalf o
f the co
mm
ittee I at this tim
e ex
tend to
you 5
min
utes in
which
any o
f you m
ay m
ake an
y
comm
ents you so desire. M
r. Luzz. I d
on't b
elieve th
ere is any fu
rther ex
pan
din
g o
n th
e ex
amin
ations th
at we h
ave co
nducted
. I thin
k w
e feel that th
ey
have been as thorough as could have possibly been done. We have
been given the opportunity to examine every piece of evidence that
we asked for. W
e didn't have any restrictions. We w
eren't bound to co
me u
p w
ith a p
articular fin
din
g. S
o I th
ink in
that resp
ect we
hav
e been
very
fortu
nate to
conduct an
objectiv
e exam
inatio
n.
I also w
ould
like to
express o
n b
ehalf o
f the en
tire pan
el the
thanks to our own em
ployers, the State of W
isconsin, the State of
Florida, the S
tate of Iowa, the S
tate of New
York, and the M
etro-politan P
olice Departm
ent of the District of C
olumbia for allow
ing us to
particip
ate in th
is pan
el. I would
like fu
rther to
exten
d o
n
beh
alf of th
e entire p
anel o
ur ap
preciatio
n to
the staff o
f the
comm
ittee, for the assistance they have given us and especially to th
ank th
e com
mittee itself fo
r the p
rivileg
e and th
e honor o
f ap-
pearing before it. C
hairman ST
OK
ES. W
e certainly deem ourselves fortunate to have
had such a distinguished panel of experts lend their services to this cau
se. We ap
preciate all th
e time th
at you h
ave ex
pen
ded
on
beh
alf of th
e report th
at you h
ave b
rought to
the co
mm
ittee and
the testim
ony y
ou h
ave g
iven
us h
ere today
. We ex
press at th
is tim
e our very deep appreciation to each of you for the services that you have rendered. T
hank you. T
he Chair recognizes P
rofessor Blakey.
NA
RR
AT
ION
BY
G. R
OB
ER
T B
LA
KE
Y. C
HIE
F C
OU
NS
EL
AN
D
_ - S
TA
FF
DIR
EC
TO
R
Mr.
BL
AK
EY
. Than
k y
ou, M
r. Chairm
an. M
r. Chairm
an. th
ere have been several prior attem
pts to analyze missiles and fragm
ents recovered from
the assassination from the standpoint of their m
c-
491 -I tallic m
akeu
p to
determ
ine, fo
r one p
ossib
ility, if th
ey h
ave a
comm
on origin. In N
ovember and D
ecember 1963 the F
BI applied to the evidence
samples a technique called em
ission spectography. It is a process in w
hich
the sam
ples are su
bjected
to in
tense h
eat and th
eir metallic
com
positio
n is d
etermin
ed b
y th
e colo
r of th
e gas th
at is then
em
itted. E
missio
n sp
ectograp
hy, h
ow
ever, is n
ot h
ighly
sensitiv
e and the tests w
ere deemed by the F
BI inconclusive.
In May 1964 the F
BI also perform
ed neutron activation analysis on som
e of the samples. T
hat is a nuclear method to determ
ine the elem
ents p
resent. A
n an
alysis o
f trace elemen
ts found in
the
sample o
f similar m
aterials—fo
r exam
ple, b
ullet lead
—en
ables a
highly trained scientist to come to a conclusion as to the probabil-
ity of thesamples having a com
mon origin.
Nev
ertheless, "in
conclu
sive" w
as also th
e term u
sed b
y th
e FB
I to describe its neutron activation analysis. T
he report it submitted
to th
e Warren
Com
missio
n stated
that th
e tests would
not, q
uote,
,*perm
it positiv
ely d
ifferentiatin
g am
ong th
e larger b
ullet frag
-m
ents an
d th
us p
ositiv
ely d
etermin
ing fro
m w
hich
of th
e larger
bullet frag
men
ts any g
iven
small lead
fragm
ent m
ay h
ave co
me,"
unquote. T
he Warren C
omm
ission did not divulge that the neutron activa-tion analysis had taken place in its final report. Indeed the fact did not becom
e public until the early 1970's. H
opefu
l that n
ew tests m
ight su
cceed w
here o
ld effo
rts had
failed
, the co
mm
ittee engag
ed as a co
nsu
ltant D
r. Vin
cent P
. G
uin
n, p
rofesso
r of ch
emistry
at the U
niv
ersity o
f Califo
rnia at
Irvin
e. Dr. G
uin
n h
ad n
o relatio
n to
the W
arren C
om
missio
n. D
r. G
uinn analyzed the assassination evidence samples as w
ell as the bullet allegedly fired at G
eneral Walker.
In h
is experim
ents, D
r. Guin
n u
sed a h
igh reso
lutio
n lith
ium
-drifted germ
anium detector, a device that is far m
ore sensitive, and hopefu
lly accu
rate, than
the o
ne u
sed fo
r the F
BI test in
1964.
Dr. G
uin
n receiv
ed an
A.B
. and an
M.S
. deg
ree in ch
emistry
from
the University of S
outhern California in 1939 and 1941 and a
Ph. D
. in physical chemistry from
Harvard U
niversity in 1949. Dr.
Guinn studied radioisotopes at the O
ak Ridge Institute of N
uclear S
tudies, Oak R
idge, Tenn., in 1952. H
e is a fellow of the A
merican
Nuclear S
ociety, the Am
erican Academ
y of Forensic S
cientists, and he is a m
ember of the A
merican C
hemical S
ociety. D
r. Guinn has published num
erous scientific articles in the area of activation analysis and forensic chem
istry. He hat' served as an
adviser to such agencies as the Atom
ic Energy C
omm
ission and he has m
ade a training film on neutron activation analysis w
hich is in w
ide use today. It w
ould
be ap
pro
priate, M
r. Chairm
an, at th
is time to
call Dr.
Guinn. C
hairman ST
OK
ES. T
he comm
ittee calls Dr. G
uinn. S
ir, would
you p
lease stand an
d raise y
our rig
ht h
and an
d b
e sw
orn. D
o you solemnly sw
eari the testimony you w
ill give before this. co
mm
ittee is the tru
th, th
e whole tru
th an
d n
oth
ing b
ut th
e truth
, so help you G
od'? D
r. GIA
NN
. Yes. I do.
Chairm
an STO
KE
S. Thank you. Y
ou may be seated.
The C
hair recognizes comm
ittee counsel Jim W
olf. T
EST
IMO
NY
OF D
R. V
INC
EN
T P. G
UIN
N
Mr. W
OL
F. F
or the record, could you please state your full name?
Dr. G
UIN
N. V
incent P. G
uinn. M
r. Wocr. W
here are you currently employed?
Dr. G
UIN
N. A
s a professor of chemistry, U
niversity of California,
Irvine campus.
Mr. W
OL
F.
Are y
ou fam
iliar with
the tech
niq
ue o
f analy
sis of
evidence samples know
n as neutron activation analysis? D
r. QU
INN
. Yes; I have been involved in such w
ork for over 20 years.
Mr. W
OL
F. W
hen did you first personally perform this technique?
Dr. G
UIN
N. A
bout 1956. M
r. WO
LF
. Have you testified in legal proceedings before on the
applicab
ility o
f neu
tron activ
ation an
alysis to
evid
ence sam
ples?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, on many occasions.
Mr. W
ota. D
id y
ou testify
in th
e capacity
as an ex
pert w
itness?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es. M
r. W
OL
F. In
your cap
acity as an
expert w
itness d
id y
ou b
oth
testify as to sam
ples you had analyzed and performed the analysis
on as well as an evaluation of analyses that other people had done?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, both of them.
Mr. W
ord. Approxim
ately how m
any times have you testified in
your capacity as an expert witness?
Dr. G
UIN
N. I w
ould say approximately 50 tim
es. M
n W
OL
F. G
enerally, Dr. G
uinn, why w
ould one subject an evi-dence sam
ple to neutron activation analysis? D
r. GU
INN
. It dep
ends o
n th
e kin
d o
f evid
ence sam
ple, b
ut fo
r m
any k
inds th
e purp
ose is to
detect v
arious elem
ents in
the sam
- ples and com
pare specimens to see if they are sufficiently sim
ilar in
com
positio
n th
at it indicates a h
igh p
robab
ility o
f com
mon
origin or, if they differ widely, a definite probability of noncom
mon
origin. M
r. WO
LF
. So it may be possible, by neutron activation analysis,
to determine if tw
o or more unknow
n evidence specimens are from
the sam
e batch or item, is that correct?
Dr. Q
UIN
N. T
hat is correct. M
r. WO
LF
. To u
se an ex
ample, if a crim
e had
been
com
mitted
an
d th
e victim
hit o
ver th
e head
with
an ax
, and m
etal fragm
ents
were found in the skull of the victim
, might you be able to analyze
the m
etal fragm
ents fo
und in
the sk
ull to
see if they
match
ed th
e ty
pe o
f ax th
at was fo
und in
a particu
lar perso
n's h
ouse w
ho is
accused of that crime?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es; if one found the same elem
ents at approximate-
ly th
e same co
ncen
trations in
both
, you co
uld
establish
that th
ere w
as a good p
robab
ility th
at it came fro
m th
e same ty
pe o
f ax. It
wouldn t identify that particular ax because there m
ight have been a h
undred
or so
mad
e of th
e same b
atch o
f metal b
ut it w
ould
establish that particular brand and production lot perhaps.
Mr. W
OL
F. Is it easier F
or you to state your conclusion that two
objects are alik
e or is it easier to
establish
the co
nclu
sion th
e two
items are not alike?
4V2
Dr. G
UIN
N. It is m
uch easier to exclude; if you find two sam
ples that differ m
arkedly, it is easy to say definitively they did not have a co
mm
on o
rigin
. If they
look sim
ilar in co
mpositio
n, th
en y
our
first statemen
t is: "They
may
hav
e a com
mon o
rigin
," and y
ou
have to look more carefully and look at background data that you
have obtained on such materials to try to even estim
ate a probabil-ity that they really do have a com
mon origin.
Mr.
WO
LF
. B
riefly, D
r. Guin
n, I w
ould
like to
ask y
ou a few
general questions about procedures one w
ould employ to do a neu-
tron activation analysis. If, for example, you had a m
etal specimen
to test, what w
ould you do to that metal specim
en to prepare it for testing?
Dr. G
utstx. On m
any kinds of samples it is necessary to rem
ove, as best you can, any external contam
ination, dust, moisture, or salt
from handling and perspiration. Y
ou may have to w
ash them, then
dry
them
, and so
on, ju
st to g
et rid o
f extern
al, extran
eous co
n-
tamination that w
ould otherwise change the m
easured composition
from w
hat the real material w
as. That is quite com
mon.
Mr.
WO
LF
. After p
reparin
g th
e sample, y
ou w
ould
then
insert
that sample in a nuclear reactor, is that correct?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
ou normally place the individual sam
ples in small
plastic (polyethylene) vials as a container and, of course, you put that into the nuclear reactor.
Mr.
WO
LF
. And th
e sample w
ould
be m
ade rad
ioactiv
e after it w
as placed in the nuclear reactor, is that correct? D
r. G
UIN
N. Y
es; in th
e reactor th
e purp
ose is to
bom
bard
the
sample w
ith n
eutro
ns. T
he n
eutro
ns—
som
e of th
em g
et captu
red
by th
e nuclei o
f the d
ifferent k
inds o
f atom
s in th
e sample, an
d
that makes som
e of these radioactive. So w
hen the sample com
es out—
particularly metal sam
ples—there is no change in w
eight that you can m
easure, there is no change in appearance, but the sample
is now
radio
active an
d y
ou can
then
test it with
suitab
le countin
g
equipment.
Mr.
WO
LF
. N
ow
, radio
active m
aterials decay
, is that co
rrect? D
r. Guirese Y
es. Differen
t radio
isoto
pes h
ave d
ifferent rates o
f decay.
Mr. W
OL
F. C
an you explain in layman's term
s what "radioactive
decay" means?
Dr. G
m-sm
. "Rad
ioactiv
e decay
" mean
s that an
even
t occu
rs in
the n
ucleu
s of an
atom
resultin
g in
it releasing en
ergy an
d p
ene-
trating rad
iation an
d/o
r a particle su
ch as a b
eta pactbicle, w
hich is a h
igh-en
ergy electro
n. In
the p
rocess, it ch
anges n
orm
ally to
a stable isotope, of the next elem
ent in the case of beta-minus em
is-sion. T
he process of that decay is called "radioactivity" or "radioac-tive decay.
Som
e elemen
ts hav
e a num
ber o
f differen
t radio
isoto
pes th
at hav
e been
mad
e in th
e reactor w
ith n
eutro
ns. S
om
e of th
em w
ill only
form
one rad
ioiso
tope; so
me w
ill form
two o
r three. T
he
radioisotopes of different .elements are characterized by the ener-
gies of the radiations that', they emit in the process of decaying and
also b
y th
eir half-liv
es, vith
ich is a m
easure o
f how
- rapid
ly th
ey
decay away.
Mr. S
limy. Y
ou are tellin
g u
s differen
t elemen
ts hav
e differen
t radioactive half-lives and, by detecting the radioactive decay of the
493
unknown sam
ple, you would be able to identify the elem
ents pres-ent in that sam
ple, is that correct? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, particularly, in practice, by looking at the ener-
gies o
f the g
amm
a rays th
at are emitted
by th
e sample, rath
er th
an actu
ally m
easurin
g th
e halflife. W
e mak
e use o
f the h
alflife but w
e don't usually actually measure it.
Mr. W
OL
F. W
hat are some of the different types of m
aterials you have tested by neutron activation analysis for the purpose of com
-parison?
Dr. G
UIN
N. W
ell, almost all the kinds of m
aterials you can think of that m
ay get involved in some kind of crim
inal case—gunshot
residues, bullet lead, glass, paint, paper, cloth, oil, greases, and so on and on and on.
Mr. W
OL
F. H
ow m
any different types of bullets have you exam-
ined by neutron activation analysis? D
r. G
UIN
N. A
pproximately 165 different actual, know
n brands and know
n production lots of bullets. M
r. WO
LF
. Were these of different calibers as w
ell as manufac-
turers? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes; they covered the full range of calibers as w
ell. M
r. WO
LF
. What elem
ents have you found were the m
ost distinct to distinguish am
ong different brands of bullets? D
r. Gum
w. L
ooking over all of the data that we have obtained
and also other people have obtained who have been using the sam
e general approach, w
e find there are three elements that com
monly
show
up in
bullet lead
s but at w
idely
differen
t concen
trations,
dep
endin
g u
pon w
hich
bullet lead
it is. These th
ree elemen
ts ate antim
ony, silver, and copper. A
nd I would
say th
at that is ab
out th
e appro
xim
ate ord
er of
importance—
that is, antimony being perhaps the m
ost informative
or th
e most critical elem
ent to
measu
re; silver, v
ery clo
se to it;
copper, somew
hat less, though, mainly because copper w
ouldn't be so
bad
in an
d o
f itself but, in
crimin
al cases, you v
ery freq
uen
tly
are lookin
g at little b
its and p
ieces of b
ullets, an
d th
e orig
inal
bullets were copper-jacketed and that m
eans some of the fragm
ents you get m
ay have a little bit of copper imbedded in them
physically that you can't see and yet it w
ill show up m
arkedly in the analysis. S
o the copper numbers can often bounce around.
Mr.
WO
LF
. A
re oth
er elemen
ts found to
be p
resent in
bullets
when you analyze them
, apart from antim
ony, silver, and copper? D
r. G
UIN
N. W
ell, man
y tim
es in b
ullets, u
nder th
e conditio
ns
that w
e norm
ally u
se, you w
ill just see those th
ree. Very
often
, unless y
ou v
ery carefu
lly clean
them
, you w
ill find a little b
it of
sodium and a little bit of chlorine, com
ing from salt, w
hich may be
from
persp
iration if an
ybody h
as han
dled
the sp
ecimen
s, or salt
spray
in th
e air if it is anyw
here n
ear the o
cean, fo
r exam
ple.
Often you w
ill find a little trace of manganese, not so m
uch that it is com
mon but w
e happen to be extremely sensitive for m
anganese. T
he main reason for using the activation analysis m
ethod is that it is an extrem
ely sensitive method. it w
ill detect very small con-
centratio
ns, b
ut- it d
oesn
t hav
e the sam
e sensitiv
ity fo
r all ele-m
ents. Som
e are far more sensitive than others. S
o we som
etimes
see a little man
gan
ese : occasio
nally
a little alum
inum
, once in
a w
hile some arsenic or tin.
494
Th
at abo
ut co
vers all o
f the elem
ents th
at we h
ave ev
er seen in
all bullet leads.
Mr.
WO
LF
. Have you analyzed M
annlicher-Carcano bullets pro-
duced by the Western C
artridge Co. (W
CC
)? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, I have.
Mr. W
OL
F. W
hen did you do these analyses? D
r. GU
INN
. A num
ber of years ago. I believe I started doing the first an
alyses ab
ou
t 19
73
. A co
lleagu
e, no
t at Irvin
e bu
t at the
University of K
ansas, Dr. John N
ichols, had been interested in the P
residen
t Ken
ned
y case fo
r quite so
me tim
e and h
e contacted
me
and said he had been able to acquire boxes of Mannlicher-C
arcano am
munition from
the four production lots that had been produced by th
e WC
C, an
d h
e was w
onderin
g if I w
ould
be in
terested in
doin
g an
alyses o
n th
em sin
ce I had
earlier analy
zed a lo
t of o
ther
kinds of bullets. I said yes, and I did, and we found som
e unusual features about W
CC
Mannlicher-C
arcano amm
unition that showed
it was different from
most kinds of bullets.
Mr. W
ei's. Prio
r to g
etting
into
tho
se features, d
id y
ou
exam
ine
bu
llets from
every
lot p
rod
uced
by
the W
estern C
artridg
e Co
.? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes. T
he W
estern C
artridg
e Co
. repo
rtedly
mad
e 1
million rounds of each of 4 production runs, lots 6,000, 6,001, 6,002,
and 6,003. They w
ere made at different tim
es in 1954, and report-edly those are the only lots they ever produced, and w
e had boxes from
each of those lots. M
r. WO
LF
. Addressing your analyses, did you find W
CC
Mann-
licher-C
arcano
bu
llets differed
from
mo
st oth
er bu
llets yo
u h
ad
analyzed? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes; they did.
Mr. W
OL
F. H
ow did they differ?
Dr. G
UIN
N. W
ell, as of th
e time th
at I first measu
red th
em, th
ey
had a lower antim
ony content than I had encountered prior to that in
most o
ther b
ullets, b
ecause a v
ery larg
e percen
tage o
f bullets
you d
o lo
ok at, co
mm
ercial ones, are h
arden
ed lead
, where they
deliberatedly add anywhere from
half a percent up to perhaps 4 or 5
percen
t antim
on
y to
mak
e the lead
mu
ch h
arder. A
very
large
percen
tage o
f com
mercial b
ullets d
o h
ave h
arden
ed lead
. So
we
have usually found much higher antim
ony levels than in the WC
C
Mannlicher-C
arcano bullets. M
r. WO
LF
. And W
CC
Mannlicher-C
arcano bullets are considered unhardened bullets. Is that correct?
Dr. G
UIN
N. T
hey
are defin
itely u
nhard
ened
bultits. T
hat p
uts
them dow
n much low
er in antimony than m
ost bullets. S
ubseq
uen
tly w
e—in
lookin
g at a lo
t more b
rands in
the in
ter-im
—did find som
e others that were also low
, some of them
lower
yet in antimony, but that w
as one unusual feature. T
he o
ther u
nu
sual featu
re of th
e WC
C M
ann
licher-C
arcano
is that there seem
s to be no uniformity w
ithin a production lot. That
is, even
wh
en w
e wo
uld
take a b
ox
of cartrid
ges all fro
m a g
iven
pro
ductio
n lo
t, take 1
cartridge o
ut an
d th
en an
oth
er and th
en
anoth
er and th
en an
oth
er. all out o
f the sam
e box—
boxes o
f 20,_
th
ese were—
and an
alyie th
em, th
ey all in
gen
eral look d
ifferent
and widely different. particularly in their antim
ony content. T
his is n
ot tru
e of most bullet leads that w
e have ever looked at before, w
hich are very uniform. In general, if you take m
ost boxes
495
of amm
unition—and w
e published on this; it is in the literature—tak
e a bu
nch
of th
em o
ut, y
ou
can't tell o
ne fro
m th
e oth
er. Th
ey
all look like little carbon copies even to activation analysis, but not so w
ith the Mannlicher-C
arcano. M
r. WO
LF
. Did any of the 165 know
n brands and lots of bullets y
ou
hav
e prev
iou
sly ex
amin
ed h
ave co
nstitu
ent ran
ges th
at were
the same as the W
CC
Mannlicher-C
arcano bullets _a their antimo-
ny and silver characteristics? D
r. G
UIN
N.
Yes; th
e rang
e of th
e WC
C M
ann
lieher-C
arcano
s, esp
ecially in
the an
timony co
nten
t, is so w
ide th
s: it does encom-
pass some of the others w
hich are down at that low
end; and out of 165, there w
ere 4 different groups, .1 U.S
. made and 3 foreign m
ade, that fell som
ewhere in that range.
Mr. W
OL
F. A
ddressing the work you did for this com
mittee, D
r. G
uinn, where did you obtain the evidence sam
ples that you exam-
ined for this comm
ittee? D
r. GU
INN
. Well, it w
as durin
g last y
ear. First o
f all, we m
ade
the arran
gem
ents in
advan
ce, and th
en in
Sep
tember o
f last year
Mr. Jam
es L. G
ear of th
e Natio
nal A
rchiv
es bro
ug
ht th
e samp
les out. H
e flew out w
ith them and brought them
down w
ith a couple of F
ederal guards, down to the laboratory, m
y laboratory at Irvine. M
r. WO
LF
. All th
e samp
les yo
u ex
amin
ed fo
r this co
mm
ittee w
ere obtained from the N
ational Archives, is that correct?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es. M
r. WO
LF
. How
man
y item
s were b
rought to
you fro
m th
e Na-
tional Archives for you to first exam
ine? D
r. GU
INN
. There w
ere 10 different specimens that had C
E auin-
bers an
d/o
r FB
I Q n
um
bers attach
ed to
them
-10 d
ifferent o
nes.
