14Customer SuccessCharles Warner

As you learned in Chapter 2, the mission of a media sales organization is to get customers and keep them, and the number-one objective is to get results for customers, or to make sure they are successful, which, of course, is the best way to keep them. The first five steps of missionary selling and the first four steps of service selling are focused on getting customers and only one step is focused on keeping them, and that step is customer success.

In the first four editions of Media Selling the final step in the selling process was referred to as servicing, but just as the internet and automation has disrupted and transformed other steps of selling, it has transformed the final step, too. The last step in both missionary and service selling is now called customer success because it parallels the name of the function or department in many forward-thinking companies, especially digital-era companies such as Apple and Amazon that are dedicated not to just satisfying customers, but to delighting them. It is no accident that Apple and Amazon, the two companies that by all accounts are the major companies most dedicated to putting customers first and delighting them, are the two most valuable companies in the world – the only two with market caps the have reached at one time or another in the last year and half of over $1 trillion.

Pre-digital-era sellingIn the pre-digital era many media salespeople, especially in local media,

were expected to both sell and service their accounts. The vast majority of media sales organizations, such as in local broadcasting and cable systems,

were modeled after manufacturing companies. Their organization charts, processes, and operating models were adopted from industrial-era companies in which performance measures were based on quantity and quality of output.i Therefore, salespeople in manufacturing companies and in broadcasting, cable systems, and most magazines were paid commissions that rewarded them for getting accounts, but not for keeping them. Because salespeople, not illogically, do what they are paid to do, it was usually not a priority to service accounts, or make sure they got results and were successful.

In the pre-digital era, advertisers negotiated and paid for available inventory on television networks, television stations, and top-rated radio stations based on the relative scarcity of that inventory. Advertisers paid high cost-per-thousands in major-market newspapers because in most cities, the newspapers had a monopoly and, thus, could charge, on a CPM basis, high premiums for ads, as could mass-market and upscale magazines. As Ken Auletta wrote in his book, Googled, in 2003, when Mel Karmazin was CEO of CBS, he said that advertisers “paid their money and took their chances.”ii

But when Google, then Facebook, and most digital advertising-supported platforms and publishers began taking responsibility for the success of their customers, it raised advertisers’ expectations. Legacy media such as television, radio, and cable systems, in order to survive needed to raise the level of their servicing to meet a much higher bar of customer expectations. Advertisers were no longer willing to “take their chances” when they invested in advertising. Advertisers wanted a clearly demonstrable return on their investment; they wanted results they could measure.

Selling an intangible serviceSelling media advertising is not like selling widgets made in a factory,

even though many pre-digital era media companies were organizationally

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modeled after manufacturing companies. The media offer a service – entertainment and information – not a product such as clothing or cars, and, as described in Chapter 2, services are intangible that require a different pre- and post-sale approach. Services differ in four fundamental ways from tangible products:

1. Services are like handshakes, because for a service to work, both the service provider and the consumer/customer have to participate. iii In the media, a medium creates content and the audience must participate in consuming that content, just as advertisers have to participate in the creation of the advertising.

2. Most services involve many interactions between buyer and seller. For example, when an ad agency or a medium creates an ad, both the agency/media and the client have to participate in the ad-creation process.iv

3. With services it is hard for customers to know in advance exactly what they are getting. For example, when investing in a search term purchase on Google, an advertiser does not know how many clicks it will get, or when paying for a visit to a doctor’s office, you do not know that the doctor can cure your cold.v

4. Customers of a service do not own what they paid for; they experience it. Customers cannot return a service like they can return a tangible product if it is defective. There is no market for used experiences.vi

Because of the above four differences of intangible services from tangible products, the benefits of services after they have been purchased must be tangibilized. Customers of services such as media, advertising, or insurance are typically not fully aware of all of the benefits these services provide and need to be reminded in the form of stewardship reports of some kind. For example, a General Manager of a television station might make a stewardship report at the end of a year to the CEO of a local bank that is the station’s largest advertiser. The

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stewardship report might include the number of commercials the bank ran, the number of contacts the station initiated with the bank that resulted in schedule improvements, copy improvements, content creation, and social media posts. The stewardship report might also contain the number of contacts the station initiated with the bank that included an analysis of social media likes, comments, and reviews that might also suggest a new approach or a new product that the bank might offer.

