Nephilim, Nephilim, GoliathGoliath, and , and Post-Flood Big GuysPost-Flood Big Guys

The Bible refers to several special populations which The Bible refers to several special populations which many students of the Bible believe to be genetically many students of the Bible believe to be genetically

related. The title of “Nephilim” is given before the flood related. The title of “Nephilim” is given before the flood to the first of these groups. The translation of it is to the first of these groups. The translation of it is

uncertain enough so that some of our top theologians uncertain enough so that some of our top theologians disagree, but commonly, translations read,disagree, but commonly, translations read,

This study’s approachThis study’s approach We tend to associate giants with fairy-tales. Not We tend to associate giants with fairy-tales. Not

wishing to seem superstitious, many Christians spend wishing to seem superstitious, many Christians spend little time with the subject of Biblical giants.little time with the subject of Biblical giants.

This study looks first in detail at the scripture’s This study looks first in detail at the scripture’s testimony concerning these groups. To the best of my testimony concerning these groups. To the best of my ability I allow the text to say what it says. ability I allow the text to say what it says.

Extra-biblical stories about giants are briefly Extra-biblical stories about giants are briefly considered. considered.

Lastly, realities of physiology and physics are brought Lastly, realities of physiology and physics are brought to bear on the subject, finding limiting factors, and to bear on the subject, finding limiting factors, and revealing that the Bible’s record of giants is actually revealing that the Bible’s record of giants is actually evidence for the reliability of scripture.evidence for the reliability of scripture.

(click to continue)(click to continue)

e-Sworde-Sword Scriptural texts used in this study are Scriptural texts used in this study are

copied from several translations of the copied from several translations of the Bible supplied with the Bible study Bible supplied with the Bible study software e-Sword version 9.5.1. This software e-Sword version 9.5.1. This powerful Bible study tool is available powerful Bible study tool is available FREE at FREE at www.e-sword.netwww.e-sword.net. Many . Many translations are available, with translations are available, with dictionaries (such as Strong’s), dictionaries (such as Strong’s), commentaries, atlases, Christian books commentaries, atlases, Christian books and other resources free, or at modest and other resources free, or at modest price.price.

In May of 2008 Creation Science In May of 2008 Creation Science Fellowship member Fellowship member Roger LenardRoger Lenard piqued piqued CSFNM curiosity regarding the nature of CSFNM curiosity regarding the nature of the Biblical giants, the Biblical giants, the Nephilimthe Nephilim. .

Citing Citing extra-biblical reports of evidencesextra-biblical reports of evidences for giants as much as for giants as much as 36 feet tall36 feet tall, Roger , Roger suggested that demonic cross breeding suggested that demonic cross breeding may have resulted in populations of may have resulted in populations of soul-less giantssoul-less giants which could explain which could explain puzzling aspects of Scripture, puzzling aspects of Scripture, archeology and mythology.archeology and mythology.

THE BACKGROUND OF THIS PRESENTATIONTHE BACKGROUND OF THIS PRESENTATION

BACKGROUNDBACKGROUND

Roger said the name “Rephaim”, Roger said the name “Rephaim”, given one of these groups given one of these groups suggests they had no souls. suggests they had no souls.

Seeing that I had pointed Seeing that I had pointed questions for Roger, the questions for Roger, the Fellowship’s president invited me Fellowship’s president invited me to revisit the topic with a future to revisit the topic with a future presentation. Eventually I got that presentation. Eventually I got that presentation together and gave it. presentation together and gave it. With some updating, here it is.With some updating, here it is.

Extra-biblicalExtra-biblical

Accounts and legends tell of Accounts and legends tell of massive characters with massive characters with strength unmatched even by strength unmatched even by modern technology. How does modern technology. How does the Biblical testimony compare the Biblical testimony compare with these?with these?

The Coming of the NephilimThe Coming of the Nephilim The Nephilim are first described in Genesis. The Nephilim are first described in Genesis. ((Gen 6:1-4 Gen 6:1-4 Literal Translation, or LITV) Literal Translation, or LITV) “And it came “And it came

about that men began to multiply on the face of the about that men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them. The sons of earth, and daughters were born to them. The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were good, God saw the daughters of men, that they were good, and they took wives for themselves from all those and they took wives for themselves from all those whom they chose. And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall whom they chose. And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man; in their erring he is flesh. not always strive with man; in their erring he is flesh. And his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. And his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. The The giantsgiants were in the earth in those days, and even were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when the sons of God came in to the afterwards when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore to them; daughters of men, and they bore to them; they were they were heroes which existed from ancient time, the men of heroes which existed from ancient time, the men of namename.” .”