Mr. W
OL
F. D
id y
ou
test all these 1
0 d
ifferent item
s by
neu
tron
activiation analysis?
Dr. G
UIN
N. N
o. T
he first th
ing w
e did
was fo
r me to
look o
ver
the samples to see if they w
ere suitable for analysis—if there w
as an
yth
ing left th
ere to an
alyze fo
r one th
ing, if an
analy
zable
sample could be obtained. T
hree of them w
ere not suitable. M
r. WO
LF
. Wh
ich th
ree items w
ere no
t suitab
le for an
alysis?
Dr. G
UIN
N. L
et me ju
st check
so I can
get th
e pro
per n
um
bers
for them. O
ne was the so-called D
allas curbing sample.
Mr. W
OL
F. Is that F
BI N
o. Q-609?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es; the FB
I number w
as Q-609. T
hat was a piece of
curb
ing th
at was cu
t away
in D
ealey P
laza becau
se it appeared
th
ere was a sm
ear that m
igh
t be fro
m a g
razing
bu
llet, and
that
was b
rou
gh
t ou
t to th
e labo
ratory
. Bu
t after loo
kin
g at it, it w
as q
uite ap
paren
t that th
ere wo
uld
be n
o w
ay—
it was ju
st hard
ly a
visible smudge. T
o get a sample rem
oved from it, you w
ould have to
scrape it an
d y
ou w
ould
end u
p w
ith a sample that w
as mostly
cement.
You m
ight b
e able to
detect a little an
timony o
r som
ethin
g lik
e th
at, bu
t yo
u co
uld
nev
er relate it to a p
articular k
ind
of b
ullet
lead. This had beettscraped before by F
BI to take th
eir samp
les for em
ission sp
ectograp
hy. an
d th
at is why p
ractically n
oth
ing w
as left.
Mr. W
OL
F. W
hat are the other samples that w
ere not suitable for analysis?
496
Dr. G
uth
rie. Anoth
er one w
as FB
I Q-3
, which
has a C
om
missio
n
num
ber, C
E-5
69. T
hat w
as reported
ly a frag
men
t recovered
from
th
e fron
t seat of th
e Dallas lim
ou
sine.
Mr. W
OL
F. W
hy w
as that n
ot su
itable fo
r analy
sis? D
r. GU
INN
. That
was a sizab
le fragm
ent, b
ut it w
as on
ly th
e jack
et material. T
he lead
that h
ad b
een in
side o
f it was all g
on
e an
d, sin
ce I was try
ing to
analy
ze bullet lead
, not jack
et material,
there w
as noth
ing left in
that o
ne to
analy
ze. M
r. WO
LF
. Th
e third
item th
at was u
nsu
itable fo
r analy
sis was
what?
Dr. G
om
a. FB
I Q-1
5, w
hich
' also h
as CE
No. 8
41. T
hat w
as rep
orted
ly so
me v
ery tin
y p
articles scraped
from
the in
side su
rface o
f the w
ind
shield
of th
e Dallas lim
ou
sine. A
pp
arently
in th
e prev
i-ous F
BI em
ission sp
ectrograp
hic ex
amin
ations th
at little bit o
f m
aterial had
been
com
pletely
used
up
. We o
pen
ed th
e con
tainer
but w
e could
find n
oth
ing in
there, n
otin
g in
there at all, ev
en w
ith
magnification. M
r. WO
LF
. Ad
dressin
g th
e items y
ou
did
analy
ze for th
e Co
mm
it-tee, co
uld
you d
escribe w
here th
e two item
s in w
hat y
ou h
ave
characterized
as gro
up
2 w
ere fou
nd
, Co
mm
ission
exh
ibit 5
73
and
C
omm
ission exhibit 141? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes; just for convenience of discussion I have grouped
the sev
en sp
ecimen
s that w
ere analy
zed—
that I d
id an
alyze—
into
these tw
o groups. Group 2 consisted of just tw
o specimens: F
BI Q
-8, w
hich
also h
as the C
om
missio
n N
o. C
E-1
41
. Th
at is wh
at has b
een
referred to
recently
here, to
o, as th
e com
plete, u
nfired
Western
C
artridge C
o. 6
lie-millim
eter cartridge rep
orted
ly fo
und in
the
cham
ber o
f the M
ann
licher-C
arcano
rifle fou
nd
in th
e Tex
as Sch
oo
l D
epository Building on N
ovember 22, 1963.
Mr. W
OL
F. A
nd Com
mission exhibit 573?
Dr. G
imes,. Y
es; Com
misio
n ex
hib
it 573 is th
e oth
er one, w
hich
has an
FB
I num
ber o
f Q-1
88 also
. It is a mash
ed b
ullet still in
tae jack
et, and
it is the en
e that w
as repo
rtedly
fired at G
en. E
dw
in
Walk
er in A
pril o
f 1963. I to
ok sam
ples o
f both
of th
ose, o
f the
bullet lead
, and an
alyzed
them
. M
r. W
OL
F.
Addressin
g th
e five ev
iden
ce fragm
ents w
hich
you
exam
ined
in w
hich
you called
gro
up 1
, all of w
hich
were alleg
edly
fo
un
d in
or n
ear the o
ccup
ants o
f the P
residen
t's limo
usin
e, cou
ld
yo
u g
ive th
eir Co
mm
ission
exh
ibit n
um
bers an
d state w
here th
ey
were found, please?
D
r. GU
INN
. Yes; th
e first one w
ould
be C
om
missio
n ex
hib
it 399.
That is th
e specim
en o
ften referred
to as th
e pristin
e bullet, rep
ort-
ed
ly fo
un
d o
n th
e stre
tch
er a
t Park
lan
d M
em
oria
l Ho
spita
l in
Dallas that afternoon of N
ovember 22, 1963,
[Interru
ptio
n fro
m th
e floo
r.] C
hairm
an
STO
KE
S. T
he g
entle
man in
the re
ar o
f the ro
om
is req
uested
to rem
ov
e him
self from
the ro
om
. C
ounsel, you may proceed.
Mr. W
OL
F. D
r. Gut*
. if we co
uld
again
start with
the item
s that
we h
ave p
laced in
gro
up 1
of th
e items, all fo
und in
or n
ear the
eccucan
ts of th
e Presid
ent's lim
ousin
e, and if y
ou co
uld
giv
e their
Co
rrun
ission
exh
ibit n
um
bers an
d th
e locatio
n w
here th
ey
were
allegedly found.
491
Dr. Q
UIN
N. T
he first of the five was C
E-399. T
hat is the so-called pristin
e bullet rep
orted
ly fo
und o
n a stretch
er at Park
land M
emo-
rial Hosp
ital in D
allas. The seco
nd w
as Com
missio
n ex
hib
it 567.
Th
at was a m
ashed
large b
ullet frag
men
t still in its jack
et repo
rt-ed
ly reco
vered
from
the fro
nt seat o
f the D
allas limousin
e. T
he th
ird o
ne, C
E-8
43
, con
sisted o
f on
e larger frag
men
t and
on
e sm
aller fragm
ent rep
orted
ly reco
vered
from
Presid
ent K
enn
edy
's b
rain at au
top
sy. T
he fo
urth
on
e was C
E-8
42
, on
e larger frag
men
t an
d tw
o sm
aller ones rep
orted
ly reco
vered
from
Govern
or C
onnal-
ly's w
rist durin
g su
rgery
. And th
e fun one w
as CE
-840, frag
men
ts rep
orted
ly reco
vered
from
the rear flo
or o
f the D
allas limo
usin
e. M
r. WO
LF
. Was th
ere any
lead o
n an
y o
f the ev
iden
ce samp
les in
the N
ational A
rchiv
es on th
e cloth
ing o
f Govern
or C
onnally
or
Presid
ent K
enn
edy
that y
ou
cou
ld su
bject to
neu
tron
activatio
n
analy
sis? D
r. GU
INN
. No
t so far as I am
- aware, an
d I d
id n
ot an
alyze an
y
materials fro
m clo
thin
g at all, ju
st these b
ullets o
r bu
llet frag-
men
ts. M
r. Worse. In
additio
n to
the ev
iden
ce samples, y
ou also
mad
e rad
ioactiv
e kn
ow
n stan
dard
s of th
ree elemen
ts, is that co
rrect? D
r. GuIN
N. Y
es, the n
orm
al pro
cedure is to
not o
nly
detect
elemen
ts in sam
ple; b
ut to
measu
re their co
ncen
tration
s qu
anita-
tively
. To
do
this, y
ou
need
to k
no
w, fo
r on
e thin
g, th
e weig
ht o
f th
e sample an
d, seco
nd, y
ou h
ave to
com
pare th
e radio
activities
that y
ou o
bserv
e in th
e activated
samples w
ith th
ose fro
m stan
dard
sam
ples o
f kn
ow
n w
eigh
ts of th
e elemen
ts that y
ou
are detectin
g.
Mr.
WO
LF
. A
nd th
e three stan
dard
s you u
sed w
ere onE
" .:, co
pp
er, antim
on
y, an
d silv
er, is that co
rrect? D
r. GU
INN
. Th
at is correct.
Mr. W
OL
F. M
r. Ch
airman
, I wo
uld
ask at th
is time to
sho
w th
e w
itness w
hat h
as been
mark
ed as "JF
K ex
hib
it No
. F-3
29
," wh
ich
is a grap
h o
f the d
ecay p
attern o
f an an
itimony stan
dard
. and th
e decay
pattern
of C
om
missio
n ex
hib
it 843, rep
orted
ly a frag
men
t reco
vered
from
Presid
ent K
enn
edy
's brain
du
ring
the au
top
sy.
after each h
ad b
een activ
ated in
the n
uclear reacto
r. D
r. Guin
n, d
id y
ou p
repare th
ese grap
hs?
Dr. G
unest. Yes; I did.
Mr.
WO
LF
. A
nd
add
ressing
yo
urself to
the lo
wer o
f the tw
o
grap
hs, w
hat d
oes th
at grap
h illu
strate? D
r. GU
INN
. Wh
at it sho
ws is th
e peak
in th
e gam
ma-ray
spec-
trum
, the m
easured
gam
ma-ray
spectru
m, fro
m rad
ioactiv
e antim
o-
ny, th
e radio
isoto
pe an
timony 1
22. It h
as one p
rincip
al gam
ma ray
w
ith a certain
energ
y, 5
64,0
00 electro
n v
olts; an
d th
at mean
s as we
measu
re it, it sho
uld
fall in a certain
po
sition
, ho
rizon
tally, o
n th
e sp
ectrum
. W
hat w
e se
e is ju
st an e
nla
rged sm
all p
ortio
n o
f the w
hole
sp
ectrum
. You m
ay n
ote w
e hav
e a chan
nel n
um
ber th
ere and th
is enlarged portion only ranges from
roughly channel Nos. G
OO
to 700. T
he en
tire spectru
m g
oes all th
e way
from
chan
nel 1
to ch
annel
4,0
96. Y
ou can
see this is ju
st a small p
art, but an
y sam
ple L
iles has b
een activ
ated an
d co
unted
under th
ese conditio
ns an
timony in
m
easurab
le qu
antity
sho
uld
sho
w a p
eak at ex
actly th
at locat:o
n.
213 mg A
NT
IMO
NY
A
NT
IMO
NY
ST
D. S
b - 1 1, =
60 min . td =
55 min
tc=
5 min. L
IVE
TIM
E
TA
GW
OR
D 0050
Om
= 1.0 x 1017 N
/CM
2- SE
C
SE
PT
. 14. 1977
564 keV
122 Sb
12,000
10,000 z
.' 8000
z
0
2000
70,000
60.000
t.0 Z
50,000
40.000
a. 30.000
,n 20,000
10.000
41.9 MIL
LIG
RA
MS
SA
MP
LE
HC
- 4 - 1 564 keV
t = 6
0 m
in.. td = 102
122 Sb
= 5 m
in. LIV
ET
IME
T
AG
WO
RD
0056 O
m=
1.0 x 10' 7 N/C
M2- S
EC
S
EP
T. 14, 1977
670 680
690 C
HA
NN
EL
NU
MB
ER
6000
4000
V.P
. Guinn
700 710
V.P
.Guin
n
496
Mr. W
OL
F. A
nd th
e low
er grap
h, D
r. Guinn, is th
e grap
h o
f the
know
n stan
dard
of an
timony th
at was m
ade rad
ioactiv
e, is that
correct? D
r. GU
INN
. That is correct.
Mr. W
OL
F. A
nd w
hat d
oes th
e upper g
raph illu
strate, which
is th
e decay
pattern
of a frag
men
t reported
ly reco
vered
from
Presi-
den
t Ken
ned
y's b
rain d
urin
g th
e auto
psy
? D
r. GU
INN
. That sh
ow
s the larg
er brain
sample, w
hich
weig
hed
, as it sh
ow
s there-4
1.9
millig
rams is th
e sample w
eight. It w
as irrad
iated in
the reacto
r at the sam
e time th
e standard
was, fo
r th
e same len
gth
of tim
e; and th
en after so
me tim
e of d
ecay after-
ward
, it was th
en co
unted
under th
e same co
nditio
ns, an
d y
ou d
o
see you g
et a peak
at the sam
e locatio
n—
the size o
f the p
eak is
differen
t becau
se the sam
ple an
d stan
dard
don't h
ave th
e same
amount o
f antim
ony, b
ut th
e locatio
n o
f the p
eak is th
e same. T
hat
tells us th
at that sam
ple co
ntain
s antim
ony.
Of co
urse, in
that sp
ectrum
, if you w
ere to lo
ok at th
e entire
spectru
m, y
ou w
ould
see oth
er peak
s due to
copper an
d so
on as
well. B
ut w
e are just lo
okin
g at th
e antim
ony p
art of th
e spectru
m
here. M
r. Wats. W
hat is th
e significan
ce of th
e fact that th
e peak
of
the g
raph ab
ove is d
irectly ab
ove th
e peak
of th
e grap
h b
elow
? D
r. GU
INN
. Well, fallin
g in
the sam
e chan
nel n
um
ber m
eans th
e gam
ma ray
s you are m
easurin
g h
ave th
e same en
ergy, w
ithin
plu
s or m
inus ab
out 1
,000 electro
n v
olts, an
d th
at is what h
elps y
ou
iden
tify it.
Mr. W
OL
F. M
r. Chairm
an, I w
ould
like JF
K ex
hib
it No. F
-328
adm
itted in
to ev
iden
ce at this p
oin
t. C
hairm
an S
TO
KE
S. W
ithout o
bjectio
n, it m
ay b
e entered
into
the
record
at this p
oin
t. [JF
K ex
hib
it No. F
-328 w
as entered
into
the reco
rd.]
670 680
690 C
HA
NN
EL
NU
MB
ER
JFK
Eximirr
F-32S
700 710
14
00
65
8 ke
V
11
0 A
g
600
41.9
MIL
LIG
RA
MS
S
AM
PL
E H
C -4
. 1
ti = td =
= 4
0 S
EC
ON
DS
A
VG
. % D
EA
DT
IME
= 2
.5%
T
AG
WO
RD
00
07
O
TH
2.5
x 1
012 N
/CM
2 . SE
C
SE
PT
. 13, 1
977
646 keV
124m
1 S
h
_1 600
4C • 4
00
E 300
Z
- 200
0
• 100
658 ke
V
11
0 A
g
V.P
. Guin
n
790
803
810
CH
AN
NE
L N
UM
BE
R
325 m
g S
ILV
ER
1200 S
ILV
ER
ST
D. A
O
I.= t d
= l e
= 4
0 S
EC
ON
DS
A
VG
. °/0 D
EA
DT
IME
=8.5
%
TA
GW
OR
D 0
00
1
OTH
= 2
.5 x 1
0tz
N/C
M2- S
EC
SE
PT
. 13, 1
977
V.P
. Guin
n
200
790
800
810
CH
AN
NE
L N
UM
BE
R
JF
K E
x14181T
F-3
29
501
2 ▪ 1000
z
• 800
rz
1—
D 0
600
400
500
Mr.
WO
LF
. M
r. Chairm
an, I w
ould
like to
hav
e show
n to
the
witn
ess what h
as been
mark
ed
for identification as JFK
exhib
it 329, w
hich is a photograph depicting the decay pattern of a silver stan
dard
and a p
hoto
grap
h d
epictin
g th
e decay
pattern
of a frag
-m
ent removed from
President K
ennedy's brain during the autopsy, after each had been activated in the nuclear reactor.
Dr. G
uin
n, th
e photo
grap
h at th
e botto
m in
dicates th
e decay
pattern of the know
n sample of silver, is that correct?
Dr. G
uiNN
. That is correct.
Mr. W
OL
F. A
nd what does the top graph depict?
Dr.
GU
INN
. It is the sam
e sample th
at you saw
on th
e prev
ious
photograph, the 41.9 milligram
sample of m
aterial removed from
P
residen
t Ken
ned
y's b
rain, b
ut activ
ated th
is time u
nder v
ery
differen
t conditio
ns, v
ery rap
idly
, becau
se we w
ere lookin
g fo
r a very
short liv
ed iso
tope h
ere, nam
ely, th
e radio
active silv
er 110,
which has a half life of only 24.4 seconds. T
hat means it is rapidly
disappearing by decay, dropping in half roughly every 24 seconds. S
o you must look at it very quickly to see it at all.
Mr.
WO
LF
. How
does th
e antim
ony o
n th
e photo
peak
on th
e rig
ht, JF
K ex
hib
it F-3
29, d
iffer from
the an
timony o
n th
e photo
-peak on the upper left?
Dr. G
UIN
N. I p
icked
this o
ne p
articularly
to illu
strate this p
oin
t, th
at even
with
the h
igh reso
lutio
n g
erman
ium
detecto
r you w
ill notice th
at close to
the silv
er peak
of th
e sample, b
ut n
ot o
f the
silver stan
dard
, there is a little p
eak o
ver to
the left, an
d th
at is also
from
radio
active an
timony, b
ut it is fro
m a d
ifferent iso
tope
with
a differen
t half life. T
hat is an
timony —
124 m
,, which
has a
gamm
a-ray energy of 646,000 electronvolts, which brings it close to
the 658,000 electron-volt peak of silver —110. R
ather than use this sm
aller antim
on
y —
12
4 m
, peak
, from
the sh
ort irrad
iation
, to
measu
re the an
timony co
nten
ts quan
titatively
, I used
the m
uch
larg
er peak
of an
timony —
122, fro
m th
e longer irrad
iation, to
obtain
a more p
recise _m
easurem
ent. W
ith silv
er there is really
only one choice, the short-lived silver —
110. M
r. W
OL
F. I w
ould
move th
at JFK
exhib
it F-3
29 b
e adm
itted
into evidence. C
hairman S
TO
KE
S. W
ithout objection, it may be entered into the
record. [T
he above referred to JFK
exhibit F-329 follow
s:] M
r. Wou.. D
r. Guin
n, I w
ould
now
like to
turn
to so
me o
f the
results of the analyses you performed for the com
mittee and som
e of the conclusions you m
ay have obtained. T
urning to the items in w
hat you characterized as group 2, first, this consisted of the alleged bullet fired at G
eneral Walker and the
unfired WC
C M
annlicher-Carcano cartridge. W
as the unfired WC
C
Mannlicher-C
arcano cartridge similar to the previous W
CC
Mann-
licher-Carcano cartridges you had tested?
Dr. G
UIN
N. F
irst of all, I am looking for the table here.
Would you repeat the question, please?
Mr.
WO
LF
. Was the unfired W
CC
Mannlicher-C
arcano cartridge th
at you tested
similar to
the p
revio
us o
nes y
ou h
ad tested
inde-
pendent of the work you did for this com
mittee?
502
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, sir; the k
ey 'elemen
ts, the an
timon
y and
the
silver, w
ere in th
e sam
e ran
ge a
s the o
ther W
CC
Man
nlich
er-C
arcano sam
ples. T
he an
timon
y was d
efinitely d
own
at the low
er en
d an
d th
e silver was u
p at th
e up
per en
d, b
ut it w
as in th
e same
general ran
ge. M
r. WO
LF
. An
d w
hat w
as the com
position
you fou
nd
in you
r an
alysis of the W
alker b
ullet fragm
ent?
Dr. G
UIN
N. A
bout 1.7 parts p
er million
antim
ony. E
ach valu
e has
a little un
certainty to it, b
ut ju
st stating th
e nu
mb
ers, 17 parts p
er m
illion an
timon
y, and
20.6 parts p
er million
silver, in th
e Walk
er b
ullet. M
r. WO
LF
. Was th
is similar to th
e comp
osition of th
e un
fired
WC
C M
annlicher-Carcano cartridge?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, sir; the u
nfired
WC
C M
ann
licher-C
arcano car-
tridge w
hich
we took
apart, took
a little samp
le out of th
e lead;
and
pu
t back
together again
, instead
of 17 parts p
er million
anti-
mon
y it was 15, in
stead of 20.6 p
arts per m
illion silver, it w
as 22.4. T
hese are w
ell with
in th
e ranges of sligh
t variation th
at you get
from w
ithin
such
materials.
Mr. W
OL
F. In
your p
rofessional op
inion
, Dr. G
uin
n, is th
e frag-m
ent rem
oved from
Gen
eral Walk
er's hou
se a fragmen
t from a
WC
C M
annlicher-Carcano bullet?