Digital-era serviceBecause of the popularity of the internet, as more and more data

became available about consumers and their preferences, those consumers began to expect a seamless, personalized experience from the start of the sales process to the finish of the process like they get from Apple or Amazon. Also, advertisers expected the sales, service, and marketing functions in a media organization to be engaged with them and not only to help them get results, to be successful, but also to give them insights into new product and selling opportunities that came from analyzing the mountains of data available about consumer behavior, attitudes, passions, and unmet wants.

Furthermore, because most media selling today now includes some element of digital advertising, ensuring that an advertising schedule gets results is complicated and time consuming, especially in regards to advertising creative executions. For example, during the 2016 presidential campaign, the psychometric consulting firm Cambridge Analytica handled a portion of Donald Trump’s digital advertising campaign on Facebook. “Pretty much every message that Trump put out was data driven,” Cambridge Analytica CEO Alexander Nix was quoted as saying in a January 28, 2017 article in online news site, Motherboard.vii “On the day of third presidential debate between Trump and Clinton, Trump’s team tested 175,000 different

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ad variations for his arguments in order to find the right version, above all on Facebook,” the authors of the Motherboard article write.1

One person or even 1,000 people could not test 175,000 different ad variations in a single day. The testing could only be done by automation, by sophisticated algorithms.

Digital-era pre-and post-sale processesWhat is needed to automate the complex pre- and post-sale process in the digital era?

First, management has to clearly define every step in the sales process for their media company. The pre-sale process is outlined in general terms in Chapter 8 in Exhibits 8.1 and 8.2, the Step Management process for missionary and service selling. The post-sale process must be similarly defined on a step-by-step basis so that it fits the unique needs of each media organization and each individual customer. For example, the post-sale process for a mid-sized market radio station might look something like that shown in Exhibit 14.1.

Exhibit 14.1 Radio station customer success checklist

Read contract or IO carefully to make sure all terms and conditions in the contract are understood and

followed, including start and end dates clearly noted.

Check to see that the traffic department has received advertising copy and copy rotation instructions from

advertiser or agency.

Check to make sure that the ad copy has been cleared as safe and acceptable.

Check to make sure that the proper copy is inserted into the station’s commercial log in the positions

indicated in the IO.

If the ad copy is to be read live, listen to each host’s or personality’s delivery of the copy. Is the copy being

read with product understanding, sincerity, and enthusiasm?

At the end of each week the schedule runs, check to see that the promised level of commercials or

impressions was delivered.

1 Due to revelations that Cambridge Analytics harvested the data of an estimated 87 million people on Facebook and violated Facebook’s privacy policies, the company closed on May 2, 2018 and started insolvency proceedings.

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At the end of each week that the schedule runs, check to see that it ran in the times put forth in the contract,

and suggest changes in the scheduling if a change is appropriate and reasonable.

Contact the customer’s representative in person or via email to see about results. Did results meet

expectations?

If a live read, did the customer hear the commercial, and, if so, any comments or suggestions.

Is the customer delighted with the wording of their commercials? If so, make some suggestions on ways to

improve the copy or delivery. If not, offer even more suggestions on ways to improve the copy and the

delivery. Does the copy need different wording, different positioning, or different offers?

Explore opportunities for improvement in the ad schedule’s placement and frequency level. Explore

opportunities for sponsorships, events, and promotions that might improve customer’s visibility, image, and

success.

Two weeks before the end of a schedule contact the customer and ask for a renewal and propose new

opportunities to improve results, visibility, image, engagement, and success.

A customer-success checklist for a schedule of digital advertising, for example, on ESPN.com, might be four times as long as the checklist in Exhibit 14.1, and would include not only constant vigilance in order to optimize multiple ad creative executions but also might include postings on social media such as Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

If you are curious why ESPN would post on social media on behalf of its clients, you need to understand that there are three types of media: paid, owned, and earned. Paid media is the same as advertising – an advertiser pays for media exposure such as ads on Google search results pages. Owned media refers to a company’s web properties such as a website, a mobile site, an app, a blog, or a page on Facebook or other social media platforms. Earned media refers to media that is shared, liked, re-posted or re-Tweeted, or reviewed online.viii For example, an advertiser such as Budweiser might invest in a sponsorship of an NFL Fantasy League on ESPN.com and run a commercial of a Clydesdale horse and a puppy on the Fantasy League site, also Budweiser would post the commercial on its company website, and put the commercial on YouTube for people to watch, share, like, and comment on – in other words, earn additional distribution for the commercial. To help make the commercial successful and gain as wide an audience as possible,

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the ESPN customer success department might post the commercial on ESPN’s Facebook page and in the Twitter feed for the Fantasy League. In other words, ESPN would try to boost the commercial’s distribution and popularity in earned media. ESPN would be making an effort to ensure customer success.

