17717. MR. YENGWJ1

learned friends know what documents they want; ay learn-ed friend can get what docuaents he wants at a moment's notice, my lords. He knew at the conclusion of our cross examination he'd have to re-examine the witness.

MR. KENTRIDGE: I'm referring, my lords, I can assure my learned friend, to some documents which are not exhibits in this case. The exhibits in this case we do have, my lords, but there are one or two documents which are not exhibits in the case which arise out of certain questions which my learned friend asked. I apologise to my learned friend for putting him out, my lords.

RUMPFF J: Is it necessary to have the re-examination postponed until then? Will you be some time in re-examina-tion?

MR. KENTRIDGE: I think, my lord, that my re-examination would take about half an hour or so; we do have another witness, my lord, to go on immediately. I could do part of my re-examination, my lord.

RUMPFF J: I'm only suggesting that if it were two or three docuaents that could stand over, if you could go on in the meantime.

MR. KENTRIDGE; Well, I can do part of it and have these documents stands over, my lord.

RUMPFF J: Is it only on the document that you ask for your re-examination to stand over?

MR. KENTRIDGE: Only that, my lord. There is some of the re-examination I could do immediately if my learned friend and the Court would prefer it.

RUMPFF J: Yes, well, we think it would be better if you go on, and then when you want these documents then

17718. MR. YENGWA

we can let the witness stand down . MR, KENTRIDGE; Yes, my lord.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. KENTRIDGE; Mr. Yengwa, in the first place I just want to refer you to a periodical called 'Afrika'. You originally said that there was an 'Afrika' which was published in 1952 by the African National Congress and the Natal Indian Congress?— That is correct.

I'd just like to show you a photostatic copy of Exhibit No. PDN.99 which is called 'Afrika No.5 4th December, 1952', African National Congress and Natal Indian Congress, published in Durban. I just want you to identify it. Is that the one you were referring to ? — This is the one I was referring to, my lord.

Now I want to refer you to the other 'Afrika', that is the one that was put to you by my learned friend - that is MBY.6, 'Afrika1, Journal of the A.N.C. Youth League. Now my learned friend put to you certain parts of it. I just want to put you certain other parts, to make it quite clear what this article about the New Africa was referring to. At the top of the page you were referred to, that is page 3, it reads: "The Democratic Republic of New Africa that we have in vision - Black Africa comprising the whole territory, at least South of the Sahara.' Does that appear to refer to the whole of Africa? To the whole of Africa south of the Sahara ? — Yes.

And then the article goes on to say 'The rivers of the new Africa are big, they are the great

17719. MR. YENG-WA

lakes, Nyassa, Tanganyika, Nyanza.' Now that on the surface appears to refer not only to the Union of South Africa but to the whole of Africa?— That is correct.

Did the African National Congress have any policy of having a State in the whole of Africa, or Africa South of the Sahara?— No, my lord. y

And then this author goes on to suggest that the National language of the new Africa should be Swahili; was that ever the policy of the African National Congress ? — No, my lord.

10 You were asked certain questions about the

Communist Manifesto, Mr. Yengwa. Can you tell me when you read the Communist Manifesto, approximately?— I think the last time I read it was in 1948, my lord, and it was actually - - I wasn't studying it, it was just 15 recommended reading.

It was recommended reading?— Yes. Recommended by who?— By my Professor in Economics. At what University?— The University of Natal, I see. You were also referred to certain state- 20

ments about Dingaan and Chaka and people like that. I think to make it clearer I'd like to put to you expressly what was said in the document, 'Dr. Naicker Speaks1, C.520. The words used were, 5We recall the gallant struggle waged by the Zulu people under Dingaan, and 25 Setwayo; we recall the struggle of the Xosa nation under the leadership of such great men as Hintza, Zandale, Nongowuze and others. We recall with pride the struggle led by Moshesh and Kama on behalf of their people, the Abatsotoe and Abatswane respectively.1 And then he 30 says, "We recall also the more recent history of contri-

17720: MR. YENG-WA

butions made by gallant fighters for freedom. To my mind 1 comes immediately the name of Johannes Nkosi who was killed in 1930, when he led the African people of Durban in their struggle against the obnoxious Pass Laws. We recall the case of an old woman freedom fighter, Mrs. Balyama, who fought and later died in prison during the great Passive Resistance struggle led by Mahatma G-handi when he was in South Africa. And of Kinkinsame who was beaten up by hooligans during the Passive Resistance struggle of 1946. We also recall the death in prison of Miss Senene Msokozele who died during the recent Defiance Campaign in a gaol in the Eastern Cape.1

Now, that is what is in this document by Dr. Naicker. Now these references to people like Dingaan and Setchwayo - did you regard them as being some sort of call to war

15 ? — No, my lord, not at all.

Have you ever come across - - well, I can put it to you directly. You are aware that in this country every year on December 16th a section of the population recalls certain historic events at Blood River?— Yes. 20

Do you regard there being any sinister in that ? — No, my lord.

Do you regard it as a call to renewed warfare ? — No, my lord.

Now' Mr. Yengwa, you were asked about your 25 father. It was put to you that the incident in 1919 of Pass burning in which he took part was a breach of the law. Do you accept that?— Well, my lord, it was Pass burning, and of course, pass burning would entail a breach of the law. 30 Do you think that the police may have been

17721 MR. YENG-WA

entitled to arrest your father?— Yes, my lord, they were x

entitled to arrest hin, , Do you think they were entitled to assault him

? — No, my lords. You were asked why you resented the presenoe

of armed police at meetings and you explained. Would you regard your attitude as a peculiarly African National Congress attitude, resenting armed police at meetings?— No, my lord.

Do you think other political organisations might resent it?— Yes, my lord, I have no doubt about it.