Dr. G
UIN
N. I w
ou
ld sa
y th
at it is ex
tremely
likely
that it is,
beca
use th
ere are v
ery few
, very
few o
ther a
mm
un
ition
s that
wou
ld b
e in th
is range. I d
on't k
now
of any th
at are specifically
this close
as these n
um
bers in
dicate, b
ut som
ewh
ere near th
em
there are a few
others, b
ut essen
tially this is in
the ran
ge that is
rather ch
aracteristic of WC
C M
ann
licher-C
arcano b
ullet lead
. M
r. WO
LF
. Tu
rnin
g to
wh
at h
as a
lread
y b
een p
laced
on
the
exhib
it board
and
labeled
at table 1 an
d m
arked
for iden
tification
as JFK
exhib
it F-330, D
r. Gu
inn
, was th
is chart p
repared
by you
? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, it w
as. M
r. WO
LF
. Does th
is chart rep
resent th
e results you
obtain
ed
du
ring you
r tests of the evid
ence sp
ecimen
s? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, for th
ese five eviden
ce specim
ens, th
is chart lists
all of the in
formation
obtain
ed, even
for a few traces of elem
ents
for wh
ich w
e find
no real sign
ificance. B
ut, for th
e sake of com
-p
leteness th
ey are all listed. T
here are som
e eight elem
ents listed
for each
samp
le. M
r. WO
LF
. I move th
at JFK
exhib
it No. F
-330' be-ad
mitted
into
eviden
ce. C
hairman ST
OK
ES. W
ithout objection, it may be received.
[Th
e above referred
JFK
exhib
it No. F
-330 follows:]
503
Tab
le I R
ES
ULTS
FRO
M S
EP
TEM
BE
R 1977 IN
AA
O
F E
VID
EN
CE
SP
EC
IME
NS
AT
U.C
. IRV
INE
S
amp
le Nu
mb
er
PP
. PIPP1
po
. P
P.
PP
. P
an, ppm
C
E-
F131 0- 1.1
C-
% L
eal A
jam
ny
624....14.
c_opper A
lumm
um4 M
an
pee
0_!L__,rn.
h
e In
ane.,
798. 1
1
101.4
b
83
3. 9
39
- 14
58 3
N
O4
0.09 0.02 5
.1 19
-12 587
2
2
953
902 4
I I 0
.6
45 1
1.1 .0 4 901 0
.01
9.1
22 5
843
4,5
4.1
553
621
-4 7.9
-0.3
40
2 5,5
-07
0.1
0001
134 3
59 1
0
842 9
9.1
104
.2
797 7
9
.8 0
.5
994 7
8.1 14
0.07-9
02
1204
257-14 840
14 1
4 1
94
-2
638 4
8.6
- 0 3
44
2
2.7.0 6
098 0
01
13. 1
38 7
14-2
163
-2 647 4
730.5
42 2
2.4
0.5
0.0
5 0
01
19 1
40 8
The ebtolutt ve1hel. Oahe. for 41
• .1 C I e.,
nu
n to
1,14. 41elin,•
• r nth n.hl. but Iihle valve...nest ■ner.ei N
ehevery 111.142.4 .131 M
ee
Tn. L wen. 041.11o. P
b, 35, Cu
owl C
l ewer...eh ae•
.me. ,71 ,•■•
ereentinerrehhl•el• Thov.1.1 ,f .A
.Th • •-.• h ■•■••■•■• 1,..hhergir eh.r,
and Mee:ow
ns eL
evenh
en F
ee a• eh.,
ge 3.1 O
bh
heo
ll In relax,.
"Mai
As1/013 TO. ...no, pl. Tn..
- lc,. A
, en. A
• w
oe Frueeterod
,n •
fahre ePhr.vn 17
evne. /*am 1
.
el:101111M SIA14741111. h11/1h M
eal:Iowa. ' rN Iw
o eehere WTI 17.0 1chehe11 rn 104 larger erv.110e1
4 NO
mains norm
detected
JF
K E
am
on - F
-330
Mr. W
OL
F. D
r. Gu
inn
, add
ressing you
r attention
to the colu
mn
lab
eled "
percen
tage lead,"
wh
at does th
is ind
icate? D
r. GU
INN
. Lead
is one of th
e elemen
ts that w
e can d
etect with
activation
analysis, b
ut n
ot with
great sensitivity. H
owever, if you
h
ave dealin
gs with
samp
les that are m
ostly lead, you
don
't m
esa great sen
sitivity to at least detect it, et cetera, b
ut even
here th
e p
recision
of m
easu
remen
t is not g
reat, a
nd
if you
look
at th
e n
um
bers you
will see p
ercent of lead
is show
n as p
lus or m
inu
s 2, p
lus or m
inu
s 3, or even p
lus or m
inu
s 4 percen
t. You
will n
ote th
at they all com
e out ab
out in
the ran
ge of 100. A
ll this really sh
ows is th
at these m
etal fragmen
ts that w
e were
look
ing a
t ind
eed w
ere lead
fragm
ents, th
ey w
eren't steel
frag-m
ents, for exam
ple, or som
ethin
g else; they w
ere lead.
Mr. W
ou. W
hat d
oes the P
PM
prior to th
e listing for each
of the
other elem
ents in
dicate?
Dr. G
UIN
N. P
PM
is just th
e abb
reviation for p
arts per m
illion b
y w
eight. O
ne p
art per m
illion is on
ly one ten
-thou
sand
th of a p
er-cen
t. M
r. WO
LF
. Dr. G
uin
n, b
ased on
these resu
lts, do you
have an
op
inio
n a
s to w
hat ty
pe o
f bu
llets these fra
gm
ents w
ere from
?
Dr. G
UIN
N. O
nce again
, every one of th
ese samp
les is in th
e same
range, w
hich
is an u
nu
sual ran
ge, as the b
ackgrou
nd
WC
C M
ann
-lich
er-Carcan
o samp
les that w
e have look
ed at from
all four p
ro-d
uction
lots. Th
ese five fall right in
the m
idran
ge, in fact. T
hey are
not th
e high
est; they are n
ot the low
est of the an
timon
y range, an
d
the sam
e is true of th
e silver. M
r. Wats._ Is it you
r opin
ion th
en th
at these all are fragm
ents
from W
CC
Mannlicher-C
arcano bullets? • D
r. GU
INN
. I thin
k th
at is their m
ost lik
ely o
rigin
, yes.
Mr.
WO
LF
. L
ook
ing a
t these resu
lts, can
you
determ
ine h
ow
m
any b
ullets th
ese eviden
ce specim
ens cam
e from?
504
Dr. G
uINN
. Yes, that is the really interesting part of this. I don't
sup
po
se peo
ple in
back
can see, o
r yo
u u
p th
ere can see, th
e num
bers on the chart very well, but you have the report to look at.
If you look at these five that are listed up here, and you first of all lo
ok
at the p
rime o
r key
elemen
t, wh
ich is an
timo
ny
, yo
u fin
d o
f th
e five sam
ples, th
at there are tw
o o
f them
that are u
p so
me-
where around 800 parts per m
illion, and you find three others that are dow
n just a shade over 600 parts per million.
Now
, after each n
um
ber th
ere is show
n a p
lus o
r min
us. T
his is
only the uncertainty of that particular measurem
ent from w
hat we
call the counting statistics. That uncertainty w
e can measure.
Mr. W
OL
F. D
r. Guinn. B
efore we go into a m
ore technical expla-natio
n, can
you ju
st from
lookin
g at th
e results, state w
hat is th
e num
ber of bullets that these evidence specimens cam
e from?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, sir, I can. M
r. W
OL
F.
What is th
e num
ber o
f bullets, in
your o
pin
ion?
Dr. G
uiNN
. These num
bers correspond to two bullets. T
wo of the
samples have indistinguishable com
positions, indicating that they cam
e from
the sam
e bu
llet, and
the o
ther th
ree particles are ev
i-dently sam
ples from another bullet.
Mr.
WO
LF
. So
it is y
our o
pin
ion
that th
e evid
ence sp
ecimen
s represent only evidence of tw
o bullets, is that correct? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, sir, th
ere is no ev
iden
ce for th
ree bullets, fo
ur
bullets, or anything more than tw
o, but there is clear evidence that there are tw
o. M
r. WO
LF
. And w
hich specimens that correspond, respectively, of
the two bullets?
Dr. G
uINN
. Using the C
E num
bers, the 399 specimen, w
hich is th
e so-called
stretcher o
r pristin
e bullet—
it has v
arious n
ames—
agrees in
com
po
sition
bo
th in
its antim
on
y an
d its silv
er with
C
E-842, w
hich are the fragments reportedly recovered from
Gover-
nor Cannally's w
rist. M
r. WO
LF
. Is it your' testimony that C
E-399 and C
E-842, the so-
called p
ristine b
ullet, an
d th
e fragm
ents rem
oved
from
Govern
or
Co
nn
ally's w
rist du
ring
surg
ery, b
oth
came fro
m th
e same b
ullet?
Dr. G
uINN
. Yes. O
ne, of course, is almost a com
plete bullet so it m
eans th
at the 8
42
fragm
ents cam
e from
, in th
is case, the b
ase of
the bullet. M
r. WO
LF
. Dr. G
uin
n, am
I correct th
at technically
you can
not
today
testify to
the co
mplete v
alidity
of th
e so-caned single bullet th
eory
becau
se there w
as no lead
left in th
e back
wound o
f the
President or around the P
resident's throat that would allow
you to ex
amin
e it and, th
erefore p
ossib
ly d
etermin
e that C
E-3
99 p
assed
through the President?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, reportedly there were no lead fragm
ents found in
the b
ack-to
-thro
at wound o
f the P
residen
t, and h
ence n
o sp
eci-m
ens to
be an
alyzed
,' so
I k
no
w n
oth
ing
abo
ut th
at particu
lar w
ound. M
r. WO
LF
. You can, how
ever, today state for the first time scien-
tifically that CE
-399 did cause the injuries to Governor C
onnally's w
rist? D
r. Gurzfrt. Y
es sir. those two m
atch so closely that I would say
that such was the case.
505
Mr. W
OL
F. W
hat is th
e deg
ree of co
nfid
ence an
d certain
ty w
ith
which you can state this conclusion? D
r. GU
INN
. I wish that I could put a num
ber on it, as we often
can do, that is, calculate a probability, but we really don't have the
back
gro
un
d in
form
ation
to m
ake a n
um
erical calculatio
n in
this
case. One can only show
what inform
ation we do have, and that is
that you simply do not find a w
ide variation in composition w
ithin individual W
CC
Mannlicher-C
arcano bullets, but you do find wide
composition differences from
bullet to bullet for this kind of bullet lead. T
hus, when you find .tw
o specimens that agree this closely,
you can
say it lo
oks in
deed
like th
ey are p
ieces from
the sam
e bullet.
Mr. W
OL
F. W
ou
ld y
ou
state that y
ou
r con
clusio
n is m
ore p
rob
-able than not, highly probable, or w
hat is the degree of certainty of your conclusion?
Dr. G
UIN
N. I w
ould say highly probable, yes. I would not w
ant to say
how
hig
h, w
heth
er it was 9
9 p
ercent o
r 90 p
ercent o
r 99.9
percent. I can't m
ake a calculation like that. M
r. WO
LF
. You w
ould state it is highly probable that the injuries to
Govern
or C
onnally
's wrist cam
e from
the so
-called p
ristine
bullet? D
r. GutN
N. T
hat is correct. M
r. WO
LF
. Were y
ou p
resent y
esterday
durin
g th
e testimony o
f D
r. Wecht?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, sir; I was.
Mr. W
OL
F. D
id you hear Dr. W
echt testify, in response to ques-tions from
counsel, that in his opinion it was im
possible for CE
-7:. to have caused the injury to G
overnor Connally's w
rist, even• if it h
it no
thin
g else, b
ecause C
E-3
99
wo
uld
hav
e had
to sh
ow
mo
re deform
ity? D
r. GuiN
N. Y
es: I heard him m
ake that statement.
Mr. W
OL
F. D
r. Guinn. on the basis of your scientific analysis, do
you believe Dr. W
echt to have been correct? D
r. GU
INN
. W
ell, I th
ink th
at is his o
pin
ion, b
ut lik
e man
y
op
inio
ns an
d m
any
theo
ries, som
etimes th
ey d
on
't agree w
ith th
e facts.
Mr. W
ats. Dr. G
uin
n, h
ave y
ou
prep
ared a rep
ort fo
r the co
m-
mittee w
hich
com
pletely
describ
es your w
ork
for th
e com
mittee
and your conclusions? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, sir.
Mr. W
OL
F. D
o you have that report with you?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, sir. It is right here. M
r. W
OL
F.
Mr. C
hairm
an, I m
ov
e that D
r. Gu
inn
's repo
rt be
mark
ed as JF
K ex
hib
it No. F
-331 an
d in
troduced
into
evid
ence.
Chairm
an Srroias. W
ithout objection it may b
e introd
uced
at this
point. [T
he above referred to JFK
exhibit F-331 follow
s:]
506
JFK
Extuerr F-331
A R
EP
OR
T T
O :H
Z R
OU
SE
OF
RE
PR
ES
En:A
TIV
ES
SEL
EC
T C
OM
MI7T
EE
ON
ASSA
SSINA
T:';N
S
on the subject of
1977 NE
UT
RO
N A
CT
: -:,1710N A
NA
LY
SIS
'-i-EASU
REZIEN
TS
ON BULLET-LEAD SPECIME:i3 7NvOLVED IN TRE 19,S
3 ASSASSINATION
OF PRES:LENT JOHN F. KENNEZ7
by
Dr. Vincent P. Guinn (Ph.D.)
Prcfessor of Chemistry
University of California
Irvine, California
, 147
Se7ber, 1973
se.
5UT
I. INTRODUCTION
This report is a presentation of the results obtained
and their interpretation, in a September 12-14, 1977 instru-
mental neutron activation analysis (INAA) study of bullet-
lead specimens involved in the November 22, 1961 assassina-
tion of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, and of a
specimen
from a bullet allegedly fired at General Edwin Walker
in April
of 1963. The author has been engaged in neutron activation
analysis !NAA) research and applications for the past 20
years -- first, as Read of the Radiochemistry Section of the
-
Shell Development Conpany, next (1962-1979) as Technical Direc-
tor of the Activation Analysis Program at General Atomic, and
(since early 1979) as Professor of Chemistry at the Univer-
sity of California at Irvine (UCT). The author's first
studies of the applicatiOn of the highly sensitive NAA method
to problems in the field of scientific crime-investigation
commenced in early 1352, have continued steadily sin
ce that
time, and his forensic activation analysis publications consti-
tute 93 of his 181 publications, to date, In the field of
radiochemistry/activation analysis. During the period. 1362-
197i, his forensic NA research was supoerted first by the
U. S. Atom'-:
.Energ
y Commission and later jointly by the AEC
and the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LE2A1 of the
U. 3. Cepartmeht of Zustita. From this research cane the 7:AA
method for detection of gunshot resid...es that is now used
by the F31 and many other law enforcement agencies around the
508
world, and extensive reports on the use of INAA for the trace-'
element characterization (as to probability of common origin)
of such evidence-type materials as bullet lead, paint, paper,.
and oil.
NAA is a nuclear method of elemental analysis. It is
a nuclear method of analyzing samples of all kinds of materials
to determine the elements present in them.
The sa
mp
les to
be
analy
zed are placed in small plastic vials, lowered into or
near ti:te cars of a research-type nuclear reactor, and. then
bombarded with a very large number of slow neutrons (typically,
about 10 trillion per second) for a selected period of time.
When the samples are removed from the reactor, they are essen-
tially unchanged in composition (and in most cases, in appear-
anrel, but they are now radioactive, since capture of a
neutron by many of th
e a
tom
ic n
ucle
i of
many of th
e ele
men
ts
prusent in the samples has formed radioactive (unstable) nuclei
of _mesa elements. :Cith or without (as needed) some chemical
prores5og of the activeted samples before counting, the
serp_ies are then counted on a gamma-ray spect;ommter -- a
-
sopnisticated detector and electronic apparatus that measures
the energies and numbers of the gamma rays emitted by each
railoactive sample. The gamma-ray energies, observed as peaks
in earn epectrtim, ilentify the various elements that have been
made ierectably
-ra
dio
activ
e, and the ressured sizes of the peaks
the =Run=s of the elements present.
509
The principal advantages of the reactor neutron
activation analysis method are (1) it can detect and accurate-
ly measure even very tiny amounts (typically, one billionth
of a gram) and very low concentrations (e.g., one part per
billion( of many elements in a sample, (2) it can utilize
sample sizes ranging all the way from a tiny speck . u
p to
several grams, (3) it can simultaneously detect a number of
elements in a sample, and (4) it can in many instances be
carried out nondestructively. The main induced radioactivities
are those that have rather short half lives (l.e., they decay
away in a matter of seconds, minutes, or hours), and hence
the analyzed samples soon become negligibly radioactive and
hence can be handled with complete safety.
in previous extensive INAA studies of bullet-lead
specimens (of many different calibers, manufacturers, and pro-
duction lots), it was found that three key elements were al-
most always detectably present, but at widely different con-
centretions, depending coon the source of the bullet lead:
antimony (Sb), silver (Ag), and copper I Cu). Antimony con-
centrations in the range of about 1 to 10 parts per million
by weight (Ipom = 0.0001%) are usually found in unhardened
bullet lead, made with virgin lead, whereas levels in the
range of about 0.4% to 4i Sb are found in commercial bullet
leads that have been hardened by alloying Sb with the lead.
Intermediate Sb levels (i.e., between about 10 ppm and perhaps
51
0
/500 ppm) are encountered in unhardened bullet lead Ln which
some recycled lead is used, along with virgin teed, but in
which no
Sb has b
een d
elib
era
tely
added for hardening. Silver
concentrations are usually found to lie in the range from
shout 0.5 ppm to 100 ppm, and the Ag appears to come in mainly
as a natural impurity in the lead supply. Copper concentra-
tions are usually found to 142 in the range of about S ppm
to 400 ppm, and the Cu also appears to come in vainly as a
natural impurity in the lead supply. Of these three key
elements, Cu is the one of least usefulness for comparisons,
due to a-eat:ant occlusion of tiny bits of copper in the bullet
lea
d co
min
g fro
m th
e copper jacket of jacketed bullets in
the
sampling, and from the brass cartridge or brass primer cap in
the firing of the cartridge-- producing occasional spuriously
hiph Cu values.
Occasionally, the :NAA at bullet-lead specimens also
shows the presence of traces of certain other elements, such as
aluminum, arsenic, manganese, tin, sodium, and chlorine.
Thete elements, where detected. have generally not proved to
he tonsistent enough to be useful for the characterization of
bullet lead as to its origin. Sodium and cnlorine, the con-
stituents of common salt, appear to occur primarily as the
result of external contamination.
In earlier INAA studies of bullet leads from many
different manufacturers (See, references 4 and 5 in Appendix
20, it was found that bullets from a given manufacturer and
51
1
production lot were generally quite uniform in their Sb and
Ag concentrations, both within a given bullet and amongst
bullets from the same box or p
roductio
n lot. Thus, for such
typical ammunition it is generally not possible to distin-
guish amongst bullets, or bullet fragments, from the same
box of cartridges.
However, when the author analyzed (See, Appendix C)
quite a number of Western Cartridge Company Mannlicher-
Carcano 6.5 ra
m b
ulle
ts, from
their production lots 6000, 6001,
6002, and 6001 Ith
e only four lots they produced of this
type), this ammunition was found
to differ sharply from
typical bullet leads- Although in
div
idual b
ulle
ts w
ere
found
to be fairly homogeneous in their Sb and Ag concentrations,
they d
iffere
d greatly from bullet to bullet amongst samples
taken from the same box. For example, the Ag levels in
bullets from lot 6003 ranged from 7.5 ppm to 15.9 ppm, the Sb
levels from 80 to 730 Pam (and the Cu levels from 17 to 62
ppm
). This
gre
at variation from bullet to bullet from the
same box thus indicated that for this unusual kind of am-
munition, it would be possible to distinguish one bullet (or
bialet fragment) from another, even though they both came
from the same box of Mannlicher-Caroano cartridges.
512 513
PREPARATION OF THE SAMPLES FOR ANALYSIS
The analyses that are the subject of this report
were conducted at the University of California at Irvine
(UCI) during the period of September 12-14, 077. In these
measurements, eight elements were determined quantitatively,
by the method of instrumental neutron activation analysis
(INAA), using the thermal-neutron flux of the UCI research-
type nuclear reactor for the activation of the samples, and
the 38 cm3 G
e(Li)/4096-channel gamma-ray spectrometer at UCI
for the counting of the activated samples. The eight ele-
ments measured in the samples were the following:
lead
aluminum
'silver
manganese
antimony
sodium
copper
chlorine
The evidence specimens to be tested were removed
from the U. S. National Archives, in Washington, D. C. by
Mr. James L. Gear of the Archives staff.-
1/ The evidence
1. The specimens were brought to California in secure con-
tainers by commercial airline. Except during the day-
time periods of September 12, 13, and 14, 1977, when they
were in the process of being sampled and analyzed, they
were kept locked up at the Laguna Niguel, California,
branch of the National Archives.
During all of the opera-
tions on the evidence specimens carried out at UCI during
the September 12-14, 1977 period, the specimens were ac-
companied by Mr. James Gear, of the National Archives,
and by two Federal guards from Los Angeles. At the end
of the day on September 14, 1977 all of the activated
samples were returned to Mr. Gear.
specimens which are the subject of this report may he put in
two groups. The first group are those reportedly found
located in or near the occupants of the President's limousine,
the limousine, or the area immediately surrounding it. The
second group consists of a sample taken from the unfired cart-
ridge reportedly found in the Texas School Book Depository
Building on November 22. 1963, and a sample taken from the
mashed bullet reportedly found in the home of General Edwin
Walker, after he was reportedly fired upon in April of 1963.
The evidence specimens consisted of the following, l/
Groom i;
(1)
FBI no. Q609. Reportedly piece of curb from
Dealey Plaza.
(2) FBI no. 03 (CE-569). Reportedly a fragment re-
covered from the front seat of the Dallas limousine.
(3) FBI no. 015 tcE-541). Reportedly particles
scraped from the inside surface of the wind-
shield of the Dallas limousine.
(4) FBI no. Ql ICE-399). Whole bullet, still in
its jacket, reportedly found on a stretcher
at the Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas,
on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.
(5) FBI no. Q2 (CE-567). Mashed large bullet
2.
The CE-number is the number assigned by the Warren
Commission as its exhibit numbers; the FBI 0 number
is the identification number assignee by the FBI
Laboratory.