Heroes from ancient time? Who were they? Who were Heroes from ancient time? Who were they? Who were those parents?those parents?

WAIT!How Important is This Question?

My original presentation on this subject was given from the viewpoint that the Nephilim were linked genetically to the other, post-flood characters.

Challenges to my position by Jim Hovis, (also of the Creation Science Fellowship of New Mexico) and in the paper A Genesis Model for the Origin, Variation, and Continuation of Human Populations (CRSQ 47-2) by Dr Joel Klenck prompted another, closer look.

Learning the Limits of My InformationPreviously I had the impression that the word “Nephil” was attached to all the post-flood giants. Thanks to Jim and Dr Klenck I saw that “Nephil” itself only occurs once after the flood, in questionable testimony, in Numbers 13:31-33:

“But the men that went up with him said, We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched to the sons of Israel, saying, The land through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eats up those who live in it. And all the people whom we saw in it were men of stature. And there we saw the giants [nephilim], the sons of Anak, of the giants [nephilim]. And we were in our own sight like grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.” (MKJV)

Doubtful Testimony For their unfaithful report, God killed ten of the

twelve spies with plague. Their claim that the sons of Anak were of the

Nephilim may be wrong, but scripture does not actually contradict it. Their position that the Israelites could not defeat such an enemy is contradicted on the grounds that God was going to help them.

It is important to recognize that scripture’s narrative does not say the Anakim are Nephilim; only that these unfaithful spies said so.

Were the Nephilim even Large? In Genesis 6, the text about the Nephilim

says nothing (necessarily) of size in the original language.

In light of these facts I now recognize that the post-flood groups and persons may actually be unrelated to the Nephilim.

On further reflection I also see that the insights I’m presenting don’t need the Nephilim connection.

After a glance at the many uses of the sons of God concept, this discussion will focus on post-flood populations and persons like Goliath.

People Called Sons of GodPeople Called Sons of GodPerson or Group Scripture References Expression Used Comment

Adam Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God

“son of” is counted as implied throughout the genealogy.

Solomon 2 Samuel 7:12-141 Chron 22:9-10

I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

Figurative adoption

Sons of Israel Hos 1:10 sons of the living God “ben chay el”

Stranger in the Furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

Daniel 3:23-25 “the Son of God” or “a son of the gods”

Chaldee “bar elahh”, interpreted by Nebuchadnezar

Christians/peacemakers

Mat 5:9, Luke 20:36, Rom 8:14&19, Rom 9:6-8, Rom 9:26, Gal 3:26, 4:4-7, 1 John 3:2

“children of God”, ”children of the living God”

“Technon”, or “uihos” of “Theos”

Jesus John 3:16, Psalm 2:7, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, Acts 13:33, Heb 1:5, Heb 5:5

“only begotten Son of God”

“monogenes”“uihos”

Congregants Before God

Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7 “sons of God” “ben Elohim”

Parents of the Nephilim

Gen 6:2&4 “sons of God” “ben Elohim”

Farewell to the NephilimFarewell to the Nephilim

I still have the information gathered to I still have the information gathered to discuss the origin of the Nephilim, but I discuss the origin of the Nephilim, but I now count the identity of the Sons of God now count the identity of the Sons of God and the Daughters of men as a side issue. and the Daughters of men as a side issue. As such I will not go any further into the As such I will not go any further into the Nephilim question per se.Nephilim question per se.

Now, How About Those Giants?

““GIANTS?”GIANTS?” WHO SAID ANYTHING WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ABOUT “GIANTS”?“GIANTS”?

UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE CONCEPT OF UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE CONCEPT OF GIANTS, SOME PEOPLE SUGGEST ALTERNATE GIANTS, SOME PEOPLE SUGGEST ALTERNATE READINGS.READINGS.

TRANSLATION ACROSS LANGUAGE, CULTURE, TRANSLATION ACROSS LANGUAGE, CULTURE, AGES, AND WORLDVIEWS IS TRICKY. AGES, AND WORLDVIEWS IS TRICKY.

WHERE ONE VERSION INTERPRETS, ANOTHER WHERE ONE VERSION INTERPRETS, ANOTHER TRANSLITERATESTRANSLITERATES

Words translated “giants” can mean other Words translated “giants” can mean other thingsthings

Several words can mean “giants”Several words can mean “giants”

Names of Giants, A to ZNames of Giants, A to Z

AnakimAnakim (sons of Anak) (Num 13:33 KJV+) “And (sons of Anak) (Num 13:33 KJV+) “And there we saw the giants (Nephil), the sons of there we saw the giants (Nephil), the sons of Anak, which come of the giants (Nephil): and we Anak, which come of the giants (Nephil): and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.” were in their sight.”