If you post on social media to increase earned media exposure for an advertiser, you have to make sure you inform your client about your effort and also tell them how many likes, comments, and reviews they got from your posts. It also reinforces your case if you can put an approximate monetary value on the earned media that was generated. This type of effort clearly tangilbilizes your service and your commitment to customer success.

Service DesignBecause of the complexity of selling and servicing digital advertising and the necessity of deliberately designing the pre- and post-sales process, the importance of service design has increased geometrically in the digital era. Tom Stewart and Patricia O’Connell write in their book, Woo, Wow, and Win: Service Design, Strategy, and the Art of Customer Delight:

Service design and delivery involve reimaging, recreating, and rethinking the execution of every stage and aspect of the customer and company interaction, regardless of what is being sold and regardless of whether a transaction actually occurs, to satisfy that customer and advance your strategic goals.ix

They also write that service design must be proactive, not reactive, and that it involves choices, actions, and consequences. It is about delivering on your promises to customers in accordance with your strategy, not about acceding to everything a customer requests. And “service design creates consistency, and consistency is no accident.”x Thus, the first rule of service design:

Rule #1: Consistency, consistency, and consistency.

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Consistency means that your customers can expect the same experience every time they interact with you. Consistency molds customers’ expectations, and consistency also means not surprising your customers, because surprising them too often confuses them. For example, think how you feel when you get an automated voice response when you call your doctor’s office, “Listen carefully because our options have changed.” You might feel confused and frustrated. A consistent experience keeps frustrations to a minimum.

Also, computers, algorithms, and AI are infinitely more consistent than human beings which is why virtually all sales organizations use customer-relationship-management (CRM) software or platforms such as Salesforce, the dominant CRM platform, or Efficio, used by many media organizations, or HubSpot, or many other CRM or sales productivity platforms. Automating repetitive tasks such as notifications of schedule changes or delivered impression levels can free salespeople for more important tasks that require a personal connection.

Rule #2: Automate everything but the hugs.

Automation and AI are much faster and better at doing repetitive, transactional work than humans are, so automate as much as possible, which will leave those responsible for customer success the time to make personal, emotional connections to customers. “Hugs” refers to empathetic, personalized responses to customers’ problems, complaints, and pain points, not necessarily physical hugs, although they might be appropriate in certain, rare situations.

Organizations have to be careful and not automate too many customer contacts and servicing tasks, and, rather than using too much artificial intelligence (AI), they need to use collaborative intelligence.xi Collaborative

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intelligence occurs when AI augments human workers instead of replacing them.

Companies see the biggest performance gains when humans and smart machines collaborate. People are needed to train machines, explain their output, and ensure their responsible use. AI, in turn, can enhance humans’ cognitive skills and creativity, free workers from low-level tasks, and extend their physical capabilities.xii

AI and automation also improves the consistency and reliability of customer service and allows for more personalized, empathetic responses, thus excellent, consistent service design can differentiate a company from its competitors, and profitably wow and win not just any customers, but the right customers, as defined by your company’s strategy, which leads us to the third rule of service design:

Rule #3: The customer is always right, if they are the right customer.xiii

The right customer is a profitable customer and a customer you are prepared to service in every sense – it is the customer you are targeting, not the other way around.xiv The right customer is also the customer you want to retain, because retaining customers is more profitable than getting them. Increasing customer retention rates by five percent “increases profits by 25 percent to 95 percent,” according the authors of Woo, Wow, and Win.xv

Designing the customer journeyWhether you are providing a low-cost solution such as programmatic buying on an open exchange, a middle-cost solution such as buying advertising programmatically on a private exchange, or a high-end solution of buying guaranteed placements through a salesperson, study after study has shown that the nature of the customer’s experience with a company is a key