You were also asked about the duties of volun-teers as called for by Mr. Luthuli, including duties with regard to the Western Areas. Was there any plan

15 for volunteers from outside Western Areas, that is from Durban, to travel up to the Western Areas?— I know of no such plan.

Yes. There was also mention made in your cross examination, following your examination-in-chief, 20

of Dr. Kumah, a former President of the African National Congress. It was put to you that the African National Congress after 1949 regarded him as a vascillating reac-tionary, I think the phrase was, and the suggestion was that he had broken away, or that he was no longer re- 25 garded as being in the struggle. Do you remember that, Mr. Yengwa, being put to you?— Yes.

Now, Mr. Yengwa, you have been an accused in this Court in a trial which began in August, 1958; you were indicted with 90 other people?— That is so. 30

17722, MR. YENGWA

And in the Indictment in that trial in which you were charged with High.Treason, Dr. Kumah was charged with having been a co-conspirator with you and the other African National Congress members?— That is correct, my lord.

In connection with a similar theory to that which we are.....?— That is correct.

Now whether or not he was a co-conspirator, during this period, after he had resigned from the Presidency in 1949> was he still regarded as a supporter of the African National Congress?— Yes.

And as a member?— Yes, my lord. You have in this Court expressed certain views

about the nature of the Dsfiance Campaign, and the general nature of African National Congress political activities - of its land policy, and its economic outlook.- - its general political viewpoint; have you ever spoken in those terms to members of the African National Congress ? — Yes, my lord, many, many times.

Were you often asked to speak at public meet-ings, at times when you were not banned?— Yes, my lord.

My lords, that is as far as I can go without the documents to which I referred, and they are docu-ments which are not exhibits, my lords.

RUMPFF J: Yes, well, we'll let this witness stand down until tomorrow morning.

MR. KENTRIDGE; I am indebted to your lordship. My lords, the next witness available will be called by my learned Leader, Mr. Fischer.

RUMPFF J: Yes.

17723. MR. BENGHU

ISAAC BHENGU S.S. (ZULU) ZD. BY MR. FISCHER; Mr. Bhengu, you are a Zulu and you were born in Greytown?— Yes.

In what year?— In 1879. And you now live in Ladystnith?— Yes, I am

there now. And that has been your hone ever since 1904?—

Yes, - tny lord. Although for many years you worked in Johannes-

burg?— Yes, my lord. I think you came to Johannesburg first to work

there in 1913?— Yes, ay lord. Then from about 1916 onwards I think you were an

office cleaner in Johannesburg?— Yes. And during the period from then until 1948 you

worked for three different buildings, in three different buildings?— Yes.

Which buildings were those?— General Mining, Locarno House, and the Scottish Tube Co.

Then in 1938 you left Johannesburg and I think you retired - - no, I'D sorry, in 1948 you left Johan-nesburg and retired to Ladysmith?— Yes, my lord.

When you were a boy in Greytown you went to School and I think you learnt to read and write Zulu?— Yes, ay lord.

Did you ever learn to read or write English?— No, tnylord.

When did you join the African National Congress ? — I joined the African National Congress in 1916.

Who was the leader of the African National Congress in those days?— John Dube.

17724. MR. BHENG-U

Was that the Rev. John Dube?— That is so. And do you know why the African National Con-

gress was brought into existence?— I know. Just very briefly what was the reason?— At the

time of the Union of South Africa, when the Union of South Africa was established, ay lord, they were doubtful about the laws, because it was then said that an African was not to be allowed to buy ground from a European, nor would he have the right to hire ground, and nor would you have any right to deposit or pay any money for the hire of ground.

So what was the idea - what was the African National Congress to do?— They then came together, my lord, and sent the Rev. John Dube to England to go and discuss these matters, and he was accompanied by two other men.

Now did he have any success?- - King G-eorge then said, my lord, they must come and lay their com-plaints to this Government here.

Do you know whether that was done?— Yes, they then came and spoke to this Government.

Was that a success?— No, my lord. And what did the African National Congress then

decide to do?— Then Chief Luthuli also came in with the ican National Congress.

Yes, I think that was very much later; I'm talking now of .the early days?— Well, nothing happened in the meantime.

Now, you've told us that you joined; did you know some of the leaders of those days?— Yes.

You've told us that you knew the Rev. John Dube;

17725o MR. BHENG-U

did you know men like Mabasa?— Yes, ay lord. And Vabasa?— Yes. And later did you know Selope Thema?— Yes,

they were with us. And Letange?— Kotane, ay lord....Letange,

sir. These were men who have been leaders of the

African National Congress in the past?— Yes, in the place of the Rev. John Dube was Mohgota.

Well, I think then that you continued being a member until about 1940?— Yes, my lord.

After that were you still active in 1940 to 1948?— Yes, my lord, I was still active in the African National Congress.

Still in it?— Yes; mostly just assisting in the office.

Well, then after you went to Ladysmith in 1948, was there a branch there when you got to Ladysmith ? — Not then.

When did it come into existence, the branch at Ladysmith?— It was started in 1950,

Did you have anything to do with the starting of the branch there?— Yes, I assisted as far as I could; I assisted Chief Kumalo

To start the branch in Ladysmith?— Yes, to start that branch*

Will you tell the Court why you people thought it was necessary to start a branch there?— That was according to a request of John Dube, that a branch be started there.

That the branch was started?— Not John Dube

17726. MR. BHENGU

himself actually; they followed John Dube's idea; other leaders who were there followed John Dube's idea and therefore started a branch.

Yes; now for what purpose was the branch started in Ladysmith?— The idea of starting a branch there of the organisation was to get members to belong to it, and eventually get people who would represent us in Parliament,,

I see. I want you to tell the Court, as you understand it, what the African National Congress has been working for in the time that you have been associated with it?— To be able to come to a stage where we could live together, stay together nicelt and eat together, and live together nicely.