Emims Emims (Deu 2:10-11 LITV) “The Emim lived there (Deu 2:10-11 LITV) “The Emim lived there in days gone by, a great and plentiful people, and in days gone by, a great and plentiful people, and tall as the Anakimtall as the Anakim; they are reckoned to be ; they are reckoned to be giants (Rapha), they too, giants (Rapha), they too, like the Anakimlike the Anakim; but ; but the the MoabitesMoabites call them Emim.” call them Emim.”

NephilimNephilim (Gen 6:4 LITV) “The giants (Nephil) (Gen 6:4 LITV) “The giants (Nephil) were in the earth in those days, and even were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when the sons of God came in to the afterwards when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore to them; they daughters of men, and they bore to them; they were heroes which existed from ancient time, the were heroes which existed from ancient time, the men of name.”men of name.”

The Giants and Heroes of Old Per The Giants and Heroes of Old Per ScriptureScripture

Names of Giants, A to ZNames of Giants, A to Z

RephaimRephaim (Deu 3:11 LITV) For only Og the king of (Deu 3:11 LITV) For only Og the king of Bashan remained of the rest of the giants (Rapha). Bashan remained of the rest of the giants (Rapha). Behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not Behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the sons of Ammon, nine cubits long in Rabbath of the sons of Ammon, nine cubits long and four cubits broad, by the cubit of a man? and four cubits broad, by the cubit of a man? Strong’s, H7497 Strong’s, H7497 רפה רפארפה רפא ra^pha^' ra^pha^hra^pha^' ra^pha^h raw-faw',raw-faw', raw-faw‘ raw-faw‘ From H7495 in the sense of From H7495 in the sense of invigoratinginvigorating; a ; a giantgiant: - giant, Rapha, Rephaim (-s). : - giant, Rapha, Rephaim (-s). See also H1051. See also H1051.

ZamzummimsZamzummims (Deu 2:20 KJV+) That also was (Deu 2:20 KJV+) That also was accounted a land of giants (Rapha): giants (Rapha) accounted a land of giants (Rapha): giants (Rapha) dwelt therein in old time; and the dwelt therein in old time; and the AmmonitesAmmonites call call them Zamzummims;them Zamzummims;

The Nephilim Connection Introduced in Genesis, the Nephilim were Introduced in Genesis, the Nephilim were

apparently a remarkable group.apparently a remarkable group. (Gen 6:4 LITV) (Gen 6:4 LITV) “The giants (Nephil) were in the earth in those “The giants (Nephil) were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when the sons of God days, and even afterwards when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore to came in to the daughters of men, and they bore to them; they were heroes which existed from them; they were heroes which existed from ancient time, the men of name.”ancient time, the men of name.”

The text, however, does not necessarily mean they The text, however, does not necessarily mean they were larger people. After the flood they are named were larger people. After the flood they are named once:once:

(Num 13:33 KJV+) “And there we saw the giants (Num 13:33 KJV+) “And there we saw the giants (Nephil), the sons of Anak, which come of the (Nephil), the sons of Anak, which come of the giants (Nephil): and we were in our own sight as giants (Nephil): and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.” grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.”

The testimony is clear, but it’s said by the unfaithful The testimony is clear, but it’s said by the unfaithful spies. The Nephilim connection is weak. I’ll let it spies. The Nephilim connection is weak. I’ll let it go.go.

Remember; In Deuteronomy 3 we learn

The bed of Og, king of Bashan was “nine nine cubits long and four cubits broad, by the cubits long and four cubits broad, by the cubit of a mancubit of a man.”

A cubit has supposedly been at different times and places 16 inches to 24 inches, (and more for special purposes, but this is not special.) Og’s bed was about thirteen to eighteen feet long by six to eight feet wide. Why so big? The context seems to indicate that it was because of his size.

Does it really have to do with SIZE?

GoliathGoliath

Now consider Goliath. The description of him centered on his size.

My Bibles say he was “six cubits and a span.” By the normal cubits we know of that’s about nine to twelve feet tall.

The Septuagint and the historian Josephus have him shorter. Josephus says, “Goliath, of the city of Gath, a man of vast bulk, for he was of four cubits and a span.” That’s around six feet eight to almost nine feet. Which is right? Let’s look at more information.

Goliath’s Fish-scale Goliath’s Fish-scale mail coat weighed mail coat weighed 5000 shekels. A 5000 shekels. A shekel being .025 shekel being .025 lb, this armor lb, this armor weighed 125 weighed 125 pounds.pounds.