514 515
fragment, still
in its jacket, reportedly
Dallas curbing sample (FBI no. 0609) was not suitable for
recovered from the front seat of the Dallas
INAA analysts. The slight gray smear on it had previously
limousine.
been scraped by the FBI Laboratory, and the scrapings
161 FBI nos. 04. 5 tcz-6411.
One larger fragment,
analyzed by emission spectography, in 1964. The amount of
and one smaller fragment, reportedly recovered
remaining metal (?) in the smear was too small for proper
from President Xennedy's brain at autopsy.
INAA measurements,. and, further, any material scraped from
171 FBI no. Q9 !CE-8421. One larger fragment, and
the curbing would be too contaminated by cement material to
two smaller ones, reportedly recovered from
yield any meaningful INAA results.
Governor Connally's wrist during surgery.
On September 13, 1977, the remaining evidence speci-
(91 FBI no. Q14 (CE-840). Fragments reportedly
mans were examined, one at a time, more closely, under mag-
recovered from the rear floor of the Dallas
nification, to decide which ones were suitable for bullet-
limousine.
lead analysis by INAA. Two additional specimens were found
to be unsuitable for analysis:
FBI no. Q3 (CE-569)• Fragment reportedly recovered
from the front seat of the Dallas limou-
sine. This specimen consisted of only
the copper bullet jacket, with no lead
inside.
FBI no. 015 (CE-841). Particles reportedly scraped
from the inside surface of the windshield
of the Dallas limousine. No particles
were left in the specimen container re-
ceived from the Archives. The particles
probably were entirely consumed in the
emission spectrographic analyses per-
formed by the FBI Laboratory in 1963/1964.
G-our. II:
(9) FBI no. 0 10E-1411. Complete unfired
Western Cartridge Company 6.5 mm cartridge,
reportedly found in the chamber of a Mannlicher-
Careen° rifle found in the Texas School Book
Depository Building (TSBD) on November 22, 1963.
(101
FBI no. 186 (CE-573). Mashed bullet, still
in jacket, reportedly fired at General Walker
in April, 1963.
The evidence specimens from the National Archives
were inspected on September 12, 1977. Each specimen was
examined to determine if it was suitable for INAA analysis.
For a specimen to be suitable for analysis, it must contain
in excess of one milligram of uncontaminated bullet lead.
During the first inspection, it was determined that the
A.
516
The remaining evidence specimens were deemed suit-
able for INAA measurements, and were prepared for analysis
on September 13. 1977, except for the CE-141, 08 sample,
which was prepared on September 14, 1977.
Samples of the suitable evidence specimens were then
taken and prepared for analysis. Each sample was placed in
a cleaned, labeled, weighed half-dram polyethylene vial,
then weie.hed again to obtain the sample weight. For security
reasons, each vial was labeled 'HC-1', 'HC-9', etc. the PC standing
for "House Committee" and the number being the FBI Q number
(except for the Walker bullet sample, which was labeled ac-
cording to its CE number). Each sample, taken in its entirety,
or a portion of a larger specimen cut off or drilled out, when
necessary to obtain only bullet lead, was washed three times,
alternately, with distilled/deianized water and Reagent Grade
acetone, then air-dried before analysis. Deionized water was
used to remove water-
soluble salts: acetone was used to remove
oil. Once the sample was placed in its polyethylene vial,
the hinged vial cap was snapped tightly shut. Cutting, where
necessary, was performed with a cleaned surgical scalpel.
Drilling, weere necessary, was performed from the center of the
bullet base with a tiny (approximately 0.5 mat diameter)
cleaned carbon-steel drill in a pin vise holier. Care was
taken to avoid contamination of the bullet-lead sample by
jacket material, and each sample was examined under magnifi-
cation, to be sure that no visible jacket material was ad-
ae
517
herieg to the lead sample. In some instances, when more
than one suitable sample could be obtained from the same
specimen, two samples were taken for analysis from a given
specimen (HC-4, 5: HC-3: HC-9 and HC-14). The two separate
samples of a given specimen were then given an additional
number, to distinguish them from one another (e.g., HC-9-1
and HC-9-2).
The samples taken for analysis are summarized below:
CE no.
FBI No.
UC/ No.
Sample
Remarks
HLL1Til 399
QI
HC-1
10.7
Drillings from bullet.
567
Q2
HC-2
50.5
Piece cat from large
fragment.
843
Q4, 5
HC-4-1
41.9
Single larger specimen.
BC-4-2
5.4
Single smaller spec hen.
042
Q9
HC-9-1
16.4
Single larger specimen.
HC-9-2
1.1
Two tiny specimens.
840
014
HC-14-1
33.4
One single specimen.
HC-14-2
13.8
Second single specimen.
573
01BS
HC-573
16.3
Drillings frcm specimen.
1412/
Q8
HC-8-1
24.3
Drillings from bullet.
HC-a-2
6.3
Drillings from bullet.
3.
Regarding the CE-14/ (FBI O8) sampling, a special die for
6.5 mm cartridges was purchased and then used on September
14, 1977. along with the UCI reloading equipment, to dis-
assemble and later reassemble the CE-141 cartridge. The
cartridge was first examined visually, with the following
observations made: (1) the cartridge base was stamped
"WCC 6.5 me', (2) tee entire cartridge case, and the bullet
10
518
As well as preparing the evidence samples, tour
sample standards, each, of silver, antimony, and copper were
prepared on September 8 and 9, 1977 to be used in this test.
Standard samples of the elements to be measured are necessary
in order to convert the measured gaga-ray peaks quantita-
tively to micrograms of element present In a sample -- this
is the usual comparator method. Samples and standards are
activated and counted exactly the same way. Each silver
standard contained 3.25 micrograms (fig) of silver, each anti-
mony standard contained 2I3 micrograms of antimony, and each
cooper standard contained 192 micrograms of copper. Each
standard consisted of 0.100 cm3 of a freshly prepared aqueous
solution, gently dried in the bottom of a half-dram polyethyl-
ene vial, and cemented down with a few drops of a 101 paraffin
soletion in carbon disulfide (allowed to dry at room
temperature).
packet, were rather dark in color -- indicating external
exidatien/sulfiding, (3) there was no firing-pin impres-
sion at the base, where the primer. cup is located, in-
diceting that the cartridge had never undergone even an
attempted (abortive) firing. Upon disassembly, the
bullet (pro/ectilel part was found to be the same in
shape, dimensions, weight, and single canneiure as other
Western Cartridge Company 6.1 mm Manniicher-Carcano bul-
lets from their production Lots 5000, 5001, 6002, and
6003. The pristine jacketed bullet, before sampling,
was found to weigh 10.4082 grams (160.62 grains). This
compares closely with the nominal bullet weight of 161
grains quoted by the Western Cartridge Company. The gun-
powder from the cartridge was also weighed, and found to
be 2.8294 grams (43.66. grains), which agrees closely with
the manufacturer's nominal value of 44 grains. After the
two. drilling samples were taken from the bullet (24.3 mg
and 6.3 mg), the bullet was reweighed, and found to now
weigh 10.3774 grams (160.15 grains). The cartridge wax
then reassembled, with the gunpowder and sampled bullet
back in place.
519
THE ANALYSES OF THR SAMPLES AT Uti
On September 13, 19771( each sample (except for
samples EC-8-1 and HC-8-2) was activated twice and counted
twice, under conditions optimized for the generation and
detection of short-lived induced radioactive species. 1/ With
the 0CI TRIGA Mark I nuclear reactor running steadily at
full power (250 kilowatts). each sample, in its closed 1.3
cm3 polyethylene vial, was irradiated for 46 seconds in the
pneumatic-tube reactor core position (where the thermal-
neutron flux is 2.5 x 10 12 n/cm2 - sec), allowed to decay
for 40 seconds (during which the activated sample was trans-
ferred to a fresh, labeled vial), and then counted for 40
seconds ciocktime on top of a one-centimeter thick plastic
beta-particle absorber on toy of a 38 cubic-centimeter high-
resalutien coaxial lithium -drifted germanium (Ge(Li)) semi-
conductor games -ray detector, coupled to a 4496-channel
pulse-height analyzer. During the counting of a sample.
4. ?resent during these tests were Dr. Guinn; Michael
Purcell, a laboratory assistant; Archivist James Gear;
and two Federal guards.
5.
Optimized conditions vary for each element. For element
radioisotopes with a short half life, a short irradiation
time, a short decay time, and a short counting time pro-
vide optimized /NAA detection conditions. For element
radioisotopes with a long halflife, optimal conditions
are a long irradiation time, a long decay time, and a
long counting time.
520 521
the analyzer percentage deadtime was read from the deadtime
meter at the beginning and at the end of the counting
period.g As scan as the counting of the sample was com-
pleted, its complete pulse-height spectrum was transferred
twice to a fresh magnetic tape, identified by its tagword.
The samples, and the standards of antimony, silver, and
copper. were processed identically in this fashion, in suc-
cession, one at a time. Each sample and standard was then
activated and counted a second time, under the same condi-
tions.
On the following day (September L4, 1977) the samples
and the standards of antimony and copper, and sample HC-8-1,
were activated in the reactor again -- this time for one
hour and all at the same time, each sample, in its 1.3 cm3
2olyntevelene vial, in a separate tube of the 40-tube rotary
specimen rack. of the reactor. At full power (250 kilowatts).
6.
.ihele the pulse-height analyzer is measuring the size
of one electrical pulse from the Ge(Li) detector, to
determine in which of the 4096 channels it should be
stored•as a count, the analyzer cannot accept another
input pulse. This period is called "deadtime". In the
analyzer circuiting, the eercentage of the total clock-
time that is deadline is continuously monitored and
displayed on a percent deadtime meter. The counts
obtained during egiven clocktime period are then cor-
rected for this deadtime loss of counts by dividing
the observed counts by (1 minus the average fractional
deadtime) during the counting period. In order to
avoid spectrum distortion, it is not advisable to use
the counting data for really quantitative calculations
if the deadtime during the counting period is greater
than about 103.
each sample en the rotary specimen rack is exposed to an
average thermal-neutron flux of 1.0 x 1012 n/cm2 - sec.
During the first part of this one-hour irradiation, sample
HC-a-2 and one each of the antimony, silver, and copper
standards were activated in the pneumatic-tube reactor posi-
tion (at a thermal-neutron flue of 2.5 x 10 12 n/cm2 - sec)
and counted as in the measurements on the previous day: at
irradiation, decay and counting times of 40 seconds each.
The HC-5-2 sample was activated and counted twice. After
the end of the one-hour Irradiation, each sample and standard
was removed from the rotary specimen rack, each sample
transferred to a fresh labeled polyethylene vial, and then
each counted for 300 seconds livetime on the Ge(ti)/4096-
channel gamma-ray spectrometer as before. As before, also,
each pulse-height spectrum was recorded twice on the magnetic
tape, along with its identifying tagword. The time of day
at which each count was started was noted -- for use in sub-
sequent decay corrections.
At the beginning of the counting on each day, the
energy scale was calibrated by means of the 661.6 keV gamma
ray of cesium - 137 and the 1112.4 key gamma ray of cobalt -
60. The energy calibration pulse-height spectra were also
stored an the magnetic tape. The energy range covered was
from 15 keV (channel 2) to 3277 keV (channel 4096).
On subsequent days, each recorded pulse-height
spectrum was read back off the magnetic tape. Each spectrum
522
was scanned carefully on the expanded oscilloscope display,
and the energy of each significant photopeak observed was
calculated and printed out on the Teletypewriter, using the
built-in PCP-8 computer. Each selected photopeak of quanti-
tative interest!! was printed out channel by channel, in-
cluding the regions on each side of the peak. In the spectra
from the pneumatic-tube measurements, the principal photo-
peaks obsereed were the following,
1. the 638 keV peak of 24.4-second silver - 110.
2. the 498, 603, and 646 key peaks of 91-second
antimony - 124m1.
3. the 1039 keV peak of 5.10-minute copper - 66.
3matler peaks due to 2.31-minute aluminum - 28 (at 1779 keV)
and due to 66.9-minute lead - 204m (at 175, 899, and 912 keV)
were also observed and printed out. The 564 keV peak of 2.90-
day antimony - 122 and the 511 keV peak of 12.80-hour cooper -
54 were observed, but not printed out.
In the spectra from the rotary-rack.measurements,
7.
An oscilloscope is employed t6 :•isually display the pulse-
height spectrum. Generally, the specteum has tha "shape
of a descending curve, upon which peaks are superimposed.
Each element radioisotope shows characteristic peaks of
certain energies and of different sizes. A peak size
measurement is made by measuring its area. A peak of the
tested sample is rater compared with the area of the cor-
responding peak of one of the known standard samples. The
relative area of the peak from the tasted sample compared
to the area of the peak from the known standard indicates
the total weight of the element within the tested sample.
In some cases, there are overlaes of peaks of similae
energies. Accordingly, the photopeak measured for any
given element is chosen considering two factors -- a large
peak, and one which does not overlap with a peak of another
element. Such a peak is a selected photopeak oeequantita-
tive interest.
523
the principal photopeaks observed were the following:
1. the 511 key peak of 12.80-hour copper - 64.
2. the 564 keV peak of 2.80-day antimony - 122.
Smaller peaks due to 2.576-hour manganese - 56 (primarily
at 847 keV), to 60.4-day antimony - 124 (primarily at 603
keV), to 14.96-hour sodium - 24 (at 1368 keV and 2754 keV),
to 37.29-minute chlorine - 38 (at 1643 keV and 2168 keV),
and to 66.9-minute lead - 204m (at 375, 999, and 912 keV)
were also observed and printed out.
For all spectra, the counts in each channel of each
selected photopeak, and the counts in several channels on
each side of each peak, were printed out. From these read-
outs, and those of the antimony, silver, and copper standards
and the sample •weights, the concentration of each of these
three elements of particular interest (and the standard
deviation of each, calculated from the counting statistics)
was calculated from the pneumatic-tube data for 24.4-second
silver - 110, 93-second antimony - 124m1 (via its 458 key
peak), and 5.10-minute copper - 66. From previous activa-
tions of lead standards, the concentration of lead in each
sample was calculated from the sum of the photopeak areas of
the 375, 899, and 912 keV peaks of 66.9-minute lead - 204m.
Using standard table values, the concentration of aluminum
in each sample was calculated from the 1779 keV peak of 2.31-
524
minute aluminum - 28. In the calculations, small corrections
were made for the average analyzer fractional deadtime during
each counting.
Similarly, from the rotary-rack data, the concentra-
tion of antimony in each sample was calculated from the site
of the 564 keV peak of 2.30-day antimony - 122, and the con-
centration of copper in each sample was calculated from the
size of the 511 keV oositron annihilation peak of 12.80-
hour copper - 64. From the previous activation of lead
standards, the concentration of lead in each sample was
again calculated from the sum of the photopeak areas of the
375, 899, and 912 keV peaks of 66.9-minute lead - 204m (note:
lead - 204m is a fast-neutron product of lead, rather than a
thermal-neutron (n,le) product, formed by the lead - 204
(n. n') lead - 204m reaction). rising standard table values,
the concentration of manganese in each sample was calculated
from the 847 keV peak of 2.576-hour manganese - 56, of sodium
from the 1368 keV peak of 14.96-hour sodium -.24, and of
chlorine from the 2168 kev peak of 37.29-minute chlorine - 38.
All observed peak areas were, of course, corrected to the same
decay time, by means of the radioisotope halflife and the
time between the end ofothe rotary-rack irradiation and the
start of the counting period of the sample.
525
IV.
THE RESULTS OBTAINED IN THIS STUDY (1977)
The results obtained on the tasted specimens for
Group I are presented in Table I, Appendix B. and those for
Group El in Table III, Appendix G. The Tables list the con-
centration found in weight percent for lead, and in parts-
per-million by w
eight (ppm) for the elements antimony,
silver, copper, aluminum. manganese, sodium, and chlorine --
eight elements in all.
The values shown for silver and aluminum were cal-
culated from peak areas of 24.4-second silver - 110 (at 658
keV) and of 2.31-minute aluminum - 28 (at 1779 keV), re-
spectiv
ely
, in the pulse-height spectra from the 40-second
oneumatic-tube activations. As noted earlier, these spectra
also showed peaks due to antimony - 124m1, comer - 66, and
lead - 204m, but these three elements were determinable sore
exactly from the spectra obtained in the one-hour rotary-
rack irradiation, and, hence the Table values far antimony
(via the 564 keV peak of 2.80-day antimony - 122), copper
(via the 511 keV peak of 12.80-hour copper - 641, and lead
(via the three peaks of 66.9-minute lead - 204m) are those
obtain
ed from the rotary-rack irradiation. The results
shown in the. Tables for manganese, sodium, and chlorine are
also from the rotary-rack irradiation.
••■
526
Two of the very small samples analyzed (the 5.4
milligram HC-4-2 sample, and the 1.3 milligram HC-9-2
sample) had results within expected standard deviations to
those obtained from the respective larger samples (the 41.9
milligram HC-4-1 sample, and the 16.4 milligram HC-9-1
sample), but the such more exact values obtained from the
larger samples, only, are shown in the Tables.
In most cases, the
value shown after each value
in the Tables represents the uncertainty of the value (ex-
pressed as one standard deviation) computed only from the
counting statistics. In general, the overall uncertainty of
a given value may be in some cases as much as two or three
times the standard deviation calculated just from the count-
ing statistics. For silver and aluminum, which were measured
twice on each sample, the + values shown represent one
standard deviation calculated from either the counting
statistics or the spread of the two values -- whichever was
larger.
The ppm values shown in the Tables for antimony,
silver, and copper were obtained, as mentioned earlier, by
comparison with standard samples of these elements activated
and counted along with the various evidence samples, and hence
these values should be quite accurate. Similarly, the results
for lead should be very reliable since they were based on
527
previously tested lead standards. Far the remaining elements
(aluminum, manganese, sodium, and chlorine). whose presence
was not known in advance, as mentioned earlier, standards of
these elements were thus not prepared at the time Of these
experiments. Instead, standard table values were used in the
calculations for these elements. As a result, the reported
ppm values for these four elements present in the evidence
sample could be in error by a factor of perhaps two on an
absolute scale. However, the use of tabulated standard
values does not affect the relative values -- only the absolute
values of a given element in the various samples.S/
17--- For example, if the estimated values for aluminum, based
on standard tables, In two samples were 5.0+0.5 or and
2.5+0.3 ppm, the ratio of their aluminum concentrations
would be 2.01+0.31 to 1. tf the standard table value
for aluminum vera 203 high, for example, the true sample
aluminum values would be 6.2+0.6 ppm and 3.1, -0.3 ppm,
respectively, but their ratio would still be 2.01+0.3)
to 1.
529 528
v.
CONCLystoNs
A. It is highly probable that the evidence specimens
from Group I are all fragments from Mannlicher-Carcarm bullets.
As discussed in Appendix C., Mannlicher-Carcano am-
:ai^itian displays very distinct characteristics when analyzed
by neutron activation analysis. The ammunition displays an
unusual range of concentrations for the antimony in bullet
lead. The concentrations for silver are unusual as well,
although not as distinct as those of antimony. Based upon
these characteristics, and the results obtained from an analysis
OE the evidence specimens, it is highly probable that all the
evidence soecimens are fracments from Manniicher-Carcano bullets.
The antimony content of the ev
iden
ce fragments is such that
it is significantly h
igher
than that found in most unhardened
bullet lead
examined
by the author, and significantly lower
than
chat found in bultat
elead of hardened lead bullets
examined by the author. Such an intermediate range of antimony
concentrations is particularly characteristic-of MannIicher-
Carcano ammunition. The values of silver found in
the
fragments
also support the conclusion that the fragments are from
Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition, as these values also are within the
range characteristic of̂mannligher-Caroano ammunition.
8- it is hichly probable that the Walker bullet is a
Banclicher-Carcano bullet.
The bullet fragment recovered from the home of
General Walker Is apparently also from mannlicher-Carcano
ammunition. This sample (CE-573, FBI (11881 of a bullet
fragment recovered from the home of General Walker in April
of 1963 was analyzed by the Pt/ in late 1963, but only by
the rather qualitative method of emission spectography.
They did not analyze it by neutron activation analysis.
This sample was analyzed by INAA during the UCI analysis.
It was determined that the bullet lead consisted of almost 100%
lead, with only 17 ppm antimony and 20.6 ppm silver. (See
Appendix G.1 Its composition, therefore, is considerably
different from any of the Dallas specimens -- which are also
almost 100% lead, but contain much more antimony (602 to 833
ppm) end much less silver (7.9 to 9.8 ppm). However, the
antimony content of the Walker bullet is close to the range
of Sb values found earlier at OCT for Mannlicher-Carcano
bullets from the four Western Cartridge Compaoy production
lots (24 to 1218 ppmi, and also close to the range of Ag
values found in such ammunition (6.0 to 15.9 ppml. Further-
more, the composition of the Walker bullet is very close to
that of the unfired Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge reportedly
recovered from the rifle found in the TSBD.
The unfired MC cartridge (CE-141, PSI 08) was never
before taken apart cr analyzed. At MCI it was examined,
taken apart, its several components weighed, the bullet lead
sampled, the cartridge reassembled, and the two small bullet-
lead samples taken from it analyzed byINAA. (See Apendix G.1
530
631
Its composition (almost 100% lead, 15 poe antimony, and 22.4
pen silver) is extremely close to that of the Walker bullet
and, consequently, supports the conclusion that the Walker
fragment is from WC ammunition.
C. The results indicate the cresence of only two
bullets in Group I.
When the recent DC/ results were analyzed statistic-
ally, taking into account both the overall reproducibility
of the measurements on a single sample and the variability
due :e counting statistics of the individual measurements,
evidence for the presence of only two bullets is found. Where-
as, for most brands of ammunition it is not possible to dis-
tinguish between two bullets from cartridges from the same
box/production lot, earlier studies by the author on western
Cartridge Company Nannlichet-Carcano 5.5 mm bullets have
shown that t:Iis
brand (lots 6000, 6001, 6002, 6003) exhibits
widely different antimony values, even amongst bullets
from a given lot, so that individual bullets of this brand can
usually be distinguished from one another. (See Appendix C.)