When you say 'when we can live together', whom do you mean by 'we'?— All of us here, Europeans and non-Europeans .

Now that is what you say the African National Congress has been working for?— Yes.

Can you tell the Court, as you understand it, what has the African National Congress recommended as the method for working tor that?— By bringing the people together, letting the people come together, and letting the people understand and decide together what to do. And that requests should be made by all the people to-gether .

Bequests?— Requests, yes. To be made to whom?— To the Government. Has any one suggested - - have you ever heard

any one suggest that force or violence should be used?— No, my lord*

10

15

20

25

30

What would you say was the policy of the African National Congress in that respect?— By putting requests

to the Government, my lord.

Have you addressed public meetings?— Yes, many times, ay lord.

Meetings called by the African National Congress ? — Yes, my lord.

And did you explain to people how they should behave?— Yes, I always told them to behave themselves well.

Yes? Have you said anything about violence?— I emphasised, my lord, that nothing was required to be done by violence.

Now, from whom did you learn that that was the policy of the African National Congress?— Prom Chief I/uthuli and from all the others.

Has policy ever been anything different?— No, my lord. It was never anything else than that. We never departed from that.

Incidentally, are people allowed to come to meetings armed in any way?— No, not even a small stick.

Is that an instruction to people in your dis-trict?— Yes, they were told, my lord.

Do you tell people anything about how they are to behave in relation to the police?— They were told that even if the police came there armed, and even if they were antagonistic, the people must not be provoked; they must be quiet and must not do any back chatting or be cheeky.

I'llgo over in a moment to the activities in

17728. MR. BHENGU

the Ladysmith branch. I just want to ask you this, Mr. Bhengu. Are you a preacher in any church?— Yes, my lord.

Are you a full preacher?— In church I am known as an Elder.

What is your church?— Dutch Reformed. Now before the African National Congress was banned

how many branches had you people established in and around Ladysmith?— Three, my lord.

And about how many members did you have alto-gether before it was banned?— It would be more than 150.

Did you hold public meetings?— Yes. How often, about?— Public meetings once to twice

per month. I suppose it depended on whether there were big

questions to deal with, or whether there wasnot much to deal with?— Yes, my lord. If there were many things to be dealt with, more meetings were held.

Did the police attend those meetings?— When they knew about the meetings they came; when they heard about the meetings they came.

But were these public meetings held in the open?— In halls, my lord; in school halls.

And when the police came did they take notes?— Yes, my lord, they did.

Will you just tell the Court what sort of subjects were discussed in these public meetings?— Mostly, my lord, the taking away of ground which people had bought and which they owned. And about the young people who wanted employment, who were not then allowed any more to go to places like Durban and Johannesburg to go and seek employment.

17729f MR. BHENG-U

Yes?— And in regard to that, ay lord, the young people were also not allowed any more to even go and look for work in Ladysmith itself. There is an office where they were then supposed to go and this office found em-ployment for them.

Yes, that's one of the laws which regulate how people can look for work?— Yes, a Government law.

What other subjects did you discuss?— Many, my lord; for instance passes for women. People who lived on farms were chased away, they had no more cattle and they are chased away from the farms.

In general you discussed the grievances of the people?— Yes, many of them.

Who, generally speaking, was the speakers at these meetings?— Myself, my lord; Mtambo - - Umtambo, my lord.

Is that the man from Ladysmith?— Yes, my lord. So it was people from Ladysmith who spoke?—Yes.

And did you sometimes have speakers from other parts of the country?— Yes, at big meetings, my lord.

Can you give the Court some of the names of those people?— Yes, my lord. Chief Luthuli would come along; men like Simalane and others used to come along.

Who was Simalane?— Simalane, my lord, was a member of the African National Congress; he came from Durban.

Was he a leader in Natal?— Yes, he was the secretary I'm sorry, the Treasurer, my lord.

Any other names that you can mention?— Then there was a man Mabeta who used to come.

17730. MR. BHENG-U

Did you ever have Mr. Resha?— He came once. Did you ever have Mr. Yengwa?— Yes, he also

cane in the company of Chief Luthuli. And Mrc Gumede?-- Yes, Gumede also. Mapeta?— I have mentioned him already. Do you know what he does?— He wa® also a mem-

ber of the Durban Committee. Now you've listened to these speakers at Lady-

smith since you have been there?— Yes, my lord. Have you ever heard any of them addressing the

people and suggesting that the Congress should follow a policy of violence?— No, they said that the struggle must be one which must be non-violent.

Well, now, for a few of the things that ac-tually happened in your branch.

(COURT ADJOURNED).

17731.

COURT RESUMES ON THE 23RD SEPTEMBER, I960. APPEARANCES AS BEFORE.

MASSABALALA BONMMIE YENGWA, under former oath; EE-EXAMINATION BY MR. KENTRIDGE CONTINUED s

Mr. -^engwa, you were cross-examined about what you knew about certain incidents which you had mentioned in history such as Bulhoek or the Nkosi incident in Durban or the pass burnings in Johannesburg in 1919. Now you have said in your evidence in chief that in giving lectures5 you had used a Ibook called Time Longer ihan Rope by Roux?

That is correct. Was there anything in that book about these

matters? Yes, there was, My Lord. When this book was published, did you yourself 10

read it? Yes, My Lord, and many others. And did you have it in your possession? Yes. Do you know when this book was published whether

it was read by members of the African National Congress? Yes, My Lord, I know it was read by members of the 15

African National Congress. Now I have a copy of it here which I would like

you to identify. The title is Time Longer than Rope, a History of the Black man's struggle for Freedom in South Africa by Edward Roux, published in London in 1948. 20 Would you look at this and see whether this is the book which you have read and used? Yes, it is the book that I read and used.

