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4/6/14, 11:46 AMDemocracy in need of emotion and confrontation | MO*

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NIEUWSNIEUWS Democracy in need of emotion andconfrontationAre last summer’s worldwide street protestations a prelude to the end of democracy, or just a sign that

civilians want to revitalize the political system? An interview with Chantal Mouffe, world-renowned

political scientist.

GIE GORIS - TRANSLATION BY BART COSYNS AND CHRISTOPHER DALEY . 4 NOVEMBER 2013

It was never hotter in Vienna in the past decades, so we had to open the window in an old house

in the Neubau-district in the Austrian capital. Street noises were thus resounding during our long

conversation about power, choices and emotion in politics. Street protests in Turkey, Brazil and

Egypt this summer were the very reason for this interview. But there were also demonstrations

in European countries where reforms and budget cuts were announced to save the population

from poverty. One of the recurring questions during these demonstrations is whether the people

still feel represented by their democratically elected leaders. Are the worldwide street

protestations a prelude to the end of democracy, or should they be interpreted as a sign that

civilians want to revitalize the political system? MO* asked Chantal Mouffe, born in Charleroi,

full professor in London and globally one of the most important academic voices in the debate on

democracy.

Chantal Mouffe is not willing to engage in a conversation that starts off on the wrong foot. The

Political scientist Chantal Mouffe Gie Goris

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protestations in Turkey, Brazil and Egypt have a very different nature. She would rather start

with the Greek protest movement, with the Spanish indignados and with the Occupy- movement:

these are for her the possible indications of a European democracy under threat. The strategy

applied by the indignados and Occupy raises questions, especially their refusal to cooperate with

parties, labour unions or other representative democratic institutions. According to Mouffe, this

exit strategy from the institutions offers no answer to the democratic deficit, which she defines as

a 'shortage of real alternatives'. The traditional political parties all adopted the same economic

model – the neoliberal consensus -, making it ever more difficult for citizens to believe that their

vote can actually make a difference. Especially the lower classes have lost their political voice as

socialist and social democrat parties shifted towards the centre. They migrated to the new

extreme right, which took over the role of anti-establishment party and defender of the common

people. 'The only efficient way to counter right-wing populism, would be to offer a successful left-

wing populism' says Mouffe.

How would you define 'populism'?How would you define 'populism'?

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: Populism is about finding a crowd around a political idea. The process of

shaping a 'we', necessarily involves the creation of a 'they'. Left and right wing populist parties

are not different in applying this principle, but they use other concept to define 'us' and 'them'.

Whereas right wing parties base their concept of 'the people' very much on the exclusion of

immigrants (notably from Islamic countries), left wing parties are mobilizing people against

banks, financial sector representatives and neoliberal globalization institutions. The main

challenge is to create the right synergies between social movements and political parties, because

each of them alone is not capable to enable the necessary fundamental reform of the political

system. The aim should be to restore the representative value of democracy, by introducing more

transparency and accountability.

In Turkey, Brazil and Egypt, governments were elected with clear majorities and withIn Turkey, Brazil and Egypt, governments were elected with clear majorities and with

clear programmes. And yet they too are confronted with massive protest movements.clear programmes. And yet they too are confronted with massive protest movements.

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: In Turkey, despite of the profound contrasts in society, there is no real option

to choose, because there is no credible opposition. Prime Minister Erdogan's AKP has easily won

the past three parliamentary elections.

Brazil is a completely different story. The protestations there started with a legitimate demand

for affordable public transport, a progressive demand. Dilma Roussef reacted positively to this

demand, but very soon right wing opposition groups were joining the protestations. This led the

Brazilian street protests to grow into large manifestations, aiming to bring down the government.

And it is clear that this government is not without mistakes. There have been serious problems

with corruption; large-scale agro-industry has deprived many people of their farming incomes

etc. The problem for Roussef is that her own party, the PT, never succeeded in obtaining a

majority, forcing it to govern in coalition with other parties. If Roussef proposes to organize a

referendum on certain reforms, she is being countered by her own government members or by



‘Left parties used to

advocate redistribution of

wealth, now they emphasize

the recognition of different

identities. This shift has not

parties of her majority. In this sense, the demonstrations could be a useful way to push the

government policy and reforms in the direction of what the people want.

