new south wales police service · · 2017-11-14that's right but i said i wasn't like a...

NEW SOUTH WALES POLICE SERVICE

CERTIFICATION OF E.R.I.S.P. TRANSCRIPT

ERISP INTERVIEW NO

NAME o.F INTERVIEWEE

. NAME OF INTERVIEWING OFFICER

INTERVIEW LOCATION

DATE OF INTERVIEW

NUMBER OF PAGES

I have reviewed this transcription and compared the 4ranscript with the Police Master

recording. I am of the opinion that the transcript is an accurate record of the

electronically recorded Interview.

8005 - R0163972 1-90748

I

I t

1.

I ! , I

! ! I i . I _ t

. ,

, ,

NPF.065.001.0160_E_R

CONSTABLE MALONEY

01 f EY I (ollay is, do you know what day it is today?

A Monday?

02 Very good.

A I'm supposed to be going to school today.

03 Are you?

A Mmm.

04 Right. Well you're lucky because you're going to talk to me today

A

05

A

06

A

07

A

08

instead aren't you?

Then I'm stayed home.

And colour In. That's more fun isn't it? So it's Monday and it's the

22nd of November 2010 and the time quarter passed 11 .00 and I

spoke to you before didn't WEY p Yep.

Yes and I told you my name was Stacey?

Yep.

And I told you what I did for a job. Can you remember what I said?

Police man.

That's right but I said I wasn't like a normal police man or lady, I had,

didn't wear a uniform did I can I spoke to children and you met

another lady before didn't you named Ciair. Yes. Can you tell me

what your full name is EY

A rey

~===i'-----_-----.J 09 f EY ~ that's a pretty name and do you know what your birthday is?

A

010

A

011

A

Yep.

What is it?

REDACTED

Rf:OAC1ED

Five.

and how old are you L-_....J

012 Five. Big girl. So when do you tum six? Next year In _

8005 - R0163972 1 190748'

I . I I , I I I

i

f • , ' I , ' , , ,

NPF.065.001.0161_E_R

A (NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

Q 13 Yes. Excellent.

A My brother already goes to school.

Q14 Does he? How old is he?

A Eight.

Q15 He's eight so he's a little bit older than you. What school does he go

to?

A

Q16 Right. O.K.

A

Q17

A

And I'm going to go to .....

Lovely and you know where we are today?

Where?

Q18 We're In Kogarah. We're at the Kogarah Joint Investigation

Response Team Office. That's· a big name isn't it and when you

spoke to me before and I told you I was a police officer and you met

Clair and Clair said that she worked for Department of Communily

Services do you remember that?


Q19 Yes? And you saw the toy room didn't you and we came In here and

we talked aboul, what did we talk about In here? What was

something different we talking about, different about the room?

A The fish?

Q20 Yes what else?

A The teddies?

Q21

A

What else?

Those?

Q22 That's right and what were they do you remember?

A So that, so the films.

Q23 That's very good. It's the cameras Isn't It and we said this was the

8005 - R0163972 2 190748

, I I

I ' i I I

I ! ,

r

• I j

I '

NPF.065.001.0162_E_R

microphone didn't we and then we went next door and what did you

see next door'?

A Something so you can see over here.

024 Yes.

A Camera.

025 And we also talked about the DVD's didn't we and we said that they

record what we talk about today and I asked you a question. Do you

remember what question I asked you'?-


026 We talked about lots of things In there didn't we? I said was ' it O.K. if

we recorded what we talked about today and what did you say?

A

027

Yes.

Y ~

es, very good. Excellent. Now If at any stage todaYL-_...J" ou want

to have a little break or you want a drink or go to the toilet you just let

me knowO.K?

A Yep.

028 You're doing very good with your colouring there it's lovely. Now do

what a lie Is? What's a lie? You teli me.

When you, when you say something that's not true? A

Q29 Right, very good and what about the truth? Do you know what the

truth Is?

A Yes.

Q30 What Is it?

A When you teli somebody when it's right.