I wish to just refer you to certain passages in it about some of those incidents. In one of these 25 chapters th^re is an account of this pass burning in

17732. (M.B. YENGWA)

Johannesburg in 1919, that is Ch^ter 11, in which the author gives the various reports of what took place, some of them conflicting, and this is the conclusion which he comes to on page 129 : "There is a kind of naive heroism in the spectacle of these thousands of Black men assembled 5 on Von Brandis Square, crying down with passes| but then no violence, surrendering their sticks, setting out their defiance of injustice with songs of Britannia, with cheers for England's King and President Wilson, only to have their meeting roughly dispersed by the police. 10 There was no meanness in them, but a dignity which might well have made their conquerors ashamed. South Africa may be notorious for the illuse and waste of her natural assets, but here is the most tragic instance. Of such

15 material as the men at Von Brandis Square meeting, what magnificent citizens might not have been made if justice and magnanimity had been accorded them." How does what is said there accord with the view which you accept of what took place? Yes, My Lord, it is in accord with the view that I accept. 20

Now there is also a chapter on what took place at Bulhoek. I won't read it all, but there are passages on page 144.•. MR. JUST I Gil BEKKER s

Didn't this witness say that he didn't know 25 anything about Bulhoek? MR. KENTRIDGE ;

I thought he said that all he knew about it was that there had been unnecessary shooting by the police. 30 MR. JUSTICE B.-iKKER s

I think - my impression was that he disclaimed

17733. (M.B. Y3NGWA)

any knowledge of the facts concerning Bulhoek, other than shooting. MR. KENT RIDGE s

Well, I think shooting by the police. Well, that is in this book, but then possibly one doesn't need to - 5 perhaps I can just put it this way to you. Apart from the facts, there are passages in this book which lay the blame on the police and on the military authorities? That is correct.

Then on the incident of the shooting of a man 10 called Nkosi at Cartwrights Flats in Durban, on page 256 of this book there is also a passage which I needn't read which suggests that he and other people were shot and killed by the police unnecessarily. Now did you accept that view of the Nkosi incident? Yes, My Lord, I did. 15

You were asked about the significance of phrases in a political context about "a day of reckoning" and that sort of thing. It was suggested to you that it - what it meant might depend on the context. I would like to put to you a use of that phrase, in the document which you were shown by my learned friend called No Easy Walk To Freedom, one finds in that document a reference to Africa, "the entire continent is seething with discontent, there a powerful revolutionary eruptions in the Gold Coast and Nige ria, Tunisia, Kenya, Rhodesia and South Africa, the oppressed people and the oppressors are at logger-heads. The day of reckoning between the forces of freedom and those of reaction is not very far off. I have not the slightest doubt that when that day comes, truth and justice will prevail". Now in this context, how wuld you understand the phrase "the day of reckoning"?

17732. (M.B. YENGWA)

Well, My Lord, I would understand it to mean that there will be a day when justice will prevail.

Does it or does it not suggest to you, a reference to a day of reckoning that it would be a day when violent revenge is taken? No, My Lord. 5

On the people who are now regarded as oppressors? No, My Lord, it doesn't suggest that.

I want to put to you other instances of the us a of phrases like "day of reckoning" in a political context in South Africa, and ask you to compare those 10 contexts with the context in which I have just read you the phrase. My Lord, before I start reading, I think I had better indicate to the Court what it is that I do wish to read. I wish to read examples of what we submit are similar phrases used by political organisations in 15

opposition, which we will in due course suggest have an innocent meaning, in order to show that in the context of South African political discussion, at least, this sort of phrase used by a party in opposition does not have a sinister context. I refer again to the Judgment of His 20 Lordship Mr. Justice Ludorf - I want to use this to show it is one of the things that is said in political language in South Africa and that people would not understand it in a sinister way. MR. JUSTICE BEKKER s 25

Does it really assist? Isn't the real point that it depends entirely on the context? ME. KENTRIDGE s

Yes, My Lord, it does, but we do want to show that part of the context if I might put it that way, 30

17732. (M.B. YENGWA)

is the common use of this sort of phrase in South African politics. MR. THENGOVE J

On behalf of the Crown, My Lord, I must object to that type of evidence being led through this witness. 5 He is merely being asked his opinion on what a phrase means in certain other political documents. Now the Crown concedes that "the day of reckoning", the meaning attached to that depends entirely on the context, but it is a question for argument My Lords as to what those 10

words mean in a particular document before the Court. My learned friend can hand in those documents if he wants to, if he wants to argue on them at a later stage, but to put them to this witness and ask him for his opinion, that type of evidence the Grown submits is irrelevant. 15 MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF :

You have no objection to these documents being put in through this witness. MR. TRENGOVE :

They can be put in, My Lords. 20 MR. KENTRIDGE s

My Lord, it would be convenient, at has arisen, I put them through this witness. The alternative might have to be to call a librarian. I wonder whether, My Lord, Your Lordship.... 25 MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF :

Let us put it this way. Unless he has seen this some time or another in the past. What he really says on what he thinks the meaning there is, is irrelevant, it is a matter for argument. 30

17732. (M.B. YENGWA)

MR. KENTRIDGE ? Well, he has said that it is a phrase which is

used in South African politics. My Lord, I have got these here in a booklet form. I wonder whether as a matter of convenience I should just read the very few passages 5 I want to read out to have them on record instead of putting the books in. MR. TRENGO YE s

As far as we are concerned, My Lord, they needn't even be read out. My learned friend... 10 MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ;

He doesn't want at a later stage to have - first of all he doesn't want to burden the record with the Exhibits. MR. TRENGOVE ; 15

If he wants to read them, My Lord, otherwise I suggest he could mark them and they could be typed into the record. MR. KENTRIDGE :

My Lord, perhaps I had better read them, they 20 are very short. MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF ;

Tell me, how does one get the context really unless one has the whole document? Shouldn't you put in the whole document? If you want to quote from it at 25 a later stage, then you quote from the book. You can read that small portion at this stage, and put the book

MR. KENTRIDGE s My Lord, I understand, and with great respect 30

17732. (M.B. YENGWA)

it seems that Your Lordship must he correct. Well, I am quoting My Lord from a booklet which quotes statements of members of the then Opposition Party during the period of 1940 to 1941, and it is a book called "South African Nationalism in the War, 1939-1945", and the first passage 5 is on page 15. This booklet is issued by the United Party, My Lord, and it gives the sources of all its quotations. The first one is Advocate F. G. Erasmus, quoted from Lie Burger, in which he is reported to have said in a context which appears, "The day of retribution and of 10 awakening is at hand". He made an appeal to Afrikaners to write down the names of the persecutors. Then at pages 27 - pages 26 to 27 there is a statement by Mr. Eric Louw, also reported from Die Burger in which he said, "The day of reckoning will come, we shall settle 15 accounts with the loyal dutch", and so on, My Lord. Similarly on page 27 there is a passage in which the same speaker talks of "the loyal Dutchman must feel that he is a branded renegade, a social cast away" and continues in that vein. The next passage is at page 35, a state- 20 ment by the late Prime Minister, Dr. Malan, in which he indicates that when a certain stage is reached, politi-cally, in connection with the republic, people who don't accept the republic will be regarded as committing high treason. My Lords, on page 89 there is a quotation from 25 General Kemp, a former Cabinet Minister, who said "The time of reckoning is coming and it will be and eye for an eye and a tocth for a tooth", and on page 93 there is another statement by Dr. Malan in which he said "If you interfe re with the Ossewa Brandwag you are encroaching 30

17732. (M.B. YENGWA)

on an Afrikaner institution, then Afrikanerdom will settle accounts with you about it in its own time and own way when the time comes", and on the same page there is a similar passage from General Kemp. Those My Lords, are the passages which we wish to put in to support this submission which we are making. ME. JUSTICE RUMPFF s

The cfh r book, Time Longer than Rope, has that been put in? MR. KENTRIDGE s

No, My Lord, that hasn't gone in. MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s

I think that should go in. MR. KENTRIDGE s

My Lord, the gjntleman who lent me the book would be rather upset. I wonder if we can have photo-static copies made of the passages I read or whether one. MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF 5

It may not be necessary. MR. KENTRIDGE s

The book will be available, My Lord. Now My Lord, as far as these passages are concerned, should the book be put in or shouldn't it? or should copies be made

of all the passages? This book can be put in. MR. JUSTICE BUMPFF : Yes. MR .KEN TEHXEWell, then I put in this book through the

Y witness. Mr. engwa, would you identify this as a book called South African Nationalism in the 1939-1945 War, published by the United Party? Yes.

This would be Z.24 My Lord. Mr. -^engwa, one final question for you arising out of some of the final

17732. (M.B. YENGWA)

questions put to you by my learned friend. From 1948 onwards, until the time when the - when you were arrested on a chargs of treason, what activities took up most of your time? Your own personal livelihood or Congress activities? Congress activities. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. KENTRILGE.

MR. K^NTRIDGa' s My Lord, Your Lordship will have noted that

this last witness comes from Durban. May I take it, My Lord that his further attendance can be excused? We know where to find him if he should be required. MR. JUSTICE BUMPFF ;

I take it you have no objection to the witness being excused? MR. HOoiiXTER s

No objection, My Lord. MR. JUSTICE RIJMPFF s

Yes, he will be excused.

17740. (I. BH2NGU)

ISAAC BHSNGU, under former oath; EXAMINATION BY MR. FISCHER CONTINUED s

Mr. Bhengu, yesterday afternoon you were still - you were telling the Court of the leading members of the African National Congress who spoke at Ladysmith. You heard other leading speakers at a National Conference which you attended, I think in 1954? Yes. 5

Con you give us some of their names? Chief Luthuli, Simelane, Dr. Conco..

That is the National Treasurer is it? Yes, Simelane, he is the treasurer of the Natal Branch.

No, it is the Dr. Conco who is here an Accused? 10 — Yes.

Did you ever hear Oliver Tambo speak? Yes, I heard him.

I want to go back to the work which you did at Ladysmith. Do you know what the M-Plan was? Yes. 15

Did you ever apply the M-Plan in Ladysmith? Yos, My Lord, we did try to use the M-Plan, but we

could not, because the people did not have the time. Now with regard to the Defiance Campaign, did

the Ladysmith Branch of the Congress take any part in 20 the Defiance Campaign? Yes, My Lord, we did preach (?), but we failed,

Did you do anything about a stay at home in 1950? Yes, we tried, but we failed.

Now I want you to talk about the Congress of the25 People. Did you do any work on that in Ladysmith? Yes, we did s^me work.

Just tell us briefly, did you call meetings? Yes, meetings in preparation.

17741. (I. BHENG-U)

Did you elect delegates? Yes. How many? Nine. Whore did those delegates go? They went to

Kliptown. •"•nd afterwards did they report on what had 5

happened? Yes, they made a report. And later did you see the Freedom Charter?

My Lord, I saw the Freedom Charter at a big meeting which was held in Durban.

Was it discussed there? Yes, a long dis- 10 cussion about it.

Incidentally, were volunteers ever recruited in Ladysmith? Yes, we did.

How many were recruited? We only got six. Did they take a pledge? They did. 15 Do you know what that pledge said? My Lord,

what was written in the pledge was that anybddy who takes the pledge will be obedient, will do what he is being told.

Did you hear about the Western Areas Campaign in the Transvaal? Yes, I heard about everything, but I 20 did not k n w where,,- when.

Did you in Ladysmith do anything about the removal from Sophiatown? My Lord, we had meetings and cur meetingswere very sore about that.

Did you not agree with the removal of people 25 from Sophiatown? We did not agree with that.

You "think it is in line with Congress policy? I was very much against the removal of people from Sophia-town, because I regard myself as one of the residents of Sophiatown. 30

17742. (I. BHENGU)

Did you actually have some property there? We had a company, and that company of ours had three properties in Sophiatown.

Did you lose any money through the removal? Yes, we lost money, we were compensated, but very little 5 from what our properties were worth.

Can you remember whether the Ladysmith Branch did anything about Bantu Education? Yes, it took a very wide step about that. My Lord, whilst we were on that aszrpaign, the A.N.C. then says we should wait, we 10 should not carry on with our campaign.

Did they postpone the date? Yes. The date for what? My Lord, the - those in

authority in the A.N.C. had realised that there was some-thing, because they said to us wo should not carry on 15 with the campaign anymore, that is by keeping the chil-dren at home, away from school.

That is the boycott campaign? Yes, the boycott of the schools.

Nov/ what about passes for women? What was 20 done about that? We took part in that as well.

Were any deputations sent anywhere? Yes, My Lord, there was a deputation of women that came to Pretoria here in regard to that.

That was to join in the demonstration here? 25 That is correct.

Before that, had anybody gone to the Native Commissioner? My Lord, yes, before our women came to the demonstration in Pretoria, they went to Maritz-burg, the Native Commissioner at Maritzburg, that was before they came to Pretoria.

17743. (I. BHENGU)

And...? Those women that had gone to Maritzburg were arrested.

What were they arrested for? They said it was because they held a procession in the streets.

Did they go to pprison? They did not, My 5 Lords. They were stopped and their names and addresses were taken.

Now I want to ask you one or two further things about the branch. Did you have study classes at Lady-smith? No. 10

Did the members of Executive do anything about educating members? Yes, My Lord, our Committee was well aware of that, that our members had to receive education.

What sort of education did they give? My 15 Lord, they were given education that they must be obedient, self-disciplined, even if the polic^should come and provoke them, assault them, they should not retaliate.

Did you ever use any lecture notes for that education? My Lord, I would not be sure about lecture 20 notes. We were teaching the people of what we knew about the organisation. There were papers that came, although we never used them, because wo wor-j teaching the people about what we knew.

I want to ask you whether you have attended 25 Natal Provincial Conferences of the African National Congress? Yes on many occasions.

Have you ever been thanked by any Europeans for your work that you have done? My Lord, I know of one thing that when we are at a meeting and there is a 30

17744. (I. BHENGU)

European, he would always stand up and say that the A.N.C. is setting a very good example and it wants peace in the'world.

What happened to you in the time of the Emergency this year? I was also detained, My Lord. 5

For how long? Three months and four days. You wore kept in gaol during that period?

Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. FISCHER. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF ANY OF THE ACCUSED. 10

MR. TRENGOVE : My Lord, just before my learned friend proceeds

with the cross-examination of this witness, in view of the fact that this book, Time longer than Rope is not being handed in, My Lord, and in view of the evidence given by the last witness, could I just ask that one or two Chapters from the Table of Contents be mentioned as being contained in this book. MR. JUSTICE RUMFFF ?

The names of the Chapters? Do you want to have that on record? MR. TRENGOVE s

Yes, that this book contains chapters on certain matters. MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF s

Have you any objection? MR. KENTRIDGE :

No, My Lord. MR. TRENGOVE :

According to the Table of Contents, My Lords,

17745. (I. BHENGU)

it contains Chapter 14 on the Rand Revolt and White South Africa, which deals with the Rand Strike in 1922. It also contains a chapter 16, African Trade Unions, which deals inter alia with the Rand Strike in 1946. j

ISAAC BHENGU CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. HOEXTER ; Mr. Bhengu, can you tell us please where you

were during the years 1952 to 1956? I was at Ladysmith. Were you at Rooshoom? Yes. Is that a village or can you tell us something

about this place called Roosboom? A place where Africans have bought (M).

Is it correct to say that you were active in attending meetings only from 1957 really? Prom 1957 to I960? Yes.

You mentioned yesterday to Their Lordships that one of the leaders that you had heard speak was the Accused Resha? Yes.

Was that an occasion in June, 1959 at Leonard's Township? It was across Indian's property near a football ground.

I am more concerned about the date. Was it last year? June last year? My Lord, I cannot give you the time, that is the date and the time, but one thing I know, Mr. Resha was arrested in Pietermaritzburg,

that was after he had left us. Immediately after he had left us, he was arrested in Pietermaritzburg.

Was this a freedom day celebration at which Accused Resha spoke? My Lord, what I remember it was the time of the potatoes. Mr. Resha in his speech did mention potatoes.

17746. (I. BHSNGU)

Was that in the winter of last year? No, I am not sure. I think it was in the winter, but I am not sure of the time when it was.

Was it last year? I think it was last year. MR. JtBTIC-5 B3KKER;

V/hat did he say about - what did Resha say about potatoes? My Lord, he spoke about how bad the production of the potatoes was, and of course then it was suggested that we leave off eating potatoes, and of course other things. 1

Did you leave off eating potatoes? Yes, we left off potatoes. MR. HOBXTER ;

When did you meet - when did you speak to Mr. Luthuli for the first time? In 1950. 1

Did you often hear him address meetings? Yes, My Lord.

Where? At the big meeting in Durban. When did you attend these big meetings in Durban?

My Lord, I am very sorry, because I did not write 2 down as to what month or when I was in Durban attending these meetings.