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deciding factor in whether or not they choose to buy. As Stewart and O’Connell write in Woo, Wow, and Win, “Experiences matter. Experiences are journeys. Journeys are designed.”xvi An experience covers every touchpoint with a customer from the first contact in person or via email, to educating a prospect or agency, to negotiating and closing, to the purchase, to ensuring customer success, and to the renewal process. Every touchpoint must be designed so that they align with all other touchpoints and so that there is a seamless, integrated experience. Touchpoints must be also aligned among all of your organization’s strategic goals, your customers’ wants and needs, and what happens between you and your customer. The alignment is a function of 10 elements:xvii

1. Empathy. Did you develop a customer’s journey from the customer’s point of view? Did you put yourself in your customer’s shoes? Do you know how they walk?

2. Expectation. Do you know what your customers expect from you? If you are not sure, ask.

3. Emotion. Do you understand the emotions customers bring to the relationship? Are they fearful, anxious, or uncertain? Are they confident and happy to be a partner?

4. Elegance. Is your service process simple and easy to navigate and thorough?

5. Engagement. Do you communicate effectively at every touchpoint and understand customer’s experience and how to improve it?

6. Execution. Do you reliably meet all expectations?7. Engineering. Are your touchpoints technically excellent, up to date,

and equal to or better than what all of your competitors offer?8. Economics. Do our customers get the servicing they expect and do

you get the profits your company expects? 9. Experimentation. Do you build a process for improvement and

innovation into all of your interactions so that you can develop new and improved capabilities?

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10. Equivalence. Are you satisfied with the relationship? Both partners in a relationship must continue to be satisfied and happy with the relationship.

The above 10 points are adopted from SD2 Report Card in Woo, Wow, and Win, and emphasize that service design includes all of the touchpoints from start to finish of the sales process, and that service thinking must be holistic.xviii

Rule #4: Design the entire customer journey, not just parts of it, to delight customers.

Delighting customers means ensuring that they get results, that there are solutions to their marketing and advertising problems, and that they were delighted with the experience of dealing with you. Delight matters because, as Steward and O’Connell write in Woo, Wow, and Win:

1. Delight creates goodwill between you and your customer.2. Delight improves retention and customer value.3. Delight generates good word of mouth.4. Delight buys you a break.xix

The last point is an important one. Think back to your experience as a customer. Has someone you regularly buy from, such as Amazon, ever made an error? Did you forgive them because you had been delighted with all of your previous transactions? Giving a vendor a break because of past excellent service almost always leads to a repurchase, to a renewal.

And a fifth point about the importance of delighting customers comes from Brian Halligan, co-founder and CEO of HubSpot, a marketing and sales software company. He writes that, “Today…delighted customers are the biggest new driver of growth.”xx

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In today’s marketplace where both good and bad news about a product or service travels at the speed of light on social media and throughout the internet, a business must make sure that the news about it is good, that people are loyal fans, and are advocating for it. If the good news spreads via digital word-of-mouth (social media) and that news is generated by delighted customers, not by the company itself, the advocacy has more credibility than company advertising or patting itself on the back does, and, therefore, tends to generate both business growth and loyalty.

What are some of the elements that generate loyalty? In eMarketer’s “Behind the Numbers” podcast, digital strategist Chris Lundquist reported on an analysis he did of a collection of consumer surveys. Lundquist looked for data in the surveys that could answer the questions, “What really drives loyalty?”, “What really makes customers come back?”, and “What drives emotional connection to a product or service?”xxi The data showed that 85 percent of shoppers came back to a store, a product, or a service because of habit, and their habits were built on a trust that the product provided a solution that met their individual needs. This trust in a product’s solution is referred to as a solution premium, and a solution premium consists of five factors, according to Lundquist. Three of those factors apply to the customer success process in media selling:

1. Personalization. When a customer feels like a solution fits their individual needs, when they feel like a solution is relevant, or that an offer is just for them, it feels personal. Collaborative intelligence between AI and humans can be a big help in personalizing service and making customers feel like the solution and the service is uniquely for them.

2. Simplicity. Designing a service experience that is simple, convenient, and easy to navigate is essential in building loyalty ad customer delight.

3. Immediacy. When customers buy something, they want it now, or as close to now as possible. Google Ad Words (now Google Ads) allowed

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advertisers to get an ad up in minutes, and change copy as quickly, and, therefore, raised customers’ expectations accordingly. Your service response times need to speed up to meet your customers’ expectations.