Q31 Very good. You're very clever aren't you? 'Well today Lf _EY __ f - -

A MmmMmm.

Q32 - - - can we make an agreement so we can both tell the truth and only

talk about true thlng.s today?

A Yep.

8005 - R0163972 3 190748

, , I

. I

II ' ! •

II' ! , ! I

I I

NPF.065.001.0163_E_R

033 Yes? Do you know what an agreement is?


034 Well If we promise to tell the truth about everything we talk about

today. It's like a promise. Yes? O.K. Good. Now Ilf I ask you any

questions today nd you don't know the answer to them - - -'----'

A MmmMmm.

035 - - - how do you think you'll let me know?

A I'll just say I don't know.

036 Excellent. O.K. and if I ask you a question today and you don't want

to tell me the answer how would you let me know?

A I'll just say I don't want to tell?

037 O.K. Well if we come across some of those questions we'll see If we

can talk about It a bit more so you might feel more comfortable talking

about it yes?

A (NO AUDIBLE REPLy)

038 And If I ask you a question today and you don't understand the

A

039

A

040

question how would you let me know?

(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

Do you know what understand means?

(NO AUDIBLE REPLy)

What does It mean?

A It's like you know, you know what people mean.

041 Very good O.K. So If I ask yOU .8 question and you don't know what I

mean how wo.uld you tell me?


042 Would you say I don't know what you' mean Stacey? Would that be

easy?

A

043

(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

Yes? O.K. You Ju~t tell me that. O.K. So todaYLe_Y_....Jlbecause

8005 - R0163972 4 190748

1 I I

! .

i I

NPF.065.001.0164_E_R

we're gOing to have a talk It's really important thaI what you tell me is

the truth like we said and I want you to know that everything that you

tell me today is very important O.K. and I'm going to do some writing

while you tell me OX Do you understand that?

A Yep.

044 Yes so I want you to try and remember as much as you can when I

ask you some questions alright?

A Yep.

045 O.K. Doing some very good colouring In there. So I'm just going to

A

046

A

047

A

Q48

A

049

A

Q50

A

Q51

A

Q52

A

Q53

A

write some things. So you said before that you were meant to go to

school today but you didn't go. What school do you go to?

f"G Pardon?

REDACTED I use to go to

What's REDACTED

today and I go

Those are two different schools.

REDACTED

Two different schools? OK So what's the 1Irst one?

REDACTED

How do you say it? REDACTED

REDACTED right and what days do you go there?

Monday and Tuesday.

OK And what's the other school you go to?

rEG I r EG I and what days do you go t{ EG p Thursday and Friday.

and LL_EG __ _

Thursday and Friday. Right. So tell me what you like about

I don't know,

8005 - R0163972 5 190748

. , ~ !

; , ,

j , I ,

I I I I i I I j

NPF.065.001.0165_E_R

054 You don't know? What aboutLL"_G __ --lP What do you like about

jREOACTED r A I don't know either.

055 Don'l know. What about, which school do you like better?

A

056

REDACTED

Why do you like REDACTED better?

A Because U's just, I just like it better.

057 You Just Irke it better?

Mmm. A

058 That's fair enough. So at ,

REDACTED have you got many friends

there?

A Lots.

059 Yes? Lots. Who are some of your friends at

A I -;;;;,;;;;;;;;;;;

060 _ yes.

A _

061 Yes.

A

062 Yes.

A

063 Yes. They're all nice names aren't they and what do you do with

REDACTED and_ at school?

A We all play together.

064 Do you?

A

065

It's~ _ sorry .•. . Right and what about EG Who are your

A

066

A

friends a EG

I don't really have much.

DOri't have much there? Who do you play with there? .. 8005 ~ R0163972 6 190748

I I

~ 1 I i I

III

, i'. I

. I

' I' I I : i ; I :

NPF.065.001.0166_E_R

067

A

068

A

069

Right and what about the workers at

they?

Is that at L...r E_G __ ....Jr


070 Yes~CHD yes?

A ",f D=M=,.-J

071 ~yes.