The presence of only two bullets is indicated as
follows:
Ol
(Stretcher bullet) and Q9 (fragments from
Connally's wrist) match one another within one
standard deviation in both antimony and silver.
04, 5
(Fragments from President Kennedy's brain),
02 (large fragment found in car), and 014
(smaller fragments found in car) match one
another within one standard deviation in
both antimony and silver.
Di,
although similar in silver content, is
markedly different in antimony content from
02, 04, 5, and 014.
09
differs considerably from 02, Q4, 5, and
014 in bath antimony and silver..
These results therefore indicate the presence of
only two bullets: (01 and 09 one bullet) and (02, 04, 5, and
014 a second bullet). There is no evidence of a third
bullet.2/ The analyses not only resulted in values for silver
and antimony in the various samples, but also in values for
six additional elements: lead, copper, aluminum, manganese,
sodium and chlorine. The values for these additional six
elements do n
ot appear to contribute much useful information
except to confirm, quantitatively, that all the samples are
approximately 100% lead. With the exception of 09, all the
9.
Independent research conducted by the author (See, Refer-
ence Number 10 in Appendix H.) indicates that a careful
analysis of the data obtained by the FBI during the INAA
tests con
du
cted by the FBI in 1954 (using a scintillation
detector rather than the higher-resolution modern Ge(L1)
detector) would reach this same co
nclu
sion.
The Far re-
ported the results of its tests as Inconclusive due to
the wide variety of absolute values obtained each time a
sample was tested. These results, however, were under
differing test conditions. It is necessary to compare
the results obtained under a given set of conditions.
rather than a compariaon of all the values under all
conditinns, to reach
the co
nclu
sion
that only two bullets
were present.
532
copper values were approximately the same -- in the range of
40 to 58 ppm. The very high copper value of the 09 sample
1994 ppel) is most likely due to contamination from the cooper
jacket of the bullet. The copper values for samples Q4, 5,
Q2, and Q14 average 42 + 2 ppm -- appreciably different from
the 01 (stretcher bullet) copper value of 58 + 3 ppm. The
aluminum values range from 1.1 to 3.1 ppm and show no
systematic trends between the two groups of samples. Similar-
ly, the manganese values range from 0.01 to 0.10 ppm and
show no systenatic behavior. The sodium values show a wide
range. from 5 to 134 ppm, and the chlorine values also show
a wide range, from 19 to 257 ppm -- in both cases with no
evidence of any trends. Even though all the samples were
washed three times with pere water and pure acetone, to free
them of any salt (sodium chloride) possibly accumulated on
the exteriors of tne samples from previous exposures to the
air and/or Possible handling by fingers (perspiration), it
cannot be ruled out that some slight and variable amounts of
salt contamination were still present in some of the
samples. It might be significant that the two samples that
show the highest levels of sodium and chlorine are samples
Q4, 5 (President Kennedy's brain) and Q9 (Governor Connally's
wrist) -- the only two samples that were recovered from
biological tissue. It is barely possible that these samples,
in spite of the washing, still contained a small but signifi-
cant amount of dried body fluid (e.g., blood), which would
111.
533
increase the levels of sodium and chlorine in the samples.
The other samples exhibited much lower levels of sodium
only 5 to 19 ppm) and of chlorine only L9 to 40 ppm).
Accordingly, neutron activation analysis of the
evidence specimens tested indicates the presence of only two
bullets in Group I. It is highly probable that the specimen
tested from Ql (the stretcher bullet) ana the specimen tested
from Q9 (the fragments from Governor Connally's wrist) are
from the same bullet. It is highly probable that G2 (large
fragment found in the limousine), Q4 and S (fragments from
President Kennedy's brain) and 014 (smaller fragments found In
limousine) are all from a second bullet. There is no evidence
of a third bullet from any of the evidence specimens tested.
10.
More recent very detailed INAA studies made at UCI (See
reference 11 in Appendix 9) on 10 samples from each of 16
Mannlicher-Carcano bullets -- 4 from each of the 4 produc-
tion lots -- give a more complete picture of the generally
high degree of homogeneity of individual bullets and the
wide variation from bullet to bullet, regardless of lot
number, of the antimony concentration in particular, the
appreciable variation of the silver concentration, and
the lesser variation of the copper concentration. However,
the earlier data and these more recent data do show some
Mannlicher-Carcano bullets that cannot be distinguished
from one another via only their antimony and silver
concentrations. From these data, it appears that if 2
cartridges are removed at random from a box of Mannlicher-
Careen° cartridges, although it is highly probable that
they would differ significantly in their antimony and
silver concentrations, it is at least possible that they
might not.
534 635
APPENDIX A
LIST OF ABBAEVIATIONS AND SYMBOLS
0CI
University of California at Irvine, or 0.C. Irvine.
FBI
(U.S.) Federal Bureau of Investigation.
MC
Mannlicher-Carcano.
Sh
Chemical symbol for the element, antimony.
Acs
Chemical symbol for the element, silver.
Cu
Chemical symbol fox the element, copper.
Pb
Chemical symbol for the element, lead.
Al
Chemical symbol for the element, aluminum.
Mn
Chemical symbol for the element, manganese.
Na
Chemical symbol for the element, sodium
Cl
Chemical symbol for the element, chlorine.
122st Symbol for the antimony radioisotope of mass number 122.
(half life of 2.80 days), antimony - 122.
124m15h Symbol for the metastable antimony radioisotope of mass
member 124 (half life
of
93
seconds), antimony
124mi.
1245h Symbol for the antimony radioisotope of mass
number 124 (half Life of 60.4 days}, antimony - 124.
110Ag
Symbol for the silver radioisotope of mass number 110
(half life of 24.4 seconds), silver - 110.
64cu
Symbol for the copper radioisotope of-mass
number 64 (half life of 12.80 h
ou
rs). cop
per -
64.
66Cu
symbol for the copper radioisotope of mass
number 66 (half life of 5.10 minutes), cop
per -
66.
204mph Symbol for the metastable lead radioisotope of
mass number 204 (half' life o
f 66.9
minutes),
lead - 204m.
Symbol fo
r the aluminum radioisotope of mass
28Al
number 28 (half Life of 2.31 minutes), aluminum -
28.
$6
Symbol for the manganese radioisotope of mass
Mn
number 56 (half life
of
2.576 hours), manganese
56.
24ua
Symbol for the sodium radioisotope of mass number
24 (half life of 14.96 hours), sodium - 24.
Symbol for the chlorine radioisotope of mass
3801
number 38 (h
alf life
of 3
7.2
9 minutes),
chlorine - 38.
NAA
Neutron activation analysis.
fNAA
Instrumental nntiti-p
n activation analysis.
CE
Abbreviation for (Warren) "Commission Exhibit".
537
Abbreviation for standard deviation, a statistical
measure of precision (also abbreviated as r or s).
Abbreviation far centimeter, a metric unit of
length (one inch equals 2.54 cm; one cm equals
10 mm).
Std.
dev.
cm
536
4C
Sample designation abbreviation used at UCI,
referring to "House Committee".
Abbreviation for cubic centimeter, a metric unit
of volume (one cubic inch equals 16.4 cm3).
Ge(1,1) Abbreviation for a lithium-drifted germanium
semiconductor gamma-rav detector.
rim
Aboreviation for millimeter, a metric unit of
length (one inch equals 25.4 mm).
mg
Abbreviation for milligram, a metric unit of mass
or weight (one gram equals 1000 mg.(.
•
Abbreviation for gram, a metric unit of mass or
weight (one ounce equals 29.3 c).
pg
Abbreviation for microgram. a metric unit of
mass
or weight (one gram equals one million pg).
•
Abbreviation for neutron, a fundamental particle
that is a constituent of atomic nuclei.
ca 2
Abbreviation for square centimeter, a metric unit
of area (one square inch equals 6.41 cm2).
key
Abbreviation for one thousand electron volts of
energy.
▪
Abbreviation for gamma, as in gamma ray (e'ray).
Abbreviation for parts-per-million by weight (one
ppm
ppm equals one pg of constituent per gram of material).
3 qa
APPENDIX C
BACKGROUND DATA ON MANNLICHER-CARCANO
AMMUNITION
During 1964, Dr. John Nichols obtained boxes of
Western Cartridge Company Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 mm
cartridges from the four different production lots
of this ammunition that they produced: Lots 6000, 6001,
6002, and 6003. According to the Western Cartridge
Company, these production lots of this ammunition were of
one million rounds each, all produced in 1954 for the
U. S. Army. Each cartridge contained an average of 44
grains (2.85 grams) of a special blend of Western Ball.
Powder. The lead cores of the bullets weighed 110 grains
(7.13 grams), had a diameter of 5.33 mm and
a length of
26.2 mm, and consisted of 10 soft lead (99.851 pure).
The bullet jacket weighed 51 grains (3.3 grams), had a
side wall thickness of 0.66 mm, and consisted o! CDA No.
220 Commercial Bronze (90% copper, 101 zinc). The primer
cup was made of CDA alloy no. 260 cartridge brass (701
copper, 109 zinc), and its main components were 371 lead
styphnate, 32% barium nitrate, 151 antimony sulfide,
7% aluminum powder, 51 PETS, and 4% tetracene. Dr. Nichols
used some of this ammunition
in various test firings
0 Nn means none detected.
•
538 539
0 44 V
4
G > 0
V
• -11 91 • 4
44
C LIS C
.14 .I-1 H
I 0.I .-4
‘1. ea
04
H
4
y 0
IN
0 H
L0 mLc.0 L4
DIV
" 00 ,0
. 0
VI .-I-I 7
. C 0
4
44 0
-,-4 >
, 0 . 0 RI
0 H
>
4E
4
924
C n
a 3. 0
in 0 4.4
..1 J.} 93
t..1 C .0 ‘r >
In . . 40
.
ti 10
01
4 H
..0
..4
42CV020
44
44MME.Um
0>
V 0
>.
.0
2 a
c miq 4 3
.4 3
a 0 4
11 • 0
1
4 . . 1
-4 .
> =I t ir 1 .5 4 11 4 4 0;
S 0
a a a a a
C 1
3 H
NI 0
•
w
in c a
i
c a a a a a 4.• -
c ,-I
04 -1
rrr •-t -4.1
+4 +
1' +
1
-440
a 0
-•r a
a
•Y
a N
43
2 ' 2 VG30 >
0. Cl m a
a 0
. 0
va.1
4.2
c
XL
CL 4.-1,30
0000 0 o O C
M
O
0 m V
a >
VI 0
3
4
M
>L4.1
0.m. 02 04
4.
N v
ut1
I.1
1 a
. 4
00
=0
0
.
• V
'10
vi 4)
0
Cl 0
...1 0
a
0
0.I V
C 4
-I 0 7
0 .c
-,.. 1 2
+ I #
11 +
I +1
0 0
•4
VI H
N V
. LI 3
4
0 2
.,.. 0
0
VI .4-1 a
. 0 u u > o
. 1[.a m. N
0
Qui ....c
..
a
a0041.v
U 2
V
3.G0
E.... m
c
J.. M 0 a
r. .
N
+4
N N
V a
E
NV
>
1 4
0 .0
4
4.• +
1
+1
e- +
I +i
0 V 44
13 q.
Cl C
l 1
3 IS
V
N
0
• =
0 0
0)
01 10 V
v V
•o• v
0
OE
. 0.7
. .
HI Z
M
-100
V
10 H
WI
n 0
2.0
4 Em=
•a a a 0 o
-44 .1
M
CMCcE
4- +1 +4 M M M C
£020
a 5
Cl . aaam
EL
..-10
-,.. 41.00
'2
-LJ CI .1., .C.
14 ✓
at
N a
1 C
7 N
7
01
7
. •"' I.
H m U.
-wa Ii
< .91 . 4.4 C 414
G2
. KS
0 I ....-I 0
0
✓
V
V N
V v
L. 3
H .0
. 0. +
I .0
+
I + 1
4-1
+4 +
4 +
1
0 4
14 rn
a 0
a m 0 a '9 0
1 •
-• N
Ca N
I.L
.
In
0
0
1 a H
v
14
• 01 0
-1
Cl
412 '4
, C
... '4
, W
I =
01
1
4C
4'
1,
1., )0>
c..2
....-lu
a
0
..Ial
40 e-1 00. L
IC
0E
1$3.1
.1
04
/0
0
70
4.1-
1.0
0
-r N
N
4
4.1
4. 0
0 0
433
+4 N
ess +
1 N
+1 1
12.0
LCV04m
m
+ 1
+1 e
r +1 n
cll
14 CU 01
. 1
9
4
a u
, tn
. o c
0
70
34
4
411214:>>
-I
a
a .. a
H •
-I 3.1
4 0
.04
1
0 7
0
MCM ..CL.Cr4=4m.
>O
a
a 414 rs .4
-• NI,
. . . ml
E .0
C W
0 C 1.,
.I
(V I ,
eh i
1 anii mo,.. 4E20
4 4
sr.
0 c a
0 0
.4 H
3 444.1
77.7
• 0
41.1) I•4 .
0 . • ,..
,
0441
gm
.u5S
ou.
.n a a
44 > 0
0 0
0 3
Z.
HP
N
Cl V
J0 V
v0 0
C 0 . 0
•er H
0 .0
44 +
1 V +
I 7
.0 .0
4.1 0 0
. 0 0
Et 0
0
0
OarJaa.0
G.10
gaC
OC
rCu
p
a N
. o
r 0
F
OC
El2
.(JE
84
. a '0
, , e
-
rn
WIC
E.C
7C
0
V
A
APPENDIX B
RE:in/TS EBOM SEPTExBEt: 1977 fNAA 61a EVIDENCE SPECIMENS AT U.C. 1RVINB
4 4
E M4
44 =
X
a 5
.0
E0.1
s ii U
6 >
1
E g
40
3
0
v.
61
a
L., 1
m 0
+1
N 0
+1 +1
+1 r--
+4 41
6-1 .0
N
N
V
I 10
In N
=a "1
a
n'
.
+1 ,
+1 H
H
H
+
t ...4 -1-
1
W
r1
0 M M
Nencl
m 0 m
m
m
540
that he conducted with a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle of
the sane make as that reportedly used by Lee Harvey
Oswald. Lace in 1972, Or. Nichols contacted the
author, offering to supply bullet-lead samples from
the four production lots, for NAA examination by the
author. The author accepted the offer, and Or. Nichols
shortly sent him two bullets from Lot 6000 and four
each from Lots 6001, 6002, and 6003. The author
commenced analysis of these in late 1973 with most of the
work carried out during 1974 and a few final measurements
early in 1975.
Samples ranging in weight from 44 to 58 milligrams
(each weighed to within
0.1 milligram) were drilled out
from the open base end of each bullet with a cleaned small
steel drill, after first scraping the surface of the
bullet face free of oxidized layer with a clean stainless-
steel scalpel. Each drilled sample was washed with high-
purity toluene, to remove any oil or grease possibly
present. In the first analyses, all 14 samples, along with a
standard of antimony, were activated for 2 hours in the
rotary-specimen rack of the UCI TRIGA Mark I reactor, at
a thermal-neutron flux of 1.0 x 1012 n/cm2-sec. After
541
a decay period of approximately 24 hours, each activated
sample was counted for 200 seconds livetime on top of
a 38 cm3 Ge(1,41 detector (with a 1 cm beta-particle
absorber), coupled to a 4096-channel pulse-height analyzer.
The only photopeaks observed were those of 12.80-hour
64cu, 2.80-day I22Sb, 60.4-day 1246b, and 14.96-hour 24,a.
The counts in the 511 keV peak of "
Cu, in the 564 kev
peak of 1225b, and in the 1368 cell
peak of 24Na were
printed out. After correcting all of the data to the
same decay time, the number of micrograms of copper (Cu),
antimony (Sb), and sodium (Na) in each sample was calculated,
along with its standard deviation -- calculated from the
counting statistics. Dividing each pg value by the sample
weight, in grams, then gave the ppm concentrations. The
Cu and Na values were calculated from tabulated standard
values. These are tabulated in Table II-A.
Later, after the previously-induced activities had
decayed down to negligible levels, the 14 samples were
activated and counted again, under different conditions.
This time, the samples were activated and counted in sequence,
one at a time. Each sample was activated for 40 seconds
in the pneumatic-tube position of the reactor, at a
thermal-neutron flux of 2.5 x 1012 n/cm2 -sec. After a
543
The new antimony results (from 124mlsb) and the new
copper results (from "Cu) in all cases compared well
with the results for these two elements obtained in the
previous longer irradiation (with measurement, instead,
of 1225b and "
Cu). However, the counting statistics
(precisions) of the 1225b and "
Cu results from the
longer irradiation were much better than those of the
1242'15b and "Cu results from the 40-second irradiations,
so only the 1225b and "
Cu results are given in Table II-A.
The antimony results obtained, shown in Table I1.711,
were surprising. In all earlier studies of commercial bullet
leads, individual bullets were found to be quite homogeneous
in their antimony concentrations, and bullets from the same
box of cartridges were found to be closely similar to one
a thermal-neutron flux only 1/110 as large. Microgram
and ppm values for As, Sb, and Cu wets then calculated
for each sample (along with its standard deviation, based
upon the counting statistics) from the sizes of the 653
another in their antimony concentrations. In sharp con-
trast, the bullet-to-bullet variation in antimony content
amongst bullets from the same box of Mannlicher-Carcano
cartridges is seen to be tremendous:
the four samples
keV peak of 24.4-second 110As, the 498 key peak of 93-
of lot 6001 bullet lead ranged all the way from 158 ppm
second 124711
5b, and the 1039 keV
peak of 5.10-minute
to 1218 ppm Sb; those of lot 6002 bullet lead all the
way from 24 to 949 ppm Sb; and those of lot 6003 all the
66Cu. The silver results are also included in Table II=A
way from 80 to 730 ppm Sb.
In general, such antimony
values indicate that (1) the bullets were indeed a soft
decay period of 40 seconds (during which the a
ctiv
ate
d
sample was transferred
to a fresh v
ial),
each
sample
was counted.
for 40 seconds clocktime under the same
counting conditions used in the previous measurements.
In the subsequent calculations, a small correction was
made for the average analyzer deadtime during each
cou
ntin
g.
The principal induced activities observed
in the pulse-height spectra were those of 24.4-second
110Ag(658 keVa,), 5.10-minute "Cu (1039 keVI), and 93-
second 12
-
4mlab (499, 603, and 646 keVy's), although the
12.80 hour "Cu (511 keV,)') and 2.00-dav 122Sb (564 keV,?-)
activities were also observed, as well as very small peaks
due to 66.9-minute 2134'
''Pb (373„ 899, and 912 keV's).
Standards of silver, antimony, and copper were then
activated and counted under the same conditions, but at
044 545
Le
ad
, sin
ce
bu
llet le
ad
de
libe
rate
ly h
ard
en
ed
by a
lloyin
g
the L
ead w
ith a
ntim
ony re
quire
s th
e a
dditio
n o
f anyw
here
from
ab
ou
t 0.4
i (40
00
pp
m) S
b u
p to
se
ve
ral p
erc
en
t, (2) n
o
effo
rt was m
ade b
y th
e m
anufa
ctu
rer to
contro
l the
antim
ony c
onte
nt o
f the b
ulle
t lead,
so lo
ng a
s it w
as
much le
ss th
an 4
000 p
pm
, and (3
) the h
igh d
egre
e o
f Sb
va
riab
ility d
urin
g a
pro
du
ctio
n ru
n in
dic
ate
s th
at th
e
lea
d s
up
ply
wa
s o
f mix
ed
so
urc
es, a
pp
are
ntly
co
nta
inin
g a
n
appre
cia
ble
am
ount o
f scra
p le
ad (s
om
e o
f whic
h is
antim
ony-
hard
ene
d le
ad
), sin
ce v
irgin
lea
d s
eld
om
conta
ins m
ore
cha
r. 10
-20
pp
m S
b.
Fro
m a
gre
at d
eal o
f earlie
r work
an th
e /N
AA
of
bu
llet-le
ad
sa
mp
les fo
r Ag
, 5b
, an
d C
u, it h
ad
be
en
esta
blis
hed th
at th
e m
eth
od its
elf w
as h
ighly
repro
ducib
le,
ap
pro
xim
ate
ly to
with
in th
e lim
its im
po
se
d b
y th
e c
ountin
g
sta
tistic
s,
for a
ny in
div
idu
al s
am
ple
. T
o p
rove
this
po
int, h
ow
eve
r, tw
o in
div
idu
al s
pe
cim
en
s
(6.0
01 a
and 6
002
B) w
ere
ea
ch
an
aly
ze
d fo
ur tim
es,
for A
g, 5
b, a
nd C
u,
un
de
r the
pn
eu
ma
tic-tu
be
co
nd
ition
s.
As c
an b
e s
ee
n
fou
r pie
ce
s --
one o
f whic
h w
as th
e sp
ecim
en
an
alyze
d
ea
rlier.
These s
am
ple
s w
ere
then a
naly
zed fo
r Ag,
Sb, a
nd
Cu u
nder th
e s
am
e p
neum
atic
-tube c
onditio
ns u
sed b
efo
re.
The re
sults
are
show
n in
Table
II-C. A
s c
an b
e s
een,
of th
e th
ree
bu
llets
sa
mp
led
, on
e (6
00
1 C
) is
fairly
ho
mo
ge
ne
ou
s in
all th
ree
ele
me
nts
; on
e (6
00
2 A
) is
fairly
hom
ogeneous in
Ag a
nd C
u, b
ut ro
t so h
om
ogeneous
in S
b;
from
the re
sults
, show
n in
Ta
ble
II3,th
e re
pro
du
cib
ility
for a
giv
en
sa
mp
le is
ind
ee
d q
uite
sa
tisfa
cto
ry. A
fter
ea
ch
pp
m v
alu
e is
sh
ow
n its
sta
nd
ard
de
via
tion
, ba
se
d u
po
n
its c
ou
ntin
g s
tatis
tics. T
he
-I-
valu
e s
how
n a
fter e
ach
an
d o
ne
(60
03
A) is
fairly
ho
mo
ge
ne
ou
s in
Cu
, bu
t no
t
ho
mo
ge
ne
ou
s in
Sb
or A
g. H
ow
eve
r, co
mp
aris
on
of
Ta
ble
II-Cw
ithT
ab
leIz
,A in
dic
ate
s th
at, in
genera
l, the
mean v
alu
e, h
ow
ever, is
the s
tandard
devia
tion o
f the
set
of
fou
r va
lue
s, c
alc
ula
ted
from
the
de
via
tion
s o
f the
va
lue
s fro
m th
e m
ea
n v
alu
e. It c
an
be seen th
at th
e
sta
nd
ard
de
via
tion
sh
ow
n w
ith
the m
ean v
alu
e is
ge
ne
rally
fairly
clo
se
to th
e c
ou
ntin
g-s
tatis
tics s
tan
da
rd d
evia
tion
of a
n in
div
idual m
easure
ment.