You told us yesterday that you know the policy of the African National Congress from what you have heard frok leaders? Yes. 2

Have you gained any knowledge of the policy of the African National Congress from reading any documents? My Lord, there were circulars that children used to read, but I gotit from my leaders and that was the same thing told over and over again. 3

17747. $1. BHENGU)

Whatwas that same thing told over and over again? They said we had to behave ourselves, not to cause any trouble. Even if the police come and attack violently, we should not retaliate.

So you did not read the documents that were 5 sent by theExecutive Council in Natal to your branch at Ladysmith? My Lord, I would not say that I did not read them altogether. Firstly my eyesight is failing me because of my age, and when those document used to come, younger people who still have their full powers of sight 10 they would read these documents.

Yesterday you were asked about the methods that the African National Congress recommended, and I understood you to say that the method of the African National Congress was to make requests to the government. 15

Did I understand you correctly? That is correct. And throughout the time that you have been a

member of the African National Congress, has that always been the method of the African National Congress? From the very inception it was a question of request to 20 the government.

As you understand the matter, is that the only method which the African National Congress will use? That is how I know it. My Lord yes, because when in all

25 deputations that have gone to see the government, taking the deputation that went to Pretoria, that went to Pietermaritzburg, those people were not violent, were not going there to go and fight. They were going there to go and ask. 30 NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. H0JXTER.

1774-8. (I. BHENG-U)

RE-EXAMINED BY MR. FISCHER : Mr. Bhengu, when you organised for a stay at

home in 1950, what did you try and get the people to do? My Lord, we wanted the people to stay at home so

that the White employers should realise the value of 5 the labour of the people, that by having that little bit of suffering they should realise.

And what would that little bit of suffering do? What would be the effect of that little bit of suffering?

My Lord, that little bit of suffering would have 10 caused the Europeans to go and approach the government and tell the government look, we are suffering, meet these people, grant what they want with their demands.

Do you think that would have an effect? Yes, that is the best medicine, the medicine that beats 15 all the other medicine, that is the best.

When you were carrying on the campaign against Bantu Education, what were you trying to do? MR. HOEXTER :

My Lords, I don't wish to interrupt my learned 20 friend, but that with respect doesnot arise from cross-examination. My learned friend examined the various campaigns, the Crown contented - the Crown didn't pursue this specific campaign any further, and I say with respect that this does not arise out of cross-examination.25 MR. JUSTICE BEKKER ;

What about your last question? MR. HOEXTER :

That was as to method. MR. JUSTICE B.JKKdR S 30

Aren't these methods?

17749• (I. BHENGU)

MR. HOEXTER ; The only method - I put the question in a

general form, My Lord. MR. JUSTICE BEKKER :

No matter how you put it, does it arise out of 5 'that question or not? MR. HOEXTER ;

With respect not, My Lord. The witness has given in chief evidence as to campaigns, he - as to methods, he is then asked in summary form questions 10 relating to method, the form of the method (?) is to be requested the government, yea or nay, he has given his reply to that. MR. JUSTICE RUMFFF ;

We think it arises out of the cross-examinaticn.15 MR. FISCHER s

Might I just ask this. What were you trying to get the people to do when you carried on a campaign against Bantu Education? My Lord, we thought by follow-ing this campaign we wanted - we thought that the 20 government would realise that we were against this educa-tion that the government was introducing, and therefore the government, realising that, by taking our children out of schools, then the government would realise, and then the government would give us the right education. 25

I was asking, what did they want the children to do? My Lord, we wanted the children to stay at home. Then the government would see that we hajre kept our children away from schools, and then the government would see how serious this thing is, and then the 30

17750. (I. GHENGU)

government would also realise that we do not want this type of education, hy withholding out children, then the government will give us the education we want.

Now I want to ask you whether you know whether there was at any time a change in the methods used hy 5 the African National Congress. I am not referring to a question of Hiolence or non-violence, I just want to know about the methods generally that they used? Yes, My Lord, I know thet there was a change. I know that in 1949 it was agreed upon th it another line would be 10 followed, because the old line of making these requests to the government falls on deaf ears.

Now I want to know whether you were ever on the committee of the Ladysmith Branch of the African National Congress? Yes, I am a member of the big 15 committee.

From what year? From 1950. Until the Congress was banned? That is

correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR. FISCHER. 20 WITNESS EXCUSED.

DAVID SEBOLAI, duly sworn; 25 EXAMINED BY MR. FISCHER s

You were born in 1903 at Smitsdrift? Yes. You went to school in Kimberley where you

passed Standard Six? Yes. Then you went to Tigerkloof for a four year 30

17751. (D. SEBOLAI)

in tailoring? Yes, My Lord. Aftor that you worked in Kimberley? Yes. As a messenger. I don't think you got back to

your trade of tailoring, until 1950? Yes. ^hen you set up your own business in which you 5

make clothes from the cloth people bring to you? Yes. I think that is in No. 2 Location, Kimberley?

Yes, My Lord. You joined a trade union in 1942? Yes. I think that was the African General Torkers 10

Union? Yes, My Lord. And you became a Committee member in 1947? Yes. You kt.pt an interest in this trade union even

after you had left employment? Yes, My Lord. And you became its Vice-Chairman in 1957? Yes.15 When did you join the African National Congress?

In 1947 My Lord. When you first joined, were you very active? Did

you attend meetings and so forth? No, My Lord. Why was that? On account of the work I was 20

doing at the time. Did you n^t get free time to go to meetings?

Yes. After you set up your own business in 1950, what

did you do then? After that I had mere time to attend 25 the meetings more regularly.

"nd did you attend the meetings? Yes. I would like you to tell the Court just why you

j.oined the African National Congress? Because I had attended meetings, and I heard speakers speaking at the 30

17752. (D. SEBOLAI)

meetings, and explaining about the workings of the A.N.C. and I heard it all and I was interested.