Goliath’s EquipmentGoliath’s Equipment

Goliath’s spear was “like a weaver’s beam.” What’s that like ?????

The beam of the looms pictured is the horizontal piece at top.There is information about weaving one can There is information about weaving one can glean from the Bible. Exo 26:2 KJV says, “The glean from the Bible. Exo 26:2 KJV says, “The length of one curtain shall be eight and twenty length of one curtain shall be eight and twenty cubits, and the breadth of one curtain four cubits: cubits, and the breadth of one curtain four cubits: and every one of the curtains shall have one and every one of the curtains shall have one measure.” This set of ten curtains was the inner measure.” This set of ten curtains was the inner layer of the Tabernacle.layer of the Tabernacle.

Clue to size of a “weaver’s beam”Clue to size of a “weaver’s beam”

In Exo 26:8 another set, of eleven curtains, In Exo 26:8 another set, of eleven curtains, made longer apparently to extend beyond made longer apparently to extend beyond the ones mentioned above, were also four the ones mentioned above, were also four cubits wide. One more of these was made, cubits wide. One more of these was made, so they could overlap on all sides. Four so they could overlap on all sides. Four cubits was perhaps just the maximum cubits was perhaps just the maximum capacity of their looms.capacity of their looms.

Curtains four cubits wide (about six feet or Curtains four cubits wide (about six feet or more) would be woven on looms with more) would be woven on looms with wider beams – say, about eight to ten wider beams – say, about eight to ten feet? And then add the spear point.feet? And then add the spear point.

Goliath’s spear head alone weighed 600 Goliath’s spear head alone weighed 600 shekels; or 15 pounds. That’s another foot shekels; or 15 pounds. That’s another foot

or two to the eight or ten foot shaft.or two to the eight or ten foot shaft.

Assembled, Goliath’s spear would be around Assembled, Goliath’s spear would be around nine to eleven or more feet longnine to eleven or more feet long..

A friend who has been in Medieval-style A friend who has been in Medieval-style fighting competition tells me spears tend fighting competition tells me spears tend to be about the height of the warrior to be about the height of the warrior wielding them. Photos and drawings I have wielding them. Photos and drawings I have seen suggest the spear is a little longer.seen suggest the spear is a little longer.

Thus Goliath’s approximate height at nine Thus Goliath’s approximate height at nine or ten feet is confirmed by the size of his or ten feet is confirmed by the size of his spear.spear.

What other “giants” does the Bible speak What other “giants” does the Bible speak of? of?

The spear is the right size

Other Giants Killed by David and Other Giants Killed by David and His MenHis Men

2Samuel 21:16 and 192Samuel 21:16 and 19 And And IshbibenobIshbibenob, which was of the sons of , which was of the sons of

the giant (the giant (Rephaim)Rephaim), the weight of whose , the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekelsspear weighed three hundred shekels(7.5 (7.5 lbs)lbs) of brass in weight, he being girded of brass in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain with a new sword, thought to have slain David. David.

And it came to pass after this, that there And it came to pass after this, that there was again a battle with the Philistines at was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob: then Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Gob: then Sibbechai the Hushathite slew SaphSaph, which was of the sons of the giant. , which was of the sons of the giant. ((Rephaim)Rephaim)

Other Giants Killed by David and Other Giants Killed by David and His MenHis Men

And there was again a battle in Gob with the And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the brother of Goliath the GittiteGittite, the staff of whose spear was like a , the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beamweaver's beam. (2Sa 21:16 KJV). (2Sa 21:16 KJV)

And there was a battle again with the Philistines; And there was a battle again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi, the and Elhanan the son of Jair killed Lahmi, the brother of Goliath the Gittite the wood of whose brother of Goliath the Gittite the wood of whose spear was like the weavers' beam. (1Ch 20:5 LITV)spear was like the weavers' beam. (1Ch 20:5 LITV)

And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was aAnd there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in numberin number; and he also was born to the giant. ; and he also was born to the giant. ((Rephaim)Rephaim) (2Sa 21:18-20 KJV) (2Sa 21:18-20 KJV)

Giants of myth, legend, and the Internet

With no restraint from reality, myths and legends serve up a diet of mountainous persons and beasts.

The Internet, with wild abandon, is a riot of truth and fiction. Hard to differentiate, the tales of giants are as much there to deceive a to inform.

How Big Could They Have Been?How Big Could They Have Been?

My question was, “Wouldn’t there be a limitation My question was, “Wouldn’t there be a limitation for increasing size? The mass increases as the for increasing size? The mass increases as the cube of the length but the area of the bone only cube of the length but the area of the bone only increases as the square.” My thought was that increases as the square.” My thought was that the body mass increases faster than muscle the body mass increases faster than muscle strength.strength.