To s
tudy th
e d
egre
e o
f hom
ogeneity
of in
div
idual
Mannlic
her-C
arc
ano b
ulle
ts, fo
ur s
am
ple
s of b
ulle
t lead w
ere
analy
zed fro
m e
ach o
f thre
e in
div
idual b
ulle
ts (b
ulle
ts
60
01
C, 6
00
2 A
, and 6
003 A
). The la
rger d
rillings o
bta
ined
from
ea
ch
of th
ese
thre
e b
ulle
ts (w
hic
h w
ere
ma
de
ap
pro
xim
ate
ly
dow
n th
e lo
ngitu
din
al a
xis
of e
ach
bu
llet) w
ere
cu
t into
546 547
heterogeneity within an individual Mannlicher-Car ,ano
bullet is much less than the heterogeneity from one
bullet to another. One of the primary conclusions,
therefore, of the results of the UCI background study of
MC bullet lead indicates a wide range of Sb values.
from bullet to bullet, but reasonable homogeneity within
an individual bullet.
APPENDIX D
TABLE II-A
THE TRACE-ELEMENT COMPOSITION OF MANNLICHER-CARCANO 6.3 mm BULLET
LENDS FROM LOTS 6000, 6001, 6002, AND 6003
(INAA results obtained by V.P. Guinn during 1973-1975)
ppm Element Found, and Standard Deviation in ppm'
Lot No.
Bullet Sample
No.
Wt.(ng)
Silver
Antimony
Copper
Sodium
6000
A
51.2
11.8+0.4
173+3
372+6
13+1
B
45.6
13.5+0.5 261+3
167+4
15+1
6001
A
47.8
12.2+0.6
158+3 (2766+16).. 12,1
B
57.9
15.3+0.5 732+5
23+2
13+1
C
58.3
8.30.4
1218+7
48+2
15+1
0
47.2
11.6+0.4
161+3
147+4
17+1
6002
A
51.8
9.1.0.4
385+4
30,
2
12+1
B
52.8
9.7+0.4
949+6
25+2
12+1
C
55.3
6.0+0.3
24+1
120+3 15+1
0
51.3
8.3+0.6 121+2 (4516+21).. 13+1
6003
A
54.3
15.3+0.5 730+5
21+2
12.1
0 44.6
7.9+0.4
80+2
62+2
20+2
C
44.7
8.3+0.4
464+5
36+2
17+1
13 44.0
8.7.0.4
240+3
17.2
15+1
am. •
One standard deviation, based only upon the counting-
statistics standard deviation of a single measurement.
These two copper values are extremely high. It may be
that these two samples were contaminated with jacket
material during the drilling out of the sample.
• •
• I
•
548 '1
9
APPENDIX E
APPENDIX '
TABLE LI-B
TABLE II-u
REPRODUCIBILITY MEASUREMENTS ON TWO INDIVIDUAL SPECIMENS OF
MANNLICHER-CARCANO BULLET LEAD (MACE BY V.P. GUINN, PNEUMATIC-
TUBE CONDITIONS).
Measurement
Specimen
No.
ppm Element Found + One Standard Deviatio:
antimony
sliver
coorier
60013(57.3mg)
1
621,
56
15.3+0.5 19+10
2
646+55
16.6+0.4 19+4
3
646+55
13.9+0.4 18+5
4
791+55
15.0+0.4
20+5
mean:
676+78
15.2+1.1 18.5+1.3
60028(52.9mq)
1
990 . 1
60
9.7+0.4
16+10
2
1007+56
10.1+0.4
10+5
3 942+56
9.8+0.4
24.5
4
946+56
10.7+0.4
24,5
mean:
971-32
10.1+0.5 18.5+6.8
Standard deviation of individual measurements based
upon counting statistics only. Standard deviation
shown with mean values based upon the spread of
the four individual measurements.
HOMOGENEITY MEASUREMENTS ON FOUR SPECIMENS FROM EACH OF THREE
INDIVIDUAL MANNLICHER-CARCANO BULLETS (MADE BY V.P. GUINN,
PNEUMATIC-TUBE CONDITIONS)
Production
Lot
ppm Element Found + One Standard Deviation'
Specimen
Antimony
Silver
Copper
6001
6001C
1139+60
8.5+0.4
67+11
600101
1062.60
9.5+0.4 (391+17)"
6001C2
1235+93
10.1+0.6
20+7
6001C3
1156+90
9.2+0.5
23+10
mea n
: 1148+71
9.3+0.7
37+26
6002
6002A
358+47
9.1+0.4
45-11
6002A1
983+51
10.3+0.3
34+5
6002A2
869+47
9.9+0.3
58+6
6002A3
882+81
10.2+0.5
30+8
mean:
773+281
9.9+0.5
42+13
6003
6003A
e6,4-8
15.9+0.3
27+10
6003A1
395+54
9.6+0.4
28+6
6003A2
363+39
8.3+0.3 (257+12)**
6003A3
441+51
9.8+0.4
16+5
mean:
466-137 10.9+3.4
24+7
• Standard deviation of individual measurements based upon
counting statistics only. Standard deviation shown with
mean values based upon the spread of the four (or three)
individual measurements.
These two copper values excluded from the means as
probably due to contamination from the bullet jackets.
• •
• 1
N
Ci. 0
r-
V N
M
+
I
0
6!
• M
ea
21
to!
Sample Number
550 551
C
,ua E
C
+1 +1 W
I I
at 0
APPENDIX H
REFERENCES ON THE INAA OF BULLET LEAD
+I
of
I 2
N'
2
+I
o
+I
I a 0
0
!i2
a
2.
0 0
3.
7
C
z
ea 4.
+
i C‘e
I
I.
H.R. Lukens and V. P. Guinn, "Neutron Activation
Analysis of Bullet Lead", Trans. Amer. Nucl. Soc.,
10 (1967)66-67.
H. R. Lukens, 'Forensic Activation Analysis, Bullet
Lead', Trans. Amer. Nucl. Soc., 11 (1968) 80-61.
V. P. Guinn, "Forensic Activation Analysis as Applied
to the Work of the Coroner", Proc. Intl. Assocn. of
Coroners And Medical Examiners, 1967-1959, pages
151-164.
H. R. Lukens, H. L. Schlesinger, V. P. Guinn, and R.P.
Hackleman, "Forensic Neutron Activation Analysis of
Bullet -Lead Specimens", U. S. AEC Report GA-10141
(1970), 48 pages.
5.
H. R. Lukens and V. P. Guinn, "Comparison of Bullet-
Lead Specimens by Nondestructive Neutron Activation
Analysis", 3. Forensic Sciences, 16 (19711 301-308.
V. P. Guinn, "Applications of Nuclear Science in
Crime Investigation", chapter in Annual Review of
Nuclear Science (Vol. 24), edited by E. Segre (Annual
Reviews, Inc., Pala Alto, Calif., 1974, pages 561-591.
7.
V. P, Guinn and H. A. Purcell, 'A Very Rapid Instrumental
Neutron Activation Analysis Method for the Forensic
Comparison of Bullet-Lead Specimens', J. Radioanal.
N
0
a •
0
m +
1 E a.c
N
C
. • M
6
• +
>
0.-.
APPENDIX G
H
R ESULT
S
FRO M
SEPTEMBER
19 77
INA A O F
ANALYSIS
OF
WALKER
BULLET
FRAGMEN T AND
UNFIR ED
C. IRVINE MC CARTRIDGE AT
553
Mr. W
OL
F. M
r. Ch
airman
, I hav
e no
furth
er qu
estion
s of D
r. G
uinn. C
hairman ST
OK
ES. T
he Chair now
recognizes the gentleman from
Indiana, M
r. Fithian, for such tim
e as he may consum
e. M
r. Frrm
AN
. Thank you, M
r. Chairm
an. D
r. Gu
inn
, we are h
app
y to
hav
e yo
ur ex
pertise assistin
g th
e p
anel. I am
ho
ldin
g in
my
han
d a lead
pen
cil, and
I hav
e no
w
bro
ken
the p
oin
t from
this lead
pen
cil. Would
you tell m
e is this
enough for you to analyze by your process? D
r. GU
INN
. Well, that is a different kind of m
aterial. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. I know
. D
r. GuiN
N. It is called pencil lead; but it is actually graphite—
not lead. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. Sizew
ise? D
r. GurN
N. S
izewise, that is plenty. F
or materials such a bullet
lead, to
be sp
ecific, any sam
ple th
at weig
hs an
yw
here b
etween
1
and
50
millig
rams is su
fficient o
r plen
ty. S
uch
an am
ou
nt rep
re-sents a rather tiny sam
ple of lead, but it is all we need.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. Now
, if this were not graphite, and if it w
ere bullet lead
, and it co
ntain
ed a v
ariety o
f these elem
ents th
at you h
ave
describ
ed h
ere tod
ay, an
timo
ny
, silver, an
d so
forth
, wo
uld
yo
ur
neutron activation analysis sort out the count sufficiently accurate-ly to tell us w
hich elements are in that particle?
Dr. G
urN
N. It w
on't tell y
ou all th
e elemen
ts that m
ay b
e in
them
, bu
t it will u
sually
giv
e yo
u n
um
erical results fo
r a nu
mb
er of elem
ents th
at will b
ecom
e detectab
ly rad
ioactiv
e and read
ily
identified; yes. M
r. FrrH
ull. A
s I understan
d it, th
is is from
one p
ass thro
ugh
the eq
uip
men
t, simultan
eously
you read
out sev
eral differen
t ele-m
ents? D
r. Gum
- N. T
hat is true. Usually w
hen you activate a sample for
a certain len
gth
of tim
e in th
e reactor, w
ait a while, an
d th
en
cou
nt th
e samp
le, yo
u see p
eaks fro
m a n
um
ber o
f radio
active
elements. T
hen if you take the same sam
ple, if you wish, and do it
over again, but this time irradiate longer and w
ait longer, then all of the isotopes you saw
before you won't see this tim
e because you have w
aited long enough that they are all gone, and now you w
ill see som
e longerlived isotopes that were not there detectably before
but now they are.
So you don't usually just do an activation and a count once, but
you usually do it two or three tim
es, if you are trying to look for a large num
ber of elements.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. You used the term
counting equipment. C
ould you explain that for those of us w
ho are laymen in this?
Dr. G
uiN
N. T
here are m
any k
inds o
f radio
active d
etection d
e-vices w
hich are usually loosely called counters. The m
ost comm
on o
ne m
ost p
eop
le kn
ow
abo
ut is a G
eiger co
un
ter. If these sam
e sam
ples, after activ
ating
them
, had
been
held
near a G
eiger
counter, you would hear the G
eiger counter ticking away. U
nfortu-nately, the G
eiger counter is, No. 1, not very sensitive for gam
ma
radiatio
n, an
d. N
o. 2
, it can't tell o
ne g
amm
a ray fro
m an
oth
er. Y
ou have to go to a more elaborate detector. T
he kind, for exam-
ple, that was used by the F
BI in 1964, w
hich was the only useful
kind that was available then, w
as a scintillation detector. That is a
552
Chem., 39 (19771 95-91.
a. T
. Tzak
-Sira
n a
nd V
. P. G
uin
n, "A
naly
sis of
Meta
l
Frag
men
ts for lead
via th
e 20421, (n
,n,)204m
pb
Reaction", Trans. A
mer. N
ucl.. S
oc., 2
8 (1
578) 9
4.
9. N
. R. W
allis, V
. P
. G
uinn, and
M. A
. Purc
ell,
"Neu
tron A
ctivatio
n Analysis of Shotgun P
elle
ts",
Tran
s. Am
er. Nucl. S
ec., 2
8 (1
97
8) 9
3-9
4.
13.
V. P. Guinn an
d J. N
ich
ols, 'N
eu
tron
Activation
An
aly
sis of S
ulle
t-Laad
Sp
ecim
en
s; Th
e P
resid
en
t
Ken
ned
y A
ssassinatio
n", T
rans. A
mer. N
ucl. S
oc.,
28
(19
73
) 92
-93
.
11
. V
. P. G
uin
n. T
. izak-S
iran, a
nd M
. A. P
urc
ell,
"Detailed Measurements of Homogeneity of
Man
nlich
er-Carm
soc au
llets," to be submitted
for p
ublic
atio
n.
554
solid
detecto
r. it abso
rbs g
amm
a rays b
etter, so it is m
ore efficien
t, an
d also
the size o
f the o
utp
ut p
ulse fro
m th
e detecto
r is pro
por-
tional to
the g
amm
a ray en
ergy it h
as abso
rbed
. S
o w
ith su
ch a d
etector o
ne h
as the p
ossib
ility o
f usin
g w
hat w
e call a
multic
hannel a
naly
zer to
look a
t the o
utp
ut p
ulse
s, sort
them
into
their sizes, an
d g
et a spectru
m w
ith p
eaks.
Mr.
FIT
HIA
N.
The cu
rrent eq
uip
men
t is gen
erations rem
oved
fro
m th
e 19
64
equ
ipm
ent?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, sir. The old scintillation detectors are still useful
for so
me p
urp
oses, b
ut th
e difficu
lty is th
at in a sp
ectrum
obtain
ed
from
it, each o
f the p
eaks is ty
pically
abo
ut 2
0 tim
es wid
er than
th
e peak
s from
a modern
germ
aniu
m d
etector. W
e say th
at mean
s th
at the o
lder scin
tillation
detecto
r has v
ery p
oo
r energ
y reso
lu-
tion.
In th
e c
hart e
xam
ple
that sh
ow
s the silv
er-1
10
peak
, with
a
little antim
ony-1
24m
, peak
nex
t to it, fo
r exam
ple, w
ith a scin
til-latio
n d
etector all y
ou w
ould
see would
be o
ne b
road
peak
that
inclu
ded
both
of th
em, an
d y
ou w
ould
n't k
now
that y
ou really
were
lookin
g at tw
o g
amm
a rays, o
f two d
ifferent en
ergies.
The g
erman
ium
detecto
r, the m
ore m
odern
type, w
hich
wasn
't av
ailable g
enerally
in 1
96
4, is a h
igh
-resolu
tion
detecto
r. it is of a
new
gen
eration o
f detecto
rs, and th
at was really
one o
f the p
rimary
reaso
ns fo
r wan
ting
to rean
alyze th
ese samp
les, bu
t no
w w
ith
much
more m
odern
equip
men
t. M
r. F
ITH
IAN
. Ju
st for th
e re
co
rd, b
efo
re I a
sk th
e a
dd
ition
al
qu
estion
s, in y
ou
r answ
er to co
un
sel Wo
lfs qu
estion
yo
u u
sed th
e p
hrase th
at the W
CC
Man
nlich
er-Carcan
o b
ullets w
ere mad
e of
un
hard
ened
lead. Y
ou
were referrin
g o
nly
to th
e lead co
re and
no
t to
the h
arden
ed co
pper jack
et? D
r. GulatN
. That is co
rrect. The sp
ecifications fo
r those b
ullets
were th
at they
were to
be m
ade o
f No. 0
soft lead
, unhard
ened
, th
at was at least 9
9.8
5 p
ercent lead
. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. O
ne o
f the m
ost serio
us q
uestio
ns facin
g th
e pan
el is th
e id
en
tificatio
n o
f the "p
ristine" b
ulle
t with
the fra
gm
en
t tak
en fro
m G
ov
erno
r Co
nn
ally, in
the w
rist wo
un
d area. I realize
the im
po
rtance o
f yo
ur co
nclu
sion
that th
e fragm
ents rem
ov
ed
du
ring
the su
rgery
from
Go
vern
or C
on
nally
's wrist w
ere from
the
"pristin
e" b
ulle
t, and I re
aliz
e th
e d
ifficulty
of sa
yin
g y
ou a
re
abso
lutely
certain to
the ex
clusio
n o
f all oth
er possib
ilities, but I
am w
onderin
g if y
ou co
uld
go an
y fu
rther th
an y
ou h
ave, in
terms
of certain
ty o
f the co
mpariso
n o
f those tw
o sp
ecimen
s? D
r. G
UIN
N. I d
on't th
ink th
at I c
an in
the se
nse
of p
uttin
g a
p
ercent p
rob
ability
or so
meth
ing
like th
at. All I can
say is th
at th
ose tw
o sp
ecimen
s. CE
-399 an
d 8
42, ag
ree so clo
sely in
their
antim
ony co
ncen
tration an
d th
eir silver co
ncen
trations th
at I could
n
ot d
isting
uish
on
e from
. the o
ther. H
ow
ever. I can
clearly d
istin-
guish
those tw
o fro
m th
e ether th
ree specim
ens. T
hey
are differen
t. T
hey
are still WC
C M
annlich
er-Carcan
os; b
ut th
ey rep
resent a
differen
t WC
C M
annlich
er-Carcan
o b
ullet.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. An
d so
it is yo
ur testim
on
y th
at it is very
un
likely
:h
at these w
ere fragm
ents fro
m tw
o d
ifferent b
ullets?
Dr. G
UIN
N. It w
ou
ld b
e extrem
ely u
nlik
ely. Y
ou
can im
agin
e that
certainly
there are so
me W
CC
Man
niich
er-Carcan
o b
ullets th
at are o
f essentially
the sam
e com
po
sition
. and
hen
ce that th
e pristin
e
555
bullet m
ight b
e one b
ullet th
at just h
appen
ed to
hav
e the sam
e co
mp
ositio
n as a d
ifferent b
ullet th
at fractured
the w
rist, for ex
am-
ple, b
ut it is v
ery, v
ery u
nlik
ely.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. But the scientific term
that you used, is it extreme-
ly u
nlik
ely?
Dr. G
uiana. Extrem
ely unlikely, or very improbable, how
ever you p
refer. M
r. FiT
HIA
N. T
o y
our k
now
ledge, h
as any o
ther scien
tist to d
ate lin
ked
the so
-called p
ristine b
ullet to
the in
juries?
Dr. G
UIN
N. N
ot that I am aw
are of; no. M
r. Frrin
AN
. Eq
ually
imp
ortan
t, as yo
ur co
nclu
sion
s con
cernin
g
Go
vern
or C
on
nally
's wrist in
juries an
d th
e "pristin
e" bu
llet, is the
second co
nclu
sion y
ou m
ake, an
d th
at is that th
ere is no ev
iden
ce of a th
ird, fo
urth
, or fifth
bullet rep
resented
in an
y o
f the frag
-m
ents th
at you tested
? D
r. GuIN
N. T
hat is correct. M
r. Frrin
ata. And th
erefore, it is h
ighly
likely
—is th
at the term
y
ou
used
to M
r. Wo
lf—th
at all fragm
ents tested
match
up
with
two
b
ullets an
d tw
o b
ullets o
nly
? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, sir. T
he o
ther th
ree samp
les that w
e hav
e been
referrin
g to
—o
ne b
eing
the frag
men
ts recov
ered fro
m P
residen
t K
enned
y's b
rain, an
d th
en tw
o d
ifferent g
roups o
f particles fo
und
on th
e floor o
f the lim
ousin
e—th
ose th
ree specim
ens are in
distin
-guish
able fro
m o
ne an
oth
er, but m
arked
ly d
ifferent fro
m C
E-3
99
and
84
2. S
o th
ere is on
ly ev
iden
ce for th
e presen
ce of tw
o d
ifferent
bu
llets. M
r. Frrzn
AN
. I understan
d th
at the W
arren C
om
missio
n d
id
emissio
n sp
ectrograp
hy tests o
n m
any o
f the sam
e items y
ou h
ave
tested w
ith n
eutro
n activ
ation an
alysis. H
ow
does th
e neu
tron
activatio
n an
alysis p
rocess, ju
st in b
rief laym
an's term
s, differ, an
d
wh
at are the ad
van
tages o
r disad
van
tages o
f the tw
o m
etho
ds o
f testin
g?
Dr. G
UIN
N. W
ell, they
hav
e som
e similarities an
d th
ey h
ave
som
e differen
ces. Th
ey are b
oth
meth
od
s of elem
ental an
alysis.
Th
ey w
ill bo
th d
etect do
wn
into
wh
at we call th
e trace elemen
t ran
ge, ap
pro
achin
g p
arts per m
illion, let's say
, and th
ey w
ill both
detect a n
um
ber o
f elemen
ts more o
r less simultan
eously
in th
e specim
ens. N
ow
, wh
ere they
differ is th
at for m
ost elem
ents, at least, w
e can
detect m
uch
low
er con
centratio
ns b
y activ
ation
analy
sis. In o
ther
word
s, activatio
n an
alysis is m
ore sen
sitive fo
r most elem
ents.
Wh
at is perh
aps ev
en m
ore im
po
rtant, th
ou
gh
, is that activ
ation
an
alysis, w
hen
it measu
res som
ethin
g, m
easures it v
ery q
uan
tita-tively. E
mission spectrography does not.