A

072

Casey.

Yes. Is that ali you can remember?

A There's, there's other ones but they're like

073 Couple_ yes .

A • HD _ .

And then nd_ '----'

074 Yes, very - --

- - - then _ and E:::J

REDACTED

A

075 REDACTED O.K. What about who are the workers at

A

076

A

-077 Yes.

A

078

A REDACTED

yes.

079 ~asll?


080. Yes.

A And ones name Is

80.0.5 - R0.163972 7

Who are

I

. 11 i . I

REDACTED ,

! I , . , ,

. I I . ,

190.748

NPF.065.001.0167_E_R

· 081 Really? Another ~ There you go. Right and what do you like

about the workers at REDACTED ,

A There's nothing I like about them.

082 Nothing you like about them? Are they nice? Which one's your

favourite one out there?

A -083 You like _ What about the ones at lCEG r A ~ IlikeEJhe best.

084 You like OM he best and how come you like OM he best?

A

085

I don't ·know. I just, I just like him the best.

Just like him the best and how come you like

REDACTEO ?

A Because she reads stories to us.

086 Yes, she reads stories what else?

A

087

A

088

A

Q89

She plays with us.

Yes. That's It what aboutEJyou said you don't know.

certain things, what does he do?

Sometimes he. plays with me.

Yes? What does he play?

Sometimes we play hIde and seek.

Yes, what else?

A Sometimes, that's about It.

Q90 That's about It? O.K.

A And sometimes /. sit on his lap.

Q91 Right. Thai's looking very nice isn't it?

A

Q92

I just need the wings.

What colour do you Ihink you should do?

Rainbow.

best at

Does he do

A

Q93 Rainbow? That's a good Idea. I wouldn't have thought of that. O.K.

So you've told me loIs of very Important things today. You've told me

8005 - R0163972 8 190748

! I I ,

; .

, I i I i i I , I

I

I

NPF.065.001.0168_E_R

A

Q94

you go to REDACTED

on Mondays and Tuesdays and you go to

f EG Ion Thursdays and Fridays and you've got lots of friends at RI-OACTED _ at f EG Iyou play

with your favourite worker at Is _

because she reads you stories and she plays with you yes?

Mmm.

And your favourite worker atL...fE_G __ -, ecause he plays with

you, you play hide and seek and sometimes you sit on his lap, yes?


Q95 When you play hide and seek where do you normally play?

In the yard. A

Q96 In the yard and who plays hide and seek with you?

A _

Q97 does? Yes. Anyone else?


No? Just you and I

(NO AUDIBLE REPLy)

Yes? Q98

A

Q99 OK And so whelT you sit onE:Js lap. ~oes anyone else sit 0 COM s

A

Q100

A

lap?

sometimes _

Sometimes'

Not all the time but.

,

Q101 Very good. I'll Just ask Clair If she's got any questions is that O.K?


Q102 OK Do you know what this picture Is?

A

Q103

A girl.

A girl, very good so what about that?

T~e back of her. A

Q104 Very good. OK So you've got the front of the girl and the back of

8005 - R0163972 9 . 190748

, , I ,

i ' I

• I I !

I I I I I

NPF.065.001.0169_E_R

A

0105

A

0106

A

0107

A

0108

A

0109

A

0110

A

0111

A

0112

A

the girl. O.K. So what's this on the girl?

The hair.

The hair. O.K. and who's allowed to touch you on your hair?

Not really nobody.

No?

Nobody wants to.

Nobody wants to? OK So I'll write hair. So nobody's really allowed

to touch you on your hair and you said nobody wants to touch you on

your hair. So has anyone touched your hair?

Mmm.

No.

Who done that one.

I don't know It looks good thought doesn't it? What about your hand?

Sometimes.

Who's allowed to touch you on your hand?

Everybody.

Everybody?

Everybody Is allowed to touch my hair and my hand and what,

wherever they want but they just don't want, they don't just, they don't

want to.

They don't want to?

They don't feel like It.