““There are limits,” I was told, “but we do know There are limits,” I was told, “but we do know that there were very large bipedal creatures, you that there were very large bipedal creatures, you know, dinosaurs...”know, dinosaurs...”

Dinosaurs were reptiles, whose structure is Dinosaurs were reptiles, whose structure is different. Their bipeds were long, but only as different. Their bipeds were long, but only as much as about 15 feet tall, quadrupeds could be much as about 15 feet tall, quadrupeds could be taller. How big were mammals?taller. How big were mammals?

BALUCHITHERIUMBALUCHITHERIUMaka Indricotheriumaka Indricotherium

18 FEET AT THE SHOULDER

The largest fossil land mammals The largest fossil land mammals known are called Baluchitherium, known are called Baluchitherium, since they were found in since they were found in Baluchistan. They are considered Baluchistan. They are considered a rhinoceras, only without a a rhinoceras, only without a horn. How large were they?horn. How large were they?

Hundreds of their bones Hundreds of their bones have apparently been have apparently been found, including this found, including this skull.skull.

Source: Source: http://bioweb.wku.eduhttp://bioweb.wku.edu

Source: www.carnivoraforum.comSource: www.carnivoraforum.com

At that size, Who Needs a Horn?At that size, Who Needs a Horn?

Source: http://gaia2148.catSource: http://gaia2148.cat

The Red Bull of Catul Hayuk, The Red Bull of Catul Hayuk, TurkeyTurkey

Depicted on a stone in a ruined city which apparently worshiped Depicted on a stone in a ruined city which apparently worshiped horned bulls. Except for the horns, it’s as if a baluchitherium had horned bulls. Except for the horns, it’s as if a baluchitherium had wandered into town. What if the horns were artistic license? Or if the wandered into town. What if the horns were artistic license? Or if the event was an old story which had gained horns in the telling by the event was an old story which had gained horns in the telling by the time of this painting?time of this painting?

Nephilim, however, were not giant beasts.Nephilim, however, were not giant beasts.

source, source, The World’s Last MysteriesThe World’s Last Mysteries, Readers Digest , Readers Digest Assoc. 1981Assoc. 1981

The Bible’s giants were HumansThe Bible’s giants were Humans

The Bible does not present the The Bible does not present the Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, etc. as Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, etc. as anything other than Human. How big anything other than Human. How big do humans get?do humans get?

Documenting finds now is so easy. Documenting finds now is so easy. Pictures of an incident in one place Pictures of an incident in one place can be all over the world in seconds. can be all over the world in seconds. What is on the internet?What is on the internet?

Is Seeing Believing?Is Seeing Believing?Roger Lenard Roger Lenard opened his opened his discussion of discussion of giant skeleton giant skeleton finds with this finds with this picture, without picture, without comment, for comment, for visual impact. In visual impact. In Q&A, he Q&A, he admitted that he admitted that he hadn’t hadn’t investigated this investigated this one as one as thoroughly as he thoroughly as he normally would, normally would, but had found it but had found it on a web site he on a web site he counts counts respectable.respectable.

Watch out. The Internet is a jungle.Watch out. The Internet is a jungle.

MammothMammoth

Look Familiar? What was Cornell University digging up Look Familiar? What was Cornell University digging up here?here?

http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2007/12/photogalleries/giantskeleton-pictures/index.html

"The image was lifted from Worth1000, a Web site that hosts contests for digital artists. Created by an artist using the alias IronKite, the picture placed third in a 2002 competition titled "Archaeological Anomalies 2," which asked contestants to create a hoax archaeological discovery.”

““As if one fake giant skeleton weren't As if one fake giant skeleton weren't enough, other images across the enough, other images across the Internet have bolstered claims of Internet have bolstered claims of

massive human remains.”massive human remains.”

With a bit of effort, we could probably find this guyWith a bit of effort, we could probably find this guy

In anybody’s backyard!In anybody’s backyard!

But the existence of fakes does not prove But the existence of fakes does not prove real ones don’t exist!real ones don’t exist!

Why do I think there’s a limit?Why do I think there’s a limit?

Weight of a body increases with its Weight of a body increases with its volume. (Heightvolume. (Height33))

Compressive strength of a bone Compressive strength of a bone increases with its cross-sectional area. increases with its cross-sectional area. (Diameter(Diameter22))

Lifting strength of a muscle increases Lifting strength of a muscle increases with its cross-sectional area.(Diameterwith its cross-sectional area.(Diameter22))

That is, unless bone structure, muscle That is, unless bone structure, muscle tone, and/or average body density tone, and/or average body density changes.changes.