I hav
e a cop
y o
f all of th
e FB
I raw d
ata from
tho
se measu
re-m
ents, an
d th
ey list th
ings lik
e mag
nesiu
m, a trace; ch
rom
ium
, a very
slight trace; an
d th
ings lik
e that. N
o n
um
bers. S
o y
ou can
't m
ake an
y k
ind o
f quan
titative co
mpariso
ns b
y lo
okin
g at in
form
a-tio
n o
f that so
rt. And th
e remain
ing d
ifference is th
at the em
ission
spectro
grap
hic m
etho
d is d
estructiv
e. Yo
u n
orm
ally w
ou
ld lik
e to
hav
e abo
ut 1
0 m
illigram
s of sam
pies, w
hich
isn't a g
reat deal. b
ut
that 1
0 m
illigram
s is totally
consu
med
, it is vap
orized
and it is
gone. wh
ereas th
e way
we an
alyze b
ullet-lead
samp
les. at least, and
• v. a
556
man
y o
ther k
inds. b
y activ
ation an
alysis, th
e meth
od is n
onde-
structive. T
hese sam
e samples I an
alyzed
, if som
ebody d
idn't ag
ree with
the num
bers, they could come back and do them
all over again on the sam
e specimens.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. Your results then could be verified by others?
Dr. G
utx
x. Y
es, sir, all the sam
ples I activ
ated an
d an
alyzed
w
ere turn
ed rig
ht b
ack o
ver to
the A
rchiv
es, and
they
are righ
t back there, and they could be reanalyzed.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. Dr. G
uin
n. th
is is not m
eant to
be an
embarrassin
g
questio
n, b
ut I th
ink I m
ust ask
it. Mr. C
hairm
an, a recen
t article in
the N
ew T
imes m
agazin
e stated th
at yo
u h
ad w
ork
ed fo
r the
Warren C
omm
ission and, therefore, your conclusions for this com-
mittee w
ould be implicitly biased.
Did
you ev
en w
ork
for th
e Warren
Com
missio
n o
r work
for th
e F
BI in
connectio
n w
ith th
e analy
sis of th
ese evid
ence sam
ples?
Dr. G
UIN
N. N
either one. I think Mr. W
olf called my attention to
the existence of this article, which I haven't seen, and I don't know
w
here th
ey g
ot th
eir misin
form
ation, b
ut I n
ever d
id an
yth
ing fo
r the W
arren Com
mission, and although I know
people in the FB
I, I have never done any w
ork for them.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. Bu
t it is correct, isn
't it, that th
e Warren
Co
mm
is-sio
n h
ad th
e FB
I perfo
rm n
eutro
n activ
ation an
alysis m
easure-
ments on the bullet-lead specim
ens in 1964? D
r. GU
INN
. Yes, sir.
Mr. F
rraux. How
did you find this out? D
r. GU
INN
. Well, it w
as rather interesting because both Dr. John
Nich
ols an
d I felt th
at activatio
n an
alysis o
f the b
ullet-lead
speci-
men
s in th
e Presid
ent K
enned
y case sh
ould
be d
one, an
d h
e in
particu
lar was try
ing to
persu
ade J. E
dgar H
oover, first, an
d later
Claren
ce Kelley
, that th
ese thin
gs sh
ou
ld b
e do
ne. H
e mad
e no
progress w
ith them, an
d th
en q
uite accid
entally
there tu
rned
up in
th
e Arch
ives a letter fro
m J. E
dg
ar Ho
ov
er to J. L
ee Ran
kin
, in
July
19
64
, stating
that in
deed
the F
BI h
ad m
ade activ
ation
analy
-sis m
easurements on these sam
ples. Until then, this fact w
as total-ly unknow
n to us, so, therefore, after that we requested the results,
becau
se, the letter d
idn
't giv
e any
nu
merical resu
lts; it just said
th
at the an
alyses h
ad b
een d
one an
d th
e results w
ere gen
erally
inco
nclu
sive. T
his ag
ain to
ok
qu
ite som
e time, an
d it w
as on
ly
finally
, under th
e amen
ded
Freed
om
of In
form
ation A
ct, that D
r. N
ichols w
as able to
obtain
the so
me 7
0 p
ages o
f raw d
ata copied
out o
f the F
BI reco
rds, fro
m th
e FB
I. I then
took all o
f those d
ata and recalculated them
from scratch.
Mr. F
ri-aux
. I wan
t to co
me b
ack to
that d
ata in ju
st a mo
men
t; becau
se I thin
k it is v
ery, v
ery, im
po
rtant fo
r us to
explo
re that
with you, but let m
e ask, i prior to doing that, do you know w
hy the existence of these tests w
as never divulged until recently? D
r. GU
INN
. No; I certainly don't know
why. I can just speculate.
The letter states th
at—if I m
ay ju
st read th
is one last little sh
ort
sentence in it—th
is is from
J. Edgar H
oover to
the W
arren C
om
-m
ission. It states: W
hile
min
or va
riatio
n%
in co
mpositio
n w
en. fo
un
d b
y this m
eth
od. th
ese
were
not
, ansu
rvpiv d
iffere
ntia
ting in
vine,th
e ia
nte
r ou
tlet
557
fragm
ents a
nd th
us p
ositive
ly dete
rmin
ing fro
m w
hich
of th
e la
rger b
ulle
t frag-
ments a
ny g
iven sm
all le
ad fra
gm
ent m
ay h
ave
com
e.
I believe probably that the FB
I and the Warren C
omm
ission both felt th
at this d
idn't p
rove an
yth
ing, in
their o
pin
ion, an
d, th
ere-fore, didn't need to be noted.
Sin
ce we h
ad b
een ask
ing th
em fo
r quite so
metim
e to p
erform
su
ch an
alyses, w
e rather th
ou
gh
t it wo
uld
hav
e been
nice if th
ey
had
told
us, in
stead o
f our ev
entu
ally fin
din
g o
ut accid
entally
. M
r. Frraux. M
r. Chairm
an, I would like the record to show
that th
e witn
ess, Dr. G
uin
n, w
as readin
g th
e last parag
raph o
f a letter from
J. Edgar H
oover to J. Lee R
ankin, the General C
ounsel to the P
resident's Com
mission, the so-called W
arren Com
mission, dated
July 8, 1964, and delivered by courier service. I would ask that the
entire letter b
e mad
e a part o
f this ex
hib
it as JFK
exhib
it No.
F-332. C
hairman S
TO
KE
S. W
ithout objection, it may be entered into the
record. [T
he above referred to JFK
exhibit No. F
-332 follows:]
a .•
a
558
UN
ITE
:0 ST
AT
ES
DE
PA
RT
ME
NT
OF
JUS
TIC
E ,
r coE
rst suu
mA
u o
r tsrEsT
icAT
[es • s
W•1
11
.1C
TO
M
we
m
By C
ou
rie
r S
ervic
e E
. 2
W •
a =
Ju
ly 8
, 19
64
Ro
no
rab
la J
. Lee R
an
kin
G
enera
l Co
un
sel T
he P
resid
ea
t's Co
mm
ission
2
00
liary
lan
d A
ven
ue, N
orth
east'
Yar."
4ial.co=,
D. C
.
Doer ;Ir. R
an
kin
:
As p
revio
usly
rep
orte
d to
the C
om
missio
n, c
erta
in
small le
ad
meta
l fragm
en
ts un
covered
in c
on
nectio
n w
ith th
is m
atte
r T
erse
an
aly
zed
spectr
og
ra
ph
ica
lly to
dete
rm
ine w
heth
er
they c
ou
ld b
e a
ssocia
ted
with
on
e o
r m
ore o
f the le
ad
bu
llet
fragm
en
ts an
d n
o sig
nific
an
t diffe
ren
ces w
ere fo
un
d w
ithin
th
e se
nsitiv
ity o
f the sp
ectr
ograp
hic
neth
od
.
Beca
use
of th
e h
igh
er se
nsitiv
ity o
f th
e n
eu
tron
activ
atio
n tn
elY
sls, certa
in o
f the sm
all le
ad
fragm
en
ts were
Th
ee su
bje
cte
d to
neu
tron
activ
atio
n a
naly
ses a
nd
com
pariso
ns
vita
the la
rger b
ulle
t fragm
en
ts. Th
e ite
ms a
naly
zed
inclu
ded
th
e fo
llow
ing
: Cl - b
ulle
t Iro
n str
etc
her; C
2 - fr
ag
men
t fro
m
fro
st sea
t cu
shio
n; C
4 an
d C
S - m
eta
l fra
gm
en
ts fro
m P
resid
en
t K
en
ned
y's h
ead
; C9 - n
ata
l fragm
en
t from
the a
rm
of G
overn
or
Co
nn
elly
; C1
6 - n
ata
l fragmen
ts from
rear flo
or b
oard
carp
et
of th
e c
ar.
,a1 -a6 C
a'ra-a. W
hile
min
or v
aria
tion
s in c
ocg
ositio
n w
ere fo
un
d b
y
:his m
eth
od
, these
were n
ot c
on
sidered
suffic
ien
t to p
erm
it 1,a
sittray d
ifferen
tiatin
g a
mon
g th
e la
rger b
ulle
t fragzen
ts A
nd
Th
us p
ositiv
ely
dete
rm
inin
g Ir
on
Th
igh
of th
e la
rger b
ulle
t fra
gm
ents a
ny g
iven
small'Id
ad
fragm
ent m
ay h
av
e Com
e.
.Sin
cerely
nw
s,
JFK
EX
HIB
IT F
-332
559
Dr. G
urm
i. May
I com
men
t—I w
ill giv
e yo
u th
is cop
y o
f the
letter—but it does have stam
ped on it, which of course w
asn't th
ere originally, John N
ichols stamp w
hen he received it, in Novem
ber 1
97
3, an
d h
e also w
rote in
him
self on
e little han
dw
ritten lin
e. T
hose were not in original, but otherw
ise it is a copy of the original letter.
Mr. F
rrinat4
. So, fo
r the reco
rd, th
en, th
e han
dw
ritten n
otatio
n
between paragraphs tw
o and three, which read "H
e did not exam-
ine the copper, zinc jackets and fragments, "
was w
ritten b
y P
rof.
John N
ichols an
d w
ere not a p
art of th
e orig
inal letter w
hen
we
received it? D
r. GU
INN
. I guess that was John N
ichols little note from him
to m
e that h
e put in
there.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. With regard to that im
portant paragraph that says. "T
hese are inconclusive," I w
ould like now to ask you, D
r. Guinn, if
you could tell us what your findings w
ere when you looked at the
same 7
0 p
ages o
f raw d
ata, and
prio
r to th
at, are yo
u aw
are or d
o
you know w
ho and how this neutron activation analysis w
ork was
done an
d w
heth
er this w
as a com
mon p
ractice of th
e FB
I or ju
st how
this came about?
Dr. G
inral. Y
es, I hav
e sub
sequ
ently
fou
nd
ou
t mo
st of th
e details of it. T
he FB
I work w
as done in May 1964, at w
hich time
the F
BI lab
orato
ry h
ad n
ot d
one an
y p
rior activ
ation an
alysis
work
, so far as I am
aware. B
ut in
the sam
e elemen
tal analy
sis group, w
here such work w
ould normally fall, they asked M
r Jack G
allagher (John F. G
allagher) of their staff, whom
I know, to take
these bullet lead specimens dow
n to the Oak R
idge National L
abo-ratory.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. To w
here? D
r. GU
INN
. To the O
ak Ridge N
ational Laboratory, in O
ak Ridge,
Ten
n., w
here th
ey h
ave all th
e nuclear facilities, an
d so
on, th
ey
are qu
ite go
od
, and
they
do
a lot o
f activatio
n an
alysis w
ork
, alth
ough n
ot u
sually
connected
with
crime in
vestig
ation, b
ut fo
r other purposes. H
e took the samples dow
n there. T
wo o
f the p
eople d
ow
n th
ere, who w
ere hig
hly
conversan
t in
activatio
n an
alysis, b
ut n
ot in
foren
sic wo
rk, an
d M
r. Gallag
her,
who w
as highly conversant in forensic work but not in activation
analysis work, w
orked together. He actually did all of the m
easure-m
ents, but with the tw
o Oak R
idge people showing him
how to do
it and
ho
w to
calculate th
e results, et cetera, sin
ce this really
was
his first experience in this field. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. A
re you saying this was the first neutron activation
analysis work done by the F
BI?
Dr. G
unill. So far as I am
aware, it w
as; yes. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. T
his is the first that they had ever done? D
r. G
UIN
N.
Tw
o y
ears later, in 1
966, th
ey set u
p a reg
ular
activation analysis group in the FB
I laboratory, which it still oper-
ates. Bu
t at that tim
e, it was th
eir first, direct co
ntact w
ith th
e m
ethod, I believe. A
t any rate, Jack Gallagher. in a period of som
e days there. did g
o ah
ead an
d an
alyze th
e samp
les. and
he calcu
lated th
e results.
and he obtained a lot of numerical results.
• 1. *
•
560
When
I obtain
ed all o
f these d
ata and w
ent th
rough th
e calcula-
tions, m
y in
itial reaction w
as pretty
much
the sam
e as theirs, o
r his. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. T
hat is, it was inconclusive?
Dr. G
UIN
N. T
he numbers appeared to bounce everyw
here. Any
on
e samp
le just d
idn
't seem to
be co
nsisten
t. To
just p
ick an
ex
amp
le here, fo
r one p
articular sp
ecimen
, one tim
e he m
easured
it, and found it to be 977 parts per m
illion antimony. A
nother time
he m
easured
it, but th
e result w
as only
676. T
he n
um
bers ju
st bounced around.
He m
easured
each sam
ple a n
um
ber o
f times u
nder so
mew
hat
differen
t con
ditio
ns, b
ut th
is sho
uld
n't m
ake an
y d
ifference, y
ou
sh
ould
get essen
tially th
e same n
um
ber ev
ery tim
e, merely
som
e-w
hat d
ifferent w
ith u
ncertain
ties. My in
itial reaction w
as thus,
exactly
the sam
e as his. A
t that tim
e I just w
ent th
rough all o
f the
data quickly and initially could not make any sense of it. I conclud-
ed th
ey h
ad d
one carefu
l work
, in g
eneral, b
ut it so
meh
ow
did
n't
make sense. T
hen
I did
my o
wn an
alyses h
ere and fo
und v
ery d
efinitely
that
the sam
ples fell in
to th
e two g
roups, tw
o b
ullets, so
then
I asked
m
y self, as far as I k
now
, even
though th
ey h
ad m
ore an
tiquated
eq
uip
men
t at that tim
e, these an
alyses w
ere done w
ell, why can
't you get the sam
e results out of their data, and I went back through
a second tim
e, and in
a very
detailed
way
, and I tried
a little bit
differen
t appro
ach, an
d I th
ink I fig
ured
out fin
ally w
hat w
as w
rong with their original w
ork, which they w
ere not aware of and
I wasn
't initially
either.
If you tak
e the n
um
bers th
at they
obtain
ed o
n th
e whole g
roup
of sam
ples an
d y
ou o
nly
look at th
em u
nder o
ne set o
f measu
re-m
ent conditions, that is, you don't look at all the conditions for the m
om
ent, b
ut ju
st loo
k at o
ne set o
f con
ditio
ns, to
and
beh
old
, it is ex
actly th
e same resu
lt. ' M
r. FIT
HIA
N. T
he same result as w
hat? D
r. GU
INN
. As w
hat I found in my ow
n measurem
ents. M
r. FrrH
IAN
. How
do you mean?
Dr. G
UIN
N. C
E-3
99 m
atches C
E-8
42 in
each o
f the fo
ur sets o
f co
nditio
ns th
at he u
sed, an
d th
e oth
er three sp
ecimen
s match
one
another and are different from the other tw
o every time. B
ut if you lo
ok at all th
e num
bers at o
nce, ev
eryth
ing is v
aryin
ek m
uch
you
don't g
et the p
icture at all. B
ut o
nce y
ou so
rt them
out th
is way
then the sam
e result comes out as w
hat I obtained—a little fuzzier
picture of course, because his detector didn't have the sharp resolu-tion of the m
odern germanium
detector. But, of course, hindsight is
much
better th
an fo
resight. I d
idn't g
et this o
ut o
f his d
ata either
until after I had my ow
n data. In a sense it is confirming.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. Are you testifying then, D
r. Guinn, that a m
ore in-dep
th read
ing o
f the 1
964 n
eutro
n activ
ation an
alysis d
ata would
hav
e led eq
ually
trained
; scientists to
the co
nclu
sion th
at there
were in
fact fragm
ents fro
m o
nly
two
bu
llets that w
ere tested?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es; the data were there but they w
ere not interpret-ed as far as they could have been taken.
Mr. F
irsnAN
. Using the charts that you provided the com
mittee.
and they have been previously admitted into evidence, w
ould you
561
just briefly summ
arize for me how
the readings of your equipment
mig
ht b
e more accu
rate, more sp
ecific, than
those o
f the F
BI?
Let m
e see if I can understand this as a layman. A
s I understand th
e pro
cess, what y
ou d
o is y
ou tak
e a particle o
f som
ethin
g an
d
you p
ut it in
som
e kin
d o
f little—
Dr. G
UIN
N. C
ontainer. M
r. FIT
HIA
N [continuing]. C
ontainer. And you put that inside the
nuclear reacto
r and y
ou b
om
bard
it with
trillions o
f neu
trons p
er second?
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es, sir. M
r. FrrH
IAN
. And th
en y
ou rem
ove it fro
m th
e reactor, an
d in
so
me tim
e frame th
ereafter, the u
nstab
le atom
ic nuclei th
at hav
e been
created, each
by th
e abso
rptio
n o
f a neu
tron, fro
m th
e extra
neutrons that you have bombarded the sam
ple with, undergo radio-
active decay, with the em
ission of gamm
a rays of characteristic, or identifying energies. A
m I roughly correct?
Dr. G
uiNN
. Yes, each radioactive nucleus that undergoes disinte-
gratio
n, w
hich
it decid
es on its o
wn to
do, sp
ontan
eously
, in th
e typical case em
its a beta particle of some energy (w
hich turns out not to
be v
ery u
seful to
measu
re, for d
etailed reaso
ns), b
ut it also
usually em
its one or sometim
es two or three different gam
ma rays,
gam
ma ray
s of d
ifferent en
ergies. T
hose w
e can m
easure m
uch
m
ore easily
and ex
actly, an
d so
those are th
e ones w
e look fo
r. T
he decay of one nucleus may just give one gam
ma-ray photon.
At b
est it would
giv
e one co
unt o
n th
at counter. S
o w
hat w
e are looking at, of course, are thousands or m
illions of these disintegrat-ing nuclei, and w
e accumulate the results. T
he detector is capable of d
istinguish
ing b
etween
gam
ma ray
s of d
ifferent en
ergies, an
d
they show up in our spectra as peaks.
Whether you are looking for it or not, for exam
ple, if somebody
gave me a sam
ple and I didn't know it had any antim
ony in it, if I activ
ated it an
d lo
oked
at it under eith
er of th
ose co
nditio
ns an
d
saw that peak, at 564 keV
, I would know
that the sample contained
antimony.
Mr. F
rrHIA
N. T
he antimony peak w
ill always com
e at the same
part of the spectrum?
Dr. G
ursrsr. That is right, that is the characteristic; yes.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. And, therefore, w
ithout any knowledge of w
hat is in
it, if you see a p
eak in
that fram
e of n
um
bers, it h
as to b
e antim
ony? D
r. Gum
s .. That is right.
Mr.
FrrH
IAN
. A
nd th
en th
e heig
ht o
f the p
eak in
dicates th
e quantity?
Dr. G
UIN
N. It is proportional to it. W
e usually measure the area
of th
e peak
instead
of its height, because the p
eaks aren
't quite
symm
etrical, but otherwise you are right.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. You h
ave said
this w
hole p
rocess th
at you g
o
through does not destroy the material, is that correct?
Dr. G
UIN
N. T
hat is correct. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. N
ow, then; did you test exactly the sam
e particles that the F
BI tested in 1964?
Dr. G
UIN
N. W
ell, it turns out I did not, for reasons I don't know.
because as they did the analysis, they did not destroy the samples
either.
562
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. So? D
r. G
UIN
N.
The p
articular little p
ieces that th
ey an
alyzed
, I co
uld
just as w
ell hav
e analy
zed o
ver ag
ain, b
ut th
e pieces th
at w
ere brought out from the A
rchives—w
hich reportedly, according to
Mr. G
ear, were th
e on
ly b
ullet-lead
fragm
ents fro
m th
is case still p
resent in
the A
rchiv
es—d
id n
ot in
clud
e any
of th
e specific
little pieces that the FB
I had analyzed. P
resumably those are in existence som
ewhere, I am
sure nobody threw
them out, but w
here they are, I have no idea. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. A
nd the 1964 equipment w
ouldn't have consumed
them either?
Dr. G
uam. N
o. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. W
hat w
as the state o
f the k
now
ledge at th
at time
in term
s of sto
ring
radio
active m
aterials? Wo
uld
there h
ave b
een
any p
rosp
ect that so
meo
ne n
ot ad
equately
info
rmed
, such
as per-
hap
s the F
BI at th
at time o
r law in
forcem
ent p
eople, w
ould
hav
e been
a little leery ab
out k
eepin
g rad
ioactiv
e materials in
their
files? D
r. GU
INN
. I wo
uld
n't th
ink
so. I am
sure b
y th
at time th
ey
knew
enough ab
out th
e safety asp
ects that, co
nsid
ering th
e very
sm
all size of samples w
e are dealing with here, and the very sm
all am
oun
t of rad
ioactiv
ity in
them
, they
wo
uld
hav
e righ
tly co
nsid
-ered them
to be perfectly harmless. A
lso, the little activity in them
soon decayed out. M
r. Frrx
isst. So
, finally
, it is yo
ur co
nclu
sion
that d
espite w
hat
Mr. H
oover said to Mr. R
ankin, the FB
I data are not really incon-clusive, though it appeared to be so to you initially?
Dr. G
UIN
N. T
hat is rig
ht, th
e data really
were fu
nd
amen
tally
better th
an th
ey th
ought, o
r than
I initially
thought.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. The reason I raise that issue, D
r. Guinn, is this. A
s I understand the critical literature, it falls into tw
o categories with
regard to this question. Earlier on, the critics said that the W
arren C
omm
ission was afraid to do the neutron activation analysis m
ea-su
remen
ts becau
se if they
did
it, it would
show
som
eting o
ther
than
the sin
gle b
ullet th
eory
and th
ereby w
ould
underm
ine th
e entire W
arren Com
mission findings. T
his charge was m
ade in sev-eral p
laces in th
e literature, an
d I h
ave sev
eral exam
ples h
ere to
that effect, namely, that the reason for their not doing the neutron
activatio
n an
alysis w
ork
at that tim
e was th
e fear sgi th
e part o
f the B
ureau that it would show
someting other than a single bullet
theo
ry, th
at is, the frag
men
ts from
Co
nn
ally's w
rist and
the "p
ris-tin
e" bu
llet sample w
ould
turn
ou
t to b
e two
differen
t bullets.