And what did those speakers say ab ut the working of the African National Congress? Because My Lord I understood from what was said that we could become 5 members of this organisation and that the people, the leaders of this organisation could receive our - would listen to our complaints and they would carry it forward and attend to our requests.

To try and remedy your complaints? Yes, 10 help us in all the difficulties we had, My Lord.

Had ycu actually attended meetings before 1947 when you joined? Yes, My Lord.

What would you say were the main objects of the African National Congress? What is it seeking to 15 attain? The African National Congress, My Lord, wanted the people of Africa to receive their rights.

What rights? For instance My Lord that they could choose their own representatives that they could send to parliament, to the big house, parliament, and 20 that those people whom they choose as representatives would try and obtain for the people those rights and benefits that they would like to have.

When you joined the Congress did you knowor did you find out what methods the Congress was going to 25 use to try and get these rights? I understood My Lord, that certain requests will be made to the govern-ment, representations will be made to the government, and if the government would not satisfy the people in their demands, then they would go furth r, as for 30 instance they would stay away from their work, and that

17753. (D. SEBOLAI)

they cou3d also approach the chief, My Lord, of the Native Commissioner's office - that is the Chief Native Commissioner.

^id you understand whether the methods to he used by the Congress were methods which would include 5 force or violence? I never heard about that, My Lord

about it being violent. Whatdid you hear about it? I always under-

stood, My Lord, that this was an organisation that wasn't going to do anything with force and virlence, but that 10 j it was going to try and obtain everything that it can obtain in a nice way.

Can you remember perhaps from whom you first heard that? Mr. Sesedi.

Who was he? He was the chairman, My Lord, 15 of the A.N.C. branch - of the Kimberley branch of the A.N.C.

Was that at the time when you joined? Yes. Did any other person tell you about this?

And then there was the Secretary, Mr. Modeya Ghotla. 20 Ho told you the same? Yes. Have you heard it from other people as well?

Yes, My Lord. Prom whom? Dr. Letele, Mr. Sechoareng,

they were at that time some of the leaders of the African 2 5 National Congress.

Dr. Letele is on the National Executive? At that time he was a member of the Kimberley Branch, I don't know about being on the National Executive.

And Sechoareng was a leader in Kimberley? 3C Yes. H

17754. (D. SEBOLAI)

Did you hear it from leading people from other provinces as well? A certain Mr. Matji was also there.

From Tort Elizabeth? And Mr. M tthews. Is that Mr. Joe Matthews? Yes. Now let us go on to a few of the things that .5

your branch did. Was there any organisation for the Defiance Campaign in Kimbarley? Yes, My Lord.

Were there people who went to gaol there? Yes, My Lord.

Who led them? The first group My Lord was 10 led by Dr. Letele.

Did your branch do anything about Bantu-Educa-tion? Nothing in particular, My Lord, except speeches where they referred to it, where it was discussed at meetings. 15

Were many meetings hold about it? About once to twice per month meetings were held in connection with that.

Woas any boycott undertaken? I think it was last year or so, My Lord, but recently, but there was a 20 boycott in regard to potatoes.

I'll come to that. What I an talking about is whether there was any boycott of schools? Not in Ki$berley.

Do you know why there was not a boycott then? 25 At that stage, My Lord, it was not quite plain yet,

the leaders had not quite explained that part of it, My Lord. The leaders were explaining it, but the people were rather difficult, My Lord, because they didn't quite follow My Lord what was being meant. 30

17755. (D. SEBOLAI)

Now turn to the Congress of the People. Did Kimberley send any representatives there? Yes, My Lord.

Later on when the Freedom Charter had been drawn, did the Kimberley Branch do anything about the Freedom Charter? In what sense? • 5

Did it discuss the Freedom Charter? Yes, it was discussed quite a lot.

•o you know whether people accepted it or not? Yes, My Lord, it was accepted.

What do you think is the importance of the 10 Freedom Charter, personally? A ccording to the Fraedom Charter, My Lord, this must be - it indicates peace and not war, or violence. We want peace.

So you think....? And further My Lord that in this country that the people will live together in a 15 nice way, happily.

People of all races? And that all people My. Lord will be under the same laws.

Do you remember anything about the Western Areas Removal Scheme? I heard about that. 20

And did the Kimberley Branch hold any meetings about it? YoS, many meetings were held in regard to that, where that was discussed.

What about passes fcr women? What did the Kimberley Branch do about that? Y^s, that was also 25 discussed.

And was anything done? Kimberley Branch sent a deputation to the Native Commissioner in regard to that.

"'hat was the effect of his reply? The 30

17756. (D. 3KB0LAI)

Native Commi ssicner said that that was the government that passed that law, and that he as a Native Commissioner could not do anything about it, he had no power, My Lord.

Lid the Kifaberley Branch then do something else? Then the Deputation went from there to see the 5

Minister himself. Is that the deputation which joined the big

demonstration here in Pretoria? Yos, My Lord, they joined others in the form of a deputation here in Pretoria. 10

You talked about the Kimberley Branch holding about two meetings a month in connection with Bantu .education, was it? Yes, My Lord.

And with regard to the other campaigns, was it the same? Yes, meetings were also held and discus- 15 sions also took place in regard to the other difficulties we had, My Lord.

How many people on an average spoke at these meetings? Usually four were delegated to speak officially on the platform, but then people from the gathering were given an opportunity or opportunities to speak from the gathering.

And were the police present at these meetings? Always, yes, My Lord.

Lid they take notes? Yes, as we speak they take notes.

Did the Kifaberley Branch hold any classes or lectures? No, My Lord, never.

Do you think such things are important? It was necessary, but it was never done at Kimberley.

Did the branch never get round to it? They

20

25

30

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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