0113 O.K. What about this part? What's this?

A The toes.

0114 Toes, yes. Who's allowed to touch you on your toes?

A

0115

A

Q116

A

Nobody wants to because I had shoes on so they can't - - -

Because you got - - -

Shoes on.

Fair enough.

Yeah. There's lots of bees ateG

~-----'

8005 - R0163972 10 190748

I I

. , , .

I i I , I , i J I I I I ~ ! , . , '

i i : i I

I I I

NPF.065.001.0170_E_R

Q117

A

Q118

A

Q119

A

Q120

A

Q121

A

Q122

A

Q123

A

Q124

A

Q125

A

Q126

A

Q127

Lots of bees is there?

Mmm.

Right. O.K. What about this part? What's this part?

The back.

Yes, your back's here. Who's allowed to touch you on your back?

..... not really nobody but they don't, they are allowed but I don't, they

Just don't want to, feel like it.

Does anybody touch you on your back?

Nah.

No?

Nowhere.

No? What about this part? What's this part here?

The bottom?

The bottom, very good. Who's allowed to touch you on your bottom?

Nobody.

Nobody and has anybody touched you on your bottom?

(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

No? O.K. What about this part? What is it?

My, the vagina.

Very good and who's allowed· to touch you on your vagina?

Nobody.

And has anybody touched you on your vagfna?

A (NO AUDIBLE'REPL y)

Q128 No? That's very good. You know all the parts where people aren't

A

Q129

A

Q130

allowed to touch. So can I write your name on this ~

Yep.

Alright. fEY land I'll write today's date and do you want to

write, can you write your name?

Yep.

Do you want to write It down there for me?

8005 - R0163972 11 190748

, ' , . · ' . ; I :

, I · :

· i , , I , · '

iii I I ! I I , I

NPF.065.001.0171_E_R

A Yeah.

0131 Very good. So do you have two N's in your name?

A Yep.

0132 Sonry, I've only written one. That was a bit naughty wasn't it? I have

to fix that.

A Sometimes my teachers at think its one.

0133 I like ft. with two N's actually. It's nice isn't It? Yes. So before when

A

0134

you were telling me about._ yOu said you liked her because

she read you stories and she plays with you. Is there anything that

you don't like about'

No. CDM

No? And before you told me that you liked ecause he plays

hide and seek and he lets you sit on his lap. Is there anything you

don't like abou~

A No.

0135 No? What about anyone else

A No.

0136

A

0137

A

0138

No? You like everybody?

Yep.

Yes? Are you always happY 'and laughing like you are?

(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

That's nice. That's good isn't It?

Makes my teeth go cold. A

'0139 When you laugh? Yo~'re funnY L"v 11'11 just ask Clair Ifshe's got

any questions. I'm happy with that to be honest. I'm satisfied. Well,

no, not going to go there. So Is there anything else you want to tell

me about today "-------'

A Mmm.

0140 No?

8005 - R0163972 12 190748

I I •

, I

i i I

if; i : i I . . . . .

NPF.065.001.0172_E_R

A Mmm.

0141 No? So you know how we've got this pic;ture of this girl - - -

A Mmm.

0142 - - - and normally we have clothes on don't we?


0143 Yes? And if we had a picture of a boy he would normally have

clothes on wouldn't he?


0144 Yes.

Sometimes my brother takes his (-shirt off. A

0145 Does he? Do you know the difference between a boy and a girl?

A Nope.

0146 No? That's very good. You're doing extra wings. You're a very good

drawer. Very c.lever.

A Here we are.

0147 Now I might just tell Clair to tell me the ' time and we might just have a

A

0148

little break for a minute. 11.27. So are you happy to just keep drawing

for a IIttle' mlnute while I just stop the tapes for a minute and go and

speak to Clair?

MmmMmm.

Yes? Good girl. Alright I'll just get Clair to press pause for a little

minute. I'm only just gong to be next door so I won't be far O.K?

A I like that one.

0149 You should keep doing that one. You can have that one and colour

in.

A I don't know who don't that.

0150 I don't know but it looks good doesn't it?

A Yep.

0151 So has Clair stopped the tapes? Yes, thanks. Thanks. You keep

8005 - R0163972 13 190748

, · . , • j I \ , , I ! ' , • I

· I

I .

NPF.065.001.0173_E_R

drawing.

A Might read some of my pop up books.

Q152 You c.an read your book. I'll just leave the door like tha\.

INTERVIEW SUSPENDED

INTERVIEW RESUMED

CONSTABLE MALONEY

Q153 OK So Clair Is just starting the tapes again. Look what you've done

with that drawing. That's very nice. You've put some new flns on

him. So It's 11.30am and we just had a litlle break didn't weLfEY __

A

Q154

A

Q155

Yep.

And did we talk about anything dUring the break?

(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

In that room.

A Just there.

Q156 That's right so we couldn't really talk about anything could we, no. So

did you talk to anybody, have you talked to anybody else about your

day care?

A

Q157

Yep.

Yes? Who have you talked to?

I forget the name. A

Q158 You forget the name. What did you tell them? Can you remember

what you told them?

A No.

Q159 No? What about your mummy? Did you talk to mummy?

A No.

Q160 No?

A No, no, no.

Q161 And when you spoke to the other lady, can you remember where that

was?

8005 - R0163972 14 190748

: t •

j ! : ' , I I

i · I .

d ~ , , I · , j

· I

NPF.065.001.0174_E_R

A Sutherland.

0162 Sutherland, right. OK And what questionS did she ask you can you

A

0163

A

0164

A

0165

A

0166

A

0167

remember?

No.

None at all?

Not really, no.

. Who did she talk to you about?

Who did she talk to.you about?

Yes who dId she talk to you about?

We talked about how the preschool Is.

Yes and what did you say?

And I said it's good.

Yes? Old you talk about any people at the preschool?

A Not really.

0168 Not really? No? Old you talk about any of the people you've told me

about today?


0169 Who did you talk about?

A

0170

REDACTED

Yes?

All the teachers. A

0171 Old you? Right. Because the lady that you talked to saId that you

told her something about~


0172 No?

Mmm. A

0173 Can't remember? What about mummy? Did you tell mummy

A

0174

)C5M"1 anythIng aboutL-J

Not really, nah.

Not really?

8005 - R0163972 15 190748

i i ' I

I ' I

i I i ,

I i I

I '

II ,

I

NPF.065.001.0175_E_R

Nah. A

Q175 Because you know you're not In trouble if you've said anything.

A

Q176

A

Q177

No, I didn't say anything.

You didn't say anything?

(NO AUDIBLE REPLY)

No? OK Is there anyone at school at either

EG hat has made you feel uncomfortable? '--__ ----l

A Nah.

Q178 No?

A

So you like gong to school? Got no problems? Yes?

REDACTI [) or

Q179

A But I really want to go to a big school now because It's a bit boring

and - --

Q180 Is it a bit boring now? Well you're almost five so - - -

A I'm already five.

Q181 Sorry. You're almost six so you're ready for big school aren't you?

A

Q182

A

Q183

A

Won't be long because you'll be going - - -

It's a pop up page.

It's beautiful I like It. Yes,

The, the fairy Is mine,

It's lovely. It's very good. Well I think that's all we can talk about

tOdaY U YOU've been very, very good,

That's a bit ripped.

Q184 Is It a little bit ripped? That's alright. I may have to sticky tape that.

So I'm just going to get Clair to tell me the time and the time Is 11.35

and we're going to stop the tapes so I want to say thanks for talking to

me today. Clair's going to tell me when there's - - -

A I liked the last one.

Q185 Old you? Yes?

INTERVIEW CONCLUDED

8005 - R0163972 16 190748

i ,

I , I i ~ I , .

I

i I

! I

II I ' , I 1

I , i I

! I I I

i ! I

NPF.065.001.0176_E_R

new south wales police service · · 2017-11-14that's right but i said i wasn't like a...

Documents