BONE STRENGTHBONE STRENGTH

Mechanically, the Mechanically, the leg bones are leg bones are “compressive “compressive members” of the members” of the skeletal framework skeletal framework of the human body. of the human body. Their strength is Their strength is dependent on the dependent on the cross-sectional cross-sectional area.area.

If a femur is expanded proportionally If a femur is expanded proportionally to twice its former length, the cross-to twice its former length, the cross-sectional area becomes four times as sectional area becomes four times as great. Like four pillars joined together, great. Like four pillars joined together, its strength is quadrupled.its strength is quadrupled.

Muscle StrengthMuscle Strength

Muscles are bundles Muscles are bundles of individual cells, of of individual cells, of about the same size about the same size and strength, pulling and strength, pulling together. Muscle together. Muscle pull strength is an pull strength is an aggregate of the aggregate of the pull strength of all pull strength of all the muscle cells the muscle cells working in parallel working in parallel with each other. with each other.

But the But the total numbertotal number of cells of cells increases as the increases as the cubecube of the length! of the length! True. The muscle cells contract linearly, so True. The muscle cells contract linearly, so

cells linked end to end pull farther, not cells linked end to end pull farther, not stronger.stronger.

Thus the muscle Thus the muscle strength is strength is proportional to the proportional to the muscle cross-muscle cross-sectional area, sectional area, which increases as which increases as the square of the the square of the height.height.

How the Strength and Weight How the Strength and Weight IncreaseIncrease

Take as a starting point Roger’s proposed Take as a starting point Roger’s proposed six foot, 250 pound six foot, 250 pound weight lifter capable of lifting 1.5 times his own weight.weight lifter capable of lifting 1.5 times his own weight.

That That lift capacitylift capacity then is 375 pounds. While holding that up he also then is 375 pounds. While holding that up he also supports his own supports his own 250 pound body250 pound body, for a total of 625 pounds. , for a total of 625 pounds.

If he grew to 9 feet tall, keeping all the same proportions, muscle If he grew to 9 feet tall, keeping all the same proportions, muscle tone and tissue density, his tone and tissue density, his lift capacitylift capacity should become about should become about 1406.25 pounds (1.5 x 1.5 x 625 lb). 1406.25 pounds (1.5 x 1.5 x 625 lb).

His His body weightbody weight would go from 250 pounds to 843.75 (1.5 x 1.5 would go from 250 pounds to 843.75 (1.5 x 1.5 x1.5 x 250). x1.5 x 250).

The strength increases by a factor of 2.25 while the The strength increases by a factor of 2.25 while the body weightbody weight increases by a factor of 3.375. The weight is catching up with the increases by a factor of 3.375. The weight is catching up with the strength.strength.

The way this develops is depicted in the following chart.The way this develops is depicted in the following chart.

Weight versus Strength

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10000.00

20000.00

30000.00

40000.00

50000.00

60000.00

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36

Height

TOTAL CAPACITY (lbs) BODY WEIGHT (lbs)

6ft. Standard

54000lbs

22500lb

s

Capacity Capacity 625625

Note the body weight Note the body weight surpasses the total strength surpasses the total strength at a height of about 15 ft.at a height of about 15 ft.

StrengthStrength

WeightWeight

Weight versus Strength

0.00

10000.00

20000.00

30000.00

40000.00

50000.00

60000.00

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36

Height

TOTAL CAPACITY (lbs) BODY WEIGHT (lbs)

6ft. Standard

Let’s take a closer look at the front Let’s take a closer look at the front end of the original graph.end of the original graph.

Capacity Capacity 625625

Weight vs. Strength

17.36 69

.44 156.2

5 277.7

8 434.0

3 625.0

085

0.69

1111

.11

1406

.25

1736

.11

2100

.69

2500

.00

1.16 9.

2631

.25 74.07 14

4.68

250.0

0 396.9

9 592.5

984

3.75

1157

.41

1540

.51

2000

.00

0.00

500.00

1000.00

1500.00

2000.00

2500.00

3000.00

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Height

Po

un

ds

TOTAL CAPACITY (lbs) BODY WEIGHT (lbs)

The lower line is body weight. Note how it is The lower line is body weight. Note how it is curving up toward the “TOTAL CAPACITY” line.curving up toward the “TOTAL CAPACITY” line.