Dr. G
UIN
N. Y
es. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. In post-1973 literature, after the F
reedom of Infor-
mation A
ct episode to which you refer, the critics have said that it
was done, but w
ith inconclusive results, and since the results were
inconclusive, it did not pi-ove that they were from
the same bullet,
and, therefore, the publication or the publishing of the results were
suppressed
becau
sed it aid
not su
pport th
e single b
ullet th
eory
. T
hat is th
e reason
I raised th
e questio
n sp
ecifically ab
out th
e F
BI d
ata and
abo
ut y
ou
r analy
sis or in
terpretatio
n o
f their d
ata. D
r. G
uiss.
I d
on
t kn
ow
any
thin
g ab
ou
t any
of th
e peo
ples
involved motives but w
hat I do know is that indeed in 1964 the F
BI
did
do
the an
alyses an
d acco
rdin
g to
this letter th
at we ju
st intro
-
563
duced
into
evid
ence, th
ey d
id n
ot ap
pear -to
be ab
le to d
raw an
y
conclusions from the num
bers. L
ooking at them m
any years later, I can see why that w
ould be po
ssibly
the case, b
ut as I say
, with
the ad
van
tage o
f these n
ew
results to
guid
e me in
the rig
ht d
irection o
f how
to statistically
treat th
e data th
ey h
ad g
otten
earlier, lo an
d b
eho
ld, th
ey v
ery
defin
itely d
id ag
ree, with
my m
ore recen
t findin
gs fro
m m
y o
wn
measurem
ents, using more pow
erful equipment.
Mr. F
rraisis. No
w, is th
ere any
evid
ence, in
either th
e FB
I interpretation of the test results of 1964 or in your ow
n interpreta-tion of the tests for this com
mittee, that w
ould support the specula-tion that the "pristine" bullet and the one that hit C
onnally's wrist
are two sep
arate bullets? Is th
ere any ev
iden
ce in eith
er report?
Dr. G
UIN
N. N
o, th
ere is no ev
iden
ce either in
my w
ork
or th
e previous F
BI w
ork of that. You cannot distinguish one specim
en fro
m th
e oth
er, from
the an
alytical resu
lts. Bo
th m
y fin
din
gs an
d
the earlier FB
I findings give this same result.
Mr.
FTT
ITIA
N. G
oin
g fro
m th
is conclu
sion, co
uld
the F
BI h
ave
been able to draw the conclusion of only tw
o bullets being present if so
meo
ne, an
yone th
ere, did
not h
ave th
e kin
d o
f expertise in
W
CC
Mannlicher-C
arcano amm
unition that you have testified or that w
e understand you possess? Would som
eone not familiar w
ith that kind of am
munition—
could they have drawn the right conclu-
sion? D
r. G
UIN
N. It w
ou
ld h
ave b
een certain
ly m
uch
mo
re difficu
lt becau
se, as I say, m
ost k
inds o
f amm
unitio
n, o
ther k
inds th
at we
hav
e loo
ked
at ov
er years, h
ave b
een so
un
iform
that y
ou
can't
tell—y
ou
literally can
no
t tell on
e bu
llet from
ano
ther o
ut o
f the
same box.
WC
C M
annlicher-Carcano bullet lead, how
ever, is different. The
concentration range from bullet-to-bullet is trem
endous. For exam
-ple, o
ut o
f the sam
e box, o
ne b
ullet m
ay o
nly
hav
e 20 p
arts per
millio
n an
timo
ny
, the n
ext o
ne y
ou
take o
ut o
f the b
ox
mig
ht b
e 1,200 parts per m
illion antimony, and each of these values can be
measured quite precisely. A
ctually, when Jack G
allagher did these measurem
ents, he also analyzed a couple of know
n WC
C M
annlicher-Carcano bullets, just
as background samples: O
ne from lot 6,000, one from
lot 6,003, but th
at is all. Th
at is no
t mu
ch o
f a back
gro
un
d to
loo
k at; b
ut su
re en
ou
gh
, tho
se two
, just th
e two
that h
e loo
ked
at were q
uite
different from one another—
one was about 90—
I have the numbers
somew
here here but not handy—one w
as like 90 parts per million
antim
ony an
d th
e oth
er one w
as som
ethin
g lik
e 700 p
arts per
million. S
o ev
en th
e two
samp
les he h
app
end
ed to
pick
as back
gro
un
d
samples im
mediately show
ed the same thing regarding w
hich we
have much m
ore data. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. S
o is it your testimony, then, or is it your estim
ate that the F
BI's failure to correctly interpret the 1964 data, w
hich is so
distu
rbin
g to
so m
any
peo
ple—
wo
uld
the F
BI h
ave h
ad th
e k
no
wled
ge an
d ex
perien
ce in 1
96
4 to
correctly
interp
ret the re-
sults? D
r. Gu
inn
. Well, it is a little h
ard to
say. I th
ink
they
mig
ht
have been able to, but I think it might have been m
ore difficult for
564
them
to at th
at time sin
ce they
did
n't h
ave an
exten
sive b
ack-
ground in activation analysis or interpretation of such results, and th
ey d
idn
't hav
e any
exp
erience w
ith W
CC
Man
nlich
er-Carcan
o
amm
unitio
n, eith
er. For th
at matter, in
1964
I did
n't h
ave an
y
experience with this kind of bullet lead either.
Mr. F
rrmata. W
e must, I think, M
r. Chairm
an, clarify one thing for the record.
Dr. G
uin
n, is y
ou
r interp
retation
of th
e FB
I data b
ased o
n th
e inform
ation you obtained through the FB
I, as opposed to any secret or otherw
ise restricted data you obtained through this comm
ittee? D
r. GU
INN
. No. Y
ou are only referring to the FB
I data? M
r. FIT
HIA
N. Y
es. D
r. GU
INN
. No; th
e FB
I data th
at I hav
e, copies o
f all the raw
d
ata that Jack
Gallag
her g
ot, w
ere ob
tained
actually
no
t even
by
m
e; they
were o
btain
ed b
y D
r. John N
ichols fro
m th
e FB
I under
the Freedom
of Information A
ct, and then turned over to me; since
Dr. N
ichols is not an activation analyst. He didn't know
what to do
with
such
secialized d
ata—his ex
pertise is in
the field
of fo
rensic
pathology. M
r. FIT
HIA
N. T
herefore any information that has been published
either by him or by you no w
ay falls under any restrictions, is that correct?
Dr. G
UIN
N. N
o, none of this is restricted information.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. One final line of questioning, D
r. Guinn, and I w
ill su
bsid
e. Hav
e we d
one, h
ave y
ou d
one—
as far as your ex
pert
knowledge is concerned, have w
e done all the tests that are possi-ble to
ascertain th
e num
er of b
ullets th
at the frag
men
ts came
from? Is there anything else that w
e should do? D
r. GU
INN
. One can alw
ays think of other analytical methods, et
cetera, that might show
up some elem
ents that were not detectable
by activation analysis, or you can even—using activation analysis
go to the destructive forin of the method, but then you destroy the
samples. I am
sure that is not desirable. I w
ould
not reco
mm
end an
y fu
rther an
alytical stu
dies at th
e presen
t time. I th
ink th
at the fin
din
gs th
at we h
ave are p
retty
defin
itive an
d m
ost o
ther th
ing
s that o
ne can
thin
k o
f that y
ou
co
uld
try o
n th
e samples m
ight o
r mig
ht n
ot ad
d so
me ad
ditio
nal
information. It is questionable. A
nd most of those m
ethods that are really
sensitiv
e wou
ld d
estroy
or eith
er the sam
pler o
r alter their
compositions.
Mr.
FIT
HIA
N. A
nd I clo
se with
this q
uestio
n, th
en: S
ince th
ere are n
o frag
men
ts from
Presid
ent K
enned
y o
ther th
an th
e skull
shot, in actual fact, using your scientific methods, you cannot shed
any lig
ht o
n w
heth
er or n
ot th
e bullet th
at passed
thro
ugh G
over-
no
r Co
nn
ally also
passed
thro
ug
h th
e Presid
ent; is th
at a correct
statement?
Dr. G
uirsat. That is correct. T
hese results only show that the C
E
399 "p
ristine" b
ullet, o
r so-called
stretcher b
ullet, m
atches th
e frag
men
ts in h
is wrist. T
hey
giv
e yo
u n
o in
form
ation
wh
atsoev
er ab
out w
heth
er that b
ullet first w
ent th
rough P
residen
t Ken
ned
y's
bo
dy
, since it left n
o track
of frag
men
t's and
, for th
at matter, it
doesn't even say that it went through G
overnor Connally—
through his b
ack, th
at is—becau
se it left no track
of frag
men
ts there. A
t
565
least I hav
e nev
er see or h
eard o
f any reco
vered
lead frag
men
ts from
either of those wounds.
The resu
lts, merely
say th
at the stretch
er bullet m
atches th
e fragm
ents in the wrist, and that indicates indeed that that particu-
lar bullet d
id fractu
re the w
rist. It unfo
rtunately
can't tell y
ou
anything else because there were no other bits and pieces along the
other wounds.
Mr. F
rrmars. T
hen your conclusions are what you just stated as
far as the b
ack en
trance an
d th
roat ex
it wound o
f Presid
ent K
en-
nedy, and as far as the close match of the fragm
ents from C
onnal-ly
's wrist w
ith th
e "pristin
e" bu
llet, and
the o
ther co
nclu
sion
yo
u
referred to today is that the particles taken from P
resident Kenne-
dy's skull matches other fragm
ents that were in the car?
Dr. G
urraN
. That is rig
ht, th
ey m
atch o
ne an
oth
er, but th
ey d
o
not match the C
onnally samples.
Mr. F
ITH
IAN
. And that m
eans there were tw
o bullets? D
r. G
UIN
N. T
here w
ere defin
itely tw
o b
ullets. T
here is n
o ev
i-dence for the presence of three, or m
ore. M
r. F
ITH
IAN
. R
epeatin
g th
en, th
ere is no ev
iden
ce for th
ree bullets. T
hank you, Dr. G
uinn. I have no further questions, M
r. Chairm
an. C
hairman ST
OK
ES. T
he time of the gentlem
an has expired. D
r. Guin
n, I th
ink I ju
st hav
e perh
aps m
aybe o
ne, m
aybe tw
o
questions. Obviously from
your testimony here it is evident, as an
exp
ert in n
eutro
n activ
ation
analy
sis, that w
e are talkin
g ab
ou
t a field in w
hich there are relatively few experts; aren't w
e? D
r. Guitars. I w
ouldn't say so any more. It m
ight have been true m
any years back, but every time w
e have an international confer-ence w
e have something like 500 people there, all supposedly and
most of them
really experts in some phase or another of activation
analy
sis. It has g
row
n to
be a field
where th
ere are pro
bab
ly
altogeth
er a few th
ousan
d p
eople w
ho are k
now
ledgeab
le in th
e field.
Chairm
an STO
KE
S. And if w
e go back to the period of time w
e are talk
ing ab
out, 1
963-6
4, th
at perio
d o
f time, w
hat ty
pe o
f field
would there have been then of experts? D
r. G
UIN
N. S
maller n
um
bers, alth
ough ev
en in
1964 w
e had
alread
y h
ad o
ne in
ternatio
nal co
nferen
ce in th
e field. W
e had
another one the year after that. S
o it was obviously already getting
to b
e of so
me size, b
ut o
bvio
usly
not as m
any p
eople as th
ere are now
. It was still considered to be a relatively new
method by som
e people, at least in 1964, although the m
ethod itself was first origi-
nated in 1937; way back then.
Bu
t it cou
ldn
't beco
me a really
very
usefu
l meth
od
un
til the
nu
clear reactor cam
e alon
g, an
d th
at was d
urin
g W
orld
War II,
and th
en it w
as som
e years b
efore reacto
rs becam
e very
wid
ely
available to people; and so it was not until about 1950, you m
ight say, that at least a few
places had nuclear reactors and the scintil-latio
n d
etector k
ind
of co
un
ting
equ
ipm
ent, an
d th
en th
e field
began to grow at a pretty good clip.
Chairm
an ST
OK
ES. I h
ave n
o fu
rther q
uestio
ns. A
t this tim
e. under the rules of our com
mittee, any w
itness appearing oefore the co
mm
ittee, at the co
nclu
sion o
f his testim
ony, is en
titled to
:; m
inutes. During that 5-m
inute period he may explain, am
plify. or
566
in an
y w
ay ex
pan
d u
pon th
e testimony h
e has g
iven
to o
ur co
mm
it-tee. I w
ou
ld lik
e to ex
tend
to y
ou
such
time at th
is time if y
ou
so
desire. D
r. G
UIN
N.
Th
an
k y
ou
, Mr. C
hairm
an
. I will ju
st mak
e o
ne
com
men
t that I th
ought w
e mig
ht h
ave b
rought o
ut b
efore, b
ut w
e did
n't q
uite g
et around to
it. If any o
f you start lo
okin
g at th
ese detailed
num
bers, th
ere need
s to b
e a little furth
er interp
retation.
First o
f all, so
me o
f the e
lem
ents liste
d in
my re
port, in
our
exp
erience w
ith all k
ind
s of b
ullet lead
s often
sho
w u
p an
d o
ften
do
n't sh
ow
up
, and
they
do
n't seem
to b
e characteristic o
f any
-th
ing. S
om
e of th
em are p
robab
ly th
e result o
f extern
al contam
ina-
tion
. Fo
r the sa
ke o
f co
mp
lete
ness, I h
av
e in
clu
ded
all o
f the
elemen
ts detected
, but I d
on't th
ink th
at som
e of th
em co
ntrib
ute
on
e w
ay
or th
e o
ther to
the c
hara
cte
rizatio
n o
f sou
rce o
f the
specimens.
Also
, when
you lo
ok at th
e antim
ony an
d th
e silver v
alues to
see if th
ese samples m
atch th
ese and th
ese match
these, it sh
ould
be
no
ted
that th
e p
lus o
r min
us th
at is sh
ow
n a
fter e
ach
of th
ose
num
bers is m
erely th
e uncertain
ty o
f each v
alue calcu
lated fro
m
what w
e call the co
untin
g statistics. W
e can calcu
late that.
The o
verall m
easurem
ent u
ncertain
ty o
f that n
um
ber o
n th
at sp
ecific sample is so
mew
hat b
igger th
an th
at, mean
ing th
at if we
took th
at iden
tical little piece an
d d
id th
e same ex
perim
ent o
ver
and o
ver ag
ain w
e would
get ab
out th
e same v
alue, b
ut th
e vari-
atio
n w
ou
ld b
e so
mew
hat m
ore
than
that c
alc
ula
ted
from
the
countin
g statistics—
perh
aps as m
uch
as twice larg
er. It dep
ends o
n
the v
alue.
And th
en, if y
ou are try
ing to
match
this p
iece and th
is piece—
which
really b
oth
came fro
m th
e same b
ullet b
ut y
ou d
on't k
now
it an
d y
ou
are
tryin
g to
pro
ve it—
yo
u h
av
e to
tak
e in
to a
cco
un
t an
oth
er factor—
ho
w h
om
og
eneo
us is th
at bu
llet? Is every
piece
that y
ou tak
e from
a bullet th
e same? A
nd th
e answ
er is: No; th
ey
are no
t. Th
e ind
ivid
ual b
ullets are fairly
ho
mo
gen
eou
s, bu
t there
are significan
t variatio
ns w
ithin
them
. W
e hav
e a great d
eal of b
ackgro
un
d d
ata, specifically
on
WC
C
Man
nlich
er-Carcan
o b
ullet lead
, that isn
't in th
e report, b
ut w
e use
that as th
e back
up w
hich
show
s that th
e variatio
n w
ithin
a bullet
is sign
ificant.
So
wh
en y
ou
start to co
mp
are nu
mb
ers, it turn
s ou
t, for ex
amp
le, o
n th
e antim
on
y n
um
bers, ro
ug
hly
speak
ing
, if yo
u rak
e the p
lus
or m
inu
s that is sh
ow
n an
d m
ultip
ly it b
y ab
ou
t 6, th
at will tak
e care o
f all of th
ose v
ariabilities w
ithin
the sam
ple, as w
ell as the
small m
easurem
ent u
ncertain
ties. T
he v
ariation w
ithin
that in
div
idual b
ullet is th
en tak
en in
to
account, an
d th
en y
ou fin
d o
ut th
at two sam
ples in
deed
match
one
anoth
er as closely
as could
be ex
pected
. For ex
ample, th
e CE
-399
samp
le gav
e a measu
red v
alue o
f 83
3 p
arts per m
illion
antim
on
y,
whereas th
e CE
-842 sam
ple sh
ow
ed 7
97. W
ell, any g
ramm
ar school
bo
y w
ill tell yo
u 7
97
is no
t the sam
e as 83
3. B
ut w
hen
yo
u co
nsid
er th
at the 8
33
is plu
s or m
inu
s abo
ut 5
0 an
d th
e 79
7 is p
lus o
r min
us
abo
ut 5
0, th
en y
ou
see that y
ou
can't d
isting
uish
on
e from
the
oth
er. T
hey a
re in
distin
guish
able
. but. b
y th
e sa
me to
ken, th
e
oth
er samp
les wh
ich are o
nly
abo
ut ro
ug
hly
62
0 p
lus o
r min
us a
smaller am
ount. in
that case ab
out 2
0 o
r 30—
they
very
clearly n
ot
567
on
ly m
atch o
ne an
oth
er, bu
t they
also w
idely
differ fro
m th
is 80
0
figure.
But so
me o
f that is ex
plain
ed in
the tex
t of th
e report. Y
ou can
't ju
st take th
e nu
mb
ers from
the tab
le and
blin
dly
go
ahead
; yo
u
hav
e to read
the fin
e prin
t as well to
see that ev
eryth
ing is p
roper-
ly tak
en in
to acco
un
t. In
any
even
t, tho
ug
h, I th
ink
the resu
lts hav
e com
e ou
t in a
fairly clean
-cut fash
ion. W
e did
n't p
redict an
y p
articular w
ay th
ey
wo
uld
com
e ou
t; they
just fell o
ut th
is way
. An
d, as I say
it led m
e to
reexam
ine th
e FB
I data m
ore carefu
lly th
an I h
ad d
on
e earlier. I fran
kly
was v
ery su
rprised
to see th
at even
their d
ata, som
ewhat
fuzzier, et cetera, still fell rig
ht in
to th
e same p
icture.
So
I thin
k th
e con
clusio
ns are w
ell establish
ed. A
lso, as I h
ave
stated earlier, fo
rtunately
by u
sing th
is meth
od o
ne d
oes n
ot d
e-stro
y th
e samples. T
he id
entical sam
ples are still th
ere. They
weig
h
the sam
e; they
can b
e analy
zed all o
ver ag
ain. A
ll of th
e radio
activ-
ity th
at we in
duced
in th
em a y
ear ago h
as long d
ecayed
out, so
th
ey co
uld
readily
be an
alyzed
ov
er again
, if desired
. O
ther th
an th
at, I just w
ant to
say it h
as been
a real pleasu
re w
ork
ing
with
the co
mm
ittee and
with
the staff o
f the co
mm
ittee, an
d I th
ank
yo
u v
ery m
uch
for in
vitin
g m
e here.
Chairm
an ST
OK
ES. I g
uess y
ou
raised o
ne ad
ditio
nal q
uestio
n in
m
y m
ind. A
ssum
ing th
at your d
ata were p
resented
to an
oth
er ex
pert in
your field
, can w
e assum
e with
a reasonab
le deg
ree of
certainty
that th
e exp
ert will co
me to
the sam
e con
clusio
ns th
at you h
ave?
Dr. G
uiro
r. I believ
e so; y
es. As I say
, if you ju
st han
ded
him
the
table o
f measu
red v
alues, h
e initially
mig
ht in
terpret th
e plu
s and
min
uses as m
eanin
g th
e total u
ncertain
ty; an
d, o
f cou
rse, then
he
would
say: W
ell, 79, is n
ot th
e same as 8
33. H
ow
ever, in
the tex
t of
the rep
ort, it is p
oin
ted o
ut th
at the tab
le plu
s-min
us v
alues d
o n
ot
represen
t the to
tal uncertain
ty o
f a sample; it is larg
er than
that.
If he to
ok
that in
to acco
un
t, he w
ou
ld reach
the sam
e con
clusio
ns;
yes. C
hairm
an ST
OK
ES. T
he Chair recognizes counsel Jim
Wolf.
Mr.
WO
LF
. M
r. Chairm
an, fo
r the reco
rd, I w
ould
like to
note
that D
r. Gu
inn
's repo
rt has b
een su
bm
itted to
an in
dep
end
ent
con
sultan
t for rev
iew an
d ev
aluatio
n an
d h
e com
pletely
agreed
w
ith th
e results ach
ieved
and
repo
rted b
y D
r. Gu
inn
. C
hairm
an
STO
KE
S. D
r. Guin
n, o
n b
ehalf o
f our co
mm
ittee, we
than
k y
ou
very
mu
ch. Y
ou
hav
e mad
e a very
valu
able co
ntrib
utio
n
here
today a
nd w
e c
erta
inly
appre
cia
te a
ll the tim
e y
ou h
ave
exp
end
ed o
n o
ur b
ehalf. T
han
k y
ou
. D
r. GU
INN
. Thank you.
Ch
airman
ST
OK
ES.
Th
ere bein
g n
o fu
rther b
usin
ess to co
me
befo
re the co
mm
ittee today
, this co
mm
ittee meetin
g is ad
journ
ed
un
til 9 a.m
. Mo
nd
ay m
orn
ing
. [W
hereu
pon, at 5
:10 p
.m. th
e com
mittee,ad
journ
ed, to
reconven
e at 9 a.m
. Monday, S
eptember 11, 1978.]