If elections bring an Islamic party to power, as they did in Egypt, Turkey or Tunisia,If elections bring an Islamic party to power, as they did in Egypt, Turkey or Tunisia,

Western observers often refer to the nineteen thirties and to the experience of havingWestern observers often refer to the nineteen thirties and to the experience of having

totalitarian regimes elected. Do you share this concern?totalitarian regimes elected. Do you share this concern?

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: Yes, but in fact we should not look back to the German experience, but to the

Algerian case in the nineties. When the Front Islamique du Salut (FIS) was about to win the

elections, they were cancelled in order to prevent Islamists to be in charge. As a consequence, a

terrible and bloody civil war started, causing hundreds of thousands of casualties. Is that the

alternative? I fear that Egypt is moving in this direction, that al-Sisi aims to completely eliminate

and destroy the Muslim Brothers. And the Muslim Brothers are of course not prepared to just

give up on their electoral victory. In the meantime, more and more people died during the

confrontations between both sides and the country seems to be sliding towards an Algerian

scenario.

In your theory of a pluralist democracy with opposing political positions, you doIn your theory of a pluralist democracy with opposing political positions, you do

emphasize that there should be at least some shared values. In particular, you refer toemphasize that there should be at least some shared values. In particular, you refer to

freedom and equality for all. How did you come to this conclusion?freedom and equality for all. How did you come to this conclusion?

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: I assume that these values are at the core of the democratic practice that we

developed in Europe. But we need to realize that these values are constantly being interpreted in

a different and sometimes conflicting way. Are these democratic values universal values?

Perhaps, but they leave room for interpretation and different implementation. In Islamic

cultures, for instance, the community prevails over the individual. Thus, there is a different

relation between the freedom of the individual in a democracy and the interest of the

community.

Could you add social cohesion as one of the basic conditions for a functioningCould you add social cohesion as one of the basic conditions for a functioning

democracy?democracy?

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: Indeed, but on a different level than the ethical-political conditions. Social

cohesion is rather a sociological condition, not a value. In other words: if the gap between rich

and poor becomes too big, democracy risks to be threatened.

Social cohesion does not only relate to class differences, but also toSocial cohesion does not only relate to class differences, but also to

cultural differences. In the West, the equality of basic values is oftencultural differences. In the West, the equality of basic values is often

interpreted in a social-cultural way: non-discrimination based oninterpreted in a social-cultural way: non-discrimination based on

sexual preference, gender, origin etc.sexual preference, gender, origin etc.

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: The social democratic parties in Europe indeed shifted the

battle for social-economic equality to identity-based equality. Left parties

used to advocate redistribution of wealth, now emphasize the recognition of



been accepted by the lower

classes. They righteously

feel let down.’

different identities. This shift has not been accepted by the lower classes.

They righteously feel let down. I do not want to imply that these new forms

of equality and recognition are not important, but they should not just

replace social-economic equality.

Globalization led to increased competition at the bottom of society between

low-skilled people and newcomers. This phenomenon is not understood by the middle class as a

problem of inequality or as a lack of protection by the state, but as a problem of racism. Instead

of solidarity, the low-skilled workers are faced with ethical criticisms. We replaced the political

debate by the moralizations of the middle class. This 'progressive' attitude of course appeals to

the middle class, including its immigrant representatives, but leaves the votes of the lower classes

to parties like the Front National in France.

You claim that democracy is in need of emotion and confrontation, instead ofYou claim that democracy is in need of emotion and confrontation, instead of

rationality and consensus. And yet there are numerous examples that prove thatrationality and consensus. And yet there are numerous examples that prove that

emotional populist politics result in attempts to silencing and even eliminatingemotional populist politics result in attempts to silencing and even eliminating

opponents.opponents.