Lift Capacity as a Percentage of Lift Capacity as a Percentage of Body WeightBody Weight

Our proposed 6 ft weight lifter can lift Our proposed 6 ft weight lifter can lift 150% of his body weight. Shrink him 150% of his body weight. Shrink him to 3 ft, and his weight becomes 31.25 to 3 ft, and his weight becomes 31.25 lb, while his total capacity drops to lb, while his total capacity drops to 156.25. Subtract his new weight of 156.25. Subtract his new weight of 31.25 from that and his lift capacity is 31.25 from that and his lift capacity is 125 pounds, which is 400 percent of 125 pounds, which is 400 percent of his weight. The next graph shows how his weight. The next graph shows how that develops in the wide range.that develops in the wide range.

PERCENT LIFT CAPACITY

1400

%

650%

400%

275%

200%

150%

114%

88%

67%

50%

36%

25%

15%

7% 0% -6%

-12%

-17%

-21%

-25%

-29%

-32%

-35%

-38%

-40%

-42%

-44%

-46%

-48%

-50%

-52%

-53%

-55%

-56%

-57%

-58%

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36

Height in Feet

6ft. Standard

Note the 400% figure at the three foot Note the 400% figure at the three foot point.point. And the 0% at 15 foot, meaning And the 0% at 15 foot, meaning

pretty much he couldn’t do anything.pretty much he couldn’t do anything.

The 1 footer should be able to lift 14 The 1 footer should be able to lift 14 times his own weight!times his own weight!

Strength of The very smallStrength of The very small

Have you heard that researchers have Have you heard that researchers have found ants carrying over a hundred times found ants carrying over a hundred times their own weight?their own weight?

According to this calculation method, if we According to this calculation method, if we shrink our weight lifter to ¼ inch tall, he shrink our weight lifter to ¼ inch tall, he should be able to lift 287 times his weight.should be able to lift 287 times his weight.

However, the soft skin over such powerful However, the soft skin over such powerful muscles would be poor armor at this size.muscles would be poor armor at this size.

Perhaps that’s why animals this small Perhaps that’s why animals this small usually have a hard exoskeleton.usually have a hard exoskeleton.

Limits at the ExtremesLimits at the Extremes

The calculations in this study are done as The calculations in this study are done as though human bodies could be very much though human bodies could be very much bigger or very much smaller without bigger or very much smaller without anything but gravitation becoming an issue.anything but gravitation becoming an issue.

In a very large body, speed of nerve In a very large body, speed of nerve impulses and blood transport would start to impulses and blood transport would start to be a serious factor.be a serious factor.

Some blood vessels are already small Some blood vessels are already small enough so red blood cells go through single-enough so red blood cells go through single-file. How small can a pinky get and still have file. How small can a pinky get and still have veins?veins?

LIFT CAPACITY

0

100

200

300

400

500

600

700

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

HEIGHT

LIF

T

Who fits Who fits in the in the space space with the with the highest highest availablavailable e power?power?GOLIATH

How much could these people lift, after they’ve lifted their own weight?

Was Goliath The Most Terrible Single-Combat

Competitor Possible?

Available “Operational Available “Operational Strength”Strength”

Subtract out the body weight from the total capacity Subtract out the body weight from the total capacity and you get this graph.and you get this graph.

At about 15 feet, it’s all he can do At about 15 feet, it’s all he can do to stand.to stand.

So, are all So, are all big big

people people Nephilim?Nephilim?

There are giants among us!There are giants among us!

Wilt Chamberlain, Wilt Chamberlain, Arnold Arnold

Schwarzeneggar, Schwarzeneggar, & Andre the Giant& Andre the Giant

Robert Robert Wadlow, Wadlow, Guinness Guinness

record holderrecord holder

Unnamed Unnamed brothers-in-law, brothers-in-law,

3 feet, and 3 feet, and (supposedly) 9 (supposedly) 9 feet 4 inches feet 4 inches ((GrowthGrowth, Life , Life

Science Library) Science Library)

Do they have souls?Do they have souls?I expect so!I expect so!

These figures show sizes of These figures show sizes of skeletal remains reputed to skeletal remains reputed to have been found in history, have been found in history, relative to a six footer, “A”relative to a six footer, “A”

A slide used by Roger LenardA slide used by Roger Lenard

A more readable version of the chart, obtained from Henry A more readable version of the chart, obtained from Henry Johnson at the Institute of OmniologyJohnson at the Institute of Omniology

Where’s the Where’s the documentation? Not here, documentation? Not here, and aside from scripture, and aside from scripture,

and second-hand (or and second-hand (or worse) accounts, I have yet worse) accounts, I have yet

to find real evidence of to find real evidence of anyone bigger than anyone bigger than

Goliath.Goliath.