Manage your whalesJust as whales are the largest creatures in the world’s oceans, often the largest advertising accounts are called whales. As a general rule of thumb, the Pareto Principle applies to clients of the media – 20 percent of the clients account for 80 percent of the advertising revenue. The good side of this revenue coin is that a media organization can focus its attention on super serving 20 percent of their most profitable clients, their whales, and not devoting too many resources to 80 percent of their less profitable accounts, thus being more efficient.

There are two parts of the bad side of the revenue coin. One is that losing a large account in the 20-percent group can be devastating to the financial health of a media organization. Many sales managers prefer to have a large number of mid-sized clients rather than a few very large ones, because the inevitable loss of a medium-sized account does not hurt as much as the loss of a large one, and medium-sized account can be replaced more easily than a large one.

Note that small accounts are not mentioned. Each media organization must have its own definition of a small account, but typically a small account is one that costs more to sell and service than the revenue it generates, or, in other words, is unprofitable.

The other part of the bad side of the revenue coin is that because whales are so vital to revenue, there is too often a tendency to do whatever it takes to keep these very large clients happy. Efforts to placate a whale can lead to disastrous price cuts and onerous concessions on terms and conditions. Very large clients are more than aware of their power and leverage, and often use their leverage to make unreasonable (and, of course,

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unprofitable) demands on price, conditions, and service requirements. This situation leads to the fifth rule of servicing:

Rule #5: Be careful about overfeeding the whales.

A partnership means that both partners want the other to be successful and profitable, which is the reason that you want to make all of your clients partners – you will look after their success and profitability and they will do likewise. If advertisers are not successful, they will not renew. If your media company is not profitable in the long term, it will not survive, which means that advertisers will have less choice and fewer selections for how to reach their customers.

It is vital to enter into partnerships with your clients and to delight them with superior service, because, as mentioned above, delighted partners are: (1) more than likely give you break when you inevitably make a mistake and (2) lead to growth because of recommendations to other clients, which leads us to the last servicing rule:

Rule #6: Handle mistakes and complaints immediately and honestly.

When mistakes happen, it is vital to contact a customer immediately, before the customer contacts you to complain about a missed ad, an undelivered sponsorship, or running the wrong copy. And when you notify a customer about an error or mistake, you should also tell them what you are doing to correct the mistake. Always offer a solution – a generous solution that aligns with your company’s overall customer-success strategy.

FeedbackYou are not finished with the customer-success process when you deliver on your promise to delight customers by giving them extraordinary service; you must continue the spiral of success by giving extraordinary service time and

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again, over and over, at every touchpoint of the sales and service cycle. In order to maintain consistency and to continually improve – what the Japanese refer to as kaizen – you must have honest feedback so you can refine and improve your customer success checklist.

Ed Koch was the mayor of New York City from 1978 to 1989, and was famous and beloved for continually asking, “How am I doing?” He wanted feedback, and not just positive feedback. I know because when I was V.P. and General Manager of WNBC-AM, NBC’s owned station in New York, one day in 1979 I was in my office and was shocked when my assistant came into my office with a wide-eyed, flustered expression and uttered, “Mayor Koch is here and would like to see you.” Of course, I jumped up as he came into my office, shook hands and motioned for him to sit down, which he did. The first words out of the mayor’s mouth were, “How am I doing?” I’m sure I stammered and said some positive things, but I also mentioned how tacky and messy 42nd Street near Times Square was. The mayor’s response was classic good listening. He said, “I’m glad you brought that up. A lot of people have told me they, too, are concerned about the environment around Times Square. And here’s what I’m going to do to fix it.” Mayor Koch was not defensive; he listened, understood my concern, and said he was working on a solution. He got feedback and handled it positively, not defensively.

And in the act of receiving my feedback, he delighted me. I was honored that the mayor wanted my input, was interested in my opinion, and just by asking for feedback, he boosted my opinion of him enormously. By asking your customers for feedback, you not only honor them and increase their positive attitude about you and your company, but you also get input into your sales and customer-success process and can iprove it.

Rule #7: Always get feedback from clients.

There are many ways of getting feedback, such as formalized customer satisfaction surveys conducted by independent research organizations or by

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your own company via email or an online survey platform such as Survey Monkey. Customer satisfaction surveys can be done yearly, quarterly, or directly after a major transaction, as is done when you interact with Apple customer support, for example.

As a general rule, you do not want to bother customers or buyers with too many surveys. Therefore, for most established media organizations, a yearly survey is sufficient, but for a startup, perhaps monthly would be better so adjustments can be made on a more timely basis. You can find an example of a Customer Satisfaction survey in the Downloads section of http://www.mediaselling.us.

Some media companies get customer feedback by having a top executive such as the CEO, Chief Revenue Officer, or head of sales contact major customers and ask the Ed Koch question, “How are we doing?” I prefer this informal, personal approach because: (1) it gives senior executives the opportunity to listen to customers and (2) it lets customers know that the company cares about their opinion concerning the kind of service they are getting. Too many top media executives do not have a clear sense of how their companies are perceived by those customers and buyers who deal on an everyday basis with salespeople.

But whatever the timing, whatever the format, and no matter who does the customer satisfaction surveys, some sort of customer feedback is vital for every organization so they have a strategic, effective, ever-improving customer service design that looks after their customers’ success.

Test Yourself1. What are the four ways that intangible services differ from tangible

products?2. What are three types of media?3. What are the reasons why delighting customers matter?4. What is the rule about managing whales?5. What are the three factors of a solution premium?6. What is the Ed Koch question?

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ProjectThe next time you go into a retail store – a Best Buy, a department store, a Staples, or any store that is not self-serve and that has salespeople – ask a salesperson on the floor a simple question such as, “Where do I find flash drives?” Pay attention to the answer you get and to the person’s attitude, demeanor, friendliness, and helpfulness. Were you delighted with the treatment you received? Would you recommend to your friends that they shop at the retailer because of the wonderful service you received? If the answer to these questions is “no,” write down some notes about how you would improve the store’s service design.

ReferencesStewart, Thomas A. and O’Connell, Patricia. 2016. Woo, Wow, and Win:

Service Design, Strategy, and the Art of Customer Delight. Harper Business.

Resourceshttps://efficiosolutions.com. (Efficio, Media Sales Management CRM, yield, and

proposal software)https://www.salesforce.com. (Salesforce)https://hubspot.com (Hubspot) https://www.surveymonkey.com (Survey Monkey)https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/behind-the-numbers/e/. (eMarketer’s

“Behind the Numbers” podcast)

Notes

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i Stewart, Thomas A. and O’Connell, Patricia. 2016. Woo, Wow, and Win: Service Design, Strategy, and the Art of Customer Delight. Harper Business.

ii Auletta, Ken. 2009. Googled: The End of the World As We Know It. Penguin Press.iii Ibid.iv Ibid.v Ibid.vi Ibid.vii Grassegger, Hannes and Krogerus, Mikahel. 2017. “The Data That Turned the Word Upside

Down.” Retrieved from https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mg9vvn/how-our-like-helped-trump-win.

viii Garman, Erica. 2018. “What Is Earned, Owned, and Paid Media? The Difference Explained.” Retrieved from https://www.titangrowth.com/what-is-earned-owned-paid-media-the-difference-explained/.

ix Stewart, Thomas A. and O’Connell, Patricia. 2016. Woo, Wow, and Win: Service Design, Strategy, and the Art of Customer Delight. Harper Business.

x Ibid.xi Wilson, James and Dugherty, Paul R. 2018. “Collaborative Intelligence: Humans and AI Are Joining Forces. Harvard

Business Review. July-August.xii Ibid.xiii Stewart, Thomas A. and O’Connell, Patricia. 2016. Woo, Wow, and Win: Service Design,

Strategy, and the Art of Customer Delight. Harper Business.xiv Ibid.xv Ibid.xvi Ibid.xvii Ibid.xviii Ibid. xix Ibid.xx Halligan, Brian. 2018. “Replacing the Sales Funnel with the Sales Flywheel.” Retrieved from https://hbr.org/2018/11/replacing-the-sales-funnel-with-the-sales-flywheel. xxi “What Truly Motivates Customer Loyalty? An Interview with Digital Strategist Chris Lundquist.” “Behind the Numbers” podcast. Retrieved from https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/behind-the-numbers/5741432.