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: According to Spinoza, there are two main emotions: fear and hope. Right

parties nearly always use fear to mobilize voters. I think that left parties gain voters on the basis

of hope, sound projects for the future, alternatives to the establishment. Hope is rooted in justice,

in equality. It seems to me that an emotional engagement for more justice is not at all

problematic.

I am not advocating politics based on antagonism, but based on an own project, in full

recognition of the legitimate claims of the political opponents. That is what I call 'agonism'. After

years of unbridgeable differences in Northern Ireland, they succeeded in transforming from a

hostile, antagonist climate to a manageable, agonist conflict. The conflict did not disappear, but

the different parties recognize each other's institutions, rules and procedures, created to manage

this conflict. Probably this would also be the best thinkable solution of the Israeli-Palestinian

conflict.

The West-European consultation model may have removed emotion from politics, butThe West-European consultation model may have removed emotion from politics, but

it did bring prosperity and re-distribution of wealth.it did bring prosperity and re-distribution of wealth.

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: The social democracy was an attempt to make the conflict between labour and

capital 'manageable' or 'agonist'. By the end of the sixties, however, capital owners estimated that

the share of power and means they had to give in order to manage the underlying class conflict

was too important. So they just ignored the consultation process and its institutions. Since

Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, this neo-liberal tendency succeeded in gaining increasingly more

influence on the economic and political policy and, ultimately, to the imagination of people. Ideas

and convictions are a political construction: groups that want to come to power should ensure

that the public opinion finds their programme just and legitimate.



The neo-liberal domination of the political and public imagination even survived theThe neo-liberal domination of the political and public imagination even survived the

financial crash of 2008.financial crash of 2008.

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: It is clear that in 2008, a tremendous opportunity was wasted. The explanation

for this is that there no longer was an organized left wing. In many instances, left parties were

part of the system that suddenly collapsed. In the United Kingdom, Labour and notably Gordon

Brown had enabled the City's financial cannibalism to grow in the proportion that it did. In

France, privatizations were initiated under Lionel Jospin. You could hardly expect that the so-

called left wing parties would have an alternative ready for a policy that they had set up and

implemented. Right wing parties are now exploiting the available space the left was unable to

take in 2008 to eliminate the final remains of the welfare state.

Has it not become difficult to express a left project in the West, considering that theHas it not become difficult to express a left project in the West, considering that the

promise to a better life with more consumption and less work is – for a number ofpromise to a better life with more consumption and less work is – for a number of

reasons – no longer realistic? You cannot just ignore the climate change and the limitsreasons – no longer realistic? You cannot just ignore the climate change and the limits

to production and consumption?to production and consumption?

Chantal Mouffe:Chantal Mouffe: Sustainability as such is not a left theme; people who engage in a right societal

project can also be worried about the borders of growth and the future of our planet. A left

project for the future should comprise a mission to realize justice on an international level, and

requires a cultural and moral revolution. We should realize that the current development model,

driven by consumption, is not sustainable. Not only from an ecological point of view, but also

socially. We have enjoyed a high standard of living because people at the other side of the Globe

have produced our consumption goods in unacceptable conditions at unacceptable wages. The

recent Bangladesh disaster reminded us of this. We constantly want everything at cheaper prices.

Of course, this is impossible without increasing exploitation. Even left parties seem to be hesitant

to discuss this theme and explain to the public that we need to lower our life standard if a

sustainable and fair project for the future is what we want to realize.

Who is Chantal Mouffe?

Full Professor.Full Professor. Chantal Mouffe teaches political theory at the Centre for the Study of Democracy

at the University of Westminster, London. Before that, she worked at important universities in

the United States (Harvard, Cornell, Berkeley, Princeton) and in France (Centre National de la

Recherche Scientifique, Collège International de Philosophie).

Author.Author. This summer, she published Agonistics. Thinking the World Politically (Verso Books).

Other books: The Return of the Political (1993), The Democratic Paradox (2000) and On the

Political (2005).

Key word.Key word. Democracy is in need of true choice options and of institutions that can convert

power into policy. Not a consensus model, but a conflict model, enabling a manageable conflict

between opponents (agonism) instead of an out-of-control and irreparable enmity (antagonism).



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