Beyond GoliathBeyond Goliath

Thus far, it seems unlikely that Thus far, it seems unlikely that humans much larger than Goliath ever humans much larger than Goliath ever walked the Earth. On the other hand walked the Earth. On the other hand even the scant testimony of the even the scant testimony of the previous slide does not actually claim previous slide does not actually claim those giants walked.those giants walked.

If someone were to grow too large to If someone were to grow too large to stand, they may nevertheless be cared stand, they may nevertheless be cared for, perhaps as some kind of deity.for, perhaps as some kind of deity.

We still await evidence of such giants.We still await evidence of such giants.

A note about Biblical TestimonyA note about Biblical Testimony Remember the slide in which Henry Johnson lines Remember the slide in which Henry Johnson lines

up eight images representing reported giants.up eight images representing reported giants. Each giant is given a definite height, from little Each giant is given a definite height, from little

Caesar Maximinus Thrax at 8’6” to nameless 36’ Caesar Maximinus Thrax at 8’6” to nameless 36’ skeletons claimed by Carthaginians.skeletons claimed by Carthaginians.

The accounts of giants in scripture are not so The accounts of giants in scripture are not so neatly documented. neatly documented.

A specific height is given for Goliath, but not for A specific height is given for Goliath, but not for the rest. The size of Og’s bed, the size of spears, the rest. The size of Og’s bed, the size of spears, general references to these people being big.general references to these people being big.

What I see is honest accounts written down after What I see is honest accounts written down after battles when the actual bodies were no longer battles when the actual bodies were no longer available for measurement.available for measurement.

These accounts do not read like made These accounts do not read like made up stories. Such evidence as was still up stories. Such evidence as was still available or remembered was written available or remembered was written down without embellishment.down without embellishment.

The very sketchiness of the accounts The very sketchiness of the accounts is evidence of their authenticity.is evidence of their authenticity.

Little evidences like this, perhaps, are Little evidences like this, perhaps, are what prompted Isaac Newton to what prompted Isaac Newton to declare, declare,

““We account the Scriptures of God to We account the Scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. I be the most sublime philosophy. I find more sure marks of authenticity find more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane in the Bible than in any profane history whatever.”history whatever.”

Source; The New Dictionary of Thoughts A Cyclopedia of Source; The New Dictionary of Thoughts A Cyclopedia of Quotations by Tryon Edwards, © 1936 by Orsamus Turner Quotations by Tryon Edwards, © 1936 by Orsamus Turner HarrisHarris

Giants of legend can be so large as to Giants of legend can be so large as to represent forces of nature.represent forces of nature.

Paul Bunyan is supposed to have built Paul Bunyan is supposed to have built mountains and carved the Grand Canyon.mountains and carved the Grand Canyon.

The Gigantes of Greek myth “did” similar The Gigantes of Greek myth “did” similar wonders.wonders.

The Giants of the Bible were not forces of The Giants of the Bible were not forces of nature. nature.

They did not stand taller than flesh and bone They did not stand taller than flesh and bone could hold. Offspring of angels? Perhaps, but could hold. Offspring of angels? Perhaps, but their bodies were nevertheless subject to their bodies were nevertheless subject to natural, physical law.natural, physical law.

God did miracles. The Biblical giants did not.God did miracles. The Biblical giants did not.

ConclusionConclusion Skeptics seek to characterize Bible stories as irrational; Skeptics seek to characterize Bible stories as irrational;

physically impossible. They say the Ark was too small for the physically impossible. They say the Ark was too small for the job job

until they decide it was too big to be built.until they decide it was too big to be built. Goliath is counted as fictitious as Bunyan, yet close Goliath is counted as fictitious as Bunyan, yet close

examination shows the human side of Biblical stories are examination shows the human side of Biblical stories are within limits of physical reality. within limits of physical reality.

In fact, the size attributed to Goliath may actually be near the In fact, the size attributed to Goliath may actually be near the right size for the ultimate single-combat warrior.right size for the ultimate single-combat warrior.

The opponents of scripture are not bound much by ideological The opponents of scripture are not bound much by ideological honesty. honesty. For many it is more important for their thesis For many it is more important for their thesis to be believed than for them to be right.to be believed than for them to be right.

Science cannot prove these events happened, especially since Science cannot prove these events happened, especially since some “data” is misunderstood or misrepresented. some “data” is misunderstood or misrepresented.

Science Science cancan shed light on natural possibilities and shed light on natural possibilities and implications.implications.

Christians need not accept the testimony of scripture in Christians need not accept the testimony of scripture in SPITESPITE of the evidence.of the evidence.

Christians can believe the testimony Christians can believe the testimony in LIGHT of the evidence.in LIGHT of the evidence.

THE SCIENCE THE ATHEISTS DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW